WEBVTT - What Really Happened To Amanda Knox 0:00:10.365 --> 0:00:13.085 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.885 --> 0:00:16.845 Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.885 --> 0:00:18.485 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:18.685 --> 0:00:21.325 I'm under a lot of pressure because I'm still on trial. 0:00:21.885 --> 0:00:24.125 But I'm still a young person, and I'm making a 0:00:24.165 --> 0:00:27.885 lot of mistakes and they are big, like they're a 0:00:27.925 --> 0:00:30.685 big deal to make mistakes because I have to be perfect. 0:00:31.125 --> 0:00:34.045 I cannot afford to make mistakes when I am on 0:00:34.125 --> 0:00:35.125 trial for murder. 0:00:43.405 --> 0:00:46.645 For Mama Maya, you're listening to No Filter. I'm Cape 0:00:46.685 --> 0:00:51.245 lane Brook, twenty years old, living in Italy with other 0:00:51.285 --> 0:00:55.365 young people, learning Italian, falling in love with a local boy, 0:00:55.925 --> 0:00:58.485 working part time in a bar, and exploring the city 0:00:58.525 --> 0:01:01.365 and its art and culture and food with a fun 0:01:01.405 --> 0:01:04.085 and interesting group of other girls from all around the world. 0:01:04.805 --> 0:01:08.565 It sounds like heaven right, like the ultimate youthful dream, 0:01:09.685 --> 0:01:13.645 and that's exactly what it was for Amanda Knox until 0:01:13.685 --> 0:01:19.085 it turned into her worst nightmare. Amanda is thirty eight 0:01:19.205 --> 0:01:21.725 years old now, she's married to the love of her life, 0:01:22.485 --> 0:01:25.165 she's a mom of her own daughter now, and she's 0:01:25.285 --> 0:01:29.845 reflecting on the last eighteen years of her life because 0:01:30.045 --> 0:01:34.845 in two thousand and seven, Amanda Knox was wrongfully convicted 0:01:35.445 --> 0:01:39.485 of the brutal murder of her British roommate Meredith Kircher 0:01:40.245 --> 0:01:43.885 in a botched investigation that seent her to prison in 0:01:43.965 --> 0:01:48.285 Italy for nearly four years and kept her on trial 0:01:48.685 --> 0:01:53.605 for nearly eight years. Eventually, and after far too long, 0:01:53.925 --> 0:01:58.165 Meredith's real killer was caught and Amanda was fully exonerated. 0:01:59.005 --> 0:02:00.965 But that's not the end of Amanda's story, not by 0:02:01.005 --> 0:02:05.325 a long shot, because how do you even begin to 0:02:05.405 --> 0:02:10.885 reconstruct your identity, your sense of self after such a 0:02:10.965 --> 0:02:16.645 horrible thing defining you for so long. Amanda has a 0:02:16.685 --> 0:02:20.365 new book out called Free where she ruminates on that 0:02:20.605 --> 0:02:25.165 and so many other big, hard things. And what you're 0:02:25.205 --> 0:02:28.245 about to hear is one of the most generous conversations 0:02:28.285 --> 0:02:31.165 I've ever had with someone who's had so much of 0:02:31.205 --> 0:02:36.845 her story told for her about her, but not anymore. 0:02:37.565 --> 0:02:44.525 Here's Amanda Knox in her own words, Amanda Knox, Welcome 0:02:44.645 --> 0:02:45.365 to no Filter. 0:02:45.725 --> 0:02:47.445 Hi, Keate, thank you for having me. 0:02:48.485 --> 0:02:52.445 You are as the world has come to know someone 0:02:52.485 --> 0:02:56.245 who really doesn't have much of a filter anyway. 0:02:56.725 --> 0:02:58.805 Is that true? Okay? 0:02:58.845 --> 0:03:03.325 Well, you know it's interesting because given the circumstances that 0:03:03.365 --> 0:03:04.765 you found yourself. 0:03:04.365 --> 0:03:07.605 In or maybe the world didn't have a filter for me. 0:03:08.205 --> 0:03:10.125 Maybe that was the problem. 0:03:10.165 --> 0:03:15.405 Interesting because also the circumstances that we're talking about, and 0:03:15.445 --> 0:03:20.645 i'd like to preface this conversation actually by acknowledging Meredith Kercher, 0:03:21.365 --> 0:03:24.685 who was murdered in Italy in two thousand and seven, 0:03:25.285 --> 0:03:27.125 not by you, that's right. 