1 00:00:11,149 --> 00:00:13,869 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:14,829 --> 00:00:18,349 Speaker 2: MoMA Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:18,349 --> 00:00:20,069 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:20,269 --> 00:00:23,109 Speaker 1: Hello. I'm Stacy Hicks. I'm the editor of Mamma Mia 5 00:00:23,189 --> 00:00:25,629 Speaker 1: and I'm also the host of our new parenting podcast, 6 00:00:25,749 --> 00:00:29,149 Speaker 1: Parenting out Loud. And this summer, we're curating your listening 7 00:00:29,149 --> 00:00:32,189 Speaker 1: with a healthy dose of culture savvy conversations that parents 8 00:00:32,309 --> 00:00:36,229 Speaker 1: actually want. This holiday season, we're bringing you unmissable episodes 9 00:00:36,349 --> 00:00:39,789 Speaker 1: right here into your podcast playlist. It's your summer listening sorted. 10 00:00:40,229 --> 00:00:42,109 Speaker 1: And if you're looking for more to listen to, every 11 00:00:42,189 --> 00:00:45,069 Speaker 1: Muma Mia podcast is curating some are listening right across 12 00:00:45,109 --> 00:00:48,949 Speaker 1: the network, from pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews. 13 00:00:49,189 --> 00:00:54,749 Speaker 1: There's something for everyone. There's a link in the show notes. 14 00:00:58,229 --> 00:01:00,629 Speaker 2: Welcome to Parenting out Loud, the podcast for people who 15 00:01:00,629 --> 00:01:04,109 Speaker 2: don't always listen to parenting podcasts. We bring you the 16 00:01:04,149 --> 00:01:08,509 Speaker 2: week in culture, trends and news, and if parents are 17 00:01:08,629 --> 00:01:11,949 Speaker 2: thinking about it, we are talking about it. I'm Monique Bowley, 18 00:01:12,229 --> 00:01:13,229 Speaker 2: I'm Amelia Lester. 19 00:01:13,589 --> 00:01:16,029 Speaker 1: I am Stacey Hicks, And first of all, I have 20 00:01:16,109 --> 00:01:18,389 Speaker 1: some breaking news that I just saw as we walked 21 00:01:18,429 --> 00:01:20,829 Speaker 1: into this record is the first time I've ever been 22 00:01:20,829 --> 00:01:23,509 Speaker 1: ahead of a trend in my life. Eyebags are cool. Now, 23 00:01:24,029 --> 00:01:27,029 Speaker 1: what what does that mean? Well, lots of women are 24 00:01:27,029 --> 00:01:29,989 Speaker 1: going and getting surgery to remove their lower bleff, which 25 00:01:30,069 --> 00:01:34,349 Speaker 1: is essentially their lower eyebags. And now Jessica Defino's newsletter 26 00:01:34,469 --> 00:01:38,429 Speaker 1: is saying, no, no, it's French. It's cool to have eyebags, 27 00:01:38,589 --> 00:01:39,749 Speaker 1: So we're cool. 28 00:01:40,269 --> 00:01:44,029 Speaker 3: Right, That's great to know. I have another fashion trend. 29 00:01:44,069 --> 00:01:46,869 Speaker 3: I need to mention it, okay, or rather not a 30 00:01:46,909 --> 00:01:49,469 Speaker 3: fashion trend denim jackets. Now, I'm not calling you out. 31 00:01:49,549 --> 00:01:51,669 Speaker 3: I have a den and jacket that I'm wearing today. 32 00:01:51,709 --> 00:01:52,909 Speaker 3: I just didn't want to match with you. 33 00:01:53,069 --> 00:01:55,149 Speaker 1: That's right. But I am in a denim jacket right now, 34 00:01:55,149 --> 00:01:58,029 Speaker 1: which I love. But you are about to say, well. 35 00:01:57,869 --> 00:02:01,549 Speaker 3: I have read that. Apparently they're cringe and hopelessly millennial, 36 00:02:01,709 --> 00:02:03,789 Speaker 3: and jen Z is making fun of us for them. 37 00:02:03,829 --> 00:02:04,469 Speaker 3: Have you heard that? 38 00:02:04,669 --> 00:02:07,069 Speaker 1: I have heard it, and I just wear it anyway. 39 00:02:07,109 --> 00:02:10,069 Speaker 1: I'm wearing my ankle socks, I'm wearing my big denim jacket. 40 00:02:10,189 --> 00:02:11,389 Speaker 1: I don't care what they say. 41 00:02:11,469 --> 00:02:13,309 Speaker 3: Do you think that there are some denim jackets that 42 00:02:13,309 --> 00:02:14,509 Speaker 3: are better than others? Yes? 43 00:02:14,589 --> 00:02:16,469 Speaker 1: I do think so. I think the ones that they 44 00:02:16,469 --> 00:02:19,069 Speaker 1: think a cringe are like the cropped denim jacket. 45 00:02:19,109 --> 00:02:21,389 Speaker 3: Oh okay, well you know that we wear on a 46 00:02:21,469 --> 00:02:21,949 Speaker 3: night out. 47 00:02:22,069 --> 00:02:24,469 Speaker 1: That's what they're talking about. Mine's bagging and oversize. So 48 00:02:24,549 --> 00:02:27,709 Speaker 1: I'm cool. I'm maintaining along with my eyebags, got my 49 00:02:27,789 --> 00:02:29,629 Speaker 1: baggy jacket. Everything's fine. 50 00:02:29,749 --> 00:02:33,549 Speaker 2: I just bought a denim jacket yesterday off deep. Obviously 51 00:02:33,589 --> 00:02:35,869 Speaker 2: that's why they're selling it. It was probably some gen 52 00:02:35,989 --> 00:02:41,429 Speaker 2: z going and I'm like, oh, that's cool, all right. 53 00:02:41,469 --> 00:02:42,789 Speaker 2: Coming up on today's show. 54 00:02:42,829 --> 00:02:45,309 Speaker 1: The guy who created Adolescents has an idea for how 55 00:02:45,389 --> 00:02:48,869 Speaker 1: dads can connect with their sons. It's beautiful, but one 56 00:02:48,869 --> 00:02:50,109 Speaker 1: of us hates it. 57 00:02:50,509 --> 00:02:53,029 Speaker 3: There is a kid's party photo that was taken in 58 00:02:53,109 --> 00:02:57,549 Speaker 3: Sydney recently that has ignited a great Australian debate. Can 59 00:02:57,669 --> 00:02:59,469 Speaker 3: you bags a park table? 60 00:03:00,309 --> 00:03:02,989 Speaker 2: And it's Alpha clock? And what I mean by that 61 00:03:03,269 --> 00:03:05,549 Speaker 2: is it's the time of year that I remember I'm 62 00:03:05,549 --> 00:03:08,829 Speaker 2: the last mum on earth without a little spy living 63 00:03:08,909 --> 00:03:12,269 Speaker 2: in our house. I want to talk traditions. Are there 64 00:03:12,269 --> 00:03:15,229 Speaker 2: some traditions we should embrace and are there others that 65 00:03:15,269 --> 00:03:16,749 Speaker 2: we should just leave alone? 66 00:03:17,389 --> 00:03:20,909 Speaker 3: But first celebrities are making us feel bad about our 67 00:03:20,949 --> 00:03:24,429 Speaker 3: screen time habits again. Miranda Kerr was on a podcast 68 00:03:24,429 --> 00:03:27,029 Speaker 3: this week. You may remember her as the winner of 69 00:03:27,069 --> 00:03:30,509 Speaker 3: the Dolly Model contest back in the day. Victoria's Secret Angel. 70 00:03:30,709 --> 00:03:34,669 Speaker 3: Now married to Evan Spiegel, who was the founder of Snapchat, 71 00:03:34,949 --> 00:03:38,029 Speaker 3: living in a palatial manchion in southern California. Here she 72 00:03:38,309 --> 00:03:41,189 Speaker 3: is talking about her screen time policy. 73 00:03:41,549 --> 00:03:45,909 Speaker 4: Well, my husband is very anti screens for the young ones. 74 00:03:46,189 --> 00:03:48,709 Speaker 4: I've said to him, Look, something that feels good to 75 00:03:48,749 --> 00:03:51,389 Speaker 4: me is just like maybe on the weekend or a 76 00:03:51,389 --> 00:03:54,709 Speaker 4: special occasion, curling up with the kids like this six 77 00:03:54,749 --> 00:03:57,029 Speaker 4: and seven year old and the teenager if he wants 78 00:03:57,069 --> 00:03:59,509 Speaker 4: to join in and like snuggling up and watching a movie. 79 00:03:59,589 --> 00:04:01,349 Speaker 1: And he's like, okay, but not every weekend. 80 00:04:01,429 --> 00:04:05,109 Speaker 4: Although my seven year old did just do a little 81 00:04:05,309 --> 00:04:08,549 Speaker 4: a learning program that he could do over the holidays 82 00:04:08,629 --> 00:04:13,069 Speaker 4: and he learnt, like a little mindcraft like thing, and 83 00:04:13,309 --> 00:04:16,109 Speaker 4: so he was, you know, he obviously had screen time there. 84 00:04:16,509 --> 00:04:19,469 Speaker 4: But then when we talk about my teenager, our teenager 85 00:04:19,669 --> 00:04:24,109 Speaker 4: who is fourteen almost fifteen, so I have the parental 86 00:04:24,149 --> 00:04:27,549 Speaker 4: controls on his phone, and then on top of that, 87 00:04:28,029 --> 00:04:31,389 Speaker 4: he doesn't have social media, which we think is important, 88 00:04:31,429 --> 00:04:33,709 Speaker 4: but he does have Snapchat, which is the only way 89 00:04:33,749 --> 00:04:35,069 Speaker 4: he communicates with his friends. 90 00:04:35,389 --> 00:04:38,669 Speaker 3: I could not love this more. You thought I was 91 00:04:38,669 --> 00:04:39,309 Speaker 3: going to say I hate it. 92 00:04:39,509 --> 00:04:41,589 Speaker 1: I really did think that you were about to go 93 00:04:41,629 --> 00:04:42,189 Speaker 1: on and ran. 94 00:04:43,269 --> 00:04:47,189 Speaker 3: That's why I'm delighted by it. To recap, Miranda and 95 00:04:47,189 --> 00:04:50,589 Speaker 3: Evans's younger kids don't have screen time, not even movies 96 00:04:50,829 --> 00:04:54,189 Speaker 3: because they're very, very bad. But her son does play 97 00:04:54,189 --> 00:04:58,549 Speaker 3: a little thing called Minecraft. Her older kid doesn't have 98 00:04:58,789 --> 00:05:02,189 Speaker 3: any kind of social media because that would be terrible, 99 00:05:02,749 --> 00:05:08,589 Speaker 3: but he does have Snapchat. I love it. What's the problem? 100 00:05:08,669 --> 00:05:10,909 Speaker 2: Once it's a bit all over shop, which you know 101 00:05:10,949 --> 00:05:15,469 Speaker 2: we all are with screen time. It's extremely relatable, extremely relatable. 102 00:05:15,829 --> 00:05:18,709 Speaker 2: What I think is really interesting about this is she 103 00:05:18,829 --> 00:05:22,349 Speaker 2: paints this picture where her husband, the founder of Snapchat, 104 00:05:22,429 --> 00:05:26,749 Speaker 2: is very anti screens. And that's an interesting thing that 105 00:05:26,789 --> 00:05:30,829 Speaker 2: we've seen before with these big tech pros Bill Gates, 106 00:05:31,069 --> 00:05:35,909 Speaker 2: Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg do not let their kids on screens. 