1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:15,542 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mum and mea podcast. Mama Mea 2 00:00:15,622 --> 00:00:19,422 Speaker 1: acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast 3 00:00:19,622 --> 00:00:27,742 Speaker 1: was recorded on It's a February morning in the winter 4 00:00:27,822 --> 00:00:31,142 Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety four in the city of Placentia, California, 5 00:00:31,702 --> 00:00:35,582 Speaker 1: and Kathy Torres's mother is worried her daughter never returned 6 00:00:35,582 --> 00:00:37,702 Speaker 1: home from her shift at the local save on drug 7 00:00:37,742 --> 00:00:41,902 Speaker 1: store last night. The police are called, but as they 8 00:00:41,942 --> 00:00:45,382 Speaker 1: begin a search, they warn her concerned family. Sometimes young 9 00:00:45,382 --> 00:00:48,102 Speaker 1: people her age just drive away to be by themselves 10 00:00:48,142 --> 00:00:53,382 Speaker 1: for a while. That's not Kathy, her mum replies. The 11 00:00:53,422 --> 00:00:56,782 Speaker 1: twenty year old is a high achiever, a sociology major, 12 00:00:56,862 --> 00:00:59,822 Speaker 1: working two jobs to pay away in college. She lives 13 00:00:59,822 --> 00:01:02,822 Speaker 1: at home with her mum, Mary, her stepdad, and three siblings. 14 00:01:03,422 --> 00:01:08,302 Speaker 1: She'd never just disappear. Six days later, a police officer 15 00:01:08,382 --> 00:01:11,342 Speaker 1: wakes Mary in the middle of the night. They need 16 00:01:11,422 --> 00:01:15,342 Speaker 1: Kathy's spare car key Immediately, as they retreat with it 17 00:01:15,382 --> 00:01:22,142 Speaker 1: in hand, they won't meet her eye. In the light 18 00:01:22,182 --> 00:01:26,062 Speaker 1: of day, Kathy's loved ones are given the worst news imaginable. 19 00:01:27,022 --> 00:01:30,462 Speaker 1: Kathy has been brutally murdered, her body shoved into the 20 00:01:30,502 --> 00:01:33,742 Speaker 1: trunk of her car. But that is only the start 21 00:01:33,942 --> 00:01:37,462 Speaker 1: of their nightmare. The details of Kathy's death will haunt 22 00:01:37,502 --> 00:01:41,142 Speaker 1: them for years, and it'll be two decades before they 23 00:01:41,222 --> 00:01:53,942 Speaker 1: finally see her killer brought to justice. I'm Jemma Bath 24 00:01:54,062 --> 00:01:57,622 Speaker 1: and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast 25 00:01:57,742 --> 00:02:01,222 Speaker 1: exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the 26 00:02:01,222 --> 00:02:04,542 Speaker 1: people who know the most about them. From the start, 27 00:02:04,622 --> 00:02:08,582 Speaker 1: detectives suspected Kathy's on again, off again boyfriend, Sam Lopez, 28 00:02:09,142 --> 00:02:13,422 Speaker 1: but with little evidence went cold. Today's guest was the 29 00:02:13,462 --> 00:02:16,982 Speaker 1: one who finally put him behind bars, securing a conviction 30 00:02:17,142 --> 00:02:21,022 Speaker 1: twenty one years in the making. Matt Murphy is a 31 00:02:21,022 --> 00:02:25,182 Speaker 1: former homicide prosecutor who has tried over two hundred criminal 32 00:02:25,182 --> 00:02:29,142 Speaker 1: cases to verdict, including well over one hundred jury trials, 33 00:02:29,182 --> 00:02:32,622 Speaker 1: in his twenty six year career. Many of the cases 34 00:02:32,662 --> 00:02:35,182 Speaker 1: he covered during his time with the homicide Unit made 35 00:02:35,222 --> 00:02:38,542 Speaker 1: headlines worldwide as he worked behind the scenes on some 36 00:02:38,662 --> 00:02:42,542 Speaker 1: of America's biggest crimes, including the Dirty John case that 37 00:02:42,622 --> 00:02:46,342 Speaker 1: was made into a global podcast phenomenon. He's just released 38 00:02:46,342 --> 00:02:49,622 Speaker 1: a book called The Book of Murder, a prosecutor's journey 39 00:02:49,622 --> 00:03:02,022 Speaker 1: through love and death. Matt joins us Now, Matt, I 40 00:03:02,062 --> 00:03:04,102 Speaker 1: wanted to start with the murder of a young woman 41 00:03:04,262 --> 00:03:07,062 Speaker 1: in the nineties. Her name was Kathy Torres, and you 42 00:03:07,142 --> 00:03:10,182 Speaker 1: came into her story a decade or so after her. 43 00:03:10,582 --> 00:03:13,942 Speaker 1: Is at what point in your career were you when 44 00:03:14,022 --> 00:03:15,462 Speaker 1: you became involved in that case. 45 00:03:16,742 --> 00:03:19,342 Speaker 2: So the way it works in Orange County, it's actually 46 00:03:19,502 --> 00:03:21,742 Speaker 2: known as a vertical system. The way that works is 47 00:03:21,742 --> 00:03:25,102 Speaker 2: you get as sign certain cities, and vertical means you 48 00:03:25,142 --> 00:03:27,302 Speaker 2: follow the case all the way up, so it's kind 49 00:03:27,302 --> 00:03:30,022 Speaker 2: of like TV. So I've been in homicide a few 50 00:03:30,062 --> 00:03:32,502 Speaker 2: years when I first started working on that, and basically 51 00:03:32,542 --> 00:03:34,582 Speaker 2: you start with the mismeanor jury trials, you do a 52 00:03:34,742 --> 00:03:37,902 Speaker 2: tour in juvenile court, then you go through general felonies, 53 00:03:37,942 --> 00:03:40,582 Speaker 2: and then I came through sexual assault. I'd been in 54 00:03:40,662 --> 00:03:43,502 Speaker 2: homicide for a while, so I had cities assigned to me, 55 00:03:43,622 --> 00:03:46,382 Speaker 2: so anytime there's a murder committed, we would actually roll 56 00:03:46,422 --> 00:03:47,702 Speaker 2: out in the middle of the night. I'd go in 57 00:03:47,742 --> 00:03:50,462 Speaker 2: with my investigator. You're there to sign search warrants and 58 00:03:50,462 --> 00:03:52,982 Speaker 2: do what you can to help, and you do that 59 00:03:53,022 --> 00:03:55,422 Speaker 2: for a while, and then I volunteered to be one 60 00:03:55,462 --> 00:03:58,582 Speaker 2: of the two cold case deputies in our unit. So 61 00:03:58,702 --> 00:04:02,702 Speaker 2: this was Placentia PD. Wasn't one of my cities, and 62 00:04:02,742 --> 00:04:04,542 Speaker 2: this case wound up being fascinating. 63 00:04:04,782 --> 00:04:06,702 Speaker 3: I got brought in. I'd probably been in the unit, I. 64 00:04:06,622 --> 00:04:09,182 Speaker 2: Guess about five or six years at that point, and 65 00:04:09,742 --> 00:04:13,302 Speaker 2: there was a change within Placentia Police Department. A new 66 00:04:13,342 --> 00:04:16,022 Speaker 2: detective named Darren Wyatt came in and I'd worked on 67 00:04:16,062 --> 00:04:18,262 Speaker 2: a couple of cases with Darren, and he was like 68 00:04:18,302 --> 00:04:20,422 Speaker 2: a dog with a bone. It was something straight out 69 00:04:20,462 --> 00:04:23,862 Speaker 2: of TV where you had this obsessed detective who really 70 00:04:23,902 --> 00:04:27,142 Speaker 2: wanted to bring justice to a victim's family. And for 71 00:04:27,222 --> 00:04:30,102 Speaker 2: all the high profile cases I did, this one didn't 72 00:04:30,102 --> 00:04:31,582 Speaker 2: really have a whole lot of media on it. It 73 00:04:31,662 --> 00:04:33,982 Speaker 2: was just a bunch of really nice people who lost 74 00:04:34,022 --> 00:04:38,622 Speaker 2: their sister and their daughter and wanted justice. So that's 75 00:04:38,622 --> 00:04:40,742 Speaker 2: how I first got involved. Darren showed up in my 76 00:04:40,822 --> 00:04:42,582 Speaker 2: office saying that you wanted me to take a look. 77 00:04:43,462 --> 00:04:46,462 Speaker 1: By this point, you hadn't lost a case, right, And 78 00:04:46,582 --> 00:04:50,142 Speaker 1: is it true that you were on the hunt the harder, bigger, 79 00:04:51,062 --> 00:04:54,142 Speaker 1: something a bit more challenging. You right yourself that this 80 00:04:54,382 --> 00:04:57,142 Speaker 1: was a doozy. You stumbled on a doozy. 81 00:04:57,182 --> 00:04:59,502 Speaker 2: This was a doozy that turned into an even bigger 82 00:04:59,542 --> 00:05:01,942 Speaker 2: doozy than I ever thought. Yeah, so what happens is 83 00:05:02,102 --> 00:05:04,742 Speaker 2: when you're in homicide, there's different kinds of murder cases, 84 00:05:04,822 --> 00:05:07,382 Speaker 2: So like you've got like child abuse cases and you've 85 00:05:07,382 --> 00:05:11,062 Speaker 2: got gang cases. You know, like liquor store robberies. They're 86 00:05:11,182 --> 00:05:14,222 Speaker 2: really interesting when you first start doing them, and then 87 00:05:14,542 --> 00:05:16,742 Speaker 2: you know, it's like any good addiction, you need more 88 00:05:16,782 --> 00:05:18,822 Speaker 2: and more to get the same high than you did before. 89 00:05:18,862 --> 00:05:21,582 Speaker 2: So that's why I volunteered for that spot. And then 90 00:05:21,742 --> 00:05:23,942 Speaker 2: Darren came in. And this was a case that when 91 00:05:23,982 --> 00:05:25,742 Speaker 2: I looked at the box, there were letters that had 92 00:05:25,782 --> 00:05:29,582 Speaker 2: been submitted twice before and refused twice before. So some 93 00:05:29,702 --> 00:05:32,742 Speaker 2: really good prosecutors took a look at it and determined 94 00:05:32,742 --> 00:05:36,422 Speaker 2: that there was not enough evidence. So Darren, being kind 95 00:05:36,462 --> 00:05:38,382 Speaker 2: of a genius, he's like, hey, I just want you 96 00:05:38,422 --> 00:05:40,982 Speaker 2: to meet the family. And then I met Mary Bennett, 97 00:05:40,982 --> 00:05:43,222 Speaker 2: who was Kathy's mom, and he knew exactly what he 98 00:05:43,262 --> 00:05:43,582 Speaker 2: was doing. 