0:03:27.245 --> 0:03:30.685 By a person who is now under investigation for assaulting 0:03:30.725 --> 0:03:36.125 another young woman. So, yes, I studied abroad with a 0:03:36.205 --> 0:03:39.765 young woman named Meredith Kircher, and we were both there 0:03:39.845 --> 0:03:44.085 only for a few weeks before she came home one 0:03:44.165 --> 0:03:48.205 night and someone had broken into our home and he 0:03:48.365 --> 0:03:52.005 raped and murdered her, stabbing her many times, and then 0:03:52.205 --> 0:03:57.445 fled the country. And you know, as sad as and 0:03:57.565 --> 0:04:01.565 tragic as that that event was, I think one of 0:04:01.605 --> 0:04:03.685 the things that I've been shocked to realize is just 0:04:04.645 --> 0:04:08.485 how vulnerable young women are when they are abroad and traveling. 0:04:08.685 --> 0:04:11.125 And I never really thought about that when I made 0:04:11.165 --> 0:04:15.085 my decision to go study abroad. And I just feel like, 0:04:15.245 --> 0:04:18.245 of the two of us, I'm the lucky one because 0:04:18.285 --> 0:04:19.245 I got to go home. 0:04:20.205 --> 0:04:25.405 Yes, and and and given the circumstances of meritis murder, 0:04:25.445 --> 0:04:27.485 and it was in the house that you were sharing 0:04:27.525 --> 0:04:30.125 at the time. It could have been you. 0:04:30.365 --> 0:04:32.805 Yeah, and that does not escape me. 0:04:32.965 --> 0:04:35.925 I mean I talk about that in a chapter of 0:04:35.965 --> 0:04:38.485 my book Free, my Search for Meaining that's going to 0:04:38.485 --> 0:04:42.565 be coming out, where I talk about how she and 0:04:42.605 --> 0:04:45.205 I are Almost the way I think about her today 0:04:45.965 --> 0:04:48.325 is that we were two sides of the same coin, 0:04:48.685 --> 0:04:51.605 and fate just flipped the coin, and it just so 0:04:51.725 --> 0:04:54.405 happened that she she came home that night and not me. 0:04:55.045 --> 0:04:58.525 I had met, you know, a young boy five days earlier, 0:04:58.885 --> 0:05:02.685 and I was justo and I was just so enamored 0:05:02.685 --> 0:05:05.685 of this boy that I was spending every night with him, 0:05:06.045 --> 0:05:08.525 and so it just so happened that I didn't come 0:05:08.525 --> 0:05:09.045 home that night. 0:05:09.085 --> 0:05:11.045 But if Meredith and I hadn't gone. 0:05:10.805 --> 0:05:14.445 To that classical music concert at my school, I never 0:05:14.445 --> 0:05:16.005 would have run into him, and I never would have 0:05:16.045 --> 0:05:18.845 met him, and I would have come home, and who 0:05:18.845 --> 0:05:19.965 knows what it would have happened. 0:05:20.005 --> 0:05:24.485 You know what happened after Meredith's passing, though, And it's 0:05:24.245 --> 0:05:32.165 the knock on effect which has led you to us today. Yeah, 0:05:32.205 --> 0:05:35.445 and to the work that you're doing now in the world. 0:05:35.805 --> 0:05:39.005 And you speak in your book Free, which is such 0:05:39.005 --> 0:05:45.165 an extraordinary book about the knock on and how many 0:05:45.285 --> 0:05:49.365 victims there are. Obviously Meredith is a primary victim, but 0:05:49.405 --> 0:05:54.285 there's her family, her siblings, there's you, there's your family, 0:05:54.285 --> 0:05:55.325 there's your siblings. 