1 00:00:11,582 --> 00:00:16,182 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges 2 00:00:16,222 --> 00:00:19,702 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was 3 00:00:19,742 --> 00:00:28,862 Speaker 1: recorded on It's just after five PM on an August 4 00:00:28,902 --> 00:00:31,982 Speaker 1: afternoon in twenty fifteen, and a nine one one call 5 00:00:32,062 --> 00:00:33,982 Speaker 1: is coming through about a fire and a service station 6 00:00:34,062 --> 00:00:35,142 Speaker 1: in Columbus, Ohio. 7 00:00:37,342 --> 00:00:43,542 Speaker 2: I got, Okay, stop screaming because I can't understand you. 8 00:00:43,582 --> 00:00:45,822 Speaker 2: I got you this I got. 9 00:00:48,822 --> 00:00:51,102 Speaker 1: The man is still there too. According to the caller, 10 00:00:51,662 --> 00:00:54,182 Speaker 1: he poured two Jerry cans of fuel over the woman's 11 00:00:54,222 --> 00:00:57,462 Speaker 1: head and body and now he's just watching the flames. 12 00:00:57,702 --> 00:01:03,302 Speaker 2: Golfer, can you tell me who did this? 13 00:01:12,662 --> 00:01:16,142 Speaker 1: The woman is thirty one year old Judy Malanowski. The 14 00:01:16,182 --> 00:01:20,822 Speaker 1: man is her partner, Michael Slager. Eventually, he tries to 15 00:01:20,822 --> 00:01:24,262 Speaker 1: put her out with a fire extinguisher. As she's rushed 16 00:01:24,262 --> 00:01:26,982 Speaker 1: to hospital, her family is warned that she likely won't 17 00:01:27,022 --> 00:01:30,862 Speaker 1: survive more than a few hours days at most. Her 18 00:01:30,862 --> 00:01:36,542 Speaker 1: injuries are catastrophic, but Judy survives years in a coma 19 00:01:36,582 --> 00:01:39,382 Speaker 1: for some of it and in pain for all of it. 20 00:01:40,262 --> 00:01:42,622 Speaker 1: But she lives long enough to do something never before 21 00:01:42,662 --> 00:01:47,542 Speaker 1: seen in American history. Judy Malanowski is the first person 22 00:01:47,622 --> 00:02:01,342 Speaker 1: to testify at her own murder trial. I'm Jemma Bass 23 00:02:01,382 --> 00:02:04,902 Speaker 1: and this is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast 24 00:02:05,062 --> 00:02:08,662 Speaker 1: exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the 25 00:02:08,702 --> 00:02:12,262 Speaker 1: people who know the most about them. Five months before 26 00:02:12,302 --> 00:02:15,902 Speaker 1: her death, Judy gave harrowing testimony to be used should 27 00:02:15,982 --> 00:02:20,022 Speaker 1: she pass away. In it, she described the moments before 28 00:02:20,102 --> 00:02:21,142 Speaker 1: she was set on fire. 29 00:02:22,102 --> 00:02:26,142 Speaker 3: After he poured the gasoline on you, what happens next? 30 00:02:26,742 --> 00:02:32,702 Speaker 2: He rade away through me for about thirty seconds. I 31 00:02:32,822 --> 00:02:37,782 Speaker 2: had fid so please help me and stop and I'm good, 32 00:02:37,982 --> 00:02:40,862 Speaker 2: I'll get the chuck. I'll go with you. You know 33 00:02:42,342 --> 00:02:46,182 Speaker 2: why I was, why would you do this? And I 34 00:02:46,342 --> 00:02:49,222 Speaker 2: looked at him and he all later out of his 35 00:02:49,422 --> 00:02:54,902 Speaker 2: pocket and he started walking towards me, and I just 36 00:02:54,982 --> 00:02:58,862 Speaker 2: remembered krying of day for help. And he let me 37 00:02:58,902 --> 00:03:04,022 Speaker 2: on fire and look into his eyes were his grayes 38 00:03:04,102 --> 00:03:04,862 Speaker 2: went back. 39 00:03:05,102 --> 00:03:09,942 Speaker 1: Literally, She described the pain my whole body suddly. 40 00:03:10,782 --> 00:03:14,742 Speaker 2: It was like a thousand meals lay in, a thousand 41 00:03:14,902 --> 00:03:21,422 Speaker 2: pass meels ionstrating my body. I can't tell you describe 42 00:03:21,662 --> 00:03:29,862 Speaker 2: how waking up is a horrible thing. They say it's 43 00:03:29,902 --> 00:03:34,302 Speaker 2: a little better than those fives. But it's one thing 44 00:03:34,422 --> 00:03:36,222 Speaker 2: heals another thing hers. 45 00:03:36,462 --> 00:03:39,582 Speaker 1: Then she told the judge exactly what she thought her 46 00:03:39,662 --> 00:03:40,542 Speaker 1: killer deserved. 47 00:03:41,022 --> 00:03:43,662 Speaker 3: I want you to tell a future a judge what 48 00:03:43,782 --> 00:03:47,662 Speaker 3: you want to see happen in mister slayer. I would 49 00:03:47,702 --> 00:03:50,942 Speaker 3: like to see in the church with murder and to 50 00:03:51,062 --> 00:03:53,862 Speaker 3: a lesn, I think that he deserves that. 51 00:03:54,462 --> 00:03:57,862 Speaker 1: Judy lived for nearly two years after being set on fire. 52 00:03:58,702 --> 00:04:03,462 Speaker 1: She endured more than sixty surgeries, including excruciating skin grafts, 53 00:04:03,502 --> 00:04:08,262 Speaker 1: and suffered seven cardiac arrests. She died on June twenty seventh, 54 00:04:08,302 --> 00:04:11,582 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, with her family by her bed side. She 55 00:04:11,702 --> 00:04:15,702 Speaker 1: was only thirty three. Judy's story has been told in 56 00:04:15,782 --> 00:04:19,102 Speaker 1: detail in the documentary The Fire That Took Her directed 57 00:04:19,142 --> 00:04:33,022 Speaker 1: by Patricia Gillespie. Patricia joins us. Now, Patricia, how did 58 00:04:33,062 --> 00:04:35,902 Speaker 1: you become involved in this story and with Judy and 59 00:04:35,942 --> 00:04:36,582 Speaker 1: her family. 60 00:04:37,542 --> 00:04:41,462 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I started looking at this story many years ago. 61 00:04:41,782 --> 00:04:45,142 Speaker 3: Trump had just won the election in the US, and 62 00:04:45,302 --> 00:04:49,102 Speaker 3: a lot of the energy that went into that was 63 00:04:49,262 --> 00:04:51,982 Speaker 3: in the Midwest, and I was very interested. I felt 64 00:04:51,982 --> 00:04:53,462 Speaker 3: like there weren't a lot of stories coming out of 65 00:04:53,502 --> 00:04:56,382 Speaker 3: the Midwest of the United States, the heartland as it were, 66 00:04:56,422 --> 00:04:59,862 Speaker 3: and so I started reading local papers there just to 67 00:04:59,902 --> 00:05:02,102 Speaker 3: try to understand that part of the country a little better. 68 00:05:02,182 --> 00:05:04,822 Speaker 3: I live in New York City, and I stumbled across 69 00:05:04,902 --> 00:05:08,262 Speaker 3: Judy's story quite by accident, and I was so moved 70 00:05:08,302 --> 00:05:11,462 Speaker 3: by it because I felt like it was the story 71 00:05:11,702 --> 00:05:14,942 Speaker 3: not just of a victim, but a victim who took 72 00:05:14,982 --> 00:05:17,502 Speaker 3: it upon herself to become the hero of her own story. 73 00:05:18,142 --> 00:05:20,302 Speaker 3: And that was really engaging to me. So I got 74 00:05:20,342 --> 00:05:24,422 Speaker 3: on Facebook and stocked her mom and drove out to Ohio, 75 00:05:24,462 --> 00:05:26,822 Speaker 3: and over the course of a number of meetings, we 76 00:05:26,942 --> 00:05:29,622 Speaker 3: decided to make the movie together me and her family. 77 00:05:30,822 --> 00:05:34,022 Speaker 1: Can you give us an overview of Judy's life prior 78 00:05:34,062 --> 00:05:38,422 Speaker 1: to meeting Michael. She was a mom, she'd recently beaten cancer, 79 00:05:39,062 --> 00:05:41,782 Speaker 1: She'd lived quite a big life before all of this happened. 80 00:05:43,102 --> 00:05:45,542 Speaker 3: Yeah. So, I think there are many elements of Judy's 81 00:05:45,582 --> 00:05:48,982 Speaker 3: story that are sort of all American. Right. She's born 82 00:05:48,982 --> 00:05:52,222 Speaker 3: in this Ohio suburb. She wins a beauty contest in 83 00:05:52,262 --> 00:05:55,102 Speaker 3: her town. I think she was the homecoming queen. She 84 00:05:55,142 --> 00:05:59,382 Speaker 3: fell in love in her early twenties, got married, had 85 00:05:59,422 --> 00:06:04,502 Speaker 3: a couple kids. That marriage unfortunately didn't work out and 86 00:06:04,582 --> 00:06:07,982 Speaker 3: around the time the marriage was ending, she was diagnosed 87 00:06:07,982 --> 00:06:13,142 Speaker 3: with ovarian cancer. And I believe she was pregnant already 88 00:06:13,222 --> 00:06:17,302 Speaker 3: with her second daughter, Maddie, and she wanted to continue 89 00:06:17,302 --> 00:06:20,902 Speaker 3: that pregnancy, so she couldn't take some of the therapies 90 00:06:20,942 --> 00:06:23,542 Speaker 3: that were needed for the cancers. So she got on 91 00:06:24,142 --> 00:06:27,462 Speaker 3: some level of pain management. Or maybe she was wanting 92 00:06:27,502 --> 00:06:30,342 Speaker 3: to try for Maddie. I can't quite remember, but anyway, 93 00:06:30,422 --> 00:06:33,142 Speaker 3: she couldn't have the full chemo hysterectomy at the moment 94 00:06:33,262 --> 00:06:36,702 Speaker 3: she was diagnosed, and so they started to give her 95 00:06:36,942 --> 00:06:40,542 Speaker 3: pain medication. And this was before the US really had 96 00:06:40,582 --> 00:06:43,342 Speaker 3: a comprehensive understanding of the ovoid crisis and the role 97 00:06:43,702 --> 00:06:47,502 Speaker 3: the pharmaceuticals play in that. And she got addicted to 98 00:06:47,582 --> 00:06:51,342 Speaker 3: the medication, taking it exactly as the doctor prescribed, but 99 00:06:51,462 --> 00:06:56,062 Speaker 3: once that prescription ran out, she was very dependent on it. 100 00:06:56,142 --> 00:07:00,502 Speaker 3: That sort of transmigrified into a drug addiction, which eventually 101 00:07:00,582 --> 00:07:03,862 Speaker 3: led to her using heroin. She was a really dedicated 102 00:07:03,862 --> 00:07:06,502 Speaker 3: mom even when she was using. Her girls were a 103 00:07:06,502 --> 00:07:09,382 Speaker 3: priority in her life, and she got herself clean. She 104 00:07:09,422 --> 00:07:12,462 Speaker 3: had a good amount of time together sober by the 105 00:07:12,502 --> 00:07:15,622 Speaker 3: time she met Michael, and then once her and Michael 106 00:07:15,662 --> 00:07:18,382 Speaker 3: got together. That sort of went out the window pretty quickly. 