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Speaker 1: So I was really as a twelve year old as

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Speaker 1: close to broken as you can get, I think, so, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I kind of got diagnosed with anxiety when I was

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Speaker 1: really young, and then it wasn't until my early twenties

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Speaker 1: that I was diagnosed with depression, and then it wasn't

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Speaker 1: until kind of a decade later where a psychiatrist rediagnosed

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Speaker 1: me with bipolar. We recover loudly, so people don't suffer quietly.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy

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Speaker 2: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what

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Speaker 2: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but

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Speaker 2: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than

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Speaker 2: one way. So this is the platform to hear and

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Speaker 2: explore the stories of those who found lives They adore,

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Speaker 2: the good.

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Speaker 3: Bad and ugly.

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Speaker 2: The best and worst days will bear all the facets

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Speaker 2: of seizing your Yea. I'm Sarah Davidson or a spoonful

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Speaker 2: of Sarah, a lawyer turned fu entrepreneur who swapped the

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Speaker 2: suits and heels to co found matcha Maiden and matcha

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Speaker 2: Milk Bar. Ses The Ya is a series of conversations

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Speaker 2: on finding a life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge,

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Speaker 2: joy and fulfillment along the way.

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Speaker 3: Yighborhood, we are back with a guest episode.

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Speaker 2: For you, and one that has been a very long

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Speaker 2: time coming, but is well worth the wait. I'm so

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Speaker 2: excited to have finally sat down with a dear friend

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Speaker 2: of mine who a lot of Australia and a lot

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Speaker 2: of you may know as Matt from The Bachelor, which

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Speaker 2: is factual, but who I met outside of that context completely.

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Speaker 2: I think this might be the first time I admitted

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Speaker 2: I never actually watched his season of Batchie. You guys know,

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Speaker 2: I'm a true crime girlye, not a reality TV girly,

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Speaker 2: and I deliberately didn't catch up on the season, even

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Speaker 2: though normally I like to research someone within an inch

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Speaker 2: of their life, because I wanted to focus on Matt

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Speaker 2: not from the Batchie, a personality that maybe hasn't been

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Speaker 2: as exhaustively covered everywhere else With all our guests, you know,

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Speaker 2: I love to show us side people know a bit

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Speaker 2: less about, and even more so when it's a friend.

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Speaker 2: But then the great challenge is squeezing all of that

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Speaker 2: into an when you just want to showcase every single

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Speaker 2: thing you think is great about them, particularly when there

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Speaker 2: is impressive as a mat and when you feel like

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Speaker 2: often that sort of isn't the focus of media, which

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Speaker 2: obviously I didn't manage to do in a single hour.

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Speaker 2: It's impossible with anyone, let alone someone with as many

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Speaker 2: facets going on as Matt. So heads up that this

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Speaker 2: is part one of a two parter, should be really

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Speaker 2: four or five, but at this stage definitely two, where

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Speaker 2: we set the scene around the earlier days of Matt's WAITA.

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Speaker 2: You really should read his LinkedIn to understand why it's

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Speaker 2: a little reductive to only refer to his TV stint,

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Speaker 2: even though that is one part of him, rather than

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Speaker 2: the five degrees he has in not just normal degrees,

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Speaker 2: but maths, science, engineering, astrophysics, like literally the pinnacle of intelligence.

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Speaker 2: That's why we say it's not rocket science. He actually

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Speaker 2: knows about rocket science. He's a master five degrees, including

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Speaker 2: an actual PhD on space, so an infinitely impressive human.

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Speaker 2: Then he added two books, an incredible business pash which

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Speaker 2: we will talk all about. I didn't leave enough time

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Speaker 2: for that, but we'll give much more detail in part

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Speaker 2: two as well, a stint on Shark Tank, which might

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Speaker 2: not have even come out by the time this does,

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Speaker 2: but definitely will have by part two. Hopefully amongst all

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Speaker 2: of this you do get a dose of a mat

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Speaker 2: you might not already know. But I also think astrophysics, AI, dating,

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Speaker 2: both of our experiences with quitting drinking that in the

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Speaker 2: context of dating as well, definitely deserve more time than

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Speaker 2: we had in this part one. So you'll hear more

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Speaker 2: about those in part two, and I think it's particularly fascinating.

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Speaker 2: I've already had some DMS saying is you single? That's hilarious.

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Speaker 2: We will definitely cover dating and how not having alcohol

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Speaker 2: in that context has changed him kind of a social experiment.

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Speaker 2: I think that will be really fascinating, So that will

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Speaker 2: all be in part two. But perhaps it's fitting that

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Speaker 2: a lot of Part one were spent on what Matt

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Speaker 2: calls his salad of mental health issues about which we've

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Speaker 2: bonded in the past, but also about which he speaks

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Speaker 2: so vulnerably and powerfully, especially in an area where you'll

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Speaker 2: hear us mention that a lot of mental health issues

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Speaker 2: have become more common and well understood, but there are

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Speaker 2: some that are still considered quite extreme or still quite stigmatized,

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Speaker 2: and yet he is incredibly generous in how he speaks

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Speaker 2: about things like bipolar and manic episodes, and I think

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Speaker 2: that's perhaps very fitting that this episode has a lot

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Speaker 2: of that as we move into November, and a sharper

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Speaker 2: focus on men's health. So a little content warning that

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Speaker 2: we do briefly touch on suicide and similar in this episode,

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Speaker 2: so please take care while listening, and I'll of course

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Speaker 2: include links to relevant resources in the show notes. Otherwise,

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Speaker 2: this was, above all a wonderful chat between friends that

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Speaker 2: did go off on many many tangents, but perhaps that

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Speaker 2: give us even a better insight into who he is

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Speaker 2: as a person outside of the Batchie, and I really

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Speaker 2: hope you guys enjoy stay tuned as well for part two.

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Speaker 3: Matthew Terrence Agnew Welcome to.

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Speaker 1: The show, Terrence in trouble No.

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Speaker 2: I I just feel like your title almost everywhere is

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Speaker 2: Matt from The Bachelor, which is factual, So like, you

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Speaker 2: can't get mad.

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Speaker 1: At people for using exaccurate.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's factually accurate, but in my mind, I was like,

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Speaker 2: I have to choose a different name because I met

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Speaker 2: you not as Matt from the Bachelor, and I feel

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Speaker 2: like you've been exhaustively interviewed and chatted to and about

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Speaker 2: in that capacity, which again factual juicy. Yes, lots to

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Speaker 2: talk about there, but that's sort of not the mat

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Speaker 2: that I know. And I don't know if I've told

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Speaker 2: you I've never actually watched your season?

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Speaker 3: Have I told you that?

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Speaker 1: I know, I don't think you have really Nah, which

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Speaker 1: is not surprising.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not Why is that not spris well?

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Speaker 1: I mean it was more of a sense that I mean,

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Speaker 1: I didn't even watch my season. I watched like three

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Speaker 1: or four episodes interesting. I found it. I was like, nah,

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Speaker 1: this is too weird, like this there was also incorrect

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Speaker 1: representations of people, Yes, were they're mischaracterize based on the

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Speaker 1: end since I was just like, that's not what happened,

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Speaker 1: So this is uncomfortable and be inaccurate. So I didn't

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Speaker 1: watch it. So I guess it's not surprising in the

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Speaker 1: sense that if I didn't watch it, it's you know, my

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Speaker 1: friend's not watching it is not kind of you know,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't stray too far from my own opinions.

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Speaker 2: Which I kind of think is has been really nice

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Speaker 2: experience because often when you meet someone who is in

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Speaker 2: the media and who has quite a public profile, you

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Speaker 2: have already watched the show, so you come into the

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Speaker 2: friendship with like preconceptions and like, you know, I know

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Speaker 2: your staff sign, we've been through Gemini Gate, you know

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Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff, right, And I came into

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Speaker 2: it without any of that, bonded with you over totally

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Speaker 2: different things. And then it's interesting because I knew it

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Speaker 2: was too much to watch. I was like, oh, I can't, like,

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Speaker 2: that's giving me such ick And I've met Abby. I'd

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Speaker 2: met a lot of people in that season without the

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Speaker 2: context of the show, and then met them as like

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Speaker 2: complete people, and then that's the person I wanted to

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Speaker 2: like and trade on.

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Speaker 1: Yes, which your language there, meeting people as complete people?

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Speaker 1: I think, is it rings really true? And is what

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Speaker 1: is hugely missing from shows like The Bachelor or any

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Speaker 1: reality TV really Instead of meeting a complete person, you

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Speaker 1: get this single faceted, put in one bucket, one dimensional character. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I think again the language character is probably accurate

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Speaker 1: because that's how people see and that's why the trolling

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Speaker 1: is so visceral. I guess, yeah, totally, because it's not

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Speaker 1: a complete person. It's a one dimensional character, and so

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Speaker 1: it's very easy to separate. I guess the human element

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Speaker 1: when it's a character.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think that our lives being so digital

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Speaker 2: and online also lends to that one facet that you're seeing,

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Speaker 2: even for people who are really authentic and try and share,

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Speaker 2: like even me, I overshare majorly, and there's still so

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Speaker 2: much that people wouldn't know.

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Speaker 3: So even putting the.

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Speaker 2: Battery side of your side, I still feel like there

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Speaker 2: are so many facets that I almost felt more pressure

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Speaker 2: than normally coming into an episode with a friend because

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Speaker 2: I want to share the U that I know with everyone,

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Speaker 2: and like that's extraordinarily difficult because I'm like, how do

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Speaker 2: I do that in like a short amount of time

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Speaker 2: when there's so many different things. So I will first

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Speaker 2: say to everyone who wants batchy juice, because.

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Speaker 3: It's batchy juice, right, like.

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Speaker 2: Anyone who wants batchy juice, and absolutely fair enough, because

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Speaker 2: there's a reason reality TV is, Like I just happened

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Speaker 2: to be one of those you either go reality TV

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Speaker 2: or crime junkie. I went crime junkie, right, So.

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Speaker 1: I went crime junkie like weird documentary.

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Speaker 2: Right like at UFOs, like, yeah, we'll be there. We're

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Speaker 2: mutually bonded over that. But there's a reason why the

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Speaker 2: nation loves it so much. So if that's your jam,

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Speaker 2: Abby Chatfield on it's a lot.

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Speaker 3: Pod just did a two.

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Speaker 2: Parter with Matt that goes through everything, like literally dissects

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Speaker 2: all the behind the scenes, the six months that you

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Speaker 2: guys didn't speak, the six months after that, the reunion,

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Speaker 2: like it clarifies a lot. So if you want Batchie juice,

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Speaker 2: absolutely go there. There's like a place in different pods.

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Speaker 1: Right, you don't need to call it batchie juice if

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Speaker 1: you want. You don't say I'm going to tune into

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Speaker 1: Abby to listen to Batchie juice. You can, but you

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Speaker 1: can also call it that if you can, right.

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Speaker 2: Like each choose your own adventure. Yeah right, But what

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Speaker 2: I really wanted to do is Leah, like I said,

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Speaker 2: explore all the parts of you that aren't the Batchie

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Speaker 2: And also for Abby. Abby has also been on CZA

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Speaker 2: and is just an absolute gem. Again, I think you

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Speaker 2: see like one side of her. So go back to

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Speaker 2: episode one hundred and fifty seven, which was a few

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Speaker 2: years ago, or to her show and the two part

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Speaker 2: of which is actually an amazing listen. It's so much fun,

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Speaker 2: you guys show the funniest sides of you. And I've

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Speaker 2: learned a lot of stuff about recording as well, Like

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that you record like over three nights

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Speaker 2: the meetings of the women, so you didn't even meet

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Speaker 2: them all in one go.

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Speaker 1: Like that's wild, yeah, kind of Yeah, And the first

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Speaker 1: night you don't meet anyone is like, that's so weird.

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Speaker 1: You just get done in this situation. That's really surreal.

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Speaker 1: It's bizarre. You're talking to the first time I met Osha,

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Speaker 1: you don't meet him before, so wild. Yeah, it's quite

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Speaker 1: it's quite intense. And then obviously you meet all the

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Speaker 1: women and then you kind of don't really get to

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Speaker 1: talk to them after. And then on third night you

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Speaker 1: finally get to actually you know, mingle with them and

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Speaker 1: get to know them. But again, it's you know, these

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Speaker 1: short snippets. They are encouraged by producers to I don't

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Speaker 1: want to say interrupt, but very much. You need to

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Speaker 1: be proactive. You want to talk to Matt. You can't

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Speaker 1: just wait your turn.

