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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking

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Speaker 2: about on Wednesday, the twenty ninth of October. I'm Holly

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Speaker 2: Wainwright and a big thank you to all the out

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Speaker 2: louders who told me I had to do wordle yesterday.

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Speaker 2: Some of us are still clinging onto work, still doing

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Speaker 2: word or I'm still doing word Does that make me

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Speaker 2: very basic?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I just can't believe that. For me, it was a real,

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Speaker 4: like two week trend. Do you do word?

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Speaker 1: I don't do it anymore.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes I do World or Oh do you know about

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Speaker 3: that high level? No, it's just fun because you get

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Speaker 3: to learn about weird places. I'm Amelia Lester.

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Speaker 4: And I'm Jesse Stephens.

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Speaker 2: And here's what made our agenda for today. Is Nicole

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Speaker 2: really wearing a revenge dress? And does Lily Allen's very

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Speaker 2: messy divorce come with a real estate high in I'm

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Speaker 2: harboring a celebrity split conspiracy theory?

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Speaker 1: Oh, that is my very favorite.

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Speaker 3: I want to talk about whether cutting out friendships might

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Speaker 3: just be the ultimate life.

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Speaker 4: Hack and one of my anxiety dreams came true this week.

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Speaker 4: If you are having a rough time at work, if

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Speaker 4: you've had a rough few days, I have two stories

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Speaker 4: to make you feel much much better about how great

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Speaker 4: you are at your job.

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Speaker 2: But first, in case you missed it, I've got some

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Speaker 2: scoreless gossip. And look, this is very scoreless because there

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Speaker 2: is no photographic evidence of what I'm about to tell you.

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Speaker 4: What evidence are you bringing with you today?

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Speaker 2: Holly sources report someone on the internet set I came

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Speaker 2: a few times. Chris Martin may or may not be

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Speaker 2: dating Sophie Turner. Now, just a little refresher for everybody

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Speaker 2: in case you're like, who and what Chris Martin? We

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Speaker 2: don't need to explain, do we?

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Speaker 4: When?

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Speaker 1: Is that? That's what he's mostly known for.

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Speaker 2: Only recently broken up with one of your girls College Johnson. Ye,

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Speaker 2: Sophie Turner. I like to think of her as Chaos.

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Speaker 2: I like her a lot. Is she definitely chaos?

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Speaker 4: Definitely, She's Game of Thrones. And she split from.

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Speaker 2: Joe Jonas Joe Jonas and then and that was all,

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Speaker 2: you know, whatever it was, and they had a couple

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Speaker 2: of kids, got a couple of kids together. I still

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Speaker 2: remember their wedding pictures because they had like a fabulous,

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Speaker 2: like ravy, young person's kind of wedding and stuff. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: they broke up. That all happened, and then she's been

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Speaker 2: dating the impossibly named, very posh guy called Peregrine Pierson

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Speaker 2: and he's an aristocrat from England, and they were This

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Speaker 2: is what I mean about chaos, which I love about

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Speaker 2: her most recently seen at somebody's fancy wedding, bickering and

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Speaker 2: arguing between feverish snogs on the dance floor.

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Speaker 3: I hope they weren't actually feverish. That sounds a bit contagious.

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Speaker 2: Mingling sweat. Anyway, Sauces say that Chris and Sophie have

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Speaker 2: been seen out on secret dates, and this is very

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Speaker 2: exciting for everybody because apparently Sophie's a big fan of

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Speaker 2: Chris Is. Back in twenty twenty when she was still

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Speaker 2: with the Jonas, he got Chris to record a video

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Speaker 2: message for Sophie. Wants like, Hey, I'm with your husband

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Speaker 2: at a restaurant and I wanted to say hi, happy

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Speaker 2: birthday whatever, and Sophie Turner like melted and was like,

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Speaker 2: oh my God, it's Chris Martin and started to cry. Okay,

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Speaker 2: she may or may not be dating.

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Speaker 1: That's such a deep cut. I'm impressed.

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Speaker 2: Do we What do we think about this new parent?

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Speaker 3: Can I say that every time I hear about Chris

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Speaker 3: Martin dating someone, it's like a mad lib like.

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Speaker 1: I'm always like, that's so weird.

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Speaker 2: His taste is interesting, taste is very good.

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Speaker 4: I feel like he'd be so romantic, like he'd write

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Speaker 4: a song about you. I think there's a depth to

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Speaker 4: Chris Martin. I am profoundly attracted to I reckon he'd

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Speaker 4: be a great boyfriend.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I like the son of Peregreen Pierce.

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Speaker 2: Chris is forty eight, Sophie is twenty nine. I know

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Speaker 2: this isn't important. They're just numbers, but you know, just

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Speaker 2: for the files. And also in my defense about bringing schorelus.

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Speaker 2: Remember when we did some scoreless about Katie Perry and

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Speaker 2: Justin Trudeau and they're basically married.

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Speaker 1: Now, how right we were.

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Speaker 4: You might think you're having a bad day at work recently.

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Speaker 4: I told Holly about this. I'm not sure if I

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Speaker 4: told you earlier.

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Speaker 1: I was this in the group chat you have with

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Speaker 1: Lea without me.

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Speaker 4: It actually wasn't a real person. I was meant to

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Speaker 4: have a very important meeting with a very important person

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Speaker 4: at three pm, and I checked my phone at four

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Speaker 4: pm to a message that said, hey, Jesse, are you

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Speaker 4: still coming? And it was that sinking feeling. It has

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Speaker 4: kept me up at night. It's drue in weeks of

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Speaker 4: my life like just so so stressful. But two stories

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Speaker 4: this week have come up that make me feel better

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Speaker 4: about my own ineptitude towards my job. The first, a

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Speaker 4: number of high school students from eight different high schools

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Speaker 4: in Queensland were taught the wrong subject for their ancient

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Speaker 4: history exam. They were meant to live.

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Speaker 2: They were taught like cooking.

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Speaker 4: No, no, this is the thing right. They were meant

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Speaker 4: to learn about Julius Caesar, but they were accidentally taught

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Speaker 4: a whole topic, a whole module on Augustus Caesar, who

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Speaker 4: was very much a different person.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm not sure I know who Augusta.

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Speaker 4: One of them was the first emperor of the Roman

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Speaker 4: got that empire, and one of them wasn't. Yeah, and

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Speaker 4: neither have really anything to do with Caesar. Salads, Oh okay,

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Speaker 4: you can tell her didn't do well school and teachers

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Speaker 4: worked out the era two days before the exam. Two

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Speaker 4: days one school organized a cram session and went, you

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Speaker 4: know what, let's just all sit in a room and

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Speaker 4: try and get across this Augustus fellow. Wait, no, Julius,

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Speaker 4: we have to get across this Julius fellow. And tried

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Speaker 4: to prepare them.

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Speaker 1: But I keep.

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Speaker 4: Imagining that there was one teacher or employee from the

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Speaker 4: Department of Education that was meant to send out an

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Speaker 4: email or a doc. Right, they were meant to update

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Speaker 4: a doc. There were men to do a thing, and

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Speaker 4: they accidentally wrote Augustus instead of Julius. And now someone

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Speaker 4: has gone on stress leave. Am I right or am

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Speaker 4: I wrong?

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Speaker 2: Definitely right.

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Speaker 4: There is another story that is doing the rounds. This

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Speaker 4: is the second person having a very bad day at

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Speaker 4: work on Wednesday of last week. The Bureau of Meteorology or.

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Speaker 2: The Bomb, the bomb. It will always be called the bomb,

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Speaker 2: even though I know they don't like it. You're stuck

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Speaker 2: with it, exactly with it.

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Speaker 4: It's the bomb. It launched its first major website revamp

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Speaker 4: in twelve years. Great. I think May is about to

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Speaker 4: do a bit of revamp. You need to evolve, you

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Speaker 4: need to evolve right, like with my eyeliner, exactly right, exactly.

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Speaker 4: It costs four point one million dollars. It was meant

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Speaker 4: to be sleek and modern in its redesign.

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Speaker 2: What could go wrong?

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Speaker 4: What ensued has been described by a staffer at the

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Speaker 4: Bomb as an absolute shit show, which is not how

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Speaker 4: you want your big project.

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Speaker 3: This is a source source.

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Speaker 2: It's chatting about storm that you could have seen coming

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Speaker 2: on the old Bomb, yes, but you won't see coming

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Speaker 2: on the new Bomb website.

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Speaker 4: Look, have you ever made a website so bad you

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Speaker 4: find yourself being pulled aside by the personally? I haven't.

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Speaker 4: Here are some of the issues, all right. They decided

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Speaker 4: to launch this new website, which was really They said

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Speaker 4: there'd been some testing, but not proper testing at the

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Speaker 4: very beginning of the Australian storm and bushfire season, high

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Speaker 4: stakes moment. As a result, farmers don't know if it's

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Speaker 4: going to rain. Fishermen in the sea don't know what

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Speaker 4: the wind speeds are in Queensland. Yes, they were in

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Speaker 4: the sea, in the.