99 00:05:43,622 --> 00:05:44,302 Speaker 3: So as soon as we. 100 00:05:44,262 --> 00:05:47,702 Speaker 2: Sat down, just the nicest lady. When we walked into 101 00:05:47,742 --> 00:05:50,702 Speaker 2: the home, there was still sadness there, almost fifteen years 102 00:05:50,742 --> 00:05:51,502 Speaker 2: after the murder. 103 00:05:52,222 --> 00:05:53,462 Speaker 3: Her brother was there. 104 00:05:53,422 --> 00:05:56,062 Speaker 2: Named Marty and her sister Tina, and like all these 105 00:05:56,182 --> 00:05:59,662 Speaker 2: really really just instantly likable people, and a lot of 106 00:05:59,702 --> 00:06:02,422 Speaker 2: folks don't realize that. I mean, we've all lost love 107 00:06:02,502 --> 00:06:05,022 Speaker 2: once or will if we live long enough, and there's 108 00:06:05,062 --> 00:06:08,502 Speaker 2: nothing worse except when you have a love one taken 109 00:06:08,982 --> 00:06:11,582 Speaker 2: because of murder. And then the only thing worse than 110 00:06:11,622 --> 00:06:13,862 Speaker 2: that is the person gets away with it. And they knew, 111 00:06:13,982 --> 00:06:16,342 Speaker 2: the family knew who did it, they just couldn't get 112 00:06:16,342 --> 00:06:20,142 Speaker 2: anybody to file the case. So I want to be 113 00:06:20,142 --> 00:06:20,622 Speaker 2: in that guy. 114 00:06:21,942 --> 00:06:24,142 Speaker 1: Let's back up a bit, paint the picture a bit 115 00:06:24,142 --> 00:06:26,942 Speaker 1: for listeners. As you said, there's nothing worse than having 116 00:06:26,942 --> 00:06:29,942 Speaker 1: a loved one murdered, but reading what happened to Kathy, 117 00:06:30,502 --> 00:06:34,062 Speaker 1: it doesn't get much more horrible than that. Can you 118 00:06:34,142 --> 00:06:35,862 Speaker 1: tell us what happened to Kathy? 119 00:06:36,622 --> 00:06:38,542 Speaker 2: Yeah, so she was in a kind of a stormy 120 00:06:38,582 --> 00:06:41,942 Speaker 2: relationship with an ex boyfriend or a current boyfriend, depending 121 00:06:41,982 --> 00:06:44,902 Speaker 2: on who you talk to or which letter we read. 122 00:06:44,902 --> 00:06:46,822 Speaker 2: But it was a stormy off and on again sort 123 00:06:46,862 --> 00:06:49,782 Speaker 2: of thing, and she went to go meet him one 124 00:06:49,862 --> 00:06:55,302 Speaker 2: night and she disappeared. So the family was worried, sick, 125 00:06:55,422 --> 00:06:58,462 Speaker 2: and she was a very responsible young woman. She was 126 00:06:58,502 --> 00:07:00,582 Speaker 2: an honor student in college, and she wanted to be 127 00:07:00,662 --> 00:07:04,062 Speaker 2: a social worker, and she tutored kids, and she lived 128 00:07:04,062 --> 00:07:07,582 Speaker 2: at home still, and so this was not the type 129 00:07:07,582 --> 00:07:10,862 Speaker 2: of person to get in trouble and type of person 130 00:07:10,902 --> 00:07:14,742 Speaker 2: who would just leave. So several days later they discovered 131 00:07:14,742 --> 00:07:17,422 Speaker 2: her car in the parking lot of a hospital called 132 00:07:17,462 --> 00:07:21,022 Speaker 2: Placential Linda Hospital, and inside the car they found Kathy 133 00:07:21,062 --> 00:07:24,622 Speaker 2: and she'd been stabbed dozens and dozens of times, including 134 00:07:24,822 --> 00:07:27,782 Speaker 2: basically an ear to ear slash mark on her neck. 135 00:07:28,382 --> 00:07:31,062 Speaker 2: She had slash marks in both wrists as well as 136 00:07:31,102 --> 00:07:33,782 Speaker 2: a bunch of haphazard stab wounds to her back to 137 00:07:33,862 --> 00:07:38,222 Speaker 2: her arms, so we had classic defensive type wounds. She'd 138 00:07:38,542 --> 00:07:41,622 Speaker 2: essentially been butchered, but the cut to the throat is 139 00:07:41,742 --> 00:07:46,422 Speaker 2: legally very significant because that indicates almost a premeditated decision 140 00:07:46,462 --> 00:07:49,942 Speaker 2: to kill versus maybe a spontaneous series of stab marks. 141 00:07:50,542 --> 00:07:53,222 Speaker 2: She had one shoe still on her body and the 142 00:07:53,222 --> 00:07:56,022 Speaker 2: other shoe was found inside the car, and her sock 143 00:07:56,182 --> 00:08:00,022 Speaker 2: was dirty, so you start putting the pieces together of that. 144 00:08:00,302 --> 00:08:03,982 Speaker 2: And she'd been seeing another guy, totally legitimate because her 145 00:08:04,142 --> 00:08:06,862 Speaker 2: and Sam had broken up at the time. His name 146 00:08:06,902 --> 00:08:10,702 Speaker 2: was Albert Rangel and he had attempted suicide recently, so 147 00:08:10,742 --> 00:08:13,102 Speaker 2: he was actually in a coma and she was writing 148 00:08:13,102 --> 00:08:17,542 Speaker 2: the letters every day, and we had a letter halfway 149 00:08:17,542 --> 00:08:21,062 Speaker 2: written to Alvert. It was stopped mid sentence, crammed between 150 00:08:21,062 --> 00:08:24,022 Speaker 2: the seat and the center console. And one of the 151 00:08:24,342 --> 00:08:29,742 Speaker 2: fascinating things about investigating homicide cases is fundamentally it's all 152 00:08:29,742 --> 00:08:30,462 Speaker 2: common sense. 153 00:08:30,622 --> 00:08:30,822 Speaker 3: Right. 154 00:08:30,862 --> 00:08:32,982 Speaker 2: So I had two of the best investigators on the 155 00:08:33,022 --> 00:08:35,822 Speaker 2: planet working with me on this case, and Larry Montgomery 156 00:08:35,862 --> 00:08:38,582 Speaker 2: and Darren Wyatt. But really what it boils down to 157 00:08:38,862 --> 00:08:41,302 Speaker 2: is just that common sense life experience that we all have. 158 00:08:41,462 --> 00:08:44,542 Speaker 2: So if you got one sock is dirty and she's 159 00:08:44,582 --> 00:08:47,302 Speaker 2: got stab wounds in the back, what does that tell us? 160 00:08:47,382 --> 00:08:49,662 Speaker 2: And what it means is there was a fight in 161 00:08:49,702 --> 00:08:52,342 Speaker 2: the car where somehow in the struggles she lost one. 162 00:08:52,262 --> 00:08:52,902 Speaker 3: Of her shoes. 163 00:08:53,342 --> 00:08:55,182 Speaker 2: The fact that the sock is dirty ment she got 164 00:08:55,182 --> 00:08:58,142 Speaker 2: out of the car and was running. The biggest piece 165 00:08:58,142 --> 00:09:01,462 Speaker 2: of the puzzle for me was on the inside trunk lid. 166 00:09:01,622 --> 00:09:04,502 Speaker 2: We had what's on this arterial spurting, so we had 167 00:09:04,782 --> 00:09:08,022 Speaker 2: drops of blood on the trunk lid. That means that 168 00:09:08,062 --> 00:09:10,062 Speaker 2: she was alive when she went in the trunk. Her 169 00:09:10,062 --> 00:09:12,782 Speaker 2: heart was still beating. So when you put those together 170 00:09:12,862 --> 00:09:16,022 Speaker 2: and you look at the letter, she's mid letter to 171 00:09:16,182 --> 00:09:19,742 Speaker 2: a man that is in an hospital, which is exactly 172 00:09:19,782 --> 00:09:22,582 Speaker 2: the kind of trigger that a jealous boyfriend you might 173 00:09:22,622 --> 00:09:24,862 Speaker 2: be set off by that. So when you start putting 174 00:09:24,902 --> 00:09:28,182 Speaker 2: those puzzle pieces together that it starts to become clear. 175 00:09:29,382 --> 00:09:32,382 Speaker 1: So why was the case still cold? Then? If you 176 00:09:32,422 --> 00:09:35,422 Speaker 1: could see all of this and there was a potential suspect, 177 00:09:36,662 --> 00:09:38,422 Speaker 1: why was it in such a mess when you got 178 00:09:38,422 --> 00:09:38,702 Speaker 1: to it. 179 00:09:39,382 --> 00:09:43,062 Speaker 2: Potential suspect is an interesting phrase. One of the things 180 00:09:43,062 --> 00:09:47,062 Speaker 2: that's fascinating about being a prosecutor. You're the actual shock caller. 181 00:09:47,142 --> 00:09:49,982 Speaker 2: You make the decision when there's enough evidence. I knew 182 00:09:49,982 --> 00:09:52,982 Speaker 2: he did it, you know, So it's like potential suspect. 183 00:09:52,982 --> 00:09:53,782 Speaker 3: You're very correct. 184 00:09:53,782 --> 00:09:56,982 Speaker 1: That's the legal and being legally sound there, you're. 185 00:09:56,862 --> 00:10:00,702 Speaker 2: Being very proper behind closed doors. The presumption of innocence 186 00:10:00,782 --> 00:10:03,382 Speaker 2: is a very real thing. It's critically important, you know, 187 00:10:03,422 --> 00:10:06,702 Speaker 2: and I believe in that whole hardly. However, when it's 188 00:10:06,782 --> 00:10:08,542 Speaker 2: just the people work in the case, when it's me 189 00:10:08,942 --> 00:10:12,502 Speaker 2: and Larry and Darren, we know who friggin did it. 190 00:10:13,022 --> 00:10:16,022 Speaker 2: So the problem is is that we live in an 191 00:10:16,062 --> 00:10:19,942 Speaker 2: era where forensic science is very important, right, So we 192 00:10:19,982 --> 00:10:22,942 Speaker 2: had no DNA from Sam anywhere on her body. We 193 00:10:22,982 --> 00:10:26,382 Speaker 2: had no fingerprints from Sam anywhere in the car. What 194 00:10:26,462 --> 00:10:29,982 Speaker 2: we had was we had a DNA mixture on the 195 00:10:30,062 --> 00:10:32,102 Speaker 2: left roough quarter panel next to the trunk. And it's 196 00:10:32,142 --> 00:10:34,462 Speaker 2: a red car. So the crime lab actually did a 197 00:10:34,582 --> 00:10:36,782 Speaker 2: nice job of processing the car. So it had been 198 00:10:37,262 --> 00:10:39,902 Speaker 2: basically been left outside in the parking lot and it 199 00:10:39,942 --> 00:10:43,422 Speaker 2: had rained. But there was one little smear next to 200 00:10:43,462 --> 00:10:48,142 Speaker 2: the trunk that contained Kathy's blood and also the DNA 201 00:10:48,262 --> 00:10:52,182 Speaker 2: from a guy named Javier Lopez, who was Sam's first cousin. 