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Speaker 1: This episode of Seize the A is brought to you

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Speaker 1: by zero online accounting software that helps you do business

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Speaker 1: but better it.

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Speaker 2: Don't always have those moments where doing what we're passionate

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Speaker 2: about is economically, practically emotionally feasible. But finding the way

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Speaker 2: to weave in my passions what interests me, even in

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Speaker 2: the smallest ways, has been the way that doors have

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Speaker 2: opened and the ways that opportunities have come up.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Sees the YA podcast. Busy and happy

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Speaker 1: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what

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Speaker 1: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but

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Speaker 1: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than

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Speaker 1: one way. So this is a platform to hear and

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Speaker 1: explore the stories of those who found lives they adore,

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Speaker 1: the good, bad and ugly. The best and worst day

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Speaker 1: will bear all the facets of Seizing your YEA. I'm

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Speaker 1: Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned

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Speaker 1: fu entrepreneur whos wapped the suits and heels to co

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Speaker 1: found matcha Maiden and matcha Milk Bar.

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Speaker 3: DA is a series.

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Speaker 1: Of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring

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Speaker 1: the self doubt challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. Hello,

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Speaker 1: beautiful people, I am so excited to share one of

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Speaker 1: the women whose praises I could sing over and over,

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Speaker 1: who was originally lined up for International Women's Day, for

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Speaker 1: the incredible impact she has had on my journey through

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Speaker 1: many different chapters. Doctor Alexandra Feelen was a few years

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Speaker 1: ahead of me at Monash University, and you'll hear has

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Speaker 1: a very similar personality combination of Nerd Burger and Artifarti

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Speaker 1: with a splash of languages, and also started her career

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Speaker 1: at the same law firm as I did, now known

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Speaker 1: as King Ofwood Mallison's, which was one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: I originally wanted to work there. While we both ultimately

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Speaker 1: left corporate law. Alex is a glowing example of how

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Speaker 1: you can stay within the law and still find a

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Speaker 1: niche that suits your strengths and interests, and she has

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Speaker 1: gone on to become a seriously impressive member of the

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Speaker 1: Center for Global Health, Science and Security at Georgetown University

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Speaker 1: School of Medicine, an assistant professor in the Department of

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Speaker 1: Microbiology and Immunology, and an adjunct professor of law at

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Speaker 1: Georgetown University Law Center. That is three different departments. Her

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Speaker 1: honors thesis in her undergrad of biomade Science and Law

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Speaker 1: and her doctoral thesis both focus on international law and

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Speaker 1: the prevention of infectious diseases, including the challenges and risks

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Speaker 1: we face in managing those diseases with things like quarantine,

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Speaker 1: wearing masks, anything ring a bell here, which has made

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Speaker 1: her a leading global authority on health security and incredibly

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Speaker 1: relevant to the world's response to COVID nineteen. She is

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Speaker 1: infinitely impressive, painfully humble, and continues to inspire me every day,

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Speaker 1: and I am so honored that she made time to

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Speaker 1: join the show from Washington, DC. Alex shares some fascinating

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Speaker 1: insights on the more technical side to the challenge of

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Speaker 1: a globe pandemic like COVID, and particularly on the challenges

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Speaker 1: over the last fifteen months that have been faced around

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Speaker 1: the world. With her intellect and empathy shining through, I hope.

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Speaker 3: You learn as much as I did.

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Speaker 1: Lovely, Alex, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me, Sarah it is It's

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Speaker 2: just so lovely to chat with you and connect with

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Speaker 2: you from Afar.

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Speaker 3: It's just so nice to see your face. It's been

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Speaker 3: such a long time.

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Speaker 2: I feel the same way, you know, because it's not

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Speaker 2: just seeing you, but also it brings back real grounding

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Speaker 2: for me. I think, you know, being over in the US,

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Speaker 2: and obviously over the year that this has been to

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Speaker 2: sort of connect back in the home here, a familiar

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Speaker 2: accent is just particularly special.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I can imagine just that little slice of home

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Speaker 1: and a little bit of a Bogan accent.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, guys, Alex is one of those people who has

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Speaker 1: truly been a huge influence on my life through so

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Speaker 1: many different parts of it. You know. I always talk

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Speaker 1: about check and how you don't need to see the

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Speaker 1: whole staircase to take the first step and building the

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Speaker 1: right neighborhood, and Alex is relevant to all of those

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Speaker 1: for me.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: At university, we were at the same Uni. Alex was

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Speaker 1: a few years ahead of me, and we both loved

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Speaker 1: law and languages and travel, and then we worked at

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Speaker 1: the same law firm. And part of the reason I

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Speaker 1: wanted to go there was because Alex had.

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Speaker 3: Started at Mellson's before me.

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Speaker 1: Through so many different chapters of my life, you have

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Speaker 1: just been such a huge inspiration and role model and

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Speaker 1: I'm so honest to have you on the show.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Sarah. That's just a really touching and lovelady here.

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Speaker 2: It's been a lovely journey together in different ways as

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Speaker 2: well as we've both sort of gone off in different

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Speaker 2: paths from those common common steps.

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Speaker 1: And that's what I love, that none of us ever

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Speaker 1: knew where we'd end up from those common foundations. And

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Speaker 1: you're such a wonderful example of someone who also left

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Speaker 1: corporate law but stayed within the law to find a

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Speaker 1: niche that fits you so well and that all the

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Speaker 1: pieces really make sense. But before we jump into that,

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Speaker 1: I always kick off with a little icebreaker to break

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Speaker 1: down the glossy surface or fancy titles that were often

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Speaker 1: introduced to people with and you know as my intellectual

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Speaker 1: hero and now an assistant professor and a junk professor

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Speaker 1: doing seriously impressive things at a global level, make us

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Speaker 1: feel a bit better and share something really down to

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Speaker 1: earth about you.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know how relatable it is, but my downtime,

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Speaker 2: my switch off time, has always been since I was

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Speaker 2: a little kid playing video games. Yeah, so like because

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Speaker 2: of pandemic, I still don't have a PS five, but

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Speaker 2: you know I've got my PC. I've got my PlayStation,

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Speaker 2: I've got my switch, I've got Yeah, I love gaming,

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Speaker 2: and some of it is to connect back with people

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Speaker 2: back home, but a lot of it is just to

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Speaker 2: really switch off. And I've managed to get in some

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Speaker 2: good gaming sessions over this last year working from home,

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Speaker 2: which has been a huge Really Alex your faith.

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Speaker 1: But this is why this is my favorite question because

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Speaker 1: it always unearths things that are so quirky, that's so normal,

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think when people do get introduced

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Speaker 1: to sort of the surface level of someone's career rather

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Speaker 1: than who they are, like what they do rather than

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Speaker 1: who they are, it's really hard to imagine, Like what

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Speaker 1: does an adjunct professor of law working on global international

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Speaker 1: health policy do when they get home at night?

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Speaker 3: You know, it's sort of hard.

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Speaker 1: To understand who you are, But that is amazing.

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Speaker 2: Essentially, what I do when I get home is build

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Speaker 2: really uninhabitable houses in the sims, or kill monsters in

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Speaker 2: which are or play with friends in destiny. Yeah. That's

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Speaker 2: been a really really bit of a life save but

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Speaker 2: always been part of part of wow.

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Speaker 3: And I love that too.

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Speaker 1: That, like, you know, that one of the things I

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Speaker 1: talk about the most. And we will of course, get

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Speaker 1: to that is Plata and the idea that everyone, even

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Speaker 1: if you're passionate about your job, needs something that is

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Speaker 1: so unrelated to it and so unproductive in relation to

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Speaker 1: your job and your vocation, just to get your brain

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Speaker 1: pulled away from it.

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Speaker 2: That's all right. You know, I cannot play video games

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Speaker 2: about infectious disease like anything is about like the zombie game.

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Speaker 2: I cannot play it like that. It's just it's just

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Speaker 2: too close to work.

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Speaker 1: So what was your major barrier during COVID? I couldn't

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Speaker 1: source my gaming machine that I needed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, on the level of you know, on Mazl's hierarchy

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Speaker 2: of needs, you know PS five really isn't up.

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Speaker 3: There, or is it?