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Speaker 2: Sea checking their bombers.

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Speaker 4: How sexist to me that I called them fisher fishing

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Speaker 4: people in the sea. Oh my goodness, check it couldn't

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Speaker 4: check the wind speeds. In Queensland, residents checked the site

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Speaker 4: which said there are no storms coming, and they said,

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Speaker 4: I'm looking out my window and there are hailstones the side.

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Speaker 2: Of the golf balls, ruining my hat, Darlings.

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Speaker 4: One town in Brisbane called Kubulcher a little bit disappeared

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Speaker 4: from the website. They forgot about Kibulcher. They've got some Moa,

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Speaker 4: they've got Papa New Guinea, but that small town. If

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Speaker 4: you needed to know, if you needed an umbrella today,

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Speaker 4: now we forgot you off. To be clear, not having

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Speaker 4: a functional bomb website can literally be life threatening to Australians.

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Speaker 4: Like I think it's something like eight million Australians used

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Speaker 4: all the time. There are people who are in the

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Speaker 4: midst of natural disasters who need these updates and we

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Speaker 4: often say here when we fuck up, which is often

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Speaker 4: we're not saving lives. Someone at the bomb could be

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Speaker 4: The Federal government has seen it.

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Speaker 1: The fact that you keep calling them the bombs while

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Speaker 1: you're reprimanding them. You know what that's doing to them, right,

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Speaker 1: you know it's the bear, the hero? Is that so hard?

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Speaker 1: The Bureau it's not.

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Speaker 4: They will always be the bomb in the bomb, and look,

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Speaker 4: the federal government has stepped in and they've said no seriously,

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Speaker 4: except it's really bad. And some man or woman is

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Speaker 4: trying to defend themselves in a meeting right now.

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Speaker 2: I feel so sorry for them, because you know, they

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Speaker 2: know they're getting the blame, and they know that they

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Speaker 2: had actually been saying to Greg or whoever the lead

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Speaker 2: was like, for Ages, I don't think people are like that.

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Speaker 2: We've made hale black instead of red, or ye are

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Speaker 2: the people are gonna be like it? And Greg was like,

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Speaker 2: don't be a stick in the mud, evolve or die, yes,

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Speaker 2: swim with the tides. We've got to change blah blah

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Speaker 2: blah blah blah. And now you're copying it. Greg's like,

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Speaker 2: I told you, I told you they wouldn't like it.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what they remind me of the bomb?

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Speaker 3: They remind me of that friend that's always trying to

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Speaker 3: change up everything about themselves and telling you that they're this, mea.

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Speaker 1: They're MEA or there Liz Gilbert.

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Speaker 3: They're kind of the Liz Gilbert of government departments, always like, no,

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Speaker 3: we've changed, We've changed where the Bureau they changed the

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Speaker 3: color of hale from black, which everybody kind of understood

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Speaker 3: is ominous.

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Speaker 1: To yellow, which is cheery.

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Speaker 4: Well it looks sunny.

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Speaker 1: Just stop.

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Speaker 5: We like what you do.

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Speaker 6: Keep it.

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Speaker 4: This is absolutely fine. When Instagram doesn't up change, we

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Speaker 4: get really angry because we're like, I don't just want

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Speaker 4: reels or whatever. But at least Instagram again isn't saving lives.

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Speaker 4: They're mucking around with things and they're like, oh, look

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Speaker 4: at you guys resistant to change, and we're like, no,

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Speaker 4: you've left out portions of the country and no one

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Speaker 4: knows if it's raining. It's very stressful for us. And look,

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Speaker 4: it's only Wednesday, and that person having a bad week

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Speaker 4: just can't wait for the weekend. Holly, you love to you.

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Speaker 2: You used to be a manager.

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Speaker 4: I mean, can you just give Because we don't know

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Speaker 4: this person who created the website is likely a listener.

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Speaker 4: Probably any words of encouragement to them or the person

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Speaker 4: from the Department of Education who, like you, doesn't know

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Speaker 4: the difference. Betwen Julius say, it's the words of encouragement.

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Speaker 3: And then what about the residents of Kabulta who are

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Speaker 3: listening to this. We're sending love to.

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Speaker 2: Them, We definitely are, but I just knowing how you

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Speaker 2: know bureaucratic levels work. I just know that the person

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Speaker 2: who's going to be getting all the blame for this

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Speaker 2: is probably worth speaking up a meeting but being told

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Speaker 2: to shushy yeah for quite a long time, and they

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Speaker 2: know this is going to be their LinkedIn challenge for

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Speaker 2: a decade to come. Now, do I admit that I

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Speaker 2: was part of the team that redesigned the website.

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Speaker 1: I've got an idea. Say that you redesigned the bureau's

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Speaker 1: website and none will know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah it's true.

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Speaker 2: So not the bomb?

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Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, haven't you heard of it?

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Speaker 3: Ch?

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Speaker 2: It would be kind of fun not to make light

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Speaker 2: of this, but to decide what color all the weather

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Speaker 2: should be? Like what color should hail be? Really like?

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Speaker 2: What color is hale? It's like pale gray butt read

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Speaker 2: very well.

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Speaker 4: It used to have dots, which was really clear, and

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Speaker 4: now there are no dots. There's just a general do.

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Speaker 3: You know one weird thing on the Apple weather app?

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Speaker 3: It's a bit of a conspiracy theory in countries with

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Speaker 3: fahrenheit sixty nine is a common temperature, yes, but there's

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Speaker 3: a conspiracy theory that the Apple Weather app doesn't say sixty.

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Speaker 2: Nine really really, that's funny. Sidebar. My son was telling

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Speaker 2: me the other day that very similarly teachers maths teachers

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Speaker 2: will not now set any problems where the answer is

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Speaker 2: sixty seven because of the whole six to seven thing,

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Speaker 2: and any time they mentioned can you imagine being like

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Speaker 2: speaking of people having a bad day. Yeah, my heart

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Speaker 2: goes out to every math teacher in a room full

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Speaker 2: of teenagers or tweens who are just going six seven

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Speaker 2: every time you put some numbers on the movie, so

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Speaker 2: you can't they can't have any more problems where the

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Speaker 2: answer is sixty seven.

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Speaker 3: After the break, one influencer says, friends take up too

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Speaker 3: much time, and at least one person here at mom

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Speaker 3: and me are hard relates. Every now and then, I

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Speaker 3: like to check in on Hannah Nielman's Collerena Farm, right friends.

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Speaker 1: I do it like maybe once a week, just see

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Speaker 1: how she's doing.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing, how's a salad bough?

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Speaker 4: When I missed my meeting the other week, I was like, ah,

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Speaker 4: might just check in on her. She doesn't have well,

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Speaker 4: she wasn't late for anything.

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Speaker 3: No, well, speaking of her, how she structures her days.

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Speaker 3: She recently shared with us what an average week looks like.

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Speaker 5: And Tuesdays, I try to film a real that I'm

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Speaker 5: gonna edit and my post. On Wednesdays we we meet

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Speaker 5: with the directors as a team. On Thursdays, you know,

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Speaker 5: I have my meeting with the marketing team. So every

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Speaker 5: every day looks a little bit different. I don't know

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Speaker 5: if it's well balanced, but it's always a work in progress.

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Speaker 3: So we've made the observation on this show before that

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Speaker 3: trad wives actually do a lot of work in the

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Speaker 3: service of selling their existences as tradwives, and obviously Ballerina

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Speaker 3: Farm is no exception to this. It sounds like she's

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Speaker 3: very busy with her paid employment during the week. But

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Speaker 3: watching this clip, I had another realization, which is that

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Speaker 3: Ballerina Farm never really talks about friends or having friends,

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Speaker 3: like I mean, ideally my week would involve going out

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Speaker 3: for some margs on like a Thursday night, but it

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Speaker 3: doesn't do. No.

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Speaker 4: Trad wives do not. Their friends do not appear in

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Speaker 4: their content. If they have friends, it's not part of don't.

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Speaker 3: And it's interesting because I assumed at first this was

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Speaker 3: maybe just because they don't talk about it, or maybe

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Speaker 3: they're too busy, but it could be a strategy. There's

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Speaker 3: an influencer named Brooke Raybold who is very deep in magaworld.

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Speaker 3: I've been following her for a number of years, and

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Speaker 3: she recently posted something very provocative about cutting out friendship

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Speaker 3: as a way to self optimize. As a mother of

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Speaker 3: five children and as a wife growing.

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Speaker 6: Up, I chase friendship. The more I had, the more

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Speaker 6: full my life would feed. But I never fit in

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Speaker 6: with big, loud circle. I usually clicked with the one

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Speaker 6: person after the sad person I could breathe around. But

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Speaker 6: now I found my dream circle right here in my

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Speaker 6: five built in best friends for land, I married my

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Speaker 6: six plus a business I could get lost in. My

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Speaker 6: life is already full. If I make time for something extra,

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Speaker 6: it has to be worth trading for what I already have.

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Speaker 6: So no, I don't do moms and I don't thrive

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Speaker 6: in small top not because I'm cooled, but because life

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Speaker 6: is short.