202 00:10:52,422 --> 00:10:55,422 Speaker 2: They were very, very close. They were like practically brothers. 203 00:10:55,622 --> 00:10:57,662 Speaker 2: The families lived in the same town. They spent a 204 00:10:57,702 --> 00:11:00,262 Speaker 2: lot of time together. But this was back in the 205 00:11:00,302 --> 00:11:03,302 Speaker 2: era of what's on a substrate DNA, So this was 206 00:11:03,422 --> 00:11:06,382 Speaker 2: kind of this is the early nineties. DNA was still 207 00:11:06,382 --> 00:11:09,902 Speaker 2: an evolving science, and there was this idea that somebody 208 00:11:09,902 --> 00:11:13,182 Speaker 2: could touch object and then somebody else could come later 209 00:11:13,542 --> 00:11:16,222 Speaker 2: and you could get blood over their DNA and you 210 00:11:16,302 --> 00:11:19,662 Speaker 2: might have a mixture. Okay, So the DNA who reviewed 211 00:11:19,662 --> 00:11:23,942 Speaker 2: it then said, hey, this is explainable. Number one, it's 212 00:11:23,942 --> 00:11:26,462 Speaker 2: not Sam and number two, there's an explanation. 213 00:11:26,542 --> 00:11:27,062 Speaker 3: And when they. 214 00:11:26,982 --> 00:11:29,982 Speaker 2: Interviewed Hobber way back right after the murder, he said, 215 00:11:30,062 --> 00:11:32,302 Speaker 2: I was at a record store and I got some 216 00:11:32,342 --> 00:11:34,942 Speaker 2: stuff out of her trunk and there was an index 217 00:11:34,982 --> 00:11:38,942 Speaker 2: fingerprint in an upward position belonging to Hobby Aer on 218 00:11:38,982 --> 00:11:42,302 Speaker 2: the trunk, and there was this mixture of blood and 219 00:11:42,382 --> 00:11:46,502 Speaker 2: his DNA so forensically back then, you know, in the 220 00:11:46,502 --> 00:11:49,942 Speaker 2: mind of the prosecutor who reviewed it, that was reasonable doubt, 221 00:11:50,022 --> 00:11:52,702 Speaker 2: and that's why they didn't file. In my mind at 222 00:11:52,702 --> 00:11:55,982 Speaker 2: that point, I had done so many DNA cases coming 223 00:11:55,982 --> 00:11:58,742 Speaker 2: out of sexual assault, and I'd done so many murder 224 00:11:58,782 --> 00:12:01,782 Speaker 2: cases up to that point, I was far less impressed. 225 00:12:01,862 --> 00:12:05,102 Speaker 2: And the filing decision really is a subjectible one. Every 226 00:12:05,142 --> 00:12:08,582 Speaker 2: prosecutor has to make a subjective decision, like with my 227 00:12:08,822 --> 00:12:11,142 Speaker 2: skill set, with what works for me in a courtroom. 228 00:12:11,502 --> 00:12:13,902 Speaker 2: Do I have a reasonable likelihood of convincing a jury 229 00:12:13,902 --> 00:12:16,622 Speaker 2: beyond a reasonable doubt? That can change depending on the 230 00:12:16,622 --> 00:12:19,462 Speaker 2: prosecutor that reviews it. Right, So, but then we got 231 00:12:19,662 --> 00:12:22,942 Speaker 2: so I charged the case as is, thinking that Javier 232 00:12:22,982 --> 00:12:25,302 Speaker 2: would roll on Sam. You know, we call it flipping 233 00:12:25,302 --> 00:12:28,582 Speaker 2: a witness or rolling a witness, and he didn't. I 234 00:12:28,622 --> 00:12:31,022 Speaker 2: don't know if it's a polite term, but detectives call 235 00:12:31,062 --> 00:12:34,102 Speaker 2: it holding their mud. So he refused to roll on 236 00:12:34,182 --> 00:12:37,342 Speaker 2: his buddy, and he was in custody. So we submitted 237 00:12:37,342 --> 00:12:41,142 Speaker 2: everything to the crime lab, and again we got nothing 238 00:12:41,302 --> 00:12:45,742 Speaker 2: from Sam because it appeared that, again putting together our 239 00:12:45,742 --> 00:12:49,342 Speaker 2: common sense pieces, somebody loaded her into the trunk, right, 240 00:12:49,782 --> 00:12:52,142 Speaker 2: So Javier's story was I got something out of the trunk. 241 00:12:52,182 --> 00:12:53,222 Speaker 3: We're at a record store. 242 00:12:53,582 --> 00:12:55,622 Speaker 2: I might have touched the trunk and maybe her blood 243 00:12:55,702 --> 00:12:58,422 Speaker 2: was deposited over my DNA at some point later. Like 244 00:12:58,462 --> 00:13:01,422 Speaker 2: for true crime fans or people that are into the forensics, 245 00:13:01,782 --> 00:13:05,662 Speaker 2: it's a fascinating defense. But the problem is his story 246 00:13:06,142 --> 00:13:10,142 Speaker 2: wouldn't have had her touching her Jenes right. And when 247 00:13:10,182 --> 00:13:13,262 Speaker 2: we submitted everything back to the crime lab, we got 248 00:13:13,262 --> 00:13:16,782 Speaker 2: a hit for Xavier's DNA on the back of Kathy's jeans, 249 00:13:17,342 --> 00:13:20,902 Speaker 2: and that changed everything. Now we still don't have Sam's DNA, 250 00:13:21,462 --> 00:13:25,342 Speaker 2: but Xavier had no business with his DNA on the 251 00:13:25,382 --> 00:13:26,022 Speaker 2: back of virgins. 252 00:13:26,062 --> 00:13:26,782 Speaker 3: They weren't dating. 253 00:13:27,062 --> 00:13:29,622 Speaker 2: He had no motive to kill her, and he was 254 00:13:29,742 --> 00:13:32,942 Speaker 2: Sam's alibi the night of the murders. Now we've got 255 00:13:33,222 --> 00:13:36,342 Speaker 2: he says he's with Sam. Sam said he's with Sam. 256 00:13:36,462 --> 00:13:39,062 Speaker 2: They said they never saw Kathy that night. Then the 257 00:13:39,062 --> 00:13:41,542 Speaker 2: big question is, well, then how did Javier's DNA wind 258 00:13:41,622 --> 00:13:42,622 Speaker 2: up on the back of virgins? 259 00:13:43,102 --> 00:13:44,782 Speaker 3: So we decided to roll with that. 260 00:13:45,342 --> 00:13:47,782 Speaker 1: Well, you did eventually get Javier to talk, didn't you. 261 00:13:48,462 --> 00:13:52,982 Speaker 2: We did, so Xavier eventually talked and he told us 262 00:13:52,982 --> 00:13:56,142 Speaker 2: a story and he said, hey, look, Sam killed her. 263 00:13:56,342 --> 00:13:58,982 Speaker 2: I had nothing to do with it. It's almost like 264 00:13:59,062 --> 00:14:00,742 Speaker 2: you're too young to remember this. But there's an old 265 00:14:00,742 --> 00:14:02,222 Speaker 2: series called Get Smart back. 266 00:14:02,102 --> 00:14:02,422 Speaker 3: In the sun. 267 00:14:02,662 --> 00:14:03,662 Speaker 1: Remember Get Smart? 268 00:14:03,982 --> 00:14:05,062 Speaker 3: Okay, you remember I Got Smart? 269 00:14:05,342 --> 00:14:07,902 Speaker 2: Yeah, So Get Smart had a gag where it was, 270 00:14:08,422 --> 00:14:10,742 Speaker 2: you know, he'd get caught in his whatever little spy 271 00:14:10,862 --> 00:14:13,542 Speaker 2: hi jenks he was involved in, and he'd say, would 272 00:14:13,582 --> 00:14:15,742 Speaker 2: you believe you know? And that's kind of what we 273 00:14:15,822 --> 00:14:18,422 Speaker 2: got from Javier. It was like, Okay, I was there, 274 00:14:18,782 --> 00:14:22,102 Speaker 2: Sam did kill her, but would you believe that? Sam 275 00:14:22,142 --> 00:14:24,582 Speaker 2: told me about it, and then he told me he 276 00:14:24,662 --> 00:14:27,502 Speaker 2: left the knife in the trunk, so he drove me 277 00:14:27,622 --> 00:14:30,222 Speaker 2: back and then I was moving the body around and 278 00:14:30,262 --> 00:14:31,982 Speaker 2: that must be how my DNA went up there, and 279 00:14:31,982 --> 00:14:34,182 Speaker 2: I accidentally cut myself on the knife. And it's one 280 00:14:34,182 --> 00:14:37,142 Speaker 2: of those interviews where my IQ is dropping as I'm. 281 00:14:37,022 --> 00:14:37,702 Speaker 3: Listening to it. 282 00:14:38,142 --> 00:14:41,942 Speaker 2: The lawyer for Sam Lopez is my old mentor who 283 00:14:42,022 --> 00:14:45,022 Speaker 2: left the dat's office. He became a private criminal defense lawyer. 284 00:14:45,022 --> 00:14:49,382 Speaker 2: His name is Lou Rosenbloom. He is the most insanely talented, 285 00:14:49,702 --> 00:14:53,142 Speaker 2: gifted trial lawyer I've ever seen. I mean this guy. 286 00:14:53,262 --> 00:14:56,462 Speaker 2: So I'm thinking in my mind, what is Lou Rosenbloom 287 00:14:56,822 --> 00:15:00,022 Speaker 2: the single best cross examiner I've already even heard of. 288 00:15:00,102 --> 00:15:03,062 Speaker 2: What is he going to do to this lying knucklehead? 289 00:15:03,342 --> 00:15:05,262 Speaker 2: And he's trying to sell his cousin down the river, 290 00:15:05,462 --> 00:15:07,742 Speaker 2: but he's telling a story that nobody's going to believe 291 00:15:07,782 --> 00:15:10,182 Speaker 2: about his own innocence. So I had to make the 292 00:15:10,502 --> 00:15:13,382 Speaker 2: very difficult decision not to put him on the stand. 293 00:15:13,542 --> 00:15:18,022 Speaker 2: And essentially that was one where good old fashioned common sense. 294 00:15:18,342 --> 00:15:20,662 Speaker 2: You know, I'm going to get twelve members from the community. 