107 00:07:19,102 --> 00:07:21,622 Speaker 1: How did Michael come onto the scene, how did they meet, 108 00:07:21,702 --> 00:07:24,022 Speaker 1: and how did that relationship become what it was. 109 00:07:24,742 --> 00:07:27,862 Speaker 3: So they actually knew each other through her ex husband. 110 00:07:28,422 --> 00:07:30,982 Speaker 3: He had been part of her husband's friend group. I 111 00:07:30,982 --> 00:07:35,662 Speaker 3: guess Judy's mom, Bonnie might say that she became interested 112 00:07:35,662 --> 00:07:39,102 Speaker 3: in Michael, perhaps to make her ex husband jealous initially, 113 00:07:39,302 --> 00:07:41,582 Speaker 3: but it does seem like for a time they had 114 00:07:41,622 --> 00:07:46,342 Speaker 3: a genuine relationship that maybe moved a little bit too 115 00:07:46,422 --> 00:07:50,582 Speaker 3: quickly and those red flags might have been missed. So 116 00:07:50,662 --> 00:07:53,862 Speaker 3: Michael himself was not an addict, but Michael had a 117 00:07:53,942 --> 00:07:57,022 Speaker 3: history of dating women who were addicts and a number 118 00:07:57,062 --> 00:08:02,622 Speaker 3: of women who were sober after having been addicted to opiates, 119 00:08:03,262 --> 00:08:06,542 Speaker 3: and then for whatever reason, these women all ended up 120 00:08:07,222 --> 00:08:10,262 Speaker 3: using again over the course of the relationship with him. 121 00:08:10,542 --> 00:08:14,382 Speaker 3: And I think the feeling Judy's family has is that 122 00:08:14,542 --> 00:08:19,022 Speaker 3: the drugs were reintroduced as a form of control, which 123 00:08:19,102 --> 00:08:22,542 Speaker 3: is a kind of pathway to domestic abuse or domestic 124 00:08:22,622 --> 00:08:25,542 Speaker 3: abuse in itself. That on the ground level I see 125 00:08:25,622 --> 00:08:28,582 Speaker 3: is very common, but isn't necessarily something we talk about. 126 00:08:28,822 --> 00:08:31,462 Speaker 3: But if you become the person supplying your girlfriend with drugs, 127 00:08:31,942 --> 00:08:34,502 Speaker 3: you have a fair amount of power in that relationship. 128 00:08:34,622 --> 00:08:38,662 Speaker 3: So that became the arrangement, I think fairly quickly after 129 00:08:38,702 --> 00:08:41,542 Speaker 3: they got together, and then he started abusing her, but 130 00:08:41,822 --> 00:08:45,702 Speaker 3: she was dependent on him for those drugs. So it 131 00:08:45,742 --> 00:08:48,342 Speaker 3: was a really difficult situation to try to get out of, 132 00:08:48,822 --> 00:08:52,662 Speaker 3: but she did within a couple months. Enough was enough 133 00:08:52,862 --> 00:08:55,662 Speaker 3: and she was trying to leave that relationship. She called 134 00:08:55,662 --> 00:08:59,982 Speaker 3: the police numerous times and once even told them that 135 00:09:00,062 --> 00:09:03,422 Speaker 3: she thought he was going to kill her. But unfortunately, 136 00:09:03,502 --> 00:09:06,422 Speaker 3: like in the States, unless the police are on the 137 00:09:06,462 --> 00:09:10,302 Speaker 3: ground and see something going wrong actively or have some 138 00:09:10,462 --> 00:09:13,822 Speaker 3: sort of forensic proof, there's not much that they can do. 139 00:09:15,142 --> 00:09:19,382 Speaker 1: What about Michael, He has quite a lengthy criminal history, 140 00:09:19,422 --> 00:09:19,822 Speaker 1: doesn't he? 141 00:09:20,822 --> 00:09:23,902 Speaker 3: So Michael had I forget the exact number, but he 142 00:09:23,942 --> 00:09:28,742 Speaker 3: had many, many, many prior charges related to domestic abuse 143 00:09:29,102 --> 00:09:33,182 Speaker 3: or I believe there's some charges related to sexual assault 144 00:09:33,182 --> 00:09:36,462 Speaker 3: in there. And really what that comes down to is 145 00:09:36,502 --> 00:09:41,622 Speaker 3: that we just don't punish guys enough for that kind 146 00:09:41,662 --> 00:09:44,382 Speaker 3: of thing. He would sort of come back to court, 147 00:09:44,422 --> 00:09:46,422 Speaker 3: get a slap on the wrist, and leave. He served 148 00:09:46,502 --> 00:09:50,462 Speaker 3: minor amounts of time, I think mostly in County Jail, 149 00:09:51,142 --> 00:09:55,302 Speaker 3: but never really got a substantial sentence, And it's horrifying 150 00:09:55,382 --> 00:09:58,262 Speaker 3: when you do read his record, you sort of see 151 00:09:58,302 --> 00:10:03,142 Speaker 3: somebody amping up to progressively more violent crimes and it 152 00:10:03,262 --> 00:10:06,662 Speaker 3: took him lighting a woman on fire to actually get 153 00:10:06,662 --> 00:10:08,342 Speaker 3: any substantial prison time at all. 154 00:10:08,422 --> 00:10:13,542 Speaker 1: Really, what was the state of Michael and Judy's relationship 155 00:10:13,862 --> 00:10:16,262 Speaker 1: by the time we get to August twenty fifteen when 156 00:10:16,262 --> 00:10:17,062 Speaker 1: the fire happened. 157 00:10:18,062 --> 00:10:20,862 Speaker 3: I think Judy was in the process of splitting up 158 00:10:21,022 --> 00:10:24,222 Speaker 3: from him. She knew she needed out of that relationship, 159 00:10:24,222 --> 00:10:28,342 Speaker 3: but she was also wanting to go back to rehab 160 00:10:28,622 --> 00:10:31,422 Speaker 3: to get clean again, because she understood that was part 161 00:10:31,422 --> 00:10:33,862 Speaker 3: of leaving Michael. She had to be sober to get 162 00:10:33,902 --> 00:10:36,222 Speaker 3: away from him because he was so involved in her 163 00:10:36,302 --> 00:10:40,302 Speaker 3: drug life and the way that she in the quote 164 00:10:40,382 --> 00:10:44,702 Speaker 3: unquote safest way possible, got drugs, So she needed to 165 00:10:44,702 --> 00:10:46,702 Speaker 3: get sober to cut it off with him, and he 166 00:10:46,782 --> 00:10:50,742 Speaker 3: was actually driving her to rehab that day when this 167 00:10:50,902 --> 00:10:52,182 Speaker 3: incident happened. 168 00:10:53,502 --> 00:10:56,502 Speaker 1: Can you walk us through what happened? Because the two 169 00:10:56,542 --> 00:10:59,302 Speaker 1: of them were having a bit of an argument behind 170 00:10:59,702 --> 00:11:01,062 Speaker 1: kind of a gas station, weren't they. 171 00:11:02,102 --> 00:11:06,142 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they argued a lot throughout their relationship 172 00:11:06,342 --> 00:11:12,502 Speaker 3: over everything, including some quite in stantial things. My understanding 173 00:11:12,542 --> 00:11:16,062 Speaker 3: is they had stopped to get cigarettes at the gas 174 00:11:16,102 --> 00:11:19,622 Speaker 3: station and Judy was talking about that she wanted to 175 00:11:19,662 --> 00:11:21,982 Speaker 3: do a few more things before she went to rehab, 176 00:11:22,102 --> 00:11:26,742 Speaker 3: that she wanted to go see her kids, and she 177 00:11:26,822 --> 00:11:28,942 Speaker 3: had spoken to her mother, and her mother was wondering 178 00:11:28,942 --> 00:11:30,662 Speaker 3: if she would come by the house to see her 179 00:11:30,702 --> 00:11:34,662 Speaker 3: daughters before she went, and they got into an argument. 180 00:11:35,622 --> 00:11:38,302 Speaker 3: I guess Judy sort of had had enough and threw 181 00:11:38,382 --> 00:11:42,022 Speaker 3: a soda at him, and his response was to dowse 182 00:11:42,062 --> 00:11:47,222 Speaker 3: her in gasoline and thirty forty seconds later come back 183 00:11:47,262 --> 00:11:50,542 Speaker 3: and light her on fire. Michael's version of the story 184 00:11:50,742 --> 00:11:53,822 Speaker 3: is that he was just dowsing her and gasoline to 185 00:11:54,062 --> 00:11:59,662 Speaker 3: quote unquote get her back or throwing the soda on him. Obviously, 186 00:11:59,702 --> 00:12:04,342 Speaker 3: that's pretty improbable, it's not really a normal response. And 187 00:12:04,462 --> 00:12:07,142 Speaker 3: he says that she went up and plamee because less 188 00:12:07,182 --> 00:12:09,222 Speaker 3: than a minute later he wanted to be a gentleman 189 00:12:09,262 --> 00:12:13,062 Speaker 3: and light her cigarette for her. That was his story, 190 00:12:13,302 --> 00:12:17,822 Speaker 3: and Judy's story was that he downstirring gasoline, went back 191 00:12:17,862 --> 00:12:19,742 Speaker 3: to the truck and came up with I think she 192 00:12:19,782 --> 00:12:22,022 Speaker 3: said he looked like the devil. His eyes sort of 193 00:12:22,102 --> 00:12:24,622 Speaker 3: just went black and he lit her on fire and 194 00:12:24,702 --> 00:12:25,582 Speaker 3: she blacked out. 195 00:12:26,342 --> 00:12:28,542 Speaker 1: Well, there were several witnesses, weren't they who watched it 196 00:12:28,542 --> 00:12:31,262 Speaker 1: all happened and then watched him kind of stand there 197 00:12:31,622 --> 00:12:32,382 Speaker 1: and just watch. 