1 00:00:10,327 --> 00:00:14,927 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma mea podcast. Mamma Mere acknowledges the 2 00:00:14,967 --> 00:00:17,727 Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is 3 00:00:17,767 --> 00:00:24,447 Speaker 1: recorded on Hello and welcome to Mamma Me. Are out loud? 4 00:00:24,447 --> 00:00:27,127 Speaker 1: What women are actually talking about? On Wednesday, the twenty 5 00:00:27,167 --> 00:00:29,967 Speaker 1: third of October, I am Holly Wainwright. 6 00:00:29,647 --> 00:00:32,527 Speaker 2: I am Jesse Stevens, and I'm and Vernon filling in 7 00:00:32,527 --> 00:00:35,007 Speaker 2: for me today. You might have heard me on our 8 00:00:35,127 --> 00:00:36,927 Speaker 2: daily entertainment podcast The Spill. 9 00:00:37,247 --> 00:00:40,727 Speaker 1: On the show today Britney Spears's latest wedding and the 10 00:00:40,847 --> 00:00:43,807 Speaker 1: rise of sologamy. Don't know what that is? That's fine, 11 00:00:43,927 --> 00:00:48,567 Speaker 1: we'll explain. Also, has the US exported its abortion politics 12 00:00:48,647 --> 00:00:51,847 Speaker 1: all the way to Australia this week? It seems yes? 13 00:00:52,407 --> 00:00:56,687 Speaker 1: And why women clean? The answer apparently is much more 14 00:00:56,687 --> 00:01:01,367 Speaker 1: complicated than well, someone has to. But first, Jesse Stevens. 15 00:01:01,127 --> 00:01:04,527 Speaker 3: In case you missed it, you have to change your passwords. Holly, 16 00:01:04,567 --> 00:01:06,207 Speaker 3: I'm mostly probably talking to you. 17 00:01:06,207 --> 00:01:07,767 Speaker 1: You are very much talking to me. 18 00:01:07,887 --> 00:01:09,447 Speaker 3: You just see you got to change your password. A 19 00:01:09,487 --> 00:01:14,687 Speaker 3: cybersecurity expert who investigates criminal hacking methods named Joe Cockroft 20 00:01:14,927 --> 00:01:21,087 Speaker 3: says he knows your password is probably password or one two, three, four, five, six, 21 00:01:21,167 --> 00:01:24,847 Speaker 3: and you're gonna get hacked. Even worse, you probably have 22 00:01:24,967 --> 00:01:29,287 Speaker 3: the same password across multiple platforms, meaning a hacker could 23 00:01:29,287 --> 00:01:32,047 Speaker 3: access your bank account, your eCloud, and all your social 24 00:01:32,047 --> 00:01:32,847 Speaker 3: media platforms. 25 00:01:32,927 --> 00:01:36,207 Speaker 4: Oh, that's none of my business. 26 00:01:35,807 --> 00:01:36,647 Speaker 5: You do, you hacker. 27 00:01:37,167 --> 00:01:40,047 Speaker 3: Apparently hackers have a list of thousands of words that 28 00:01:40,087 --> 00:01:43,247 Speaker 3: they think are probably your password, and they can glean 29 00:01:43,287 --> 00:01:46,327 Speaker 3: it from social media, like your pet's name, your phone number, 30 00:01:46,527 --> 00:01:48,327 Speaker 3: or the sporting team you support. 31 00:01:49,127 --> 00:01:50,647 Speaker 1: So so scared you're going to say one of my 32 00:01:50,727 --> 00:01:54,367 Speaker 1: actual pastor because this is tricky this segment, because we 33 00:01:54,407 --> 00:01:57,567 Speaker 1: obviously need to react towards Jesse's saying without actually giving 34 00:01:57,567 --> 00:01:58,487 Speaker 1: away our password. 35 00:01:58,607 --> 00:02:01,087 Speaker 5: Shop you have to go what people have password one 36 00:02:01,087 --> 00:02:01,807 Speaker 5: two three. 37 00:02:02,087 --> 00:02:03,527 Speaker 1: People use their pets name. 38 00:02:03,847 --> 00:02:05,607 Speaker 5: Oh my goodness. 39 00:02:06,087 --> 00:02:09,807 Speaker 3: So this was UK based and what they had was 40 00:02:10,047 --> 00:02:13,327 Speaker 3: password quirty, which is just the first line of your 41 00:02:13,527 --> 00:02:17,647 Speaker 3: keyboard ABC one two three. Very popular and football team 42 00:02:17,727 --> 00:02:20,767 Speaker 3: so Liverpool or Arsenal. What was interesting here is they've 43 00:02:20,767 --> 00:02:22,647 Speaker 3: not even tried to do an exclamation mark. It's just 44 00:02:22,727 --> 00:02:26,487 Speaker 3: a Liverpool. But in Australia, some of the most common 45 00:02:26,527 --> 00:02:29,647 Speaker 3: passwords include Michael or Charlie. 46 00:02:29,847 --> 00:02:30,487 Speaker 5: If you want to. 47 00:02:30,447 --> 00:02:33,167 Speaker 4: Know Michaels and Charlie's everywhere few. 48 00:02:33,207 --> 00:02:34,007 Speaker 5: The big dumb dumbs. 49 00:02:34,047 --> 00:02:36,727 Speaker 3: If you know, Michael, just go mate, get it a 50 00:02:36,767 --> 00:02:37,967 Speaker 3: little more more creative. 51 00:02:38,487 --> 00:02:40,207 Speaker 5: Or Star Wars twenty nine. 52 00:02:40,327 --> 00:02:43,167 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that would be Brent. No, you just 53 00:02:43,207 --> 00:02:45,487 Speaker 1: give me inspiration of how to hack into alve Brett's 54 00:02:45,527 --> 00:02:46,607 Speaker 1: private accounts. 55 00:02:48,127 --> 00:02:50,487 Speaker 3: So we surveyed the out louders about how often they 56 00:02:50,607 --> 00:02:53,727 Speaker 3: change their password, and you're fine, It's interesting the people 57 00:02:53,767 --> 00:02:55,887 Speaker 3: who just are changing their password because they know that 58 00:02:55,927 --> 00:02:59,927 Speaker 3: it's an important security thing. One percent, sixty nine percent 59 00:03:00,007 --> 00:03:02,327 Speaker 3: of people are changing their password, but only because they 60 00:03:02,367 --> 00:03:04,647 Speaker 3: forgot the password that they did before. 61 00:03:04,687 --> 00:03:05,807 Speaker 5: With all the exclamations, you know. 62 00:03:05,807 --> 00:03:08,047 Speaker 4: How that one percent would have been who Luke Levine? 63 00:03:09,767 --> 00:03:12,807 Speaker 3: That is Luca going, oh yes, I said a weekly 64 00:03:12,847 --> 00:03:15,847 Speaker 3: reminder that I should change all my passwords because apparently 65 00:03:15,927 --> 00:03:17,807 Speaker 3: what you're meant to do is either have a password 66 00:03:17,807 --> 00:03:20,487 Speaker 3: manager which saves them all, which I'm like, can't that 67 00:03:20,567 --> 00:03:20,967 Speaker 3: be hacked? 68 00:03:20,967 --> 00:03:21,967 Speaker 5: But I don't know enough. 69 00:03:22,167 --> 00:03:24,527 Speaker 3: The IT guy right now is screaming at me being like, 70 00:03:24,607 --> 00:03:28,167 Speaker 3: Noah can't. And the other thing is do the verification 71 00:03:28,367 --> 00:03:30,287 Speaker 3: where you get your pass code sent to your phone. 72 00:03:30,807 --> 00:03:33,367 Speaker 3: That's the other thing you're meant to do. The longer 73 00:03:33,407 --> 00:03:36,967 Speaker 3: the better, apparently, and symbols and numbers and all that 74 00:03:37,007 --> 00:03:37,927 Speaker 3: kind of stuff, But don't we. 75 00:03:37,927 --> 00:03:38,407 Speaker 5: Just do that? 76 00:03:38,927 --> 00:03:41,727 Speaker 3: And then we go to my GUV the next time 77 00:03:41,927 --> 00:03:43,367 Speaker 3: and my GUV says, what's your password? 78 00:03:43,367 --> 00:03:46,407 Speaker 5: And you're like, no, one, no, fucking I don't understand. 79 00:03:46,447 --> 00:03:48,327 Speaker 1: It's like, sure if you use a password manager, but 80 00:03:48,367 --> 00:03:50,207 Speaker 1: I find that confusing because you have to remember the 81 00:03:50,207 --> 00:03:51,647 Speaker 1: password to your password manager. 82 00:03:52,007 --> 00:03:54,607 Speaker 4: But also how are the people who. 83 00:03:54,447 --> 00:03:56,607 Speaker 1: Are changing their passwords every week remembering? 84 00:03:56,847 --> 00:03:58,887 Speaker 3: Because then I try and change my password, but then 85 00:03:58,887 --> 00:04:00,487 Speaker 3: I write it in my notes, SAP, and I feel 86 00:04:00,487 --> 00:04:01,607 Speaker 3: like that's not good security. 87 00:04:01,927 --> 00:04:04,327 Speaker 1: No no, And then you sometimes try and get really 88 00:04:04,527 --> 00:04:07,327 Speaker 1: smart and try and disguise what it is. Instead of 89 00:04:07,447 --> 00:04:13,207 Speaker 1: bank you might say, like Shank, what. 90 00:04:13,087 --> 00:04:16,367 Speaker 2: I hate is when you forget your password and you 91 00:04:16,447 --> 00:04:18,967 Speaker 2: tell the computer whatever you're trying to log into thing 92 00:04:18,967 --> 00:04:21,287 Speaker 2: forgot my passwords, and I like, reset the past. I'm like, okay, 93 00:04:21,367 --> 00:04:23,127 Speaker 2: reset the password, and they're like, you can't use an 94 00:04:23,167 --> 00:04:23,807 Speaker 2: old password? 95 00:04:24,047 --> 00:04:26,087 Speaker 4: What do you mean you told me I forgot? 96 00:04:26,127 --> 00:04:28,927 Speaker 1: This part is I know this is all very important, 97 00:04:29,087 --> 00:04:31,247 Speaker 1: you know, security, but do you remember when Amelia Lester 98 00:04:31,407 --> 00:04:33,167 Speaker 1: told you the other week that there was just a 99 00:04:33,247 --> 00:04:35,567 Speaker 1: slow was it called the shitification of sperification? 100 00:04:35,647 --> 00:04:37,487 Speaker 5: I keep I from saying it everywhere. 101 00:04:37,127 --> 00:04:41,127 Speaker 1: Like internet security is part of that because like constantly 102 00:04:41,207 --> 00:04:42,967 Speaker 1: having to be I had to do this yesterday there 103 00:04:42,967 --> 00:04:45,607 Speaker 1: was a specific streaming service I wanted to watch a 104 00:04:45,647 --> 00:04:48,967 Speaker 1: show on, couldn't remember my passwords, wasn't letting me in. 105 00:04:49,287 --> 00:04:51,287 Speaker 1: Called Brent. He was at home, He couldn't remember what. 106 00:04:51,447 --> 00:04:55,607 Speaker 1: I just started a whole new account from like and 107 00:04:55,647 --> 00:04:57,647 Speaker 1: then I'm like, at some point I'll sort out the 108 00:04:57,687 --> 00:05:00,447 Speaker 1: pavements for that, but like, I'm just starting again. Scorched it, 109 00:05:00,687 --> 00:05:03,607 Speaker 1: Let's go. It's the stification of everything because I spent 110 00:05:03,727 --> 00:05:05,807 Speaker 1: half my life going forgot password. 111 00:05:06,687 --> 00:05:08,687 Speaker 5: There's already an account link to this email. 