295 00:15:20,902 --> 00:15:25,222 Speaker 2: And Sam's interview was fascinating, so it's threecorded. There was 296 00:15:25,262 --> 00:15:28,062 Speaker 2: a series of mistakes made by the Placential Police department 297 00:15:28,102 --> 00:15:30,582 Speaker 2: back in the day, like they didn't submit the fingerprint 298 00:15:30,662 --> 00:15:33,542 Speaker 2: on the trunk for three years from Xavier until he 299 00:15:33,582 --> 00:15:36,102 Speaker 2: came back, So they made a bunch of very basic 300 00:15:36,422 --> 00:15:40,342 Speaker 2: investigatory errors, but it didn't change any of the evidence 301 00:15:40,342 --> 00:15:42,062 Speaker 2: that we had, and it didn't change the fact that 302 00:15:42,102 --> 00:15:44,622 Speaker 2: we got arterial spurting on the trunk, which means she 303 00:15:44,742 --> 00:15:47,582 Speaker 2: was alive, and Javier's DNA on the back of the knees, 304 00:15:47,662 --> 00:15:51,062 Speaker 2: which means Javier was a principal to murder as well. 305 00:15:51,102 --> 00:15:52,662 Speaker 3: So they were both charged with murder. 306 00:15:52,982 --> 00:15:56,542 Speaker 2: But when Sam was interviewed, he came in and you know, 307 00:15:56,582 --> 00:15:59,182 Speaker 2: when you look at it objectively, he was the picture 308 00:15:59,222 --> 00:16:01,422 Speaker 2: of calmness. He was like, yeah, you know, and he 309 00:16:01,542 --> 00:16:03,302 Speaker 2: told the story about it. He didn't see her that night, 310 00:16:03,342 --> 00:16:05,862 Speaker 2: and he was with his cousin, and he was very, 311 00:16:05,942 --> 00:16:11,222 Speaker 2: sort of mellow and sort of portrayed the quintessential innocent man, 312 00:16:11,342 --> 00:16:14,422 Speaker 2: like almost somebody. He behaved as if somebody would have 313 00:16:14,502 --> 00:16:16,822 Speaker 2: behaved if they were walking down the street and the 314 00:16:16,822 --> 00:16:18,982 Speaker 2: police were just trying to eliminate them from a lista's 315 00:16:18,982 --> 00:16:21,302 Speaker 2: suspects who had no dog in the fight, who had 316 00:16:21,302 --> 00:16:24,822 Speaker 2: no emotional connection to any of this, And he answered 317 00:16:24,862 --> 00:16:27,702 Speaker 2: the questions appropriately, and he was very I think the 318 00:16:27,782 --> 00:16:32,982 Speaker 2: term would be nonplus and that's just not how Sam 319 00:16:33,022 --> 00:16:35,502 Speaker 2: Lopez would have acted. Sam was kind of a hothead. 320 00:16:35,782 --> 00:16:38,342 Speaker 2: He had a very stormy relationship with her. And if 321 00:16:38,342 --> 00:16:40,382 Speaker 2: he was innocent, this is a guy who would have 322 00:16:40,502 --> 00:16:42,742 Speaker 2: just learned that the love of his life because he'd 323 00:16:42,782 --> 00:16:45,422 Speaker 2: actually asked her to a lope the week before she 324 00:16:45,462 --> 00:16:47,902 Speaker 2: goes missing and she turned him down, he would be 325 00:16:47,982 --> 00:16:50,822 Speaker 2: losing his mind, right, So the most important thing with 326 00:16:50,942 --> 00:16:54,742 Speaker 2: jury's is that common sense application of life experience. So 327 00:16:54,782 --> 00:16:57,702 Speaker 2: it's like, on one hand, on the surface, everything he 328 00:16:57,742 --> 00:17:00,342 Speaker 2: said was perfect, he denied it, he had an alibi, 329 00:17:00,782 --> 00:17:03,102 Speaker 2: he was calm, he didn't appear that he was worried 330 00:17:03,142 --> 00:17:07,062 Speaker 2: about anything. But how would that man actually have reacted 331 00:17:07,102 --> 00:17:10,182 Speaker 2: when he learned that somebody not only was his beloved 332 00:17:10,582 --> 00:17:14,182 Speaker 2: girlfriend dead, but that somebody killed her and it took 333 00:17:14,222 --> 00:17:17,582 Speaker 2: him over forty five minutes to ask how she died. 334 00:17:18,262 --> 00:17:19,342 Speaker 3: That makes no sense. 335 00:17:19,542 --> 00:17:23,102 Speaker 2: So that's what we went with and trying that case 336 00:17:23,142 --> 00:17:26,622 Speaker 2: against lou Rosenwood. That was probably the single hardest jury 337 00:17:26,662 --> 00:17:29,662 Speaker 2: trial I've ever done because the defense lawyer was just 338 00:17:29,822 --> 00:17:32,622 Speaker 2: so good, and in the end, the jury think they 339 00:17:32,702 --> 00:17:34,542 Speaker 2: did the right thing. I really feel like we got 340 00:17:34,662 --> 00:17:35,862 Speaker 2: justice for Kathy's family. 341 00:17:36,502 --> 00:17:39,502 Speaker 1: Yeah, well you did win that case. Do you think 342 00:17:39,542 --> 00:17:41,422 Speaker 1: it helped you learn anything as a prosecutor. 343 00:17:42,022 --> 00:17:44,342 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, you learn a lot more from the hard ones, 344 00:17:44,702 --> 00:17:47,542 Speaker 2: for sure. Lou was the head of the homicide unit 345 00:17:47,662 --> 00:17:51,382 Speaker 2: when he brought me in. Lou's record, Lou had sixty 346 00:17:51,502 --> 00:17:55,302 Speaker 2: seven murders in twelve years. I did fifty two trials 347 00:17:55,342 --> 00:17:57,262 Speaker 2: when I was in the unit over the course of 348 00:17:57,302 --> 00:18:01,582 Speaker 2: seventeen years. Lou won all sixty seven. I won all 349 00:18:01,582 --> 00:18:04,342 Speaker 2: the cases that I tried in the homicide unit thankfully 350 00:18:04,382 --> 00:18:08,582 Speaker 2: as well. But sixty seven murders in twelve years, it's impossible, 351 00:18:08,622 --> 00:18:10,182 Speaker 2: and Lou did it, and then they made him Head 352 00:18:10,182 --> 00:18:12,662 Speaker 2: of the year. You know, it was like getting recruited 353 00:18:12,702 --> 00:18:15,822 Speaker 2: by Michael Jordan to play basketball off your high school team. 354 00:18:16,262 --> 00:18:18,502 Speaker 2: Lou taught me how to do those cases, and Lou 355 00:18:18,582 --> 00:18:20,822 Speaker 2: taught me how to do cross examinations. He taught me 356 00:18:20,822 --> 00:18:24,782 Speaker 2: how to construct prosecutions. And then I'm going up against him. 357 00:18:25,182 --> 00:18:28,222 Speaker 2: Not only the best trialer or among the best I've 358 00:18:28,262 --> 00:18:31,382 Speaker 2: ever seen, he was my mentor and very good personal friend, 359 00:18:31,982 --> 00:18:33,862 Speaker 2: and so yeah, I learned a ton in that, But 360 00:18:34,382 --> 00:18:36,022 Speaker 2: that was one that the good guys won. 361 00:18:36,342 --> 00:18:41,022 Speaker 1: That's so much pressure to win every single case that 362 00:18:41,062 --> 00:18:41,822 Speaker 1: you prosecuted. 363 00:18:42,382 --> 00:18:44,662 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, so I lost a couple of misdemeanors. 364 00:18:44,742 --> 00:18:46,702 Speaker 1: I lost my first ball early on. 365 00:18:47,102 --> 00:18:49,542 Speaker 2: I lost a couple of misdemeanors and didn't like that 366 00:18:49,582 --> 00:18:52,382 Speaker 2: feeling at all. And the man who really taught me 367 00:18:52,582 --> 00:18:54,142 Speaker 2: how to take my trial game to the. 368 00:18:54,062 --> 00:18:55,662 Speaker 3: Next level was Lou. 369 00:18:55,982 --> 00:18:58,622 Speaker 2: Lou had never lost a felony, never lost murder, so 370 00:18:58,702 --> 00:19:01,542 Speaker 2: that I think combined, we had one hundred and six 371 00:19:01,662 --> 00:19:04,342 Speaker 2: murder cases between the two of us when we went 372 00:19:04,342 --> 00:19:07,262 Speaker 2: into that trial, and neither one of us had ever lost. 373 00:19:11,782 --> 00:19:15,502 Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Jemma Bath. 374 00:19:15,942 --> 00:19:24,862 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with former homicide prosecutor Matt Murphy. Matt, let's 375 00:19:24,862 --> 00:19:27,902 Speaker 1: talk serial killers. How many of you put behind bars? 376 00:19:27,942 --> 00:19:29,982 Speaker 1: And did you like working on those cases? 377 00:19:31,102 --> 00:19:34,222 Speaker 2: Yes, and come off as a little twisted. I loved 378 00:19:34,262 --> 00:19:35,462 Speaker 2: working on those cases. 379 00:19:36,022 --> 00:19:38,262 Speaker 1: I think I've seen you use the word mesmerizing. 380 00:19:38,862 --> 00:19:41,942 Speaker 3: They are fascinating creatures. They really are. 381 00:19:42,102 --> 00:19:44,462 Speaker 2: So the vast majority of the cases you deal with 382 00:19:44,542 --> 00:19:46,302 Speaker 2: in the homicide unit, you know, a lot of them 383 00:19:46,302 --> 00:19:49,662 Speaker 2: are understandable types of killings. You know, it's like you 384 00:19:49,742 --> 00:19:52,502 Speaker 2: got a methadict who goes and robs seven to eleven 385 00:19:52,782 --> 00:19:55,102 Speaker 2: a bunch of cases are like that robbery's gone bad. 386 00:19:55,462 --> 00:19:58,222 Speaker 2: He's twitchy, somebody walks in and he pulls a trigger 387 00:19:58,262 --> 00:20:01,382 Speaker 2: on a gun. Or the domestic violence things, the husband 388 00:20:01,382 --> 00:20:03,662 Speaker 2: that gets drunk and next thing you know, he chokes 389 00:20:03,662 --> 00:20:06,342 Speaker 2: his wife to death. You see a lot of those. 390 00:20:07,062 --> 00:20:10,422 Speaker 2: There's different kinds of murders. There's the gang murder, which 391 00:20:10,422 --> 00:20:14,582 Speaker 2: wich is its own archetype with its own factors. Child 392 00:20:14,622 --> 00:20:18,502 Speaker 2: to means murders. There's different types, and then you also 393 00:20:18,542 --> 00:20:21,542 Speaker 2: have some very elaborate conspiracies to kill people for money, 394 00:20:21,542 --> 00:20:23,702 Speaker 2: where people get together and they patch a plot. 395 00:20:23,782 --> 00:20:23,982 Speaker 3: Right. 