198 00:12:33,182 --> 00:12:35,462 Speaker 3: Yeah, there were, Indeed, there were a number of people. 199 00:12:35,462 --> 00:12:38,982 Speaker 3: A veteran, a fellow who's in the Marines who actually 200 00:12:39,022 --> 00:12:41,902 Speaker 3: took the keys away from Michael and stopped him from leaving, 201 00:12:42,502 --> 00:12:46,622 Speaker 3: and a couple. And according to one of the members 202 00:12:46,662 --> 00:12:49,902 Speaker 3: of this couple, he actually was just sort of staring 203 00:12:49,942 --> 00:12:54,342 Speaker 3: at Judy burning until he realized people were looking, at 204 00:12:54,342 --> 00:12:56,622 Speaker 3: which point he does go and get a fire extinguisher, 205 00:12:56,662 --> 00:13:01,982 Speaker 3: but quite a bit of time elapses before he gets 206 00:13:02,102 --> 00:13:05,262 Speaker 3: that fire extinguisher. I would like to think if it 207 00:13:05,262 --> 00:13:07,022 Speaker 3: were me in that situation, I'd be running for the 208 00:13:07,022 --> 00:13:11,062 Speaker 3: fire extinguisher right away. That isn't what happened, And these 209 00:13:11,102 --> 00:13:14,582 Speaker 3: witnesses feel he started to really just make moves once 210 00:13:14,902 --> 00:13:16,622 Speaker 3: he realized he was being observed. 211 00:13:18,102 --> 00:13:21,022 Speaker 1: Judy obviously was taken to hospital. Michael was as well. 212 00:13:22,302 --> 00:13:24,702 Speaker 1: Can you talk us through the extent of the injuries 213 00:13:24,742 --> 00:13:26,502 Speaker 1: that Judy suffered. 214 00:13:27,622 --> 00:13:30,062 Speaker 3: Yes, she was burned over ninety percent of her body. 215 00:13:30,182 --> 00:13:34,062 Speaker 3: She lost her fingers, number of her fingers, her ears. 216 00:13:34,662 --> 00:13:37,902 Speaker 3: She was just covered in open wounds from these burns 217 00:13:38,102 --> 00:13:42,142 Speaker 3: that never healed. She survived seven hundred days after this incident, 218 00:13:42,222 --> 00:13:47,942 Speaker 3: and she never healed completely, and the amount of swelling 219 00:13:48,262 --> 00:13:51,902 Speaker 3: that you experience when you're burned like that. The earliest 220 00:13:52,102 --> 00:13:55,542 Speaker 3: photos of her after the incident, many of which we 221 00:13:55,662 --> 00:13:58,422 Speaker 3: didn't include in the film because if you can believe it, 222 00:13:58,422 --> 00:14:01,822 Speaker 3: they're more graphic than what we did show. I'll use 223 00:14:01,822 --> 00:14:04,742 Speaker 3: her sister's words. She hardly looked like a person. She 224 00:14:04,862 --> 00:14:09,182 Speaker 3: was very, very badly injured. Michael also sustained some burns 225 00:14:09,262 --> 00:14:13,422 Speaker 3: putting her out, which she really liked to talk about. 226 00:14:13,902 --> 00:14:15,462 Speaker 3: In my line of work, I see a lot of 227 00:14:15,942 --> 00:14:19,662 Speaker 3: images of injured people or maimed people, and this was 228 00:14:19,742 --> 00:14:22,702 Speaker 3: by far the worst stuff I'd ever seen. And in fact, 229 00:14:22,782 --> 00:14:25,942 Speaker 3: the marine who was one of the witnesses at the 230 00:14:25,982 --> 00:14:30,862 Speaker 3: crime scene, who had been to war and seeing people 231 00:14:30,942 --> 00:14:32,982 Speaker 3: really seriously Andrews, said it was the worst thing he'd 232 00:14:32,982 --> 00:14:34,382 Speaker 3: seen as well. Well. 233 00:14:34,382 --> 00:14:37,302 Speaker 1: Her daughters didn't even recognize her, and I recall that 234 00:14:37,382 --> 00:14:39,902 Speaker 1: her sister vomited from the side. 235 00:14:40,502 --> 00:14:42,462 Speaker 3: Look, there are some things that just aren't supposed to 236 00:14:42,542 --> 00:14:46,262 Speaker 3: happen to a human body, and I feel like that's 237 00:14:46,702 --> 00:14:49,702 Speaker 3: one of them. I mean, it's very hard to fathom. 238 00:14:49,782 --> 00:14:54,422 Speaker 3: And then to see somebody alive after that. I remember 239 00:14:54,422 --> 00:14:57,142 Speaker 3: seeing those photos and being like, I don't understand how 240 00:14:57,182 --> 00:14:59,982 Speaker 3: she didn't die. The doctors didn't understand how she didn't die. 241 00:15:00,022 --> 00:15:02,102 Speaker 3: That EMTs didn't understand how she didn't die. It was 242 00:15:02,142 --> 00:15:05,342 Speaker 3: just such such a severe thing that happened to her. 243 00:15:10,422 --> 00:15:14,462 Speaker 1: Listening to True Crime Conversations with me Jemma Bass, I'm 244 00:15:14,502 --> 00:15:18,502 Speaker 1: speaking with director Patricia Gillespie about the case of Judy Melanowski, 245 00:15:18,822 --> 00:15:28,582 Speaker 1: who was burnt alive by her boyfriend. You got to 246 00:15:28,622 --> 00:15:33,182 Speaker 1: know Judy's mum, and you interviewed her about her version 247 00:15:33,262 --> 00:15:36,342 Speaker 1: of seeing her daughter like that. What were her recollections 248 00:15:36,382 --> 00:15:38,902 Speaker 1: of that day, about getting that call and about arriving 249 00:15:38,942 --> 00:15:39,622 Speaker 1: at the hospital. 250 00:15:40,382 --> 00:15:42,542 Speaker 3: You know, I think for Barney it was really kind 251 00:15:42,542 --> 00:15:47,062 Speaker 3: of a blur. She gets this call. She's asked, first, hey, 252 00:15:47,062 --> 00:15:49,902 Speaker 3: can we intubate your daughter? Like can we put her 253 00:15:49,942 --> 00:15:53,022 Speaker 3: on a ventilator? And she says, well, yeah, of course, 254 00:15:53,262 --> 00:15:55,662 Speaker 3: and then it takes a couple seconds to click, Oh 255 00:15:55,662 --> 00:15:58,742 Speaker 3: my gosh, that's life support, Like something very serious has 256 00:15:58,822 --> 00:16:02,542 Speaker 3: happened to her. This isn't just an accident or a burn, 257 00:16:02,662 --> 00:16:05,262 Speaker 3: this is, you know, my kids on life support. And 258 00:16:05,822 --> 00:16:08,782 Speaker 3: she describes the experience of going to the hospital, which 259 00:16:08,822 --> 00:16:12,022 Speaker 3: is OSU as a hospital. She lives nearby and drives 260 00:16:12,022 --> 00:16:13,982 Speaker 3: by all the time, and she got lost. She was 261 00:16:14,062 --> 00:16:18,222 Speaker 3: just so dissociated. She rushes into the hospital and they 262 00:16:18,342 --> 00:16:22,062 Speaker 3: finally led her back to see Judy. And this reaction 263 00:16:22,142 --> 00:16:25,662 Speaker 3: that everybody else has sort of chock and horror, isn't 264 00:16:25,782 --> 00:16:28,022 Speaker 3: the reaction that Bonnie has. She just sees her kid. 265 00:16:28,142 --> 00:16:30,702 Speaker 3: She just sees her baby, and she's so happy she's alive. 266 00:16:30,782 --> 00:16:33,182 Speaker 3: And she turns to the doctor and says, tell me, 267 00:16:33,222 --> 00:16:35,142 Speaker 3: there's hope. Tell me there's hope. Tell me there's hope. 268 00:16:35,142 --> 00:16:37,942 Speaker 3: And at that point, the percent of Judy's body that 269 00:16:38,062 --> 00:16:42,862 Speaker 3: was burned, she was almost guaranteed to die. And that's 270 00:16:42,902 --> 00:16:44,862 Speaker 3: not what happened, thanks to the amazing work of the 271 00:16:44,902 --> 00:16:49,182 Speaker 3: doctors that always you and I believe Judy's desire to 272 00:16:50,382 --> 00:16:52,462 Speaker 3: live and see her girls grow up as long as 273 00:16:52,502 --> 00:16:56,102 Speaker 3: she could and try to get some justice for herself 274 00:16:56,262 --> 00:16:58,982 Speaker 3: that kept her alive for that seven hundred days. 275 00:16:59,582 --> 00:17:04,382 Speaker 1: Well, even in that really early period after the fire, 276 00:17:04,502 --> 00:17:06,742 Speaker 1: she was able to give a very brief but a 277 00:17:06,782 --> 00:17:08,742 Speaker 1: bedside interview to cops, wasn't she. 278 00:17:09,862 --> 00:17:14,342 Speaker 3: Yeah, So she was very burnt, and when someone is 279 00:17:14,382 --> 00:17:17,582 Speaker 3: that burnt usually you put them under pretty quickly, just 280 00:17:17,582 --> 00:17:20,102 Speaker 3: because the pain is extremely severe and there's a risk 281 00:17:20,102 --> 00:17:22,382 Speaker 3: of going in shot. So they had put her under 282 00:17:22,422 --> 00:17:25,742 Speaker 3: a bunch of pain medication, but realizing that it was 283 00:17:25,862 --> 00:17:28,662 Speaker 3: very likely she would pass away, the police and the 284 00:17:28,662 --> 00:17:31,302 Speaker 3: doctor's decide together to back her off that a little 285 00:17:31,302 --> 00:17:33,542 Speaker 3: bit so she could become more aware of what was 286 00:17:33,582 --> 00:17:37,222 Speaker 3: going on around her. And the detective on the case, 287 00:17:37,262 --> 00:17:40,862 Speaker 3: who's now a lieutenant, Chad Cohagen, came in and asked 288 00:17:40,862 --> 00:17:42,982 Speaker 3: her if Michael had done this to her, and she 289 00:17:43,222 --> 00:17:44,422 Speaker 3: nodded her head yes. 290 00:17:45,542 --> 00:17:47,982 Speaker 1: And they also had a chat with Mircael, which is 291 00:17:48,502 --> 00:17:51,862 Speaker 1: you can watch that. There's footage of it and it's 292 00:17:51,902 --> 00:17:55,862 Speaker 1: quite eerie. He's very calm and tells that version of 293 00:17:55,862 --> 00:17:57,622 Speaker 1: events you explained earlier. 