1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,302 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges the 2 00:00:16,342 --> 00:00:20,182 Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was recorded 3 00:00:20,182 --> 00:00:29,222 Speaker 1: on It's November thirty, twenty twenty one, and the twelve 4 00:00:29,302 --> 00:00:32,182 Speaker 1: hundred students at Oxford High School in Michigan are filing 5 00:00:32,222 --> 00:00:36,222 Speaker 1: back to class after their lunch break. There's chatting and laughing, 6 00:00:36,502 --> 00:00:39,142 Speaker 1: kids running up and down the hall, doors being opened 7 00:00:39,182 --> 00:00:42,662 Speaker 1: and closed, teachers calling out for order. Everything you would 8 00:00:42,702 --> 00:00:47,182 Speaker 1: expect at twelve fifty pm on a Tuesday afternoon. But 9 00:00:47,222 --> 00:00:50,182 Speaker 1: the normalcy comes to an end in an instant as 10 00:00:50,222 --> 00:00:54,102 Speaker 1: gunshots echo down the halls. A boy armed with a 11 00:00:54,182 --> 00:00:58,902 Speaker 1: gun has started shooting his classmates. More than one hundred 12 00:00:59,022 --> 00:01:01,822 Speaker 1: nine one one calls are made during the next few minutes. 13 00:01:02,702 --> 00:01:05,582 Speaker 1: The two roads leading to the school are blocked as 14 00:01:05,622 --> 00:01:12,142 Speaker 1: emergency services swarm. Children. Teenagers lay bleeding and dying as 15 00:01:12,142 --> 00:01:16,982 Speaker 1: the shooter, a child himself, goes classroom to classroom, and 16 00:01:17,062 --> 00:01:20,982 Speaker 1: as quickly as it starts, it's all over. The fifteen 17 00:01:21,022 --> 00:01:24,342 Speaker 1: year old shooter spent just nine minutes hunting down victims 18 00:01:24,342 --> 00:01:29,062 Speaker 1: and unloading rounds before being apprehended by police. But in 19 00:01:29,102 --> 00:01:32,982 Speaker 1: those nine minutes, he changed the small town of Oxford Forever. 20 00:01:43,942 --> 00:01:47,422 Speaker 1: I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime Conversations, a 21 00:01:47,502 --> 00:01:51,302 Speaker 1: Muma Mere podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by 22 00:01:51,302 --> 00:01:54,222 Speaker 1: speaking to the people who know the most about them. 23 00:01:54,462 --> 00:01:56,662 Speaker 1: What a fifteen year old student unleashed on his high 24 00:01:56,662 --> 00:02:00,022 Speaker 1: school in twenty twenty one didn't just land himself in prison, 25 00:02:00,462 --> 00:02:03,342 Speaker 1: He took his parents down with him. Our guests today 26 00:02:03,382 --> 00:02:06,182 Speaker 1: have chosen not to name the teenager to deny him 27 00:02:06,222 --> 00:02:09,902 Speaker 1: the satisfaction he so desperately craves, so we're following their lead. 28 00:02:11,102 --> 00:02:15,422 Speaker 1: School shootings aren't uncommon in America, but this school shooting was. 29 00:02:16,422 --> 00:02:19,782 Speaker 1: Jennifer and James Crumbly became the first parents convicted in 30 00:02:19,822 --> 00:02:23,062 Speaker 1: a US mass school shooting, and it was no small sentence. 31 00:02:23,742 --> 00:02:27,862 Speaker 1: They each received at least ten years in prison. In 32 00:02:27,902 --> 00:02:31,102 Speaker 1: handing down their sentences, the judge said the convictions were 33 00:02:31,102 --> 00:02:34,942 Speaker 1: not about bad parenting. It was about repeated acts or 34 00:02:35,022 --> 00:02:38,942 Speaker 1: lack of acts, that could have halted an oncoming runaway train. 35 00:02:39,662 --> 00:02:42,542 Speaker 1: It was about repeatedly ignoring things that would have made 36 00:02:42,582 --> 00:02:44,382 Speaker 1: the hair stand up on the back of a reasonable 37 00:02:44,422 --> 00:02:49,462 Speaker 1: person's neck. It was about being criminally negligent. Their son 38 00:02:50,102 --> 00:02:54,302 Speaker 1: had meticulously planned, talked about, and journaled about his plans 39 00:02:54,302 --> 00:02:57,702 Speaker 1: to become the next school shooter on multiple occasions. 40 00:02:58,662 --> 00:03:03,742 Speaker 2: I can't start thinking about him. It's constantly in my 41 00:03:03,902 --> 00:03:13,182 Speaker 2: head every conversation I had with someone station about it. 42 00:03:14,502 --> 00:03:18,862 Speaker 1: On the day he followed through, his dad feared the worst. 43 00:03:18,942 --> 00:03:22,942 Speaker 3: What's the location of your emergency? Okay, I'm not really sure. 44 00:03:23,462 --> 00:03:27,222 Speaker 3: I'm at my house. There's an active shooter situation going 45 00:03:27,262 --> 00:03:28,102 Speaker 3: on at the high school. 46 00:03:28,582 --> 00:03:30,022 Speaker 4: My son goes to the high school. 47 00:03:30,462 --> 00:03:33,662 Speaker 3: I have a missing gun at my house. I need 48 00:03:33,702 --> 00:03:36,382 Speaker 3: an officer to come to my house right away, please. Okay, 49 00:03:36,422 --> 00:03:37,742 Speaker 3: I'm not going to be able to send anybody to 50 00:03:37,782 --> 00:03:40,302 Speaker 3: your house right now, so they're they're on the active 51 00:03:40,302 --> 00:03:43,462 Speaker 3: shooter situation right now. I understand that there's a million 52 00:03:44,902 --> 00:03:47,862 Speaker 3: I have a missing gun, and my son was at 53 00:03:47,902 --> 00:03:51,942 Speaker 3: the school and we had to go meet with the 54 00:03:52,022 --> 00:03:56,662 Speaker 3: counselor this morning because of something that he wrote. 55 00:03:56,382 --> 00:03:57,342 Speaker 4: On a test paper. 56 00:03:57,782 --> 00:04:00,382 Speaker 3: And then I was in town and I saw a 57 00:04:00,382 --> 00:04:03,542 Speaker 3: whole bunch of cops going somewhere. 58 00:04:03,342 --> 00:04:06,982 Speaker 4: And I made sure that I wanted to get to 59 00:04:07,022 --> 00:04:08,942 Speaker 4: the high school to see someone's going on to high school. 60 00:04:09,222 --> 00:04:11,422 Speaker 4: And then somebody told me that there with makeet shooter 61 00:04:11,902 --> 00:04:15,942 Speaker 4: and then I wait calm just to find out, and 62 00:04:16,262 --> 00:04:18,142 Speaker 4: I think my son took the gun. 63 00:04:18,342 --> 00:04:18,862 Speaker 3: I don't know. 64 00:04:19,022 --> 00:04:22,822 Speaker 4: If I don't know what's going on, I'm really freaking out. 65 00:04:23,542 --> 00:04:26,582 Speaker 1: Jessica Lalba and Cooper Mole are the producers behind Sins 66 00:04:26,622 --> 00:04:30,262 Speaker 1: of the Child, a new seven part podcast series investigating 67 00:04:30,342 --> 00:04:33,902 Speaker 1: the Oxford High School shooting and the Crumbly family. Their 68 00:04:33,942 --> 00:04:36,982 Speaker 1: analysis aims to unpick some of the most complex questions 69 00:04:37,062 --> 00:04:41,022 Speaker 1: within this story about community, school responsibility and the role 70 00:04:41,142 --> 00:04:44,542 Speaker 1: parents have in their children's lives. To tell us about 71 00:04:44,542 --> 00:04:48,102 Speaker 1: the case and their findings, Jessica and Cooper join us now. 72 00:04:57,182 --> 00:04:59,702 Speaker 1: I want to start with Oxford the place. From what 73 00:04:59,782 --> 00:05:03,502 Speaker 1: I'm gathering, it's quite a small town. Country vibe took 74 00:05:03,542 --> 00:05:03,942 Speaker 1: me through it. 75 00:05:04,582 --> 00:05:07,462 Speaker 5: Oxford itself is a town of about four thousand people. 76 00:05:07,502 --> 00:05:13,222 Speaker 5: It's a small town and it is quite conservative. It 77 00:05:13,422 --> 00:05:19,062 Speaker 5: resides somewhere in the seventy most affluent counties in the country, 78 00:05:20,022 --> 00:05:23,062 Speaker 5: so most of the folks there are wealthy. It is 79 00:05:23,142 --> 00:05:27,742 Speaker 5: definitely a quaint small town. Everybody knows everybody. It definitely 80 00:05:27,862 --> 00:05:32,342 Speaker 5: kind of hearkens back to a twentieth century sitcom like 81 00:05:32,502 --> 00:05:36,022 Speaker 5: Leave It to Beaver or one of those more suburban 82 00:05:37,422 --> 00:05:43,142 Speaker 5: landscapes with the picket fences and the clapboard houses and 83 00:05:43,262 --> 00:05:46,582 Speaker 5: manicured lawns and cul de sacs, and you know, the 84 00:05:46,702 --> 00:05:48,182 Speaker 5: kind of place where kids are playing in. 85 00:05:48,222 --> 00:05:51,222 Speaker 6: The neighborhood and feel safe to be there. 86 00:05:51,822 --> 00:05:55,342 Speaker 5: One thing about Oxford is a lot of people come there, 87 00:05:55,422 --> 00:05:57,822 Speaker 5: you know, from the Detroit metro area on the weekends 88 00:05:57,982 --> 00:06:01,182 Speaker 5: to patronize that got like a town square that is 89 00:06:01,862 --> 00:06:04,182 Speaker 5: actually a United States historical site. 90 00:06:04,302 --> 00:06:05,422 Speaker 6: It's very colonial. 91 00:06:05,662 --> 00:06:09,102 Speaker 5: Lots of breweries and pizza parlors and gift shops and 92 00:06:09,262 --> 00:06:13,142 Speaker 5: you know, artisanal goods. And two things that are very 93 00:06:13,222 --> 00:06:17,102 Speaker 5: big in Oxford are equestrian life, so people are really 94 00:06:17,142 --> 00:06:20,262 Speaker 5: into horses there. And another big part of the culture 95 00:06:20,422 --> 00:06:23,662 Speaker 5: is guns, and people are very into hunting there and 96 00:06:24,902 --> 00:06:27,422 Speaker 5: it is not uncommon certain times of the school year. 97 00:06:27,462 --> 00:06:29,182 Speaker 5: I'm not too sure if this is still a thing, 98 00:06:29,702 --> 00:06:33,902 Speaker 5: but school will begin later in the day so families 99 00:06:33,982 --> 00:06:36,382 Speaker 5: and their children can hunt in the morning before school. 