107 00:05:35,989 --> 00:05:38,509 Speaker 2: And it is this kind of do as I say, 108 00:05:38,549 --> 00:05:41,349 Speaker 2: but not as I do in reverse. Oh, it's fine 109 00:05:41,389 --> 00:05:44,029 Speaker 2: for everyone else, but not for my kids. It's this 110 00:05:44,349 --> 00:05:46,709 Speaker 2: I know what's behind the curtain, and I don't want 111 00:05:46,709 --> 00:05:48,669 Speaker 2: that for my kids, and that is scary. 112 00:05:49,029 --> 00:05:51,989 Speaker 3: Yeah, let's unpack what that actually means. The people who 113 00:05:52,029 --> 00:05:55,789 Speaker 3: know the most about these apps and devices, who jerry 114 00:05:55,869 --> 00:05:58,309 Speaker 3: rigged them to make us all addicted to them and 115 00:05:58,429 --> 00:06:00,549 Speaker 3: know all the tips and tricks on how to do that, 116 00:06:00,949 --> 00:06:03,469 Speaker 3: they are the very people who are making clear to 117 00:06:03,509 --> 00:06:05,869 Speaker 3: their kids that they should not go near them. Yeah. 118 00:06:06,229 --> 00:06:08,389 Speaker 1: I'm so surprised you like this, because aren't you just 119 00:06:08,509 --> 00:06:12,029 Speaker 1: irritated by the privilege flex to say no? But I 120 00:06:12,069 --> 00:06:15,149 Speaker 1: can afford my children the time and the activities and 121 00:06:15,389 --> 00:06:16,869 Speaker 1: to not have to be on screen. 122 00:06:17,549 --> 00:06:21,789 Speaker 3: Here's why I loved it. Every parent has these arbitrary 123 00:06:21,909 --> 00:06:24,789 Speaker 3: and actually very silly rules that make them feel better 124 00:06:24,869 --> 00:06:27,509 Speaker 3: about their parenting style, Like, oh, I don't let my 125 00:06:27,589 --> 00:06:30,509 Speaker 3: kids have screen time except minecraft. Oh I don't let 126 00:06:30,589 --> 00:06:32,389 Speaker 3: them use social media. Look such a little bit of 127 00:06:32,429 --> 00:06:33,909 Speaker 3: snapschat and not a monster. 128 00:06:34,589 --> 00:06:36,629 Speaker 2: And he's on it all the time. She says, he's 129 00:06:36,629 --> 00:06:37,509 Speaker 2: on it all day long. 130 00:06:37,749 --> 00:06:40,269 Speaker 1: Oh god, Yeah, I love the little branded mentioned there 131 00:06:40,269 --> 00:06:43,509 Speaker 1: for her husband's company, Like, oh, of course, but Snapchat's 132 00:06:43,509 --> 00:06:47,149 Speaker 1: absolutely fine. Snapchat's great. So it's quite ironic. 133 00:06:47,509 --> 00:06:50,429 Speaker 3: I heard an interesting quote from Bill Gates daughter, Phoebe, 134 00:06:50,589 --> 00:06:52,549 Speaker 3: she's been in the news a bit lately. She's in 135 00:06:52,549 --> 00:06:55,109 Speaker 3: her twenties and she has just launched a shopping app 136 00:06:55,149 --> 00:06:57,589 Speaker 3: where apparently it helps you get the best price for things, 137 00:06:57,709 --> 00:07:00,509 Speaker 3: querying why Bill Gates daughter needs to find the best 138 00:07:00,549 --> 00:07:04,349 Speaker 3: price for things. But anyway, she was talking about when 139 00:07:04,389 --> 00:07:07,309 Speaker 3: she was growing up, her father made a distinction between 140 00:07:07,389 --> 00:07:09,749 Speaker 3: how he had used technology as a kid and how 141 00:07:09,789 --> 00:07:11,949 Speaker 3: he wants his kids to use it. He said, when 142 00:07:11,949 --> 00:07:14,789 Speaker 3: he was a kid, he experimented with technology and that 143 00:07:14,909 --> 00:07:16,589 Speaker 3: is what led him to become a billionaire and the 144 00:07:16,589 --> 00:07:19,669 Speaker 3: founder of Microsoft. But he didn't want his kids experimenting 145 00:07:19,669 --> 00:07:22,149 Speaker 3: the technology because he already knows what's wrong with it, 146 00:07:22,389 --> 00:07:24,909 Speaker 3: and so for them, he wanted them to quote grow 147 00:07:25,069 --> 00:07:28,269 Speaker 3: into it thoughtfully. And I just reckon, We've got to 148 00:07:28,309 --> 00:07:30,109 Speaker 3: listen to these tech bros when they tell us this. 149 00:07:30,269 --> 00:07:31,949 Speaker 3: It's very revealing, Amelia. 150 00:07:32,029 --> 00:07:34,549 Speaker 2: These tech bros are rich, and they have their time 151 00:07:34,829 --> 00:07:37,629 Speaker 2: and the resources to have their kids not on screens. 152 00:07:37,669 --> 00:07:40,589 Speaker 2: They probably can afford to pay for pottery workshops and 153 00:07:41,109 --> 00:07:43,349 Speaker 2: camps that are offline and all these things. But if 154 00:07:43,349 --> 00:07:46,109 Speaker 2: you're a normal family, screens are very much the way 155 00:07:46,149 --> 00:07:48,789 Speaker 2: that dinner gets made the way that work gets done. 156 00:07:48,869 --> 00:07:51,549 Speaker 2: So I know it's interesting what they're doing and we 157 00:07:51,589 --> 00:07:53,749 Speaker 2: should take cues from it, but it's just not rooted 158 00:07:53,789 --> 00:07:54,349 Speaker 2: in reality. 159 00:07:54,549 --> 00:07:56,829 Speaker 3: No, even that idea of cozying up to watch a 160 00:07:56,869 --> 00:07:59,189 Speaker 3: movie that Maranda talked about. Look, before I had kids, 161 00:07:59,229 --> 00:08:01,309 Speaker 3: I thought I'd be doing that cozing up to watch 162 00:08:01,509 --> 00:08:04,429 Speaker 3: Disney movies from my childhood. That's not how it works. 163 00:08:04,469 --> 00:08:06,829 Speaker 3: When the TV is on, I am folding laundry. 164 00:08:07,109 --> 00:08:11,429 Speaker 1: Exactly Earlier this year, Adolescence was the biggest show. I 165 00:08:11,429 --> 00:08:14,269 Speaker 1: feel like you could not look or scroll anywhere without 166 00:08:14,309 --> 00:08:16,269 Speaker 1: seeing this. It was the biggest show on Netflix in 167 00:08:16,309 --> 00:08:19,029 Speaker 1: the world at the time before K Pop Demon Hunters 168 00:08:19,069 --> 00:08:21,469 Speaker 1: overtook it. But if you didn't watch it, it was 169 00:08:21,589 --> 00:08:23,989 Speaker 1: essentially about what happens to a family when their thirteen 170 00:08:24,029 --> 00:08:26,469 Speaker 1: year old son is arrested for murdering a school friend. 171 00:08:26,829 --> 00:08:31,389 Speaker 1: And it launched this global conversation around men and boys today. 172 00:08:31,749 --> 00:08:34,269 Speaker 1: And the creator of the show's now using his platform 173 00:08:34,309 --> 00:08:36,829 Speaker 1: to launch this program where he's asking men to write 174 00:08:36,909 --> 00:08:39,269 Speaker 1: letters to their sons and he'll turn it into a book. 175 00:08:39,869 --> 00:08:41,949 Speaker 1: This is such a lovely project in my eyes, Like 176 00:08:41,989 --> 00:08:44,509 Speaker 1: I think it's so great to see any focus on 177 00:08:44,629 --> 00:08:46,189 Speaker 1: raising emotionally intelligent boys. 178 00:08:46,189 --> 00:08:48,669 Speaker 2: Do you reckon Mon's I love it to Stacy, I 179 00:08:48,709 --> 00:08:52,429 Speaker 2: think we are trying to raise a new kind of man. 180 00:08:52,469 --> 00:08:54,549 Speaker 2: There's a lot of focus on boyhood at the moment, 181 00:08:54,629 --> 00:08:57,549 Speaker 2: and anything that we can do to bring dads into 182 00:08:57,549 --> 00:09:01,589 Speaker 2: the conversation and ask dads to kind of reveal emotional 183 00:09:01,589 --> 00:09:05,829 Speaker 2: intelligence and connect with their boys is really great. And 184 00:09:05,869 --> 00:09:08,309 Speaker 2: I know other people have tried to do it before, 185 00:09:08,309 --> 00:09:10,629 Speaker 2: but when you have someone as big as Stephen Graham, 186 00:09:10,829 --> 00:09:13,109 Speaker 2: who has this huge platform, who did kind of start 187 00:09:13,149 --> 00:09:16,589 Speaker 2: this global conversation now turning that into action, that can 188 00:09:16,669 --> 00:09:17,429 Speaker 2: only be a good thing. 189 00:09:17,669 --> 00:09:20,309 Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I hate it. I absolutely hate it. Look, 190 00:09:20,349 --> 00:09:23,269 Speaker 3: I didn't watch this TV show. I never will. In fact, 191 00:09:23,549 --> 00:09:29,269 Speaker 3: anecdotally know a lot of parents of younger children just 192 00:09:29,429 --> 00:09:32,429 Speaker 3: could not stomach the idea of watching a show like 193 00:09:32,509 --> 00:09:38,389 Speaker 3: this that essentially presents boys as having this monster inside 194 00:09:38,429 --> 00:09:40,949 Speaker 3: them that has to be tanged. And that's my issue 195 00:09:40,989 --> 00:09:44,669 Speaker 3: with Stephen Graham's hoole shtick. It's predicated on this idea 196 00:09:45,229 --> 00:09:49,309 Speaker 3: that boys today are in a unique crisis. He says 197 00:09:49,349 --> 00:09:52,749 Speaker 3: things along these lines. He says, there is arguably an 198 00:09:52,829 --> 00:09:57,989 Speaker 3: even bigger disconnect between fathers and sons than ever before. Sorry, 199 00:09:58,149 --> 00:10:00,509 Speaker 3: what where is the evidence for this? I think nineteen 200 00:10:00,549 --> 00:10:04,229 Speaker 3: fifties patriarchs who never spoke to their family want a word. 201 00:10:04,349 --> 00:10:06,589 Speaker 3: I don't see any evidence for it, and I think 202 00:10:06,629 --> 00:10:11,469 Speaker 3: it's perpetuating this idea of boys as weird aliens that 203 00:10:11,509 --> 00:10:13,629 Speaker 3: we have to treat with kid gloves. Sure, write a 204 00:10:13,669 --> 00:10:15,549 Speaker 3: letter to your son, but how about writing a letter 205 00:10:15,549 --> 00:10:17,869 Speaker 3: to your daughter too. I don't see why we keep 206 00:10:17,949 --> 00:10:21,949 Speaker 3: having to treat them in this almost fearful way. 207 00:10:22,509 --> 00:10:23,669 Speaker 1: But don't you feel like there needs to be a 208 00:10:23,709 --> 00:10:26,189 Speaker 1: bit of a recalibration, Like I feel like at the 209 00:10:26,229 --> 00:10:29,109 Speaker 1: moment