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Speaker 3: Wow, So it's hung again, Yeah, a.

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Speaker 1: Little bit for bat. So if I'm in conversation with Son,

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Speaker 1: I'm acutely aware that I've only got you know, three

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Speaker 1: to five minutes, probably before someone you know asks to

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Speaker 1: have a chat with me too.

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Speaker 2: Well, guys, I will include the link in the show

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Speaker 2: notes to the Abby two part of and you Know.

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Speaker 2: A summary dot point is that Matt's experience was marginal

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Speaker 2: below ourverages.

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Speaker 3: I think the way that you.

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Speaker 2: Described it largely diplomatic language also life changing.

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Speaker 3: But what I want.

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Speaker 2: To start with is what you just said that there

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Speaker 2: are lots of articles that have come out of that

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Speaker 2: that kind of are, like we said, factual, but I

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Speaker 2: find them, as a friend quite reductive. You are Matt

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Speaker 2: from the Bachelor, who also happens to have like literally

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Speaker 2: five degrees. So when they say Matt from the Bachelor,

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Speaker 2: who's also a nerd, like sure, actual nerd, actual astrophysicist.

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Speaker 2: But I just want to list them to remind everyone.

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Speaker 2: We'll have already said this in the Buyer, but I

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Speaker 2: feel like it needs repeating.

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Speaker 3: So you have.

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Speaker 2: Literally two bachelor degrees, which is already enough for most people.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: In fact, most people only do one or none. So

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Speaker 2: there's science and engineering. Then you did a master's in.

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Speaker 1: Astrophysics, got the bug, the astrobug.

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Speaker 3: Got the bug.

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Speaker 2: Then you did a PhD in astrophysics a dynamic search

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Speaker 2: for habitable worlds and solar system analogue. That's just for

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Speaker 2: anyone who needs to know how smart it actually it was.

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Speaker 2: I've got some leave it and then went back and

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Speaker 2: dio the master's I've applied artificial intelligence. Yes, so not

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Speaker 2: only are you infinitely qualified, but when people like the

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Speaker 2: pinnacle of intellect is when people say it's not rocket science, and.

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Speaker 3: Yet that is actually kind of what you do.

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Speaker 2: You've done mechanical engineering, you do astrophysics, you talk about space,

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Speaker 2: and now artificial intelligence. Do you find it annoying when

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Speaker 2: people continue to refer to you as Matt from The Bachelor,

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Speaker 2: or is it just a factual thing that you're like,

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Speaker 2: I put myself forward for that, and that's kind of

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Speaker 2: people need context.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a little bit of I made my bed,

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Speaker 1: I'll sleep in it, so it's it's certainly part of

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Speaker 1: my history. I don't it happened, you know, I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to cover it up or anything a scandal, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: I definitely I try not to lean into it. It's

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Speaker 1: one of the things that's happened in my life. There's

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Speaker 1: a bunch of other things where I guess I'm more

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Speaker 1: proud of the achievement. I think reality TV is not

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Speaker 1: an achievement. I just did stuff on TV, right, And

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Speaker 1: so I see the other things in my life that

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Speaker 1: i've the goals that I've set, the things that I've

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Speaker 1: achieved as things that I'm much more proud of. So

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Speaker 1: does it annoy me? Not annoy I guess it's frustrating

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Speaker 1: if that's the only thing they know about me, or

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Speaker 1: if they introduce me, especially when it's within an academic context.

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Speaker 1: That happens less now, especially because typically if I'm doing things,

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Speaker 1: you know, with museums or talking as a STEM keynote speaker,

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Speaker 1: things like that, the Bachelor kind of doesn't really impact

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Speaker 1: or as it's something that people aren't really I don't

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Speaker 1: really care about. It doesn't really lend credit to why

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Speaker 1: I'm doing these things. So yeah, it kind of doesn't

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Speaker 1: come up loads. The other thing is, I think, and

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Speaker 1: I've probably come around with this a little bit more,

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Speaker 1: is it can be used a little bit to bring

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Speaker 1: people into the tent. And I saw this with when

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Speaker 1: I was announced as the Bachelor. The astrophysicist. You actually

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Speaker 1: could look in the Google search as the astrophysics and

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Speaker 1: there was this huge spike that went up enormously, so

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Speaker 1: you could see this huge kickup in people googling astrophysics. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: and so it kind of it shone a bit of

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Speaker 1: a light on an area of science that people have

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Speaker 1: probably heard in passing. You know, astrophysics, Einstein, that kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff astrophysicists, I know, yeah, so you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's people's probably. I think there was an arc

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Speaker 1: early on saying something about his friends call him Sheldon

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Speaker 1: Cooper or something. I'm like, no one's ever called me,

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Speaker 1: but sure whatever. I heard that hard hitting journalism at

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Speaker 1: Daily Mail. But so it kind of it drew attention

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Speaker 1: to it, and I think now it does still a

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Speaker 1: little bit and I liken it too. You know, when

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Speaker 1: you're giving a dog so medicine, you put the medicine

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Speaker 1: inside a spoon of peanut butter. I think the Bachelor

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Speaker 1: sometimes can be used as the peanut butter, and so

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Speaker 1: sometimes it gets people to engage, and then I can

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Speaker 1: use that engagement to kind of then start speaking about

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Speaker 1: things that I'm really passionate about, which is largely science,

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Speaker 1: but also things like mental health advocacy and other social

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Speaker 1: issues that I lend my voice to and I'm passionate

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Speaker 1: and stand behind, so it's not annoying. And I think

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Speaker 1: I've come around a bit more to understanding that there's

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Speaker 1: I can leverage it to continue to make bigger impact

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Speaker 1: in the spaces I want to make an impact. But

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Speaker 1: when it's yeah, when it boils down to just mat

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Speaker 1: from the batch, so it's like, Okay, hang on, I've

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Speaker 1: got some machines. Yeah, and I've got other things that

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Speaker 1: mean I can talk about these other things, all these

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Speaker 1: important things, more authentically and with a bit of authority

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Speaker 1: as well. And so I think that's where it can

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Speaker 1: be annoying when that's lost. It's not just I've done

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Speaker 1: a reality here and now I'm trying to talk authoritatively

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Speaker 1: on these topics that I've got no credentials or no

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Speaker 1: lived experience. So that's that's probably the annoying part. But

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Speaker 1: that happens less and less, and I think obviously five

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Speaker 1: years on now and in the spaces I've worked and

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Speaker 1: people are more aware of the things that I've experienced,

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Speaker 1: the things I've spoken about vulnerably and authentically, and the

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Speaker 1: credential that I have that I can speak to with

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Speaker 1: that sort of yeah, that qualification.

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Speaker 2: I love that you have been able to see it

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Speaker 2: as a silver lining because it has given you a

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Speaker 2: bigger platform for the things that you love. And I

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Speaker 2: got really honest with myself recently when I was doing

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Speaker 2: keynote about imposter syndrome and self doubt, and I realized

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Speaker 2: that the reason I leave lawyer turned entrepreneur in my

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Speaker 2: title for everything is because I need that legitimacy, Like

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Speaker 2: I don't want to just drop it off altogether, because

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Speaker 2: I'm sort of positioning myself in a way that I've

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Speaker 2: actually had multiple opportunities to pursue certain reality TV shows

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Speaker 2: and chosen not to because I thought I've worked so

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Speaker 2: hard to have some of my identity, not all of it.

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Speaker 2: Like I'm obviously you know, love true crime and love

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Speaker 2: just airhead stuff and like a my total DIDs. But

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Speaker 2: in one part of my brain, I am quite an

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Speaker 2: intellect and I didn't want to let go of that.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting that I'm like, that's also my ego talking,

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Speaker 2: but I still leave it there. And I know that

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Speaker 2: about myself, but I still have to lead with by

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Speaker 2: the way, guys, I did do this and I do

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Speaker 2: these other things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I yeah, I can really relate to that.

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Speaker 1: I still do that largely when people say what do

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Speaker 1: I do, Like, what's the job? And I've got, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of hands in a few different pies, and I

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Speaker 1: always kind of start with well, up until the start

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Speaker 1: of last year, I worked as a data scientist in

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Speaker 1: big tech because there's this sort of you know, I

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Speaker 1: do things like content creation, influencing basically, And I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you're the same where you're like, well, I don't want

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Speaker 1: to just be put in that box and people see

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Speaker 1: you as, oh, just an influencer, which anyone who's worked

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Speaker 1: within as an influencer will know that it's it's quite

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Speaker 1: a hard job, and it yeah, people have this preconceived

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Speaker 1: idea of what it is, and it's like you post

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Speaker 1: a picture old on a product and yet paid thousands

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Speaker 1: of dollars and that's not at all. There's a real

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Speaker 1: skill to creating compelling content and cutting through the audience

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Speaker 1: in that huge kind of flood of information and content

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Speaker 1: that everyone's exposed to you. So it's firstly it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's a harder job. But yeah, I think I've got

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Speaker 1: that same sort of imposter syndrome where I'm seeking to

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Speaker 1: maintain Yeah, and so that's something that I shouldn't feel,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure you feel the same, but it's kind

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Speaker 1: of I guess the social pressure and commentary and that

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Speaker 1: comes with being in the public eye and participating in

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Speaker 1: the in the influencing world, that you feel the need

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Speaker 1: that you need to still justify to people will hang

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Speaker 1: on that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not just an influencer, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Even though being I hate yeah, just an influence is

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Speaker 1: such a reductive Yeah. And I hope that I've made

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Speaker 1: it clear to people who are influencers that this is

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Speaker 1: not a dig. I don't do anything nearly as well

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Speaker 1: as full time influences to because it is a job,

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Speaker 1: and I think once you've actually done it, you recognize

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Speaker 1: how good they are what they do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's funny that we have actually had conversations

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Speaker 2: in our friendship about that and like bandied around terms

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Speaker 2: like pure influencer and how we're not in that bucket

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Speaker 2: because I've done other things. But it's funny that we

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Speaker 2: feel the need to do that, yeah, where.

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Speaker 1: There shouldn't be that at all, you know. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a completely legitimate career and it's in itself, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's this sort of yeah, yeah, so no, it's funny

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Speaker 1: and nothing. It's it's definitely something that I mean. I

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Speaker 1: didn't even call it influencing because I felt this sort

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Speaker 1: of being an impostor and that it was I was

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Speaker 1: shame because I was doing this, and so what did

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Speaker 1: I used to say? Branded content? I was like, I

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Speaker 1: do branded content. And it wasn't until a few of

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Speaker 1: my friends get Ward's that, oh you know, like products,

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Speaker 1: and like you mean influencing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, influencing marketing spin in itself.

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Speaker 2: I think Nick used to have when he was in

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Speaker 2: nightcl His business card said female public relations officer.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, so promoters put us that's a skill.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, So yeah, now it's it's you know, that's

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Speaker 1: a step for me in being able to confidently say, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm an influence side. I do stuff on Instagram, creating

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Speaker 1: content for brands, trying to as the name is it

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Speaker 1: influence people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that's definitely it's a me problem

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Speaker 1: in terms of being prouder to say that rather than

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Speaker 1: having to say I used to work in big tech. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, that's probably rambled a bit too.

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Speaker 2: No, oh my god, I knew that this episode was

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Speaker 2: going to be a massive ramble because our conversations like guys.

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Speaker 2: For context, we met again, not from The Bachelor. I

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Speaker 2: hadn't watched a season. We met in Electric Ladyland, so

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Speaker 2: in a nightclub context, we were both not drinking yep,

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Speaker 2: and we're the probably only ones in the whole venue

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Speaker 2: not drink yeah, I would think, so like probably yeah,

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Speaker 2: I would say, we would be the only ones nursing

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Speaker 2: sparkling waters with lemon and ice, so we wouldn't be

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Speaker 2: bothered by anyone asking why we weren't drinking.

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Speaker 3: And then I think the first thing we.

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Speaker 2: Actually bonded about was our mutual anti present medication, which

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Speaker 2: is a really interesting thing to bond with someone over

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Speaker 2: in the middle of a dance floor, like we both

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Speaker 2: just did not belong there at the time.

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Speaker 1: Memory, Yeah, it was.

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Speaker 2: I was digging deep for this, and I thought I

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Speaker 2: wanted to give context to how like the Mat that

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Speaker 2: I met is such a different match to the Matt

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Speaker 2: I would have met if I'd watched your season first.