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Speaker 2: Though?

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Speaker 3: I feel like, yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, good point. I think it's so easy in whuther

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Speaker 2: it be sort of crisis response mode or during you know,

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Speaker 2: pretty big international events like we're all going through, and

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Speaker 2: when you're doing serious work during the day, when you're

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Speaker 2: dealing with human rights issues and to as you said,

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Speaker 2: not have that play and have that sort of gentleness

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Speaker 2: with yourself to actually go it's okay to not be serious.

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Speaker 2: It's okay to just switch off, and you know, every

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Speaker 2: second doesn't have to necessarily be about trying to get

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Speaker 2: something out and make an impact, and how that's actually

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Speaker 2: really really important totally.

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Speaker 1: And I think especially over the past sort of fifteen

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Speaker 1: to eighteen months, for anyone whose job is actually important

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Speaker 1: for the global direction of.

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Speaker 3: How we come through this pandemic.

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Speaker 1: You know, I always say, I've really had to reevaluate

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Speaker 1: my idea of urgency and like, if people don't get

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Speaker 1: their matri Green tea or podcasts, like, nothing's going to happen. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: for certain people in the world, like you know, frontline

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Speaker 1: workers and people like yourself researching and working on policy,

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Speaker 1: it actually.

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Speaker 3: Matters when you take a break.

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Speaker 1: So it would be even harder to sort of carve

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Speaker 1: out that time.

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Speaker 3: For you again, which we will get to, but I.

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Speaker 1: Would love to start with the first section, which is

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Speaker 1: your way toa And I think one of the things

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Speaker 1: that again gets skated over a lot in other conversations

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Speaker 1: is we do get to see people like yourself on

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Speaker 1: the news making big statements about, you know, prevention of

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Speaker 1: infectious diseases, and you've been doing some incredible research all

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Speaker 1: the way back to you know, your doctoral work to

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Speaker 1: now what you're doing over at Georgetown before COVID was

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Speaker 1: even a thing, and through the ebolavirus. But looking back

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Speaker 1: at us at Uni, it sort of fascinates me how

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Speaker 1: someone could ever conceive of making their way to a

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Speaker 1: position like yours and you sort of you know, you

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Speaker 1: hear all these people and it's like, how did you

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Speaker 1: get there?

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Speaker 3: How did you.

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Speaker 1: Even know that that was a pathway? When did you

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Speaker 1: decide that that was a thing? You know, it's quite

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Speaker 1: a specialist way to applay your skills. But yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think the whole journey of figuring out what we like,

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Speaker 1: what we don't like, and starting in corporate and all

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Speaker 1: those kinds of things is important to trace back to

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Speaker 1: to show everyone that it's not linear ever, that there's

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Speaker 1: lots of twists and turns, some that you don't really love.

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Speaker 3: Some that you do really love.

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Speaker 1: So take us all the way back to young Alex

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Speaker 1: as a kid, What were you like, what was your

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Speaker 1: first job?

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Speaker 3: What were you like?

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Speaker 1: Eltham College, Leafy Green bel Bernie suburb like, who were

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Speaker 1: you back then?

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Speaker 3: And then take us story each chapter to now.

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Speaker 2: So I think, you know, if I go all the

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Speaker 2: way back to you know, growing up in Albham and

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Speaker 2: Warren divers. I think I've always had an eclectic range

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Speaker 2: of interests, and that is, you know, I've always done

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Speaker 2: like basketball, whilst really into music and the choirs and singing,

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Speaker 2: and then languages and so and history. So I just

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Speaker 2: I've always had this range of eclectic interests, which that's

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Speaker 2: a nice way of putting. I have a really short

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Speaker 2: attention span, and I need to be constantly overstimulated to focus,

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Speaker 2: and so you know, through primary school and even then

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Speaker 2: through high school, like you know, I'd be playing basketball

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Speaker 2: but also in the choirs. But then from the age

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Speaker 2: of sort of fifty and I've spent a huge amount

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Speaker 2: of time living and studying and working in China. You know,

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Speaker 2: that was where my passions were. You know, I needed

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Speaker 2: to be doing music to get that outlet, I needed

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Speaker 2: to be doing sport to get that movement. And you know,

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Speaker 2: my interests were in the sciences and literature, and I

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Speaker 2: kind of just never felt how I could actually put

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Speaker 2: it all together. And I started to realize that what

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Speaker 2: I had been sort of creating by accident with this,

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Speaker 2: you know, these many short attention spans, was in my

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Speaker 2: mind the idea of a little bit like a tapestry,

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Speaker 2: like lots of different colored threads that just don't look

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Speaker 2: you know, sitting on table next to each other. They're

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Speaker 2: completely contrasting and there's no sort of cohesion. But when

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Speaker 2: you start to weave them together in the story, you

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Speaker 2: start to see this image appear. And for me, that

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Speaker 2: sort of after you know, doing what I was very

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Speaker 2: interested in in high school, which made no sense to

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Speaker 2: anyone from the outside. You know, I was doing theater

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Speaker 2: and chemistry and biology in Chinese and literature and.

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Speaker 3: Mass you know.

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Speaker 2: When I went to university, I started with a biomedical

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Speaker 2: science degree because I had just the love of sciences,

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Speaker 2: and I originally thought, do I want to go into medicine,

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Speaker 2: and then realized that no, I wanted to know. I

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Speaker 2: was fascinated by viruses, you know, these time little pathogens

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Speaker 2: that can do so much and so incredibly adept at

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Speaker 2: changing to circumstances. That was you know, interest. But I

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Speaker 2: was also lucky enough at Monash having the ability to

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Speaker 2: do double degrees, and so Monash allowed me to do

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Speaker 2: biomedical science and a diploma of Languages Mandarin Chinese, so

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Speaker 2: I could keep my Chinese going, but it also allowed

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Speaker 2: me to do a law degree at the same time,

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Speaker 2: so I was able to do all three all three

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Speaker 2: at the same time. That was just to have that

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Speaker 2: sort of diversity, to be able to be doing taughts

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Speaker 2: and reading these case studies and then going into a

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Speaker 2: microbiology lab. And so Monash was the one place in

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Speaker 2: you know, Victoria that let me do all of that,

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Speaker 2: and it just really worked for me. It fitted with

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Speaker 2: how I think and approach things and that tapestry and

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Speaker 2: was able to keep building. And my final year of

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Speaker 2: my law degree, I was like, I need to I

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Speaker 2: had an offer to go start at this law firm

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Speaker 2: at that Moleson's, and I had twelve subjects to go,

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Speaker 2: all law subjects, and so I was like, right, that's it.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing twelve subjects at a year to finish my

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Speaker 2: law degree.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 1: That is literally one hundred and fifty loading of what

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Speaker 1: you you know, most of us do eight subjects, and

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Speaker 1: in fact some of us do six, so that we

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Speaker 1: can cope with the workload.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: It was intense, but it gave me an opportunity to

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Speaker 2: do research and I did an honors thesis looking at

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Speaker 2: a piece of international law called the International Health regulations

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Speaker 2: that tries to prevent international spread of disease, and how

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Speaker 2: Australia had implemented it, and whether that impacted human rights,

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Speaker 2: whether Australia had appropriately considered what if we were to

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Speaker 2: quarantine people, what if we were to close the borders,

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Speaker 2: what if we were to compulsory require vaccination. And my

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Speaker 2: contention was as we had failed to update our legislation appropriately.

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Speaker 2: And I went on off to Malison's. So i'd sort

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Speaker 2: of managed to bring some of the threads together, a

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Speaker 2: little bit of the buyomed the law, a little bit

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Speaker 2: of China because these laws were adopted after the first

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Speaker 2: sar's outbreak. So I went to Mallison's and I was

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Speaker 2: really loving the practical skills. I really loved working in

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Speaker 2: the law firm, and I started to work more onto

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Speaker 2: the China and law. So I was started to was

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Speaker 2: always trying to find a way to balance at least

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Speaker 2: two interests, you know, there was always some sort of

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Speaker 2: connection and working in sort of the climate change and

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Speaker 2: clean tech size of law. But because I can't focus

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Speaker 2: on one thing at once, I started to do a

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Speaker 2: master's up at A and U in Canberra. So i'd

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Speaker 2: got up there on weekends because it was how I said,

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Speaker 2: but I sort of do it intensively. And I got

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Speaker 2: an opportunity to go to Geneva as part of that

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Speaker 2: for a subject. And when I went to Geneva, I

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Speaker 2: presented that thesis from my law degree to a couple

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Speaker 2: of folks and I was offered some internships, one at

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Speaker 2: the w at the World Health Organization, and one as

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Speaker 2: legal counsel at Garvey the Vaccine Alliance. I had a

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Speaker 2: big questions, well, which one do I pick? And I thought, well,

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Speaker 2: what if I don't pick?