100 00:06:36,902 --> 00:06:38,902 Speaker 5: So guns are definitely a big part of the culture there. 101 00:06:38,982 --> 00:06:42,862 Speaker 5: It's a much more conservative township. And another thing about 102 00:06:42,862 --> 00:06:44,702 Speaker 5: it is if you have kids, everybody goes to Oxford 103 00:06:44,742 --> 00:06:46,462 Speaker 5: High School, that is the high school there. 104 00:06:47,462 --> 00:06:49,982 Speaker 7: And one of the things that Cooper found in her 105 00:06:50,062 --> 00:06:54,262 Speaker 7: research was that football was really put this area on 106 00:06:54,382 --> 00:06:57,742 Speaker 7: the map for Oxford, and if you knew about Oxford, 107 00:06:57,782 --> 00:07:00,262 Speaker 7: you knew about them because of their football team. And 108 00:07:00,582 --> 00:07:03,022 Speaker 7: you know, Friday night lights is kind of like the 109 00:07:03,142 --> 00:07:05,742 Speaker 7: vibe in that town. Everybody goes to the games on 110 00:07:05,822 --> 00:07:08,942 Speaker 7: Friday nights. Until this tragedy happened. 111 00:07:10,142 --> 00:07:13,942 Speaker 1: The outside, As an Australian looking into America, school shootings 112 00:07:14,262 --> 00:07:17,702 Speaker 1: seem to have some kind of regularity over there. We 113 00:07:17,822 --> 00:07:20,782 Speaker 1: don't have that kind of thing happen at all really here, 114 00:07:21,222 --> 00:07:22,742 Speaker 1: so when we look over there, we see it as 115 00:07:22,822 --> 00:07:24,822 Speaker 1: quite a common thing. But I've seen a lot of 116 00:07:25,542 --> 00:07:29,462 Speaker 1: commentary about Oxford saying that that particular place, it was 117 00:07:29,502 --> 00:07:32,542 Speaker 1: a surprise for something to happen like that there. Why 118 00:07:32,702 --> 00:07:33,382 Speaker 1: is that the case? 119 00:07:34,062 --> 00:07:36,262 Speaker 5: Gosh, I mean, I would imagine, you know, from how 120 00:07:36,302 --> 00:07:39,222 Speaker 5: it's been characterized the subjects that we've spoken to and 121 00:07:39,302 --> 00:07:42,342 Speaker 5: in my research is that it seems like the type 122 00:07:42,382 --> 00:07:45,022 Speaker 5: of place where people really look out for one another. 123 00:07:45,782 --> 00:07:49,142 Speaker 5: People have known one another's kids since they were babies. 124 00:07:49,902 --> 00:07:54,302 Speaker 5: Teachers there have taught generations of a family. Another thing 125 00:07:54,302 --> 00:07:57,102 Speaker 5: about it is people have been in Oxford, have lived 126 00:07:57,102 --> 00:08:00,382 Speaker 5: there for a long time. It's not necessarily the type 127 00:08:00,382 --> 00:08:03,862 Speaker 5: of place you go and transplant to. From what I understand, 128 00:08:04,582 --> 00:08:06,982 Speaker 5: there is a certain type of You grow up there, 129 00:08:07,182 --> 00:08:09,862 Speaker 5: you stay there, you raise your family there, your kids 130 00:08:09,942 --> 00:08:14,102 Speaker 5: then based family there. So I think that there's not 131 00:08:14,302 --> 00:08:19,262 Speaker 5: a lot of stranger danger going on there, and everybody's 132 00:08:19,342 --> 00:08:22,782 Speaker 5: kind of keeping tabs on everybody, not in a nefarious way. 133 00:08:22,902 --> 00:08:27,822 Speaker 5: It's just there's a palpable community there and. 134 00:08:27,942 --> 00:08:31,662 Speaker 1: Like you say, Oxford pies where everyone goes. So take 135 00:08:31,742 --> 00:08:34,502 Speaker 1: us there. On November thirty, twenty twenty one, the school 136 00:08:34,662 --> 00:08:39,222 Speaker 1: is sent into disarray when someone starts opening fire. Where 137 00:08:39,302 --> 00:08:42,782 Speaker 1: do the gunshots start? And what do the next few minutes, 138 00:08:42,822 --> 00:08:45,182 Speaker 1: because it really is only minutes, What do they look like? 139 00:08:46,182 --> 00:08:51,502 Speaker 5: So this is essentially what happens on November thirtieth, twenty 140 00:08:51,582 --> 00:08:57,022 Speaker 5: twenty one, twelve fifty one pm, just after the lunch 141 00:08:57,102 --> 00:09:01,742 Speaker 5: hour for the students, gunshots that many students have now 142 00:09:02,582 --> 00:09:08,342 Speaker 5: described as the sound of balloons popping began to come 143 00:09:08,542 --> 00:09:14,062 Speaker 5: from the south end of the main hallway where students 144 00:09:14,102 --> 00:09:19,182 Speaker 5: have their lockers, et cetera. And within one minute, so 145 00:09:19,342 --> 00:09:22,022 Speaker 5: now it's twelve fifty two pm. There have been over 146 00:09:22,102 --> 00:09:25,022 Speaker 5: one hundred phone calls to the local nine one one 147 00:09:25,062 --> 00:09:30,102 Speaker 5: dispatch center, and the cops are already on their way there. 148 00:09:30,782 --> 00:09:34,022 Speaker 5: Reporters and cops have already caught wind of this, so 149 00:09:34,782 --> 00:09:38,102 Speaker 5: the nature of this is spotty. Details are emerging. You've 150 00:09:38,142 --> 00:09:40,702 Speaker 5: got tons of scared kids calling their parents, calling nine 151 00:09:40,702 --> 00:09:45,062 Speaker 5: to one one operators, and they can't really answer questions 152 00:09:45,142 --> 00:09:48,582 Speaker 5: as to what they're seeing because they're concerned about barricading themselves, 153 00:09:48,702 --> 00:09:52,822 Speaker 5: running away, et cetera. So from the hallway, the shooter 154 00:09:52,942 --> 00:09:56,662 Speaker 5: starts to make his way east through the building, indiscriminately 155 00:09:57,102 --> 00:10:01,182 Speaker 5: striking students. He is not targeting people he personally knows 156 00:10:01,342 --> 00:10:05,782 Speaker 5: or has any personal vendettas against. It is complete indiscriminate killing. 157 00:10:06,862 --> 00:10:11,742 Speaker 5: And the first person he shoots is is a young 158 00:10:11,862 --> 00:10:17,702 Speaker 5: girl running down the hallway, and then he shoots another 159 00:10:17,822 --> 00:10:20,102 Speaker 5: girl in the back of the head. And this is 160 00:10:20,262 --> 00:10:25,422 Speaker 5: particularly eerie because in the manifesto, if you will, the 161 00:10:25,542 --> 00:10:27,462 Speaker 5: tape he recorded the night before the shooting, and we 162 00:10:27,502 --> 00:10:30,942 Speaker 5: can get into that later, clearly states that the first 163 00:10:31,222 --> 00:10:34,102 Speaker 5: person he wants to shoot is a pretty girl in 164 00:10:34,222 --> 00:10:38,702 Speaker 5: the face, and that is precisely what he did. So 165 00:10:39,742 --> 00:10:42,702 Speaker 5: at this point, somehow parents have already caught wait of 166 00:10:42,742 --> 00:10:45,422 Speaker 5: what's going on. Worldly About like two three minutes into 167 00:10:45,502 --> 00:10:50,102 Speaker 5: this shooting, somebody posts onto an Oxford mom's Facebook group 168 00:10:50,462 --> 00:10:53,982 Speaker 5: and certain parents are driving towards the school, but the 169 00:10:54,022 --> 00:10:57,982 Speaker 5: streets have been barricaded because law enforcements is shutting down 170 00:10:58,022 --> 00:11:01,382 Speaker 5: the roads into the school because they don't know if 171 00:11:01,462 --> 00:11:03,462 Speaker 5: the shooter is a student yet, so if the shooter 172 00:11:03,782 --> 00:11:06,542 Speaker 5: got there by car, they want to make sure he 173 00:11:06,662 --> 00:11:08,182 Speaker 5: or she cannot leave by car. 174 00:11:08,422 --> 00:11:11,902 Speaker 6: Right, So, shooter still moving east down the hallway. 175 00:11:12,662 --> 00:11:16,702 Speaker 5: Students and teachers are barricading themselves in classrooms here in America, 176 00:11:17,502 --> 00:11:21,102 Speaker 5: because this is not a super one off event here, 177 00:11:21,222 --> 00:11:24,702 Speaker 5: as we just recently talked about, Typically in school you 178 00:11:24,822 --> 00:11:27,662 Speaker 5: do active shooter drill, so the teachers and the students 179 00:11:28,142 --> 00:11:30,062 Speaker 5: had already been privy on what to do. 180 00:11:31,102 --> 00:11:33,542 Speaker 6: So we're about two three minutes into the shooting. 181 00:11:33,622 --> 00:11:37,542 Speaker 5: The shooter changes magazines and then starts heading north up 182 00:11:37,662 --> 00:11:42,662 Speaker 5: the hall He turns around, shoots into a classroom, walks 183 00:11:42,742 --> 00:11:45,742 Speaker 5: south again. I can't even imagine what's going on in 184 00:11:45,822 --> 00:11:48,382 Speaker 5: the panic these students are feeling inside the classroom at 185 00:11:48,422 --> 00:11:52,942 Speaker 5: this time. Then three minutes after the first shots were heard, 186 00:11:53,302 --> 00:11:58,022 Speaker 5: the shooter enters the boys' bathroom and encounters two students, 187 00:11:58,582 --> 00:12:05,902 Speaker 5: a senior and a freshman. Inside this bathroom, the senior 188 00:12:06,622 --> 00:12:11,262 Speaker 5: is instructing the freshman to hide in the stall so 189 00:12:11,382 --> 00:12:13,542 Speaker 5: that the shooter cannot see their feet, to get up 190 00:12:13,582 --> 00:12:17,782 Speaker 5: and crouch down on the toilet, so the shooter walks in. 191 00:12:18,062 --> 00:12:21,222 Speaker 5: Once he leaves, the two boys are left in the 192 00:12:21,302 --> 00:12:26,142 Speaker 5: stall hiding, texting their parents what's going on. The shooter 193 00:12:26,262 --> 00:12:30,662 Speaker 5: then comes back into the bathroom, orders the senior to 194 00:12:30,782 --> 00:12:34,302 Speaker 5: come out of the stall and the freshman to stand 195 00:12:34,422 --> 00:12:39,142 Speaker 5: up against the wall. He then shoots the senior right 196 00:12:39,222 --> 00:12:42,502 Speaker 5: in front of the freshmen, and that is the last 197 00:12:42,902 --> 00:12:47,342 Speaker 5: person he shoots, seventeen year old Justin Schilling before the 198 00:12:47,422 --> 00:12:51,022 Speaker 5: gunfire ceases around twelve fifty six PM, when the first 199 00:12:51,102 --> 00:12:55,622 Speaker 5: two deputies come into Oxford High School and begin to 200 00:12:55,702 --> 00:13:01,342 Speaker 5: search for the shooter with guns drawn at around one PM, 201 00:13:01,462 --> 00:13:05,822 Speaker 5: so this is only nine minutes after the first shots 202 00:13:05,982 --> 00:13:09,182 Speaker 5: rang out. He steps out of the boy's bathroom and 203 00:13:09,822 --> 00:13:13,702 Speaker 5: kneels down puts his hands up, which is somewhat an 204 00:13:13,702 --> 00:13:16,382 Speaker 5: anomaly in these circumstances. We hear a lot of times 205 00:13:16,782 --> 00:13:20,502 Speaker 5: the assailient will either turn the gun on themselves or 206 00:13:20,662 --> 00:13:25,062 Speaker 5: maybe antagonize law enforcements so they can do suicide by police. 