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Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. According to ABS

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Speaker 1: data and estimated, two point seven million Australians have experienced

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Speaker 1: being stalked. Drill down into those numbers a little deeper,

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Speaker 1: and it turns out one in five women and one

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Speaker 1: in fifteen men have been stalked, with women almost eight

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Speaker 1: times more likely to be stalked by a man, while

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Speaker 1: men were stalked similarly by both genders. The types of

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Speaker 1: women who are most likely to be stalked are young

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Speaker 1: who are students who rent their home, and those experiencing

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Speaker 1: financial stress. Over three quarters of those women who reported

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Speaker 1: having been stalked knew the man who was following them.

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Speaker 1: The most common perpetrator is an intimate partner, both current

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Speaker 1: and former. In fact, half of the women who were

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Speaker 1: stalked by a male intimate partner were assaulted or at

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Speaker 1: least threatened with assault. The majority receive unweas to contact

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Speaker 1: via the internet, phone or in the mail. Sixty percent

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Speaker 1: experienced their storkags turning up wherever they were, fifty two

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Speaker 1: percent were followed or tracked. Samantha Stites experienced all of

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Speaker 1: these things and then despite attempts to stop it, it

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Speaker 1: got much much worse. I'm Claire Murphy and this is

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Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious

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Speaker 1: crimes by speaking to the people.

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Speaker 2: Who know the most about them.

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Speaker 1: Samantha Stites fit all the criteria you just heard for

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Speaker 1: a woman most likely to be stalked. She was young,

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Speaker 1: a student at Grand Valley State University in Michigan. She

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Speaker 1: rented an apartment with one of her good friends, and

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Speaker 1: until she met Christopher Thomas, was planning a future of adventure,

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Speaker 1: of career goals, and exploring her faith. But a meeting

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Speaker 1: at a Christian group would change her life. For the

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Speaker 1: next thirteen years. While Samantha lived her life, Christopher watched

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Speaker 1: while she ate, slept, worked, celebrated, grieved. No matter what

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Speaker 1: life event she experienced, Christopher Thomas watched it his obsession

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Speaker 1: with the girl. He thought he'd one day Mary, persisting

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Speaker 1: even through a long term restraining order. Then one day

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two, Christopher took his obsession to a

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Speaker 1: whole new level, breaking into Sam's home and taking her prisoner.

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Speaker 1: What Samantha endured in the hours she spent locked in

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Speaker 1: a soundproof box in a storage facility not far from

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Speaker 1: her home is shocking, but her resilience an ability to

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Speaker 1: think straight in the face of horror would see her

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Speaker 1: not only be set free, but finally show the system

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Speaker 1: that had failed her that she would not allow Christopher

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Speaker 1: Thomas to beat her. Samantha joins us now. Samantha, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate

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Speaker 1: you taking the time to talk to us about your

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Speaker 1: experience and hopefully what we can learn from it as well.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us here in Australia.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, pleasure, pleasure to be here. It's I know your

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Speaker 3: morning there, my evening here in the US, but happy

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Speaker 3: to be here. Thanks for the conversation.

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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, we want to say thank you

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Speaker 1: for actually being here, being here because there was.

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Speaker 2: A moment in your life where you didn't.

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Speaker 1: Know if you would be here speaking to me today

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Speaker 1: as you are. So thank you for surviving what you've

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Speaker 1: survived and living to tell the tale and using that

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Speaker 1: opportunity to help us understand the dangers of stalking a.

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Speaker 2: Little bit better. We really do appreciate it. I guess we.

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Speaker 1: Should start from the beginning. Can you take us back

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Speaker 1: to when you're in college and you join a Christian group, Like,

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Speaker 1: what was SAM like then, What were your hopes and

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Speaker 1: dreams for the future. What was your life looking like

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Speaker 1: before Christopher stepped into it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I let's see college. I am thirty three now,

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Speaker 3: so this was I graduated high school in two thousand

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Speaker 3: and nine, so started college kind of right off the bat.

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Speaker 3: From there, I wasn't sure what I wanted to study.

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Speaker 3: I thought something kind of in the math and science realm.

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Speaker 3: I was always a big athlete, and in college I

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Speaker 3: chose to go to like a larger university and not

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Speaker 3: play sports and just focus on academics and you know,

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Speaker 3: do some intermural sports on the side. Things like that.

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Speaker 3: I had a really hard time kind of finding a

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Speaker 3: social group when I first started college. My freshman year

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Speaker 3: was really difficult, and then by my sophomore year, I

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Speaker 3: had found this Christian group on campus. I didn't identify

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Speaker 3: as a Christian, but the people I met were just

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Speaker 3: so genuine and caring that I kind of got swept

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Speaker 3: up into their group and learning, you know, about what

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Speaker 3: they believed. And I kind of joined this Christian group

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Speaker 3: when it sort of became a big corner zone of

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Speaker 3: my you know, education and experience in college, so a

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Speaker 3: lot different than a lot of university students that are

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Speaker 3: partying and drinking all the time. I was leading Bible studies,

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Speaker 3: you know, going to church. We were playing frisbee on

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Speaker 3: the weekends or like American football, things like that. And

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Speaker 3: I met Christopher my must have been my third year

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Speaker 3: when I met him in the fall. We had been

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Speaker 3: just playing frisbee at my off campus apartment in some

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Speaker 3: green space there and he had come out and joined

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Speaker 3: us to play. There were I don't know, maybe six

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Speaker 3: of us, and so we kind of introduced one another

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Speaker 3: and what's your name, what are you studying? Kind of

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Speaker 3: the basics, And I could tell he was significantly older

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Speaker 3: than me, Like he wasn't a traditional student. He was,

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Speaker 3: you know, six or eight years older than me, which

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Speaker 3: automatically you think somebody is going to have a harder time,

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Speaker 3: you know, fitting in. So we were all out trying

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Speaker 3: to make ourselves and our campus welcoming for new students

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Speaker 3: and you know, if they're interested in our group to

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Speaker 3: you know, promote that as well. And I could now

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Speaker 3: just notice he was a really awkward guy, would have

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Speaker 3: trouble making friends. I just kind of offered kindness to him.

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Speaker 3: And I don't really remember a lot about meeting him.

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Speaker 3: I just thought, this is some guy who live at

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Speaker 3: this apartment complex, and you know, it's possible I'll see

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Speaker 3: him again at the bus stop. But I didn't really think,

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Speaker 3: you know too much about it.

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Speaker 1: Had you had many like high school relationships with boys

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Speaker 1: or like, what was your experience like before Christopher, what

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Speaker 1: was your understanding of like relationships between men and women

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Speaker 1: and negotiating that. Had you had any experience in that

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Speaker 1: area before?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I had been in a couple of relationships. I

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Speaker 3: guess the longest was like a year. You know, I

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Speaker 3: was really focused on academics. I wasn't super into dating,

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Speaker 3: and in college I was pretty focused. You know, he

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Speaker 3: wouldn't have been anyone I ever would have had interest in,

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Speaker 3: you know, based on his looks or his personality really

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Speaker 3: any of it. You know, I had zero romantic interest.

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Speaker 3: And it didn't take too long really before I found

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Speaker 3: out that he you know, either he thought that he

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Speaker 3: could be a friend to me, or we could be friends,

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Speaker 3: or maybe more than that. I could see that there

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Speaker 3: was interest on his end after a while, you know,

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Speaker 3: back in that day, in twenty eleven twenty twelve, especially

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Speaker 3: on a college campus, you'd add somebody on Facebook once

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Speaker 3: you met them, and you know, kind of build your

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Speaker 3: social connections that way. And I noticed after a few

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Speaker 3: days he had messaged me on that platform, which I

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Speaker 3: thought was kind of weird. But I'm like, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: people who weren't very social in person sometimes have an

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Speaker 3: easier time, you know, messaging behind a keyboard. And it

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Speaker 3: was just very like, how's your day going. I was

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Speaker 3: really nice meeting you the other day. Kind of really

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Speaker 3: basic things, but I didn't think too much of it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he was kind of an awkward guy, so

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Speaker 3: you know, I gave him a pass, and maybe compared

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Speaker 3: to other people, I maybe would have been more dismissive,

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Speaker 3: but to him, I was like, he's just awkward, doesn't

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Speaker 3: really know social cues very well. I was trying to

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Speaker 3: be kind to him.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's the reason I asked, because you were very

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Speaker 1: diplomatic in your dealings with Christopher at the beginning, because

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Speaker 1: he was very persistent and in the documentary you can

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Speaker 1: see how many messages he stand and how many times

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Speaker 1: he asked you to either go somewhere with him or

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Speaker 1: have a date with him, and you very kindly and

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Speaker 1: politely dismissed those advances, and it seems like it didn't

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Speaker 1: matter what you said. And at the beginning, it seemed

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Speaker 1: like you were kind of put him off rather than

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Speaker 1: completely cut him off, which I know that a lot

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Speaker 1: of women struggle with because you don't want to sometimes

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Speaker 1: outright say no to somebody because you don't know how

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Speaker 1: that will impact them or how they might respond to that.

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Speaker 1: Was there ever a feeling when you were trying to

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Speaker 1: kind of let him down easy that was it more

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Speaker 1: just like you were being kind to someone who was

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Speaker 1: socially awkward, or was there anything in the back of

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Speaker 1: your mind, any red flags that you can look back

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Speaker 1: on potentially now that made you think maybe I shouldn't

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Speaker 1: confront this person in that way.

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Speaker 3: There really weren't any red flags to me, you know

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Speaker 3: at that time, you know, thinking I was twenty maybe

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Speaker 3: twenty years old. You know, this was before the Me

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Speaker 3: too movement. This was like in sort of a Christian

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Speaker 3: setting where I felt like I had to be kind

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Speaker 3: and welcoming to newcomers and be a nice, polite person,

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Speaker 3: which I was trying to do, you know, Regardless, I

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Speaker 3: didn't really. It didn't strike me as he was, you know,

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Speaker 3: that this would ever go down this path of stalking.

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Speaker 3: It was just somebody who doesn't really have friends, this

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Speaker 3: new on campus, doesn't really get social cues. So I'm

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Speaker 3: not going to you know, shut him down hard at

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Speaker 3: the beginning and have somebody, you know, I don't want

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Speaker 3: to be labeled, you know, a bitch or you know,

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Speaker 3: something like that. I want to you know, be kind

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Speaker 3: to people and give him respect. If I'm not interested.

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Speaker 3: He does ask me out, you know, do it in

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Speaker 3: as many ways to say, you know, I'm busy. He

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Speaker 3: must get the picture. I don't ever want to spend

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Speaker 3: time with him. I always have an excuse, you know.

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Speaker 3: And then I start saying, you know, I'm not interested

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Speaker 3: more clearly. And it takes some time, really before I

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Speaker 3: realize that it's not just that he's socially awkward and

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Speaker 3: doesn't get it, but that he's ignoring my wishes. And

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Speaker 3: that's kind of where things start to go a little sideways,

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Speaker 3: and really where I start to notice that it's more

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Speaker 3: irritating at the beginning for me, it's more irritating than frightening.

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Speaker 1: I think, do you remember when that shift happened, like

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Speaker 1: what was he doing? There was a lot of messaging

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Speaker 1: on Facebook. In the documentary, you explain and experience where

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Speaker 1: he's kind of come to your workplace with flowers, even

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Speaker 1: though you'd made it very clear that you were not

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Speaker 1: interested in him in any way, shape or form, Like

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Speaker 1: where did it start to turn from you being kind

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Speaker 1: to someone who wasn't quite understanding to it being this

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Speaker 1: is not right.

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Speaker 3: I would say it was that kind of altercation at

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Speaker 3: the bus stop we had. Rare showed up to my

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Speaker 3: workplace in college with flowers after my grandpa had died.

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Speaker 3: He had heard through the grape vine or potentially social

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Speaker 3: media or something that you know, my grandpa had passed away,

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Speaker 3: and at this point I had blocked him his phone number,

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Speaker 3: I had blocked him on email, and like multiple mediums,

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Speaker 3: I had told him very clearly in person and you know,

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Speaker 3: via text or messaging like I'm not interested, please leave

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Speaker 3: me alone. And then he shows up again in person

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Speaker 3: and I just think I've told you so many different

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Speaker 3: ways that I like, I'm speaking English, like you're understanding me.

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Speaker 3: This isn't somebody who's not getting it anymore. It's somebody

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Speaker 3: who doesn't care to listen to what I'm asking them,

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Speaker 3: and I had that wasn't really the first time I

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Speaker 3: had kind of experienced that where, you know, it's different

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Speaker 3: than like a sibling or a friend, like put your

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Speaker 3: dirty dishes in the dishwasher. It's like you're asking personal

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Speaker 3: space and for someone to leave you alone and they're

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Speaker 3: not doing that. And it's not that they're not understanding

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Speaker 3: the clues you're trying to put. It's that you're saying

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Speaker 3: it very clearly and they're still you know, so we

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Speaker 3: have this kind of I get angry with him at

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Speaker 3: this bus stop and other people are witnessing this and

225
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Speaker 3: me yelling at him, telling him, I've asked you to

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Speaker 3: leave me alone so many times. I don't know why

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Speaker 3: you'd show up to my work with flowers. I don't

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Speaker 3: know what makes you think you know I have any

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Speaker 3: interest in talking with you. I've blocked you. I've asked

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Speaker 3: you to leave me alone. You know, there's people like

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Speaker 3: looking at us, and I feel like I'm embarrass because

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Speaker 3: i feel like I'm making a scene. But I'm like,

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Speaker 3: maybe he'll listen to me if I yell like I don't,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't really know what else. But to me,

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Speaker 3: that was really where things started shifting, and it was

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Speaker 3: he clearly knows what I'm saying and is defying it

237
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Speaker 3: and just keeps finding other ways to try to see

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Speaker 3: me or give me things or that was really the

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Speaker 3: first time it became something more than just oh, this

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Speaker 3: person doesn't really get it. And you know, I assumed

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Speaker 3: if I asked someone to leave me alone, that they will,

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Speaker 3: And so that was really the first time after strongly

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Speaker 3: asking him to leave me alone, like very bluntly, that

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Speaker 3: he came back and still found me somewhere.

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Speaker 1: At this stage, what did you know about Christopher other

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Speaker 1: than what you'd sort of seen of him whilst you're

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Speaker 1: a college together, Like did you know anything about him

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Speaker 1: beyond that, like his past or his family life? Like

249
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Speaker 1: what did you know about him at that stage?

250
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Speaker 3: I didn't know a lot. I mean, I knew he

251
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Speaker 3: was like an older student. He the one thing that

252
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Speaker 3: I knew about him that he told me kind of

253
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Speaker 3: once in confidence. He was really said he was really

254
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Speaker 3: struggling with anger at one point, and you know, confessed

255
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Speaker 3: he had been in some bar fight or something when

256
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Speaker 3: he was younger, and that he just got mad at

257
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Speaker 3: this person and tried to beat them up, and you know,

258
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Speaker 3: spent the night in jail or something, and so you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking, Okay, this person also maybe has impulse and

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Speaker 3: anger issues, and that this is something I should also

261
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Speaker 3: be careful with him about because if he you know,

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Speaker 3: he's stronger than I am. For sure, he's bigger than me.