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Speaker 1: And oh, of course, I'm pretty sure you micro biologized

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Speaker 1: a way to be superhuman or to be in more

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Speaker 1: than one place at the same time.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I sent a message back to my

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Speaker 2: supervising partner at the firm and I said, look, I've

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Speaker 2: got these offers. I've saved up just enough money that

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Speaker 2: would maybe allow me to do this, and they gave

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Speaker 2: me a leave of absence and I moved to Geneva

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Speaker 2: for nine months. And you know, it was a huge

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Speaker 2: leap of faith. It was something that I was fortunate

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Speaker 2: that I'd been in a position by working at the firm,

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Speaker 2: to be able to do and I didn't know what

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Speaker 2: the outcome would because they were just internships. As you know,

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Speaker 2: there's actively no guarantee of a job. In fact, it's

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Speaker 2: the opposite. You often can't work there for a little while.

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Speaker 2: When I was there, I decided to use opportunity to

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Speaker 2: speak to mentors about you know, what would you recommend

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Speaker 2: for going into this into the field of global health

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Speaker 2: if that's what I wanted to do. You know, do

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Speaker 2: I want to be in house counsel in a health

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Speaker 2: organization or do I want to work on global health

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Speaker 2: and law? And the advice I consistently got was was

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Speaker 2: critical to get a PhD or equivalent. And you know,

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Speaker 2: to really pick the supervisor. Don't pick the university. You

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Speaker 2: know different the amazing university around the world, but really

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Speaker 2: what matters is who your supervisor is. When I was

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Speaker 2: at WHL, I met Professor Lawrence Gostin, who was at

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Speaker 2: George Chain University is the world leader on global health law.

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Speaker 2: He said, come come to George Shown, come to your PhD.

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Speaker 2: And I've just used all my money to live in

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Speaker 2: to finance at the intern and I was fortunate enough

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Speaker 2: to be successful in a general Sir John Monash Scholarship

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Speaker 2: and which was huge. It was life changing. Without the

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Speaker 2: support of the General Sir John Monash Foundation, none of

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Speaker 2: this path would have been possible.

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Speaker 1: And I actually remember that, Yeah, remember that announcement.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was.

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Speaker 2: It was a moment where I just couldn't believe it,

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Speaker 2: Like I just couldn't process that it had actually happened.

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Speaker 2: And so I applied to George shown with that, I

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Speaker 2: was successful of getting into George shun Law for their

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Speaker 2: PhD equivalent. It's called a Doctorate of Juridical Science. They

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Speaker 2: don't do PhDs in law in the US. It's like

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Speaker 2: a different sort of program.

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Speaker 3: And I saw that your letters are like SJD or something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Yeah, which my student's joke is super JD,

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Speaker 2: which it actually is. Yeah, I kind of it's like

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Speaker 2: a five year program, five year research program. So I said,

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Speaker 2: I'll be perfectly honest with you. I knew nothing about Joorshtown.

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Speaker 2: I all my life had been focused on China and

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Speaker 2: that was where, you know, I'd always focus on China

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Speaker 2: and lawyers, you know, I tend to do their masters

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Speaker 2: whatever at up, like I got Oxford or a classic

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Speaker 2: sort of UK legal system, and that was a bit stuffy.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to go to a place where my sort

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Speaker 2: of way of approaching lots of issues all at once

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Speaker 2: and with enthusiasm would be part of the way academia works,

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Speaker 2: all of the way it works. And the US is

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Speaker 2: you know, it's one of the greatest. Yeah, and there's

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Speaker 2: a place that actively encourages people to take risks. My

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Speaker 2: biggest risk was, you know, getting off a plane in Washington, DC,

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Speaker 2: my first time in the US on a hot August

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Speaker 2: night in twenty thirteen and going, Okay, well, I guess

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Speaker 2: I'm doing I'm doing this, And you know, I was

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Speaker 2: very lucky to have Larry Bostman as my as my

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Speaker 2: supervisor and as a mentor that essentially over the the

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Speaker 2: last eight years so my PhD and then I have

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Speaker 2: been subsequent appointed to various faculty positions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a major downplay of what you actually do.

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Speaker 1: So let me just read it out, guys, because Alex

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Speaker 1: will be like, oh, just you know, pointed to a

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Speaker 1: few little things after her doctoral work, which was investigating

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Speaker 1: how national law can facilitate response to and prevention of

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Speaker 1: infectious diseases, which is so incredibly relevant that it's just

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Speaker 1: almost painful. How that all aligned she's now a member

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Speaker 1: of the Center for Global Health, Science and Security at

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Speaker 1: Georgetown University School of Medicine, So that's one faculty, an

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Speaker 1: assistant professor in the Department of Microbiology and Immunology a

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Speaker 1: different department, and and adjunct professor of Law at Georgetown

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Speaker 1: University Law Center, a different faculty. So I should have

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Speaker 1: actually said welcome, doctor Alexandra feel in to the show.

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Speaker 1: So now your doctor feeling as well. It is so

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Speaker 1: incredible having gone through UNI until now in your orbit

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Speaker 1: and been around to watch this all unravel. It's just

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Speaker 1: so fascinating. And firstly, anyone who has listened to the

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Speaker 1: podcast will see the very very strong parallels between us

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Speaker 1: with our great love for so many different passions in

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Speaker 1: all different directions, and a bit of languages there and

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Speaker 1: as well, and Arti Fardi versus Nerdy and the tapestry

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Speaker 1: you speak about is such a beautiful visual. I call

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Speaker 1: it the jigsaw puzzle, which is kind of similar. You

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Speaker 1: know that every chapter is either getting rid of pieces

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Speaker 1: that aren't working anymore or adding totally new pieces you

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Speaker 1: didn't know existed.

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Speaker 3: I'm actually really impressed with.

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Speaker 1: Myself that anything I say is similar to what you say,

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Speaker 1: but I always love to emphasize that at each phase,

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Speaker 1: right up until the internship, like you said, you didn't

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Speaker 1: know what the outcome would be. You had no idea

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Speaker 1: what the next chapter would be, but you just kept

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Speaker 1: putting one foot in front of the other and using

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Speaker 1: the data from each chapter to figure out what the

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Speaker 1: next step is. And you couldn't have jumped from UNI

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Speaker 1: to now without all of those steps. And I think

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Speaker 1: we do really try and rush to the end and

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Speaker 1: find just one purpose. But if you're multi passionate, maybe

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Speaker 1: you're not supposed to have just one purpose.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think when you say Czas, it's finding we

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Speaker 2: don't always have those moments where doing what we're passionate

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Speaker 2: about is economically, practically emotionally feasible. Right. There's always the

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Speaker 2: ground truthing of life and day to day life that

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Speaker 2: comes in. But finding the I've found that finding the

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Speaker 2: way to weave in my passions what interests me, even

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Speaker 2: in the smallest ways, has been the way that doors

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Speaker 2: have opened and the ways that opportunities have come up.

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Speaker 2: And you know, you say that that idea, you don't

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Speaker 2: actually know what's going what each step is going to take,

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Speaker 2: and it is a bit like driving through the fog,

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Speaker 2: where you're like, look, I can see this a little

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Speaker 2: bit in front of me. I'm going to go that

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Speaker 2: little bit and to see where I can get from

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Speaker 2: where that takes me. I think this is a really

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Speaker 2: really spot on way of thinking about and I think

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Speaker 2: when you've got lots of interest and lots of passions,

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Speaker 2: that's potentially even heightened because you don't have a model

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Speaker 2: to look to, have a biography to pick up and

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Speaker 2: read and go Okay, well that's the path I need

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Speaker 2: to take, and so it is invariably always going to

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Speaker 2: be trying to sort of make sure you've got your

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Speaker 2: foot on the next step before you put all your

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Speaker 2: weight onto it.