207 00:13:25,262 --> 00:13:29,382 Speaker 5: We've seen that happen before as well, so law enforcement 208 00:13:29,502 --> 00:13:31,862 Speaker 5: that we've spoken to tell us that the whole thing 209 00:13:32,142 --> 00:13:35,742 Speaker 5: was really, and this may sound crude, wrapped up in 210 00:13:35,822 --> 00:13:37,782 Speaker 5: about thirteen to fifteen minutes. 211 00:13:38,542 --> 00:13:40,822 Speaker 1: It's amazing how much damage someone can do in such 212 00:13:40,822 --> 00:13:42,062 Speaker 1: a short period of time. 213 00:13:42,782 --> 00:13:45,622 Speaker 7: One of the key interviews that we did for Sins 214 00:13:45,622 --> 00:13:48,742 Speaker 7: of the Child was with Oakland County Sheriff Mike Bouchard. 215 00:13:49,422 --> 00:13:52,262 Speaker 7: His team was the team that responded to the high 216 00:13:52,262 --> 00:13:55,302 Speaker 7: school that day. They had been trained for this. They 217 00:13:56,182 --> 00:14:01,902 Speaker 7: found eighteen live rounds left in his gun. They firmly 218 00:14:01,982 --> 00:14:04,582 Speaker 7: believe that he planned to shoot every single one of them, 219 00:14:05,262 --> 00:14:08,222 Speaker 7: but we know from listening to his manifesto that he 220 00:14:08,382 --> 00:14:12,182 Speaker 7: planned to surrender. He did not want to kill himself, 221 00:14:12,302 --> 00:14:15,022 Speaker 7: He did not want to do suicide by cop. He 222 00:14:15,262 --> 00:14:18,782 Speaker 7: wanted to surrender, and he says it's because he wanted 223 00:14:18,782 --> 00:14:21,502 Speaker 7: the notoriety. He wanted people to use his name and 224 00:14:21,662 --> 00:14:26,062 Speaker 7: forever associate him with this terrible act. We choose not 225 00:14:26,222 --> 00:14:29,022 Speaker 7: to use his name in the podcast. Some of our 226 00:14:29,062 --> 00:14:31,582 Speaker 7: contributors do. We're not going to stop them from doing that, 227 00:14:31,822 --> 00:14:33,622 Speaker 7: but we don't use his name. 228 00:14:34,062 --> 00:14:36,542 Speaker 5: Yeah, it does become clear he did have this obsession 229 00:14:36,582 --> 00:14:39,102 Speaker 5: with notoriety, wanting to be remembered as a school shooter 230 00:14:39,662 --> 00:14:43,262 Speaker 5: and stay alive, not kill himself. And there are a 231 00:14:43,342 --> 00:14:49,302 Speaker 5: few instances where he references the Parkland school shooter as 232 00:14:49,462 --> 00:14:50,142 Speaker 5: his idol. 233 00:14:51,422 --> 00:14:53,502 Speaker 1: Before we get into that, I'd like to know a 234 00:14:53,542 --> 00:14:56,822 Speaker 1: little bit more about the victims, because we had full 235 00:14:56,902 --> 00:15:01,462 Speaker 1: people killed, multiple people injured. Can you tell us a 236 00:15:01,502 --> 00:15:03,862 Speaker 1: little bit about some of them and some of the 237 00:15:03,902 --> 00:15:05,382 Speaker 1: people that lost their lives that day. 238 00:15:06,902 --> 00:15:09,942 Speaker 5: So by the end of the day it was reported 239 00:15:09,982 --> 00:15:13,142 Speaker 5: that three eight teenagers have died, so seventeen year old 240 00:15:13,222 --> 00:15:17,542 Speaker 5: Madison Baldwin, sixteen year old Tape Mire, and fourteen year old. 241 00:15:17,422 --> 00:15:18,462 Speaker 6: Hanna Saint Juliana. 242 00:15:19,102 --> 00:15:23,822 Speaker 5: And at the time, I believe that there were seven 243 00:15:24,502 --> 00:15:30,782 Speaker 5: other injuries, many of them critical, including one teacher and that. 244 00:15:30,902 --> 00:15:31,782 Speaker 6: Was Mollie Darnell. 245 00:15:32,702 --> 00:15:36,702 Speaker 5: And by the next morning, December one, twenty twenty one, 246 00:15:37,422 --> 00:15:41,102 Speaker 5: news had broke that seventeen year old Justin Shilling, who 247 00:15:41,262 --> 00:15:44,422 Speaker 5: was the senior in the bathroom with the freshmen, did 248 00:15:44,502 --> 00:15:48,382 Speaker 5: not survive his injuries, so in total there were four victims. 249 00:15:49,222 --> 00:15:51,582 Speaker 7: We use a lot of trial audio in the podcast 250 00:15:51,782 --> 00:15:55,702 Speaker 7: from multiple hearings, and the parents each had a trial 251 00:15:55,822 --> 00:16:00,022 Speaker 7: and so one of the biggest pieces of tape that 252 00:16:00,182 --> 00:16:03,262 Speaker 7: we use in our show. We have an entire episode 253 00:16:03,302 --> 00:16:07,382 Speaker 7: dedicated to the victim impact statements, and that's because we 254 00:16:07,462 --> 00:16:09,742 Speaker 7: want to keep the victims at the forefront of this 255 00:16:10,102 --> 00:16:13,822 Speaker 7: and at the victim impact statement or at the sentencing 256 00:16:13,902 --> 00:16:16,942 Speaker 7: hearing for the shooter, the victims were invited to give 257 00:16:16,982 --> 00:16:21,222 Speaker 7: their victim impact statements and that included Justin Schilling's parents, 258 00:16:21,342 --> 00:16:27,342 Speaker 7: Jill Suave and Craig Shilling. Madison Baldwin's mother spoke, Nicole 259 00:16:27,422 --> 00:16:32,062 Speaker 7: Bausilet and Hanna Saint Juliana's sister and father spoke Steve 260 00:16:32,102 --> 00:16:35,982 Speaker 7: Saint Juliana, and Rayna Saint Juliana. Rayna spoke on behalf 261 00:16:36,022 --> 00:16:37,982 Speaker 7: of her mother as well, because I have to imagine 262 00:16:38,022 --> 00:16:41,342 Speaker 7: that it was extremely difficult for her mother to face 263 00:16:41,822 --> 00:16:44,422 Speaker 7: the idea of standing up in front of her daughter's 264 00:16:44,502 --> 00:16:46,982 Speaker 7: killer and reading a statement I know that I could 265 00:16:47,022 --> 00:16:51,662 Speaker 7: never and for Tate Muhror, his father really gave one 266 00:16:51,702 --> 00:16:54,422 Speaker 7: of the most impactful statements that I've ever heard. 267 00:16:54,462 --> 00:16:54,982 Speaker 8: In my life. 268 00:16:55,702 --> 00:16:58,822 Speaker 7: They spoke about their kid's dreams and what their futures 269 00:16:58,902 --> 00:17:01,902 Speaker 7: would have been, and what they imagined their futures to 270 00:17:02,022 --> 00:17:05,222 Speaker 7: be for themselves and for their relationships with their children, 271 00:17:05,262 --> 00:17:08,742 Speaker 7: but also for their children, you know. Steve Saint Juliana says, 272 00:17:09,022 --> 00:17:10,742 Speaker 7: I'm never going to be able to walk my daughter 273 00:17:10,822 --> 00:17:12,622 Speaker 7: down the aisle. I'm not even going to be able 274 00:17:12,662 --> 00:17:15,062 Speaker 7: to see her graduate high school. She just started high 275 00:17:15,062 --> 00:17:18,662 Speaker 7: school three months before this. Her sister says that they 276 00:17:18,702 --> 00:17:22,102 Speaker 7: were super close. They shared clothes, like, they talked about everything. 277 00:17:22,182 --> 00:17:24,302 Speaker 7: And now her sister doesn't even want to get her 278 00:17:24,382 --> 00:17:26,862 Speaker 7: driver's license because what's the point. Her sister's not there 279 00:17:26,942 --> 00:17:30,622 Speaker 7: to be with her anymore. And Steve also said that 280 00:17:30,702 --> 00:17:33,982 Speaker 7: he found a list of careers that Hannah was considering, 281 00:17:34,102 --> 00:17:38,462 Speaker 7: a list of careers in her phone. And so these 282 00:17:38,542 --> 00:17:42,662 Speaker 7: kids had such bright, bright lives ahead of them and 283 00:17:42,822 --> 00:17:48,302 Speaker 7: they were just snuffed out through the aspirations of a 284 00:17:48,462 --> 00:17:49,342 Speaker 7: deranged killer. 285 00:17:50,782 --> 00:17:53,662 Speaker 1: And it's not just those that died, it's the injured, 286 00:17:53,702 --> 00:17:57,022 Speaker 1: but also the friends that watched these people die, the 287 00:17:57,102 --> 00:18:00,542 Speaker 1: students that were terrorized. So many people are impacted when 288 00:18:00,582 --> 00:18:01,542 Speaker 1: something like this happens. 