294 00:17:58,822 --> 00:18:02,102 Speaker 3: Yeah, Michael thought this was all very explainable. He was 295 00:18:02,142 --> 00:18:06,102 Speaker 3: a pretty cool customer. So we got body cam from 296 00:18:06,142 --> 00:18:09,862 Speaker 3: the police in Ohio. It's most American police officers now 297 00:18:10,062 --> 00:18:13,102 Speaker 3: where a body camera and that stuff becomes part of 298 00:18:13,102 --> 00:18:15,782 Speaker 3: the public record eventually in the case of a crime, 299 00:18:16,462 --> 00:18:20,622 Speaker 3: and we were able to get that from the Gahanna Police, 300 00:18:20,702 --> 00:18:25,542 Speaker 3: the investigating agency, and yeah, you see Michael. The thing 301 00:18:25,582 --> 00:18:27,582 Speaker 3: that really shocked me about that is he seemed to 302 00:18:27,582 --> 00:18:30,302 Speaker 3: feel bad for himself because of the burns he had 303 00:18:30,342 --> 00:18:32,542 Speaker 3: sustained trying to save her, and that seemed to be 304 00:18:32,582 --> 00:18:37,342 Speaker 3: his main concern, and he tried to explain how this 305 00:18:37,462 --> 00:18:40,302 Speaker 3: was an accident. He tried to displace blame on Judy 306 00:18:40,342 --> 00:18:43,702 Speaker 3: a little bit, I think for what had happened. And 307 00:18:44,302 --> 00:18:46,742 Speaker 3: Detective kohg And I have to say he did a 308 00:18:46,782 --> 00:18:49,862 Speaker 3: really incredible job. He walked a very fine line between 309 00:18:50,102 --> 00:18:53,942 Speaker 3: hearing him out and not letting him wriggle Away just 310 00:18:54,022 --> 00:18:55,902 Speaker 3: did some very good work. There got a cheek swab 311 00:18:55,942 --> 00:18:59,182 Speaker 3: from him and all that, which I can't imagine being 312 00:18:59,222 --> 00:19:00,982 Speaker 3: able to keep your cool like that and that kind 313 00:19:01,022 --> 00:19:03,262 Speaker 3: of circumstance having just seen Judy. 314 00:19:04,742 --> 00:19:08,182 Speaker 1: Even though there were witnesses, there was also CCTV footage, 315 00:19:08,222 --> 00:19:10,142 Speaker 1: so you can actually watch it all unfold. 316 00:19:10,902 --> 00:19:14,462 Speaker 3: Yeah, you see detective going and tell Michael that in 317 00:19:14,462 --> 00:19:17,422 Speaker 3: the hospital, and I'm not sure that that was something 318 00:19:17,462 --> 00:19:21,062 Speaker 3: Michael realized because the CCTV was actually from a bank 319 00:19:21,342 --> 00:19:24,102 Speaker 3: next door. The drive through ATM had a camera on 320 00:19:24,142 --> 00:19:26,542 Speaker 3: it that could see into the parking lot where this happened. 321 00:19:26,582 --> 00:19:28,822 Speaker 3: So if you were to go into the parking lot 322 00:19:28,822 --> 00:19:31,302 Speaker 3: of the gas station where this happened and look around, 323 00:19:31,382 --> 00:19:34,862 Speaker 3: you wouldn't see a physical camera, but it was one 324 00:19:35,022 --> 00:19:38,022 Speaker 3: parking lot over very close by. You can see the 325 00:19:38,062 --> 00:19:42,062 Speaker 3: whole thing. And to that point, it doesn't really appear 326 00:19:42,102 --> 00:19:44,582 Speaker 3: that Michael and Judy made up to any extent that 327 00:19:44,662 --> 00:19:47,502 Speaker 3: he would be a gentleman and light her cigarette after 328 00:19:47,622 --> 00:19:50,942 Speaker 3: dowsing her and gasoline on that video. 329 00:19:51,182 --> 00:19:55,662 Speaker 1: So as morbid as it sounds, police were kind of waiting. 330 00:19:55,902 --> 00:19:58,222 Speaker 1: They were waiting to see whether Judy would die, to 331 00:19:58,342 --> 00:20:00,942 Speaker 1: kind of see what they would be charging Michael is 332 00:20:01,022 --> 00:20:05,342 Speaker 1: whether it would be murder or something lesser. But Judy 333 00:20:05,382 --> 00:20:09,302 Speaker 1: defied the odds and she woke up after seven months 334 00:20:09,422 --> 00:20:14,222 Speaker 1: in a coma. In terms of her medical treatment, what 335 00:20:14,302 --> 00:20:16,542 Speaker 1: did she endure, because it's not like she woke up 336 00:20:16,582 --> 00:20:19,462 Speaker 1: and was okay. She had multiple surgeries. 337 00:20:20,502 --> 00:20:23,982 Speaker 3: Yeah, she was constantly having surgeries and skin grafts. When 338 00:20:24,022 --> 00:20:28,502 Speaker 3: you're burnt as badly as Judy was. Wound maintenance is 339 00:20:28,542 --> 00:20:32,262 Speaker 3: also really important because One of the major things you 340 00:20:32,262 --> 00:20:35,702 Speaker 3: can die of with burns like that is infection, because 341 00:20:35,782 --> 00:20:38,302 Speaker 3: your skin is what protects you from the outside world, 342 00:20:38,342 --> 00:20:41,302 Speaker 3: and she didn't really have it, so she would regularly 343 00:20:41,382 --> 00:20:44,262 Speaker 3: have to get these wounds cleaned and bebreeded, kind of 344 00:20:45,102 --> 00:20:49,862 Speaker 3: scraping out these wounds, and no amount of pain medication 345 00:20:50,622 --> 00:20:53,502 Speaker 3: made that feel okay. You just can't give someone that 346 00:20:53,542 --> 00:20:56,422 Speaker 3: amount of pain medication. And you also have to consider 347 00:20:56,502 --> 00:20:58,422 Speaker 3: Judy had been she was on her way to rehab. 348 00:20:58,462 --> 00:21:01,622 Speaker 3: She was addicted to opioids, so the doses that might 349 00:21:01,662 --> 00:21:04,302 Speaker 3: work on you or I, they were not as strong 350 00:21:04,342 --> 00:21:06,502 Speaker 3: as they would be for a person without a history 351 00:21:06,502 --> 00:21:09,862 Speaker 3: of opioid abuse as well. So yeah, it was just 352 00:21:09,942 --> 00:21:13,462 Speaker 3: it was a very tough time for her for sure, 353 00:21:13,862 --> 00:21:17,422 Speaker 3: because they expected her to die. The detectives were sort 354 00:21:17,462 --> 00:21:22,142 Speaker 3: of waiting to see. Had Judy died, Michael would have 355 00:21:22,142 --> 00:21:25,022 Speaker 3: been charged with murder, but because she survived, they were 356 00:21:25,142 --> 00:21:30,902 Speaker 3: unable to do that, so they charged him with aggravated arson, which, unfortunately, 357 00:21:30,942 --> 00:21:33,462 Speaker 3: in the state of Ohio, letting your girlfriend on fire 358 00:21:33,502 --> 00:21:37,062 Speaker 3: carries a very similar penalty to letting a car and 359 00:21:37,102 --> 00:21:40,782 Speaker 3: fire like house on fire, So the maximum he could 360 00:21:40,862 --> 00:21:44,502 Speaker 3: get in that instance was about eleven years. 361 00:21:44,462 --> 00:21:47,382 Speaker 1: And the other thing to add to that was that 362 00:21:48,302 --> 00:21:50,142 Speaker 1: there was a real possibility that she was going to 363 00:21:50,142 --> 00:21:53,022 Speaker 1: be able to give testimony if it went to trial, 364 00:21:54,262 --> 00:21:56,862 Speaker 1: but he changed his plate to no contest, so he 365 00:21:57,222 --> 00:21:58,902 Speaker 1: effectively silenced too. 366 00:22:00,062 --> 00:22:04,102 Speaker 3: Yeah, so they're approaching this trial and Judy is not 367 00:22:04,142 --> 00:22:06,942 Speaker 3: only able to testify, she really wants to testify because 368 00:22:06,982 --> 00:22:10,262 Speaker 3: she is even though this is on video, her testimony 369 00:22:10,822 --> 00:22:13,742 Speaker 3: is that sinks it. When your victim lives and can 370 00:22:13,782 --> 00:22:16,542 Speaker 3: say that she knows you did this with malice and 371 00:22:16,742 --> 00:22:21,862 Speaker 3: can provide an alternative story of what we all see 372 00:22:21,902 --> 00:22:25,422 Speaker 3: on that tape, that was pretty much going to ensure 373 00:22:25,462 --> 00:22:28,502 Speaker 3: a conviction. And I think Michael realized this that between 374 00:22:28,542 --> 00:22:30,702 Speaker 3: the fact that there was a tape at all and 375 00:22:30,782 --> 00:22:33,302 Speaker 3: that Judy, who had to be just about the most 376 00:22:33,302 --> 00:22:35,382 Speaker 3: sympathetic person you could put on the stand, was going 377 00:22:35,462 --> 00:22:37,942 Speaker 3: to explain what we were watching on that tape, Michael 378 00:22:37,982 --> 00:22:41,622 Speaker 3: realized that he was definitely going to be convicted, and 379 00:22:41,662 --> 00:22:45,662 Speaker 3: he took a lead deal, but he pled in this way. 380 00:22:45,702 --> 00:22:48,982 Speaker 3: He took something called an Alfred plea. I'm not sure 381 00:22:49,022 --> 00:22:51,622 Speaker 3: if you have this in Australia, but in the US 382 00:22:51,822 --> 00:22:56,742 Speaker 3: you can plead guilty by essentially saying, well, I'm not 383 00:22:56,942 --> 00:23:01,222 Speaker 3: saying I'm guilty, but I'm choosing to plead guilty because 384 00:23:01,262 --> 00:23:03,182 Speaker 3: I think you have the evidence convict me, and I 385 00:23:03,222 --> 00:23:06,862 Speaker 3: would rather get this lesser sentence. So that's where the 386 00:23:07,182 --> 00:23:08,862 Speaker 3: eleven years came from. 387 00:23:09,222 --> 00:23:11,702 Speaker 1: So he's not admitting fulk. That's a real slap in 388 00:23:11,742 --> 00:23:13,342 Speaker 1: the face by doing that plea. 389 00:23:14,582 --> 00:23:18,302 Speaker 3: Yeah, the alpha plea is very complicated because it's like 390 00:23:18,782 --> 00:23:22,822 Speaker 3: the justice system here, like anywhere, is not perfect. And 391 00:23:22,862 --> 00:23:26,102 Speaker 3: I've heard stories of innocent people who fled guilty because 392 00:23:26,142 --> 00:23:29,822 Speaker 3: the optics of who they were and the crime they 393 00:23:29,862 --> 00:23:31,902 Speaker 3: were charged with and where they were being tried. They 394 00:23:31,902 --> 00:23:33,742 Speaker 3: were like, I would rather take a deal for seven 395 00:23:33,822 --> 00:23:36,702 Speaker 3: years than a deal for twenty years, right, And So 396 00:23:37,222 --> 00:23:39,782 Speaker 3: in some ways, I think it's good that exists so 397 00:23:39,822 --> 00:23:43,262 Speaker 3: people can say their peace right. And part of the 398 00:23:43,262 --> 00:23:46,782 Speaker 3: reason you can do that is because it's covered by 399 00:23:46,902 --> 00:23:49,702 Speaker 3: free speech right. You can say whatever you want and 400 00:23:49,742 --> 00:23:52,022 Speaker 3: take your plea. But on the other hand, I think 401 00:23:52,222 --> 00:23:55,302 Speaker 3: in cases where the person is guilty, it's really painful 402 00:23:55,342 --> 00:23:57,862 Speaker 3: for the victim's family, And I know it was painful 403 00:23:57,862 --> 00:24:02,502 Speaker 3: for Judy because she just really wanted him to take accountability. 