WEBVTT - "Hold On, I Just Need To Vent" 0:00:08.234 --> 0:00:10.914 You're listening to I'm Ama Mia podcast. 0:00:15.914 --> 0:00:17.954 Hello and welcome. 0:00:17.674 --> 0:00:20.834 To what women are actually talking about on Monday Friday. 0:00:20.914 --> 0:00:22.553 So I forgot to say the name of Saturday. 0:00:23.754 --> 0:00:27.794 I think maybe this is a Friday problem. Hello, and 0:00:27.914 --> 0:00:30.674 welcome to Mom and Mia out loud. It's what women 0:00:30.674 --> 0:00:33.354 are actually talking about on Friday, the twenty third of 0:00:33.434 --> 0:00:35.514 February January. 0:00:35.513 --> 0:00:40.033 Wow, can we go home now? I'm done? 0:00:40.873 --> 0:00:45.673 What's wrong with me? It's been a week. I've all distracted. Anyway, 0:00:45.793 --> 0:00:48.514 I'm Holly way By. I got that bit allegedly. 0:00:48.754 --> 0:00:52.074 Allegedly, I'm and I'm Jesse Stevens. 0:00:52.434 --> 0:00:55.234 And here's what's on our agenda for today for our 0:00:55.314 --> 0:01:01.354 Friday show. Maybe you've recovered from watching Heated Rivalry. Maybe 0:01:01.354 --> 0:01:04.754 you're about to dive in whatever. It's a global phenom. 0:01:04.954 --> 0:01:07.154 It has been now for a good month or so. 0:01:07.394 --> 0:01:11.194 And em has a theory about why straight women are 0:01:11.354 --> 0:01:13.234 obsessed with queer romance. 0:01:13.314 --> 0:01:16.154 And if you haven't watched it, I'm here and hold 0:01:16.274 --> 0:01:16.634 your hand. 0:01:16.674 --> 0:01:18.074 You don't need to have watched it. 0:01:18.194 --> 0:01:20.354 You definitely don't need to have watched it because it's 0:01:20.474 --> 0:01:22.794 bigger than those two hockey players. 0:01:23.514 --> 0:01:26.594 Plus there are new way friends are hanging out now. 0:01:26.914 --> 0:01:30.514 It doesn't involve wine. It does involve the taxes. 0:01:31.274 --> 0:01:35.314 It can it always can sound moveing and am I 0:01:35.514 --> 0:01:38.314 venting too much? The answer is definitely. But does that 0:01:38.354 --> 0:01:41.834 make me a bad friend because according to some experts, yes, yes. 0:01:42.794 --> 0:01:46.354 But first, in case you missed it, two besties named 0:01:46.354 --> 0:01:49.954 Matt Damon and Beneffleck might have heard of them. I'm 0:01:50.034 --> 0:01:52.914 loving seeing them on the press sir as a bring 0:01:52.994 --> 0:01:58.354 back memories. It doesn't also like individually they both can 0:01:58.394 --> 0:02:03.794 be a little gen X problematic e but together they're unstoppable. 0:02:03.914 --> 0:02:06.874 No, Matt Damon has a free pass for me. They're 0:02:06.914 --> 0:02:10.034 so clever and they're so wise, and they're so good 0:02:10.073 --> 0:02:12.794 at what they do. They're true artists. They've made some 0:02:12.834 --> 0:02:13.514 great stuff. 0:02:13.633 --> 0:02:17.154 I think that every time Ben marries j Lo, he's 0:02:17.234 --> 0:02:19.194 just gone through a period where him and Matt didn't 0:02:19.234 --> 0:02:19.913 talk very much. 0:02:20.034 --> 0:02:20.194 Yeah. 0:02:20.274 --> 0:02:23.674 Yeah, and you know Matt's just like Ben. Yeah, and 0:02:23.674 --> 0:02:25.953 then a picture like consoling j Loo at the back 0:02:25.994 --> 0:02:26.994 of like some truck. 0:02:27.234 --> 0:02:29.594 Yes, Matt is very very good for Ben. And I 0:02:29.594 --> 0:02:32.834 feel like Matt's wife is a bit every time Ben's 0:02:32.914 --> 0:02:34.754 name comes up, she's like, here we go again, Here 0:02:34.754 --> 0:02:34.954 we go. 0:02:34.994 --> 0:02:39.034 Again anyway. Sorry, when we digressed pretty hard there on, 0:02:39.114 --> 0:02:41.154 Mat and Ben did we we did? We did. 0:02:41.194 --> 0:02:43.754 But they've released because I feel like they love doing 0:02:43.754 --> 0:02:44.314 stuff together. 