289 00:18:02,382 --> 00:18:07,222 Speaker 5: Yes, I think one of the more compelling moments for 290 00:18:07,422 --> 00:18:12,062 Speaker 5: me in Jill Suave, Justin Shilling's mom's testimony, when she 291 00:18:12,182 --> 00:18:16,262 Speaker 5: spoke of her son. She talks about her son's heart 292 00:18:16,342 --> 00:18:18,182 Speaker 5: and his character and who he was as a person, 293 00:18:18,342 --> 00:18:23,782 Speaker 5: and she specifically says that her son, Justin would have 294 00:18:23,982 --> 00:18:28,902 Speaker 5: been the shooter's friend had he just asked, And something 295 00:18:29,022 --> 00:18:32,262 Speaker 5: about that I think tells you a lot about who 296 00:18:32,462 --> 00:18:35,622 Speaker 5: Justin Shilling was as a person. And we had an 297 00:18:35,622 --> 00:18:39,102 Speaker 5: opportunity to speak with his father, Craig, and that came 298 00:18:39,182 --> 00:18:42,622 Speaker 5: through in our conversation with him as well. But yes, 299 00:18:42,742 --> 00:18:45,102 Speaker 5: to your point about you know, all the others affected, 300 00:18:45,742 --> 00:18:50,142 Speaker 5: that is really was the impetus for Karen MacDonald charging 301 00:18:50,342 --> 00:18:53,542 Speaker 5: the shooter with one kunt of terrorism, which we have 302 00:18:53,742 --> 00:18:55,102 Speaker 5: not seen before in. 303 00:18:55,142 --> 00:18:55,862 Speaker 6: A school shooting. 304 00:18:56,462 --> 00:18:56,862 Speaker 3: Why is that? 305 00:18:57,062 --> 00:18:58,222 Speaker 1: What difference does that make? 306 00:18:58,902 --> 00:19:03,102 Speaker 5: Well, it doesn't necessarily make a difference, but it makes 307 00:19:03,142 --> 00:19:06,382 Speaker 5: a statement. It doesn't bring anyone back, it doesn't heal 308 00:19:06,422 --> 00:19:11,222 Speaker 5: anybody's trauma, but it definitely makes a statement that this 309 00:19:11,422 --> 00:19:15,382 Speaker 5: affects so many more people than the people killed in 310 00:19:15,462 --> 00:19:19,182 Speaker 5: their families, right, I mean additionally, in the shooter sentencing 311 00:19:19,262 --> 00:19:23,542 Speaker 5: hearing and the parent sentencing hearings we hear from survivors 312 00:19:23,822 --> 00:19:28,702 Speaker 5: who talk about the PTSD. They are now living with 313 00:19:29,342 --> 00:19:31,502 Speaker 5: all the little things in their everyday life that they 314 00:19:31,582 --> 00:19:34,782 Speaker 5: now think about that they never did before. November thirtieth, 315 00:19:34,822 --> 00:19:38,582 Speaker 5: twenty twenty one, being in large crowds going to school 316 00:19:39,262 --> 00:19:40,462 Speaker 5: hearing loud noises. 317 00:19:41,102 --> 00:19:44,222 Speaker 7: One of these survivors he said that he can't even 318 00:19:44,302 --> 00:19:46,822 Speaker 7: imagine a life as an adult living in a city 319 00:19:46,902 --> 00:19:48,862 Speaker 7: where there's a lot of noise, there's a lot of people. 320 00:19:49,022 --> 00:19:53,622 Speaker 7: I mean, that just limits their lives so much. And 321 00:19:54,462 --> 00:19:56,502 Speaker 7: you can say that their futures were taken from them 322 00:19:56,542 --> 00:19:59,022 Speaker 7: as well. I mean they still get to live on 323 00:19:59,102 --> 00:20:01,022 Speaker 7: this earth, but not in the same way they were 324 00:20:01,062 --> 00:20:04,422 Speaker 7: here before. So some of the most powerful testimony that 325 00:20:04,542 --> 00:20:07,702 Speaker 7: we play in our podcast is from Christy Gibson Marshall. 326 00:20:08,262 --> 00:20:11,342 Speaker 7: She was next to take mirror as he took his 327 00:20:11,462 --> 00:20:14,022 Speaker 7: last breaths, and she had known him since he was 328 00:20:14,062 --> 00:20:16,702 Speaker 7: three years old because his mom would bring him to 329 00:20:16,782 --> 00:20:20,702 Speaker 7: the school. He had two older brothers, and through tears, 330 00:20:20,902 --> 00:20:25,662 Speaker 7: through gut wrenching testimony and tears, she says it took 331 00:20:25,702 --> 00:20:27,902 Speaker 7: her a year to get the taste of Tate's blood 332 00:20:27,942 --> 00:20:31,142 Speaker 7: out of her mouth because she was trying to resuscitate him. 333 00:20:31,822 --> 00:20:34,382 Speaker 7: I guess I've never listened to testimony from a school 334 00:20:34,382 --> 00:20:37,982 Speaker 7: shooting like this before, And what really struck me is 335 00:20:38,822 --> 00:20:43,422 Speaker 7: just how many people were in that hallway and were 336 00:20:43,582 --> 00:20:48,942 Speaker 7: laying next to dead bodies. And one of the girls 337 00:20:49,102 --> 00:20:52,462 Speaker 7: that speaks in the victim impact statement says that she 338 00:20:52,702 --> 00:20:55,862 Speaker 7: was lying next to Hanna Saint Juliana while she bled out, 339 00:20:55,942 --> 00:20:59,822 Speaker 7: and another one says that I saw Madison get killed, 340 00:20:59,862 --> 00:21:03,382 Speaker 7: and I just don't understand how you can move forward 341 00:21:03,422 --> 00:21:05,582 Speaker 7: from that at such a young age to have something 342 00:21:05,662 --> 00:21:08,582 Speaker 7: so serious happen. And that's why I think the terrorism 343 00:21:08,702 --> 00:21:12,622 Speaker 7: charge was necessary, because if you really want to ensure 344 00:21:12,662 --> 00:21:16,262 Speaker 7: that this person never gets out of prison, that's a 345 00:21:16,302 --> 00:21:16,982 Speaker 7: good way to do it. 346 00:21:22,062 --> 00:21:25,902 Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me Jemma Bath. 347 00:21:26,542 --> 00:21:29,302 Speaker 1: We're talking to Jessica Lauba and Cooper Mole about the 348 00:21:29,382 --> 00:21:32,742 Speaker 1: Oxford High School shooting. Up next, we talk about how 349 00:21:32,782 --> 00:21:36,702 Speaker 1: the parents of a serial killer end up behind bars themselves. 350 00:21:44,222 --> 00:21:45,742 Speaker 1: Let's talk a bit more about the shooter. 351 00:21:46,582 --> 00:21:47,142 Speaker 8: Who was he? 352 00:21:47,262 --> 00:21:49,902 Speaker 1: First of all, let's paint the picture of him and 353 00:21:50,062 --> 00:21:50,662 Speaker 1: his family. 354 00:21:51,382 --> 00:21:56,422 Speaker 5: The shooter was, from what we understand, not your I 355 00:21:56,542 --> 00:22:00,982 Speaker 5: can't believe this is even a noun. You're a typical 356 00:22:01,262 --> 00:22:06,182 Speaker 5: high school shooter. He was not a victim of bullying. 357 00:22:07,062 --> 00:22:11,022 Speaker 5: He did fairly well in school, didn't stand out with 358 00:22:11,142 --> 00:22:11,942 Speaker 5: his appearance. 359 00:22:12,622 --> 00:22:14,302 Speaker 6: He was a loner. 360 00:22:14,782 --> 00:22:17,262 Speaker 5: Other kids who testified even though this is a small 361 00:22:17,302 --> 00:22:19,582 Speaker 5: school in a small town, so that they didn't know him. 362 00:22:19,822 --> 00:22:22,142 Speaker 5: They recognized him but couldn't put a name to his 363 00:22:22,222 --> 00:22:26,622 Speaker 5: face sort of thing. But he was somebody we see 364 00:22:26,702 --> 00:22:31,622 Speaker 5: through his social media and texts, etc. Who was very 365 00:22:32,342 --> 00:22:38,502 Speaker 5: preoccupied with a fascination with firearms and in his spare time, 366 00:22:39,182 --> 00:22:43,462 Speaker 5: it seems that that was his main hobby and a 367 00:22:43,622 --> 00:22:46,742 Speaker 5: hobby that he shared with his parents. That they would 368 00:22:46,742 --> 00:22:48,622 Speaker 5: go to the shooting range the other they would test 369 00:22:48,662 --> 00:22:52,262 Speaker 5: out different guns together. He was well trained and skilled 370 00:22:52,422 --> 00:22:55,942 Speaker 5: with guns. One thing that does end up coming out 371 00:22:55,982 --> 00:22:59,262 Speaker 5: about him in his Miller hearing and the US we 372 00:22:59,382 --> 00:23:01,502 Speaker 5: have if a juvenile is to be eligible for a 373 00:23:01,582 --> 00:23:03,982 Speaker 5: sentence of life without parole, they need to go through 374 00:23:04,702 --> 00:23:07,022 Speaker 5: a process called a Miller hearing, And in a Miller 375 00:23:07,102 --> 00:23:10,542 Speaker 5: hearing is when it's proven whether or not there's a 376 00:23:10,622 --> 00:23:13,902 Speaker 5: chance for this individual to be rehabilitated, and in the 377 00:23:13,982 --> 00:23:16,742 Speaker 5: case of this shooter, they were not able to prove 378 00:23:16,822 --> 00:23:19,982 Speaker 5: that he would be able to be rehabilitated, and testimony 379 00:23:20,062 --> 00:23:23,622 Speaker 5: given during this Miller Hearing shared evidence. 380 00:23:23,422 --> 00:23:26,422 Speaker 6: Of violent behavior in his past. 381 00:23:26,862 --> 00:23:32,702 Speaker 5: Including torturing animals, journal entries, and recorded video of him 382 00:23:32,942 --> 00:23:38,462 Speaker 5: talking about the pleasure that he experienced well torturing baby 383 00:23:38,542 --> 00:23:44,182 Speaker 5: birds specifically, and that he often fantasized about violence. However, 384 00:23:45,142 --> 00:23:50,182 Speaker 5: he also often experienced psychological torment. 385 00:23:50,942 --> 00:23:53,622 Speaker 6: There was part of him that we can see. 386 00:23:53,502 --> 00:23:57,702 Speaker 5: In his text messages that this was not always a 387 00:23:57,822 --> 00:24:00,982 Speaker 5: comfortable place for him to be in his head, that 388 00:24:01,102 --> 00:24:05,182 Speaker 5: he was hearing voices, seeing demons, thought his home was haunted, 389 00:24:05,462 --> 00:24:11,662 Speaker 5: having abnormal paranormal experiences, expressed seeing this concern to his 390 00:24:11,862 --> 00:24:14,742 Speaker 5: parents that he wanted help, expressing his concern to the 391 00:24:14,862 --> 00:24:18,062 Speaker 5: one friend that he had via text message that he 392 00:24:18,182 --> 00:24:20,902 Speaker 5: wanted to go to a doctor, that he wanted help, 393 00:24:20,942 --> 00:24:23,822 Speaker 5: and those crist for help did go ignored. But he 394 00:24:24,022 --> 00:24:27,702 Speaker 5: was definitely somebody who was had an awareness that his 395 00:24:27,862 --> 00:24:30,302 Speaker 5: ideations were not normal. 