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Speaker 1: I always think having lots of interests is so exciting

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Speaker 1: and dynamic, but it does make that part of your

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Speaker 1: life when you change your decision making matrix from what

440
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,199
Speaker 1: I'm good at and what I like as e vent

441
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 1: diagram to letting the shoulds and societal norms on success

442
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:27,960
Speaker 1: and expectations kind of creep in.

443
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:29,080
Speaker 3: It makes it really.

444
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 1: Difficult because you're right, there is no logical path when

445
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 1: you're interested in often diametrically opposed things like Chinese language

446
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,200
Speaker 1: and then social health and immunology and microbiology and climate

447
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:41,360
Speaker 1: change and corporate law.

448
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:43,680
Speaker 3: But I think what I love about.

449
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,879
Speaker 1: These stories and diving a little deeper, is that ultimately

450
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,640
Speaker 1: people do often make their way into the niche that

451
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 1: pulls all those things together. And perhaps we're the first

452
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 1: generation where we have seen that more and more because

453
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,439
Speaker 1: there are more gray areas of careers that didn't exist before.

454
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 1: Men who would have ever imagined that your thesis back

455
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,439
Speaker 1: at university was pretty much targeted at an exact COVID

456
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:10,680
Speaker 1: situation you would become the global authority for decades later.

457
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it's so so fascinating, And I actually barely

458
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,639
Speaker 1: even understood what you did before now because it wasn't

459
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 1: contextualized into a situation that now I'm like, oh my gosh,

460
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 1: you have been preparing for a decade for this exact situation.

461
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,200
Speaker 1: But that's why it's so cool, because you were doing

462
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,920
Speaker 1: it before it was globally relevant. And like you said,

463
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 1: you know, you have to trust your gut. Sometimes your

464
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 1: passion isn't economically viable or the hottest topic. And this

465
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,160
Speaker 1: is where I would love to just pick your brain

466
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 1: so much on the decision making process of having faith

467
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 1: that what you were doing would be relevant one day

468
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 1: and all of that stuff. But I think given that,

469
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 1: you know, we can't talk of five hours as much

470
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 1: as I love to, what would be really important to

471
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,159
Speaker 1: hear from you is your perspective from being in the

472
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: thick of it, how COVID unraveled for you in a

473
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: global position of authority on health security, what your views

474
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 1: are on how we've dealt with it, how it felt

475
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 1: to apply your exact skills to a global situation that

476
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 1: you've written about for years. And you've just had the vaccine,

477
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:13,360
Speaker 1: you know how that went for you, and what you're

478
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 1: now is like, yeah.

479
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,679
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of contradictions in it, right, So

480
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,640
Speaker 2: the vaccination is actually nice little analogy for it. So

481
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,160
Speaker 2: I got my first dose, which was a moment of

482
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 2: such a feeling of light, you know, just incredible that

483
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 2: in a year we've gone from the emergence of a

484
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 2: novel infectious disease to having a countermeasure that's going to

485
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 2: save lives, and having not just one, but many, many

486
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 2: different vaccines. I had my first dose, which is amazing,

487
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:47,359
Speaker 2: and I'm incredibly fortunate. Then I had really bad side effects,

488
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 2: and that was for my because of my own unique

489
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 2: health situation, and they are nothing compared to what if

490
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 2: I had gotten COVID would be. So you know, if

491
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 2: I got to choose again, I would absolutely go through

492
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 2: it again. But it did. It is an example that

493
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 2: not everything is going to be a win win situation.

494
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 2: There was there There are always potentially some some downsides,

495
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 2: but on balance that's much better. You know, I've got

496
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 2: my second dose coming up, so it's still a process.

497
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 2: And the reason why I feel this is a bit

498
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:17,119
Speaker 2: of analogy and analogy is there actually isn't satisfaction in

499
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 2: having worried about an issue to the point where you

500
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 2: write a thesis to the point where you go to

501
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 2: a five year degree overseas away from a family or

502
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 2: work in this field, to then have all the things

503
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 2: you worried about and all the gaps you fla we're

504
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 2: talking about then happen. Because it's actually you know, I

505
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 2: remember in January when this first emerge, well, December thirty one,

506
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 2: and then you know that there were there about three

507
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 2: weeks in January where it was like that feeling of

508
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:48,400
Speaker 2: incredible impending doom of going you know where this is going,

509
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,239
Speaker 2: And there's certain key decisions that were happening internationally at

510
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 2: that point. That feeling of not being able to stop

511
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 2: you know, this this barreling train. Having spent so much

512
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 2: time talking about how to stop it, how to prepare,

513
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 2: how to respond, was you know, incredibly difficult and didn't

514
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 2: have them. But yeah, there wasn't any particular sort of

515
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 2: satisfaction in anything coming to fruition. It was like, no, no, no,

516
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 2: this is what we've been trying to stop. And so,

517
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 2: you know, similar to the to the vaccine is, you know,

518
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 2: there kind of aren't any silver linings. And I look

519
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 2: back to where the big failures have been how we

520
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,959
Speaker 2: got to where we are in the United States, in Europe,

521
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 2: and it was lack of leadership. It was failures of leadership.

522
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: There was failures of governance. It was countries turning their

523
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 2: back on working together, and it was countries turning inwards.

524
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 2: You know, we've now got this week the European Union

525
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 2: blocking vaccines from going out. You know, these are all

526
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 2: situations where there is sort of that turning inwards to

527
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: protect citizens, and countries are doing it because that's you know,

528
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 2: that's their duty. But it doesn't does that means that

529
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 2: the rest of the world. There aren't vaccines are going

530
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 2: equitably around the world, and that's going to prolong the pandemic.

531
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 2: And so you know, from the very beginning, these are about

532
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 2: values of governments, not taking into account scientific evidence, and

533
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 2: not prioritizing public health in the right way. I think

534
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 2: what is hard is that's really difficult to build back from.

535
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,719
Speaker 2: You know, I think that what this pandemic has revealed

536
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 2: in so many ways are the huge inequalities and gaps

537
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 2: in society that you know, maybe it took a pandemic

538
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: to get high level government attention on. But I do

539
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 2: worry that we are not going to be prioritizing that

540
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 2: coming out. And so, you know, I sit here in

541
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 2: March twenty twenty one, or you know, in the beginning

542
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty one, and I feel that the we're

543
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 2: only we're now just stepping on the first step of

544
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,440
Speaker 2: the flight of stairs. There's still such a huge way

545
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 2: to go. It's less now crisis and it's now rebuilding.

546
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 2: I've done so much sort of technical work that I've

547
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 2: kind of stepped away, and I'd have to get you

548
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 2: to refocus me on what particular reflections you want to divide.

549
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 3: I went into I went back.

550
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 2: Into like a pandemic sponse mode. No, but that's that's

551
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,640
Speaker 2: where my brain keeps going. And that's kind of also,

552
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 2: you know, you spoke a little bit. We're going to

553
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: talk about burnout and things like that. But I think

554
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 2: what's hard is, you know, we're now fifteen months in

555
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 2: and switching off response mode is almost impossible, and learning

556
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 2: to rebalance to normal, you know, where that be like

557
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: starting to play video games again, you know, talking with

558
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 2: people and finding a way to wind back that response

559
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: mode is really tough.

560
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,199
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine. And before we started chatting, you know,

561
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 1: you mentioned you've pretty much been working every day for

562
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: fifteen months and getting by on you know, five.

563
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 3: Or six hours of sleep.

564
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: What has that been like? What work have you been

565
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: actually doing during those times? And something I think that's

566
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 1: really fascinating here is that there is a bit of

567
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: a misconception often about academia and how it's all sitting

568
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 1: at officers working on theoretical situations and never getting any

569
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: real life experience. But it sounds like you've very much

570
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: been hands on in the field the whole time. How

571
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: has what's happened compared to what was in your original

572
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: thesis about our preparedness and all that kind of stuff.

