Speaker 1: You're listening to I'm MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Have you decided what you want for your birthday?
Speaker 1: Oh? I've told Brent what I want and I hope
Speaker 1: he was paying attention. Yeah, yeah, because I want my
Speaker 1: little Bunning's glass greenhouse thing. Jesus crash this beautiful necklace.
Speaker 3: Okay, Okay, god no, I think it's better to have
Speaker 3: those lists because my mom.
Speaker 1: I used to be like nearly my whole life until
Speaker 1: the last few years. I'm like a surprise me person
Speaker 1: because I love surprises, like I genuinely do. But it's
Speaker 1: just twenty years of missus twenty years.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just like it's time to just ask.
Speaker 1: It's time exactly. He's a lovely man that this is
Speaker 1: not his strength. Yes, yeah, time to be specific, you know,
Speaker 1: save us all a little bit of aggs, send some cash. Hello,
Speaker 1: and welcome to MoMA Mia out Loud. It's what women
Speaker 1: are actually talking about on Friday, the twelfth of December.
Speaker 2: I'm Wayne right, I'm m vern Em and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 1: And here's what made our agenda for today. It's been
Speaker 1: a dilemma for the ages. Is a straight man cheating
Speaker 1: if he likes other women's posts on Instagram. Yes, Thankfully,
Speaker 1: for those of us who are a little bit more
Speaker 1: conflicted than them, a court has cleared this up.
Speaker 5: It is also social season, and we are well overdue
Speaker 5: for an Ediica guide where we tell you exactly how
Speaker 5: to behave because we're well equipped.
Speaker 3: And if you're struggling to make a decision at the moment,
Speaker 3: ask yourself, is it a hat, a haircut, or a tattoo.
Speaker 3: We stumbled across a decision framework that promises to change
Speaker 3: your life.
Speaker 1: But first, as I mentioned, there has often been debate
Speaker 1: about whether or not it's okay to like other people's
Speaker 1: posts on social media. So if you're a straight man
Speaker 1: in a relationship with a woman, is it okay for
Speaker 1: you to like other women's posts? Now? I have always
Speaker 1: said yes, I don't own your life likes, but you
Speaker 1: m say absolutely not. Give me some context here about it.
Speaker 5: Firstly, if it's going to be a like that's going
Speaker 5: to embarrass me as your girlfriend, you can't be liking
Speaker 5: that photo.
Speaker 1: What kind of light would embarrass you?
Speaker 5: A photo of a model who doesn't even know you exist,
Speaker 5: and you're constantly liking every single photo she posts, She's
Speaker 5: going to see.
Speaker 1: It so like Siddy Sweeney, let's say official account. Presumably
Speaker 1: she posts something she gets a million likes when she posts.
Speaker 1: If your significant other is one of the people who
Speaker 1: likes that, you don't like that, yeah.
Speaker 2: I think that's a bit embarrassing.
Speaker 1: It's embarrassing.
Speaker 5: I actually have a story here, and I can't believe
Speaker 5: I witnessed this firsthand. I was dating a guy and
Speaker 5: he was looking at a photo from Selena Gomez and
Speaker 5: it was a carousel, and it was like, the first
Speaker 5: one was like her looking really really sexy, and he
Speaker 5: liked it, and the second one was her with Benny Blanco,
Speaker 5: and then he like.
Speaker 1: A witness that I was dating here. I think this
Speaker 1: lovely deluded gentleman thought that Selena might be like, I'm
Speaker 1: looking through the lists of all the names. She's the
Speaker 1: most followed person. I'm looking through the lists of all
Speaker 1: the names to decide who I might go on a
Speaker 1: random date with.
Speaker 3: You, and like, she doesn't need your like, whereas if
Speaker 3: your partner is liking a photo of Dame Judy dench
Speaker 3: yeplay on.
Speaker 1: Okay, this is confusing. So it's lucky that some courts
Speaker 1: around the world have ruled on this. You might have
Speaker 1: seen some headlines around the place that in the country Turkia,
Speaker 1: which is in like southeast Europe, a divorce court has
Speaker 1: just ruled that a husband's interacting with other women on
Speaker 1: social media platforms did constitute cheating, and it's being reported
Speaker 1: around the world this particular case as a kind of
Speaker 1: world first proof that Instagram liking is cheating. Now, obviously
Speaker 1: there's a lot more going on here, there's a lot
Speaker 1: more going on in this relationship. There's a lot more
Speaker 1: going on in this this particular divorce case, but it
Speaker 1: is the first time that the court held up an
Speaker 1: action that said social media, including likes on photos of
Speaker 1: the opposite sex, can be interpreted as conduct undermining trust
Speaker 1: and dignity in a marriage. Such online behavior, the court said,
Speaker 1: may justify divorce when it causes emotional harm and erodes
Speaker 1: the foundation of the relationship. And in that particular case,
Speaker 1: when the woman was saying, part of why I'm divorcing
Speaker 1: this dude, is he continually doing that liking connecting with
Speaker 1: women on Instagram. I don't like it was one of
Speaker 1: the reasons why the court ruled in her favor. So
Speaker 1: people are seeing this. It's not exactly as simplistic as this,
Speaker 1: of course, but they're saying this is the first time
Speaker 1: that liking an Instagram post has contributed to a cheating
Speaker 1: not prosecution. What's the word well inclaim.
Speaker 3: In Australia we have no fault divorce. Yeah, so if
Speaker 3: you and your partner get divorced, no one needs to
Speaker 3: prove that it was someone else is fault, right, whereas
Speaker 3: in other places in the world you do prove fault.
Speaker 3: And this is a way of going he was at
Speaker 3: fault because he was liking.
Speaker 1: And that thought you might be getting better, more favorable
Speaker 1: divorce settlement exactly.
Speaker 3: And what I want in court is I need that
Speaker 3: picture displayed.
Speaker 2: I need it displayed.
Speaker 3: I need us to prosecute the nuance of that photo.
