1 00:00:10,365 --> 00:00:13,085 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,885 --> 00:00:16,845 Speaker 2: Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,885 --> 00:00:18,485 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:18,685 --> 00:00:21,325 Speaker 3: I'm under a lot of pressure because I'm still on trial. 5 00:00:21,885 --> 00:00:24,125 Speaker 3: But I'm still a young person, and I'm making a 6 00:00:24,165 --> 00:00:27,885 Speaker 3: lot of mistakes and they are big, like they're a 7 00:00:27,925 --> 00:00:30,685 Speaker 3: big deal to make mistakes because I have to be perfect. 8 00:00:31,125 --> 00:00:34,045 Speaker 3: I cannot afford to make mistakes when I am on 9 00:00:34,125 --> 00:00:35,125 Speaker 3: trial for murder. 10 00:00:43,405 --> 00:00:46,645 Speaker 2: For Mama Maya, you're listening to No Filter. I'm Cape 11 00:00:46,685 --> 00:00:51,245 Speaker 2: lane Brook, twenty years old, living in Italy with other 12 00:00:51,285 --> 00:00:55,365 Speaker 2: young people, learning Italian, falling in love with a local boy, 13 00:00:55,925 --> 00:00:58,485 Speaker 2: working part time in a bar, and exploring the city 14 00:00:58,525 --> 00:01:01,365 Speaker 2: and its art and culture and food with a fun 15 00:01:01,405 --> 00:01:04,085 Speaker 2: and interesting group of other girls from all around the world. 16 00:01:04,805 --> 00:01:08,565 Speaker 2: It sounds like heaven right, like the ultimate youthful dream, 17 00:01:09,685 --> 00:01:13,645 Speaker 2: and that's exactly what it was for Amanda Knox until 18 00:01:13,685 --> 00:01:19,085 Speaker 2: it turned into her worst nightmare. Amanda is thirty eight 19 00:01:19,205 --> 00:01:21,725 Speaker 2: years old now, she's married to the love of her life, 20 00:01:22,485 --> 00:01:25,165 Speaker 2: she's a mom of her own daughter now, and she's 21 00:01:25,285 --> 00:01:29,845 Speaker 2: reflecting on the last eighteen years of her life because 22 00:01:30,045 --> 00:01:34,845 Speaker 2: in two thousand and seven, Amanda Knox was wrongfully convicted 23 00:01:35,445 --> 00:01:39,485 Speaker 2: of the brutal murder of her British roommate Meredith Kircher 24 00:01:40,245 --> 00:01:43,885 Speaker 2: in a botched investigation that seent her to prison in 25 00:01:43,965 --> 00:01:48,285 Speaker 2: Italy for nearly four years and kept her on trial 26 00:01:48,685 --> 00:01:53,605 Speaker 2: for nearly eight years. Eventually, and after far too long, 27 00:01:53,925 --> 00:01:58,165 Speaker 2: Meredith's real killer was caught and Amanda was fully exonerated. 28 00:01:59,005 --> 00:02:00,965 Speaker 2: But that's not the end of Amanda's story, not by 29 00:02:01,005 --> 00:02:05,325 Speaker 2: a long shot, because how do you even begin to 30 00:02:05,405 --> 00:02:10,885 Speaker 2: reconstruct your identity, your sense of self after such a 31 00:02:10,965 --> 00:02:16,645 Speaker 2: horrible thing defining you for so long. Amanda has a 32 00:02:16,685 --> 00:02:20,365 Speaker 2: new book out called Free where she ruminates on that 33 00:02:20,605 --> 00:02:25,165 Speaker 2: and so many other big, hard things. And what you're 34 00:02:25,205 --> 00:02:28,245 Speaker 2: about to hear is one of the most generous conversations 35 00:02:28,285 --> 00:02:31,165 Speaker 2: I've ever had with someone who's had so much of 36 00:02:31,205 --> 00:02:36,845 Speaker 2: her story told for her about her, but not anymore. 37 00:02:37,565 --> 00:02:44,525 Speaker 2: Here's Amanda Knox in her own words, Amanda Knox, Welcome 38 00:02:44,645 --> 00:02:45,365 Speaker 2: to no Filter. 39 00:02:45,725 --> 00:02:47,445 Speaker 1: Hi, Keate, thank you for having me. 40 00:02:48,485 --> 00:02:52,445 Speaker 2: You are as the world has come to know someone 41 00:02:52,485 --> 00:02:56,245 Speaker 2: who really doesn't have much of a filter anyway. 42 00:02:56,725 --> 00:02:58,805 Speaker 1: Is that true? Okay? 43 00:02:58,845 --> 00:03:03,325 Speaker 2: Well, you know it's interesting because given the circumstances that 44 00:03:03,365 --> 00:03:04,765 Speaker 2: you found yourself. 45 00:03:04,365 --> 00:03:07,605 Speaker 3: In or maybe the world didn't have a filter for me. 46 00:03:08,205 --> 00:03:10,125 Speaker 3: Maybe that was the problem. 47 00:03:10,165 --> 00:03:15,405 Speaker 2: Interesting because also the circumstances that we're talking about, and 48 00:03:15,445 --> 00:03:20,645 Speaker 2: i'd like to preface this conversation actually by acknowledging Meredith Kercher, 49 00:03:21,365 --> 00:03:24,685 Speaker 2: who was murdered in Italy in two thousand and seven, 50 00:03:25,285 --> 00:03:27,125 Speaker 2: not by you, that's right. 51 00:03:27,245 --> 00:03:30,685 Speaker 3: By a person who is now under investigation for assaulting 52 00:03:30,725 --> 00:03:36,125 Speaker 3: another young woman. So, yes, I studied abroad with a 53 00:03:36,205 --> 00:03:39,765 Speaker 3: young woman named Meredith Kircher, and we were both there 54 00:03:39,845 --> 00:03:44,085 Speaker 3: only for a few weeks before she came home one 55 00:03:44,165 --> 00:03:48,205 Speaker 3: night and someone had broken into our home and he 56 00:03:48,365 --> 00:03:52,005 Speaker 3: raped and murdered her, stabbing her many times, and then 57 00:03:52,205 --> 00:03:57,445 Speaker 3: fled the country. And you know, as sad as and 58 00:03:57,565 --> 00:04:01,565 Speaker 3: tragic as that that event was, I think one of 59 00:04:01,605 --> 00:04:03,685 Speaker 3: the things that I've been shocked to realize is just 60 00:04:04,645 --> 00:04:08,485 Speaker 3: how vulnerable young women are when they are abroad and traveling. 61 00:04:08,685 --> 00:04:11,125 Speaker 3: And I never really thought about that when I made 62 00:04:11,165 --> 00:04:15,085 Speaker 3: my decision to go study abroad. And I just feel like, 63 00:04:15,245 --> 00:04:18,245 Speaker 3: of the two of us, I'm the lucky one because 64 00:04:18,285 --> 00:04:19,245 Speaker 3: I got to go home. 65 00:04:20,205 --> 00:04:25,405 Speaker 2: Yes, and and and given the circumstances of meritis murder, 66 00:04:25,445 --> 00:04:27,485 Speaker 2: and it was in the house that you were sharing 67 00:04:27,525 --> 00:04:30,125 Speaker 2: at the time. It could have been you. 68 00:04:30,365 --> 00:04:32,805 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that does not escape me. 69 00:04:32,965 --> 00:04:35,925 Speaker 3: I mean I talk about that in a chapter of 70 00:04:35,965 --> 00:04:38,485 Speaker 3: my book Free, my Search for Meaining that's going to 71 00:04:38,485 --> 00:04:42,565 Speaker 3: be coming out, where I talk about how she and 72 00:04:42,605 --> 00:04:45,205 Speaker 3: I are Almost the way I think about her today 73 00:04:45,965 --> 00:04:48,325 Speaker 3: is that we were two sides of the same coin, 74 00:04:48,685 --> 00:04:51,605 Speaker 3: and fate just flipped the coin, and it just so 75 00:04:51,725 --> 00:04:54,405 Speaker 3: happened that she she came home that night and not me. 76 00:04:55,045 --> 00:04:58,525 Speaker 3: I had met, you know, a young boy five days earlier, 77 00:04:58,885 --> 00:05:02,685 Speaker 3: and I was justo and I was just so enamored 78 00:05:02,685 --> 00:05:05,685 Speaker 3: of this boy that I was spending every night with him, 79 00:05:06,045 --> 00:05:08,525 Speaker 3: and so it just so happened that I didn't come 80 00:05:08,525 --> 00:05:09,045 Speaker 3: home that night. 81 00:05:09,085 --> 00:05:11,045 Speaker 1: But if Meredith and I hadn't gone. 82 00:05:10,805 --> 00:05:14,445 Speaker 3: To that classical music concert at my school, I never 83 00:05:14,445 --> 00:05:16,005 Speaker 3: would have run into him, and I never would have 84 00:05:16,045 --> 00:05:18,845 Speaker 3: met him, and I would have come home, and who 85 00:05:18,845 --> 00:05:19,965 Speaker 3: knows what it would have happened. 86 00:05:20,005 --> 00:05:24,485 Speaker 2: You know what happened after Meredith's passing, though, And it's 87 00:05:24,245 --> 00:05:32,165 Speaker 2: the knock on effect which has led you to us today. Yeah, 88 00:05:32,205 --> 00:05:35,445 Speaker 2: and to the work that you're doing now in the world. 89 00:05:35,805 --> 00:05:39,005 Speaker 2: And you speak in your book Free, which is such 90 00:05:39,005 --> 00:05:45,165 Speaker 2: an extraordinary book about the knock on and how many 91 00:05:45,285 --> 00:05:49,365 Speaker 2: victims there are. Obviously Meredith is a primary victim, but 92 00:05:49,405 --> 00:05:54,285 Speaker 2: there's her family, her siblings, there's you, there's your family, 93 00:05:54,285 --> 00:05:55,325 Speaker 2: there's your siblings. 94 00:05:55,405 --> 00:05:58,845 Speaker 3: Rapelle his family, his siblings. Yes, and I mean I 95 00:05:58,845 --> 00:06:02,965 Speaker 3: would also argue that, you know, Perusia itself was victimized 96 00:06:03,045 --> 00:06:06,165 Speaker 3: because in a way it went from being this lovely 97 00:06:06,245 --> 00:06:09,605 Speaker 3: town where you know, nothing of this this. 98 00:06:09,565 --> 00:06:11,525 Speaker 1: Gravity was happening in this town. 99 00:06:11,605 --> 00:06:14,085 Speaker 3: Yes, there was like some petty crime going on some 100 00:06:14,485 --> 00:06:16,725 Speaker 3: it was a college town, so there were things like, 101 00:06:17,125 --> 00:06:20,605 Speaker 3: you know, some thieving there. There was some drugs that 102 00:06:20,685 --> 00:06:23,925 Speaker 3: was going around, but you weren't. You didn't expect to 103 00:06:24,005 --> 00:06:29,765 Speaker 3: be murdered in Perusia, Italy, like this small college town. Really, 104 00:06:31,045 --> 00:06:33,165 Speaker 3: I thought it was one of the most beautiful places 105 00:06:33,325 --> 00:06:37,485 Speaker 3: and happiest places I'd ever been up until that nightmare began. 106 00:06:38,045 --> 00:06:40,805 Speaker 3: So Perusia I think got a bad rap because you know, 107 00:06:40,925 --> 00:06:43,205 Speaker 3: out in the world it was depicted as who knows 108 00:06:43,205 --> 00:06:46,765 Speaker 3: what this like drug den of debauchery, and that's not true. 109 00:06:47,285 --> 00:06:50,845 Speaker 3: You know, like just because one young man who was 110 00:06:50,965 --> 00:06:54,605 Speaker 3: unhinged and spiraling broke into our home and then things 111 00:06:54,765 --> 00:06:57,765 Speaker 3: escalated doesn't mean that, you know, Perusia itself is at 112 00:06:57,765 --> 00:06:58,845 Speaker 3: fault for what happened. 113 00:06:58,885 --> 00:07:03,525 Speaker 2: You know, how did you find yourself going to Italy? 114 00:07:03,965 --> 00:07:05,925 Speaker 2: So you had you know, you came from a middle 115 00:07:05,925 --> 00:07:12,005 Speaker 2: class American family. Obviously was very important in your family 116 00:07:12,045 --> 00:07:15,805 Speaker 2: because you were learning Japanese as a teenage, you're already 117 00:07:16,605 --> 00:07:20,885 Speaker 2: but your fantasy. How was the fantasy born for you 118 00:07:20,965 --> 00:07:24,085 Speaker 2: to go study in Italy? And then how did it 119 00:07:24,125 --> 00:07:24,605 Speaker 2: come to be? 120 00:07:25,005 --> 00:07:28,525 Speaker 1: Great question? So I talk about this. 121 00:07:28,485 --> 00:07:30,405 Speaker 3: A little bit in the book about how my mom 122 00:07:31,405 --> 00:07:34,685 Speaker 3: always thought that I was going to live an extraordinary life, 123 00:07:34,805 --> 00:07:38,245 Speaker 3: and I didn't really know what that meant. I knew 124 00:07:38,285 --> 00:07:41,205 Speaker 3: that from a young age, I was really interested in 125 00:07:41,845 --> 00:07:45,005 Speaker 3: the bigger, broader world, right Like, my mom was born 126 00:07:45,085 --> 00:07:48,485 Speaker 3: in Germany and my family was a divorced family. My 127 00:07:48,565 --> 00:07:50,925 Speaker 3: dad had his house, my mom had her house, and 128 00:07:50,965 --> 00:07:54,085 Speaker 3: there were very different cultures in those two houses. Right Like, 129 00:07:54,645 --> 00:07:56,925 Speaker 3: at my dad's house it was Hamburger's and hot dogs, 130 00:07:57,085 --> 00:08:00,245 Speaker 3: and at my mom's house it was Zvechkin Knuru and 131 00:08:00,885 --> 00:08:03,205 Speaker 3: you know, reladin, and so we were having like even 132 00:08:03,245 --> 00:08:07,485 Speaker 3: just food wise, the accents, my Alma's accents. So like 133 00:08:08,045 --> 00:08:10,285 Speaker 3: I knew that there were other ways of being out 134 00:08:10,285 --> 00:08:12,205 Speaker 3: there in the world, and all of those different ways 135 00:08:12,205 --> 00:08:14,085 Speaker 3: of being were valid, they were just different. And so 136 00:08:14,165 --> 00:08:18,725 Speaker 3: that made me intensely curious about other cultures and other lifestyles. 137 00:08:19,365 --> 00:08:22,405 Speaker 3: And when I visited Rome with my family when I 138 00:08:22,445 --> 00:08:25,485 Speaker 3: was fourteen, I just fell in love with the country. 139 00:08:26,005 --> 00:08:27,645 Speaker 1: I was enamored of it. 140 00:08:27,765 --> 00:08:30,845 Speaker 3: And so I decided that for my junior year abroad, 141 00:08:31,205 --> 00:08:34,445 Speaker 3: I was going to apply to a study abroad program 142 00:08:34,485 --> 00:08:38,045 Speaker 3: in Italy, and I specifically chose a small town because 143 00:08:38,085 --> 00:08:41,485 Speaker 3: I was hoping that I would have more time spent 144 00:08:41,645 --> 00:08:44,925 Speaker 3: with Italian people as opposed to like hived off in 145 00:08:45,005 --> 00:08:47,725 Speaker 3: a group of American students who were in Rome and 146 00:08:47,845 --> 00:08:49,885 Speaker 3: just doing all of their things together. I wanted more 147 00:08:49,925 --> 00:08:52,085 Speaker 3: of a small town experience. 148 00:08:52,205 --> 00:08:53,125 Speaker 2: You wanted immosion. 