573
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to be upfront, I had not I

574
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,479
Speaker 2: had not ever figured that Australian states would close their

575
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 2: borders to each other. I thought, yeah, the principles of

576
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 2: federalism went out on that one. That was definitely not

577
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 2: something I predicted. So in terms of like what I

578
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 2: the big things early on was, you know, this was

579
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 2: something novel. You know, a lot of my work is

580
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 2: advising on obligations under law and international law about sharing

581
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: of data, rapid notifications of outbreaks, of building surveillance systems.

582
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 2: So you know, I do a lot of like written

583
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: and law stuff, but a lot of it over the

584
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 2: last few years has also been advising on how do

585
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 2: you structure a surveillance system, how do you build up

586
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: public health capacities, and what does your health workforce need

587
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: to look like? How many we even have run simulations

588
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 2: if you know how many how many ventilators do you need?

589
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: What distribution sites are you going to use, how are

590
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 2: you going to prioritize distribution? And these are sorts of

591
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 2: skills that we're all part of the pandemic preparedness work

592
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 2: beforehand that it was like, okay, we're now putting this

593
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 2: into place, and one of the big things is we

594
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 2: don't have or we didn't have a lot of data

595
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 2: on what non pharmaceutical interventions, so things like physical distancing,

596
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 2: things like masks. There really was not much data. All

597
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: we had really was from influenza pandemics. So in the

598
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 2: very first i would say six months up until sort

599
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 2: of summer or mid last year, here was actually very

600
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 2: public health advice directly advising governments, directly advising international organizations,

601
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 2: businesses on how to build up a contact tracing system,

602
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 2: including jurisdictions in Australia, but also in Europe and the

603
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 2: United States, a number of places in the United States.

604
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 2: So a lot of my work was various sort of

605
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 2: classic public health response, outbreak response. In the outbreak in China,

606
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: you know, there were things that happened with the initial

607
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: lockdown in Wuhan that were unprecedented. So going okay, well,

608
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 2: what does this mean. We don't have a huge amount

609
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 2: of data, what are the minimum standards? How do we

610
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: protect human rights? How do we protect public health whilst

611
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 2: also protecting right to food, right to medicines, right to education,

612
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 2: all these other factors and so that's largely a lot

613
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: of advocacy, but also directly advising governments on the sorts

614
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 2: of policies that they should be implementing, and over the

615
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 2: sort of you know, the last fifteen months in total,

616
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 2: I've advised on a range of different policy measures, including

617
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 2: those social distancing and physical distancing, and vaccination or access

618
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 2: to treatments early on now more vaccination, but also you know,

619
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 2: more planning for policies. So I've done a lot of

620
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 2: work on things like you know, immunity passports and the

621
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 2: equitable and legal limits, and then vaccination passports. So yes,

622
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 2: they had in the New York Times like a piece

623
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: about a vaccination about vaccination passports and how there is

624
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: a lot we really need to think about and there's

625
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 2: international law that who and governments have to think about.

626
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 2: And so what has been quite amazing is everyone is

627
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 2: in this pandemic, Everyone is experiencing this pandemic, and so

628
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 2: everyone is bringing the expertise this pandemic, and I think

629
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 2: in many instances there's been a lot of forgetting that

630
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 2: there are people who have worked specifically on pandemic preparedness,

631
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 2: and so a lot of my job is just saying, well,

632
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 2: you're putting my hand up and saying, okay, yeah, these

633
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 2: are really good ideas, but we actually already have laws

634
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 2: on this, and here's working some legal advice, you know,

635
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 2: and or you know, sure, okay, well this is what

636
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: the law says, if that's what you want to do.

637
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 2: This is how we need to actually address it and

638
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 2: how we need to prove it. So in many ways,

639
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 2: a lot of the skills that I've been applying are

640
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 2: actually from advising clients at a law firm day rather

641
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 2: than you know, necessarily legal theory. You know, I've got

642
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 2: a lot of colleagues who you know, are writing on

643
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 2: like from an academic perspective, and I think one of

644
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 2: the great things I'm so happy to have had is those,

645
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 2: you know, those years at a law firm to be

646
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 2: able to think about what are the practical and operational

647
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: issues and not just get sort of stuck in the

648
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 2: theory or the advocacy and finding a way to balance

649
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: balance that some of the sort of more longer term

650
00:31:58,280 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 2: things of you know, in our set on a number

651
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 2: of of international and national bodies that are looking at

652
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: the current response and looking forward, there's going to be

653
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 2: a few quite big international commissions. So I'm currently advising

654
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 2: the Who's independent panel that are doing the review and

655
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 2: to sort of set what the reset should be going

656
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 2: forward on international law. And I sit on a number

657
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 2: of national academies panels looking at, you know, the next pandemic.

658
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: We're already preparing for that. It's like, let's be honest,

659
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,120
Speaker 2: this has been huge, but this isn't the big one.

660
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 2: When we talk about the big one, we talk about

661
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: a flu pandemic typically, and that's always the risk is

662
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: what the actual big one, you know, the catastrophic one is.

663
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 2: But you know, I think one of the pluses is

664
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 2: there are countries and international organizations are paying attention, and

665
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: you know, it's very rewarding to be a part of

666
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: that process.

667
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 3: Lovely neighborhood.

668
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Speaker 1: For all my fellow business owners out there, I've got

669
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670
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671
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672
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673
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674
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675
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676
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677
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678
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679
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680
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682
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683
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684
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: That's xer dot com. It's really interesting that you said

685
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: before that there is actually no satisfaction in something that

686
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: you theorize as a huge global risk actually materializing, which

687
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: makes the whole concept of passion for your job and

688
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: fulfillment in that position a bit muddied. In this scenario,

689
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: you kind of want to be like I told you so,

690
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: but you also don't want that to be the case.

691
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 3: You don't want that global pandemic to come to fruition.

692
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: And I can imagine that job satisfaction and finding you know,

693
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: yay in your work every day is quite hard. You

694
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: mentioned before that there have been really dark times to

695
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: be concentrating on the heavier problematic side of things, Meanwhile,

696
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: we're all starting to look towards the silver linings of

697
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: the force, slowdown and appreciating the smaller things Again. Quarantine,

698
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,240
Speaker 1: of course, really does make you appreciate your physical.

699
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 3: Liberty to move around.

700
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 1: But for you guys, your immediate focus is what is

701
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: the next most challenging situation, what's the next worst case scenario?

702
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,399
Speaker 1: And you know, what should you prepare for and how

703
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,439
Speaker 1: much worse could it be? So I'd love to move

704
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: into the nata, you know, sort of the biggest challenges

705
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: to your joy and come back, you know to that

706
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: topic of burnout that we've been talking about. You've been

707
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: working every single day for fifteen months. How do you

708
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: navigate the compassion fatigue and physical fatigue and have any

709
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: kind of boundaries where you know, when you guys are

710
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: sort of working on the solutions to this problem. It's

711
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: really hard to put in a boundary because you can't say, oh,

712
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: no one needs me today, like the whole world needs you.

713
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 3: So how have you navigated that?

714
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 2: Well? I think I can hear the magpie is warbling

715
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: in the background and it is so lovely. It's one

716
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 2: of my favorite sounds. Yeah, A big thing for me

717
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,680
Speaker 2: has been getting out in nature. So you know, I

718
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 2: spent the first peak in New York, so the big

719
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 2: New York Peak, and that was very, very tough, you know,

720
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 2: being in a seven hundred square foot apartment in whole's kitchen.

721
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 2: And I moved down to DC in June last year

722
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 2: so I could at least be able to get out

723
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 2: into some woods and forest and get that outside time.

724
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 2: I think a big thing for me has been making

725
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 2: sure I'm out in nature and having some time like

726
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 2: walking through the woods and getting that fresh air. But

727
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 2: I'm going to be honest, like burnout is the way

728
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: I've approached this has meant that burnout is an inevitability,

729
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 2: and that is something I'm sort of grappling with now.

730
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 2: Is going, Okay, Am I at a point now where

731
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,399
Speaker 2: I can start to go, I'm going to do half

732
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 2: days for a couple of weeks or you know, not

733
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 2: trying to sort of keep going on. Well, I'll have

734
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: a holiday in like in June, and I'll have the

735
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 2: whole month to June off, and things that keep shifting

736
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 2: and always get pushed back and pushed back and push back.