Speaker 3: Is it a graduation photo of an ex where we're
Speaker 3: just encouraging her future endeavors clap clap, look at you go?
Speaker 1: Or is that allowed by the way I think we're
Speaker 1: allowed to do that.
Speaker 2: I think so.
Speaker 3: Whereas if it is a your ex is taken up
Speaker 3: bikini modeling and there's eleven photos in a carousel and
Speaker 3: he's like con zooming and he's going on the Instagram
Speaker 3: stories fire emojing exactly, and maybe a DM going it
Speaker 3: looks like you're well, that crossing a line and I
Speaker 3: need a judge to say that, like I need a
Speaker 3: judge to say it, and then a ward.
Speaker 5: And I think it's also the where in the claim
Speaker 5: it says that he was constantly doing that, so I
Speaker 5: can imagine there would have been a conversation of her going,
Speaker 5: I don't like when you do this, and he does it,
Speaker 5: And you can tell exactly how much they do it
Speaker 5: by their Instagram explore page. If you go onto someone's
Speaker 5: Instagram explore page, and I assume with this person here,
Speaker 5: his Instagram explore page is just all these.
Speaker 1: Women in bikinis. They are like, you have a tendency.
Speaker 3: To like a lot, whereas mine is all left one drivers,
Speaker 3: which is me in my personal business.
Speaker 1: But this is why this is murky, right Jesse, Like
Speaker 1: this particular divorce, ACiE, we don't know the particulars here,
Speaker 1: but like, in general, is it illegal for your partner
Speaker 1: to like looking at pictures of women and bikinis on Instagram?
Speaker 2: You heard the court It is a little bit legal.
Speaker 3: It is, And in fact, I would like I would
Speaker 3: like to have their eyes to add in another piece
Speaker 3: of legislation that I think is missing, okay, which is
Speaker 3: my mum in law does still like and I've spoken
Speaker 3: about this before, photos of Luca's X and I just
Speaker 3: it's time.
Speaker 1: To stop it.
Speaker 3: She's trolling you, She's trolling me, And it's like.
Speaker 1: Is Luca allowed to like those photos? Look?
Speaker 3: When I brought it up on this podcast a year ago,
Speaker 3: it does appear he has stopped. Mother in law was
Speaker 3: a different level though, because I feel as though she's
Speaker 3: too encouraging.
Speaker 1: Do you think she's also in the DMS going how
Speaker 1: are you doing?
Speaker 2: We miss you? We miss you in this family?
Speaker 3: And I think that when there's a court, when Luca
Speaker 3: and I go to court over something, I'm going to
Speaker 3: be bringing that up. This lady has been too encouraging
Speaker 3: to the exes, and I don't appreciate it.
Speaker 2: It feels pointed.
Speaker 5: So social season is amongst us, which means that it's
Speaker 5: time where people on the internet tell other people on
Speaker 5: the internet how to behave Yes.
Speaker 1: Us included Yes.
Speaker 5: A subject writer named Hannah Park published a piece titled
Speaker 5: modern day social Etiquette you should live.
Speaker 1: And die by.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 5: This is not like a fancy, fancy etiquette guide where
Speaker 5: you're making like a five course meal. This is for
Speaker 5: people who just happen to attend things during the social season.
Speaker 2: And get easily confused.
Speaker 5: And we've done a few of these for our subscriber
Speaker 5: out Louders.
Speaker 3: In fact, we have one subscriber episode coming up specifically
Speaker 3: about Christmas, New Year and the holiday season. But then
Speaker 3: this one I just found during like a very busy
Speaker 3: social period. I just need some guidance. And there are
Speaker 3: a few things on there that I'm doing that I
Speaker 3: didn't realize.
Speaker 5: We're rude, Okay, can I read out some Yes, always
Speaker 5: pour someone else's water or wine before your own.
Speaker 1: This is a lesson that Jesse has learned.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd be explicitly told by someone I used to
Speaker 3: work with, and I think of her every time I
Speaker 3: do it.
Speaker 1: Now. I didn't know we had to do that. Of
Speaker 1: course you have to do that, oh my god, because
Speaker 1: sometime sometimes.
Speaker 5: They're quite heavy, so you know when you pick it up,
Speaker 5: and I can't be doing this.
Speaker 1: Before God, or at least you offer.
Speaker 2: You have to offer an intolerance to water, and you
Speaker 2: don't want.
Speaker 1: To, you don't want to present them. It tastes like spin.
Speaker 2: No, that's why you should always just give you.
Speaker 1: So if you go like this and they go you up,
Speaker 1: that's fine. Don't lick your fingers. Oh, I always like
Speaker 1: tricky because the thing like finger food is tricky. You know,
Speaker 1: like if you're at a fancy event and somebody is
Speaker 1: bringing around finger food, you know how they always offer
Speaker 1: you a CANape and a napkin.
Speaker 2: Do you call it a CANape?
Speaker 1: I call it a cap It's called a can I
Speaker 1: think I'm just being stupid.
Speaker 4: Cannot pey and a napkin.
Speaker 1: But you've got a glass in hand, so you never
Speaker 1: take the napkin because then you're in a pickle, a pickle.
Speaker 1: Then you don't know what what to do, so you eat,
Speaker 1: and then you've got to lick your fingers or wipe
Speaker 1: a mod dress?
Speaker 2: You do you got a fancy dress.
Speaker 1: You don't want to do that. Some people who lick
Speaker 1: their fingers make it quite audible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know what you may.
Speaker 3: I also think over the way kend I was indulging
Speaker 3: in a cheesel, which I hadn't had. No, while you
Speaker 3: can't eat a cheesel without looking, licking.
Speaker 1: Fingers is the best bit.
Speaker 3: It's the best bit because you've got the salt on it. Like,
Speaker 3: what am I meant to do with my cheesel?
Speaker 1: You know what you do? You roll it between.