396 00:24:31,222 --> 00:24:35,302 Speaker 1: But his parents, they knew he was struggling, but ignored it. 397 00:24:35,462 --> 00:24:35,822 Speaker 3: Do we know? 398 00:24:35,982 --> 00:24:38,702 Speaker 1: Why? Do we know what that relationship looked like between 399 00:24:38,742 --> 00:24:39,822 Speaker 1: the parents and son. 400 00:24:40,502 --> 00:24:44,622 Speaker 5: It looked negligent. That's essentially the crux of this is 401 00:24:44,742 --> 00:24:48,342 Speaker 5: that they were held culpable for gross negligence that contributed 402 00:24:48,462 --> 00:24:52,222 Speaker 5: to their studying enacting this terrible attack. 403 00:24:53,502 --> 00:24:55,222 Speaker 1: Well, one of the nine to one one calls that 404 00:24:55,422 --> 00:24:59,382 Speaker 1: comes through when the shooting starts is from the shooter's dad. 405 00:24:59,902 --> 00:25:01,662 Speaker 1: Can you talk us through that call and why that 406 00:25:01,782 --> 00:25:02,662 Speaker 1: was so significant? 407 00:25:03,702 --> 00:25:09,022 Speaker 7: James Crumbly and Jennifer Crumbley were actually at Oxford High 408 00:25:09,022 --> 00:25:14,062 Speaker 7: School just an hour before the shooting takes place. What 409 00:25:14,262 --> 00:25:16,542 Speaker 7: ended up happening was they were called to the school 410 00:25:16,662 --> 00:25:22,062 Speaker 7: because their son had been drawing guns, bullets, blood and 411 00:25:22,782 --> 00:25:26,902 Speaker 7: dead figures on his math assignment. And this is not 412 00:25:27,062 --> 00:25:31,142 Speaker 7: the first time something like this has happened. So Jennifer 413 00:25:31,182 --> 00:25:33,662 Speaker 7: and James show up to the school, they meet with 414 00:25:33,742 --> 00:25:39,142 Speaker 7: the counselor, and they bring in the shooter and they 415 00:25:39,262 --> 00:25:42,782 Speaker 7: all discuss what's going on with this worksheet. But by 416 00:25:42,822 --> 00:25:45,342 Speaker 7: the time the worksheet got to the office, some things 417 00:25:45,422 --> 00:25:48,102 Speaker 7: had been removed, some things had been crossed out, and 418 00:25:48,742 --> 00:25:50,782 Speaker 7: from what I understand, they were only there for like 419 00:25:50,902 --> 00:25:55,662 Speaker 7: less than twenty minutes I believe, And the counselor asks 420 00:25:55,782 --> 00:25:58,222 Speaker 7: them if they would like to bring the shooter home, 421 00:25:58,822 --> 00:26:01,542 Speaker 7: bring their son home, and they say they have to 422 00:26:01,582 --> 00:26:05,822 Speaker 7: go back to work, and at no point does anyone. 423 00:26:05,702 --> 00:26:07,422 Speaker 8: Check the shooter's backpack. 424 00:26:08,262 --> 00:26:10,982 Speaker 7: There's conflicting reports about whether the back was in the 425 00:26:11,062 --> 00:26:12,862 Speaker 7: room with them in the counselor's office, or whether it 426 00:26:12,942 --> 00:26:16,142 Speaker 7: was still in his classroom. But from the court testimony, 427 00:26:16,582 --> 00:26:18,782 Speaker 7: we hear that the dean of students goes to get 428 00:26:19,022 --> 00:26:22,182 Speaker 7: his backpack from the classroom and gives it back to 429 00:26:22,262 --> 00:26:26,982 Speaker 7: the shooter, remarking that it seems very heavy and never 430 00:26:27,102 --> 00:26:28,862 Speaker 7: even opens it up, and if you would have just 431 00:26:29,022 --> 00:26:31,742 Speaker 7: unzipped it, you would have seen the gun right away. 432 00:26:32,382 --> 00:26:37,022 Speaker 7: And so it's really mind boggling that this whole thing 433 00:26:37,142 --> 00:26:39,502 Speaker 7: goes down with the math assignment. 434 00:26:40,022 --> 00:26:40,862 Speaker 8: Jennifer had been. 435 00:26:40,822 --> 00:26:45,142 Speaker 7: Called days before about him looking at violent videos on 436 00:26:45,262 --> 00:26:48,702 Speaker 7: his phone, about looking up bullets on his phone, and 437 00:26:48,942 --> 00:26:53,942 Speaker 7: she tells her son, next time, don't get caught. So 438 00:26:54,142 --> 00:26:57,782 Speaker 7: there definitely seemed to be this vibe in this family 439 00:26:58,422 --> 00:27:02,582 Speaker 7: that they weren't taking his issues seriously. And the main 440 00:27:03,182 --> 00:27:06,742 Speaker 7: piece of evidence I believe here is that they bought 441 00:27:06,822 --> 00:27:10,742 Speaker 7: him that gun four days beforehand. Now, the shooter says 442 00:27:10,902 --> 00:27:14,022 Speaker 7: that this was his Christmas present. This is Black Friday, 443 00:27:14,142 --> 00:27:18,262 Speaker 7: he and his father go to ACME shooting Goods in Oxford, Michigan, 444 00:27:18,822 --> 00:27:22,062 Speaker 7: and he gives his father money to buy the gun 445 00:27:22,182 --> 00:27:22,582 Speaker 7: he wants. 446 00:27:22,622 --> 00:27:24,182 Speaker 8: It's a sig hour nine millimeter. 447 00:27:25,062 --> 00:27:27,622 Speaker 1: Can I pause you there? What does that mean for 448 00:27:28,382 --> 00:27:31,062 Speaker 1: a non gun person? Is that a big gun? 449 00:27:31,222 --> 00:27:33,062 Speaker 8: It's a handgun. It kind of looks like one a 450 00:27:33,102 --> 00:27:34,022 Speaker 8: cop would carry. 451 00:27:33,982 --> 00:27:37,022 Speaker 5: Which I'll say is a bit different from previous mass 452 00:27:37,022 --> 00:27:39,742 Speaker 5: shooting events here in the United States that have really 453 00:27:39,902 --> 00:27:43,742 Speaker 5: called automatic assault rifles into questions. So you see a 454 00:27:43,782 --> 00:27:46,862 Speaker 5: lot of AR fifteen's military weapons, etc. 455 00:27:47,462 --> 00:27:50,062 Speaker 1: This was not that and easy to hide in a 456 00:27:50,102 --> 00:27:51,902 Speaker 1: backpack if it's just a little handgun. 457 00:27:52,102 --> 00:27:53,622 Speaker 8: Yeah, exactly, exactly. 458 00:27:53,862 --> 00:27:56,542 Speaker 7: So the thing about the meeting in the office and 459 00:27:56,582 --> 00:27:59,502 Speaker 7: the counselor's office was that they asked their son, you know, 460 00:27:59,622 --> 00:28:02,142 Speaker 7: are you okay? Is there anything we need to be 461 00:28:02,222 --> 00:28:06,742 Speaker 7: worried about? And he says, no, everything's fine. He doesn't 462 00:28:07,222 --> 00:28:10,222 Speaker 7: indicate to them that he has this plan. He's recorded 463 00:28:10,262 --> 00:28:13,102 Speaker 7: this video the night before that says he's going to 464 00:28:13,182 --> 00:28:18,062 Speaker 7: shoot everyone he possibly can. And he definitely planned to 465 00:28:18,142 --> 00:28:20,462 Speaker 7: shoot a lot of people because he brought a lot 466 00:28:20,542 --> 00:28:24,782 Speaker 7: of magazines with him, so Jennifer and James leave the school. 467 00:28:25,102 --> 00:28:26,182 Speaker 8: They go back to their work. 468 00:28:26,382 --> 00:28:30,462 Speaker 7: James is a door dash driver, Jennifer works a cubicle style. 469 00:28:30,302 --> 00:28:32,622 Speaker 8: Job, and they go back to work. 470 00:28:32,862 --> 00:28:37,142 Speaker 7: Within the hour, Boomers starts swirling that there is something 471 00:28:37,262 --> 00:28:40,542 Speaker 7: going on at the high school. James Crumbly. One of 472 00:28:40,622 --> 00:28:43,902 Speaker 7: the first things that he does is call nine to 473 00:28:43,902 --> 00:28:48,182 Speaker 7: one one on his way back to his house to say, 474 00:28:49,102 --> 00:28:53,502 Speaker 7: I think my son took the gun. I think he's 475 00:28:53,622 --> 00:28:56,982 Speaker 7: the shooter. He's not worried that his son has been 476 00:28:57,142 --> 00:29:01,222 Speaker 7: shot or that he is unsafe. He's not calling to 477 00:29:01,382 --> 00:29:04,702 Speaker 7: report that there's a shooting. He's worried that his son 478 00:29:04,822 --> 00:29:07,302 Speaker 7: is the shooter. Now what does that tell you? They 479 00:29:07,382 --> 00:29:11,382 Speaker 7: bought this gun four days before, on November twenty, with 480 00:29:11,542 --> 00:29:14,902 Speaker 7: the shooter's money, and it was his choice. And you know, 481 00:29:15,102 --> 00:29:18,062 Speaker 7: it was just James and the son at the shooting thing, 482 00:29:18,142 --> 00:29:20,782 Speaker 7: but he went shooting with his mother the next day. 483 00:29:21,462 --> 00:29:24,582 Speaker 7: So she was a participant in this gun culture in 484 00:29:24,622 --> 00:29:27,982 Speaker 7: the family too. Now in her testimony, you'll hear that 485 00:29:28,382 --> 00:29:31,622 Speaker 7: she says that James was responsible for keeping this gun 486 00:29:32,262 --> 00:29:35,942 Speaker 7: locked up in the house. And what the police find 487 00:29:36,102 --> 00:29:39,902 Speaker 7: when they get to the Crumbly house is the gun 488 00:29:40,022 --> 00:29:43,702 Speaker 7: case open on the bed of the parents' bedroom and 489 00:29:43,822 --> 00:29:46,222 Speaker 7: the shooter had gotten it from their dresser. It was 490 00:29:46,342 --> 00:29:49,862 Speaker 7: not locked, it was not kept in a safe place whatsoever, 491 00:29:50,062 --> 00:29:52,222 Speaker 7: not kept away from their fifteen year old son. 492 00:29:52,942 --> 00:29:54,302 Speaker 8: He had easy access to it. 493 00:29:54,742 --> 00:29:58,502 Speaker 7: This is also a parent in many photos that are 494 00:29:58,582 --> 00:30:01,022 Speaker 7: posted to social media and like through text messages that 495 00:30:01,102 --> 00:30:03,422 Speaker 7: there are guns out in the background, like on the 496 00:30:03,502 --> 00:30:06,502 Speaker 7: dining room table in so many so it's easy to 497 00:30:06,582 --> 00:30:09,862 Speaker 7: prove that they weren't safe about locking up their guns 498 00:30:09,902 --> 00:30:13,702 Speaker 7: around their mind child. So James Crumbley's in a panic. 