0:05:55.405 --> 0:05:58.845 Rapelle his family, his siblings. Yes, and I mean I 0:05:58.845 --> 0:06:02.965 would also argue that, you know, Perusia itself was victimized 0:06:03.045 --> 0:06:06.165 because in a way it went from being this lovely 0:06:06.245 --> 0:06:09.605 town where you know, nothing of this this. 0:06:09.565 --> 0:06:11.525 Gravity was happening in this town. 0:06:11.605 --> 0:06:14.085 Yes, there was like some petty crime going on some 0:06:14.485 --> 0:06:16.725 it was a college town, so there were things like, 0:06:17.125 --> 0:06:20.605 you know, some thieving there. There was some drugs that 0:06:20.685 --> 0:06:23.925 was going around, but you weren't. You didn't expect to 0:06:24.005 --> 0:06:29.765 be murdered in Perusia, Italy, like this small college town. Really, 0:06:31.045 --> 0:06:33.165 I thought it was one of the most beautiful places 0:06:33.325 --> 0:06:37.485 and happiest places I'd ever been up until that nightmare began. 0:06:38.045 --> 0:06:40.805 So Perusia I think got a bad rap because you know, 0:06:40.925 --> 0:06:43.205 out in the world it was depicted as who knows 0:06:43.205 --> 0:06:46.765 what this like drug den of debauchery, and that's not true. 0:06:47.285 --> 0:06:50.845 You know, like just because one young man who was 0:06:50.965 --> 0:06:54.605 unhinged and spiraling broke into our home and then things 0:06:54.765 --> 0:06:57.765 escalated doesn't mean that, you know, Perusia itself is at 0:06:57.765 --> 0:06:58.845 fault for what happened. 0:06:58.885 --> 0:07:03.525 You know, how did you find yourself going to Italy? 0:07:03.965 --> 0:07:05.925 So you had you know, you came from a middle 0:07:05.925 --> 0:07:12.005 class American family. Obviously was very important in your family 0:07:12.045 --> 0:07:15.805 because you were learning Japanese as a teenage, you're already 0:07:16.605 --> 0:07:20.885 but your fantasy. How was the fantasy born for you 0:07:20.965 --> 0:07:24.085 to go study in Italy? And then how did it 0:07:24.125 --> 0:07:24.605 come to be? 0:07:25.005 --> 0:07:28.525 Great question? So I talk about this. 0:07:28.485 --> 0:07:30.405 A little bit in the book about how my mom 0:07:31.405 --> 0:07:34.685 always thought that I was going to live an extraordinary life, 0:07:34.805 --> 0:07:38.245 and I didn't really know what that meant. I knew 0:07:38.285 --> 0:07:41.205 that from a young age, I was really interested in 0:07:41.845 --> 0:07:45.005 the bigger, broader world, right Like, my mom was born 0:07:45.085 --> 0:07:48.485 in Germany and my family was a divorced family. My 0:07:48.565 --> 0:07:50.925 dad had his house, my mom had her house, and 0:07:50.965 --> 0:07:54.085 there were very different cultures in those two houses. Right Like, 0:07:54.645 --> 0:07:56.925 at my dad's house it was Hamburger's and hot dogs, 0:07:57.085 --> 0:08:00.245 and at my mom's house it was Zvechkin Knuru and 0:08:00.885 --> 0:08:03.205 you know, reladin, and so we were having like even 0:08:03.245 --> 0:08:07.485 just food wise, the accents, my Alma's accents. So like 0:08:08.045 --> 0:08:10.285 I knew that there were other ways of being out 0:08:10.285 --> 0:08:12.205 there in the world, and all of those different ways 0:08:12.205 --> 0:08:14.085 of being were valid, they were just different. And so 0:08:14.165 --> 0:08:18.725 that made me intensely curious about other cultures and other lifestyles. 0:08:19.365 --> 0:08:22.405 And when I visited Rome with my family when I 0:08:22.445 --> 0:08:25.485 was fourteen, I just fell in love with the country. 0:08:26.005 --> 0:08:27.645 I was enamored of it. 0:08:27.765 --> 0:08:30.845 And so I decided that for my junior year abroad, 0:08:31.205 --> 0:08:34.445 I was going to apply to a study abroad program 0:08:34.485 --> 0:08:38.045 in Italy, and I specifically chose a small town because 0:08:38.085 --> 0:08:41.485 I was hoping that I would have more time spent 0:08:41.645 --> 0:08:44.925 with Italian people as opposed to like hived off in 0:08:45.005 --> 0:08:47.725 a group of American students who were in Rome and 0:08:47.845 --> 0:08:49.885 just doing all of their things together. I wanted more 0:08:49.925 --> 0:08:52.085 of a small town experience. 