WEBVTT - Will The Menendez Brothers Be Released From Prison? 0:00:11.542 --> 0:00:16.302 You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the 0:00:16.342 --> 0:00:20.182 traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was recorded 0:00:20.182 --> 0:00:30.622 on it's August nineteen eighty nine, and a nine to 0:00:30.622 --> 0:00:32.982 one to one call comes through from a Beverly Hills 0:00:33.022 --> 0:00:37.702 mansion on ELM Drive just before midnight. The caller is 0:00:37.742 --> 0:00:42.142 twenty one year old Lyle Menendez and he's hysterical. You 0:00:42.142 --> 0:00:44.422 can hear his eighteen year old brother Eric in the 0:00:44.422 --> 0:00:46.102 background also crying. 0:00:49.742 --> 0:00:54.942 When he shot right start he shot. 0:00:54.982 --> 0:01:00.142 What happened? The brother's parents, Jose and Kitty, are dead, 0:01:00.742 --> 0:01:04.742 shot a combined sixteen times at close range while in 0:01:04.782 --> 0:01:10.702 their TV room. The crime scene is horrific. The bodies 0:01:10.782 --> 0:01:15.302 are severely maimed and there's blood everywhere. Detectives quickly notice 0:01:15.302 --> 0:01:18.822 there's no shells. Whoever shot them has picked them all 0:01:18.902 --> 0:01:23.222 up before fleeing. At first, they suspect a mafia or 0:01:23.302 --> 0:01:27.422 mob hit, but seven months later it's the brothers who 0:01:27.462 --> 0:01:30.742 are arrested for murder in a case that catapults them 0:01:30.742 --> 0:01:36.542 into worldwide infamy. Even thirty five years later, we're still 0:01:36.582 --> 0:01:41.062 talking about the Menendez brothers, their two high profile trials, 0:01:41.702 --> 0:01:51.342 and why they killed their parents. I'm Jemma Bass and 0:01:51.422 --> 0:01:54.742 this is True Crime Conversations, a Mum of Meer podcast 0:01:54.902 --> 0:01:58.542 exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the 0:01:58.582 --> 0:02:02.582 people who know the most about them. It took years 0:02:02.582 --> 0:02:05.542 for the brothers to start telling their side of the story, 0:02:06.142 --> 0:02:10.142 the true reason that led them to murder, the depraved family, 0:02:10.142 --> 0:02:14.542 sea secrets that haunted them their entire lives. This is 0:02:14.582 --> 0:02:17.702 a case that has divided public opinion since the moment 0:02:17.822 --> 0:02:21.822 they were arrested, and has regained fresh notoriety in twenty 0:02:21.862 --> 0:02:24.662 twenty four as a new wave of supporters demand their 0:02:24.662 --> 0:02:27.982 release from prison, and Netflix release is not one but 0:02:28.142 --> 0:02:31.822 two new deep dives into their story, a drama called 0:02:31.902 --> 0:02:36.862 Monsters and a documentary called The Menendez Brothers. Eric now 0:02:36.902 --> 0:02:40.862 fifty three and Lyle now fifty six, have been in 0:02:40.862 --> 0:02:45.982 prison for almost thirty five years. Robert Rand is an 0:02:45.982 --> 0:02:49.462 Emmy Award winning journalist who began covering the Menendez brothers 0:02:49.582 --> 0:02:52.302 case for the Miami Herald the day after the murders 0:02:52.342 --> 0:02:56.742 on August twenty one, nineteen eighty nine. He's been covering 0:02:56.742 --> 0:02:59.902 the case ever since and has a personal relationship with 0:02:59.942 --> 0:03:03.702 the brothers, speaking to them regularly. Days after our interview, 0:03:04.062 --> 0:03:08.582 an announcement Robert had been expecting was confirmed. The La 0:03:08.662 --> 0:03:12.222 County District Attorney has wrecked amended the brothers for re sentencing, 0:03:12.742 --> 0:03:15.222 and as he explains in our chat, that's just the 0:03:15.262 --> 0:03:18.262 first of a number of hurdles they face if they'd 0:03:18.302 --> 0:03:24.342 ever walk free from prison. Robert joins us. Now, Robert 0:03:24.382 --> 0:03:27.942 from the outside. Who were the Menendez family living on 0:03:27.982 --> 0:03:30.542 Elm Drive in Beverly Hills in the eighties. 