Speaker 5: And I like, sprinkle it into your mouth.
Speaker 4: I'm really glad that.
Speaker 1: We've nailed the cheesel etiquette in this holiday guide. Early on.
Speaker 1: That is the weirdest shit I've ever heard. It's so good.
Speaker 4: It's extra flavor. It's like an extra back.
Speaker 5: Okay, if you know the name of a bird or
Speaker 5: plant while walking outside with friend, share it with the group.
Speaker 1: Such nonsense.
Speaker 4: I just disagree, like, I rather not. I rather walk
Speaker 4: to silence.
Speaker 1: You know that. I will totally do that, Yeah, because
Speaker 1: you know how I am with my nature and even
Speaker 1: I know that's annoying when people come to stay with
Speaker 1: us where we live down the coast and walk around,
Speaker 1: I go, look at that, that's a great heron.
Speaker 4: Look at that.
Speaker 2: I don't care.
Speaker 1: That's a plover. Look at that it's a Pelican. Nobody
Speaker 1: wants They all look like the same bird. Nobody wants that.
Speaker 1: So I just have to say it inside my head, like, yes, Holly,
Speaker 1: you do know things, Okay.
Speaker 5: When someone tells a story, ask a follow up question
Speaker 5: before telling your own.
Speaker 2: I loved this.
Speaker 3: I think it's a really simple way to make sure
Speaker 3: that you don't get into that dynamic of both of
Speaker 3: you just monologuing or whatever. And sometimes I go, you know,
Speaker 3: you'll find yourself midway through a conversation and go I've
Speaker 3: been talking too much, and you try and diffuse it.
Speaker 2: I like that as just like, yeah, always ask something
Speaker 2: else or I just wait for your.
Speaker 5: T If you're telling a story and you can tell
Speaker 5: they just want to say something, yeah what they think
Speaker 5: is better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is very nice, polite.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Light.
Speaker 5: If you're telling a story and then someone else starts
Speaker 5: telling their story, don't look at your phone.
Speaker 1: Well, if you're one up in my story, I'm looking
Speaker 1: at my phone.
Speaker 2: Who I see this all the time. I see this
Speaker 2: all the time.
Speaker 3: In a group setting, someone will speak and then when
Speaker 3: they're done speaking and someone else starts speaking.
Speaker 2: And often it'll be one person.
Speaker 3: It could be the quieter person at the table, could
Speaker 3: be someone who said less, I see someone touch the
Speaker 3: and I think that is the root of single pin.
Speaker 1: Okay, where should the phone be?
Speaker 3: Never within eyesight, not on the table or anything, unless
Speaker 3: you are my obstecution.
Speaker 1: Or maybe a parent with the baby at home with
Speaker 1: a babysitter. Yeah, but then these days we've often got watches.
Speaker 3: Vibrate for that, aren't we Aren't we paying the babysitter
Speaker 3: to sort it.
Speaker 2: I just feel like that's none of your business.
Speaker 1: Or maybe a single girl, if you have a better lineup, yeah, true, true, yeah,
Speaker 1: but if you can check that.
Speaker 3: That's why phone belongs in pocket. When you go do
Speaker 3: a way, check your phone. But I don't think we
Speaker 3: are doing it within because when one person pulls their
Speaker 3: phone out, everything's ruined. Everyone's checking their phone and we've
Speaker 3: just broken the like social.
Speaker 5: Code its bond offer to help old people walk up
Speaker 5: the stairs or across the streets.
Speaker 1: Well, of course, duh. But just be careful what your
Speaker 1: boundary of old people.
Speaker 3: Is, because Holly hates it when I offer. When I
Speaker 3: say to her, do you need help in the lift?
Speaker 1: You can really poised at the social event if you
Speaker 1: get that wrong.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 5: Okay, I understand the difference between nice questions versus nosy questions.
Speaker 1: This is very tricky. I don't think I know what
Speaker 1: this is.
Speaker 3: So apparently it's nosy and rude to ask what someone
Speaker 3: does for living, or like how's work going?
Speaker 2: Or something to do?
Speaker 1: With work.
Speaker 3: The general consensus, and what this article said was that
Speaker 3: that's a rude question and you have to get more creative.
Speaker 1: That's that's the first thing I asked me too. So
Speaker 1: this is interesting because I'm finding that I've got less
Speaker 1: and less tolerance for small talk as I get older.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's the hormones. I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's the age or what it is. But I used
Speaker 1: to be quite a fan of small talk. I remember
Speaker 1: years ago coaching you Jesse on office small talk, because
Speaker 1: I was like, it's important, it's the social code. You
Speaker 1: just how is your weekend fine? How was your weekend fine?
Speaker 1: But my tolerance for it is dropping. And do you
Speaker 1: remember there was an article in The Guardian a while
Speaker 1: ago from a woman who even up small talk. Yes,
Speaker 1: And this was interesting because she had some suggestions, because
Speaker 1: often the suggestions for this are too intense, things like
Speaker 1: what's bringing you joy today? Like I don't want a
Speaker 1: stranger to ask me that, But she said that was.
Speaker 2: Exactly I find that question.
Speaker 1: This article was written by Claire Easton, was in the Guardian.
Speaker 1: She's a writer and she had to go to like
Speaker 1: a sort of event where she didn't know very many
Speaker 1: people that normally would be small talk, but she'd sworn
Speaker 1: off it. The first person I spoke to at the
Speaker 1: show as a freelance photographer, what's your star side? I asked, Oh,
Speaker 1: I feel like I have to know about star signs
Speaker 1: I believe, looked pleasantly surprised, and then answered Aquarius and
Speaker 1: we spoke comfortably for ten minutes. The next person I encountered,
Speaker 1: I asked, what was your art teacher at school? Like?
Speaker 1: By the end of the evening I had several fun
Speaker 1: and enjoyable conversations. My rules were simple without being rude.