149 00:08:53,285 --> 00:08:55,885 Speaker 3: I wanted immersion absolutely. I wanted to become fluent in 150 00:08:55,925 --> 00:08:58,205 Speaker 3: the language. I was very you know, I had been 151 00:08:58,245 --> 00:09:01,085 Speaker 3: to class, and I know, you know, I had learned 152 00:09:01,125 --> 00:09:05,725 Speaker 3: words like scoyatolo, which is squirrel, or you know, I 153 00:09:05,725 --> 00:09:07,885 Speaker 3: could tell you, I could ask you where the bathroom 154 00:09:08,085 --> 00:09:11,325 Speaker 3: was or where the biblioteco was, but like I could, 155 00:09:11,565 --> 00:09:13,925 Speaker 3: I didn't speak the language. And so I was really 156 00:09:13,965 --> 00:09:17,845 Speaker 3: hoping that just by diving in, I would be immersed 157 00:09:18,125 --> 00:09:20,445 Speaker 3: in both the language and the culture, and I would 158 00:09:20,485 --> 00:09:21,125 Speaker 3: just absorb it. 159 00:09:21,205 --> 00:09:24,965 Speaker 1: And you know, in a way I have, like I. 160 00:09:25,005 --> 00:09:30,125 Speaker 3: Spent four years of my life in Italy in not 161 00:09:30,205 --> 00:09:34,045 Speaker 3: the circumstances that I had hoped for, But certainly I 162 00:09:34,085 --> 00:09:36,325 Speaker 3: did be careful what you wish for. 163 00:09:36,485 --> 00:09:37,565 Speaker 1: I did get immersed. 164 00:09:39,285 --> 00:09:42,965 Speaker 2: Well, yes, you did. And speaking of being careful what 165 00:09:43,005 --> 00:09:46,725 Speaker 2: you wish for, your mum's you know prophecy to you 166 00:09:46,925 --> 00:09:49,165 Speaker 2: that you will live in extraordinary life when you were 167 00:09:49,365 --> 00:09:53,925 Speaker 2: just you know, you were a child, reminds me of 168 00:09:54,005 --> 00:09:59,725 Speaker 2: the Chinese proverb may you live in interesting times? That 169 00:09:59,885 --> 00:10:00,885 Speaker 2: is actually. 170 00:10:02,605 --> 00:10:02,805 Speaker 3: Right? 171 00:10:02,885 --> 00:10:05,965 Speaker 1: And what are you called to be in those interesting times? 172 00:10:06,085 --> 00:10:06,285 Speaker 3: Right? 173 00:10:07,125 --> 00:10:10,405 Speaker 2: Yes? And what do you learn about yourself in those 174 00:10:10,445 --> 00:10:11,565 Speaker 2: interesting times? 175 00:10:11,885 --> 00:10:16,565 Speaker 3: But you know, Seneca also said, I consider you unfortunate 176 00:10:16,685 --> 00:10:20,965 Speaker 3: if you have never experienced misfortune, because you have never known, 177 00:10:21,005 --> 00:10:23,725 Speaker 3: you've never been tested, not even you know who you 178 00:10:23,845 --> 00:10:26,445 Speaker 3: really are and what you are capable of. And so 179 00:10:27,005 --> 00:10:31,925 Speaker 3: that's a way of reframing again those like really difficult 180 00:10:32,045 --> 00:10:35,965 Speaker 3: experiences that we have as something that's not just terrible 181 00:10:36,085 --> 00:10:37,485 Speaker 3: but potentially valuable. 182 00:10:38,885 --> 00:10:41,885 Speaker 2: And of course it's easier to take that that point 183 00:10:41,925 --> 00:10:44,805 Speaker 2: of view when you're on this side of fairpoint. 184 00:10:44,965 --> 00:10:50,325 Speaker 4: Fair point, yeah, yeah, But those four years in jail, 185 00:10:50,765 --> 00:10:54,525 Speaker 4: did you think, Oh, I'm so lucky to be experiencing this, 186 00:10:54,805 --> 00:10:58,005 Speaker 4: because this will this is my character that's been forged 187 00:10:58,045 --> 00:10:58,685 Speaker 4: in the fire. 188 00:10:59,325 --> 00:11:01,365 Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that you didn't know. 189 00:11:01,605 --> 00:11:03,165 Speaker 3: I mean, and you know I talk about this in 190 00:11:03,205 --> 00:11:06,245 Speaker 3: the book. How I went through different stages, right, how 191 00:11:07,405 --> 00:11:11,445 Speaker 3: they're the first two years really was in a kind 192 00:11:11,445 --> 00:11:14,405 Speaker 3: of in denial of the fact that I was this 193 00:11:14,605 --> 00:11:16,485 Speaker 3: was my life, right, I just I felt like I 194 00:11:16,525 --> 00:11:19,605 Speaker 3: was that little kitten holding onto the branch, just hanging 195 00:11:19,605 --> 00:11:20,485 Speaker 3: in there until. 196 00:11:20,285 --> 00:11:21,645 Speaker 1: I could have my life back. 197 00:11:21,685 --> 00:11:25,845 Speaker 3: Right. I was accidentally living someone else's life, and someday 198 00:11:26,085 --> 00:11:27,965 Speaker 3: all of the adults in the room would figure out 199 00:11:28,045 --> 00:11:30,485 Speaker 3: that I didn't belong here, I didn't belong in a 200 00:11:30,485 --> 00:11:32,925 Speaker 3: prison cell, and they would let me go home. And 201 00:11:32,965 --> 00:11:37,285 Speaker 3: then the conviction came and the twenty six year sentence came, 202 00:11:37,845 --> 00:11:42,805 Speaker 3: and that little kitten dropped, and I realized that I 203 00:11:43,005 --> 00:11:47,005 Speaker 3: was not living someone else's life by mistake. This was 204 00:11:47,085 --> 00:11:50,365 Speaker 3: my life, and it was unfair and it was sad, 205 00:11:50,525 --> 00:11:54,725 Speaker 3: but it was still mine to live and you know, 206 00:11:54,765 --> 00:11:57,085 Speaker 3: I talk about this in this chapter, about having this 207 00:11:57,125 --> 00:12:02,725 Speaker 3: epiphany and how it felt cold, But with that coldness 208 00:12:02,805 --> 00:12:06,525 Speaker 3: came a kind of clarity, like, oh, I have been 209 00:12:06,685 --> 00:12:09,925 Speaker 3: waiting to live two years of my life. I've been 210 00:12:10,005 --> 00:12:15,325 Speaker 3: waiting to live because I haven't been unable to acknowledge 211 00:12:15,725 --> 00:12:18,885 Speaker 3: and accept that the circumstances of my life are this. 212 00:12:19,125 --> 00:12:22,565 Speaker 3: There is nothing other than this. There's no alternate reality 213 00:12:22,925 --> 00:12:25,485 Speaker 3: that I should be living in, Like this is it 214 00:12:26,085 --> 00:12:28,565 Speaker 3: and it's not fair and it's not fun and I 215 00:12:28,605 --> 00:12:31,765 Speaker 3: shouldn't be here. But I can't focus on what I 216 00:12:31,885 --> 00:12:34,245 Speaker 3: should like my life as it should be. 217 00:12:34,365 --> 00:12:36,125 Speaker 1: I have to focus on my life as it is. 218 00:12:36,685 --> 00:12:40,125 Speaker 3: And it was not easy, right, Like Weirdly, I think 219 00:12:40,165 --> 00:12:43,165 Speaker 3: actually being trapped in a prison cell made it made 220 00:12:43,205 --> 00:12:46,565 Speaker 3: it a much quicker moment of like shift in perspective 221 00:12:46,605 --> 00:12:48,965 Speaker 3: for me than it might have been otherwise, because. 222 00:12:48,685 --> 00:12:50,965 Speaker 1: When we're out here in the world, we all. 223 00:12:50,805 --> 00:12:53,765 Speaker 3: Are trapped in circumstances that we didn't choose and that 224 00:12:53,885 --> 00:12:54,845 Speaker 3: had come to that. 225 00:12:54,805 --> 00:12:55,845 Speaker 1: Are external to us. 226 00:12:56,085 --> 00:12:59,365 Speaker 3: But I feel like we can trick ourselves into thinking 227 00:12:59,685 --> 00:13:03,285 Speaker 3: that we have control or that we get to decide, 228 00:13:03,365 --> 00:13:06,125 Speaker 3: and that we are the ultimate protagonists of our own 229 00:13:06,165 --> 00:13:08,885 Speaker 3: story and not just a pawn in someone else's, but 230 00:13:08,965 --> 00:13:11,725 Speaker 3: like being stuck in a prison cell made it very 231 00:13:11,765 --> 00:13:14,725 Speaker 3: clear to me that these were my circumstances. There was 232 00:13:14,765 --> 00:13:17,045 Speaker 3: no other thing that I could and should be like 233 00:13:17,125 --> 00:13:19,725 Speaker 3: here I was, So what was I going to do 234 00:13:20,005 --> 00:13:23,765 Speaker 3: within the frame that I was given that was meaningful 235 00:13:23,805 --> 00:13:27,485 Speaker 3: to me? And you know, like I couldn't answer that 236 00:13:27,565 --> 00:13:30,805 Speaker 3: question in a grand scope of things. I couldn't answer 237 00:13:30,845 --> 00:13:33,125 Speaker 3: that question in terms of twenty six years of my life, 238 00:13:33,885 --> 00:13:36,685 Speaker 3: but I could ask myself, what can I do today 239 00:13:37,245 --> 00:13:38,485 Speaker 3: that is worth living for? 240 00:13:39,445 --> 00:13:42,525 Speaker 2: And that's it you speak in the book, And it 241 00:13:42,605 --> 00:13:47,205 Speaker 2: was just a very interesting, simple example of what was 242 00:13:47,245 --> 00:13:50,925 Speaker 2: going on with you that if you looked at your 243 00:13:50,965 --> 00:13:54,685 Speaker 2: immediate surrounds, you were filled with despair. But if you 244 00:13:54,725 --> 00:13:57,965 Speaker 2: could look a little bit out of the window and 245 00:13:58,045 --> 00:14:01,805 Speaker 2: say a little chink of the landscape, it made the 246 00:14:01,885 --> 00:14:03,205 Speaker 2: experience different for me. 247 00:14:03,325 --> 00:14:07,205 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's that shift in perspective or you know, so 248 00:14:07,325 --> 00:14:10,085 Speaker 3: there's that one sort of shift in perspective where like 249 00:14:10,165 --> 00:14:12,125 Speaker 3: you're looking at a window, do you see the bars 250 00:14:12,205 --> 00:14:13,925 Speaker 3: or do you see the bunny rabbits on the other 251 00:14:13,965 --> 00:14:16,325 Speaker 3: side of the window that are like frolicking in the grass. 252 00:14:16,605 --> 00:14:19,325 Speaker 3: You can choose which thing to focus on, but there's 253 00:14:19,365 --> 00:14:23,725 Speaker 3: also the seeing very clearly what is in front of you, 254 00:14:23,845 --> 00:14:27,245 Speaker 3: Like do you look at your prison cell and see 255 00:14:27,285 --> 00:14:29,685 Speaker 3: all of this time that is being wasted, or do 256 00:14:29,725 --> 00:14:31,805 Speaker 3: you see all of this time that you can be 257 00:14:31,885 --> 00:14:34,565 Speaker 3: doing something in that actually matters to you? 258 00:14:34,805 --> 00:14:36,245 Speaker 1: And so I've found. 259 00:14:35,965 --> 00:14:39,285 Speaker 3: Little things, little humble things that mattered to me that 260 00:14:40,045 --> 00:14:43,525 Speaker 3: made again a day worth living for, or even an 261 00:14:43,565 --> 00:14:47,565 Speaker 3: hour worth living for. Was writing a letter to my mom, 262 00:14:48,005 --> 00:14:49,965 Speaker 3: out doing the number of sit ups that I could 263 00:14:50,005 --> 00:14:54,125 Speaker 3: do the day before, reading a book, getting more fluent 264 00:14:54,165 --> 00:14:54,805 Speaker 3: in Italian. 265 00:14:55,245 --> 00:14:57,405 Speaker 1: All of those things matter to me. 266 00:14:57,965 --> 00:14:59,885 Speaker 2: Making a call, making a coffee in. 267 00:14:59,845 --> 00:15:02,325 Speaker 3: Your cell, or you know, I talk about the book 268 00:15:02,405 --> 00:15:04,605 Speaker 3: or in the book about this concept of ekey guy, 269 00:15:05,165 --> 00:15:09,205 Speaker 3: which is the intersection between what you are good at, 270 00:15:09,485 --> 00:15:11,645 Speaker 3: you like to do, what the world needs, and what 271 00:15:11,685 --> 00:15:14,725 Speaker 3: you can get paid for this like purpose that you have. 272 00:15:15,325 --> 00:15:18,965 Speaker 3: And I came to Italy because I loved the Italian language, 273 00:15:19,005 --> 00:15:22,205 Speaker 3: I loved the Italian people. I had this idea in 274 00:15:22,245 --> 00:15:24,845 Speaker 3: my mind that I would be a translator and I 275 00:15:24,845 --> 00:15:27,805 Speaker 3: would be a bridge between people who could not understand 276 00:15:27,845 --> 00:15:30,565 Speaker 3: each other, and all of a sudden, again, careful what 277 00:15:30,605 --> 00:15:31,205 Speaker 3: you wish for. 278 00:15:31,605 --> 00:15:33,725 Speaker 1: I found myself immersed. 279 00:15:33,285 --> 00:15:35,645 Speaker 3: In a world in the prison of people who were 280 00:15:35,685 --> 00:15:39,005 Speaker 3: either illiterate, so Italian, but illiterate, so they couldn't read 281 00:15:39,085 --> 00:15:41,405 Speaker 3: their letters, they couldn't read their court documents. 282 00:15:41,445 --> 00:15:42,205 Speaker 1: They needed help. 283 00:15:42,805 --> 00:15:44,565 Speaker 2: I could do that because a lot of them were 284 00:15:44,645 --> 00:15:45,565 Speaker 2: foreign A lot of them. 285 00:15:45,445 --> 00:15:52,085 Speaker 3: Are foreigners, Nigerians, Romani or they were from very very poor, 286 00:15:52,285 --> 00:15:55,925 Speaker 3: poor Italian families. So people who like I did not 287 00:15:56,565 --> 00:15:58,765 Speaker 3: realize that there were still, you know, people in the 288 00:15:58,805 --> 00:16:02,205 Speaker 3: world who grew up never going to school because. 289 00:16:01,965 --> 00:16:03,285 Speaker 1: They were just that poor. 290 00:16:03,885 --> 00:16:06,805 Speaker 3: And so I was meeting this, I was coming face 291 00:16:06,845 --> 00:16:09,885 Speaker 3: to face with those realities in prison, realizing that I 292 00:16:09,965 --> 00:16:11,885 Speaker 3: was one of the few people in here who could 293 00:16:11,925 --> 00:16:13,885 Speaker 3: read and write, and eventually who could read and write 294 00:16:13,925 --> 00:16:17,005 Speaker 3: in both English and Italian. And so I became a 295 00:16:17,365 --> 00:16:22,245 Speaker 3: very very valuable asset in the prison environment. And we 296 00:16:22,525 --> 00:16:25,005 Speaker 3: again you know that, careful what you wish for. I 297 00:16:25,085 --> 00:16:27,965 Speaker 3: became a translator. I wasn't paid, well, I guess I 298 00:16:28,005 --> 00:16:29,605 Speaker 3: was paid for it in the sense that like I 299 00:16:29,685 --> 00:16:33,205 Speaker 3: went from I got respect, you know, like that was. 300 00:16:33,085 --> 00:16:34,005 Speaker 1: My prison hustle. 301 00:16:34,405 --> 00:16:36,885 Speaker 2: You know, I talk about that which is, which is 302 00:16:36,925 --> 00:16:40,965 Speaker 2: a valuable currency in prison. Exactly before this and before 303 00:16:41,005 --> 00:16:46,005 Speaker 2: your epiphany, and before you're deciding to live the life 304 00:16:46,045 --> 00:16:49,365 Speaker 2: that you were living rather than you know, dream yourself 305 00:16:49,365 --> 00:16:51,525 Speaker 2: into a fantasy when none of this had ever happened. 306 00:16:52,645 --> 00:16:54,885 Speaker 2: Tell me how you came to be living in the 307 00:16:55,005 --> 00:16:58,445 Speaker 2: house with Meredith, who was also a student, and with 308 00:16:58,565 --> 00:17:01,125 Speaker 2: two other Italians? Yes, how do you? How do you 309 00:17:01,165 --> 00:17:03,805 Speaker 2: go to Italy and then find yourself in a share house? 