0:03:31.542 --> 0:03:34.662 Well, the family of Jose and kideven Ands and their 0:03:34.702 --> 0:03:38.782 two sons, Eric Lyle were the American dream. JOSEM. Nunders 0:03:39.062 --> 0:03:42.942 was a entertainment exective making two million dollars a year 0:03:43.582 --> 0:03:47.942 Erica lyman Ands were nationally recked Tess players. Kitty was 0:03:48.062 --> 0:03:51.302 very involved in charity work on the outside looking in, 0:03:52.102 --> 0:03:56.102 This was who people dreamed of becoming in America. Behind 0:03:56.102 --> 0:04:00.022 the walls of that mansion, this was a highly dysfunctional 0:04:00.062 --> 0:04:02.862 family that were speating widely out of control. 0:04:03.102 --> 0:04:05.382 Let's hear a little bit more about Jose and Kitty 0:04:05.382 --> 0:04:08.942 and that kind of origin story. Obviously that were very rich. 0:04:09.102 --> 0:04:11.262 Where did all that wealth come film? How did their 0:04:11.342 --> 0:04:11.982 story stop? 0:04:12.142 --> 0:04:16.182 Actually, Jose and Kidding Menanda's were dirt poor when they met. 0:04:16.382 --> 0:04:21.422 Before Jose immigrated to the States, he was a country 0:04:21.462 --> 0:04:25.982 culbal lifestyle in Nevana, and overnight he was living in 0:04:26.022 --> 0:04:30.742 the attic of the home of distant relatives in northeastern Pennsylvania, 0:04:31.262 --> 0:04:34.062 and suddenly he had no money. So it was a 0:04:34.142 --> 0:04:37.142 very radical change for him to come in the States. 0:04:37.622 --> 0:04:40.582 His sister, march Cano told me when I met her 0:04:40.662 --> 0:04:44.382 ten days after the killings, and Jose wanted to run 0:04:44.422 --> 0:04:47.422 for the US Senate from Florida. He wanted to aus 0:04:47.502 --> 0:04:50.782 Castro from Cuba, the man who had taken away his 0:04:50.942 --> 0:04:54.262 country club lifestyle. The first day I met Jose's sister 0:04:54.302 --> 0:04:57.502 of marce Keno, we didn't talk at all about the 0:04:57.542 --> 0:05:00.982 American investigation. There were some months between the crime and 0:05:01.022 --> 0:05:04.022 the rest of Eric and Lyle Menendez, and so she 0:05:04.262 --> 0:05:08.582 spent four hours telling me the family history, which was 0:05:08.862 --> 0:05:12.102 extremely interesting, of how they started in Spain. They were 0:05:12.182 --> 0:05:15.422 dirt bored, they became very wealthy, and then they lost 0:05:15.462 --> 0:05:20.262 everything when Franco came into power. They immigrated to Cuba. 0:05:21.022 --> 0:05:24.142 In a period of years, they became very wealthy, and 0:05:24.222 --> 0:05:27.542 then they lost everything once again when Castro came into power. 0:05:27.982 --> 0:05:31.902 And then the family came to the States and they started, 0:05:31.942 --> 0:05:35.382 like many Kiven immigrants, with nothing, and they were tired. 0:05:35.782 --> 0:05:39.542 They became wealthy all over again. So the family story 0:05:39.862 --> 0:05:41.262 is really kind of interesting. 0:05:42.062 --> 0:05:45.662 How about Lyle and Eric, the obviously come from these 0:05:45.662 --> 0:05:49.942 two at the time very wealthy parents or wealthy family, 0:05:50.182 --> 0:05:54.942 the very attractive young men. What was their reputation before 0:05:54.982 --> 0:05:55.822 all of this happened. 0:05:56.342 --> 0:06:00.902 Well, I spent three days interviewing Eric and Lymnandez two 0:06:00.942 --> 0:06:04.582 months after the killing of their parents, five months before. 0:06:04.622 --> 0:06:08.422 They were a rustled and they weren't suspects publicly, and 0:06:08.662 --> 0:06:12.062 I had no reason to be suspicions of them, And 0:06:12.102 --> 0:06:16.502 they told me for several days, very loving, caring, emotional 0:06:16.542 --> 0:06:20.022 stories about how much they missed their parents. I had 0:06:20.102 --> 0:06:23.902 met them because of Jose's sister, march Cano, who lived 0:06:23.902 --> 0:06:27.262 in westbamb Beach, Florida, And I was writing for the 0:06:27.302 --> 0:06:32.262 Sunday magazine of the Miami Hera, and my assignment in 0:06:32.302 --> 0:06:34.742 the fall of eighty nine was not to write about 0:06:34.782 --> 0:06:39.262 the murder investigation, but to do a biography aboutse Menendez. 0:06:39.542 --> 0:06:42.462 Rag Serusia's story ends in a terrible. 