737
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 2: So you know, I think the first step is accepting

738
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 2: that burnout has hit and the you know, the the

739
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 2: getting that first dose of the vaccine. I think was

740
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 2: that that moment of like actually stopping. You know, in

741
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 2: many ways, it's not necessarily a success story. In many ways,

742
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,720
Speaker 2: it's not a story saying well, I managed to avoid

743
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 2: burnout by doing X, Y Z, and it's like not,

744
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 2: actually I am at that point and I'm still trying

745
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,919
Speaker 2: to push through it, And so where does that sort

746
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: of leave me? In thing thinking about this is, I

747
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 2: think if I hadn't done the level of what I've

748
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 2: been doing over the last year in a bit, I

749
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 2: think I would have felt such guilt, such a sense

750
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 2: of having not given my all for a situation that

751
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: was not demanding it of me that I actively chose

752
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 2: to decide I was going to put everything into it.

753
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 2: I think not having that regret is actually quite a

754
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 2: selve for how I feel. Now. That doesn't mean that

755
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 2: that's like, well, I'm glad I did that. I'm glad

756
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 2: I engaged in that. You're quite self destructive or stressful behavior.

757
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,879
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, well you know I got there. Now,

758
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: am I at this point where I can now you know,

759
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 2: realize And I think there was a point actually sort

760
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 2: of mid to late last year when I was like, Okay,

761
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 2: I can take my foot a little bit off the gas.

762
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 2: There are plenty of other people here who are doing

763
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 2: the work and who can carry on the work. And

764
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 2: so it's at that point where I'm now like, okay,

765
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,240
Speaker 2: well that's what I'm doing. Now is this next step

766
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 2: of okay, right now, isn't the crisis. I can do

767
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 2: what I'm doing without necessarily that sense of the same

768
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 2: level of urgency. It's like, Okay, let's just ease this

769
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 2: back out, you know, building in more time walking in

770
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 2: the woods, you know, building in more time to you know,

771
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 2: finish the day at a reasonable hour and spend time cooking,

772
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: and you spend time talking with friends and with family.

773
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 2: Taking it slowly and whining it back. So it's not

774
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 2: a shock to the system. You know, I'm not going

775
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: to help anyone if I, you know, fall across the

776
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 2: line on the first of April and then can't do

777
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: anything for the rest of the year.

778
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 3: So it's like a marathon, not a sprint.

779
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, it's just like at the end

780
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 2: of a marathon, you don't just stop. You've got to

781
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 2: slow down, you know, You've got.

782
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 3: To you've got to die.

783
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. I've never done a marathon, so I don't know

784
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 2: what I'm saying.

785
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: But I think that's why your perspective is really really interesting,

786
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: because a lot of the people we have on here

787
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: do have a life that is now structured around wellness

788
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: and vitality and from lots of trial and error and

789
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: not denying that many of them have had burned out

790
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 1: from not having boundaries and pushing themselves too far. But

791
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: I think the reality is there are many positions and

792
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: many times and eras of life or chapters of life

793
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: where it's not a matter of balance.

794
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 3: There is no balance, and.

795
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: Realistically there isn't going to be if certain people are

796
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 1: doing the jobs that they are passionate about but also

797
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 1: need to do. So it does sometimes become a question

798
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: of Okay, I'm accepting that this fifteen month period is

799
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: going to be probably one of my unhealthiest, But then

800
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 1: how do you manage the coming out of that, or

801
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: how do you take lessons for like maybe next time

802
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,399
Speaker 1: I will preserve two or five more percent per day

803
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: of my energy to kind of make the distance longer.

804
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right, And I think you know,

805
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 2: at the beginning of the pandemic. I said to a

806
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: lot of people close to me, I said, I'm really sorry.

807
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 2: I'm going to probably the next twelve to eighteen months

808
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 2: not be around. Yeah, and you know think I'm very

809
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 2: very understanding family and friends. But I think though, but

810
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 2: you know, you can sort of put a flag up

811
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 2: and say, look, this is going to be an intense period.

812
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: But it's also a manner of realizing that you still

813
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 2: have to make sure that you're not martyring yourself and

814
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 2: particularly if you're not hurting other people, not disappearing for

815
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,439
Speaker 2: other people, because then you know, why, what is the

816
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 2: point of doing all of this? You know, you don't

817
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 2: want to come out of the end of twelve fifteen

818
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 2: months and go, well, that's great, but I really hurt

819
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 2: the person closest to me because I wasn't there for

820
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 2: the animals and supportish. So I think there's there've got

821
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 2: to be some sort of foundational values if you go

822
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: into that sort of thinking of things of lines, you know,

823
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 2: I'm not going to cross that, and there are minimum

824
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 2: standards that I'm going to make sure I'm there for,

825
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 2: you know, my family or my friends or myself. And

826
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 2: because it's so easy once you're on that treadmill to

827
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 2: just not stop and think that nothing else matters. And

828
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 2: I think if the pandemic has taught any of us

829
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 2: anything is really recentering on what we value and how

830
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 2: we can not harm other people, the choices that we make,

831
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 2: whether that be on how we distribute vaccines, whether we

832
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 2: wear a mask, or whether we're spending fifteen twenty hours

833
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 2: a day working on something that we think is really important.

834
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, we are interconnected.

835
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 2: And that's what the pandemic has revealed. And I think

836
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 2: that has to be a lesson that for me myself,

837
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:28,400
Speaker 2: bring that into daily practice and realizing that that's a

838
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 2: part that has to be reflected in the way I

839
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 2: live my own life, not just in the way, you know,

840
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 2: I advocate for others or pushing for others to wear

841
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 2: a mask. I've got to be wearing a mask in

842
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 2: my own home metaphorically.

843
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: I also think it something that i've I think I

844
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: was starting to think about before this, but it's really

845
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: hammud at home, is that we spend so much time

846
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,800
Speaker 1: at the macro level always thinking about the big picture

847
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 1: in a good way, like thinking about the impact we

848
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 1: need to have and our legacy and our career and

849
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 1: what's important and the global impact. And it's wonderful to

850
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: have that focus, but I think we forget the micro

851
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: in that process of like, day to day, am I

852
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:10,919
Speaker 1: having a good life? Day to day?

853
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 3: Am I building relationships?

854
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: And you have to have a balance between both of

855
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: those things, and it can be so easy to get

856
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: caught in the macro. And I think, you know, I

857
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: have a friends who are doctors who sometimes get to

858
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: the end of the year and are like, I save

859
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: so many other people's lives, but my family hate me,

860
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: and it's sort of like, well so, but if my

861
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: core value is being a good person, I've been a

862
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: good person to strangers because the macro value was my job,

863
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,280
Speaker 1: whereas the micro value should be family. You know, it's

864
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: such a delicate, challenging balance, but I think it's good

865
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: to even be thinking that way and dissecting the way

866
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: that we analyze sort of what our values are. Something

867
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 1: I'd love to know is is there anything over the

868
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: last fifteen months that stand out to you as the

869
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: most confronting and toughest things that you saw come out

870
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: of the pandemic, particularly while you were in New York

871
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 1: where it was very, very intense and very concentrated, and

872
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 1: then what are some of the best things that you

873
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: saw come out of it?

874
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 2: There are a couple of moments that really come to mind.

875
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 2: There was one day in New York when you know,

876
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 2: I you know, our apartment was on Tenth Avenue if

877
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 2: you've been to Manhattan and Big Avenue and Mount Sinai Hospital,

878
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 2: Upper West Side Hospital is up and we're in Hell's Kitchen.

879
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 2: And there was a day where every minute there was

880
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:30,399
Speaker 2: an ambulance going up and just the scale of what

881
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 2: was going on and to see it just right in

882
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 2: front of you. And then when I moved to DC,

883
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,800
Speaker 2: and this is who we've now well surpassed half a

884
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,479
Speaker 2: million Americans who have died. But there was one day

885
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 2: and I'm relative close to the National Cathedral and on

886
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 2: the day that mark four hundred thousand Americans died, the

887
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: cathedral bells just rang just for every life lost. And

888
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 2: I think there are moments when the scale of tragedy

889
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 2: can get lost, particularly you know, it ties in a

890
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 2: little bit to the burnout question, is is adrenaline is

891
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,879
Speaker 2: so addictive? It is so it's such a good place

892
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 2: to be in that adrenaline and you're working, working, working,

893
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 2: and you can forget, and I think, you know, it's hard.