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Speaker 3: It's pretty ruthless, but listening to it, I have to

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Speaker 3: admit it had a certain logic. Jesse, you don't have

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Speaker 3: a lot going on right now, so I'm wondering if

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Speaker 3: you're really leaning into your friendships more fully.

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Speaker 4: Isn't it funny? My algorithm is serving me a lot

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Speaker 4: of this content. She is not an outlier. This is

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Speaker 4: part of a trend that I am seeing of women

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Speaker 4: saying I am a mum and I don't have friends

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Speaker 4: and I don't feel ashamed about it. Or the general

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Speaker 4: sentiment is your husband is your best friend. Like you

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Speaker 4: do have a friend, it's your husband. So the idea

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Speaker 4: is that the family unit is closed and that you

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Speaker 4: get everything you could possibly need from your family, right.

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Speaker 4: And I'm trying to offer the most generous interpretation for

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Speaker 4: this because when I think about my friendships, the emotion

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Speaker 4: closest to the surface is guilt. I feel bad about

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Speaker 4: my friendships most of the time. I feel as though

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Speaker 4: I am not a good friend. I feel as though

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Speaker 4: when we talk about all the balls that we're trying

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Speaker 4: to carry, that is certainly one that you drop.

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Speaker 2: Because you're in the season of early parenthood.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I'm finding it really, really hard. I had

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Speaker 4: a cry over the weekend where I saw two of

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Speaker 4: my closest friends. I saw them and only saw them

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Speaker 4: for an hour, and for that hour, my toddler was

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Speaker 4: being very demanding and we didn't speak to each other.

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Speaker 2: So hard.

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Speaker 4: It's really and then you go home, and I was like,

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Speaker 4: I miss them. I miss my friends so much, and

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Speaker 4: I feel like shit. And there is a sense that

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Speaker 4: when you feel bad about your friendships that you can

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Speaker 4: kind of switch it to my friendships make me feel bad.

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Speaker 4: And what we do sometimes is I think we retroactively

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Speaker 4: decide that something's a choice. I can totally see how

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Speaker 4: at a busy time when you go, right, I'm trying

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Speaker 4: to prioritize absolutely my children, absolutely, my marriage, absolutely my

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Speaker 4: career and doing a little bit of exercise and cleaning

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Speaker 4: my house and all of that, and you look around

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Speaker 4: and go, I can't remember the last time I saw

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Speaker 4: a friend. That there is something almost empowering or freeing

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Speaker 4: about going oh, I chose that it's alleviating guilt and

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Speaker 4: shame that I think is just another thing that women carry,

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Speaker 4: which is I do friendships really badly.

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Speaker 2: I think most women, particularly parents, but not only parents,

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Speaker 2: don't see their friends as much as they'd like. It's

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Speaker 2: something that we often get as feedback about our show

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Speaker 2: is that they're like, oh, I miss my friends because

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Speaker 2: I don't see them so much. Because x y zed

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Speaker 2: and you guys make me feel like I've had a

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Speaker 2: conversation like that is something that people tell us because

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Speaker 2: I think that friends fall to the bottom of the

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Speaker 2: list a lot of the time because it's almost seen

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Speaker 2: as selfish, like if you're dealing with children and work

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Speaker 2: and running a house in inverted commas, because I'm always

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Speaker 2: confused about quite what that means, but apparently it's a

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Speaker 2: thing running a house, keeping your relationship, going all those things,

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Speaker 2: then wanting to go for margs, Amelia, to your point,

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Speaker 2: or non alcoholic beverages or coffee seems like a bit indulgent,

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Speaker 2: a bit like is that to the main aims of

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Speaker 2: our family? I think there are two things here, though,

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Speaker 2: and you've both touched on one of them, which is

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Speaker 2: the stuff we're being served. And thank you for introducing

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Speaker 2: me to this, lady, Amelia.

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Speaker 1: Because I now have a whole new trajecy.

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Speaker 2: Like some of this content is very much coming from

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Speaker 2: a conservative Christian US viewpoint and without wanting to overstep,

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00:18:34,581 --> 00:18:38,821
Speaker 2: like controlling men and controlling systems, never like women getting

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Speaker 2: together because there's an element of bad influence danger thee

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Speaker 2: like a controlling man in a relationship. And obviously I'm

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Speaker 2: not suggesting that about these women's husbands, but I just

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00:18:47,581 --> 00:18:50,341
Speaker 2: mean anecdotally, We've all would have seen this in our lives.

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00:18:50,821 --> 00:18:53,982
Speaker 2: Doesn't like the girlfriends. The girlfriends a bad influences. The

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Speaker 2: girlfriends might talk about what their relationships look like, or

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Speaker 2: what their houses look like, or they might offer opinions

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Speaker 2: about their relationship that are, you know, not great. It's

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Speaker 2: something from a playbook of a narcissistic, coercive dude. So

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Speaker 2: there's that side of this, which is about isolating a

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Speaker 2: woman to think that the home is everything. But then,

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Speaker 2: as you've said, Jesse, there's just the very practical nature

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Speaker 2: of how much time and energy you have and you

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Speaker 2: do have to prioritize. And so clearly, Amelia, you do

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Speaker 2: prioritize friendships. How do you do that like practically?

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Speaker 1: Well, I feel conflicted about it.

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Speaker 3: It's funny that Jesse mentioned that when she thinks of

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Speaker 3: her friendship, she thinks of guilt. And Jesse's guilt comes

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Speaker 3: from the place that she feels she's not maintaining them properly.

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Speaker 3: And if I'm really honest with you, my guilt comes

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Speaker 3: from a place of wondering if I have the balance

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Speaker 3: right between how much time I'm spending with my family

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Speaker 3: versus how much time I'm doing things like spending time

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Speaker 3: with my friends, or you could put other things in

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Speaker 3: that bucket. Exercising, you know, scrolling Reddit. Yeah, it's a

403
00:19:56,661 --> 00:20:01,942
Speaker 3: favorite activity here. So I'm actually fascinated by people who

404
00:20:02,742 --> 00:20:06,021
Speaker 3: are able to be a little bit ruthless about how

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Speaker 3: they spend the time, a little bit more considered, maybe

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Speaker 3: considered as a better way of putting it, People who

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Speaker 3: are able to be practical and upfront about the fact that,

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Speaker 3: you know what, right now, I just don't have time

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Speaker 3: for this particular dimension of my life. And this came

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Speaker 3: up the other day because I was talking to friend

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Speaker 3: of the pod and new beauty host Lee Campbell, who

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Speaker 3: is my life idol in many ways, and she said

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Speaker 3: something that really kind of made me stop in my tracks.

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Speaker 3: She said, I just don't have time for friends right now.

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Speaker 3: And I really admired the honesty with which she said

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Speaker 3: that she's not trying to people please, she's not trying

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Speaker 3: to pack every single thing in in this season of

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Speaker 3: life right now, She's saying I don't have time right

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Speaker 3: now for my friends. And I asked her about it

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Speaker 3: afterwards because I wanted to check she was okay with

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Speaker 3: me talking about it on the podcast, and she was.

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Speaker 3: She said that her friends don't have time either. She says,

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Speaker 3: they've all got small children, old parents, lots of work.

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Speaker 3: They've tried to make a date for February, but even

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Speaker 3: now people are like, I can't do that date. I

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Speaker 3: can't do that date, and it's starting to look too hard.

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Speaker 3: And she feels conflicted about that too. I'm not saying

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Speaker 3: that she feels completely happy with where she's landed, but

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Speaker 3: there's something liberating, I imagine in just being able to say,

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Speaker 3: in this season, that's not my priority.

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Speaker 2: But there's a danger there, right because not for Lee.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not speaking specifically to Lee, and I

433
00:21:23,702 --> 00:21:27,262
Speaker 2: also know that Lee has this very core, tight group

434
00:21:27,302 --> 00:21:29,422
Speaker 2: of mates that will still be there when they all

435
00:21:29,462 --> 00:21:32,381
Speaker 2: lift their heads in this season. But the danger is,

436
00:21:32,502 --> 00:21:34,501
Speaker 2: and when we talk to women about friendships a lot,

437
00:21:34,621 --> 00:21:38,022
Speaker 2: and when you're in different seasons, is will your friends

438
00:21:38,101 --> 00:21:41,022
Speaker 2: be there when you've decided, oh, it's time again now

439
00:21:41,302 --> 00:21:43,021
Speaker 2: Like my kids are a bit older and they need

440
00:21:43,101 --> 00:21:45,222
Speaker 2: me a little less. I can leave them at home,

441
00:21:45,621 --> 00:21:47,461
Speaker 2: I can do whatever, all works backed off a bit

442
00:21:47,581 --> 00:21:49,581
Speaker 2: or whatever, and now I have time to see you.

443
00:21:50,302 --> 00:21:52,782
Speaker 2: When this lady decides that she's got time to see

444
00:21:52,782 --> 00:21:55,222
Speaker 2: her friends again. What if her friends have all moved on?