we are seeing that so many boys are feeling 210 00:10:29,149 --> 00:10:33,549 Speaker 1: angry and feeling disconnected and looking to these like manisphere figures, 211 00:10:34,029 --> 00:10:35,749 Speaker 1: that we do need to have these people who do 212 00:10:35,829 --> 00:10:38,549 Speaker 1: have the platform focusing more on them and kind of 213 00:10:38,589 --> 00:10:40,589 Speaker 1: bringing that balance back of what it means to be 214 00:10:40,629 --> 00:10:41,269 Speaker 1: a good man. 215 00:10:41,589 --> 00:10:44,949 Speaker 3: There's been a bit of a backclash to adolescence. I 216 00:10:45,029 --> 00:10:47,109 Speaker 3: hear you on that, but I think that the idea 217 00:10:47,149 --> 00:10:49,749 Speaker 3: of being a better man, the flip side is you've 218 00:10:49,749 --> 00:10:52,149 Speaker 3: got to be a better man because inherently you are 219 00:10:52,229 --> 00:10:55,509 Speaker 3: a monster. No and you've got to stifle that and 220 00:10:55,629 --> 00:10:58,669 Speaker 3: stifle the toxic masculinity. And so a lot of people 221 00:10:58,709 --> 00:11:01,469 Speaker 3: are saying that Adolescence it was a hugely popular show, 222 00:11:01,509 --> 00:11:03,469 Speaker 3: but it came out, but a lot of the debate 223 00:11:03,549 --> 00:11:07,069 Speaker 3: now has shifted to was Adolescence kind of an example 224 00:11:07,069 --> 00:11:10,629 Speaker 3: of a moral panic, Like we've always worried about tea boys. 225 00:11:10,669 --> 00:11:12,989 Speaker 3: This is not new, and that's what I take exception to. 226 00:11:13,109 --> 00:11:16,909 Speaker 3: In the eighties, apparently I've read that people were worried 227 00:11:16,909 --> 00:11:21,109 Speaker 3: about dungeons and dragons corrupting youth and Chucky from child's play, 228 00:11:21,509 --> 00:11:24,309 Speaker 3: and then in the nineties it was violent rap lyrics. 229 00:11:24,349 --> 00:11:25,429 Speaker 3: None of this is new. 230 00:11:25,709 --> 00:11:27,509 Speaker 2: I don't think it is a moral panic because we 231 00:11:27,549 --> 00:11:31,549 Speaker 2: are seeing the data on boys being influenced by the 232 00:11:31,549 --> 00:11:34,549 Speaker 2: andrew Tates of the world and this toxic manisphere and 233 00:11:35,189 --> 00:11:39,029 Speaker 2: the parenting experts. There's an amazing parenting expert, Australian expert 234 00:11:39,029 --> 00:11:41,989 Speaker 2: called Steve Bitoff who writes a lot about raising boys, 235 00:11:42,629 --> 00:11:45,869 Speaker 2: and he says that the really critical time for duds 236 00:11:45,949 --> 00:11:49,149 Speaker 2: is the age between six and fourteen, and this is 237 00:11:49,189 --> 00:11:52,029 Speaker 2: when boys are working out who they are and if 238 00:11:52,029 --> 00:11:54,589 Speaker 2: there's no one there to guide them, if fathers don't 239 00:11:54,669 --> 00:11:57,589 Speaker 2: fill that gap, they will go looking for scripts of 240 00:11:57,629 --> 00:12:01,469 Speaker 2: masculinity elsewhere and they will find it online. And he 241 00:12:01,549 --> 00:12:05,189 Speaker 2: calls it the vacuum effect. When good men go quiet, 242 00:12:05,789 --> 00:12:08,909 Speaker 2: bad ones get loud. And I think boys are the 243 00:12:08,989 --> 00:12:13,109 Speaker 2: new misunderstood gender. But back to your point about how 244 00:12:13,549 --> 00:12:16,909 Speaker 2: nineteen fifties dad's had a much bigger disconnect with their sons, 245 00:12:16,909 --> 00:12:19,349 Speaker 2: I'm not sure if that's completely the case, because I 246 00:12:19,429 --> 00:12:22,989 Speaker 2: think the modern dad. We've come a long way with 247 00:12:23,149 --> 00:12:25,149 Speaker 2: men being more emotionally intelligent, and we see it in 248 00:12:25,189 --> 00:12:27,309 Speaker 2: pop culture. We see it like Blue is Dad Bandit. 249 00:12:27,829 --> 00:12:30,909 Speaker 2: We see a lot more representations of sensitive emotional men. 250 00:12:31,669 --> 00:12:35,589 Speaker 2: But we've told men for years to open up, but 251 00:12:35,709 --> 00:12:38,069 Speaker 2: we've never given them a format that feels kind of 252 00:12:38,149 --> 00:12:40,109 Speaker 2: like safe to do that. And I think a letter 253 00:12:40,869 --> 00:12:43,269 Speaker 2: is a really good way to do it because it's 254 00:12:43,429 --> 00:12:47,629 Speaker 2: feelings in a space that's non confrontational. So no dad 255 00:12:47,749 --> 00:12:49,429 Speaker 2: is going to sit down and look at their son 256 00:12:49,869 --> 00:12:52,229 Speaker 2: in the face and have a deep and meaningful conversation. 257 00:12:52,709 --> 00:12:54,509 Speaker 2: And a lot of the parenting experts say that is 258 00:12:54,549 --> 00:12:56,869 Speaker 2: not the time to talk to boys, that the best 259 00:12:56,869 --> 00:12:59,909 Speaker 2: time to communicate with them is side by side when 260 00:12:59,949 --> 00:13:02,189 Speaker 2: you're working on a project together when you're driving in 261 00:13:02,189 --> 00:13:04,749 Speaker 2: the car, and I think a letter does the same thing. 262 00:13:05,149 --> 00:13:07,829 Speaker 2: Putting your feelings down on paper and slipping it under 263 00:13:07,869 --> 00:13:11,789 Speaker 2: the door. It's very non confidental way to communicate with 264 00:13:11,869 --> 00:13:15,029 Speaker 2: your son. There was this study in twenty twenty three 265 00:13:15,109 --> 00:13:17,949 Speaker 2: that the University of Queensland did and it found that 266 00:13:18,069 --> 00:13:21,709 Speaker 2: young men learn how to be a man from their dads. 267 00:13:21,869 --> 00:13:25,549 Speaker 2: So dads pass on their masculinity beliefs to their sons. 268 00:13:25,589 --> 00:13:27,989 Speaker 2: And it might sound really obvious, but here's why it's important. 269 00:13:28,309 --> 00:13:30,549 Speaker 2: Because there are a lot of people out there wanting 270 00:13:30,589 --> 00:13:34,469 Speaker 2: to build policies and interventions and programs aimed at stopping 271 00:13:34,469 --> 00:13:39,269 Speaker 2: this toxic manisphere. It's more likely to work if we 272 00:13:39,429 --> 00:13:43,229 Speaker 2: target the dads. It's just more likely to work to 273 00:13:43,349 --> 00:13:46,389 Speaker 2: promote that healthy vision of masculinity if it's coming from 274 00:13:46,469 --> 00:13:50,149 Speaker 2: their dad, not from school, not from other people, but dads. 275 00:13:50,509 --> 00:13:53,229 Speaker 2: So that's why I think the letter project is amazing. 276 00:13:53,269 --> 00:13:56,309 Speaker 2: And I also want to say Maggie Dent wrote about 277 00:13:56,349 --> 00:13:59,509 Speaker 2: this in twenty twenty four. She called it the Power 278 00:13:59,589 --> 00:14:01,949 Speaker 2: of the parent Letter. She's got this book helped me 279 00:14:01,989 --> 00:14:03,949 Speaker 2: help my team. She's even got templates in the back 280 00:14:03,989 --> 00:14:06,309 Speaker 2: of the book, which is like, copy my letter. Here's 281 00:14:06,349 --> 00:14:08,189 Speaker 2: how to do it if you're not sure where to start. 282 00:14:08,829 --> 00:14:11,349 Speaker 2: And she says that like, having a well thought out 283 00:14:11,389 --> 00:14:14,789 Speaker 2: letter can build this bridge, and it's deceptively powerful. 284 00:14:14,949 --> 00:14:17,149 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm kind of sold on that. Maggie Dan also 285 00:14:17,189 --> 00:14:20,189 Speaker 3: taught me something about talking to boys, where she said 286 00:14:20,229 --> 00:14:24,749 Speaker 3: that they value predictability, a certain script every day, and 287 00:14:24,829 --> 00:14:27,029 Speaker 3: so she gave us a suggestion that a boy will 288 00:14:27,069 --> 00:14:30,789 Speaker 3: find it especially powerful if at bedtime you tell him 289 00:14:30,829 --> 00:14:33,349 Speaker 3: something like I love you more than all of the 290 00:14:33,389 --> 00:14:35,909 Speaker 3: grains of sand on all the beaches, because he can 291 00:14:36,029 --> 00:14:39,949 Speaker 3: visualize that it's really quite beautiful. I started this conversation 292 00:14:39,989 --> 00:14:41,989 Speaker 3: a cynic, but I'm kind of being one over to 293 00:14:42,069 --> 00:14:45,309 Speaker 3: this idea. Mon's that there is some kind of crisis 294 00:14:45,349 --> 00:14:48,309 Speaker 3: in boyhood and that fathers have to play a really 295 00:14:48,349 --> 00:14:49,149 Speaker 3: important role in that. 296 00:14:49,269 --> 00:14:51,509 Speaker 1: And what I liked in this project, Stephen Graham said 297 00:14:51,509 --> 00:14:54,029 Speaker 1: that he's purposely looking for all sorts of fathers. So 298 00:14:54,069 --> 00:14:57,109 Speaker 1: he wants new fathers, fathers who are much older and 299 00:14:57,149 --> 00:14:59,869 Speaker 1: their children are later in life, absent fathers who haven't 300 00:14:59,869 --> 00:15:02,469 Speaker 1: been there, and what they're feeling about that relationship. So 301 00:15:02,509 --> 00:15:04,269 Speaker 1: I think it's quite good in that it would feel 302 00:15:04,309 --> 00:15:06,909 Speaker 1: accessible to all types of dads. And yeah, maybe it's 303 00:15:06,949 --> 00:15:08,789 Speaker 1: just a matter of this needs to be targeted at 304 00:15:08,829 --> 00:15:09,989 Speaker 1: the father's, not the sons. 305 00:15:10,269 --> 00:15:14,549 Speaker 3: Even you win this round. It's the photo which has 306 00:15:14,629 --> 00:15:19,309 Speaker 3: divided Australia. Picnic tables at a local park, cheerful pink 307 00:15:19,349 --> 00:15:23,389 Speaker 3: plastic tablecloths, brightly colored bunting which reads happy Birthday. What 308 00:15:23,469 --> 00:15:24,429 Speaker 3: could be wrong with this? 309 00:15:24,789 --> 00:15:25,549 Speaker 1: Sounds lovely? 