1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,302 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges the 2 00:00:16,342 --> 00:00:20,182 Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was recorded 3 00:00:20,182 --> 00:00:30,622 Speaker 1: on it's August nineteen eighty nine, and a nine to 4 00:00:30,622 --> 00:00:32,982 Speaker 1: one to one call comes through from a Beverly Hills 5 00:00:33,022 --> 00:00:37,702 Speaker 1: mansion on ELM Drive just before midnight. The caller is 6 00:00:37,742 --> 00:00:42,142 Speaker 1: twenty one year old Lyle Menendez and he's hysterical. You 7 00:00:42,142 --> 00:00:44,422 Speaker 1: can hear his eighteen year old brother Eric in the 8 00:00:44,422 --> 00:00:46,102 Speaker 1: background also crying. 9 00:00:49,742 --> 00:00:54,942 Speaker 2: When he shot right start he shot. 10 00:00:54,982 --> 00:01:00,142 Speaker 1: What happened? The brother's parents, Jose and Kitty, are dead, 11 00:01:00,742 --> 00:01:04,742 Speaker 1: shot a combined sixteen times at close range while in 12 00:01:04,782 --> 00:01:10,702 Speaker 1: their TV room. The crime scene is horrific. The bodies 13 00:01:10,782 --> 00:01:15,302 Speaker 1: are severely maimed and there's blood everywhere. Detectives quickly notice 14 00:01:15,302 --> 00:01:18,822 Speaker 1: there's no shells. Whoever shot them has picked them all 15 00:01:18,902 --> 00:01:23,222 Speaker 1: up before fleeing. At first, they suspect a mafia or 16 00:01:23,302 --> 00:01:27,422 Speaker 1: mob hit, but seven months later it's the brothers who 17 00:01:27,462 --> 00:01:30,742 Speaker 1: are arrested for murder in a case that catapults them 18 00:01:30,742 --> 00:01:36,542 Speaker 1: into worldwide infamy. Even thirty five years later, we're still 19 00:01:36,582 --> 00:01:41,062 Speaker 1: talking about the Menendez brothers, their two high profile trials, 20 00:01:41,702 --> 00:01:51,342 Speaker 1: and why they killed their parents. I'm Jemma Bass and 21 00:01:51,422 --> 00:01:54,742 Speaker 1: this is True Crime Conversations, a Mum of Meer podcast 22 00:01:54,902 --> 00:01:58,542 Speaker 1: exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the 23 00:01:58,582 --> 00:02:02,582 Speaker 1: people who know the most about them. It took years 24 00:02:02,582 --> 00:02:05,542 Speaker 1: for the brothers to start telling their side of the story, 25 00:02:06,142 --> 00:02:10,142 Speaker 1: the true reason that led them to murder, the depraved family, 26 00:02:10,142 --> 00:02:14,542 Speaker 1: sea secrets that haunted them their entire lives. This is 27 00:02:14,582 --> 00:02:17,702 Speaker 1: a case that has divided public opinion since the moment 28 00:02:17,822 --> 00:02:21,822 Speaker 1: they were arrested, and has regained fresh notoriety in twenty 29 00:02:21,862 --> 00:02:24,662 Speaker 1: twenty four as a new wave of supporters demand their 30 00:02:24,662 --> 00:02:27,982 Speaker 1: release from prison, and Netflix release is not one but 31 00:02:28,142 --> 00:02:31,822 Speaker 1: two new deep dives into their story, a drama called 32 00:02:31,902 --> 00:02:36,862 Speaker 1: Monsters and a documentary called The Menendez Brothers. Eric now 33 00:02:36,902 --> 00:02:40,862 Speaker 1: fifty three and Lyle now fifty six, have been in 34 00:02:40,862 --> 00:02:45,982 Speaker 1: prison for almost thirty five years. Robert Rand is an 35 00:02:45,982 --> 00:02:49,462 Speaker 1: Emmy Award winning journalist who began covering the Menendez brothers 36 00:02:49,582 --> 00:02:52,302 Speaker 1: case for the Miami Herald the day after the murders 37 00:02:52,342 --> 00:02:56,742 Speaker 1: on August twenty one, nineteen eighty nine. He's been covering 38 00:02:56,742 --> 00:02:59,902 Speaker 1: the case ever since and has a personal relationship with 39 00:02:59,942 --> 00:03:03,702 Speaker 1: the brothers, speaking to them regularly. Days after our interview, 40 00:03:04,062 --> 00:03:08,582 Speaker 1: an announcement Robert had been expecting was confirmed. The La 41 00:03:08,662 --> 00:03:12,222 Speaker 1: County District Attorney has wrecked amended the brothers for re sentencing, 42 00:03:12,742 --> 00:03:15,222 Speaker 1: and as he explains in our chat, that's just the 43 00:03:15,262 --> 00:03:18,262 Speaker 1: first of a number of hurdles they face if they'd 44 00:03:18,302 --> 00:03:24,342 Speaker 1: ever walk free from prison. Robert joins us. Now, Robert 45 00:03:24,382 --> 00:03:27,942 Speaker 1: from the outside. Who were the Menendez family living on 46 00:03:27,982 --> 00:03:30,542 Speaker 1: Elm Drive in Beverly Hills in the eighties. 47 00:03:31,542 --> 00:03:34,662 Speaker 3: Well, the family of Jose and kideven Ands and their 48 00:03:34,702 --> 00:03:38,782 Speaker 3: two sons, Eric Lyle were the American dream. JOSEM. Nunders 49 00:03:39,062 --> 00:03:42,942 Speaker 3: was a entertainment exective making two million dollars a year 50 00:03:43,582 --> 00:03:47,942 Speaker 3: Erica lyman Ands were nationally recked Tess players. Kitty was 51 00:03:48,062 --> 00:03:51,302 Speaker 3: very involved in charity work on the outside looking in, 52 00:03:52,102 --> 00:03:56,102 Speaker 3: This was who people dreamed of becoming in America. Behind 53 00:03:56,102 --> 00:04:00,022 Speaker 3: the walls of that mansion, this was a highly dysfunctional 54 00:04:00,062 --> 00:04:02,862 Speaker 3: family that were speating widely out of control. 55 00:04:03,102 --> 00:04:05,382 Speaker 1: Let's hear a little bit more about Jose and Kitty 56 00:04:05,382 --> 00:04:08,942 Speaker 1: and that kind of origin story. Obviously that were very rich. 57 00:04:09,102 --> 00:04:11,262 Speaker 1: Where did all that wealth come film? How did their 58 00:04:11,342 --> 00:04:11,982 Speaker 1: story stop? 59 00:04:12,142 --> 00:04:16,182 Speaker 3: Actually, Jose and Kidding Menanda's were dirt poor when they met. 60 00:04:16,382 --> 00:04:21,422 Speaker 3: Before Jose immigrated to the States, he was a country 61 00:04:21,462 --> 00:04:25,982 Speaker 3: culbal lifestyle in Nevana, and overnight he was living in 62 00:04:26,022 --> 00:04:30,742 Speaker 3: the attic of the home of distant relatives in northeastern Pennsylvania, 63 00:04:31,262 --> 00:04:34,062 Speaker 3: and suddenly he had no money. So it was a 64 00:04:34,142 --> 00:04:37,142 Speaker 3: very radical change for him to come in the States. 65 00:04:37,622 --> 00:04:40,582 Speaker 3: His sister, march Cano told me when I met her 66 00:04:40,662 --> 00:04:44,382 Speaker 3: ten days after the killings, and Jose wanted to run 67 00:04:44,422 --> 00:04:47,422 Speaker 3: for the US Senate from Florida. He wanted to aus 68 00:04:47,502 --> 00:04:50,782 Speaker 3: Castro from Cuba, the man who had taken away his 69 00:04:50,942 --> 00:04:54,262 Speaker 3: country club lifestyle. The first day I met Jose's sister 70 00:04:54,302 --> 00:04:57,502 Speaker 3: of marce Keno, we didn't talk at all about the 71 00:04:57,542 --> 00:05:00,982 Speaker 3: American investigation. There were some months between the crime and 72 00:05:01,022 --> 00:05:04,022 Speaker 3: the rest of Eric and Lyle Menendez, and so she 73 00:05:04,262 --> 00:05:08,582 Speaker 3: spent four hours telling me the family history, which was 74 00:05:08,862 --> 00:05:12,102 Speaker 3: extremely interesting, of how they started in Spain. They were 75 00:05:12,182 --> 00:05:15,422 Speaker 3: dirt bored, they became very wealthy, and then they lost 76 00:05:15,462 --> 00:05:20,262 Speaker 3: everything when Franco came into power. They immigrated to Cuba. 77 00:05:21,022 --> 00:05:24,142 Speaker 3: In a period of years, they became very wealthy, and 78 00:05:24,222 --> 00:05:27,542 Speaker 3: then they lost everything once again when Castro came into power. 79 00:05:27,982 --> 00:05:31,902 Speaker 3: And then the family came to the States and they started, 80 00:05:31,942 --> 00:05:35,382 Speaker 3: like many Kiven immigrants, with nothing, and they were tired. 81 00:05:35,782 --> 00:05:39,542 Speaker 3: They became wealthy all over again. So the family story 82 00:05:39,862 --> 00:05:41,262 Speaker 3: is really kind of interesting. 83 00:05:42,062 --> 00:05:45,662 Speaker 1: How about Lyle and Eric, the obviously come from these 84 00:05:45,662 --> 00:05:49,942 Speaker 1: two at the time very wealthy parents or wealthy family, 85 00:05:50,182 --> 00:05:54,942 Speaker 1: the very attractive young men. What was their reputation before 86 00:05:54,982 --> 00:05:55,822 Speaker 1: all of this happened. 87 00:05:56,342 --> 00:06:00,902 Speaker 3: Well, I spent three days interviewing Eric and Lymnandez two 88 00:06:00,942 --> 00:06:04,582 Speaker 3: months after the killing of their parents, five months before. 89 00:06:04,622 --> 00:06:08,422 Speaker 3: They were a rustled and they weren't suspects publicly, and 90 00:06:08,662 --> 00:06:12,062 Speaker 3: I had no reason to be suspicions of them, And 91 00:06:12,102 --> 00:06:16,502 Speaker 3: they told me for several days, very loving, caring, emotional 92 00:06:16,542 --> 00:06:20,022 Speaker 3: stories about how much they missed their parents. I had 93 00:06:20,102 --> 00:06:23,902 Speaker 3: met them because of Jose's sister, march Cano, who lived 94 00:06:23,902 --> 00:06:27,262 Speaker 3: in westbamb Beach, Florida, And I was writing for the 95 00:06:27,302 --> 00:06:32,262 Speaker 3: Sunday magazine of the Miami Hera, and my assignment in 96 00:06:32,302 --> 00:06:34,742 Speaker 3: the fall of eighty nine was not to write about 97 00:06:34,782 --> 00:06:39,262 Speaker 3: the murder investigation, but to do a biography aboutse Menendez. 98 00:06:39,542 --> 00:06:42,462 Speaker 3: Rag Serusia's story ends in a terrible. 99 00:06:42,222 --> 00:06:46,022 Speaker 1: Tragedy In nineteen eighty eight. So about a year before 100 00:06:46,022 --> 00:06:48,462 Speaker 1: the killings, the brothers were caught up in a series 101 00:06:48,462 --> 00:06:51,142 Speaker 1: of burglaries. Can you talk us through that? What were 102 00:06:51,142 --> 00:06:53,462 Speaker 1: they doing? Why were they stealing? They obviously came from 103 00:06:53,462 --> 00:06:54,222 Speaker 1: a rich family. 