445
00:21:55,661 --> 00:21:57,502
Speaker 3: And also you make a really good point, which is

446
00:21:57,542 --> 00:22:00,222
Speaker 3: that Lee does have that close group of friends. I

447
00:22:00,381 --> 00:22:03,982
Speaker 3: feel like my friendship model is more satellite friends, and

448
00:22:04,141 --> 00:22:07,341
Speaker 3: you can't let the satellite friendships kind of wither on

449
00:22:07,422 --> 00:22:10,581
Speaker 3: the vine because you don't have that group to support it.

450
00:22:10,821 --> 00:22:12,981
Speaker 3: If I go a wall on a sort of single

451
00:22:13,101 --> 00:22:15,661
Speaker 3: friend versus a group of friends, it's much harder to

452
00:22:15,702 --> 00:22:16,702
Speaker 3: pick it up afterwards.

453
00:22:17,101 --> 00:22:19,581
Speaker 2: It is interesting because I've always thought of myself as

454
00:22:19,702 --> 00:22:22,022
Speaker 2: social and I loved my friends, and particularly when I

455
00:22:22,061 --> 00:22:24,821
Speaker 2: lived in Sydney and had young kids, my friends were

456
00:22:24,901 --> 00:22:26,941
Speaker 2: family in lots of ways, as we've talked about before,

457
00:22:27,422 --> 00:22:31,061
Speaker 2: But very often now if I have a weekend where

458
00:22:31,101 --> 00:22:33,502
Speaker 2: it is just me and the family, I'm very happy,

459
00:22:33,861 --> 00:22:36,982
Speaker 2: Like I don't know if that's age. I don't know

460
00:22:37,022 --> 00:22:39,061
Speaker 2: if it's just the season I'm in with like a

461
00:22:39,101 --> 00:22:40,982
Speaker 2: lot of travel and being busy, so it feels like

462
00:22:41,061 --> 00:22:43,981
Speaker 2: a treat to be at home, or whether it's because

463
00:22:44,061 --> 00:22:46,262
Speaker 2: I don't know whether my friendships have shifted. I think

464
00:22:46,581 --> 00:22:49,022
Speaker 2: I can almost see that appeal in a way that

465
00:22:49,101 --> 00:22:50,581
Speaker 2: I never would have been able to see that appeal

466
00:22:50,661 --> 00:22:51,141
Speaker 2: ten years old.

467
00:22:51,462 --> 00:22:54,302
Speaker 4: Yeah, simplifying And the latest graph I saw because there's

468
00:22:54,302 --> 00:22:59,461
Speaker 4: a lot about the midlife squeeze and friendships falling off

469
00:22:59,502 --> 00:23:02,022
Speaker 4: a cliff, and they say that it peaks at about eighteen,

470
00:23:02,141 --> 00:23:03,982
Speaker 4: which makes sense. I think we can. I think about

471
00:23:03,982 --> 00:23:06,141
Speaker 4: my eighteenth and I go, who are all those people

472
00:23:06,262 --> 00:23:08,342
Speaker 4: that I knew even my twenty first Like I had

473
00:23:08,821 --> 00:23:11,621
Speaker 4: this massive group of friends and acquaintances, and that was

474
00:23:11,661 --> 00:23:14,621
Speaker 4: my whole life. Socializing was my whole life. And apparently

475
00:23:15,022 --> 00:23:17,461
Speaker 4: it is just on a steady decline from about eighteen.

476
00:23:17,982 --> 00:23:21,181
Speaker 4: It hits its lowest point at around thirty nine and

477
00:23:21,381 --> 00:23:25,941
Speaker 4: stays there until your eighties. Which is interesting that that graph,

478
00:23:26,022 --> 00:23:28,302
Speaker 4: And there might be other data, but it sort of

479
00:23:28,381 --> 00:23:31,821
Speaker 4: suggests that when the kids do leave home, there isn't

480
00:23:32,222 --> 00:23:35,222
Speaker 4: this enormous kind of and I know that, the kind

481
00:23:35,262 --> 00:23:38,701
Speaker 4: of empty nester moment. There's a lot of loneliness in

482
00:23:38,821 --> 00:23:42,182
Speaker 4: that because you then look around and go, oh, we'll

483
00:23:42,222 --> 00:23:43,101
Speaker 4: hang on weight at all.

484
00:23:43,022 --> 00:23:46,221
Speaker 2: My We're taking up lawn bowls, we're doing chair yoga.

485
00:23:46,702 --> 00:23:48,342
Speaker 2: We need to rebuild a circle.

486
00:23:48,782 --> 00:23:49,542
Speaker 1: Holy, I have.

487
00:23:49,661 --> 00:23:52,381
Speaker 3: Bad news to you, because I think you basically are

488
00:23:52,462 --> 00:23:56,381
Speaker 3: agreeing here with magas a gray Bolt. She quotes in

489
00:23:56,821 --> 00:24:01,341
Speaker 3: that same Instagram post a male influencer called Alex Homosey,

490
00:24:01,462 --> 00:24:02,861
Speaker 3: who I'm not familiar with you.

491
00:24:03,302 --> 00:24:04,542
Speaker 4: I'd heard his name before.

492
00:24:04,621 --> 00:24:07,141
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he's kind of man a sphere adjacent.

493
00:24:07,341 --> 00:24:09,982
Speaker 3: He says, the older you get, the fewer for you have,

494
00:24:10,422 --> 00:24:13,942
Speaker 3: not because you're less social, but because you have higher standards.

495
00:24:14,182 --> 00:24:16,101
Speaker 1: Holly Holly Waynwright.

496
00:24:15,742 --> 00:24:17,542
Speaker 2: I don't know about that. I don't know that I

497
00:24:17,621 --> 00:24:21,781
Speaker 2: have well, okay, generous read I mean clearly I am

498
00:24:21,861 --> 00:24:24,141
Speaker 2: on my journey to becoming a Traadwise, there's no question.

499
00:24:24,821 --> 00:24:27,181
Speaker 1: Yes, running a household once, Yeah, for all.

500
00:24:27,302 --> 00:24:29,462
Speaker 2: I mean whatever that as I say, whatever that means.

501
00:24:29,702 --> 00:24:33,341
Speaker 2: As I've gotten older, have I definitely gone. Without wanting

502
00:24:33,381 --> 00:24:37,902
Speaker 2: to sound awful like that particular relationship doesn't really add

503
00:24:37,982 --> 00:24:41,542
Speaker 2: anything either way. I'm fine if we don't catch up

504
00:24:41,581 --> 00:24:45,941
Speaker 2: for coffee. Yes, would I also feel amazingly sad to

505
00:24:47,022 --> 00:24:49,622
Speaker 2: sort of come out of this busy time and realize

506
00:24:49,661 --> 00:24:52,821
Speaker 2: that I didn't have a circle anymore. Absolutely so, I

507
00:24:52,901 --> 00:24:54,581
Speaker 2: think we're back to the guilt and shame that Jesse

508
00:24:54,661 --> 00:24:54,942
Speaker 2: is fair.

509
00:24:55,422 --> 00:24:57,662
Speaker 4: I don't think it is higher standards. I'm not sure

510
00:24:57,702 --> 00:24:59,502
Speaker 4: that it is. I think that as people go in

511
00:24:59,581 --> 00:25:03,901
Speaker 4: different directions, and I mean whether they move into state,

512
00:25:04,222 --> 00:25:06,982
Speaker 4: or some have children and some don't, or whatever. Like

513
00:25:07,101 --> 00:25:10,581
Speaker 4: life circumstances just change. People think think that if you

514
00:25:10,621 --> 00:25:13,101
Speaker 4: don't foster it, if you don't water it, it doesn't grow,

515
00:25:13,341 --> 00:25:15,341
Speaker 4: and that you can just look around and go I lost.

516
00:25:15,462 --> 00:25:17,302
Speaker 4: I think about friends I lost in my twenties. I'd

517
00:25:17,302 --> 00:25:19,302
Speaker 4: love to pick up the phone and call, but it

518
00:25:19,462 --> 00:25:20,381
Speaker 4: just feels too awkward.

519
00:25:20,861 --> 00:25:25,222
Speaker 3: So do you feel, having heard brook Reywold's perspective, do

520
00:25:25,381 --> 00:25:27,222
Speaker 3: you this life.

521
00:25:27,141 --> 00:25:30,821
Speaker 2: Less from her? Because as we've acknowledged, we need to restate,

522
00:25:31,222 --> 00:25:33,181
Speaker 2: there is a political agenda for some of this.

523
00:25:33,702 --> 00:25:34,262
Speaker 1: Yes there is.

524
00:25:34,861 --> 00:25:37,462
Speaker 3: For Brook, there certainly is. I think Ballerina farm less

525
00:25:37,462 --> 00:25:39,821
Speaker 3: so but for Brook there is. But nonetheless, Jesse, do

526
00:25:39,861 --> 00:25:42,542
Speaker 3: you feel a little bit liberated, a little bit relieved

527
00:25:42,901 --> 00:25:44,901
Speaker 3: to hear it said out loud that maybe you're just

528
00:25:45,022 --> 00:25:47,742
Speaker 3: in a season where you don't have time for friends.