Speaker 1: I would quickly deflect all questions about well being, where
Speaker 1: they're transport, or children's academic achievements, and offer instead something
Speaker 1: I found genuinely interesting. When Barista asks, how are you
Speaker 1: enjoying the sun? I pivoted to I like spring, but
Speaker 1: autumn is my favorite season. What's yours? What do we
Speaker 1: think about this? What do we think about more interesting questions?
Speaker 3: I agree that we can get to more interesting places.
Speaker 2: I think you can sound like you're forcing it a bit.
Speaker 1: You can't row a dog in an interesting question.
Speaker 3: The one that I like is because I will see
Speaker 3: a lot of people over this period where, to be
Speaker 3: completely honest, I've forgotten what they do for work. I'm
Speaker 3: not sure if they're working at the moment. Yep, I
Speaker 3: don't know if they're retired. I don't like I just
Speaker 3: haven't been keeping up. And so what you're meant to
Speaker 3: say is what's been keeping you busy?
Speaker 2: And I quite like.
Speaker 3: That, Hey, uncle, blah, what's been keeping you busy? And
Speaker 3: then at least it's open, and then you can kind
Speaker 3: of follow them there rather than making any assumptions about
Speaker 3: what their life looks like at the moment.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I actually like that. I have one uncle who
Speaker 5: known since I was born. Every single year at Christmas,
Speaker 5: he always asks me where do I work?
Speaker 1: And I've only worked at one place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, every single year.
Speaker 3: I was thirty before one uncle stopped saying how's boost juice?
Speaker 2: Fifteen years.
Speaker 1: But I still enjoy This is the problem with small talk, right,
Speaker 1: is that no one's really listening, no one really cares,
Speaker 1: no one's going to remember. Obviously, I find it awkward
Speaker 1: to jump into something deep with people you don't know
Speaker 1: very well. I don't think you should necessarily do that.
Speaker 1: But something about the world, something about the day that's
Speaker 1: not you know, just how are you busy? How are
Speaker 1: you busy? Or you know, like, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: just think we've got to be better than that. And
Speaker 1: I haven't quite cracked it.
Speaker 3: But I think sometimes it's stepping stones, right, And then
Speaker 3: you come across something really interesting, but you can't force it,
Speaker 3: and you also don't want to sound like you're prying,
Speaker 3: which I guess is the point about being nosy. There
Speaker 3: are some people who are going into this season with
Speaker 3: things they really don't want to talk about, well with bruises,
Speaker 3: they don't want pressed.
Speaker 1: If you're emotionally intelligent, you can tell that. So if
Speaker 1: I say to you, how are you and your eyes
Speaker 1: filled with I'm going to change your subject ye pretty fast.
Speaker 1: I like saying, what have you been watching lately?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 3: No, no, I do. I do like that. I do
Speaker 3: like everyone reads yeah, but everyone watches something.
Speaker 2: It's very true.
Speaker 1: We want to jump into though, Hi, uncle Bob, what
Speaker 1: have you been watching lately? That over watch your.
Speaker 5: Start signed Bob, And then like Aquarius, I'm like, I
Speaker 5: don't know anything.
Speaker 4: Anything about that, and now we're stuck.
Speaker 1: And now it was stuck.
Speaker 3: There was one that I realized I've been doing that
Speaker 3: I didn't know was rude. But I will stop, which
Speaker 3: is apparently you've got to stop walking into places, whether
Speaker 3: that is a restaurant, a venue, a home and ask
Speaker 3: for a phone charge.
Speaker 2: That apparently is very rude, rude. I've done it at
Speaker 2: the gym.
Speaker 3: I've done it at like I am constantly asking strangers
Speaker 3: to charge my phone and it's like, I need to
Speaker 3: sort out the battery life on my phone.
Speaker 2: That's what I need.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but then you have to remember to charge the portable.
Speaker 1: I never do. People bought me those before, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: you are assuming that I have ever gott to charge
Speaker 1: this if I can't charge my phone, But it's correct.
Speaker 1: I do like that one in here where the etiquette
Speaker 1: is like don't leave the house with uncharged devices. Brent
Speaker 1: never has this device charged. He's always like, I'm nearly
Speaker 1: out of juice.
Speaker 6: He says, day, can't charge your phone, Come on now.
Speaker 3: I also liked if you find yourself in an interaction
Speaker 3: where someone is cleaning, join them in cleaning. I went
Speaker 3: through all the comments on this and there were just
Speaker 3: really good basic ones. And you often do see You'll
Speaker 3: be in a situation where a woman is in the
Speaker 3: kitchen cleaning dishes, and someone will talk at her.
Speaker 5: It might be me and holding a glass of wine
Speaker 5: trying to scrub around the elbow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, mum, do you know where the rest of the
Speaker 2: wine is? And Mum's just like sweating and stuff, and
Speaker 2: it's like you, no, you should probably pick up a teacher.
Speaker 1: I wonder if there's a line in that, out louders,
Speaker 1: We'll have to tell us, because very good rule of thumb.
Speaker 1: If you're at someone's house and they're hosting you and
Speaker 1: there cleaning, always jumping off for help, some people do
Speaker 1: not like you're doing that. Some people are get upset
Speaker 1: about and then because also you're going to have come
Speaker 1: with a lot of questions to that situation. Where does
Speaker 1: this go? Where does that go?
Speaker 6: Cloth?
Speaker 1: Where's your glasses? Where's your both? Some people don't like that.
Speaker 1: I like that. I'm like, go for your life, clean
Speaker 1: as much as you like. I'm going to go sit
Speaker 1: down with my wine and you're going to clean up
Speaker 1: the kitchen. But I'd love to know what out loud,
Speaker 1: I think the line is about that one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, true, true.
Speaker 3: I think it's like even get everything away, like collecting
Speaker 3: things and putting them in the sink at least, is
Speaker 3: like you've done some of the job.
Speaker 4: Look like you're doing something.