310 00:15:25,789 --> 00:15:29,029 Speaker 3: There's something wrong with it. There are no people in 311 00:15:29,069 --> 00:15:32,669 Speaker 3: the photo and that's what's set off a firestorm because 312 00:15:32,709 --> 00:15:35,749 Speaker 3: the person who reserved these tables for a kid's birthday 313 00:15:35,749 --> 00:15:40,229 Speaker 3: party was not in the park. Oh now, this photo 314 00:15:40,269 --> 00:15:43,469 Speaker 3: was posted to the Facebook page Southwest Sydney Kids Parks 315 00:15:43,469 --> 00:15:47,229 Speaker 3: and Places earlier this month, and as Yahoo News, which 316 00:15:47,269 --> 00:15:50,749 Speaker 3: has gone really impressively deep on this photo reports, it 317 00:15:50,909 --> 00:15:56,109 Speaker 3: quote left hundreds of viewers stunned. Hundreds treads. Now a 318 00:15:56,149 --> 00:15:58,109 Speaker 3: few facts before I'm going to turn to the jury 319 00:15:58,149 --> 00:16:00,589 Speaker 3: for a verdict on whether this behavior is acceptable or 320 00:16:00,629 --> 00:16:03,069 Speaker 3: profoundly un Australian. Here are the facts you need to know. 321 00:16:03,509 --> 00:16:05,629 Speaker 3: The setup was there since at least nine point thirty 322 00:16:05,629 --> 00:16:09,429 Speaker 3: am on a Saturday, when eyewitnesses first observed it. I 323 00:16:09,509 --> 00:16:11,789 Speaker 3: need to tell you that the council has confirmed you 324 00:16:11,789 --> 00:16:14,349 Speaker 3: cannot reserve tables at this park, so before you ask, 325 00:16:14,549 --> 00:16:19,029 Speaker 3: not an option. And also the offending family arrived at 326 00:16:19,029 --> 00:16:23,589 Speaker 3: the park for the party at twelve thirty pm. Now 327 00:16:23,669 --> 00:16:26,509 Speaker 3: the family was apparently very understanding. They moved their party 328 00:16:26,509 --> 00:16:29,949 Speaker 3: because other people had already taken the tables. Everything was fine, 329 00:16:30,469 --> 00:16:33,989 Speaker 3: But the question remains, two bags or not two bags? Stacy, 330 00:16:34,229 --> 00:16:34,909 Speaker 3: what's your verdict? 331 00:16:35,229 --> 00:16:38,909 Speaker 1: I think it's okay. I just think don't hate him player, 332 00:16:39,109 --> 00:16:42,509 Speaker 1: hate the game. Like, if you want to get there early, 333 00:16:42,989 --> 00:16:45,309 Speaker 1: then you've put in the work. As someone who sent 334 00:16:45,389 --> 00:16:48,269 Speaker 1: their father down to bags the table for my daughn 335 00:16:48,309 --> 00:16:51,949 Speaker 1: his birthday party at six thirty in the morning, Stephen 336 00:16:51,949 --> 00:16:54,949 Speaker 1: Graham would approve exactly for a ten thirty party. My 337 00:16:55,109 --> 00:16:59,229 Speaker 1: dad sat there in the chair with the setup, holding 338 00:16:59,309 --> 00:17:01,029 Speaker 1: fort holding his flatterer. 339 00:17:01,109 --> 00:17:05,629 Speaker 3: I imagine too, that's different. Respectfully, he was sitting there. The 340 00:17:05,669 --> 00:17:08,549 Speaker 3: issue is okay, there were no people there Mons. 341 00:17:08,349 --> 00:17:11,589 Speaker 2: Yes, I agree. I think the prevailing theory is fine 342 00:17:11,589 --> 00:17:16,069 Speaker 2: to bags, but someone must physically be there on table watch. Yes, 343 00:17:16,149 --> 00:17:20,269 Speaker 2: someone must remain visible. This also happened last summer when 344 00:17:20,269 --> 00:17:24,509 Speaker 2: there was a big kerfuffle about people reserving beach spots 345 00:17:24,549 --> 00:17:27,229 Speaker 2: by erecting the cool kabana in the morning and then 346 00:17:27,349 --> 00:17:29,829 Speaker 2: leaving and being able to come back and forth. The 347 00:17:29,909 --> 00:17:34,069 Speaker 2: unofficial Australian rule is one person must stay, otherwise it's 348 00:17:34,109 --> 00:17:36,429 Speaker 2: a free for all. It's a public space, public space, 349 00:17:36,469 --> 00:17:39,109 Speaker 2: public rules. We need to protect that kind of party. 350 00:17:39,269 --> 00:17:41,749 Speaker 2: I love a humble park party. They are just the 351 00:17:41,789 --> 00:17:42,949 Speaker 2: best mon's. 352 00:17:43,029 --> 00:17:45,789 Speaker 3: I couldn't agree more love a park party. There's something 353 00:17:45,949 --> 00:17:49,949 Speaker 3: so simultaneously nostalgic and very free about a park party. 354 00:17:50,029 --> 00:17:53,829 Speaker 3: And also you don't have people jamming lollies and cake 355 00:17:53,909 --> 00:17:57,269 Speaker 3: into your carpets, which is nice too. Yes, but I 356 00:17:57,389 --> 00:18:00,869 Speaker 3: had a very traumatic experience with a park party. I 357 00:18:00,869 --> 00:18:03,789 Speaker 3: was living in Washington, DC and I had a third 358 00:18:03,909 --> 00:18:07,909 Speaker 3: birthday party which was oct Nauts Seemed. I had ordered 359 00:18:07,989 --> 00:18:11,909 Speaker 3: a lot of Octu Nats Seemed party merch and swag 360 00:18:12,349 --> 00:18:13,909 Speaker 3: got to the park early to set it. 361 00:18:13,909 --> 00:18:17,429 Speaker 2: That Captain Barnacles, like in the octat. 362 00:18:18,109 --> 00:18:19,869 Speaker 3: Captain Barnacles, I think. 363 00:18:19,709 --> 00:18:22,869 Speaker 2: Captain Barnacles is too type A for you. I feel 364 00:18:22,869 --> 00:18:25,589 Speaker 2: like you might be the pirate with the patch classy. 365 00:18:26,749 --> 00:18:29,789 Speaker 3: That is so hurtful like a pirate. 366 00:18:29,909 --> 00:18:32,829 Speaker 2: I would never break the lawn A time guy, and 367 00:18:32,909 --> 00:18:34,229 Speaker 2: he's a good he's vibes. 368 00:18:35,109 --> 00:18:38,189 Speaker 3: Sorry continue getting is distracted. So I set up the 369 00:18:38,229 --> 00:18:41,309 Speaker 3: party and I was there. I was there the whole time, 370 00:18:42,189 --> 00:18:45,909 Speaker 3: and the party student started at eleven am. Ten five 371 00:18:46,389 --> 00:18:51,709 Speaker 3: woman rocks up at the park and says, I reserve this, no, 372 00:18:52,309 --> 00:18:56,789 Speaker 3: And my whole body went cold because what could I do? 373 00:18:56,949 --> 00:18:59,309 Speaker 3: She was absolutely right. I did not realize that you 374 00:18:59,349 --> 00:19:01,349 Speaker 3: had to reserve, and there was, in fact an online 375 00:19:01,349 --> 00:19:04,189 Speaker 3: booking system in place. I had to take down all 376 00:19:04,309 --> 00:19:08,309 Speaker 3: the oct nauts merch and essentially just create a makeshift 377 00:19:08,469 --> 00:19:12,629 Speaker 3: picnic party, which was not my vision. So I guess 378 00:19:12,629 --> 00:19:14,589 Speaker 3: that's kind of an urban horror story. And I guess 379 00:19:14,669 --> 00:19:16,949 Speaker 3: it shows you should always check out whether you can reserve. 380 00:19:17,269 --> 00:19:20,069 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why well done, Well done, because there isn't 381 00:19:20,149 --> 00:19:22,509 Speaker 2: There is a lot riding on the picnic park table. 382 00:19:22,829 --> 00:19:24,989 Speaker 2: You cannot leave it to chance, like you need to 383 00:19:25,029 --> 00:19:26,309 Speaker 2: try and control those controllables. 384 00:19:26,349 --> 00:19:28,349 Speaker 1: And were you just like living in the shadow of 385 00:19:28,429 --> 00:19:30,389 Speaker 1: that table and that change. 386 00:19:30,389 --> 00:19:33,109 Speaker 2: Your party right now? 387 00:19:33,109 --> 00:19:36,429 Speaker 3: That's not perfectly put living in the shadow. That will 388 00:19:36,469 --> 00:19:38,669 Speaker 3: be the name of my parenting memoir that I write 389 00:19:38,669 --> 00:19:41,749 Speaker 3: about that incident and how it caused me to reevaluate whether, 390 00:19:41,869 --> 00:19:43,429 Speaker 3: in fact I was a terrible parent. 391 00:19:43,469 --> 00:19:45,469 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry for your loss of the picnic time. 392 00:19:45,469 --> 00:19:47,589 Speaker 2: I actually think it's kind of cool that you just pivoted, 393 00:19:47,909 --> 00:19:48,429 Speaker 2: and we're. 394 00:19:48,229 --> 00:19:51,269 Speaker 3: Just like, what could I do? Haven't I park? 395 00:19:52,629 --> 00:19:54,789 Speaker 2: What was her party? Did you keep side eyeing her? 396 00:19:55,269 --> 00:19:58,549 Speaker 3: Look? Her party looked fine. It didn't have an optional sceme. 397 00:19:58,589 --> 00:20:01,269 Speaker 3: It did not appear to have a discernible theme, which 398 00:20:01,309 --> 00:20:03,349 Speaker 3: is fine. You don't have to have a theme. 399 00:20:03,549 --> 00:20:07,429 Speaker 1: Look lovely that she was too busy reserving the actual table. 400 00:20:07,549 --> 00:20:09,829 Speaker 3: The thing was, it was at a splash pad, and 401 00:20:10,189 --> 00:20:12,989 Speaker 3: I do love a splash pad for kids, for little kids, 402 00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:14,989 Speaker 3: because they can run back and forth. Look, it turned 403 00:20:15,029 --> 00:20:17,669 Speaker 3: out great. The kids didn't care, but I live with 404 00:20:17,709 --> 00:20:18,069 Speaker 3: the shame. 405 00:20:18,549 --> 00:20:21,789 Speaker 2: You know what, Amelia, you got that party planner, the 406 00:20:21,869 --> 00:20:24,069 Speaker 2: Amazing Pickle, whatever his name was, what was his name, 407 00:20:24,109 --> 00:20:27,989 Speaker 2: The Gecko, the Great Zucchini, the Great Zuchin Zucchini. You 408 00:20:28,069 --> 00:20:31,829 Speaker 2: have the Great Zucchini law. You managed to book America's 409 00:20:31,869 --> 00:20:34,309 Speaker 2: most famous party planner. It doesn't matter what you do 410 00:20:34,309 --> 00:20:35,829 Speaker 2: from here, it's never going to live up to that 411 00:20:35,989 --> 00:20:38,909 Speaker 2: so I think it should just be scrappy little park 412 00:20:38,909 --> 00:20:40,349 Speaker 2: parties from here on in FOREW. 