0:06:42.222 --> 0:06:46.022 Tragedy In nineteen eighty eight. So about a year before 0:06:46.022 --> 0:06:48.462 the killings, the brothers were caught up in a series 0:06:48.462 --> 0:06:51.142 of burglaries. Can you talk us through that? What were 0:06:51.142 --> 0:06:53.462 they doing? Why were they stealing? They obviously came from 0:06:53.462 --> 0:06:54.222 a rich family. 0:06:54.622 --> 0:06:58.182 The birtlaries in Calabasas, which is also known as the 0:06:58.222 --> 0:07:02.902 home of the Kardashian family. Were Eric and Lyle doing 0:07:02.942 --> 0:07:07.622 burtlaries with close friends of theirs from Calabasas hide the 0:07:07.742 --> 0:07:11.662 victims were actually the parents some of the kids doing 0:07:11.662 --> 0:07:15.062 the burglaries, so that is how they just happened to 0:07:15.262 --> 0:07:18.942 know the combinations to safes. The fact that Eric de 0:07:18.982 --> 0:07:23.142 Lyle were involved in this group of wealthy kids who 0:07:23.222 --> 0:07:26.662 were known to be spoiled is part of who they were. 0:07:27.182 --> 0:07:31.782 They got involved in these burglaries and everything was settled. 0:07:32.302 --> 0:07:36.142 Jose Menendez hired one of the best criminal defense attourneys 0:07:36.542 --> 0:07:40.422 in La Basically, Eric Menandez took the fall for both 0:07:40.502 --> 0:07:44.622 brothers and was cut up as a juvenile in the 0:07:44.782 --> 0:07:49.702 juvenile court system, and so he was basically released with 0:07:50.022 --> 0:07:53.662 a slap on the risk and Jose promised that both 0:07:53.702 --> 0:07:59.062 brothers would seek counseling with doctor Jerome Mosil, who was 0:07:59.142 --> 0:08:03.622 a therapist that kiddyman and just knew about and that 0:08:03.782 --> 0:08:08.142 therapy initially included all four of them and his family members. 0:08:08.862 --> 0:08:12.142 And then Jose wan to make sure that they didn't 0:08:12.182 --> 0:08:17.662 reveal anything negative about the family, and so Jose had 0:08:17.702 --> 0:08:22.062 the therapists actually write a letter giving permission for the 0:08:22.062 --> 0:08:26.222 therapists to tell him everything that went on from therapy sessions. 0:08:26.822 --> 0:08:30.982 So Eric and Lyle were both asked to sign these waivers, 0:08:31.382 --> 0:08:33.422 and so there was no way that they were going 0:08:33.502 --> 0:08:36.342 to tell any of the secrets of the family. 0:08:37.182 --> 0:08:39.822 That is such a violation, isn't it doesn't that go 0:08:39.902 --> 0:08:41.942 against the whole idea of therapy. 0:08:43.422 --> 0:08:48.102 Of course, it's a horrible violation of therapy. The therapist, 0:08:48.262 --> 0:08:52.342 doctor Jeromo o'zel, was a star of prosecution witness in 0:08:52.382 --> 0:08:55.382 the first trial. The brothers were not going to say 0:08:55.422 --> 0:09:00.982 anything to him beyond the superficial account of the family 0:09:01.062 --> 0:09:04.142 and the burglaries, because they knew everything they said would 0:09:04.182 --> 0:09:07.462 be repeated to their father. And normally you have a 0:09:07.542 --> 0:09:10.942 privilege with a therapist thought point of therapy and see 0:09:11.142 --> 0:09:14.062 you are in a safe place and can go to 0:09:14.062 --> 0:09:18.742 a therapist and tell him your deepest seekers. But they 0:09:18.782 --> 0:09:19.382 knew they could. 0:09:20.342 --> 0:09:23.342 Let's talk about the crime itself. So it was August twenty, 0:09:23.462 --> 0:09:27.302 nineteen eighty nine. The brothers were eighteen and twenty one, 0:09:27.782 --> 0:09:32.262 and Lyle called nine one one really upset and reported 0:09:32.302 --> 0:09:35.462 his parents had been shot. What did police make of 0:09:35.782 --> 0:09:38.222 the crime scene, Because one of the parts that is 0:09:38.302 --> 0:09:41.542 dissected a lot is how gruesome the injuries were and 0:09:41.582 --> 0:09:44.582 how attacking the parents' faces they were. 0:09:45.702 --> 0:09:50.382 Well, shotguns are a terrible weapon to kill people with. 0:09:51.022 --> 0:09:54.662 I mean they do tremendous damage to a human body. 0:09:54.902 --> 0:09:58.342 So the