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Speaker 3: You know, if he were to get angry, there's you know,

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Speaker 3: aside from somebody else stepping in, he could potentially hurt me.

265
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Speaker 3: I never thought he would, but in the back of

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Speaker 3: my mind that was like the one piece of info

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Speaker 3: I kind of had about him was that, you know,

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Speaker 3: he had been in this bar fight at one point

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Speaker 3: and the police got involved, know anything about any prior

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Speaker 3: stocking or other issues. He had a couple friend like

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Speaker 3: long standing friends that seemed like pretty normal people, and

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Speaker 3: I was like, I don't, like, there's nothing that really

273
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Speaker 3: makes me think that this guy is really off until

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Speaker 3: you know, this interaction at the bus stop.

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Speaker 1: It does escalate from here, even when you move away

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Speaker 1: from where you are going to college, like he seeks

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Speaker 1: you out and finds you like miles and miles away

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Speaker 1: from where you initially have contact with him. What was

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Speaker 1: that like to know that this man is now like

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Speaker 1: he's becoming a threat. He's actually following you and not

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Speaker 1: just following you down the street, but like to an

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Speaker 1: entirely new town.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean, hindsight, it's always twenty twenty. But

284
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Speaker 3: you know, at the time, I thought, you know, this

285
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Speaker 3: isn't just a problem that I'm going to leave behind

286
00:16:00,392 --> 00:16:03,432
Speaker 3: when I graduate, I won't be on this campus anymore.

287
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Speaker 3: He has a like he's got a motorcycle, which where

288
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Speaker 3: we live you can only ride a few months a

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Speaker 3: year because of the snow. Like I'm going to be

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Speaker 3: moving to a different part of the state, like two

291
00:16:14,872 --> 00:16:18,552
Speaker 3: plus hours away by car. And then I had planned

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Speaker 3: to go halfway across the country for this like ministry internship.

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Speaker 1: So I thought, so, you're like, I can just label

294
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Speaker 1: this behind, right, I.

295
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Speaker 3: Can just leave this person behind despite what's happening. You know,

296
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Speaker 3: I don't necessarily have to get the law involved, because yeah,

297
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Speaker 3: probably what he's doing is wrong. But why would I

298
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Speaker 3: go through all of that if I'm just going to

299
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Speaker 3: be you know, moving I'm you know, I was a

300
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Speaker 3: very busy college student. I had an internship, I worked

301
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Speaker 3: all through college. I had a heavy course load, I volunteered,

302
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Speaker 3: Like it was just I didn't have spare time to

303
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Speaker 3: think about how can I, you know, go about this.

304
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Speaker 3: I just thought, you know, I'm going to leave this

305
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Speaker 3: person behind, and this is going to be history. I'm

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Speaker 3: never going to see what.

307
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Speaker 1: Yeah, but also too at twenty, like I had a

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Speaker 1: fakely stalky incident with someone when I was also in

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Speaker 1: my early twenty and people always ask me every time

310
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Speaker 1: I tell the story, did you tell police? And I

311
00:17:10,591 --> 00:17:12,472
Speaker 1: was like, well, no, I didn't because I was twenty

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Speaker 1: something and just kind of getting on with my life

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Speaker 1: and it didn't really occur to me that I should.

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Speaker 2: Have probably taken it further.

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Speaker 1: Did you feel that way, Like, you know, when you're

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Speaker 1: twenty and you've got your life ahead of you and

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Speaker 1: things are happening, and like you did, the last thing

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Speaker 1: you want to do was like get involved in all

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Speaker 1: of that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Does that make sense to you too?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? And I think I think maybe had I had

322
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Speaker 3: more time where I would have been on the same

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Speaker 3: campus or within the same city or something as him,

324
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Speaker 3: I probably would have. But knowing that I was moving

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Speaker 3: multiple hours away and he was, I knew he was

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Speaker 3: still going to be at that campus studying. I was like,

327
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Speaker 3: there's this big physical divide where it's not going to

328
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Speaker 3: be easy for him to come check up on me.

329
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Speaker 3: Like if I have him blocked on everything, there's essentially

330
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Speaker 3: no way he can get in touch with me. He's

331
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Speaker 3: not just going to be you know, driving places to

332
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Speaker 3: find me and then I'm going to be several states

333
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Speaker 3: away where it's like a fourteen hour Like, there's no

334
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Speaker 3: way I'm going to see this person again. You know,

335
00:18:10,591 --> 00:18:13,591
Speaker 3: he's not going to abandon his studies or something, and

336
00:18:14,671 --> 00:18:16,591
Speaker 3: you know it Just to me, it was like this

337
00:18:16,671 --> 00:18:19,032
Speaker 3: is an easier fix of like I'm just going to

338
00:18:19,351 --> 00:18:22,272
Speaker 3: move on with my life and distance and time is

339
00:18:22,311 --> 00:18:25,391
Speaker 3: going to solve it because he's not like, he's not crazy,

340
00:18:25,552 --> 00:18:30,032
Speaker 3: he's just another college student. And then that summer, it

341
00:18:30,071 --> 00:18:33,111
Speaker 3: was like two days before I was planning to move

342
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Speaker 3: halfway across the country for this ministry internship. He shows

343
00:18:37,232 --> 00:18:43,272
Speaker 3: up in my hometown and I'm shocked. I'm like, how

344
00:18:43,311 --> 00:18:45,552
Speaker 3: did he find me here? I mean my town was

345
00:18:45,631 --> 00:18:49,032
Speaker 3: like very small, but to just show up somewhere and

346
00:18:49,111 --> 00:18:52,552
Speaker 3: drive around until you find somebody is weird. It's wild

347
00:18:52,591 --> 00:18:55,071
Speaker 3: to me. And then he says, hey, I think I'm

348
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Speaker 3: going to go to the same internship as you. I

349
00:18:56,871 --> 00:19:00,231
Speaker 3: just got accepted. Can you give me a ride? And

350
00:19:00,272 --> 00:19:03,272
Speaker 3: I'm just like, there's no way we're both going halfway

351
00:19:03,272 --> 00:19:06,871
Speaker 3: across the country. I'm not I don't know, but what

352
00:19:06,911 --> 00:19:09,311
Speaker 3: can I do about this? This person isn't listening to me,

353
00:19:09,391 --> 00:19:11,271
Speaker 3: and now they're trying to ruin. The thing I've been

354
00:19:11,311 --> 00:19:14,631
Speaker 3: looking forward to is kind of this gap year, you know,

355
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Speaker 3: between finishing undergrad and going to grad school. That was

356
00:19:18,472 --> 00:19:20,231
Speaker 3: kind of my plan is to take this sort of

357
00:19:20,311 --> 00:19:23,552
Speaker 3: gap year. And do I not do that now or

358
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Speaker 3: do I try to get him kicked out? And it

359
00:19:25,232 --> 00:19:27,431
Speaker 3: becomes really obvious I need to kind of get the

360
00:19:27,512 --> 00:19:30,631
Speaker 3: legal system involved at this point. And you know, my

361
00:19:30,671 --> 00:19:33,512
Speaker 3: family friend is like, tell me more about this guy,

362
00:19:33,552 --> 00:19:36,432
Speaker 3: what's going on? And the more we like lay everything out,

363
00:19:36,472 --> 00:19:40,232
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, We're like, yeah, he's stalking me. And

364
00:19:40,272 --> 00:19:45,951
Speaker 3: it's you know, clearly even distance isn't stopping him. Nothing

365
00:19:45,992 --> 00:19:48,952
Speaker 3: I've said has stopped him. And now this you know distance,

366
00:19:49,032 --> 00:19:52,272
Speaker 3: and now he's even trying to come even farther, you know,

367
00:19:52,351 --> 00:19:56,792
Speaker 3: potentially abandoning his studies and coming halfway across the country.

368
00:19:56,911 --> 00:20:01,272
Speaker 3: We're like, now so yeah, we file for a personal

369
00:20:01,311 --> 00:20:05,951
Speaker 3: protection order and right before I left, and it was

370
00:20:05,952 --> 00:20:07,792
Speaker 3: for set years, which was unheard of.

371
00:20:08,472 --> 00:20:11,351
Speaker 1: Did that actually make you feel, Siphon, knowing that order

372
00:20:11,391 --> 00:20:11,871
Speaker 1: was in place?

373
00:20:12,311 --> 00:20:16,071
Speaker 3: It did. I knew that I could petition in another

374
00:20:16,192 --> 00:20:19,111
Speaker 3: state for another one and it likely could be granted,

375
00:20:19,232 --> 00:20:22,351
Speaker 3: like because I was moving out of state. But I figured,

376
00:20:22,831 --> 00:20:25,911
Speaker 3: you know, having the law involved made me feel like

377
00:20:25,911 --> 00:20:28,151
Speaker 3: there was somebody else on my side and somebody else

378
00:20:28,192 --> 00:20:31,432
Speaker 3: telling this person that what you're doing isn't okay. And

379
00:20:31,992 --> 00:20:34,831
Speaker 3: essentially it sort of solved the issue. Like I got

380
00:20:34,911 --> 00:20:38,191
Speaker 3: him kicked out of that internship, we got this protection order,

381
00:20:39,032 --> 00:20:42,511
Speaker 3: and I ended up seeing him around the holidays. He

382
00:20:42,552 --> 00:20:47,071
Speaker 3: came out this ministry at a huge conference around the holidays,

383
00:20:47,272 --> 00:20:50,831
Speaker 3: and he found me there, Like he came around this corner.

384
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Speaker 3: There's like twenty thousand people at this big conference, like

385
00:20:54,472 --> 00:20:58,311
Speaker 3: needle in a haystack. So I liked tell security and

386
00:20:58,671 --> 00:21:03,552
Speaker 3: like have a male friend like escort me home every day,

387
00:21:03,712 --> 00:21:06,951
Speaker 3: like all of this stuff, and I never see him again.

388
00:21:07,391 --> 00:21:11,711
Speaker 3: Like seven years go by, and I think, you know,

389
00:21:11,792 --> 00:21:15,432
Speaker 3: it took that to finally shake him off and get

390
00:21:15,512 --> 00:21:18,712
Speaker 3: him to move on with life and then I finished

391
00:21:18,712 --> 00:21:21,311
Speaker 3: grad school and I moved back to sort of my

392
00:21:21,391 --> 00:21:25,991
Speaker 3: hometown more or less, you know that area, and I

393
00:21:26,032 --> 00:21:28,752
Speaker 3: buy a house. You know, I'm in my late twenties

394
00:21:28,831 --> 00:21:32,552
Speaker 3: now I'm starting my career. Yeah, I'm just like have

395
00:21:32,671 --> 00:21:35,431
Speaker 3: moved on with life. And I'm playing in this Rex

396
00:21:35,512 --> 00:21:38,671
Speaker 3: soccer league with other adults, and this was like, you know,

397
00:21:38,712 --> 00:21:41,391
Speaker 3: people are wearing masks because it's COVID and we're like

398
00:21:41,431 --> 00:21:44,431
Speaker 3: playing on small sided teams like trying to be safe

399
00:21:44,472 --> 00:21:47,671
Speaker 3: about you know, also getting fresh air and socializing and

400
00:21:47,712 --> 00:21:51,191
Speaker 3: things like that. And you know, I see him and

401
00:21:51,232 --> 00:21:54,952
Speaker 3: I just my heart drops, like what is he doing here?

402
00:21:55,032 --> 00:21:57,472
Speaker 3: What is he doing in this city? All these years later?

403
00:21:57,671 --> 00:21:59,752
Speaker 3: My first thing is, oh, my gosh, is he followed

404
00:21:59,752 --> 00:22:01,831
Speaker 3: me here? And I think that's crazy. It's been so

405
00:22:01,952 --> 00:22:03,991
Speaker 3: long since I've seen him. I haven't had a message

406
00:22:03,992 --> 00:22:06,431
Speaker 3: from him. I haven't heard from him. You know. It's

407
00:22:06,472 --> 00:22:08,512
Speaker 3: not like he's waving at me or trying to talk

408
00:22:08,552 --> 00:22:10,951
Speaker 3: to me either, So I just don't, you know, I

409
00:22:10,952 --> 00:22:12,032
Speaker 3: don't know what to think of it.

410
00:22:12,591 --> 00:22:15,552
Speaker 1: You're listening to two crime conversations with me, Claire Murphy.

411
00:22:15,792 --> 00:22:18,711
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Samantha Stites, who was kidnapped in twenty

412
00:22:18,752 --> 00:22:21,672
Speaker 1: twenty two by a man who was obsessed with her

413
00:22:21,911 --> 00:22:25,231
Speaker 1: and who stalked her for more than a decade. Up next,

414
00:22:25,431 --> 00:22:28,351
Speaker 1: Samantha describes the moment she saw her stalker again for

415
00:22:28,391 --> 00:22:29,952
Speaker 1: the first time in years.

416
00:22:29,911 --> 00:22:31,472
Speaker 2: After having thought it was all over.

417
00:22:35,391 --> 00:22:38,992
Speaker 1: It's so interesting because when you talk about that first

418
00:22:38,992 --> 00:22:40,991
Speaker 1: protection order that you have in place, you have so

419
00:22:41,192 --> 00:22:43,911
Speaker 1: much evidence that he's stalking you, so many interactions. You

420
00:22:43,952 --> 00:22:47,311
Speaker 1: have Facebook messages, You've got witnesses who've seen you tell

421
00:22:47,431 --> 00:22:50,552
Speaker 1: him no, You've got you know, people backing up your story.

422
00:22:50,831 --> 00:22:52,391
Speaker 2: And it's almost like, because.

423
00:22:52,151 --> 00:22:54,071
Speaker 1: You said, then he didn't interact with you, even though

424
00:22:54,071 --> 00:22:56,391
Speaker 1: he knows who you are and you know who he is.

425
00:22:56,792 --> 00:22:58,631
Speaker 1: He's come face to face with you on this soccer

426
00:22:58,671 --> 00:23:01,311
Speaker 1: team and doesn't say anything to you and doesn't really

427
00:23:01,351 --> 00:23:04,871
Speaker 1: even acknowledge that you know each other. It's almost like

428
00:23:04,911 --> 00:23:09,311
Speaker 1: he's learned from that first protection order not to give

429
00:23:09,792 --> 00:23:13,351
Speaker 1: evidence that he's stalking, because to a judge then that

430
00:23:13,512 --> 00:23:14,992
Speaker 1: just looks like, oh, he just happens to be in

431
00:23:15,032 --> 00:23:17,631
Speaker 1: the same place at the same time, doing the same

432
00:23:17,671 --> 00:23:19,511
Speaker 1: thing as you. If he doesn't even speak to you,

433
00:23:19,512 --> 00:23:23,111
Speaker 1: then obviously he's not stalking you. Do you feel like

434
00:23:23,232 --> 00:23:27,591
Speaker 1: he was clever enough to understand his behavior after that

435
00:23:27,631 --> 00:23:29,711
Speaker 1: protection order expired needed to be different.

