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Speaker 1: Out louder is we are hitting the road again for

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Speaker 1: the Mom Maya Out Loud Live twenty twenty five All

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Speaker 1: or Nothing to are presented by Nivia Cellular.

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Speaker 2: We're going on tour in May. We are heading to

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Speaker 2: Perth on the first, Brisbane on the fourteenth, Sydney on

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Speaker 2: the seventeenth, and Melbourne on the twenty second.

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Speaker 3: And we've been telling you to sign up for the newsletter.

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Speaker 3: Some of you have done as you've been told, others

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Speaker 3: have not. If you are signed up, you might want

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Speaker 3: to check your email after you listen today's show because

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Speaker 3: you will be able to get exclusive early access to

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Speaker 3: buy tickets. Last year they sold out incredibly fast, so

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Speaker 3: sucks to not be you. What a great little trait

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Speaker 3: for you. Wednesday.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to Mom and Mia out Loud. It's

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Speaker 2: what women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the fourth

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Speaker 2: of December.

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Speaker 1: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And on the show today, what would you risk to

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Speaker 2: help a family member in the case of one of

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Speaker 2: the world's most powerful people. The answer might be reputation, credibility,

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Speaker 2: and legacy. Also is life meant to be sorted in

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Speaker 2: defense of clutter of all kinds and Sabrina Carpenter's live

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Speaker 2: show includes X rated lyrics and live sex positions, but

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Speaker 2: they're full of primary school aged kids.

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Speaker 4: Here's this a problem.

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Speaker 3: But first, Mia, in case you missed it, nippleheels are

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Speaker 3: the bitchiest shoes. Yes, the bitchiest shoes have been named,

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Speaker 3: and it's not crocs. They are actually the shoe most

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Speaker 3: people bitch about, which is a different thing. There's a

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Speaker 3: newsletter called The Never Worns written by Leanna Sattenstein, and

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Speaker 3: this is how she described the nipple heel. I know

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Speaker 3: this is not a visual medium. You can't see it,

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Speaker 3: but just listen to this description. She describes it as

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Speaker 3: a small, slightly puckered trunk in which the centimeter length

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Speaker 3: tap made up the actual height. It reminded me of

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Speaker 3: a nipple, a pinch nipple, to be exact. I was

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Speaker 3: looking at a nipple heel. It's not a kitten heel,

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Speaker 3: because a kitten heel is a little bit higher. It's

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Speaker 3: just like the end bit of the kitten heel, which

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Speaker 3: is like stuck to the stole of your shoe.

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Speaker 2: I'm wearing a kitten heel. That's a kitten heel.

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Speaker 3: That's not actually a kitten it's close to a kitten heel.

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Speaker 3: It's a little higher than a kitten heel.

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Speaker 2: That much of it, right, yeah, that much of it,

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Speaker 2: like tiny bit like a sort of an erect end

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Speaker 2: of the nipple.

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Speaker 1: I would say, yeah, it's like a breastfeeding erect nipple.

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Speaker 1: You know how they are a bit longer?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Are they cool?

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Speaker 2: Are they cool?

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Speaker 4: At the moment? Those shoes, I don't like them. I'm

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Speaker 4: not a fan.

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Speaker 3: But she wrote in this newsletter, she said, the nipple

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Speaker 3: heel is like saying, yeah, I'm wearing a heel, and

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Speaker 3: what of it? So, she said, the nipple heel is

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Speaker 3: an I gotcha shoe, something to flick your nose at

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Speaker 3: the discriminatory height rules of the can Film Festival, where

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Speaker 3: women have to wear high heels. The nipple heel is

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Speaker 3: the heel you wear to abide by dress codes and

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Speaker 3: social norms in the most petty way. It's the lowest effort,

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Speaker 3: yet the most statement making heel. And so I actually

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Speaker 3: think it should be called a lazy girl heel.

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Speaker 4: See.

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Speaker 1: I see it as an active defiance because it's saying

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Speaker 1: I won't be boxed in. The one that they've got

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Speaker 1: in the newsletter is a thong like a thigh.

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Speaker 4: I had one of those. I used to have one

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Speaker 4: of those.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've never been able to get around the thong heel,

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Speaker 1: just as an Australian. It just feels like are you

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Speaker 1: a thong? Are you a heel? Are you a sandal?

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Speaker 1: It can't make up its mind and there's no point

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Speaker 1: in this. It's like if the whole point of a

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Speaker 1: heel is to give you some heightened to elongate the ankle,

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Speaker 1: so what's the point in just having a little.

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Speaker 2: They're very rebellious, aren't they, Because if you wear heels,

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Speaker 2: it's usually to conform to that very outdated, old fashioned

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Speaker 2: word flattering like you know I often wear heels, you

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Speaker 2: know I do me it teases me for it, and

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Speaker 2: it's because stuck in my gen X head is like

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Speaker 2: it's it makes me elongate and all that boring shit

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Speaker 2: that we're trying to one pick and a nippleheel does

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Speaker 2: none of that. It is like a rebellious double finger

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Speaker 2: up because it actually elongates nothing. It just makes you

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Speaker 2: a little more wobbly. So it's very rebellious.

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Speaker 4: Well, it does a little.

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Speaker 3: Bit because it elevates you, like you know, by the

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Speaker 3: height of a nipple.

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Speaker 4: I guess it would depends on how nipples.

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Speaker 1: People with inverted nipples are going to feel very excluded

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Speaker 1: by this conversation. We see you, and that's not the

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Speaker 1: nipples we're talking about today.

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Speaker 2: I signed a pardon for my son Hunter. From the

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Speaker 2: day I took office, I said I would not interfere

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Speaker 2: with the Justice Department's decision making, and I kept my

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Speaker 2: word even as I have watched my son being selectively

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Speaker 2: and unfairly prosecuted. I hope Americans will understand why a

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Speaker 2: father and a president would come to this decision. These

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Speaker 2: are the words of a dad with extraordinary power who

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Speaker 2: just with a penstroke made his child's worries go away.

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Speaker 2: The US President, Joe Biden, has only got a couple

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Speaker 2: of months left in office.

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Speaker 4: As you probably aware, this was his.

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Speaker 2: Last chance to clear his son, Hunter, who was waiting

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Speaker 2: for a sentence to be handed down on a criminal conviction,

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Speaker 2: and the conviction was for just to be clear, right,

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Speaker 2: he was convicted, but he hadn't yet been sentenced to

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Speaker 2: lying about his drug use while buying a handgun in Delaware.

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Speaker 2: He was also a waiting sentencing on tax related charges,

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Speaker 2: and he'd pled guilty to those. He has a long

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Speaker 2: history of addiction to Class A drugs, and Hunter was

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Speaker 2: facing a possible but unlikely twenty five years in prison

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Speaker 2: for the gun case and seventeen years in prison on

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Speaker 2: the tax case, so long prison sentences, although everybody said

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Speaker 2: it was very unlikely he would have actually served that long,

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Speaker 2: and they probably would have been concurrent, as is customary

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Speaker 2: and deeply problematic in my opinion. But hey, in the

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Speaker 2: final week of a presidency, the commander in chief gets

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Speaker 2: to override criminal process and pardon people who've been convicted

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Speaker 2: of federal crimes or are being investigated for federal crimes.

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Speaker 4: The most bizarre practice. It is so weird.

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Speaker 2: So it was imported from Britain when the Founding Fathers

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Speaker 2: set up the American Constitution. At that time in England,

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Speaker 2: the king had the power to pardon people. So show

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Speaker 2: favor on someone and say you are absolved. And so

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Speaker 2: this was written into the Constitution of America and it

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Speaker 2: still stands, and everybody.

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Speaker 4: Does it right.

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Speaker 2: It's legal forgiveness, and it's entirely at the whim of

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Speaker 2: the president. So, for example, during his two terms, President

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Speaker 2: Obama pardoned around seventeen hundred people. Often presidents will use

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Speaker 2: it for a political reason. So a lot of the

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Speaker 2: people that Obama pardoned were serving time on drug offenses,

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Speaker 2: those sentences for which had been put in place.

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Speaker 4: At the height of the War on drugs.

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Speaker 2: So by the time Obama was round, those sentences were

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Speaker 2: seen as very punitive, had been very destructive to communities,

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Speaker 2: and were probably and overreach, so he pardoned a lot

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Speaker 2: of those people. Donald Trump pardoned some of his friends

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Speaker 2: and his cronies when he was president, and he has

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Speaker 2: promised on and off that when he is president this

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Speaker 2: time he'll pardon all those lovely chaps who stormed the

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Speaker 2: Capitol on January the sixth. Bill Clinton pardoned his half

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Speaker 2: brother who was on coke charges. Jimmy Carter offered a

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Speaker 2: like group pardon for all Vietnam draft dodgers. So it's

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Speaker 2: a very normal thing to do. But when it came

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Speaker 2: to Joe Biden and his infamously troubled son, he promised

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Speaker 2: that he wouldn't do it. So when he was running

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Speaker 2: for election, he said, I'm not going to do it.

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Speaker 4: It's a step too far.

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Speaker 2: And then he did it. It's largely being seen as

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Speaker 2: a collapse of integrity and character from a man who

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Speaker 2: until this year really had quite an unimpeachable record as

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Speaker 2: being the kind of man who did the right thing

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Speaker 2: and a very principled politician.

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Speaker 3: Until he went back on his promise to be a

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Speaker 3: one term president and be well, that's why I.

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Speaker 2: Say, until this year, so he'd always been seen as

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Speaker 2: a very principled, very righteous kind of politician, the old

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Speaker 2: fashioned kind of man who character matters, family matters. And

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Speaker 2: that's what's interesting, because why are we talking about this,

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Speaker 2: right It's a very American issue, But it seems to

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Speaker 2: me it's indicative of a couple of things, one of

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Speaker 2: which is where the culture's at right now. The vibe

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Speaker 2: is kind of it's all broken, so fuck it, I'm

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Speaker 2: just looking after myself. And also the very relatable question

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Speaker 2: of how far would you go to protect your family? So, Jesse,

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Speaker 2: you're related to Mia, yep, are you pardoning her for

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Speaker 2: absolutely everything she's ever done? When you rule the world.

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Speaker 3: She'd send me straight to prison for crimes against fashion,

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Speaker 3: of course she would.

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Speaker 1: So partnering my relatives to form partnering maya you are

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Speaker 1: definitely the first one in jail. I saw these headlines

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Speaker 1: and I thought, this is deeply unethical. It is undermining.