404 00:24:03,502 --> 00:24:06,822 Speaker 1: Well, he did get eleven years initially, and the judge, 405 00:24:07,502 --> 00:24:10,142 Speaker 1: she was very damning. Can you tell us about the 406 00:24:10,182 --> 00:24:12,302 Speaker 1: scent or her sentencing remarks? 407 00:24:12,662 --> 00:24:17,702 Speaker 3: Yeah, the judge was ticked off. She told Michael that 408 00:24:17,822 --> 00:24:20,262 Speaker 3: she wished she could sentence him to more and that 409 00:24:20,302 --> 00:24:23,942 Speaker 3: she couldn't because of the laws. And you know, it's interesting. 410 00:24:24,022 --> 00:24:25,742 Speaker 3: Bonnie and I talked about this a lot where we 411 00:24:25,742 --> 00:24:29,062 Speaker 3: were like, Okay, well, in what way should this law 412 00:24:29,622 --> 00:24:32,462 Speaker 3: be expanded? Should you create a lot of expand sentences 413 00:24:32,462 --> 00:24:35,422 Speaker 3: for people like this? How should you make sure people 414 00:24:35,422 --> 00:24:40,222 Speaker 3: who commit this sort of crime get sentenced appropriately? And 415 00:24:40,782 --> 00:24:44,142 Speaker 3: it's tough because I think in the States, we like 416 00:24:44,222 --> 00:24:47,822 Speaker 3: to think of these crimes of like immolation or asset attacks. 417 00:24:48,182 --> 00:24:50,782 Speaker 3: They think of these things as something that happens somewhere else, 418 00:24:51,422 --> 00:24:54,782 Speaker 3: when in reality that's not true. There are many, many 419 00:24:54,822 --> 00:25:00,022 Speaker 3: instances every year of intimate partners who intentionally disfigure their 420 00:25:00,102 --> 00:25:04,542 Speaker 3: victims and also strangers. Right, we had it's a worldwide phenomenon. 421 00:25:04,582 --> 00:25:07,582 Speaker 3: Now we've had intel murders where people are being killed 422 00:25:07,662 --> 00:25:13,822 Speaker 3: or disfigured by disgruntled, in voluntary celibate person who sort 423 00:25:13,862 --> 00:25:16,182 Speaker 3: of just goes off the rails and goes postal, and 424 00:25:16,742 --> 00:25:21,382 Speaker 3: there's not really any specific law for that type of crime. 425 00:25:22,102 --> 00:25:24,462 Speaker 3: And I think early in the process when Bonnie was thinking, 426 00:25:24,662 --> 00:25:26,262 Speaker 3: she was like, well, why isn't that sort of a 427 00:25:26,302 --> 00:25:28,822 Speaker 3: hate crime? Right? If you're like, you're a woman, you 428 00:25:28,862 --> 00:25:31,262 Speaker 3: won't be with me. I'm going to essentially try to 429 00:25:31,262 --> 00:25:35,262 Speaker 3: make you quote unquote ugly or I'm going to It's 430 00:25:35,302 --> 00:25:36,862 Speaker 3: not just I'm going to kill you, it's I'm going 431 00:25:36,902 --> 00:25:41,102 Speaker 3: to disfigure you. Why isn't that class as a specific 432 00:25:41,182 --> 00:25:43,582 Speaker 3: kind of crime because statistically, you just don't see it 433 00:25:43,582 --> 00:25:46,222 Speaker 3: happened to men nearly as much as women. But that 434 00:25:46,302 --> 00:25:50,502 Speaker 3: was a little bit complicated. So once that decision came 435 00:25:50,542 --> 00:25:52,582 Speaker 3: down and he got such a light sentence for something 436 00:25:52,582 --> 00:25:56,462 Speaker 3: that had really changed Duty's entire life, her family started 437 00:25:56,502 --> 00:26:00,622 Speaker 3: to pursue changing that law by adding time to the 438 00:26:00,662 --> 00:26:05,462 Speaker 3: sentences of attackers who intentionally disfigure their victims. So, right 439 00:26:05,582 --> 00:26:09,862 Speaker 3: after that court case went the way it did, Judy 440 00:26:10,502 --> 00:26:14,822 Speaker 3: decided to launch a campaign alongside a number of state 441 00:26:14,862 --> 00:26:19,622 Speaker 3: centers in Ohio to pass something called Judy's Law, which 442 00:26:19,702 --> 00:26:22,742 Speaker 3: adds six years to the sentences of attackers who intentionally 443 00:26:22,822 --> 00:26:27,222 Speaker 3: disfigure their victims using an accelerant. So it's pretty narrow, 444 00:26:27,382 --> 00:26:29,902 Speaker 3: but it did lay the groundwork and set a precedent 445 00:26:30,142 --> 00:26:33,662 Speaker 3: for a federal law, something that's nationwide as opposed to 446 00:26:33,662 --> 00:26:36,942 Speaker 3: in the state of Ohio, and also a pathway to say, well, 447 00:26:37,262 --> 00:26:40,542 Speaker 3: there are elements of an assault or an aggravated arson 448 00:26:40,622 --> 00:26:43,782 Speaker 3: that push it past the base charges. Right, this is 449 00:26:43,782 --> 00:26:46,422 Speaker 3: different than punching someone in the face and breaking their nose, 450 00:26:46,542 --> 00:26:48,222 Speaker 3: and the sentencing should reflect that. 451 00:26:49,102 --> 00:26:51,222 Speaker 1: We're skipping forward a bit. But they were successful in 452 00:26:51,262 --> 00:26:51,782 Speaker 1: passing that. 453 00:26:52,822 --> 00:26:58,142 Speaker 3: Yeah, So Judy's law was signed into law, unfortunately just 454 00:26:58,542 --> 00:27:01,582 Speaker 3: a few days after she passed away, but it had 455 00:27:01,622 --> 00:27:04,622 Speaker 3: passed in the House and Senate when she was still alive, 456 00:27:04,702 --> 00:27:08,382 Speaker 3: and she got to understand that that law was moving forward, 457 00:27:08,742 --> 00:27:10,262 Speaker 3: and I think that was one of the things she 458 00:27:10,582 --> 00:27:13,182 Speaker 3: was most proud of, next to her girls. 459 00:27:14,222 --> 00:27:18,662 Speaker 1: I think it's worth acknowledging just how strong Judy was 460 00:27:18,862 --> 00:27:24,262 Speaker 1: as a person. She was enduring daily unimaginable pain, and 461 00:27:24,302 --> 00:27:27,862 Speaker 1: she's fighting for this law as well as which we're 462 00:27:27,862 --> 00:27:31,542 Speaker 1: about to talk about. She ends up giving testimony for 463 00:27:31,622 --> 00:27:38,222 Speaker 1: her future murder trial, which is another incredible history making change. 464 00:27:39,182 --> 00:27:40,342 Speaker 1: How did that come about? 465 00:27:41,342 --> 00:27:47,542 Speaker 3: So it started to look like Judy's condition was not 466 00:27:47,662 --> 00:27:50,982 Speaker 3: going to improve. A lot of time had gone by 467 00:27:51,342 --> 00:27:56,382 Speaker 3: and it looked likely that though Judy wasn't dying imminently, 468 00:27:57,022 --> 00:27:59,622 Speaker 3: After about a year, they saw that the skin graphs 469 00:27:59,622 --> 00:28:01,942 Speaker 3: weren't taking and it was going to be a matter 470 00:28:01,982 --> 00:28:04,022 Speaker 3: of time until she passed away. She would pass away 471 00:28:04,062 --> 00:28:09,542 Speaker 3: prematurely from these injuries. And knowing that the das said 472 00:28:09,622 --> 00:28:12,462 Speaker 3: that when she died they would take Michael up on 473 00:28:12,582 --> 00:28:15,782 Speaker 3: murder charges. It becomes a new crime. She passed away, 474 00:28:15,822 --> 00:28:18,502 Speaker 3: it's no longer just an assault. It's murdered. They're going 475 00:28:18,582 --> 00:28:22,302 Speaker 3: to charge him with that. And they were going to 476 00:28:22,302 --> 00:28:25,502 Speaker 3: petition the state of Ohio to allow her to pre 477 00:28:25,582 --> 00:28:30,022 Speaker 3: record sworn testimony in advance of her death, which had 478 00:28:30,062 --> 00:28:34,462 Speaker 3: never happened in a criminal court before. Warren Edwards, who's 479 00:28:34,582 --> 00:28:37,102 Speaker 3: now a judge but at the time was the ADA. 480 00:28:37,982 --> 00:28:42,662 Speaker 3: He adapted a civil statute that was actually designed for 481 00:28:42,782 --> 00:28:47,182 Speaker 3: mesothelioma victims. It's a substance that people inhaled that ended 482 00:28:47,262 --> 00:28:49,862 Speaker 3: up giving them lung cancer. And there were a number 483 00:28:49,942 --> 00:28:53,822 Speaker 3: of civil lawsuits people suing the companies that gave them 484 00:28:53,822 --> 00:28:59,142 Speaker 3: these mesothelioma related health conditions posthumously, so they would record 485 00:28:59,182 --> 00:29:02,422 Speaker 3: a deposition in advance of their death, and then once 486 00:29:02,502 --> 00:29:05,782 Speaker 3: they died, this would be played at the civil trial 487 00:29:05,822 --> 00:29:09,182 Speaker 3: where they were where their family was suing. Right, And 488 00:29:09,302 --> 00:29:11,342 Speaker 3: there's a law in the United States that