436
00:23:30,431 --> 00:23:34,231
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. And I don't know what that

437
00:23:34,472 --> 00:23:37,591
Speaker 3: was exactly like for him in terms of like if

438
00:23:37,591 --> 00:23:42,191
Speaker 3: that was a strategy, you know, to Essentially, I had

439
00:23:42,232 --> 00:23:45,711
Speaker 3: a really hard time proving that he was stalking me

440
00:23:45,792 --> 00:23:48,351
Speaker 3: because he wasn't doing the normal things where he was

441
00:23:49,671 --> 00:23:53,591
Speaker 3: sending me messages or leading me gifts or trying to

442
00:23:53,631 --> 00:23:55,711
Speaker 3: talk to me. You know, the only thing was I

443
00:23:55,752 --> 00:23:59,111
Speaker 3: was seeing him everywhere and he wasn't even acknowledging me.

444
00:23:59,232 --> 00:24:02,952
Speaker 3: So it just felt I kind of felt crazy, like

445
00:24:03,232 --> 00:24:05,591
Speaker 3: this feels wrong to me, Like I'm seeing him way

446
00:24:05,591 --> 00:24:08,992
Speaker 3: more than I should. Good, there's something off about this,

447
00:24:09,151 --> 00:24:11,032
Speaker 3: And I just kept thinking, well, if I were him

448
00:24:11,032 --> 00:24:13,671
Speaker 3: in this situation, and I really didn't think anything of it,

449
00:24:13,752 --> 00:24:16,351
Speaker 3: what I at least acknowledged and waved the person, what

450
00:24:16,552 --> 00:24:20,031
Speaker 3: I you know, say hey in passing what I you know,

451
00:24:20,071 --> 00:24:21,951
Speaker 3: what would I do if I were him? You know?

452
00:24:21,992 --> 00:24:25,512
Speaker 3: I didn't know he was, Like I just I couldn't

453
00:24:25,552 --> 00:24:28,272
Speaker 3: get it to add up. But something felt very wrong

454
00:24:28,712 --> 00:24:30,591
Speaker 3: to me, and I felt like I essentially had to

455
00:24:30,631 --> 00:24:35,032
Speaker 3: stalk him to prove that he was stalking me. You know,

456
00:24:35,111 --> 00:24:36,871
Speaker 3: in my gut, I was like, I don't have enough

457
00:24:36,952 --> 00:24:41,151
Speaker 3: evidence for a new protection order because he isn't, you know,

458
00:24:41,391 --> 00:24:44,871
Speaker 3: unless you can tie in all these previous things he's done.

459
00:24:45,671 --> 00:24:47,992
Speaker 3: You know, I couldn't really start from scratch and say

460
00:24:47,992 --> 00:24:51,632
Speaker 3: this person stalking me, which you know essentially was kind

461
00:24:51,671 --> 00:24:54,032
Speaker 3: of what I had to do. I don't think they

462
00:24:54,111 --> 00:24:58,431
Speaker 3: even reviewed the first PPO. When I applied again the

463
00:24:58,512 --> 00:25:03,752
Speaker 3: summer before he kidnapped me in July twenty twenty two,

464
00:25:04,472 --> 00:25:07,432
Speaker 3: I had the help of an assistant prosecutor and I'm

465
00:25:07,431 --> 00:25:10,151
Speaker 3: a master's degree social worker, and I still got my

466
00:25:10,431 --> 00:25:14,311
Speaker 3: like PPO denied after all of this history, and it

467
00:25:14,472 --> 00:25:18,272
Speaker 3: just was so discouraging, and that to me, I just thought,

468
00:25:18,431 --> 00:25:22,152
Speaker 3: you know, what is the downside to having a PPO,

469
00:25:22,232 --> 00:25:24,632
Speaker 3: Like if he's truly not stalking me, then it shouldn't

470
00:25:24,631 --> 00:25:28,351
Speaker 3: make a difference, and if he is, then there's something,

471
00:25:29,111 --> 00:25:31,912
Speaker 3: you know, to charge him with. So it was it

472
00:25:31,952 --> 00:25:36,871
Speaker 3: was incredibly you know, discouraging going through that second PPO

473
00:25:37,032 --> 00:25:40,191
Speaker 3: process and just feeling like there's something wrong here and

474
00:25:40,232 --> 00:25:42,111
Speaker 3: I don't know what to do about it. And at

475
00:25:42,111 --> 00:25:44,671
Speaker 3: the same time, what can I I'm not going to

476
00:25:44,712 --> 00:25:47,071
Speaker 3: stop living my life. I'm not going to sell my

477
00:25:47,151 --> 00:25:49,071
Speaker 3: house and up and move, you know, I'm not going

478
00:25:49,151 --> 00:25:51,751
Speaker 3: to stop playing in this soccer league that I you know,

479
00:25:51,792 --> 00:25:55,311
Speaker 3: my friends were like, you know, stop playing there, change gyms,

480
00:25:55,431 --> 00:25:58,552
Speaker 3: like these places you're seeing him go do some stop

481
00:25:58,631 --> 00:26:01,671
Speaker 3: going there. And I'm like, I shouldn't have to change

482
00:26:01,712 --> 00:26:06,232
Speaker 3: my whole life because this person is doing something wrong.

483
00:26:06,911 --> 00:26:09,111
Speaker 3: And is that going to solve it? I don't think So.

484
00:26:10,151 --> 00:26:13,751
Speaker 1: That's something that I think is quite telling. When I

485
00:26:13,752 --> 00:26:17,831
Speaker 1: did watch the documentaries that you did refuse to let

486
00:26:17,952 --> 00:26:21,432
Speaker 1: him make your life smaller, because that seemed to be

487
00:26:21,911 --> 00:26:25,191
Speaker 1: almost what he was trying to do by being everywhere.

488
00:26:25,272 --> 00:26:27,391
Speaker 1: And we'll discuss how he knew where you were at

489
00:26:27,431 --> 00:26:30,071
Speaker 1: all times in a minute, but it seems like his

490
00:26:31,311 --> 00:26:33,552
Speaker 1: motive for doing that was to kind of get you

491
00:26:33,631 --> 00:26:35,551
Speaker 1: to make your life as small as possible so that

492
00:26:35,631 --> 00:26:38,911
Speaker 1: he was the everything part of your life, that he

493
00:26:38,952 --> 00:26:41,631
Speaker 1: would be the focus of your every single waking moment,

494
00:26:41,952 --> 00:26:44,232
Speaker 1: whereas you kind of refuse to do that, and we're

495
00:26:44,272 --> 00:26:46,911
Speaker 1: just like, I am, I'm not going to allow that

496
00:26:46,992 --> 00:26:49,512
Speaker 1: to happen. How do you find the fortitude in yourself

497
00:26:49,552 --> 00:26:52,552
Speaker 1: to make that decision? Because it would be so easy

498
00:26:52,591 --> 00:26:55,111
Speaker 1: to shrink away and try and hide from all of that.

499
00:26:55,752 --> 00:27:00,151
Speaker 3: And ultimately that's a lot of what Stocking's about, I mean, stalking,

500
00:27:00,311 --> 00:27:03,831
Speaker 3: domestic violence, whether so you're being stalked by someone you're

501
00:27:03,871 --> 00:27:06,232
Speaker 3: in a really or were in a relationship with, or

502
00:27:06,351 --> 00:27:08,232
Speaker 3: someone you don't know, a lot of it is about

503
00:27:08,272 --> 00:27:12,232
Speaker 3: control and that person having me upper hand. And I'm

504
00:27:12,272 --> 00:27:17,111
Speaker 3: kind of like thinking about my own coping skills and

505
00:27:17,151 --> 00:27:20,792
Speaker 3: styles and things that make me feel calm and myself

506
00:27:20,952 --> 00:27:22,751
Speaker 3: are like I like to be able to go to

507
00:27:22,752 --> 00:27:25,712
Speaker 3: the gym. I like to be able to, you know,

508
00:27:25,952 --> 00:27:30,192
Speaker 3: go running in my safe neighborhood. I like to play

509
00:27:30,351 --> 00:27:32,311
Speaker 3: on a soccer team, and those are all things that

510
00:27:32,391 --> 00:27:35,631
Speaker 3: help center me and connect me with other people. And

511
00:27:35,671 --> 00:27:39,032
Speaker 3: by like forcing me out of that, it's, you know,

512
00:27:39,272 --> 00:27:41,032
Speaker 3: kind of trying to shake me up. And I'm like,

513
00:27:41,071 --> 00:27:43,351
Speaker 3: I don't I don't know. I think I'm just such

514
00:27:43,391 --> 00:27:47,551
Speaker 3: a stubborn independent person that i was like angry with

515
00:27:47,591 --> 00:27:50,471
Speaker 3: my friends at suggesting this because I'm like, this is

516
00:27:50,552 --> 00:27:52,712
Speaker 3: driving me crazy and I don't want to stop doing

517
00:27:52,712 --> 00:27:55,032
Speaker 3: the things that I'm doing. Like it's not like I'm

518
00:27:56,272 --> 00:27:59,511
Speaker 3: walking around a dangerous city at night with headphones on,

519
00:28:00,071 --> 00:28:03,992
Speaker 3: like waiting for somebody to kidnap me. Like I'm I'm

520
00:28:04,032 --> 00:28:07,432
Speaker 3: burying up my routines, I'm like locking all my door,

521
00:28:07,512 --> 00:28:09,991
Speaker 3: like I'm doing all these logical, safe things. But at

522
00:28:09,992 --> 00:28:11,792
Speaker 3: the end of the day, I'm like, there's things that

523
00:28:11,871 --> 00:28:14,232
Speaker 3: are important to me and I shouldn't have to. It's

524
00:28:14,272 --> 00:28:19,032
Speaker 3: like him winning. I'm not going to stop playing soccer.

525
00:28:19,351 --> 00:28:22,351
Speaker 3: It's something I enjoy I have. I'm making friends here.

526
00:28:22,752 --> 00:28:25,151
Speaker 3: I you know, I'm safe about how I do it.

527
00:28:26,111 --> 00:28:29,071
Speaker 3: You don't park in the same place. I sometimes get

528
00:28:29,071 --> 00:28:31,512
Speaker 3: somebody to drive me. You know, all these things that

529
00:28:32,512 --> 00:28:36,152
Speaker 3: I was trying to be thoughtful of, and eventually, when

530
00:28:36,192 --> 00:28:39,072
Speaker 3: someone's persistent and off, it just isn't enough. And not

531
00:28:39,152 --> 00:28:43,432
Speaker 3: that a protection order would have prevented him from doing

532
00:28:43,472 --> 00:28:45,671
Speaker 3: any of this, I think that's clear that it probably

533
00:28:45,671 --> 00:28:48,592
Speaker 3: wouldn't have mattered. But kind of going back to your question,

534
00:28:48,712 --> 00:28:52,672
Speaker 3: I think he was very specific in particular about what

535
00:28:52,712 --> 00:28:55,671
Speaker 3: he did and didn't do kind of the second time

536
00:28:55,712 --> 00:29:00,312
Speaker 3: around in terms of speaking with me or you know,

537
00:29:00,352 --> 00:29:01,752
Speaker 3: interacting with me in any way.

538
00:29:04,552 --> 00:29:06,792
Speaker 2: When did he speak to you again?

539
00:29:07,632 --> 00:29:09,991
Speaker 1: Like all this time he's kind of around you, and

540
00:29:10,112 --> 00:29:14,152
Speaker 1: he's interacting with the environment around you, but he doesn't

541
00:29:14,192 --> 00:29:18,832
Speaker 1: interact with you personally, and your friends do eventually interact

542
00:29:18,872 --> 00:29:21,431
Speaker 1: with him, But does he ever speak to you again, Like,

543
00:29:21,431 --> 00:29:23,911
Speaker 1: does he ever give you any idea of what it

544
00:29:23,992 --> 00:29:24,872
Speaker 1: is he wants from you?

545
00:29:25,552 --> 00:29:29,192
Speaker 3: Honestly, no, I never I don't speak with him. He

546
00:29:29,272 --> 00:29:32,512
Speaker 3: never approaches me even asked to speak with me. There's

547
00:29:32,592 --> 00:29:36,632
Speaker 3: no We have one interaction on the soccer field where

548
00:29:37,272 --> 00:29:39,592
Speaker 3: I am like late to come into this game and

549
00:29:39,632 --> 00:29:44,312
Speaker 3: he's asked to like be a substitute on our team,

550
00:29:44,712 --> 00:29:47,072
Speaker 3: and a couple of people from my team weren't aware

551
00:29:47,112 --> 00:29:48,751
Speaker 3: of who he was. I told a bunch of them

552
00:29:48,792 --> 00:29:52,232
Speaker 3: who he was. So I come and it's like co

553
00:29:52,392 --> 00:29:54,911
Speaker 3: ed groups, so you need to have like a certain

554
00:29:54,952 --> 00:29:57,592
Speaker 3: number of women. We're always short on women playing. So

555
00:29:57,992 --> 00:29:59,872
Speaker 3: it was like I showed up. I had to be

556
00:29:59,952 --> 00:30:03,112
Speaker 3: on the field otherwise we're a shorter player. And so

557
00:30:03,192 --> 00:30:05,312
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'll play this is my team, but I'm

558
00:30:05,352 --> 00:30:08,552
Speaker 3: not playing with And that was the only real interaction

559
00:30:08,712 --> 00:30:11,471
Speaker 3: I had, was like not even speaking to him, but

560
00:30:11,552 --> 00:30:13,911
Speaker 3: telling my team, I'm I'm here to play on this

561
00:30:14,032 --> 00:30:17,072
Speaker 3: team with you, but I will not play with this man.

562
00:30:17,112 --> 00:30:19,592
Speaker 3: And this is why, Like I told them, you know why,

563
00:30:20,152 --> 00:30:22,072
Speaker 3: and he just like looked at me like he had

564
00:30:22,112 --> 00:30:24,112
Speaker 3: no idea what I was talking about. That was the

565
00:30:24,152 --> 00:30:27,712
Speaker 3: closest we came to interacting. And I was like, you're

566
00:30:27,752 --> 00:30:31,392
Speaker 3: like following me, like I'm not. I You're not get

567
00:30:31,392 --> 00:30:35,192
Speaker 3: out of here, like you're not playing with us. And no,

568
00:30:35,272 --> 00:30:39,191
Speaker 3: I had never spoken with him until he broke into

569
00:30:39,232 --> 00:30:43,672
Speaker 3: my house on October seventh, twenty twenty two, while I

570
00:30:43,872 --> 00:30:47,592
Speaker 3: was asleep, and broke into my bedroom and kidnapped me.

571
00:30:48,272 --> 00:30:52,232
Speaker 1: Forcibly, what did he say to you in that moment?