499 00:30:13,822 --> 00:30:15,822 Speaker 7: You know, it's hard to listen to that night when 500 00:30:15,822 --> 00:30:19,782 Speaker 7: one call, because you can tell he knows exactly what happened, 501 00:30:20,502 --> 00:30:25,262 Speaker 7: and he sounds terrified, like, oh crap, like what have 502 00:30:25,382 --> 00:30:26,942 Speaker 7: we done kind of thing. 503 00:30:27,182 --> 00:30:27,342 Speaker 4: You know. 504 00:30:27,462 --> 00:30:29,382 Speaker 7: I don't know if that's what he was thinking, but 505 00:30:30,022 --> 00:30:33,782 Speaker 7: he and Jennifer are texting each other, and Jennifer texts 506 00:30:33,822 --> 00:30:35,342 Speaker 7: her son, don't do it. 507 00:30:36,142 --> 00:30:37,142 Speaker 8: They know immediately. 508 00:30:37,622 --> 00:30:40,342 Speaker 7: And so this is why we think that this case 509 00:30:41,222 --> 00:30:45,582 Speaker 7: was deserving of a Deep Dive podcast, because yes, this 510 00:30:45,702 --> 00:30:49,782 Speaker 7: case is unprecedented for many many reasons, but it was 511 00:30:49,862 --> 00:30:52,942 Speaker 7: mostly that they were finally holding parents accountable for their 512 00:30:52,982 --> 00:30:56,022 Speaker 7: minor children's actions. Now, when you think about that, just 513 00:30:56,102 --> 00:30:58,662 Speaker 7: on the surface level, you're like, man, that's kind of 514 00:30:58,742 --> 00:31:00,702 Speaker 7: crazy that, like, my kid can go out and do 515 00:31:00,862 --> 00:31:04,102 Speaker 7: something and I can be held accountable. When you really 516 00:31:04,142 --> 00:31:06,422 Speaker 7: look at the details of this case, you really start 517 00:31:06,462 --> 00:31:09,102 Speaker 7: to see why it's actually not that much of a 518 00:31:09,182 --> 00:31:12,822 Speaker 7: precedence that being set because these parents were extremely negligent 519 00:31:13,222 --> 00:31:15,862 Speaker 7: when it came to their child. There were reports that 520 00:31:15,982 --> 00:31:18,902 Speaker 7: from the age of six years old, the child was 521 00:31:19,022 --> 00:31:23,422 Speaker 7: left at home alone without access to his parents. He 522 00:31:23,542 --> 00:31:26,862 Speaker 7: would be walking around the neighborhood knocking on people's doors 523 00:31:26,902 --> 00:31:29,462 Speaker 7: because he was scared. He was ten years old with 524 00:31:29,542 --> 00:31:31,902 Speaker 7: a cell phone, texting his mother asking her to come home, 525 00:31:31,982 --> 00:31:34,702 Speaker 7: and she wouldn't answer. He was being ignored. 526 00:31:47,902 --> 00:31:52,542 Speaker 1: How quickly were the parents arrested and actually brought into 527 00:31:52,582 --> 00:31:55,222 Speaker 1: the police station as suspects in this case. 528 00:31:56,062 --> 00:32:01,822 Speaker 5: On December third, three days after the shooting, With enough 529 00:32:01,982 --> 00:32:07,422 Speaker 5: evidence coming to the surface that the parents could very 530 00:32:07,462 --> 00:32:11,262 Speaker 5: well be held culpable in this case prosecuted, Karen McDonald 531 00:32:11,342 --> 00:32:16,902 Speaker 5: gives a press conference and announces that they're charging James 532 00:32:16,982 --> 00:32:22,022 Speaker 5: and Jennifer Crumbley with four counts of involuntary manslaughter warrants 533 00:32:22,062 --> 00:32:26,822 Speaker 5: are put out for their arrests and they're nowhere to 534 00:32:26,902 --> 00:32:29,902 Speaker 5: be found. Police show up at their house, they can't 535 00:32:30,022 --> 00:32:34,062 Speaker 5: be reached via cell phone. Still no signs of them 536 00:32:34,502 --> 00:32:39,302 Speaker 5: by nighttime. So at this point the Oakland County Police 537 00:32:40,102 --> 00:32:44,622 Speaker 5: have searched all of Oxford to no avail and they 538 00:32:44,742 --> 00:32:48,462 Speaker 5: call in a fugitive Apprehension team and the US Marshall 539 00:32:48,542 --> 00:32:52,782 Speaker 5: Service for backup. Around seven pm that night, the US 540 00:32:52,862 --> 00:32:57,422 Speaker 5: Marshall Service puts out a tweet with two kind of 541 00:32:57,622 --> 00:33:01,382 Speaker 5: classic looking wanted posters for both Jennifer and James Crumbley, 542 00:33:01,822 --> 00:33:03,862 Speaker 5: you know, with a reward up to ten thousand dollars. 543 00:33:04,462 --> 00:33:10,702 Speaker 5: This also becomes a huge national news story and kind 544 00:33:10,702 --> 00:33:14,222 Speaker 5: of Sheriff Mike Bouchard appears in the first segment of 545 00:33:14,342 --> 00:33:18,662 Speaker 5: You Know Every Box CNN, NBC and show of that night. 546 00:33:18,902 --> 00:33:19,022 Speaker 6: Right. 547 00:33:20,022 --> 00:33:26,222 Speaker 5: So, at this point, the attorneys of the Crumble's Mary 548 00:33:26,262 --> 00:33:31,022 Speaker 5: Olehman and Shannon Smith get in contact with law enforcement 549 00:33:31,062 --> 00:33:33,382 Speaker 5: and they assure them, hey, these two are just kind 550 00:33:33,382 --> 00:33:36,582 Speaker 5: of getting their affairs together. They felt really concerned for 551 00:33:36,662 --> 00:33:41,342 Speaker 5: their own safety. Even in Jennifer Crumpley's testimony, she says 552 00:33:41,622 --> 00:33:44,782 Speaker 5: that they had been receiving death threats, they felt unsafe 553 00:33:44,822 --> 00:33:48,222 Speaker 5: to stay in Oxford and says the reason they left 554 00:33:49,062 --> 00:33:51,022 Speaker 5: was because they just didn't feel safe. 555 00:33:52,062 --> 00:33:54,142 Speaker 6: However, what you find out they. 556 00:33:54,102 --> 00:33:57,222 Speaker 5: Were kind of doing during that time is they had 557 00:33:57,862 --> 00:34:01,902 Speaker 5: drained tons of money out of their bank accounts, including 558 00:34:01,982 --> 00:34:06,542 Speaker 5: their son's bank account. They get burner phones, turn off 559 00:34:06,582 --> 00:34:08,902 Speaker 5: their other cell phones, and. 560 00:34:10,622 --> 00:34:12,342 Speaker 6: Just completely made a run for it, right. 561 00:34:13,422 --> 00:34:18,582 Speaker 5: So finally they were spotted about forty five minutes south 562 00:34:18,662 --> 00:34:25,262 Speaker 5: of Oxford in a Detroit area warehouse building. Somebody who 563 00:34:25,382 --> 00:34:29,622 Speaker 5: lived in that warehouse building saw their car backed into 564 00:34:29,702 --> 00:34:32,342 Speaker 5: a parking lot right, so backed in so that license 565 00:34:32,382 --> 00:34:35,102 Speaker 5: plate would be obfuscated. So they knew what they were doing. 566 00:34:35,862 --> 00:34:40,302 Speaker 5: They send out a unit in Detroit. They are apprehended 567 00:34:40,502 --> 00:34:43,262 Speaker 5: by the Fugitive Response Team and a sworn of police 568 00:34:43,302 --> 00:34:47,462 Speaker 5: invade this warehouse area and the Crumplies are immediately taken 569 00:34:47,502 --> 00:34:48,542 Speaker 5: into custody. 570 00:34:49,342 --> 00:34:51,702 Speaker 6: So it's really this moment as well. 571 00:34:51,742 --> 00:34:55,702 Speaker 5: I mean, this was a huge moment in this case, 572 00:34:55,902 --> 00:34:59,622 Speaker 5: because people don't run unless they have something to hide, right, 573 00:35:00,422 --> 00:35:04,702 Speaker 5: and sadly, if you really think about it, and I'm 574 00:35:04,742 --> 00:35:06,782 Speaker 5: not too sure that the shooter knew this was going 575 00:35:06,862 --> 00:35:10,622 Speaker 5: on at the time, but this really also points to 576 00:35:11,662 --> 00:35:13,302 Speaker 5: more evidence of their gross negligence. 577 00:35:13,382 --> 00:35:18,022 Speaker 6: Right here is their son in jail. You know, it's been. 578 00:35:17,982 --> 00:35:24,662 Speaker 5: Charged with terrorism murder in the first degree, and they leave. 579 00:35:25,662 --> 00:35:27,622 Speaker 5: What message does that send to a kid who already 580 00:35:27,662 --> 00:35:30,102 Speaker 5: feels like and his goes on to express that he 581 00:35:30,182 --> 00:35:32,942 Speaker 5: felt like his parents didn't care about him. I'm not 582 00:35:33,022 --> 00:35:36,102 Speaker 5: saying this with sympathy for what he did, but if 583 00:35:36,142 --> 00:35:38,222 Speaker 5: we are all growing up with this idea that our 584 00:35:38,262 --> 00:35:42,062 Speaker 5: parents love us unconditionally, we hope that even when we 585 00:35:43,142 --> 00:35:46,462 Speaker 5: royally screw up, our parents are still there for us 586 00:35:47,382 --> 00:35:49,502 Speaker 5: and we always have that love to lean on. 587 00:35:50,582 --> 00:35:53,182 Speaker 6: And here they are just leaving. 588 00:35:54,302 --> 00:35:56,982 Speaker 5: So from there they are brought back to Open County 589 00:35:57,142 --> 00:36:06,582 Speaker 5: jail and they were initially denied bond because of their 590 00:36:07,102 --> 00:36:07,782 Speaker 5: flight risk. 591 00:36:07,982 --> 00:36:09,782 Speaker 1: Well that'd already tried to run, yes. 592 00:36:10,542 --> 00:36:13,302 Speaker 7: Then they were held on a million dollar bond five 593 00:36:13,422 --> 00:36:14,302 Speaker 7: hundred k ECH. 594 00:36:14,702 --> 00:36:18,382 Speaker 6: Yes, which they could not come up with the money for. 595 00:36:18,582 --> 00:36:22,862 Speaker 5: And we're not totally out of COVID yet, so the 596 00:36:23,862 --> 00:36:27,902 Speaker 5: legal systems are totally backed up. So James and Jennifer Crumbley, 597 00:36:27,942 --> 00:36:29,782 Speaker 5: I mean they sat in jail for two years before 598 00:36:29,822 --> 00:36:30,582 Speaker 5: they stood trial. 