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Speaker 1: It plays into every I was gonna say conspiracy theory,

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Speaker 1: but this idea that the Democrats or the elites, they

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Speaker 1: had to drain the swamp and they had to get

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Speaker 1: rid of all these people that had all of this

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Speaker 1: unfettered power, and the Republicans were going to come in

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Speaker 1: and change it. This plays into the hands of all

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Speaker 1: of those theories that have circulated. With all that said,

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Speaker 1: I would do exactly the same thing, and I absolutely

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Speaker 1: and I can't look at this story. I can't look

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Speaker 1: at images of Hunter and Joe Biden without thinking about

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden's life and the children he has lost. So

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Speaker 1: he lost his thirteen month old daughter in a car

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Speaker 1: accident along with his first wife, and then he lost

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Speaker 1: Bo Biden to a brain tumor in twenty fifteen, So

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Speaker 1: he has two children left. Hunter it was his biological

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Speaker 1: sister that died in that car accident. I can't imagine

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Speaker 1: that trauma.

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Speaker 4: And he was in that car. I were both in

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Speaker 4: the car as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so's he's lost his two biological siblings. What a

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Speaker 1: parent would do for their child knows no limits. It's like,

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Speaker 1: I know that he is such a principled man, and

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Speaker 1: he is someone who defends institutions. He believes in institutions,

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Speaker 1: he believes in the institution of justice. But in this case,

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Speaker 1: I think I look at it too and go that

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Speaker 1: a lot has been written about Donald Trump's He's got

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Speaker 1: a real streak for retribution.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: We talked about anticipatory obedience and how people are scared

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Speaker 1: about what Trump's going to do to people who are

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Speaker 1: his enemies.

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Speaker 3: He's openly said he's going to go after them, and

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Speaker 3: when yeah, you look at some of the appointments he's

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Speaker 3: made in his cabinet and who he's just appointed to

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Speaker 3: head up the FBI, he's been very outspoken about he's

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Speaker 3: going to go after his enemies. And also he knows

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Speaker 3: you've got to see everything that Donald Trump does through

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Speaker 3: the lens of reality TV, because he's suddenly gone from

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Speaker 3: being the underdog, which is where he's most comfortable, because

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Speaker 3: you can just attack when you're the incumbent. You have

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Speaker 3: to keep your base interested in the plot, right, and

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Speaker 3: so they want stuff from him, They want plot points.

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Speaker 3: So by going after who he says his enemies and

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Speaker 3: the enemies of the people and Biden's and he's talked

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Speaker 3: about going after Anthony Foucher, who was in charge of

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Speaker 3: the COVID response, anybody who he feels has personally crossed

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Speaker 3: him and who he feels his base would like, you know,

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Speaker 3: lock her up, lock her up, Hopeillo.

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Speaker 4: Clinton's you know, got good lawyers. That's what he's going

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Speaker 4: to do.

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Speaker 3: He's shown that he will pander to the most base

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Speaker 3: instincts of both himself and his base. So interestingly, Hunter

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Speaker 3: Biden was meant to be sentenced next week. Regardless of

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Speaker 3: that sentence, he could have tried to go after him

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Speaker 3: for other things because he's always talked about the Biden

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Speaker 3: crime family and that Hunter did some, you know, really

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Speaker 3: bad things. What's really interesting about this pardon is that

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Speaker 3: he didn't just pardon him for those things. He pardoned

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Speaker 3: him for everything that he did over a period of

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Speaker 3: twenty years, things that we might not even know about.

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Speaker 3: And that is and he framed it. He said that

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Speaker 3: he's been the target of prosecution because of he's.

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Speaker 4: My son, and that's wrong.

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Speaker 3: But what he hasn't said is what about all the

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Speaker 3: other people that are potentially at risk for political reasons

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Speaker 3: that Trump might go after. He almost should have pardoned

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Speaker 3: all of them at the same time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the language could have been taken out of

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Speaker 1: Trump's mouth. This is the issue, is that from being

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Speaker 1: politically pursued to be made an example of with Hunter Biden,

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Speaker 1: which is what Biden is saying. And a lot of

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Speaker 1: political analysts agree that anyone else what they actually got

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Speaker 1: Hunter Biden on probably wouldn't be something they'd bother with

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Speaker 1: for just the average citizen. But Trump has said the

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Speaker 1: same thing. Trump has said, I've been pursued. You're trying

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Speaker 1: to make an example of me in a courtroom. This

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Speaker 1: is not a good thing for the Democratic Party. It

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Speaker 1: is not a good thing for I think politics in

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Speaker 1: America because now if you're going to say you're the

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Speaker 1: party of fairness, you don't have a leg to stand on.

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Speaker 2: I think it's deeply depressing, depressing.

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Speaker 4: Would you not do it? Huh? Well, I'd like to

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Speaker 4: think that I wouldn't, But how would I know?

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 2: I think that the reason I say I think it's

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Speaker 2: deeply depressing is because I don't think that Biden would

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Speaker 2: have done this if Harris had won. I don't think

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Speaker 2: he would have done right. And you could argue that's

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Speaker 2: because he wouldn't have been afraid of a political witch

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Speaker 2: hunt if Harris had won. But I also think that

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Speaker 2: this is symptomatic of a nihilism that is kind of

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Speaker 2: upon us all at the minute, which is, like, whatever

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Speaker 2: you think of him, he has effectively and systematically dismantled

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Speaker 2: every political norm and also a lot of cultural norms

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Speaker 2: that we've talked about lots of times. Don't bully, don't

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Speaker 2: pick on the underdog, don't be corrupt, don't just put

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Speaker 2: all your mates and positions about And it's not like

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Speaker 2: he's the world's first corrupt politician, but it is astonishing

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Speaker 2: what he has managed to dismantle in terms of the

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Speaker 2: way that things are normally supposed to go. You know,

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Speaker 2: as people say over and over again, character used to matter.

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Speaker 2: Are you the kind of person who grabs women by

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Speaker 2: the pussy? Are you the kind of person who uses

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Speaker 2: a racial slur? Are you the kind of person likes

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Speaker 2: a lot of the people that he's trying to appoint

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Speaker 2: to positions, gropes women when you're drunk, has sex with

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Speaker 2: underage girls, Like, none of that seems to matter.

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Speaker 4: Anymore.

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Speaker 2: And so there are a lot of people on the

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Speaker 2: progressive side of politics who are saying we have to

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Speaker 2: get down and dirty too. We can no longer be

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Speaker 2: like trying to pretend and hold ourselves to a moral

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Speaker 2: high ground if whether that's real or imagined. I'm not

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Speaker 2: suggesting for a second that that side of politics was

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Speaker 2: always squeaky clean.

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Speaker 4: Of course not.

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Speaker 2: But with a different election result, Biden probably wouldn't have

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Speaker 2: done this. But I think he's angry. There's a nihilism

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Speaker 2: here that's just like, well, the whole system's broken, so

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Speaker 2: fuck it, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: I think it's I think he feels that way about

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Speaker 1: the Democrats. I don't think he cares. And I have

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Speaker 1: a lot of respect for Joe Biden's career if you

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Speaker 1: look at what he's done, like he's been an incredibly

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Speaker 1: accomplished politician. But I agree that I reckon he's pissed off.

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Speaker 1: I reckon he's pissed off at the Democratic Party at

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Speaker 1: feeling like he was outstitited a little.

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Speaker 2: Bit version of the story he tells himself.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 4: And I think the feeling's mutual.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's like, what was the point so what

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Speaker 1: was the point in playing by the rules? That's why

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Speaker 1: I do think that there's something really nihilistic about it

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Speaker 1: that they weren't rewarded for trying to go high. They

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Speaker 1: weren't rewarded for trying.

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Speaker 3: To But hang on a second. I also think that

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Speaker 3: it speaks to the ego of the man, and I

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Speaker 3: think I also think he's achieved some really interesting things

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Speaker 3: and good things.

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Speaker 4: And of course, in a.

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Speaker 3: Contest between Joe Biden and Donald Trump, it's not an

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Speaker 3: equal comparison. But I think when I was reading more

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Speaker 3: about this story and learning more about the history of

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Speaker 3: the Biden family, which is unquestionably, you know, objectively tragic,

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Speaker 3: it wasn't just what happened after the accident, you know,

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Speaker 3: then Hunter Biden became a drug addict, He split with

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Speaker 3: his wife, Bo Biden died, and then Hunter Biden started

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Speaker 3: a relationship with Bo Biden's widow.

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Speaker 4: And I'd forgotten about that, yeah, and no, but.

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Speaker 3: Then he introduced her to drugs and then she became

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Speaker 3: and we're talking about crack cocaine. We're not talking about,

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Speaker 3: you know, smoking a bit of weed. She then became

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Speaker 3: a crack addict. The widow of Bo Biden and then

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Speaker 3: his daughter Ashley. She also became a drug addict. And

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Speaker 3: all of this was happening in twenty nineteen. When Joe

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Speaker 3: Biden decided to run for president, his family was literally

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Speaker 3: on fire. His two remaining children were both drug addicts,

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Speaker 3: so was his daughter in law who was the widow.

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Speaker 3: And there were children in all of these families. No,

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Speaker 3: but I first in gossip, but they're all adults. It's

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Speaker 3: not interesting gossip at all. What it is to me

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Speaker 3: is a really interesting time to decide I'm going to

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Speaker 3: run for president, knowing what that was going to bring

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Speaker 3: on all of your children at that particular time.

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Speaker 4: Yes, but at.

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Speaker 2: That particular time, he was very much in the frame

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Speaker 2: as like you are the only one who can beat Trump.

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Speaker 4: And it was true.

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Speaker 2: That's why this is such an interesting story, right, is

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Speaker 2: that you could argue and he says this right because

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Speaker 2: his identity as a dad is central to his legends.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: Remember when he became president and he sent out that

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Speaker 2: missive to everyone, never neglect your family, which is ironic

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Speaker 2: given what you just.

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Speaker 4: Said, go home for birthdays.

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Speaker 2: There's a famous story about him once catching a three

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Speaker 2: hour train just to have blow out the birthday candles

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Speaker 2: on his daughter's caken and get straight back on it

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Speaker 2: to go back to work. So and he talks about

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Speaker 2: his family endlessly and the fact that his family have

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Speaker 2: gone through all these troubles is one of the things

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Speaker 2: that people like about him.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's relatable, right.

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Speaker 2: But the question is is if did the neglect lead

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Speaker 2: to the troubles or not, Like it's all that, you know,

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Speaker 2: tied together.

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Speaker 4: That's not the.

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Speaker 3: Point that I was making. The point that I was

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Speaker 3: making is I think he has a lot of guilt

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Speaker 3: about that, and I think it's understandable because I think

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Speaker 3: that there's two ways of looking at it. There's the

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Speaker 3: way of looking at it as saying he sacrificed his

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Speaker 3: family to save the country and for the great good,

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Speaker 3: but also with big benefit to himself. And he was

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Speaker 3: very devastated that he never you know, sort of recovered

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Speaker 3: from the bitterness that Obama told him not to run

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Speaker 3: back in twenty sixteen. It was right after bo died

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Speaker 3: and Obama discouraged him, and he's never forgotten that, and

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Speaker 3: he still talks about and refers to not publicly, but

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Speaker 3: maybe he could have won in twenty sixteen against Trump

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Speaker 3: instead of Hillary Clinton, Like anybody, it's not all good

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Speaker 3: and it's not all bad. I think that you could

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Speaker 3: say that this decision to pardon Hunter, you can see

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Speaker 3: that that must weigh on him. The thought that if

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Speaker 3: I hadn't gone for president in twenty nineteen, prosecutors probably

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Speaker 3: wouldn't have gone after Hunt.

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Speaker 2: I get all that, but it's still objectively not a

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Speaker 2: defendable position. Like the main charge that he's been convicted

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Speaker 2: of is related to gun crime, like America's issues with guns,

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Speaker 2: and you're going, it's fine that he lied about being

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Speaker 2: a drug addict when he was trying to get a gun,

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Speaker 2: like it is indefensible. I'm not saying it's not understandable.

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Speaker 4: It is.

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Speaker 2: But the people who are wringing their hands about integrity

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Speaker 2: are seen as very old fashioned. And I totally get that,

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Speaker 2: because that's the big question, is like what do you

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Speaker 2: do when you're faced with someone who plays by no

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Speaker 2: rules at all? Are you really going to stay there

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Speaker 2: all the time saying but integrity, but character.

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Speaker 4: But on the other hand, it does matter. I think

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Speaker 4: it matters.

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Speaker 2: Whether become harden or your cronies and your mates and

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Speaker 2: your family members, no matter what they did.

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Speaker 1: It's become this like mud slinging fight of then I've

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Speaker 1: just seen people go, oh, well, if you think that's bad,

403
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Speaker 1: let me tell you about the president with thirty four

404
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Speaker 1: felony counts against him. And let me tell you about

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Speaker 1: Ivunka and Jared in the White House and how much

406
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Speaker 1: money they made, or Jared's father who was pardoned and

407
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Speaker 1: is now the ambassador to France. The effect of all

408
00:20:04,247 --> 00:20:07,407
Speaker 1: of that back and forth, this ping pong thing, is

409
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Speaker 1: that everyone goes, you're a bunch of untrustworthy, corrupt dickheads,

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Speaker 1: and I want nothing to do with it, and I

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Speaker 1: won't vote.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent the erosion of trust and institutions. It's

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Speaker 2: like I wonder.

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Speaker 1: Why, but I reckon that this will be. This feels

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Speaker 1: like a philosophical conundrum that you could study at university,

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Speaker 1: where it's like, I'm so challenged by the integrity and

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Speaker 1: the intellectual argument of what it means for politics and

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Speaker 1: what it means for democracy. It's the greatest example of

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Speaker 1: the head versus the heart. You know, what Biden knew

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Speaker 1: in his head was the right thing to do, and

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Speaker 1: he's heart won.

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Speaker 6: And for most of us, I think it.

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Speaker 2: Would in a moment bring on the clutter why Life

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Speaker 2: Isn't Meant to be Sorted.

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Speaker 1: I came across a substack this week with the subject

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Speaker 1: line life Isn't Meant to be Sorted, and I clicked

427
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Speaker 1: on it immediately because my immediate response was, thank fuck,

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00:20:56,887 --> 00:21:00,447
Speaker 1: I need to read this. The writer Isabelle Sandercock Brown,

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00:21:00,687 --> 00:21:05,167
Speaker 1: coins the term sorted smugness to refer to the feeling

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Speaker 1: that you're finally there, You've finally arrived, have become easier,

431
00:21:10,447 --> 00:21:14,087
Speaker 1: things are going well, But she writes that the universe

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Speaker 1: does not care for sorted smugness. A good exercise routine

433
00:21:17,807 --> 00:21:20,567
Speaker 1: is disrupted by the flu, or you know you're eating

434
00:21:20,607 --> 00:21:24,247
Speaker 1: well is canceled out by a holiday. Sorted smugness is

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00:21:24,287 --> 00:21:27,007
Speaker 1: actually a trap, and it is setting you up from

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Speaker 1: mediate failure. If the ocean is still, she says, that's

437
00:21:31,127 --> 00:21:34,247
Speaker 1: thanks to the conditions, and the tide could turn at

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Speaker 1: any moment. Holly, Even though we know this to be true,

439
00:21:38,807 --> 00:21:41,807
Speaker 1: do you still feel the pull to get on top

440
00:21:41,847 --> 00:21:42,847
Speaker 1: of everything and have it sorted?

441
00:21:43,167 --> 00:21:45,607
Speaker 2: Yes, one hundred percent, But I never ever, ever do.

442
00:21:46,247 --> 00:21:47,927
Speaker 2: One of the things I've learned this year, I think,

443
00:21:48,007 --> 00:21:49,967
Speaker 2: is to let go of the idea of there's a

444
00:21:50,007 --> 00:21:53,407
Speaker 2: destination where everything's going to be fine, as in, you know,

445
00:21:53,487 --> 00:21:56,087
Speaker 2: if only I make this change or that change, or

446
00:21:56,287 --> 00:22:00,047
Speaker 2: we implement this new thing at home or whatever, or

447
00:22:00,127 --> 00:22:02,407
Speaker 2: I get my in box zero or whatever it is,

448
00:22:02,487 --> 00:22:03,767
Speaker 2: then everything will be fine.

449
00:22:04,367 --> 00:22:07,527
Speaker 4: It's not true. I spoke about this book that I read.

450
00:22:07,327 --> 00:22:10,207
Speaker 2: This year called Meditation for Mortals by Oliver Berkman, and

451
00:22:10,247 --> 00:22:13,167
Speaker 2: that's what that's about. It's about we are finite humans,

452
00:22:13,607 --> 00:22:19,007
Speaker 2: we are flawed. The myth of perfection, peak productivity, all

453
00:22:19,127 --> 00:22:21,687
Speaker 2: ducks in a row is one of the things that's

454
00:22:21,727 --> 00:22:24,287
Speaker 2: making us unhappy because we'll never achieve it. And so

455
00:22:24,367 --> 00:22:27,287
Speaker 2: you've got to be much more realistic about what level

456
00:22:27,327 --> 00:22:30,727
Speaker 2: of disorganization and chaos you're just going to live with.

457
00:22:31,367 --> 00:22:33,767
Speaker 2: But on a literal level, I'm sure there are lots

458
00:22:33,807 --> 00:22:36,287
Speaker 2: of out louders listening, and we talked about this on

459
00:22:36,327 --> 00:22:38,487
Speaker 2: the show a while ago, who will tell you that

460
00:22:38,527 --> 00:22:43,687
Speaker 2: they feel much better mentally if they have got things sorted,

461
00:22:43,767 --> 00:22:47,887
Speaker 2: whether that is their laundry pile or their kitchen bench top,

462
00:22:48,367 --> 00:22:51,767
Speaker 2: or their wardrobe or their inbox. They feel mentally more

463
00:22:51,807 --> 00:22:55,007
Speaker 2: prepared for the day. So I think there's like a

464
00:22:55,127 --> 00:22:58,847
Speaker 2: kind of existential clutter that you've got to accept, but

465
00:22:59,007 --> 00:23:02,647
Speaker 2: also there's a literal clutter that probably does need for

466
00:23:02,687 --> 00:23:04,767
Speaker 2: a lot of people to be cleared for you to

467
00:23:04,847 --> 00:23:06,287
Speaker 2: feel in any way.

468
00:23:06,647 --> 00:23:07,487
Speaker 4: But then that's harm.

469
00:23:07,687 --> 00:23:09,807
Speaker 1: It's kind of a metaphor, right, because it's like you

470
00:23:09,807 --> 00:23:12,207
Speaker 1: get to the bottom of a laundry basket, but you

471
00:23:12,247 --> 00:23:15,047
Speaker 1: know it's going to immediately same with the inbox. So

472
00:23:15,127 --> 00:23:20,607
Speaker 1: any sorted smugness is so fleeting, even though we imagine

473
00:23:20,607 --> 00:23:22,847
Speaker 1: that one day we're going to happen upon the system,

474
00:23:23,247 --> 00:23:26,167
Speaker 1: this destination where finally everything clicks into place. And maybe

475
00:23:26,167 --> 00:23:28,607
Speaker 1: it's because we think we see it in other people.

476
00:23:28,967 --> 00:23:32,207
Speaker 1: I reckon that this is something parents think a lot,

477
00:23:32,287 --> 00:23:34,127
Speaker 1: is that you're going to get to a particular stage

478
00:23:34,167 --> 00:23:36,167
Speaker 1: and it's going to become easy. Is that you go,

479
00:23:36,207 --> 00:23:38,567
Speaker 1: once we're out of da once we're out of blah,

480
00:23:38,687 --> 00:23:42,407
Speaker 1: then that's when parenting is going to be this simple

481
00:23:42,447 --> 00:23:44,647
Speaker 1: thing and we're all going to know each other. But

482
00:23:45,127 --> 00:23:48,247
Speaker 1: as everyone always says, it's just replacing old problems with

483
00:23:48,367 --> 00:23:51,207
Speaker 1: new ones. I have this weird thing, though, which is

484
00:23:51,207 --> 00:23:54,727
Speaker 1: almost the opposite the analogy about the ocean. I think

485
00:23:54,727 --> 00:23:57,087
Speaker 1: about a lot and I actually hate thinking about it.

486
00:23:57,127 --> 00:23:58,527
Speaker 1: I think about it when I get into bed, that

487
00:23:59,287 --> 00:24:02,967
Speaker 1: the ocean might seem calm, but you have no control

488
00:24:03,007 --> 00:24:06,047
Speaker 1: over what's coming. If we were to fully take that

489
00:24:06,167 --> 00:24:08,407
Speaker 1: on every minute of every day, I don't think we'd

490
00:24:08,567 --> 00:24:11,487
Speaker 1: be sane. But sometimes I feel like my life is

491
00:24:11,647 --> 00:24:14,407
Speaker 1: made of glass, Like there are all these glass figurines,

492
00:24:14,887 --> 00:24:17,607
Speaker 1: all the things that are working and that make me happy,

493
00:24:17,647 --> 00:24:19,727
Speaker 1: and that I'm just waiting for the gust of wind

494
00:24:20,087 --> 00:24:22,567
Speaker 1: that's just going to blow them all off. I know

495
00:24:22,607 --> 00:24:25,767
Speaker 1: that we're meant to be grateful and practice gratitude and

496
00:24:25,807 --> 00:24:27,767
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff, but it also makes you

497
00:24:27,847 --> 00:24:31,487
Speaker 1: terrified because you know that any moment of joy is

498
00:24:31,567 --> 00:24:34,047
Speaker 1: just as fleeting, if that makes sense. May or do

499
00:24:34,047 --> 00:24:34,647
Speaker 1: you relate to that?

500
00:24:35,287 --> 00:24:39,607
Speaker 3: No, and I don't relate to the idea of sordid smugness,

501
00:24:39,647 --> 00:24:44,127
Speaker 3: maybe because I've never experienced it. I think my relationship

502
00:24:44,487 --> 00:24:50,007
Speaker 3: to the uncertainty of life is kind of different for

503
00:24:50,087 --> 00:24:56,447
Speaker 3: whatever reason, because my life is always really chaotic, and

504
00:24:57,247 --> 00:25:01,727
Speaker 3: I spend a lot of time trying to create order,

505
00:25:02,247 --> 00:25:06,047
Speaker 3: but I always know it's fleeting, so I have such

506
00:25:06,167 --> 00:25:08,687
Speaker 3: low expectations. And I also think because I've been a

507
00:25:08,687 --> 00:25:12,287
Speaker 3: parent for so long, almost thirty years of parenting. I

508
00:25:12,367 --> 00:25:16,447
Speaker 3: learned a really long time ago that you're like, oh, great,

509
00:25:16,567 --> 00:25:20,167
Speaker 3: we're sorted, and then it's like, oh no, but there's

510
00:25:20,207 --> 00:25:24,207
Speaker 3: been a software upgrade, except you don't know what it

511
00:25:24,287 --> 00:25:25,727
Speaker 3: is or where to find it.

512
00:25:26,687 --> 00:25:29,167
Speaker 4: You just know, have you figured out what it was? Yeah,

513
00:25:29,327 --> 00:25:30,447
Speaker 4: there's been another one.

514
00:25:30,607 --> 00:25:32,887
Speaker 6: There there are viruses.

515
00:25:32,487 --> 00:25:34,207
Speaker 3: And I was just, you know, I was thinking that

516
00:25:34,607 --> 00:25:36,407
Speaker 3: when I was spending time with Luna the other day.

517
00:25:36,407 --> 00:25:38,167
Speaker 3: But it's like that with all of my children, even

518
00:25:38,207 --> 00:25:40,927
Speaker 3: the adult ones, where you're like, oh, we're in a

519
00:25:40,967 --> 00:25:44,167
Speaker 3: really good phase now, and it's like things will always change.

520
00:25:44,207 --> 00:25:45,607
Speaker 4: And I also think.

521
00:25:45,487 --> 00:25:49,887
Speaker 3: That I just have a very different relationship to yeah,

522
00:25:50,047 --> 00:25:53,407
Speaker 3: change in chaos, in that it's kind of my default setting,

523
00:25:53,447 --> 00:25:56,047
Speaker 3: and sometimes I seek it. I get very bored with

524
00:25:56,087 --> 00:26:00,207
Speaker 3: the status quo and I'll seek it. But then on

525
00:26:00,247 --> 00:26:02,527
Speaker 3: the other hand, I have all these things in my life,

526
00:26:02,567 --> 00:26:05,367
Speaker 3: these like routines, you know, like what I eat for

527
00:26:05,407 --> 00:26:07,767
Speaker 3: breakfast and what I do every day and what I

528
00:26:07,807 --> 00:26:11,647
Speaker 3: have for lunch. And I like those routines because they

529
00:26:11,967 --> 00:26:14,727
Speaker 3: mean that I can cope with the chaos around them

530
00:26:14,767 --> 00:26:15,287
Speaker 3: much better.

531
00:26:15,647 --> 00:26:18,927
Speaker 2: You like chaos, but you also really require a certain

532
00:26:19,007 --> 00:26:21,847
Speaker 2: level of order in terms of those routines to feel safe.

533
00:26:22,047 --> 00:26:24,487
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like that's my foundation of I guess what

534
00:26:24,567 --> 00:26:27,607
Speaker 3: you would say sorted. They're things like the fact that

535
00:26:27,607 --> 00:26:29,407
Speaker 3: I had peanut butter toaster, that I have, the fact

536
00:26:29,447 --> 00:26:31,367
Speaker 3: that I have the same thing for lunch every day,

537
00:26:31,447 --> 00:26:33,767
Speaker 3: or that I have tea or my tea. It's like

538
00:26:34,927 --> 00:26:36,887
Speaker 3: no one else is involved in that. There aren't a

539
00:26:36,887 --> 00:26:39,287
Speaker 3: whole lot of variables, like I can I'm on the

540
00:26:39,367 --> 00:26:41,367
Speaker 3: road at the moment, and I'm in Melbourne, and I've

541
00:26:41,367 --> 00:26:42,647
Speaker 3: got my tea cup with me, and I've got my

542
00:26:42,727 --> 00:26:44,807
Speaker 3: tea bags with me, and I've got my milk, and

543
00:26:44,847 --> 00:26:48,087
Speaker 3: so I know how to have the little tiny parts

544
00:26:48,127 --> 00:26:51,807
Speaker 3: of my life that are sorted. They almost give me

545
00:26:52,207 --> 00:26:55,927
Speaker 3: the strength or the security or the foundations to then

546
00:26:55,967 --> 00:26:57,887
Speaker 3: deal with everything else which is never sorted.

547
00:26:58,367 --> 00:27:02,647
Speaker 2: I have a meltdown every single Sunday over the washing basket.

548
00:27:02,807 --> 00:27:05,327
Speaker 2: That is nothing to do with the washing basket, right.

549
00:27:05,407 --> 00:27:09,327
Speaker 2: So Brent is a very good He washes constantly, the

550
00:27:09,447 --> 00:27:12,607
Speaker 2: washing machine is constantly going, right, but he never puts

551
00:27:12,647 --> 00:27:15,247
Speaker 2: anything away. So usually by the time I get home

552
00:27:15,247 --> 00:27:17,247
Speaker 2: from being at work for a few days and doing whatever,

553
00:27:17,447 --> 00:27:20,247
Speaker 2: there's like this teetering mountain of washing that then just

554
00:27:20,247 --> 00:27:22,527
Speaker 2: grows and grows and grows, and by Sunday, which is

555
00:27:22,527 --> 00:27:23,887
Speaker 2: the day that I'm like, I'm going to fold it

556
00:27:23,887 --> 00:27:25,527
Speaker 2: all up and put it away, I am in an

557
00:27:25,527 --> 00:27:27,127
Speaker 2: existential crisis that I'm just.

558
00:27:27,047 --> 00:27:28,927
Speaker 4: Like, everything is out of control.

559
00:27:29,127 --> 00:27:31,367
Speaker 2: And it's because our life is a mess, and it's

560
00:27:31,367 --> 00:27:34,007
Speaker 2: because I'm not organized enough, and it's because you're too lazy,

561
00:27:34,007 --> 00:27:35,967
Speaker 2: and it's because we haven't brought the children up right.

562
00:27:36,167 --> 00:27:38,127
Speaker 2: And if only we'd have got them off the screens

563
00:27:38,127 --> 00:27:39,887
Speaker 2: earlier and put some more rules in place for them,

564
00:27:39,887 --> 00:27:41,807
Speaker 2: and they'd further on washing and put it away, and

565
00:27:41,847 --> 00:27:42,967
Speaker 2: then it'd be a good parent.

566
00:27:43,127 --> 00:27:44,807
Speaker 4: But as it is, all the clothes are dirty and

567
00:27:44,887 --> 00:27:49,007
Speaker 4: we didn't put the whites. Yeah, that's a sorted spiral.

568
00:27:49,127 --> 00:27:51,807
Speaker 2: That is a sorted spiral, right, So then my whole

569
00:27:51,847 --> 00:27:55,127
Speaker 2: life it's not about the washing. So I like to

570
00:27:55,167 --> 00:27:58,167
Speaker 2: imagine that if I had a really good system and

571
00:27:58,247 --> 00:28:00,847
Speaker 2: I had have sorted the smugness about the washing, then

572
00:28:00,887 --> 00:28:03,047
Speaker 2: everything in life would be calm. But it wouldn't right,

573
00:28:03,127 --> 00:28:05,607
Speaker 2: It would just attach itself to something else.

574
00:28:05,687 --> 00:28:09,247
Speaker 1: The issue, too, is that sorted smugness are see you

575
00:28:09,727 --> 00:28:12,047
Speaker 1: that you have a destination that you're aiming to get to,

576
00:28:12,407 --> 00:28:13,887
Speaker 1: and then when you get there, you're not going to

577
00:28:13,927 --> 00:28:17,087
Speaker 1: want anything else. Because the moments in my life where

578
00:28:17,087 --> 00:28:19,407
Speaker 1: I have been most confronted with my own happiness have

579
00:28:19,527 --> 00:28:21,607
Speaker 1: been when I have achieved the thing I set out

580
00:28:21,607 --> 00:28:24,407
Speaker 1: to do and I've gone this is in. It's like,

581
00:28:24,727 --> 00:28:28,207
Speaker 1: the problem with being sorted is that once you get there,

582
00:28:28,367 --> 00:28:31,687
Speaker 1: you want something else. Yes, so once you have got

583
00:28:31,727 --> 00:28:33,527
Speaker 1: on top of the laundry, you look around and go,

584
00:28:33,927 --> 00:28:34,727
Speaker 1: has anyone.

585
00:28:34,447 --> 00:28:37,167
Speaker 4: Even looked at the dishwasher because the dish washoe is broken?

586
00:28:37,727 --> 00:28:39,487
Speaker 1: And then you're going to go, there are fingerprints on

587
00:28:39,527 --> 00:28:42,367
Speaker 1: my windows, Like that's just life is looking to the

588
00:28:42,527 --> 00:28:45,167
Speaker 1: slightly to the left and being like there's a literal

589
00:28:45,247 --> 00:28:48,167
Speaker 1: fire in my bed, and then just going kind of

590
00:28:48,207 --> 00:28:52,247
Speaker 1: looking around and everything constantly changing. So I do think

591
00:28:52,287 --> 00:28:55,887
Speaker 1: that it's a bit of a mirage. But in saying that,

592
00:28:55,967 --> 00:28:58,767
Speaker 1: I guess we were speaking recently about Sunday routines. It's like,

593
00:28:58,847 --> 00:29:02,527
Speaker 1: isn't that also always our attempt to just at least

594
00:29:03,007 --> 00:29:05,167
Speaker 1: pretend we're sorted, even if only for an hour?

595
00:29:05,847 --> 00:29:07,327
Speaker 4: Turn for the Wednesday waffle.

596
00:29:07,807 --> 00:29:11,007
Speaker 1: Remember months ago we talked about the Wednesday Waffle. It

597
00:29:11,047 --> 00:29:13,167
Speaker 1: had been floating around, I think, on TikTok, and it

598
00:29:13,207 --> 00:29:14,847
Speaker 1: was like a voice note that you would put in

599
00:29:14,887 --> 00:29:18,047
Speaker 1: your big group chat where everyone would properly catch up

600
00:29:18,047 --> 00:29:21,407
Speaker 1: on each other's lives. Well, now it's actually been put

601
00:29:21,407 --> 00:29:23,887
Speaker 1: into practice, and for some it's a video. So the

602
00:29:23,927 --> 00:29:26,487
Speaker 1: young people are doing a video where they do five

603
00:29:26,567 --> 00:29:28,887
Speaker 1: minutes of just here's what's happening. I went on this date,

604
00:29:28,927 --> 00:29:30,847
Speaker 1: Here's how work's going, here's the gossip.

605
00:29:30,527 --> 00:29:31,847
Speaker 6: Blah blah blah.

606
00:29:31,887 --> 00:29:35,087
Speaker 1: And we asked around the office who had adopted this practice,

607
00:29:35,207 --> 00:29:36,607
Speaker 1: and here's what they said.

608
00:29:38,087 --> 00:29:40,447
Speaker 5: So me and my UNI friends have been doing Wednesday

609
00:29:40,447 --> 00:29:43,487
Speaker 5: Waffle for about three weeks now, and it's so nice

610
00:29:43,527 --> 00:29:46,487
Speaker 5: because we're finding out the little bits that we miss

611
00:29:46,567 --> 00:29:49,367
Speaker 5: in between seeing each other. So it might be one

612
00:29:49,487 --> 00:29:52,007
Speaker 5: or two months until we can catch up all again,

613
00:29:52,047 --> 00:29:54,207
Speaker 5: because we all live in different cities and even different

614
00:29:54,247 --> 00:29:57,767
Speaker 5: countries now, and we get to hear about the annoying

615
00:29:57,767 --> 00:30:01,167
Speaker 5: incident with the coffee that spills on them on the

616
00:30:01,167 --> 00:30:01,727
Speaker 5: way to work.

617
00:30:02,447 --> 00:30:06,047
Speaker 7: I saw the Wednesday waffle go viral on social media.

618
00:30:06,087 --> 00:30:07,767
Speaker 7: I think it's there's two guys doing it, and I

619
00:30:07,807 --> 00:30:09,727
Speaker 7: sent it to my friend Sam and the UK because

620
00:30:09,727 --> 00:30:11,647
Speaker 7: we're so bad at keeping in touch with each other,

621
00:30:12,047 --> 00:30:13,527
Speaker 7: and when we get on the phone it's like a

622
00:30:13,567 --> 00:30:15,527
Speaker 7: two hour, three hour because there's so much to catch

623
00:30:15,607 --> 00:30:17,967
Speaker 7: up on. But now we do a Wednesday Waffle and

624
00:30:18,007 --> 00:30:19,567
Speaker 7: we do it every single Wednesday, and we do it

625
00:30:19,567 --> 00:30:21,887
Speaker 7: as a video instead of you know, a podcast, just

626
00:30:21,927 --> 00:30:24,567
Speaker 7: so we can see each other's faces. But it's a

627
00:30:24,847 --> 00:30:26,487
Speaker 7: We try to cap them at two minutes. Her one

628
00:30:26,527 --> 00:30:28,407
Speaker 7: last week was seven minutes, so that was a bit long,

629
00:30:28,807 --> 00:30:30,607
Speaker 7: but we tried to do them every single Wednesday.

630
00:30:31,007 --> 00:30:32,047
Speaker 4: Oh I really love this.

631
00:30:32,327 --> 00:30:34,767
Speaker 3: I thought I hated it, but listening to that makes

632
00:30:34,807 --> 00:30:36,207
Speaker 3: me think maybe I should do it.

633
00:30:36,607 --> 00:30:38,287
Speaker 4: Yeah, but at least don't do it.

634
00:30:38,687 --> 00:30:41,327
Speaker 6: Yeah, she's going to do it Wednesday time.

635
00:30:41,527 --> 00:30:44,127
Speaker 4: So this, yeah, this is our Wednesday wafful exactly.

636
00:30:44,247 --> 00:30:46,567
Speaker 6: You're not allowed to add another one.

637
00:30:47,007 --> 00:30:48,887
Speaker 1: I have some friends so that they like listening to

638
00:30:48,927 --> 00:30:51,047
Speaker 1: the podcast because they don't have to respond, but they

639
00:30:51,047 --> 00:30:53,327
Speaker 1: feel like we caught up, which I kind of relate with.

640
00:30:53,927 --> 00:30:56,287
Speaker 1: But I started doing this back when we talked about it,

641
00:30:56,327 --> 00:30:58,127
Speaker 1: and I have friends live all over.

642
00:30:58,007 --> 00:31:00,327
Speaker 6: The world and we do video or audio.

643
00:31:00,847 --> 00:31:03,127
Speaker 1: Just in audio, I do a little voice note and

644
00:31:03,287 --> 00:31:07,687
Speaker 1: for maybe two weeks we did it, and then I

645
00:31:07,807 --> 00:31:10,087
Speaker 1: was like, well, I don't want to end shiate every time,

646
00:31:10,087 --> 00:31:11,647
Speaker 1: and I feel like this hasn't caught on, and now

647
00:31:11,687 --> 00:31:14,487
Speaker 1: we've completely lost it. I noticed that someone said, then,

648
00:31:14,527 --> 00:31:16,807
Speaker 1: been doing it for two weeks. There is no way

649
00:31:16,927 --> 00:31:18,927
Speaker 1: that in one month we're all going to be doing this.

650
00:31:19,007 --> 00:31:20,967
Speaker 1: It is far too much of a commitment. We're going

651
00:31:21,007 --> 00:31:24,607
Speaker 1: to get bored with the mundane details of everyone's lives.

652
00:31:24,807 --> 00:31:26,767
Speaker 4: Yes, actually I think it's going to be.

653
00:31:26,807 --> 00:31:29,047
Speaker 6: Kind of more random. What do you think, Holly?

654
00:31:29,567 --> 00:31:32,447
Speaker 2: This is just so main character to me, Like, let

655
00:31:32,487 --> 00:31:36,047
Speaker 2: me do a monologue about what's happening in my life

656
00:31:36,367 --> 00:31:39,447
Speaker 2: to send to you every Wednesday. Like, I get it,

657
00:31:39,447 --> 00:31:42,407
Speaker 2: it's really important to retain connection, and I get that

658
00:31:42,447 --> 00:31:45,567
Speaker 2: phone calls can blow out, But the idea that we're

659
00:31:45,607 --> 00:31:49,807
Speaker 2: all so addicted to monologuing and presenting them little bits

660
00:31:49,807 --> 00:31:51,527
Speaker 2: of our lives is deeply interesting.

661
00:31:51,727 --> 00:31:54,327
Speaker 1: I just be issue we should be less like that,

662
00:31:54,447 --> 00:31:56,687
Speaker 1: not more like nobody that you miss them.

663
00:31:56,767 --> 00:31:57,407
Speaker 4: They find.

664
00:31:57,807 --> 00:32:01,007
Speaker 3: The thing that gives you close connections with people is

665
00:32:01,127 --> 00:32:03,967
Speaker 3: actually the little things, is knowing the little things about

666
00:32:04,007 --> 00:32:06,727
Speaker 3: each other's lives. And because so many of us, even

667
00:32:06,807 --> 00:32:09,647
Speaker 3: you know my friends who I live in this city,

668
00:32:09,727 --> 00:32:13,607
Speaker 3: as I don't see very often. Everyone's really busy. But

669
00:32:13,647 --> 00:32:16,687
Speaker 3: I think what it speaks to also is our absolute

670
00:32:17,327 --> 00:32:22,087
Speaker 3: resistance and inability to have back and forth. Nobody wants

671
00:32:22,087 --> 00:32:26,127
Speaker 3: to be interrupted anymore. Everyone's lost the ability to have

672
00:32:26,167 --> 00:32:28,527
Speaker 3: a conversation, and that's why we don't answer our phones.

673
00:32:28,967 --> 00:32:31,767
Speaker 3: That's why we don't want to have a two hour

674
00:32:31,807 --> 00:32:34,327
Speaker 3: conversation because it's true, it blows out. So it's like,

675
00:32:34,487 --> 00:32:36,607
Speaker 3: let's just have a series of monologues. And so I'm

676
00:32:36,687 --> 00:32:41,367
Speaker 3: very interested in what that means about how our brains develop,

677
00:32:41,567 --> 00:32:44,407
Speaker 3: and for younger people as well, because the thing about

678
00:32:44,447 --> 00:32:47,687
Speaker 3: monologuing as well, and waffling, you can't read the signs

679
00:32:47,727 --> 00:32:51,807
Speaker 3: that someone's bored of what you're saying, so you don't

680
00:32:51,807 --> 00:32:52,367
Speaker 3: need there's no.

681
00:32:52,447 --> 00:32:54,967
Speaker 2: Editing because you're a spot on me about all those things.

682
00:32:55,007 --> 00:32:56,887
Speaker 2: And that's why I worry about it. I'm like, we

683
00:32:56,967 --> 00:32:59,727
Speaker 2: need to actually get better at talking to each other

684
00:32:59,927 --> 00:33:02,967
Speaker 2: rather vice like I'm just going to talk at you

685
00:33:02,967 --> 00:33:04,607
Speaker 2: for three minutes and then you're going to talk at

686
00:33:04,647 --> 00:33:06,607
Speaker 2: me for three minutes. It's like, remember when we used

687
00:33:06,647 --> 00:33:08,567
Speaker 2: to Like I don't want to say remember when it

688
00:33:08,607 --> 00:33:10,647
Speaker 2: makes me sound like old lady, but like you do,

689
00:33:10,687 --> 00:33:11,927
Speaker 2: you know that should be encouraged.

690
00:33:11,967 --> 00:33:14,607
Speaker 1: We're gonna lose the rhythm of conversation because you're exactly right.

691
00:33:14,687 --> 00:33:16,287
Speaker 1: You can tell by a flick of the eye or

692
00:33:16,327 --> 00:33:19,247
Speaker 1: a crust of the legs at someone or that someone goes,

693
00:33:19,287 --> 00:33:21,007
Speaker 1: look if you actually tell me the story before and

694
00:33:21,047 --> 00:33:23,647
Speaker 1: instead I'm stuck listening to a fucking waffle where I'm like,

695
00:33:23,767 --> 00:33:24,687
Speaker 1: this is, I.

696
00:33:24,607 --> 00:33:27,767
Speaker 6: Don't give shit that you'd like spilt your coffee.

697
00:33:27,847 --> 00:33:29,527
Speaker 1: You wouldn't tell me this in person because I'd be

698
00:33:29,647 --> 00:33:31,367
Speaker 1: giving you visual cues that I don't care.

699
00:33:31,727 --> 00:33:33,967
Speaker 3: After the break, we're going to monologue at you some

700
00:33:34,007 --> 00:33:37,567
Speaker 3: more about Sabrina Carpenter and all the children at her

701
00:33:37,607 --> 00:33:39,487
Speaker 3: concert who have to hide their eyes.

702
00:33:40,167 --> 00:33:43,927
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

703
00:33:43,967 --> 00:33:48,047
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

704
00:33:48,047 --> 00:33:49,807
Speaker 2: in the show notes to get us in your ears

705
00:33:50,087 --> 00:33:52,807
Speaker 2: five days a week. And a huge thank you to

706
00:33:53,007 --> 00:33:54,927
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.

707
00:33:58,847 --> 00:34:01,567
Speaker 4: How young is too young to learn what a sex

708
00:34:01,607 --> 00:34:03,127
Speaker 4: position is? Well?

709
00:34:03,207 --> 00:34:06,367
Speaker 3: Sabrina Carpenter, who is her self twenty five, is currently

710
00:34:06,407 --> 00:34:10,007
Speaker 3: touring the world with her live concert called Shit and Sweet.

711
00:34:10,567 --> 00:34:14,727
Speaker 3: And in the concert she performs this song called bed Kem.

712
00:34:15,207 --> 00:34:17,887
Speaker 3: It's about bed chemistry. I could sing it for you,

713
00:34:17,967 --> 00:34:19,807
Speaker 3: but here is a little clip of her singing it

714
00:34:19,847 --> 00:34:21,087
Speaker 3: because I'm not allowed.

715
00:34:23,927 --> 00:34:34,087
Speaker 4: Head I am there. Yeah, I love it bed Cam

716
00:34:34,167 --> 00:34:36,207
Speaker 4: bed chemistry. It sounds curt and sweet.

717
00:34:36,247 --> 00:34:38,967
Speaker 1: I love that song, but's a single lyric.

718
00:34:39,167 --> 00:34:39,767
Speaker 6: Was it naughty?

719
00:34:40,127 --> 00:34:42,007
Speaker 3: It's not about the lyrics of the song, although she

720
00:34:42,007 --> 00:34:44,487
Speaker 3: does have other songs where she talks about being fucking horny.

721
00:34:44,527 --> 00:34:47,407
Speaker 3: But in the performance of bed Kem, she's on a bed.

722
00:34:47,567 --> 00:34:49,607
Speaker 3: She's kind of wearing these little baby droll dresses and

723
00:34:49,687 --> 00:34:54,567
Speaker 3: nineties and sexy undies. That's her costume for the whole show.

724
00:34:55,327 --> 00:34:58,967
Speaker 3: And she's wearing a little nightgown in this and at

725
00:34:58,967 --> 00:35:02,167
Speaker 3: the end of the song sheer curtains clothes and we

726
00:35:02,207 --> 00:35:05,047
Speaker 3: can see Sabrina and a man take off their clothes

727
00:35:05,087 --> 00:35:08,607
Speaker 3: and then they simulate a sex position and it changes

728
00:35:09,007 --> 00:35:12,167
Speaker 3: at each concert. Litistrek a little easter eg And it

729
00:35:12,207 --> 00:35:15,167
Speaker 3: also means that you know, Taylor Swift has her surprise songs.

730
00:35:15,207 --> 00:35:17,287
Speaker 3: Because from a marketing point of view, in this social

731
00:35:17,327 --> 00:35:20,367
Speaker 3: media age, how do you stay relevant and keep people

732
00:35:20,367 --> 00:35:22,127
Speaker 3: interested in your concert, You've got to have something in

733
00:35:22,127 --> 00:35:24,327
Speaker 3: each one that's a little bit different, and so this

734
00:35:24,447 --> 00:35:26,967
Speaker 3: is her a little bit different thing. She's had a

735
00:35:27,007 --> 00:35:28,967
Speaker 3: lot of concerts, so there's a lot of sex positions

736
00:35:28,967 --> 00:35:31,647
Speaker 3: that she has to come up with. But there's a

737
00:35:31,727 --> 00:35:35,127
Speaker 3: whole movement of people who were very upset about this

738
00:35:35,647 --> 00:35:38,807
Speaker 3: because they took their children to the concert and they

739
00:35:38,807 --> 00:35:40,727
Speaker 3: don't like the fact that there's a sex scene in it.

740
00:35:40,807 --> 00:35:43,687
Speaker 3: So people are like, I'm outraged my seven year old

741
00:35:43,687 --> 00:35:46,767
Speaker 3: sister attended this concert and was exposed to these vile acts.

742
00:35:47,047 --> 00:35:50,807
Speaker 3: This is downright dirty behavior. And then other people saying

743
00:35:50,847 --> 00:35:53,047
Speaker 3: I cannot be the only person that finds her doing

744
00:35:53,047 --> 00:35:56,447
Speaker 3: this in front of an audience full of children inappropriate. Now,

745
00:35:56,687 --> 00:35:59,447
Speaker 3: a little bit of backstory. Sabrina Carpenter used to be

746
00:35:59,487 --> 00:36:01,727
Speaker 3: on the Disney Channel. She was on girl Mates World

747
00:36:02,207 --> 00:36:06,007
Speaker 3: until twenty seventeen, and there's also been a seventeen year old.

748
00:36:06,007 --> 00:36:08,727
Speaker 3: This went viral a few weeks ago. She said that

749
00:36:08,767 --> 00:36:11,887
Speaker 3: she's scared of Sabrina Carpenter because a lot of people

750
00:36:11,927 --> 00:36:15,327
Speaker 3: are saying, well, there shouldn't be children at pop concerts anyway,

751
00:36:15,447 --> 00:36:18,487
Speaker 3: She's an adult performer. She's twenty five years old, she's

752
00:36:18,487 --> 00:36:22,447
Speaker 3: not a wiggle, and this seventeen year old posted you

753
00:36:22,487 --> 00:36:25,087
Speaker 3: guys are disgusting and weird for defending a literal weirdo.

754
00:36:25,207 --> 00:36:28,327
Speaker 3: I'm seventeen and afraid of Sabrina Carpenter when she's performing.

755
00:36:28,487 --> 00:36:32,487
Speaker 3: You guys need help. I have a question, when did

756
00:36:32,527 --> 00:36:36,327
Speaker 3: concerts and pop stars become a thing for seven year

757
00:36:36,367 --> 00:36:37,567
Speaker 3: olds and little children.

758
00:36:38,287 --> 00:36:41,327
Speaker 1: I have a few theories about this. My first theory

759
00:36:41,927 --> 00:36:44,087
Speaker 1: is that back when you had to go and buy

760
00:36:44,127 --> 00:36:46,327
Speaker 1: an album, there was a barrier to entry, and that

761
00:36:46,447 --> 00:36:49,287
Speaker 1: was money and also getting to the shop, and so

762
00:36:49,807 --> 00:36:52,207
Speaker 1: my mum had to buy me the album in order

763
00:36:52,247 --> 00:36:55,567
Speaker 1: for me to listen to the music. Now, I was

764
00:36:55,767 --> 00:36:58,847
Speaker 1: reading this data on how much even like five to

765
00:36:58,887 --> 00:37:01,127
Speaker 1: ten year olds are listening to music, and sometimes it's

766
00:37:01,167 --> 00:37:04,727
Speaker 1: four hours a day, right, and there's no barrier. So

767
00:37:05,567 --> 00:37:10,167
Speaker 1: they're buying to music and soelebrities and whether or not

768
00:37:10,167 --> 00:37:13,687
Speaker 1: they listened to Sabrina Carpenter really really matters, and in fact,

769
00:37:14,087 --> 00:37:17,367
Speaker 1: it sort of doesn't matter whether their parents endorse them

770
00:37:17,407 --> 00:37:20,127
Speaker 1: liking it or not, because it's a relationship between them

771
00:37:20,127 --> 00:37:23,047
Speaker 1: and their Spotify account. So that's the first thing is

772
00:37:23,087 --> 00:37:26,967
Speaker 1: that they're being marketed to. The second thing is that

773
00:37:27,407 --> 00:37:32,327
Speaker 1: I was reading this sociologist who said that the notion

774
00:37:32,447 --> 00:37:36,487
Speaker 1: of childhood is socially constructed and the distinction between childhood

775
00:37:36,487 --> 00:37:41,087
Speaker 1: and adulthood is characterized by possession and access to knowledge.

776
00:37:41,527 --> 00:37:44,287
Speaker 1: So historically it was that children like obviously there's a

777
00:37:44,287 --> 00:37:47,527
Speaker 1: biological element, but really we see children as understanding one

778
00:37:47,527 --> 00:37:50,527
Speaker 1: thing and adults is understanding another. And in the nineties

779
00:37:50,527 --> 00:37:54,407
Speaker 1: there was this boom between sensations and it was Disney

780
00:37:54,447 --> 00:37:56,967
Speaker 1: and it was Nickelodeon and into the two thousands, right,

781
00:37:57,727 --> 00:38:00,487
Speaker 1: And it was because there was control over what we watched.

782
00:38:00,687 --> 00:38:02,847
Speaker 1: I would sit there and watch the kids channels because

783
00:38:03,007 --> 00:38:04,607
Speaker 1: I knew that they were marketed as me, and I

784
00:38:04,647 --> 00:38:09,727
Speaker 1: was a specific marketing demographic. Now there's this fling of

785
00:38:09,767 --> 00:38:12,727
Speaker 1: all knowledge that if a five or an eight or

786
00:38:12,767 --> 00:38:15,407
Speaker 1: a ten year old can access pornography on their phone,

787
00:38:16,167 --> 00:38:20,207
Speaker 1: is there that much of a difference between what kids

788
00:38:20,247 --> 00:38:23,407
Speaker 1: and what adults are actually consuming. And so there's this

789
00:38:23,567 --> 00:38:27,807
Speaker 1: theory that tweens and teens are sort of evaporating, and

790
00:38:27,847 --> 00:38:31,207
Speaker 1: we've gone from having that liminal space where you kind

791
00:38:31,207 --> 00:38:32,647
Speaker 1: of try and work out who you are and have

792
00:38:32,727 --> 00:38:35,847
Speaker 1: particular trends or think of like one direction or whatever

793
00:38:35,887 --> 00:38:38,927
Speaker 1: aimed at you is now like you kind of just

794
00:38:39,007 --> 00:38:41,887
Speaker 1: go straight to adulthood. So I don't know if the

795
00:38:41,887 --> 00:38:46,607
Speaker 1: Sabrina Carpenters, if those big machines care anymore, like whether

796
00:38:46,687 --> 00:38:47,527
Speaker 1: you've got kids adults.

797
00:38:47,767 --> 00:38:49,927
Speaker 2: I don't think it's new at all. You know, Madonna

798
00:38:49,927 --> 00:38:52,807
Speaker 2: did it, Miley Cyrus certainly did it. Pop stars have

799
00:38:52,887 --> 00:38:55,127
Speaker 2: always done really, really sexy shows. I went to a

800
00:38:55,127 --> 00:38:57,407
Speaker 2: Britney Spears concert once and it was like a BDSM.

801
00:38:57,567 --> 00:38:59,847
Speaker 4: It was fun. I was like, oh my goodness, I

802
00:38:59,847 --> 00:39:01,527
Speaker 4: didn't know you could do that with a whip and

803
00:39:01,607 --> 00:39:03,847
Speaker 4: some nipple tassels and that was like a snake.

804
00:39:04,367 --> 00:39:05,487
Speaker 6: Do you think there were kids there?

805
00:39:05,647 --> 00:39:08,727
Speaker 2: They were definitely kids there, right. And the thing is is,

806
00:39:08,807 --> 00:39:12,607
Speaker 2: I think, you know, Miley, Madonna, Britney Spears, they've always

807
00:39:12,607 --> 00:39:14,807
Speaker 2: played with sex like it's not a new thing. The

808
00:39:14,887 --> 00:39:17,807
Speaker 2: thing I find about Sabrina Carpenter is I find it

809
00:39:17,967 --> 00:39:22,967
Speaker 2: deeply cynical because everything about her is designed to appeal

810
00:39:22,967 --> 00:39:25,847
Speaker 2: to a little girl, Like she's tiny, the way she's

811
00:39:25,887 --> 00:39:28,167
Speaker 2: pretty in the way that little white girls like to

812
00:39:28,167 --> 00:39:30,367
Speaker 2: be pretty. You know, she's blonde and little, and she

813
00:39:30,367 --> 00:39:33,487
Speaker 2: wears sparkly pink things, and she's got feathers and she's

814
00:39:33,487 --> 00:39:36,767
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, she's very she's exactly like

815
00:39:36,847 --> 00:39:40,727
Speaker 2: little feathery, you know, like on her neglige, Like everything's

816
00:39:40,727 --> 00:39:44,087
Speaker 2: so pretty and cutesy, and that's her whole vibe. And

817
00:39:44,127 --> 00:39:46,807
Speaker 2: then the thing that's made her current and exciting is

818
00:39:46,847 --> 00:39:51,727
Speaker 2: they've added this sweary, sexual edge to the little girl element.

819
00:39:52,327 --> 00:39:53,567
Speaker 4: There's nothing new about that.

820
00:39:53,647 --> 00:39:57,127
Speaker 2: It's so kind of cynical to me and such a

821
00:39:57,207 --> 00:39:59,447
Speaker 2: throwback that I think her songs are great and I

822
00:39:59,607 --> 00:40:03,527
Speaker 2: like them, but it is literally marketed to little girls.

823
00:40:03,887 --> 00:40:06,367
Speaker 2: It's not surprising at all that her concerts are full

824
00:40:06,407 --> 00:40:08,887
Speaker 2: of little girls. Personally, I'm not clutching my pills about.

825
00:40:08,647 --> 00:40:11,327
Speaker 3: It because wait, wait, I don't think it's marketed to

826
00:40:11,367 --> 00:40:16,087
Speaker 3: little girls. I think it's marketed to adults. It's the

827
00:40:16,087 --> 00:40:22,007
Speaker 3: fetishization of a particular esthetic. It's not actually marketed to

828
00:40:22,087 --> 00:40:22,607
Speaker 3: little girls.

829
00:40:22,647 --> 00:40:25,567
Speaker 2: Because if you sweep up in, that's all the little girls.

830
00:40:25,567 --> 00:40:27,007
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, no, totally I agree with that.

831
00:40:27,447 --> 00:40:28,967
Speaker 3: Like if you look at the clip that you did

832
00:40:28,967 --> 00:40:31,607
Speaker 3: for Taste with General O Tager, where I was clutching

833
00:40:31,647 --> 00:40:34,607
Speaker 3: my pearls about that because it was so violent and

834
00:40:34,647 --> 00:40:35,887
Speaker 3: it was so graphic.

835
00:40:36,527 --> 00:40:37,367
Speaker 4: I think you're right.

836
00:40:37,487 --> 00:40:40,487
Speaker 3: It's the cutesiness of the little girl that adults have

837
00:40:40,567 --> 00:40:43,287
Speaker 3: always sort of played to that and even Madonna, but

838
00:40:43,407 --> 00:40:45,967
Speaker 3: with the edginess and the sex, and it's kind of

839
00:40:46,007 --> 00:40:47,927
Speaker 3: a bit sick in the way because it's like, I'm

840
00:40:47,967 --> 00:40:49,567
Speaker 3: a little girl, but you can have sex with me.

841
00:40:49,607 --> 00:40:53,287
Speaker 3: I'm also really naughty, like the sexy school girl. But

842
00:40:53,487 --> 00:40:56,647
Speaker 3: to me, what this speaks of is that not everything

843
00:40:57,047 --> 00:41:02,407
Speaker 3: is for everyone, and this expectation that I should have

844
00:41:02,527 --> 00:41:05,287
Speaker 3: the right to bring my seven year old and have

845
00:41:05,407 --> 00:41:08,367
Speaker 3: a particular type of show because I want to bring

846
00:41:08,407 --> 00:41:10,967
Speaker 3: my seven year old. It might not be for you,

847
00:41:11,167 --> 00:41:13,127
Speaker 3: or maybe the music is for you, but the video

848
00:41:13,167 --> 00:41:14,127
Speaker 3: clips aren't for you.

849
00:41:14,207 --> 00:41:16,327
Speaker 2: I think they want you to bring your seven year olds.

850
00:41:16,407 --> 00:41:17,887
Speaker 4: Yeah I did too. I think See one.

851
00:41:17,887 --> 00:41:19,887
Speaker 2: Hundred percent wants you to do. Like looking at the

852
00:41:19,927 --> 00:41:24,007
Speaker 2: American tiktoks about this, the concert is full of children.

853
00:41:24,047 --> 00:41:26,527
Speaker 2: It's not just the occasional parent who's brought their kid

854
00:41:26,567 --> 00:41:28,407
Speaker 2: and like that parent maybe shouldn't have brought their kid.

855
00:41:28,887 --> 00:41:30,527
Speaker 2: The whole place is full of kids who are all

856
00:41:30,567 --> 00:41:34,727
Speaker 2: dressed up like Sabrina and it's a family event. But personally,

857
00:41:34,807 --> 00:41:37,167
Speaker 2: I'm not clutching my pills about the sexual content because

858
00:41:37,207 --> 00:41:38,127
Speaker 2: I don't think.

859
00:41:38,007 --> 00:41:40,607
Speaker 4: The kids get it right, whether yeah, whether or not.

860
00:41:40,607 --> 00:41:43,047
Speaker 2: It's going in subliminally and there will be tiktoks in

861
00:41:43,127 --> 00:41:45,527
Speaker 2: four years that are like my mum took me to

862
00:41:45,607 --> 00:41:47,367
Speaker 2: see Sabrina Carpenter and I loved it.

863
00:41:47,327 --> 00:41:48,607
Speaker 4: But now I think about it.

864
00:41:48,767 --> 00:41:51,447
Speaker 2: She was singing about like riding that guy till she

865
00:41:51,567 --> 00:41:57,887
Speaker 2: was sore. I think I think that with retrospect, those

866
00:41:57,967 --> 00:42:00,047
Speaker 2: kids will go oh, but at the minute they don't

867
00:42:00,087 --> 00:42:02,487
Speaker 2: get it, they don't understand it, so really to make

868
00:42:02,567 --> 00:42:05,607
Speaker 2: it point out to them how inappropriate it is, it's

869
00:42:05,647 --> 00:42:08,007
Speaker 2: a different thing. I look at her and I think

870
00:42:08,047 --> 00:42:10,327
Speaker 2: her songs are a bop, but I'm like, it's so

871
00:42:10,407 --> 00:42:12,127
Speaker 2: cynical because there was a gap for this.

872
00:42:12,327 --> 00:42:12,487
Speaker 4: Right.

873
00:42:12,567 --> 00:42:14,407
Speaker 2: If you think about the fact that all the biggest

874
00:42:14,447 --> 00:42:16,087
Speaker 2: artists in the world at the moment of female which

875
00:42:16,127 --> 00:42:18,887
Speaker 2: is great, Taylor Swift rules the world. She's not this,

876
00:42:19,207 --> 00:42:21,807
Speaker 2: She's not talking like that at her shows. That's not

877
00:42:21,847 --> 00:42:24,927
Speaker 2: what she does. Beyonce does, but she's much older and

878
00:42:25,007 --> 00:42:27,767
Speaker 2: much more established, so she's not gonna sweep up that crowd.

879
00:42:28,447 --> 00:42:31,447
Speaker 2: Not Billie Eilish's thing to do like Dua Lipa does

880
00:42:31,487 --> 00:42:32,847
Speaker 2: a little bit of that whatever. But there was a

881
00:42:32,887 --> 00:42:37,407
Speaker 2: really good space for sexy kittenish girl and she's nailed it.

882
00:42:37,607 --> 00:42:40,367
Speaker 1: And as you say, it's a playbook that has existed before.

883
00:42:40,407 --> 00:42:42,367
Speaker 1: In terms of I think Miley Cyrus is probably the

884
00:42:42,367 --> 00:42:46,327
Speaker 1: best example going from a Disney star to an adult

885
00:42:46,327 --> 00:42:50,207
Speaker 1: who wants to make different music. But what's interesting is

886
00:42:50,247 --> 00:42:53,167
Speaker 1: that there are Disney male stars who are doing exactly

887
00:42:53,207 --> 00:42:56,167
Speaker 1: the same thing. So there's one guy named Ross Lynch.

888
00:42:56,207 --> 00:42:58,607
Speaker 1: The fact I've never heard of him probably says it all.

889
00:42:58,967 --> 00:43:02,327
Speaker 1: But even Troy Savahn, who is a young guy who

890
00:43:02,407 --> 00:43:04,847
Speaker 1: appeals to a lot of young people recently, who was

891
00:43:04,887 --> 00:43:08,247
Speaker 1: at a concert and simulated a sex move, like one

892
00:43:08,247 --> 00:43:10,447
Speaker 1: of the dancers was holding a microphone and he's growing

893
00:43:10,487 --> 00:43:11,247
Speaker 1: and he got down.

894
00:43:11,047 --> 00:43:11,607
Speaker 6: On his knees.

895
00:43:12,007 --> 00:43:15,367
Speaker 1: We do not have the same moral panic about men

896
00:43:15,527 --> 00:43:20,087
Speaker 1: being hyper sexual because it is seen as women's job

897
00:43:20,567 --> 00:43:23,247
Speaker 1: to raise the next generation. Women need to be looking

898
00:43:23,327 --> 00:43:25,967
Speaker 1: out for children, whether or not they have children. It's

899
00:43:26,007 --> 00:43:28,687
Speaker 1: like their job to make sure that all children are

900
00:43:28,727 --> 00:43:29,607
Speaker 1: safe at all times.

901
00:43:29,927 --> 00:43:32,367
Speaker 3: Which but there was there was moral panic about Elvis.

902
00:43:32,407 --> 00:43:35,087
Speaker 3: He was called Elvis the pelvis because the way he

903
00:43:35,167 --> 00:43:37,567
Speaker 3: thrusted was seen as you know.

904
00:43:37,607 --> 00:43:40,847
Speaker 1: Absolutely, But I think the moral panic was about what

905
00:43:40,887 --> 00:43:42,247
Speaker 1: it stirred up in young women.

906
00:43:42,447 --> 00:43:43,407
Speaker 6: Yes, because young.

907
00:43:43,287 --> 00:43:45,167
Speaker 4: Women were feeling humpy umpy.

908
00:43:45,367 --> 00:43:47,127
Speaker 1: I think as well that the Sabrina thing, I mean,

909
00:43:47,127 --> 00:43:49,087
Speaker 1: that's just capitalism, right. If you are going to be

910
00:43:49,287 --> 00:43:52,287
Speaker 1: a star. I've heard it said about if you want

911
00:43:52,327 --> 00:43:54,247
Speaker 1: to be one of the biggest stars in the world,

912
00:43:54,567 --> 00:43:57,767
Speaker 1: you cannot have one demographic. You need coming to your

913
00:43:57,807 --> 00:44:00,727
Speaker 1: concerts five year olds and fifty year olds. And in

914
00:44:00,807 --> 00:44:04,327
Speaker 1: order to do that, I mean, the capitalist machine will

915
00:44:04,327 --> 00:44:06,567
Speaker 1: decide whether or not this is a good move for

916
00:44:06,607 --> 00:44:09,527
Speaker 1: Sabrina Carpenter because if I start to go, I've seen

917
00:44:09,567 --> 00:44:11,247
Speaker 1: all these forums pop up and it's like should I

918
00:44:11,247 --> 00:44:13,647
Speaker 1: take my seven year old daughter or shouldn't I. If

919
00:44:13,647 --> 00:44:17,287
Speaker 1: people stop, then that's money. But I do think that

920
00:44:17,527 --> 00:44:21,327
Speaker 1: now with the way streaming works and with the music industry, yeah,

921
00:44:21,367 --> 00:44:22,967
Speaker 1: you're not targeting a demo anymore.

922
00:44:23,007 --> 00:44:24,567
Speaker 6: You are targeting everyone.

923
00:44:24,767 --> 00:44:27,327
Speaker 3: It's quite tricky though, because if I go to a concert,

924
00:44:27,367 --> 00:44:29,247
Speaker 3: and remember there was a lot of controversy around this

925
00:44:29,287 --> 00:44:31,727
Speaker 3: about Taylor Swift, that people were taking their toddlers and

926
00:44:31,767 --> 00:44:33,647
Speaker 3: they were like it's so hard to get tickets and

927
00:44:33,647 --> 00:44:39,847
Speaker 3: your toddler's asleep, wake your toddler up, dimish. But I

928
00:44:39,887 --> 00:44:43,007
Speaker 3: actually think what's interesting about this is I want to

929
00:44:43,007 --> 00:44:46,087
Speaker 3: bring it back to me. Of course, because I had

930
00:44:46,087 --> 00:44:49,407
Speaker 3: to do a speech this week for my daughter's old school.

931
00:44:49,567 --> 00:44:51,967
Speaker 3: It was their speech night, and I went and got

932
00:44:51,967 --> 00:44:53,767
Speaker 3: my brief from the head mistress. I was very nervous

933
00:44:53,767 --> 00:44:55,487
Speaker 3: about it. And one of the most difficult things and

934
00:44:55,487 --> 00:44:57,207
Speaker 3: why it was one of the hardest writing tasks I've

935
00:44:57,207 --> 00:45:00,287
Speaker 3: ever done, is that there were girls there from year

936
00:45:00,367 --> 00:45:05,167
Speaker 3: three to year twelve, and there were parents and their parents,

937
00:45:05,887 --> 00:45:09,127
Speaker 3: and so there were like three generations that I have

938
00:45:09,407 --> 00:45:12,327
Speaker 3: to mop up, and I wanted to be cool for

939
00:45:12,407 --> 00:45:13,327
Speaker 3: the older girls.

940
00:45:14,247 --> 00:45:14,927
Speaker 4: I had to be careful.

941
00:45:14,927 --> 00:45:16,727
Speaker 3: I didn't know if I wanted to say the word abortion.

942
00:45:17,367 --> 00:45:19,047
Speaker 3: You know, there were things that I wanted to say

943
00:45:19,607 --> 00:45:22,367
Speaker 3: that were really important, but I was like, oh, I

944
00:45:22,407 --> 00:45:23,927
Speaker 3: don't know if I can say that, and I think

945
00:45:23,927 --> 00:45:26,167
Speaker 3: I used the word sex and then I'd be like.

946
00:45:26,087 --> 00:45:26,607
Speaker 4: Oh, there.

947
00:45:26,647 --> 00:45:28,847
Speaker 3: And it was really really hard because I didn't know

948
00:45:28,887 --> 00:45:31,167
Speaker 3: where to pitch it at. And if you pitch it

949
00:45:31,207 --> 00:45:35,927
Speaker 3: at the youngest people, it's not cool and it's not interesting.

950
00:45:36,167 --> 00:45:39,447
Speaker 3: I empathize with Sabrina, and I think that if she

951
00:45:39,567 --> 00:45:41,727
Speaker 3: wasn't a bit edgy, and you're at a concert and

952
00:45:41,727 --> 00:45:43,527
Speaker 3: you look around and they're a bunch of seven year olds,

953
00:45:43,527 --> 00:45:44,327
Speaker 3: you're like, I don't want to go.

954
00:45:44,327 --> 00:45:46,367
Speaker 4: To the Wiggles, Like that's what the Wiggles is for.

955
00:45:46,407 --> 00:45:49,247
Speaker 2: But I think it's I mean, I haven't heard Sabrina

956
00:45:49,287 --> 00:45:50,927
Speaker 2: Carpenter say this at all, but I've heard lots of

957
00:45:50,967 --> 00:45:53,287
Speaker 2: other artists say this, which I think is disingenuous. Where

958
00:45:53,287 --> 00:45:55,767
Speaker 2: they go when people push back and say you shouldn't

959
00:45:55,807 --> 00:45:57,607
Speaker 2: be writhing on that bed when there are seven year

960
00:45:57,607 --> 00:46:00,087
Speaker 2: old there. They say, it's not my responsibility to raise

961
00:46:00,087 --> 00:46:02,047
Speaker 2: your kids, and I'm like, I one hundred percent.

962
00:46:01,807 --> 00:46:02,407
Speaker 4: Agree with that.

963
00:46:02,727 --> 00:46:06,087
Speaker 2: However, if you are directly marketing to my kids, it's

964
00:46:06,087 --> 00:46:08,487
Speaker 2: disingenuous of you to just stand back and go okay

965
00:46:08,487 --> 00:46:11,367
Speaker 2: and no responsibility. It's like, you know, I don't know.

966
00:46:11,407 --> 00:46:14,127
Speaker 2: I find it kind of interesting because you could say

967
00:46:14,127 --> 00:46:16,527
Speaker 2: it was an adult's only show, like you actually could.

968
00:46:16,647 --> 00:46:18,527
Speaker 2: You could say no kids if you wanted to.

969
00:46:18,607 --> 00:46:20,167
Speaker 1: Yeah, it says on the ticket for a lot of

970
00:46:20,167 --> 00:46:21,887
Speaker 1: things who it's appropriate for.

971
00:46:22,247 --> 00:46:25,327
Speaker 3: When we're touring, we have to talk about it's not

972
00:46:25,407 --> 00:46:28,847
Speaker 3: quite ratings, but some people are asking for trigger warnings

973
00:46:29,127 --> 00:46:32,167
Speaker 3: before concerts. Should there be trigger warnings on concerts where

974
00:46:32,167 --> 00:46:34,167
Speaker 3: they talk about if it's sexually explicit or not?

975
00:46:34,487 --> 00:46:36,967
Speaker 2: A massive thank you, out Louders, I think we've solved

976
00:46:37,007 --> 00:46:38,087
Speaker 2: a lot of problems today.

977
00:46:38,247 --> 00:46:40,487
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we have a massive.

978
00:46:40,127 --> 00:46:42,167
Speaker 2: Thank you to all of you for being here with us,

979
00:46:42,207 --> 00:46:44,087
Speaker 2: and of course to our fabulous team for putting this

980
00:46:44,087 --> 00:46:44,607
Speaker 2: show together.

981
00:46:44,687 --> 00:46:46,727
Speaker 4: We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow.

982
00:46:46,487 --> 00:46:49,327
Speaker 1: Out loud as we're in the thick of socializing season.

983
00:46:49,407 --> 00:46:52,047
Speaker 1: We're in December. I'm sure you have lots of parties

984
00:46:52,087 --> 00:46:55,887
Speaker 1: coming up. And on yesterday's subscriber episode, Maya m. Vernamon

985
00:46:55,927 --> 00:46:59,767
Speaker 1: I unpacked the right etiquette for hosting, but also how

986
00:46:59,807 --> 00:47:02,167
Speaker 1: to be a good guest if I had a lot

987
00:47:02,167 --> 00:47:04,367
Speaker 1: of people over. And that's also about the amount of people, right,

988
00:47:04,407 --> 00:47:06,167
Speaker 1: because we have ten people in your house and you're

989
00:47:06,287 --> 00:47:08,767
Speaker 1: ordering over eats, you're looking at two hundred rucks easily

990
00:47:08,887 --> 00:47:14,007
Speaker 1: modern yeah, collause to three hundred dollars probably in that instance.

991
00:47:13,527 --> 00:47:15,167
Speaker 3: Because you wouldn't go to a restaurant and pay three

992
00:47:15,207 --> 00:47:16,127
Speaker 3: hundred dollars for a mente.

993
00:47:16,127 --> 00:47:18,847
Speaker 1: No, no, And it's not like it's a birthday celebration,

994
00:47:19,127 --> 00:47:22,407
Speaker 1: Like it's just having mates over, Like with Claire and

995
00:47:22,447 --> 00:47:23,247
Speaker 1: her husband all the time.

996
00:47:23,247 --> 00:47:25,927
Speaker 6: I'd just be like transferred me meet Yeah, that's your sister.

997
00:47:26,167 --> 00:47:29,207
Speaker 2: But also like the setting of the dinner, so if

998
00:47:29,207 --> 00:47:31,847
Speaker 2: it's a formal dinner party, like we're dressing up, there's

999
00:47:31,847 --> 00:47:34,167
Speaker 2: a lot of discussion about it. Yeah, group already in

1000
00:47:34,207 --> 00:47:35,967
Speaker 2: the out louders group out Louders, So you've got to

1001
00:47:35,967 --> 00:47:37,007
Speaker 2: go listen, so you can wait.

1002
00:47:37,287 --> 00:47:40,287
Speaker 1: As always, there's a link in the show notes. Bye bye.

1003
00:47:41,527 --> 00:47:44,447
Speaker 1: Shout out to any Mum and MEA subscribers listening. If

1004
00:47:44,487 --> 00:47:46,447
Speaker 1: you love the show and you want to support us,

1005
00:47:46,687 --> 00:47:49,487
Speaker 1: subscribing to Mum and Mia is the very best way

1006
00:47:49,527 --> 00:47:52,087
Speaker 1: to do so. There's a link in the episode description.