crime scene was gruesome. I've seen all the 0:09:58.342 --> 0:10:02.782 auto se phoos. They're gruesome. There's a Beverly Hills police 0:10:02.942 --> 0:10:06.782 videotape of the crime scene that's horrible to watch. And 0:10:07.182 --> 0:10:10.062 it was just a terrible crime scene. But all the 0:10:10.422 --> 0:10:14.102 social media speculation was that this was some kind of 0:10:14.822 --> 0:10:18.862 mafia hit. I just spent two months working on Sorry 0:10:18.902 --> 0:10:21.822 for the Miami Hero about the home video business. So 0:10:21.982 --> 0:10:25.782 I was extremely well connected and called many of my 0:10:25.942 --> 0:10:28.502 sources and they all said to me, people do a 0:10:28.582 --> 0:10:31.542 lot of things in Hollywood to get even they usually 0:10:31.542 --> 0:10:36.822 don't kill each other. And so my sources immediately said, 0:10:36.902 --> 0:10:40.742 this has absolutely nothing to do with the home video business. 0:10:41.542 --> 0:10:44.862 But the LA Times, the Wall Street Journal were all 0:10:44.942 --> 0:10:48.542 running fun Paige stories saying this was a mafia hit 0:10:48.742 --> 0:10:51.982 connected to the home video business. The La Times even 0:10:52.062 --> 0:10:55.902 had a mafia expert law enforcement officer do a couple 0:10:55.902 --> 0:10:59.622 of quotes and say, these murders think of organized crime. 0:11:00.262 --> 0:11:03.382 So that was what the public was sold. And really, 0:11:03.422 --> 0:11:07.262 after about a week the story disappeared from the national media. 0:11:08.102 --> 0:11:09.902 We told us earlier that you did speak to the 0:11:09.902 --> 0:11:13.822 brothers before their arrest, before they were suspects, and you 0:11:13.862 --> 0:11:17.502 didn't have any suspicions. But looking back and reading your 0:11:17.662 --> 0:11:20.022 recollections of that time in your book, they were quite 0:11:20.022 --> 0:11:22.742 cagy with you. They kept canceling interviews and they didn't 0:11:22.782 --> 0:11:25.582 really want to talk about the details. Do you pick 0:11:25.662 --> 0:11:27.942 up on that stuff now when you think back. 0:11:29.182 --> 0:11:33.062 Well, I certainly was well aware that they were canceling 0:11:33.222 --> 0:11:36.982 interviews on me. Canceled three times, and I had been 0:11:37.142 --> 0:11:41.262 on LA for two weeks, and my editor probably you 0:11:41.382 --> 0:11:45.022 need to come back on Monday, regardless of whether you 0:11:45.062 --> 0:11:47.622 speak to their brothers. And so I called their aunt 0:11:47.742 --> 0:11:50.862 Marx Canado and Flora and said, I really would like 0:11:50.982 --> 0:11:55.262 to interview the brothers, but they've canceled on me. Three times, 0:11:55.342 --> 0:11:58.022 can you please call them and tell them it's important 0:11:58.022 --> 0:12:01.502 that we talk. And so she called them and told them, 0:12:02.022 --> 0:12:04.022 you have to talk to Robert brand. 0:12:04.942 --> 0:12:07.982 One thing that did make media coverage at the time 0:12:08.062 --> 0:12:11.142 was how the brothers were behaving after the murder. Can 0:12:11.182 --> 0:12:12.942 you talk us through that? They kind of went on 0:12:12.982 --> 0:12:15.142 a shopping spree. They did a few other things that 0:12:15.502 --> 0:12:16.742 kind of raised eyebrows. 0:12:17.102 --> 0:12:18.702 A couple of things I'd like to say that are 0:12:18.782 --> 0:12:22.822 very important. The first is that the Menends brothers grew 0:12:22.902 --> 0:12:26.542 up in a very wealthy, upper class family, so their 0:12:26.702 --> 0:12:29.462 entire lives they had been used to spending a lot 0:12:29.462 --> 0:12:35.302 of money. And so five weeks after the killings, Marxkiano 0:12:35.622 --> 0:12:39.822 went to Beverly Hills, met the brothers and handed them 0:12:39.862 --> 0:12:43.742 each check for a quarter million dollars and they were 0:12:43.782 --> 0:12:48.302 the beneficiaries of an insurance fallacy. They never got one 0:12:48.342 --> 0:12:52.702 penny of the statement. Lyle did receive a three hundred 0:12:52.782 --> 0:12:56.262 thousand dollars loan from the estate to buy a