112 00:05:08,767 --> 00:05:12,287 Speaker 1: Well, I don't know where that is. Let's start a 113 00:05:12,327 --> 00:05:16,407 Speaker 1: new email for your cat. That'll take me ten minutes. 114 00:05:23,127 --> 00:05:26,927 Speaker 2: Britney Spears has posted a video of herself to Instagram. 115 00:05:27,167 --> 00:05:30,167 Speaker 2: She's wearing a wedding dress with a whole veil in everything, 116 00:05:30,407 --> 00:05:33,487 Speaker 2: and she's doing some cutesy poses for the camera. The 117 00:05:33,527 --> 00:05:37,127 Speaker 2: caption of this post reads the Day I married myself. 118 00:05:37,327 --> 00:05:40,287 Speaker 2: Bringing it back because it might seem embarrassing or stupid, 119 00:05:40,447 --> 00:05:43,767 Speaker 2: but I think it's the most brilliant thing I've ever done. 120 00:05:43,927 --> 00:05:44,607 Speaker 1: Oh Britney. 121 00:05:44,927 --> 00:05:48,407 Speaker 2: So it's unclear whether or not she's actually married herself, 122 00:05:48,487 --> 00:05:51,087 Speaker 2: but it is a thing. Marrying yourself is a thing. 123 00:05:51,247 --> 00:05:54,207 Speaker 2: It's called sologamy, and it's the idea that you marry 124 00:05:54,247 --> 00:05:57,887 Speaker 2: yourself to live a fulfilling life as a sologamist. So 125 00:05:58,167 --> 00:06:00,807 Speaker 2: there are actual people who've done this. A PR consultant 126 00:06:00,927 --> 00:06:03,767 Speaker 2: named Sophie Tanner has done this, and she said that 127 00:06:03,807 --> 00:06:06,967 Speaker 2: it's a way of her showing that she loves herself 128 00:06:07,007 --> 00:06:09,767 Speaker 2: and celebrating herself the same way that married people can 129 00:06:09,807 --> 00:06:12,967 Speaker 2: celebrate themselves. So it's like the ceremony around it. It's 130 00:06:12,967 --> 00:06:15,607 Speaker 2: not technically legal, which means you can have fun with 131 00:06:15,647 --> 00:06:17,727 Speaker 2: it and do whatever you want. But it's a way 132 00:06:17,847 --> 00:06:21,247 Speaker 2: of your family and friends recognizing yourself and the love 133 00:06:21,287 --> 00:06:25,407 Speaker 2: that you have for yourself as a single person. This 134 00:06:25,687 --> 00:06:29,727 Speaker 2: is the worst time of year to find out about slogamy. 135 00:06:30,607 --> 00:06:32,647 Speaker 2: Why do you remember? I think it was a few 136 00:06:32,647 --> 00:06:34,527 Speaker 2: weeks ago. The two of you and me are talked 137 00:06:34,567 --> 00:06:37,967 Speaker 2: about cuffing season, yes, and how everyone's kind of coupling 138 00:06:38,047 --> 00:06:40,887 Speaker 2: up now during their like no one is more aware 139 00:06:41,047 --> 00:06:44,647 Speaker 2: of cuffing season than the single person. I see it everywhere, 140 00:06:44,687 --> 00:06:48,327 Speaker 2: and it's always October. October is the time of year 141 00:06:48,407 --> 00:06:52,567 Speaker 2: where everyone who's single ends up in a situationship because 142 00:06:53,127 --> 00:06:55,327 Speaker 2: everyone's thinking about it's the end of year. I'm gonna 143 00:06:55,327 --> 00:06:57,727 Speaker 2: have to see family, I'm gonna go have to visit people. 144 00:06:57,847 --> 00:07:00,487 Speaker 2: My family's gonna ask me, are you seeing anyone? You 145 00:07:00,487 --> 00:07:02,287 Speaker 2: have to say yes so they get off your back. 146 00:07:02,367 --> 00:07:04,767 Speaker 2: So you end up being in a situationship. Then you 147 00:07:04,807 --> 00:07:06,487 Speaker 2: have those like in between days where you're like, I'm 148 00:07:06,487 --> 00:07:08,927 Speaker 2: not really sure what I'm doing between Christmas and New Years, 149 00:07:09,287 --> 00:07:11,007 Speaker 2: And then you have New Years and you're like, actually, 150 00:07:11,047 --> 00:07:14,047 Speaker 2: I don't want this relationship, so I feel like it's 151 00:07:14,087 --> 00:07:15,967 Speaker 2: a new year, and you me, I need to start fresh. 152 00:07:16,167 --> 00:07:17,367 Speaker 5: You've spent too much time in there. 153 00:07:17,567 --> 00:07:19,127 Speaker 2: And then you haven't seen them in a month because 154 00:07:19,127 --> 00:07:21,287 Speaker 2: you're with family, and then it's nearly like the end 155 00:07:21,367 --> 00:07:23,487 Speaker 2: of jam. But you can't move into February because it's 156 00:07:23,527 --> 00:07:26,167 Speaker 2: Valentine's Day. You can't break up with someone before Valentine's Day, 157 00:07:26,247 --> 00:07:28,407 Speaker 2: complex so you break up on the thirty first of 158 00:07:28,487 --> 00:07:30,927 Speaker 2: January after getting together in October. 159 00:07:31,247 --> 00:07:34,527 Speaker 3: You do so I mean, this feels quite nihilistic, which 160 00:07:34,567 --> 00:07:38,487 Speaker 3: makes me wonder, are you thinking of just going full slogamists. 161 00:07:37,927 --> 00:07:42,527 Speaker 1: And turning up to family events? I come, I married myself? 162 00:07:42,887 --> 00:07:44,607 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, because like, how else will I get a 163 00:07:44,607 --> 00:07:47,247 Speaker 2: wedding gift? Like, how are you getting wedding gifts? 164 00:07:47,247 --> 00:07:47,527 Speaker 4: Holly? 165 00:07:47,727 --> 00:07:49,967 Speaker 1: Look, I'm not And this is one of the things 166 00:07:49,967 --> 00:07:52,127 Speaker 1: I want to write an angry letter to somebody there. 167 00:07:52,927 --> 00:07:55,327 Speaker 1: So I went deep on the slogamists and the marrying 168 00:07:55,367 --> 00:07:58,287 Speaker 1: yourself thing because I think it's easy to kind of 169 00:07:59,527 --> 00:08:01,447 Speaker 1: mock it a little bit and laugh at it, because 170 00:08:01,447 --> 00:08:03,847 Speaker 1: there are actually loads of people who've done this. There 171 00:08:03,847 --> 00:08:06,087 Speaker 1: are loads of people who've done it. The first person 172 00:08:06,087 --> 00:08:07,807 Speaker 1: who did it that we know about is a woman 173 00:08:07,847 --> 00:08:10,927 Speaker 1: called Linda Baker in America. It in nineteen ninety three, right, 174 00:08:11,287 --> 00:08:13,167 Speaker 1: and since then it's become a bit of a thing 175 00:08:13,247 --> 00:08:16,447 Speaker 1: and women, it's always women apparently are doing it as 176 00:08:16,487 --> 00:08:19,407 Speaker 1: an act of self love. But also and I love 177 00:08:19,447 --> 00:08:22,087 Speaker 1: the refreshing honesty in this. There was a woman who 178 00:08:22,167 --> 00:08:26,007 Speaker 1: was India's first sologamist bride, saying she always wanted to 179 00:08:26,087 --> 00:08:28,927 Speaker 1: be a bride, but not a wife or Holly English 180 00:08:28,967 --> 00:08:31,287 Speaker 1: the Australian woman who did it a few years ago, 181 00:08:31,567 --> 00:08:33,807 Speaker 1: who said she'd always wanted a wedding. She said, I've 182 00:08:33,807 --> 00:08:36,127 Speaker 1: now accepted I might never find a partner, and I'm happy, 183 00:08:36,127 --> 00:08:38,367 Speaker 1: but I always wanted a wedding, right, And why should 184 00:08:38,407 --> 00:08:41,447 Speaker 1: weddings and the party, in the gifts and the dress 185 00:08:41,447 --> 00:08:44,487 Speaker 1: and that all everyone comes together only be for the 186 00:08:44,527 --> 00:08:46,927 Speaker 1: coupled up. So there's that reason to do it right. 187 00:08:47,007 --> 00:08:49,887 Speaker 1: That can feel a little bit passag like that famous 188 00:08:50,167 --> 00:08:52,807 Speaker 1: Sex and the City episode where she's like, where are 189 00:08:52,847 --> 00:08:55,367 Speaker 1: my baby shower gifts? Where are my engagement presents? Somebody 190 00:08:55,367 --> 00:08:57,167 Speaker 1: should buy me a pair of shoes. So that feels 191 00:08:57,207 --> 00:09:00,847 Speaker 1: a bit passag But I also think on a more 192 00:09:00,927 --> 00:09:04,727 Speaker 1: sort of positive note, it speaks to the fact that 193 00:09:04,807 --> 00:09:06,647 Speaker 1: as women have got more choice than ever about how 194 00:09:06,647 --> 00:09:10,047 Speaker 1: they live, we still have very few ways to celebrate 195 00:09:10,207 --> 00:09:12,607 Speaker 1: women who aren't following the normal script, which is like 196 00:09:12,687 --> 00:09:15,127 Speaker 1: get engaged, get married, then have a baby, then da 197 00:09:15,167 --> 00:09:17,687 Speaker 1: da da da, and have all these like milestones that 198 00:09:17,727 --> 00:09:21,407 Speaker 1: we accept are things to celebrate. We haven't yet figured 199 00:09:21,447 --> 00:09:25,127 Speaker 1: out how we celebrate women who aren't following that path, 200 00:09:25,247 --> 00:09:27,887 Speaker 1: And so I reckon that this is a great thing. 201 00:09:28,167 --> 00:09:32,647 Speaker 3: I totally respect that reading, and I can see how 202 00:09:32,687 --> 00:09:36,167 Speaker 3: even for Britney Spears, it could be healing. She's clearly 203 00:09:36,247 --> 00:09:39,887 Speaker 3: had some experiences in the past with marriages that haven't worked, 204 00:09:40,367 --> 00:09:42,927 Speaker 3: and it could be seen as sort of a radical 205 00:09:42,967 --> 00:09:45,127 Speaker 3: feminist act. And I see that with a few of 206 00:09:45,127 --> 00:09:49,447 Speaker 3: the examples. But another part of me worries that this 207 00:09:49,567 --> 00:09:53,247 Speaker 3: is belonging to a bit of a shift where we're 208 00:09:53,367 --> 00:09:55,967 Speaker 3: kidding ourselves into thinking we don't need anyone like and 209 00:09:56,007 --> 00:09:58,407 Speaker 3: I don't mean romantically, I just mean broadly. 210 00:09:58,847 --> 00:10:00,287 Speaker 5: So with the. 211 00:10:00,287 --> 00:10:07,047 Speaker 3: Rise of introversion and toxicity and boundaries and therapy speek 212 00:10:07,127 --> 00:10:11,327 Speaker 3: and a lot of people are living alone, I worry 213 00:10:11,367 --> 00:10:14,567 Speaker 3: that we're deluding ourselves into thinking we can live as 214 00:10:14,607 --> 00:10:17,167 Speaker 3: islands when that isn't good for us. 215 00:10:17,247 --> 00:10:19,087 Speaker 1: But this is just a wedding, and a wedding is 216 00:10:19,127 --> 00:10:22,087 Speaker 1: actually an act of connection, right, Like you invite people, 217 00:10:22,407 --> 00:10:24,247 Speaker 1: then they're all there. That's one of things everyone loves 218 00:10:24,247 --> 00:10:26,527 Speaker 1: about weddings, right is they're like, all my people are here, 219 00:10:26,607 --> 00:10:30,287 Speaker 1: all my friends, my family, and I'm connecting and celebrating. Right, Yes, 220 00:10:30,407 --> 00:10:33,527 Speaker 1: So that argument that you're putting forward is about singled 221 00:10:33,567 --> 00:10:34,607 Speaker 1: and broadly. 