396 00:20:24,742 --> 00:20:29,342 Speaker 2: In my experience, the most fascinating are the serial killers. 397 00:20:29,902 --> 00:20:32,942 Speaker 3: The vast majority of murders. Really, when you break it down. 398 00:20:32,782 --> 00:20:35,982 Speaker 2: And when it's your job to respond in the middle 399 00:20:35,982 --> 00:20:37,142 Speaker 2: of the night or in the middle of the day 400 00:20:37,302 --> 00:20:39,942 Speaker 2: to murder scenes, what you see over and over again 401 00:20:40,182 --> 00:20:44,622 Speaker 2: are the same four or five reasons. People have been 402 00:20:44,702 --> 00:20:46,502 Speaker 2: killing each other for one hundred thousand years. 403 00:20:46,542 --> 00:20:46,702 Speaker 3: You know. 404 00:20:46,742 --> 00:20:51,222 Speaker 2: It's jealousy, anger, greed. It's almost like the mortal sins, right. 405 00:20:51,262 --> 00:20:53,062 Speaker 2: You see the same stuff over and over again. The 406 00:20:53,102 --> 00:20:56,382 Speaker 2: jealous husband, the angry just speat between neighbors over a 407 00:20:56,422 --> 00:20:58,662 Speaker 2: tree or a fence like stupid stuff like that, over 408 00:20:58,662 --> 00:21:01,142 Speaker 2: and over again. Even though we would never do it ourselves, 409 00:21:01,422 --> 00:21:04,742 Speaker 2: you sort of understand what the motivation is. Serial Killers 410 00:21:04,822 --> 00:21:07,462 Speaker 2: are totally different. You know, as uncomfortable as it is, 411 00:21:07,902 --> 00:21:11,342 Speaker 2: there are people out there who kill for fun, and 412 00:21:11,382 --> 00:21:12,782 Speaker 2: that's truly what it is. 413 00:21:12,822 --> 00:21:13,542 Speaker 3: It's fun. 414 00:21:13,822 --> 00:21:17,502 Speaker 2: They get sexual gratification from it. The classic serial killer, 415 00:21:17,582 --> 00:21:19,782 Speaker 2: like the Ted Bundy, the Jeffrey Dahmer. 416 00:21:20,062 --> 00:21:22,062 Speaker 3: We all have this image in our mind. 417 00:21:21,902 --> 00:21:23,742 Speaker 2: Of what a serial killer is. And when I started, 418 00:21:23,902 --> 00:21:25,622 Speaker 2: I talked about this a little bit in the book. 419 00:21:25,662 --> 00:21:28,222 Speaker 2: When I started in homicide, you know, my experience with 420 00:21:28,302 --> 00:21:31,022 Speaker 2: serial killers was limited to Silence of the Lamps. I 421 00:21:31,062 --> 00:21:34,222 Speaker 2: eventually read Mindhunter by an fbi agen named John Douglas, 422 00:21:34,222 --> 00:21:36,542 Speaker 2: which is an amazing book. But look at our two 423 00:21:36,622 --> 00:21:38,462 Speaker 2: main serial killers and Sons of the Lamps. You got 424 00:21:38,462 --> 00:21:41,502 Speaker 2: Buffalo Bill and for everybody who's seen the movie, he's 425 00:21:41,582 --> 00:21:44,382 Speaker 2: murdering women because he wants to metamorphosize into a woman, 426 00:21:44,462 --> 00:21:47,062 Speaker 2: so he's killing them to wear their skin. And it's 427 00:21:47,102 --> 00:21:49,702 Speaker 2: based on a real guy and that existed in the 428 00:21:49,702 --> 00:21:52,102 Speaker 2: Annals of serial Killers. And then the other one is 429 00:21:52,262 --> 00:21:55,102 Speaker 2: Hannibal Elector and he's killing them to eat them right. 430 00:21:55,582 --> 00:21:59,982 Speaker 2: Neither of those characters represents the real serial killer in 431 00:22:00,022 --> 00:22:02,062 Speaker 2: my mind. As scary as they are, you know, you've 432 00:22:02,062 --> 00:22:04,702 Speaker 2: got a creepy, brilliant psychiatrist and then you've got the 433 00:22:04,742 --> 00:22:06,822 Speaker 2: weird guy with the van with the creepy house on 434 00:22:06,862 --> 00:22:10,622 Speaker 2: the hill. Real serial killers are scarier than that. They're 435 00:22:10,702 --> 00:22:12,462 Speaker 2: the guy that could be in line in front of 436 00:22:12,502 --> 00:22:14,822 Speaker 2: you at a Starbucks and you'd never know. And there's 437 00:22:14,862 --> 00:22:16,902 Speaker 2: this myth out there that I bought into very much 438 00:22:16,902 --> 00:22:20,822 Speaker 2: when I started homicide that serial killers are the product 439 00:22:20,862 --> 00:22:23,502 Speaker 2: of abuse, you know, like the character Buffalo Bill, like 440 00:22:23,862 --> 00:22:26,622 Speaker 2: he'd been horribly abused as a child, and you almost 441 00:22:26,622 --> 00:22:29,502 Speaker 2: have this built in sympathy. And one of the questions 442 00:22:29,502 --> 00:22:31,702 Speaker 2: you hear over and over again is what in God's 443 00:22:31,742 --> 00:22:34,902 Speaker 2: name could make somebody do that? Like what trauma did 444 00:22:34,902 --> 00:22:37,502 Speaker 2: they go through to make them hate women that much? 445 00:22:37,902 --> 00:22:41,302 Speaker 2: And the creepy thing about it is most serial killers, 446 00:22:41,302 --> 00:22:45,942 Speaker 2: in my experience, weren't traumatized as kids. They were spoiled 447 00:22:46,102 --> 00:22:48,262 Speaker 2: more often than not. And they do it because they 448 00:22:48,502 --> 00:22:51,702 Speaker 2: like it. They sexually get off on it, and it's 449 00:22:51,822 --> 00:22:55,462 Speaker 2: fun to them, and they tend to have success. They 450 00:22:55,502 --> 00:22:57,622 Speaker 2: tend to be employed. A lot of them are married, 451 00:22:58,182 --> 00:23:01,182 Speaker 2: a lot of them are professionals. And you know, Rodney 452 00:23:01,222 --> 00:23:03,142 Speaker 2: o'calla has a case that I get into in the book. 453 00:23:03,302 --> 00:23:05,302 Speaker 2: He was on the yearbook committee. He had a genius 454 00:23:05,382 --> 00:23:07,782 Speaker 2: level IQ. He was in a really good high school. 455 00:23:07,982 --> 00:23:11,422 Speaker 2: He had a girlfriend, he was a cross country varsity letterman. 456 00:23:11,822 --> 00:23:13,742 Speaker 1: He made it onto a TV dating show. 457 00:23:14,382 --> 00:23:15,342 Speaker 3: Literally the guy. 458 00:23:15,182 --> 00:23:17,542 Speaker 2: Went on the Dating Game in nineteen seventy seven and 459 00:23:17,702 --> 00:23:21,062 Speaker 2: won the dating game because he was charming, you know. 460 00:23:21,102 --> 00:23:23,302 Speaker 2: And this guy had a mensa level IQ, just like 461 00:23:23,342 --> 00:23:27,502 Speaker 2: Ted Bundy, very very similar like charming, smart guy that 462 00:23:27,622 --> 00:23:31,382 Speaker 2: people liked. He's handsome, he had plenty of success with women, 463 00:23:31,782 --> 00:23:36,022 Speaker 2: He had girlfriends, he had sexual relationships that were normal. 464 00:23:36,862 --> 00:23:39,542 Speaker 2: That's the fascinating thing about serial killers, you know. And 465 00:23:39,582 --> 00:23:41,702 Speaker 2: of course everybody's an individual and they're all a little 466 00:23:41,702 --> 00:23:43,622 Speaker 2: bit different. But when you look over and over again. 467 00:23:43,862 --> 00:23:46,222 Speaker 2: I talked a little bit about Jack the Ripper in 468 00:23:46,222 --> 00:23:49,462 Speaker 2: my book, and the reason why Jack the Ripper was 469 00:23:49,502 --> 00:23:51,982 Speaker 2: never caught, I will tell you right now, is because 470 00:23:52,462 --> 00:23:55,262 Speaker 2: Jack the Ripper walked out into White Chapel, London in 471 00:23:55,302 --> 00:23:58,822 Speaker 2: the eighteen eighties and it immediately blended with everybody else, 472 00:23:58,902 --> 00:24:01,182 Speaker 2: and that's why they never caught him, because he wasn't 473 00:24:01,182 --> 00:24:03,142 Speaker 2: that creepy guy with the house on the hill. He 474 00:24:03,262 --> 00:24:06,382 Speaker 2: was just like everybody else. He's probably a professional. He's 475 00:24:06,422 --> 00:24:09,182 Speaker 2: probably literally an English gentleman who could walk out with 476 00:24:09,182 --> 00:24:13,982 Speaker 2: a cane having just butchered as victims and aroused zero suspicion. 477 00:24:14,142 --> 00:24:15,622 Speaker 2: We have one on the East coast right now and 478 00:24:16,022 --> 00:24:18,742 Speaker 2: he's just charged by a guy named Rex Huerman, also 479 00:24:18,822 --> 00:24:21,782 Speaker 2: known as the Gilgo Beach Killer, and that one is fascinating, 480 00:24:21,862 --> 00:24:24,982 Speaker 2: and he's presumed in a cent but that is almost 481 00:24:25,022 --> 00:24:28,982 Speaker 2: one of the first post DNA if he's guilty serial killers, 482 00:24:28,982 --> 00:24:32,302 Speaker 2: because they made him with mitochondrial DNA, which is DNA 483 00:24:32,382 --> 00:24:35,902 Speaker 2: from hairs, not from nuclear DNA, which is things like 484 00:24:35,982 --> 00:24:39,582 Speaker 2: blood or sperm or something that was more of the 485 00:24:39,582 --> 00:24:42,662 Speaker 2: traditional DNA. But a lot of the serial killers also 486 00:24:42,702 --> 00:24:46,022 Speaker 2: they're arrogant, and Rodney Alcalo is one they want to 487 00:24:46,062 --> 00:24:47,102 Speaker 2: defend themselves. 488 00:24:47,422 --> 00:24:50,422 Speaker 1: This was fascinating reading about your experience with this because 489 00:24:50,462 --> 00:24:52,382 Speaker 1: he gets up on the stand and basically he's his 490 00:24:52,462 --> 00:24:56,302 Speaker 1: own lawyer. Yes, cross examining victims. 