572
00:30:52,272 --> 00:30:56,832
Speaker 1: Because he did break in, and you wake when we

573
00:30:56,952 --> 00:31:00,271
Speaker 1: call it your spidy sense, when you know that something

574
00:31:00,312 --> 00:31:03,231
Speaker 1: isn't right or someone's there, and so you wake up

575
00:31:03,272 --> 00:31:07,032
Speaker 1: before he actually enters your room. Yeah, and then he

576
00:31:07,472 --> 00:31:10,712
Speaker 1: forces his way in so quickly that even though you'd

577
00:31:10,712 --> 00:31:15,272
Speaker 1: taken measures, you'd put a weapon underneathil mattress, ready to

578
00:31:15,312 --> 00:31:20,152
Speaker 1: defend yourself, but even that wasn't accessible enough in the

579
00:31:20,312 --> 00:31:22,671
Speaker 1: speed in which he came and grabbed you, was it.

580
00:31:23,472 --> 00:31:27,072
Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean he was prepared obviously, and I had

581
00:31:27,112 --> 00:31:31,832
Speaker 3: been sleeping, so like, I'm not fully there. I'm thinking,

582
00:31:31,872 --> 00:31:34,792
Speaker 3: if this person's prepared and if they don't have a weapon,

583
00:31:34,952 --> 00:31:38,112
Speaker 3: now I'm introducing one, Like this person is clearly here

584
00:31:38,112 --> 00:31:39,992
Speaker 3: for me, who's on the other side of my bedroom

585
00:31:40,032 --> 00:31:42,952
Speaker 3: door right now. If they were robbing me, they would

586
00:31:42,992 --> 00:31:45,191
Speaker 3: have been robbing me and they would have been that

587
00:31:45,232 --> 00:31:49,191
Speaker 3: they wouldn't be standing outside my door. So yeah, I

588
00:31:49,232 --> 00:31:52,552
Speaker 3: mean he told me basically, he like put his hands

589
00:31:52,552 --> 00:31:55,392
Speaker 3: around my neck and was like strangling me to get

590
00:31:55,431 --> 00:31:57,272
Speaker 3: me to stop screaming, and he's like, I just want

591
00:31:57,272 --> 00:31:59,912
Speaker 3: to talk, and I'm like, no sane person says they

592
00:31:59,992 --> 00:32:03,232
Speaker 3: just want to talk in this situation, like you've seen

593
00:32:03,272 --> 00:32:06,552
Speaker 3: me every week for however many weeks, because as you

594
00:32:06,592 --> 00:32:09,672
Speaker 3: show up to the same soccer group I'm a part

595
00:32:09,712 --> 00:32:12,152
Speaker 3: of and you've never approached me once to talk, and

596
00:32:12,192 --> 00:32:14,711
Speaker 3: now you're breaking into my house and I'm in my

597
00:32:14,872 --> 00:32:18,671
Speaker 3: underwear in bed, Like this is not what you do

598
00:32:18,752 --> 00:32:21,552
Speaker 3: when you want to talk to somebody, and so, you know,

599
00:32:21,592 --> 00:32:23,992
Speaker 3: I immediately thought, like he's going to kill me. There's

600
00:32:24,032 --> 00:32:26,952
Speaker 3: no way people get out of this, Like I don't

601
00:32:26,952 --> 00:32:30,592
Speaker 3: know what weapons he has or you know, and he

602
00:32:30,632 --> 00:32:33,431
Speaker 3: binds me, he puts a gager on my mouth and

603
00:32:33,552 --> 00:32:36,272
Speaker 3: tape all around my head and carries me out I'm

604
00:32:36,392 --> 00:32:38,632
Speaker 3: shackled up my hands and feet. I'm like, he's going

605
00:32:38,712 --> 00:32:41,511
Speaker 3: to murder me. He's gonna rape and murder me, you know,

606
00:32:41,671 --> 00:32:44,832
Speaker 3: is what I was positive was going to happen. You know.

607
00:32:44,872 --> 00:32:46,392
Speaker 3: He took me out of my house and I thought,

608
00:32:46,632 --> 00:32:48,592
Speaker 3: this last time ever, I'm ever going to see this

609
00:32:48,752 --> 00:32:50,711
Speaker 3: last time. I'm not going to see daylight again. The

610
00:32:50,752 --> 00:32:53,592
Speaker 3: sun wasn't even up yet wherever he was taking me,

611
00:32:53,792 --> 00:32:57,432
Speaker 3: and he brought me to this, like it was really

612
00:32:57,431 --> 00:32:59,672
Speaker 3: close to my house too. He brought me to this

613
00:33:00,592 --> 00:33:03,472
Speaker 3: like storage unit he had rented out. He had rented

614
00:33:03,472 --> 00:33:06,632
Speaker 3: two side by side and taken the ball out and

615
00:33:06,712 --> 00:33:11,192
Speaker 3: built this impressive construction, I must say, but built this

616
00:33:11,392 --> 00:33:17,032
Speaker 3: like soundproof bunker within this storage unit that had multiple

617
00:33:17,112 --> 00:33:20,112
Speaker 3: doors and locks, and there were sandbags to the ceiling

618
00:33:20,872 --> 00:33:25,512
Speaker 3: with like a bed and like shackles on the wall basically,

619
00:33:25,792 --> 00:33:27,792
Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh, yeah, this is where I'm going

620
00:33:27,872 --> 00:33:30,312
Speaker 3: to die. But you just keep saying, you know, I

621
00:33:30,392 --> 00:33:32,152
Speaker 3: just want to talk, you know, I want to He

622
00:33:32,431 --> 00:33:34,872
Speaker 3: reveals like we're going to be here for two weeks together,

623
00:33:35,112 --> 00:33:38,592
Speaker 3: Like I took two weeks off work and we're going

624
00:33:38,671 --> 00:33:41,431
Speaker 3: to spend it in this soundproof bunker together, and I

625
00:33:41,512 --> 00:33:45,272
Speaker 3: just think you've lost it, Like, yes, he was all

626
00:33:45,472 --> 00:33:48,192
Speaker 3: the things I thought, and worse, and I found out

627
00:33:48,192 --> 00:33:50,711
Speaker 3: he had been tracking my car, you know, which we

628
00:33:50,752 --> 00:33:53,552
Speaker 3: had suspected because how was he showing up all these places?

629
00:33:53,592 --> 00:33:55,912
Speaker 3: We couldn't find a tracker anywhere on my vehicle.

630
00:33:56,192 --> 00:33:57,872
Speaker 2: But he wasn't just tracking your car, was he?

631
00:33:58,431 --> 00:34:01,751
Speaker 3: Nope? Nope, my car. I had like a kind of

632
00:34:01,792 --> 00:34:04,751
Speaker 3: beat up truck I used from time to time, my

633
00:34:04,872 --> 00:34:08,232
Speaker 3: roommate's car, my friend car, anyone I spent enough time with.

634
00:34:08,392 --> 00:34:10,552
Speaker 3: Really you wanted to know who I was with, what

635
00:34:10,632 --> 00:34:11,312
Speaker 3: I was doing.

636
00:34:11,911 --> 00:34:13,712
Speaker 2: Have you watched back the documentary yet?

637
00:34:14,032 --> 00:34:15,392
Speaker 3: I have just once?

638
00:34:15,911 --> 00:34:18,392
Speaker 2: What's it like to look at that setup?

639
00:34:18,511 --> 00:34:20,911
Speaker 1: Because like the police body cam takes you in there

640
00:34:20,951 --> 00:34:22,911
Speaker 1: and shows you around and you can see all the

641
00:34:22,951 --> 00:34:23,991
Speaker 1: work that he's put into that.

642
00:34:24,232 --> 00:34:25,272
Speaker 2: What's it like to see that?

643
00:34:25,792 --> 00:34:29,031
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's weird. I mean it looks to me,

644
00:34:29,112 --> 00:34:31,712
Speaker 3: it looks less intimidating than what it did when I

645
00:34:31,792 --> 00:34:36,152
Speaker 3: was there, because it was like really dark and you know,

646
00:34:36,511 --> 00:34:40,352
Speaker 3: arranged in a slightly different way. It was. It was

647
00:34:40,392 --> 00:34:46,071
Speaker 3: definitely strange, but also like, oh, this is like something

648
00:34:46,232 --> 00:34:50,111
Speaker 3: that someone would create in a horror movie, like you know,

649
00:34:50,152 --> 00:34:55,631
Speaker 3: seeing those rings on the wall, and yeah, it was

650
00:34:55,752 --> 00:34:57,631
Speaker 3: I mean, it was a lot. But at the same time,

651
00:34:57,672 --> 00:35:01,152
Speaker 3: I feel like I've I don't know, I've so thankful

652
00:35:01,272 --> 00:35:04,551
Speaker 3: to be alive and have made it through everything. I know.

653
00:35:04,592 --> 00:35:08,832
Speaker 3: There's so many folks that are stocked, or abducted or

654
00:35:08,951 --> 00:35:13,631
Speaker 3: raped or any combination of those and don't survive that

655
00:35:14,872 --> 00:35:17,832
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm very thankful to be able to

656
00:35:17,872 --> 00:35:21,631
Speaker 3: tell my story and I want to somehow honor the

657
00:35:21,672 --> 00:35:25,352
Speaker 3: people that didn't have that opportunity, you know, because of

658
00:35:25,431 --> 00:35:29,312
Speaker 3: no reason of their own, just how things went.

659
00:35:29,511 --> 00:35:29,712
Speaker 2: You know.

660
00:35:29,792 --> 00:35:32,031
Speaker 3: I don't feel like there's anything unique about me that

661
00:35:33,312 --> 00:35:37,511
Speaker 3: I survived and others didn't. But yeah, watching it back

662
00:35:37,672 --> 00:35:39,872
Speaker 3: is heavy in that way because I think, you know,

663
00:35:39,951 --> 00:35:43,111
Speaker 3: that's not a situation you think people are probably going

664
00:35:43,152 --> 00:35:43,672
Speaker 3: to survive.

665
00:35:44,551 --> 00:35:46,591
Speaker 1: We said that a few times that in your mind,

666
00:35:46,592 --> 00:35:48,152
Speaker 1: in that moment, you're like, this is it. This is

667
00:35:48,152 --> 00:35:49,631
Speaker 1: where I'm going to die. He's going to kill me.

668
00:35:49,672 --> 00:35:53,392
Speaker 1: Do you ever actually really accept that and understand that

669
00:35:53,511 --> 00:35:55,712
Speaker 1: because that is so far from our normal day to

670
00:35:55,792 --> 00:35:59,671
Speaker 1: day reality, Like, how do you in that moment come

671
00:35:59,712 --> 00:36:02,392
Speaker 1: to terms with the fact that this could be the

672
00:36:02,511 --> 00:36:05,712
Speaker 1: end of my life. At the same time, I'm imagining

673
00:36:05,712 --> 00:36:07,752
Speaker 1: in your brain, like how do I survive this? How

674
00:36:07,752 --> 00:36:10,392
Speaker 1: do I get away from him? How do I how

675
00:36:10,392 --> 00:36:12,792
Speaker 1: do I beat this man who is so much bigger

676
00:36:12,832 --> 00:36:14,111
Speaker 1: than me and so much stronger than me, and who

677
00:36:14,152 --> 00:36:16,272
Speaker 1: has literally got me shackled and tied to a wall

678
00:36:16,592 --> 00:36:19,552
Speaker 1: in a soundproof bunker. Like it feels like every single

679
00:36:19,551 --> 00:36:22,392
Speaker 1: thing that could potentially be against you it's against you

680
00:36:22,431 --> 00:36:26,152
Speaker 1: in that moment. How do you first of all reconcile

681
00:36:26,192 --> 00:36:27,671
Speaker 1: the fact that you're in a position that you might

682
00:36:27,712 --> 00:36:29,791
Speaker 1: not make it through, and then also find the fight

683
00:36:29,872 --> 00:36:30,591
Speaker 1: to get out of it.

684
00:36:31,232 --> 00:36:34,032
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, there definitely was that moment,

685
00:36:34,592 --> 00:36:37,471
Speaker 3: specifically as we were leaving my house and we were

686
00:36:38,072 --> 00:36:40,712
Speaker 3: in the car, you know, going to this bunker, and

687
00:36:40,752 --> 00:36:42,991
Speaker 3: once we got there and I saw what it was

688
00:36:43,031 --> 00:36:46,951
Speaker 3: and what was you know, what his plan was? You know,

689
00:36:47,031 --> 00:36:51,592
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, like I don't I don't know's

690
00:36:51,752 --> 00:36:55,471
Speaker 3: It was like a weird sort of peace in some

691
00:36:55,632 --> 00:37:00,031
Speaker 3: way of like perhaps this is it, and I hope

692
00:37:00,031 --> 00:37:03,032
Speaker 3: I'm satisfied with what I've done. But at the same time,

693
00:37:04,192 --> 00:37:06,111
Speaker 3: I'm not just going to give up because of what

694
00:37:06,152 --> 00:37:08,832
Speaker 3: I seeing like there's got to be some way, and

695
00:37:08,872 --> 00:37:12,832
Speaker 3: I'm going to try. You know, I value my life

696
00:37:12,911 --> 00:37:14,711
Speaker 3: enough that I'm going to try and get out of this,

697
00:37:15,152 --> 00:37:17,352
Speaker 3: you know. And obviously I was striking out. I can't

698
00:37:17,352 --> 00:37:20,751
Speaker 3: fight my way out, I can't screen my way out.

699
00:37:20,832 --> 00:37:24,352
Speaker 3: I can't you know, all these common things. I essentially

700
00:37:24,392 --> 00:37:26,511
Speaker 3: the only thing I had to do was kind of

701
00:37:26,551 --> 00:37:30,591
Speaker 3: outsmart him or convince him to let me go. It

702
00:37:30,632 --> 00:37:33,232
Speaker 3: was really the only kind of tool I had at

703
00:37:33,232 --> 00:37:34,031
Speaker 3: my disposal.

704
00:37:34,672 --> 00:37:36,752
Speaker 1: He also kind of took hope away from you too,

705
00:37:36,832 --> 00:37:39,392
Speaker 1: didn't he Because I think the thing that we would

706
00:37:39,431 --> 00:37:42,071
Speaker 1: all think if someone was to kidnap us is that

707
00:37:42,112 --> 00:37:43,991
Speaker 1: someone will be looking for us, Like someone will come

708
00:37:43,991 --> 00:37:47,471
Speaker 1: to find us and they will start telling police, and

709
00:37:47,551 --> 00:37:49,431
Speaker 1: like people will be mobilized to look for me.

710
00:37:49,511 --> 00:37:51,272
Speaker 2: But he had a plan for that already.