0:08:52.205 --> 0:08:53.125 You wanted immosion. 0:08:53.285 --> 0:08:55.885 I wanted immersion absolutely. I wanted to become fluent in 0:08:55.925 --> 0:08:58.205 the language. I was very you know, I had been 0:08:58.245 --> 0:09:01.085 to class, and I know, you know, I had learned 0:09:01.125 --> 0:09:05.725 words like scoyatolo, which is squirrel, or you know, I 0:09:05.725 --> 0:09:07.885 could tell you, I could ask you where the bathroom 0:09:08.085 --> 0:09:11.325 was or where the biblioteco was, but like I could, 0:09:11.565 --> 0:09:13.925 I didn't speak the language. And so I was really 0:09:13.965 --> 0:09:17.845 hoping that just by diving in, I would be immersed 0:09:18.125 --> 0:09:20.445 in both the language and the culture, and I would 0:09:20.485 --> 0:09:21.125 just absorb it. 0:09:21.205 --> 0:09:24.965 And you know, in a way I have, like I. 0:09:25.005 --> 0:09:30.125 Spent four years of my life in Italy in not 0:09:30.205 --> 0:09:34.045 the circumstances that I had hoped for, But certainly I 0:09:34.085 --> 0:09:36.325 did be careful what you wish for. 0:09:36.485 --> 0:09:37.565 I did get immersed. 0:09:39.285 --> 0:09:42.965 Well, yes, you did. And speaking of being careful what 0:09:43.005 --> 0:09:46.725 you wish for, your mum's you know prophecy to you 0:09:46.925 --> 0:09:49.165 that you will live in extraordinary life when you were 0:09:49.365 --> 0:09:53.925 just you know, you were a child, reminds me of 0:09:54.005 --> 0:09:59.725 the Chinese proverb may you live in interesting times? That 0:09:59.885 --> 0:10:00.885 is actually. 0:10:02.605 --> 0:10:02.805 Right? 0:10:02.885 --> 0:10:05.965 And what are you called to be in those interesting times? 0:10:06.085 --> 0:10:06.285 Right? 0:10:07.125 --> 0:10:10.405 Yes? And what do you learn about yourself in those 0:10:10.445 --> 0:10:11.565 interesting times? 0:10:11.885 --> 0:10:16.565 But you know, Seneca also said, I consider you unfortunate 0:10:16.685 --> 0:10:20.965 if you have never experienced misfortune, because you have never known, 0:10:21.005 --> 0:10:23.725 you've never been tested, not even you know who you 0:10:23.845 --> 0:10:26.445 really are and what you are capable of. And so 0:10:27.005 --> 0:10:31.925 that's a way of reframing again those like really difficult 0:10:32.045 --> 0:10:35.965 experiences that we have as something that's not just terrible 0:10:36.085 --> 0:10:37.485 but potentially valuable. 0:10:38.885 --> 0:10:41.885 And of course it's easier to take that that point 0:10:41.925 --> 0:10:44.805 of view when you're on this side of fairpoint. 0:10:44.965 --> 0:10:50.325 Fair point, yeah, yeah, But those four years in jail, 0:10:50.765 --> 0:10:54.525 did you think, Oh, I'm so lucky to be experiencing this, 0:10:54.805 --> 0:10:58.005 because this will this is my character that's been forged 0:10:58.045 --> 0:10:58.685 in the fire. 0:10:59.325 --> 0:11:01.365 I'm pretty sure that you didn't know. 0:11:01.605 --> 0:11:03.165 I mean, and you know I talk about this in 0:11:03.205 --> 0:11:06.245 the book. How I went through different stages, right, how 0:11:07.405 --> 0:11:11.445 they're the first two years really was in a kind 0:11:11.445 --> 0:11:14.405 of in denial of the fact that I was this 0:11:14.605 --> 0:11:16.485 was my life, right, I just I felt like I 0:11:16.525 --> 0:11:19.605 was that little kitten holding onto the branch, just hanging 0:11:19.605 --> 0:11:20.485 in there until. 