222 00:10:34,607 --> 00:10:37,207 Speaker 3: Right, it's not even about singleedom because I think that 223 00:10:37,247 --> 00:10:39,527 Speaker 3: you can be highly connected and single, yeah, and I 224 00:10:39,567 --> 00:10:42,527 Speaker 3: think you can be very lonely and coupled yeap. But 225 00:10:42,767 --> 00:10:47,647 Speaker 3: there's this kind of go girl feminism thing or it's 226 00:10:47,847 --> 00:10:50,327 Speaker 3: disguised as feminism that I see online, which is sort 227 00:10:50,327 --> 00:10:54,887 Speaker 3: of like, you don't need anyone self love, isn't it. 228 00:10:54,807 --> 00:10:57,807 Speaker 1: More, you don't need a partner, you don't need a 229 00:10:57,887 --> 00:11:00,927 Speaker 1: romantic partner because to be honest with that one in 230 00:11:01,007 --> 00:11:03,327 Speaker 1: sound like Debbie Downer and this like marriage hasn't always 231 00:11:03,367 --> 00:11:05,567 Speaker 1: been great for lots of women, nor hasn't. So the 232 00:11:05,687 --> 00:11:08,607 Speaker 1: freedom to be able to opt out of that and say, 233 00:11:08,727 --> 00:11:10,767 Speaker 1: maybe I'm not going to marry, maybe I'm never gonna 234 00:11:10,807 --> 00:11:12,647 Speaker 1: be partnered, maybe I'm going to live my life on 235 00:11:12,687 --> 00:11:15,647 Speaker 1: my terms. It doesn't mean that that person is going 236 00:11:15,727 --> 00:11:18,887 Speaker 1: to be lonely disconnected. That's not what it means. 237 00:11:19,007 --> 00:11:22,967 Speaker 3: Something about and look, the whole marriage industry, wedding industry 238 00:11:23,087 --> 00:11:25,527 Speaker 3: is something that you know, we've criticized a lot on 239 00:11:25,567 --> 00:11:27,687 Speaker 3: this show, and I completely agree with all of it. 240 00:11:28,127 --> 00:11:31,047 Speaker 3: But there's something about the connection of two people and 241 00:11:31,087 --> 00:11:35,327 Speaker 3: the connection of two families that I feel like weddings 242 00:11:35,407 --> 00:11:39,807 Speaker 3: or marriages are about and I think I bristle whenever 243 00:11:40,327 --> 00:11:43,327 Speaker 3: the self love thing comes up. There's something because I 244 00:11:43,367 --> 00:11:47,727 Speaker 3: feel like there's something narcissistic about it. I feel as 245 00:11:47,767 --> 00:11:52,527 Speaker 3: though you can love oneself too much. But don't you think, Jesse, 246 00:11:52,687 --> 00:11:54,327 Speaker 3: that we worship oneself too much? 247 00:11:54,367 --> 00:11:57,527 Speaker 1: But don't you think, Jesse, that we're always telling people 248 00:11:57,647 --> 00:12:00,487 Speaker 1: that self love is the most important thing for their 249 00:12:00,767 --> 00:12:03,887 Speaker 1: mental health and their stability. And yet at the same time, 250 00:12:04,047 --> 00:12:06,647 Speaker 1: we tell people, women in particular, that they are incomplete 251 00:12:06,727 --> 00:12:09,167 Speaker 1: unless they have a partner. Right, That's the cultural narrative 252 00:12:09,247 --> 00:12:12,927 Speaker 1: that we're all swimming in, is like, Yeah, you've got 253 00:12:12,967 --> 00:12:15,087 Speaker 1: to love yourself otherwise no one else will love you. 254 00:12:15,127 --> 00:12:17,807 Speaker 1: That's basically the point. It's like, love yourself with the 255 00:12:17,847 --> 00:12:19,327 Speaker 1: aim of someone else loving you. 256 00:12:19,847 --> 00:12:21,887 Speaker 5: But that roma's always been the wrong word. 257 00:12:22,047 --> 00:12:25,887 Speaker 1: But that intense focus on romantic love being the only 258 00:12:26,607 --> 00:12:31,607 Speaker 1: true way to happiness is just disproven all the time. Yeah, 259 00:12:32,087 --> 00:12:35,247 Speaker 1: what about you? Are you going to do it? How 260 00:12:35,247 --> 00:12:37,167 Speaker 1: do you feel about it when you see these women? 261 00:12:37,527 --> 00:12:41,447 Speaker 1: Do you feel go girly? Like? What's your vibe about it? 262 00:12:41,487 --> 00:12:44,687 Speaker 2: For me, it reminds me of whenever I want to 263 00:12:44,807 --> 00:12:49,007 Speaker 2: plan a birthday party for myself, because I always feel 264 00:12:49,047 --> 00:12:52,687 Speaker 2: like such a dick. It's about getting people together who 265 00:12:52,687 --> 00:12:54,807 Speaker 2: are like, these people love me, surely they want to 266 00:12:54,807 --> 00:12:58,287 Speaker 2: celebrate me. Come to my dinner, but also pay for 267 00:12:58,327 --> 00:13:01,167 Speaker 2: your dinner and get me a present, and like, just 268 00:13:01,207 --> 00:13:03,167 Speaker 2: celebrate the love that you have for me. 269 00:13:03,527 --> 00:13:04,847 Speaker 4: And it's like asking people to. 270 00:13:04,847 --> 00:13:08,047 Speaker 2: Do something that seems so weird, whereas like if it's 271 00:13:08,047 --> 00:13:10,487 Speaker 2: a wedding and it's celebrating partnership, or if you have 272 00:13:10,527 --> 00:13:14,007 Speaker 2: a partner and they host the birthday party for you, 273 00:13:14,247 --> 00:13:14,847 Speaker 2: it's different. 274 00:13:15,367 --> 00:13:16,887 Speaker 5: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. 275 00:13:17,047 --> 00:13:19,527 Speaker 3: I hosted a birthday party for someone else at my 276 00:13:19,527 --> 00:13:21,447 Speaker 3: house this weekend, and I really enjoyed it. And then 277 00:13:21,487 --> 00:13:23,967 Speaker 3: I kind of went, oh, my birthday's coming up, like 278 00:13:23,967 --> 00:13:26,647 Speaker 3: I should do something, And I thought I felt really 279 00:13:26,687 --> 00:13:28,647 Speaker 3: icked out by the idea of having people over to 280 00:13:28,647 --> 00:13:30,927 Speaker 3: my house for my own birthday. But then a part 281 00:13:30,927 --> 00:13:33,487 Speaker 3: of me is like, if you want to celebrate yourself 282 00:13:33,607 --> 00:13:35,487 Speaker 3: or you want to get together with a bunch of people, 283 00:13:35,767 --> 00:13:37,807 Speaker 3: then there are lots of ways to do that. There's 284 00:13:37,847 --> 00:13:41,207 Speaker 3: something about the marriage to myself that makes me feel. 285 00:13:41,207 --> 00:13:43,487 Speaker 3: When you first said in your introduction, m about it 286 00:13:43,527 --> 00:13:45,527 Speaker 3: being like a pr consultant, I was like, yeah, of course, 287 00:13:45,607 --> 00:13:48,807 Speaker 3: pr Consultant's just a stunt, Like it's a stunt that's 288 00:13:48,847 --> 00:13:53,007 Speaker 3: meant to make us all go were like, and there 289 00:13:53,047 --> 00:13:54,847 Speaker 3: is this moral panic about single women. 290 00:13:54,887 --> 00:13:57,807 Speaker 1: Enoughness, Like imagine that that woman feels like she's enough 291 00:13:57,807 --> 00:13:59,927 Speaker 1: on her own, Like how terrifying would that be? 292 00:14:00,447 --> 00:14:01,647 Speaker 5: Yeah, true, true. 293 00:14:01,687 --> 00:14:04,527 Speaker 3: I just find the the worship of the self, and 294 00:14:04,567 --> 00:14:06,767 Speaker 3: I worry about that. I imagine one person at the 295 00:14:06,807 --> 00:14:08,727 Speaker 3: altar and they're like, I love you because blah blah 296 00:14:08,727 --> 00:14:10,367 Speaker 3: blah blah blah, and then they run around the other 297 00:14:10,407 --> 00:14:12,007 Speaker 3: side and they're like, I love you because blah blah 298 00:14:12,007 --> 00:14:13,767 Speaker 3: blah blah blah, and then they kiss themselves. 299 00:14:13,407 --> 00:14:14,887 Speaker 5: And then I just feel like that's apocalyptic. 300 00:14:15,087 --> 00:14:17,367 Speaker 1: Would be interesting to know what the wedding vows are, 301 00:14:17,447 --> 00:14:18,447 Speaker 1: Like I'll let you guys know. 302 00:14:23,767 --> 00:14:24,967 Speaker 2: Mothery hell out. 303 00:14:29,647 --> 00:14:33,447 Speaker 1: Politicians being pushed to answer whether they are secretly planning 304 00:14:33,567 --> 00:14:38,007 Speaker 1: to make terminating a pregnancy illegal, a heated staush about 305 00:14:38,047 --> 00:14:40,647 Speaker 1: exactly how many weeks is the acceptable number of weeks 306 00:14:40,687 --> 00:14:43,967 Speaker 1: to have an abortion, a university walk out over a 307 00:14:44,007 --> 00:14:47,407 Speaker 1: pro life graduation speech, and one of the most prominent 308 00:14:47,447 --> 00:14:52,607 Speaker 1: politicians in the country calling termination after the first trimester infanticide. 309 00:14:53,247 --> 00:14:55,487 Speaker 1: If you think I'm talking about the United States right 310 00:14:55,487 --> 00:14:59,167 Speaker 1: now and American politics in particular, you'd be wrong. These 311 00:14:59,207 --> 00:15:02,767 Speaker 1: are all things that happened in Australia this week and 312 00:15:02,807 --> 00:15:04,727 Speaker 1: this is all adding up to a political push to 313 00:15:04,767 --> 00:15:07,247 Speaker 1: get a woman's right to choose into our voting booths. 314 00:15:07,567 --> 00:15:10,927 Speaker 1: But why and how Here's a very top line overview, 315 00:15:10,927 --> 00:15:13,847 Speaker 1: because this is quite complicated. So for context, there's a 316 00:15:13,847 --> 00:15:17,527 Speaker 1: big state election happening in Queensland this weekend. High Queenslanders, 317 00:15:17,527 --> 00:15:20,887 Speaker 1: I'm sure you're very very aware of it. It's largely 318 00:15:20,967 --> 00:15:23,487 Speaker 1: expected that the Labor government is going to be overturned 319 00:15:23,527 --> 00:15:25,727 Speaker 1: by the Coalition in a bit of a landslide after 320 00:15:25,807 --> 00:15:29,047 Speaker 1: nine years in power. The reason that abortion has popped 321 00:15:29,127 --> 00:15:31,767 Speaker 1: up as an issue in that election is that Robbie Catter, 322 00:15:32,007 --> 00:15:34,767 Speaker 1: who is the leader of the Cara Australia Party and 323 00:15:34,807 --> 00:15:37,847 Speaker 1: Bob Katter's Sun and that party does have some sway 324 00:15:37,847 --> 00:15:40,447 Speaker 1: in Queensland it has three seats i think, which represent 325 00:15:40,487 --> 00:15:42,967 Speaker 1: a geographically big part of the state, says that he 326 00:15:43,007 --> 00:15:46,967 Speaker 1: would immediately introduce a private member's bill to wind back 327 00:15:47,007 --> 00:15:50,487 Speaker 1: abortion access in the state, something that if a conscience 328 00:15:50,567 --> 00:15:53,367 Speaker 1: vote was allowed on the matter could actually happen. The 329 00:15:53,447 --> 00:15:55,887 Speaker 1: Liberal leader, though, the guy who's going to be the 330 00:15:55,927 --> 00:15:58,527 Speaker 1: premiere if everything goes the way that people think it's 331 00:15:58,527 --> 00:16:00,967 Speaker 1: going to go, is a guy called David Chris A. Fooley, 332 00:16:01,007 --> 00:16:03,167 Speaker 1: and he has had to spend the whole week being 333 00:16:03,247 --> 00:16:06,207 Speaker 1: asked about this and denying it and saying it's not 334 00:16:06,247 --> 00:16:09,007 Speaker 1: going to be the case. But it hasn't stopped the speculation, 335 00:16:09,767 --> 00:16:12,247 Speaker 1: not helped by the fact that one of his candidates, 336 00:16:12,367 --> 00:16:16,127 Speaker 1: Freya Ostapovich, has been recorded telling voters I am on 337 00:16:16,167 --> 00:16:18,447 Speaker 1: the record, I am pro life. I can't say anything 338 00:16:18,487 --> 00:16:22,567 Speaker 1: yet because we've got to get elected before we do anything. Meanwhile, 339 00:16:22,607 --> 00:16:26,087 Speaker 1: in South Australia, a bill was narrowly voted down that 340 00:16:26,127 --> 00:16:29,087 Speaker 1: would have banned a procedure involved in a very late 341 00:16:29,207 --> 00:16:33,007 Speaker 1: term abortion. Now it's a very complicated and emotional discussion, 342 00:16:33,047 --> 00:16:36,487 Speaker 1: this one, because it involves a tiny number of pregnancies 343 00:16:36,847 --> 00:16:40,167 Speaker 1: that end in a very specific medical way under really 344 00:16:40,367 --> 00:16:44,927 Speaker 1: egregious circumstances. Those kind of circumstances were spelled out this 345 00:16:45,007 --> 00:16:47,647 Speaker 1: week on Mamma Mia by a woman called Natasha Williams. 346 00:16:48,047 --> 00:16:51,847 Speaker 1: She explained how her baby Toby was diagnosed with very 347 00:16:51,887 --> 00:16:55,527 Speaker 1: severe life limiting conditions at the beginning of her third trimester, 348 00:16:56,127 --> 00:16:58,967 Speaker 1: and making the decision to undergo the procedure that this 349 00:16:59,047 --> 00:17:03,167 Speaker 1: band would have outlawed was, Natasha says, the single most 350 00:17:03,167 --> 00:17:06,007 Speaker 1: difficult thing I have ever done, as it would be 351 00:17:06,087 --> 00:17:08,847 Speaker 1: for all mothers who are faced with this heartbreaking decision. 352 00:17:09,247 --> 00:17:11,367 Speaker 1: But I did it because I loved him with every 353 00:17:11,447 --> 00:17:14,967 Speaker 1: inch of my broken heart. Now, with these very emotive 354 00:17:15,007 --> 00:17:17,927 Speaker 1: issues bubbling away, we're now at the point where yesterday 355 00:17:17,967 --> 00:17:22,647 Speaker 1: in Sydney at a Conservative conference, Coalition Senator Jacinto Naberjerra 356 00:17:22,727 --> 00:17:26,127 Speaker 1: Price said she wanted abortion back on the national agenda 357 00:17:26,247 --> 00:17:29,887 Speaker 1: and that pregnancies ended after the first trimester are immoral. 358 00:17:30,207 --> 00:17:34,527 Speaker 1: She used the word infanticide, Jesse, A lot of us 359 00:17:34,567 --> 00:17:37,527 Speaker 1: are confused about how this is suddenly in all of 360 00:17:37,527 --> 00:17:39,567 Speaker 1: our headlines here, and it feels like there are some 361 00:17:39,607 --> 00:17:42,487 Speaker 1: who are keen to make this issue political in Australia 362 00:17:42,567 --> 00:17:45,887 Speaker 1: in the way that traditionally it just isn't right. Do 363 00:17:45,927 --> 00:17:47,407 Speaker 1: you think that they'll succeed. 364 00:17:47,887 --> 00:17:53,007 Speaker 3: It feels like a political debate that will never be 365 00:17:53,047 --> 00:17:56,927 Speaker 3: fully settled or fully decided, and I wonder if that's 366 00:17:56,967 --> 00:18:02,607 Speaker 3: because of how highly emotional it is for all people involved. 367 00:18:02,767 --> 00:18:08,607 Speaker 3: So it speaks to the definition of human life, who 368 00:18:08,687 --> 00:18:11,687 Speaker 3: we see a base is belonging to. It's also about faith, 369 00:18:11,767 --> 00:18:17,647 Speaker 3: people's religious beliefs, and it's about women who have made, 370 00:18:18,087 --> 00:18:21,927 Speaker 3: in consultation with their doctor the most heartbreaking decision they've 371 00:18:21,967 --> 00:18:23,687 Speaker 3: ever had to make in their life, and then being 372 00:18:23,807 --> 00:18:26,847 Speaker 3: told by a politician that it's infanticide. I cannot imagine 373 00:18:26,887 --> 00:18:30,167 Speaker 3: what that would do to someone. It feels as though 374 00:18:30,247 --> 00:18:33,767 Speaker 3: it's definitely being used as a political football film. 375 00:18:33,807 --> 00:18:34,807 Speaker 5: We've seen this in the past. 376 00:18:34,887 --> 00:18:37,127 Speaker 3: It comes up and I think everyone looks at each 377 00:18:37,127 --> 00:18:41,607 Speaker 3: other and goes, aren't we talking about one person here? Like, really, 378 00:18:41,647 --> 00:18:44,727 Speaker 3: in terms of all the issues that affect Australians, this 379 00:18:44,887 --> 00:18:47,007 Speaker 3: is such a tiny minority. I was looking at the 380 00:18:47,087 --> 00:18:49,447 Speaker 3: South Australia example, and I think they were saying that 381 00:18:49,447 --> 00:18:51,807 Speaker 3: in the last eighteen months it almost didn't impact anyone, 382 00:18:51,967 --> 00:18:55,647 Speaker 3: Like there was no one where this was actually an issue, 383 00:18:55,647 --> 00:18:59,127 Speaker 3: and the women who I think Natasha's story was so 384 00:18:59,167 --> 00:19:02,807 Speaker 3: important because when we're talking about terminating a pregnancy at 385 00:19:02,807 --> 00:19:05,127 Speaker 3: thirty five weeks, To be completely honest, I think that 386 00:19:05,127 --> 00:19:06,607 Speaker 3: a lot of people do look at each other and go, 387 00:19:06,727 --> 00:19:10,847 Speaker 3: wait what, one hundred percent that's very emotional, like the 388 00:19:10,927 --> 00:19:13,967 Speaker 3: image that that conjures up in your head. If you 389 00:19:14,167 --> 00:19:16,807 Speaker 3: have ever been pregnant and you know what it is 390 00:19:16,847 --> 00:19:19,367 Speaker 3: to look at that ultrasound, you're just kind of going, oh, 391 00:19:19,447 --> 00:19:22,367 Speaker 3: people can snap their fingers, and that's just not what's happening. 392 00:19:22,367 --> 00:19:26,847 Speaker 3: It's a deliberate misrepresentation. But I've just found the whole 393 00:19:26,887 --> 00:19:30,287 Speaker 3: thing quite distressing to see it play out, especially because 394 00:19:30,287 --> 00:19:33,167 Speaker 3: we know that when Roverse Wade has been round back 395 00:19:33,167 --> 00:19:35,727 Speaker 3: in the US, it's not an exaggeration to say that 396 00:19:35,807 --> 00:19:38,447 Speaker 3: women have died. There are examples of women who have 397 00:19:38,527 --> 00:19:42,487 Speaker 3: died because you're privileging that baby's life, and you're going, 398 00:19:42,887 --> 00:19:47,127 Speaker 3: are you know there are times in which late stage 399 00:19:47,167 --> 00:19:50,087 Speaker 3: there might be a fetal abnormalady or whatever, but you 400 00:19:50,127 --> 00:19:52,007 Speaker 3: get to the point where the woman is almost dead, 401 00:19:52,047 --> 00:19:57,127 Speaker 3: as Harris said recently, before you intervene, and in that way, 402 00:19:57,167 --> 00:19:59,927 Speaker 3: it's a very sort of big discussion. 403 00:19:59,927 --> 00:20:00,607 Speaker 5: What have you made of it? 404 00:20:00,687 --> 00:20:00,887 Speaker 3: Him? 405 00:20:01,007 --> 00:20:03,807 Speaker 2: I'm quite concerned because I just see it all over 406 00:20:03,967 --> 00:20:06,247 Speaker 2: my TikTok. That's where I've skett all my news. Now 407 00:20:06,847 --> 00:20:09,087 Speaker 2: what do you see there? What's there this week? 408 00:20:09,327 --> 00:20:10,007 Speaker 1: All this stuff? 409 00:20:10,367 --> 00:20:14,247 Speaker 2: It's the speech at ACU Australian Catholic University of everyone 410 00:20:14,287 --> 00:20:16,127 Speaker 2: walking out. I don't actually I didn't actually see what 411 00:20:16,167 --> 00:20:19,287 Speaker 2: the speech was, but I just saw like videos. I 412 00:20:19,287 --> 00:20:21,407 Speaker 2: think it was students who are filming on their phones 413 00:20:21,927 --> 00:20:24,927 Speaker 2: of I think like a professor talking about like abortion, 414 00:20:25,167 --> 00:20:27,207 Speaker 2: and like they were just filming the crowd basically of 415 00:20:27,287 --> 00:20:29,847 Speaker 2: like an empty seats of everyone walking out. But it 416 00:20:29,967 --> 00:20:34,207 Speaker 2: was a comment on those videos of people in my generation, 417 00:20:34,407 --> 00:20:38,087 Speaker 2: especially like younger men, commenting going looks like I'm moving 418 00:20:38,127 --> 00:20:40,687 Speaker 2: to Queensland, looks like I'm moving to South Australia. 419 00:20:40,727 --> 00:20:42,407 Speaker 4: Like it's quite scary. 420 00:20:42,167 --> 00:20:44,607 Speaker 2: Because I always thought it was a generational thing and 421 00:20:44,647 --> 00:20:46,847 Speaker 2: I've thought once that passes will be fine. 422 00:20:46,967 --> 00:20:49,367 Speaker 1: Jesse, can you explain about the ACU story. 