chickening 0:12:56.302 --> 0:13:00.062 restaurant in Princeton, which he hoped to franchise, But the 0:13:00.102 --> 0:13:03.262 only money they had to spend was this life insurance 0:13:03.262 --> 0:13:07.142 fallacy that they didn't even know that Jose had bought 0:13:07.222 --> 0:13:10.582 from his sister, who was a financial planner. And so 0:13:11.182 --> 0:13:14.942 my theory is, if you had any kid who's eighteen 0:13:15.022 --> 0:13:18.502 or twenty one a quarter million dollars in cash, to me, 0:13:18.662 --> 0:13:20.702 this surprise would be if they didn't go out and 0:13:20.742 --> 0:13:23.462 buy a new car, or buy nice clothes, or by 0:13:23.542 --> 0:13:27.542 a stereo system. Things were very different in the media 0:13:27.982 --> 0:13:31.302 in the early nineties. There was no social media, there 0:13:31.342 --> 0:13:34.902 was no internet. So once the mainstream media had set 0:13:34.982 --> 0:13:38.062 an agenda in a high profile case, that was it. 0:13:38.062 --> 0:13:41.502 It was very difficult for a defendant to fight back. 0:13:41.702 --> 0:13:45.222 And so the defense made what I believe was a 0:13:45.302 --> 0:13:49.182 tactical here, and they chose not to reveal anything about 0:13:49.222 --> 0:13:53.382 their case until two weeks before the first trial in 0:13:53.702 --> 0:13:57.542 July of ninety three. And so the reaction of the 0:13:57.622 --> 0:14:01.622 general public was, well, gee, we've only been hearing this 0:14:01.662 --> 0:14:05.102 one story for three years. Really, rich kids kill a 0:14:05.142 --> 0:14:09.102 lovely couple their parents, and why are we sharing this 0:14:09.302 --> 0:14:13.062 defense theory for the first time? And as I said, 0:14:13.102 --> 0:14:17.982 that was a deliberate decision by the defense. Hindsight, I 0:14:18.022 --> 0:14:20.862 believe was an error, but it really shocked the public. 0:14:21.342 --> 0:14:25.542 And when the defense attorneys LESSI Emes and Joe Lanson 0:14:26.262 --> 0:14:31.062 gave their opening statements. They told the detailed story of 0:14:31.182 --> 0:14:35.462 how the brothers had grown up in a highly destructional family, 0:14:35.902 --> 0:14:40.502 and that they'd been both sexually molested starting when they 0:14:40.502 --> 0:14:41.942 were six years old. 0:14:43.982 --> 0:14:46.822 Up next, I asked Robert about who the Menendez brothers 0:14:46.862 --> 0:14:50.702 confided in about their parents' murder, including a therapist who 0:14:50.742 --> 0:14:56.582 got their confessions on tape. How did the brother's guilt 0:14:56.742 --> 0:15:00.822 start to kind of become evident? Was it was mainly Eric, 0:15:00.902 --> 0:15:04.062 the younger brother, that started to crack a bit, Wasn't that? 0:15:04.662 --> 0:15:09.262 What happened actually was that the Beverly Hills Police received 0:15:09.262 --> 0:15:13.342 a phone call from lawyer representing the mother of one 0:15:13.422 --> 0:15:17.422 of their friends, and that lawyer told the police you 0:15:17.582 --> 0:15:21.102 really should focus on Eric and Lyle. They may have 0:15:21.182 --> 0:15:25.662 been responsible for the killing of their parents. And that 0:15:25.742 --> 0:15:28.822 was the first major clue to the Beverly Hills police 0:15:29.022 --> 0:15:31.742 that was obviously never made public for a long time 0:15:31.862 --> 0:15:35.022 until after that they were arrested. It's never been that 0:15:35.062 --> 0:15:38.182 well known, but somebody tipped off the Beverly Hill police 0:15:38.862 --> 0:15:43.342 and advised them to look very closely at the brothers. 0:15:43.702 --> 0:15:47.462 Did Eric tell anyone about what happened. 0:15:48.782 --> 0:15:52.622 Yes, according to the testimony of his best friend Prexy 0:15:52.662 --> 0:15:58.262 and MORRELLI actually confessed him or basically said, do you 0:15:58.302 --> 0:16:01.422 want to know what happened? About a week after the killings, 0:16:01.942 --> 0:16:07.462 and Eric kind of walked Craig through generally what happened 0:16:07.462 --> 0:16:12.742 that night. And in November and the Beverly Hos police 0:16:13.222 --> 0:16:17.182 had Craig agreed to wear a wire and they had 0:16:17.222 --> 0:16:20.702 dinner with Eric, and obviously they were hoping that on 0:16:20.862 --> 0:16:24.942 this wire they would get a confession from Dusty, but 0:16:25.462 --> 0:16:29.502 he never confessed during that dinner, and that tape was 0:16:29.542 --> 0:16:31.102 basically worthless. 