711
00:37:51,911 --> 00:37:55,951
Speaker 3: Yeah, he had planned obviously with time. He wasn't a

712
00:37:55,991 --> 00:37:59,032
Speaker 3: complete idiot. He was like, you know, people will start

713
00:37:59,072 --> 00:38:03,992
Speaker 3: probably looking for her if she's missing. He had already

714
00:38:04,072 --> 00:38:10,031
Speaker 3: loaded my inflation paddle board into my car when he

715
00:38:10,112 --> 00:38:13,431
Speaker 3: took me, so he was planning to drive leave my

716
00:38:13,592 --> 00:38:17,272
Speaker 3: car and an inflatable paddle board out on the Great

717
00:38:17,352 --> 00:38:21,431
Speaker 3: lakes and you know, which is like a massive, a

718
00:38:21,471 --> 00:38:25,352
Speaker 3: massive lake in October. It's cold at this point where

719
00:38:25,392 --> 00:38:27,551
Speaker 3: we live, and it looked like you can't see the

720
00:38:27,592 --> 00:38:29,712
Speaker 3: other side of the lake. It's strigantic. It looks like

721
00:38:29,752 --> 00:38:33,111
Speaker 3: the ocean. So, you know, he had planned to kind

722
00:38:33,112 --> 00:38:35,991
Speaker 3: of fake my death and just sort of keep the

723
00:38:36,031 --> 00:38:39,431
Speaker 3: cops busy. I don't I don't know, and so, and

724
00:38:39,471 --> 00:38:42,232
Speaker 3: then he was going to have to walk twenty thirty

725
00:38:42,272 --> 00:38:44,551
Speaker 3: miles back to where we were. So I'm like, okay,

726
00:38:44,632 --> 00:38:46,991
Speaker 3: I was going to be alone, potentially shackled to a

727
00:38:47,072 --> 00:38:50,072
Speaker 3: ball a whole day while he played my death out

728
00:38:50,112 --> 00:38:52,951
Speaker 3: like I don't know. That was kind of wild too,

729
00:38:52,991 --> 00:38:55,631
Speaker 3: and he had like planned for that to happen, because

730
00:38:55,672 --> 00:38:57,591
Speaker 3: I saw the paddle board in the car and I

731
00:38:57,632 --> 00:39:01,032
Speaker 3: was like, oh my gosh. He wasn't just blowing steam.

732
00:39:01,152 --> 00:39:05,392
Speaker 3: This was his real plan. And I did feel like

733
00:39:06,632 --> 00:39:10,232
Speaker 3: time was also not on my side, because once people

734
00:39:10,352 --> 00:39:14,231
Speaker 3: start thinking I'm missing and the police get involved, He's

735
00:39:14,272 --> 00:39:16,752
Speaker 3: going to get more panic because the first, you know,

736
00:39:16,872 --> 00:39:19,151
Speaker 3: anybody close to me is going to say, look at him,

737
00:39:19,872 --> 00:39:22,192
Speaker 3: find this guy, and you're gonna find her. And so

738
00:39:22,272 --> 00:39:24,711
Speaker 3: I kind of thought, well, geez, if he gets agitated,

739
00:39:24,991 --> 00:39:28,312
Speaker 3: he's relatively calm. Now, you know he spooked, he knows, like,

740
00:39:28,872 --> 00:39:31,352
Speaker 3: oh man, I just like did something really bad, Like

741
00:39:31,431 --> 00:39:34,911
Speaker 3: he admitted, like I can't believe I did that, And

742
00:39:34,911 --> 00:39:40,031
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, me too, like so what are we

743
00:39:40,072 --> 00:39:43,872
Speaker 3: here for? But I mean all humor aside, though, yeah

744
00:39:43,991 --> 00:39:47,671
Speaker 3: it was. I did feel like time was like kind

745
00:39:47,672 --> 00:39:50,632
Speaker 3: of not on my side too, because as time went farther,

746
00:39:50,951 --> 00:39:52,352
Speaker 3: like I was like, I have to get out of

747
00:39:52,392 --> 00:39:55,591
Speaker 3: this by today because by tomorrow people are going to

748
00:39:55,672 --> 00:39:57,951
Speaker 3: know there's something wrong. Like I'm not just going to

749
00:39:58,352 --> 00:40:01,111
Speaker 3: disappear and tell nobody where I am and not have

750
00:40:01,312 --> 00:40:04,551
Speaker 3: my location on my phone or anything and not show

751
00:40:04,632 --> 00:40:07,112
Speaker 3: up to work, Like all these things just didn't you know,

752
00:40:07,152 --> 00:40:10,031
Speaker 3: wouldn't make sense. So I was kind of like, once

753
00:40:10,072 --> 00:40:12,911
Speaker 3: he gets agitated, who knows, Like if he didn't want

754
00:40:12,911 --> 00:40:15,832
Speaker 3: to kill me now, he probably would want to then

755
00:40:16,112 --> 00:40:19,152
Speaker 3: if he's you know, back against it all.

756
00:40:19,192 --> 00:40:23,071
Speaker 1: Next, Samantha talks about the impossible situation she faced in

757
00:40:23,192 --> 00:40:30,832
Speaker 1: order to get her kidnapper to set her free. So

758
00:40:31,511 --> 00:40:34,712
Speaker 1: this is the first time you've had a conversation with

759
00:40:34,832 --> 00:40:38,951
Speaker 1: him since that protective order has expired, and you know,

760
00:40:39,031 --> 00:40:42,072
Speaker 1: that he's following you again. So what does he finally

761
00:40:42,112 --> 00:40:44,232
Speaker 1: tell you? What does he want from you? Why has

762
00:40:44,272 --> 00:40:46,152
Speaker 1: he kidnapped you in the very early hours of the

763
00:40:46,232 --> 00:40:48,911
Speaker 1: morning and chucked you in a box? Essentially, like, what

764
00:40:48,951 --> 00:40:49,471
Speaker 1: does he want?

765
00:40:50,152 --> 00:40:54,752
Speaker 3: Uh, he's in love with me. He wants to get married.

766
00:40:55,752 --> 00:40:58,832
Speaker 3: He acknowledges that I would have no interest in that

767
00:40:58,911 --> 00:41:03,192
Speaker 3: and that that wouldn't be practical, you know, which is good,

768
00:41:03,312 --> 00:41:07,071
Speaker 3: I think, But he essentially is just like, you know,

769
00:41:07,272 --> 00:41:09,511
Speaker 3: I've never been able to get over you. I never

770
00:41:09,551 --> 00:41:12,832
Speaker 3: felt like you gave me closure. You know you wouldn't.

771
00:41:12,911 --> 00:41:14,872
Speaker 3: I was like, it's not like we ever dated what

772
00:41:15,072 --> 00:41:17,271
Speaker 3: you know, I'm thinking, what kind of closure was there?

773
00:41:17,352 --> 00:41:20,272
Speaker 3: You just stalked me. Like the only closure I need

774
00:41:20,352 --> 00:41:22,951
Speaker 3: is for you to leave me alone. And so I

775
00:41:23,072 --> 00:41:24,911
Speaker 3: kind of, you know, appease him. I'm like, you know,

776
00:41:24,951 --> 00:41:26,911
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, that was really unfair of me to do

777
00:41:27,031 --> 00:41:30,712
Speaker 3: all those years ago, and you know, kind of catered

778
00:41:30,752 --> 00:41:32,752
Speaker 3: to him and listen to him like I had trained

779
00:41:32,752 --> 00:41:34,591
Speaker 3: as a therapist. It was like I get how to

780
00:41:34,712 --> 00:41:37,792
Speaker 3: like listen to people and try to get to like

781
00:41:37,911 --> 00:41:41,151
Speaker 3: what the heart of their issue and concern is. And

782
00:41:41,192 --> 00:41:43,232
Speaker 3: that was kind of what I did, and I discovered,

783
00:41:43,312 --> 00:41:44,991
Speaker 3: you know, he was still in love with me, and

784
00:41:45,031 --> 00:41:47,752
Speaker 3: he feared I thought he was nuts. I was like,

785
00:41:47,911 --> 00:41:48,631
Speaker 3: clearly you are.

786
00:41:48,792 --> 00:41:51,551
Speaker 1: But also wait that he's aware of that, Like he's

787
00:41:51,592 --> 00:41:55,192
Speaker 1: aware of what he's doing people who think he's crazy,

788
00:41:55,672 --> 00:41:57,551
Speaker 1: Like he's aware of that if he's saying that to you.

789
00:41:57,911 --> 00:42:00,631
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I almost had to convince him otherwise, like

790
00:42:00,712 --> 00:42:02,792
Speaker 3: we can kind of forget about all of this. We've

791
00:42:02,832 --> 00:42:06,272
Speaker 3: had this misunderstanding, Like you know, I'm trying to think

792
00:42:06,392 --> 00:42:08,031
Speaker 3: what can I do to get out of this of

793
00:42:08,112 --> 00:42:10,672
Speaker 3: like how will he let me go? Well, he's afraid

794
00:42:10,672 --> 00:42:13,632
Speaker 3: of going to prison, you know, as soon as anybody

795
00:42:13,752 --> 00:42:16,071
Speaker 3: thinks I'm missing and go to find him, Like we

796
00:42:16,152 --> 00:42:19,392
Speaker 3: need to pretend this never happened, maybe so that he

797
00:42:19,431 --> 00:42:22,272
Speaker 3: doesn't go to prison, and that maybe we could just

798
00:42:22,312 --> 00:42:24,832
Speaker 3: be friends. Like I don't think he would believe that

799
00:42:24,951 --> 00:42:28,072
Speaker 3: I actually have a romantic interest in him. That would

800
00:42:28,072 --> 00:42:31,352
Speaker 3: be too unbelievable, But could we have some sort of

801
00:42:31,392 --> 00:42:35,352
Speaker 3: friendship something. So I spend this whole day, you know,

802
00:42:35,471 --> 00:42:39,431
Speaker 3: trying to answer his questions I learn, you know, I

803
00:42:39,511 --> 00:42:41,631
Speaker 3: ask him things, try to find out more about his

804
00:42:41,712 --> 00:42:46,232
Speaker 3: motivations and his life and he's just this like sad,

805
00:42:46,352 --> 00:42:51,031
Speaker 3: lonely person and just has not been able to get

806
00:42:51,072 --> 00:42:55,232
Speaker 3: over me in all these years, and it blows me away,

807
00:42:55,312 --> 00:42:57,672
Speaker 3: Like it was sad to me, but it was also

808
00:42:57,752 --> 00:43:02,312
Speaker 3: terrifying that somebody, you know, could feel that way about

809
00:43:02,312 --> 00:43:06,312
Speaker 3: someone for so long and knowingly commit this many crimes

810
00:43:06,712 --> 00:43:08,511
Speaker 3: to be able to see and talk to them. Like,

811
00:43:09,312 --> 00:43:11,551
Speaker 3: it's just wild to me. And clearly I thought the

812
00:43:11,592 --> 00:43:14,231
Speaker 3: whole time, you know, he's going to try to rape

813
00:43:14,272 --> 00:43:19,192
Speaker 3: me one way or another, whatever that looked like. And

814
00:43:19,431 --> 00:43:21,752
Speaker 3: essentially that's kind of what it comes down to. Like

815
00:43:21,832 --> 00:43:25,631
Speaker 3: we're waiting into the night at this point, and I

816
00:43:25,672 --> 00:43:27,591
Speaker 3: you know, try to convince him like if you let

817
00:43:27,672 --> 00:43:30,232
Speaker 3: me go tonight, nobody needs to know that this happened,

818
00:43:30,872 --> 00:43:33,232
Speaker 3: and he's like, well, how am I supposed to trust you?

819
00:43:33,312 --> 00:43:35,031
Speaker 3: My life's in your hands. I'm like, well, my life

820
00:43:35,031 --> 00:43:38,312
Speaker 3: has been in your hands all day. And he essentially

821
00:43:38,392 --> 00:43:40,552
Speaker 3: is like, I'm not going to let you go unless

822
00:43:40,592 --> 00:43:45,992
Speaker 3: we have sex, and I'm just like, there's no world

823
00:43:46,031 --> 00:43:48,911
Speaker 3: that makes me want to do that, and I'm very

824
00:43:48,951 --> 00:43:52,711
Speaker 3: clear like I have no interest in that, and this

825
00:43:52,752 --> 00:43:54,872
Speaker 3: is going to be really bad for us that like

826
00:43:54,911 --> 00:43:57,472
Speaker 3: if this if We're at this stalemate and we don't

827
00:43:57,592 --> 00:43:59,672
Speaker 3: you know, we run out of time. People know I'm missing.

828
00:43:59,672 --> 00:44:03,392
Speaker 3: It's going to escalate the whole situation. So I end

829
00:44:03,471 --> 00:44:06,631
Speaker 3: up like making it very clear to him I don't

830
00:44:06,632 --> 00:44:09,231
Speaker 3: want to sleep with you. I'm not, but like, if

831
00:44:09,232 --> 00:44:12,792
Speaker 3: this is what the terms of this agreement are, like,

832
00:44:12,832 --> 00:44:14,392
Speaker 3: I want you to look me in the eyes and

833
00:44:14,431 --> 00:44:17,751
Speaker 3: shake my hand that if we have sex you'll let

834
00:44:17,752 --> 00:44:20,551
Speaker 3: me go. And knowing like to me, I'm like, there's

835
00:44:20,551 --> 00:44:23,471
Speaker 3: no way anybody can actually give consent in this situation.

836
00:44:24,152 --> 00:44:26,231
Speaker 3: It doesn't really dawn on me that he doesn't quite

837
00:44:26,312 --> 00:44:29,911
Speaker 3: understand that, you know, until later on in the legal process.

838
00:44:30,192 --> 00:44:33,432
Speaker 3: He thinks, well, she agreed, you know, well I'm locked

839
00:44:33,431 --> 00:44:36,511
Speaker 3: in a box and you might kill me otherwise, so

840
00:44:37,991 --> 00:44:40,832
Speaker 3: or you could just tie me to this wall and

841
00:44:40,991 --> 00:44:44,431
Speaker 3: rape me anyway, you know, what's the safest thing for

842
00:44:44,511 --> 00:44:49,152
Speaker 3: me in this situation. So I made that really awful decision.

843
00:44:50,112 --> 00:44:53,431
Speaker 3: And then he eventually followed through with his end of

844
00:44:53,471 --> 00:44:58,631
Speaker 3: the promise and let me go, which was wild, you know.

845
00:44:58,911 --> 00:45:02,031
Speaker 3: So it's like, oh my gosh, I'm I did this,

846
00:45:02,232 --> 00:45:04,151
Speaker 3: Like I thought. I thought all day I was going

847
00:45:04,232 --> 00:45:07,471
Speaker 3: to die, and now I'm just you just let me

848
00:45:07,551 --> 00:45:12,152
Speaker 3: go into my car and what like what just happened?

849
00:45:13,592 --> 00:45:15,911
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean I had spent the whole day

850
00:45:16,031 --> 00:45:20,111
Speaker 3: like trying to gather as much information about him and

851
00:45:20,152 --> 00:45:22,511
Speaker 3: the setting as I could because I knew. I was like,

852
00:45:22,551 --> 00:45:24,512
Speaker 3: if I can get out of this and go to police,

853
00:45:24,551 --> 00:45:26,672
Speaker 3: he's done so many crimes that he'll be put away.