491 00:24:56,862 --> 00:25:00,342 Speaker 2: He cross examined the mother of Robin Samso, who is 492 00:25:00,382 --> 00:25:02,742 Speaker 2: a twelve year old girl that he kidnapped, raped, and 493 00:25:02,862 --> 00:25:06,142 Speaker 2: murdered in nineteen seventy nine. It's fascinating. They want to 494 00:25:06,182 --> 00:25:09,742 Speaker 2: represent themselves, just like Ted Bunny did. Ted Bunny represented himself. 495 00:25:10,422 --> 00:25:14,702 Speaker 2: But whatever disconnects them from humanity that gives them that 496 00:25:14,782 --> 00:25:18,702 Speaker 2: ability to torture people to death for sexual gratification. They 497 00:25:18,822 --> 00:25:21,822 Speaker 2: also seem to have a hard time reading the room. 498 00:25:22,422 --> 00:25:26,222 Speaker 2: So his cross examination of Robin's mother and her life 499 00:25:26,302 --> 00:25:30,542 Speaker 2: was destroyed by that murder. The apoplectic grief that a 500 00:25:30,662 --> 00:25:34,102 Speaker 2: victim's mother goes through when their daughter or son, you know, 501 00:25:34,142 --> 00:25:36,582 Speaker 2: even adult daughter or son is murdered, Their life is 502 00:25:36,622 --> 00:25:40,302 Speaker 2: never the same. And for Robin's mother, it was very, 503 00:25:40,382 --> 00:25:42,302 Speaker 2: very sad, and she had to go through that. The 504 00:25:42,382 --> 00:25:45,742 Speaker 2: case got reversed twice, so by the time I had it, 505 00:25:45,742 --> 00:25:47,742 Speaker 2: it was the third trial for that murder, and then 506 00:25:47,782 --> 00:25:50,222 Speaker 2: we had DNA hits on a bunch more. But he 507 00:25:50,462 --> 00:25:56,502 Speaker 2: cross examined that woman, and his cross was technically pretty good, 508 00:25:56,622 --> 00:25:58,502 Speaker 2: Like he learned the form of the questions. I mean, 509 00:25:58,502 --> 00:26:01,342 Speaker 2: the guy was literally is a certified genius, so he 510 00:26:01,502 --> 00:26:04,942 Speaker 2: learned how to ask a question correctly. He learned the 511 00:26:04,982 --> 00:26:07,262 Speaker 2: form of the question, his command of the rules of 512 00:26:07,302 --> 00:26:11,222 Speaker 2: evidence was as good as most lawyers. I mean, he 513 00:26:11,262 --> 00:26:15,182 Speaker 2: had nothing to do but learn that. So technically it's great, 514 00:26:15,342 --> 00:26:18,022 Speaker 2: but what the jury saw. What they saw was the 515 00:26:18,062 --> 00:26:22,102 Speaker 2: horror of this man who raped and murdered her twelve 516 00:26:22,182 --> 00:26:24,822 Speaker 2: year old daughter, calling her a liar, you know. And 517 00:26:24,862 --> 00:26:27,942 Speaker 2: it was the same thing with Ted Bondi before his execution. 518 00:26:28,062 --> 00:26:31,302 Speaker 2: He was convicted. He represented himself. And it's a fascinating 519 00:26:31,302 --> 00:26:34,662 Speaker 2: thing about serial killers. I'm actually working on our second 520 00:26:34,662 --> 00:26:36,822 Speaker 2: book right now, and it's all about serial killers. 521 00:26:37,222 --> 00:26:38,422 Speaker 3: I was so fascinated. 522 00:26:38,542 --> 00:26:42,182 Speaker 2: I prosecuted thirteen people that technically met the FBI definition, 523 00:26:42,622 --> 00:26:46,102 Speaker 2: but I had six true blue serial killers in my 524 00:26:46,222 --> 00:26:49,422 Speaker 2: seventeen years. It's almost like the same. 525 00:26:49,262 --> 00:26:51,022 Speaker 3: Guy, just in different bodies. 526 00:26:51,222 --> 00:26:55,782 Speaker 2: It's fascinating, and I'm not religious, but those guys are 527 00:26:55,822 --> 00:27:00,262 Speaker 2: evil and they love to inflict pain and they get 528 00:27:00,302 --> 00:27:03,102 Speaker 2: off on that. You'll have a caseload full of murders 529 00:27:03,142 --> 00:27:05,222 Speaker 2: that it's, you know, the greatest hits over and over again. 530 00:27:05,262 --> 00:27:09,262 Speaker 2: It's anger, jealousy, drunk, dispute over and over. And then 531 00:27:09,302 --> 00:27:12,982 Speaker 2: you got somebody who does it for fun because they 532 00:27:13,142 --> 00:27:15,822 Speaker 2: enjoy it, and it's a totally different kind of investigation. 533 00:27:15,902 --> 00:27:18,822 Speaker 2: But another thing that's fascinating about that, from the perspective 534 00:27:18,862 --> 00:27:22,382 Speaker 2: of a prosecutor, most murders are one offs to spete 535 00:27:22,382 --> 00:27:25,262 Speaker 2: between neighbors. The neighbor's never going to kill anybody again 536 00:27:25,702 --> 00:27:28,182 Speaker 2: drunken bar fight. I'm not saying you should have any 537 00:27:28,222 --> 00:27:30,262 Speaker 2: sympathy for anybody that beats somebody to death in a 538 00:27:30,302 --> 00:27:32,662 Speaker 2: bar Chances are they're not going to do it again, 539 00:27:32,742 --> 00:27:34,622 Speaker 2: especially if they're arrested and they go through all that 540 00:27:35,302 --> 00:27:37,542 Speaker 2: serial killers when you try one of those cases, the 541 00:27:37,542 --> 00:27:40,942 Speaker 2: price of failure on a normal murder is injustice right, 542 00:27:40,982 --> 00:27:43,782 Speaker 2: the families denied justice, killer gets away with it, and 543 00:27:43,862 --> 00:27:46,982 Speaker 2: all that is horrible. The price of failure when you're 544 00:27:46,982 --> 00:27:49,902 Speaker 2: dealing with a serial killer in an investigation or trial 545 00:27:50,062 --> 00:27:54,862 Speaker 2: is you are guaranteed one hundred percent somebody will die 546 00:27:55,062 --> 00:27:57,222 Speaker 2: in the future and they're probably going to be tortured 547 00:27:57,222 --> 00:27:59,902 Speaker 2: to death, and if you fail, that's what's. 548 00:27:59,742 --> 00:28:00,262 Speaker 3: Going to happen. 549 00:28:00,702 --> 00:28:03,662 Speaker 2: The pressure there is pretty intense. I had a case 550 00:28:03,742 --> 00:28:06,262 Speaker 2: like that where I had a guy named Alejandro Ovolos. 551 00:28:06,382 --> 00:28:09,022 Speaker 2: The first death penalty case I worked on in the unit, 552 00:28:09,502 --> 00:28:13,462 Speaker 2: a six year old girl was kidnapped and brutally raped 553 00:28:13,502 --> 00:28:16,502 Speaker 2: and murdered, and that guy was acquitted on a series 554 00:28:16,542 --> 00:28:18,862 Speaker 2: of child molests about a year and a half before 555 00:28:18,942 --> 00:28:21,742 Speaker 2: in a different county, And that was an example of 556 00:28:21,982 --> 00:28:24,582 Speaker 2: as a prosecutor, if you fail and you got a 557 00:28:24,582 --> 00:28:27,382 Speaker 2: guy like that, somebody innocent is going to die. So 558 00:28:27,422 --> 00:28:29,782 Speaker 2: that's one of the things about serial killers is the 559 00:28:29,862 --> 00:28:32,862 Speaker 2: stakes are very very high. You have a huge responsibility 560 00:28:32,942 --> 00:28:34,742 Speaker 2: and you want to do it right, not only for 561 00:28:34,782 --> 00:28:37,262 Speaker 2: the families of the people that were victimized, but also 562 00:28:37,542 --> 00:28:39,422 Speaker 2: the people out there that are going to be victimized 563 00:28:39,462 --> 00:28:40,102 Speaker 2: if you lose. 564 00:28:40,182 --> 00:28:41,742 Speaker 3: And writting a call was. 565 00:28:42,142 --> 00:28:45,982 Speaker 2: Interesting because in nineteen sixty eight, he kidnapped and raped, 566 00:28:46,022 --> 00:28:48,102 Speaker 2: an almost murdered an eight year old girl named Tali 567 00:28:48,142 --> 00:28:52,302 Speaker 2: Shapiro who was walking to school and he ran out 568 00:28:52,302 --> 00:28:54,862 Speaker 2: the back of the house. A Kiro police officer went up, 569 00:28:54,942 --> 00:28:59,502 Speaker 2: saving her and he performed brook life saving measures. She's 570 00:28:59,542 --> 00:29:01,902 Speaker 2: in a coma for thirty two days. It was one 571 00:29:01,902 --> 00:29:04,382 Speaker 2: of these situations where it was like chase the fleeing 572 00:29:04,382 --> 00:29:06,662 Speaker 2: bad guy or save the dying little girl. And he 573 00:29:06,702 --> 00:29:09,222 Speaker 2: made the right call. He saved the little girl, but 574 00:29:09,302 --> 00:29:11,862 Speaker 2: I'll call it got away, so he gets caught several 575 00:29:11,982 --> 00:29:15,542 Speaker 2: years later working in an all girls summer camp, a 576 00:29:15,582 --> 00:29:20,222 Speaker 2: sleepway camp in Vermont, and two of the campers recognize. 577 00:29:19,822 --> 00:29:20,942 Speaker 3: Him from the FBI photo. 578 00:29:21,182 --> 00:29:24,822 Speaker 2: Anyway, they catch him, he gets extradited, he gets convicted 579 00:29:24,862 --> 00:29:27,062 Speaker 2: of that, but the prosecutor gave him a simple child 580 00:29:27,062 --> 00:29:30,702 Speaker 2: molest so he was released by the California Department of 581 00:29:30,702 --> 00:29:34,102 Speaker 2: Corrections after only thirty four months. So imagine that he's 582 00:29:34,182 --> 00:29:37,542 Speaker 2: that don't take rides from strangers guys, gets a six 583 00:29:37,662 --> 00:29:41,582 Speaker 2: year old girl, rapes her, almost kills her, and he's 584 00:29:41,622 --> 00:29:45,182 Speaker 2: released after thirty four months. And my lead detective on 585 00:29:45,222 --> 00:29:47,822 Speaker 2: that is again Craig Robinson. He's a superityguard judge now 586 00:29:47,822 --> 00:29:51,302 Speaker 2: and he's absolutely brilliant. And when we were working on they'll. 587 00:29:51,022 --> 00:29:51,702 Speaker 3: Call a trial. 