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Speaker 1: And at the time I hadn't really spoken much about

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00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 1: my mental health publicly, so this was a more vulnerable conversation.

434
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 1: I think it speaks volumes to our friendship the fact

435
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 1: that I felt comfortable with you to be quite open

436
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 1: and vulnerable on our first meeting.

437
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 2: I feel like we both had a massive vulnerability hangover

438
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 2: after because I was like, what did I just like

439
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 2: tell this dude all my like random shit in my

440
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 2: brain that I should not let out of the cage.

441
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 1: We got deep, ever, I remember we got deep, like

442
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 1: we all going back to childhood stuff and it was great.

443
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 1: But yeah, I think we both checked in the next hour.

444
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:21,680
Speaker 1: I was like, how are you feeling after?

445
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 3: Are you okay picking up all of.

446
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 1: These feelings and emotions? Yeah?

447
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 2: And I also think carn who's our mutual connect, was

448
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,000
Speaker 2: just like I'm just going to leave this conversation like

449
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 2: I don't have a place here.

450
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, No, that's he was up and about and

451
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,360
Speaker 1: enjoying himself. Yeah.

452
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 2: So why I am so excited about this episode is

453
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 2: because having met in that context and you have done

454
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:51,479
Speaker 2: I think in April last year, did an incredibly powerful

455
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 2: interview with Jess Rowe, which I think is the first

456
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 2: time that you had really spoken as much in depth

457
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 2: about your mental health, the salad of mental health issues,

458
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:05,760
Speaker 2: I think you call it, which I love and as

459
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 2: much as I do often like bandy, around laughter, around

460
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 2: having many bees, and the breakdowns I have every week,

461
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 2: which you know in my season of motherhood is absolutely true.

462
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 2: There is a more an actual serious definition of breakdown

463
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:21,879
Speaker 2: that in our friendship. I've seen you go through a

464
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 2: couple of times. I've also gone through a couple of

465
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 2: times myself, both before and after you. I think Abby

466
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 2: called it came out as having mental health issue. But

467
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 2: why I'm so excited about this is because while the

468
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: show is all about yay and joy, I think it's

469
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 2: easy to tell those stories when someone has a really

470
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 2: not breezy life but quite a straightforward journey to passion

471
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 2: and joy and fulfillment. Whereas you're a shining example of

472
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 2: the fact that you have a constant challenge to have

473
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,399
Speaker 2: a baseline that is not dangerous is the way that

474
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 2: I've heard you say it. So even just to have

475
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 2: a neutral emotional safe space, let alone happiness and yeay,

476
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 2: it takes you an enormous amount to do that, And

477
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 2: that is just a biological unfairness in the lottery of life.

478
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 2: It's so unfair that you have to do that. It's

479
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 2: so unfair that it costs a lot that you know,

480
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,679
Speaker 2: some people don't have the privilege to do that, Like

481
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 2: You've covered it so eloquently in Jess's episode, but I

482
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 2: want to kind of go through it more chronologically to

483
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,919
Speaker 2: show that while it started very early in your life,

484
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 2: you can face the extremity of your mental health issues

485
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 2: and still live a really happy life, which is something

486
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 2: that I admire so much because I face that in

487
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 2: a much much smaller, much easier to manage scale, and

488
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 2: yet still sometimes I think, oh my god, how do

489
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,480
Speaker 2: I find joy again? And it's a really refreshing friendship

490
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 2: to have with you, where often you sort of will

491
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 2: go for a walk and you'll say like, I'm not great,

492
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:57,680
Speaker 2: or you'll be like, I've just come out of I've

493
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 2: gone to rock bottom, but.

494
00:24:58,800 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 3: I've back out of the loop.

495
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: It's a privilege to watch you go through these circles

496
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 2: of really low and pulling yourself back to really high

497
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 2: and still be able to come back and enjoy your life.

498
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 2: And that's yeah, really, I'm really proud to be your

499
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 2: friend and aught to do that.

500
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: Thank you. And yeah, I think it's I'm acutely aware of,

501
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: Like when you mentioned the lottery of life, I've been

502
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 1: dealt a very good hand in the terms of you know, objectively,

503
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 1: I'm in a very privileged position from a number of

504
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: different metrics, and this is just one of the shit

505
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: parts that I was dell. But I'm acutely aware that

506
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 1: compared to some people's positions, I'm still in a very

507
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: luxurious position. I think it's well to your point with

508
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 1: we deal with things in different I think you used

509
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:51,719
Speaker 1: to a smaller degree. I think it's not really helpful

510
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: to talk about degrees of it. I think everyone's going

511
00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: through their own battles and how you experience that relative

512
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: to how you're living kind of isn't influenced or impacted

513
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: by what someone else is going through. So yeah, I

514
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 1: mean it's the whole whole thing. And those people say, oh,

515
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: you know, someone's got it worse, and it's like, well,

516
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 1: that's saying there's one person on the planet who can

517
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 1: be miserable, and everyone else has got some money that's

518
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: got worse in them. So I think these kind of comparatives, Yeah,

519
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 1: it's kind of an unhelpful way to frame things, And

520
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: I think it's important people recognize that that whatever your

521
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: challenge is or whatever mental illness you're battling through, whether

522
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: that's a mood disorder, personality disorder. Yeah, everyone's going through

523
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: these things, and your experience is whatever it is. You

524
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 1: don't need to say or think that someone else. Yeah,

525
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: And I think some people do sometimes get stuck in

526
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 1: that sort of spiral of thinking, oh, well, I shouldn't

527
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 1: feel bad because someone else has got it worse. And yeah,

528
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's really important that people

529
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: know that whatever your challenges and battles are, they're they're

530
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: uniquely your and they're just as valid as anyone else's.

531
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 2: I'm also even more inspired by the way that you

532
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 2: spoke out on Jess's podcast having so much I mean,

533
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 2: it's already difficult to talk about for anybody, but having

534
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 2: such a public profile. And secondly, you mentioned how there's

535
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 2: sort of a spectrum of mental health. Illness is some

536
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 2: are sort of not trendy but more acceptable, and then

537
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 2: things like bipolar are probably still lesser known, more stigmatized.

538
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 2: And I don't think I can top that interview in

539
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 2: terms of how well you both covered it, but I

540
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 2: do think that the more conversation we had, the better.

541
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 3: So what I want to do with.

542
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 2: You is go through the fact that you have faced

543
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 2: this since I think twelve years old was what you said.

544
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 2: And I always go back to the very beginning to

545
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 2: show that you meet someone at the chapter you're in,

546
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 2: you're extremely qualified doing amazing things.

547
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 3: You were just at south By Southwest.

548
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 2: We talked about you are doing influencer work with the

549
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 2: coolest companies and climbing the bridges, and people walk into

550
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 2: that chapter and underestimate how what has taken you to

551
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 2: get here, let alone, when the industry you've gone into

552
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 2: is extremely existential and uncertain. And I would think that

553
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 2: someone who's got extreme anxiety and then space do not

554
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: necessarily tie together. So let's go back to your childhood.

555
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 2: Born in Adelaide, raised in Perth. Yes, first sort of

556
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 2: started having anxiety at twelve years old, but then did

557
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 2: the Mars Path find a mission project? And then space

558
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: became a thing talker through your childhood.

559
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, so born in Adelaide, lived therefore just up till

560
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: the turn of the millennium. Actually, so I almost kind of.

561
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 3: Sound so old.

562
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: Circle the nineties. So yeah, born in Adelaide, and I

563
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: think the the I was a very loud and naughty child, really, yeah,

564
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: very loud and naughty. My mum or My parents both

565
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: bring up that in was it kindergarten? It might have

566
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: been year one reception, very early education year. Both my

567
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: older brother when he went through had to sit next

568
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: to the teacher, and then when I went through, I

569
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: did as well, but he had to sit there because

570
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: he was nervous and quite timid and shy where his

571
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: mind was. I was too naughty to be trusted not being.

572
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 2: Next to the two nice nice they got a bit

573
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 2: of both.

574
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I was. I was always very loud, very outgoing. Yes,

575
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: very naughty. I was a bit of a naughty boy

576
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: in school. And yeah, got hooked on space. It was

577
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: a year four project, very young, and it was and

578
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: I think prior to that, I love space. I think

579
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: every child does. They go My nephews currently going through

580
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: a space phase himself, so I've you know, I spoiled

581
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: him with things. And another one of my mates has

582
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: a child whose he is a son who's three, and

583
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: he's currently going through and popping up with all these

584
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: science and space questions, and so I think all children

585
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: have this space period. But yeah, this kind of translation

586
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: from space phase to something I was a lot more

587
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: interested in was Yeah, this year full project library project.

588
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if they still do them. Do you

589
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: remember projects in primary school world, they'll kind of open

590
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: end it. It was like, you need to.

591
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 3: Research make a diorama?

592
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: What topic? Right?

593
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:20,719
Speaker 3: A topic?

594
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember I did one on gorillas once because

595
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: I really liked gorillas.

596
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 3: I did the tree kangaroo.

597
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know what. Yeah, one on glaciers and icebergs. One.

598
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 3: This was a great time.

599
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: I loved primary school assignments compared to what eventually happened.

600
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: All right, let's yeah, I loved But I digress. And

601
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: so I didn't know what to do it on. And

602
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: my mum suggested I do it on the NASA path

603
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: Final Mission of Mars. And I didn't know what that was.

604
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: And my mum both my parents are nerds. They both

605
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: got science and mathematics backgrounds. My mum also loved astronomy.

606
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: She did a bit of quite a few astronomy units

607
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 1: during her degree. She ended up getting a majoring in

608
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: pure mathematics, not astronomy, which pure mathematics is that next

609
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: les It's awful. Kudos to her for smashing through a

610
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: pure math degree anyway, So she said, na's apart find

611
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: a mission of Mars, and it just so happened at

612
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: the time because it was topical. It was happening right then.

613
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: There was in the advertiser, the Adelaide paper, there was

614
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: a two page spread and I had pictures of the rover,

615
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,719
Speaker 1: had photos of images that they had taken on the

616
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: Martian surface, and I remember just being absolutely obsessed. Did

617
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: my project on that, And then space has always been

618
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: a big interest of mine since that. So it's this real, yeah,

619
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: kind of turning point moment for me that I can

620
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: pinpoint where it went from there, this childhood curiosity to

621
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: I like space. Wow, my mum is almost entirely to

622
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: blame for that.

623
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 3: Yes, I like that.

624
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: So that was that, And then I moved to We

625
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: moved to Perth. The old Man some work over there,

626
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: so we moved there, originally for three years, ended up

627
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: staying thirteen. My folks are also still there. Three years

628
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: has extended significantly. So moved there and I at the time,

629
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: I remember in the lead up going I was excited

630
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,959
Speaker 1: about the change. I upon getting there, it struggled enormously. Obviously,

631
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: it was something I hadn't anticipated. I'd gone anythink it

632
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: would be a really fun adventure and just I adjusted

633
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: really badly. So I was I think I was twelve.

634
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: This was around the Yeah, it was actually I might

635
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: have been eleven. And so, yeah, this adjustment I struggled with.

636
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: I had some bad experiences at the school, and I

637
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: ended up going into this real anxiety spiral that essentially

638
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: led my parents to getting me a psychologist. So I

639
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: started seeing a psych and I missed a lot of

640
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: school where I was just in the morning hysterical. I'd

641
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: be crying, I was throwing up before school, and there

642
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: was a long period of time my mum was like,

643
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: I can't send him. He's so I was really, as

644
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: a twelve year old, as close to broken as you

645
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: can get, I think from an anxiety perspective. And that

646
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: kind of lasted for most of year seven. I got

647
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: a little better, but I still missed a lot of school,

648
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: and then year nine again a little better but still

649
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: missing a lot of school and seeing a psychologist and

650
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: having kind of systems in place with the school that

651
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 1: I could talk to certain counselors and teachers who I

652
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: guess kind of understood how to support mental illness a

653
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: little better than others. And so I had this Yeah,

654
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: these real systems in place to kind of nurse me

655
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 1: through that period. And then from year ten to year twelve,

656
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: I kind of got through a lot of anxiety. But

657
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: I just was not this loud, gregarious fun boy that

658
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 1: I was in primary school. I was really really quiet,

659
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: very subdued. Everyone kind of just assumed he's just a

660
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: quiet nerd, which was not accurate based on how I

661
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: was behaving. Yeah, but it was like chalk and cheese

662
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: compared to what I was like as a child, as

663
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: a young primary school child. So that's kind of I

664
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: guess the story around my first you know, brushes with

665
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: mental illness and how much it impacted my life, and

666
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,879
Speaker 1: I guess impacted my schooling quite significantly. I don't know

667
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: how many days I would have missed in total, but

668
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:32,720
Speaker 1: it was huge numbers, three figures plus wow, quite easily

669
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: across those those kind of year seven, year eight in particular.