Speaker 3: Just fiddle, yeah, wipe a table, yeah, fiddle and even
Speaker 3: put ttawel in left hand, right hand, left hand, right hand,
Speaker 3: but just appear to be helping.
Speaker 2: That's absolutely moving around.
Speaker 3: I liked as well. Understand the purpose of a group chat.
Speaker 3: It is not for logistics, it's not for disagreements. Those
Speaker 3: should happen one on one.
Speaker 1: This is genius. As we've talked about a few times,
Speaker 1: I'm not as into group chats as everybody else because
Speaker 1: I just find it overwhelming. And this is particularly what
Speaker 1: I hate about them is where people are fighting about
Speaker 1: things or where people are just saidlessly going is it
Speaker 1: two or is it three?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, this isn't the place.
Speaker 3: Okay, But how about we were speaking recently about what
Speaker 3: dish you bring, and I have group chats that are
Speaker 3: just like I'm bringing the salad, I'm bringing the rolls,
Speaker 3: I'm bringing the bla. I prefer to be told what
Speaker 3: to bring. Is that just a passive thing. I'll just
Speaker 3: wait till the end, give me the shit thing. But like,
Speaker 3: I'm not going to jump in when the group chat's
Speaker 3: going off with everyone with their special things, because you
Speaker 3: get fifty four messages and then you go, I don't know,
Speaker 3: I don't know what's left?
Speaker 2: Is someone writing this?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 5: I think there needs to be an organizer. So yeah,
Speaker 5: no what everyone's bringing, because one time I did go
Speaker 5: to a Christmas thing and there were five salads, yeah,
Speaker 5: and like three prawns.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was it.
Speaker 3: Exactly allocate, allocate people's strengths.
Speaker 2: I have one last etiquete question.
Speaker 3: I wanted to ask, Oh, yes, because I saw this
Speaker 3: in the comments and oh I didn't know this.
Speaker 2: When you give someone.
Speaker 3: A gift, you should always give them the gift receipt.
Speaker 2: Do you do this no, so they can exchange it?
Speaker 3: Do you think there's a price, because I decided that
Speaker 3: if it's less than thirty bucks, I'm not giving them
Speaker 3: the gift receipt, and if it's a child, I'm probably
Speaker 3: not giving them the gift receipt. Right, But if I've
Speaker 3: spent a decent amount of money on a family member
Speaker 3: and there's a chance I need to exchange or it's
Speaker 3: not quite right, what do we think?
Speaker 1: That's really interesting? Because I think it's rude to give
Speaker 1: the gift receipt really but maybe that's an individual thing.
Speaker 3: Because a gift re seat doesn't say how much it was,
Speaker 3: but it entitles you to go on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe it depends, like if it's an item of clothing, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: because sizing is an issue. Okay, But otherwise I think
Speaker 1: it's a bit rude because it kind of says, I
Speaker 1: bought you this thing, but you might hate it. I
Speaker 1: think we should be assuming that you're gonna like it.
Speaker 5: I have been occasions where I've given a gift receipt
Speaker 5: because I want them to enjoy the gift I'm giving,
Speaker 5: but I don't give it to them.
Speaker 1: Straight like that. I just say I have the receipt.
Speaker 1: If you do want something else, offer from this website.
Speaker 3: I remember getting a few books for Christmas and there
Speaker 3: was a gift recept accompanied, and I thought that was
Speaker 3: a good case.
Speaker 1: Because you might have had some of those.
Speaker 3: I might have had them, I might have read them,
Speaker 3: I might have whatever, And that's a really easy thing
Speaker 3: to go and exchange or whatever.
Speaker 1: I think it's really funny. I always think that's about
Speaker 1: gifts when it's Christmas, is that part of giving a
Speaker 1: gift is that it's supposed to be somebody else's vision
Speaker 1: of you, right, Like, it's not just about the thing itself.
Speaker 1: Otherwise we just all give each other money. And obviously
Speaker 1: you do give people money, like teenagers just want money
Speaker 1: or things. But if you've gone to the trouble of
Speaker 1: choosing a thing for a person, I think it's a
Speaker 1: bit transactional to always just be like, oh, you could
Speaker 1: just have the one hundred dollars, you know what I mean? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, because an ideal world you've chosen and that
Speaker 1: person should at least pretend that they like it, Like
Speaker 1: if it doesn't fit or if you've already got it
Speaker 1: or anything like that, then sure.
Speaker 5: But like, but something very personal like jewelry given books,
Speaker 5: like I would find that's like such a personal gift.
Speaker 1: But if I brought you a necklace, right and you
Speaker 1: hated it and so you just went and swapped it
Speaker 1: for a hat.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it sounds likely.
Speaker 1: Just wasteful, a bit like, well I didn't buy you
Speaker 1: that at all, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: But it's more about you.
Speaker 1: Than then you'd be like, where's that necklace and be
Speaker 1: like a home, would.
Speaker 4: You like my new hat?
Speaker 2: Hi?
Speaker 3: I'm going to put a pole in the out Louders
Speaker 3: Facebook group about whether we think it is polite etiquette
Speaker 3: to include a gift receipt, because that is.
Speaker 2: Something I cannot quite decide.
Speaker 3: Out louders in a moment, is the decision you're currently
Speaker 3: facing a hat, a haircut, or a tattoo we discuss.
Speaker 2: Out louders.
Speaker 3: We've got a listener dilemma, and we need your collective
Speaker 3: wisdom to help us and our partners UI solve it.
Speaker 2: Please.
Speaker 3: Here is the problem. From an out louder. I have
Speaker 3: a work and family dilemma. I work with my mother
Speaker 3: in law and we get along fine, except her perfume.
Speaker 3: It gives me a headache on the good days and
Speaker 3: a full migraine on the worst days. I've asked her
Speaker 3: repeatedly not to wear perfume to work, and have told
Speaker 3: her when I've had to go home with centrigered migraines,
Speaker 3: but she still wears it every day and it causes
Speaker 3: me pain. Please help me find a way to get.