says, if 489 00:29:11,422 --> 00:29:14,862 Speaker 3: there is no specification whether you can or cannot do 490 00:29:15,022 --> 00:29:17,222 Speaker 3: something in a criminal court a law, you can adapt 491 00:29:17,342 --> 00:29:22,502 Speaker 3: civil law. And so Warren saw that, and he adapted 492 00:29:22,502 --> 00:29:25,542 Speaker 3: this civil statute and presented this argument to the judge, saying, Hey, 493 00:29:25,582 --> 00:29:27,102 Speaker 3: if we can do this in civil court, we should 494 00:29:27,102 --> 00:29:29,822 Speaker 3: do it in criminal court. And we don't want to 495 00:29:29,862 --> 00:29:32,342 Speaker 3: take just a deathbed statement from her. We want to 496 00:29:32,342 --> 00:29:35,422 Speaker 3: be real testimony. We want her to be sworn in, 497 00:29:35,862 --> 00:29:39,142 Speaker 3: put under oath, and both questioned by the DA and 498 00:29:39,502 --> 00:29:43,302 Speaker 3: cross examined formally. And so they won the right to 499 00:29:43,342 --> 00:29:45,782 Speaker 3: do that, and that's what they did. But Judy had 500 00:29:45,822 --> 00:29:48,222 Speaker 3: to back off her pain medication in order to be 501 00:29:48,302 --> 00:29:51,022 Speaker 3: considered of sound mind, which you have to be to 502 00:29:51,062 --> 00:29:54,902 Speaker 3: testifying in the American courts. So she experienced a tremendous 503 00:29:54,902 --> 00:29:58,382 Speaker 3: amount of pain. She had to learn to talk over 504 00:29:58,462 --> 00:30:02,702 Speaker 3: and off the event. She was not speaking super clearly 505 00:30:02,822 --> 00:30:04,822 Speaker 3: at the time. This decision was made. So she had 506 00:30:04,862 --> 00:30:07,022 Speaker 3: to push herself to really be able to be heard 507 00:30:07,102 --> 00:30:10,902 Speaker 3: and to come off that ventilater And yeah, she also 508 00:30:10,902 --> 00:30:13,702 Speaker 3: had to practice to be cross examined, which any woman 509 00:30:13,742 --> 00:30:16,182 Speaker 3: who's ever been in the American court system can tell you. 510 00:30:16,222 --> 00:30:18,982 Speaker 3: It's not a friendly place for victims, particularly victims of 511 00:30:19,022 --> 00:30:23,182 Speaker 3: domestic violence, partner violence, or offenses like that. There's a 512 00:30:23,262 --> 00:30:27,902 Speaker 3: lot of victim lane that goes down. But she steeled 513 00:30:27,942 --> 00:30:31,982 Speaker 3: herself and she did it, and she endured three hours 514 00:30:32,062 --> 00:30:35,342 Speaker 3: of questioning and most of that was the defense. 515 00:30:51,142 --> 00:30:54,422 Speaker 1: Watching some of that testimony, you can tell that she's 516 00:30:54,462 --> 00:30:58,742 Speaker 1: in pain and she's struggling, but she does not waiver. 517 00:30:59,342 --> 00:31:02,742 Speaker 1: She gives incredible testimony. Would you agree? 518 00:31:03,502 --> 00:31:07,822 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think she was a shockinging, reliable narrator for 519 00:31:07,862 --> 00:31:11,222 Speaker 3: what happened to her and mosteole I think when they 520 00:31:11,262 --> 00:31:13,702 Speaker 3: go through something like that, they can't recall the kind 521 00:31:13,782 --> 00:31:16,942 Speaker 3: of detail that she could. And she could, but unfortunately, 522 00:31:16,982 --> 00:31:21,942 Speaker 3: the defense attorney kept trying to poke holes in her 523 00:31:21,982 --> 00:31:24,822 Speaker 3: memory because she didn't remember what she was wearing that day, 524 00:31:24,902 --> 00:31:28,302 Speaker 3: or she didn't remember where they had stopped before the speedway, 525 00:31:28,382 --> 00:31:30,862 Speaker 3: or she didn't remember and you know, there's this moment 526 00:31:30,862 --> 00:31:32,382 Speaker 3: where she looks at him, and she says, you have 527 00:31:32,462 --> 00:31:36,302 Speaker 3: to understand, I was dowse gazzling and set on fire 528 00:31:36,462 --> 00:31:38,102 Speaker 3: like over ninety percent of my body, so I'm not 529 00:31:38,142 --> 00:31:41,182 Speaker 3: going to remember every perfect detail. And I remember seeing 530 00:31:41,182 --> 00:31:43,302 Speaker 3: that moment in her test when I was like, hell yeah, 531 00:31:43,462 --> 00:31:46,382 Speaker 3: like you tell him she made him look awful and 532 00:31:46,422 --> 00:31:49,022 Speaker 3: it was and she was mad, and it was a 533 00:31:49,022 --> 00:31:54,062 Speaker 3: great moment. I think there's a lot of pressure on victims, 534 00:31:54,502 --> 00:31:57,622 Speaker 3: especially female victims. Maybe this is unique to the US, 535 00:31:57,702 --> 00:32:00,382 Speaker 3: but I think it's most places in the world. There's 536 00:32:00,422 --> 00:32:03,742 Speaker 3: this pressure on them to be like kind of beaten 537 00:32:03,822 --> 00:32:06,702 Speaker 3: down and soft and de mirror. And she just was 538 00:32:06,742 --> 00:32:09,382 Speaker 3: not about it. So she let the defense attorney know 539 00:32:09,502 --> 00:32:11,702 Speaker 3: she was not impressed with the questions she was asking. 540 00:32:11,862 --> 00:32:14,782 Speaker 3: Also asked, you know, just even the question what were 541 00:32:14,822 --> 00:32:18,542 Speaker 3: you wearing? It's just like, excuse me. She really stood aground. 542 00:32:19,222 --> 00:32:22,062 Speaker 3: You have to also remember she's doing this not knowing 543 00:32:22,622 --> 00:32:26,302 Speaker 3: that it will ever officially be admitted. So what the 544 00:32:26,342 --> 00:32:28,862 Speaker 3: first ruling was that allowed them to record this testimony 545 00:32:28,942 --> 00:32:31,622 Speaker 3: was just that you're allowed to record it, and then 546 00:32:31,662 --> 00:32:34,102 Speaker 3: at a later time when Michael is charged, then the 547 00:32:34,142 --> 00:32:36,302 Speaker 3: new court case begins and they have to argue about 548 00:32:36,342 --> 00:32:38,582 Speaker 3: it all over again. They have to say, will we 549 00:32:38,782 --> 00:32:40,702 Speaker 3: admit this? Okay, we gave you the right to record it, 550 00:32:40,742 --> 00:32:43,262 Speaker 3: will we admit it. And so she recorded all this 551 00:32:43,502 --> 00:32:47,102 Speaker 3: knowing she would never know whether it would be admitted 552 00:32:47,142 --> 00:32:49,462 Speaker 3: into court. And when you think about coming off your 553 00:32:49,462 --> 00:32:54,022 Speaker 3: pain meds, being interrogated about some of the weakest moments 554 00:32:54,022 --> 00:32:56,422 Speaker 3: in your life, your drug use, a relationship you shouldn't 555 00:32:56,422 --> 00:32:58,262 Speaker 3: have been in, what you did when, and who you 556 00:32:58,342 --> 00:33:02,302 Speaker 3: might have interacted with in what ways, and just all 557 00:33:02,382 --> 00:33:05,982 Speaker 3: that sort of victim blame and pressure and pain and 558 00:33:06,022 --> 00:33:09,022 Speaker 3: to not even know if it'll count. And she did 559 00:33:09,062 --> 00:33:12,742 Speaker 3: it anyway, you know, I think that's incredibly heroic and 560 00:33:12,822 --> 00:33:15,902 Speaker 3: incredibly inspiring. And you know, I think when she showed 561 00:33:15,982 --> 00:33:18,662 Speaker 3: up for that testimony, and they do try to poke 562 00:33:18,702 --> 00:33:20,502 Speaker 3: a lot of holes in her life, right, they try 563 00:33:20,502 --> 00:33:22,822 Speaker 3: to shatter the illusion of the perfect victim, which of 564 00:33:22,822 --> 00:33:26,622 Speaker 3: course doesn't exist. And I think a lot of women 565 00:33:27,422 --> 00:33:32,222 Speaker 3: are afraid to prosecute their abusers because they understand that 566 00:33:32,262 --> 00:33:35,382 Speaker 3: will be part of the process. And I think that 567 00:33:35,702 --> 00:33:39,462 Speaker 3: Judy showing up and doing that was not just for her, 568 00:33:39,582 --> 00:33:43,942 Speaker 3: it was for them. And I think it shows that 569 00:33:44,022 --> 00:33:46,542 Speaker 3: the justice system if you get the right people in 570 00:33:46,582 --> 00:33:49,342 Speaker 3: the room, can work even if you're not perfect, and 571 00:33:49,382 --> 00:33:52,302 Speaker 3: that pressure of the perfect victim or to be the 572 00:33:52,342 --> 00:33:56,022 Speaker 3: perfect victim, that we can break that down slowly, and 573 00:33:56,102 --> 00:33:58,582 Speaker 3: I think Judy did a lot of that for us. 574 00:33:59,182 --> 00:34:01,222 Speaker 1: She was also able to use it as an opportunity 575 00:34:01,262 --> 00:34:04,342 Speaker 1: to call out the police, call out the authorities and 576 00:34:04,382 --> 00:34:07,662 Speaker 1: the systems that she tried to use again and again 577 00:34:07,702 --> 00:34:08,902 Speaker 1: and again that didn't work. 578 00:34:09,782 --> 00:34:12,542 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he was really disappointed. It was one 579 00:34:12,622 --> 00:34:16,542 Speaker 3: of those things where I went in there feeling before 580 00:34:16,582 --> 00:34:19,422 Speaker 3: I did my research like the police had mishandled something. 