588 00:29:52,302 --> 00:29:54,982 Speaker 2: His estimate, the other detectives who worked on other cases 589 00:29:55,022 --> 00:29:57,742 Speaker 2: moulding him agree probably killed one hundred people and it 590 00:29:57,782 --> 00:29:59,582 Speaker 2: was almost all of them after his release. 591 00:29:59,782 --> 00:30:00,582 Speaker 1: That's insane. 592 00:30:00,902 --> 00:30:04,182 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an example of the system really failing those victims. 593 00:30:04,302 --> 00:30:06,662 Speaker 2: So there's lessons for people to learn. 594 00:30:06,862 --> 00:30:09,182 Speaker 1: And as you say, it's another example of just how 595 00:30:09,262 --> 00:30:25,342 Speaker 1: much high pressure responsibility there is in your position. You 596 00:30:25,462 --> 00:30:28,622 Speaker 1: explore two DV murder cases in detail in your book. 597 00:30:28,702 --> 00:30:31,542 Speaker 1: The other one is one that many will remember. It 598 00:30:31,582 --> 00:30:35,062 Speaker 1: was made famous by the podcast Dirty John John me 599 00:30:35,182 --> 00:30:36,862 Speaker 1: and for those not across the story, he was an 600 00:30:36,902 --> 00:30:39,782 Speaker 1: online dating con man. He pursued relationships with women to 601 00:30:39,822 --> 00:30:42,622 Speaker 1: extort them. How did you become involved in that case? 602 00:30:43,022 --> 00:30:45,582 Speaker 2: So that was a Newport Beach case. What happened on that? 603 00:30:45,662 --> 00:30:48,622 Speaker 2: For those of you don't know it, That podcast is phenomenal. 604 00:30:48,702 --> 00:30:50,022 Speaker 2: So it was done by a friend of mine named 605 00:30:50,062 --> 00:30:53,462 Speaker 2: Chris Gofford with the Los Angeles Times and Connie Britten 606 00:30:53,502 --> 00:30:56,102 Speaker 2: and Eric Banner who's an Aussie. They did a multi 607 00:30:56,102 --> 00:30:59,462 Speaker 2: part series on that that shows this what is it, 608 00:30:59,502 --> 00:31:02,982 Speaker 2: The Tender Swindler on Netflix right now. Yep, Dirty John 609 00:31:03,142 --> 00:31:04,822 Speaker 2: was sort of the original of that. And you got 610 00:31:04,982 --> 00:31:08,302 Speaker 2: this guy who was using online dating to find vulnerable 611 00:31:08,302 --> 00:31:12,662 Speaker 2: women and he would target older women with money and 612 00:31:12,822 --> 00:31:15,022 Speaker 2: he would charm his way into their life and into 613 00:31:15,062 --> 00:31:17,302 Speaker 2: their bed, and they would fall in love with them 614 00:31:17,462 --> 00:31:21,822 Speaker 2: and then his nightmare side would come out. He portrayed 615 00:31:21,902 --> 00:31:26,182 Speaker 2: himself essentially as an anesthesiologist, as a doctor. You know, 616 00:31:26,222 --> 00:31:29,222 Speaker 2: he would show up for dates wearing scrubs, and he 617 00:31:29,262 --> 00:31:31,622 Speaker 2: knew how to talk to talk because he was actually 618 00:31:31,622 --> 00:31:35,302 Speaker 2: a nurse an esthetist before he lost his license in Michigan, 619 00:31:35,902 --> 00:31:39,262 Speaker 2: and he got involved with this woman, Debora Newell, whose 620 00:31:39,342 --> 00:31:42,662 Speaker 2: daughter Tara Nuwell is one of my favorite humans on 621 00:31:42,702 --> 00:31:45,542 Speaker 2: the planet Earth, and we've become friends since this. And essentially, 622 00:31:46,102 --> 00:31:48,742 Speaker 2: once their relationship went south and she realized that he 623 00:31:48,822 --> 00:31:51,582 Speaker 2: was a con man and a monster, she was trying 624 00:31:51,622 --> 00:31:55,942 Speaker 2: to divorce him, and Tara was walking her dog, who 625 00:31:55,982 --> 00:31:59,782 Speaker 2: was an Australian shepherd. All these Aussie connections. Australian shepherd 626 00:31:59,782 --> 00:32:01,782 Speaker 2: didn't Cash and they're walking through the parking lot at 627 00:32:01,782 --> 00:32:05,222 Speaker 2: Newport Beach and it really is like something out of 628 00:32:05,262 --> 00:32:08,582 Speaker 2: a movie. She gets attacked from behind by this big, 629 00:32:08,622 --> 00:32:11,342 Speaker 2: giant guy with a knife and she realizes who it is. 630 00:32:11,782 --> 00:32:15,982 Speaker 2: It's John Meehan. It's her stepdad basically, and he's got 631 00:32:16,022 --> 00:32:19,622 Speaker 2: a knife. He stabbed her multiple times, and she weighs 632 00:32:19,622 --> 00:32:24,582 Speaker 2: about one hundred pounds and Cash, the Assie shepherd, bites him. 633 00:32:25,102 --> 00:32:29,422 Speaker 2: She's fighting somehow, She kicks the knife out of his hand, 634 00:32:30,262 --> 00:32:33,262 Speaker 2: picks up the knife, and she's a Walking Dead fan, 635 00:32:33,702 --> 00:32:35,782 Speaker 2: so she knows how to dispatch a monster, right, so 636 00:32:35,822 --> 00:32:36,302 Speaker 2: what are you doing? 637 00:32:36,342 --> 00:32:36,862 Speaker 3: Walking Dead? 638 00:32:37,422 --> 00:32:40,862 Speaker 2: She stabs him right in the eyeball and kills him. 639 00:32:41,382 --> 00:32:43,622 Speaker 2: And inside the van that he was trying to pull 640 00:32:43,622 --> 00:32:47,382 Speaker 2: her into, it was what detectives described as a kill kid. 641 00:32:47,542 --> 00:32:50,902 Speaker 2: There was duct tape, handcuffs, there was a gun, there 642 00:32:50,942 --> 00:32:54,582 Speaker 2: was even poison in there. So he was going to 643 00:32:54,702 --> 00:32:58,302 Speaker 2: kill her and she fought back. And this is an 644 00:32:58,342 --> 00:33:01,062 Speaker 2: athletic guy who weighed about two hundred and forty pounds, 645 00:33:01,502 --> 00:33:06,742 Speaker 2: big strapping man and crazy, angry and cash the dog 646 00:33:07,022 --> 00:33:09,382 Speaker 2: saved her and then she saved herself. Just it's an 647 00:33:09,382 --> 00:33:10,182 Speaker 2: amazing story. 648 00:33:11,182 --> 00:33:15,502 Speaker 1: And you came into the case on terror's side. 649 00:33:16,062 --> 00:33:18,982 Speaker 2: I have to review every homicide that happens. My cities 650 00:33:18,982 --> 00:33:22,942 Speaker 2: were Irvine, Newport Beach, Coast, Mesa, and Laguna Beach, California. 651 00:33:23,022 --> 00:33:26,502 Speaker 2: So because it's a vertical unit, it means any murders 652 00:33:26,502 --> 00:33:28,622 Speaker 2: that happened in those cities, I get the call, I'd 653 00:33:28,662 --> 00:33:30,542 Speaker 2: go with my investigator and I would help. 654 00:33:30,382 --> 00:33:32,582 Speaker 3: Detectives work the case up from the very beginning. 655 00:33:33,102 --> 00:33:36,262 Speaker 2: So that was one where clearly in my mind it 656 00:33:36,302 --> 00:33:38,902 Speaker 2: was self defense and the detective's minds it was self defense. 657 00:33:38,942 --> 00:33:41,862 Speaker 2: But you have to go through the process of objectively 658 00:33:41,942 --> 00:33:44,822 Speaker 2: reviewing the evidence and finding out everything we can about 659 00:33:44,862 --> 00:33:47,302 Speaker 2: who he was, who she was, you know, and putting 660 00:33:47,302 --> 00:33:50,262 Speaker 2: it together. Because there are murders, some of which I 661 00:33:50,262 --> 00:33:53,062 Speaker 2: talk about in my book that at the beginning they 662 00:33:53,142 --> 00:33:54,302 Speaker 2: look like one thing and. 663 00:33:54,302 --> 00:33:57,822 Speaker 3: Later it turns out to be completely. 664 00:33:56,822 --> 00:34:00,062 Speaker 2: Different, and you got to really be careful, of course, 665 00:34:00,142 --> 00:34:02,142 Speaker 2: because you're talking about the life of the human beings. 666 00:34:02,702 --> 00:34:05,022 Speaker 2: But that was one that the deeper we looked, the 667 00:34:05,182 --> 00:34:09,182 Speaker 2: bigger monster Mihan appeared to be, and. 668 00:34:09,262 --> 00:34:10,902 Speaker 3: Just the story just got crazy. 669 00:34:10,942 --> 00:34:12,982 Speaker 2: So that's one where at the end of it, when 670 00:34:13,022 --> 00:34:15,582 Speaker 2: we formally cleared her, I really thought that we needed 671 00:34:15,582 --> 00:34:18,222 Speaker 2: to share that one with the world. That's one of 672 00:34:18,222 --> 00:34:21,742 Speaker 2: the few cases that truly, you know, when you were homicides, 673 00:34:21,982 --> 00:34:24,142 Speaker 2: you see a lot of really sad things, and that 674 00:34:24,342 --> 00:34:28,342 Speaker 2: was the happiest ending I encountered in almost two decades 675 00:34:28,502 --> 00:34:29,222 Speaker 2: doing that work. 676 00:34:29,382 --> 00:34:34,702 Speaker 1: So to talk about DV more generally domestic violence murder, 677 00:34:34,782 --> 00:34:37,582 Speaker 1: you talk about it taking up half your caseload at 678 00:34:37,622 --> 00:34:40,382 Speaker 1: any one time, and it's two often women that are 679 00:34:40,422 --> 00:34:42,342 Speaker 1: dying at the hands of men. It's a topic that 680 00:34:42,342 --> 00:34:46,342 Speaker 1: we talk about a lot on this podcast. What is 681 00:34:46,382 --> 00:34:49,582 Speaker 1: your opinion on that? How do we improve those statistics? 