670
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 1: Year nine got a little better.

671
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 2: But that's such a formative time as well for a

672
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 2: young teenager. You know, you're on the cusp of puberty,

673
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 2: and as a mom of a young boy who's I

674
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 2: mean only like basically just out of his blog phase,

675
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 2: but already that part of my heart that just wants

676
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: him to have such a good life and his childhood

677
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 2: where he's un burdened by the weight of the world

678
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: to last as long as possible.

679
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 3: It makes me want to cry thinking that at twelve.

680
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 2: You were facing concepts and feelings that I didn't even

681
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 2: think about until much much further into adulthood. And I

682
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 2: mean some people get through their whole life without a psychologist. Ever, Yep,

683
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 2: sometimes it happens a bit later. But twelve, I think

684
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 2: by most standards, is extraordinarily early.

685
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I ended up years later. It would have

686
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: been kind of late teens, I reckon maybe even twenty

687
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,240
Speaker 1: when I had another kind of battling with mental illness

688
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: that I actually went back to my child psychologists the

689
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: same lie. Yeah, And so I was just within I

690
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 1: think they hold records for I don't know, seven or

691
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: eight years or something like that, and I was struggling

692
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: again with because I kind of after that period up

693
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: till about year ten eleven twelve, when I started moving

694
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: into UNI, I started regaining my confidence and becoming much

695
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: more gregarious and outgoing and far less anxious. And so

696
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 1: there was this period where I probably and I imagine

697
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 1: this is not uncommon. It's like, oh, I fixed it, Yeah,

698
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: not recognizing the fact that that mental illness and mood

699
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 1: disorders they're with you for life. There's certainly management strategies

700
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:21,959
Speaker 1: you can implement, but it's a chemical imbalance, it's biologically

701
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: you can't just fix it. And so I had this

702
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 1: period where I kind of wasn't seeing a psychologist and

703
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: I hadn't started on medication then. But yeah, I ended

704
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,959
Speaker 1: up going back to my psychologist, and that was quite

705
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 1: It was a weird sensation kind of going back to

706
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 1: someone who had seen me through these several year struggling

707
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: years that I was facing and then kind of coming

708
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 1: back and you know, I'd kind of achieved a few

709
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 1: things since then, So there was probably this element for

710
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 1: him of Okay, he has kind of navigated this challenge

711
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: quite well, but he's back, so obviously there's still things

712
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: to grapple with.

713
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 2: You're even up just to this point, if anything, a

714
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 2: great and reassuring example for people in their own journeys

715
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 2: or parents for their children's journeys that even having missed

716
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 2: at a lot of school and with challenges that do

717
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 2: affect the brain of all things and motivation and interaction

718
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 2: that you still can go into probably the most highly

719
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:29,879
Speaker 2: demanding pathway of academia that's possible, because I think that

720
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 2: one of the big fears around any kind of mental

721
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 2: health struggle, but anything that really disrupts your schooling, is

722
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 2: that you won't be able to do something high achieving.

723
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 2: And I think maybe that's the reason why people often

724
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 2: say my mental illness is a great burden and like

725
00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 2: a devil on my shoulder, But it can be a

726
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 2: superpower because often brains that can feel great lows can

727
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 2: also achieve and feel great highs. Have you felt that

728
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 2: it has been both a burden and a blessing or

729
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 2: is it just been one or the other? Do you

730
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 2: think it does your brain is high functioning like that

731
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 2: sort of all tied together as one thing.

732
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: So yeah, I kind of got diagnosed with anxiety when

733
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: I was really young, and then it wasn't until in

734
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: my early twenties that I was diagnosed with depression. And

735
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 1: then it wasn't until kind of a decade later where

736
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: a psychiatrist rediagnosed me with bipolar and what he said

737
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 1: was bipolar iiO in particular is very often misdiagnosed as

738
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: depression because the hypermannic episodes are not as dangerous and

739
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: risky and reckless as a full blown mania manic episode.

740
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,240
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons they said that was because

741
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: of I guess, partly some of the things I'd achieved

742
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: in this level of high functioning that I had kind

743
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 1: of between these really bad lows. And so I guess

744
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: to your question, in my case and now with a

745
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: new more updated diagnos that seems to me more accurately

746
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 1: characterize my mood disorder and my mental illness, I think, yes,

747
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 1: it has kind of been not superpower, but I certainly

748
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:13,879
Speaker 1: have these these periods of very high energy and productivity,

749
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 1: and everything's just kind of elevated and maybe not euphoric,

750
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 1: but not far off. Everything just is easier and just flows,

751
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 1: just flows, and it just yeah, it's like, oh, this,

752
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: I guess, is what life's meant to feel like. And obviously,

753
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: now understanding bipolar a bit better and talking to my psychiatrist,

754
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: he said, yeah, it's a slightly more elevated mood than

755
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: what a baseline should be. And the dangers is that

756
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: obviously there's a cyclicality to it. So yeah, to your point,

757
00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: is it a superpower? Maybe there's elements of that with

758
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: bipolar two, where you do have these areas of these

759
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 1: periods of high functioning, productive, gregarious, and all these kind

760
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 1: of really positive traits, but it's kind of coupled with

761
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: this really shitty low period. So yeah, for me, that

762
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: the maybe not super but the biggest benefit I've found

763
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: from it, or the silver lining I really try and

764
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: hold on to, is by talking about it. And I

765
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: think for me, the only upside of mental illness is

766
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: kind of sharing your story and helping other people be

767
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: seen and heard and helping them navigate the shitty part

768
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 1: that they've been dealt in terms of mental illness. And

769
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 1: I like the quote, you know, we recover loudly, so

770
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 1: people don't stuffer quietly, And I think that's so important.

771
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 1: And I'm in a really unique position where I do

772
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: have a larger audience that I can communicate with, and

773
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 1: so I think there's a kind of social and moral

774
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 1: responsibility I have to try and use this to help others. Obviously,

775
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,240
Speaker 1: there's a fine line where that can transition to becoming

776
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,919
Speaker 1: to my own detriment, and I do have to put

777
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: in certain kind of guardrails and safeties and checks in that.

778
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: And one of the ones I had with the jests

779
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: Row interview was I had this outpouring of messages from

780
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:03,399
Speaker 1: people who it was. It was really heartwarming to hear

781
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 1: how many people it touched, but it was really heartbreaking

782
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: to hear how comment was for people either themselves or

783
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,440
Speaker 1: a loved one or someone within their close circle was

784
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: going through. And I did a story post where I

785
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: just said, I am reading everything that's being shared to me,

786
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: but I don't have the capacity to reply. And I

787
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 1: think you had a similar experience as well recently about

788
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: a year ago, wasn't it with the pregnancy loss, And

789
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: I remember you did a very similar thing where you

790
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 1: shared I don't know if you replied to some of

791
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: the messages, but my recollection is you shared a similar

792
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: sentiment where it was I am reading them, I just

793
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: can't because there's thousands.

794
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 3: And more than you ever expect.

795
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I've kind of waffled in circles a little bit.

796
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's I guess I see that as kind

797
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: of the upside to it, and side I think it's

798
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 1: it's a responsibility I have, and it's one that I'm

799
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 1: very glad that I can do what I do. In

800
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: talking about and hopefully destigmatizing. Like you said, there's these

801
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 1: sort of socially acceptable mental illnesses. Yeah, and so hopefully

802
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: you know, bipolar and some of these other ones, schizophrenia,

803
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: borderline personality disorder. There's a lot of these these ones.

804
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: Wheople are oh whoawn. Yeah, it's a bit too much.

805
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: You've overshared here, and it's like, well, no, this is

806
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 1: these are all under the umbrella of mental illness. Yeah,

807
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: and we should be comfortable talking about them and understanding

808
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: them and not ostracizing people who are going through whatever

809
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: mental illness they're going through. And so I think there's

810
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 1: been huge strides with that understanding around depression and anxiety,

811
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 1: but there's still more work to be done with basically

812
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 1: anything beyond those two.

813
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I also think even just the fact that

814
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: neurodivergence is a word now that we're familiar with and

815
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 2: that people use and understand, it's all the conversations are

816
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 2: going in the right direction, which is amazing, But it's

817
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,240
Speaker 2: still interesting that there is so much Like it's funny

818
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 2: you and I have mentioned many times the word mical

819
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 2: imbalance in the brain and just accepting that it's not

820
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,399
Speaker 2: it's not something you can try harder with so when

821
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 2: people are sort of I've always I think the thing

822
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 2: that frustrates me the most is that anxiety and depression

823
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 2: are both major misnomers.

824
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 3: In my mind.

825
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 2: I think that anxiety makes you think of anxiousness, and

826
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 2: depression makes you think of sadness. Yes, and anxiousness and

827
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:27,360
Speaker 2: sadness are normal emotions in a healthy mind's spectrum of day.

828
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 3: To day feeling.

829
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,399
Speaker 2: Anxiety isn't just feeling anxious, so you can't just say,

830
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 2: calm down, the world is fine, it's going to go away.

831
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 2: And depression is not just feeling sad, so you can't

832
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 2: just say go be happy, to get a massage, eats

833
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 2: an ice cream, you know, cheer up it like suck

834
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 2: it up and.

835
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 1: Saying that getting an ice cream always does help in

836
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 1: your case.

837
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 3: Casina is a love like yeah, that's it.

838
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 2: But I actually remember one time I was having a

839
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 2: really shitty down time and you uber eatst me a

840
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 2: curton of messina, and I was like, this guy, I

841
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 2: knows where it's at.

842
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: I've done this for yeah, I got random acts of

843
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: ice cream. I've done this with a few people where

844
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: they'll say they're having a bit of a rough trot. Yeah,

845
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,359
Speaker 1: and I organize it. Sometimes I've sent it and they're

846
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: not home and so I'm like, well, there's going to

847
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 1: be a melted puddle of ice.

848
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 3: I will go and pick it up and I'll eat

849
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 3: it for you.

850
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to go. They drop it off and

851
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 1: then I go to their house to pick it out.

852
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,799
Speaker 1: But yeah, I've done it with Yeah, it's something. It's

853
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,839
Speaker 1: it's not it's not a huge gesture, but I think

854
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,399
Speaker 1: it's almost the fact that, yeah, kind of the it's

855
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: not necessarily ice cream, right, it's the fact that it's

856
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 1: a gift, it's a thought. So yes, no, I'm glad

857
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 1: I could give you a random act of ice cream.

858
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 3: It was. It was glorious and the flavors are amazing.

859
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:41,800
Speaker 3: But yeah, it was the thought.

860
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 2: And I think it's hard that even my own understanding

861
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 2: of both those conditions before I was in probably the

862
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:52,879
Speaker 2: worst phase with both of them I had been in,

863
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 2: was thinking that those things would help me. And then

864
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 2: you get to the stage and one thing that was

865
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,359
Speaker 2: really interesting you said in Jess's interview. And I don't

866
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 2: want to repeat to much because there's so much other

867
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 2: stuff I want to ask you, Like UFOs I mean, dude,

868
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 2: I have to get there eventually. But on a more

869
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 2: serious note, you said something in that interview and I've

870
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:09,760
Speaker 2: heard you also say it a couple of times about

871
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 2: how and I will put a trigger warning at the

872
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 2: start of this episode that your darkest moment was in

873
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one where you did try and end your life,

874
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 2: which is just before I met you, and again makes

875
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 2: me just it pulls on my heart so much thinking

876
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 2: that someone with as much in their life, who has

877
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 2: as much going for them as you, could feel like that.

878
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 2: I misunderstood it before hearing people like you put it

879
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 2: in these words. People often say, look, it's really selfish

880
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 2: to do that, to take yourself out of the equation

881
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 2: and think not think about the people you're leaving behind,

882
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 2: which I think is a huge misinterpretation of.

883
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 3: What that really is. But also that it's not that

884
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 3: you actually don't want to exist anymore.