581 00:34:20,062 --> 00:34:22,262 Speaker 3: But the more I spoke to them, the more I realized, 582 00:34:22,462 --> 00:34:26,022 Speaker 3: just like Michael sentencing, it's not so much that the 583 00:34:26,062 --> 00:34:29,142 Speaker 3: police didn't care or didn't try to do their job, 584 00:34:29,822 --> 00:34:33,822 Speaker 3: it's that the laws limited them so severely. Like Michael 585 00:34:33,862 --> 00:34:37,382 Speaker 3: had been staying at her apartment for a period of time, 586 00:34:37,422 --> 00:34:39,422 Speaker 3: he was not on the lease, but once he was 587 00:34:39,462 --> 00:34:42,862 Speaker 3: there thirty days, she can't just put him out. He 588 00:34:42,982 --> 00:34:46,022 Speaker 3: like lives there, right, So you know, there's like they 589 00:34:46,102 --> 00:34:49,182 Speaker 3: kept bumping into all sorts of things like this, or 590 00:34:49,222 --> 00:34:51,742 Speaker 3: Michael also did something that a lot of abusers do, 591 00:34:52,382 --> 00:34:56,382 Speaker 3: and Michael started calling the police on her falsely, so 592 00:34:56,422 --> 00:34:58,262 Speaker 3: that when the police would show up and she'd say, hey, 593 00:34:58,302 --> 00:35:00,942 Speaker 3: this guy's beating me, they would look at the record. 594 00:35:01,182 --> 00:35:03,222 Speaker 3: If they were able to look at the record, they 595 00:35:03,262 --> 00:35:04,982 Speaker 3: would look at the record and they would see, oh, well, 596 00:35:05,022 --> 00:35:08,102 Speaker 3: he's called on her, so it's he said, she said, 597 00:35:08,622 --> 00:35:11,822 Speaker 3: when it's really not. This is a tactic abusers use, 598 00:35:12,422 --> 00:35:14,942 Speaker 3: and that training isn't there, and nor is the law 599 00:35:14,982 --> 00:35:18,942 Speaker 3: to really do anything about it. Abusers escalate, right, and 600 00:35:18,982 --> 00:35:21,462 Speaker 3: the law doesn't necessarily account for that. And you see 601 00:35:21,462 --> 00:35:24,142 Speaker 3: that in Michael's record. You see these numerous domestic violence 602 00:35:24,222 --> 00:35:27,582 Speaker 3: charges and the sentence doesn't really escalate. There's no diversion program. 603 00:35:27,662 --> 00:35:30,502 Speaker 3: There's nowhere for him to go or to send him 604 00:35:30,542 --> 00:35:33,222 Speaker 3: on a legal basis to stop him. Right, there's no 605 00:35:33,342 --> 00:35:35,342 Speaker 3: legal way to stop him, even though you see these 606 00:35:35,382 --> 00:35:40,302 Speaker 3: repetitive charges escalating in the same way when someone's calling 607 00:35:40,342 --> 00:35:44,142 Speaker 3: the police not once, not twice, but ten fifteen times 608 00:35:44,382 --> 00:35:47,702 Speaker 3: seeing my boyfriend's beating me. Anyone who has half a 609 00:35:47,742 --> 00:35:50,302 Speaker 3: brain in their head understands is eventually going to escalate. 610 00:35:50,862 --> 00:35:54,342 Speaker 3: But there is no legal way to say, well, now 611 00:35:54,382 --> 00:35:56,862 Speaker 3: you've done it ten times, so we think you really 612 00:35:56,942 --> 00:35:58,862 Speaker 3: might killers. So we're going to escalate this to a 613 00:35:58,902 --> 00:36:01,022 Speaker 3: new form of policing, or we're going to surveil you more, 614 00:36:01,062 --> 00:36:02,462 Speaker 3: we're going to take you out of the house or 615 00:36:02,502 --> 00:36:03,942 Speaker 3: take him out of the house. You kind of just 616 00:36:04,382 --> 00:36:07,342 Speaker 3: have to wait for it to happen. And that's our law. 617 00:36:07,662 --> 00:36:10,702 Speaker 3: That's how the law works here, and I think we 618 00:36:10,742 --> 00:36:14,102 Speaker 3: should question whether there are smarter ways to police this 619 00:36:14,262 --> 00:36:15,022 Speaker 3: kind of violence. 620 00:36:15,782 --> 00:36:18,662 Speaker 1: Well, there's similar holes in our system, and we see 621 00:36:18,662 --> 00:36:21,462 Speaker 1: the same stuff going through the courts, the same problems, 622 00:36:22,062 --> 00:36:24,462 Speaker 1: and it's not easy to fix. That's the thing, because 623 00:36:24,502 --> 00:36:26,622 Speaker 1: there's so many different elements that you kind of have 624 00:36:26,662 --> 00:36:29,342 Speaker 1: to target. It's just so sad that we have to 625 00:36:29,422 --> 00:36:33,262 Speaker 1: keep watching it happen again and again and again. After 626 00:36:33,622 --> 00:36:37,302 Speaker 1: giving her testimony, Judy died five months later. So in 627 00:36:37,422 --> 00:36:42,142 Speaker 1: June twenty seventeen, she was put into a hospice. There 628 00:36:42,182 --> 00:36:44,262 Speaker 1: was basically nothing well that they could do, was there. 629 00:36:45,422 --> 00:36:49,302 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean she sort of stopped responding in treatment. 630 00:36:49,502 --> 00:36:53,142 Speaker 3: These skin grafts weren't going to work, and you can't 631 00:36:53,222 --> 00:36:57,942 Speaker 3: live a normal lifespan with open wounds. So I believe 632 00:36:59,142 --> 00:37:02,262 Speaker 3: most likelyhood she passed away from her autopsy, says it 633 00:37:02,262 --> 00:37:04,262 Speaker 3: was a direct result of the burns, but you know, 634 00:37:04,302 --> 00:37:07,662 Speaker 3: your organs kind of start to shut down. So you know, 635 00:37:07,742 --> 00:37:10,702 Speaker 3: she fought for a very long time, and I think 636 00:37:10,702 --> 00:37:16,102 Speaker 3: that testimony also, her condition declined very steeply after that testimony, 637 00:37:16,662 --> 00:37:18,582 Speaker 3: and I think some of that was just the effort 638 00:37:18,942 --> 00:37:21,862 Speaker 3: involved in giving that testimony, but also I think she 639 00:37:21,902 --> 00:37:24,102 Speaker 3: felt she had to keep it together to get through 640 00:37:24,142 --> 00:37:27,382 Speaker 3: that that that was a herculean effort, and afterwards she 641 00:37:27,382 --> 00:37:30,342 Speaker 3: felt she'd set her peace and she could let go. 642 00:37:30,502 --> 00:37:32,502 Speaker 3: But she would have hung in there if she could 643 00:37:32,582 --> 00:37:35,782 Speaker 3: have in any condition, because she loved her kids. She 644 00:37:35,902 --> 00:37:38,822 Speaker 3: really loved her kids and they loved her, and I 645 00:37:38,822 --> 00:37:40,542 Speaker 3: think that's why she was able to go as long 646 00:37:40,582 --> 00:37:41,342 Speaker 3: as she did. 647 00:37:41,462 --> 00:37:45,622 Speaker 1: Well two years that is an incredible fate. Yeah, so 648 00:37:45,822 --> 00:37:49,262 Speaker 1: Michael is charged with murder, as we expect after she dies. 649 00:37:49,942 --> 00:37:52,662 Speaker 1: But then, like you also alluded to, comes the next 650 00:37:52,742 --> 00:37:57,222 Speaker 1: fight where the defense is trying to exclude her testimony 651 00:37:57,942 --> 00:37:58,782 Speaker 1: from the court. 652 00:37:59,062 --> 00:38:02,422 Speaker 3: Yeah, so they had a number of hearings about whether 653 00:38:02,542 --> 00:38:06,462 Speaker 3: or not that testimony should be admissible. This was precedent setting. 654 00:38:06,502 --> 00:38:10,382 Speaker 3: It hadn't happened before, so you can challenge anything new 655 00:38:10,622 --> 00:38:12,862 Speaker 3: in the court system. Quite a bit, but thankfully the 656 00:38:12,982 --> 00:38:16,782 Speaker 3: judge did rule that he was going to admit this testimony, 657 00:38:17,582 --> 00:38:24,742 Speaker 3: and that was really bad for Michael. So, you know, 658 00:38:24,822 --> 00:38:26,942 Speaker 3: and this is a murder case in Ohio. He's facing 659 00:38:26,982 --> 00:38:30,422 Speaker 3: the death penalty. His life is on the line, and 660 00:38:30,702 --> 00:38:33,022 Speaker 3: the best case inn earra if he's convicted, is pretty 661 00:38:33,102 --> 00:38:35,182 Speaker 3: much like in prison, and the worst case is they're 662 00:38:35,222 --> 00:38:38,262 Speaker 3: going to give him the needle. But Michael was very 663 00:38:38,302 --> 00:38:40,622 Speaker 3: insistent in the months leading up to this trial that 664 00:38:40,702 --> 00:38:42,982 Speaker 3: he wanted to go to trial, go to trial. He 665 00:38:43,022 --> 00:38:45,262 Speaker 3: was going to prove he was innocent. I think his 666 00:38:45,342 --> 00:38:51,342 Speaker 3: lawyers were skeptical. Annie Judy's mom. It was very important 667 00:38:51,702 --> 00:38:56,342 Speaker 3: to her that he be made to take accountability in 668 00:38:56,382 --> 00:38:59,102 Speaker 3: whatever way that was. So when they started to talk 669 00:38:59,142 --> 00:39:03,102 Speaker 3: about Michael potentially taking a plea deal, Bonnie was really 670 00:39:03,142 --> 00:39:05,302 Speaker 3: clear that if he was going to plead, he would 671 00:39:05,342 --> 00:39:07,902 Speaker 3: need to plead guilty. He could not plead no contest 672 00:39:07,982 --> 00:39:11,902 Speaker 3: because she would not accept anything else. And so as 673 00:39:11,982 --> 00:39:13,942 Speaker 3: they moved up to the court date, was a little 674 00:39:13,982 --> 00:39:16,822 Speaker 3: unclear whether or not they were going to go for 675 00:39:16,862 --> 00:39:21,662 Speaker 3: a full trial or whether he was going to plead. 676 00:39:21,902 --> 00:39:25,742 Speaker 3: And the morning of that first hearing, I was there, 677 00:39:27,022 --> 00:39:29,782 Speaker 3: and we really didn't know. We went into that court 678 00:39:29,822 --> 00:39:31,702 Speaker 3: room and we didn't understand if we were going to 679 00:39:31,742 --> 00:39:34,222 Speaker 3: be hearing some pre trial motions and then showing up 680 00:39:34,262 --> 00:39:37,662 Speaker 3: the next day for jury selection, or if the whole 681 00:39:37,662 --> 00:39:39,662 Speaker 3: thing was going to end right there. And thankfully he 682 00:39:39,742 --> 00:39:44,822 Speaker 3: did decide to plead, apparently because his attorneys brought his 683 00:39:44,942 --> 00:39:49,222 Speaker 3: daughter to the jail the night before and she was like, Dad, like, 684 00:39:49,542 --> 00:39:52,542 Speaker 3: please please plead guilty, because at least you'll be alive. 