413 00:20:40,349 --> 00:20:42,549 Speaker 3: I like that a lot. And I also feel like 414 00:20:42,749 --> 00:20:45,909 Speaker 3: park parties reach a kind of age limit as well, 415 00:20:46,029 --> 00:20:48,349 Speaker 3: and now I feel like I'm actually hitting that. I 416 00:20:48,389 --> 00:20:52,189 Speaker 3: think it's around seven. So to everyone who's still got 417 00:20:52,309 --> 00:20:55,109 Speaker 3: kids under seven who can have park parties, lean in. 418 00:20:55,309 --> 00:20:55,989 Speaker 3: They're the best. 419 00:20:56,749 --> 00:20:58,469 Speaker 2: Before we go into this next chat, if you have 420 00:20:58,629 --> 00:21:01,189 Speaker 2: small children who can hear this episode, if they are 421 00:21:01,189 --> 00:21:03,669 Speaker 2: in earshot, you may want to skip forward by just 422 00:21:03,789 --> 00:21:07,989 Speaker 2: a few minutes. I'm going to be referencing North Pole 423 00:21:08,349 --> 00:21:10,829 Speaker 2: business that only adults can no. 424 00:21:11,229 --> 00:21:11,629 Speaker 3: Thank you. 425 00:21:11,669 --> 00:21:14,109 Speaker 2: Now you two come into my secret room. Shut the door. 426 00:21:14,469 --> 00:21:16,469 Speaker 2: I need you to help me work through a problem. 427 00:21:16,909 --> 00:21:20,989 Speaker 2: It's Elf a clock or what I mean by that. Yeah, 428 00:21:21,029 --> 00:21:23,989 Speaker 2: it is because it's we're almost tipping into November, and 429 00:21:24,029 --> 00:21:25,869 Speaker 2: then by the time November gets here, it may as 430 00:21:25,869 --> 00:21:28,349 Speaker 2: well be December. It's the time of year that I 431 00:21:28,469 --> 00:21:33,309 Speaker 2: remember I feel like the last mom alive without an 432 00:21:33,349 --> 00:21:36,429 Speaker 2: Elf on the shelf. It taunts me every year. And 433 00:21:36,469 --> 00:21:39,469 Speaker 2: you know, last week we talked about how Halloween just 434 00:21:39,549 --> 00:21:43,029 Speaker 2: has this crazy momentum. I feel the same way about 435 00:21:43,069 --> 00:21:46,509 Speaker 2: elves On the shelves. They are everywhere. They're in schools, 436 00:21:46,549 --> 00:21:50,309 Speaker 2: they're on supermarket shelves, they're in cafes, like they're multiplying, 437 00:21:50,429 --> 00:21:52,829 Speaker 2: like nits on a year three classroom head. Like it's 438 00:21:52,909 --> 00:21:57,309 Speaker 2: just if they are everywhere. I agonize over this every year. 439 00:21:57,589 --> 00:22:00,669 Speaker 2: The time comes and every fiber of my body is 440 00:22:00,749 --> 00:22:05,949 Speaker 2: trying to resist the ELF. But the pressure, the tradition, 441 00:22:06,549 --> 00:22:09,109 Speaker 2: the beauty, the magic, the joy is also there too, 442 00:22:09,229 --> 00:22:11,589 Speaker 2: And I feel completely split down the middle about it. 443 00:22:12,309 --> 00:22:15,189 Speaker 2: And I want to ask you to as my confidants, 444 00:22:15,829 --> 00:22:17,349 Speaker 2: to elf or not to elf. 445 00:22:17,909 --> 00:22:20,669 Speaker 1: There is a lot of psychology behind this. I went 446 00:22:20,709 --> 00:22:23,789 Speaker 1: really deep on it, and researchers say enacting a family 447 00:22:23,869 --> 00:22:26,869 Speaker 1: ritual is more important than the specific form that that 448 00:22:26,989 --> 00:22:29,509 Speaker 1: ritual takes, So it doesn't really matter what it is. 449 00:22:29,709 --> 00:22:32,349 Speaker 1: But if you're doing something that your children are expecting, 450 00:22:32,749 --> 00:22:36,389 Speaker 1: that's a regular thing in your family. Repeated rituals are 451 00:22:36,429 --> 00:22:39,789 Speaker 1: proven to foster closeness and belonging and like that identity 452 00:22:39,869 --> 00:22:41,069 Speaker 1: of your family. 453 00:22:40,709 --> 00:22:43,589 Speaker 3: And that's what's good about it. Like, yes, it will 454 00:22:43,789 --> 00:22:46,509 Speaker 3: foster community. It is something you have to do long term. 455 00:22:46,549 --> 00:22:48,109 Speaker 3: But I want to talk about the dark side of 456 00:22:48,149 --> 00:22:50,949 Speaker 3: the tradition. Too, because this goes to your question of 457 00:22:50,949 --> 00:22:52,789 Speaker 3: whether or not you should do Elf on the shelf. Mons, 458 00:22:53,269 --> 00:22:55,669 Speaker 3: And you sent me a link to a newsletter called 459 00:22:55,709 --> 00:22:58,869 Speaker 3: I Kid You not listeners type a mom. Now, this 460 00:22:58,909 --> 00:23:02,469 Speaker 3: is not a newsletter I subscribe to, but it's every 461 00:23:02,509 --> 00:23:05,749 Speaker 3: time the author of that newsletter, Amanda Brown. She gave 462 00:23:05,789 --> 00:23:08,629 Speaker 3: me a phrase that honestly never given myself permission to 463 00:23:08,669 --> 00:23:12,589 Speaker 3: think about before, about traditions I hate and traditions I 464 00:23:12,629 --> 00:23:15,429 Speaker 3: regret starting because we always think a tradition is a 465 00:23:15,429 --> 00:23:17,829 Speaker 3: good thing for all the reasons you said, Stacy, But 466 00:23:18,269 --> 00:23:21,109 Speaker 3: there's a lot of sort of pernicious elements of starting 467 00:23:21,149 --> 00:23:23,789 Speaker 3: a tradition within a family. And Amanda has three lessons 468 00:23:23,829 --> 00:23:26,989 Speaker 3: she's learned about traditions. One, once you start a tradition, 469 00:23:27,109 --> 00:23:29,829 Speaker 3: it's very hard to stop it. Two, kids do not 470 00:23:29,989 --> 00:23:32,989 Speaker 3: need traditions to be elaborate, which is great because my 471 00:23:33,029 --> 00:23:36,749 Speaker 3: favorite tradition is sleeping in on a Saturday morning. And three, 472 00:23:37,389 --> 00:23:40,709 Speaker 3: these traditions will continue until your youngest child grows out 473 00:23:40,749 --> 00:23:44,229 Speaker 3: of them. So by and beware. What does that make 474 00:23:44,309 --> 00:23:46,909 Speaker 3: you think? In terms of Elf on the shelf, Moonds 475 00:23:47,229 --> 00:23:50,789 Speaker 3: like that idea of committing to it for a long time. 476 00:23:51,389 --> 00:23:55,229 Speaker 2: I'm okay with that. I actually feel really divided about this. 477 00:23:55,509 --> 00:23:58,109 Speaker 2: I'm not anti elf. I think it's gorgeous and I 478 00:23:58,149 --> 00:24:00,349 Speaker 2: think that kids are little for such a short time 479 00:24:00,429 --> 00:24:03,069 Speaker 2: that doing anything that brings joy and magic into the 480 00:24:03,109 --> 00:24:06,629 Speaker 2: house is a good thing, right. And I also identify 481 00:24:06,749 --> 00:24:09,349 Speaker 2: as a Christmas mom, like I'm in Christmas Mom's Australia 482 00:24:09,349 --> 00:24:13,189 Speaker 2: Facebook group every five seconds like, oh we know. The 483 00:24:13,229 --> 00:24:16,389 Speaker 2: thing that has stopped me from doing it are two things. 484 00:24:17,149 --> 00:24:20,629 Speaker 2: The first is it feels deceptive, like once they find 485 00:24:20,669 --> 00:24:24,749 Speaker 2: out is it I've been lied to this whole time. 486 00:24:25,389 --> 00:24:27,309 Speaker 2: I also don't love the idea that kids have to 487 00:24:27,309 --> 00:24:29,389 Speaker 2: be good because someone's watching them. I want my kids 488 00:24:29,389 --> 00:24:33,749 Speaker 2: to be like intrinsically good, not extrinsically motivated. And thirdly, 489 00:24:34,069 --> 00:24:36,869 Speaker 2: I think the mental load was too much for me 490 00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:39,029 Speaker 2: in the past. I had a huge job, we had 491 00:24:39,029 --> 00:24:40,829 Speaker 2: a lot going on at home, and I just felt 492 00:24:40,869 --> 00:24:42,829 Speaker 2: like one more thing in December was probably going to 493 00:24:42,869 --> 00:24:45,109 Speaker 2: break me. But I couple that with the idea that 494 00:24:45,229 --> 00:24:47,309 Speaker 2: it does bring that sort of sense of magic and 495 00:24:47,349 --> 00:24:49,349 Speaker 2: it is something that they're going to wake up in 496 00:24:49,389 --> 00:24:53,269 Speaker 2: the morning and feel excited about. But it is a 497 00:24:53,269 --> 00:24:55,789 Speaker 2: lot of mental load. But that's what we do as parents, right, 498 00:24:55,829 --> 00:24:58,829 Speaker 2: We manufacture these moments to make our kids happy. 499 00:24:58,989 --> 00:25:01,869 Speaker 1: Well, you could just try my tactic mons. Last year, 500 00:25:01,949 --> 00:25:05,549 Speaker 1: I caved and decided that I needed to be this mum. 501 00:25:05,829 --> 00:25:08,229 Speaker 1: The first night, I put it on the toilet because 502 00:25:08,229 --> 00:25:10,069 Speaker 1: I would thought that would be funny in the morning. 503 00:25:10,389 --> 00:25:12,189 Speaker 1: But my daughter got up in the middle of the night, 504 00:25:12,509 --> 00:25:15,869 Speaker 1: saw a strange figure sitting on the toilet. Terrified, screamed. 505 00:25:16,189 --> 00:25:18,589 Speaker 1: The elf will never be back again in our household, 506 00:25:18,589 --> 00:25:19,949 Speaker 1: which I'm grateful for. 507 00:25:20,149 --> 00:25:22,189 Speaker 3: What story did you give us to why the elf 508 00:25:22,189 --> 00:25:22,709 Speaker 3: went away? 509 00:25:23,109 --> 00:25:25,389 Speaker 1: I just said you didn't like her, so that's fine. 510 00:25:25,429 --> 00:25:27,669 Speaker 1: We'll just not We won't do that anymore. 511 00:25:27,829 --> 00:25:29,709 Speaker 3: The health services are no longer. 512 00:25:31,709 --> 00:25:34,909 Speaker 2: I fired the elf, yes, Stacy, I mean the toilet 513 00:25:34,989 --> 00:25:38,309 Speaker 2: is a weird choice. For the first Why the toilet? 514 00:25:38,429 --> 00:25:40,869 Speaker 2: That is where the door should be closed? It's your 515 00:25:40,909 --> 00:25:43,309 Speaker 2: private business. What was going through your mind when you 516 00:25:43,389 --> 00:25:43,989 Speaker 2: chose toilet? 517 00:25:44,109 --> 00:25:45,469 Speaker 3: I panicked. I panicked. 