885
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 2: It's just that you want the feeling that you're feeling

886
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 2: to stop, and that is the side effect. The only

887
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 2: way you can do that make the pain stop is

888
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 2: to not exist. It's not that you actively sit there

889
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 2: going idealizing not existing. It's just you want the pain

890
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 2: to stop and I didn't understand that. I was like,

891
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 2: I just thought you were sad, and you just kept

892
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 2: crying and crying and crying, and then eventually you know.

893
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 2: And I just think it's so misunderstood how a depression

894
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 2: and anxiety actually manifest for people. And again, it's like,

895
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,240
Speaker 2: anxiety isn't fear. I'm not sitting there necessarily even worried

896
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 2: at all. It's sometimes physiological. I think I'm having a

897
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 2: heart attack. I don't think I'm emotional about anything, and

898
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,040
Speaker 2: I don't think people understand that. So how do they

899
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 2: manifest for you? In a sort of I don't know,

900
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 2: it sounds silly, but like in a practical sense.

901
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, so for a dump, jump for a dump before

902
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,919
Speaker 1: I jump too deeply that Yeah. I think I share

903
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: a similar frustration to you in that I think anxiety

904
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 1: and depression are used as substitutes for being anxious or

905
00:46:56,040 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: feeling depressed or feeling sad. And I find that and

906
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 1: this is a fine line because you've got to be

907
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: careful not to be gatekeeping, but I do find it

908
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 1: frustrating some of the language used, in particular on social media,

909
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 1: where people talk about these things like oh, I was anxious,

910
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 1: I was you know I had anxiety and you didn't

911
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,439
Speaker 1: had it. You've got it or you don't, And that

912
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: language is really damaging because it's spoken like it's something

913
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 1: that you can fix, like I know did meditation psychologists

914
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:36,240
Speaker 1: and nun I don't have anxiety, or I did this that, meditation, yoga,

915
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,720
Speaker 1: and I'm not depressed anymore. And people who have anxiety

916
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 1: impression will see that and hear that and feel what's

917
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 1: wrong with me? Why can't I think my way out

918
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 1: of it like they.

919
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,399
Speaker 3: Did, or fix it or.

920
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 1: Fix it, And it's not something that is fixed, it's

921
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: something that's managed. And so I think it's dangerous language

922
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 1: that's used, I think often by people where they're substitute

923
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: and anxiety depression for these things that are like you

924
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 1: said that, they're temporary emotions. That all of our motions

925
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 1: are designed to be important for us. We have a

926
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,399
Speaker 1: whole spectrum of emotions and you should be experiencing them

927
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 1: all at some to some degree, and being anxious and

928
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: being sad are emotions, but there's a very significant difference

929
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 1: to mental disorders like anxiety and depression. So it's I

930
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: haven't figured out the best way to talk about that specifically.

931
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: Because it does sound a bit gatekeepery, right, Yeah, and

932
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 1: so it's really important to say it's not that. It's

933
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: just about being very very clear with the language that's

934
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: used so as to not create a bigger problem for

935
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 1: people because they see people fixing it and thinking their

936
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,280
Speaker 1: way out of it or doing these things. And so anyway,

937
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:46,240
Speaker 1: that was just on the side.

938
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 2: What was the origination, It was how it manifests, because

939
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 2: I think the conflation of regular emotions versus the mental illness,

940
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,840
Speaker 2: the fact that you can have anxiety without being anxious

941
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,359
Speaker 2: and you can have depression without being sad, I think

942
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 2: that's confusing. And also the fact that a lot of

943
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 2: the conversations on mental health focus on what you can

944
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 2: do as the sufferer to manage it, but not a

945
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 2: lot addresses what's helpful to receive. So for friends who

946
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 2: are listening, how.

947
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 3: Do they look after you?

948
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,240
Speaker 2: Because you do sometimes think I'll just get you about

949
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 2: your for a massage, and like that is lovely, it's

950
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 2: a beautiful gesture. But sometimes that's Yeah, it's not a

951
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 2: thing you're fixing.

952
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 3: It's just a.

953
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 2: Condition that's ongoing that you're holding someone through. And I

954
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 2: think people often feel really helpless of how to support people.

955
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 2: And like even Kann and I we have like Matt

956
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 2: traffic light signals kind of thing of like if we

957
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:43,879
Speaker 2: think that you need extra check ins, like we might

958
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 2: message each other and say, I think he's having a

959
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 2: hard time, let's both trying to walk this week or

960
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:51,239
Speaker 2: something like not in a like let's manage mad. But

961
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 2: I like that's our way of being like we love

962
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 2: you and so, and you might not reach out because

963
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 2: that's not what you can do in that time. But

964
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 2: it's hard to know that unless you know how something's

965
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 2: manifesting for you.

966
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's beautiful. I do love I love you too,

967
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:13,280
Speaker 1: I love Khn, I love an Abby too, and Abby

968
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:17,439
Speaker 1: I love Abby as well. And yeah, I think there

969
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: is a yeah, you do want to check in with people.

970
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 1: I certainly know for me, probably more so with when

971
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:32,479
Speaker 1: I'm going through a depressed episode, when when the mood

972
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 1: drops and everything becomes quite hopeless, I do become very reclusive.

973
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,720
Speaker 1: It's really hard to reach out. I think that's another

974
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: thing that often is really hard to understand for people

975
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: who don't have kind of mental or mood disorders or

976
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:54,040
Speaker 1: mentally illness. It's like just reach out, just message, and

977
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: that's like everest when you're in a hole, it's really

978
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: hard to do. There's a lot of No matter what

979
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 1: people say about loving you, there's still this shame and

980
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 1: fear of judgment. And there is no As a scientist,

981
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 1: there is no evidence of anyone that loves me, my family,

982
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 1: my friends from ever showing any sort.

983
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 3: Of judgment data match data science.

984
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 1: There is no, and so should be saying there's no

985
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 1: evidence of that whatsoever. Stopped being a shit scientist.

986
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:32,760
Speaker 3: You are being a shit austro business.

987
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 1: Do your job, but your brain becomes so uncooperative in

988
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: those moments. And so yeah, I think, yeah, that the

989
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: check ins are really important. I know they certainly are

990
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: for me, and I imagine probably that's quite universal. It's

991
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 1: the challenges. Like you said, you and can't can contact

992
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:54,439
Speaker 1: each other when you get to read that something might

993
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 1: be off. But it's really hard to know sometimes when

994
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: something's off, and so I try to One of the

995
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:02,359
Speaker 1: things I try to do is when I'm feeling good

996
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 1: and it's easy to talk to people, I try to

997
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 1: be fairly you know, proactive messaging and organizing things so

998
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 1: that when that drops off, it's almost like okay, the

999
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 1: fact that I can't find the motivation and strength to

1000
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: reach out, that is a signal in itself to people,

1001
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 1: because it's like, hang on, haven't heard from Matt for

1002
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:23,240
Speaker 1: a while. He's usually quite good at contacting and checking

1003
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: in with with you know themselves, or organizing grabbing coffees

1004
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,440
Speaker 1: or dinners or whatever. And so I think that's been

1005
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 1: a really useful thing for me because the fact that

1006
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 1: I'm not reaching out is the signal itself. Is not

1007
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 1: reaching out is the reaching out that works, right, So

1008
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:41,800
Speaker 1: that's kind of a strategy I f aren't really useful,

1009
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: but it's hard to know because everyone finds different strategies

1010
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 1: useful for them, and so it's it's there's a I

1011
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 1: guess a frustrating part with It's the same as when

1012
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,760
Speaker 1: trying to get the right in medication or cocktail of medication.

1013
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 1: It's there's so much variance in how different medications affect people,

1014
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 1: both in its efficacy and also in its side effects,

1015
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 1: and so trying to find the right thing for you

1016
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: there is an element of trial and error. There's things

1017
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 1: about a dozen of so different antidepressants. How do you

1018
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 1: know which ones for you? They will typically prescribed? Probably

1019
00:53:14,840 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 1: the one that has universally the lower side effects and

1020
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 1: then go from there. And I think similar with strategies

1021
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 1: you're kind of developing, Okay, this might work. This is

1022
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 1: something you've either discussed with someone else or with your

1023
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: psychologists or psychiatrist or whatever your medical professional that you're

1024
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: working with to tackle these things. But then you know

1025
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: when you execute that strategy didn't work well enough. And

1026
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 1: so it's like, all right, let's modify, let's evolve, let's

1027
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: try and get it right. And so I think over

1028
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: the period of several years, I've got some strategies that

1029
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 1: seem to be more effective than what I've had two, three,

1030
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 1: five years ago. But it's a constant learning experience, I think,

1031
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 1: and a constant battle trying to you know, trying to

1032
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 1: alt smart you get yeah, exactly. So it's yeah, it's tough.

1033
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 2: I think that was the frustration I had was my

1034
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 2: brain is maybe my best weapon, and yet like how

1035
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 2: logically is it internally of its own accord working against me?

1036
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 2: It just is It was so frustrating for like a

1037
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 2: high functioning person to be like, this is actually delaying

1038
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 2: things I want to do. It's delaying like you know,

1039
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,840
Speaker 2: studying or having friendships or starting businesses or whatever. And

1040
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 2: what you said is just accepting that it's not something

1041
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 2: that gets fixed, it's something that gets managed. I love

1042
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 2: watching you because you actively show and share that you

1043
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 2: are managing it. You share when you're having a shitty time,

1044
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 2: and then that you can get back to having good times,

1045
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 2: and then you might go back to having shitty times.

1046
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,840
Speaker 2: And I will include the link to Jess's episode because

1047
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 2: I think it's I can't top that it was. You

1048
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 2: were both just in the most perfect, vulnerable, supported, beautiful

1049
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 2: space to share so much detail on that area. But

1050
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 2: here I want to just labor the point that you

1051
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 2: can manage it, and with great gaps in your productivity

1052
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 2: or happiness or ability to function how you want to,

1053
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:12,720
Speaker 2: you have still managed to have an incredibly successful career.

1054
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 2: And like if you look at Matt's LinkedIn the Bachelor,

1055
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 2: is not even a blip, Like it is literally, like sure,

1056
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 2: a huge chapter and there's a big before and after

1057
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 2: in terms of the platform you have and big emotional

1058
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 2: things that happened, But it's a blip compared to all

1059
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:28,720
Speaker 2: the other things you've done. And it would be remissive

1060
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 2: me not to spend I have use so much of

1061
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 2: our time on just a waffling, but not to spend

1062
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,840
Speaker 2: time like people who interview you. I'm like, you have

1063
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 2: an astrophysicist, and you haven't asked about aliens.

1064
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 3: You have not literally.

1065
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 2: Asked about Elon Musk just landing something like how have

1066
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 2: you not asked about that stuff? Because it's such a

1067
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 2: waste of your challenge and not asking those questions. So

1068
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 2: I have to move on to that. But I do like,

1069
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 2: thank you for always being so vulnerable and sharing, because

1070
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 2: you are someone that people probably expect that the least

1071
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 2: from you fit this mold of yeah, confident, Gregary is capable, successful,

1072
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 2: and it's a constant battle behind the scenes, but you

1073
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 2: do do an amazing job at sharing that you And

1074
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 2: speaking of space Uranus Khan.

1075
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 3: He knew I was going to drop it in there

1076
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:18,960
Speaker 3: at some point, just before we.

1077
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:22,400
Speaker 2: Do move on to aliens and UFOs which are actually

1078
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 2: called UAPs. Now in front of the austrophysicist, I have

1079
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 2: to get the term.

1080
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: Two. People were thinking that UFOs two kind.

1081
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 2: Of It's interesting that one of the things you do

1082
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 2: still face which is reductive, which is really annoying, is

1083
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,359
Speaker 2: that when you're as a friend it's really annoying when

1084
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 2: your book came out, your first book, which is all

1085
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:48,840
Speaker 2: about doctor Matt Agnew's Guide to Space, so hella intelligent, right.

1086
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 3: Intelligence. So there is a literal.

1087
00:56:53,560 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 2: Article announcing your book that was Matt Agnew's exciting news

1088
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 2: after denying Khannong, I was like, is that really how

1089
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 2: you are announcing an astrophysicist new book on space, as

1090
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 2: if it's like the next dude you're dating in your

1091
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 2: non literal, non homosexual life. People are deciding that you've

1092
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 2: denied khn not that you actually aren't in a relationship

1093
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 2: because you are heterosexual, but you denied him. So said no, like,

1094
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 2: your news is not a book, it's some other guy.

1095
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,880
Speaker 2: I was so enraged when I saw that, not in rage,

1096
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 2: but just like, yeah, totally baffled. But we have already

1097
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:37,760
Speaker 2: covered this, so I don't want to spend time on

1098
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 2: it again, except that I get at least once a week,

1099
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:42,480
Speaker 2: like it's almost like Gemini Gate. It comes up in

1100
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 2: my DMS gate once a week when I'm Matt and

1101
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 2: Karn gonna come out as a couple. Can you please

1102
00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:55,960
Speaker 2: clarify the fact that masculine affection is okay within a

1103
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 2: heterosexual males life.

1104
00:57:58,040 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 1: Yes, I could confirm that.

1105
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:03,280
Speaker 2: Yes, can you, as a scientist confirm or deny the science?

1106
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 1: Male masculine affection is okay, completely normal. I show affection

1107
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 1: to everyone in my life, women, men, non binary, whatever.

1108
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:19,440
Speaker 1: I also am very liberal with saying love you to people.

1109
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 1: I finish a lot of phone calls with saying that

1110
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 1: I've almost let us slip out. In professional I'm also

1111
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:30,640
Speaker 1: very liberal with yeah. I'm also very liberal with my

1112
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:33,440
Speaker 1: use of exes, which sometimes got me in trouble because you.

1113
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:33,919
Speaker 3: Are an exit.

1114
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:36,880
Speaker 2: I'm an exit because I think it's passive aggressive if

1115
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 2: you don't include an X. I'm like, is Madam going on?

1116
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's about signal. It's so. Yeah. I'm very affectionate,

1117
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 1: and I think it's important that men are affectionate both

1118
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 1: with women and with other men, because it's this bizarre,

1119
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 1: I mean toxic masculinely. I feel like the terms overuse

1120
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 1: it's diminished some of its impact, but it is really

1121
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 1: toxic to suggest that men don't want to both give

1122
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 1: and receive affection platonically or romantically whatever. And I always

1123
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:12,400
Speaker 1: bring it up with such social creatures like millions of

1124
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 1: years of evolution has led us to being tremendously social creatures,

1125
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 1: and so to deny that biological imperative to receive and

1126
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:31,560
Speaker 1: give affection is bizarre and just stupid and unhelpful.

1127
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 2: Broadly speaking, people have so much of a hard time

1128
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 2: about your relationship struggling.

1129
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 1: We spoke about it on a previous podcast, and I mean,

1130
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 1: it's a very art exciting kind of answer. No, we're

1131
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 1: not a couple. We're just very good friends who have

1132
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 1: no problem showing physical affection to one another. And it

1133
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 1: still comes out. And I've had people say to me, oh,

1134
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 1: because you're gay, aren't you.

1135
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 3: I know what to say to that.

1136
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 1: I'm actually Gemini and I'm very comfortable with my sexuality.

1137
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 1: I don't find it offensive or anything like that. But

1138
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 1: I just don't know where it's come from, because we've

1139
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 1: very clearly said we're not a couple. I've had people

1140
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 1: who I remember I was organizing a date with someone

1141
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 1: and this is last year, and she texted me before

1142
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 1: a date and said, oh, are you bisexual? And I

1143
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 1: said no, what was that? And she goes, because I

1144
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 1: was with a friend and or with someone, They go, oh, yeah,

1145
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 1: Matt Agney, he's bisexual. And so there's this idea that's

1146
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 1: still permeating within the public discourse that I'm gay or bisexual,

1147
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. I'm not offended of it or anything

1148
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:55,000
Speaker 1: like that. And I kind of I don't feel compelled

1149
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 1: to deny it other than I don't want to be

1150
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 1: accused of queer baiting or anything like that. But at

1151
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 1: the same time, I kind of I was torn about

1152
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: whether to deny it, because for me it doesn't it

1153
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. I'm heterosexual. I couldn't care less. But I

1154
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:11,280
Speaker 1: don't want to create this pressure where someone is gay

1155
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:13,919
Speaker 1: that someone can just ask publicly yeah, and.

1156
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 3: Say you'll get point to you someone's.

1157
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:19,880
Speaker 1: Gay, that then they get forced to come out when

1158
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:23,919
Speaker 1: they're not ready. It's I imagine, obviously I can't relate,

1159
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 1: but I imagine that's a tremendously personal and significant moment

1160
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 1: for someone to come out. And I didn't want to

1161
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 1: contribute to that sort of idea that it's okay to

1162
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 1: ask someone publicly you're gay or you're bisexual, and I

1163
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 1: should reply and give some sort of definitive answer. And

1164
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 1: so I kind of had this, you know, these battling

1165
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 1: things where it's like, well, I'm not queer bating, so

1166
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 1: I need to confirm it. But also I don't want

1167
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 1: to create this situation where people who are queer. I'm

1168
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 1: kind of perpetuating this idea. So I mean by talking

1169
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 1: about it on the podcast with Khan, I let him

1170
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:02,520
Speaker 1: kind of direct how much we should say. Yeah, I

1171
01:02:02,560 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 1: kind of want to be very clear that you don't

1172
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:09,920
Speaker 1: have the right to ask someone their sexuality. For me,

1173
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 1: it's it doesn't matter, but for someone who might be queer,

1174
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 1: it's it's you're you're robbing them of a very emotional

1175
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 1: and significant moment in their lives, and you shouldn't be

1176
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 1: putting undue pressure on someone to rush that moment. So

1177
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 1: I can't even remember what my what was the question here?

1178
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:31,360
Speaker 1: But I think I'm just making it very clear that

1179
01:02:31,440 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 1: line of question that people keep putting to me. I

1180
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 1: don't care.

1181
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:39,280
Speaker 2: To me, I'm not the boss of them. What do

1182
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,440
Speaker 2: you mean, I'm not their manager, their manager.

1183
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 1: The manager it could be so yeah, I think, yeah,

1184
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 1: I don't care people ask me. But but I think

1185
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:54,959
Speaker 1: it's very important that the public knows that that's that's

1186
01:02:55,120 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 1: a inappropriate line of questioning, because you're putting pressure unfair

1187
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:02,600
Speaker 1: on someone who they need to do it when they're ready.

1188
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just still can't believe that the articles that

1189
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 2: have come out about it, like it's front page New.

1190
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 1: There was still one can't shared it. We went to

1191
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 1: was it the ballet we went to? There was about

1192
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 1: six or seven of us who went to the ballet,

1193
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 1: and so a bunch of us got photos on the

1194
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:22,080
Speaker 1: red car because we thought, oh, let's get some nice

1195
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,480
Speaker 1: photos together that would be cute. Anyway, we got one

1196
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 1: photo together. I had photos with several of my friends,

1197
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 1: some women. I should highlight. The article that came out

1198
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:35,400
Speaker 1: was Matt goes to ballet after cuddling KHN And it

1199
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 1: was a photo of us from like a movie night,

1200
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 1: like three months prior. Even stories kn't have done, where

1201
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 1: we're both lying on the car and that was the photo.

1202
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:47,240
Speaker 1: And it was like you went in the article and

1203
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 1: then halfway down it's got a photo of me with

1204
01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:50,600
Speaker 1: KRN and then a photo of me with some other people.

1205
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 1: But it's just ridiculous angles and like trying to force

1206
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:57,720
Speaker 1: this narrative and I mean, I mean can't find it

1207
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 1: amusing now. And yeah, certainly not going to make us

1208
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:03,360
Speaker 1: change how we behave and how we live out our friendship.

1209
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 3: So yes, fascinating, it's so nice.

1210
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 1: It's baffling.

1211
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 2: But I just contributed to that because that frustrates me

1212
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 2: so much because I should be moving on to space,

1213
01:04:12,960 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 2: and I've used time on that question, but I just

1214
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 2: wanted to That's okay, cover it. So I'm going to

1215
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 2: turn to fast fire now in the world of intellectual

1216
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 2: pursuits and you know, aliens and all that fun stuff.

1217
01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 1: Fast Fire.

1218
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 2: I know fast fire because I've just realized how much

1219
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 2: time I've used on everything else. And I started the

1220
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 2: conversation saying, I want to talk about your astrophysics, and

1221
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:36,000
Speaker 2: then fifty five minutes in, I'm like, Matt, the astrophysicists,

1222
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 2: this is what happens when you into your interview. I know,

1223
01:04:40,200 --> 01:04:44,760
Speaker 2: I'm dumb, too excited. Okay, so very quickly, can you

1224
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:48,400
Speaker 2: explain to a lay person who doesn't actually know what

1225
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:49,360
Speaker 2: astrophysics is?

1226
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 3: What is it?

1227
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:55,880
Speaker 1: It's the study of astrophysics. I mean, it's all in

1228
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:58,800
Speaker 1: the name. It's the study of the physics that makes

1229
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:02,360
Speaker 1: up the universe, and so that can be on smaller scales. So,

1230
01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 1: like my research was around planets specifically, I was looking

1231
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 1: at the dynamics of planets. So when planets are in

1232
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:11,280
Speaker 1: orbit around a star, what sort of interesting things can

1233
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 1: happen when you've got two planet systems and when you

1234
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:15,680
Speaker 1: have There was a show called three Body Problem that

1235
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 1: came out on Netflix. I wasn't a fan of the show,

1236
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 1: but it highlighted three body problem is a common problem

1237
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:23,000
Speaker 1: in both maths and physics because it's unstable when you've

1238
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 1: got three bodies bound gravitationally. Anyway, I don't want to

1239
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:27,760
Speaker 1: get too far into the weeds, but you can have

1240
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 1: the smaller scale, which is what I did, and I

1241
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 1: say smaller in the universe and astrophysics context, planets are

1242
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:39,400
Speaker 1: still massive versus the larger scale where you're looking at

1243
01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 1: the structure of the universe itself. And so that's kind

1244
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 1: of what you call cosmology, the structure, large scale structure

1245
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 1: of the universe, but also the origins and ultimate fate

1246
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:52,479
Speaker 1: of the universe, and cosmology is straight over my head.

1247
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:57,800
Speaker 1: Even kind of smaller that things like classifying galaxies and

1248
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:01,400
Speaker 1: the what's called the more phology of galaxies, so how

1249
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 1: you categorize them and the evolution of galaxies. Even that,

1250
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:07,640
Speaker 1: while I do my PhD, so I'm doing an astrophysics PhD.

1251
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:11,640
Speaker 1: I could talk to another astrophysicist doing that research. It

1252
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:16,240
Speaker 1: was like speaking in Russian saying, so's there's a huge

1253
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 1: breadth to astrophysics because the physics of space varies, not varies,

1254
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 1: still is governed by the same mathematics, but the physics

1255
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:29,880
Speaker 1: when you're looking at something smaller like planets, is a

1256
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:32,440
Speaker 1: different set of physics than when you're considering things on

1257
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:33,240
Speaker 1: the larger scale.

1258
01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:38,440
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I love that.

1259
01:06:38,600 --> 01:06:39,160
Speaker 1: I love this.

1260
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:41,480
Speaker 2: I really seriously wish we could do a whole episode

1261
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:42,720
Speaker 2: just on the astrophysics.

1262
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:43,919
Speaker 3: Did we land on the Moon?

1263
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely?

1264
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:47,200
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, what do you think of the footage of

1265
01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:48,120
Speaker 3: the flags and stuff?

1266
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 2: Like?

1267
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:50,480
Speaker 3: What the conspiracy theorist who are like, there's wound on

1268
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 3: the planet?

1269
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:53,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the footage of the flag is literally when

1270
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:58,440
Speaker 1: they planted the flag, essentially you're going to have a

1271
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:01,080
Speaker 1: bit of vibration in there, and without air, you've got

1272
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:04,040
Speaker 1: nothing to damp that vibration. So when you slam a

1273
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:06,800
Speaker 1: thing into the ground, like a flag, when you when

1274
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:10,720
Speaker 1: you what do you even call it? When you plant it?

1275
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 1: But when you put it in the ground.

1276
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:18,320
Speaker 2: There's a really fancy there's a fancy word for the Yeah, whatever,

1277
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:19,800
Speaker 2: you're going to get some.

1278
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:26,400
Speaker 1: Vibration, Yeah, exactly, just sitting here like so, yeah, you

1279
01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:28,880
Speaker 1: get some vibration, and that's what's what's happening there, because

1280
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:31,680
Speaker 1: there's no way to stop it. On Earth, vibrations will

1281
01:07:32,120 --> 01:07:34,920
Speaker 1: eventually peter out because you've got things that are slowing

1282
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:38,640
Speaker 1: it down, typically air resistance, friction, depending on the particular

1283
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:42,600
Speaker 1: scenario you're looking at, but you don't have that in space.

1284
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:45,440
Speaker 1: You've got a little bit of friction where the flagpole

1285
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:48,000
Speaker 1: meets the ground, so eventually that will dampen it down

1286
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:50,080
Speaker 1: to nothing, but it will take a lot longer than

1287
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:53,960
Speaker 1: if you have air resistance. The other thing with suggesting

1288
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:57,440
Speaker 1: that the landing of the Moon didn't happen, I think

1289
01:07:57,480 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 1: one of the most frustrating parts that is it's quite

1290
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:06,320
Speaker 1: disrespectful thing to assert because people died trying to from

1291
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 1: the missions from kind of starting from Mercury all the

1292
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:11,000
Speaker 1: way through to Apollo, which Mercury was the very early

1293
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 1: space missions, but it was all part of getting towards

1294
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:16,559
Speaker 1: it was all part of the space race, and people died,

1295
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:20,280
Speaker 1: and so to suggest that it didn't happen is such

1296
01:08:20,280 --> 01:08:24,040
Speaker 1: a disrespect to these trailblazers. Yeah, the whole body of

1297
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 1: science that that happened, all the engineers and scientists that

1298
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:30,360
Speaker 1: were behind the scenes working on these things. But yeah,

1299
01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:35,200
Speaker 1: the kind of the trailblazers, the cowboys that actually did

1300
01:08:35,240 --> 01:08:38,840
Speaker 1: the kind of outrageous things. Yeah, some of them died

1301
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:44,000
Speaker 1: and so yeah, I find it quite a disrespectful assertion,

1302
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:46,080
Speaker 1: and people make it and there's actually funny. I remember

1303
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:47,920
Speaker 1: seeing this video. I'll see how I can find it

1304
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:49,320
Speaker 1: and send them to you later. But it's basically this

1305
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:53,400
Speaker 1: guy who's like a seasoned not a director, but like

1306
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 1: a filmographer or something like that, and he's going through

1307
01:08:56,400 --> 01:09:00,559
Speaker 1: and weirdly, the technology for recording video at the time

1308
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:05,080
Speaker 1: was not sufficient to create the footage that they actually

1309
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:07,840
Speaker 1: recorded using. Because people are like, oh, Stanley Kubrick did

1310
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:11,200
Speaker 1: a space o to see he created these fake landing

1311
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:14,720
Speaker 1: imagery of videos, and this guy filmographer just highlights that.

1312
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:15,080
Speaker 2: Know that.

1313
01:09:15,320 --> 01:09:17,879
Speaker 1: People are kind of confused now because it's such great CGI.

1314
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, but the tech I couldn't have fake

1315
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 2: things like creating the movement of the astronauts and the

1316
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:25,800
Speaker 2: slow motion movement.

1317
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:26,040
Speaker 1: And stuff like that.

1318
01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:27,200
Speaker 3: They're like, it wasn't there.

1319
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:29,600
Speaker 1: It wasn't there. So weirdly, we had the tech to

1320
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:32,200
Speaker 1: get to the moon and record twenty four frame for

1321
01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:35,160
Speaker 1: a second, you know, really low black and white resolution

1322
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:40,040
Speaker 1: image video, but to create that artificially in a studio,

1323
01:09:40,280 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 1: the technology wasn't there. Wow, which is really fascinating. So

1324
01:09:43,360 --> 01:09:46,080
Speaker 1: there's actually, yeah, one hundred percent happened. Yeah, and yeah,

1325
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:49,880
Speaker 1: there's there's numerous ways to prove that, but yeah, that

1326
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:53,120
Speaker 1: from a film technology perspective is a really unique way

1327
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:54,639
Speaker 1: of doing that, and I find it quite fascinating.

1328
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:56,800
Speaker 3: I like that, Ye aliens in.

1329
01:09:56,880 --> 01:10:00,120
Speaker 1: UFOs UFOs nonsense.

1330
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:05,599
Speaker 2: Like big spinning discs with like.

1331
01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:05,559
Speaker 1: Stealing cows and.

1332
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:13,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, stealing why the cows know none of us have

1333
01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:14,080
Speaker 2: cows in our bacura.

1334
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:15,960
Speaker 1: No. I mean the thing I always say with with

1335
01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:18,240
Speaker 1: you know when when the discussion around you have both

1336
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:20,800
Speaker 1: and your EPs crash crash land and all these kind

1337
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:24,960
Speaker 1: of stuff, or even just their scene. A sufficiently advanced

1338
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:27,960
Speaker 1: alien civilization that can create this sort of technology to

1339
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:31,840
Speaker 1: traverse the huge chasms between worlds, makes it all the

1340
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 1: way to Earth and then crashes. It makes no sense,

1341
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:40,040
Speaker 1: like the it's not it's snuck up on them, surprise,

1342
01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:41,639
Speaker 1: And they always crash in the US.

1343
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:46,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, always in Nevada, So that's always around a certain

1344
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:47,759
Speaker 2: military complex.

1345
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:50,120
Speaker 1: Correct. But then you know, even if they don't crash,

1346
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:52,599
Speaker 1: the idea that they have this brilliant technology to get

1347
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:54,920
Speaker 1: to Earth and then they just kind of forget that

1348
01:10:54,920 --> 01:11:01,439
Speaker 1: they're there and get seen circle forgot to turn on

1349
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:06,920
Speaker 1: the cloaking devices. Yeah, the UFO thing nonsense. Has or

1350
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:10,120
Speaker 1: have aliens ever visited Earth? Who would know? Like it's

1351
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:14,799
Speaker 1: been around four and a half billion years generously recorded history.

1352
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 1: You could argue, you know, ten thousand civilizations, ten thousand,

1353
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:22,800
Speaker 1: extend that to sixty or eighty thousand. If First Nations

1354
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:26,679
Speaker 1: Australians recorded the first trend was recorded stuff. But even

1355
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:29,719
Speaker 1: run up to one hundred thousand, one hundred thousand schemes

1356
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:31,840
Speaker 1: four and a half billion years, you know, it's blink

1357
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 1: of an eye. So could aliens have come before First

1358
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:37,839
Speaker 1: Nations Australians were recording stuff?

1359
01:11:38,600 --> 01:11:39,560
Speaker 3: Maybe?

1360
01:11:39,920 --> 01:11:43,519
Speaker 1: I do believe in aliens, but not in the little

1361
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:48,120
Speaker 1: green mense. And I talk about this a little bit

1362
01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:50,280
Speaker 1: in my book about there's even places in our own

1363
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:52,880
Speaker 1: soul system where it looks like we've got all the

1364
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:57,240
Speaker 1: right ingredients for life and so I can imagine if

1365
01:11:57,240 --> 01:11:59,600
Speaker 1: life is as simple as A plus B plus C

1366
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:03,720
Speaker 1: equals life, that being you know, water, energy, and nutrients.

1367
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:08,160
Speaker 1: Then if that is as simple as it is, I

1368
01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:11,000
Speaker 1: think in our lifetime we will find evidence of fossilized

1369
01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:15,680
Speaker 1: ancient fossilized life on Mars. If there's something more complex

1370
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:18,439
Speaker 1: to life and there requires some sort of secret source,

1371
01:12:19,320 --> 01:12:22,679
Speaker 1: then we won't find that because clearly there's some special

1372
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:25,040
Speaker 1: thing that happened here on Earth that won't have happened elsewhere.

1373
01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:27,799
Speaker 1: But if it is just as simple as the right ingredients,

1374
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:30,360
Speaker 1: then I think Mars would have had all the right ingredients.

1375
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:33,200
Speaker 1: And there's a few moons of Satin and Jupiter which

1376
01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:35,519
Speaker 1: looks like they also would have the right ingredients. It's

1377
01:12:35,640 --> 01:12:38,120
Speaker 1: much harder for us to actually explore those locations though,

1378
01:12:38,200 --> 01:12:44,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, I do think that life is potentially not

1379
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:48,120
Speaker 1: uncommon and that it is quite easy to kick off.

1380
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:50,719
Speaker 1: You just need the right things in the right place.

1381
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:54,200
Speaker 1: The idea of life evolving to be smart, being intelligent,

1382
01:12:54,439 --> 01:12:57,240
Speaker 1: advanced civilizations all that, I think that's tremendously rare, and

1383
01:12:57,280 --> 01:13:01,360
Speaker 1: if it does happen, happening over the same time period

1384
01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:05,240
Speaker 1: also yeah, as us, but also the same distance kind

1385
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:08,639
Speaker 1: of location, you know, whether it could actually we could

1386
01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:11,880
Speaker 1: cross paths or communicate, I think is much rarer.

1387
01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:14,120
Speaker 3: But what an eloquent answer.

1388
01:13:14,240 --> 01:13:15,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just wanted you.

1389
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:20,240
Speaker 2: To be like, yes, tiny green people in your home

1390
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:28,160
Speaker 2: under the bed. Yeah, yeah, like a plant, really.

1391
01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:28,360
Speaker 1: Really simplistic stuff.

1392
01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:32,479
Speaker 2: Yeah. I can't believe I've left so little time for

1393
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:35,400
Speaker 2: AI because that's what I really wanted to joke about,

1394
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:37,960
Speaker 2: but I didn't. Yeah, I mean this was bound to happen.

1395
01:13:38,040 --> 01:13:39,559
Speaker 2: We'll have to come back for a part two. But

1396
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:41,920
Speaker 2: you have just released an incredible book, and this one's

1397
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:44,760
Speaker 2: aimed to morant children, and it's called Is My Phone

1398
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:45,479
Speaker 2: Reading My Mind?

1399
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:49,040
Speaker 3: So that's I mean the question, what's what's the answer.

1400
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:53,400
Speaker 2: Is is how close is AI to like sentient robots

1401
01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:54,799
Speaker 2: who are going to take over the world?

1402
01:13:55,520 --> 01:13:58,559
Speaker 1: Okay, so two. I feel like it's two part.

1403
01:13:58,720 --> 01:14:02,879
Speaker 2: I'm asking it to literally con it's an entire master's degree.

1404
01:14:03,840 --> 01:14:06,559
Speaker 1: Is it reading our mind? Sort of, it's not listening

1405
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:10,400
Speaker 1: to us. But the idea of artificial intelligence and machine

1406
01:14:10,439 --> 01:14:12,479
Speaker 1: learning as it stands is sort of to try and

1407
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:14,839
Speaker 1: read your mind and predict what you like, what you dislike,

1408
01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:16,320
Speaker 1: what you want to see what you want to hear.

1409
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:18,599
Speaker 1: So you see that play out and things like Netflix,

1410
01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:22,559
Speaker 1: Thousands and thousands of things are available to watch on Netflix.

1411
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:25,680
Speaker 1: The AI tries to predict what you are thinking, what

1412
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:28,480
Speaker 1: you'll actually enjoy, and it serves those up as recommendations.

1413
01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:31,320
Speaker 1: So is it reading our mind? I go into much

1414
01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:33,600
Speaker 1: more detail in the book, but the answer is sort of,

1415
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:38,640
Speaker 1: I'm certainly trying to. And that can sound creepy, but

1416
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:41,679
Speaker 1: the idea that can it can tremendously enrich our lives

1417
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:45,000
Speaker 1: and make things easier and ideally outsource some of the

1418
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:48,479
Speaker 1: mental burden so that we have more time to ourselves

1419
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:51,200
Speaker 1: and more mental capacity for the things we actually enjoy

1420
01:14:51,240 --> 01:14:57,320
Speaker 1: and are passionate about, and largely that I imagine will be relationships, family, friends, children,

1421
01:14:57,760 --> 01:15:00,120
Speaker 1: in all of those when you think about way you

1422
01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:01,680
Speaker 1: want to spend your time, it's typically going to be

1423
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:07,280
Speaker 1: those things. So the second part was what's the second part? Oh? Yeah,

1424
01:15:07,760 --> 01:15:08,400
Speaker 1: how close.

1425
01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:09,639
Speaker 3: Are we to sentient robots?

1426
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:12,519
Speaker 2: So we are going to literally you do, a robot

1427
01:15:12,640 --> 01:15:15,639
Speaker 2: take over us and in humanity forever.

1428
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:18,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the problem you have with this is that

1429
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:23,840
Speaker 1: there's no agreed upon definition of sentience and consciousness. Yeah,

1430
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:29,200
Speaker 1: there's sort of kind of there's some definitions that sound right,

1431
01:15:29,400 --> 01:15:32,240
Speaker 1: but if you ask different scientists within these fields, they've

1432
01:15:32,240 --> 01:15:35,160
Speaker 1: probably all got slightly different variations on what it is.