104 00:06:54,622 --> 00:06:58,182 Speaker 3: The birtlaries in Calabasas, which is also known as the 105 00:06:58,222 --> 00:07:02,902 Speaker 3: home of the Kardashian family. Were Eric and Lyle doing 106 00:07:02,942 --> 00:07:07,622 Speaker 3: burtlaries with close friends of theirs from Calabasas hide the 107 00:07:07,742 --> 00:07:11,662 Speaker 3: victims were actually the parents some of the kids doing 108 00:07:11,662 --> 00:07:15,062 Speaker 3: the burglaries, so that is how they just happened to 109 00:07:15,262 --> 00:07:18,942 Speaker 3: know the combinations to safes. The fact that Eric de 110 00:07:18,982 --> 00:07:23,142 Speaker 3: Lyle were involved in this group of wealthy kids who 111 00:07:23,222 --> 00:07:26,662 Speaker 3: were known to be spoiled is part of who they were. 112 00:07:27,182 --> 00:07:31,782 Speaker 3: They got involved in these burglaries and everything was settled. 113 00:07:32,302 --> 00:07:36,142 Speaker 3: Jose Menendez hired one of the best criminal defense attourneys 114 00:07:36,542 --> 00:07:40,422 Speaker 3: in La Basically, Eric Menandez took the fall for both 115 00:07:40,502 --> 00:07:44,622 Speaker 3: brothers and was cut up as a juvenile in the 116 00:07:44,782 --> 00:07:49,702 Speaker 3: juvenile court system, and so he was basically released with 117 00:07:50,022 --> 00:07:53,662 Speaker 3: a slap on the risk and Jose promised that both 118 00:07:53,702 --> 00:07:59,062 Speaker 3: brothers would seek counseling with doctor Jerome Mosil, who was 119 00:07:59,142 --> 00:08:03,622 Speaker 3: a therapist that kiddyman and just knew about and that 120 00:08:03,782 --> 00:08:08,142 Speaker 3: therapy initially included all four of them and his family members. 121 00:08:08,862 --> 00:08:12,142 Speaker 3: And then Jose wan to make sure that they didn't 122 00:08:12,182 --> 00:08:17,662 Speaker 3: reveal anything negative about the family, and so Jose had 123 00:08:17,702 --> 00:08:22,062 Speaker 3: the therapists actually write a letter giving permission for the 124 00:08:22,062 --> 00:08:26,222 Speaker 3: therapists to tell him everything that went on from therapy sessions. 125 00:08:26,822 --> 00:08:30,982 Speaker 3: So Eric and Lyle were both asked to sign these waivers, 126 00:08:31,382 --> 00:08:33,422 Speaker 3: and so there was no way that they were going 127 00:08:33,502 --> 00:08:36,342 Speaker 3: to tell any of the secrets of the family. 128 00:08:37,182 --> 00:08:39,822 Speaker 1: That is such a violation, isn't it doesn't that go 129 00:08:39,902 --> 00:08:41,942 Speaker 1: against the whole idea of therapy. 130 00:08:43,422 --> 00:08:48,102 Speaker 3: Of course, it's a horrible violation of therapy. The therapist, 131 00:08:48,262 --> 00:08:52,342 Speaker 3: doctor Jeromo o'zel, was a star of prosecution witness in 132 00:08:52,382 --> 00:08:55,382 Speaker 3: the first trial. The brothers were not going to say 133 00:08:55,422 --> 00:09:00,982 Speaker 3: anything to him beyond the superficial account of the family 134 00:09:01,062 --> 00:09:04,142 Speaker 3: and the burglaries, because they knew everything they said would 135 00:09:04,182 --> 00:09:07,462 Speaker 3: be repeated to their father. And normally you have a 136 00:09:07,542 --> 00:09:10,942 Speaker 3: privilege with a therapist thought point of therapy and see 137 00:09:11,142 --> 00:09:14,062 Speaker 3: you are in a safe place and can go to 138 00:09:14,062 --> 00:09:18,742 Speaker 3: a therapist and tell him your deepest seekers. But they 139 00:09:18,782 --> 00:09:19,382 Speaker 3: knew they could. 140 00:09:20,342 --> 00:09:23,342 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the crime itself. So it was August twenty, 141 00:09:23,462 --> 00:09:27,302 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine. The brothers were eighteen and twenty one, 142 00:09:27,782 --> 00:09:32,262 Speaker 1: and Lyle called nine one one really upset and reported 143 00:09:32,302 --> 00:09:35,462 Speaker 1: his parents had been shot. What did police make of 144 00:09:35,782 --> 00:09:38,222 Speaker 1: the crime scene, Because one of the parts that is 145 00:09:38,302 --> 00:09:41,542 Speaker 1: dissected a lot is how gruesome the injuries were and 146 00:09:41,582 --> 00:09:44,582 Speaker 1: how attacking the parents' faces they were. 147 00:09:45,702 --> 00:09:50,382 Speaker 3: Well, shotguns are a terrible weapon to kill people with. 148 00:09:51,022 --> 00:09:54,662 Speaker 3: I mean they do tremendous damage to a human body. 149 00:09:54,902 --> 00:09:58,342 Speaker 3: So the crime scene was gruesome. I've seen all the 150 00:09:58,342 --> 00:10:02,782 Speaker 3: auto se phoos. They're gruesome. There's a Beverly Hills police 151 00:10:02,942 --> 00:10:06,782 Speaker 3: videotape of the crime scene that's horrible to watch. And 152 00:10:07,182 --> 00:10:10,062 Speaker 3: it was just a terrible crime scene. But all the 153 00:10:10,422 --> 00:10:14,102 Speaker 3: social media speculation was that this was some kind of 154 00:10:14,822 --> 00:10:18,862 Speaker 3: mafia hit. I just spent two months working on Sorry 155 00:10:18,902 --> 00:10:21,822 Speaker 3: for the Miami Hero about the home video business. So 156 00:10:21,982 --> 00:10:25,782 Speaker 3: I was extremely well connected and called many of my 157 00:10:25,942 --> 00:10:28,502 Speaker 3: sources and they all said to me, people do a 158 00:10:28,582 --> 00:10:31,542 Speaker 3: lot of things in Hollywood to get even they usually 159 00:10:31,542 --> 00:10:36,822 Speaker 3: don't kill each other. And so my sources immediately said, 160 00:10:36,902 --> 00:10:40,742 Speaker 3: this has absolutely nothing to do with the home video business. 161 00:10:41,542 --> 00:10:44,862 Speaker 3: But the LA Times, the Wall Street Journal were all 162 00:10:44,942 --> 00:10:48,542 Speaker 3: running fun Paige stories saying this was a mafia hit 163 00:10:48,742 --> 00:10:51,982 Speaker 3: connected to the home video business. The La Times even 164 00:10:52,062 --> 00:10:55,902 Speaker 3: had a mafia expert law enforcement officer do a couple 165 00:10:55,902 --> 00:10:59,622 Speaker 3: of quotes and say, these murders think of organized crime. 166 00:11:00,262 --> 00:11:03,382 Speaker 3: So that was what the public was sold. And really, 167 00:11:03,422 --> 00:11:07,262 Speaker 3: after about a week the story disappeared from the national media. 168 00:11:08,102 --> 00:11:09,902 Speaker 1: We told us earlier that you did speak to the 169 00:11:09,902 --> 00:11:13,822 Speaker 1: brothers before their arrest, before they were suspects, and you 170 00:11:13,862 --> 00:11:17,502 Speaker 1: didn't have any suspicions. But looking back and reading your 171 00:11:17,662 --> 00:11:20,022 Speaker 1: recollections of that time in your book, they were quite 172 00:11:20,022 --> 00:11:22,742 Speaker 1: cagy with you. They kept canceling interviews and they didn't 173 00:11:22,782 --> 00:11:25,582 Speaker 1: really want to talk about the details. Do you pick 174 00:11:25,662 --> 00:11:27,942 Speaker 1: up on that stuff now when you think back. 175 00:11:29,182 --> 00:11:33,062 Speaker 3: Well, I certainly was well aware that they were canceling 176 00:11:33,222 --> 00:11:36,982 Speaker 3: interviews on me. Canceled three times, and I had been 177 00:11:37,142 --> 00:11:41,262 Speaker 3: on LA for two weeks, and my editor probably you 178 00:11:41,382 --> 00:11:45,022 Speaker 3: need to come back on Monday, regardless of whether you 179 00:11:45,062 --> 00:11:47,622 Speaker 3: speak to their brothers. And so I called their aunt 180 00:11:47,742 --> 00:11:50,862 Speaker 3: Marx Canado and Flora and said, I really would like 181 00:11:50,982 --> 00:11:55,262 Speaker 3: to interview the brothers, but they've canceled on me. Three times, 182 00:11:55,342 --> 00:11:58,022 Speaker 3: can you please call them and tell them it's important 183 00:11:58,022 --> 00:12:01,502 Speaker 3: that we talk. And so she called them and told them, 184 00:12:02,022 --> 00:12:04,022 Speaker 3: you have to talk to Robert brand. 185 00:12:04,942 --> 00:12:07,982 Speaker 1: One thing that did make media coverage at the time 186 00:12:08,062 --> 00:12:11,142 Speaker 1: was how the brothers were behaving after the murder. Can 187 00:12:11,182 --> 00:12:12,942 Speaker 1: you talk us through that? They kind of went on 188 00:12:12,982 --> 00:12:15,142 Speaker 1: a shopping spree. They did a few other things that 189 00:12:15,502 --> 00:12:16,742 Speaker 1: kind of raised eyebrows. 190 00:12:17,102 --> 00:12:18,702 Speaker 3: A couple of things I'd like to say that are 191 00:12:18,782 --> 00:12:22,822 Speaker 3: very important. The first is that the Menends brothers grew 192 00:12:22,902 --> 00:12:26,542 Speaker 3: up in a very wealthy, upper class family, so their 193 00:12:26,702 --> 00:12:29,462 Speaker 3: entire lives they had been used to spending a lot 194 00:12:29,462 --> 00:12:35,302 Speaker 3: of money. And so five weeks after the killings, Marxkiano 195 00:12:35,622 --> 00:12:39,822 Speaker 3: went to Beverly Hills, met the brothers and handed them 196 00:12:39,862 --> 00:12:43,742 Speaker 3: each check for a quarter million dollars and they were 197 00:12:43,782 --> 00:12:48,302 Speaker 3: the beneficiaries of an insurance fallacy. They never got one 198 00:12:48,342 --> 00:12:52,702 Speaker 3: penny of the statement. Lyle did receive a three hundred 199 00:12:52,782 --> 00:12:56,262 Speaker 3: thousand dollars loan from the estate to buy a chickening 200 00:12:56,302 --> 00:13:00,062 Speaker 3: restaurant in Princeton, which he hoped to franchise, But the 201 00:13:00,102 --> 00:13:03,262 Speaker 3: only money they had to spend was this life insurance 202 00:13:03,262 --> 00:13:07,142 Speaker 3: fallacy that they didn't even know that Jose had bought 203 00:13:07,222 --> 00:13:10,582 Speaker 3: from his sister, who was a financial planner. And so 204 00:13:11,182 --> 00:13:14,942 Speaker 3: my theory is, if you had any kid who's eighteen 205 00:13:15,022 --> 00:13:18,502 Speaker 3: or twenty one a quarter million dollars in cash, to me, 206 00:13:18,662 --> 00:13:20,702 Speaker 3: this surprise would be if they didn't go out and 207 00:13:20,742 --> 00:13:23,462 Speaker 3: buy a new car, or buy nice clothes, or by 208 00:13:23,542 --> 00:13:27,542 Speaker 3: a stereo system. Things were very different in the media 209 00:13:27,982 --> 00:13:31,302 Speaker 3: in the early nineties. There was no social media, there 210 00:13:31,342 --> 00:13:34,902 Speaker 3: was no internet. So once the mainstream media had set 211 00:13:34,982 --> 00:13:38,062 Speaker 3: an agenda in a high profile case, that was it. 212 00:13:38,062 --> 00:13:41,502 Speaker 3: It was very difficult for a defendant to fight back. 213 00:13:41,702 --> 00:13:45,222 Speaker 3: And so the defense made what I believe was a 214 00:13:45,302 --> 00:13:49,182 Speaker 3: tactical here, and they chose not to reveal anything about 215 00:13:49,222 --> 00:13:53,382 Speaker 3: their case until two weeks before the first trial in 216 00:13:53,702 --> 00:13:57,542 Speaker 3: July of ninety three. And so the reaction of the 217 00:13:57,622 --> 00:14:01,622 Speaker 3: general public was, well, gee, we've only been hearing this 218 00:14:01,662 --> 00:14:05,102 Speaker 3: one story for three years. Really, rich kids kill a 219 00:14:05,142 --> 00:14:09,102 Speaker 3: lovely couple their parents, and why are we sharing this 220 00:14:09,302 --> 00:14:13,062 Speaker 3: defense theory for the first time? And as I said, 221 00:14:13,102 --> 00:14:17,982 Speaker 3: that was a deliberate decision by the defense. Hindsight, I 222 00:14:18,022 --> 00:14:20,862 Speaker 3: believe was an error, but it really shocked the public. 