599 00:36:31,262 --> 00:36:33,582 Speaker 7: One thing I just wanted to say, And it kind 600 00:36:33,582 --> 00:36:35,422 Speaker 7: of goes with the theme of every time we talk 601 00:36:35,462 --> 00:36:38,222 Speaker 7: to each other, Jemma is the bad parenting. I am 602 00:36:38,302 --> 00:36:41,022 Speaker 7: not a mother, but I have to think that if 603 00:36:41,102 --> 00:36:43,782 Speaker 7: I had a teenager, I'd be really interested in what 604 00:36:43,862 --> 00:36:46,462 Speaker 7: they were doing on their phone and what they were 605 00:36:46,542 --> 00:36:49,422 Speaker 7: looking at, what they were texting, what they were writing 606 00:36:49,462 --> 00:36:52,902 Speaker 7: in their journals, and the fact that nobody was keeping 607 00:36:52,942 --> 00:36:55,382 Speaker 7: an eye on this kid who was begging for help. 608 00:36:55,502 --> 00:36:58,102 Speaker 7: He was begging for help, and you're not even slightly 609 00:36:58,182 --> 00:37:02,142 Speaker 7: curious about what he's telling other people, even about you, 610 00:37:02,622 --> 00:37:05,382 Speaker 7: like as his mother, You're not like thinking like I 611 00:37:05,462 --> 00:37:07,302 Speaker 7: wonder if he thinks I'm a terrible mother. 612 00:37:07,422 --> 00:37:08,862 Speaker 8: They don't even care. 613 00:37:09,502 --> 00:37:12,622 Speaker 1: Does that become the main conversation in America when this 614 00:37:12,982 --> 00:37:16,382 Speaker 1: side of the story breaks the parental responsibility side. 615 00:37:16,942 --> 00:37:17,142 Speaker 3: Yeah. 616 00:37:17,302 --> 00:37:19,542 Speaker 7: I think that this case gained a lot of attention 617 00:37:20,262 --> 00:37:23,942 Speaker 7: because of the gross negligence of these parents. But one 618 00:37:24,022 --> 00:37:26,502 Speaker 7: thing that we were looking at in our research was 619 00:37:27,102 --> 00:37:30,102 Speaker 7: the mother of Dylan Kleebold, one of the Columbine shooters 620 00:37:30,702 --> 00:37:34,142 Speaker 7: that was the first big school shooting in American history, 621 00:37:34,182 --> 00:37:37,782 Speaker 7: and that was in nineteen ninety nine. I believe the 622 00:37:37,902 --> 00:37:42,102 Speaker 7: mother of Dylan Kleebold wrote a book about this experience. Now, 623 00:37:42,182 --> 00:37:44,862 Speaker 7: she avoided the media for a few years after the shooting. 624 00:37:45,102 --> 00:37:48,222 Speaker 7: You know, her son died by suicide in that shooting. 625 00:37:48,782 --> 00:37:52,542 Speaker 7: So she finally came out of this situation going like, 626 00:37:53,102 --> 00:37:56,582 Speaker 7: I want to help other people understand like how we 627 00:37:56,782 --> 00:37:58,822 Speaker 7: ended up here. And one of the things that she 628 00:37:58,942 --> 00:38:01,582 Speaker 7: says is like we were a normal family. We were 629 00:38:01,702 --> 00:38:04,982 Speaker 7: a normal upper middle class family. He had everything that 630 00:38:05,062 --> 00:38:09,022 Speaker 7: he could have wanted, we were paying attention, and this 631 00:38:09,302 --> 00:38:10,222 Speaker 7: still happened. 632 00:38:10,582 --> 00:38:13,182 Speaker 8: And so it's not to say that there is a 633 00:38:13,302 --> 00:38:14,782 Speaker 8: perfect way to parent kids. 634 00:38:14,822 --> 00:38:17,182 Speaker 7: Of course, there's not a perfect way to parent teenagers, 635 00:38:17,342 --> 00:38:21,502 Speaker 7: especially teenagers that are going through mental anguish. But it's 636 00:38:21,582 --> 00:38:25,782 Speaker 7: really important that parents make an attempt to even figure 637 00:38:25,822 --> 00:38:29,542 Speaker 7: out what's the difference between normal teenage angst and actual 638 00:38:29,622 --> 00:38:33,022 Speaker 7: mental illness and actually root down to the cause of 639 00:38:33,102 --> 00:38:35,542 Speaker 7: this because, you know, like Cooper said, we were coming 640 00:38:35,582 --> 00:38:37,542 Speaker 7: out of COVID at this time in twenty twenty one, 641 00:38:37,662 --> 00:38:39,822 Speaker 7: they had just gone back to school and they were 642 00:38:39,862 --> 00:38:43,582 Speaker 7: still doing some days remote at Oxford. Some classes were 643 00:38:43,622 --> 00:38:46,862 Speaker 7: still remote. But this was November of twenty twenty one, 644 00:38:46,982 --> 00:38:48,742 Speaker 7: so they had just only been in school for about 645 00:38:48,782 --> 00:38:51,982 Speaker 7: three months after being out at the end of the 646 00:38:52,062 --> 00:38:55,942 Speaker 7: previous year, and when you're that age, that kind of 647 00:38:56,222 --> 00:38:59,822 Speaker 7: social isolation really takes a toll, and especially on someone 648 00:39:00,382 --> 00:39:03,982 Speaker 7: like the shooter who was already going through so much 649 00:39:04,262 --> 00:39:09,022 Speaker 7: mentally and only having one friend probably plays a huge 650 00:39:09,062 --> 00:39:10,902 Speaker 7: part in that, because he felt like he couldn't talk 651 00:39:10,982 --> 00:39:13,462 Speaker 7: to literally anyone, not even his own parents. 652 00:39:14,022 --> 00:39:16,822 Speaker 1: Well, some of the details that were talked about in 653 00:39:17,062 --> 00:39:23,462 Speaker 1: the shooter's proceedings showed the true premeditated nature of his offending. 654 00:39:24,302 --> 00:39:25,822 Speaker 1: Can you take us through some of those Some of 655 00:39:25,862 --> 00:39:29,542 Speaker 1: them are too horrible to actually repeat, but some of 656 00:39:29,622 --> 00:39:31,742 Speaker 1: that evidence that stood out to you. The fact that 657 00:39:31,822 --> 00:39:35,062 Speaker 1: he had decided not to kill himself ahead of time, 658 00:39:35,582 --> 00:39:38,502 Speaker 1: that he'd planned the shooting out in his journal, what 659 00:39:38,702 --> 00:39:41,982 Speaker 1: kind of shocked you from hearing and witnessing all of that. 660 00:39:43,022 --> 00:39:47,662 Speaker 5: One of the things that shocked me the most was 661 00:39:48,862 --> 00:39:51,542 Speaker 5: not that I would direct anyone to do this, but 662 00:39:52,022 --> 00:40:00,062 Speaker 5: comparing his plan, what he envisioned doing, specifically the execution 663 00:40:00,302 --> 00:40:06,422 Speaker 5: style he had envisioned killing people in side by side 664 00:40:06,582 --> 00:40:11,742 Speaker 5: with the autopsy reports of the murdered teenager, it is 665 00:40:12,982 --> 00:40:17,062 Speaker 5: eerily parallel. That to me is what stood out the most, 666 00:40:17,182 --> 00:40:20,182 Speaker 5: and it's also was a huge part of his Miller hearing, 667 00:40:20,262 --> 00:40:25,582 Speaker 5: which was his defense tried to argue that he was psychotic, 668 00:40:26,582 --> 00:40:34,942 Speaker 5: and the counter witness from the prosecution comes up and says, well, psychopaths. 669 00:40:34,422 --> 00:40:37,862 Speaker 6: They act impulsively. They do not plan this out. 670 00:40:38,142 --> 00:40:43,142 Speaker 5: There is not much premeditation here and precision and dedication 671 00:40:44,262 --> 00:40:50,982 Speaker 5: to a blueprint. And most people experiencing a level of 672 00:40:51,062 --> 00:40:57,262 Speaker 5: psychosis or psychopathy, they're just kind of spraying bullets. There's 673 00:40:57,342 --> 00:40:59,542 Speaker 5: no craft to what they're doing. And I know that 674 00:40:59,662 --> 00:41:05,902 Speaker 5: sounds crude, but he really was concerned with a certain 675 00:41:06,062 --> 00:41:07,182 Speaker 5: vision he had for this. 676 00:41:08,502 --> 00:41:14,142 Speaker 7: He also envisioned very strongly the repercussions the fallout of 677 00:41:14,702 --> 00:41:19,222 Speaker 7: this shooting. He wanted the families to be miserable. He 678 00:41:19,342 --> 00:41:22,822 Speaker 7: wanted to see their misery. He wanted to witness it 679 00:41:22,982 --> 00:41:25,542 Speaker 7: in the courtroom. He even says, when I go to 680 00:41:25,662 --> 00:41:27,942 Speaker 7: trial for this, because I know I will, I know 681 00:41:28,022 --> 00:41:29,422 Speaker 7: I'm going to go to prison for the rest of 682 00:41:29,502 --> 00:41:32,702 Speaker 7: my life. And he's okay with that, and he says, 683 00:41:32,782 --> 00:41:34,942 Speaker 7: I just want to see the looks on their faces 684 00:41:35,062 --> 00:41:39,982 Speaker 7: when I've shot their child in the head. And one 685 00:41:40,022 --> 00:41:43,302 Speaker 7: of the quotes from his manifesto, if we're going to 686 00:41:43,382 --> 00:41:45,662 Speaker 7: call it that is. I have the chance to teach 687 00:41:45,742 --> 00:41:48,142 Speaker 7: the world to become a better place, and I have 688 00:41:48,302 --> 00:41:51,342 Speaker 7: to take that chance. I've missed many opportunities in my life. 689 00:41:51,702 --> 00:41:53,942 Speaker 7: I'm not missing this one. I'm going to try to 690 00:41:53,982 --> 00:41:55,942 Speaker 7: flee the school for as long as I can until 691 00:41:55,942 --> 00:41:58,662 Speaker 7: I get caught. Just the thought of the silly people 692 00:41:58,742 --> 00:42:00,822 Speaker 7: who saved their whole life to go to college and 693 00:42:00,902 --> 00:42:04,102 Speaker 7: have a great career, a family, grow old, die happily. 694 00:42:04,542 --> 00:42:06,382 Speaker 7: They don't know that in less than a day they're 695 00:42:06,462 --> 00:42:09,262 Speaker 7: going to die. Their lives will be changed forever. I 696 00:42:09,422 --> 00:42:12,182 Speaker 7: understand the constantquence, and says I understand that I could 697 00:42:12,222 --> 00:42:14,262 Speaker 7: go to prison for this, and I really say goodbye 698 00:42:14,422 --> 00:42:17,142 Speaker 7: to everything. I'm sorry for manipulating you. 699 00:42:17,262 --> 00:42:17,862 Speaker 8: Mom and dad. 700 00:42:17,942 --> 00:42:19,622 Speaker 7: You have trust in me, and make sure that you 701 00:42:20,262 --> 00:42:22,782 Speaker 7: have trusted me, and I just owned you. And you 702 00:42:22,822 --> 00:42:25,422 Speaker 7: should know that it's for a cause. I'm ruining my life, 703 00:42:25,542 --> 00:42:28,622 Speaker 7: not yours. And then he goes on to film another 704 00:42:28,702 --> 00:42:31,742 Speaker 7: video just after this. It says, like, fuck, that previous 705 00:42:31,822 --> 00:42:34,022 Speaker 7: video I took that was bullshit. I'm going to have 706 00:42:34,142 --> 00:42:36,142 Speaker 7: so much fun tomorrow. I have a goal and it's 707 00:42:36,182 --> 00:42:36,902 Speaker 7: to kill everyone. 