0:11:20.285 --> 0:11:21.645 I could have my life back. 0:11:21.685 --> 0:11:25.845 Right. I was accidentally living someone else's life, and someday 0:11:26.085 --> 0:11:27.965 all of the adults in the room would figure out 0:11:28.045 --> 0:11:30.485 that I didn't belong here, I didn't belong in a 0:11:30.485 --> 0:11:32.925 prison cell, and they would let me go home. And 0:11:32.965 --> 0:11:37.285 then the conviction came and the twenty six year sentence came, 0:11:37.845 --> 0:11:42.805 and that little kitten dropped, and I realized that I 0:11:43.005 --> 0:11:47.005 was not living someone else's life by mistake. This was 0:11:47.085 --> 0:11:50.365 my life, and it was unfair and it was sad, 0:11:50.525 --> 0:11:54.725 but it was still mine to live and you know, 0:11:54.765 --> 0:11:57.085 I talk about this in this chapter, about having this 0:11:57.125 --> 0:12:02.725 epiphany and how it felt cold, But with that coldness 0:12:02.805 --> 0:12:06.525 came a kind of clarity, like, oh, I have been 0:12:06.685 --> 0:12:09.925 waiting to live two years of my life. I've been 0:12:10.005 --> 0:12:15.325 waiting to live because I haven't been unable to acknowledge 0:12:15.725 --> 0:12:18.885 and accept that the circumstances of my life are this. 0:12:19.125 --> 0:12:22.565 There is nothing other than this. There's no alternate reality 0:12:22.925 --> 0:12:25.485 that I should be living in, Like this is it 0:12:26.085 --> 0:12:28.565 and it's not fair and it's not fun and I 0:12:28.605 --> 0:12:31.765 shouldn't be here. But I can't focus on what I 0:12:31.885 --> 0:12:34.245 should like my life as it should be. 0:12:34.365 --> 0:12:36.125 I have to focus on my life as it is. 0:12:36.685 --> 0:12:40.125 And it was not easy, right, Like Weirdly, I think 0:12:40.165 --> 0:12:43.165 actually being trapped in a prison cell made it made 0:12:43.205 --> 0:12:46.565 it a much quicker moment of like shift in perspective 0:12:46.605 --> 0:12:48.965 for me than it might have been otherwise, because. 0:12:48.685 --> 0:12:50.965 When we're out here in the world, we all. 0:12:50.805 --> 0:12:53.765 Are trapped in circumstances that we didn't choose and that 0:12:53.885 --> 0:12:54.845 had come to that. 0:12:54.805 --> 0:12:55.845 Are external to us. 0:12:56.085 --> 0:12:59.365 But I feel like we can trick ourselves into thinking 0:12:59.685 --> 0:13:03.285 that we have control or that we get to decide, 0:13:03.365 --> 0:13:06.125 and that we are the ultimate protagonists of our own 0:13:06.165 --> 0:13:08.885 story and not just a pawn in someone else's, but 0:13:08.965 --> 0:13:11.725 like being stuck in a prison cell made it very 0:13:11.765 --> 0:13:14.725 clear to me that these were my circumstances. There was 0:13:14.765 --> 0:13:17.045 no other thing that I could and should be like 0:13:17.125 --> 0:13:19.725 here I was, So what was I going to do 0:13:20.005 --> 0:13:23.765 within the frame that I was given that was meaningful 0:13:23.805 --> 0:13:27.485 to me? And you know, like I couldn't answer that 0:13:27.565 --> 0:13:30.805 question in a grand scope of things. I couldn't answer 0:13:30.845 --> 0:13:33.125 that question in terms of twenty six years of my life, 0:13:33.885 --> 0:13:36.685 but I could ask myself, what can I do today 0:13:37.245 --> 0:13:38.485 that is worth living for? 0:13:39.445 --> 0:13:42.525 And that's it you speak in the book, And it 0:13:42.605 --> 0:13:47.205 was just a very interesting, simple example of what was 0:13:47.245 --> 0:13:50.925 going on with you that if you looked at your 0:13:50.965 --> 0:13:54.685 immediate surrounds, you were filled with despair. But if you 0:13:54.725 --> 0:13:57.965 could look a little bit out of the window and 0:13:58.045 --> 0:14:01.805 say a little chink of the landscape, it made the 0:14:01.885 --> 0:14:03.205 experience different for me. 0:14:03.325 --> 0:14:07.205 Yeah, it's that shift in perspective or you know, so 0:14:07.325 --> 0:14:10.085 there's that one sort of shift in perspective where like 0:14:10.165 --> 0:14:12.125 you're looking at a window, do you see the bars 0:14:12.205 --> 0:14:13.925 or do you see the bunny rabbits on the other 0:14:13.965 --> 0:14:16.325 side of the window that are like frolicking in the grass. 