423 00:20:49,487 --> 00:20:51,727 Speaker 3: Joe de brun is a former union boss and they 424 00:20:51,727 --> 00:20:54,327 Speaker 3: were giving him an honorary degree and in so doing, 425 00:20:54,407 --> 00:20:58,247 Speaker 3: he was then delivering the graduation speech at ACU. There's 426 00:20:58,367 --> 00:21:00,287 Speaker 3: some in New South walest too, but this one was 427 00:21:00,327 --> 00:21:04,127 Speaker 3: in Melbourne and in this speech, so if you were graduating, 428 00:21:04,167 --> 00:21:05,687 Speaker 3: you were there. You might be with your parents or 429 00:21:05,767 --> 00:21:07,047 Speaker 3: a partner or whoever. 430 00:21:06,767 --> 00:21:08,327 Speaker 4: And you pay like at least like fifty to one 431 00:21:08,367 --> 00:21:09,447 Speaker 4: hundred dollars per ticket. 432 00:21:09,407 --> 00:21:12,847 Speaker 3: You pay to be there, right, And so this speech 433 00:21:13,047 --> 00:21:17,327 Speaker 3: started talking about abortion. It said abortion is a single 434 00:21:17,447 --> 00:21:20,407 Speaker 3: biggest killer of human beings in the world and referred 435 00:21:20,447 --> 00:21:22,687 Speaker 3: to it as a tragedy that must be ended. He 436 00:21:22,727 --> 00:21:26,847 Speaker 3: also spoke critically about IVF and same sex marriage, and 437 00:21:27,127 --> 00:21:30,567 Speaker 3: what you saw em was like ninety five percent of 438 00:21:30,607 --> 00:21:34,247 Speaker 3: the auditorium actually got up and left. And I've read 439 00:21:34,287 --> 00:21:36,767 Speaker 3: reports that said the people most of the people that 440 00:21:36,807 --> 00:21:39,607 Speaker 3: stayed with their filming, and then apparently there was a 441 00:21:39,647 --> 00:21:41,647 Speaker 3: tiny portion who gave him a standing ovation. 442 00:21:41,767 --> 00:21:45,727 Speaker 1: That's interesting to me, right, because I wasn't surprised, and 443 00:21:45,767 --> 00:21:47,527 Speaker 1: I admit that I don't know very much about this, 444 00:21:47,567 --> 00:21:49,487 Speaker 1: which is why I'm throwing to you, my Catholic friend, 445 00:21:50,727 --> 00:21:53,887 Speaker 1: I am not surprised that a speaker at a Catholic 446 00:21:54,007 --> 00:21:55,767 Speaker 1: university made those comments. 447 00:21:56,007 --> 00:21:58,927 Speaker 5: So it's not a Catholic university, Oh I thought it was. 448 00:21:58,967 --> 00:22:01,127 Speaker 3: So it's called Australian Catholic University and it was set 449 00:22:01,167 --> 00:22:03,887 Speaker 3: up that way, right, It's actually a public university and 450 00:22:04,247 --> 00:22:06,407 Speaker 3: most of the people that go there are not Catholic. Right, 451 00:22:06,607 --> 00:22:09,127 Speaker 3: So he didn't understand who his audience was. Part of 452 00:22:09,367 --> 00:22:12,527 Speaker 3: me is like, did you not understand the brief Basically, 453 00:22:12,967 --> 00:22:15,287 Speaker 3: you can study kind of religious subjects there. 454 00:22:15,287 --> 00:22:16,167 Speaker 5: Both my parents went to. 455 00:22:16,407 --> 00:22:17,407 Speaker 4: I have a lot of friends. 456 00:22:17,167 --> 00:22:18,807 Speaker 2: Who went to ASU, and I think a lot of 457 00:22:18,887 --> 00:22:21,127 Speaker 2: them went there because it's one of the universities that 458 00:22:21,167 --> 00:22:24,167 Speaker 2: office things that other universities don't. I have two friends 459 00:22:24,167 --> 00:22:27,527 Speaker 2: who studied nursing there, Yes, and they couldn't believe the 460 00:22:27,567 --> 00:22:28,887 Speaker 2: speech exactly. 461 00:22:29,447 --> 00:22:31,327 Speaker 3: So it says on the website like, you don't need 462 00:22:31,327 --> 00:22:33,567 Speaker 3: to be Catholic to study with us. Across our university 463 00:22:33,647 --> 00:22:36,047 Speaker 3: staff and students of all faiths of none, work within 464 00:22:36,087 --> 00:22:38,527 Speaker 3: the framework of respect for our mission and tradition, commit 465 00:22:38,567 --> 00:22:39,367 Speaker 3: to the pursuit of knowledge. 466 00:22:39,367 --> 00:22:40,247 Speaker 5: Blah blah blah. 467 00:22:40,487 --> 00:22:43,367 Speaker 3: So I totally understand what you're saying, Holly, is that 468 00:22:43,407 --> 00:22:45,367 Speaker 3: you look at that and did he assume that he 469 00:22:45,447 --> 00:22:47,087 Speaker 3: was going to have a room full of people. 470 00:22:46,767 --> 00:22:51,247 Speaker 1: Who were religious and agreed on religious grounds. 471 00:22:51,407 --> 00:22:52,887 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's interesting timing. 472 00:22:53,007 --> 00:22:56,127 Speaker 1: The thing that's bothering me about this because the thing 473 00:22:56,207 --> 00:22:59,647 Speaker 1: is in Australia, it's complicated to get stats on abortion 474 00:22:59,727 --> 00:23:02,767 Speaker 1: because every state has different policies and some of the 475 00:23:02,807 --> 00:23:06,087 Speaker 1: procedures involved in medical abortion are also procedures used for 476 00:23:06,127 --> 00:23:08,647 Speaker 1: other things. Right, So it's actually quite hard to get 477 00:23:08,647 --> 00:23:12,487 Speaker 1: the stats on how many Australian women get abortions, but 478 00:23:12,687 --> 00:23:15,447 Speaker 1: broadly speaking, all the best data suggests that it has 479 00:23:15,487 --> 00:23:19,447 Speaker 1: been slowly falling for a while, mostly because contraception is 480 00:23:19,487 --> 00:23:22,607 Speaker 1: more widely available and more acceptable and all the rest 481 00:23:22,647 --> 00:23:25,407 Speaker 1: of the things. So it seems that in general abortions 482 00:23:25,447 --> 00:23:28,567 Speaker 1: are falling. But also since twenty fifteen, you've been able 483 00:23:28,607 --> 00:23:31,167 Speaker 1: to get what they call medication abortion, which is the 484 00:23:31,207 --> 00:23:33,647 Speaker 1: abortion pill. In broad terms, you know that you can 485 00:23:33,647 --> 00:23:37,367 Speaker 1: get from a GP. So abortion is lots of things, right, 486 00:23:37,847 --> 00:23:41,407 Speaker 1: And what is troubling me about these conversations that are 487 00:23:41,407 --> 00:23:44,687 Speaker 1: breaking through to the mainstream that are profiling the you 488 00:23:44,727 --> 00:23:47,927 Speaker 1: know in South Australia and in Queensland people saying late 489 00:23:47,967 --> 00:23:51,487 Speaker 1: term abortion, late term abortion, infanticide is they're very much 490 00:23:51,527 --> 00:23:55,487 Speaker 1: echoing the Donald Trump playbook, which is try and frame 491 00:23:55,567 --> 00:24:00,287 Speaker 1: abortion as murdering babies at the last minute because you 492 00:24:00,407 --> 00:24:03,527 Speaker 1: want to right. That is literally what they are doing. 493 00:24:03,687 --> 00:24:06,127 Speaker 1: And they take this issue that is very complex and 494 00:24:06,247 --> 00:24:09,407 Speaker 1: very broad and can mean anything in its definition from 495 00:24:09,647 --> 00:24:12,447 Speaker 1: taking a tablet you know, a couple of weeks in 496 00:24:12,727 --> 00:24:16,447 Speaker 1: that your doctor's prescribed to you to an absolutely devastating 497 00:24:16,487 --> 00:24:20,767 Speaker 1: procedure like Natasha underwent, and then throwing this blanket of 498 00:24:21,207 --> 00:24:24,567 Speaker 1: moral question over it. And the truth of it is 499 00:24:24,607 --> 00:24:27,647 Speaker 1: that in Australia you can get a termination of varying 500 00:24:27,767 --> 00:24:31,727 Speaker 1: kinds in most states early in a pregnancy relatively easy, 501 00:24:31,887 --> 00:24:36,087 Speaker 1: safely and cheaply. Right later in the pregnancy you need 502 00:24:36,247 --> 00:24:40,487 Speaker 1: more medical supervision, more medical sign off, more complication. Those 503 00:24:40,887 --> 00:24:43,607 Speaker 1: numbers are tiny. So I just want everyone to know 504 00:24:43,647 --> 00:24:46,687 Speaker 1: that when they're reading these stories about the politicians who 505 00:24:46,687 --> 00:24:49,887 Speaker 1: are grabbing onto these sort of shocking stats that they 506 00:24:49,927 --> 00:24:52,167 Speaker 1: want you to listen to, or these shocking stories that 507 00:24:52,167 --> 00:24:54,087 Speaker 1: they want you to listen to, and throwing around these 508 00:24:54,087 --> 00:24:58,247 Speaker 1: broad terms about women who are just randomly deciding they 509 00:24:58,287 --> 00:25:00,727 Speaker 1: don't want to be pregnant anymore, very fear into their pregnancies. 510 00:25:00,927 --> 00:25:04,807 Speaker 1: It's just not true. It's hijacked something that isn't an issue, 511 00:25:04,847 --> 00:25:06,647 Speaker 1: like it isn't an issue here. No. 512 00:25:06,767 --> 00:25:09,407 Speaker 3: And in the case of Natasha, and she said that 513 00:25:09,487 --> 00:25:12,487 Speaker 3: her son Toby was never going to see, he was 514 00:25:12,527 --> 00:25:14,247 Speaker 3: never going to walk, he was never going to talk 515 00:25:14,647 --> 00:25:17,487 Speaker 3: thinking about his quality of life. I mean, that was 516 00:25:17,527 --> 00:25:21,287 Speaker 3: what was heartbreaking for her, That decision about what happens 517 00:25:21,327 --> 00:25:24,007 Speaker 3: with Toby. I don't get to have an opinion on that. 518 00:25:24,007 --> 00:25:27,927 Speaker 3: That is between medical doctors and Natasha. I don't wish 519 00:25:27,927 --> 00:25:29,647 Speaker 3: to have an opinion on that. That's not something for 520 00:25:29,807 --> 00:25:35,327 Speaker 3: me to like philosophically debate as a politician. It is 521 00:25:35,367 --> 00:25:37,567 Speaker 3: one of the most heartbreaking things. That's what happened. 522 00:25:37,687 --> 00:25:40,447 Speaker 1: I absolutely can't bear it when we were watching the 523 00:25:40,567 --> 00:25:43,487 Speaker 1: vice presidential debate and it got to the abortion segment, 524 00:25:43,527 --> 00:25:45,687 Speaker 1: because there has to be an abortion segment, you know, 525 00:25:46,087 --> 00:25:49,487 Speaker 1: and you've got these two guys up there picking case 526 00:25:49,527 --> 00:25:53,007 Speaker 1: studies out of the air discussing this, and it's just 527 00:25:53,527 --> 00:25:56,647 Speaker 1: absolutely infuriating that it is being used, as you said, Jesse, 528 00:25:56,727 --> 00:25:58,927 Speaker 1: as a political football by people who are like, oh, 529 00:25:59,287 --> 00:26:03,847 Speaker 1: culture issues work for wedge politics. They've worked in America. 