685 00:39:52,822 --> 00:39:54,622 Speaker 3: Even if you're in jail, at least you'll be alive, 686 00:39:54,862 --> 00:39:57,742 Speaker 3: and I don't want you to die. And that is 687 00:39:57,782 --> 00:40:03,182 Speaker 3: supposedly the turning point for him. After he pled, one 688 00:40:03,222 --> 00:40:05,462 Speaker 3: of the conditions of his fee was that they would 689 00:40:05,502 --> 00:40:09,982 Speaker 3: play Judy's testimony in court in order to cement the 690 00:40:10,062 --> 00:40:13,342 Speaker 3: legal precedent she had set by testifying in advance of 691 00:40:13,342 --> 00:40:15,942 Speaker 3: her death. That sort of finalized the things, so now 692 00:40:15,982 --> 00:40:18,902 Speaker 3: anyone in the States can use that ruling to testify 693 00:40:18,982 --> 00:40:22,782 Speaker 3: if if they find themselves in an analogous situation. So 694 00:40:22,822 --> 00:40:26,182 Speaker 3: they played the testimony, which was a very powerful moment. 695 00:40:26,302 --> 00:40:28,902 Speaker 3: She was sort of like alive as this ghost on screen, 696 00:40:29,462 --> 00:40:31,782 Speaker 3: finally able to tell her stories. She literally had to 697 00:40:31,822 --> 00:40:34,062 Speaker 3: die before anyone could hear her version of the story 698 00:40:34,062 --> 00:40:37,582 Speaker 3: in public. And then it comes time for the sentencing, 699 00:40:37,702 --> 00:40:40,622 Speaker 3: and they had asked her in the testimony to give 700 00:40:40,622 --> 00:40:44,182 Speaker 3: a victim's impact statement, which she has a right to do. 701 00:40:44,262 --> 00:40:45,822 Speaker 3: She has the right to say what sentence she wants 702 00:40:45,862 --> 00:40:49,022 Speaker 3: them to get, and she had said she did not 703 00:40:49,102 --> 00:40:52,102 Speaker 3: want him to get the death penalty. I forget exactly 704 00:40:52,102 --> 00:40:53,782 Speaker 3: how they said it. They were like, and if he 705 00:40:53,862 --> 00:40:56,422 Speaker 3: is convicted of this crime, what would you like to 706 00:40:56,422 --> 00:40:58,022 Speaker 3: seem get And she said, I'd like to see Hm 707 00:40:58,062 --> 00:41:00,742 Speaker 3: get life. I think he deserves that. And she had 708 00:41:00,782 --> 00:41:03,622 Speaker 3: the power to say kill him, and she didn't. And 709 00:41:03,702 --> 00:41:07,182 Speaker 3: I really think that's says a lot about her character. 710 00:41:07,622 --> 00:41:09,982 Speaker 3: She understood in that moment she could hold that man's 711 00:41:10,022 --> 00:41:12,342 Speaker 3: life in her hands after everything he did to her, 712 00:41:12,382 --> 00:41:13,862 Speaker 3: and she decided to show mercy. 713 00:41:15,302 --> 00:41:18,582 Speaker 1: I think a really interesting part of your documentary was 714 00:41:19,662 --> 00:41:23,582 Speaker 1: the inside a look we got at her kids struggling 715 00:41:23,662 --> 00:41:27,382 Speaker 1: with everything that happened. They gave you incredible access where 716 00:41:27,382 --> 00:41:29,942 Speaker 1: you kind of saw the girls who were still kind 717 00:41:29,942 --> 00:41:32,622 Speaker 1: of teenagers or young women when you were speaking to them, 718 00:41:33,142 --> 00:41:35,662 Speaker 1: struggling to come to terms with their mum's addiction. Which 719 00:41:35,742 --> 00:41:37,942 Speaker 1: they didn't know about because they were too young, and 720 00:41:37,982 --> 00:41:41,222 Speaker 1: then also struggling to come to terms with the fact 721 00:41:41,262 --> 00:41:44,302 Speaker 1: that Michael would be in prison, but he'd still get 722 00:41:44,342 --> 00:41:47,182 Speaker 1: to see his family and they wouldn't. They don't get 723 00:41:47,182 --> 00:41:49,702 Speaker 1: to see their mums, So why why does he get 724 00:41:49,742 --> 00:41:52,102 Speaker 1: to see his family? I thought that was such an 725 00:41:52,182 --> 00:41:57,022 Speaker 1: incredibly powerful insight to be able to give the public. 726 00:41:58,502 --> 00:42:01,342 Speaker 3: You know, one of the things that I'm preoccupied by 727 00:42:01,542 --> 00:42:03,702 Speaker 3: and almost all my work is this idea of like 728 00:42:03,782 --> 00:42:09,382 Speaker 3: the shrapnel of violence, right, Like when somebody is killed 729 00:42:09,582 --> 00:42:12,902 Speaker 3: or severely harmed, or forced in or any of the 730 00:42:12,902 --> 00:42:17,782 Speaker 3: bad stuff, right, it's not just that victim that's hurt. 731 00:42:17,982 --> 00:42:20,502 Speaker 3: It's like everyone who loves them, everyone in their orbit, 732 00:42:20,582 --> 00:42:23,302 Speaker 3: people in their community, people in their work life. Like, 733 00:42:23,422 --> 00:42:27,382 Speaker 3: it's just these things have a ripple effect. And I 734 00:42:27,462 --> 00:42:31,622 Speaker 3: was struck when I met Bonnie by like how her 735 00:42:31,662 --> 00:42:34,022 Speaker 3: and Judy and the girls had sort of they were 736 00:42:34,022 --> 00:42:37,022 Speaker 3: like this island of women, right, like supporting each other, 737 00:42:37,102 --> 00:42:41,102 Speaker 3: getting each other through. And I related to that because 738 00:42:41,222 --> 00:42:45,702 Speaker 3: I was raised almost exclusively by my mom, who had 739 00:42:45,742 --> 00:42:47,822 Speaker 3: a very close relationship with their mom, and we were 740 00:42:47,902 --> 00:42:51,982 Speaker 3: the island of women, right. And I think when it 741 00:42:52,022 --> 00:42:56,542 Speaker 3: comes to domestic violence, it is so felt not just 742 00:42:56,582 --> 00:42:59,622 Speaker 3: by that victim, but by the victim's mother and by 743 00:42:59,622 --> 00:43:03,502 Speaker 3: the victim's children. And I was very preccupied with the 744 00:43:03,622 --> 00:43:07,982 Speaker 3: children because they're girls, they're young girls. This is happening 745 00:43:08,022 --> 00:43:10,302 Speaker 3: at a time in their life where they're deciding what 746 00:43:10,542 --> 00:43:12,502 Speaker 3: is the future going to look like for them when 747 00:43:12,542 --> 00:43:15,222 Speaker 3: they start dating? What will that look like? Will they 748 00:43:15,262 --> 00:43:18,182 Speaker 3: be able to trust someone enough, Will they be able 749 00:43:18,182 --> 00:43:20,622 Speaker 3: to trust a man enough after seeing what happened to 750 00:43:20,622 --> 00:43:23,582 Speaker 3: their mom that they can have the healthy relationships they deserve, 751 00:43:23,782 --> 00:43:25,982 Speaker 3: Or if they saw too much of the wrong thing, 752 00:43:26,022 --> 00:43:30,022 Speaker 3: will they accidentally unconsciously repeat unhealthy patterns? And how do 753 00:43:30,062 --> 00:43:32,182 Speaker 3: they reckon with this while they're just trying to figure 754 00:43:32,182 --> 00:43:35,662 Speaker 3: out how to be women and they're seeing their mom 755 00:43:35,902 --> 00:43:38,782 Speaker 3: undergo a lot of these things that, let's just be real, 756 00:43:38,822 --> 00:43:42,222 Speaker 3: their gender based crimes. I'm not saying that domestic violence 757 00:43:42,262 --> 00:43:45,502 Speaker 3: doesn't happen to men. It certainly does. I'm not saying 758 00:43:45,502 --> 00:43:48,662 Speaker 3: it's an exclusively female problem, but there is a lot 759 00:43:48,702 --> 00:43:53,742 Speaker 3: of sexism surrounding whether she was listened to when she 760 00:43:53,822 --> 00:43:55,982 Speaker 3: was first reporting it, whether she was believed in court, 761 00:43:56,462 --> 00:43:59,982 Speaker 3: how people looked at her addiction, how people listen to 762 00:44:00,062 --> 00:44:05,422 Speaker 3: Michael when he would counter her story right, I was 763 00:44:05,502 --> 00:44:08,062 Speaker 3: just very preoccupied with how that would shape those girls. 764 00:44:08,102 --> 00:44:10,662 Speaker 3: And thankfully they're very strong like their mother, and they're 765 00:44:10,702 --> 00:44:15,062 Speaker 3: all doing great. They have very normal young adult lives 766 00:44:15,102 --> 00:44:19,942 Speaker 3: and they're thriving. Kiki is in Kreli at a university 767 00:44:19,982 --> 00:44:24,102 Speaker 3: not far from where her grandmother lives. And Maddie is 768 00:44:24,262 --> 00:44:28,102 Speaker 3: finishing up high school and she's on the cheerleading team 769 00:44:28,302 --> 00:44:31,142 Speaker 3: and doing while in school and has a really sweet, 770 00:44:31,342 --> 00:44:37,942 Speaker 3: nice boyfriend, and it's just great to see. 771 00:44:39,342 --> 00:44:42,742 Speaker 1: Thanks to Patricia Gillespie for assisting us to tell this story. 772 00:44:42,862 --> 00:44:45,102 Speaker 1: You can find the guests film The Fire that took 773 00:44:45,142 --> 00:44:48,542 Speaker 1: Her in our show notes. True Crime Conversations is a 774 00:44:48,622 --> 00:44:51,582 Speaker 1: Muma mea podcast hosted and produced by me Jemma Bath 775 00:44:51,662 --> 00:44:55,542 Speaker 1: and Tarlie Blackman, with audio design by Scott Stronik. Thanks 776 00:44:55,582 --> 00:44:57,862 Speaker 1: so much for listening. I'll be back next week with 777 00:44:57,942 --> 00:44:59,502 Speaker 1: another true Crime Conversation.