0:14:16.605 --> 0:14:19.325 You can choose which thing to focus on, but there's 0:14:19.365 --> 0:14:23.725 also the seeing very clearly what is in front of you, 0:14:23.845 --> 0:14:27.245 Like do you look at your prison cell and see 0:14:27.285 --> 0:14:29.685 all of this time that is being wasted, or do 0:14:29.725 --> 0:14:31.805 you see all of this time that you can be 0:14:31.885 --> 0:14:34.565 doing something in that actually matters to you? 0:14:34.805 --> 0:14:36.245 And so I've found. 0:14:35.965 --> 0:14:39.285 Little things, little humble things that mattered to me that 0:14:40.045 --> 0:14:43.525 made again a day worth living for, or even an 0:14:43.565 --> 0:14:47.565 hour worth living for. Was writing a letter to my mom, 0:14:48.005 --> 0:14:49.965 out doing the number of sit ups that I could 0:14:50.005 --> 0:14:54.125 do the day before, reading a book, getting more fluent 0:14:54.165 --> 0:14:54.805 in Italian. 0:14:55.245 --> 0:14:57.405 All of those things matter to me. 0:14:57.965 --> 0:14:59.885 Making a call, making a coffee in. 0:14:59.845 --> 0:15:02.325 Your cell, or you know, I talk about the book 0:15:02.405 --> 0:15:04.605 or in the book about this concept of ekey guy, 0:15:05.165 --> 0:15:09.205 which is the intersection between what you are good at, 0:15:09.485 --> 0:15:11.645 you like to do, what the world needs, and what 0:15:11.685 --> 0:15:14.725 you can get paid for this like purpose that you have. 0:15:15.325 --> 0:15:18.965 And I came to Italy because I loved the Italian language, 0:15:19.005 --> 0:15:22.205 I loved the Italian people. I had this idea in 0:15:22.245 --> 0:15:24.845 my mind that I would be a translator and I 0:15:24.845 --> 0:15:27.805 would be a bridge between people who could not understand 0:15:27.845 --> 0:15:30.565 each other, and all of a sudden, again, careful what 0:15:30.605 --> 0:15:31.205 you wish for. 0:15:31.605 --> 0:15:33.725 I found myself immersed. 0:15:33.285 --> 0:15:35.645 In a world in the prison of people who were 0:15:35.685 --> 0:15:39.005 either illiterate, so Italian, but illiterate, so they couldn't read 0:15:39.085 --> 0:15:41.405 their letters, they couldn't read their court documents. 0:15:41.445 --> 0:15:42.205 They needed help. 0:15:42.805 --> 0:15:44.565 I could do that because a lot of them were 0:15:44.645 --> 0:15:45.565 foreign A lot of them. 0:15:45.445 --> 0:15:52.085 Are foreigners, Nigerians, Romani or they were from very very poor, 0:15:52.285 --> 0:15:55.925 poor Italian families. So people who like I did not 0:15:56.565 --> 0:15:58.765 realize that there were still, you know, people in the 0:15:58.805 --> 0:16:02.205 world who grew up never going to school because. 0:16:01.965 --> 0:16:03.285 They were just that poor. 0:16:03.885 --> 0:16:06.805 And so I was meeting this, I was coming face 0:16:06.845 --> 0:16:09.885 to face with those realities in prison, realizing that I 0:16:09.965 --> 0:16:11.885 was one of the few people in here who could 0:16:11.925 --> 0:16:13.885 read and write, and eventually who could read and write 0:16:13.925 --> 0:16:17.005 in both English and Italian. And so I became a 0:16:17.365 --> 0:16:22.245 very very valuable asset in the prison environment. And we 0:16:22.525 --> 0:16:25.005 again you know that, careful what you wish for. I 0:16:25.085 --> 0:16:27.965 became a translator. I wasn't paid, well, I guess I 0:16:28.005 --> 0:16:29.605 was paid for it in the sense that like I 0:16:29.685 --> 0:16:33.205 went from I got respect, you know, like that was. 0:16:33.085 --> 0:16:34.005 My prison hustle. 