0:16:31.342 --> 0:16:35.742 I went to doctor Roziald because I really wanted to 0:16:35.822 --> 0:16:41.742 kill myself. I told him I was responsible. His response 0:16:42.062 --> 0:16:42.342 was to. 0:16:42.702 --> 0:16:46.102 Have a loud He wanted one tape in which, at 0:16:46.142 --> 0:16:48.302 some point on tape and he told us, do you 0:16:48.342 --> 0:16:51.582 guys say you killed your parents? It wasn't like he 0:16:51.662 --> 0:16:54.142 was like, oh, this is terrible, let me help you guys. 0:16:54.582 --> 0:16:56.702 And then we worked through this in a confidential way. 0:16:57.662 --> 0:17:00.822 That's what a normal therapist would do. Doctor ziel is 0:17:00.942 --> 0:17:02.662 right into blackmail. 0:17:03.302 --> 0:17:06.102 How does the therapist come into this? Did Eric stop 0:17:06.182 --> 0:17:07.222 telling him as well? 0:17:07.622 --> 0:17:12.782 Yes, So, contrary to the bus series. The Menentos brothers 0:17:13.022 --> 0:17:16.742 were not party animals when I met them in late 0:17:16.782 --> 0:17:21.862 October of nineteen eighty nine. They were conservad somewhat shy 0:17:22.302 --> 0:17:28.022 self spoken. Both brothers were known to be very conservative 0:17:28.102 --> 0:17:33.422 athletic jocks who were nationally ranked tennis players. And what 0:17:33.582 --> 0:17:38.022 happened with Eric was that in September eighty nine, following 0:17:38.062 --> 0:17:41.382 four or five weeks after the killings, he moved in 0:17:41.462 --> 0:17:45.342 and stayed with a cousin in the San Ferdeto Valley 0:17:45.422 --> 0:17:49.502 suburb of la Basically, Eric was falling apart. He was 0:17:49.582 --> 0:17:53.982 not partying like they showed in the Monsters series on Netflix. 0:17:54.422 --> 0:17:58.342 Eric was suicidal. He was crying all day every day, 0:17:58.542 --> 0:18:03.342 and finally, after about five weeks, his cousin recommended that 0:18:03.502 --> 0:18:07.342 he go see doctor jo Oziel, who he knew from 0:18:07.382 --> 0:18:13.382 the calvastis Burglaris therapy and so Eric called doctor Orzel 0:18:13.942 --> 0:18:18.142 and made an appointment for Halloween on nineteen eighty nine, 0:18:18.742 --> 0:18:21.342 and Eric told the doctor that he wanted to be 0:18:21.382 --> 0:18:24.662 the lost appointment of the day. He didn't want to 0:18:24.942 --> 0:18:28.942 see anybody else in the office, and so he went 0:18:28.982 --> 0:18:32.822 to doctor Roziel as Lyle was passing out Halloween candy 0:18:33.502 --> 0:18:36.822 at the menendous mansion in Beverly Hills with his girlfriend, 0:18:37.782 --> 0:18:41.622 and so Eric and doctor Zil went out for a walk. 0:18:42.222 --> 0:18:44.582 At the end of that walk, Eric lean back or 0:18:44.662 --> 0:18:48.702 get some parking meter and said, we did it. And 0:18:49.182 --> 0:18:52.502 doctor Ziel said, you mean you killed your parents and 0:18:52.622 --> 0:18:57.982 Eric said yes. So doctor Rozil immediately wanted to call 0:18:58.062 --> 0:19:01.422 Lyle and to have him come over to the office, 0:19:01.862 --> 0:19:05.782 which he did, and Lyle obviously was very angry at 0:19:05.902 --> 0:19:14.342 Eric or confessing, and Le really was terribly upset, you know. 0:19:14.782 --> 0:19:17.182 He said to Eric, why didn't you just talk to me? 0:19:17.542 --> 0:19:20.342 Why did you come to the therapist? Now he knows 0:19:21.142 --> 0:19:25.382 and that could be a problem. And so both brothers 0:19:26.102 --> 0:19:30.382 left doctor Ziel's office after about an hour. But in 0:19:30.582 --> 0:19:35.582 a series of subsequent therapy sessions, doctor Roziel assured the 0:19:35.622 --> 0:19:39.782 brothers that everything they said to him was privilege and 0:19:39.822 --> 0:19:43.662 that he would not ever say anything to the police 0:19:44.022 --> 0:19:48.222 because of that privilege. But there's a side story that 0:19:48.262 --> 0:19:52.422 went on at this time, which was in doctor Roziel's 0:19:52.422 --> 0:19:57.342 parsonal life. Jerry O'sdiel was married to another therapist, but 0:19:57.582 --> 0:20:00.422 he had a girlfriend on the side named Judelon Smith. 0:20:00.782 --> 0:20:06.022 Judelan Smith initially claimed she was in doctor Raziel's waiting 0:20:06.102 --> 0:20:11.182 room and actually overheard the brothers confessed. I believe that 0:20:11.382 --> 0:20:15.342 story is totally a true and that doctor Sells simply 0:20:15.382 --> 0:20:19.502 guss with his girlfriend and total information that he never 0:20:19.582 --> 0:20:23.782 should revealed as a therapist with any integrity? 0:20:24.462 --> 0:20:27.142 Is that true in a therapy sense? If someone admits 0:20:27.182 --> 0:20:30.662 to a crime, especially murder, in your presence, are you 0:20:30.742 --> 0:20:32.902 still not allowed to go to police? Is that all 0:20:32.942 --> 0:20:34.182 supposed to be confidential? 0:20:34.742 --> 0:20:38.582 No, So, even if you confess to a murder, that 0:20:38.822 --> 0:20:43.742 is self privileged. However, California has a law called the 0:20:43.822 --> 0:20:48.622 Tarsoft Law which spells up the exceptions to the privilege. 0:20:49.262 --> 0:20:52.542 And for example, if I go to a therapist tomorrow 0:20:52.662 --> 0:20:55.982 and say I'm going to kill my girlfriend tomorrow, the 0:20:55.982 --> 0:20:58.902 therapist is obligated to contact law enforcement. 0:20:59.662 --> 0:21:02.262 A therapist would have to disclose the police if the 0:21:02.342 --> 0:21:05.142 killing was about to happen, But if the killing has 0:21:05.142 --> 0:21:09.702 already happened, then that's a different story. You're right, right, 0:21:09.742 --> 0:21:11.902 So he doesn't have to tell anyone. He's actually under 0:21:11.902 --> 0:21:12.942 oath not to tell anyone. 0:21:13.702 --> 0:21:18.622 That is the privilege law in California. But there's another exception. 0:21:19.022 --> 0:21:22.622 Under the tearsoft rule, and that is, if you threaten 0:21:22.742 --> 0:21:26.182 your therapist, if you say I'm going to kill you, 0:21:26.342 --> 0:21:28.742 I'm going to hurgh you, I'm going after your family, 0:21:29.182 --> 0:21:33.382 the therapist is obligated to go to the police. And 0:21:33.462 --> 0:21:38.942 so when Eric Menandez for leaving is off after one hour, 0:21:40.342 --> 0:21:44.942 well Menandas shook Doc Rozel's hand and he said good 0:21:45.022 --> 0:21:49.502 luck to Roziel. And according to Ozield, that was the threat. 0:21:50.262 --> 0:21:54.422 You perceived that as a threat. That's how that information 0:21:54.742 --> 0:21:58.422 was allowed in the trial. But there's one other thing 0:21:58.462 --> 0:22:01.942 you should know about doctor Roziel. The defense claimed in 0:22:02.022 --> 0:22:07.782 the first trial that o'zeal was blackmailing brothers because he 0:22:07.862 --> 0:22:11.142 told them both, you both need therapy days a week, 0:22:11.742 --> 0:22:15.102 and I'm going to be billing your family back East 0:22:15.662 --> 0:22:18.822 for two therapy sessions a day, one for each of you. 0:22:19.062 --> 0:22:22.422 And so the bills kept getting larger and larger, and 0:22:22.502 --> 0:22:26.622 finally March Cando, Jose's sister in westwan Beach called the 0:22:26.662 --> 0:22:30.382 brothers and said, do you really need ten thousand dollars 0:22:30.382 --> 0:22:35.022 worth of therapy every week? And they told her they 0:22:35.062 --> 0:22:38.782 insisted that the bills we paid and therapy was helping 0:22:38.822 --> 0:22:42.902 them so much and in reality, Eric and Lyle Menendez 0:22:43.462 --> 0:22:46.662 never showed up for a single appointment on the books. 0:22:47.382 --> 0:22:50.182 Was it all of this stuff with Ozial that eventually 0:22:50.302 --> 0:22:51.062 led to their arrest? 