223 00:14:21,342 --> 00:14:25,542 Speaker 3: And when the defense attorneys LESSI Emes and Joe Lanson 224 00:14:26,262 --> 00:14:31,062 Speaker 3: gave their opening statements. They told the detailed story of 225 00:14:31,182 --> 00:14:35,462 Speaker 3: how the brothers had grown up in a highly destructional family, 226 00:14:35,902 --> 00:14:40,502 Speaker 3: and that they'd been both sexually molested starting when they 227 00:14:40,502 --> 00:14:41,942 Speaker 3: were six years old. 228 00:14:43,982 --> 00:14:46,822 Speaker 1: Up next, I asked Robert about who the Menendez brothers 229 00:14:46,862 --> 00:14:50,702 Speaker 1: confided in about their parents' murder, including a therapist who 230 00:14:50,742 --> 00:14:56,582 Speaker 1: got their confessions on tape. How did the brother's guilt 231 00:14:56,742 --> 00:15:00,822 Speaker 1: start to kind of become evident? Was it was mainly Eric, 232 00:15:00,902 --> 00:15:04,062 Speaker 1: the younger brother, that started to crack a bit, Wasn't that? 233 00:15:04,662 --> 00:15:09,262 Speaker 3: What happened actually was that the Beverly Hills Police received 234 00:15:09,262 --> 00:15:13,342 Speaker 3: a phone call from lawyer representing the mother of one 235 00:15:13,422 --> 00:15:17,422 Speaker 3: of their friends, and that lawyer told the police you 236 00:15:17,582 --> 00:15:21,102 Speaker 3: really should focus on Eric and Lyle. They may have 237 00:15:21,182 --> 00:15:25,662 Speaker 3: been responsible for the killing of their parents. And that 238 00:15:25,742 --> 00:15:28,822 Speaker 3: was the first major clue to the Beverly Hills police 239 00:15:29,022 --> 00:15:31,742 Speaker 3: that was obviously never made public for a long time 240 00:15:31,862 --> 00:15:35,022 Speaker 3: until after that they were arrested. It's never been that 241 00:15:35,062 --> 00:15:38,182 Speaker 3: well known, but somebody tipped off the Beverly Hill police 242 00:15:38,862 --> 00:15:43,342 Speaker 3: and advised them to look very closely at the brothers. 243 00:15:43,702 --> 00:15:47,462 Speaker 1: Did Eric tell anyone about what happened. 244 00:15:48,782 --> 00:15:52,622 Speaker 3: Yes, according to the testimony of his best friend Prexy 245 00:15:52,662 --> 00:15:58,262 Speaker 3: and MORRELLI actually confessed him or basically said, do you 246 00:15:58,302 --> 00:16:01,422 Speaker 3: want to know what happened? About a week after the killings, 247 00:16:01,942 --> 00:16:07,462 Speaker 3: and Eric kind of walked Craig through generally what happened 248 00:16:07,462 --> 00:16:12,742 Speaker 3: that night. And in November and the Beverly Hos police 249 00:16:13,222 --> 00:16:17,182 Speaker 3: had Craig agreed to wear a wire and they had 250 00:16:17,222 --> 00:16:20,702 Speaker 3: dinner with Eric, and obviously they were hoping that on 251 00:16:20,862 --> 00:16:24,942 Speaker 3: this wire they would get a confession from Dusty, but 252 00:16:25,462 --> 00:16:29,502 Speaker 3: he never confessed during that dinner, and that tape was 253 00:16:29,542 --> 00:16:31,102 Speaker 3: basically worthless. 254 00:16:31,342 --> 00:16:35,742 Speaker 4: I went to doctor Roziald because I really wanted to 255 00:16:35,822 --> 00:16:41,742 Speaker 4: kill myself. I told him I was responsible. His response 256 00:16:42,062 --> 00:16:42,342 Speaker 4: was to. 257 00:16:42,702 --> 00:16:46,102 Speaker 2: Have a loud He wanted one tape in which, at 258 00:16:46,142 --> 00:16:48,302 Speaker 2: some point on tape and he told us, do you 259 00:16:48,342 --> 00:16:51,582 Speaker 2: guys say you killed your parents? It wasn't like he 260 00:16:51,662 --> 00:16:54,142 Speaker 2: was like, oh, this is terrible, let me help you guys. 261 00:16:54,582 --> 00:16:56,702 Speaker 2: And then we worked through this in a confidential way. 262 00:16:57,662 --> 00:17:00,822 Speaker 2: That's what a normal therapist would do. Doctor ziel is 263 00:17:00,942 --> 00:17:02,662 Speaker 2: right into blackmail. 264 00:17:03,302 --> 00:17:06,102 Speaker 1: How does the therapist come into this? Did Eric stop 265 00:17:06,182 --> 00:17:07,222 Speaker 1: telling him as well? 266 00:17:07,622 --> 00:17:12,782 Speaker 3: Yes, So, contrary to the bus series. The Menentos brothers 267 00:17:13,022 --> 00:17:16,742 Speaker 3: were not party animals when I met them in late 268 00:17:16,782 --> 00:17:21,862 Speaker 3: October of nineteen eighty nine. They were conservad somewhat shy 269 00:17:22,302 --> 00:17:28,022 Speaker 3: self spoken. Both brothers were known to be very conservative 270 00:17:28,102 --> 00:17:33,422 Speaker 3: athletic jocks who were nationally ranked tennis players. And what 271 00:17:33,582 --> 00:17:38,022 Speaker 3: happened with Eric was that in September eighty nine, following 272 00:17:38,062 --> 00:17:41,382 Speaker 3: four or five weeks after the killings, he moved in 273 00:17:41,462 --> 00:17:45,342 Speaker 3: and stayed with a cousin in the San Ferdeto Valley 274 00:17:45,422 --> 00:17:49,502 Speaker 3: suburb of la Basically, Eric was falling apart. He was 275 00:17:49,582 --> 00:17:53,982 Speaker 3: not partying like they showed in the Monsters series on Netflix. 276 00:17:54,422 --> 00:17:58,342 Speaker 3: Eric was suicidal. He was crying all day every day, 277 00:17:58,542 --> 00:18:03,342 Speaker 3: and finally, after about five weeks, his cousin recommended that 278 00:18:03,502 --> 00:18:07,342 Speaker 3: he go see doctor jo Oziel, who he knew from 279 00:18:07,382 --> 00:18:13,382 Speaker 3: the calvastis Burglaris therapy and so Eric called doctor Orzel 280 00:18:13,942 --> 00:18:18,142 Speaker 3: and made an appointment for Halloween on nineteen eighty nine, 281 00:18:18,742 --> 00:18:21,342 Speaker 3: and Eric told the doctor that he wanted to be 282 00:18:21,382 --> 00:18:24,662 Speaker 3: the lost appointment of the day. He didn't want to 283 00:18:24,942 --> 00:18:28,942 Speaker 3: see anybody else in the office, and so he went 284 00:18:28,982 --> 00:18:32,822 Speaker 3: to doctor Roziel as Lyle was passing out Halloween candy 285 00:18:33,502 --> 00:18:36,822 Speaker 3: at the menendous mansion in Beverly Hills with his girlfriend, 286 00:18:37,782 --> 00:18:41,622 Speaker 3: and so Eric and doctor Zil went out for a walk. 287 00:18:42,222 --> 00:18:44,582 Speaker 3: At the end of that walk, Eric lean back or 288 00:18:44,662 --> 00:18:48,702 Speaker 3: get some parking meter and said, we did it. And 289 00:18:49,182 --> 00:18:52,502 Speaker 3: doctor Ziel said, you mean you killed your parents and 290 00:18:52,622 --> 00:18:57,982 Speaker 3: Eric said yes. So doctor Rozil immediately wanted to call 291 00:18:58,062 --> 00:19:01,422 Speaker 3: Lyle and to have him come over to the office, 292 00:19:01,862 --> 00:19:05,782 Speaker 3: which he did, and Lyle obviously was very angry at 293 00:19:05,902 --> 00:19:14,342 Speaker 3: Eric or confessing, and Le really was terribly upset, you know. 294 00:19:14,782 --> 00:19:17,182 Speaker 3: He said to Eric, why didn't you just talk to me? 295 00:19:17,542 --> 00:19:20,342 Speaker 3: Why did you come to the therapist? Now he knows 296 00:19:21,142 --> 00:19:25,382 Speaker 3: and that could be a problem. And so both brothers 297 00:19:26,102 --> 00:19:30,382 Speaker 3: left doctor Ziel's office after about an hour. But in 298 00:19:30,582 --> 00:19:35,582 Speaker 3: a series of subsequent therapy sessions, doctor Roziel assured the 299 00:19:35,622 --> 00:19:39,782 Speaker 3: brothers that everything they said to him was privilege and 300 00:19:39,822 --> 00:19:43,662 Speaker 3: that he would not ever say anything to the police 301 00:19:44,022 --> 00:19:48,222 Speaker 3: because of that privilege. But there's a side story that 302 00:19:48,262 --> 00:19:52,422 Speaker 3: went on at this time, which was in doctor Roziel's 303 00:19:52,422 --> 00:19:57,342 Speaker 3: parsonal life. Jerry O'sdiel was married to another therapist, but 304 00:19:57,582 --> 00:20:00,422 Speaker 3: he had a girlfriend on the side named Judelon Smith. 305 00:20:00,782 --> 00:20:06,022 Speaker 3: Judelan Smith initially claimed she was in doctor Raziel's waiting 306 00:20:06,102 --> 00:20:11,182 Speaker 3: room and actually overheard the brothers confessed. I believe that 307 00:20:11,382 --> 00:20:15,342 Speaker 3: story is totally a true and that doctor Sells simply 308 00:20:15,382 --> 00:20:19,502 Speaker 3: guss with his girlfriend and total information that he never 309 00:20:19,582 --> 00:20:23,782 Speaker 3: should revealed as a therapist with any integrity? 310 00:20:24,462 --> 00:20:27,142 Speaker 1: Is that true in a therapy sense? If someone admits 311 00:20:27,182 --> 00:20:30,662 Speaker 1: to a crime, especially murder, in your presence, are you 312 00:20:30,742 --> 00:20:32,902 Speaker 1: still not allowed to go to police? Is that all 313 00:20:32,942 --> 00:20:34,182 Speaker 1: supposed to be confidential? 314 00:20:34,742 --> 00:20:38,582 Speaker 3: No, So, even if you confess to a murder, that 315 00:20:38,822 --> 00:20:43,742 Speaker 3: is self privileged. However, California has a law called the 316 00:20:43,822 --> 00:20:48,622 Speaker 3: Tarsoft Law which spells up the exceptions to the privilege. 317 00:20:49,262 --> 00:20:52,542 Speaker 3: And for example, if I go to a therapist tomorrow 318 00:20:52,662 --> 00:20:55,982 Speaker 3: and say I'm going to kill my girlfriend tomorrow, the 319 00:20:55,982 --> 00:20:58,902 Speaker 3: therapist is obligated to contact law enforcement. 320 00:20:59,662 --> 00:21:02,262 Speaker 1: A therapist would have to disclose the police if the 321 00:21:02,342 --> 00:21:05,142 Speaker 1: killing was about to happen, But if the killing has 322 00:21:05,142 --> 00:21:09,702 Speaker 1: already happened, then that's a different story. You're right, right, 323 00:21:09,742 --> 00:21:11,902 Speaker 1: So he doesn't have to tell anyone. He's actually under 324 00:21:11,902 --> 00:21:12,942 Speaker 1: oath not to tell anyone. 325 00:21:13,702 --> 00:21:18,622 Speaker 3: That is the privilege law in California. But there's another exception. 326 00:21:19,022 --> 00:21:22,622 Speaker 3: Under the tearsoft rule, and that is, if you threaten 327 00:21:22,742 --> 00:21:26,182 Speaker 3: your therapist, if you say I'm going to kill you, 328 00:21:26,342 --> 00:21:28,742 Speaker 3: I'm going to hurgh you, I'm going after your family, 329 00:21:29,182 --> 00:21:33,382 Speaker 3: the therapist is obligated to go to the police. And 330 00:21:33,462 --> 00:21:38,942 Speaker 3: so when Eric Menandez for leaving is off after one hour, 331 00:21:40,342 --> 00:21:44,942 Speaker 3: well Menandas shook Doc Rozel's hand and he said good 332 00:21:45,022 --> 00:21:49,502 Speaker 3: luck to Roziel. And according to Ozield, that was the threat. 333 00:21:50,262 --> 00:21:54,422 Speaker 3: You perceived that as a threat. That's how that information 334 00:21:54,742 --> 00:21:58,422 Speaker 3: was allowed in the trial. But there's one other thing 335 00:21:58,462 --> 00:22:01,942 Speaker 3: you should know about doctor Roziel. The defense claimed in 336 00:22:02,022 --> 00:22:07,782 Speaker 3: the first trial that o'zeal was blackmailing brothers because he 337 00:22:07,862 --> 00:22:11,142 Speaker 3: told them both, you both need therapy days a week, 338 00:22:11,742 --> 00:22:15,102 Speaker 3: and I'm going to be billing your family back East 339 00:22:15,662 --> 00:22:18,822 Speaker 3: for two therapy sessions a day, one for each of you. 340 00:22:19,062 --> 00:22:22,422 Speaker 3: And so the bills kept getting larger and larger, and 341 00:22:22,502 --> 00:22:26,622 Speaker 3: finally March Cando, Jose's sister in westwan Beach called the 342 00:22:26,662 --> 00:22:30,382 Speaker 3: brothers and said, do you really need ten thousand dollars 343 00:22:30,382 --> 00:22:35,022 Speaker 3: worth of therapy every week? And they told her they 344 00:22:35,062 --> 00:22:38,782 Speaker 3: insisted that the bills we paid and therapy was helping 345 00:22:38,822 --> 00:22:42,902 Speaker 3: them so much and in reality, Eric and Lyle Menendez 346 00:22:43,462 --> 00:22:46,662 Speaker 3: never showed up for a single appointment on the books. 347 00:22:47,382 --> 00:22:50,182 Speaker 1: Was it all of this stuff with Ozial that eventually 348 00:22:50,302 --> 00:22:51,062 Speaker 1: led to their arrest? 349 00:22:51,582 --> 00:22:54,902 Speaker 3: Yes. The way that Lyle and Eric Menande's were arrested 350 00:22:55,222 --> 00:22:59,222 Speaker 3: was that Judelan Smith was finally kicked out of the 351 00:22:59,262 --> 00:23:03,022 Speaker 3: house by doctor Ziel and his wife and the next 352 00:23:03,102 --> 00:23:05,902 Speaker 3: day she went to the Beverly Hill police and said, 353 00:23:06,062 --> 00:23:11,502 Speaker 3: Eric lyleman Ands killed their parents and doctor Dreaz has 354 00:23:11,782 --> 00:23:17,062 Speaker 3: some tapes in his safebox, including one tape with Erica 355 00:23:17,102 --> 00:23:22,582 Speaker 3: Lyles's confession that was recorded in December eighty nine, a 356 00:23:22,622 --> 00:23:27,782 Speaker 3: couple months after Eric Hurst contested Doctor Razel. So the 357 00:23:27,982 --> 00:23:31,382 Speaker 3: morning after Judelan Smith went to the Beverly Hills place, 358 00:23:31,942 --> 00:23:37,062 Speaker 3: the investigators conducted a search hoarm on doctor Rozel's house. 359 00:23:37,382 --> 00:23:41,382 Speaker 3: The entire team of police went to the Ouzel's house 360 00:23:42,102 --> 00:23:46,702 Speaker 3: and also there was what's called a special Master and 361 00:23:46,862 --> 00:23:51,862 Speaker 3: his job in a situation that involves possibly privileged material 362 00:23:52,302 --> 00:23:56,582 Speaker 3: is to hold onto the tapes and don't let anybody 363 00:23:56,622 --> 00:24:01,662 Speaker 3: hear the tapes because they would become a source of litigation. 364 00:24:02,182 --> 00:24:06,142 Speaker 3: In the days after the brothers were rushing doctor Rozil. 365 00:24:06,462 --> 00:24:09,342 Speaker 3: After they got the tapes from his safe found box, 366 00:24:09,502 --> 00:24:13,302 Speaker 3: he insisted that the police listened to the tapes immediately. 367 00:24:13,622 --> 00:24:17,462 Speaker 3: And doctor Zil is very upset and he said, there 368 00:24:17,502 --> 00:24:20,662 Speaker 3: are more people that are going to die tonight and 369 00:24:20,742 --> 00:24:23,222 Speaker 3: in the next few days if you don't hear these 370 00:24:23,262 --> 00:24:27,022 Speaker 3: tapes right now. And so the police were more than 371 00:24:27,062 --> 00:24:31,142 Speaker 3: happy to listen to the tapes in spite of what 372 00:24:31,302 --> 00:24:35,462 Speaker 3: the law said was this Special Master was a lawyer, 373 00:24:35,622 --> 00:24:39,822 Speaker 3: was supposed to seize the tapes keep them in his possession, 374 00:24:40,222 --> 00:24:44,702 Speaker 3: and so there would likely be litigation later. They listened 375 00:24:44,702 --> 00:24:48,462 Speaker 3: to the tapes in doctor Ziel's living room than the 376 00:24:48,502 --> 00:24:53,942 Speaker 3: afternoon on the search and a few hours later MENANDUS arrested. 377 00:24:54,862 --> 00:24:58,822 Speaker 3: Eric was in Israel in a test tournament and he 378 00:24:58,942 --> 00:25:03,102 Speaker 3: actually made it out of Israel to London before Interpol 379 00:25:03,262 --> 00:25:07,382 Speaker 3: came knocking on his door in Israel. So Eric was 380 00:25:08,382 --> 00:25:13,942 Speaker 3: actually in London known to interpoal for several days with 381 00:25:14,102 --> 00:25:18,182 Speaker 3: his test coach, Mark Vernan. The family hired Robert Spiro, 382 00:25:18,462 --> 00:25:23,102 Speaker 3: a lawyer that from the O. J. Simpson case, and 383 00:25:23,422 --> 00:25:28,022 Speaker 3: Robert Spiro made a horrible mistake. He had Eric come 384 00:25:28,062 --> 00:25:32,862 Speaker 3: back and surrender in Los Angeles. Eric flew from London 385 00:25:32,942 --> 00:25:36,302 Speaker 3: to Miami. He met his aunt Markcano and her son 386 00:25:36,382 --> 00:25:39,982 Speaker 3: Andy Cano, who became well known for his testimony in 387 00:25:40,022 --> 00:25:43,302 Speaker 3: the first trial and also because of some of the 388 00:25:43,342 --> 00:25:47,302 Speaker 3: new evidence. Is a letter Eric Menendez wrote to Andy 389 00:25:47,382 --> 00:25:52,142 Speaker 3: Cano in late nineteen eighty eight complaining about the ongoing 390 00:25:52,182 --> 00:25:56,382 Speaker 3: sexual abuse by his father. If Eric Menandez had simply 391 00:25:56,542 --> 00:26:00,062 Speaker 3: walked into a police station, any police station in London 392 00:26:00,222 --> 00:26:03,542 Speaker 3: and surrendered, it would have been a condition of his 393 00:26:03,902 --> 00:26:07,982 Speaker 3: extradition that he not be eligible for the death family 394 00:26:08,462 --> 00:26:12,542 Speaker 3: because the UK does not have the deathly and so 395 00:26:12,702 --> 00:26:17,902 Speaker 3: by having Eric returned to Los Angeles and director, he 396 00:26:17,982 --> 00:26:21,502 Speaker 3: made him eligible for the death Oh my gosh, and 397 00:26:21,622 --> 00:26:26,742 Speaker 3: so that's insane. When the family found out about all this, 398 00:26:26,942 --> 00:26:29,782 Speaker 3: they fired Robert Shapiro two or three weeks after he 399 00:26:29,902 --> 00:26:34,502 Speaker 3: was hired, and they hired Leslie Eberson, which was a 400 00:26:34,542 --> 00:26:38,862 Speaker 3: great move by them because watching her in court was 401 00:26:39,302 --> 00:26:43,542 Speaker 3: like watching great theater. She is such an effective advocate. 402 00:26:43,942 --> 00:26:48,662 Speaker 3: She represented Rickman and the younger brother, and attorney named 403 00:26:48,702 --> 00:26:54,222 Speaker 3: Jill Lansing represented Lyeleman and Hiss, and both of the 404 00:26:54,262 --> 00:26:58,622 Speaker 3: defense attorneys were equally effective and very powerful in court, 405 00:26:59,622 --> 00:27:04,942 Speaker 3: but Leslie Eberson got the majority of Polissy simply because 406 00:27:04,982 --> 00:27:08,062 Speaker 3: she was so colorful, and there would be a news 407 00:27:08,062 --> 00:27:12,382 Speaker 3: conference daily during the trial in which the prosecution would 408 00:27:12,422 --> 00:27:15,942 Speaker 3: talk for fifteen minutes and then the deftt Jurneys would 409 00:27:15,942 --> 00:27:20,102 Speaker 3: talk for fifteen minutes. But Joe Lansing was equal to 410 00:27:20,422 --> 00:27:24,742 Speaker 3: Lessie Aberson in the power she had and how effective 411 00:27:24,862 --> 00:27:25,262 Speaker 3: she was. 412 00:27:25,862 --> 00:27:27,382 Speaker 1: Leslie was just more charismatic. 413 00:27:27,542 --> 00:27:31,702 Speaker 3: I guess me and love Leslie, and Leslie was very 414 00:27:32,782 --> 00:27:35,742 Speaker 3: powerful in her TV appearances. 415 00:27:36,022 --> 00:27:39,742 Speaker 1: Robert, what was the reaction like from the public when 416 00:27:39,742 --> 00:27:41,942 Speaker 1: the brothers were arrested and how did you feel about 417 00:27:41,942 --> 00:27:44,662 Speaker 1: it you interviewed them, How did you feel when they 418 00:27:44,662 --> 00:27:46,422 Speaker 1: were arrested and charged with murder. 419 00:27:47,622 --> 00:27:51,102 Speaker 3: By the time they were arrested, I knew that they 420 00:27:51,142 --> 00:27:55,502 Speaker 3: were the soul and the only suspects. I kept in 421 00:27:55,582 --> 00:27:59,182 Speaker 3: close such with their aunt march Caano. She knew they 422 00:27:59,222 --> 00:28:02,742 Speaker 3: were the primary suspects, but she told me that there's 423 00:28:02,782 --> 00:28:06,222 Speaker 3: no way Erica Lyle had any do with killing of 424 00:28:06,382 --> 00:28:10,982 Speaker 3: the parents. I had continued speaking to my sources in 425 00:28:11,022 --> 00:28:15,142 Speaker 3: the home video business and they maintained the same thing 426 00:28:15,262 --> 00:28:21,302 Speaker 3: they told me. In August nineteen eighty nine, the killings 427 00:28:21,342 --> 00:28:24,502 Speaker 3: that they thought had no connection to hel media business. 428 00:28:24,942 --> 00:28:28,422 Speaker 3: And so I really was certain about two or three 429 00:28:28,462 --> 00:28:31,742 Speaker 3: weeks before the arrest that their brothers were about to 430 00:28:31,782 --> 00:28:36,022 Speaker 3: be arrested. And on the day that while I was rust, 431 00:28:36,822 --> 00:28:39,342 Speaker 3: I was actually in westbom Beach having lunch with their aunt, 432 00:28:39,462 --> 00:28:44,422 Speaker 3: Marx Canada, and we talked almost the entire lunch about 433 00:28:44,542 --> 00:28:48,222 Speaker 3: how the brothers were the primary and only suspects, but 434 00:28:48,782 --> 00:28:51,862 Speaker 3: missus Canner told me there was no possible way they 435 00:28:51,862 --> 00:28:55,182 Speaker 3: were involved in this crime. And so I left her 436 00:28:55,222 --> 00:28:58,942 Speaker 3: office at the Smith party, and I stopped by my 437 00:28:59,142 --> 00:29:03,702 Speaker 3: mother's house in Palm Beach to nineteen nineties technology pick 438 00:29:03,782 --> 00:29:07,542 Speaker 3: up my phone messages, and there was a frantic message 439 00:29:07,582 --> 00:29:11,782 Speaker 3: from the Miami Herald that said Lamanas had just been 440 00:29:11,902 --> 00:29:16,302 Speaker 3: arrested in Beverly Hills, Rickman and were somewhere in Europe 441 00:29:16,342 --> 00:29:21,102 Speaker 3: and Interpowal with search for him. And so I was 442 00:29:21,142 --> 00:29:25,222 Speaker 3: only three blocks away from March Canter office, and so 443 00:29:25,382 --> 00:29:29,342 Speaker 3: I went back there and she saw me come off 444 00:29:29,382 --> 00:29:32,542 Speaker 3: the elevator and her face dropped and she was very, 445 00:29:32,662 --> 00:29:36,422 Speaker 3: very emotional, and before I said a word, she knew 446 00:29:36,902 --> 00:29:37,822 Speaker 3: what had happened. 447 00:29:38,102 --> 00:29:42,022 Speaker 1: How did the brothers end up disclosing about their family 448 00:29:42,142 --> 00:29:45,102 Speaker 1: secrets to their lawyers because it was quite a fair 449 00:29:45,182 --> 00:29:49,142 Speaker 1: way into their prisons day after their arrest, wasn't it. 450 00:29:49,142 --> 00:29:52,142 Speaker 3: It was about six or eight months after the rest, 451 00:29:52,342 --> 00:29:56,062 Speaker 3: and the brother's attitude was they never wanted to reveal 452 00:29:56,782 --> 00:30:01,702 Speaker 3: any of the family students. Once the lead defense therapy, 453 00:30:01,742 --> 00:30:06,142 Speaker 3: a sarchitecture of Bill Vickery, had interviewed them and gotten 454 00:30:06,422 --> 00:30:10,902 Speaker 3: information out of them, they confessed to their family members, 455 00:30:11,262 --> 00:30:16,622 Speaker 3: which had always supported them, and the defense journeys told 456 00:30:16,662 --> 00:30:21,222 Speaker 3: the brothers, I'm sorry, but you are facing the death 457 00:30:21,262 --> 00:30:23,782 Speaker 3: only and if you don't tell the whole story to 458 00:30:23,862 --> 00:30:26,342 Speaker 3: the juries. There were two jerrys in the first trial, 459 00:30:26,422 --> 00:30:29,462 Speaker 3: one for each brother because some evidence only applied to 460 00:30:29,502 --> 00:30:34,022 Speaker 3: one or the other. But the defense atturneys told the brothers, 461 00:30:34,422 --> 00:30:38,022 Speaker 3: you are facing the deathitely. You may end up getting 462 00:30:38,102 --> 00:30:41,862 Speaker 3: the death only unless you are willing to testify about 463 00:30:41,862 --> 00:30:45,502 Speaker 3: what really happened in your family. And so that was 464 00:30:45,542 --> 00:30:48,942 Speaker 3: a pretty strong set up for the brothers and they 465 00:30:48,942 --> 00:30:54,302 Speaker 3: were unwilling, but they did testify in detail. It was excruciating. 466 00:30:54,942 --> 00:30:57,222 Speaker 3: I was in the court roomind one of the twelve 467 00:30:57,382 --> 00:31:01,742 Speaker 3: reserve of seats. There were two hundred other recorders that 468 00:31:01,982 --> 00:31:05,582 Speaker 3: watched a video feed at the trial, and it is 469 00:31:05,662 --> 00:31:08,782 Speaker 3: a totally different experience to actually be in the courtroom 470 00:31:09,222 --> 00:31:12,382 Speaker 3: twenty feet away from the witness and as opposed to 471 00:31:12,382 --> 00:31:15,902 Speaker 3: watching a video feed. That's the experience I had. 472 00:31:16,502 --> 00:31:19,022 Speaker 1: Robert. Can you tell us about what happened to the 473 00:31:19,022 --> 00:31:22,102 Speaker 1: brothers and how early this started, because this is something 474 00:31:22,182 --> 00:31:25,822 Speaker 1: that had underpinned well Eric's entire life. 475 00:31:25,902 --> 00:31:31,382 Speaker 3: Really, Lyele Menandus was six year old when his father 476 00:31:31,622 --> 00:31:35,222 Speaker 3: started telling them stories. They would sit around and go 477 00:31:35,582 --> 00:31:39,022 Speaker 3: in a bedroom with the doory life and Jose Menendez 478 00:31:39,662 --> 00:31:44,702 Speaker 3: told Lyle that Greek and Roman soldiers used to have 479 00:31:44,822 --> 00:31:48,742 Speaker 3: sex with each other before battles to make them strong. 480 00:31:49,822 --> 00:31:56,462 Speaker 3: And so Jose began to initially give Lyle massages, and 481 00:31:56,502 --> 00:32:01,782 Speaker 3: then the massages turned sexual, and as you can imagine, 482 00:32:01,902 --> 00:32:05,502 Speaker 3: it was very confusing her six year old, who has 483 00:32:05,582 --> 00:32:08,982 Speaker 3: no point of reference for what was going on. Lyle 484 00:32:09,422 --> 00:32:13,382 Speaker 3: loved his father, He looked up to him. He thought 485 00:32:13,422 --> 00:32:16,542 Speaker 3: so much of him, you know, he went along with it. 486 00:32:17,262 --> 00:32:20,782 Speaker 3: So Lyle was molested by Jose for about two and 487 00:32:20,782 --> 00:32:24,262 Speaker 3: a half years, between six and eight and a half 488 00:32:24,342 --> 00:32:25,142 Speaker 3: years old. 489 00:32:25,382 --> 00:32:27,782 Speaker 1: Why do you want to make him happy, so he 490 00:32:27,782 --> 00:32:28,342 Speaker 1: would love me. 491 00:32:29,622 --> 00:32:33,422 Speaker 3: And between the ages of six and eight, did your 492 00:32:33,462 --> 00:32:35,942 Speaker 3: father have sexual contact with you? 493 00:32:36,942 --> 00:32:37,342 Speaker 5: Yes? 494 00:32:38,902 --> 00:32:40,022 Speaker 2: And how did it start. 495 00:32:40,822 --> 00:32:43,582 Speaker 6: We would have these talks and he would show me 496 00:32:44,222 --> 00:32:48,022 Speaker 6: and he would fondle me, and he would ask me 497 00:32:48,062 --> 00:32:50,422 Speaker 6: to do the same with him, and I would touch 498 00:32:50,462 --> 00:32:54,942 Speaker 6: him and we would undress hey bright me. 499 00:32:55,542 --> 00:33:01,662 Speaker 3: And then the abusive Lyle stopped and the abuse of 500 00:33:01,782 --> 00:33:06,982 Speaker 3: Eric began. And what's unusual about Eric story is that 501 00:33:07,022 --> 00:33:11,782 Speaker 3: the abuse is still going on in August nineteen eighty nine, 502 00:33:12,302 --> 00:33:16,502 Speaker 3: two weeks before the killings. That's just horrible. There was 503 00:33:16,942 --> 00:33:20,622 Speaker 3: a serious confrontations in the days leading up to the 504 00:33:20,702 --> 00:33:24,942 Speaker 3: killing of Jose and Kiddy Menendez, and for the first 505 00:33:24,982 --> 00:33:29,382 Speaker 3: time since the brothers had been thirteen, they once had 506 00:33:29,422 --> 00:33:34,702 Speaker 3: a brief discussion about the molization when Eric was thirteen 507 00:33:34,742 --> 00:33:39,502 Speaker 3: and Viio was sixteen. Lyle thought that all the abuse 508 00:33:39,862 --> 00:33:44,182 Speaker 3: had stopped because that's what Jose told him, and the 509 00:33:44,262 --> 00:33:48,222 Speaker 3: same thing happened to Eric. Eric loved the attention by 510 00:33:48,262 --> 00:33:52,862 Speaker 3: his father because he loved his father, and Jose started 511 00:33:52,902 --> 00:33:56,862 Speaker 3: with the stories of freaking Roman soldiers bonding before battle, 512 00:33:57,942 --> 00:34:03,582 Speaker 3: and he initially started getting Eric presages, and then the 513 00:34:03,582 --> 00:34:08,942 Speaker 3: massages turned sexual and once again, Eric was very confused 514 00:34:09,382 --> 00:34:12,822 Speaker 3: because he was six seven years old, but he knew 515 00:34:12,862 --> 00:34:16,182 Speaker 3: he did like all the attention from his father. But 516 00:34:17,022 --> 00:34:22,102 Speaker 3: there are hundreds of eyewitnesses to fiscal, rugal and emotional 517 00:34:22,142 --> 00:34:25,542 Speaker 3: abuse that went on in the mine his family by 518 00:34:25,622 --> 00:34:28,862 Speaker 3: Jose to his sons and so, as I said, it 519 00:34:28,942 --> 00:34:32,502 Speaker 3: was very confusing for the brothers what was having. On 520 00:34:32,542 --> 00:34:36,782 Speaker 3: the second hand, when the sexual abuse became more serious 521 00:34:37,302 --> 00:34:41,182 Speaker 3: and Jose began raping the brothers, they asked him to 522 00:34:41,342 --> 00:34:44,742 Speaker 3: police stop, you know, referring them. They didn't want to 523 00:34:44,742 --> 00:34:50,462 Speaker 3: do this. And Jose actually had a very active sech 524 00:34:50,622 --> 00:34:53,622 Speaker 3: like he had a buffet of sexuality going on. And 525 00:34:53,702 --> 00:34:57,022 Speaker 3: one of the therapists told me that it's quite common 526 00:34:57,622 --> 00:35:02,462 Speaker 3: for child abusers to have an entire buffet of sexuality. 527 00:35:02,942 --> 00:35:05,782 Speaker 3: Jose had a mistress in New York, he had a 528 00:35:05,822 --> 00:35:10,102 Speaker 3: mistress in la He was using three different matters in 529 00:35:10,822 --> 00:35:16,782 Speaker 3: Hollywood to supply him with prostitutes, and so in addition 530 00:35:16,862 --> 00:35:19,622 Speaker 3: to the brothers, he had a lot of other things 531 00:35:19,862 --> 00:35:24,702 Speaker 3: going on. Secially, one third of kids who were abused 532 00:35:25,022 --> 00:35:28,622 Speaker 3: go on to become abusers themselves, which is. 533 00:35:28,542 --> 00:35:31,502 Speaker 1: A detail that comes to light in the trial that 534 00:35:31,862 --> 00:35:35,422 Speaker 1: Lyle actually abused Eric in one instance. 535 00:35:35,302 --> 00:35:38,462 Speaker 3: Yes, but they were six and eight years old. So, 536 00:35:39,782 --> 00:35:43,062 Speaker 3: in spite of Ryan Murphy or anybody connects it to 537 00:35:43,982 --> 00:35:49,022 Speaker 3: a Netflix series speaks about it was certainly not adults 538 00:35:49,062 --> 00:35:53,062 Speaker 3: having a sexual relationship. I know the story told the 539 00:35:53,222 --> 00:35:57,782 Speaker 3: Monsters of Eric and Lyle having an ancessureus relationship is 540 00:35:57,862 --> 00:36:03,302 Speaker 3: totally false and I can't understand where that came from. 541 00:36:03,342 --> 00:36:06,702 Speaker 1: How does Kitty come into all of this? Jose was 542 00:36:06,742 --> 00:36:08,702 Speaker 1: the one that was abusing the boys. 543 00:36:09,182 --> 00:36:13,822 Speaker 3: Correct, did she know? Yes? In the series of confrontations 544 00:36:13,862 --> 00:36:17,182 Speaker 3: in the days leading up to the killings of the parents, 545 00:36:17,862 --> 00:36:22,062 Speaker 3: some of the confrontations were between Lyle and Kitty Menendez, 546 00:36:22,982 --> 00:36:26,862 Speaker 3: and at one point Katy became so angry with him 547 00:36:27,582 --> 00:36:31,942 Speaker 3: that she literally ripped off his two pay in front 548 00:36:31,942 --> 00:36:35,982 Speaker 3: of Eric, and Eric didn't even know that war to pay, 549 00:36:36,862 --> 00:36:41,742 Speaker 3: and Jose insisted that his seventeen year old son get 550 00:36:41,822 --> 00:36:44,222 Speaker 3: a two pay because his hair was starting to thin, 551 00:36:45,062 --> 00:36:48,262 Speaker 3: and Jose told him, you're going to prison, you will 552 00:36:48,302 --> 00:36:52,022 Speaker 3: meet important people that you will know for your entire life, 553 00:36:53,022 --> 00:36:55,742 Speaker 3: so therefore you have to have a head of good hair. 554 00:36:56,822 --> 00:37:00,862 Speaker 3: And as we think about it now, to force a 555 00:37:00,982 --> 00:37:05,662 Speaker 3: seventeen year old to get it to pay is really horrible. 556 00:37:06,462 --> 00:37:09,302 Speaker 3: I have an eighteen year old son. I can't imagine 557 00:37:09,742 --> 00:37:13,342 Speaker 3: having that kind of relationship with him. Rootaino. One day, 558 00:37:13,502 --> 00:37:16,382 Speaker 3: you know, you really need better hair, so let's go 559 00:37:16,502 --> 00:37:16,942 Speaker 3: get you some. 560 00:37:17,422 --> 00:37:19,902 Speaker 1: That's a way to make you feel self conscious. 561 00:37:19,982 --> 00:37:25,502 Speaker 3: Right, And what Jose wanted was he wanted Lyle to 562 00:37:25,582 --> 00:37:30,662 Speaker 3: be the new and improved version of Jose. Jose dreamed 563 00:37:30,702 --> 00:37:34,942 Speaker 3: of going to an Ivy League college, but he went 564 00:37:35,102 --> 00:37:40,062 Speaker 3: school at Queen's College, you know, smaller local community college 565 00:37:40,462 --> 00:37:43,302 Speaker 3: in Queens. I mean it's still a very good school, 566 00:37:43,462 --> 00:37:48,062 Speaker 3: but it's not the Ivy League. And so Lyle, who 567 00:37:48,102 --> 00:37:51,502 Speaker 3: was a national reg test player, applied to person and 568 00:37:51,662 --> 00:37:56,102 Speaker 3: he got in because of his tennis skills. So by 569 00:37:56,142 --> 00:38:00,222 Speaker 3: having Lyle go to an IVY League school, Jose was 570 00:38:00,262 --> 00:38:03,222 Speaker 3: realizing his own dreams through Lyle. 571 00:38:03,862 --> 00:38:07,942 Speaker 1: Once the boys go to trial, what is the defense 572 00:38:08,302 --> 00:38:12,782 Speaker 1: trying to prove? Because Lyle and Eric admit to killing 573 00:38:12,822 --> 00:38:16,262 Speaker 1: their parents, but then they told his story about what 574 00:38:16,302 --> 00:38:19,902 Speaker 1: they went through. Is that why they say they killed 575 00:38:19,902 --> 00:38:20,742 Speaker 1: their parents. 576 00:38:21,262 --> 00:38:25,102 Speaker 3: Eric and Lyle Menendez had a series of conversations in 577 00:38:25,142 --> 00:38:28,462 Speaker 3: the days leading up to the killing of their parents, 578 00:38:28,982 --> 00:38:33,142 Speaker 3: and in these conversations, which became more heated each day, 579 00:38:34,262 --> 00:38:37,862 Speaker 3: Lyle threatened to go to the relatives, go to the police, 580 00:38:38,062 --> 00:38:42,782 Speaker 3: and reveal the molisation of Eric that was still ongoing 581 00:38:43,382 --> 00:38:48,382 Speaker 3: in August nineteen eighty nine. And in the final confrontation 582 00:38:48,742 --> 00:38:52,622 Speaker 3: between the brothers and their parents Sunday evening August twentieth 583 00:38:53,262 --> 00:38:56,342 Speaker 3: eighty nine, they said they wanted to go to the 584 00:38:56,342 --> 00:39:00,062 Speaker 3: movies and leave the house, and the parents said they 585 00:39:00,062 --> 00:39:03,542 Speaker 3: couldn't go out. And then Jose said a phrase to 586 00:39:03,782 --> 00:39:07,502 Speaker 3: Eric which was a code word, and the phrase was 587 00:39:08,342 --> 00:39:11,342 Speaker 3: go upstairs to your room and wait for me. And 588 00:39:11,422 --> 00:39:14,822 Speaker 3: what that meant was that I'm going to come upstairs 589 00:39:15,182 --> 00:39:19,222 Speaker 3: and molest you in a few minutes, So go upstairs 590 00:39:19,262 --> 00:39:23,342 Speaker 3: and wait for me. And so that was what freaked 591 00:39:23,342 --> 00:39:28,742 Speaker 3: out the brothers, and they had purchased two shotguns on 592 00:39:29,262 --> 00:39:33,902 Speaker 3: Friday afternoon. The defense theory of the case was called 593 00:39:34,342 --> 00:39:38,862 Speaker 3: an imperfect self defense. The legal theory was not we 594 00:39:38,862 --> 00:39:41,662 Speaker 3: were abused, so we killed our parents to pay them back. 595 00:39:42,462 --> 00:39:46,782 Speaker 3: The actual legal theory was Eric, Letomanandez were in fear 596 00:39:46,862 --> 00:39:50,302 Speaker 3: for their lives at the moment they shot their parents. 597 00:39:50,742 --> 00:39:53,622 Speaker 3: And as I say that that is called an imperfect 598 00:39:53,702 --> 00:39:58,342 Speaker 3: self defense, and Judge Samley Weisberg with the crowd. Judge 599 00:39:59,182 --> 00:40:04,182 Speaker 3: let the defense put on fifty three witnesses, teachers, coaches, 600 00:40:04,422 --> 00:40:08,742 Speaker 3: family friends, relatives who all had bits and pieces of 601 00:40:08,782 --> 00:40:13,422 Speaker 3: a puzzle. In the first trial, half the members of 602 00:40:13,542 --> 00:40:17,822 Speaker 3: each jury, all the women, voted for manslaughter and wooden budget, 603 00:40:18,382 --> 00:40:22,422 Speaker 3: and half the jurors, all the men, voted for murder. 604 00:40:22,742 --> 00:40:25,742 Speaker 3: And I interviewed off twenty four jurors at the first trial, 605 00:40:26,222 --> 00:40:28,942 Speaker 3: and all the men told me some version of well, 606 00:40:28,982 --> 00:40:31,662 Speaker 3: a father would never do that to his sons because it. 607 00:40:31,622 --> 00:40:33,382 Speaker 1: Was a different time, wasn't it. 608 00:40:33,382 --> 00:40:36,582 Speaker 3: It's not like today, and that's the way, sadly was 609 00:40:36,662 --> 00:40:39,822 Speaker 3: thirty years ago. Today we have social media, we have 610 00:40:39,902 --> 00:40:43,582 Speaker 3: the Internet. Dependents can fight back and try to get 611 00:40:43,622 --> 00:40:46,982 Speaker 3: out their case much easier than you could back then. 612 00:40:47,822 --> 00:40:51,182 Speaker 1: Well, the boys' defense, you know what they'd been through, 613 00:40:51,222 --> 00:40:54,342 Speaker 1: this horrible abuse, was kind of turned into a bit 614 00:40:54,342 --> 00:40:57,262 Speaker 1: of a joke by the media of the time, not you, 615 00:40:57,382 --> 00:40:59,902 Speaker 1: of course, but there was a sitcom kind of version 616 00:40:59,942 --> 00:41:02,542 Speaker 1: of it, and they kind of called it the Sweater defense. 617 00:41:02,662 --> 00:41:02,782 Speaker 5: Like it. 618 00:41:03,062 --> 00:41:04,982 Speaker 1: It's quite hard to watch back. 619 00:41:05,622 --> 00:41:09,982 Speaker 3: It's so wild for me to watch those videos from 620 00:41:10,022 --> 00:41:15,582 Speaker 3: the Saturday at Live, the comedy show It's very popular, 621 00:41:15,702 --> 00:41:18,302 Speaker 3: did a couple of sketches in which they just mocked 622 00:41:18,382 --> 00:41:19,422 Speaker 3: the brothers. 623 00:41:19,662 --> 00:41:24,222 Speaker 5: My father said Danny and Jose Junior didn't deserve to 624 00:41:24,222 --> 00:41:29,382 Speaker 5: have any official records of their existence because they were 625 00:41:29,422 --> 00:41:31,622 Speaker 5: weak and not good tennis players. 626 00:41:33,782 --> 00:41:37,062 Speaker 3: Jay Leno on the Tonight Show NBC in the States 627 00:41:37,222 --> 00:41:42,862 Speaker 3: did a number of skits including you mentioned the Menendez sitcom. 628 00:41:43,102 --> 00:41:45,862 Speaker 3: Jay Leno came on one night and say, we have 629 00:41:45,942 --> 00:41:49,342 Speaker 3: an exclusive video of the new opening of the new 630 00:41:49,382 --> 00:41:54,702 Speaker 3: Menanda sitcom which is going to appear on NBC. And 631 00:41:54,742 --> 00:41:57,102 Speaker 3: it's horrible for me to look back now and see 632 00:41:57,102 --> 00:42:02,462 Speaker 3: those videos that we were so insensitive as a society back then. 633 00:42:02,542 --> 00:42:05,142 Speaker 1: Because regardless of whether you know, and there are plenty 634 00:42:05,182 --> 00:42:07,262 Speaker 1: of people out there that think the boys were lying 635 00:42:07,542 --> 00:42:09,982 Speaker 1: about their story. And even if you did sit on 636 00:42:09,982 --> 00:42:14,022 Speaker 1: that can to make fun of allegations like this in 637 00:42:14,062 --> 00:42:16,862 Speaker 1: a public sphere in front of you know, hundreds of 638 00:42:16,862 --> 00:42:19,982 Speaker 1: other potential victims that are watching, there was just so 639 00:42:20,142 --> 00:42:21,902 Speaker 1: much wrong with that, right. 640 00:42:22,062 --> 00:42:26,062 Speaker 3: And one interesting factory is that every day in Laveman 641 00:42:26,382 --> 00:42:29,662 Speaker 3: is the older brother test ride on the witness and 642 00:42:30,462 --> 00:42:34,462 Speaker 3: he carried a letter in his pocket from a different 643 00:42:34,502 --> 00:42:37,862 Speaker 3: abuse survivor that they had written him. And in fact, 644 00:42:38,262 --> 00:42:41,422 Speaker 3: at the height of their popularity in the nineteen ninety 645 00:42:41,422 --> 00:42:45,902 Speaker 3: three trial, the brothers were receiving a thousand letters a 646 00:42:45,942 --> 00:42:50,342 Speaker 3: week wow, and half of them were from abuse serrivors 647 00:42:50,742 --> 00:42:54,782 Speaker 3: and the other half were from groupies that thought, Wow, 648 00:42:54,902 --> 00:42:57,422 Speaker 3: they could be acquitted and they'll be rich. So I 649 00:42:57,502 --> 00:43:00,022 Speaker 3: want to meet them. And so when I would go 650 00:43:00,142 --> 00:43:04,262 Speaker 3: to the Ellen County jail to visit them on weekends, 651 00:43:04,662 --> 00:43:07,822 Speaker 3: I would see strangers, you know, women lined up hoping, 652 00:43:08,022 --> 00:43:11,582 Speaker 3: hoping to get in and miss them. They never did 653 00:43:11,942 --> 00:43:15,462 Speaker 3: because they were on the visitor list that the brothers 654 00:43:15,462 --> 00:43:18,142 Speaker 3: had drawn up. But I was aware of all the 655 00:43:18,222 --> 00:43:22,262 Speaker 3: groupies that were following the case. The courtroom where the 656 00:43:22,262 --> 00:43:26,102 Speaker 3: trial was held was very small, and so at three 657 00:43:26,102 --> 00:43:29,702 Speaker 3: point thirty in the morning, the groupies would form a line, 658 00:43:30,222 --> 00:43:33,502 Speaker 3: and maybe ten of them a day would actually get 659 00:43:33,502 --> 00:43:33,942 Speaker 3: in the. 660 00:43:34,222 --> 00:43:36,142 Speaker 1: Courtroom, gosh, like celebrities. 661 00:43:36,582 --> 00:43:39,982 Speaker 3: And there's one scene in Monsters that is actually true, 662 00:43:40,302 --> 00:43:43,902 Speaker 3: and that is you see Lomanns walk out of a 663 00:43:44,022 --> 00:43:47,622 Speaker 3: van from the trial back to the jail, and there's 664 00:43:47,662 --> 00:43:51,982 Speaker 3: a woman holding a sign and John sigin saying, marry me, Lyle, 665 00:43:52,422 --> 00:43:55,862 Speaker 3: and I really saw that it really happened. 666 00:43:56,222 --> 00:43:59,582 Speaker 1: Tell me about the trial that actually led to the 667 00:43:59,582 --> 00:44:03,062 Speaker 1: boy's conviction, because it was very, very different to that 668 00:44:03,142 --> 00:44:05,502 Speaker 1: original one that we're talking about that had all of 669 00:44:05,502 --> 00:44:08,222 Speaker 1: the witnesses that allowed the boys to tell their story. 670 00:44:08,862 --> 00:44:09,822 Speaker 1: How different was it? 671 00:44:10,502 --> 00:44:13,342 Speaker 3: The second trial was very different. And I don't blame 672 00:44:13,422 --> 00:44:17,782 Speaker 3: the jury for reaching the verdict they did because they 673 00:44:17,822 --> 00:44:22,342 Speaker 3: heard a completely different set of evidence than the jurors 674 00:44:22,342 --> 00:44:25,702 Speaker 3: in the first trial. And the first thing the judge 675 00:44:25,702 --> 00:44:28,982 Speaker 3: did was he kicked the tea camera out of the courtroom. 676 00:44:29,342 --> 00:44:33,382 Speaker 3: The first show was broadcast Gable of Gabble, even the 677 00:44:33,382 --> 00:44:37,862 Speaker 3: Evidence series on cor TV. The judge kicked the camera 678 00:44:37,982 --> 00:44:41,142 Speaker 3: out of the court room because he knew that there 679 00:44:41,222 --> 00:44:44,942 Speaker 3: was no video, that the media coverage would go way down. 680 00:44:45,342 --> 00:44:50,342 Speaker 3: And after he did that, he basically rehearsed almost all 681 00:44:50,382 --> 00:44:54,502 Speaker 3: of his evidence rolling in the first trial. So Judge 682 00:44:54,502 --> 00:45:01,382 Speaker 3: Weishborg would not allow all the family friends' coaches who 683 00:45:01,462 --> 00:45:05,102 Speaker 3: knew the brothers well satisfied in the second trial. And 684 00:45:05,262 --> 00:45:08,942 Speaker 3: Weisberg ruled that way because he said, you know, any 685 00:45:08,982 --> 00:45:12,542 Speaker 3: evidence of their abuse is not rellant to this trial, 686 00:45:13,342 --> 00:45:17,142 Speaker 3: which is totally the opposite instruction he gave at the 687 00:45:17,262 --> 00:45:20,862 Speaker 3: end of his trial. One other important thing, Lyelman Anders 688 00:45:20,902 --> 00:45:25,102 Speaker 3: did not testify in the second trial for a variety 689 00:45:25,102 --> 00:45:28,662 Speaker 3: of reasons, but the main one was that his journey 690 00:45:28,862 --> 00:45:32,422 Speaker 3: Jill Lansing had resigned from the case and Lyle had 691 00:45:32,462 --> 00:45:36,782 Speaker 3: developed such a close bottom with her that he really said, 692 00:45:37,062 --> 00:45:41,462 Speaker 3: I can't go on or I can't test for dancing. 693 00:45:41,702 --> 00:45:42,502 Speaker 3: Is my attorney? 694 00:45:43,142 --> 00:45:44,982 Speaker 1: Well, you'd have to build that whole relationship again with 695 00:45:45,022 --> 00:45:47,622 Speaker 1: a new lawyer and tell them everything. And you can 696 00:45:47,702 --> 00:45:49,382 Speaker 1: understand that is. 697 00:45:49,422 --> 00:45:54,262 Speaker 3: A very traumatic experience for any of youse survivor who 698 00:45:54,382 --> 00:45:58,382 Speaker 3: actually come forward and tell their life experience. 699 00:45:59,182 --> 00:46:03,262 Speaker 1: After that second trial, the brothers were given life without parole. 700 00:46:03,782 --> 00:46:05,902 Speaker 1: And obviously we've spoken about there was an option in 701 00:46:05,942 --> 00:46:08,222 Speaker 1: that first trial for them to get to manslaughter to 702 00:46:08,262 --> 00:46:10,302 Speaker 1: only be in prison for a few years, but they've 703 00:46:10,542 --> 00:46:13,062 Speaker 1: been in prison for over three decades. 704 00:46:13,102 --> 00:46:13,422 Speaker 3: Now. 705 00:46:13,942 --> 00:46:15,782 Speaker 1: Do you believe that that was a fair sentence. 706 00:46:16,302 --> 00:46:19,742 Speaker 3: No, the correct verdict in this trial should have been manslaughter, 707 00:46:20,302 --> 00:46:24,382 Speaker 3: not murder. If the brothers had been conducted at manslaughter, 708 00:46:24,582 --> 00:46:27,342 Speaker 3: as half the jurors voted for in the first trial, 709 00:46:28,462 --> 00:46:31,542 Speaker 3: they would have been sentenced to twenty two years in prison. 710 00:46:32,102 --> 00:46:37,062 Speaker 3: They've now been incarcerated for almost thirty five years, so 711 00:46:37,302 --> 00:46:40,342 Speaker 3: in other words, they would have been out of prison 712 00:46:40,942 --> 00:46:43,862 Speaker 3: after twenty two years. And the fact that they are 713 00:46:43,902 --> 00:46:47,542 Speaker 3: still locked up, as I often say when people interview me, 714 00:46:48,262 --> 00:46:51,942 Speaker 3: the streets of California are not safer tonight because Eric 715 00:46:51,982 --> 00:46:55,102 Speaker 3: and Lyle and Unders are locked up. I believe if 716 00:46:55,102 --> 00:46:59,222 Speaker 3: the brothers get out, they will never commit any new crimes. 717 00:46:59,782 --> 00:47:03,582 Speaker 3: And they've dedicated their lives to be in service in 718 00:47:03,622 --> 00:47:07,862 Speaker 3: their inmate community, and so it's remarkable what they're doing. 719 00:47:08,302 --> 00:47:12,742 Speaker 3: They're both teaching classes and they're cunseling in other inmates 720 00:47:13,342 --> 00:47:16,782 Speaker 3: who are sexual abuse survivors, and as you can guess, 721 00:47:16,822 --> 00:47:20,022 Speaker 3: there are many people inside the prison that were abused. 722 00:47:22,422 --> 00:47:26,102 Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me Jemma Bass. 723 00:47:26,702 --> 00:47:29,542 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with journalists and author of the Menendez Murders 724 00:47:29,582 --> 00:47:33,182 Speaker 1: book Robert rand after the break. Where are the Menendez 725 00:47:33,222 --> 00:47:36,062 Speaker 1: brothers now and how do they feel about the Monster's 726 00:47:36,102 --> 00:47:38,542 Speaker 1: Netflix series and all the new attention on the case. 727 00:47:40,222 --> 00:47:42,782 Speaker 1: There's a lot of buzz going on right now. There's 728 00:47:42,782 --> 00:47:46,862 Speaker 1: a Netflix documentary, another series on Netflix called Monsters that's 729 00:47:46,902 --> 00:47:51,142 Speaker 1: a fictionalized scripted show based on the real events. How 730 00:47:51,182 --> 00:47:54,062 Speaker 1: are the brothers feeling about it all, particularly Monsters, which 731 00:47:54,102 --> 00:47:56,582 Speaker 1: paints them in a really unfavorable light. 732 00:47:57,902 --> 00:48:01,102 Speaker 3: They do not have access to the internet in prison, 733 00:48:01,502 --> 00:48:05,462 Speaker 3: so neither of them has actually seen this series. However, 734 00:48:05,902 --> 00:48:08,982 Speaker 3: they speaks to their wives daily and their wives told 735 00:48:09,022 --> 00:48:13,262 Speaker 3: them everything about the series, and of course you can 736 00:48:13,302 --> 00:48:17,462 Speaker 3: send them articles, and there's been quite a bit of press, 737 00:48:17,502 --> 00:48:21,782 Speaker 3: you know, since Monsters came out last September nineteen. But 738 00:48:22,262 --> 00:48:27,062 Speaker 3: Ryelman is extremely upset with the way he is portrayed 739 00:48:27,142 --> 00:48:30,502 Speaker 3: in Monsters, And as I told you a few months ago, 740 00:48:31,182 --> 00:48:36,262 Speaker 3: I don't believe the portrayal is accurate at all, because 741 00:48:36,782 --> 00:48:41,342 Speaker 3: I think the Monsters has an incredible cast. The problem 742 00:48:41,422 --> 00:48:44,462 Speaker 3: I have with the series is the script. They have 743 00:48:44,662 --> 00:48:48,782 Speaker 3: written a script that is just so bizarre to me. 744 00:48:49,622 --> 00:48:53,222 Speaker 3: And Ryan Murphey actually had the nerve to say that 745 00:48:53,302 --> 00:48:57,302 Speaker 3: he had based Monsters on the reporting of Downtown, the 746 00:48:57,342 --> 00:49:00,502 Speaker 3: writer from Manny Fair, who was famous in the age 747 00:49:00,542 --> 00:49:06,382 Speaker 3: and nineties. I actually became good friends with Nicktoon during 748 00:49:06,422 --> 00:49:11,142 Speaker 3: the first row, even though we completely discreed about the case. 749 00:49:11,462 --> 00:49:14,702 Speaker 3: We sat next to each other every day we had 750 00:49:14,782 --> 00:49:17,142 Speaker 3: lunch in the cafeteria three or four days a week, 751 00:49:17,982 --> 00:49:22,622 Speaker 3: and we did a weekly debate on cor TV and 752 00:49:22,862 --> 00:49:27,342 Speaker 3: cor TV. Besides the trial live all day at night, 753 00:49:27,662 --> 00:49:30,542 Speaker 3: they had a three hour highlight show about the trial 754 00:49:31,142 --> 00:49:35,702 Speaker 3: called Primetime Justice, and Nick Dunn and I were regular 755 00:49:35,742 --> 00:49:40,622 Speaker 3: guests every Friday on that show and we would debate 756 00:49:40,662 --> 00:49:44,142 Speaker 3: the case and he would be the pro prostitution cheerleader 757 00:49:44,702 --> 00:49:47,182 Speaker 3: that he always was, and trial covered. 758 00:49:47,782 --> 00:49:51,422 Speaker 1: But I guess by only covering his kind of angle monsters, 759 00:49:51,502 --> 00:49:54,462 Speaker 1: is only covering half the story, or like the kind 760 00:49:54,462 --> 00:49:55,862 Speaker 1: of more negative side of the story. 761 00:49:56,462 --> 00:50:00,662 Speaker 3: I was involved in the development and production of an 762 00:50:00,742 --> 00:50:05,662 Speaker 3: NBC series in the fall of twenty seventeen starting e Falco, 763 00:50:06,142 --> 00:50:09,782 Speaker 3: made by Dick Wolf, and the series is called Long 764 00:50:09,982 --> 00:50:15,502 Speaker 3: Order Crime The Murders, and ninety five percent of the 765 00:50:15,542 --> 00:50:20,742 Speaker 3: information in that series was actually fascial. It was actually 766 00:50:20,782 --> 00:50:24,142 Speaker 3: the closest thing I've ever seen to the entire truth 767 00:50:24,342 --> 00:50:26,382 Speaker 3: being told in the scripted series. 768 00:50:27,062 --> 00:50:30,582 Speaker 1: Robert, Where do we sit today as we talk in 769 00:50:30,662 --> 00:50:33,102 Speaker 1: terms of the brothers court proceedings they put through a 770 00:50:33,142 --> 00:50:37,382 Speaker 1: petition in twenty twenty three, Can you take us through 771 00:50:37,422 --> 00:50:39,542 Speaker 1: where we are? Are they hoping to get out? Is 772 00:50:39,542 --> 00:50:41,862 Speaker 1: that looking like it could be a possibility. 773 00:50:42,422 --> 00:50:46,862 Speaker 3: In May of twenty twenty three, our documentary plus Maneu 774 00:50:47,182 --> 00:50:52,262 Speaker 3: Moost release in twenty four hours after our documentary Career 775 00:50:52,742 --> 00:50:56,662 Speaker 3: Hell of attorneys for lylent their fins while the Heavieast 776 00:50:56,782 --> 00:51:01,942 Speaker 3: petition asking the courts to vacate their nineteen ninety six 777 00:51:02,102 --> 00:51:07,582 Speaker 3: conviction based on new evidence that we revealed in the documentary, 778 00:51:08,502 --> 00:51:12,062 Speaker 3: and the attorneys are trying for what may be their 779 00:51:12,142 --> 00:51:15,982 Speaker 3: last hope to get them out from their life without 780 00:51:16,022 --> 00:51:20,342 Speaker 3: parole Census and the very latest thing to happen this 781 00:51:20,542 --> 00:51:24,982 Speaker 3: month was that Los Angeles County DA George Gascone said, 782 00:51:25,182 --> 00:51:28,102 Speaker 3: you know, I just want to let everybody know that 783 00:51:28,262 --> 00:51:31,662 Speaker 3: I'm receiving a lot of inquiries from media and just 784 00:51:31,702 --> 00:51:35,422 Speaker 3: from people in general, and I want everybody you know 785 00:51:35,502 --> 00:51:40,342 Speaker 3: that we are carefully reviewing the new evidence. In fact, 786 00:51:40,782 --> 00:51:44,262 Speaker 3: Da Gascone could have had that exact same news conference 787 00:51:44,702 --> 00:51:47,582 Speaker 3: six months ago or a year ago, because he didn't 788 00:51:47,582 --> 00:51:52,742 Speaker 3: really say anything new. The brothers still have another hump 789 00:51:52,902 --> 00:51:56,942 Speaker 3: they have to get over after Gascone makes his recommendation, 790 00:51:57,902 --> 00:52:01,102 Speaker 3: and that is that they will then go in front 791 00:52:01,142 --> 00:52:05,542 Speaker 3: of a Superior Court ooge whose last name is Ryan, 792 00:52:06,422 --> 00:52:10,702 Speaker 3: and I am und sure that there will never be for. 793 00:52:13,022 --> 00:52:14,702 Speaker 1: Robert. Do you speak to the brothers and how are 794 00:52:14,702 --> 00:52:17,782 Speaker 1: they feeling about the fact that all of this hype 795 00:52:18,542 --> 00:52:20,622 Speaker 1: could end up with them being in the same position 796 00:52:20,702 --> 00:52:22,582 Speaker 1: like that is one of the possibilities that they could 797 00:52:22,662 --> 00:52:23,782 Speaker 1: remain in prison. 798 00:52:23,902 --> 00:52:28,942 Speaker 3: Right and I think people are overlooking that right now. 799 00:52:29,982 --> 00:52:35,062 Speaker 3: The brothers have been in prison, as I said, almost 800 00:52:35,102 --> 00:52:38,182 Speaker 3: thirty five years, so they don't want to get their 801 00:52:38,222 --> 00:52:43,862 Speaker 3: hopes up too high. But they've told me they're cautiously optimistic. 802 00:52:44,342 --> 00:52:49,782 Speaker 3: They're hopeful. Really, for the first time in their prison incarceration, 803 00:52:50,622 --> 00:52:53,822 Speaker 3: they actually have hope. That's something that is about to happen. 804 00:52:54,662 --> 00:52:58,982 Speaker 3: And many sources are telling me that d A. George 805 00:52:58,982 --> 00:53:04,222 Speaker 3: Gascon is going to agree to resent the brothers. But 806 00:53:04,622 --> 00:53:07,782 Speaker 3: as I told you, there's still another hump that will 807 00:53:07,822 --> 00:53:11,382 Speaker 3: come late in November when they screw court. Judge is 808 00:53:11,422 --> 00:53:16,622 Speaker 3: going to either agree with Gascone's recommendation or he will disagree. 809 00:53:17,062 --> 00:53:19,142 Speaker 3: There are a number of different things that could happen. 810 00:53:19,622 --> 00:53:22,382 Speaker 3: One is that they may be required to go before 811 00:53:22,422 --> 00:53:26,382 Speaker 3: the California par Ward and talk about how they become 812 00:53:26,462 --> 00:53:32,462 Speaker 3: rehabilitated in prison. A second possibility is that spirit court 813 00:53:32,542 --> 00:53:35,742 Speaker 3: Judge Ryan will decide that he wants to hold live 814 00:53:35,822 --> 00:53:40,742 Speaker 3: hearings with the witnesses, and so that could happen, and 815 00:53:41,542 --> 00:53:44,182 Speaker 3: who knows how long that will take to set up 816 00:53:44,222 --> 00:53:49,662 Speaker 3: and execute. And if live hearings are held, Roy Russello, 817 00:53:49,902 --> 00:53:54,022 Speaker 3: the former member of MNUTO, would be a key defense 818 00:53:54,222 --> 00:53:57,622 Speaker 3: witness and so it would be like a mini trial 819 00:53:58,382 --> 00:54:02,982 Speaker 3: where various people are witnesses and take a stand and 820 00:54:03,582 --> 00:54:06,862 Speaker 3: they'll give direct testimony and they'll losso be cross examined 821 00:54:07,462 --> 00:54:13,462 Speaker 3: and DA George Gascone, his office is kind of divided 822 00:54:13,782 --> 00:54:17,422 Speaker 3: between people that were involved in the work on the 823 00:54:17,462 --> 00:54:22,702 Speaker 3: original trial basically feel the defense is fabricated and the 824 00:54:22,742 --> 00:54:28,262 Speaker 3: brothers were never Gascone said that there's another large faction 825 00:54:28,582 --> 00:54:31,782 Speaker 3: in his office of people that believe the brothers were 826 00:54:31,982 --> 00:54:37,542 Speaker 3: lested and they think they should be resentenced. So there 827 00:54:37,622 --> 00:54:41,182 Speaker 3: is fighting going on in the D's office right now. 828 00:54:41,782 --> 00:54:45,662 Speaker 3: And George Gascone is up for reelection in the general 829 00:54:45,662 --> 00:54:49,582 Speaker 3: election November fifth. And so if you had asked me 830 00:54:49,622 --> 00:54:52,502 Speaker 3: a month ago would I think that George Gascone would 831 00:54:52,542 --> 00:54:55,862 Speaker 3: do anything before the election, I would have told you 832 00:54:56,462 --> 00:55:00,582 Speaker 3: that Gascone would not have touched the brother's case with 833 00:55:00,702 --> 00:55:04,822 Speaker 3: a ten foot poll because he's running for reelection and 834 00:55:04,862 --> 00:55:07,982 Speaker 3: he does not want to be known as the guy 835 00:55:08,062 --> 00:55:11,822 Speaker 3: who let the Imminense brothers out of jail. So it's 836 00:55:11,862 --> 00:55:15,102 Speaker 3: all very interesting now, the different things that are swirling 837 00:55:15,142 --> 00:55:18,782 Speaker 3: around each other. And you know, even though we were 838 00:55:19,302 --> 00:55:23,502 Speaker 3: the original documentary in Me twenty three that exposed the 839 00:55:23,942 --> 00:55:29,382 Speaker 3: Minanda's menu connection, I'm grateful that Marketers came out, even 840 00:55:29,382 --> 00:55:32,582 Speaker 3: though it's full of false scenes. And I'm grateful that 841 00:55:32,662 --> 00:55:37,942 Speaker 3: Netflix released the documentary October seven, because that is full 842 00:55:37,982 --> 00:55:38,382 Speaker 3: of fact. 843 00:55:40,542 --> 00:55:42,782 Speaker 1: Thanks to Robert for helping us to tell this story. 844 00:55:43,142 --> 00:55:45,902 Speaker 1: You can read his detailed account of this case, including 845 00:55:45,942 --> 00:55:49,382 Speaker 1: his interviews with the brothers, in his book The Menendez Murders, 846 00:55:49,742 --> 00:55:53,102 Speaker 1: The shocking, untold story of the Menendez family and the 847 00:55:53,222 --> 00:55:57,302 Speaker 1: killings that stunned the nation. True Crime Conversations is a 848 00:55:57,342 --> 00:56:00,022 Speaker 1: Mum of Meer podcast hosted and produced by me Jemma 849 00:56:00,062 --> 00:56:03,542 Speaker 1: Bath and Tarlie Blackman, with audio design by Tom Lyon. 850 00:56:03,982 --> 00:56:06,462 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week 851 00:56:06,622 --> 00:56:08,222 Speaker 1: with another True Crime Conversation.