894
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 2: A lot of my work is about the inequities and

895
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,840
Speaker 2: the injustice as we've seen, and preventing those loss of lives,

896
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: but to actually stop. And you know, in the US,

897
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:30,240
Speaker 2: those deaths are disproportionately minorities. They're African Americans, their Latin

898
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 2: X populations, their frontline healthcare workers, they're central workers. You know,

899
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 2: it is a deeply inequitable scale of death. And so

900
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: I think those moments can't be forgotten. And I think

901
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 2: sometimes hard when I've spoken with people back home in

902
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 2: Australia or in other countries, of trying to not convey

903
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 2: how heavy and difficult it is, whilst also not feeling

904
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 2: that disconnect of what it is to be back in

905
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 2: some form of daily life right in you know, back home.

906
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 2: Then if we think about what the what the have

907
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 2: been the good moments, the connections between people that at

908
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,759
Speaker 2: best previously were acquaintances, right we were you know, we're

909
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 2: all worked in this field or in ancillary fields. But

910
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 2: how critical friends and not like I mean obviously my

911
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 2: very close friends who are learned, who know me and

912
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,360
Speaker 2: who you know, we talk you know, regularly or about

913
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 2: you know, the really personal things, the things that matter

914
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,799
Speaker 2: and my family go go without you know mentioned, they're

915
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 2: absolutely there. But the networks of feeling a part of

916
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 2: a community together and going through these ups and downs together.

917
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 2: So I've got friends who are journalists or other global

918
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 2: health specialists, are the epidemiologists and responders, and those networks

919
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 2: have been like the safety net, right. That has just

920
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 2: been so wonderful to have these connections that, you know,

921
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:58,840
Speaker 2: I think in fifty years time, if we, you know,

922
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 2: see each other across like across a hotel lobby, it'll

923
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 2: just be it'll just be, you know, one of those

924
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 2: nods we're like, ah, yeah, we went through that together,

925
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 2: and it will always be that connection. And I think

926
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 2: seeing the commitment and passion of people who are responding

927
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 2: to the pandemic in all the different ways has just

928
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:19,399
Speaker 2: been such a wonderful, wonderful light And I feel very

929
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 2: fortunate to work at a place with colleagues and friends

930
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 2: who are all committed to that and have been a

931
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,839
Speaker 2: part of that. So that's been wonderful. And I think

932
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 2: as an Australian in America, the acceptance of me being

933
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 2: here as a foreigner, you post post the new administration

934
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,800
Speaker 2: has been you know, it's a place that is incredibly friendly,

935
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,800
Speaker 2: incredibly welcoming, and I think incredibly resilient. There are a

936
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 2: lot of problems, there are a lot of challenges, but

937
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 2: it is you know, it is a place of progress,

938
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 2: and you know, I do very much believe that this

939
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 2: is this will be the chance for things too in

940
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 2: many parts of society, perhaps be addressed, because if any

941
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 2: country can do it, it's America.

942
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 1: The displays of humanity and any tragedy are always the

943
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 1: silver lining of like, you don't ever wish it to

944
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 1: happen that way, and you don't wish that to be

945
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,240
Speaker 1: the reason why people do rally together and the best

946
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: of humanity comes out. But there are so many just lovely,

947
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: heartwarming stories that otherwise you don't necessarily see kind of

948
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 1: strangers rallying together that I think have been really beautiful.

949
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 1: And another thing that I have found very interesting since

950
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: the very first question, because we had two takes at

951
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 1: that question and another big Nadia, which is a huge

952
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 1: topic on this podcast, is self doubt and imposter syndrome

953
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: and the fact that not once have you taken any

954
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: kind of lens of the enormity and impressiveness of what

955
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 1: you do and what you've always done, and how articulate

956
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 1: and eloquent and intelligent and switched on and empathetic and

957
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: just you know, I mean, can you tell I love

958
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: Alex a lot. But I think, particularly being having all

959
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 1: these titles and being so focused on what you're doing,

960
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: does it ever wash over you how cool.

961
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 3: It is what you do?

962
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 1: And how do you grapple with that self doubt when

963
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 1: you are sometimes sitting at boardroom tables or big tables

964
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 1: in huge organizations where you are young, you are a woman,

965
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 1: you know, does that ever creep in and impact you?

966
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 3: And how do you deal with it?

967
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 2: That's really some really lovely things, Sarah, Thank you. I

968
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 2: think when I'm sitting at some of these tables or

969
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 2: advising on certain things in certain groups, it does sometimes

970
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 2: hit me like, oh wow, it puts a weight on

971
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 2: getting things absolutely spot on and absolutely accurate. I'm incredibly

972
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 2: privileged in the career that I have had the opportunities

973
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 2: I've been able to take, and I think that is

974
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 2: always in the back of my mind, is you know,

975
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 2: yeah I'm a foreigner here, and yeah I'm young, and yes,

976
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 2: I'm a woman, but there are so many other intersectional

977
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 2: lack of privileges that means that I'm taking someone else's

978
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 2: seat at a table. And so I think for me,

979
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 2: part of the last particular the last six months has

980
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 2: been how can I shift my workload and my opportunities,

981
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,240
Speaker 2: so not so much workload, actually my opportunities to elevate

982
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 2: other voices. You know, this actually ties in libit to

983
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 2: that last question is when I realized, you know, I'm

984
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 2: a professor and I'm on these preciitions. Is that carries

985
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:37,319
Speaker 2: with a responsibility and I've felt a huge weight and

986
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 2: also privilege with the students that I teach, and it

987
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 2: has been a front of mine priority for me in

988
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 2: diverse hiring practices and elevating those voices. And so I

989
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 2: feel that there's kind of a nice endpoint to this

990
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 2: sort of discussion that we're having in that I'm at

991
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 2: this point where I've both worked myself, I've done so much,

992
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 2: but I have, you know, a positions of power that

993
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 2: I need to recognize where now is a moment for

994
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 2: me to reflect and think, how do I actually give

995
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:14,919
Speaker 2: those opportunities to other people, particularly those who are systemically

996
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 2: closed out of those systems. And I'm incredibly fortunate to

997
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 2: have people I work with and students that I work

998
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:27,439
Speaker 2: with that are exceptional and will do a much better

999
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 2: job than I if I can step aside and give

1000
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 2: them those seats at the table.

1001
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 1: That is the ultimate imposter syndrome answer to point out

1002
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 1: who else, how other people are exceptional and will do

1003
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 1: a better job in you, to put you on the

1004
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 1: spot of all the incredible things you have worked on.

1005
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: I mean, this isn't the first pandemic you've worked on.

1006
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 1: Your work on a bowler is very significant as well,

1007
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 1: and I'm sure there are many other things that don't make.

1008
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 3: The Wikipedia page.

1009
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 1: You have a Wikipedia page, by the way, So fancy

1010
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: what is the thing that you are most proud of

1011
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: that you have worked on before we move on to

1012
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 1: the section that is not about your work?

1013
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 2: Easiest answer this year, because I you know, I can't,

1014
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 2: I can't just do one thing. I decided to start

1015
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 2: a new class, a new course it hasn't been taught

1016
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 2: anywhere in the world called planetary health law that tries

1017
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 2: to think about, you know, the impacts of climate change

1018
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 2: on land use, on emerging infectious diseases, and how law

1019
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:24,879
Speaker 2: does a very bad job of trying to deal with this.

1020
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 2: And so I've started this new class and I have

1021
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 2: seventeen students who are every time we meet, every time

1022
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 2: I do elected, they just you know, impress me so much,

1023
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:37,359
Speaker 2: and I'm just so proud of them. They just did

1024
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 2: them in term and were I was just shocked with

1025
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 2: how well they did. And it's just that easily for me.

1026
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 2: Out of everything, that's that is what I'm most proud of.

1027
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.