682 00:34:50,182 --> 00:34:53,262 Speaker 2: One of the tragic things about those domestic violence cases 683 00:34:53,342 --> 00:34:56,422 Speaker 2: is that you know, among the family and friends of 684 00:34:56,502 --> 00:35:01,062 Speaker 2: the victim, oftentimes they can see it coming, and oftentimes 685 00:35:01,382 --> 00:35:03,062 Speaker 2: you wind up put the situation where the woman as 686 00:35:03,142 --> 00:35:05,862 Speaker 2: financially dependent on the man and they might have a 687 00:35:05,902 --> 00:35:09,942 Speaker 2: couple of kids together, and alcohol or drugs is almost 688 00:35:09,942 --> 00:35:13,022 Speaker 2: always a actor in that. But the early signs are 689 00:35:13,062 --> 00:35:15,062 Speaker 2: a parent almost right away. 690 00:35:15,262 --> 00:35:15,422 Speaker 3: You know. 691 00:35:15,462 --> 00:35:17,462 Speaker 2: I actually even read a little segment on this because 692 00:35:17,462 --> 00:35:20,502 Speaker 2: that was an online dating case, and you know, post COVID, 693 00:35:21,102 --> 00:35:23,902 Speaker 2: everybody who's single has been online. I think that one 694 00:35:23,942 --> 00:35:26,382 Speaker 2: of the things that women really have to be cognizant 695 00:35:26,422 --> 00:35:28,742 Speaker 2: of they meet a man at a wedding or at 696 00:35:28,742 --> 00:35:31,582 Speaker 2: work where there's this sort of natural vetting process where 697 00:35:31,582 --> 00:35:34,502 Speaker 2: you have friends in common. I think that the biggest 698 00:35:34,542 --> 00:35:36,782 Speaker 2: red flag for a lot of women should be control. 699 00:35:37,302 --> 00:35:39,622 Speaker 2: You've got a guy who's jealous early on, when he's 700 00:35:39,622 --> 00:35:42,102 Speaker 2: got a problem with the men you might hang out 701 00:35:42,102 --> 00:35:44,902 Speaker 2: with at work or even like and I know this 702 00:35:44,982 --> 00:35:48,702 Speaker 2: is controversial along some men, but like a positive relationship 703 00:35:48,702 --> 00:35:51,542 Speaker 2: with an ex husband or an ex boyfriend. Men that 704 00:35:51,662 --> 00:35:54,342 Speaker 2: have a big problem with that are the same ones 705 00:35:54,382 --> 00:35:57,302 Speaker 2: that oftentimes will want to isolate a woman from her 706 00:35:57,302 --> 00:36:02,222 Speaker 2: friends and family and that controlling personality. Those are the 707 00:36:02,262 --> 00:36:04,462 Speaker 2: types of guys that when they get drunk, they'll get 708 00:36:04,502 --> 00:36:07,702 Speaker 2: physical and it's a cycle. Then they'll be super apologetic 709 00:36:07,782 --> 00:36:09,822 Speaker 2: and the woman doesn't want to blow up her own 710 00:36:09,822 --> 00:36:12,902 Speaker 2: life and I really legitimately love the guy. But you 711 00:36:13,022 --> 00:36:16,462 Speaker 2: see that progress over time. So it'll start with grabbing 712 00:36:16,702 --> 00:36:18,702 Speaker 2: a woman by the arm and then pretty soon it 713 00:36:18,742 --> 00:36:21,062 Speaker 2: turns into a push when you get in to hit 714 00:36:21,182 --> 00:36:24,342 Speaker 2: somebody that hits. I think that the danger of online 715 00:36:24,382 --> 00:36:26,862 Speaker 2: dating is that natural vetting. Like if you meet somebody 716 00:36:26,862 --> 00:36:29,822 Speaker 2: through mutual friends, they know most of the skeletons in 717 00:36:29,862 --> 00:36:31,822 Speaker 2: the closet of the person they're setting you up with, 718 00:36:31,862 --> 00:36:33,942 Speaker 2: whether it's a man or a woman. But you know, 719 00:36:33,942 --> 00:36:37,262 Speaker 2: with online dating, we're really on our own and we learn. 720 00:36:37,502 --> 00:36:39,502 Speaker 2: You know, on one hand, it's kind of cool because 721 00:36:39,502 --> 00:36:41,942 Speaker 2: you meet somebody in the relationship is really just between 722 00:36:41,942 --> 00:36:43,982 Speaker 2: the two of you and you can meet each other's friends. 723 00:36:44,342 --> 00:36:46,782 Speaker 2: But on the other hand, you can be with a 724 00:36:46,982 --> 00:36:50,822 Speaker 2: charming psycho like John Meehan, and it's very easy to 725 00:36:50,902 --> 00:36:53,622 Speaker 2: get sucked into that if you're not careful. And there's 726 00:36:53,662 --> 00:36:55,742 Speaker 2: plenty of guys that aren't going to murder you that 727 00:36:55,822 --> 00:36:58,502 Speaker 2: are just going to be really terrible boyfriends or husbands. 728 00:36:58,622 --> 00:37:02,822 Speaker 2: And I think that sense of control, jealousy, insecurity, all 729 00:37:02,902 --> 00:37:05,502 Speaker 2: of those things are things that I think women should 730 00:37:05,542 --> 00:37:06,502 Speaker 2: be very careful about. 731 00:37:06,782 --> 00:37:09,742 Speaker 1: Red flags, Yeah, they're red flagged. I know you've been 732 00:37:09,782 --> 00:37:12,662 Speaker 1: retired now since twenty nineteen. Do you miss it or 733 00:37:12,662 --> 00:37:14,022 Speaker 1: do you feel like you have a little bit more 734 00:37:14,062 --> 00:37:15,102 Speaker 1: space to breathe now? 735 00:37:15,502 --> 00:37:17,782 Speaker 3: All right, now, it's twisted as it sounds. I miss 736 00:37:17,782 --> 00:37:19,982 Speaker 3: it every day. Really, I missed my team. 737 00:37:20,142 --> 00:37:22,182 Speaker 2: I work with some of the most wonderful people. The 738 00:37:22,222 --> 00:37:24,342 Speaker 2: crime lab personnel to show up at three in the morning, 739 00:37:24,422 --> 00:37:26,182 Speaker 2: in the middle of the night are some of the 740 00:37:26,182 --> 00:37:28,942 Speaker 2: best humans I've ever encountered. And the detectives, the men 741 00:37:28,982 --> 00:37:31,702 Speaker 2: and women I worked with the law enforcement detectives and 742 00:37:31,782 --> 00:37:34,142 Speaker 2: police in the United States right now, I don't know 743 00:37:34,182 --> 00:37:35,942 Speaker 2: how it is an honest but they've had a really 744 00:37:36,062 --> 00:37:39,022 Speaker 2: rough time in the last few years after George Floyd. 745 00:37:39,182 --> 00:37:41,942 Speaker 2: And these are people that are in my experience, that 746 00:37:41,982 --> 00:37:45,102 Speaker 2: are underpaid. I wish everybody could see what I see. 747 00:37:45,382 --> 00:37:47,822 Speaker 2: You know, they haven't eaten in twelve hours and they're 748 00:37:47,862 --> 00:37:50,182 Speaker 2: working a scene without complaint. A lot of times have 749 00:37:50,222 --> 00:37:52,422 Speaker 2: to stand in the rain, we're waiting for warrance to 750 00:37:52,422 --> 00:37:55,102 Speaker 2: get signed by a judge, and you know they The 751 00:37:55,222 --> 00:37:58,782 Speaker 2: model in Orange County is the prosecutor goes out at 752 00:37:58,822 --> 00:38:01,822 Speaker 2: the time of the murder and then assigned detective stays 753 00:38:01,862 --> 00:38:03,382 Speaker 2: with the case all the way through to the end 754 00:38:03,422 --> 00:38:06,462 Speaker 2: of trial. So you're I'm there with them reviewing search 755 00:38:06,502 --> 00:38:08,982 Speaker 2: warrants the night it happens. They're sitting next to me 756 00:38:09,742 --> 00:38:11,582 Speaker 2: at trial, and the jury comes in with a verdict 757 00:38:11,582 --> 00:38:13,902 Speaker 2: and then it's sentencing. So you get this very close 758 00:38:13,942 --> 00:38:17,782 Speaker 2: working relationship with them. They're amazing. I miss them every day. 759 00:38:18,142 --> 00:38:20,382 Speaker 2: Seventeen years is a long time, but yeah, I do. 760 00:38:20,422 --> 00:38:20,982 Speaker 3: I miss it. 761 00:38:21,862 --> 00:38:24,142 Speaker 1: And that's what you're hoping. I guess people get from 762 00:38:24,142 --> 00:38:28,142 Speaker 1: your book to see that insider perspective, not just the crimes, 763 00:38:28,182 --> 00:38:30,742 Speaker 1: but the people like you who dedicate their life, who 764 00:38:30,782 --> 00:38:34,382 Speaker 1: sacrifice so much to make sure these bad people are 765 00:38:34,502 --> 00:38:35,422 Speaker 1: put behind bars. 766 00:38:35,982 --> 00:38:37,582 Speaker 3: I hope people see that in the book. 767 00:38:37,702 --> 00:38:40,822 Speaker 2: I am no Ernest Hemingway, the quality of person that 768 00:38:40,862 --> 00:38:43,462 Speaker 2: would dedicate their life to something like that. The other 769 00:38:43,502 --> 00:38:47,462 Speaker 2: prosecutors I work with, the cops, the CSI personnel, and 770 00:38:47,502 --> 00:38:49,702 Speaker 2: for that matter, of the judges that do those types 771 00:38:49,742 --> 00:38:54,022 Speaker 2: of cases, the court staff and thankfully the juries tend 772 00:38:54,102 --> 00:38:56,222 Speaker 2: to be really good. They take it seriously, and so 773 00:38:56,622 --> 00:38:58,862 Speaker 2: faith in humanity has challenged a little bit each time 774 00:38:58,862 --> 00:39:02,542 Speaker 2: you encounter something like that, and then it's restored immediately 775 00:39:02,742 --> 00:39:03,822 Speaker 2: with all the people that. 776 00:39:03,782 --> 00:39:04,342 Speaker 3: You work with. 777 00:39:09,422 --> 00:39:12,182 Speaker 1: Thanks to Matt for share his story with us. True 778 00:39:12,182 --> 00:39:15,622 Speaker 1: Crime Conversations is a Mumma mea podcast hosted and produced 779 00:39:15,662 --> 00:39:18,862 Speaker 1: by me Jemma Bass, with audio design by Scott Stronik. 780 00:39:19,182 --> 00:39:22,782 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Live Proud. Thanks so much for listening. 781 00:39:23,062 --> 00:39:25,982 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation