WEBVTT - Judy Malinowski Testified At Her Own Murder Trial 0:00:11.582 --> 0:00:16.182 You're listening to a Mother Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges 0:00:16.222 --> 0:00:19.702 the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was 0:00:19.742 --> 0:00:28.862 recorded on It's just after five PM on an August 0:00:28.902 --> 0:00:31.982 afternoon in twenty fifteen, and a nine one one call 0:00:32.062 --> 0:00:33.982 is coming through about a fire and a service station 0:00:34.062 --> 0:00:35.142 in Columbus, Ohio. 0:00:37.342 --> 0:00:43.542 I got, Okay, stop screaming because I can't understand you. 0:00:43.582 --> 0:00:45.822 I got you this I got. 0:00:48.822 --> 0:00:51.102 The man is still there too. According to the caller, 0:00:51.662 --> 0:00:54.182 he poured two Jerry cans of fuel over the woman's 0:00:54.222 --> 0:00:57.462 head and body and now he's just watching the flames. 0:00:57.702 --> 0:01:03.302 Golfer, can you tell me who did this? 0:01:12.662 --> 0:01:16.142 The woman is thirty one year old Judy Malanowski. The 0:01:16.182 --> 0:01:20.822 man is her partner, Michael Slager. Eventually, he tries to 0:01:20.822 --> 0:01:24.262 put her out with a fire extinguisher. As she's rushed 0:01:24.262 --> 0:01:26.982 to hospital, her family is warned that she likely won't 0:01:27.022 --> 0:01:30.862 survive more than a few hours days at most. Her 0:01:30.862 --> 0:01:36.542 injuries are catastrophic, but Judy survives years in a coma 0:01:36.582 --> 0:01:39.382 for some of it and in pain for all of it. 0:01:40.262 --> 0:01:42.622 But she lives long enough to do something never before 0:01:42.662 --> 0:01:47.542 seen in American history. Judy Malanowski is the first person 0:01:47.622 --> 0:02:01.342 to testify at her own murder trial. I'm Jemma Bass 0:02:01.382 --> 0:02:04.902 and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast 0:02:05.062 --> 0:02:08.662 exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the 0:02:08.702 --> 0:02:12.262 people who know the most about them. Five months before 0:02:12.302 --> 0:02:15.902 her death, Judy gave harrowing testimony to be used should 0:02:15.982 --> 0:02:20.022 she pass away. In it, she described the moments before 0:02:20.102 --> 0:02:21.142 she was set on fire. 0:02:22.102 --> 0:02:26.142 After he poured the gasoline on you, what happens next? 0:02:26.742 --> 0:02:32.702 He rade away through me for about thirty seconds. I 0:02:32.822 --> 0:02:37.782 had fid so please help me and stop and I'm good, 0:02:37.982 --> 0:02:40.862 I'll get the chuck. I'll go with you. You know 0:02:42.342 --> 0:02:46.182 why I was, why would you do this? And I 0:02:46.342 --> 0:02:49.222 looked at him and he all later out of his 0:02:49.422 --> 0:02:54.902 pocket and he started walking towards me, and I just 0:02:54.982 --> 0:02:58.862 remembered krying of day for help. And he let me 0:02:58.902 --> 0:03:04.022 on fire and look into his eyes were his grayes 0:03:04.102 --> 0:03:04.862 went back. 0:03:05.102 --> 0:03:09.942 Literally, She described the pain my whole body suddly. 0:03:10.782 --> 0:03:14.742 It was like a thousand meals lay in, a thousand 0:03:14.902 --> 0:03:21.422 pass meels ionstrating my body. I can't tell you describe 0:03:21.662 --> 0:03:29.862 how waking up is a horrible thing. They say it's 0:03:29.902 --> 0:03:34.302 a little better than those fives. But it's one thing 0:03:34.422 --> 0:03:36.222 heals another thing hers. 0:03:36.462 --> 0:03:39.582 Then she told the judge exactly what she thought her 0:03:39.662 --> 0:03:40.542 killer deserved. 0:03:41.022 --> 0:03:43.662 I want you to tell a future a judge what 0:03:43.782 --> 0:03:47.662 you want to see happen in mister slayer. I would 0:03:47.702 --> 0:03:50.942 like to see in the church with murder and to 0:03:51.062 --> 0:03:53.862 a lesn, I think that he deserves that. 0:03:54.462 --> 0:03:57.862 Judy lived for nearly two years after being set on fire. 0:03:58.702 --> 0:04:03.462 She endured more than sixty surgeries, including excruciating skin grafts, 0:04:03.502 --> 0:04:08.262 and suffered seven cardiac arrests. She died on June twenty seventh, 0:04:08.302 --> 0:04:11.582 twenty seventeen, with her family by her bed side. She 0:04:11.702 --> 0:04:15.702 was only thirty three. Judy's story has been told in 0:04:15.782 --> 0:04:19.102 detail in the documentary The Fire That Took Her directed 0:04:19.142 --> 0:04:33.022 by Patricia Gillespie. Patricia joins us. Now, Patricia, how did 0:04:33.062 --> 0:04:35.902 you become involved in this story and with Judy and 0:04:35.942 --> 0:04:36.582 her family. 0:04:37.542 --> 0:04:41.462 Yeah, so I started looking at this story many years ago. 0:04:41.782 --> 0:04:45.142 Trump had just won the election in the US, and 0:04:45.302 --> 0:04:49.102 a lot of the energy that went into that was 0:04:49.262 --> 0:04:51.982 in the Midwest, and I was very interested. I felt 0:04:51.982 --> 0:04:53.462 like there weren't a lot of stories coming out of 0:04:53.502 --> 0:04:56.382 the Midwest of the United States, the heartland as it were, 0:04:56.422 --> 0:04:59.862 and so I started reading local papers there just to 0:04:59.902 --> 0:05:02.102 try to understand that part of the country a little better. 0:05:02.182 --> 0:05:04.822 I live in New York City, and I stumbled across 0:05:04.902 --> 0:05:08.262 Judy's story quite by accident, and I was so moved 0:05:08.302 --> 0:05:11.462 by it because I felt like it was the story 0:05:11.702 --> 0:05:14.942 not just of a victim, but a victim who took 0:05:14.982 --> 0:05:17.502 it upon herself to become the hero of her own story. 0:05:18.142 --> 0:05:20.302 And that was really engaging to me. So I got 0:05:20.342 --> 0:05:24.422 on Facebook and stocked her mom and drove out to Ohio, 0:05:24.462 --> 0:05:26.822 and over the course of a number of meetings, we 0:05:26.942 --> 0:05:29.622 decided to make the movie together me and her family. 0:05:30.822 --> 0:05:34.022 Can you give us an overview of Judy's life prior 0:05:34.062 --> 0:05:38.422 to meeting Michael. She was a mom, she'd recently beaten cancer, 0:05:39.062 --> 0:05:41.782 She'd lived quite a big life before all of this happened. 0:05:43.102 --> 0:05:45.542 Yeah. So, I think there are many elements of Judy's 0:05:45.582 --> 0:05:48.982 story that are sort of all American. Right. She's born 0:05:48.982 --> 0:05:52.222 in this Ohio suburb. She wins a beauty contest in 0:05:52.262 --> 0:05:55.102 her town. I think she was the homecoming queen. She 0:05:55.142 --> 0:05:59.382 fell in love in her early twenties, got married, had 0:05:59.422 --> 0:06:04.502 a couple kids. That marriage unfortunately didn't work out and 0:06:04.582 --> 0:06:07.982 around the time the marriage was ending, she was diagnosed 0:06:07.982 --> 0:06:13.142 with ovarian cancer. And I believe she was pregnant already 0:06:13.222 --> 0:06:17.302 with her second daughter, Maddie, and she wanted to continue 0:06:17.302 --> 0:06:20.902 that pregnancy, so she couldn't take some of the therapies 0:06:20.942 --> 0:06:23.542 that were needed for the cancers. So she got on 0:06:24.142 --> 0:06:27.462 some level of pain management. Or maybe she was wanting 0:06:27.502 --> 0:06:30.342 to try for Maddie. I can't quite remember, but anyway, 0:06:30.422 --> 0:06:33.142 she couldn't have the full chemo hysterectomy at the moment 0:06:33.262 --> 0:06:36.702 she was diagnosed, and so they started to give her 0:06:36.942 --> 0:06:40.542 pain medication. And this was before the US really had 0:06:40.582 --> 0:06:43.342 a comprehensive understanding of the ovoid crisis and the role 0:06:43.702 --> 0:06:47.502 the pharmaceuticals play in that. And she got addicted to 0:06:47.582 --> 0:06:51.342 the medication, taking it exactly as the doctor prescribed, but 0:06:51.462 --> 0:06:56.062 once that prescription ran out, she was very dependent on it. 0:06:56.142 --> 0:07:00.502 That sort of transmigrified into a drug addiction, which eventually 0:07:00.582 --> 0:07:03.862 led to her using heroin. She was a really dedicated 0:07:03.862 --> 0:07:06.502 mom even when she was using. Her girls were a 0:07:06.502 --> 0:07:09.382 priority in her life, and she got herself clean. She 0:07:09.422 --> 0:07:12.462 had a good amount of time together sober by the 0:07:12.502 --> 0:07:15.622 time she met Michael, and then once her and Michael 0:07:15.662 --> 0:07:18.382 got together. That sort of went out the window pretty quickly. 0:07:19.102 --> 0:07:21.622 How did Michael come onto the scene, how did they meet, 0:07:21.702 --> 0:07:24.022 and how did that relationship become what it was. 0:07:24.742 --> 0:07:27.862 So they actually knew each other through her ex husband. 0:07:28.422 --> 0:07:30.982 He had been part of her husband's friend group. I 0:07:30.982 --> 0:07:35.662 guess Judy's mom, Bonnie might say that she became interested 0:07:35.662 --> 0:07:39.102 in Michael, perhaps to make her ex husband jealous initially, 0:07:39.302 --> 0:07:41.582 but it does seem like for a time they had 0:07:41.622 --> 0:07:46.342 a genuine relationship that maybe moved a little bit too 0:07:46.422 --> 0:07:50.582 quickly and those red flags might have been missed. So 0:07:50.662 --> 0:07:53.862 Michael himself was not an addict, but Michael had a 0:07:53.942 --> 0:07:57.022 history of dating women who were addicts and a number 0:07:57.062 --> 0:08:02.622 of women who were sober after having been addicted to opiates, 0:08:03.262 --> 0:08:06.542 and then for whatever reason, these women all ended up 0:08:07.222 --> 0:08:10.262 using again over the course of the relationship with him. 0:08:10.542 --> 0:08:14.382 And I think the feeling Judy's family has is that 0:08:14.542 --> 0:08:19.022 the drugs were reintroduced as a form of control, which 0:08:19.102 --> 0:08:22.542 is a kind of pathway to domestic abuse or domestic 0:08:22.622 --> 0:08:25.542 abuse in itself. That on the ground level I see 0:08:25.622 --> 0:08:28.582 is very common, but isn't necessarily something we talk about. 0:08:28.822 --> 0:08:31.462 But if you become the person supplying your girlfriend with drugs, 0:08:31.942 --> 0:08:34.502 you have a fair amount of power in that relationship. 0:08:34.622 --> 0:08:38.662 So that became the arrangement, I think fairly quickly after 0:08:38.702 --> 0:08:41.542 they got together, and then he started abusing her, but 0:08:41.822 --> 0:08:45.702 she was dependent on him for those drugs. So it 0:08:45.742 --> 0:08:48.342 was a really difficult situation to try to get out of, 0:08:48.822 --> 0:08:52.662 but she did within a couple months. Enough was enough 0:08:52.862 --> 0:08:55.662 and she was trying to leave that relationship. She called 0:08:55.662 --> 0:08:59.982 the police numerous times and once even told them that 0:09:00.062 --> 0:09:03.422 she thought he was going to kill her. But unfortunately, 0:09:03.502 --> 0:09:06.422 like in the States, unless the police are on the 0:09:06.462 --> 0:09:10.302 ground and see something going wrong actively or have some 0:09:10.462 --> 0:09:13.822 sort of forensic proof, there's not much that they can do. 0:09:15.142 --> 0:09:19.382 What about Michael, He has quite a lengthy criminal history, 0:09:19.422 --> 0:09:19.822 doesn't he? 0:09:20.822 --> 0:09:23.902 So Michael had I forget the exact number, but he 0:09:23.942 --> 0:09:28.742 had many, many, many prior charges related to domestic abuse 0:09:29.102 --> 0:09:33.182 or I believe there's some charges related to sexual assault 0:09:33.182 --> 0:09:36.462 in there. And really what that comes down to is 0:09:36.502 --> 0:09:41.622 that we just don't punish guys enough for that kind 0:09:41.662 --> 0:09:44.382 of thing. He would sort of come back to court, 0:09:44.422 --> 0:09:46.422 get a slap on the wrist, and leave. He served 0:09:46.502 --> 0:09:50.462 minor amounts of time, I think mostly in County Jail, 0:09:51.142 --> 0:09:55.302 but never really got a substantial sentence, And it's horrifying 0:09:55.382 --> 0:09:58.262 when you do read his record, you sort of see 0:09:58.302 --> 0:10:03.142 somebody amping up to progressively more violent crimes and it 0:10:03.262 --> 0:10:06.662 took him lighting a woman on fire to actually get 0:10:06.662 --> 0:10:08.342 any substantial prison time at all. 0:10:08.422 --> 0:10:13.542 Really, what was the state of Michael and Judy's relationship 0:10:13.862 --> 0:10:16.262 by the time we get to August twenty fifteen when 0:10:16.262 --> 0:10:17.062 the fire happened. 0:10:18.062 --> 0:10:20.862 I think Judy was in the process of splitting up 0:10:21.022 --> 0:10:24.222 from him. She knew she needed out of that relationship, 0:10:24.222 --> 0:10:28.342 but she was also wanting to go back to rehab 0:10:28.622 --> 0:10:31.422 to get clean again, because she understood that was part 0:10:31.422 --> 0:10:33.862 of leaving Michael. She had to be sober to get 0:10:33.902 --> 0:10:36.222 away from him because he was so involved in her 0:10:36.302 --> 0:10:40.302 drug life and the way that she in the quote 0:10:40.382 --> 0:10:44.702 unquote safest way possible, got drugs, So she needed to 0:10:44.702 --> 0:10:46.702 get sober to cut it off with him, and he 0:10:46.782 --> 0:10:50.742 was actually driving her to rehab that day when this 0:10:50.902 --> 0:10:52.182 incident happened. 0:10:53.502 --> 0:10:56.502 Can you walk us through what happened? Because the two 0:10:56.542 --> 0:10:59.302 of them were having a bit of an argument behind 0:10:59.702 --> 0:11:01.062 kind of a gas station, weren't they. 0:11:02.102 --> 0:11:06.142 Yeah, I mean they argued a lot throughout their relationship 0:11:06.342 --> 0:11:12.502 over everything, including some quite in stantial things. My understanding 0:11:12.542 --> 0:11:16.062 is they had stopped to get cigarettes at the gas 0:11:16.102 --> 0:11:19.622 station and Judy was talking about that she wanted to 0:11:19.662 --> 0:11:21.982 do a few more things before she went to rehab, 0:11:22.102 --> 0:11:26.742 that she wanted to go see her kids, and she 0:11:26.822 --> 0:11:28.942 had spoken to her mother, and her mother was wondering 0:11:28.942 --> 0:11:30.662 if she would come by the house to see her 0:11:30.702 --> 0:11:34.662 daughters before she went, and they got into an argument. 0:11:35.622 --> 0:11:38.302 I guess Judy sort of had had enough and threw 0:11:38.382 --> 0:11:42.022 a soda at him, and his response was to dowse 0:11:42.062 --> 0:11:47.222 her in gasoline and thirty forty seconds later come back 0:11:47.262 --> 0:11:50.542 and light her on fire. Michael's version of the story 0:11:50.742 --> 0:11:53.822 is that he was just dowsing her and gasoline to 0:11:54.062 --> 0:11:59.662 quote unquote get her back or throwing the soda on him. Obviously, 0:11:59.702 --> 0:12:04.342 that's pretty improbable, it's not really a normal response. And 0:12:04.462 --> 0:12:07.142 he says that she went up and plamee because less 0:12:07.182 --> 0:12:09.222 than a minute later he wanted to be a gentleman 0:12:09.262 --> 0:12:13.062 and light her cigarette for her. That was his story, 0:12:13.302 --> 0:12:17.822 and Judy's story was that he downstirring gasoline, went back 0:12:17.862 --> 0:12:19.742 to the truck and came up with I think she 0:12:19.782 --> 0:12:22.022 said he looked like the devil. His eyes sort of 0:12:22.102 --> 0:12:24.622 just went black and he lit her on fire and 0:12:24.702 --> 0:12:25.582 she blacked out. 0:12:26.342 --> 0:12:28.542 Well, there were several witnesses, weren't they who watched it 0:12:28.542 --> 0:12:31.262 all happened and then watched him kind of stand there 0:12:31.622 --> 0:12:32.382 and just watch. 0:12:33.182 --> 0:12:35.462 Yeah, there were, Indeed, there were a number of people. 0:12:35.462 --> 0:12:38.982 A veteran, a fellow who's in the Marines who actually 0:12:39.022 --> 0:12:41.902 took the keys away from Michael and stopped him from leaving, 0:12:42.502 --> 0:12:46.622 and a couple. And according to one of the members 0:12:46.662 --> 0:12:49.902 of this couple, he actually was just sort of staring 0:12:49.942 --> 0:12:54.342 at Judy burning until he realized people were looking, at 0:12:54.342 --> 0:12:56.622 which point he does go and get a fire extinguisher, 0:12:56.662 --> 0:13:01.982 but quite a bit of time elapses before he gets 0:13:02.102 --> 0:13:05.262 that fire extinguisher. I would like to think if it 0:13:05.262 --> 0:13:07.022 were me in that situation, I'd be running for the 0:13:07.022 --> 0:13:11.062 fire extinguisher right away. That isn't what happened, And these 0:13:11.102 --> 0:13:14.582 witnesses feel he started to really just make moves once 0:13:14.902 --> 0:13:16.622 he realized he was being observed. 0:13:18.102 --> 0:13:21.022 Judy obviously was taken to hospital. Michael was as well. 0:13:22.302 --> 0:13:24.702 Can you talk us through the extent of the injuries 0:13:24.742 --> 0:13:26.502 that Judy suffered. 0:13:27.622 --> 0:13:30.062 Yes, she was burned over ninety percent of her body. 0:13:30.182 --> 0:13:34.062 She lost her fingers, number of her fingers, her ears. 0:13:34.662 --> 0:13:37.902 She was just covered in open wounds from these burns 0:13:38.102 --> 0:13:42.142 that never healed. She survived seven hundred days after this incident, 0:13:42.222 --> 0:13:47.942 and she never healed completely, and the amount of swelling 0:13:48.262 --> 0:13:51.902 that you experience when you're burned like that. The earliest 0:13:52.102 --> 0:13:55.542 photos of her after the incident, many of which we 0:13:55.662 --> 0:13:58.422 didn't include in the film because if you can believe it, 0:13:58.422 --> 0:14:01.822 they're more graphic than what we did show. I'll use 0:14:01.822 --> 0:14:04.742 her sister's words. She hardly looked like a person. She 0:14:04.862 --> 0:14:09.182 was very, very badly injured. Michael also sustained some burns 0:14:09.262 --> 0:14:13.422 putting her out, which she really liked to talk about. 0:14:13.902 --> 0:14:15.462 In my line of work, I see a lot of 0:14:15.942 --> 0:14:19.662 images of injured people or maimed people, and this was 0:14:19.742 --> 0:14:22.702 by far the worst stuff I'd ever seen. And in fact, 0:14:22.782 --> 0:14:25.942 the marine who was one of the witnesses at the 0:14:25.982 --> 0:14:30.862 crime scene, who had been to war and seeing people 0:14:30.942 --> 0:14:32.982 really seriously Andrews, said it was the worst thing he'd 0:14:32.982 --> 0:14:34.382 seen as well. Well. 0:14:34.382 --> 0:14:37.302 Her daughters didn't even recognize her, and I recall that 0:14:37.382 --> 0:14:39.902 her sister vomited from the side. 0:14:40.502 --> 0:14:42.462 Look, there are some things that just aren't supposed to 0:14:42.542 --> 0:14:46.262 happen to a human body, and I feel like that's 0:14:46.702 --> 0:14:49.702 one of them. I mean, it's very hard to fathom. 0:14:49.782 --> 0:14:54.422 And then to see somebody alive after that. I remember 0:14:54.422 --> 0:14:57.142 seeing those photos and being like, I don't understand how 0:14:57.182 --> 0:14:59.982 she didn't die. The doctors didn't understand how she didn't die. 0:15:00.022 --> 0:15:02.102 That EMTs didn't understand how she didn't die. It was 0:15:02.142 --> 0:15:05.342 just such such a severe thing that happened to her. 0:15:10.422 --> 0:15:14.462 Listening to True Crime Conversations with me Jemma Bass, I'm 0:15:14.502 --> 0:15:18.502 speaking with director Patricia Gillespie about the case of Judy Melanowski, 0:15:18.822 --> 0:15:28.582 who was burnt alive by her boyfriend. You got to 0:15:28.622 --> 0:15:33.182 know Judy's mum, and you interviewed her about her version 0:15:33.262 --> 0:15:36.342 of seeing her daughter like that. What were her recollections 0:15:36.382 --> 0:15:38.902 of that day, about getting that call and about arriving 0:15:38.942 --> 0:15:39.622 at the hospital. 0:15:40.382 --> 0:15:42.542 You know, I think for Barney it was really kind 0:15:42.542 --> 0:15:47.062 of a blur. She gets this call. She's asked, first, hey, 0:15:47.062 --> 0:15:49.902 can we intubate your daughter? Like can we put her 0:15:49.942 --> 0:15:53.022 on a ventilator? And she says, well, yeah, of course, 0:15:53.262 --> 0:15:55.662 and then it takes a couple seconds to click, Oh 0:15:55.662 --> 0:15:58.742 my gosh, that's life support, Like something very serious has 0:15:58.822 --> 0:16:02.542 happened to her. This isn't just an accident or a burn, 0:16:02.662 --> 0:16:05.262 this is, you know, my kids on life support. And 0:16:05.822 --> 0:16:08.782 she describes the experience of going to the hospital, which 0:16:08.822 --> 0:16:12.022 is OSU as a hospital. She lives nearby and drives 0:16:12.022 --> 0:16:13.982 by all the time, and she got lost. She was 0:16:14.062 --> 0:16:18.222 just so dissociated. She rushes into the hospital and they 0:16:18.342 --> 0:16:22.062 finally led her back to see Judy. And this reaction 0:16:22.142 --> 0:16:25.662 that everybody else has sort of chock and horror, isn't 0:16:25.782 --> 0:16:28.022 the reaction that Bonnie has. She just sees her kid. 0:16:28.142 --> 0:16:30.702 She just sees her baby, and she's so happy she's alive. 0:16:30.782 --> 0:16:33.182 And she turns to the doctor and says, tell me, 0:16:33.222 --> 0:16:35.142 there's hope. Tell me there's hope. Tell me there's hope. 0:16:35.142 --> 0:16:37.942 And at that point, the percent of Judy's body that 0:16:38.062 --> 0:16:42.862 was burned, she was almost guaranteed to die. And that's 0:16:42.902 --> 0:16:44.862 not what happened, thanks to the amazing work of the 0:16:44.902 --> 0:16:49.182 doctors that always you and I believe Judy's desire to 0:16:50.382 --> 0:16:52.462 live and see her girls grow up as long as 0:16:52.502 --> 0:16:56.102 she could and try to get some justice for herself 0:16:56.262 --> 0:16:58.982 that kept her alive for that seven hundred days. 0:16:59.582 --> 0:17:04.382 Well, even in that really early period after the fire, 0:17:04.502 --> 0:17:06.742 she was able to give a very brief but a 0:17:06.782 --> 0:17:08.742 bedside interview to cops, wasn't she. 0:17:09.862 --> 0:17:14.342 Yeah, So she was very burnt, and when someone is 0:17:14.382 --> 0:17:17.582 that burnt usually you put them under pretty quickly, just 0:17:17.582 --> 0:17:20.102 because the pain is extremely severe and there's a risk 0:17:20.102 --> 0:17:22.382 of going in shot. So they had put her under 0:17:22.422 --> 0:17:25.742 a bunch of pain medication, but realizing that it was 0:17:25.862 --> 0:17:28.662 very likely she would pass away, the police and the 0:17:28.662 --> 0:17:31.302 doctor's decide together to back her off that a little 0:17:31.302 --> 0:17:33.542 bit so she could become more aware of what was 0:17:33.582 --> 0:17:37.222 going on around her. And the detective on the case, 0:17:37.262 --> 0:17:40.862 who's now a lieutenant, Chad Cohagen, came in and asked 0:17:40.862 --> 0:17:42.982 her if Michael had done this to her, and she 0:17:43.222 --> 0:17:44.422 nodded her head yes. 0:17:45.542 --> 0:17:47.982 And they also had a chat with Mircael, which is 0:17:48.502 --> 0:17:51.862 you can watch that. There's footage of it and it's 0:17:51.902 --> 0:17:55.862 quite eerie. He's very calm and tells that version of 0:17:55.862 --> 0:17:57.622 events you explained earlier. 0:17:58.822 --> 0:18:02.102 Yeah, Michael thought this was all very explainable. He was 0:18:02.142 --> 0:18:06.102 a pretty cool customer. So we got body cam from 0:18:06.142 --> 0:18:09.862 the police in Ohio. It's most American police officers now 0:18:10.062 --> 0:18:13.102 where a body camera and that stuff becomes part of 0:18:13.102 --> 0:18:15.782 the public record eventually in the case of a crime, 0:18:16.462 --> 0:18:20.622 and we were able to get that from the Gahanna Police, 0:18:20.702 --> 0:18:25.542 the investigating agency, and yeah, you see Michael. The thing 0:18:25.582 --> 0:18:27.582 that really shocked me about that is he seemed to 0:18:27.582 --> 0:18:30.302 feel bad for himself because of the burns he had 0:18:30.342 --> 0:18:32.542 sustained trying to save her, and that seemed to be 0:18:32.582 --> 0:18:37.342 his main concern, and he tried to explain how this 0:18:37.462 --> 0:18:40.302 was an accident. He tried to displace blame on Judy 0:18:40.342 --> 0:18:43.702 a little bit, I think for what had happened. And 0:18:44.302 --> 0:18:46.742 Detective kohg And I have to say he did a 0:18:46.782 --> 0:18:49.862 really incredible job. He walked a very fine line between 0:18:50.102 --> 0:18:53.942 hearing him out and not letting him wriggle Away just 0:18:54.022 --> 0:18:55.902 did some very good work. There got a cheek swab 0:18:55.942 --> 0:18:59.182 from him and all that, which I can't imagine being 0:18:59.222 --> 0:19:00.982 able to keep your cool like that and that kind 0:19:01.022 --> 0:19:03.262 of circumstance having just seen Judy. 0:19:04.742 --> 0:19:08.182 Even though there were witnesses, there was also CCTV footage, 0:19:08.222 --> 0:19:10.142 so you can actually watch it all unfold. 0:19:10.902 --> 0:19:14.462 Yeah, you see detective going and tell Michael that in 0:19:14.462 --> 0:19:17.422 the hospital, and I'm not sure that that was something 0:19:17.462 --> 0:19:21.062 Michael realized because the CCTV was actually from a bank 0:19:21.342 --> 0:19:24.102 next door. The drive through ATM had a camera on 0:19:24.142 --> 0:19:26.542 it that could see into the parking lot where this happened. 0:19:26.582 --> 0:19:28.822 So if you were to go into the parking lot 0:19:28.822 --> 0:19:31.302 of the gas station where this happened and look around, 0:19:31.382 --> 0:19:34.862 you wouldn't see a physical camera, but it was one 0:19:35.022 --> 0:19:38.022 parking lot over very close by. You can see the 0:19:38.062 --> 0:19:42.062 whole thing. And to that point, it doesn't really appear 0:19:42.102 --> 0:19:44.582 that Michael and Judy made up to any extent that 0:19:44.662 --> 0:19:47.502 he would be a gentleman and light her cigarette after 0:19:47.622 --> 0:19:50.942 dowsing her and gasoline on that video. 0:19:51.182 --> 0:19:55.662 So as morbid as it sounds, police were kind of waiting. 0:19:55.902 --> 0:19:58.222 They were waiting to see whether Judy would die, to 0:19:58.342 --> 0:20:00.942 kind of see what they would be charging Michael is 0:20:01.022 --> 0:20:05.342 whether it would be murder or something lesser. But Judy 0:20:05.382 --> 0:20:09.302 defied the odds and she woke up after seven months 0:20:09.422 --> 0:20:14.222 in a coma. In terms of her medical treatment, what 0:20:14.302 --> 0:20:16.542 did she endure, because it's not like she woke up 0:20:16.582 --> 0:20:19.462 and was okay. She had multiple surgeries. 0:20:20.502 --> 0:20:23.982 Yeah, she was constantly having surgeries and skin grafts. When 0:20:24.022 --> 0:20:28.502 you're burnt as badly as Judy was. Wound maintenance is 0:20:28.542 --> 0:20:32.262 also really important because One of the major things you 0:20:32.262 --> 0:20:35.702 can die of with burns like that is infection, because 0:20:35.782 --> 0:20:38.302 your skin is what protects you from the outside world, 0:20:38.342 --> 0:20:41.302 and she didn't really have it, so she would regularly 0:20:41.382 --> 0:20:44.262 have to get these wounds cleaned and bebreeded, kind of 0:20:45.102 --> 0:20:49.862 scraping out these wounds, and no amount of pain medication 0:20:50.622 --> 0:20:53.502 made that feel okay. You just can't give someone that 0:20:53.542 --> 0:20:56.422 amount of pain medication. And you also have to consider 0:20:56.502 --> 0:20:58.422 Judy had been she was on her way to rehab. 0:20:58.462 --> 0:21:01.622 She was addicted to opioids, so the doses that might 0:21:01.662 --> 0:21:04.302 work on you or I, they were not as strong 0:21:04.342 --> 0:21:06.502 as they would be for a person without a history 0:21:06.502 --> 0:21:09.862 of opioid abuse as well. So yeah, it was just 0:21:09.942 --> 0:21:13.462 it was a very tough time for her for sure, 0:21:13.862 --> 0:21:17.422 because they expected her to die. The detectives were sort 0:21:17.462 --> 0:21:22.142 of waiting to see. Had Judy died, Michael would have 0:21:22.142 --> 0:21:25.022 been charged with murder, but because she survived, they were 0:21:25.142 --> 0:21:30.902 unable to do that, so they charged him with aggravated arson, which, unfortunately, 0:21:30.942 --> 0:21:33.462 in the state of Ohio, letting your girlfriend on fire 0:21:33.502 --> 0:21:37.062 carries a very similar penalty to letting a car and 0:21:37.102 --> 0:21:40.782 fire like house on fire, So the maximum he could 0:21:40.862 --> 0:21:44.502 get in that instance was about eleven years. 0:21:44.462 --> 0:21:47.382 And the other thing to add to that was that 0:21:48.302 --> 0:21:50.142 there was a real possibility that she was going to 0:21:50.142 --> 0:21:53.022 be able to give testimony if it went to trial, 0:21:54.262 --> 0:21:56.862 but he changed his plate to no contest, so he 0:21:57.222 --> 0:21:58.902 effectively silenced too. 0:22:00.062 --> 0:22:04.102 Yeah, so they're approaching this trial and Judy is not 0:22:04.142 --> 0:22:06.942 only able to testify, she really wants to testify because 0:22:06.982 --> 0:22:10.262 she is even though this is on video, her testimony 0:22:10.822 --> 0:22:13.742 is that sinks it. When your victim lives and can 0:22:13.782 --> 0:22:16.542 say that she knows you did this with malice and 0:22:16.742 --> 0:22:21.862 can provide an alternative story of what we all see 0:22:21.902 --> 0:22:25.422 on that tape, that was pretty much going to ensure 0:22:25.462 --> 0:22:28.502 a conviction. And I think Michael realized this that between 0:22:28.542 --> 0:22:30.702 the fact that there was a tape at all and 0:22:30.782 --> 0:22:33.302 that Judy, who had to be just about the most 0:22:33.302 --> 0:22:35.382 sympathetic person you could put on the stand, was going 0:22:35.462 --> 0:22:37.942 to explain what we were watching on that tape, Michael 0:22:37.982 --> 0:22:41.622 realized that he was definitely going to be convicted, and 0:22:41.662 --> 0:22:45.662 he took a lead deal, but he pled in this way. 0:22:45.702 --> 0:22:48.982 He took something called an Alfred plea. I'm not sure 0:22:49.022 --> 0:22:51.622 if you have this in Australia, but in the US 0:22:51.822 --> 0:22:56.742 you can plead guilty by essentially saying, well, I'm not 0:22:56.942 --> 0:23:01.222 saying I'm guilty, but I'm choosing to plead guilty because 0:23:01.262 --> 0:23:03.182 I think you have the evidence convict me, and I 0:23:03.222 --> 0:23:06.862 would rather get this lesser sentence. So that's where the 0:23:07.182 --> 0:23:08.862 eleven years came from. 0:23:09.222 --> 0:23:11.702 So he's not admitting fulk. That's a real slap in 0:23:11.742 --> 0:23:13.342 the face by doing that plea. 0:23:14.582 --> 0:23:18.302 Yeah, the alpha plea is very complicated because it's like 0:23:18.782 --> 0:23:22.822 the justice system here, like anywhere, is not perfect. And 0:23:22.862 --> 0:23:26.102 I've heard stories of innocent people who fled guilty because 0:23:26.142 --> 0:23:29.822 the optics of who they were and the crime they 0:23:29.862 --> 0:23:31.902 were charged with and where they were being tried. They 0:23:31.902 --> 0:23:33.742 were like, I would rather take a deal for seven 0:23:33.822 --> 0:23:36.702 years than a deal for twenty years, right, And So 0:23:37.222 --> 0:23:39.782 in some ways, I think it's good that exists so 0:23:39.822 --> 0:23:43.262 people can say their peace right. And part of the 0:23:43.262 --> 0:23:46.782 reason you can do that is because it's covered by 0:23:46.902 --> 0:23:49.702 free speech right. You can say whatever you want and 0:23:49.742 --> 0:23:52.022 take your plea. But on the other hand, I think 0:23:52.222 --> 0:23:55.302