529
00:25:48,141 --> 00:25:49,621
Speaker 4: I mean, I think that that's the appeal of a

530
00:25:49,702 --> 00:25:52,782
Speaker 4: lot of even the tradwife discussion sometimes is it gives

531
00:25:52,982 --> 00:25:55,302
Speaker 4: women permission to make a certain set of choices.

532
00:25:55,821 --> 00:25:56,621
Speaker 2: But I don't.

533
00:25:56,901 --> 00:25:58,821
Speaker 4: I feel as though it is something that I really,

534
00:25:58,901 --> 00:26:01,821
Speaker 4: really prioritize, but I've got to be careful that it

535
00:26:01,861 --> 00:26:04,542
Speaker 4: doesn't just become another stick to beat myself with. It's

536
00:26:04,581 --> 00:26:07,782
Speaker 4: got to be like, Okay, how can we realistically fit

537
00:26:07,861 --> 00:26:09,501
Speaker 4: this in? And maybe it's not seeing them as much

538
00:26:10,022 --> 00:26:11,861
Speaker 4: but still making an effort.

539
00:26:12,141 --> 00:26:14,941
Speaker 2: In a moment. I have been quietly tending to a

540
00:26:15,022 --> 00:26:18,622
Speaker 2: conspiracy theory about the big celebrity splits that are obsessing

541
00:26:18,742 --> 00:26:20,982
Speaker 2: us right now, and it's time to take it out

542
00:26:20,982 --> 00:26:22,821
Speaker 2: for a spin with you smart out louders.

543
00:26:23,782 --> 00:26:27,102
Speaker 4: Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of MUMMYA

544
00:26:27,141 --> 00:26:30,661
Speaker 4: out Loud just from MUMMYA. Subscribers follow the link in

545
00:26:30,702 --> 00:26:32,702
Speaker 4: the show notes to get your daily dose of out

546
00:26:32,742 --> 00:26:35,981
Speaker 4: Loud and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

547
00:26:39,861 --> 00:26:42,302
Speaker 2: We are living in a golden age or in a tacky,

548
00:26:42,341 --> 00:26:46,861
Speaker 2: sticky mess, depending on your perspective of full disclosure celebrity

549
00:26:46,901 --> 00:26:50,821
Speaker 2: splits at the moment right Two very different cases in

550
00:26:50,942 --> 00:26:56,422
Speaker 2: points this week, Nicole Kidman's Revenge Dress and the ongoing

551
00:26:56,581 --> 00:27:00,621
Speaker 2: fallout from reading Lily Allen's diary I mean listening to

552
00:27:00,821 --> 00:27:05,942
Speaker 2: her album. Two very different strategies. One is sending messages

553
00:27:05,942 --> 00:27:09,421
Speaker 2: about their feelings post divorce. The old fashioned way pointing

554
00:27:09,422 --> 00:27:13,861
Speaker 2: out messages through fashion, and the other the very twenty

555
00:27:13,982 --> 00:27:17,341
Speaker 2: twenty five way notes app confessional through song.

556
00:27:17,621 --> 00:27:20,502
Speaker 3: I will say straight men are notoriously good at decoding

557
00:27:20,581 --> 00:27:21,382
Speaker 3: fashion message.

558
00:27:23,341 --> 00:27:27,302
Speaker 2: Amelia tell me a bit about Kidman's revenge dress, because

559
00:27:27,341 --> 00:27:30,222
Speaker 2: she was at this Vogue World, which I don't know,

560
00:27:31,262 --> 00:27:32,221
Speaker 2: constant happening.

561
00:27:32,502 --> 00:27:37,381
Speaker 3: She's like a Shanella she as Lerman was involved. Vogue

562
00:27:37,381 --> 00:27:40,421
Speaker 3: World is some kind of streaming event. I think we

563
00:27:40,581 --> 00:27:43,102
Speaker 3: have to refer to it as a streaming event from

564
00:27:43,141 --> 00:27:46,742
Speaker 3: here on out. And she wore this stress that immediately

565
00:27:46,782 --> 00:27:50,382
Speaker 3: evoked for me Diana's famous revenge dress, which some would

566
00:27:50,422 --> 00:27:55,262
Speaker 3: say is the og revenge dress, black strapless, crepe figure hugging.

567
00:27:55,502 --> 00:27:56,542
Speaker 1: Is that fair to say she.

568
00:27:56,702 --> 00:28:00,821
Speaker 2: Wore that Diana? That is, she famously wore that to

569
00:28:01,022 --> 00:28:04,022
Speaker 2: an event in London on the night that I think

570
00:28:04,141 --> 00:28:06,942
Speaker 2: either her divorce was finalized, or Childs and Camilla's tapes

571
00:28:06,982 --> 00:28:08,421
Speaker 2: were coming out, or one of the big moments I

572
00:28:08,422 --> 00:28:08,821
Speaker 2: can't remember.

573
00:28:09,542 --> 00:28:12,341
Speaker 4: I feel the infidelity, like in the wake of infidelity,

574
00:28:12,462 --> 00:28:13,462
Speaker 4: she came out looking like that.

575
00:28:13,621 --> 00:28:15,581
Speaker 2: It was one of the big moments in their divorce,

576
00:28:16,061 --> 00:28:18,302
Speaker 2: and she came out looking like that. And also at

577
00:28:18,341 --> 00:28:22,262
Speaker 2: the time that was seen as quite a racy frock

578
00:28:22,341 --> 00:28:24,581
Speaker 2: for a royal to wear. They didn't generally bear their

579
00:28:24,661 --> 00:28:28,821
Speaker 2: shoulders that kind of stuff, and it just took every headline,

580
00:28:29,222 --> 00:28:32,101
Speaker 2: every front page was just Diana's revenge dress.

581
00:28:32,302 --> 00:28:36,022
Speaker 3: And for me, this Nicole revenge dress, you know, fairly

582
00:28:36,101 --> 00:28:39,822
Speaker 3: or unfairly, it hit different for me because the Diana

583
00:28:39,942 --> 00:28:42,622
Speaker 3: revenge dress, the sort of sentiment around.

584
00:28:42,422 --> 00:28:46,302
Speaker 1: That when that occurred was you go girl. It was great.

585
00:28:46,422 --> 00:28:50,342
Speaker 3: It was her showing that she didn't need child, that

586
00:28:50,502 --> 00:28:53,982
Speaker 3: she had moved on from his betrayal. She looked amazing

587
00:28:54,142 --> 00:28:56,142
Speaker 3: doing it. It was very clear what her message was

588
00:28:56,262 --> 00:28:59,822
Speaker 3: with it. But when Nicole came out in her revenge dress,

589
00:29:00,182 --> 00:29:03,382
Speaker 3: and again, rightly or wrongly, my mind goes to the comparison.

590
00:29:04,661 --> 00:29:07,461
Speaker 3: I have to admit that I felt a little exhausted.

591
00:29:07,822 --> 00:29:11,182
Speaker 3: I feel like I know too much about this separation already,

592
00:29:11,462 --> 00:29:14,701
Speaker 3: Like I've been getting nothing but subliminal messages from Nicole

593
00:29:14,862 --> 00:29:17,421
Speaker 3: for weeks now, and I just don't want to hear

594
00:29:17,502 --> 00:29:18,742
Speaker 3: about it from her anymore.

595
00:29:19,302 --> 00:29:21,342
Speaker 2: Do you think that you don't want to hear about

596
00:29:21,342 --> 00:29:23,782
Speaker 2: it from a one The woman has literally not said

597
00:29:23,862 --> 00:29:26,542
Speaker 2: one thing, She has not said one point, but she

598
00:29:26,702 --> 00:29:28,502
Speaker 2: is sending messages. I'm not arguing with that.

599
00:29:28,742 --> 00:29:31,782
Speaker 3: She is sending messages. So her first public appearance after

600
00:29:31,902 --> 00:29:34,582
Speaker 3: the split was announced was a Paris Fashion Week, which

601
00:29:34,582 --> 00:29:37,342
Speaker 3: she attended with her daughter's message number one definitely message

602
00:29:37,382 --> 00:29:40,022
Speaker 3: and look, Nicole is free to go to Paris with

603
00:29:40,182 --> 00:29:43,262
Speaker 3: her daughters. That sounds so lovely and I'm so glad

604
00:29:43,342 --> 00:29:44,701
Speaker 3: for her that she got to do that. But the

605
00:29:44,822 --> 00:29:48,622
Speaker 3: output she chose was very pointed. She wore jeans and

606
00:29:48,742 --> 00:29:51,022
Speaker 3: a white shirt to a fashion show. It was a

607
00:29:51,062 --> 00:29:54,062
Speaker 3: fairly business ye look to me, it's always the message

608
00:29:54,142 --> 00:29:54,862
Speaker 3: back to business.

609
00:29:55,262 --> 00:29:55,382
Speaker 1: Now.