Speaker 2: Her to stop once and for all. The question is
Speaker 2: what do you do next?
Speaker 1: You can tell I could barely wait to jump in
Speaker 1: on this because this is a meedy one. Yeah, Because
Speaker 1: the thing is, is this a passag maneuver? Because if
Speaker 1: she knows it's giving her daughter and Laura, ifn you're
Speaker 1: an expert in this particular Jesse, she knows it's giving
Speaker 1: her order Laura headache. Or do you think that maybe
Speaker 1: she doesn't believe it? You know how, there's a sort
Speaker 1: of sometimes that oh, such a snowflake with your eye
Speaker 1: roll migrains, like you know what I mean? That kind
Speaker 1: of vibe perfume can be.
Speaker 2: It's a very personal firing.
Speaker 1: Some people feel undressed without it.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and you can wear it for years and years.
Speaker 3: Like it's a big thing to ask someone with someone
Speaker 3: not to wear it, Like I understand that, and it's
Speaker 3: an awkward thing to broach. I would say something along
Speaker 3: the lines of.
Speaker 2: I think I might be allergic to your perfume. How
Speaker 2: annoying is that?
Speaker 3: And I would just kind of put it on me
Speaker 3: and go like, I know that's really annoying, but I'm
Speaker 3: having this like allergic reaction, Like I would put it
Speaker 3: in that framework rather than kind of suggest I wonder
Speaker 3: if she's been too subtle about it.
Speaker 1: Maybe you know how some people are allergic to artificial sense,
Speaker 1: but they're not allergic to natural sense. What if you
Speaker 1: found out a scent that you're not allergic to, and
Speaker 1: you bought your mother in law a present of that
Speaker 1: perfect with a gift receipt. Yep, yep, yeah, with a
Speaker 1: gift receipt. And you are like, I think this would
Speaker 1: be lovely for you and it won't give me a headache.
Speaker 1: And then see what happens. Although perfume is a tricky
Speaker 1: thing to buy something, I was also thinking that.
Speaker 5: Or I say, let's go a bit rogue and every
Speaker 5: time your mother in law, especially at work, walks past
Speaker 5: you or going into a meeting room that you're in,
Speaker 5: just go, oh oh, no, does anyone have a spray
Speaker 5: something just came in and I don't know what that is?
Speaker 1: What is that smell with deathol? And like just spray
Speaker 1: itel like she smells bad? Yeah, yeah, that'll word evil Genie.
Speaker 1: I think that it really works.
Speaker 3: Out loud is what would you do next? Share your
Speaker 3: thoughts in the mummir out loud Facebook group. Also, if
Speaker 3: you have a dilemma, send it to us at out
Speaker 3: loud at momamea dot com, dot a you We would
Speaker 3: love to help. Apparently there are only three different types
Speaker 3: of decisions and working out what kind of decision you're
Speaker 3: facing can be life changing me. It's sent through this
Speaker 3: substack note this week that quotes James Clear And if
Speaker 3: anyone is looking for a book in January that promises
Speaker 3: to change your life, Atomic habits, audiobook, hard copy, whatever
Speaker 3: it is, you know what great gift.
Speaker 2: If you know the persuct hasn't read.
Speaker 1: It, that book spikes every jam.
Speaker 2: Every January that book goes off. I have read it.
Speaker 2: I bloody love it.
Speaker 3: But this actually isn't from that book. He has a
Speaker 3: newsletter which I would also recommend. But it's his theory,
Speaker 3: and here's what he writes. Most decisions are like hats.
Speaker 3: Try one, if you don't like it, put it back
Speaker 3: and try another. The cost of a mistake is low,
Speaker 3: so move quickly and try a bunch of hats. Some
Speaker 3: decisions are like haircuts. You can fix a bad one,
Speaker 3: but it won't be quick and you might feel foolish
Speaker 3: for a while. That said, don't be scared of a
Speaker 3: bad haircut. Trying something new is usually a risk worth taking.
Speaker 3: If it doesn't work out, by this time next year,
Speaker 3: you will have moved on, and so will everyone else.
Speaker 3: A few decisions are like tattoos. Once you make them,
Speaker 3: you have to live with them. Some mistakes the era
Speaker 3: of maybe you'll move on for a moment, but then
Speaker 3: your glance in the mirror and be reminded of that
Speaker 3: choice all over again, even years later, the decision leaves
Speaker 3: a mark. When you're dealing with an irreversible choice, move
Speaker 3: slowly and think carefully.
Speaker 1: Oh, I love this. My question is, do you.
Speaker 3: Think it's that simple to always classify a decision like
Speaker 3: I can definitely see hats, and I can see tattoos,
Speaker 3: But there are some decisions even I feel like I'm
Speaker 3: facing at the moment where I don't know how to
Speaker 3: classify them. And in fact, maybe there's something between a
Speaker 3: haircut and a tattoo that we need a name for.
Speaker 2: What do you reckon?
Speaker 5: I also think with haircut, I feel like, because it's
Speaker 5: the middle one, sometimes what might be a haircut in
Speaker 5: the moment feels like a tattoo decision. Ye, or you
Speaker 5: might mistake it for a hat decision and then you
Speaker 5: just snowball. Because I have thought about this quite a bit,
Speaker 5: and I think I treat a lot of my haircut
Speaker 5: decisions as hat decisions. Really give me an example, like
Speaker 5: actual haircut, Remember when I dyed my hair blue.
Speaker 1: But that's okay because that was a hat decision. The
Speaker 1: blue goes away, but it was a haircut decision. I
Speaker 1: had that for a year. Well, it was a literal
Speaker 1: haircut decision.
Speaker 3: I wonder if hair dye is the one between the
Speaker 3: haircut and a tattoo, right, because a haircut's one thing. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I've cut my hair too shot, I've gotten a full
Speaker 3: fringe that hasn't suited me. There's some bad months. I've
Speaker 3: also screwed up the dye, and there's some bad years.
Speaker 3: There's some real damage.
Speaker 2: It takes a lot to fix. And it's not as
Speaker 2: simple as.
Speaker 1: Just like, I'm still a haircut decision. Though, Let's give
Speaker 1: some real life applications. Resigning from a job when you
Speaker 1: don't have another job yet because it's making you miserable.
Speaker 1: Is that a haircut or a hat or a tattoo?
Speaker 1: A haircut? I think it's a haircut, right, Yeah, And
Speaker 1: it might be really difficult because you might have a
Speaker 1: period of time where you are skinned where you realize
Speaker 1: you're going to have to either go back to that
Speaker 1: job or get one just the same because your dream
Speaker 1: job hasn't turned up yet. Whatever. It probably ticks the
Speaker 1: box of in a year, will it have sorted itself
Speaker 1: out in some way? And the haircut definition, right, we.
Speaker 3: Go, what gift am I gonna buy? What am I
Speaker 3: gonna have for lunch? Really simple ones that we make
Speaker 3: every day, and we probably fret over some of those
Speaker 3: things for longer than we should.
Speaker 5: Yeah, because I feel like some people's hats are different
Speaker 5: to other people's hats. Like I take my hat decisions
Speaker 5: sometimes quite seriously.
Speaker 3: Yeah, even like work decisions that I know are fairly
Speaker 3: I have been known at work to treat a hat
Speaker 3: like a tattoo and to go, no, if we make
Speaker 3: this small change, then it's gonna be permanent, and it's
Speaker 3: gonna be And it's like, nah, you've got to evolve
Speaker 3: more quickly than that and kind of be impulsive.
Speaker 1: Moved into a new place.
Speaker 2: That's the one I'm struggling with.
Speaker 1: That's a haircut decision too. No, it's not, I think
Speaker 1: I think the tattoo, No, it's not, because you could
Speaker 1: move back, you know what I mean. Like the haircut,
Speaker 1: it's still a haircut. It's a drastic haircut. It's a
Speaker 1: buzz cut, like it's not a trim, you know. So
Speaker 1: maybe the haircut, like what you're looking for here is
Speaker 1: also it's a buzz cut, not a trim, so the
Speaker 1: growback will be bad, but if you really really want
Speaker 1: to try it. Sometimes we talk ourselves out of things
Speaker 1: because we're like, it's forever, but it's not forever. Okay,
Speaker 1: you can come back. We all know people who've been
Speaker 1: places and come back again.
Speaker 3: Yes, but a bad investment, a bad money decision, whether
Speaker 3: that's marrying someone who spends all the money, whether that
Speaker 3: is buying a place you shouldn't have, whatever, a bad
Speaker 3: money decision can be attached to.
Speaker 1: That's so true. But the thing is is there are
Speaker 1: or even within this framework, there are always going to
Speaker 1: be things that are beyond your control. So like buying
Speaker 1: a house in a place that then suddenly the price
Speaker 1: is drop or whatever, like, that's not really something you
Speaker 1: can control. So it might have started out as a
Speaker 1: haircut decision, more often to a tattoo decision because you've
Speaker 1: lost all your money. But there are some things you
Speaker 1: can't control.
Speaker 2: Okay. So one of the true tattooed choosing.
Speaker 1: To have kids children possibly the ultimate tattoo decision. Right
Speaker 1: who you married. You could argue that's a buzz cut
Speaker 1: decision as well.
Speaker 5: I don't think you should go into marriage thinking it's
Speaker 5: a haircut.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know tattoos they are a tattoo decision. Like
Speaker 1: that's well, you can, It's true there are not that
Speaker 1: many fol But I think one of the ways this
Speaker 1: is really helpful is also to sometimes remind yourself of
Speaker 1: what might be a hat for you could be a
Speaker 1: haircut for someone else. So if you're a manager, for example,
Speaker 1: at work, if you're making a decision that affects how
Speaker 1: you work, it's a hat decision, right, like, because who
Speaker 1: cares if it doesn't work out? Doesn't matter. If you're
Speaker 1: making a decision that affects how everyone on the team
Speaker 1: has to work, it's a haircut decision because that's going
Speaker 1: to have more repercussions for everybody and it's going to
Speaker 1: be harder to undo. So it's like this might be
Speaker 1: a helpful framework to be able to think, well, it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter to me, it's just a hat, but to
Speaker 1: that person, it's a haircut.
Speaker 3: I have a lot of trouble making all sorts of decisions,
Speaker 3: and I get a bit of decision paralysis, and I
Speaker 3: think it's because I look at almost all situations in
Speaker 3: life and I feel as though there is a right decision,
Speaker 3: or there is a perfect decision, and there is a
Speaker 3: wrong decision. It's almost like it's a test, and I go,
Speaker 3: if you stuff this up, there will be enormous grammifications
Speaker 3: or whatever, which is perfectionism, and it's not true. It's
Speaker 3: like an illusion. It's just you've got to take the
Speaker 3: course or whatever. But in that way, I think you
Speaker 3: can spend so much of your life focusing on the
Speaker 3: small scale ones, whereas I was reading something that said
Speaker 3: you should spend like ten percent of your day really
Speaker 3: thinking about the tattooed decisions, because we actually don't spend
Speaker 3: that much time. Some people always know they want kids,
Speaker 3: some people don't. We talked about that recently. But the
Speaker 3: tattooed decisions I think we put off, don't meaningfully engage with,
Speaker 3: and we can get swept up in them and they go, oh,
Speaker 3: I made this permanent decison, or I've been making a
Speaker 3: decision for ten years and it landed me in a
Speaker 3: place I don't want to be.