1028
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 1: Well, the final section is your playta, which we've already

1029
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:56,919
Speaker 1: touched on and which I imagine you haven't had much

1030
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 1: time for in the last fifteen months and at various

1031
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 1: stages of your life. But I think it is one

1032
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 1: of the most important things to get.

1033
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 3: Balanced and to be good at.

1034
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,919
Speaker 1: If the ultimate goal is to be good at your job,

1035
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: it's even more important to get distance and to get

1036
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:14,399
Speaker 1: perspective and to just get in touch again with who

1037
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 1: you are. When you're not an a dog professor or

1038
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 1: a global health expert, you know, there has to be

1039
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 1: a you who is alex with friends or just alone time.

1040
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 1: I'm not sure you ever have alone time, but when

1041
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 1: you do other than gaming, are there things that you

1042
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 1: do that are purely for joy, that just make you

1043
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: so happy and where you're just silly and just enjoy

1044
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:37,560
Speaker 1: you know what it is to be alive.

1045
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I have found great joy in birds

1046
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 2: and squirrel and my office. I'm not sure if you

1047
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 2: can see it from here, but I've got all these trees,

1048
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:52,919
Speaker 2: like a little little forest flop next to me, and

1049
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 2: I spend a good twenty minutes of every day just

1050
00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,799
Speaker 2: watching birds and squirrels, and I just utterly love it.

1051
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 2: The other day, I thought I saw for the first

1052
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 2: time a skunk, and I was so excited because it

1053
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 2: was huge. I had this big white stripe and I'd

1054
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 2: never seen one before. And it turned out to be

1055
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 2: a very big cat. So that was disappointing. But I

1056
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 2: like opossums and raccoons that pop up. So for me,

1057
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 2: remembering that there is this world that's still turning, still happening,

1058
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 2: there's this nature that's still there, is really grounding. And

1059
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 2: you know, the squirrel is just embody how I feel

1060
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 2: on the inside all the time, Like just so you

1061
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 2: know that, yeah, exactly exactly. So that's been that's been

1062
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 2: a great joy. You know. I love I love reading

1063
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 2: haven't had a huge amount of time for it, but

1064
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 2: you know, any of those sorts of those quiet moments.

1065
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:47,919
Speaker 2: I was thinking today, I want to sort of take

1066
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 2: some time to get back to some calligraphy, back to

1067
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 2: some Chinese because you know, I was for once, I've been,

1068
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 2: so i'm now, but you know, taking those little moments

1069
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,440
Speaker 2: just to to reconnect with the things that that you

1070
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 2: know madded to you at some point, and that's definitely

1071
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:05,399
Speaker 2: one of them.

1072
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 3: And gaming obviously, and gaming exactly.

1073
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:10,800
Speaker 1: I love that there's one thing that's not intellectual, like

1074
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:12,799
Speaker 1: I feel like bird watching is still quite an art

1075
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 1: in calligraphy in Chinese is obviously highly academic, and reading

1076
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 1: is also literary. But then there's one thing that's just like, yeah,

1077
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: the Sims.

1078
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 2: Again, making structurally unsound houses and living out my interior

1079
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 2: decorating dreams through the Sims.

1080
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I see your next chapter coming on, doctor Alexandra

1081
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 1: Fillan interior design.

1082
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 2: Look, I mean if I were to escape to the

1083
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 2: country that would that would give me so much satisfaction

1084
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 2: just for a bit of time with some wallpaper.

1085
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 3: And do you have any bucket listing?

1086
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 1: Usually the last question is three interesting things about you

1087
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: that don't normally come up in conversation, but I would

1088
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 1: actually love to know are there any bucket list careers

1089
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 1: that you would do if you were not in global

1090
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 1: health at all? Like do you feel like you'll hit

1091
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 1: a point where not so much the compassion fatigue, but

1092
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 1: just the intensity fatigue will hit you and you'll think, Okay,

1093
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,880
Speaker 1: that was one chapter. Now I will apply myself in

1094
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: this other way. Like I have this random thing that

1095
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 1: one day I'm going to be a crime fiction author,

1096
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 1: Like that's one of the things I would love to do.

1097
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 1: It's got nothing to do with anything, definitely not yea

1098
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 1: very seriular orientated, but.

1099
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 3: It's just a random thing. I'm like, one day I'll

1100
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:28,760
Speaker 3: do that.

1101
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 2: You know. I the fact that the only lens witch

1102
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 2: through which I can actually approach this question you're thinking

1103
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 2: if I had to go into witness protection, that's a

1104
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 2: level of disconnect I feel I need.

1105
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 3: That's the only way that you would actually let yourself

1106
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 3: not work exactly.

1107
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 2: I love planning travel for other people. I really love

1108
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 2: that because I at the heart, I'm a research like

1109
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 2: that's I'm very like that's kind of the attention to

1110
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 2: details is so of the research, and so if someone

1111
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:01,959
Speaker 2: says to me, this is the experience that I want,

1112
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 2: then I would plan it. Now, obviously it's not the

1113
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:10,840
Speaker 2: best career choice to go into a pandemic, but that

1114
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:15,399
Speaker 2: I think that would be an alternate career. Yeah, I'm

1115
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 2: gonna I'm gonna stick with that, like a travel plan

1116
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 2: for other people, and I would live vicariously through them

1117
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:22,520
Speaker 2: because I may not be able to get on a

1118
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 2: plane again after that after all the travel.

1119
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 3: That's a great one. The very last question, my love,

1120
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:32,280
Speaker 3: what's your favorite quote?

1121
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 2: Okay, so my favorite quote is actually I'm going to

1122
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 2: I'm gonna destroy when I say it, so let me.

1123
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:46,759
Speaker 2: It's Audrey Lord. The Master's tools will never dismantle the

1124
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 2: Master's house. You know, I spend my life working in law,

1125
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 2: and as we've seen in the last few weeks in Australia,

1126
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 2: law is a system that is set up to benefit

1127
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 2: the people who built it. And if we continue to

1128
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 2: try and operate within that realm and trying to use

1129
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 2: that system, whether we're talking about getting it, you know,

1130
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 2: for First Nations voices for women's rights, these are systems

1131
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:15,000
Speaker 2: that are deliberately set up not to fellow those those voices.

1132
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 2: So you know, I think really thinking about is international

1133
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 2: the right thing to be protecting us? How do our

1134
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 2: legal systems need to be rethought and the principles in

1135
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 2: which we think are sacred, how do we critique them?

1136
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 2: And so that order lag quote lets me always reflect

1137
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 2: on you know, what assumptions are we making about how

1138
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:36,200
Speaker 2: we're our starting point? And you know, obviously that's in

1139
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 2: a much bigger context. But I think, yeah, that's one

1140
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 2: that always comes back to me.

1141
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 1: I think you've absolutely just confirmed that you operate a

1142
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 1: on another level to the rest of us like that.

1143
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: It's just your brain must go at a million miles

1144
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: an hour.

1145
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 3: I love it so much.

1146
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 1: But b that we should all vote for you for

1147
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 1: president of anywhere of the world. Basically doctor Peelin for president.

1148
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 1: What an incredible human being you are. Thank you so

1149
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 1: so much for joining.

1150
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Sarah, It's been really delightful. I

1151
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 2: really appreciate it.

1152
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 1: Oh, this was such a joy. I love being at

1153
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 1: that age now where you can see the many offshoots

1154
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:15,080
Speaker 1: and parthias we've all followed from those common beginnings, but

1155
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 1: off in all different directions, and see the CS THEA

1156
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 1: philosophy living itself out in the flesh. Isn't Alex just

1157
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: the most intelligent, eloquent, and endearingly lovely human as always,

1158
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 1: Please share your takeaways all learnings from this episode on Socials,

1159
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: tagging Alex at ALPG and myself so we can keep

1160
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 1: spreading the YA as far and wide as possible. And

1161
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 1: if you haven't hit that subscribe button or left a review,

1162
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 1: I don't blame you. I know we always forget to

1163
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 1: do it, but please take a quick moment to do so.

1164
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:49,280
Speaker 1: It really does mean so much to keep the show

1165
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 1: growing as an independent production and to keep our yighborhood thriving.

1166
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 1: I hope you're having an amazing week and a seizing

1167
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: your YA.