610
00:29:55,462 --> 00:29:57,462
Speaker 3: I will point out that the jeans were cashmere and

611
00:29:57,582 --> 00:29:59,981
Speaker 3: the shirt was custom made in plus seven thousand dollars,

612
00:30:00,062 --> 00:30:03,822
Speaker 3: but the overall look was no nonsense, back to business.

613
00:30:04,022 --> 00:30:06,501
Speaker 3: Nothing to see here, a very different message to now

614
00:30:06,542 --> 00:30:08,502
Speaker 3: what she's telegraphing with the revenge dress.

615
00:30:08,661 --> 00:30:10,542
Speaker 4: I want to analyze a little bit more about the

616
00:30:10,622 --> 00:30:15,262
Speaker 4: Revenge Stress message because so the Vogue World thing was

617
00:30:15,302 --> 00:30:18,662
Speaker 4: all about old Hollywood. There was a theme of old Hollywood, right,

618
00:30:19,142 --> 00:30:23,782
Speaker 4: and the dress was actually incredibly reminiscent of Rita Hayworth,

619
00:30:23,982 --> 00:30:26,421
Speaker 4: who sung a song in the nineteen forties in a

620
00:30:26,542 --> 00:30:29,701
Speaker 4: film called Gilda. The song was called put the Blame

621
00:30:29,782 --> 00:30:33,542
Speaker 4: on Maime, and it's all about not putting the blame

622
00:30:33,782 --> 00:30:36,542
Speaker 4: on women, and she used that song. It was so

623
00:30:37,502 --> 00:30:40,102
Speaker 4: shocking at the time because she used that song to

624
00:30:40,262 --> 00:30:43,582
Speaker 4: say women are being blamed for all the problems men create.

625
00:30:44,262 --> 00:30:47,582
Speaker 4: The song is about revenge, it is about rebellion, and

626
00:30:48,062 --> 00:30:50,182
Speaker 4: it's a moment in the film where she goes from

627
00:30:50,222 --> 00:30:54,982
Speaker 4: being this passive object of desire to an active, defiant

628
00:30:55,142 --> 00:30:56,382
Speaker 4: participant in her own story.

629
00:30:56,862 --> 00:30:59,462
Speaker 2: And the dress if you putry oh.

630
00:30:59,422 --> 00:31:01,462
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, if you put the two dresses next to

631
00:31:01,502 --> 00:31:02,661
Speaker 4: each other identically.

632
00:31:02,742 --> 00:31:04,982
Speaker 2: And also I think she even she sung the song.

633
00:31:05,022 --> 00:31:10,421
Speaker 2: She was officially there to represent the guilda vibe.

634
00:31:10,622 --> 00:31:12,701
Speaker 3: I'm going to go deeper on the fashion law here.

635
00:31:12,822 --> 00:31:15,782
Speaker 3: It's not her first revenge dress. Back in two thousand

636
00:31:15,822 --> 00:31:18,462
Speaker 3: and one at the premiere of the Others, where she

637
00:31:18,582 --> 00:31:21,302
Speaker 3: knew she'd run into Tom Cruise, who she was recently

638
00:31:21,342 --> 00:31:25,502
Speaker 3: separated from. She also wore a black strapless dress that

639
00:31:25,702 --> 00:31:28,982
Speaker 3: many compared to Diana's and which many called a revenge dress.

640
00:31:29,422 --> 00:31:32,942
Speaker 3: So she has form here for trying to convey messages

641
00:31:33,022 --> 00:31:34,342
Speaker 3: to us through her clothing.

642
00:31:34,622 --> 00:31:37,502
Speaker 2: So here's my question about this, So Keith Urban while

643
00:31:37,502 --> 00:31:39,102
Speaker 2: all this has been going on, has been on stage

644
00:31:39,102 --> 00:31:41,782
Speaker 2: every night. He's at work right his tour finishes this Friday.

645
00:31:41,822 --> 00:31:43,222
Speaker 2: He's been on this massive tour.

646
00:31:43,302 --> 00:31:45,302
Speaker 1: When he's serenading someone in his back.

647
00:31:45,222 --> 00:31:48,062
Speaker 2: Well, she disappeared very quickly after that happened. Yes, so

648
00:31:48,142 --> 00:31:50,622
Speaker 2: Maggie Bao, who's the young guitarist who everyone was like,

649
00:31:50,661 --> 00:31:52,622
Speaker 2: she's the other woman. She's the other woman very quickly

650
00:31:52,661 --> 00:31:55,462
Speaker 2: disappeared from the tour. She was never supposed to be

651
00:31:55,702 --> 00:31:58,822
Speaker 2: the official messages part of his official touring band. She

652
00:31:58,982 --> 00:32:00,822
Speaker 2: was just a guest for a few shows. And now

653
00:32:00,862 --> 00:32:04,221
Speaker 2: it's going to differ on now he's got a different

654
00:32:04,342 --> 00:32:08,062
Speaker 2: female guitarist. But it's interesting that, you know, Keith Eurban's

655
00:32:08,102 --> 00:32:10,462
Speaker 2: been going out every night by to business, back to work,

656
00:32:10,502 --> 00:32:12,742
Speaker 2: and no one's questioning what he's wearing or what messages.

657
00:32:12,862 --> 00:32:16,102
Speaker 3: People are questioning when he serenaded Maggie on stage, I

658
00:32:16,182 --> 00:32:17,262
Speaker 3: think there was a lot of question.

659
00:32:17,302 --> 00:32:19,622
Speaker 2: There was also a time when one of the women

660
00:32:19,702 --> 00:32:22,022
Speaker 2: from the crowd, he was doing some crowd work and

661
00:32:22,182 --> 00:32:25,622
Speaker 2: he goes, what's your name, and she goes, you don't

662
00:32:25,661 --> 00:32:27,822
Speaker 2: want to know, and he's like, no, no, I really do,

663
00:32:28,142 --> 00:32:31,462
Speaker 2: and she goes it's Nicole and then she does a

664
00:32:31,502 --> 00:32:36,062
Speaker 2: big comedy faint on stage like ah, anyway, so he's

665
00:32:36,102 --> 00:32:38,701
Speaker 2: been going about his business. Yeah, but funnily enough, his

666
00:32:38,742 --> 00:32:41,542
Speaker 2: fashion choices don't make front page news. What do we

667
00:32:41,702 --> 00:32:44,661
Speaker 2: think would be the ideal scenario for Kidma not to

668
00:32:44,782 --> 00:32:47,421
Speaker 2: be her divorce to be analyzed by every time she

669
00:32:47,462 --> 00:32:48,262
Speaker 2: steps out of the house.

670
00:32:48,302 --> 00:32:51,302
Speaker 3: Look, I think that's so fair, Holly, And look, wouldn't

671
00:32:51,342 --> 00:32:53,702
Speaker 3: we all want to look like that in the wake

672
00:32:53,862 --> 00:32:56,941
Speaker 3: of a terrible breakup. We've all had some version of

673
00:32:57,022 --> 00:33:00,181
Speaker 3: revenge dresses in our lives if we've had breakups, and

674
00:33:00,462 --> 00:33:02,942
Speaker 3: they haven't typically been cashmere Chanelle.

675
00:33:03,022 --> 00:33:04,942
Speaker 1: But you know, if I had the option, I would

676
00:33:05,022 --> 00:33:05,462
Speaker 1: lean into it.

677
00:33:05,742 --> 00:33:07,822
Speaker 3: But I will tell you what my concern is, and

678
00:33:07,942 --> 00:33:11,222
Speaker 3: this is not directed really Nicole so much as the

679
00:33:11,382 --> 00:33:14,102
Speaker 3: Nicole and Lily of it all, and that is that

680
00:33:14,182 --> 00:33:17,982
Speaker 3: I worried that the gossip around celebrities is starting to

681
00:33:18,142 --> 00:33:21,822
Speaker 3: overwhelm what they're famous for. It's almost like with Lily

682
00:33:21,902 --> 00:33:26,622
Speaker 3: in particular, Taylor Swift walked so Lily could run. And

683
00:33:26,702 --> 00:33:29,422
Speaker 3: what I mean by that is we all loved dissecting

684
00:33:29,502 --> 00:33:32,902
Speaker 3: tortured Poet's department to understand her relationship with Joe Alwen

685
00:33:32,942 --> 00:33:34,661
Speaker 3: and then her relationship with Matti Healy.

686
00:33:35,222 --> 00:33:38,262
Speaker 2: And did we lose the music in all of that, Yes,

687
00:33:38,582 --> 00:33:41,142
Speaker 2: to a point, but I would argue that Lily had

688
00:33:41,182 --> 00:33:43,822
Speaker 2: already laid that track like Lily Alan and I want

689
00:33:43,862 --> 00:33:46,382
Speaker 2: to get to my conspiracy theory about Lily, but this

690
00:33:46,661 --> 00:33:49,342
Speaker 2: is not a departure for Lily Alan. Like writing really

691
00:33:49,382 --> 00:33:52,701
Speaker 2: confessional music that you know, basically slags off people around us.