854
00:45:27,272 --> 00:45:30,352
Speaker 1: What I thought was incredible to after everything you've just

855
00:45:30,392 --> 00:45:34,152
Speaker 1: gone through and having to make that god awful decision

856
00:45:34,352 --> 00:45:38,312
Speaker 1: to save your own life, you have the presence of

857
00:45:38,392 --> 00:45:40,832
Speaker 1: mind to know that you can't jump in your car

858
00:45:40,951 --> 00:45:43,511
Speaker 1: and drive to a police station because you know that

859
00:45:43,511 --> 00:45:46,312
Speaker 1: that man is tracking your car now. So you're like,

860
00:45:47,031 --> 00:45:50,911
Speaker 1: how do I strategize to get myself to safety in

861
00:45:50,951 --> 00:45:52,951
Speaker 1: a way that he won't be able to follow me?

862
00:45:53,031 --> 00:45:56,792
Speaker 1: So you really think this out, and you find someone

863
00:45:56,832 --> 00:46:00,352
Speaker 1: that you think a neighbor whose car probably isn't being tracked,

864
00:46:01,152 --> 00:46:03,031
Speaker 1: and get their help in order to get you to

865
00:46:03,072 --> 00:46:04,631
Speaker 1: the hospital, because you know you need to go to

866
00:46:04,672 --> 00:46:09,431
Speaker 1: hospital first before for law enforcement gets involved. Even so, like,

867
00:46:10,232 --> 00:46:12,392
Speaker 1: is your mind just spinning at a thousand miles an

868
00:46:12,392 --> 00:46:14,392
Speaker 1: hour trying to come up with plans at this stage?

869
00:46:14,471 --> 00:46:16,591
Speaker 1: Or are you now at a point where you've been

870
00:46:16,592 --> 00:46:20,392
Speaker 1: stuck for thirteen years? Is that how your brain works now?

871
00:46:20,551 --> 00:46:23,031
Speaker 1: Is that how your brain subconsciously goes. I understand what

872
00:46:23,072 --> 00:46:25,031
Speaker 1: it means to avoid this man now, and I now

873
00:46:25,031 --> 00:46:26,552
Speaker 1: have taken it next level seriously.

874
00:46:27,112 --> 00:46:29,752
Speaker 3: It had That's an interesting question. I feel like it

875
00:46:29,911 --> 00:46:33,591
Speaker 3: had in those last couple of years. I felt like

876
00:46:33,672 --> 00:46:37,071
Speaker 3: had been sort of a training ground for that whole day,

877
00:46:37,112 --> 00:46:39,672
Speaker 3: because I did feel like I always had to be

878
00:46:40,352 --> 00:46:43,591
Speaker 3: on edge. You know, where am I going? Is this

879
00:46:43,752 --> 00:46:47,272
Speaker 3: something that's safe? You know, if something were to happen,

880
00:46:47,352 --> 00:46:49,992
Speaker 3: would there be witnesses? Like I was always thinking about

881
00:46:50,031 --> 00:46:53,272
Speaker 3: those kinds of things, like I was somebody who liked

882
00:46:53,272 --> 00:46:56,352
Speaker 3: to go hiking with my dog. You know, I was

883
00:46:56,911 --> 00:47:00,112
Speaker 3: on edge and very cautious about what I was doing,

884
00:47:00,152 --> 00:47:03,112
Speaker 3: where I was going, you know, those kinds of things,

885
00:47:03,192 --> 00:47:06,471
Speaker 3: always like what kind of car is following me? Have

886
00:47:06,511 --> 00:47:09,591
Speaker 3: I seen this person before? Sort of thing? So I

887
00:47:09,632 --> 00:47:12,712
Speaker 3: feel like I don't know. Also, our minds are a

888
00:47:12,712 --> 00:47:16,072
Speaker 3: brilliant thing, like when that's all you have to survive,

889
00:47:16,592 --> 00:47:18,991
Speaker 3: like I don't know. You hear about mothers being able

890
00:47:19,031 --> 00:47:22,832
Speaker 3: to lift vehicles off their children like this, You know,

891
00:47:23,031 --> 00:47:26,712
Speaker 3: survival instinct, and I feel like because my mind was

892
00:47:26,712 --> 00:47:28,151
Speaker 3: the only thing that was going to get me out

893
00:47:28,152 --> 00:47:31,352
Speaker 3: of that, I just could do everything. In that day.

894
00:47:31,752 --> 00:47:34,951
Speaker 3: I was really on point. I made like one mistake

895
00:47:35,072 --> 00:47:38,232
Speaker 3: probably through that one or maybe two very small mistakes

896
00:47:38,272 --> 00:47:40,232
Speaker 3: through that whole day where I was like, I have

897
00:47:40,352 --> 00:47:42,471
Speaker 3: done everything I can to get myself out of this

898
00:47:42,551 --> 00:47:46,352
Speaker 3: situation and to stay safe, even from the moment he

899
00:47:46,511 --> 00:47:49,111
Speaker 3: let me go and like going home because he was

900
00:47:49,152 --> 00:47:51,671
Speaker 3: tracking my car. You know, if he saw that I

901
00:47:51,712 --> 00:47:53,832
Speaker 3: wasn't going home like I said I was going to,

902
00:47:54,312 --> 00:47:58,672
Speaker 3: would he have tailgated me or ended up like running

903
00:47:58,672 --> 00:48:00,672
Speaker 3: me off the road or something, or would he have

904
00:48:00,752 --> 00:48:03,312
Speaker 3: shown up at the hospital or police station with me

905
00:48:03,471 --> 00:48:06,911
Speaker 3: and had some other story of his own, like you know,

906
00:48:06,951 --> 00:48:10,551
Speaker 3: how can I do this in the safest way possible

907
00:48:10,832 --> 00:48:13,991
Speaker 3: and you know get him in trouble. So yeah, I

908
00:48:14,031 --> 00:48:17,352
Speaker 3: knew from being a social worker, I knew I needed

909
00:48:17,511 --> 00:48:20,911
Speaker 3: a sane exam. I knew that DNA evidence was important.

910
00:48:21,991 --> 00:48:23,832
Speaker 3: I needed to get to the hospital for that. I

911
00:48:23,872 --> 00:48:25,952
Speaker 3: was like, also, this is a wild thing that's happened.

912
00:48:25,991 --> 00:48:28,312
Speaker 3: I'm not just going to go call the cops and

913
00:48:28,352 --> 00:48:30,392
Speaker 3: be like this is what happened. Because they would have

914
00:48:30,431 --> 00:48:34,591
Speaker 3: been like, yeah, okay, we'll send somebody. You know, I

915
00:48:34,672 --> 00:48:37,431
Speaker 3: just didn't if I heard that story, I would have

916
00:48:37,431 --> 00:48:39,671
Speaker 3: been skeptical too. If I heard something like that over

917
00:48:39,712 --> 00:48:41,271
Speaker 3: the phone. I'm like, if I'm in a safe place

918
00:48:41,312 --> 00:48:43,712
Speaker 3: in the hospital, you know, I think it'll be a

919
00:48:43,712 --> 00:48:46,952
Speaker 3: different setting. There's going to be potentially DNA evidence now.

920
00:48:47,112 --> 00:48:51,552
Speaker 1: And what was it like seeing yourself in hospital after

921
00:48:51,632 --> 00:48:52,312
Speaker 1: that day?

922
00:48:52,392 --> 00:48:53,672
Speaker 2: Because the police had.

923
00:48:53,632 --> 00:48:56,471
Speaker 1: His body cam on when he came to interview you, Like,

924
00:48:56,832 --> 00:48:59,192
Speaker 1: what's it like to see you in that hospital bed

925
00:48:59,352 --> 00:49:01,711
Speaker 1: in the aftermath of everything you'd been through that day?

926
00:49:01,712 --> 00:49:05,031
Speaker 1: I imagine that would be so difficult to see it was.

927
00:49:05,872 --> 00:49:08,551
Speaker 3: I don't know that it was necessarily difficult. It was

928
00:49:09,352 --> 00:49:14,472
Speaker 3: interesting seeing me, like seeing that back in that setting

929
00:49:14,511 --> 00:49:17,592
Speaker 3: and like how I felt like my jaw hurts so bad,

930
00:49:18,192 --> 00:49:20,392
Speaker 3: like I had ice PAGs on my jaw, and that

931
00:49:20,832 --> 00:49:23,031
Speaker 3: you know, some of that film, and I just remember,

932
00:49:23,312 --> 00:49:25,792
Speaker 3: you know, being on the other side watching the detective

933
00:49:25,872 --> 00:49:29,031
Speaker 3: and like trying to answer his questions and thinking like

934
00:49:29,112 --> 00:49:31,872
Speaker 3: is he believing me? And you know, seeing it from

935
00:49:31,872 --> 00:49:35,192
Speaker 3: his perspective of this person. I don't know that it

936
00:49:35,232 --> 00:49:40,551
Speaker 3: was necessarily difficult. I think you know, watching back, you know,

937
00:49:40,632 --> 00:49:42,872
Speaker 3: hearing about how I had to tell my friends that

938
00:49:42,911 --> 00:49:46,951
Speaker 3: this happened, and you know, the court process and all

939
00:49:46,991 --> 00:49:49,911
Speaker 3: of that was you know, difficult. I think watching my

940
00:49:49,991 --> 00:49:53,911
Speaker 3: friends and family go through this was like probably harder

941
00:49:53,951 --> 00:49:56,431
Speaker 3: than I feel like me going through it. You know,

942
00:49:56,471 --> 00:49:59,511
Speaker 3: I can't imagine this happening to a loved one and like,

943
00:50:00,832 --> 00:50:03,112
Speaker 3: you know, yeah, I'd want to reach across the table

944
00:50:03,152 --> 00:50:06,551
Speaker 3: and ring his neck probably if this happened to or

945
00:50:06,551 --> 00:50:07,552
Speaker 3: someone I cared about.

946
00:50:07,991 --> 00:50:09,951
Speaker 1: One of your friends is like, I wish I'd killed

947
00:50:10,031 --> 00:50:12,191
Speaker 1: him that day that he confronted him and he turned

948
00:50:12,232 --> 00:50:13,231
Speaker 1: up at a place where you were.

949
00:50:13,272 --> 00:50:14,911
Speaker 2: He's like, I wish I'd done more. I wish i'd

950
00:50:14,951 --> 00:50:15,352
Speaker 2: killed him.

951
00:50:15,672 --> 00:50:17,832
Speaker 3: I think probably there's a lot of people in my

952
00:50:17,911 --> 00:50:20,952
Speaker 3: life that feel that way or have said similar things,

953
00:50:21,072 --> 00:50:24,712
Speaker 3: just because you you know, how do you reconcile that?

954
00:50:24,911 --> 00:50:27,832
Speaker 3: And I'm I don't know. For some reason, it feels

955
00:50:27,872 --> 00:50:32,671
Speaker 3: different being myself and like not that I've necessarily forgiven him,

956
00:50:32,872 --> 00:50:35,591
Speaker 3: but I don't feel a lot of anger toward him. Surprisingly,

957
00:50:36,192 --> 00:50:39,511
Speaker 3: I'm very thankful that he's in prison. I wouldn't believe

958
00:50:39,551 --> 00:50:40,872
Speaker 3: a thing that comes out of his mouth.

959
00:50:41,152 --> 00:50:43,632
Speaker 1: Well, can you talk us through that court process, because

960
00:50:43,712 --> 00:50:45,872
Speaker 1: there was a couple of things that happened there. One

961
00:50:46,712 --> 00:50:50,551
Speaker 1: he came up with a story to explain why and

962
00:50:50,592 --> 00:50:53,591
Speaker 1: how you ended up in a soundproof box inside a

963
00:50:53,632 --> 00:50:56,792
Speaker 1: storage unit in the middle of the night. Talk us

964
00:50:56,792 --> 00:51:00,111
Speaker 1: through the story that he gave police and then kind

965
00:51:00,112 --> 00:51:02,751
Speaker 1: of tried to give in court about how you ended

966
00:51:02,832 --> 00:51:04,312
Speaker 1: up in that soundproof box.

967
00:51:04,592 --> 00:51:09,312
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I had asked to through a lot of

968
00:51:09,352 --> 00:51:13,872
Speaker 3: my therapy process. I had asked to come to the

969
00:51:13,872 --> 00:51:17,192
Speaker 3: courthouse and like meet the prosecutor and go through some

970
00:51:17,232 --> 00:51:20,272
Speaker 3: of the evidence, just for like exposure therapy, you know,

971
00:51:20,392 --> 00:51:22,911
Speaker 3: especially off the bat right after this happened, Like I

972
00:51:22,951 --> 00:51:26,032
Speaker 3: wasn't sleeping. I was having you know, difficulties with open

973
00:51:26,112 --> 00:51:30,551
Speaker 3: doors and small places and things like bananas and like

974
00:51:30,752 --> 00:51:37,192
Speaker 3: weird anyway, So when we went there, she had prefaced

975
00:51:37,352 --> 00:51:40,511
Speaker 3: you know, we have this video of his you know, interrogation,

976
00:51:40,752 --> 00:51:43,792
Speaker 3: but I want to warn you what his you know,

977
00:51:43,872 --> 00:51:46,592
Speaker 3: I want to preface this is kind of what he says,

978
00:51:46,672 --> 00:51:49,232
Speaker 3: and they you know, they asked me about it as well,

979
00:51:49,352 --> 00:51:52,712
Speaker 3: like he claims this, can you tell me more about

980
00:51:52,832 --> 00:51:56,192
Speaker 3: you know, have you had sexual relations with him? His

981
00:51:57,192 --> 00:52:00,712
Speaker 3: defense initially when he speaks with the detectives after being arrested,

982
00:52:00,951 --> 00:52:08,432
Speaker 3: was that we had a long standing role play sexual

983
00:52:09,312 --> 00:52:13,672
Speaker 3: thing going on where I had asked him to surprise

984
00:52:13,832 --> 00:52:17,352
Speaker 3: me this day and time at my house on a

985
00:52:17,511 --> 00:52:21,711
Speaker 3: Friday at seven am on a workday, and he took

986
00:52:21,752 --> 00:52:24,712
Speaker 3: things a little too far, was kind of his defense,

987
00:52:25,471 --> 00:52:28,071
Speaker 3: and that I was upset about it, you know, and

988
00:52:28,112 --> 00:52:30,751
Speaker 3: there was no you know, well, how would you plan

989
00:52:30,951 --> 00:52:34,431
Speaker 3: these sort of meetups? Like your number is blocked on

990
00:52:34,471 --> 00:52:38,192
Speaker 3: her phone, like there's no evidence of any communication between you.

991
00:52:39,312 --> 00:52:42,952
Speaker 3: How are you meeting in person and like talking this through?