0:16:34.405 --> 0:16:36.885 You know, I talk about that which is, which is 0:16:36.925 --> 0:16:40.965 a valuable currency in prison. Exactly before this and before 0:16:41.005 --> 0:16:46.005 your epiphany, and before you're deciding to live the life 0:16:46.045 --> 0:16:49.365 that you were living rather than you know, dream yourself 0:16:49.365 --> 0:16:51.525 into a fantasy when none of this had ever happened. 0:16:52.645 --> 0:16:54.885 Tell me how you came to be living in the 0:16:55.005 --> 0:16:58.445 house with Meredith, who was also a student, and with 0:16:58.565 --> 0:17:01.125 two other Italians? Yes, how do you? How do you 0:17:01.165 --> 0:17:03.805 go to Italy and then find yourself in a share house? 0:17:03.885 --> 0:17:06.765 And what were your days like then? Oh? 0:17:06.805 --> 0:17:10.845 I mean I went and visit Perusia with my sister. 0:17:11.325 --> 0:17:13.765 We came down from Germany. We were staying with our 0:17:13.765 --> 0:17:16.205 family in Germany. We came down on a train just 0:17:16.245 --> 0:17:18.645 to check it out, poke around. I went and visited 0:17:18.685 --> 0:17:22.605 my university and I saw a flyer up for a 0:17:22.805 --> 0:17:25.085 room for rent that was at a little house that 0:17:25.205 --> 0:17:28.765 was right down the road. And I actually the girl 0:17:28.765 --> 0:17:31.565 who was posting that poster was right there putting it up, 0:17:31.605 --> 0:17:34.885 and I said, oh my gosh, hi, I'm looking for 0:17:34.965 --> 0:17:35.605 a room. 0:17:35.685 --> 0:17:37.365 You know, Can I check it out? 0:17:37.405 --> 0:17:40.085 And she said yeah, absolutely, And this was Lauda, one 0:17:40.125 --> 0:17:43.645 of the Italian roommates. So I followed her down the road. 0:17:44.205 --> 0:17:46.725 It was the first place that I saw. It was gorgeous, 0:17:46.805 --> 0:17:50.245 this little cottage that overlooked the valley that was just 0:17:50.405 --> 0:17:53.165 right around the corner from the university. So it seemed 0:17:53.285 --> 0:17:57.725 like an ideal situation. I had two Italian roommates. There 0:17:57.725 --> 0:17:59.565 was another room for rent. They said they were looking 0:17:59.645 --> 0:18:04.525 for another roommate, and so I signed up. I gave 0:18:04.565 --> 0:18:07.605 them my first deposit, and I went back to Germany 0:18:07.605 --> 0:18:10.125 with my sister, just like gather the rest of my 0:18:10.205 --> 0:18:13.805 things and say bye to my family, and went back 0:18:13.845 --> 0:18:15.925 down and moved in. And by the time I moved in, 0:18:16.045 --> 0:18:19.165 Meredith had also moved in. And that was that, you know, 0:18:19.365 --> 0:18:21.925 just a flyer at the university, like a lot of people. 0:18:23.765 --> 0:18:27.805 And Meredith was English yep, so she was your obviously. 0:18:27.405 --> 0:18:30.245 American, yeah, And we had a lot in common. She 0:18:30.365 --> 0:18:32.685 was just a year older than me. We were both 0:18:32.725 --> 0:18:37.165 studying abroad. We were both interested in journalism and writing. 0:18:38.405 --> 0:18:41.685 She read a lot of mystery novels, I remember, and 0:18:41.845 --> 0:18:46.085 she had also a number she had met a number 0:18:46.085 --> 0:18:48.365 of other British girls, so she had a little like 0:18:48.685 --> 0:18:51.805 British friend group that she hung out with, and then 0:18:51.845 --> 0:18:53.845 she also hung out with the friend group that we 0:18:53.925 --> 0:18:57.725 had constructed which was our house group. So me and 0:18:57.725 --> 0:19:00.725 Philomona and Lauda and Meredith we would go out to 0:19:00.765 --> 0:19:03.925 dinner or we would go out dancing, so we were 0:19:04.005 --> 0:19:05.805 like two different friend groups of hers. 0:19:06.245 --> 0:19:11.725 And what role did Patrick Lamumba's Bob in your social scene? 0:19:11.805 --> 0:19:15.925 Well, I met Patrick through Lauda. So I had suggested 0:19:15.925 --> 0:19:18.805 to Lauda that I was used to having a job. 0:19:18.845 --> 0:19:20.045 In fact, I had three. 0:19:19.845 --> 0:19:23.005 Part time jobs leading up to going to Italy, and 0:19:23.085 --> 0:19:25.765 so I told her, Hey, you know, I'm looking for 0:19:25.805 --> 0:19:28.325 a part time job while I'm there. Do you know anybody? 0:19:28.365 --> 0:19:31.045 And she said, well, yeah, I have a friend who 0:19:31.245 --> 0:19:33.925 works with at this guy's bar, so I'll put you 0:19:33.965 --> 0:19:37.205 in contact. And when I met Patrick, he said that 0:19:37.285 --> 0:19:40.245 he would love to have someone who could help put, 0:19:40.325 --> 0:19:43.005 you know, pass out flyers to other university students and 0:19:43.045 --> 0:19:46.725 then come and serve drinks at his bar. And I 0:19:46.725 --> 0:19:48.925 thought that was a good opportunity for me to meet 0:19:48.925 --> 0:19:52.445 people and practice the language. And it was very part time. 0:19:52.525 --> 0:19:55.365 I think I only worked like twice a week, so 0:19:55.445 --> 0:19:57.125 it was very very low key. 0:19:57.885 --> 0:20:00.925 But when we were talking earlier about the broad sweep 0:20:01.285 --> 0:20:05.365 yes of Meritith State and the people that it sweped 0:20:05.405 --> 0:20:07.645 up in that Patrick was one of those. 0:20:07.845 --> 0:20:08.445 Absolutely. 0:20:08.765 --> 0:20:13.445 He ended up also being falsely accused, yes, of Merediths murder. 0:20:13.925 --> 0:20:14.165 Yes. 0:20:14.485 --> 0:20:18.605 So in the early days of the investigation, the police 0:20:18.925 --> 0:20:25.365 made a number of false assumptions. They assumed that the 0:20:25.405 --> 0:20:28.845 break in into our home was staged. They did not 0:20:28.965 --> 0:20:32.125 believe that a burglar would have broken in through that 0:20:32.245 --> 0:20:35.965 window and the way that they did, so they automatically 0:20:36.005 --> 0:20:39.165 decided that no, this was not a break in. Someone 0:20:39.205 --> 0:20:41.365 in the house is involved with in the crime and 0:20:41.445 --> 0:20:45.045 is trying to cover it up. And of the people 0:20:45.365 --> 0:20:50.165 that they were that could potentially be that person, all 0:20:50.245 --> 0:20:52.965 of the boys who lived in the apartment downstairs from us, 0:20:53.005 --> 0:20:55.725 all of them had ironclad alibis. They were out of town. 0:20:56.245 --> 0:20:59.805 Lauda was out of town. Philomena was with her boyfriend. 0:20:59.885 --> 0:21:02.485 I was with my boyfriend. So Philamina and I were 0:21:02.605 --> 0:21:05.005 the two ones where we only had one person could 0:21:05.045 --> 0:21:06.605 identify us where we were. 0:21:07.605 --> 0:21:08.405 And at the same. 0:21:08.245 --> 0:21:11.405 Time that the police had one other lead. They located 0:21:11.605 --> 0:21:15.365 a what appeared to them to be the hair of 0:21:15.445 --> 0:21:19.685 an African person at the crime scene on Meredith's body, 0:21:19.765 --> 0:21:22.645 and so they said to themselves, Okay, we're someone in 0:21:22.685 --> 0:21:28.205 the house is involved in this. It's either Philamena or Amanda, 0:21:29.125 --> 0:21:31.845 and a black person is involved with this. 0:21:32.565 --> 0:21:34.285 So they had that in their mind. 0:21:34.445 --> 0:21:37.485 And then they looked at Philamena and me, and they 0:21:37.525 --> 0:21:41.325 noticed an important difference. Especially in the early stages of 0:21:41.405 --> 0:21:46.125 the of the discovery of the crime. Philamena had seen 0:21:46.365 --> 0:21:50.405 inside Meredith's room. She saw Meredith's body, she saw the 0:21:50.445 --> 0:21:53.365 crime scene, she saw the blood, she saw everything and 0:21:53.485 --> 0:21:57.685 was screaming and crying and losing her mind. I had not, 0:21:59.045 --> 0:22:03.205