530 00:26:04,007 --> 00:26:07,767 Speaker 1: They get people inflamed about perceived threats to the way 531 00:26:07,767 --> 00:26:10,367 Speaker 1: that we see things. We've got a very diverse population 532 00:26:10,407 --> 00:26:12,367 Speaker 1: in Australia, many of whom would have different views on 533 00:26:12,407 --> 00:26:15,727 Speaker 1: abortion for religious reasons and otherwise, and none of that 534 00:26:15,807 --> 00:26:16,807 Speaker 1: is threatened. 535 00:26:16,607 --> 00:26:19,087 Speaker 3: Because the pro life people I know don't want to 536 00:26:19,127 --> 00:26:21,447 Speaker 3: project that onto the rest of Australia. There are deeply 537 00:26:21,487 --> 00:26:24,487 Speaker 3: religious people that I know that they're just like I 538 00:26:24,487 --> 00:26:28,127 Speaker 3: don't believe in abortion, fine, absolutely fine, but they don't 539 00:26:28,167 --> 00:26:29,847 Speaker 3: want that enshrined in politics. 540 00:26:30,087 --> 00:26:59,567 Speaker 1: Just dip behind the headlines. I would suggest on this issue. 541 00:26:47,967 --> 00:26:49,767 Speaker 5: What unlimited out Loud access. 542 00:26:50,047 --> 00:26:54,127 Speaker 3: We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum 543 00:26:54,207 --> 00:26:57,207 Speaker 3: and MEA subscribers. Follow the link in the show notes 544 00:26:57,207 --> 00:26:59,647 Speaker 3: to get us in your ears five days a week, 545 00:26:59,847 --> 00:27:03,247 Speaker 3: and a huge thank you to all our current subscribers. 546 00:27:08,767 --> 00:27:09,127 Speaker 5: For week. 547 00:27:09,287 --> 00:27:11,807 Speaker 3: Yes, we have been busting to talk about a substack 548 00:27:11,967 --> 00:27:15,367 Speaker 3: article by Anne Helen Peterson all about women and the 549 00:27:15,367 --> 00:27:20,927 Speaker 3: complexities of what she terms clean culture. She writes, cleanliness 550 00:27:20,967 --> 00:27:24,087 Speaker 3: is morally superior, and women should aspire to be morally 551 00:27:24,127 --> 00:27:27,607 Speaker 3: irreproachable so as to negate the original sin of being 552 00:27:27,647 --> 00:27:30,247 Speaker 3: a woman. An unclean woman is a bad woman. An 553 00:27:30,327 --> 00:27:34,247 Speaker 3: untidy house reflective of an undisciplined mind. You can understand 554 00:27:34,327 --> 00:27:36,847 Speaker 3: this thinking as bullshit and still be subject to it. 555 00:27:37,607 --> 00:27:41,007 Speaker 3: What inspired this article was data she came across about 556 00:27:41,007 --> 00:27:44,207 Speaker 3: how women do twice as much housework as men. But 557 00:27:44,327 --> 00:27:47,727 Speaker 3: the real kicker for her was that this isn't just mothers, 558 00:27:47,727 --> 00:27:51,207 Speaker 3: and in fact, it's not just in heterosexual households. In fact, 559 00:27:51,247 --> 00:27:54,207 Speaker 3: the research showed that eighteen year old women, single women 560 00:27:54,327 --> 00:27:57,687 Speaker 3: are also doing more housework. So the question is why 561 00:27:57,887 --> 00:28:01,247 Speaker 3: are women just hardwired this way or is it socialized? 562 00:28:01,807 --> 00:28:02,407 Speaker 5: I loved this. 563 00:28:02,447 --> 00:28:05,247 Speaker 3: Quote from a woman Peterson spoke to. She said, our 564 00:28:05,327 --> 00:28:07,327 Speaker 3: mums were taught this stuff, and so we grew up 565 00:28:07,367 --> 00:28:10,767 Speaker 3: only knowing a peaceful house when it was pristine, because 566 00:28:10,807 --> 00:28:13,687 Speaker 3: otherwise she was cleaning. Now, we can't feel at peace 567 00:28:13,767 --> 00:28:16,687 Speaker 3: until it's clean, even though there isn't anyone telling us 568 00:28:16,687 --> 00:28:19,727 Speaker 3: it has to be this way, Holly. The position of 569 00:28:19,887 --> 00:28:23,367 Speaker 3: evolutionary psychology would probably be that we're hardwired this way. 570 00:28:23,527 --> 00:28:26,287 Speaker 3: The men hunted, women tended to their space, they clean, 571 00:28:26,327 --> 00:28:29,887 Speaker 3: they looked after kids. My question is what went wrong 572 00:28:29,927 --> 00:28:31,607 Speaker 3: with your wiring? And are you ashamed about it? 573 00:28:33,527 --> 00:28:35,847 Speaker 1: I think I've just been outed as a dirty one, 574 00:28:36,327 --> 00:28:41,247 Speaker 1: a messy girl. I hate cleaning, hate cleaning all type 575 00:28:41,287 --> 00:28:43,167 Speaker 1: of clean I hate all housework. 576 00:28:43,367 --> 00:28:45,167 Speaker 5: There's not one little bit that you don't mind. 577 00:28:45,247 --> 00:28:47,327 Speaker 1: I do it. Don't get me wrong, Like I don't 578 00:28:47,367 --> 00:28:49,367 Speaker 1: live in a pigsty and we don't have a cleaner, 579 00:28:49,447 --> 00:28:51,567 Speaker 1: and Brent does some and I do some, and so 580 00:28:51,647 --> 00:28:53,927 Speaker 1: obviously I do it. But there isn't even a bit 581 00:28:53,967 --> 00:28:56,247 Speaker 1: of me that enjoys it. I hate it, and so 582 00:28:56,327 --> 00:28:58,767 Speaker 1: I resent every part of it. So I probably don't 583 00:28:58,807 --> 00:29:03,887 Speaker 1: do it very well. So but I have definitely internalized 584 00:29:04,247 --> 00:29:06,647 Speaker 1: the fact that that's the flaw in me, right, because 585 00:29:07,487 --> 00:29:09,847 Speaker 1: when I sit in the bathroom and I look at 586 00:29:09,887 --> 00:29:12,727 Speaker 1: the skirting boards and I see that they're dusty, and 587 00:29:12,767 --> 00:29:15,167 Speaker 1: I see that, you know, the grout between the tiles, 588 00:29:15,167 --> 00:29:17,567 Speaker 1: and you're like, oh fuck, you know, like all that 589 00:29:17,727 --> 00:29:23,127 Speaker 1: level of clean I'm just like, I'm disgusting. I'm lazy. 590 00:29:23,207 --> 00:29:24,607 Speaker 1: It's one of the reason why I don't like having 591 00:29:24,607 --> 00:29:26,407 Speaker 1: people to my house, not because it's dirty, but I 592 00:29:26,447 --> 00:29:29,887 Speaker 1: know that people who are clean, like properly clean things, yeah, 593 00:29:29,887 --> 00:29:32,167 Speaker 1: they'll notice those things. And in fact, this was all 594 00:29:32,247 --> 00:29:35,487 Speaker 1: validated recently when we went away to Lord how Alan 595 00:29:35,527 --> 00:29:38,127 Speaker 1: for a week. The other week I had friends come 596 00:29:38,167 --> 00:29:40,207 Speaker 1: and stay in my house. Lovely, wonderful friends come and 597 00:29:40,207 --> 00:29:44,207 Speaker 1: look after tuna. I came back, my house was so clean, 598 00:29:44,527 --> 00:29:48,767 Speaker 1: Like the level of cleanliness, every counter, every edge of 599 00:29:48,847 --> 00:29:50,447 Speaker 1: you know where the tiles meet the wall. What if 600 00:29:50,487 --> 00:29:52,287 Speaker 1: you call that bit that's sticky and it always gets 601 00:29:52,287 --> 00:29:55,847 Speaker 1: a bit grubby. Yeah, yeah, every shelf wiped down, every 602 00:29:55,887 --> 00:29:58,247 Speaker 1: plant pot, had been lifted up and wiped underneath it. 603 00:29:58,287 --> 00:30:01,727 Speaker 1: Because my friend Penny's probably listening to this baby it's fine, 604 00:30:01,807 --> 00:30:05,567 Speaker 1: but she is clean and she loves cleaning, and I 605 00:30:05,647 --> 00:30:07,527 Speaker 1: know she thinks some shit at it, and I know 606 00:30:07,647 --> 00:30:09,687 Speaker 1: she comes to my house and goes and. 607 00:30:09,607 --> 00:30:12,927 Speaker 5: So she no, she might have just tried to clearrapeutic. 608 00:30:13,247 --> 00:30:15,527 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was lovely for me to walk back 609 00:30:15,567 --> 00:30:17,487 Speaker 1: into a spotless house. Like I'm not going to say 610 00:30:17,487 --> 00:30:20,007 Speaker 1: it wasn't. There's a bit of me that thinks, why 611 00:30:20,087 --> 00:30:22,927 Speaker 1: am I like this wig? Because I think it's like 612 00:30:23,487 --> 00:30:26,567 Speaker 1: it is hardwired into me somewhere, that there's something wrong 613 00:30:26,607 --> 00:30:28,007 Speaker 1: with me because I don't like cleaning? 614 00:30:28,247 --> 00:30:31,607 Speaker 3: And am you alone? So this is kind of talking. 615 00:30:31,727 --> 00:30:35,127 Speaker 3: This whole article is sort of about why women who 616 00:30:35,247 --> 00:30:37,047 Speaker 3: even live alone are doing more housework. 617 00:30:37,087 --> 00:30:37,727 Speaker 4: There's no point. 618 00:30:39,007 --> 00:30:41,607 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was wondering why it said women who are 619 00:30:41,647 --> 00:30:44,527 Speaker 2: single also do more. I'm like more than what's like 620 00:30:44,567 --> 00:30:46,167 Speaker 2: more than no one more. 621 00:30:47,327 --> 00:30:49,127 Speaker 1: And also more than in the past. It's one of 622 00:30:49,167 --> 00:30:51,207 Speaker 1: the other things she says is that this isn't shifted 623 00:30:51,247 --> 00:30:52,207 Speaker 1: with women working more. 624 00:30:52,247 --> 00:30:53,927 Speaker 2: So I think I'm the opposite of you whole. Whereas 625 00:30:53,967 --> 00:30:56,007 Speaker 2: I don't like cleaning, I like tidying, Like I like 626 00:30:56,047 --> 00:30:59,207 Speaker 2: things to look tidy. But if I want to clean, 627 00:30:59,327 --> 00:31:01,527 Speaker 2: I have to invite someone over, because that's the only 628 00:31:01,767 --> 00:31:02,967 Speaker 2: reason why I would clean. 629 00:31:03,367 --> 00:31:05,767 Speaker 3: And do you resent the cleaning or do you actually 630 00:31:05,847 --> 00:31:06,887 Speaker 3: quite enjoy the cleaning? 