518 00:25:45,709 --> 00:25:47,829 Speaker 1: I wanted to commit to this, but didn't really have 519 00:25:47,829 --> 00:25:49,589 Speaker 1: the time to commit to this, So that's where I 520 00:25:49,629 --> 00:25:52,669 Speaker 1: put it. Failed miserably. So that's my sign that that 521 00:25:52,709 --> 00:25:54,829 Speaker 1: tradition is not for our family. 522 00:25:55,109 --> 00:25:57,709 Speaker 3: I feel like this question of to elf or not 523 00:25:57,749 --> 00:26:00,389 Speaker 3: to elf is tied up with the idea that we 524 00:26:00,469 --> 00:26:03,349 Speaker 3: feel like we don't have enough traditions anymore. And I 525 00:26:03,389 --> 00:26:05,229 Speaker 3: think there are a couple of reasons for that. The 526 00:26:05,309 --> 00:26:08,869 Speaker 3: first is that so many seasonal traditions are connected to 527 00:26:08,909 --> 00:26:12,669 Speaker 3: the Northern Hemisphere calend so for instance, an Easter egg 528 00:26:12,749 --> 00:26:15,469 Speaker 3: caunt or an Easter egg roll. The whole idea of 529 00:26:15,469 --> 00:26:17,349 Speaker 3: that is that it's meant to be in springtime and 530 00:26:17,389 --> 00:26:20,509 Speaker 3: that's why they're all these eggs to find. Or Halloween, 531 00:26:20,549 --> 00:26:23,029 Speaker 3: it's meant to be when the days are getting darker 532 00:26:23,069 --> 00:26:26,309 Speaker 3: and shorter, and there's this sense of menace and the 533 00:26:26,349 --> 00:26:29,469 Speaker 3: ominousness of the cold. So that's the first reason. The 534 00:26:29,469 --> 00:26:31,469 Speaker 3: second reason, I think a lot of traditions are obviously 535 00:26:31,509 --> 00:26:34,149 Speaker 3: quite religious in nature, and so we're looking for secular 536 00:26:34,189 --> 00:26:37,909 Speaker 3: traditions to start, and I think that that's probably why 537 00:26:37,949 --> 00:26:40,029 Speaker 3: we search for things like Elf on the shelf. But 538 00:26:40,189 --> 00:26:42,829 Speaker 3: I do think that committing to them is huge. I 539 00:26:42,869 --> 00:26:45,469 Speaker 3: see this even with the tooth Fairy. Now, I felt 540 00:26:45,509 --> 00:26:48,589 Speaker 3: obligated to employ the tooth Fairy in case there are 541 00:26:48,749 --> 00:26:50,909 Speaker 3: little kids who have come back. The tooth Fairy does 542 00:26:50,989 --> 00:26:53,909 Speaker 3: work in our home, but the tooth ory is not reliable. 543 00:26:54,109 --> 00:26:57,029 Speaker 3: Sometimes she tells me that she doesn't have any cash. 544 00:26:57,629 --> 00:26:59,989 Speaker 3: Sometimes she asks me change for a fifty and I 545 00:27:00,029 --> 00:27:01,709 Speaker 3: don't have change for a fifty, And I think that 546 00:27:01,749 --> 00:27:04,469 Speaker 3: should be her job as tooth fairy to keep gold 547 00:27:04,509 --> 00:27:07,669 Speaker 3: coins on hand. And I'm frankly not pleased with the 548 00:27:07,749 --> 00:27:09,789 Speaker 3: job she's been doing. But am I going to fire 549 00:27:09,829 --> 00:27:11,629 Speaker 3: the two? It raises all these. 550 00:27:11,509 --> 00:27:15,949 Speaker 1: Questions, But I think these ones feel like a big commitment, 551 00:27:15,989 --> 00:27:18,549 Speaker 1: and I think the best family traditions, like I don't 552 00:27:18,589 --> 00:27:20,269 Speaker 1: think you need to be worrying about the elf mons, 553 00:27:20,309 --> 00:27:22,709 Speaker 1: because I think the best family traditions are the ones 554 00:27:22,709 --> 00:27:26,029 Speaker 1: that are quite specific to your family. Like in our family, 555 00:27:26,069 --> 00:27:28,469 Speaker 1: we do tree Day. So we've done tree Day I'm 556 00:27:28,469 --> 00:27:31,149 Speaker 1: thirty six now for thirty six years with my parents, 557 00:27:31,189 --> 00:27:33,589 Speaker 1: where we go and get the tree from the Christmas 558 00:27:33,589 --> 00:27:36,509 Speaker 1: tree farm. And my brother now lives into state with 559 00:27:36,589 --> 00:27:39,549 Speaker 1: his wife and they fly back from Melbourne to come 560 00:27:39,589 --> 00:27:41,989 Speaker 1: and cut down the tree for our family. They're not 561 00:27:42,069 --> 00:27:44,469 Speaker 1: even there. But that is something that even in my 562 00:27:44,589 --> 00:27:46,949 Speaker 1: wider friend group, people talk about, oh yeah, you've got 563 00:27:47,029 --> 00:27:49,949 Speaker 1: Tree Day this week, like it's something that is unique 564 00:27:50,029 --> 00:27:52,109 Speaker 1: to our family, and I think those are the ones 565 00:27:52,149 --> 00:27:55,589 Speaker 1: that should bring a bit more joy to you as well. Like, 566 00:27:55,989 --> 00:27:57,909 Speaker 1: if it's feeling like a chore, it probably shouldn't be 567 00:27:57,949 --> 00:27:58,389 Speaker 1: a tradition. 568 00:27:58,509 --> 00:28:00,469 Speaker 3: Can I ask what day is Tree Day? 569 00:28:00,509 --> 00:28:03,469 Speaker 1: For Tree Day is just the first week of December generally, 570 00:28:03,589 --> 00:28:05,749 Speaker 1: so we always do that. And I kind of went 571 00:28:05,789 --> 00:28:10,389 Speaker 1: in search of other more achievable traditions around this. We 572 00:28:10,469 --> 00:28:13,509 Speaker 1: put the elf in the bathroom, which is perfect creepy. 573 00:28:14,269 --> 00:28:17,869 Speaker 1: I know, look, I'm not great at traditions across the board. 574 00:28:18,229 --> 00:28:20,549 Speaker 1: I found this brilliant when I was looking at other 575 00:28:20,829 --> 00:28:23,509 Speaker 1: traditions that are like family identity, and I found this 576 00:28:23,629 --> 00:28:26,549 Speaker 1: brilliant one by this woman named Kylie, And she said 577 00:28:26,589 --> 00:28:29,429 Speaker 1: that they do Cookie Hookie Day in their family. So 578 00:28:29,629 --> 00:28:31,669 Speaker 1: one day a year in December, they all take the 579 00:28:31,749 --> 00:28:34,349 Speaker 1: day off. The children skip school, the parents take the 580 00:28:34,389 --> 00:28:37,309 Speaker 1: day off. They make cookies the entire day, which ends 581 00:28:37,349 --> 00:28:39,589 Speaker 1: up forming presents for the other people in the family. 582 00:28:39,869 --> 00:28:42,669 Speaker 1: They watch Christmas movies. Everyone loves it because they feel 583 00:28:42,709 --> 00:28:44,429 Speaker 1: like they're being a bit naughty and doing something that 584 00:28:44,469 --> 00:28:46,549 Speaker 1: they shouldn't do by taking the day off. And I 585 00:28:46,589 --> 00:28:48,589 Speaker 1: just thought that was brilliant, Like, isn't that what we're 586 00:28:48,629 --> 00:28:52,189 Speaker 1: meant to be looking forward traditions, not buying a bloody 587 00:28:52,189 --> 00:28:53,389 Speaker 1: elf that we put everywhere. 588 00:28:53,669 --> 00:28:55,229 Speaker 2: Thank you for this pep talk. I think this is 589 00:28:55,269 --> 00:28:57,389 Speaker 2: exactly what I need. And what you said before that 590 00:28:57,509 --> 00:28:59,709 Speaker 2: was so beautiful and brilliant, and I want to put 591 00:28:59,709 --> 00:29:01,949 Speaker 2: a highlighter on it is If it feels like a chore, 592 00:29:02,109 --> 00:29:04,389 Speaker 2: maybe it's not the tradition for you. And I think 593 00:29:04,429 --> 00:29:06,509 Speaker 2: the reason I'm attracted to the elf or I have 594 00:29:06,589 --> 00:29:09,109 Speaker 2: this tension around the elf, is because we don't have 595 00:29:09,269 --> 00:29:12,229 Speaker 2: any of these beautif for traditions, and so it's like, oh, 596 00:29:12,269 --> 00:29:13,869 Speaker 2: here's one you can just buy off the shelf. 597 00:29:13,989 --> 00:29:16,189 Speaker 3: Sorry, moms, did you say you're attracted to the earl? 598 00:29:17,269 --> 00:29:17,629 Speaker 1: I am. 599 00:29:17,829 --> 00:29:20,789 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a whole group of us online. 600 00:29:22,669 --> 00:29:23,669 Speaker 3: That's another Facebook. 601 00:29:27,029 --> 00:29:30,189 Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm trying to get deep here, all right. 602 00:29:30,389 --> 00:29:33,429 Speaker 2: Maybe it is actually about choosing things that we look 603 00:29:33,549 --> 00:29:35,909 Speaker 2: forward to. I think I'm just going to get the 604 00:29:35,909 --> 00:29:40,429 Speaker 2: fucking help you after all of that. Do you know 605 00:29:40,469 --> 00:29:42,709 Speaker 2: what I also love about your story is that you 606 00:29:42,749 --> 00:29:45,109 Speaker 2: tried something and you quickly realized it wasn't for you 607 00:29:45,189 --> 00:29:47,149 Speaker 2: and you were abandoned. And I think that's quite good 608 00:29:47,229 --> 00:29:50,789 Speaker 2: because as you said earlier. Once you hook into a tradition, 609 00:29:50,909 --> 00:29:53,029 Speaker 2: you have to it's a long term thing to keep 610 00:29:53,069 --> 00:29:54,949 Speaker 2: it going. I want to ask a question about your 611 00:29:54,989 --> 00:29:57,629 Speaker 2: tree Day. Did you do Tree Day as a kid 612 00:29:57,629 --> 00:29:58,309 Speaker 2: with your parents? 613 00:29:58,589 --> 00:30:01,309 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, it's been something that my parents have always done. 614 00:30:01,509 --> 00:30:04,309 Speaker 1: But now there's that tension of where at that point? 615 00:30:04,349 --> 00:30:06,429 Speaker 1: Now where now our daughter is brought in on that, 616 00:30:06,509 --> 00:30:08,909 Speaker 1: But when does that end? And I think that's always 617 00:30:08,909 --> 00:30:12,389 Speaker 1: the hard thing. A sad thing with traditions sometimes is 618 00:30:12,589 --> 00:30:15,069 Speaker 1: they're started by someone who then no longer ends up 619 00:30:15,109 --> 00:30:17,149 Speaker 1: being there. So do you continue that on? 620 00:30:17,589 --> 00:30:20,589 Speaker 2: Yes, of course you honor them. It's beautiful. Yeah, such 621 00:30:20,629 --> 00:30:22,789 Speaker 2: a legacy, or people can grow out of them. 622 00:30:22,869 --> 00:30:25,389 Speaker 1: Like for our daughter, the night before her birthday, I 623 00:30:25,509 --> 00:30:28,149 Speaker 1: dress all of her stuffed animals in party hats because 624 00:30:28,189 --> 00:30:31,549 Speaker 1: I had seen a video of that. It's an easy 625 00:30:31,629 --> 00:30:33,589 Speaker 1: cheap thing to do. They all sit in a circle 626 00:30:33,629 --> 00:30:36,469 Speaker 1: with her present, so in the morning, all the stuffed 627 00:30:36,469 --> 00:30:38,589 Speaker 1: animals are there for her to get her present. But 628 00:30:38,869 --> 00:30:40,869 Speaker 1: last year when I did it, I felt this big 629 00:30:40,909 --> 00:30:43,989 Speaker 1: sense of sadness because I thought this will end at 630 00:30:43,989 --> 00:30:46,229 Speaker 1: some point, she won't want me to do this anymore. 