0:22:51.582 --> 0:22:54.902 Yes. The way that Lyle and Eric Menande's were arrested 0:22:55.222 --> 0:22:59.222 was that Judelan Smith was finally kicked out of the 0:22:59.262 --> 0:23:03.022 house by doctor Ziel and his wife and the next 0:23:03.102 --> 0:23:05.902 day she went to the Beverly Hill police and said, 0:23:06.062 --> 0:23:11.502 Eric lyleman Ands killed their parents and doctor Dreaz has 0:23:11.782 --> 0:23:17.062 some tapes in his safebox, including one tape with Erica 0:23:17.102 --> 0:23:22.582 Lyles's confession that was recorded in December eighty nine, a 0:23:22.622 --> 0:23:27.782 couple months after Eric Hurst contested Doctor Razel. So the 0:23:27.982 --> 0:23:31.382 morning after Judelan Smith went to the Beverly Hills place, 0:23:31.942 --> 0:23:37.062 the investigators conducted a search hoarm on doctor Rozel's house. 0:23:37.382 --> 0:23:41.382 The entire team of police went to the Ouzel's house 0:23:42.102 --> 0:23:46.702 and also there was what's called a special Master and 0:23:46.862 --> 0:23:51.862 his job in a situation that involves possibly privileged material 0:23:52.302 --> 0:23:56.582 is to hold onto the tapes and don't let anybody 0:23:56.622 --> 0:24:01.662 hear the tapes because they would become a source of litigation. 0:24:02.182 --> 0:24:06.142 In the days after the brothers were rushing doctor Rozil. 0:24:06.462 --> 0:24:09.342 After they got the tapes from his safe found box, 0:24:09.502 --> 0:24:13.302 he insisted that the police listened to the tapes immediately. 0:24:13.622 --> 0:24:17.462 And doctor Zil is very upset and he said, there 0:24:17.502 --> 0:24:20.662 are more people that are going to die tonight and 0:24:20.742 --> 0:24:23.222 in the next few days if you don't hear these 0:24:23.262 --> 0:24:27.022 tapes right now. And so the police were more than 0:24:27.062 --> 0:24:31.142 happy to listen to the tapes in spite of what 0:24:31.302 --> 0:24:35.462 the law said was this Special Master was a lawyer, 0:24:35.622 --> 0:24:39.822 was supposed to seize the tapes keep them in his possession, 0:24:40.222 --> 0:24:44.702 and so there would likely be litigation later. They listened 0:24:44.702 --> 0:24:48.462 to the tapes in doctor Ziel's living room than the 0:24:48.502 --> 0:24:53.942 afternoon on the search and a few hours later MENANDUS arrested. 0:24:54.862 --> 0:24:58.822 Eric was in Israel in a test tournament and he 0:24:58.942 --> 0:25:03.102 actually made it out of Israel to London before Interpol 0:25:03.262 --> 0:25:07.382 came knocking on his door in Israel. So Eric was 0:25:08.382 --> 0:25:13.942 actually in London known to interpoal for several days with 0:25:14.102 --> 0:25:18.182 his test coach, Mark Vernan. The family hired Robert Spiro, 0:25:18.462 --> 0:25:23.102 a lawyer that from the O. J. Simpson case, and 0:25:23.422 --> 0:25:28.022 Robert Spiro made a horrible mistake. He had Eric come 0:25:28.062 --> 0:25:32.862 back and surrender in Los Angeles. Eric flew from London 0:25:32.942 --> 0:25:36.302 to Miami. He met his aunt Markcano and her son 0:25:36.382 --> 0:25:39.982 Andy Cano, who became well known for his testimony in 0:25:40.022 --> 0:25:43.302 the first trial and also because of some of the 0:25:43.342 --> 0:25:47.302 new evidence. Is a letter Eric Menendez wrote to Andy 0:25:47.382 --> 0:25:52.142 Cano in late nineteen eighty eight complaining about the ongoing 0:25:52.182 --> 0:25:56.382 sexual abuse by his father. If Eric Menandez had simply 0:25:56.542 --> 0:26:00.062 walked into a police station, any police station in London 0:26:00.222 --> 0:26:03.542 and surrendered, it would have been a condition of his 0:26:03.902 --> 0:26:07.982 extradition that he not be eligible for the death family 0:26:08.462 --> 0:26:12.542 because the UK does not have the deathly and so 0:26:12.702 --> 0:26:17.902 by having Eric returned to Los Angeles and director, he 0:26:17.982 --> 0:26:21.502 made him eligible for the death Oh my gosh, and 0:26:21.622 --> 0:26:26.742 so that's insane. When the family found out about all this, 0:26:26.942 --> 0:26:29.782 they fired Robert Shapiro two or three weeks after he 0:26:29.902 --> 0:26:34.502 was hired, and they hired Leslie Eberson, which was a 0:26:34.542 --> 0:26:38.862 great move by them because watching her in court was 0:26:39.302 --> 0:26:43.542