631 00:31:06,967 --> 00:31:11,207 Speaker 2: I enjoy it looking clean, like I enjoy pretending to 632 00:31:11,247 --> 00:31:13,887 Speaker 2: be clean, but not actually cleaning. Like I don't think 633 00:31:13,887 --> 00:31:16,487 Speaker 2: I've cleaned my shower in like two months, because like 634 00:31:16,527 --> 00:31:17,327 Speaker 2: you don't really see it. 635 00:31:17,647 --> 00:31:18,607 Speaker 4: I just closed the door. 636 00:31:19,287 --> 00:31:19,927 Speaker 5: That's so true. 637 00:31:19,967 --> 00:31:22,247 Speaker 2: So I don't like the look of things being dirty, 638 00:31:22,327 --> 00:31:23,287 Speaker 2: so I just don't look at it. 639 00:31:23,527 --> 00:31:26,407 Speaker 3: And how about like just during the week, Like if 640 00:31:26,447 --> 00:31:29,407 Speaker 3: someone came to your house on a Wednesday night, is 641 00:31:29,447 --> 00:31:32,407 Speaker 3: your washing done? Is your bed made or your flaws vacuumed? 642 00:31:32,687 --> 00:31:33,367 Speaker 4: Bed's made? 643 00:31:33,567 --> 00:31:33,847 Speaker 1: Yeah? 644 00:31:34,007 --> 00:31:37,407 Speaker 2: Washing and floors no, So anything they can see will 645 00:31:37,447 --> 00:31:40,927 Speaker 2: be looking clean. I'll trick them looking clean. And I 646 00:31:40,967 --> 00:31:42,807 Speaker 2: think I need to trick myself into thinking it's clean 647 00:31:42,847 --> 00:31:46,167 Speaker 2: as well. Doing the actual act of like deep cleaning 648 00:31:46,367 --> 00:31:46,967 Speaker 2: is not for me. 649 00:31:47,207 --> 00:31:48,047 Speaker 1: What about you, Jesse? 650 00:31:48,487 --> 00:31:51,767 Speaker 3: See, I wondered because I thought I enjoyed cleaning, And 651 00:31:51,847 --> 00:31:54,327 Speaker 3: in very specific context, I have days now where I'm 652 00:31:54,487 --> 00:31:56,287 Speaker 3: I'm at home with Luna, and let's say she goes 653 00:31:56,287 --> 00:32:00,247 Speaker 3: down for a nap. Having an hour to clean almost 654 00:32:00,327 --> 00:32:02,927 Speaker 3: feels like a privilege. It feels like a little luxury 655 00:32:03,047 --> 00:32:06,007 Speaker 3: that I quite enjoy right, And I enjoy it because 656 00:32:06,247 --> 00:32:08,247 Speaker 3: in that hour I don't have anything else to do. 657 00:32:08,527 --> 00:32:10,247 Speaker 4: I can put on a podcast, but you can scroll 658 00:32:10,287 --> 00:32:10,767 Speaker 4: on TikTok. 659 00:32:11,007 --> 00:32:13,287 Speaker 3: I feel weird during the day, like it would make 660 00:32:13,407 --> 00:32:14,527 Speaker 3: me feel lazy. 661 00:32:14,807 --> 00:32:16,767 Speaker 5: I feel weird about it, right. 662 00:32:17,007 --> 00:32:20,727 Speaker 1: What I like that's under the cover of darkness, Yes, exactly. 663 00:32:21,247 --> 00:32:23,687 Speaker 3: But then I was like, do I like cleaning or 664 00:32:23,727 --> 00:32:25,647 Speaker 3: do I like the experience of the house being clean, 665 00:32:26,127 --> 00:32:29,447 Speaker 3: which is a different thing. And then I thought about 666 00:32:29,767 --> 00:32:32,367 Speaker 3: the drudgery of the everyday stuff right, Like the job 667 00:32:32,487 --> 00:32:35,687 Speaker 3: I hate the most is wiping down our high chair. 668 00:32:36,167 --> 00:32:38,407 Speaker 3: That kills me. I've looked at that and been like, 669 00:32:38,527 --> 00:32:40,487 Speaker 3: but I don't want to and I have to do it. 670 00:32:40,527 --> 00:32:44,367 Speaker 1: And your daughter is at a very messy age, yeah, 671 00:32:44,367 --> 00:32:46,647 Speaker 1: because she's up and about and into everything, and she's 672 00:32:46,687 --> 00:32:48,207 Speaker 1: eating messily and all the rest of it. So there's 673 00:32:48,247 --> 00:32:50,407 Speaker 1: a lot of goo and slop and mess and things 674 00:32:50,447 --> 00:32:51,087 Speaker 1: not in their place. 675 00:32:51,207 --> 00:32:52,327 Speaker 4: That's not satisfying, you know. 676 00:32:52,367 --> 00:32:55,287 Speaker 3: What's satisfying is, like I don't mind a vacuum, a mop, 677 00:32:55,367 --> 00:32:58,167 Speaker 3: put on a candle. Oh, Like, I just feel like 678 00:32:58,407 --> 00:33:01,447 Speaker 3: I've got my life together, But there's nothing satisfying about 679 00:33:01,447 --> 00:33:04,247 Speaker 3: wiping down a high chair. I don't like having people 680 00:33:04,287 --> 00:33:05,847 Speaker 3: in my house either, Holly, and I think it's for 681 00:33:05,887 --> 00:33:08,687 Speaker 3: that reason. There's like a privacy thing. And then I 682 00:33:08,687 --> 00:33:10,967 Speaker 3: thought about how women have internalized. I think it's to 683 00:33:11,007 --> 00:33:13,367 Speaker 3: do with periods and all that kind of stuff discussed, 684 00:33:13,607 --> 00:33:17,207 Speaker 3: Like we have this real visceral sense of disgust and 685 00:33:17,927 --> 00:33:21,887 Speaker 3: being messy feels like people would think I am disgusting 686 00:33:22,447 --> 00:33:24,767 Speaker 3: like that, they would think I am dirty that they 687 00:33:24,767 --> 00:33:27,047 Speaker 3: would walk into my house and they'd go, this is messy. 688 00:33:27,527 --> 00:33:28,367 Speaker 5: She is dirty. 689 00:33:28,887 --> 00:33:32,567 Speaker 1: And then like evesorganized and lazy. Yeah, that's what I think. 690 00:33:32,887 --> 00:33:35,367 Speaker 3: Or like let's say the fridge isn't clean, so something 691 00:33:35,367 --> 00:33:37,767 Speaker 3: smells in the fridge, and then the bad smell is 692 00:33:38,047 --> 00:33:41,327 Speaker 3: like you being disgusting. And then even a bathroom, like 693 00:33:41,807 --> 00:33:44,207 Speaker 3: men don't have as much shame about their bodily functions 694 00:33:44,207 --> 00:33:47,687 Speaker 3: as women. They just don't, So a bathroom being pristine 695 00:33:47,687 --> 00:33:51,447 Speaker 3: doesn't have the same like moral value for a woman. 696 00:33:51,527 --> 00:33:54,327 Speaker 3: It's like even having the chunk of toothpaste or having 697 00:33:54,367 --> 00:33:55,927 Speaker 3: the like you. 698 00:33:55,847 --> 00:33:56,887 Speaker 5: Know, it's very different. 699 00:33:56,927 --> 00:33:59,487 Speaker 1: This is the thing, is that the problem with cleaning 700 00:33:59,607 --> 00:34:01,807 Speaker 1: as self care, which is kind of being sold to 701 00:34:01,887 --> 00:34:04,087 Speaker 1: us a bit. I think this idea, and I know 702 00:34:04,167 --> 00:34:06,327 Speaker 1: that I know and love people who do love cleaning, 703 00:34:06,367 --> 00:34:08,967 Speaker 1: and it's there, you know, how you have that period 704 00:34:08,967 --> 00:34:11,407 Speaker 1: on then when you're clean, right, same in our house 705 00:34:11,447 --> 00:34:14,087 Speaker 1: that the house gets cleaned on a Saturday. Broadly speaking, 706 00:34:14,287 --> 00:34:17,847 Speaker 1: kids have a job, we're doing something. Whatever the thing 707 00:34:17,967 --> 00:34:20,007 Speaker 1: is about, it is the minute I've done the bathroom 708 00:34:20,527 --> 00:34:23,047 Speaker 1: and you've wiped down the sink from all the toothpaste spills, 709 00:34:23,087 --> 00:34:25,087 Speaker 1: and you've scrubbed the toilet and you've done all that. 710 00:34:26,287 --> 00:34:28,967 Speaker 1: Half an hour later, one of the children has been 711 00:34:29,007 --> 00:34:30,407 Speaker 1: in there or one of them been in there, and 712 00:34:30,407 --> 00:34:34,247 Speaker 1: it's dirty again. It's never finished, like the perfection of 713 00:34:34,567 --> 00:34:37,487 Speaker 1: a clean home, unless you do have you know, full 714 00:34:37,527 --> 00:34:40,167 Speaker 1: time staff or literally you spend your day doing it 715 00:34:40,207 --> 00:34:43,527 Speaker 1: is never over, so it's never sort of done. And 716 00:34:43,567 --> 00:34:45,047 Speaker 1: I know that there are a lot of people who 717 00:34:45,047 --> 00:34:49,927 Speaker 1: do find that meditative and satisfying, taking something grubby and 718 00:34:49,967 --> 00:34:53,567 Speaker 1: making it fresh. But it's one of those things that 719 00:34:53,607 --> 00:34:57,567 Speaker 1: society's agreed we should all like. And I think that's convenient, 720 00:34:57,607 --> 00:34:59,607 Speaker 1: isn't it that we've decided that all women should like 721 00:34:59,647 --> 00:35:02,487 Speaker 1: that because it's something that someone has to do or 722 00:35:02,487 --> 00:35:04,527 Speaker 1: we're literally all going to get sick and die, Like 723 00:35:05,007 --> 00:35:09,527 Speaker 1: if you never clean your bathroom, someone's getting gastro But 724 00:35:09,567 --> 00:35:12,247 Speaker 1: apparently I have to enjoy that. But it's something I 725 00:35:12,247 --> 00:35:14,287 Speaker 1: want to do with the podcast and a candle. It's like, 726 00:35:14,327 --> 00:35:16,727 Speaker 1: I fucking don't I like gardening, as you know, and 727 00:35:16,767 --> 00:35:19,007 Speaker 1: I like cooking, so I like cooking a meal. Yeah, 728 00:35:19,247 --> 00:35:22,167 Speaker 1: but I missed the domestic chip that was like, oh, 729 00:35:22,287 --> 00:35:23,727 Speaker 1: folding washing house satisfying. 730 00:35:24,007 --> 00:35:24,487 Speaker 4: You know what? 731 00:35:25,367 --> 00:35:27,327 Speaker 1: Folding washing is my least favorite thing in the world. 732 00:35:27,367 --> 00:35:29,247 Speaker 1: And very often on Sunday there will be a mountain 733 00:35:29,287 --> 00:35:31,687 Speaker 1: of clean washing in our house as big as the house. 734 00:35:32,247 --> 00:35:34,487 Speaker 1: And recently I went round to a friend's house who 735 00:35:34,727 --> 00:35:37,727 Speaker 1: has this beautiful house and a beautiful renovation on the 736 00:35:37,727 --> 00:35:40,127 Speaker 1: house and everything, and I was like, she so got 737 00:35:40,167 --> 00:35:42,447 Speaker 1: it together right, but she's got a laundry, a big, 738 00:35:42,487 --> 00:35:45,327 Speaker 1: fancy laundry. She hadn't closed the laundry door and I 739 00:35:45,367 --> 00:35:48,047 Speaker 1: got a peek inside. It was up to the ceiling 740 00:35:48,127 --> 00:35:52,527 Speaker 1: with messy, clean clothes, and I was like, this is 741 00:35:52,567 --> 00:35:54,047 Speaker 1: what I want to see. I want to see this 742 00:35:54,127 --> 00:35:56,447 Speaker 1: on Instagram. I want to see this everywhere, Like I 743 00:35:56,487 --> 00:35:58,847 Speaker 1: didn't have time to fold my washing, and you know what, 744 00:35:58,887 --> 00:36:00,967 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean I'm having a mental breakdown. 