631 00:30:46,269 --> 00:30:48,909 Speaker 1: When she's fourteen, or fifteen years old, maybe sooner. 632 00:30:48,989 --> 00:30:50,949 Speaker 3: You know what, she might want you to do it. 633 00:30:51,069 --> 00:30:53,669 Speaker 1: She might I will do it until my dying day. 634 00:30:53,789 --> 00:30:56,989 Speaker 2: She wants me to Amelia any traditions other than sleeping 635 00:30:57,029 --> 00:30:57,509 Speaker 2: in at your house. 636 00:30:57,629 --> 00:31:00,709 Speaker 3: You guys, this is such a type a mom conversation. 637 00:31:00,909 --> 00:31:02,749 Speaker 3: I want to point that and I love it. I 638 00:31:02,749 --> 00:31:05,149 Speaker 3: don't have any loss go forth. 639 00:31:05,589 --> 00:31:08,229 Speaker 2: Okay, So I'm in the market for a new tradition. 640 00:31:08,469 --> 00:31:09,869 Speaker 2: I think what I would like to know is what 641 00:31:09,909 --> 00:31:12,589 Speaker 2: other people are doing. Stacy, You've got all the ideas, 642 00:31:12,669 --> 00:31:15,389 Speaker 2: but what are our listeners doing that they can recommend? 643 00:31:15,829 --> 00:31:17,549 Speaker 2: I would love it if people could go to our 644 00:31:17,589 --> 00:31:22,549 Speaker 2: Instagram at Parenting Out Loud and tell us your Christmas traditions, 645 00:31:22,589 --> 00:31:25,309 Speaker 2: your family traditions, so that we can copy them and 646 00:31:25,349 --> 00:31:25,789 Speaker 2: steal them. 647 00:31:25,829 --> 00:31:26,229 Speaker 3: Thank you. 648 00:31:27,029 --> 00:31:27,349 Speaker 1: Okay. 649 00:31:27,349 --> 00:31:29,189 Speaker 2: You know that feeling when a friend tells you about 650 00:31:29,229 --> 00:31:31,389 Speaker 2: something so good that it goes straight into your notes 651 00:31:31,429 --> 00:31:33,789 Speaker 2: app and then you probably never look at it again, 652 00:31:33,789 --> 00:31:36,549 Speaker 2: but you've taken on the recommendation. That's what we do. 653 00:31:36,669 --> 00:31:38,949 Speaker 2: Every week. We bring you the best things that we've 654 00:31:39,309 --> 00:31:42,429 Speaker 2: read or seen or bought or used. Stacy. 655 00:31:42,709 --> 00:31:44,949 Speaker 1: So this week I got myself a little treat and 656 00:31:44,949 --> 00:31:46,829 Speaker 1: I've had a big reaction to it, so I thought 657 00:31:46,869 --> 00:31:48,469 Speaker 1: I would share here because a lot of people said 658 00:31:48,469 --> 00:31:51,149 Speaker 1: they didn't know about this. I bought myself a makeup 659 00:31:51,229 --> 00:31:51,989 Speaker 1: lesson at Mecha. 660 00:31:52,149 --> 00:31:52,949 Speaker 3: Oh that's brilliant. 661 00:31:53,109 --> 00:31:55,389 Speaker 1: So it's one hundred and fifty bucks. It's not cheap, 662 00:31:55,509 --> 00:31:58,549 Speaker 1: but it's redeemable on products, and you take your bag 663 00:31:58,589 --> 00:32:01,149 Speaker 1: of makeup you already own with you and go, this 664 00:32:01,189 --> 00:32:03,429 Speaker 1: is what i've got, this is what I'm using. Can 665 00:32:03,469 --> 00:32:05,869 Speaker 1: you show me how to use this? And then they'll 666 00:32:05,909 --> 00:32:07,989 Speaker 1: fill in the gaps with anything you don't have. So, 667 00:32:08,109 --> 00:32:10,269 Speaker 1: like I needed a nice foundation, but I have had 668 00:32:10,269 --> 00:32:13,149 Speaker 1: an eyeshadow palette that I have owned for probably seven 669 00:32:13,229 --> 00:32:15,749 Speaker 1: years and never actually used because I didn't know which 670 00:32:15,789 --> 00:32:18,549 Speaker 1: ones to use. I loved it. I left with a 671 00:32:18,589 --> 00:32:19,589 Speaker 1: full face of makeup. 672 00:32:19,629 --> 00:32:22,109 Speaker 3: Okay, I need some tips, Okay, it's the best. Yeah. 673 00:32:22,149 --> 00:32:24,709 Speaker 1: So the best things I learned were about so I 674 00:32:24,789 --> 00:32:26,429 Speaker 1: just have been doing my makeup the same since I 675 00:32:26,509 --> 00:32:28,669 Speaker 1: was like sixteen years old, where you just like slap 676 00:32:28,709 --> 00:32:30,269 Speaker 1: the foundation on me your hands and rub it all 677 00:32:30,309 --> 00:32:33,989 Speaker 1: over your face to do apparently not the main thing 678 00:32:34,029 --> 00:32:36,629 Speaker 1: now that we're of a certain age is to not 679 00:32:36,709 --> 00:32:39,709 Speaker 1: put the foundation up on, right up under your eyes, 680 00:32:39,829 --> 00:32:42,069 Speaker 1: because she said, if you're going to put on concealer 681 00:32:42,469 --> 00:32:45,269 Speaker 1: or a color corrector, you're just layering heaps of stuff 682 00:32:45,309 --> 00:32:47,829 Speaker 1: in that spot and it's what can kind of drag 683 00:32:47,869 --> 00:32:50,869 Speaker 1: your face down. So she left all that area and 684 00:32:50,949 --> 00:32:53,469 Speaker 1: showed me how to put like a nice color correcting 685 00:32:53,749 --> 00:32:57,589 Speaker 1: product that I have your Sports Look Spectacle, Thank you 686 00:32:57,669 --> 00:33:01,509 Speaker 1: so much. My other one was instead of doing liquid eyeliner, 687 00:33:01,549 --> 00:33:03,789 Speaker 1: which I've never really been able to master, they always 688 00:33:03,789 --> 00:33:06,069 Speaker 1: look crooked, like one will look great and one will 689 00:33:06,069 --> 00:33:09,389 Speaker 1: look crap. She said, I should be using eyeshadow with 690 00:33:09,429 --> 00:33:12,229 Speaker 1: an angled little brush, you know, the ones like tiny, tiny, 691 00:33:12,269 --> 00:33:14,549 Speaker 1: tiny little brush with an angle to create a line 692 00:33:14,589 --> 00:33:17,949 Speaker 1: of a flick, rather than using a liquid eyeliner because 693 00:33:17,949 --> 00:33:20,429 Speaker 1: it can look a bit too harsh. So I bought 694 00:33:20,469 --> 00:33:22,509 Speaker 1: a ton of things, but I've also now got a 695 00:33:22,509 --> 00:33:25,269 Speaker 1: ton of things on a wish list for Christmas for myself. 696 00:33:25,429 --> 00:33:27,149 Speaker 3: What fun act did you buy that you were most 697 00:33:27,149 --> 00:33:27,829 Speaker 3: excited that? 698 00:33:27,829 --> 00:33:30,429 Speaker 1: Oh, the cheapest thing the angled brush Because I did 699 00:33:30,469 --> 00:33:33,349 Speaker 1: my little flicky eyeliner this morning with brown eyeshadow, and 700 00:33:33,389 --> 00:33:35,189 Speaker 1: I feel like it's okay and I won't smudge it 701 00:33:35,229 --> 00:33:38,229 Speaker 1: all over my face. So, yeah, hot tip, do that 702 00:33:38,469 --> 00:33:40,869 Speaker 1: or put that on your birthday or Christmas wish list 703 00:33:40,909 --> 00:33:41,789 Speaker 1: for someone to buy for you. 704 00:33:42,389 --> 00:33:45,549 Speaker 2: That's so good. While we're talking about makeup, I started 705 00:33:45,549 --> 00:33:48,389 Speaker 2: following that woman you told us about, Amelia Erica Taylor. 706 00:33:48,509 --> 00:33:50,589 Speaker 1: She's a genius, genius. 707 00:33:50,869 --> 00:33:52,869 Speaker 2: Oh so, if you don't have the time or the 708 00:33:52,869 --> 00:33:55,589 Speaker 2: money to get into Mecca, just do the cheapy version 709 00:33:55,589 --> 00:33:58,829 Speaker 2: and follow Erica Taylor on Instagram and just copy what 710 00:33:58,869 --> 00:33:59,229 Speaker 2: she does. 711 00:33:59,309 --> 00:34:00,749 Speaker 1: Yeah, she's brilliant. It's great. 712 00:34:01,189 --> 00:34:04,029 Speaker 3: If you own a danim jacket, you probably need to 713 00:34:04,069 --> 00:34:06,349 Speaker 3: be updating your makeup. And we said afinitely. 714 00:34:07,749 --> 00:34:10,349 Speaker 2: All right, little change of pace here because I have 715 00:34:10,389 --> 00:34:12,949 Speaker 2: a recommendation that goes a bit deeper. You know, you 716 00:34:13,029 --> 00:34:15,469 Speaker 2: when someone you love is going through something really shit 717 00:34:16,069 --> 00:34:19,269 Speaker 2: and you don't know what to say or do. It's 718 00:34:19,309 --> 00:34:22,709 Speaker 2: Breast cancer Awareness Month and I read an article on 719 00:34:23,029 --> 00:34:26,109 Speaker 2: substat last night by Lucy Ormond. Her substanct's called a 720 00:34:26,149 --> 00:34:28,829 Speaker 2: Year of Healing, and this article is called, so your 721 00:34:28,869 --> 00:34:32,309 Speaker 2: friend's being diagnosed with cancer, Here's how you can help. 722 00:34:32,949 --> 00:34:36,109 Speaker 2: And it was so brilliant. It was full of brilliant 723 00:34:36,149 --> 00:34:38,149 Speaker 2: ideas of how to show up for someone in the 724 00:34:38,149 --> 00:34:41,029 Speaker 2: thick of it really like low cost things to do, 725 00:34:41,749 --> 00:34:44,749 Speaker 2: things that you should text, things not to say, and 726 00:34:44,789 --> 00:34:47,389 Speaker 2: how these small things can help more than you know. 727 00:34:48,069 --> 00:34:52,389 Speaker 2: A disclaimer is that Lucy is my friend, my very 728 00:34:52,429 --> 00:34:55,069 Speaker 2: dear friend, So you can imagine the guilts that I 729 00:34:55,149 --> 00:34:57,869 Speaker 2: felt when I read this and realized all the things 730 00:34:57,869 --> 00:35:00,589 Speaker 2: I could have done better. So don't be me. Read 731 00:35:00,589 --> 00:35:03,429 Speaker 2: it book market so that the next time you know 732 00:35:03,589 --> 00:35:06,869 Speaker 2: someone that's going through something really horrible, you will know 733 00:35:06,909 --> 00:35:08,389 Speaker 2: what to do. So we might link to it in 734 00:35:08,429 --> 00:35:08,989 Speaker 2: the show notes. 