0:02:44.634 --> 0:02:45.234 Yes, we know. 0:02:45.474 --> 0:02:47.674 They released a new movie called The Rip. It is 0:02:47.714 --> 0:02:49.913 currently on Netflix, and they've been doing a bit of 0:02:49.954 --> 0:02:53.834 a press tour. They recently went on Joe Rogan's podcast 0:02:53.994 --> 0:02:55.554 and they were talking about. 0:02:55.354 --> 0:02:58.474 See what I mean about slightly gen X problematic? 0:02:58.554 --> 0:03:00.434 He sometimes did they both go on or was it 0:03:00.514 --> 0:03:00.874 just Matt? 0:03:01.034 --> 0:03:02.514 It was just Matt, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, 0:03:02.594 --> 0:03:04.074 it was Ben, both of them, both of them. 0:03:03.994 --> 0:03:06.674 Really okay, yes, yes, yes, I would like to listen 0:03:06.714 --> 0:03:07.114 to that. 0:03:08.554 --> 0:03:12.274 If you've got to spare four hours anyway. Anyway, so they. 0:03:12.194 --> 0:03:15.353 Were talking regardless of let's pretend Joe Rogans okay, okay, 0:03:15.394 --> 0:03:16.274 it's just the two of them. 0:03:16.554 --> 0:03:17.754 He's there like us. 0:03:19.394 --> 0:03:22.914 Matt was talking about how releasing a movie on streaming 0:03:22.954 --> 0:03:25.714 services like Netflix is very different to releasing movies and 0:03:25.834 --> 0:03:29.074 cinemas now, and it's all about attention. He was saying 0:03:29.114 --> 0:03:32.154 that there are some behind the scenes conversations that happen 0:03:32.234 --> 0:03:35.514 with streaming services where they asked to do a big 0:03:35.594 --> 0:03:38.514 act in the beginning of a movie. To capture people's 0:03:38.514 --> 0:03:40.554 attention straight away, where usually they'll. 0:03:40.314 --> 0:03:41.874 Do it a bit later in the movie. 0:03:42.034 --> 0:03:44.634 And they've also been asked to include in the dialogue 0:03:44.994 --> 0:03:48.154 talk about the plot points within the dialogue three to 0:03:48.234 --> 0:03:51.154 four times throughout the whole movie to account for people 0:03:51.194 --> 0:03:52.994 who look at their phones while watching. 0:03:53.154 --> 0:03:54.194 So like a little recap. 0:03:54.354 --> 0:03:57.594 Yeah, so reality TV has always done this right, Like 0:03:57.674 --> 0:04:00.034 the thing that means I cannot watch it is I'll 0:04:00.074 --> 0:04:02.194 be watching the Kardashians or whatever, and it'll be like 0:04:02.234 --> 0:04:04.794 this happens, and then it'll be after the break, this 0:04:04.874 --> 0:04:06.434 is gonna happen, and then it come back after the breaking, 0:04:06.434 --> 0:04:08.234 it's like this happened, and that's going to happen. 0:04:08.394 --> 0:04:10.474 But like they're constant and then it gives you a flashback. 0:04:10.514 --> 0:04:13.394 It references anything. There is no assumed knowledge at any 0:04:13.394 --> 0:04:14.114 point in time, and. 0:04:14.074 --> 0:04:19.513 It's constant orienting the audience all the time. And now 0:04:19.594 --> 0:04:21.234 drama does it too, exactly. 0:04:21.354 --> 0:04:23.753 So what I'm assuming happens is like I haven't watched 0:04:23.753 --> 0:04:26.393 the rip, don't know anything about it, but I'm assuming 0:04:26.433 --> 0:04:29.313 it's like Matt and Ben, and Ben's like, Matt, we 0:04:29.393 --> 0:04:31.794 have to go save my family. And then like there's 0:04:31.834 --> 0:04:34.553 twenty minutes, and then Matt's like, don't forget Ben, we 0:04:34.674 --> 0:04:36.873 have to save your family. And then that happens another 0:04:36.873 --> 0:04:38.113 three or four times. 0:04:37.993 --> 0:04:42.514 Exactly, and then Ben is crying subtly. But then Matt 0:04:42.594 --> 0:04:45.513 has to be like, Ben, are you crying? Like he 0:04:45.594 --> 0:04:48.394 has to sign post that and just let everyone on 0:04:48.474 --> 0:04:49.033 the phone. 0:04:48.873 --> 0:04:50.474 If he's crying, And then we're like, wait, he's crying. 0:04:50.513 --> 0:04:51.633 He's crying. That's interesting. 