310 00:17:03,885 --> 00:17:06,765 Speaker 2: And what were your days like then? Oh? 311 00:17:06,805 --> 00:17:10,845 Speaker 3: I mean I went and visit Perusia with my sister. 312 00:17:11,325 --> 00:17:13,765 Speaker 3: We came down from Germany. We were staying with our 313 00:17:13,765 --> 00:17:16,205 Speaker 3: family in Germany. We came down on a train just 314 00:17:16,245 --> 00:17:18,645 Speaker 3: to check it out, poke around. I went and visited 315 00:17:18,685 --> 00:17:22,605 Speaker 3: my university and I saw a flyer up for a 316 00:17:22,805 --> 00:17:25,085 Speaker 3: room for rent that was at a little house that 317 00:17:25,205 --> 00:17:28,765 Speaker 3: was right down the road. And I actually the girl 318 00:17:28,765 --> 00:17:31,565 Speaker 3: who was posting that poster was right there putting it up, 319 00:17:31,605 --> 00:17:34,885 Speaker 3: and I said, oh my gosh, hi, I'm looking for 320 00:17:34,965 --> 00:17:35,605 Speaker 3: a room. 321 00:17:35,685 --> 00:17:37,365 Speaker 1: You know, Can I check it out? 322 00:17:37,405 --> 00:17:40,085 Speaker 3: And she said yeah, absolutely, And this was Lauda, one 323 00:17:40,125 --> 00:17:43,645 Speaker 3: of the Italian roommates. So I followed her down the road. 324 00:17:44,205 --> 00:17:46,725 Speaker 3: It was the first place that I saw. It was gorgeous, 325 00:17:46,805 --> 00:17:50,245 Speaker 3: this little cottage that overlooked the valley that was just 326 00:17:50,405 --> 00:17:53,165 Speaker 3: right around the corner from the university. So it seemed 327 00:17:53,285 --> 00:17:57,725 Speaker 3: like an ideal situation. I had two Italian roommates. There 328 00:17:57,725 --> 00:17:59,565 Speaker 3: was another room for rent. They said they were looking 329 00:17:59,645 --> 00:18:04,525 Speaker 3: for another roommate, and so I signed up. I gave 330 00:18:04,565 --> 00:18:07,605 Speaker 3: them my first deposit, and I went back to Germany 331 00:18:07,605 --> 00:18:10,125 Speaker 3: with my sister, just like gather the rest of my 332 00:18:10,205 --> 00:18:13,805 Speaker 3: things and say bye to my family, and went back 333 00:18:13,845 --> 00:18:15,925 Speaker 3: down and moved in. And by the time I moved in, 334 00:18:16,045 --> 00:18:19,165 Speaker 3: Meredith had also moved in. And that was that, you know, 335 00:18:19,365 --> 00:18:21,925 Speaker 3: just a flyer at the university, like a lot of people. 336 00:18:23,765 --> 00:18:27,805 Speaker 2: And Meredith was English yep, so she was your obviously. 337 00:18:27,405 --> 00:18:30,245 Speaker 3: American, yeah, And we had a lot in common. She 338 00:18:30,365 --> 00:18:32,685 Speaker 3: was just a year older than me. We were both 339 00:18:32,725 --> 00:18:37,165 Speaker 3: studying abroad. We were both interested in journalism and writing. 340 00:18:38,405 --> 00:18:41,685 Speaker 3: She read a lot of mystery novels, I remember, and 341 00:18:41,845 --> 00:18:46,085 Speaker 3: she had also a number she had met a number 342 00:18:46,085 --> 00:18:48,365 Speaker 3: of other British girls, so she had a little like 343 00:18:48,685 --> 00:18:51,805 Speaker 3: British friend group that she hung out with, and then 344 00:18:51,845 --> 00:18:53,845 Speaker 3: she also hung out with the friend group that we 345 00:18:53,925 --> 00:18:57,725 Speaker 3: had constructed which was our house group. So me and 346 00:18:57,725 --> 00:19:00,725 Speaker 3: Philomona and Lauda and Meredith we would go out to 347 00:19:00,765 --> 00:19:03,925 Speaker 3: dinner or we would go out dancing, so we were 348 00:19:04,005 --> 00:19:05,805 Speaker 3: like two different friend groups of hers. 349 00:19:06,245 --> 00:19:11,725 Speaker 2: And what role did Patrick Lamumba's Bob in your social scene? 350 00:19:11,805 --> 00:19:15,925 Speaker 3: Well, I met Patrick through Lauda. So I had suggested 351 00:19:15,925 --> 00:19:18,805 Speaker 3: to Lauda that I was used to having a job. 352 00:19:18,845 --> 00:19:20,045 Speaker 1: In fact, I had three. 353 00:19:19,845 --> 00:19:23,005 Speaker 3: Part time jobs leading up to going to Italy, and 354 00:19:23,085 --> 00:19:25,765 Speaker 3: so I told her, Hey, you know, I'm looking for 355 00:19:25,805 --> 00:19:28,325 Speaker 3: a part time job while I'm there. Do you know anybody? 356 00:19:28,365 --> 00:19:31,045 Speaker 3: And she said, well, yeah, I have a friend who 357 00:19:31,245 --> 00:19:33,925 Speaker 3: works with at this guy's bar, so I'll put you 358 00:19:33,965 --> 00:19:37,205 Speaker 3: in contact. And when I met Patrick, he said that 359 00:19:37,285 --> 00:19:40,245 Speaker 3: he would love to have someone who could help put, 360 00:19:40,325 --> 00:19:43,005 Speaker 3: you know, pass out flyers to other university students and 361 00:19:43,045 --> 00:19:46,725 Speaker 3: then come and serve drinks at his bar. And I 362 00:19:46,725 --> 00:19:48,925 Speaker 3: thought that was a good opportunity for me to meet 363 00:19:48,925 --> 00:19:52,445 Speaker 3: people and practice the language. And it was very part time. 364 00:19:52,525 --> 00:19:55,365 Speaker 3: I think I only worked like twice a week, so 365 00:19:55,445 --> 00:19:57,125 Speaker 3: it was very very low key. 366 00:19:57,885 --> 00:20:00,925 Speaker 2: But when we were talking earlier about the broad sweep 367 00:20:01,285 --> 00:20:05,365 Speaker 2: yes of Meritith State and the people that it sweped 368 00:20:05,405 --> 00:20:07,645 Speaker 2: up in that Patrick was one of those. 369 00:20:07,845 --> 00:20:08,445 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 370 00:20:08,765 --> 00:20:13,445 Speaker 2: He ended up also being falsely accused, yes, of Merediths murder. 371 00:20:13,925 --> 00:20:14,165 Speaker 1: Yes. 372 00:20:14,485 --> 00:20:18,605 Speaker 3: So in the early days of the investigation, the police 373 00:20:18,925 --> 00:20:25,365 Speaker 3: made a number of false assumptions. They assumed that the 374 00:20:25,405 --> 00:20:28,845 Speaker 3: break in into our home was staged. They did not 375 00:20:28,965 --> 00:20:32,125 Speaker 3: believe that a burglar would have broken in through that 376 00:20:32,245 --> 00:20:35,965 Speaker 3: window and the way that they did, so they automatically 377 00:20:36,005 --> 00:20:39,165 Speaker 3: decided that no, this was not a break in. Someone 378 00:20:39,205 --> 00:20:41,365 Speaker 3: in the house is involved with in the crime and 379 00:20:41,445 --> 00:20:45,045 Speaker 3: is trying to cover it up. And of the people 380 00:20:45,365 --> 00:20:50,165 Speaker 3: that they were that could potentially be that person, all 381 00:20:50,245 --> 00:20:52,965 Speaker 3: of the boys who lived in the apartment downstairs from us, 382 00:20:53,005 --> 00:20:55,725 Speaker 3: all of them had ironclad alibis. They were out of town. 383 00:20:56,245 --> 00:20:59,805 Speaker 3: Lauda was out of town. Philomena was with her boyfriend. 384 00:20:59,885 --> 00:21:02,485 Speaker 3: I was with my boyfriend. So Philamina and I were 385 00:21:02,605 --> 00:21:05,005 Speaker 3: the two ones where we only had one person could 386 00:21:05,045 --> 00:21:06,605 Speaker 3: identify us where we were. 387 00:21:07,605 --> 00:21:08,405 Speaker 1: And at the same. 388 00:21:08,245 --> 00:21:11,405 Speaker 3: Time that the police had one other lead. They located 389 00:21:11,605 --> 00:21:15,365 Speaker 3: a what appeared to them to be the hair of 390 00:21:15,445 --> 00:21:19,685 Speaker 3: an African person at the crime scene on Meredith's body, 391 00:21:19,765 --> 00:21:22,645 Speaker 3: and so they said to themselves, Okay, we're someone in 392 00:21:22,685 --> 00:21:28,205 Speaker 3: the house is involved in this. It's either Philamena or Amanda, 393 00:21:29,125 --> 00:21:31,845 Speaker 3: and a black person is involved with this. 394 00:21:32,565 --> 00:21:34,285 Speaker 1: So they had that in their mind. 395 00:21:34,445 --> 00:21:37,485 Speaker 3: And then they looked at Philamena and me, and they 396 00:21:37,525 --> 00:21:41,325 Speaker 3: noticed an important difference. Especially in the early stages of 397 00:21:41,405 --> 00:21:46,125 Speaker 3: the of the discovery of the crime. Philamena had seen 398 00:21:46,365 --> 00:21:50,405 Speaker 3: inside Meredith's room. She saw Meredith's body, she saw the 399 00:21:50,445 --> 00:21:53,365 Speaker 3: crime scene, she saw the blood, she saw everything and 400 00:21:53,485 --> 00:21:57,685 Speaker 3: was screaming and crying and losing her mind. I had not, 401 00:21:59,045 --> 00:22:03,205 Speaker 3: And there's this famous clip of me that has made 402 00:22:03,245 --> 00:22:05,245 Speaker 3: its way around the world. It's this clip of me 403 00:22:05,325 --> 00:22:08,045 Speaker 3: standing outside of the crime scene the day that it 404 00:22:08,085 --> 00:22:11,885 Speaker 3: was discovered. I'm standing there with Raphaela, looking just sort 405 00:22:11,925 --> 00:22:14,765 Speaker 3: of lost, and then he kisses me to like comfort me. 406 00:22:15,285 --> 00:22:18,365 Speaker 3: And that was, you know, replayed over and over in 407 00:22:18,405 --> 00:22:20,605 Speaker 3: slow motion, and people look at that and say, look, 408 00:22:20,605 --> 00:22:23,125 Speaker 3: she doesn't seem to even care that her roommate was murdered. 409 00:22:23,645 --> 00:22:26,325 Speaker 3: And I like to point out to people that, like, 410 00:22:26,405 --> 00:22:29,885 Speaker 3: I wasn't even sure what was going on in that moment, 411 00:22:30,005 --> 00:22:32,165 Speaker 3: because as soon as the door was kicked down and 412 00:22:32,205 --> 00:22:36,405 Speaker 3: Meredith's body was discovered, everyone started screaming in Italian and 413 00:22:36,445 --> 00:22:38,925 Speaker 3: I had no idea what they were saying. I could 414 00:22:39,005 --> 00:22:41,565 Speaker 3: only pick up little bits and pieces. I was trying 415 00:22:41,565 --> 00:22:44,725 Speaker 3: to piece everything together. I was talking to RAPHAELI going, 416 00:22:44,725 --> 00:22:46,605 Speaker 3: what did they see? Can you talk to somebody? 417 00:22:46,645 --> 00:22:48,725 Speaker 1: What is going on? Do they know it's Meridith? Is 418 00:22:48,765 --> 00:22:49,205 Speaker 1: it like? 419 00:22:49,805 --> 00:22:51,885 Speaker 3: And so there was a moment in there where I 420 00:22:51,925 --> 00:22:54,525 Speaker 3: was just sort of like in shock, trying to piece 421 00:22:54,605 --> 00:22:58,125 Speaker 3: everything together, and people look at that moment as evidence 422 00:22:58,165 --> 00:23:01,605 Speaker 3: of me like not caring, when really they'd understand the 423 00:23:01,645 --> 00:23:02,765 Speaker 3: circumstances of that. 424 00:23:03,165 --> 00:23:06,725 Speaker 2: Certainly the Italians were like, this is not how a 425 00:23:07,125 --> 00:23:11,725 Speaker 2: good Italian girl would behave these circumstances. 426 00:23:11,365 --> 00:23:15,325 Speaker 3: Right, And so I think they imposed some of their 427 00:23:15,725 --> 00:23:19,605 Speaker 3: prejudices onto me, and already they were sort of forming 428 00:23:19,645 --> 00:23:22,565 Speaker 3: this idea. And then when they discovered like they brought 429 00:23:22,565 --> 00:23:24,885 Speaker 3: me in for questioning many times over the course of 430 00:23:24,925 --> 00:23:29,245 Speaker 3: those days and that final interrogation, they were convinced that 431 00:23:29,285 --> 00:23:31,565 Speaker 3: it was me, like I was hiding something, I was 432 00:23:31,605 --> 00:23:34,165 Speaker 3: not telling the truth. So they brought in my boyfriend 433 00:23:34,525 --> 00:23:37,925 Speaker 3: who was my alibi, and tried to try to get 434 00:23:38,485 --> 00:23:41,405 Speaker 3: basically force him to withdraw my alibi and at the 435 00:23:41,405 --> 00:23:45,365 Speaker 3: same time try to force me to say something else. 436 00:23:45,445 --> 00:23:47,765 Speaker 3: To do anything else. 437 00:23:52,925 --> 00:23:57,205 Speaker 2: After this short break, Amanda recalls the moment she returned 438 00:23:57,245 --> 00:24:00,845 Speaker 2: to her share house and discovered that something was very, 439 00:24:01,565 --> 00:24:15,125 Speaker 2: very wrong ste with us. Now all of these I'm 440 00:24:15,165 --> 00:24:23,245 Speaker 2: trying to imagine how you process any of this, given 441 00:24:23,885 --> 00:24:28,485 Speaker 2: that you're so young, that you've come from your boyfriend's house, 442 00:24:30,205 --> 00:24:32,725 Speaker 2: you've come back to your place. Is this right for 443 00:24:32,805 --> 00:24:36,165 Speaker 2: a shower in the morning? Tell me what you found 444 00:24:36,165 --> 00:24:40,365 Speaker 2: at the at the apartment when you came back from 445 00:24:40,485 --> 00:24:43,645 Speaker 2: Raphaela's place, thinking that it was just another morning, and 446 00:24:43,685 --> 00:24:45,085 Speaker 2: I believe you were going to go off for a 447 00:24:45,085 --> 00:24:47,285 Speaker 2: weekend TiAl. He wanted to take you somewhere. 448 00:24:47,445 --> 00:24:50,245 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he was going to take me to So 449 00:24:50,325 --> 00:24:54,925 Speaker 3: it was a holiday weekend because Halloween and all Saints Day, 450 00:24:55,005 --> 00:24:57,565 Speaker 3: all of that, it was going to be. Yeah, it 451 00:24:57,605 --> 00:25:00,885 Speaker 3: was so November exactly thousand and seven, and so there 452 00:25:00,925 --> 00:25:02,725 Speaker 3: was no school. We were going to take the days 453 00:25:02,725 --> 00:25:05,805 Speaker 3: off and go and visit this beautiful neighboring town. And 454 00:25:05,845 --> 00:25:08,125 Speaker 3: that morning, my plan was simply to go back home, 455 00:25:08,285 --> 00:25:11,925 Speaker 3: get changed into something pretty for a romantic weekend, and 456 00:25:12,245 --> 00:25:14,805 Speaker 3: you know, take a shower, blow dry my hair, and 457 00:25:14,885 --> 00:25:17,445 Speaker 3: meet back up with him. And I came home and 458 00:25:17,485 --> 00:25:21,325 Speaker 3: found a number of strange things, like my door was open. 459 00:25:21,445 --> 00:25:25,245 Speaker 3: The front door to the house was open, and that 460 00:25:25,405 --> 00:25:29,005 Speaker 3: was odd. But at the same time, I thought to myself, well, 461 00:25:29,165 --> 00:25:31,885 Speaker 3: the lock is broken on the door. We all have 462 00:25:31,965 --> 00:25:33,485 Speaker 3: to lock it with the key just to make sure 463 00:25:33,485 --> 00:25:36,285 Speaker 3: it doesn't blow open with the wind. Maybe someone didn't 464 00:25:36,445 --> 00:25:38,885 Speaker 3: lock it and the wind blew it open. So I 465 00:25:38,925 --> 00:25:41,365 Speaker 3: walk into the house and I go, hello, is anyone here? 466 00:25:41,565 --> 00:25:45,605 Speaker 3: No one answers. I go, huh, close the door, go 467 00:25:45,645 --> 00:25:48,605 Speaker 3: into my room, get undressed, go into the bathroom to 468 00:25:48,605 --> 00:25:52,085 Speaker 3: take a shower, and while I'm brushing my teeth, I 469 00:25:52,165 --> 00:25:55,325 Speaker 3: noticed a few specs of blood in the sink and 470 00:25:55,365 --> 00:25:57,845 Speaker 3: I went huh. And at first I thought it was 471 00:25:58,005 --> 00:26:00,645 Speaker 3: from my ears because I recently had pierced my ears, 472 00:26:00,965 --> 00:26:02,525 Speaker 3: and I thought, oh my god, am I bleeding? But 473 00:26:02,565 --> 00:26:04,965 Speaker 3: I was like, no, that's dry blood. 