708 00:42:37,542 --> 00:42:41,582 Speaker 1: Thankfully, he received the harshest possible sentence and was given 709 00:42:41,662 --> 00:42:45,222 Speaker 1: life with that parole in December twenty twenty three. What 710 00:42:45,302 --> 00:42:47,862 Speaker 1: happened to the parents because that trial, well, they had 711 00:42:47,942 --> 00:42:50,382 Speaker 1: trials only recently wrapped up. 712 00:42:50,462 --> 00:42:56,222 Speaker 7: Really Yeah, So Jennifer Crumbly went to trial first in 713 00:42:56,742 --> 00:42:59,982 Speaker 7: February twenty twenty four, and this is after a lot 714 00:43:00,182 --> 00:43:05,862 Speaker 7: of legal hearings and motions to decide whether she and 715 00:43:05,982 --> 00:43:09,342 Speaker 7: her husband James would be tried together or separately. They 716 00:43:09,422 --> 00:43:12,422 Speaker 7: have the same defense team, they're from the same law office, 717 00:43:12,542 --> 00:43:16,662 Speaker 7: and so there's definitely like questionable things going on there. 718 00:43:16,822 --> 00:43:19,822 Speaker 7: But ultimately what happens is they are tried separately, and 719 00:43:19,942 --> 00:43:23,862 Speaker 7: it's because basically, based on the evidence that they were presenting, 720 00:43:24,302 --> 00:43:28,902 Speaker 7: there was different levels of culpability according to their lawyers, 721 00:43:28,942 --> 00:43:31,742 Speaker 7: and so they wanted each person to have their fairest 722 00:43:31,862 --> 00:43:36,422 Speaker 7: chance at a trial. And at Jennifer's trial, the school 723 00:43:36,502 --> 00:43:41,822 Speaker 7: counselor speaks and Dino students speaks. They tell all the 724 00:43:41,902 --> 00:43:44,622 Speaker 7: stories that we've told you about today about the meeting 725 00:43:44,742 --> 00:43:50,022 Speaker 7: earlier in that school. The ATF agent who reviewed Facebook 726 00:43:50,062 --> 00:43:54,702 Speaker 7: messages between James and Jennifer says that they debated whether 727 00:43:54,822 --> 00:43:57,542 Speaker 7: to buy this gun for their son. He walked the 728 00:43:57,582 --> 00:44:00,382 Speaker 7: court through video he discovered of the sun using guns 729 00:44:00,422 --> 00:44:02,662 Speaker 7: at the shooting range with his parents, as we mentioned before, 730 00:44:03,302 --> 00:44:07,542 Speaker 7: and the most damning evidence was a video the shooter 731 00:44:07,622 --> 00:44:10,542 Speaker 7: had sent his friend that made it undeniable that the 732 00:44:10,622 --> 00:44:13,422 Speaker 7: parents were not always in the habit of securing their firearms, 733 00:44:13,462 --> 00:44:15,982 Speaker 7: like we said earlier. And there's a gun on the 734 00:44:16,022 --> 00:44:20,462 Speaker 7: table in the background of a photo, and so these 735 00:44:20,502 --> 00:44:24,462 Speaker 7: are all pretty hard evidence in my opinion, of their 736 00:44:24,542 --> 00:44:28,302 Speaker 7: negligence leading up to this. But there's also testimony about 737 00:44:28,302 --> 00:44:32,262 Speaker 7: the shooter texting his parents about paranormal experiences seeing demons. 738 00:44:32,342 --> 00:44:34,662 Speaker 7: Demons comes up a lot, and this is something that 739 00:44:34,742 --> 00:44:39,142 Speaker 7: the Parkland shooter also talked about. And since he idolized 740 00:44:39,142 --> 00:44:43,582 Speaker 7: the Parkland shooter, I do wonder about the manipulation of 741 00:44:43,622 --> 00:44:47,422 Speaker 7: his parents and using this trigger word almost like to 742 00:44:48,102 --> 00:44:51,942 Speaker 7: perhaps get off on a mental illness plea of some sort. 743 00:44:52,542 --> 00:44:56,742 Speaker 7: And ultimately, at Jennifer's trial, she ends up taking the stand, 744 00:44:56,942 --> 00:45:00,582 Speaker 7: which a lot of people are like, oh, no, oh, no, 745 00:45:01,542 --> 00:45:04,422 Speaker 7: what is she going to say, because she's been openly 746 00:45:04,782 --> 00:45:07,142 Speaker 7: emotional during this trial, even though she's not supposed to 747 00:45:07,222 --> 00:45:10,022 Speaker 7: be they are asked to suppress their emotions, and she 748 00:45:10,222 --> 00:45:12,902 Speaker 7: was openly weeping at the beginning when they were showing 749 00:45:12,942 --> 00:45:14,822 Speaker 7: the footage of her son going through the school and 750 00:45:14,982 --> 00:45:19,702 Speaker 7: indiscriminately shooting people. But she takes the stand, and I'll 751 00:45:19,782 --> 00:45:23,102 Speaker 7: never forget the first time I heard this quote was 752 00:45:23,702 --> 00:45:27,302 Speaker 7: she was asked if she would have done anything differently, 753 00:45:28,222 --> 00:45:33,502 Speaker 7: and she said no. What she says no, And it's 754 00:45:33,622 --> 00:45:36,262 Speaker 7: just like you've dug your own grave here, you know, Like, 755 00:45:36,382 --> 00:45:38,182 Speaker 7: how can you say that in front of all of 756 00:45:38,262 --> 00:45:42,462 Speaker 7: these victims, families and these people who experience it themselves, 757 00:45:42,502 --> 00:45:46,182 Speaker 7: in front of the jury, And I mean, okay, she's 758 00:45:46,222 --> 00:45:48,942 Speaker 7: telling the truth on the sand, she wouldn't have changed anything. 759 00:45:49,422 --> 00:45:52,342 Speaker 7: But one of the things that just has really stuck 760 00:45:52,422 --> 00:45:54,422 Speaker 7: with me is, as she said, I wish he would 761 00:45:54,462 --> 00:45:59,222 Speaker 7: have killed us instead. And I've sat there and wondered 762 00:45:59,302 --> 00:46:01,182 Speaker 7: that many times, is that it seemed like the most 763 00:46:01,222 --> 00:46:03,942 Speaker 7: of the issues that this child had were with his parents. 764 00:46:04,542 --> 00:46:07,382 Speaker 7: The Sandy Hook shooter killed his mother before going to 765 00:46:07,462 --> 00:46:11,582 Speaker 7: the elementary school and killing sixteen children, And so it 766 00:46:11,662 --> 00:46:15,742 Speaker 7: does make you wonder what was the motive here, because really, 767 00:46:15,822 --> 00:46:17,782 Speaker 7: at the end of the day, no one's really clear 768 00:46:17,942 --> 00:46:20,622 Speaker 7: as to why the shooter did any of this, And 769 00:46:21,222 --> 00:46:23,902 Speaker 7: of course our podcast is about this bigger question of 770 00:46:24,582 --> 00:46:28,062 Speaker 7: paying for the sins of your child and how monumental 771 00:46:28,182 --> 00:46:30,902 Speaker 7: this case is when it comes to the parents being 772 00:46:30,942 --> 00:46:34,542 Speaker 7: held accountable or their actions and rearing their child poorly, 773 00:46:35,102 --> 00:46:36,302 Speaker 7: and it culminating in this. 774 00:46:36,422 --> 00:46:40,262 Speaker 1: Event both parents ended up receiving at least ten years 775 00:46:40,302 --> 00:46:43,582 Speaker 1: in prison. And lastly, I wanted to ask, do you 776 00:46:43,742 --> 00:46:47,182 Speaker 1: think that this case has changed the way that people 777 00:46:47,262 --> 00:46:50,982 Speaker 1: think about shootings or violent crimes committed by teens and children. 778 00:46:51,062 --> 00:46:55,182 Speaker 1: Has this set a precedent that we can look to 779 00:46:55,542 --> 00:46:56,222 Speaker 1: moving forward? 780 00:46:56,982 --> 00:47:00,662 Speaker 7: Personally, I hope that the precedent that's set is that 781 00:47:01,422 --> 00:47:05,382 Speaker 7: there's more investigation into the events that lead up to 782 00:47:05,502 --> 00:47:07,742 Speaker 7: any of these events. Now, really, my dream is that 783 00:47:07,822 --> 00:47:10,102 Speaker 7: this never happens again, But of course I know I 784 00:47:10,142 --> 00:47:12,382 Speaker 7: live in the United States. That's a pipe dream. And 785 00:47:13,422 --> 00:47:15,502 Speaker 7: I'm going to say, there's not a perfect parent in 786 00:47:15,622 --> 00:47:19,302 Speaker 7: this entire world. But there are parents that are completely 787 00:47:19,422 --> 00:47:22,862 Speaker 7: blind to what's happening in their children's mind or in 788 00:47:22,942 --> 00:47:25,702 Speaker 7: their personal lives, and they go on and do these things. 789 00:47:25,782 --> 00:47:29,182 Speaker 7: But I would bet my life that most of the 790 00:47:29,342 --> 00:47:33,502 Speaker 7: children who end up doing these mouse shooting events at schools, particularly, 791 00:47:34,142 --> 00:47:37,062 Speaker 7: their parents have some inkling that something is wrong with 792 00:47:37,142 --> 00:47:37,582 Speaker 7: their child. 793 00:47:42,822 --> 00:47:45,942 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Mama MEA podcast hosted and 794 00:47:46,022 --> 00:47:49,742 Speaker 1: produced by me Jemma Bath, with audio design by Scott Stronik. 795 00:47:50,262 --> 00:47:53,262 Speaker 1: Our executive producers on this episode, A gam Moylen and 796 00:47:53,422 --> 00:47:56,422 Speaker 1: Live Proud. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back 797 00:47:56,502 --> 00:47:58,942 Speaker 1: next week with another True Crime Conversation