692
00:33:52,742 --> 00:33:54,822
Speaker 2: She's done it famously with her brother when he was young.

693
00:33:55,502 --> 00:33:57,582
Speaker 2: She famously wrote a song about a guy who is

694
00:33:57,622 --> 00:33:59,102
Speaker 2: really bad in bed and always made a sleep on

695
00:33:59,142 --> 00:34:02,742
Speaker 2: the wet pack like. Her lyrical style is very different

696
00:34:02,782 --> 00:34:05,982
Speaker 2: from Taylor Swift's in that it isn't metaphorical. It's just here.

697
00:34:06,222 --> 00:34:08,181
Speaker 4: The difference is, and it is unusual for us to

698
00:34:08,262 --> 00:34:10,942
Speaker 4: know exactly who she's talkt about. I am so in

699
00:34:11,022 --> 00:34:13,382
Speaker 4: two minds about this. On the one hand, every time

700
00:34:13,422 --> 00:34:16,861
Speaker 4: I read about this, or even listen really to any

701
00:34:16,902 --> 00:34:19,062
Speaker 4: of the songs, I feel a little bit like I

702
00:34:19,142 --> 00:34:22,542
Speaker 4: need a shower. I feel as though I am subject

703
00:34:22,622 --> 00:34:24,861
Speaker 4: to details that aren't any of my business, Like I've

704
00:34:24,902 --> 00:34:27,902
Speaker 4: got my ear pressed up against a wall. Maybe I

705
00:34:27,942 --> 00:34:32,382
Speaker 4: would feel more comfortable if I knew that it was

706
00:34:32,422 --> 00:34:35,102
Speaker 4: shared by both of them, But I suppose the fact

707
00:34:35,181 --> 00:34:38,462
Speaker 4: that there is one version of events. And I've been

708
00:34:38,542 --> 00:34:41,221
Speaker 4: reading this brilliant analysis and it was someone saying she's

709
00:34:41,302 --> 00:34:44,222
Speaker 4: a dueler for divorce. Women need a dueler for divorce,

710
00:34:44,261 --> 00:34:47,542
Speaker 4: and this is the great divorce album. And I keep

711
00:34:47,661 --> 00:34:50,262
Speaker 4: checking if David Harbor's turn comments back on on Instagram

712
00:34:50,622 --> 00:34:52,902
Speaker 4: because he's had to just disappear.

713
00:34:53,102 --> 00:34:56,261
Speaker 2: Okay, welcome to my conspiracy. Okay, this album isn't even

714
00:34:56,302 --> 00:34:58,741
Speaker 2: a week old, right, this story has a long way

715
00:34:58,781 --> 00:35:01,502
Speaker 2: to go. And although, as we discussed on Monday, it

716
00:35:01,661 --> 00:35:04,942
Speaker 2: was written from a wound, it hasn't actually been released

717
00:35:04,942 --> 00:35:07,221
Speaker 2: from a wound. It was recorded in December last year.

718
00:35:07,542 --> 00:35:10,542
Speaker 2: The split was announced in February this year. As you're

719
00:35:10,582 --> 00:35:12,582
Speaker 2: seeing in all the press roll out right now, all

720
00:35:12,622 --> 00:35:15,301
Speaker 2: the shoots for interview, behind the scenes videos of her

721
00:35:15,382 --> 00:35:18,661
Speaker 2: making it. This is a strategic launch of a piece

722
00:35:18,701 --> 00:35:21,102
Speaker 2: of art, right, So it might feel like she just

723
00:35:21,342 --> 00:35:23,982
Speaker 2: book and then put it out, but that's not what happened.

724
00:35:24,542 --> 00:35:27,942
Speaker 2: What's interesting to me is that two things, one of

725
00:35:27,982 --> 00:35:29,222
Speaker 2: them is real estate related.

726
00:35:30,862 --> 00:35:34,062
Speaker 4: We did their hollyween right, everybody knows.

727
00:35:35,502 --> 00:35:38,582
Speaker 2: So my real estate related conspiracy is the day after

728
00:35:38,661 --> 00:35:43,062
Speaker 2: we talked about this on Monday, the famous Brooklyn Brownstone

729
00:35:43,142 --> 00:35:47,221
Speaker 2: of the ad video that Amelia dissected so well on

730
00:35:47,302 --> 00:35:51,221
Speaker 2: Monday's show went on the market for eight million dollars.

731
00:35:51,382 --> 00:35:54,741
Speaker 3: This ruined everything for me, Yes, everything. I read that

732
00:35:54,862 --> 00:35:58,022
Speaker 3: and I was like, I am sick of celebrities selling

733
00:35:58,181 --> 00:36:02,262
Speaker 3: me these quote unquote secrets just to sell me things.

734
00:36:02,462 --> 00:36:04,102
Speaker 1: That's that's what they're doing here.

735
00:36:04,462 --> 00:36:07,062
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this brings in another piece. So a has

736
00:36:07,142 --> 00:36:09,381
Speaker 2: a lot of this all been a ruse to get

737
00:36:09,701 --> 00:36:12,102
Speaker 2: pictures of that house back out in the world and

738
00:36:12,221 --> 00:36:13,942
Speaker 2: then sell it for lots of money because it's been

739
00:36:14,022 --> 00:36:17,542
Speaker 2: designed by an absolutely very famous interior designer who's actually

740
00:36:17,622 --> 00:36:19,462
Speaker 2: name checked in one of the songs. One of the

741
00:36:19,542 --> 00:36:21,022
Speaker 2: actual songs references is.

742
00:36:21,142 --> 00:36:23,901
Speaker 1: No, in fact, not one of the songs, the first song,

743
00:36:24,422 --> 00:36:25,262
Speaker 1: the first line.

744
00:36:25,462 --> 00:36:27,582
Speaker 4: So they must have sat down with their real estate

745
00:36:27,661 --> 00:36:30,261
Speaker 4: agent and they went, let's come up with the content plan,

746
00:36:30,382 --> 00:36:32,022
Speaker 4: and Lily said, hear me out all.

747
00:36:32,022 --> 00:36:34,742
Speaker 1: Right, now, Holly, would you buy the house? I'm just curious.

748
00:36:34,862 --> 00:36:36,821
Speaker 2: Shit, Yes, if I had eight million dollars, then I

749
00:36:36,862 --> 00:36:37,741
Speaker 2: lived in New York City.

750
00:36:37,822 --> 00:36:42,381
Speaker 4: I would I hate with my whole self I had

751
00:36:42,462 --> 00:36:44,542
Speaker 4: that house. There are no windows in the bedroom.

752
00:36:44,661 --> 00:36:45,661
Speaker 1: That really freaks me out.

753
00:36:45,701 --> 00:36:48,022
Speaker 3: You know New York City regulation so you cannot call

754
00:36:48,102 --> 00:36:49,582
Speaker 3: something a bed if there is in a window.

755
00:36:50,022 --> 00:36:52,221
Speaker 1: Really some funny business there.

756
00:36:52,221 --> 00:36:54,062
Speaker 4: Do you know that in Australia you can't call something

757
00:36:54,102 --> 00:36:57,502
Speaker 4: a bathroom unless there's a shower. Can't just be a

758
00:36:57,542 --> 00:36:58,542
Speaker 4: toilet anyway.

759
00:36:58,701 --> 00:37:03,582
Speaker 2: Anyway back, I know, look, it's very out there, but

760
00:37:03,781 --> 00:37:05,902
Speaker 2: you know it's been an ad Darling. I would totally

761
00:37:05,982 --> 00:37:08,142
Speaker 2: stuck up for that stuff. So there's a settlement to

762
00:37:08,181 --> 00:37:10,942
Speaker 2: come in this divorce, no question. It's not finalized, so

763
00:37:11,342 --> 00:37:13,261
Speaker 2: you know Lily probably needs some money from that house.

764
00:37:13,422 --> 00:37:15,982
Speaker 3: It's not finalized. So unlike Nicole and Keith when they

765
00:37:16,062 --> 00:37:20,742
Speaker 3: announced it, they'd already sorted out those Detailsstadis.

766
00:37:19,661 --> 00:37:21,221
Speaker 2: I don't think all the five I mean, obviously there's

767
00:37:21,221 --> 00:37:23,102
Speaker 2: no custody here, but I don't think the financials have

768
00:37:23,181 --> 00:37:25,661
Speaker 2: been settled. Got it on to part two of my

769
00:37:25,781 --> 00:37:28,781
Speaker 2: conspiracy theory, get out the red string, the question of

770
00:37:29,022 --> 00:37:31,981
Speaker 2: David Harbor's right of reply, because I believe it's coming

771
00:37:32,862 --> 00:37:36,382
Speaker 2: Stranger Things season five. It's the finale. Now, I know

772
00:37:36,462 --> 00:37:38,822
Speaker 2: you guys aren't Stranger Things people, but half the world

773
00:37:38,942 --> 00:37:42,142
Speaker 2: has been waiting three years for this. Yes, the press

774
00:37:42,221 --> 00:37:44,861
Speaker 2: tour for this would already be well underway. He will

775
00:37:44,902 --> 00:37:48,182
Speaker 2: have already done lots of interviews, lots of photo shoots,

776
00:37:48,221 --> 00:37:50,382
Speaker 2: him and Winona Ryder, him and the kids. Because he

777
00:37:50,622 --> 00:37:53,301
Speaker 2: plays a really big part in that show. Hopper is

778
00:37:54,022 --> 00:37:57,781
Speaker 2: like the rough but lovable heart and soul of that show, right,

779
00:37:58,502 --> 00:38:01,342
Speaker 2: so he would already have podcast interviews lined up like

780
00:38:01,462 --> 00:38:04,301
Speaker 2: the roll out for Stranger Things. The promo starts on

781
00:38:04,382 --> 00:38:07,941
Speaker 2: November sixth, That is less than two weeks away. Yeah,

782
00:38:08,221 --> 00:38:11,821
Speaker 2: So conspiracy theory very number two is that this is

783
00:38:12,022 --> 00:38:14,421
Speaker 2: very smart because this is Lily's moment. It's not even

784
00:38:14,462 --> 00:38:16,741
Speaker 2: been out for a week. This album, This is Lily, Lily, Lily.

785
00:38:17,102 --> 00:38:19,942
Speaker 2: She's number one all over Spotify. She's like, this is

786
00:38:20,022 --> 00:38:22,862
Speaker 2: a big comeback. She hasn't made any music for a

787
00:38:22,942 --> 00:38:25,942
Speaker 2: really long time. This is her big moment. Everybody's like,

788
00:38:25,982 --> 00:38:28,181
Speaker 2: oh my god, Lily Allan's back. Let's talk about Lily Allen.

789
00:38:28,462 --> 00:38:30,502
Speaker 2: In a week and a half, all anyone's going to

790
00:38:30,542 --> 00:38:33,781
Speaker 2: be talking about is David Harbor, And I think we'll

791
00:38:33,942 --> 00:38:36,982
Speaker 2: see from what happens with that if he disappears from

792
00:38:36,982 --> 00:38:39,341
Speaker 2: that press tour, if it's dark, you know what I mean,

793
00:38:39,661 --> 00:38:42,701
Speaker 2: sort of like Kristen Bell, yes, or that guy from

794
00:38:42,982 --> 00:38:45,062
Speaker 2: the Blake Lively movie, how suddenly he just wasn't in

795
00:38:45,102 --> 00:38:47,982
Speaker 2: any of the Justin Bell, don't ye. So if David

796
00:38:48,102 --> 00:38:52,102
Speaker 2: Harbor isn't visible in anything and he's kind of shuffled

797
00:38:52,142 --> 00:38:55,062
Speaker 2: off and stuff, then I think this is a side swipe.

798
00:38:55,221 --> 00:38:58,382
Speaker 2: This is a you know, takedown. But if he suddenly

799
00:38:58,422 --> 00:39:01,342
Speaker 2: pops up on I don't know, maybe Dax Shepherd or

800
00:39:01,422 --> 00:39:03,542
Speaker 2: maybe not Dak Shepherd give them the Kristen Bell situation.

801
00:39:03,622 --> 00:39:08,142
Speaker 2: But some thinky blokey podcast talking about No, they wouldn't

802
00:39:08,142 --> 00:39:10,501
Speaker 2: go so deep. I don't think, but talk about I've

803
00:39:10,701 --> 00:39:13,181
Speaker 2: had problems with sex addiction. I've been in rehab.

804
00:39:13,661 --> 00:39:13,781
Speaker 3: You know.

805
00:39:13,902 --> 00:39:16,181
Speaker 2: I thought Lily and I had like a very a

806
00:39:16,342 --> 00:39:20,221
Speaker 2: generous dude take on this. Yeah, this is very possible

807
00:39:20,261 --> 00:39:21,301
Speaker 2: that this is part of a play.

808
00:39:21,582 --> 00:39:22,941
Speaker 1: That is the time here.

809
00:39:23,022 --> 00:39:26,381
Speaker 3: It just feels too perfect that they didn't coordinate this right,

810
00:39:26,822 --> 00:39:28,741
Speaker 3: Like she gets at least two weeks in the sun

811
00:39:28,822 --> 00:39:30,622
Speaker 3: by herself before he steps up.

812
00:39:30,701 --> 00:39:34,102
Speaker 2: And then he can go I really wish Lily. Well, yes,

813
00:39:34,142 --> 00:39:36,062
Speaker 2: of course it's awkward for me that her version of

814
00:39:36,142 --> 00:39:38,382
Speaker 2: events is there. There's some untruths in there, you know what.

815
00:39:38,502 --> 00:39:41,142
Speaker 2: That's the famous line from that The Queen said, some

816
00:39:41,342 --> 00:39:43,142
Speaker 2: of our recollections made differ.

817
00:39:43,502 --> 00:39:43,701
Speaker 3: Yeah.

818
00:39:44,022 --> 00:39:46,342
Speaker 2: Yeah, like he could play it that way and go

819
00:39:46,622 --> 00:39:49,102
Speaker 2: I've been getting help for my problems. I've been dealing

820
00:39:49,142 --> 00:39:50,862
Speaker 2: with this for years. Da da da. He could do

821
00:39:50,982 --> 00:39:53,781
Speaker 2: that and stranger things is safe, do you know what

822
00:39:53,862 --> 00:39:54,142
Speaker 2: I mean.

823
00:39:54,502 --> 00:39:56,622
Speaker 4: I'm very curious as to what's going to happen.

824
00:39:56,822 --> 00:39:58,381
Speaker 2: It's got a long way to go yet. I think

825
00:39:59,142 --> 00:40:02,181
Speaker 2: a massive thank you out louders for being here with us.

826
00:40:02,422 --> 00:40:04,982
Speaker 2: You are our friends, we are yours in your ears,

827
00:40:05,661 --> 00:40:07,661
Speaker 2: and big thanks to our fabulous team for putting the

828
00:40:07,701 --> 00:40:12,022
Speaker 2: show together. Remember you can watch us on YouTube always

829
00:40:12,022 --> 00:40:16,262
Speaker 2: admire a Media's Eyeland. We'll be back in your ears tomorrow.

830
00:40:16,502 --> 00:40:19,382
Speaker 3: But before we go, Okay, if you love out Loud,

831
00:40:19,781 --> 00:40:21,902
Speaker 3: I have a sister show that I want you to

832
00:40:22,062 --> 00:40:22,982
Speaker 3: come join me on.

833
00:40:23,382 --> 00:40:24,902
Speaker 1: It's called Parenting.

834
00:40:24,542 --> 00:40:27,102
Speaker 3: Out Loud, and it's where we bring you the week

835
00:40:27,261 --> 00:40:30,902
Speaker 3: in parenting pop culture. So this week, Hailey Beaber's comments

836
00:40:30,902 --> 00:40:34,821
Speaker 3: about motherhood have the Internet losing its mind, and we

837
00:40:34,942 --> 00:40:38,422
Speaker 3: can't stop thinking about the Jennifer Lawrence profile that just

838
00:40:38,542 --> 00:40:41,862
Speaker 3: dropped and what it says about who you become after kids.

839
00:40:42,342 --> 00:40:45,261
Speaker 3: It's the same smart, interesting chat you get here, just

840
00:40:45,502 --> 00:40:48,142
Speaker 3: parenting coded. So search Parenting out.

841
00:40:48,022 --> 00:40:49,062
Speaker 1: Loud and hit follow.

842
00:40:49,261 --> 00:40:51,221
Speaker 4: You'll love it and if you want more of us,

843
00:40:51,741 --> 00:40:57,062
Speaker 4: yesterday's subscriber episode the out Loud has absolutely loved. We

844
00:40:57,862 --> 00:41:00,502
Speaker 4: talked about all the things we refuse to spend my life.

845
00:41:00,542 --> 00:41:03,221
Speaker 4: It was a bit professional, It was a big confessional.

846
00:41:03,542 --> 00:41:07,741
Speaker 4: Em had no time for our cheapness. She called us out.

847
00:41:07,902 --> 00:41:10,622
Speaker 2: She told Jesse to grow up. I love What a

848
00:41:10,701 --> 00:41:13,862
Speaker 2: moment when Emily Burnham tells Jesse to grow On this course.

849
00:41:14,902 --> 00:41:17,502
Speaker 4: There are some really fun breads in the outlaudders where

850
00:41:17,542 --> 00:41:19,862
Speaker 4: people are sharing what they refuse to spend money on.

851
00:41:20,102 --> 00:41:22,062
Speaker 4: But go and listen to that episode. There is a

852
00:41:22,142 --> 00:41:23,262
Speaker 4: link in our show.

853
00:41:23,142 --> 00:41:26,942
Speaker 2: Notes shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If

854
00:41:26,982 --> 00:41:29,181
Speaker 2: you love the show and you want to support us,

855
00:41:29,502 --> 00:41:32,142
Speaker 2: subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to

856
00:41:32,261 --> 00:41:34,582
Speaker 2: do it. There's a link in the episode description