1433
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:39,600
Speaker 1: And so trying to say has an artificial intelligence achieved

1434
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 1: sentience or consciousness is quite hard to say right now.

1435
01:15:43,000 --> 01:15:46,000
Speaker 1: Absolutely not, there's definitely not, just in the way that

1436
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:48,479
Speaker 1: large language models, which is what most people are currently

1437
01:15:48,479 --> 01:15:50,720
Speaker 1: thinking of when they think of AI. They think of

1438
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:56,439
Speaker 1: these llms like chat EBT, like perplexity, Claude lama, I

1439
01:15:56,479 --> 01:15:59,760
Speaker 1: think is metas one, and these are created to sort

1440
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:03,200
Speaker 1: of make human conversation, and the way they're built, it's

1441
01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:08,720
Speaker 1: very very clever, sophisticated word predictors, essentially tremendously complex, and

1442
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:10,240
Speaker 1: they are so good at what they do. They can

1443
01:16:10,280 --> 01:16:12,840
Speaker 1: mimic human conversation. But they're just trying to guess what's

1444
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:16,240
Speaker 1: probabilistically the next word I should say. When answering this.

1445
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:18,080
Speaker 3: Way, they're not doing it from feeling.

1446
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:20,400
Speaker 1: No correct And so some people argue, isn't that what

1447
01:16:20,439 --> 01:16:23,720
Speaker 1: the human brain does? And it's well not, maybe, but

1448
01:16:24,439 --> 01:16:26,960
Speaker 1: maybe not. We don't know we know what LM's how

1449
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:30,400
Speaker 1: they work, we don't know how the brain works. Did

1450
01:16:30,439 --> 01:16:33,200
Speaker 1: we just happen to create the same architecture that the

1451
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:35,639
Speaker 1: brain does. I'd be surprised if that was the case.

1452
01:16:36,160 --> 01:16:38,400
Speaker 1: But until we figure out exactly how the brain works,

1453
01:16:38,479 --> 01:16:41,480
Speaker 1: you can't rule it out. But I'd say that's very improbable.

1454
01:16:43,200 --> 01:16:45,720
Speaker 1: So how close are we to sentence and consciousness? I

1455
01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:48,920
Speaker 1: subscribe to the idea that I think there's a missing

1456
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:53,880
Speaker 1: piece to create sentence or consciousness. I think the architecture

1457
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaker 1: that governs large language models. You can keep scaling that,

1458
01:16:58,240 --> 01:17:00,960
Speaker 1: and that's what chat GPT is doing, it's or anthropics doing.

1459
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:03,320
Speaker 1: They're all just you know, I think, what's the one

1460
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:07,080
Speaker 1: GROC that Elon Musk made. They just build a facility

1461
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:09,519
Speaker 1: with one hundred thousand I think they're h one hundreds,

1462
01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:14,000
Speaker 1: which are these like GPUs or neural processing units that

1463
01:17:14,160 --> 01:17:18,479
Speaker 1: are designed to train and build really really complex lms.

1464
01:17:18,880 --> 01:17:21,479
Speaker 1: You can keep scaling and making them more sophisticated, but

1465
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:24,840
Speaker 1: all you're doing is scaling it. You're not fundamentally changing

1466
01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:26,519
Speaker 1: the framework. And so I think they're still a missing

1467
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 1: piece in terms of creating something that would be considered

1468
01:17:30,320 --> 01:17:33,040
Speaker 1: sentient or consciousness. But until we get to that point,

1469
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:36,320
Speaker 1: you can create something that is remarkably good at mimicking humans,

1470
01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:39,840
Speaker 1: and even I think now the new zero what's it

1471
01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:42,519
Speaker 1: called one, the latest chat GBT. They haven't released the

1472
01:17:42,560 --> 01:17:45,280
Speaker 1: full version, but you can use it the preview. They've

1473
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:48,320
Speaker 1: started trying to incorporate more reasoning and logic into their

1474
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:52,080
Speaker 1: answers as well, so they'll get really close to creating

1475
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:54,880
Speaker 1: very similar outputs to what a human would be able

1476
01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:57,479
Speaker 1: to do. But I think the framework is still missing

1477
01:17:57,479 --> 01:18:00,880
Speaker 1: something that would be considered sentient or conscious, and even

1478
01:18:00,880 --> 01:18:03,960
Speaker 1: the fact that like it's not if you don't prompt

1479
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:06,040
Speaker 1: chat GPT, it's not thinking, it's.

1480
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:09,800
Speaker 3: Not sitting there, well, you don't know, it just sits there.

1481
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:15,120
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, listening, but you know, like a calculator

1482
01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:16,880
Speaker 1: is not doing anything until you use it, it's the

1483
01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:19,280
Speaker 1: same kind of thing. And so yeah, you can't say

1484
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:23,080
Speaker 1: something sentient where it's just not doing anything until you

1485
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:27,720
Speaker 1: prompt it. So how long hard to say. With the

1486
01:18:27,840 --> 01:18:32,240
Speaker 1: rate of technological progress, Depending on how close we are

1487
01:18:32,479 --> 01:18:34,519
Speaker 1: with what we currently have, it could be quite soon.

1488
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:38,160
Speaker 1: But like I said, I think there's there's still research

1489
01:18:38,360 --> 01:18:40,480
Speaker 1: and there still needs to be some sort of breakthrough

1490
01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:45,040
Speaker 1: in terms of the architecture. The machine learning architecture that

1491
01:18:45,080 --> 01:18:49,439
Speaker 1: will govern it. So look ten to twenty years. I

1492
01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:58,840
Speaker 1: don't know, I've just plucked that feeling that but yeah,

1493
01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:01,520
Speaker 1: that's based on purely that that there is an accelerating

1494
01:19:01,920 --> 01:19:06,280
Speaker 1: progression of technological development, but also kind of conservatively saying

1495
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:09,280
Speaker 1: the twenty years because we still may not have figured

1496
01:19:09,280 --> 01:19:12,439
Speaker 1: out the secret of unlocking scent into consciousness yet and

1497
01:19:12,439 --> 01:19:14,679
Speaker 1: so that could be a bottleneck for some time as well.

1498
01:19:14,800 --> 01:19:16,080
Speaker 1: So watch this space.

1499
01:19:16,160 --> 01:19:18,840
Speaker 2: How good my prediction was, Yeah, Oh my gosh, we'll

1500
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:21,240
Speaker 2: come back to it. I can fully understand why Abby

1501
01:19:21,280 --> 01:19:23,800
Speaker 2: did a two parter because I literally feel like I start,

1502
01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:26,800
Speaker 2: I'm so annoyed to myself. I started the episode saying,

1503
01:19:27,000 --> 01:19:29,000
Speaker 2: look at the complexity of a human and then I

1504
01:19:29,040 --> 01:19:31,840
Speaker 2: didn't even make it to Pash like and like, I'm

1505
01:19:31,880 --> 01:19:34,439
Speaker 2: already like why over the studio time. I'm so sorry,

1506
01:19:36,040 --> 01:19:38,360
Speaker 2: gone on so many tangents. But I feel like this

1507
01:19:38,400 --> 01:19:40,760
Speaker 2: is also why I love our friendship, because there are

1508
01:19:40,800 --> 01:19:44,120
Speaker 2: so many facets we are like our tandents go in

1509
01:19:44,200 --> 01:19:47,040
Speaker 2: so many different directions, and the breadth of the conversation

1510
01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:50,080
Speaker 2: is why I enjoy our friendship so much. So thank

1511
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:52,320
Speaker 2: you for letting me do that in this episode, having

1512
01:19:52,760 --> 01:19:55,200
Speaker 2: totally inaccurately promised that I would cover all facets, which

1513
01:19:55,200 --> 01:19:58,000
Speaker 2: is impossible for the fabric of an entire human. But

1514
01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:00,360
Speaker 2: I hope that you guys listening have heard just a

1515
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:02,639
Speaker 2: little bit of a mat that you didn't know already,

1516
01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:04,720
Speaker 2: and so much more to come from you. I'll of

1517
01:20:04,760 --> 01:20:07,960
Speaker 2: course include all the links to everything the new book,

1518
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:12,840
Speaker 2: the first book, none of the articles about denying Khan crash,

1519
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:16,559
Speaker 2: the incredible alcoholic free beer, and I will include more

1520
01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:18,719
Speaker 2: details about that in the intro and outro as well,

1521
01:20:19,160 --> 01:20:20,519
Speaker 2: and we'll have to come back for part two.

1522
01:20:20,640 --> 01:20:23,320
Speaker 1: I'd love to this. I mean, look, this was inevitable, right, we.

1523
01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:26,880
Speaker 2: Knew such strict notes, and then I just went, yeah,

1524
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:28,760
Speaker 2: very very loose guidelines.

1525
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:32,719
Speaker 1: We knew we were going to go very tangential. Yeah,

1526
01:20:32,760 --> 01:20:35,880
Speaker 1: this is no Thanks so much, haining, this is really fun.

1527
01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:37,360
Speaker 1: Want me to come back for part two. I'd love to.

1528
01:20:37,479 --> 01:20:39,880
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I literally feel like that was one percent of

1529
01:20:39,880 --> 01:20:41,720
Speaker 2: scrape in the surface. I can't believe I made you

1530
01:20:41,840 --> 01:20:44,720
Speaker 2: rush the actual astrophysics and AI part of it.

1531
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:46,519
Speaker 3: Because there's so I feel like there.

1532
01:20:46,439 --> 01:20:48,759
Speaker 2: Is there's so much substance that just isn't covered anywhere,

1533
01:20:48,760 --> 01:20:50,919
Speaker 2: and I find it reductive, factual, but reductive.

1534
01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:53,040
Speaker 3: But I do hope that yeah, you guys.

1535
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:54,559
Speaker 2: Were able to get a little bit of a glimpse

1536
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:57,360
Speaker 2: into parts that you hadn't heard before. And if you

1537
01:20:57,400 --> 01:20:59,320
Speaker 2: do want part two, let us know and we'll come back.

1538
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:00,880
Speaker 1: Thank you.

1539
01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:03,840
Speaker 2: Okay, So, as I mentioned, this is part one, with

1540
01:21:03,960 --> 01:21:06,720
Speaker 2: Part two definitely going to follow. I don't know how

1541
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:09,120
Speaker 2: the time just got eaten up, and I was so

1542
01:21:09,200 --> 01:21:11,720
Speaker 2: frustrated at myself for the time management. But now that

1543
01:21:11,800 --> 01:21:14,640
Speaker 2: I think about it, Matt is so multifaceted, lending to

1544
01:21:14,720 --> 01:21:17,880
Speaker 2: so many different big topics and covering them any faster

1545
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:21,439
Speaker 2: just wouldn't do him or them justice at all. So

1546
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:23,720
Speaker 2: really I was unrealistic in thinking we could just do

1547
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:27,080
Speaker 2: this in one part. We have so much more to say,

1548
01:21:27,120 --> 01:21:30,640
Speaker 2: particularly on quitting alcohol, as I mentioned leading to his

1549
01:21:30,800 --> 01:21:34,559
Speaker 2: incredible business, the non alcoholic beer Pash, which then has

1550
01:21:34,640 --> 01:21:37,120
Speaker 2: led him to a recent stint on Shark Tank, the

1551
01:21:37,160 --> 01:21:40,559
Speaker 2: impact that quitting alcohol has had on his relationships and dating,

1552
01:21:41,200 --> 01:21:43,760
Speaker 2: and so much more. So stay tuned for Part two,

1553
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:45,720
Speaker 2: and all the links we mentioned will be in the

1554
01:21:45,720 --> 01:21:48,840
Speaker 2: show notes. As I said, if you enjoyed, please do

1555
01:21:48,960 --> 01:21:51,559
Speaker 2: share and tag Matt to thank him for his time

1556
01:21:51,640 --> 01:21:55,599
Speaker 2: and vulnerability. It's at dr matt Agnew on Instagram and

1557
01:21:55,760 --> 01:21:58,280
Speaker 2: in the meantime, I hope you're all having a great

1558
01:21:58,400 --> 01:22:01,479
Speaker 2: week and as seizing your yay. Part two will be

1559
01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:04,400
Speaker 2: coming soon and thank you guys so much again for listening.