992
00:52:43,592 --> 00:52:48,352
Speaker 3: Like well no, Like, well she's somewhere and I'll show up,

993
00:52:48,431 --> 00:52:51,792
Speaker 3: so like okay, so you're following her like no, like

994
00:52:52,352 --> 00:52:57,712
Speaker 3: just none of it makes sense and bless him. One

995
00:52:57,752 --> 00:53:01,551
Speaker 3: of the detectives said, well, when my wife says she

996
00:53:01,672 --> 00:53:04,792
Speaker 3: wants to be surprised, I'll come home with chocolates and flowers,

997
00:53:04,911 --> 00:53:09,752
Speaker 3: I don't come and you know, choke her and bind

998
00:53:09,832 --> 00:53:14,312
Speaker 3: her and take her somewhere, Like that's not a that's

999
00:53:14,352 --> 00:53:18,152
Speaker 3: not necessarily a surprise. And so it was just this

1000
00:53:18,312 --> 00:53:23,312
Speaker 3: kind of crazy idea that was kind of his initial defense.

1001
00:53:23,991 --> 00:53:27,312
Speaker 3: You know. Later he obviously they could tease out that

1002
00:53:27,352 --> 00:53:30,832
Speaker 3: any of that was not accurate. That was his story,

1003
00:53:31,192 --> 00:53:35,152
Speaker 3: and he had pled. Ultimately, he pled guilty by advice

1004
00:53:35,192 --> 00:53:39,991
Speaker 3: of his legal counsel. But his attorney had a really

1005
00:53:40,031 --> 00:53:42,232
Speaker 3: hard time working with him. I think they had tried

1006
00:53:42,471 --> 00:53:46,991
Speaker 3: many cognitive evaluations to see if he could be deemed incompetent,

1007
00:53:47,632 --> 00:53:51,872
Speaker 3: essentially get mental health treatment instead of standing trial or

1008
00:53:51,911 --> 00:53:55,592
Speaker 3: being sentenced. But he just kept passing the cognitive tests,

1009
00:53:55,632 --> 00:53:58,631
Speaker 3: so that drew everything out by like a year. So

1010
00:53:58,832 --> 00:54:02,752
Speaker 3: he's just sitting in jail, and I'm sitting at my house,

1011
00:54:03,112 --> 00:54:05,991
Speaker 3: you know, not sure. I end up having to sell

1012
00:54:06,031 --> 00:54:08,071
Speaker 3: my house and like, you can't live here anymore. My

1013
00:54:08,152 --> 00:54:12,832
Speaker 3: roommate moves out. She's like I don't want to live here,

1014
00:54:12,872 --> 00:54:15,592
Speaker 3: and like I get it, but now now I'm here alone,

1015
00:54:16,672 --> 00:54:19,872
Speaker 3: and it was just, yeah, it was a rough time.

1016
00:54:20,272 --> 00:54:25,752
Speaker 3: And then you know, it was February twenty twenty four

1017
00:54:25,911 --> 00:54:27,672
Speaker 3: before you was sentenced.

1018
00:54:28,112 --> 00:54:30,511
Speaker 1: What's wild, too, is that the judge ends up being

1019
00:54:30,551 --> 00:54:33,991
Speaker 1: the same one who denied your protection order.

1020
00:54:34,031 --> 00:54:35,671
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that's what I was just going to say.

1021
00:54:35,712 --> 00:54:38,591
Speaker 3: It was the same judge that when I found that out,

1022
00:54:38,592 --> 00:54:40,631
Speaker 3: I was like, oh no, Like this was the same

1023
00:54:40,752 --> 00:54:44,952
Speaker 3: judge that had denied my protective order, and to be clear,

1024
00:54:45,752 --> 00:54:48,392
Speaker 3: the court had said, you know, we would like you

1025
00:54:48,551 --> 00:54:51,071
Speaker 3: both to appear in person to figure out to get

1026
00:54:51,112 --> 00:54:53,792
Speaker 3: to the bottom of this, to determine if we can

1027
00:54:54,352 --> 00:54:55,712
Speaker 3: order that second PPO.

1028
00:54:56,112 --> 00:54:58,632
Speaker 1: This is before he kidnapped you, Yes, before.

1029
00:54:58,352 --> 00:55:01,392
Speaker 3: He kidnapped me. But I'm like, no, I'm not like

1030
00:55:01,872 --> 00:55:04,832
Speaker 3: poking this bear in case they don't give it. So

1031
00:55:04,911 --> 00:55:07,471
Speaker 3: that was kind of the court defense. But at the

1032
00:55:07,511 --> 00:55:09,751
Speaker 3: same time, I was like, the court never even looked

1033
00:55:09,792 --> 00:55:14,312
Speaker 3: into my previous PPO. They just kind of dismissed my request.

1034
00:55:14,392 --> 00:55:17,512
Speaker 3: And now this happened, and this awful thing has happened,

1035
00:55:17,511 --> 00:55:19,832
Speaker 3: and now we're right in front of the same judge again,

1036
00:55:19,872 --> 00:55:22,272
Speaker 3: and so I think, well, this is either maybe going

1037
00:55:22,352 --> 00:55:24,431
Speaker 3: to help me or hurt me. I don't really know,

1038
00:55:25,072 --> 00:55:26,832
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know this person. I don't know.

1039
00:55:27,911 --> 00:55:30,671
Speaker 3: I would hope that they're fair. They're a judge. You know,

1040
00:55:31,192 --> 00:55:32,591
Speaker 3: there's plenty of evidence there.

1041
00:55:32,872 --> 00:55:34,551
Speaker 1: That's the thing with a lot of women who do

1042
00:55:34,632 --> 00:55:37,631
Speaker 1: take things this, you know, down a legal avenue, is

1043
00:55:37,672 --> 00:55:40,471
Speaker 1: that there's a fear that even if they all believed

1044
00:55:40,792 --> 00:55:43,151
Speaker 1: that the legal system might not back them up at

1045
00:55:43,152 --> 00:55:45,591
Speaker 1: the end of the day, and that's the thing for you,

1046
00:55:45,712 --> 00:55:48,512
Speaker 1: is like if he doesn't plead guilty, if he doesn't

1047
00:55:48,511 --> 00:55:50,951
Speaker 1: go to jail, like where does that leave you?

1048
00:55:51,592 --> 00:55:54,991
Speaker 3: Yeah, then essentially I was warned very clearly, like if

1049
00:55:55,031 --> 00:55:57,872
Speaker 3: he doesn't take a plea deal or if we don't

1050
00:55:57,911 --> 00:56:01,232
Speaker 3: offer him that for whatever reason, and this goes to trial,

1051
00:56:02,112 --> 00:56:05,232
Speaker 3: everything about you will be scrutinized. And I'm like, why

1052
00:56:05,312 --> 00:56:08,671
Speaker 3: should I. I'm not the one who's on trial. I'm

1053
00:56:08,672 --> 00:56:12,031
Speaker 3: the victim in this situation, or theoretically the victim if

1054
00:56:12,072 --> 00:56:15,312
Speaker 3: you believe maybe this didn't happen, But it just was

1055
00:56:15,392 --> 00:56:17,231
Speaker 3: kind of wild to me, and I was like, there's

1056
00:56:17,232 --> 00:56:22,471
Speaker 3: so much evidence, but even then, like my sexual history

1057
00:56:22,592 --> 00:56:27,512
Speaker 3: probably would have been dragged through court or just anything

1058
00:56:27,551 --> 00:56:32,672
Speaker 3: about me, which seems so intrusive and unfair when it's

1059
00:56:33,112 --> 00:56:36,551
Speaker 3: something that happened to me and not you know. But

1060
00:56:36,632 --> 00:56:40,031
Speaker 3: he did end up taking a plea deal, and he

1061
00:56:40,072 --> 00:56:44,472
Speaker 3: wouldn't plead guilty to any of the sexual assault charges,

1062
00:56:45,872 --> 00:56:49,552
Speaker 3: which is something that really I struggled with for a while,

1063
00:56:49,672 --> 00:56:52,832
Speaker 3: just because I'm like, you rate me, I want you

1064
00:56:52,872 --> 00:56:54,112
Speaker 3: to be labeled as a rapist.

1065
00:56:54,431 --> 00:56:56,712
Speaker 1: Is that because he fully believed that what had happened

1066
00:56:56,712 --> 00:56:57,872
Speaker 1: between you was consensual.

1067
00:56:58,232 --> 00:57:01,712
Speaker 3: Yes. His legal counsel even said, this would be in

1068
00:57:01,792 --> 00:57:05,231
Speaker 3: your interest to plead to at least one of them,

1069
00:57:05,712 --> 00:57:09,192
Speaker 3: and demon's straight that you have remorse, et cetera. And

1070
00:57:09,272 --> 00:57:12,071
Speaker 3: he said, no, I you know, she consented. This was

1071
00:57:12,752 --> 00:57:17,312
Speaker 3: this was not an inappropriate act. Like However, many times

1072
00:57:17,392 --> 00:57:19,792
Speaker 3: it sounded like his attorney tried to explain it to

1073
00:57:19,872 --> 00:57:23,032
Speaker 3: him or other people tried to explain consent and what

1074
00:57:23,192 --> 00:57:25,712
Speaker 3: needs to be in place for that. Being locked in

1075
00:57:25,712 --> 00:57:30,032
Speaker 3: a room under duress, you know, that doesn't allow someone

1076
00:57:30,072 --> 00:57:37,512
Speaker 3: to give consent. So yeah, that that part I kind

1077
00:57:37,512 --> 00:57:39,392
Speaker 3: of struggled with because I was like, I want him

1078
00:57:39,392 --> 00:57:42,992
Speaker 3: to be fully responsible for all of the charges, but

1079
00:57:43,312 --> 00:57:46,832
Speaker 3: the judge can consider the full case when sentencing, even

1080
00:57:46,872 --> 00:57:51,952
Speaker 3: if formal you know, charges are dismissed, and I don't.

1081
00:57:52,032 --> 00:57:54,671
Speaker 3: It didn't really make the documentary, but the judge did

1082
00:57:54,712 --> 00:57:59,992
Speaker 3: have a pretty lengthy statement toward me about just was

1083
00:58:00,112 --> 00:58:04,112
Speaker 3: very complimentary, Like before I'm reading my impact statement and

1084
00:58:04,152 --> 00:58:08,191
Speaker 3: so I'm just like, you know, tear, He's like Christopher's

1085
00:58:08,592 --> 00:58:11,192
Speaker 3: there fifteen feet from me. I'm standing in front of

1086
00:58:11,232 --> 00:58:13,751
Speaker 3: this judge and he's you know, I think, well, that's

1087
00:58:13,752 --> 00:58:16,312
Speaker 3: a good sign. He's like, you know, you saved your

1088
00:58:16,352 --> 00:58:19,032
Speaker 3: own life and you know, all of this kind of thing,

1089
00:58:19,552 --> 00:58:23,952
Speaker 3: and he really ripped into Christopher, like, you know, he

1090
00:58:24,032 --> 00:58:28,632
Speaker 3: took that into consideration. You know, his life expectancy based

1091
00:58:28,672 --> 00:58:32,672
Speaker 3: on his age, et cetera. He essentially got sentenced forty

1092
00:58:32,712 --> 00:58:35,791
Speaker 3: to sixty years, which at about forty years of age,

1093
00:58:35,792 --> 00:58:37,272
Speaker 3: he's going to be at least eighty by the time

1094
00:58:37,272 --> 00:58:41,872
Speaker 3: he gets out, more or less a life sentence. So

1095
00:58:41,952 --> 00:58:44,992
Speaker 3: I was thankful for that, and essentially, you know, the

1096
00:58:45,072 --> 00:58:47,232
Speaker 3: judge was like, if you've been doing this to this

1097
00:58:47,312 --> 00:58:49,791
Speaker 3: person for this long, I don't see there being any

1098
00:58:50,032 --> 00:58:53,552
Speaker 3: chance of rehabilitation for you, which is sad because I

1099
00:58:53,552 --> 00:58:56,712
Speaker 3: don't think it was probably always like that. You know,

1100
00:58:56,872 --> 00:59:00,631
Speaker 3: had he had a therapist or some other intervention way

1101
00:59:00,672 --> 00:59:03,392
Speaker 3: back in college or something, you know, could things have

1102
00:59:03,472 --> 00:59:06,631
Speaker 3: been different. You know, his life is ruined because of it.

1103
00:59:07,472 --> 00:59:10,072
Speaker 3: Not to say I feel bad about that necessarily, but

1104
00:59:10,912 --> 00:59:13,631
Speaker 3: in terms of mental health and impact, you know, it's

1105
00:59:13,672 --> 00:59:18,472
Speaker 3: not just about as women, how do we protect ourselves. Well, yeah,

1106
00:59:18,512 --> 00:59:22,472
Speaker 3: maybe I don't become somebody who's a victim, but somebody

1107
00:59:22,472 --> 00:59:25,752
Speaker 3: else will because that person's going to go ahead and

1108
00:59:25,792 --> 00:59:30,072
Speaker 3: stalk someone else or sexually assault someone else and statistically

1109
00:59:30,112 --> 00:59:30,872
Speaker 3: that's the case.

1110
00:59:31,832 --> 00:59:34,952
Speaker 2: Well you found that out eventually, right, Yeah.

1111
00:59:34,512 --> 00:59:37,272
Speaker 3: They found even with Christopher, he had stalked another woman

1112
00:59:37,632 --> 00:59:40,392
Speaker 3: prior to me that nobody knew, Like it was on

1113
00:59:41,152 --> 00:59:44,232
Speaker 3: like file, it was legally there, but you know I

1114
00:59:44,272 --> 00:59:46,632
Speaker 3: didn't know about it. Yeah, he had been in trouble

1115
00:59:46,672 --> 00:59:49,392
Speaker 3: for this before. So for me, I'm like, how can

1116
00:59:49,432 --> 00:59:55,672
Speaker 3: we help make laws that can make things easier for

1117
00:59:55,792 --> 01:00:00,752
Speaker 3: victims to get help, to get protection orders, to get resources,

1118
01:00:01,872 --> 01:00:05,832
Speaker 3: et cetera. And how do we also prevent people from

1119
01:00:06,352 --> 01:00:08,712
Speaker 3: aging this behavior to begin with? You know, I know

1120
01:00:08,792 --> 01:00:11,032
Speaker 3: the pandemic wasn't kind to a lot of folks in

1121
01:00:11,112 --> 01:00:14,072
Speaker 3: terms of mental health, and maybe this was you know,

1122
01:00:14,192 --> 01:00:16,832
Speaker 3: something that went into all of it for him. But

1123
01:00:17,832 --> 01:00:21,712
Speaker 3: you know, people don't become like this overnight usually, you know,

1124
01:00:21,792 --> 01:00:25,631
Speaker 3: this is something that's a process. And you know the

1125
01:00:25,672 --> 01:00:29,392
Speaker 3: fact that people that were close to him, like friends,

1126
01:00:30,272 --> 01:00:32,992
Speaker 3: saw that what he had gotten in trouble for and

1127
01:00:33,072 --> 01:00:36,112
Speaker 3: immediately thought of me makes me think you knew something

1128
01:00:36,192 --> 01:00:38,392
Speaker 3: was wrong and you you know, what do you do

1129
01:00:38,552 --> 01:00:41,992
Speaker 3: about it? Though? You know, are there more resources where

1130
01:00:41,992 --> 01:00:46,112
Speaker 3: you can try to get somebody help more easily, or

1131
01:00:46,112 --> 01:00:48,912
Speaker 3: it's not a burden financial burden to the person, or

1132
01:00:48,992 --> 01:00:51,792
Speaker 3: doesn't you know, get them in legal trouble. But how

1133
01:00:51,792 --> 01:00:54,632
Speaker 3: do they get help or how do they even realize

1134
01:00:54,632 --> 01:00:57,072
Speaker 3: that there's something wrong? You know, I'm not confident that

1135
01:00:57,192 --> 01:01:00,992
Speaker 3: Chris knew that there was something off, you know, with.