474 00:26:05,725 --> 00:26:06,005 Speaker 1: Huh. 475 00:26:06,045 --> 00:26:08,525 Speaker 3: And then I thought, huh, Well, I mean we're girls. 476 00:26:08,645 --> 00:26:10,165 Speaker 3: Maybe someone's on their period. 477 00:26:10,205 --> 00:26:10,765 Speaker 1: Who knows. 478 00:26:11,325 --> 00:26:13,325 Speaker 3: So I take a shower, and as soon as they 479 00:26:13,325 --> 00:26:15,245 Speaker 3: get out of the shower, I noticed there's more blood 480 00:26:15,285 --> 00:26:20,125 Speaker 3: on the bath mat. And again I'm like, okay, weird. 481 00:26:20,325 --> 00:26:21,165 Speaker 1: But also. 482 00:26:22,485 --> 00:26:25,965 Speaker 3: That sort of rationalization is still happening. I'm not thinking, oh, 483 00:26:26,005 --> 00:26:29,325 Speaker 3: someone's been murdered. I'm just thinking, oh, weird, someone must 484 00:26:29,325 --> 00:26:30,605 Speaker 3: have maybe cut themselves. 485 00:26:30,645 --> 00:26:31,125 Speaker 1: I don't know. 486 00:26:31,685 --> 00:26:34,685 Speaker 3: And then I go into my room, I get changed, 487 00:26:34,725 --> 00:26:37,765 Speaker 3: I go into the separate bathroom. There's a different bathroom 488 00:26:37,765 --> 00:26:40,645 Speaker 3: that has the hair dryer. I start blowing drying my hair, 489 00:26:41,125 --> 00:26:44,125 Speaker 3: and I noticed that there is feces left in the toilet. 490 00:26:44,685 --> 00:26:49,405 Speaker 3: And then I immediately went, oh, no, something's off because 491 00:26:50,085 --> 00:26:53,085 Speaker 3: I could explain away these other things that I had 492 00:26:53,125 --> 00:26:55,405 Speaker 3: seen up to that point as like, oh, maybe they 493 00:26:55,445 --> 00:26:58,045 Speaker 3: just didn't lock the door. Oh you know, maybe someone 494 00:26:58,125 --> 00:27:01,885 Speaker 3: is having other period, but like none of my roommates 495 00:27:02,005 --> 00:27:06,525 Speaker 3: would have left feces in the toilet, And I immediately went. 496 00:27:07,045 --> 00:27:09,925 Speaker 1: Oh, no, someone's has someone been here? 497 00:27:10,125 --> 00:27:13,365 Speaker 3: And I got creeped out, and I immediately went back 498 00:27:13,405 --> 00:27:17,445 Speaker 3: to Raphaeley's apartment and started calling my roommates asking like, hey, 499 00:27:18,525 --> 00:27:19,285 Speaker 3: did something happen? 500 00:27:19,405 --> 00:27:19,765 Speaker 1: What's good? 501 00:27:19,845 --> 00:27:23,205 Speaker 3: Like not quite sure what to think of what I 502 00:27:23,205 --> 00:27:27,765 Speaker 3: had seen, but I was calling and trying to find out, 503 00:27:27,805 --> 00:27:30,085 Speaker 3: and Raphaeley said, well, you know, talk to your roommates. 504 00:27:30,085 --> 00:27:32,525 Speaker 3: We'll go back together. We'll take a closer look see 505 00:27:32,565 --> 00:27:35,685 Speaker 3: what's going on. So he goes back with me, and 506 00:27:35,765 --> 00:27:38,565 Speaker 3: that's when we discover by poking around more, I went 507 00:27:38,605 --> 00:27:41,805 Speaker 3: into other people's rooms. I went to Laura's room, Philamena's 508 00:27:41,845 --> 00:27:45,925 Speaker 3: room and found that Phila Mayna's room had been clearly ransacked. 509 00:27:45,965 --> 00:27:48,965 Speaker 3: The window was broken, her stuff had been gone through, 510 00:27:49,645 --> 00:27:54,085 Speaker 3: but weirdly, her laptop was right there, her very expensive 511 00:27:54,165 --> 00:27:56,365 Speaker 3: camera was right there. I was looking around the house 512 00:27:56,405 --> 00:27:59,205 Speaker 3: going like, what kind of burglar breaks into the house 513 00:27:59,245 --> 00:28:02,205 Speaker 3: and doesn't take a laptop? Like what is going on? 514 00:28:02,485 --> 00:28:05,445 Speaker 3: So it wasn't making sense to me, like what was 515 00:28:05,485 --> 00:28:08,925 Speaker 3: going on? But we called the police. The police came 516 00:28:09,445 --> 00:28:13,005 Speaker 3: my room when of Philamena came back, and eventually, when 517 00:28:13,045 --> 00:28:15,605 Speaker 3: everyone was there and talking and trying to figure out 518 00:28:15,605 --> 00:28:18,645 Speaker 3: what was going on, they broke down Meredith's store and 519 00:28:18,685 --> 00:28:19,445 Speaker 3: found her body. 520 00:28:21,165 --> 00:28:26,885 Speaker 1: So wow, yeah, it's. 521 00:28:26,525 --> 00:28:32,725 Speaker 3: It was not at all in my worst nightmares could 522 00:28:32,725 --> 00:28:35,205 Speaker 3: I imagine that that's what was what we were going 523 00:28:35,285 --> 00:28:35,765 Speaker 3: to find. 524 00:28:35,965 --> 00:28:38,845 Speaker 1: Like I I was really. 525 00:28:38,645 --> 00:28:43,245 Speaker 3: Unprepared for the reality that's set in in that moment, 526 00:28:43,685 --> 00:28:45,245 Speaker 3: so much so that I think a part of me 527 00:28:46,085 --> 00:28:49,445 Speaker 3: went into denial. I was like, wait, no, what, No, 528 00:28:49,725 --> 00:28:54,725 Speaker 3: that's impossible, No, like what and again being very confused 529 00:28:54,725 --> 00:28:57,445 Speaker 3: by a lot of very upset people speaking in very 530 00:28:57,525 --> 00:29:01,085 Speaker 3: rapid Italian, and you know, like I didn't really fully 531 00:29:01,245 --> 00:29:05,005 Speaker 3: fully know that it was Meredith and that she had 532 00:29:05,045 --> 00:29:07,565 Speaker 3: been killed and that was her body in the room 533 00:29:08,005 --> 00:29:10,205 Speaker 3: until I was at the police station and I asked 534 00:29:10,205 --> 00:29:13,685 Speaker 3: a police officer specifically, like do they know that that's Meredith? 535 00:29:13,965 --> 00:29:16,325 Speaker 3: And they said yes, And I said, how how did 536 00:29:16,325 --> 00:29:18,965 Speaker 3: she die? Because I didn't even know? And they said 537 00:29:19,005 --> 00:29:22,245 Speaker 3: that she had that someone had slit her throat, and 538 00:29:22,485 --> 00:29:26,245 Speaker 3: I was just like what, Like. 539 00:29:31,125 --> 00:29:32,965 Speaker 1: It was just beyond imagining. 540 00:29:33,045 --> 00:29:37,485 Speaker 3: I couldn't I couldn't imagine something like that happening to her. 541 00:29:37,965 --> 00:29:43,205 Speaker 2: But then of course you're thrown into an interrogation. You 542 00:29:43,205 --> 00:29:47,845 Speaker 2: don't have a lawyer, you don't have an interpreter. You 543 00:29:47,925 --> 00:29:52,765 Speaker 2: think that you're there in some kind of witness capacity 544 00:29:52,925 --> 00:29:55,805 Speaker 2: or because you were Meredith's house man. 545 00:29:55,925 --> 00:29:58,125 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but what was. 546 00:29:58,165 --> 00:30:00,405 Speaker 2: Really going on with the with the police? 547 00:30:00,525 --> 00:30:00,805 Speaker 1: Yeah? 548 00:30:00,845 --> 00:30:04,005 Speaker 3: So I only found this out later that of all 549 00:30:04,125 --> 00:30:07,565 Speaker 3: the people that were connected to the house or that 550 00:30:07,685 --> 00:30:10,125 Speaker 3: new Meredith, any of the people that they we interviewing, 551 00:30:10,685 --> 00:30:14,165 Speaker 3: the only person that they had wiretapped was me. They 552 00:30:14,205 --> 00:30:18,005 Speaker 3: were listening into my phone calls They were clearly focusing 553 00:30:18,085 --> 00:30:24,085 Speaker 3: their attention on me from day one, and what I 554 00:30:24,285 --> 00:30:27,445 Speaker 3: was told by the police was that I was their 555 00:30:27,565 --> 00:30:31,365 Speaker 3: most important witness, that I was the one who was 556 00:30:31,485 --> 00:30:34,525 Speaker 3: closest to Meredith. I was the one who came home 557 00:30:34,565 --> 00:30:37,885 Speaker 3: and discovered the crime scene and called the police. Therefore, 558 00:30:38,125 --> 00:30:43,125 Speaker 3: I was crucial to them discovering who had killed Meredith, 559 00:30:43,165 --> 00:30:46,365 Speaker 3: and they needed me to be at their disposal twenty 560 00:30:46,365 --> 00:30:49,365 Speaker 3: four to seven so that we couldn't let the you know, 561 00:30:49,405 --> 00:30:52,045 Speaker 3: the killer get away. And I believed them. I mean, 562 00:30:52,125 --> 00:30:56,125 Speaker 3: I had zero experience with this, and I did exactly 563 00:30:56,165 --> 00:30:59,205 Speaker 3: what I was told, and you know, I had good 564 00:30:59,205 --> 00:31:02,325 Speaker 3: reason to. I was raised to, you know, trust police 565 00:31:02,445 --> 00:31:04,485 Speaker 3: to when I was in trouble call nine one one. 566 00:31:04,965 --> 00:31:06,685 Speaker 3: I didn't even know how to call nine one one 567 00:31:06,845 --> 00:31:09,485 Speaker 3: in Italy. That's why I asked Raphael to call for me. 568 00:31:10,165 --> 00:31:12,925 Speaker 3: And I just did exactly what they told me to do. 569 00:31:12,965 --> 00:31:14,685 Speaker 3: So when they called me in at you know, or 570 00:31:14,725 --> 00:31:18,045 Speaker 3: called Raphae la in at ten thirty pm, after I 571 00:31:18,045 --> 00:31:20,845 Speaker 3: had already been answering their questions over and over for 572 00:31:20,965 --> 00:31:23,405 Speaker 3: days already, I didn't question it. 573 00:31:23,925 --> 00:31:24,805 Speaker 1: I just showed up. 574 00:31:24,965 --> 00:31:30,725 Speaker 3: And when the interview started being very different, than what 575 00:31:30,845 --> 00:31:33,085 Speaker 3: I was imagining it would be. 576 00:31:33,645 --> 00:31:34,805 Speaker 1: I started to get scared. 577 00:31:35,445 --> 00:31:38,885 Speaker 3: They you know, I actually did a big series on 578 00:31:38,925 --> 00:31:42,965 Speaker 3: my podcast Labyrinths about this, about false confessions and about 579 00:31:43,005 --> 00:31:46,725 Speaker 3: the methods that are used to break down a person. 580 00:31:46,765 --> 00:31:48,645 Speaker 3: I didn't know at the time that I was being 581 00:31:48,685 --> 00:31:54,285 Speaker 3: subjected to a methodology which is to nitpick a person, 582 00:31:54,685 --> 00:31:57,165 Speaker 3: like ask a person to repeat their story over and 583 00:31:57,205 --> 00:32:00,765 Speaker 3: over again so you can find inconsistencies and nitpick them. 584 00:32:01,125 --> 00:32:05,485 Speaker 3: Then you start escalating things and start making accusations like 585 00:32:05,725 --> 00:32:10,245 Speaker 3: you're lying and putting pressure on the person, bullying, isolation, 586 00:32:11,005 --> 00:32:14,045 Speaker 3: you know, withholding of food and water, bathroom breaks. I 587 00:32:14,085 --> 00:32:15,765 Speaker 3: was on my period and I needed to use the 588 00:32:15,805 --> 00:32:22,205 Speaker 3: bathroom late sleep, absolutely. And then they introduced a new ideas. 589 00:32:22,245 --> 00:32:24,685 Speaker 3: Once they had sort of nitpicked me and made me 590 00:32:24,765 --> 00:32:30,285 Speaker 3: start questioning my own reality, they introduced an idea. They 591 00:32:30,365 --> 00:32:32,605 Speaker 3: lied to me and said that they knew I was 592 00:32:32,645 --> 00:32:34,765 Speaker 3: at my house when the crime occurred, and that I 593 00:32:34,805 --> 00:32:38,445 Speaker 3: had witnessed something so terrible that my mind had blacked 594 00:32:38,485 --> 00:32:41,485 Speaker 3: it out, but that I had to remember it or 595 00:32:41,525 --> 00:32:43,925 Speaker 3: the killer would get away and I would spend thirty 596 00:32:44,005 --> 00:32:49,165 Speaker 3: years in prison. And I, you know, this middle of 597 00:32:49,245 --> 00:32:52,205 Speaker 3: night hours going into this, I didn't know what to think. 598 00:32:52,485 --> 00:32:55,285 Speaker 1: I started. I thought I was crazy. I started to 599 00:32:55,325 --> 00:32:55,845 Speaker 1: believe them. 600 00:32:55,885 --> 00:33:01,325 Speaker 3: And when they located a text message that Patrick, my boss, 601 00:33:01,405 --> 00:33:03,405 Speaker 3: had sent me the night of the murder, or that 602 00:33:03,485 --> 00:33:06,085 Speaker 3: I had sent him actually in response to him sending 603 00:33:06,085 --> 00:33:08,925 Speaker 3: me a message, they interpreted that message that I sent 604 00:33:09,005 --> 00:33:11,405 Speaker 3: him as an appointment to meet with him the night 605 00:33:11,405 --> 00:33:12,005 Speaker 3: of the murder. 606 00:33:12,325 --> 00:33:14,125 Speaker 1: As soon as they saw that I had. 607 00:33:14,085 --> 00:33:22,085 Speaker 2: Said okay us, oh yeah, so yes, n I'll see 608 00:33:22,085 --> 00:33:22,485 Speaker 2: you and I. 609 00:33:22,445 --> 00:33:25,765 Speaker 3: See you later, they interpreted that as not just like okay, chow. 610 00:33:26,005 --> 00:33:28,405 Speaker 3: It was like, we have an appointment the night of 611 00:33:28,445 --> 00:33:30,325 Speaker 3: the murder. And they said, look, you've been lying the 612 00:33:30,325 --> 00:33:32,765 Speaker 3: whole time. Who's this Patrick, He's the one who did it. 613 00:33:33,325 --> 00:33:39,325 Speaker 3: And they asked me to imagine what my repressed memories were. 614 00:33:39,885 --> 00:33:43,245 Speaker 3: And after hours of this, I tried. I tried, and 615 00:33:44,285 --> 00:33:47,245 Speaker 3: at a certain point I became convinced that I was 616 00:33:47,365 --> 00:33:51,445 Speaker 3: maybe remembering the truth. But even then it was I'd 617 00:33:51,485 --> 00:33:56,085 Speaker 3: never like, I never had a memory of anyone killing Meredith. 618 00:33:56,125 --> 00:33:59,085 Speaker 3: I had a memory of being in my kitchen. I 619 00:33:59,165 --> 00:34:02,885 Speaker 3: had a memory of seeing Patrick out, you know, out 620 00:34:02,925 --> 00:34:06,245 Speaker 3: by the school. I had a memory of walking down 621 00:34:06,525 --> 00:34:09,685 Speaker 3: you know, the street outside of Raphael's how but I 622 00:34:09,805 --> 00:34:16,125 Speaker 3: never actually imagined anyone killing Meredith. It's just from smashing 623 00:34:16,165 --> 00:34:19,445 Speaker 3: all of these pieces together that certain inferences were made. 624 00:34:19,485 --> 00:34:21,965 Speaker 3: And then they they typed that all up and had 625 00:34:22,005 --> 00:34:24,605 Speaker 3: me sign it, and that was it. That was enough 626 00:34:24,965 --> 00:34:28,125 Speaker 3: for them to go and arrest Patrick. And what's really 627 00:34:28,205 --> 00:34:30,805 Speaker 3: really sad about all of this is, you know, we're 628 00:34:30,805 --> 00:34:32,885 Speaker 3: talking about Patrick as a victim of all of this. 629 00:34:33,765 --> 00:34:38,605 Speaker 3: Patrick had a solid alibi, Like they went and arrested 630 00:34:38,685 --> 00:34:41,245 Speaker 3: him despite the fact that he had a solid alibi. 631 00:34:42,165 --> 00:34:46,045 Speaker 3: The day after he was arrested, people came forward saying, 632 00:34:46,285 --> 00:34:48,565 Speaker 3: this is he's not the killer. We know where he was. 633 00:34:48,605 --> 00:34:50,845 Speaker 3: He was with us all night at his bar, like 634 00:34:50,885 --> 00:34:54,485 Speaker 3: we were all there, and the police did not release him. 635 00:34:54,685 --> 00:35:00,485 Speaker 2: And luckily later on am I right that they produced 636 00:35:00,605 --> 00:35:03,165 Speaker 2: one of the guys, who I think was from Switzerland 637 00:35:03,325 --> 00:35:07,925 Speaker 2: or something, produced a physical receipt from the bar that 638 00:35:08,085 --> 00:35:09,645 Speaker 2: proved that right was. 639 00:35:10,125 --> 00:35:12,325 Speaker 3: You know, even by this point, right like the day 640 00:35:12,365 --> 00:35:15,205 Speaker 3: after he was arrested, I had already recanted, like I 641 00:35:15,205 --> 00:35:18,685 Speaker 3: had written a retraction, and still they would not release 642 00:35:18,765 --> 00:35:22,965 Speaker 3: him until they had arrested a different person. And even 643 00:35:23,005 --> 00:35:25,485 Speaker 3: after they released him. He spent two weeks in jail 644 00:35:26,085 --> 00:35:30,045 Speaker 3: despite having an ironclad alibi. They kept his bar closed 645 00:35:30,085 --> 00:35:34,805 Speaker 3: for another three months for no reason, and he lost 646 00:35:34,845 --> 00:35:37,965 Speaker 3: his bar because the police would not allow it to open, 647 00:35:38,365 --> 00:35:40,565 Speaker 3: and it was considered, you know, crime scene. 648 00:35:41,125 --> 00:35:44,245 Speaker 2: Aside from Raphael obviously because he was there. But when 649 00:35:44,325 --> 00:35:47,245 Speaker 2: you decided to phone home, who was your first phone 650 00:35:47,285 --> 00:35:49,045 Speaker 2: call to Was it to you mom? And to your dad? 651 00:35:49,445 --> 00:35:49,725 Speaker 3: My mom? 652 00:35:49,805 --> 00:35:54,285 Speaker 2: Mad? Yeah, And what did you say in that confsation? 653 00:35:54,285 --> 00:35:57,365 Speaker 3: Well, the first call that I made was when I 654 00:35:57,405 --> 00:36:00,045 Speaker 3: was coming back from my house that you know, the 655 00:36:00,085 --> 00:36:01,405 Speaker 3: first time I went to my house and I was 656 00:36:01,445 --> 00:36:04,325 Speaker 3: going back to Raphaels and I called my mom and 657 00:36:04,485 --> 00:36:07,085 Speaker 3: it was the middle of the night for her, and 658 00:36:07,245 --> 00:36:11,365 Speaker 3: I said, Mom, I think something's wrong in my house. 659 00:36:12,365 --> 00:36:14,805 Speaker 3: And I described to her what I had seen, and 660 00:36:14,845 --> 00:36:17,245 Speaker 3: she she also didn't really know what to make of it, 661 00:36:17,365 --> 00:36:19,525 Speaker 3: but she said, go back to Raphael. As she knew 662 00:36:19,525 --> 00:36:22,005 Speaker 3: that I was now dating this nice guy named raffae La, 663 00:36:22,285 --> 00:36:25,845 Speaker 3: So go back to rapae LA's talk to him. You know, 664 00:36:25,965 --> 00:36:29,605 Speaker 3: don't go anywhere by yourself. Figure out what's going on 665 00:36:29,685 --> 00:36:33,285 Speaker 3: with your roommates, like call them, you know, figure it out. 666 00:36:33,845 --> 00:36:36,045 Speaker 3: She was very supportive, like in the sense of like, 667 00:36:36,085 --> 00:36:37,725 Speaker 3: you know, you're not crazy, because I was calling her, 668 00:36:37,725 --> 00:36:40,445 Speaker 3: going am I crazy? Like? Am I overreacting? Is this 669 00:36:40,525 --> 00:36:43,005 Speaker 3: something like? And she was like, no, no, no, you're not crazy. 670 00:36:43,045 --> 00:36:45,605 Speaker 3: These are red flags. You should talk to your you know, 671 00:36:46,005 --> 00:36:49,485 Speaker 3: your friends. And then, you know, the next call I 672 00:36:49,565 --> 00:36:53,405 Speaker 3: was able to make was in the police station, and 673 00:36:53,765 --> 00:36:57,085 Speaker 3: I'm trying, you know, to tell her what's going on, 674 00:36:57,165 --> 00:37:02,285 Speaker 3: and I'm trying to figure it out myself, and and 675 00:37:02,405 --> 00:37:05,445 Speaker 3: really not knowing the depth of trouble that I was 676 00:37:05,485 --> 00:37:10,725 Speaker 3: already in, you know, I was for days. My mom 677 00:37:10,845 --> 00:37:13,685 Speaker 3: was telling me, I think you should come home, or 678 00:37:13,765 --> 00:37:15,765 Speaker 3: I think you should go to your family, like we 679 00:37:15,805 --> 00:37:18,325 Speaker 3: have family in Germany. You should go to Germany, just 680 00:37:18,485 --> 00:37:20,685 Speaker 3: you know, get out of there. It's not safe. There's 681 00:37:20,725 --> 00:37:24,005 Speaker 3: a killer on the loose, who knows. And I kept 682 00:37:24,045 --> 00:37:26,965 Speaker 3: telling her, I can't leave. The police say that I'm 683 00:37:26,965 --> 00:37:30,685 Speaker 3: supposed to help them, and. 684 00:37:29,805 --> 00:37:30,645 Speaker 1: So I didn't leave. 685 00:37:31,565 --> 00:37:33,685 Speaker 2: And you never ended up leaving. 686 00:37:33,805 --> 00:37:38,405 Speaker 3: No, I never did, because you know, I was recently 687 00:37:38,805 --> 00:37:46,405 Speaker 3: doing some advocating at my state legislature and I was 688 00:37:46,445 --> 00:37:52,445 Speaker 3: explaining to the legislature about police deception and how it's 689 00:37:52,645 --> 00:37:56,445 Speaker 3: how devastating it is, and I pointed out to them 690 00:37:56,885 --> 00:38:00,325 Speaker 3: that I'm not just you know, I'm famously a wrongly 691 00:38:00,405 --> 00:38:02,925 Speaker 3: convicted person, right like I'm famously a victim of the 692 00:38:02,925 --> 00:38:05,525 Speaker 3: criminal justice system. You would expect me to have a 693 00:38:05,605 --> 00:38:09,765 Speaker 3: negative perspective about the police. But what people failed to 694 00:38:09,765 --> 00:38:13,925 Speaker 3: remember is that I was a crime victim before I 695 00:38:13,965 --> 00:38:17,125 Speaker 3: was ever a victim of the criminal justice system. Someone 696 00:38:17,325 --> 00:38:21,765 Speaker 3: broke into my home and raped and murdered my roommate, 697 00:38:22,485 --> 00:38:26,205 Speaker 3: and I had to come home and discover a crime scene. 698 00:38:26,365 --> 00:38:29,645 Speaker 3: I had to come home and ask for help from 699 00:38:29,725 --> 00:38:34,845 Speaker 3: the police, and I was betrayed as a crime victim. 700 00:38:35,325 --> 00:38:38,885 Speaker 3: I was failed by the police that I called for help, 701 00:38:40,005 --> 00:38:42,965 Speaker 3: And I think people forget that, you know. 702 00:38:43,765 --> 00:38:44,805 Speaker 1: I write in my book. 703 00:38:44,605 --> 00:38:47,325 Speaker 3: About how people don't often ask me what it's like 704 00:38:47,405 --> 00:38:48,805 Speaker 3: to have lost a friend. 705 00:38:49,685 --> 00:38:54,325 Speaker 2: And I was struck by that reading your book. I've 706 00:38:54,365 --> 00:38:57,045 Speaker 2: read both of your books, actually, your first one was 707 00:38:57,325 --> 00:39:02,525 Speaker 2: actually one of the first biographies I ever read. Really, yes, 708 00:39:04,165 --> 00:39:08,285 Speaker 2: but I was struck by the fact that you were 709 00:39:08,365 --> 00:39:14,565 Speaker 2: never afforded the time to process this. What would be 710 00:39:14,605 --> 00:39:19,525 Speaker 2: the hugest trauma in anyone else's life, to lose a friend, 711 00:39:19,565 --> 00:39:22,045 Speaker 2: to lose someone that you lived with in such a 712 00:39:22,165 --> 00:39:28,965 Speaker 2: vicious and violent manner because of the tsunami of legalities 713 00:39:29,005 --> 00:39:30,005 Speaker 2: that ensued. 714 00:39:31,085 --> 00:39:32,285 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's only like. 715 00:39:33,965 --> 00:39:39,605 Speaker 3: Years later now that I get I have the privilege 716 00:39:39,805 --> 00:39:43,365 Speaker 3: of getting to really wrap my head around that loss 717 00:39:44,085 --> 00:39:45,845 Speaker 3: and about what it means for me and what it 718 00:39:45,885 --> 00:39:48,165 Speaker 3: means for me as a mother now, you know, I 719 00:39:48,685 --> 00:39:50,405 Speaker 3: as soon as I became a mother, and you know, 720 00:39:50,445 --> 00:39:53,365 Speaker 3: I talk about this in the book, like I can 721 00:39:53,365 --> 00:39:58,005 Speaker 3: now appreciate the pain that not just my own mother felt, 722 00:39:58,405 --> 00:39:59,885 Speaker 3: but also Meredith's mother. 723 00:40:00,605 --> 00:40:02,245 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and. 724 00:40:02,205 --> 00:40:07,525 Speaker 3: How you would never you would trade places with your 725 00:40:07,605 --> 00:40:08,885 Speaker 3: child in a moment. 726 00:40:10,125 --> 00:40:10,725 Speaker 1: If you could. 727 00:40:12,765 --> 00:40:21,685 Speaker 3: And you know, there is this ongoing sadness. I feel 728 00:40:22,885 --> 00:40:31,645 Speaker 3: that Meredith's death is wrapped up in my identity through 729 00:40:32,005 --> 00:40:36,565 Speaker 3: you know, the whole tsunami as you call it, that followed, 730 00:40:37,165 --> 00:40:39,725 Speaker 3: and I have to I have. 731 00:40:39,645 --> 00:40:40,485 Speaker 1: To hold that. 732 00:40:41,485 --> 00:40:44,325 Speaker 3: And you know, talk about accepting things as they are, 733 00:40:44,565 --> 00:40:48,285 Speaker 3: I have to accept that and hold that and understand 734 00:40:48,885 --> 00:40:52,525 Speaker 3: that responsibility and what that and try to process what 735 00:40:52,565 --> 00:40:56,405 Speaker 3: that means for me, on top of just trying to 736 00:40:56,525 --> 00:41:00,125 Speaker 3: remember those good moments that I had with this lovely girl, 737 00:41:00,565 --> 00:41:02,925 Speaker 3: you know, going to the grocery store, together, or going 738 00:41:02,965 --> 00:41:06,285 Speaker 3: thrift shopping together, or baking cookies together, or visiting the 739 00:41:06,405 --> 00:41:10,645 Speaker 3: chocolate festival in Perusia together, Like, all of those memories 740 00:41:10,685 --> 00:41:16,605 Speaker 3: of her as a person are buried under a mountain 741 00:41:17,485 --> 00:41:20,485 Speaker 3: of year's worth of trauma, and I have to like 742 00:41:20,885 --> 00:41:23,125 Speaker 3: put aside the crime. 743 00:41:22,845 --> 00:41:25,645 Speaker 1: Scene photos that I've seen and. 744 00:41:26,165 --> 00:41:31,805 Speaker 3: The headlines about me that pitted us against each other, 745 00:41:32,125 --> 00:41:38,685 Speaker 3: and the ongoing sort of sense that anything good in 746 00:41:38,765 --> 00:41:41,485 Speaker 3: my life is an offense to her memory in the 747 00:41:41,525 --> 00:41:42,565 Speaker 3: eyes of some people. 748 00:41:43,685 --> 00:41:48,765 Speaker 2: Well, this is interesting because even after you served your 749 00:41:48,805 --> 00:41:54,205 Speaker 2: four years and then that conviction was overturned and you 750 00:41:54,285 --> 00:41:59,485 Speaker 2: stepped into freedom, which turned out to be a finite freedom, yes, 751 00:42:01,125 --> 00:42:05,725 Speaker 2: because then they retried the case. But in that time, 752 00:42:07,845 --> 00:42:09,845 Speaker 2: I think there's a perception that you're like like, oh, 753 00:42:09,885 --> 00:42:14,365 Speaker 2: it's all over free, But you were never really free, 754 00:42:14,765 --> 00:42:20,085 Speaker 2: also because you were so constrained by your inability to 755 00:42:20,165 --> 00:42:22,805 Speaker 2: show joy or do things that still a normal young 756 00:42:22,805 --> 00:42:26,725 Speaker 2: woman would do go out and have a drink. Because 757 00:42:27,365 --> 00:42:31,165 Speaker 2: all people know about the death of Meredith Kircher is 758 00:42:31,205 --> 00:42:32,085 Speaker 2: Amanda Knox. 759 00:42:33,085 --> 00:42:36,485 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean that's a really important difference between 760 00:42:36,925 --> 00:42:39,285 Speaker 3: my first memoir and the second one. And I'm so 761 00:42:39,325 --> 00:42:42,125 Speaker 3: glad that you've read both, because you can appreciate this difference. 762 00:42:42,325 --> 00:42:45,925 Speaker 3: Is Waiting to be Heard was written at a specific 763 00:42:46,005 --> 00:42:48,325 Speaker 3: time in the course of this story, and for a 764 00:42:48,405 --> 00:42:53,125 Speaker 3: very specific reason. I had just been released from prison, 765 00:42:53,165 --> 00:42:56,605 Speaker 3: but my legal troubles were not over, and there was 766 00:42:56,645 --> 00:42:59,925 Speaker 3: a chorus of voices authoring my experience, saying who I 767 00:43:00,085 --> 00:43:02,085 Speaker 3: was and what had happened and what had didn't happen. 768 00:43:02,605 --> 00:43:05,805 Speaker 3: And I felt like I needed to respond to the 769 00:43:05,885 --> 00:43:08,685 Speaker 3: accusations and the stories out there that were about me 770 00:43:08,925 --> 00:43:12,885 Speaker 3: and and give sort of like my voice, just add 771 00:43:12,925 --> 00:43:15,925 Speaker 3: my one voice through my book Waiting to be Heard, 772 00:43:15,965 --> 00:43:17,685 Speaker 3: And it was a very reactive thing. 773 00:43:17,725 --> 00:43:20,245 Speaker 1: It was a description of the case. 774 00:43:20,405 --> 00:43:25,485 Speaker 3: From my perspective, this new book Free is not that 775 00:43:26,405 --> 00:43:29,165 Speaker 3: it is a very very different book, because this book 776 00:43:29,645 --> 00:43:32,845 Speaker 3: didn't have to exist. This is the book that I 777 00:43:32,965 --> 00:43:37,005 Speaker 3: was able to write because I have been able to 778 00:43:37,125 --> 00:43:40,805 Speaker 3: process and grieve and grapple with a lot of the 779 00:43:40,805 --> 00:43:44,445 Speaker 3: things that we overlook when it comes to wrongful conviction stories. 780 00:43:44,765 --> 00:43:46,405 Speaker 1: You know, I talk about how. 781 00:43:47,645 --> 00:43:51,005 Speaker 3: When you hear the typical wrongful conviction story, what you 782 00:43:51,085 --> 00:43:53,605 Speaker 3: hear is, you know, the lead up to the crime, 783 00:43:53,845 --> 00:43:56,205 Speaker 3: and then you hear about the crime, and then you 784 00:43:56,205 --> 00:43:58,125 Speaker 3: hear about the trial, and then you hear that the 785 00:43:58,125 --> 00:44:01,085 Speaker 3: person got out of prison and they had their first hamburger. 786 00:44:01,605 --> 00:44:05,205 Speaker 3: The end, and that's the call it the hamburger moment. 787 00:44:05,325 --> 00:44:05,845 Speaker 5: The end. 788 00:44:06,005 --> 00:44:08,765 Speaker 3: And then the curtain drops and people think that's the 789 00:44:08,845 --> 00:44:11,725 Speaker 3: end of the story, and I want to say, no, no, 790 00:44:11,725 --> 00:44:13,885 Speaker 3: they're not done, done, done, And it's. 791 00:44:13,765 --> 00:44:16,085 Speaker 1: Like, no, no, Now. 792 00:44:15,605 --> 00:44:20,805 Speaker 3: That person has to ask themselves the question now what 793 00:44:21,805 --> 00:44:25,765 Speaker 3: now that I have spent like an enormous amount of 794 00:44:25,805 --> 00:44:28,925 Speaker 3: my life has been devoted to proving my innocence, Who 795 00:44:28,965 --> 00:44:29,285 Speaker 3: am I? 796 00:44:29,965 --> 00:44:31,925 Speaker 1: And what is my place in the world? 797 00:44:32,165 --> 00:44:35,005 Speaker 3: And you know, I had this weird sort of limbo 798 00:44:35,085 --> 00:44:37,725 Speaker 3: space in the that I get go into depth in 799 00:44:37,765 --> 00:44:40,085 Speaker 3: the book about where I'm under a lot of pressure 800 00:44:40,085 --> 00:44:43,165 Speaker 3: because I'm still on trial, but I'm still a young person, 801 00:44:43,245 --> 00:44:47,125 Speaker 3: and I'm making a lot of mistakes and they are big, 802 00:44:47,285 --> 00:44:49,605 Speaker 3: like they're a big deal to make mistakes because I 803 00:44:49,685 --> 00:44:53,485 Speaker 3: have to be perfect. I cannot afford to make mistakes 804 00:44:53,525 --> 00:44:56,445 Speaker 3: when I am on trial for murder. And so it 805 00:44:56,485 --> 00:44:59,165 Speaker 3: was a very scary period of time in my life, 806 00:44:59,725 --> 00:45:05,445 Speaker 3: and I felt levels of shame and self blame and 807 00:45:05,565 --> 00:45:08,725 Speaker 3: isolation that I was not expecting. I thought the entire 808 00:45:08,765 --> 00:45:10,605 Speaker 3: time I was in prison that I was going to, 809 00:45:10,645 --> 00:45:12,645 Speaker 3: like get to go back to the life I had 810 00:45:12,765 --> 00:45:16,125 Speaker 3: before everything happened in Italy, and that was not the case. 811 00:45:16,525 --> 00:45:17,445 Speaker 1: I didn't be the. 812 00:45:17,485 --> 00:45:20,725 Speaker 2: Person and be the person that I could pick yourself 813 00:45:20,805 --> 00:45:24,125 Speaker 2: up again and stick back into that scheme suit. 814 00:45:24,325 --> 00:45:27,645 Speaker 3: And that that world didn't exist and that person didn't exist. 815 00:45:28,285 --> 00:45:32,965 Speaker 3: And so I spent years struggling and feeling ostracized and 816 00:45:33,005 --> 00:45:35,765 Speaker 3: like I didn't belong to the rest of humanity. And 817 00:45:35,805 --> 00:45:41,685 Speaker 3: then over the course of time, little little things happened 818 00:45:41,965 --> 00:45:45,485 Speaker 3: that started turning turning it around for me. Meeting other 819 00:45:45,525 --> 00:45:48,765 Speaker 3: wrongly convicted people, meeting other women who had been vilified 820 00:45:48,765 --> 00:45:54,165 Speaker 3: in the media, meeting my husband, and having the opportunity 821 00:45:54,205 --> 00:45:57,085 Speaker 3: to have the family that I thought had been stolen 822 00:45:57,165 --> 00:45:59,885 Speaker 3: from me when I had received that twenty six year sentence, 823 00:46:00,325 --> 00:46:04,485 Speaker 3: and all of those things. I think the best description 824 00:46:04,565 --> 00:46:08,165 Speaker 3: I've ever heard of grief is it's like holding a 825 00:46:08,205 --> 00:46:10,805 Speaker 3: box that's just a little too big and it's a 826 00:46:10,845 --> 00:46:14,605 Speaker 3: little too heavy. You can hold it, but it's awkward 827 00:46:14,645 --> 00:46:16,405 Speaker 3: and it hurts, and you can only hold it a 828 00:46:16,445 --> 00:46:18,605 Speaker 3: certain way for a certain time until you have to 829 00:46:18,645 --> 00:46:21,565 Speaker 3: shift and I feel like I've been doing that with 830 00:46:21,725 --> 00:46:25,565 Speaker 3: my grief, and you can see the evolution of this 831 00:46:25,805 --> 00:46:29,845 Speaker 3: like awkward positioning that I've had to do and the 832 00:46:29,885 --> 00:46:33,365 Speaker 3: strength that I've had to sort of learn in order 833 00:46:33,405 --> 00:46:36,485 Speaker 3: to carry it. And finally, you know, get to a 834 00:46:36,525 --> 00:46:40,005 Speaker 3: point where I don't feel like I have to that 835 00:46:40,125 --> 00:46:43,525 Speaker 3: my identity, especially as it regards you know, being the 836 00:46:43,565 --> 00:46:44,725 Speaker 3: girl accused of murder. 837 00:46:45,445 --> 00:46:49,685 Speaker 1: That isn't just a burden. It isn't just a source 838 00:46:49,725 --> 00:46:50,725 Speaker 1: of pain or grief. 839 00:46:51,645 --> 00:46:56,845 Speaker 3: It's an opportunity, and it's an opportunity to care for 840 00:46:56,965 --> 00:47:00,925 Speaker 3: what you wish for, build bridges between people who otherwise 841 00:47:00,925 --> 00:47:02,205 Speaker 3: wouldn't understand each other. 842 00:47:05,725 --> 00:47:08,645 Speaker 2: When we come back Amanda, she is the meat cute 843 00:47:08,725 --> 00:47:12,605 Speaker 2: that laid her to her husband Chris, and discusses the 844 00:47:12,645 --> 00:47:17,365 Speaker 2: complexities of moving forward in your life after such a 845 00:47:17,485 --> 00:47:23,885 Speaker 2: life defining tragedy, and Amanda shares her message for Meredith's 846 00:47:23,925 --> 00:47:34,005 Speaker 2: family if they're listening, This is very interesting the course 847 00:47:35,005 --> 00:47:37,405 Speaker 2: that your life has now taken, or in fact that 848 00:47:37,445 --> 00:47:42,085 Speaker 2: you have taken your life. In twofold one, you found 849 00:47:42,085 --> 00:47:45,645 Speaker 2: your husband, Chris, who wanted to hold that box with you. Yeah, 850 00:47:45,685 --> 00:47:51,205 Speaker 2: that must have been amazing for someone who'd come from 851 00:47:51,245 --> 00:47:53,405 Speaker 2: an experience where every time you thought you were in 852 00:47:53,565 --> 00:47:57,005 Speaker 2: kind of a safe place, the rug got pulled from you. 853 00:47:58,645 --> 00:48:01,925 Speaker 2: Were you expecting that when you met Chris for that 854 00:48:02,245 --> 00:48:03,125 Speaker 2: to be the case. 855 00:48:03,245 --> 00:48:06,085 Speaker 3: Now we have a really cute meet cute story, because 856 00:48:06,125 --> 00:48:11,085 Speaker 3: obviously I was not on Tender or any of the websites. 857 00:48:10,445 --> 00:48:11,965 Speaker 1: That was not for me. 858 00:48:12,845 --> 00:48:18,445 Speaker 3: So I was a special kind of ostracized where it's like, oh, 859 00:48:18,685 --> 00:48:21,565 Speaker 3: you've been accused of something horrible and nobody wants to 860 00:48:21,605 --> 00:48:22,645 Speaker 3: have anything to do with you. 861 00:48:22,965 --> 00:48:23,805 Speaker 1: Kind of baggage. 862 00:48:24,485 --> 00:48:24,685 Speaker 2: Yeah. 863 00:48:24,725 --> 00:48:27,605 Speaker 3: I did date two people after coming home, but they 864 00:48:27,605 --> 00:48:30,405 Speaker 3: were people that I knew from before, you know, from 865 00:48:30,445 --> 00:48:34,885 Speaker 3: my childhood, and so there were challenges in regards to 866 00:48:34,925 --> 00:48:38,565 Speaker 3: that because in a way, there was this idea that 867 00:48:38,805 --> 00:48:39,485 Speaker 3: I would be the. 868 00:48:39,445 --> 00:48:41,165 Speaker 1: Person I was before, and I wasn't. 869 00:48:41,285 --> 00:48:43,285 Speaker 3: I had clearly been changed by this, And there was 870 00:48:43,325 --> 00:48:46,285 Speaker 3: also a lot of pressure. You know, people were calling 871 00:48:46,365 --> 00:48:50,445 Speaker 3: my boyfriend my boy toy, and the tabloids. 872 00:48:49,925 --> 00:48:52,725 Speaker 2: Because of course you were Foxy Noxie in the Maybia. 873 00:48:52,845 --> 00:48:57,485 Speaker 3: Still, yes, son, any person who wanted to attach themselves 874 00:48:57,525 --> 00:49:01,045 Speaker 3: to me was either my little male puppet slave or 875 00:49:01,125 --> 00:49:04,645 Speaker 3: they were clearly a psychopath themselves. Because you know, they 876 00:49:04,685 --> 00:49:07,965 Speaker 3: would photoshop knives into my boyfriend's hand, you know, like 877 00:49:08,125 --> 00:49:12,205 Speaker 3: just horrible stuff. So only a psychopath whatever loved me, 878 00:49:12,445 --> 00:49:17,085 Speaker 3: was the message. And I felt very alone. And then 879 00:49:17,325 --> 00:49:21,525 Speaker 3: I started writing for a local newspaper, doing arts correspondents, 880 00:49:22,205 --> 00:49:24,845 Speaker 3: and I was writing under a pseudonym, and I received 881 00:49:24,885 --> 00:49:28,605 Speaker 3: an advanced copy of this novel, this debut novel of 882 00:49:28,645 --> 00:49:31,605 Speaker 3: a local writer. It was called War of the Encyclopedists. 883 00:49:32,285 --> 00:49:33,925 Speaker 3: And I read it and thought it was amazing and 884 00:49:33,965 --> 00:49:36,485 Speaker 3: wrote a rave review and submitted it to the paper and. 885 00:49:36,445 --> 00:49:39,245 Speaker 1: Thought that's that. But then the very next. 886 00:49:39,125 --> 00:49:41,205 Speaker 3: Day I walked out of my apartment and in the 887 00:49:41,245 --> 00:49:45,285 Speaker 3: diner window across the street was a poster for a 888 00:49:45,285 --> 00:49:48,845 Speaker 3: book reading at my local bookstore that night, for that 889 00:49:49,125 --> 00:49:53,285 Speaker 3: very book, And I thought, wow, that's serendipitous. And I 890 00:49:53,365 --> 00:49:56,285 Speaker 3: never go out in public, but come on, it's a 891 00:49:56,285 --> 00:49:59,765 Speaker 3: book reading, Like how, it's not like I'm going to 892 00:49:59,765 --> 00:50:03,405 Speaker 3: a bar or something. Maybe I should just check it out. Go, 893 00:50:03,525 --> 00:50:05,245 Speaker 3: you know, get out of my get out of my 894 00:50:05,365 --> 00:50:09,285 Speaker 3: little self imposed cell that I've turned my apartment into, 895 00:50:09,685 --> 00:50:12,725 Speaker 3: and go out and see something. So I went and 896 00:50:12,765 --> 00:50:15,605 Speaker 3: I saw this book reading, and I thought it was 897 00:50:15,645 --> 00:50:18,925 Speaker 3: so charming, and I asked for an interview afterwards, and 898 00:50:19,325 --> 00:50:22,805 Speaker 3: that interview turned into drinking Scotch and watching Star Trek 899 00:50:22,845 --> 00:50:23,285 Speaker 3: and just. 900 00:50:23,245 --> 00:50:26,725 Speaker 1: Kind of hitting it off. And I thought, Wow, did 901 00:50:26,725 --> 00:50:27,845 Speaker 1: I just make a friend? 902 00:50:28,485 --> 00:50:28,605 Speaker 3: Like? 903 00:50:28,645 --> 00:50:30,125 Speaker 1: Am I allowed to do that? 904 00:50:30,245 --> 00:50:30,405 Speaker 2: Now? 905 00:50:30,525 --> 00:50:31,365 Speaker 1: This was very. 906 00:50:31,205 --> 00:50:34,965 Speaker 3: Shortly after I was definitively exonerated, and I thought, oh 907 00:50:34,965 --> 00:50:38,005 Speaker 3: my god, I'm I'm not running, I'm not like, I'm 908 00:50:38,005 --> 00:50:40,165 Speaker 3: not afraid that some acts is going to fall and 909 00:50:40,605 --> 00:50:43,405 Speaker 3: chop off my head. Like I'm I'm okay, and can 910 00:50:43,445 --> 00:50:44,285 Speaker 3: I make friends? 911 00:50:45,005 --> 00:50:47,885 Speaker 1: And yes? What turned out to be the answer. 912 00:50:47,925 --> 00:50:51,005 Speaker 3: And like, the lovely thing about Chris was that he 913 00:50:51,045 --> 00:50:53,645 Speaker 3: didn't google me, and he wasn't a true crime guy. 914 00:50:53,685 --> 00:50:57,285 Speaker 1: He was a poetry guy. So like he vaguely. 915 00:50:56,885 --> 00:50:59,645 Speaker 3: Knew that I was, you know, a part of some 916 00:50:59,685 --> 00:51:03,245 Speaker 3: sort of true crime scandal, but he had no idea and. 917 00:51:03,365 --> 00:51:06,765 Speaker 2: Had friends of He's not gone, Oh that Samanda. 918 00:51:06,405 --> 00:51:08,325 Speaker 1: Oh, plenty of friends of his did. 919 00:51:08,365 --> 00:51:11,525 Speaker 3: And in fact, you know, funnily enough, a very good 920 00:51:11,605 --> 00:51:14,605 Speaker 3: friend of his named Steph, who's a very good friend 921 00:51:14,605 --> 00:51:18,485 Speaker 3: of ours to this day. The minute she realized who 922 00:51:19,205 --> 00:51:22,565 Speaker 3: I was, which was the minute she saw me, she 923 00:51:23,445 --> 00:51:26,925 Speaker 3: sat me down and sort of was interrogating me about 924 00:51:26,965 --> 00:51:29,325 Speaker 3: like the whole experience because she had followed it, and 925 00:51:29,445 --> 00:51:33,325 Speaker 3: Chris was mortified. He was like, Steph, stop being a 926 00:51:33,445 --> 00:51:37,125 Speaker 3: crazy person. Like he clearly just wanted me to feel 927 00:51:37,165 --> 00:51:40,365 Speaker 3: like a normal person. And he didn't google me and 928 00:51:40,845 --> 00:51:42,965 Speaker 3: was friends with me for like nine months before we 929 00:51:43,005 --> 00:51:46,645 Speaker 3: started dating. And every single time any of like any 930 00:51:46,685 --> 00:51:48,645 Speaker 3: person he met knew that he was friends with me, 931 00:51:48,685 --> 00:51:50,645 Speaker 3: they would always ask him like, oh, is she weird? 932 00:51:50,685 --> 00:51:51,765 Speaker 1: What do you think about the case? 933 00:51:51,805 --> 00:51:54,165 Speaker 3: And he was like, look, I know that she's a 934 00:51:54,205 --> 00:51:58,005 Speaker 3: really cool person, and I think you're being weird by 935 00:51:58,125 --> 00:52:00,085 Speaker 3: going down the Google rabbit hole with her, like I 936 00:52:00,125 --> 00:52:02,725 Speaker 3: prefer to get to know her as a person, And 937 00:52:02,765 --> 00:52:05,245 Speaker 3: of course, you know, things would come up, like there's 938 00:52:05,285 --> 00:52:08,365 Speaker 3: a great example of how one time he asked me 939 00:52:08,405 --> 00:52:11,605 Speaker 3: if I wanted to watch the movie Wally with him, 940 00:52:11,965 --> 00:52:13,565 Speaker 3: and I was like, what is Wally? 941 00:52:14,565 --> 00:52:16,765 Speaker 1: And he was like, what is Wally? How did you 942 00:52:16,845 --> 00:52:20,885 Speaker 1: miss Wally? Like Wally was hueah, And I was. 943 00:52:20,845 --> 00:52:24,125 Speaker 3: Like, probably came out when I was in prison, and 944 00:52:24,165 --> 00:52:26,885 Speaker 3: he was like, you know, like so there. It wasn't 945 00:52:26,925 --> 00:52:29,325 Speaker 3: like I was hiding anything from him, but I didn't 946 00:52:29,365 --> 00:52:33,885 Speaker 3: feel like I was being seen through that lens, and 947 00:52:34,005 --> 00:52:36,885 Speaker 3: the idea that I could be in a room with 948 00:52:36,925 --> 00:52:39,365 Speaker 3: a person who thought I was a nice person, who 949 00:52:39,445 --> 00:52:42,045 Speaker 3: wasn't looking at me through the lens of girl accused 950 00:52:42,045 --> 00:52:45,845 Speaker 3: of murder was such a relief and such a rare 951 00:52:45,845 --> 00:52:49,205 Speaker 3: and beautiful thing, and it is a big reason why 952 00:52:49,205 --> 00:52:51,045 Speaker 3: I fell in love with him. That and the fact 953 00:52:51,085 --> 00:52:52,965 Speaker 3: that he loves my cats and I was like a 954 00:52:53,005 --> 00:52:54,525 Speaker 3: crazy cat lady when he met me. 955 00:52:54,565 --> 00:52:55,605 Speaker 1: I had four cats. 956 00:52:55,645 --> 00:52:58,485 Speaker 3: I was a one woman and four cats person because 957 00:52:58,485 --> 00:53:00,845 Speaker 3: I was very lonely, like I was, so I was 958 00:53:00,885 --> 00:53:03,845 Speaker 3: so alone, and I didn't you know, cats and pets 959 00:53:03,885 --> 00:53:06,005 Speaker 3: will love you unconditionally, and they don't know if you've 960 00:53:06,005 --> 00:53:09,845 Speaker 3: been accused of murder. So here I was alone with 961 00:53:10,045 --> 00:53:12,925 Speaker 3: four cats, and he was not intimidated by that. 962 00:53:14,365 --> 00:53:18,845 Speaker 2: Going back to your new book, you embark on the 963 00:53:18,885 --> 00:53:23,125 Speaker 2: most extraordinary quest, and it's part of your work now 964 00:53:23,325 --> 00:53:29,245 Speaker 2: with people that have been unjustly accused or in prison. Indeed, 965 00:53:29,525 --> 00:53:32,725 Speaker 2: but what you decide to do in the book is 966 00:53:32,805 --> 00:53:37,125 Speaker 2: to find the prosecutor who made your life a misery, 967 00:53:37,685 --> 00:53:41,125 Speaker 2: who lied about you, who was part of the case 968 00:53:41,125 --> 00:53:44,245 Speaker 2: for convicting you without evidence or in fact evidence that 969 00:53:45,205 --> 00:53:50,885 Speaker 2: should have exonerated you. Eight years Minnini made your life. 970 00:53:51,005 --> 00:53:52,325 Speaker 2: I'm going to say a misery. 971 00:53:53,005 --> 00:53:53,845 Speaker 1: That's a nice word. 972 00:53:56,245 --> 00:54:00,085 Speaker 2: Yeah, And then you decide, and it's kind of it 973 00:54:00,165 --> 00:54:04,285 Speaker 2: runs parallel to your quest of kind of rediscovering yourself 974 00:54:04,325 --> 00:54:07,605 Speaker 2: and who you are as your new release self. But 975 00:54:07,805 --> 00:54:10,405 Speaker 2: you decide to not own to go back to Italy 976 00:54:10,645 --> 00:54:12,125 Speaker 2: because I know a lot of people would be like, 977 00:54:12,205 --> 00:54:13,845 Speaker 2: is she ever going to go back to Italy? I 978 00:54:13,885 --> 00:54:14,765 Speaker 2: bet she never will. 979 00:54:14,965 --> 00:54:17,645 Speaker 3: Yeah. A lot of people ask me that, and typically 980 00:54:17,725 --> 00:54:19,925 Speaker 3: they assume no because they think I must be totally 981 00:54:19,965 --> 00:54:22,885 Speaker 3: scared or they think, oh, it's a corrupt in just country. 982 00:54:22,925 --> 00:54:24,525 Speaker 1: And you know, you're right that. 983 00:54:25,525 --> 00:54:27,645 Speaker 3: You know, when I first came home, it wasn't sure 984 00:54:27,645 --> 00:54:29,085 Speaker 3: if I would ever go back to Italy. It was 985 00:54:29,125 --> 00:54:31,965 Speaker 3: this scary place that something scary had happened to me. 986 00:54:32,725 --> 00:54:35,565 Speaker 3: But I didn't have the bigger perspective, right like, I 987 00:54:35,765 --> 00:54:39,885 Speaker 3: had not yet met other wrongly convicted people and realized 988 00:54:40,245 --> 00:54:44,165 Speaker 3: how prevalent this problem is, especially here in the United States, 989 00:54:44,165 --> 00:54:47,365 Speaker 3: where we have the biggest you know, incarcerated population per 990 00:54:47,725 --> 00:54:48,565 Speaker 3: capita in the world. 991 00:54:48,645 --> 00:54:49,365 Speaker 1: It's insane. 992 00:54:49,405 --> 00:54:52,805 Speaker 3: And so after I met other wrongly convicted people, here 993 00:54:52,845 --> 00:54:55,365 Speaker 3: in the United States, and they left such an impression 994 00:54:55,405 --> 00:54:55,725 Speaker 3: on me. 995 00:54:56,165 --> 00:54:57,365 Speaker 1: I started asking some questions. 996 00:54:57,365 --> 00:55:00,045 Speaker 3: I started poking around and trying to figure this thing out. 997 00:55:00,125 --> 00:55:04,205 Speaker 3: The why question bothered me. I was plagued by this, 998 00:55:04,325 --> 00:55:07,645 Speaker 3: like why did this happen? It didn't need to happen. 999 00:55:08,245 --> 00:55:09,645 Speaker 3: Why did they focus me? 1000 00:55:09,845 --> 00:55:12,045 Speaker 2: Do you mean why did it happen to you? 1001 00:55:12,325 --> 00:55:12,605 Speaker 1: Yeah? 1002 00:55:12,605 --> 00:55:14,965 Speaker 3: But you know, like why was there? Why did this 1003 00:55:15,005 --> 00:55:17,685 Speaker 3: wrongful conviction happen? I mean also I would love to 1004 00:55:17,725 --> 00:55:20,605 Speaker 3: know the why did this guy, you know, break into 1005 00:55:20,645 --> 00:55:23,045 Speaker 3: our house and murder my roommate? But that seemed like 1006 00:55:23,245 --> 00:55:27,085 Speaker 3: more understandable in the sense that like, here's this off, 1007 00:55:27,165 --> 00:55:30,085 Speaker 3: you know, unhinged guy who was clearly spiraling and was 1008 00:55:30,165 --> 00:55:34,365 Speaker 3: violent and towards women. Like I sort of get the 1009 00:55:34,445 --> 00:55:37,485 Speaker 3: guy who committed this crime, you know, like he should 1010 00:55:37,525 --> 00:55:37,925 Speaker 3: be in jail. 1011 00:55:37,965 --> 00:55:39,525 Speaker 1: He's a dangerous person the end. 1012 00:55:40,205 --> 00:55:44,605 Speaker 2: Sure, but he was also sentenced to less time than 1013 00:55:44,805 --> 00:55:49,685 Speaker 2: you were, even though his fingerprints, his bloody. 1014 00:55:49,285 --> 00:55:51,565 Speaker 1: Footpats in DNA. Yeah, all of. 1015 00:55:51,525 --> 00:55:54,645 Speaker 2: It was all over the crime scene and her body. 1016 00:55:54,725 --> 00:55:56,205 Speaker 2: And you were sentenced too. 1017 00:55:56,405 --> 00:56:00,325 Speaker 3: Was it twenty I was twenty six, Yeah, so twenty 1018 00:56:00,405 --> 00:56:02,765 Speaker 3: six first, and then they raised it to twenty eight 1019 00:56:02,805 --> 00:56:06,885 Speaker 3: and a half and he was ultimately sentenced to sixteen years, 1020 00:56:07,365 --> 00:56:10,765 Speaker 3: so and he only spent thirteen in prison. And like 1021 00:56:10,805 --> 00:56:13,685 Speaker 3: I said, he went on to then assault another young 1022 00:56:13,725 --> 00:56:15,885 Speaker 3: woman and he's currently on trial for that right now. 1023 00:56:16,605 --> 00:56:21,125 Speaker 3: So yeah, I encountered other wrongly convicted people here in 1024 00:56:21,165 --> 00:56:28,045 Speaker 3: the US, and like met anybody who's been hurt. 1025 00:56:26,965 --> 00:56:29,805 Speaker 1: You want to know why, and you want to know. 1026 00:56:29,925 --> 00:56:31,725 Speaker 3: If you want to know if the person who hurt 1027 00:56:31,765 --> 00:56:34,085 Speaker 3: you cares if they hurt you. 1028 00:56:34,085 --> 00:56:35,725 Speaker 1: You want to know if they're going to acknowledge it. 1029 00:56:36,685 --> 00:56:39,965 Speaker 3: Like acknowledgment is a huge thing that is very healing 1030 00:56:40,005 --> 00:56:43,565 Speaker 3: for people who have been hurt. And what I gathered 1031 00:56:43,565 --> 00:56:48,485 Speaker 3: from other wrongly convicted people was that prosecutors, police officers 1032 00:56:48,565 --> 00:56:51,365 Speaker 3: do not say that they are sorry, They do not 1033 00:56:51,485 --> 00:56:54,165 Speaker 3: admit that they were wrong. No, But I at the 1034 00:56:54,205 --> 00:56:59,565 Speaker 3: same time, I could not believe that the police officers 1035 00:56:59,685 --> 00:57:02,365 Speaker 3: or the prosecutor in my case were like Rudy Gade, 1036 00:57:02,365 --> 00:57:04,605 Speaker 3: the man who murdered Meredith, that they knew that they 1037 00:57:04,605 --> 00:57:06,285 Speaker 3: were doing wrong and they. 1038 00:57:06,165 --> 00:57:08,045 Speaker 1: Did it anyway, And. 1039 00:57:07,845 --> 00:57:10,805 Speaker 3: They were sort of sitting there in their offices cackling 1040 00:57:10,805 --> 00:57:12,845 Speaker 3: away at how they were putting innocent people in jail. 1041 00:57:12,885 --> 00:57:16,445 Speaker 3: I just could not believe that, and so I asked myself, well, then, 1042 00:57:16,485 --> 00:57:19,485 Speaker 3: how did this happen? Why did this happen? Why did 1043 00:57:19,525 --> 00:57:22,765 Speaker 3: they think they were doing the right thing? And I 1044 00:57:22,845 --> 00:57:24,445 Speaker 3: thought about it, and I thought about it and I 1045 00:57:24,485 --> 00:57:28,205 Speaker 3: thought about it, and then finally I asked. I told myself, well, 1046 00:57:29,045 --> 00:57:33,845 Speaker 3: I should just ask them, and so I reached out 1047 00:57:33,845 --> 00:57:34,685 Speaker 3: to him. 1048 00:57:34,925 --> 00:57:38,325 Speaker 2: And you kind of became pain pals for a couple 1049 00:57:38,365 --> 00:57:41,125 Speaker 2: of years. Yeah, which is during lockdown. 1050 00:57:41,205 --> 00:57:46,005 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I which is the most bizarre experience. 1051 00:57:46,045 --> 00:57:47,805 Speaker 3: And you know, I talk about it a lot in 1052 00:57:47,845 --> 00:57:51,565 Speaker 3: the book because it is so interesting and bizarre and 1053 00:57:52,565 --> 00:57:56,005 Speaker 3: how like banal sometimes it was because like part of 1054 00:57:56,285 --> 00:58:00,645 Speaker 3: the way that I approached him was to say was 1055 00:58:00,765 --> 00:58:03,045 Speaker 3: to say not you know, you might expect me to 1056 00:58:03,125 --> 00:58:05,325 Speaker 3: approach him and say you were wrong and why won't 1057 00:58:05,325 --> 00:58:06,085 Speaker 3: you say you're sorry? 1058 00:58:06,085 --> 00:58:07,765 Speaker 1: And why did you do this to me? And how 1059 00:58:07,845 --> 00:58:09,725 Speaker 1: dare you? And that was not my approach. 1060 00:58:10,125 --> 00:58:13,445 Speaker 3: I knew that if I approached someone that way from 1061 00:58:13,485 --> 00:58:18,485 Speaker 3: this like adversarial place, that he would become defensive and 1062 00:58:18,565 --> 00:58:21,965 Speaker 3: obstructive like he had always been. We had been in 1063 00:58:22,165 --> 00:58:25,605 Speaker 3: adversarial roles this whole time, and so I tried to imagine, 1064 00:58:25,765 --> 00:58:27,805 Speaker 3: how do I have a relationship with him that is 1065 00:58:27,925 --> 00:58:31,845 Speaker 3: not adversarial. And so what I did was I tried 1066 00:58:31,845 --> 00:58:36,605 Speaker 3: to find common ground. And I said to him, well, 1067 00:58:36,685 --> 00:58:39,365 Speaker 3: this case has been huge in the media. I have 1068 00:58:39,445 --> 00:58:42,005 Speaker 3: been misrepresented in the press, and I bet you feel 1069 00:58:42,045 --> 00:58:44,205 Speaker 3: you have been misrepresented in the press as well. 1070 00:58:44,685 --> 00:58:46,005 Speaker 1: I think we have that in common. 1071 00:58:46,565 --> 00:58:48,445 Speaker 3: And I think we never actually really got to know 1072 00:58:48,525 --> 00:58:51,445 Speaker 3: each other because you were my prosecutor and I was 1073 00:58:51,485 --> 00:58:55,205 Speaker 3: your defendant, and we were always at odds with each other. 1074 00:58:55,245 --> 00:58:57,165 Speaker 1: And so I have no idea who you are. 1075 00:58:57,845 --> 00:58:59,805 Speaker 3: I have this image of you in my mind as 1076 00:58:59,845 --> 00:59:02,725 Speaker 3: this nightmarish figure, but I know that that can't be true. 1077 00:59:03,165 --> 00:59:06,085 Speaker 3: So I want to know who you really are, and 1078 00:59:06,125 --> 00:59:08,085 Speaker 3: I hope you want to know who I really am. 1079 00:59:09,445 --> 00:59:14,245 Speaker 3: And so that became this, you know, ongoing discussion of 1080 00:59:14,365 --> 00:59:17,685 Speaker 3: just sharing with each other moments of our lives as 1081 00:59:17,685 --> 00:59:20,165 Speaker 3: we were, you know, experiencing the world. He would tell 1082 00:59:20,205 --> 00:59:22,205 Speaker 3: me about how he loves the rain, and he loves 1083 00:59:22,245 --> 00:59:25,285 Speaker 3: to listen to Wagner and read Lord of the Rings 1084 00:59:25,605 --> 00:59:29,845 Speaker 3: and so like little banal things like that. But then 1085 00:59:29,885 --> 00:59:32,005 Speaker 3: on the flip side, there were always these little like 1086 00:59:33,045 --> 00:59:35,205 Speaker 3: moments where we would touch on the case or we 1087 00:59:35,245 --> 00:59:39,045 Speaker 3: would touch upon a meta discussion about the case. There's 1088 00:59:39,085 --> 00:59:42,485 Speaker 3: a whole chapter in my book called Navita and Djoko, 1089 00:59:42,725 --> 00:59:46,405 Speaker 3: A Life on the Line, where Jiuliano asked me to 1090 00:59:46,485 --> 00:59:50,445 Speaker 3: watch a movie about a detective who realizes that the 1091 00:59:50,485 --> 00:59:53,085 Speaker 3: person that he put in prison for a murder was 1092 00:59:53,125 --> 00:59:58,685 Speaker 3: actually innocent and the torment of the prosecutor as he 1093 00:59:58,765 --> 01:00:02,645 Speaker 3: realizes his mistake. And he was like, this is how 1094 01:00:02,685 --> 01:00:07,885 Speaker 3: I feel about our case. And I was like, what, what? 1095 01:00:07,885 --> 01:00:10,085 Speaker 1: What you know? 1096 01:00:10,685 --> 01:00:14,405 Speaker 3: And so there were all these like indirect ways that 1097 01:00:14,565 --> 01:00:20,285 Speaker 3: I was meant to he was like elude new realizations 1098 01:00:20,525 --> 01:00:24,405 Speaker 3: about the case, but he would never expressly say them. 1099 01:00:24,605 --> 01:00:27,045 Speaker 3: And it got to the point where I had to 1100 01:00:27,085 --> 01:00:31,045 Speaker 3: ask myself, what am I doing? What am I really 1101 01:00:31,125 --> 01:00:36,005 Speaker 3: doing here? Am I trying to get him to say 1102 01:00:36,125 --> 01:00:40,725 Speaker 3: something to me that I need him to say, or 1103 01:00:41,205 --> 01:00:44,005 Speaker 3: do I have something that I need to say to 1104 01:00:44,125 --> 01:00:49,405 Speaker 3: him that I hope he will hear? And that that 1105 01:00:49,885 --> 01:00:54,245 Speaker 3: tension brought me to Italy to sit down with him 1106 01:00:54,285 --> 01:00:56,525 Speaker 3: and sit across from him and have a discussion with 1107 01:00:56,605 --> 01:00:57,685 Speaker 3: him about the case. 1108 01:00:58,165 --> 01:01:02,525 Speaker 2: Despite the advice and the instincts of every single member 1109 01:01:02,565 --> 01:01:05,285 Speaker 2: of your family except probably your husband. 1110 01:01:05,565 --> 01:01:07,285 Speaker 1: Yes, my husband was supportive. 1111 01:01:07,765 --> 01:01:10,285 Speaker 3: Everyone else in my family thought I was crazy and 1112 01:01:10,325 --> 01:01:12,365 Speaker 3: they thought it was a useless endeavor in what was 1113 01:01:12,365 --> 01:01:14,245 Speaker 3: I thinking? And I was just putting it myself in 1114 01:01:14,325 --> 01:01:19,365 Speaker 3: danger again. But I intuitively felt like I was doing 1115 01:01:19,805 --> 01:01:27,085 Speaker 3: something really important, that for the first time in my life, 1116 01:01:27,205 --> 01:01:31,765 Speaker 3: I was not just reacting to this worst experience of 1117 01:01:31,765 --> 01:01:33,245 Speaker 3: my life. 1118 01:01:33,325 --> 01:01:34,605 Speaker 1: I was being proactive. 1119 01:01:34,765 --> 01:01:40,405 Speaker 3: I was proving who I was by making the choice 1120 01:01:41,805 --> 01:01:43,925 Speaker 3: to sit down with this man who had hurt me 1121 01:01:44,725 --> 01:01:48,765 Speaker 3: and to tell him that I didn't hate him, and that, 1122 01:01:49,965 --> 01:01:52,565 Speaker 3: you know, all the other things that I talk about 1123 01:01:52,565 --> 01:01:56,165 Speaker 3: in the book, but ultimately it comes down to being kind. 1124 01:01:56,325 --> 01:02:01,285 Speaker 2: You know, you then saw Raphael Yeap, but had also 1125 01:02:01,325 --> 01:02:05,245 Speaker 2: been exonerated with you, but who you hadn't really maintained 1126 01:02:05,725 --> 01:02:07,845 Speaker 2: any relationship with over those years. 1127 01:02:07,925 --> 01:02:10,845 Speaker 3: Obviously, I would say that it's not that I didn't 1128 01:02:10,885 --> 01:02:15,525 Speaker 3: maintain a relationship with him, It's just that our relationship 1129 01:02:16,165 --> 01:02:20,125 Speaker 3: was fraught, right, Like, we knew each other five days 1130 01:02:20,645 --> 01:02:26,405 Speaker 3: before this crime completely took over our lives, and so 1131 01:02:26,645 --> 01:02:31,645 Speaker 3: we didn't really like our little, beautiful, little love affair 1132 01:02:31,925 --> 01:02:37,605 Speaker 3: was very short lived, and then we both became you know, 1133 01:02:38,245 --> 01:02:41,685 Speaker 3: we both became people who had survived this intense trauma, 1134 01:02:41,725 --> 01:02:43,725 Speaker 3: and so we sort of looked at each other and 1135 01:02:43,845 --> 01:02:47,205 Speaker 3: saw in each other the trauma that we had lived through, 1136 01:02:47,805 --> 01:02:50,445 Speaker 3: and he had his own traumas from it. Like I 1137 01:02:50,605 --> 01:02:52,405 Speaker 3: was the one who was big in the headlines, and 1138 01:02:52,405 --> 01:02:54,245 Speaker 3: that comes with its own burden and pain. 1139 01:02:54,605 --> 01:02:55,845 Speaker 1: But he was overlooked in the. 1140 01:02:55,805 --> 01:02:58,165 Speaker 3: Media and people didn't seem to care whether or not 1141 01:02:58,245 --> 01:03:01,965 Speaker 3: he had a motive or there was any DNA of 1142 01:03:02,045 --> 01:03:04,645 Speaker 3: him in the crimes, you know, like he felt like 1143 01:03:04,765 --> 01:03:08,365 Speaker 3: mister nobody. And when he looked at me, he saw 1144 01:03:09,445 --> 01:03:14,165 Speaker 3: how being willing, just being my alibi had almost ruined 1145 01:03:14,205 --> 01:03:14,765 Speaker 3: his life. 1146 01:03:15,245 --> 01:03:18,605 Speaker 2: And also you had another country to go home. 1147 01:03:18,485 --> 01:03:22,205 Speaker 3: Yes, and he didn't. His own country had betrayed him. 1148 01:03:23,445 --> 01:03:27,005 Speaker 3: And he saw in me things that he didn't have. 1149 01:03:27,885 --> 01:03:32,085 Speaker 3: I have a husband and children, and he wanted that 1150 01:03:32,245 --> 01:03:35,605 Speaker 3: for himself too, And he's had a harder time getting 1151 01:03:35,645 --> 01:03:40,445 Speaker 3: work and making relationships because of that stigma that is 1152 01:03:40,485 --> 01:03:44,885 Speaker 3: still that he still carries in Italy. And you know, 1153 01:03:44,885 --> 01:03:49,045 Speaker 3: when I met him, it was really remarkable because on 1154 01:03:49,085 --> 01:03:50,725 Speaker 3: the one hand, it was really beautiful. 1155 01:03:51,085 --> 01:03:54,285 Speaker 1: Right we went to Gubio finally. 1156 01:03:54,165 --> 01:03:57,045 Speaker 3: That place where we were supposed to have Truffle Town 1157 01:03:57,045 --> 01:03:59,325 Speaker 3: where we were supposed to have our little romantic weekend, 1158 01:03:59,685 --> 01:04:02,085 Speaker 3: but it was not the romantic weekend that we had 1159 01:04:02,125 --> 01:04:05,245 Speaker 3: originally planned. You know, my mom and my husband and 1160 01:04:05,285 --> 01:04:07,485 Speaker 3: my baby were there, and there was a certain point 1161 01:04:08,485 --> 01:04:13,485 Speaker 3: where he was pushing my daughter's stroller and we saw 1162 01:04:13,765 --> 01:04:17,085 Speaker 3: a clown who was, you know, making balloons, and the 1163 01:04:17,125 --> 01:04:19,365 Speaker 3: clown he pushed up, you know, my daughter up to 1164 01:04:19,405 --> 01:04:21,445 Speaker 3: the clown and he was making faces at her. And 1165 01:04:21,485 --> 01:04:23,325 Speaker 3: then the clown said to him, oh, you have such 1166 01:04:23,325 --> 01:04:25,805 Speaker 3: a beautiful daughter, and he had to. 1167 01:04:25,765 --> 01:04:29,045 Speaker 1: Say, she's not mine. 1168 01:04:29,205 --> 01:04:32,725 Speaker 3: And I knew because I was feeling it too, like 1169 01:04:33,125 --> 01:04:36,685 Speaker 3: this could have been us, like we you know, if 1170 01:04:36,685 --> 01:04:40,845 Speaker 3: something tragic hadn't just hit us like a train went 1171 01:04:40,885 --> 01:04:44,125 Speaker 3: in our youth, like maybe all of these years later, 1172 01:04:44,205 --> 01:04:47,685 Speaker 3: we were just coming back to Goobio to as a 1173 01:04:47,925 --> 01:04:51,845 Speaker 3: remembrance of this beautiful romantic vacation that really solidified our 1174 01:04:51,885 --> 01:04:54,405 Speaker 3: love for each other, and instead it wasn't. It was 1175 01:04:55,365 --> 01:04:59,165 Speaker 3: It was a in a way, a pale shadow of 1176 01:04:59,205 --> 01:05:03,085 Speaker 3: what our life could have been together. In another way, 1177 01:05:03,125 --> 01:05:07,285 Speaker 3: it was a grieving the love that could have been. 1178 01:05:08,525 --> 01:05:11,285 Speaker 3: And it was nice to have that moment and share 1179 01:05:11,325 --> 01:05:13,805 Speaker 3: that with him. I knew it meant a lot to him. 1180 01:05:13,845 --> 01:05:16,965 Speaker 3: And he also wanted to go and visit tomb of 1181 01:05:17,005 --> 01:05:22,205 Speaker 3: Saint Francis, which we had visited together before everything horrible 1182 01:05:22,205 --> 01:05:25,685 Speaker 3: had happened. And he told me that the first time 1183 01:05:25,685 --> 01:05:27,845 Speaker 3: that we went to the tomb, he had prayed to 1184 01:05:27,925 --> 01:05:30,645 Speaker 3: Saint Francis that we would always have good times together. 1185 01:05:31,805 --> 01:05:35,325 Speaker 3: And so when we went back, he went and prayed 1186 01:05:35,325 --> 01:05:38,805 Speaker 3: to Saint Francis and said, I don't think you understood me. 1187 01:05:42,925 --> 01:05:49,565 Speaker 5: And you know, like he's a very sweet and thoughtful 1188 01:05:49,605 --> 01:05:54,165 Speaker 5: person who also went through this horrible experience, and he 1189 01:05:54,325 --> 01:05:58,485 Speaker 5: is on his own path to making meaning and it's 1190 01:05:58,525 --> 01:05:59,685 Speaker 5: going to be different than mine. 1191 01:05:59,685 --> 01:05:59,885 Speaker 3: You know. 1192 01:06:01,645 --> 01:06:07,445 Speaker 2: My final question to you, Amanda, as you navigate this 1193 01:06:08,485 --> 01:06:12,245 Speaker 2: new path that you have and find the grace in 1194 01:06:12,285 --> 01:06:17,205 Speaker 2: that and the grace in forgiveness the churches, is there 1195 01:06:17,205 --> 01:06:20,965 Speaker 2: a relationship there with meridiths family today? 1196 01:06:21,165 --> 01:06:24,285 Speaker 3: There isn't, but I always always have the hope that 1197 01:06:24,325 --> 01:06:28,125 Speaker 3: there will be. I would really love to visit Meredith's grave, 1198 01:06:29,445 --> 01:06:31,405 Speaker 3: and I would want to do that with their blessing, 1199 01:06:32,725 --> 01:06:36,805 Speaker 3: and so I don't want to put pressure on them. 1200 01:06:37,365 --> 01:06:45,205 Speaker 3: Her parents have passed so what's left is her siblings. Yeah, 1201 01:06:45,325 --> 01:06:48,285 Speaker 3: I hope that we can have a relationship, but I 1202 01:06:48,325 --> 01:06:51,805 Speaker 3: also know that they have really struggled with the fact 1203 01:06:51,845 --> 01:06:55,765 Speaker 3: that there Italy did not give them the closure that 1204 01:06:55,805 --> 01:06:59,525 Speaker 3: they deserved. I suppose if they are listening to this, 1205 01:06:59,605 --> 01:07:02,365 Speaker 3: I would just say I would love to have a 1206 01:07:02,405 --> 01:07:03,205 Speaker 3: relationship with you. 1207 01:07:03,245 --> 01:07:05,725 Speaker 1: I would love to talk to you. All of our 1208 01:07:05,765 --> 01:07:06,245 Speaker 1: lives have. 1209 01:07:06,245 --> 01:07:11,205 Speaker 3: Been irreparably changed by what happened, and I think maybe 1210 01:07:11,205 --> 01:07:12,165 Speaker 3: we could heal together. 1211 01:07:13,165 --> 01:07:17,165 Speaker 2: Amanda Knox, I really thank you for sharing yourself with 1212 01:07:17,285 --> 01:07:17,845 Speaker 2: us today. 1213 01:07:18,405 --> 01:07:18,805 Speaker 1: Thank you. 1214 01:07:23,405 --> 01:07:25,605 Speaker 2: Wow, what did I tell you? Generous? 1215 01:07:25,725 --> 01:07:25,925 Speaker 3: Right? 1216 01:07:27,005 --> 01:07:30,845 Speaker 2: It really strikes me that to be open to retelling 1217 01:07:30,885 --> 01:07:33,885 Speaker 2: the story of the worst thing that ever happened to 1218 01:07:33,925 --> 01:07:37,925 Speaker 2: you so many years later is only really bearable when 1219 01:07:37,965 --> 01:07:42,085 Speaker 2: you're so connected to your greater purpose, which for Amanda 1220 01:07:42,245 --> 01:07:46,445 Speaker 2: is her advocacy for wrongfully convicted people. She has and 1221 01:07:46,765 --> 01:07:50,405 Speaker 2: is making meaning from a tragedy that defined her for 1222 01:07:50,445 --> 01:07:54,365 Speaker 2: so long and actually still continues to. I told Amanda 1223 01:07:54,405 --> 01:07:57,165 Speaker 2: that I had read both her memoirs, which I have. 1224 01:07:57,365 --> 01:07:59,365 Speaker 2: That sounds like I just told her that and I haven't, 1225 01:07:59,365 --> 01:08:02,965 Speaker 2: but I have read them and they're both so good. 1226 01:08:03,765 --> 01:08:06,365 Speaker 2: Her first one from twenty thirteen, Waiting to be Heard, 1227 01:08:07,125 --> 01:08:10,005 Speaker 2: is from a very different time in her life. New one, 1228 01:08:10,045 --> 01:08:14,085 Speaker 2: which is just out now Free, is a remarkable reflection 1229 01:08:14,205 --> 01:08:18,085 Speaker 2: on not just what she experienced, but where she goes from. 1230 01:08:18,125 --> 01:08:20,845 Speaker 2: Here will pop links in the show notes to where 1231 01:08:20,885 --> 01:08:23,365 Speaker 2: you can follow her work and buy her books. She 1232 01:08:23,445 --> 01:08:27,445 Speaker 2: also hosts her own podcast, Labyrinth with her husband, and 1233 01:08:27,485 --> 01:08:30,445 Speaker 2: we'll link to that too. The executive producer of No 1234 01:08:30,565 --> 01:08:35,005 Speaker 2: Filter Isnaima Brown. Senior producer is Grace Rufrey. Sound designed 1235 01:08:35,005 --> 01:08:38,685 Speaker 2: by Jacob Brown. I'm your host, Kate lane Brook Back 1236 01:08:38,685 --> 01:08:39,805 Speaker 2: in your ears next week.