745 00:36:01,207 --> 00:36:02,007 Speaker 5: I reckon too. 746 00:36:02,727 --> 00:36:06,087 Speaker 3: There was something in this article that mentioned a class element, 747 00:36:06,127 --> 00:36:08,647 Speaker 3: and I think this is very true. So I my 748 00:36:10,167 --> 00:36:13,407 Speaker 3: was so tidy, like those beds where I remember she 749 00:36:13,407 --> 00:36:15,207 Speaker 3: would like tuck me in at night and I couldn't breathe, 750 00:36:15,247 --> 00:36:16,887 Speaker 3: like you know those She just knew how to properly 751 00:36:16,927 --> 00:36:17,367 Speaker 3: make a bed. 752 00:36:17,407 --> 00:36:18,447 Speaker 5: And she was always. 753 00:36:18,127 --> 00:36:19,767 Speaker 4: Hospital corner, hospital corners. 754 00:36:20,007 --> 00:36:22,047 Speaker 3: She would never sit down when we're all there because 755 00:36:22,087 --> 00:36:24,167 Speaker 3: she'd be tidying around you like she was just really 756 00:36:24,167 --> 00:36:26,847 Speaker 3: into it. And I think there was a class element 757 00:36:27,127 --> 00:36:29,927 Speaker 3: to that because maybe you can't afford a really beautiful 758 00:36:29,927 --> 00:36:32,047 Speaker 3: house or a lot of space. Firstly, if you don't 759 00:36:32,087 --> 00:36:33,247 Speaker 3: have a lot of space, you gotta clean more. 760 00:36:33,287 --> 00:36:33,847 Speaker 5: You just do. 761 00:36:34,607 --> 00:36:36,927 Speaker 3: But you have a mot and you have a cloth, 762 00:36:37,287 --> 00:36:41,287 Speaker 3: and there's pride in keeping your space looking a certain way. 763 00:36:41,407 --> 00:36:45,247 Speaker 1: And also there's a respectability push there because that mind. 764 00:36:45,327 --> 00:36:47,847 Speaker 1: Nana was exactly the same and came from a very 765 00:36:47,887 --> 00:36:49,887 Speaker 1: working class family where you don't have much, but it's 766 00:36:49,967 --> 00:36:54,407 Speaker 1: like people think we're dirty, like people think that we 767 00:36:54,447 --> 00:36:57,327 Speaker 1: don't look after it. It's a very intense pride thing 768 00:36:57,407 --> 00:37:00,567 Speaker 1: that like my house will be spotless. And I'm old 769 00:37:00,687 --> 00:37:03,487 Speaker 1: enough to remember when washing powder adverts and cleaning product 770 00:37:03,527 --> 00:37:06,807 Speaker 1: adverts were literally woman comes round to other woman's house, 771 00:37:06,887 --> 00:37:09,247 Speaker 1: goes in the kitchen and wipes her finger over account 772 00:37:09,447 --> 00:37:13,607 Speaker 1: and goes like that level of sort of judgment and 773 00:37:13,647 --> 00:37:17,287 Speaker 1: that cleanliness means so much more somehow than whether or 774 00:37:17,327 --> 00:37:19,567 Speaker 1: not you wipe down a counter spare, whether you've got 775 00:37:19,607 --> 00:37:22,007 Speaker 1: it together. We've been in that for a very long time. 776 00:37:22,167 --> 00:37:24,447 Speaker 2: I don't think I have the same pressure as the 777 00:37:24,487 --> 00:37:27,767 Speaker 2: two of you do with cleaning though, because and I'm 778 00:37:27,767 --> 00:37:30,407 Speaker 2: gonna flex my single privilege here, go for it, because 779 00:37:30,967 --> 00:37:33,447 Speaker 2: like there are so many people still who'll come to 780 00:37:33,487 --> 00:37:36,327 Speaker 2: my house because I live alone, and see this as 781 00:37:36,407 --> 00:37:39,687 Speaker 2: still a phase of my life. Like see this as 782 00:37:39,727 --> 00:37:42,207 Speaker 2: like M's like single living by herself right now. It's 783 00:37:42,247 --> 00:37:43,327 Speaker 2: so cute, so quirky. 784 00:37:43,367 --> 00:37:44,207 Speaker 4: Look season she. 785 00:37:44,207 --> 00:37:46,687 Speaker 2: Only has like one egg and one bottle of Vodkna fridge, 786 00:37:46,807 --> 00:37:49,607 Speaker 2: Like how funny, Like she's messy, She's like, but then 787 00:37:49,727 --> 00:37:51,847 Speaker 2: if I feel like I move to like the next stage. 788 00:37:51,847 --> 00:37:54,407 Speaker 2: If I do and live with someone, then I'll get 789 00:37:54,447 --> 00:37:57,767 Speaker 2: the tagline as homemaker and that I won't be able 790 00:37:57,807 --> 00:37:59,847 Speaker 2: to be untidy. So I feel like, right now I 791 00:37:59,847 --> 00:38:01,487 Speaker 2: can get away with being untidy. 792 00:38:01,567 --> 00:38:04,327 Speaker 1: This is why back to sulogamy, which we talked about 793 00:38:04,327 --> 00:38:06,487 Speaker 1: in the first segment on the show about marrying yourself, 794 00:38:06,767 --> 00:38:09,407 Speaker 1: You're like, people think my singleness is a season. I'm 795 00:38:09,447 --> 00:38:11,887 Speaker 1: passing through, like a moment in time that I'm passing through. 796 00:38:12,127 --> 00:38:15,007 Speaker 1: The people who were going, hold on a minute, I'm 797 00:38:15,047 --> 00:38:16,887 Speaker 1: not saying that I'm in a waiting room. I'm not 798 00:38:16,927 --> 00:38:19,007 Speaker 1: saying I'm in a lack. This is where I am. 799 00:38:19,087 --> 00:38:22,047 Speaker 1: This is my life. I'm making it official. But I 800 00:38:22,047 --> 00:38:24,127 Speaker 1: think you're right because I remember one of the most 801 00:38:24,247 --> 00:38:27,767 Speaker 1: unexpected effects of becoming a parent more than a couple 802 00:38:27,807 --> 00:38:30,807 Speaker 1: for me, actually, was that all these domestic things that 803 00:38:30,847 --> 00:38:33,127 Speaker 1: i'd sort of managed to sidestep because it's not really 804 00:38:33,167 --> 00:38:37,007 Speaker 1: my jam, suddenly become important. Can you bake cupcakes to 805 00:38:37,047 --> 00:38:39,927 Speaker 1: take to mother's group? Having friends who say things like, oh, 806 00:38:39,967 --> 00:38:41,967 Speaker 1: it's not raining, wonderful, I can do my washing, and 807 00:38:42,007 --> 00:38:44,327 Speaker 1: I would be like, that is the last thing I 808 00:38:44,407 --> 00:38:46,287 Speaker 1: was thinking about. You know what I mean? I was thinking, yeah, 809 00:38:46,327 --> 00:38:47,807 Speaker 1: it's not raining, I want to go for a walk 810 00:38:47,887 --> 00:38:49,767 Speaker 1: or I want to do something else, but you know 811 00:38:49,767 --> 00:38:52,047 Speaker 1: what I mean. And I suddenly was exposed to a 812 00:38:52,127 --> 00:38:54,687 Speaker 1: level of domesticity that I think I'd thought I'd got 813 00:38:54,687 --> 00:38:57,207 Speaker 1: away with. But it was lurking. 814 00:38:57,407 --> 00:39:00,327 Speaker 3: And you see it, like even someone would walk into 815 00:39:00,327 --> 00:39:02,767 Speaker 3: my house and it was really really messy, then that 816 00:39:02,887 --> 00:39:05,287 Speaker 3: judgment would be associated with me and not Luca. Yeah, 817 00:39:05,287 --> 00:39:08,207 Speaker 3: it's the same when Luna's dressed really badly, which Luca 818 00:39:08,247 --> 00:39:10,407 Speaker 3: always does, like dress are in these awful outfits and 819 00:39:10,447 --> 00:39:11,727 Speaker 3: someone will look at me and go, what have you 820 00:39:11,727 --> 00:39:12,207 Speaker 3: put her in? 821 00:39:12,527 --> 00:39:14,087 Speaker 5: And I'm like, I didn't know that. 822 00:39:14,287 --> 00:39:15,247 Speaker 4: You know, You're so right. 823 00:39:15,327 --> 00:39:17,127 Speaker 1: Next time a friend comes over and I see the 824 00:39:17,207 --> 00:39:18,927 Speaker 1: judgment in their eyes, I'm just going to say, sorry, 825 00:39:18,967 --> 00:39:20,087 Speaker 1: Brent didn't have time to clean. 826 00:39:20,527 --> 00:39:21,967 Speaker 4: Yes, I love that. 827 00:39:23,247 --> 00:39:25,927 Speaker 3: Before you go, Holly, you'll be very jealous that we 828 00:39:25,967 --> 00:39:28,807 Speaker 3: did this while you were away. But Maya m and 829 00:39:28,847 --> 00:39:32,327 Speaker 3: I unpacked our new favorite show that I'm sure the 830 00:39:32,367 --> 00:39:35,207 Speaker 3: Outlouders have now had a chance to watch. Nobody wants this, 831 00:39:35,327 --> 00:39:37,127 Speaker 3: and not only did we do, because I spilled it 832 00:39:37,167 --> 00:39:41,327 Speaker 3: a brilliant episode kind of analyzing it we looked at 833 00:39:41,367 --> 00:39:42,927 Speaker 3: because a lot of people have messaged me or and 834 00:39:42,967 --> 00:39:44,567 Speaker 3: I and said this is. 835 00:39:45,007 --> 00:39:48,407 Speaker 1: Yes, I know that's what I was most keeping here about. 836 00:39:48,567 --> 00:39:52,007 Speaker 3: We talked about the parallels. In fact, my mum had 837 00:39:52,047 --> 00:39:55,007 Speaker 3: something to say that she decided to throw in, so 838 00:39:55,767 --> 00:39:58,127 Speaker 3: you can listen to that via the link in our 839 00:39:58,167 --> 00:39:58,607 Speaker 3: show notes. 840 00:39:58,647 --> 00:40:02,447 Speaker 1: Oh I love that show so much. A massive thank 841 00:40:02,487 --> 00:40:05,087 Speaker 1: you to you our out Louder friends for listening to 842 00:40:05,127 --> 00:40:07,807 Speaker 1: today's show and every show you listened to check the 843 00:40:07,807 --> 00:40:10,207 Speaker 1: show notes for any links and we talked about today. 844 00:40:10,287 --> 00:40:11,967 Speaker 1: If you're wondering what we were on about, go and 845 00:40:12,007 --> 00:40:14,847 Speaker 1: have a nosey there, including of course that subtep that 846 00:40:14,927 --> 00:40:17,847 Speaker 1: I didn't get to espouse my beliefs on. Also find 847 00:40:17,927 --> 00:40:20,247 Speaker 1: us on Instagram and TikTok, carry on the chat in 848 00:40:20,247 --> 00:40:21,887 Speaker 1: the out Louders Facebook group, and we're going to be 849 00:40:21,967 --> 00:40:23,207 Speaker 1: back in your ears tomorrow. 850 00:40:23,527 --> 00:40:25,167 Speaker 5: Bye. 851 00:40:25,807 --> 00:40:28,687 Speaker 1: Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you 852 00:40:28,847 --> 00:40:31,727 Speaker 1: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing 853 00:40:31,727 --> 00:40:34,167 Speaker 1: to Mamma Mia is the very best way to do it. 854 00:40:34,367 --> 00:40:36,207 Speaker 1: There's a link in the episode description