735 00:35:09,069 --> 00:35:11,389 Speaker 3: Well, what's one thing that you shouldn't text or say? 736 00:35:11,909 --> 00:35:13,949 Speaker 2: I know someone that had cancer and died. 737 00:35:14,829 --> 00:35:15,069 Speaker 3: Yeah. 738 00:35:15,509 --> 00:35:18,309 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my friend had that and they died. She said, 739 00:35:18,469 --> 00:35:19,269 Speaker 2: why would you say that? 740 00:35:19,429 --> 00:35:19,669 Speaker 1: Yeah? 741 00:35:19,829 --> 00:35:22,349 Speaker 3: Yeah, oh that sounds so helpful. Thanks for that month. 742 00:35:23,149 --> 00:35:27,749 Speaker 3: Mine is a parenting technique that is actually extremely easy 743 00:35:27,789 --> 00:35:30,709 Speaker 3: and dare I say it fun. So I'm not type A, 744 00:35:30,869 --> 00:35:33,349 Speaker 3: but I am a nerd and I will take any 745 00:35:33,349 --> 00:35:36,349 Speaker 3: opportunity to learn more about how to be a better parent. 746 00:35:37,069 --> 00:35:39,909 Speaker 3: And I took a parenting class in person a couple 747 00:35:39,909 --> 00:35:43,109 Speaker 3: of years ago. It was with an American pediatrician called 748 00:35:43,149 --> 00:35:46,989 Speaker 3: doctor Dan Shapiro. He's extremely sought after. His practice is 749 00:35:47,029 --> 00:35:50,549 Speaker 3: basically impossible to get into. But he does run this 750 00:35:50,669 --> 00:35:53,269 Speaker 3: course and it's called Parent Child Journey, and you can 751 00:35:53,349 --> 00:35:57,549 Speaker 3: actually do it online. And I particularly recommend it for 752 00:35:57,869 --> 00:36:01,669 Speaker 3: parents whose children are neurodivergent because that is his area 753 00:36:01,749 --> 00:36:04,949 Speaker 3: of specialty. But the tips and the techniques that he 754 00:36:04,989 --> 00:36:09,109 Speaker 3: talks about can be applied for all children. The best 755 00:36:09,149 --> 00:36:11,109 Speaker 3: thing that I took out of it was this concept 756 00:36:11,189 --> 00:36:14,829 Speaker 3: of time ins. Now you've probably heard of time outs, 757 00:36:15,229 --> 00:36:18,429 Speaker 3: but no one should be implementing time outs without also 758 00:36:18,549 --> 00:36:22,229 Speaker 3: implementing time ins. Doctor Shapiro says that the whole concept 759 00:36:22,309 --> 00:36:25,669 Speaker 3: of timeouts as a form of discipline was only ever 760 00:36:25,709 --> 00:36:29,189 Speaker 3: meant to be implemented if you were also doing time in. Okay, 761 00:36:29,309 --> 00:36:31,589 Speaker 3: so let me explain what a time in is. The 762 00:36:31,629 --> 00:36:34,349 Speaker 3: idea of a time in is committing to spending a 763 00:36:34,469 --> 00:36:37,269 Speaker 3: small amount of time with your kid one on one, 764 00:36:37,749 --> 00:36:40,189 Speaker 3: not with your partner, not with your other kid. He 765 00:36:40,229 --> 00:36:44,269 Speaker 3: talks about actually when you have a triad group, the 766 00:36:44,389 --> 00:36:47,509 Speaker 3: kid feels that the attention is being divided. So, for instance, 767 00:36:47,589 --> 00:36:49,949 Speaker 3: I have two kids, and obviously is easier for me 768 00:36:50,029 --> 00:36:51,749 Speaker 3: if I'm spending time with them to spend time with 769 00:36:51,829 --> 00:36:54,029 Speaker 3: both of them. And that is what happens the vast 770 00:36:54,109 --> 00:36:57,669 Speaker 3: majority of the time, but he just asks that every 771 00:36:57,789 --> 00:37:00,189 Speaker 3: now and then, if you can carve out some one 772 00:37:00,349 --> 00:37:02,909 Speaker 3: on one time with the kid, and even if it's 773 00:37:02,909 --> 00:37:06,829 Speaker 3: five minutes, you will see really powerful results in terms 774 00:37:06,869 --> 00:37:10,309 Speaker 3: of your connection with them. And he doctor Shapiro Jill 775 00:37:10,429 --> 00:37:13,109 Speaker 3: does this with his adult sums. He's still like he'll 776 00:37:13,149 --> 00:37:15,709 Speaker 3: meet them for a coffee and think to himself, this 777 00:37:15,749 --> 00:37:17,469 Speaker 3: is a time in, so there are some rules of 778 00:37:17,469 --> 00:37:20,429 Speaker 3: the time in you can't ask questions. That was really 779 00:37:20,469 --> 00:37:23,469 Speaker 3: surprising to me because I think we're taught as adults 780 00:37:23,469 --> 00:37:26,029 Speaker 3: that the way you show interest in someone is by 781 00:37:26,069 --> 00:37:29,029 Speaker 3: asking a question. But he explains that to a child, 782 00:37:29,109 --> 00:37:33,149 Speaker 3: and in fact, potentially to adults, a question is stressful. 783 00:37:33,389 --> 00:37:36,589 Speaker 3: It requires a response. By asking the question, you are 784 00:37:36,749 --> 00:37:39,869 Speaker 3: requiring someone to answer you, and that's not the point 785 00:37:39,909 --> 00:37:41,869 Speaker 3: of the time in. You are not requiring anything of 786 00:37:41,909 --> 00:37:45,829 Speaker 3: your child. You cannot issue instructions to them or commands 787 00:37:45,829 --> 00:37:49,949 Speaker 3: to them, and you can't use your phone. That's pretty obvious. Again, 788 00:37:50,029 --> 00:37:52,869 Speaker 3: five minutes is fine. It's really hard though, even for 789 00:37:52,949 --> 00:37:55,469 Speaker 3: five minutes to not ask a question, to not issue 790 00:37:55,469 --> 00:37:57,509 Speaker 3: a command, or to not sort of sneak in a 791 00:37:57,509 --> 00:38:00,149 Speaker 3: little learning, like just say, they draw a tree and 792 00:38:00,189 --> 00:38:02,189 Speaker 3: you're like, you know, the thing about trees is that 793 00:38:02,269 --> 00:38:06,069 Speaker 3: they emit oxygen and taking cavender excite. Do not teach 794 00:38:06,109 --> 00:38:08,269 Speaker 3: them anything. This is not a teaching time. You were 795 00:38:08,349 --> 00:38:11,749 Speaker 3: led by them. I'm not very good at it. But 796 00:38:11,949 --> 00:38:14,789 Speaker 3: the other weekend I spent one on one time with 797 00:38:15,069 --> 00:38:17,589 Speaker 3: my child and I tried to take those principles into 798 00:38:17,589 --> 00:38:22,069 Speaker 3: our conversation and it was really great. I felt like 799 00:38:22,109 --> 00:38:25,509 Speaker 3: we got to spend time together. It was an afternoon 800 00:38:25,549 --> 00:38:27,989 Speaker 3: we spent together, and obviously I issued commands and ask 801 00:38:28,069 --> 00:38:30,669 Speaker 3: questions over the course of the afternoon. But I noticed 802 00:38:30,709 --> 00:38:34,789 Speaker 3: in the days afterwards that our relationship felt much easier 803 00:38:35,069 --> 00:38:38,069 Speaker 3: than it would have had we not had the time 804 00:38:38,109 --> 00:38:39,349 Speaker 3: in so good. 805 00:38:39,429 --> 00:38:41,029 Speaker 1: And I think it's one of those good things because 806 00:38:41,029 --> 00:38:43,469 Speaker 1: we spend so much time like correction and direction, as 807 00:38:43,509 --> 00:38:45,469 Speaker 1: you said, like you're either telling them what to do 808 00:38:45,669 --> 00:38:47,709 Speaker 1: or steering them towards something else, to just like be 809 00:38:47,829 --> 00:38:48,429 Speaker 1: there with them. 810 00:38:48,469 --> 00:38:51,029 Speaker 2: So yeah, Maggie Dent, I know we keep going banging 811 00:38:51,029 --> 00:38:53,069 Speaker 2: on about Maggie Dent. She talks about how kids will 812 00:38:53,069 --> 00:38:54,549 Speaker 2: have this cup and you've got to fill it up 813 00:38:54,549 --> 00:38:57,069 Speaker 2: every day and sounds like the time in is like 814 00:38:57,509 --> 00:38:58,629 Speaker 2: very filling of the cup. 815 00:38:59,109 --> 00:39:01,989 Speaker 3: And again, like he says, aim for like five to 816 00:39:02,109 --> 00:39:04,389 Speaker 3: seven minutes once a week. And you might hear that 817 00:39:04,429 --> 00:39:07,789 Speaker 3: and think that sounds well a weight, it's hard. I mean, 818 00:39:07,909 --> 00:39:10,509 Speaker 3: that's why I love his advice. It's not unreal stick 819 00:39:10,789 --> 00:39:13,109 Speaker 3: like it's like five to seven minutes a week, aim 820 00:39:13,189 --> 00:39:13,709 Speaker 3: for a time in. 821 00:39:14,469 --> 00:39:17,589 Speaker 2: All right, girls, that's all we have time for parenting, culture, 822 00:39:17,629 --> 00:39:20,749 Speaker 2: news trends this week. But friends, if you have a 823 00:39:20,749 --> 00:39:23,949 Speaker 2: friend of yours that would really get this conversation and 824 00:39:24,069 --> 00:39:26,709 Speaker 2: like this show, you should send it to them or 825 00:39:26,869 --> 00:39:28,509 Speaker 2: tell them about it. That's how we're going to grow 826 00:39:28,549 --> 00:39:31,589 Speaker 2: this little community of ours, just one person at a time. 827 00:39:31,669 --> 00:39:34,029 Speaker 2: And people are always looking for new podcasts to add 828 00:39:34,029 --> 00:39:37,029 Speaker 2: to their rotations. So be the friend that gives someone 829 00:39:37,229 --> 00:39:39,949 Speaker 2: a good one to try. A big thanks to our 830 00:39:39,989 --> 00:39:44,149 Speaker 2: team this week. Junior content producer Tessakotovic, our senior producer 831 00:39:44,229 --> 00:39:47,709 Speaker 2: Leah Porges and executive producer Sashtanic and the group EPE 832 00:39:47,869 --> 00:39:50,909 Speaker 2: is Ruth Devine, and you are Stacey, and you're Amelia, 833 00:39:50,949 --> 00:39:53,029 Speaker 2: and I'm Monique. We are I have a great week. 834 00:39:53,069 --> 00:39:55,269 Speaker 2: We'll be back in the feed next Saturday morning, see 835 00:39:55,309 --> 00:39:58,149 Speaker 2: you later bye bye