1136
01:01:00,992 --> 01:01:03,752
Speaker 1: Him, even the conversations he had with his mom on

1137
01:01:03,792 --> 01:01:06,912
Speaker 1: the phone from prison, where she was saying to him, like,

1138
01:01:07,392 --> 01:01:09,631
Speaker 1: I could have helped maybe had I known and had

1139
01:01:09,672 --> 01:01:11,392
Speaker 1: I got your help when you were younger. And also

1140
01:01:11,432 --> 01:01:14,552
Speaker 1: he kind of said to her that it probably wouldn't

1141
01:01:14,592 --> 01:01:16,872
Speaker 1: have made a difference anyway, We'll never know.

1142
01:01:17,912 --> 01:01:21,512
Speaker 3: I mean, I like to think that early intervention would

1143
01:01:21,552 --> 01:01:24,352
Speaker 3: be helpful, that you can change the course of somebody's life.

1144
01:01:24,432 --> 01:01:27,631
Speaker 3: I mean, in every case, probably not, but for some

1145
01:01:27,712 --> 01:01:30,751
Speaker 3: people definitely. You know, if you had gotten more help

1146
01:01:30,832 --> 01:01:35,032
Speaker 3: or resources or other things to help socialize or to

1147
01:01:35,072 --> 01:01:38,711
Speaker 3: process your feelings more, you know, particularly for men, that's

1148
01:01:38,752 --> 01:01:41,392
Speaker 3: not Men don't like talking about their feelings. They don't

1149
01:01:41,432 --> 01:01:44,992
Speaker 3: know where to go. It comes out in anger. You know,

1150
01:01:45,072 --> 01:01:47,592
Speaker 3: you have all these other you know, issues that happen

1151
01:01:47,712 --> 01:01:50,792
Speaker 3: because of it. You know, how do we get people

1152
01:01:50,992 --> 01:01:53,432
Speaker 3: the kind of help they need to kind of help them,

1153
01:01:53,952 --> 01:01:57,352
Speaker 3: you know, get on their goals and find him an

1154
01:01:57,392 --> 01:02:00,392
Speaker 3: appropriate partner or love interest or something that's.

1155
01:02:00,512 --> 01:02:01,751
Speaker 2: A healthy relationship.

1156
01:02:01,912 --> 01:02:05,631
Speaker 3: Yeah, no is no, and it's not a okay, Well

1157
01:02:05,712 --> 01:02:09,152
Speaker 3: let me try, and later it's no. This person says no,

1158
01:02:09,352 --> 01:02:12,152
Speaker 3: and so I'm gonna look elsewhere.

1159
01:02:13,072 --> 01:02:17,272
Speaker 1: Just finally, Samantha, I want to know, like, it's been

1160
01:02:17,312 --> 01:02:19,272
Speaker 1: three years since that happened to you, and I mean,

1161
01:02:19,912 --> 01:02:21,272
Speaker 1: all up, if we want to look at it, it was

1162
01:02:21,272 --> 01:02:24,631
Speaker 1: thirteen years of stalking and then being abducted, So it

1163
01:02:24,712 --> 01:02:26,671
Speaker 1: was a long term thing for you to deal with.

1164
01:02:27,352 --> 01:02:31,072
Speaker 1: I imagine that change is a person, not just the

1165
01:02:31,112 --> 01:02:34,272
Speaker 1: incident itself in twenty twenty two, But that's thirteen years

1166
01:02:34,312 --> 01:02:35,512
Speaker 1: where you had to watch your back.

1167
01:02:36,552 --> 01:02:37,272
Speaker 2: How do you.

1168
01:02:37,992 --> 01:02:40,312
Speaker 1: Think that's changed you as a person now? And do

1169
01:02:40,392 --> 01:02:44,592
Speaker 1: you still have to take that experience into consideration as

1170
01:02:44,632 --> 01:02:46,352
Speaker 1: you step out into the world every day, Like is

1171
01:02:46,392 --> 01:02:48,792
Speaker 1: it is it getting further in your mind or is

1172
01:02:48,832 --> 01:02:51,752
Speaker 1: it still fresh for you? Like how do you recover?

1173
01:02:52,632 --> 01:02:56,432
Speaker 3: I think in some ways things are kind of getting

1174
01:02:56,512 --> 01:03:00,432
Speaker 3: better with time, Like, no matter what, if there was

1175
01:03:00,472 --> 01:03:02,631
Speaker 3: somebody in the house with me, that was first few

1176
01:03:02,672 --> 01:03:05,432
Speaker 3: months and then we're making a noise. I just would

1177
01:03:05,432 --> 01:03:08,832
Speaker 3: feel very tense, like, oh, there's somebody in the house,

1178
01:03:08,912 --> 01:03:11,112
Speaker 3: like this is my roommate or my friend or something.

1179
01:03:11,152 --> 01:03:15,192
Speaker 3: But like noises would set me off, or like a

1180
01:03:15,192 --> 01:03:18,392
Speaker 3: stranger coming to my door to sell something, or like

1181
01:03:18,472 --> 01:03:22,112
Speaker 3: a repair man or something would really freak me out.

1182
01:03:22,472 --> 01:03:24,712
Speaker 3: That like first year or two and now I'm like,

1183
01:03:25,352 --> 01:03:28,552
Speaker 3: you know, it's a thing that happens. People's solicit for

1184
01:03:28,712 --> 01:03:32,191
Speaker 3: different reasons from time to time. Or you know, there's

1185
01:03:32,232 --> 01:03:34,952
Speaker 3: a mailman that needs a signature for something. You know,

1186
01:03:34,992 --> 01:03:37,112
Speaker 3: those more common things. I don't so much get the

1187
01:03:37,152 --> 01:03:40,912
Speaker 3: heart racing like I used to. I'm still definitely somebody

1188
01:03:40,952 --> 01:03:43,112
Speaker 3: looks over my shoulders a lot. You know, I'm never

1189
01:03:43,272 --> 01:03:47,392
Speaker 3: I never have headphones in. I'm not wandering around by

1190
01:03:47,432 --> 01:03:50,352
Speaker 3: myself at night, you know, the common common things. I

1191
01:03:50,392 --> 01:03:53,552
Speaker 3: haven't lived in a safe area, but yeah, and some

1192
01:03:53,592 --> 01:03:56,672
Speaker 3: of the like startle responses. I feel like have gotten

1193
01:03:56,712 --> 01:03:59,832
Speaker 3: better with time, but there's things that always like I'm

1194
01:03:59,912 --> 01:04:03,272
Speaker 3: very leery about men after all of this, and I

1195
01:04:03,312 --> 01:04:06,632
Speaker 3: don't know how much that's going to change people. I

1196
01:04:06,672 --> 01:04:11,552
Speaker 3: have established relationships with great but like meeting new people

1197
01:04:11,872 --> 01:04:14,792
Speaker 3: in terms of friends or colleagues, Like I just am

1198
01:04:14,912 --> 01:04:17,671
Speaker 3: very suspicious to start from, which I know isn't always fair.

1199
01:04:18,872 --> 01:04:22,312
Speaker 3: But those things, like all of that has shaped, you know,

1200
01:04:22,392 --> 01:04:26,231
Speaker 3: how I interact with people, or if like somebody cat

1201
01:04:26,272 --> 01:04:29,472
Speaker 3: calls me on the street or a man tries to

1202
01:04:29,512 --> 01:04:31,952
Speaker 3: hit on me at a bar, just the way I

1203
01:04:32,032 --> 01:04:36,432
Speaker 3: respond to those things is like I don't take any

1204
01:04:36,472 --> 01:04:39,912
Speaker 3: of that. Like my reaction is a lot more stern

1205
01:04:40,032 --> 01:04:42,712
Speaker 3: than it used to be. And it's not so much

1206
01:04:42,832 --> 01:04:45,512
Speaker 3: like a brush it off. It's like that's not okay,

1207
01:04:45,632 --> 01:04:48,231
Speaker 3: like you need to like step away kind of thing.

1208
01:04:48,552 --> 01:04:52,112
Speaker 1: So there's no more playing it nice to help anyone's feelings.

1209
01:04:52,152 --> 01:04:54,191
Speaker 2: It's literally just protect yourself. Now.

1210
01:04:54,392 --> 01:04:57,672
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not so much you know, being nice to

1211
01:04:57,712 --> 01:05:01,312
Speaker 3: people hasn't really gotten me anywhere. I'm still nice, I say,

1212
01:05:01,312 --> 01:05:04,952
Speaker 3: for the most part, but especially with men that seem

1213
01:05:05,032 --> 01:05:08,072
Speaker 3: like they have any interest, I just not. You know,

1214
01:05:08,672 --> 01:05:12,192
Speaker 3: you don't get the time of day. So some of

1215
01:05:12,192 --> 01:05:16,872
Speaker 3: those types of things have changed, for sure. I'm getting

1216
01:05:16,912 --> 01:05:19,552
Speaker 3: a bit better about doing things like on my own.

1217
01:05:19,632 --> 01:05:22,432
Speaker 3: I was somebody who's like very independent. I'd hike alone,

1218
01:05:22,592 --> 01:05:27,152
Speaker 3: I'd go camping alone, like sometimes and those are like

1219
01:05:27,232 --> 01:05:30,392
Speaker 3: things I just can't I don't feel safe doing anymore.

1220
01:05:30,792 --> 01:05:33,952
Speaker 1: Samith, I'd love to end with I don't know what

1221
01:05:34,072 --> 01:05:36,032
Speaker 1: advice you could give to someone who might have a

1222
01:05:36,032 --> 01:05:38,392
Speaker 1: stalker in their life right now, Like if someone is

1223
01:05:38,432 --> 01:05:41,872
Speaker 1: dealing with what you dealt with and is like really

1224
01:05:41,912 --> 01:05:44,392
Speaker 1: not knowing how to handle it, Like, what do you

1225
01:05:44,432 --> 01:05:47,032
Speaker 1: tell people who say that they're having a similar experience

1226
01:05:47,072 --> 01:05:47,312
Speaker 1: to you.

1227
01:05:48,072 --> 01:05:51,151
Speaker 3: I think i'd say, like, take it seriously. Like it's

1228
01:05:51,192 --> 01:05:54,032
Speaker 3: easier to brush off and think of it like, oh,

1229
01:05:54,112 --> 01:05:56,631
Speaker 3: it's not a big deal, but you don't know that

1230
01:05:56,752 --> 01:06:00,912
Speaker 3: it isn't a big deal yet, And trying to get

1231
01:06:00,952 --> 01:06:04,832
Speaker 3: help sooner than later is always good, even if it's

1232
01:06:04,992 --> 01:06:08,352
Speaker 3: just a matter of you having like a stalking log

1233
01:06:08,472 --> 01:06:12,992
Speaker 3: where you're documenting the times this person is contacting you,

1234
01:06:13,152 --> 01:06:17,032
Speaker 3: what your response is, or you know where you're seeing

1235
01:06:17,072 --> 01:06:19,832
Speaker 3: them in the event you do need that, and to

1236
01:06:19,912 --> 01:06:23,152
Speaker 3: file a police report sooner than later. If the police

1237
01:06:23,232 --> 01:06:24,952
Speaker 3: roll their eyes at you, they rolled their eyes at

1238
01:06:24,952 --> 01:06:28,232
Speaker 3: you like there's nothing, you have to do something about it,

1239
01:06:28,912 --> 01:06:34,512
Speaker 3: and it's discouraging to be met with resistance or skepticism,

1240
01:06:34,912 --> 01:06:39,392
Speaker 3: but you know, taking it seriously and reporting it to

1241
01:06:40,352 --> 01:06:45,232
Speaker 3: I think can help the person kind of go away sooner,

1242
01:06:45,312 --> 01:06:48,832
Speaker 3: depending you know what their what their response or what

1243
01:06:48,872 --> 01:06:54,512
Speaker 3: they're thinking. You know, communicate clearly, don't you know, Oh sorry,

1244
01:06:54,632 --> 01:06:59,392
Speaker 3: I'm busy, be very stern, be very clear. Let friends

1245
01:06:59,392 --> 01:07:01,792
Speaker 3: and family know about it, not so that they can

1246
01:07:01,832 --> 01:07:04,352
Speaker 3: be scared, but so that they are aware, you know,

1247
01:07:04,392 --> 01:07:07,312
Speaker 3: if something does happen to you, if they can be

1248
01:07:07,392 --> 01:07:10,472
Speaker 3: on the lookout if they see this person. I think

1249
01:07:10,552 --> 01:07:12,992
Speaker 3: jumping to the conclusion of stalking, you know, for me,

1250
01:07:13,192 --> 01:07:15,552
Speaker 3: was tough. I think you just like to think of, oh,

1251
01:07:15,592 --> 01:07:17,992
Speaker 3: this person's annoying. You're like, they just don't leave me alone,

1252
01:07:18,352 --> 01:07:21,672
Speaker 3: like they're probably stalking you. Like it maybe isn't to

1253
01:07:21,712 --> 01:07:25,472
Speaker 3: the you know extreme that mine was, but I never

1254
01:07:25,472 --> 01:07:27,632
Speaker 3: would have guessed that this was something that could happen

1255
01:07:27,672 --> 01:07:27,872
Speaker 3: to me.

1256
01:07:30,232 --> 01:07:33,072
Speaker 1: Stalking Samantha is now streaming on Disney Plus. Here in

1257
01:07:33,072 --> 01:07:36,592
Speaker 1: Australia Hulu. If you're listening somewhere not here. If you

1258
01:07:36,672 --> 01:07:39,552
Speaker 1: need support in fear you're being stalked, report it to

1259
01:07:39,592 --> 01:07:42,272
Speaker 1: the police. Additionally, if you need to talk about what's

1260
01:07:42,272 --> 01:07:44,312
Speaker 1: happening to you, you can reach out to one eight

1261
01:07:44,392 --> 01:07:47,151
Speaker 1: hundred Respect on their one eight hundred seven three seven

1262
01:07:47,392 --> 01:07:50,792
Speaker 1: seven three to two helpline. True Crime Conversations is a

1263
01:07:50,792 --> 01:07:54,312
Speaker 1: podcast hosted by me Claire Murphy and produced by Alaria

1264
01:07:54,392 --> 01:07:57,632
Speaker 1: Brophy and Tarlie Blackman, with audio designed by Jacob Brown.

1265
01:07:58,072 --> 01:08:00,472
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week

1266
01:08:00,632 --> 01:08:02,232
Speaker 1: with another True Crime Conversation