0:04:51.674 --> 0:04:54.034 It's like that plot narrative about Chekhov's gone. If there's 0:04:54.034 --> 0:04:55.553 a gun in a show, you know that at some 0:04:55.594 --> 0:04:57.914 point the gun's going to be used, and so you're like, 0:04:57.953 --> 0:04:59.593 you've got a clue in your head off, but remember 0:04:59.633 --> 0:05:02.513 there's that gun. But in this version of that, every 0:05:02.553 --> 0:05:04.113 five minutes someone has to say, but. 0:05:04.113 --> 0:05:05.033 Remember the gun. 0:05:05.433 --> 0:05:08.753 Yeah, it's because of second screens. 0:05:08.433 --> 0:05:08.993 Right exactly. 0:05:09.034 --> 0:05:11.753 And to that, I say, make movies more interesting. 0:05:11.834 --> 0:05:15.154 Yes, well, I find this thing about so it used 0:05:15.154 --> 0:05:19.074 to be the drama had to happen about fifteen minutes 0:05:19.073 --> 0:05:22.273 in right, or we know that. In novels, the rule 0:05:22.553 --> 0:05:24.354 is they call it the sort of the end of 0:05:24.393 --> 0:05:26.914 the beginning, the end of the first third. They go, 0:05:27.034 --> 0:05:30.073 make the drama happen. Has been the conventional thinking. But 0:05:30.234 --> 0:05:33.273 our attention spans are so shot, and there are so 0:05:33.393 --> 0:05:35.353 many other books you can pick up, so many TV 0:05:35.393 --> 0:05:37.194 shows you could watch. There's a TikTok that will give 0:05:37.193 --> 0:05:41.354 you some entertainment in twelve seconds. That now, a lot 0:05:41.393 --> 0:05:44.113 of the advice is, and a lot of the notes 0:05:44.154 --> 0:05:47.513 that people get is it needs to be immediate. That 0:05:47.714 --> 0:05:51.313 first scene needs to get you. So you think about 0:05:51.433 --> 0:05:53.993 like your dead bodies at the beginning, Yes, what that 0:05:54.073 --> 0:05:57.433 costs you? So the example, I remember doing a course 0:05:57.474 --> 0:06:01.513 about it and the Exorcist, great great movie. There's a 0:06:01.594 --> 0:06:05.874 device called various similitude, which is where you establish who 0:06:05.873 --> 0:06:08.873 the characters are and the ordinariness of their lives, and 0:06:08.953 --> 0:06:11.193 it makes everyone feel like that can't be me. That 0:06:11.234 --> 0:06:13.674 could be Oh, yes, we're just going to school, We're 0:06:13.714 --> 0:06:17.194 just hanging out with mum, having some dinner, and then boom, 0:06:17.234 --> 0:06:19.234 you put the drama in and suddenly she's possessed by 0:06:19.274 --> 0:06:23.313 the devil and you're way more invested. But how many 0:06:23.393 --> 0:06:26.073 times do we all sit down now and go, I'm 0:06:26.073 --> 0:06:28.954 going to give this five minutes, and if I'm not in, 0:06:29.313 --> 0:06:30.674 then I'm going to go and watch something else on 0:06:30.674 --> 0:06:30.993 my list. 0:06:31.113 --> 0:06:33.073 Look, it's sad that you've just brought up books about that, 0:06:33.193 --> 0:06:35.834 because when I was at a writing thing recently, they're saying, 0:06:35.834 --> 0:06:37.914 how that's why, and I've done this. I've done this 0:06:38.034 --> 0:06:41.314 in at least one book, maybe two. That's why prologues 0:06:41.354 --> 0:06:44.433 are so big now, right. The lazy explanation for what 0:06:44.513 --> 0:06:47.594 a prologue is is take the most interesting, action packed 0:06:47.594 --> 0:06:49.993 bit of the book, put it at the beginning, then 0:06:50.234 --> 0:06:53.074 go back to the beginning. If you know that that happens, 0:06:53.714 --> 0:06:57.954 you'll see it everywhere. And now TV is similar. We're 0:06:57.953 --> 0:06:59.713 going to talk about heated rivalry in a minute, but 0:07:00.034 --> 0:07:02.313 on the rest of his entertainment, Marina Hyde was saying, 0:07:02.354 --> 0:07:06.193 one of the reasons that show works so well for 0:07:06.393 --> 0:07:09.153 like a second screening audience and every kind of audience 0:07:09.554 --> 0:07:12.354 is that from the first shot, the first second of 0:07:12.393 --> 0:07:15.834 the first scene, you know exactly what it's about. There's 0:07:15.874 --> 0:07:18.194 no like, here's this guy going about his life like 0:07:18.274 --> 0:07:20.434 you say, Jesse, and here's this guy going about his 0:07:20.514 --> 0:07:22.874 life and maybe at some point they're going to bump 0:07:22.874 --> 0:07:25.153 into each other and chemistry, it's like, no. From the 0:07:25.674 --> 0:07:28.274 first shot is the two of them looking at each other, 0:07:28.314 --> 0:07:28.833 and it's. 0:07:28.674 --> 0:07:29.914 Like, oh, it's on. 0:07:30.274 --> 0:07:35.153 And interestingly, when they stay second screen, the second screen 0:07:35.194 --> 0:07:37.434 isn't your phone. Your phone is a first screen. So 0:07:37.554 --> 0:07:39.634 your phone is the first screen that you're looking at, 0:07:39.634 --> 0:07:42.834 that you're scrolling that you're apparently sixty to ninety percent 0:07:42.874 --> 0:07:45.273 of viewers they know are doing it. In which case 0:07:45.634 --> 0:07:49.033 that Netflix show that maybe wants to be prestige or 0:07:49.074 --> 0:07:53.794 wants to present some compelling, nuanced ideas, that needs to 0:07:53.874 --> 0:07:56.473 accept its position as a second screen or not. 0:07:56.794 --> 0:07:58.754 I think this is a tale of two different kinds 0:07:58.754 --> 0:08:01.713 of stories, right, because the flip side of this is 0:08:01.714 --> 0:08:04.194 a show like Stranger Things, which has obsessed the world 0:08:04.274 --> 0:08:07.593 for the summer before the hockey players came away. Actually 0:08:07.594 --> 0:08:12.354 with their bugs is the opposite, Right. It's got so 0:08:12.754 --> 0:08:16.514 much plot, and it's complicated plot, and it's weird plot, 0:08:16.554 --> 0:08:18.994 and there's law, and there's fifteen different levels, and it 0:08:19.034 --> 0:08:22.794 allows the audience to get fully invested and become obsessed 0:08:22.794 --> 0:08:24.754 with theories and share their fan theories forever. 0:08:24.754 --> 0:08:26.194 There are lots of shows like that, right. 0:08:26.234 --> 0:08:28.714 Ben gave the example of adolescents on Netflix as well. 0:08:28.714 --> 0:08:29.394 It doesn't do that. 0:08:29.514 --> 0:08:32.314 Yes, well that's very different too, and that's a different 0:08:32.394 --> 0:08:35.353 kind of prestige. It's kind of like TV's either one 0:08:35.394 --> 0:08:38.274 of two things. It's either very simplistic, tell me the 0:08:38.274 --> 0:08:40.994 plot five times, or it's this is a mystery for 0:08:41.034 --> 0:08:42.954 you to solve and have twenty five theory with your 0:08:42.994 --> 0:08:46.314 friends about and make millions of tiktoks about and this 0:08:46.434 --> 0:08:48.754 thing and that thing and maybe that happened. And it's 0:08:48.834 --> 0:08:51.914 kind of like, choose your adventure of those two things. 0:08:52.234 --> 0:08:54.474 Does that make us lazier? Though? Although I must say 0:08:54.474 --> 0:08:57.914 when I was watching Severance, I definitely had phone down. 0:08:58.154 --> 0:09:00.874 I don't second screen if it's something I've chosen to watch. 0:09:01.434 --> 0:09:03.794 I really try not to and I need to have 0:09:03.874 --> 0:09:05.953 my phone in another room like I can't have it in. 0:09:06.034 --> 0:09:08.074 But does that like your problem or is it the 0:09:08.074 --> 0:09:10.354 people who are making the movies problem? Because I say 0:09:10.434 --> 0:09:12.594 I shouldn't feel like I need to touch my phone, 0:09:12.594 --> 0:09:15.314 Like when I watched Sinners, for example, I forgot my 0:09:15.394 --> 0:09:16.474 phone even existed. 0:09:16.714 --> 0:09:17.314 I don't know. 0:09:17.474 --> 0:09:21.674 I think the show can be so brilliant, but if 0:09:21.754 --> 0:09:24.114 we have access to a phone, if we can touch it, 0:09:24.154 --> 0:09:28.234 whether it's notification, whatever, we also don't have any tolerance 0:09:28.234 --> 0:09:30.674 for not understanding something. So if it's a reference to 0:09:31.314 --> 0:09:33.834 or we go where's the active from? And then someone 0:09:33.834 --> 0:09:36.074 goes looks it up or whatever. Then you're lost. 0:09:36.274 --> 0:09:38.634 It's the accessory to the show. You're like, I've got 0:09:38.674 --> 0:09:39.234 to google that. 0:09:39.394 --> 0:09:39.994 What big is? 0:09:40.154 --> 0:09:47.194 Where is Greenland so interesting? So we're staying on TV 0:09:47.434 --> 0:09:49.634 for a minute. It took me a moment to get 0:09:49.634 --> 0:09:52.314 onto Heated Rivalry, And as Jesse says, if you're not 0:09:52.394 --> 0:09:54.314 on the bandwagon, if you're sick of hearing about it, 0:09:54.354 --> 0:09:56.074 don't worry because that's not really what. 0:09:56.074 --> 0:09:58.794 We're talking about. And if you are obsessed. 0:09:58.994 --> 0:10:01.114 Emma and I did a subs episode last week Yes 0:10:01.114 --> 0:10:04.394 with Mia where they in particular explained a lot of 0:10:04.394 --> 0:10:06.514 the behind the scenes stuff to me and all that stuff, 0:10:06.554 --> 0:10:08.834 that's not really what we're talking about. This is about 0:10:08.874 --> 0:10:12.154 something a bit broader. In that subset, em brought something 0:10:12.234 --> 0:10:14.234 up to me that now I'm seeing everywhere. You're very 0:10:14.474 --> 0:10:18.354 very it's just very clever our Urnham. It's not just 0:10:18.514 --> 0:10:20.914 about Heated Rivalry. But just to give you an idea 0:10:20.914 --> 0:10:23.314 of the scale of the phenomen of that show, it 0:10:23.394 --> 0:10:25.954 was made pretty independent show, lots of If you watch 0:10:25.994 --> 0:10:28.274 the credits at the end, there's like a million different 0:10:28.314 --> 0:10:31.994 Canadian film companies involved. They didn't know it was going 0:10:32.074 --> 0:10:34.594 to be so huge. It's a very low budget, and 0:10:34.634 --> 0:10:36.394 they should have known it was going to be so 0:10:36.594 --> 0:10:40.194 huge because it's based on a very successful book series, 0:10:40.234 --> 0:10:42.954 and that book series is part of a whole genre 0:10:43.474 --> 0:10:48.474 of queer tilting romance that is very squarely marketed at 0:10:48.474 --> 0:10:51.674 and consumed by straight women, young women. Book Talks got 0:10:51.674 --> 0:10:53.554 a lot to do with this, but also older women. 0:10:53.874 --> 0:10:56.394 We talked on the show about romance genres of last 0:10:56.474 --> 0:10:58.954 year and how that's a genre of publishing that's still 0:10:58.954 --> 0:11:02.914 going crazy. And this is a very established, like male 0:11:02.994 --> 0:11:06.034 to male, queer stories being consumed by straight women are 0:11:06.034 --> 0:11:09.634 a very big and well known phenomena. Apparently about eighty 0:11:09.674 --> 0:11:11.514 percent of the people who buy those books are women, 0:11:12.074 --> 0:11:16.194 and of that eighty sixty percent of them identify as straight, 0:11:16.554 --> 0:11:19.434 with the others identifying as like queerbye gay. But there's 0:11:19.474 --> 0:11:24.234 a very clear marketing push towards straight women on these books. 0:11:24.714 --> 0:11:27.474 So one of the things that's really interesting. 0:11:27.034 --> 0:11:30.434 About this is that why is that? And there's a good. 0:11:30.314 --> 0:11:34.234 Theory which m brought up, which is that watching two men, 0:11:34.354 --> 0:11:37.114 if you're a straight woman, watching two men fall in 0:11:37.154 --> 0:11:41.674 love have a messy relationship, have some sex, break up, 0:11:41.754 --> 0:11:45.674 get back together, whatever is freeing because you have a 0:11:45.714 --> 0:11:48.154 holiday from putting yourself in the story. 0:11:48.194 --> 0:11:50.274 That's what you said, right, Yeah, I feel like when 0:11:50.274 --> 0:11:54.874 we watch like romance movies or TV shows and it's 0:11:55.594 --> 0:11:59.874 a man and a woman, you automatically insert yourself in 0:11:59.914 --> 0:12:02.634 the women's shoes and you firstly nitpick her. You're like, oh, 0:12:02.714 --> 0:12:04.594 she's such a pick me. She wouldn't do this, Why 0:12:04.674 --> 0:12:06.194 is she doing this? Why is she wearing Why is 0:12:06.234 --> 0:12:08.514 she wearing that? When you put yourself in her shoes 0:12:08.514 --> 0:12:11.394 in another way by going oh, she shouldn't accept that. 0:12:11.434 --> 0:12:13.074 For him, why is she doing that? Why is she 0:12:13.114 --> 0:12:15.434 sending him nudes? What's going on? And then when I 0:12:15.474 --> 0:12:18.874 watched Heated Rivalry, I didn't feel any of that because 0:12:18.994 --> 0:12:22.034 my self couldn't be in that physically, So I was 0:12:22.034 --> 0:12:24.394 just sitting back and going, this is just such a 0:12:24.514 --> 0:12:25.154 nice show. 0:12:25.514 --> 0:12:28.274 A name for it, yeah, Oh, it's called Escaping the 0:12:28.354 --> 0:12:29.274 heroin Bird. 0:12:30.114 --> 0:12:31.034 I love that. 0:12:31.114 --> 0:12:34.394 So there's a whole established theory about this, because, as 0:12:34.434 --> 0:12:37.474 you say, is that a certain amount of baggage comes 0:12:37.754 --> 0:12:42.194 with watching a straight relationship, especially now when dating is 0:12:42.274 --> 0:12:44.914 really complicated and the politics of dating is very front 0:12:44.914 --> 0:12:48.074 and center. A classic example of this might be, for example, 0:12:48.074 --> 0:12:51.394 if you have been watching Heated Rivalry. In the second episode, 0:12:52.114 --> 0:12:55.834 the hot Russian basically treats the other guy in a 0:12:55.874 --> 0:12:57.834 way that if that was a woman, we would not 0:12:57.954 --> 0:13:01.154 accept it. He ghosts him, he nags him, you know, he's 0:13:01.354 --> 0:13:03.234 kind of dismissive and rude to him. 0:13:03.314 --> 0:13:05.234 He has sex with him and not even kiss him. 0:13:05.114 --> 0:13:07.794 And tells him to get out straight afterwards, and those things. 0:13:08.314 --> 0:13:12.834 If that was a male female romance on mainstream TV, 0:13:13.354 --> 0:13:16.194 we would be like, the culture would be like, get out, girl, 0:13:16.354 --> 0:13:18.474 you deserve better than that. And I don't know that 0:13:18.594 --> 0:13:21.634 now we would accept that as an obstacle to true 0:13:21.714 --> 0:13:23.714 love in a way that is presented here. 0:13:23.914 --> 0:13:27.194 Yeah, I think that the dynamics are different, not that 0:13:27.194 --> 0:13:30.154 that's not problematic or not that power doesn't exist in 0:13:30.314 --> 0:13:34.074 queer love stories, because it does, but the traditional gender 0:13:34.154 --> 0:13:39.554 dynamics that we project don't exist so much. And whether 0:13:39.594 --> 0:13:45.914 it's movies or television or books, when there's a heterosexual 0:13:46.354 --> 0:13:49.154 a man a woman who are having sex, there's generally 0:13:49.194 --> 0:13:52.834 speaking a subject and an object, and the woman is 0:13:53.274 --> 0:13:55.914 nearly always the object. Even the way that she's filmed. 0:13:56.394 --> 0:13:58.434 There is this Do you think that's still true with 0:13:58.474 --> 0:14:01.074 all the female gayzy sex stuff we watch these days 0:14:01.074 --> 0:14:02.794 that you're Bridgeton's. 0:14:02.314 --> 0:14:05.674 And I think it's so firmly entrenched that ninety five 0:14:05.714 --> 0:14:08.274 percent of the time that's what it is. And then 0:14:08.314 --> 0:14:12.394 I also think it's so socialized that women do it automatically. 0:14:12.514 --> 0:14:15.954 So there's this phenomenon that's been written lots about where 0:14:16.394 --> 0:14:18.594 women in real life who are having sex almost watch 0:14:18.674 --> 0:14:21.794 themselves from above, and they watch what they look like 0:14:21.954 --> 0:14:25.314 and how they sound, and that's how they've internalized how 0:14:25.314 --> 0:14:27.674 sex should be. That it's something that's acted upon them 0:14:28.114 --> 0:14:32.514 by a man. He is the subject. It's all about 0:14:32.554 --> 0:14:36.194 his pleasure, and she is the object in it, like performing, Yeah, 0:14:36.234 --> 0:14:39.354 exactly performing. And this is why I remember writing something 0:14:39.474 --> 0:14:42.634 years ago about all this data came out of Pornhub 0:14:42.714 --> 0:14:48.474 or something about man on men sex and lesbian porn, 0:14:48.714 --> 0:14:53.234 like and how it was consumed overwhelmingly by straight women. 0:14:53.394 --> 0:14:57.954 Why do so many straight women watch gay porn and 0:14:58.034 --> 0:15:00.994 lesbian porn? So why is it that they're not watching 0:15:01.034 --> 0:15:04.954 porn that would reflect their lived experience. They're actually trying 0:15:04.954 --> 0:15:08.114 to seek out something that's different to what they and 0:15:08.434 --> 0:15:10.354 part of it might be that it's a fantasy, or 0:15:10.394 --> 0:15:14.154 part of it might be by curiosity or whatever it is. 0:15:14.634 --> 0:15:18.354 But a lot of the studies actually found firstly, they 0:15:18.394 --> 0:15:21.354 don't and I think that we've we've probably all seen 0:15:21.354 --> 0:15:24.274 this in television or whatever where you go all that 0:15:24.314 --> 0:15:26.994 looks like it hurts. I've had an experience like that 0:15:27.154 --> 0:15:30.114 and it's making me feel really uncomfortable or whatever. This 0:15:30.314 --> 0:15:34.394 is just more simply about pleasure in a way that 0:15:34.594 --> 0:15:36.794 women find very liberating. I think. 0:15:36.794 --> 0:15:37.554 I think that's true. 0:15:37.554 --> 0:15:40.394 But I also think it's beyond the sex, like I 0:15:40.434 --> 0:15:42.754 think in Heated Rivalry, even though it's very famous for 0:15:42.794 --> 0:15:46.914 its sex scenes, I think it's also about the relationship dynamics. 0:15:47.154 --> 0:15:48.874 And you're right, Jesse, in what you just pointed out, 0:15:48.914 --> 0:15:53.994 there's definitely something difficult here about the idea that in 0:15:54.074 --> 0:15:56.954 some ways, and there's lots of commentary out there about this, 0:15:57.314 --> 0:16:00.394 that in some ways this kind of objectifies or patronizes 0:16:00.834 --> 0:16:05.034 gay relationships, simplifies them them and also that straight women 0:16:05.394 --> 0:16:08.194 or straight seeming women who are actually writing these books 0:16:08.194 --> 0:16:10.674 and everything, like hmm, just a little bit of you know, 0:16:11.034 --> 0:16:14.114 controversy there about them hovering up all those dollars. But 0:16:14.514 --> 0:16:17.514 also I think that it's beyond the sex. I think 0:16:17.554 --> 0:16:21.314 it's about the romance. Like we know how complicated dating 0:16:21.474 --> 0:16:24.074 is and the politics of dating are now, and we 0:16:24.354 --> 0:16:28.714 always over always over relate to female protagonists. I mean 0:16:29.034 --> 0:16:31.354 as a writer, I know this. One of my books 0:16:31.354 --> 0:16:34.354 in particular, like the female protagonists got so much shit 0:16:34.394 --> 0:16:37.074 from other women through me, like say, but she does this, 0:16:37.114 --> 0:16:38.794 and she does that, and she shouldn't have done that, 0:16:38.834 --> 0:16:41.834 and she cheated and she shouldn't have cheated, and that. 0:16:41.874 --> 0:16:45.754 We just don't put on male protagonists, or we do 0:16:45.794 --> 0:16:47.914 it differently. And it's funny because as you get older, 0:16:47.954 --> 0:16:50.514 like I don't relate to when I see young hot 0:16:50.554 --> 0:16:53.474 people having sex, I don't or falling in love, I'm 0:16:53.514 --> 0:16:56.674 not really relating because now that's like apples and oranges 0:16:56.714 --> 0:16:59.674 in a way. But I think that it's very hard 0:16:59.874 --> 0:17:02.074 not to when you're in that world. 0:17:02.194 --> 0:17:05.634 But also when we're looking at romance novels and movies 0:17:05.674 --> 0:17:09.033 about men and women, and I think the author and 0:17:09.194 --> 0:17:13.114 the film creator automatically want you to relate to the 0:17:13.154 --> 0:17:15.514 woman because that's who they're marketing towards. 0:17:15.874 --> 0:17:16.994 And then they're trying to. 0:17:16.954 --> 0:17:19.274 Make the guy in it to be the most appealing 0:17:19.314 --> 0:17:21.354 guy ever. Like when we talk about Emily Henry and 0:17:21.394 --> 0:17:25.594 her books, like she uses the most best man that 0:17:25.634 --> 0:17:27.674 you could ever dream of, because like you want that 0:17:27.834 --> 0:17:29.114 character to get with him, and. 0:17:29.114 --> 0:17:32.234 Think about the discourse around Nobody wants this a massive 0:17:32.314 --> 0:17:37.594 smash exactly where everybody's like, great, non toxic relationship, wonderful boyfriend, 0:17:37.674 --> 0:17:39.553 he does all the things right, he calls her, he 0:17:39.594 --> 0:17:41.354 does all the things, and that's all great, but it's 0:17:41.354 --> 0:17:43.194 not obstacles in a sexy romance. 0:17:43.274 --> 0:17:45.794 Yes, and because there's still two of them and they're 0:17:45.794 --> 0:17:48.554 both the main characters, the woman is always a bit 0:17:48.634 --> 0:17:51.994 more of the main character. Wasn't heated rivalry. You're still 0:17:52.034 --> 0:17:54.674 appealing to women, but you have two men, so you're 0:17:54.714 --> 0:17:57.714 allowing them to both be main characters in their own right. 0:17:57.794 --> 0:18:00.273 So you're able to follow both of their storylines as 0:18:00.354 --> 0:18:02.634 independent people while they're also together. 0:18:03.034 --> 0:18:08.074 And it's not overlaid with complicated feminist politics, the idea 0:18:08.194 --> 0:18:11.434 that we're so sensitive to a woman who's desperate to 0:18:11.474 --> 0:18:14.714 find love or like acts in a way that's like 0:18:14.834 --> 0:18:17.754 damsel in distress. There are all these tropes that have 0:18:17.794 --> 0:18:23.474 been overused in cliches and there's just something so fresh 0:18:23.874 --> 0:18:28.593 about having this on screen where you can put all 0:18:28.594 --> 0:18:30.434 of that aside and just take your hat off. 0:18:30.474 --> 0:18:31.434 He can leave it at the door. 0:18:31.514 --> 0:18:35.034 Yeah, because in this story Ilia the Russian hockey player, 0:18:35.074 --> 0:18:40.273 he is a textbook bad boy really, like he's unavailable, serious, 0:18:40.834 --> 0:18:43.674 he's all the things that a textbook bad boy hero 0:18:43.834 --> 0:18:48.074 would be in a traditional romance. But somehow that has 0:18:48.194 --> 0:18:50.554 very much fallen out of favor. God knows what people 0:18:50.594 --> 0:18:52.513 are going to think about Wuthering Heights with that, with 0:18:52.554 --> 0:18:54.794 that in mine, but that has very much fallen out 0:18:54.834 --> 0:18:57.394 of favor now, and this kind of just allows you 0:18:57.474 --> 0:18:57.794 to go. 0:18:58.394 --> 0:18:59.114 Ah. 0:18:59.194 --> 0:19:01.194 One of the reasons I think that women over relate 0:19:01.274 --> 0:19:03.274 so much to characters and get so upset with them, 0:19:03.434 --> 0:19:04.474 Like can't just let them live? 0:19:04.554 --> 0:19:05.073 Do you know what I mean? 0:19:05.194 --> 0:19:07.554 Just can't let your character just do whatever is because 0:19:07.554 --> 0:19:09.513 we're never allowed to you know what I mean, Like, 0:19:09.594 --> 0:19:12.313 we're not allowed to just live and do whatever without judgment. 0:19:12.354 --> 0:19:14.833