Speaker 1: But I don't believe there is such a thing as
Speaker 1: a perfect decision ever. I think that every single big,
Speaker 1: big choice you make will still have some things about
Speaker 1: it that are a bit shit, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: I think that there are you know, we had that
Speaker 1: whole conversation on out Loud last week about children and
Speaker 1: whether or not it was okay to say sometimes like
Speaker 1: I sometimes think about what would happen if I've made
Speaker 1: a different choice, and we talked about whether that was okay,
Speaker 1: and I think it is. It's not really true that
Speaker 1: there is one perfect choice.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I hate the feeling like this is such
Speaker 3: a low stakes one. But you're trying to plan a holiday.
Speaker 3: Maybe you're looking at January and you're going, where am
Speaker 3: I going to go?
Speaker 1: That's a hair cut, not a hat because it's expensive
Speaker 1: and of involved usually if you're going away with other
Speaker 1: people it involves them too.
Speaker 3: And you go and you think, even how I'm going
Speaker 3: to spend the holidays, like am I going to go away?
Speaker 2: Am I not? Who am I going to spend it with?
Speaker 1: Whatever?
Speaker 2: And you do something, You go made the wrong decision.
Speaker 2: I've gone to the wrong place.
Speaker 3: I've booked the wrong hotel or Airbnb, and I should
Speaker 3: have done this instead, Like I hate sitting in that discount.
Speaker 5: And see that was me on the holiday, and it
Speaker 5: was like a solo holiday by myself. I'm okay with
Speaker 5: that decision if I had planned that for other people,
Speaker 5: like my friends or family. I even get this when
Speaker 5: I am planning, like taking my friends out to dinner
Speaker 5: at a restaurant. If I'm choosing the restaurant, and like
Speaker 5: they complain about like how their steak is cooked or
Speaker 5: like the service was too slow.
Speaker 4: I think that's my fault.
Speaker 1: You take it on and I think that is the criticism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And then it.
Speaker 1: Freaks me out because I'm like I always tell everyone.
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm sheep. I need to follow.
Speaker 4: I don't want to lead, you know.
Speaker 1: I think there's another rule about these decisions, right, other
Speaker 1: people's tattoo decisions. You have to just support the decision
Speaker 1: they've made. I saw this poem on Instagram the other
Speaker 1: day that I thought was very true, and it was like,
Speaker 1: be kind about the names your friends give to their children,
Speaker 1: praise their hair cuts, love their tattoos. It doesn't really
Speaker 1: matter if that's what you would do, which is one
Speaker 1: hundred percent true, right, because there's no more of a
Speaker 1: dickhead test than you show them your tattoo your literal
Speaker 1: tattoo and they go, oh, like what I have to
Speaker 1: do or tell them you know, oh, we're calling her
Speaker 1: ballerina and they're like, oh, it's like no, Like the
Speaker 1: these are tattooed decisions, and if you like the person involved,
Speaker 1: you have to say great choice.
Speaker 5: I noticed this about dating as well, like you can
Speaker 5: tell when your friend is kind of not interested in
Speaker 5: someone versus when they're obsessed with the person they're dating
Speaker 5: by how other people react to when they show them photos.
Speaker 5: Because like, if he's show a photo of like a
Speaker 5: random guy, and you're like, I kind of like him,
Speaker 5: it's a bit of a dick to me, then they're like, oh,
Speaker 5: I don't like his hair, I don't like.
Speaker 1: This he's too short.
Speaker 5: But if it's like someone else, it could be the
Speaker 5: exact same guy, and you're like, I love this man,
Speaker 5: and everyone's so cute.
Speaker 1: He's so hot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's amazing, he looks kind.
Speaker 1: So I always appreciating Like that, always so good feedback.
Speaker 3: I also I read something called the regret test, which
Speaker 3: I thought was really helpful, which was about there are
Speaker 3: so many iterations of this, but imagine yourself in ten years,
Speaker 3: which choice would minimize regret and which choice makes me proud?
Speaker 3: And it was saying that this is so much better
Speaker 3: than pros and cons, Like how when you look back
Speaker 3: in ten years, what I regret.
Speaker 2: Not making this decision?
Speaker 3: Because sometimes the decision is not making one and that's
Speaker 3: also one that you have to kind of live with.
Speaker 1: Oprah says. We were talking about Oprah Wisdom on the
Speaker 1: show this week, and she says, if you don't know
Speaker 1: what to do, do nothing because like often, many things
Speaker 1: in life will sort themselves out, not everything, quite a
Speaker 1: few you will, whereas quick action can often be the mistake.
Speaker 1: The truth of it is, though you know, even with
Speaker 1: all this hat, haircut, tattoos, often it'll be the tiniest
Speaker 1: decisions that you make that will change your life. Did
Speaker 1: you get on the bus with that guy who turned
Speaker 1: out to be the person of your dreams? Did you
Speaker 1: pick up the phone when somebody called you about a
Speaker 1: dream job? Did you you know?
Speaker 2: Whatever?
Speaker 1: It is like, sometimes it's just the decision. You don't
Speaker 1: know a big you think the hats exactly, that's magical.
Speaker 1: After the break. Recommendations for something to read, eat and
Speaker 1: smell this weekend, including mine one, which is a piece
Speaker 1: about the greatest generation ever.
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access.
Speaker 3: We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively from Mum
Speaker 3: and Maya. Subscribers follow the link in the show notes
Speaker 3: to get us in your ears five days a week.
Speaker 2: And a huge thank you to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 5: Vibes ideas atmosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 4: This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 1: Out loud as it's Friday, and you know what happens
Speaker 1: on Friday. We give you recommendations of things to watch, read, eat,
Speaker 1: do whatever with, spray self with. I think perhaps Adam's
Speaker 1: going to do I forgot my prop.
Speaker 5: Oh no, we're on YouTube, You're on you and I
Speaker 5: wanted to show everyone. Just pretend it's on my desk
Speaker 5: so I might take a photo and post it in
Speaker 5: the out Outers groupe. It is literally going to be
Speaker 5: everyone's favorite summer cent. So it's the away hair and
Speaker 5: body missed in the sense Saint Barts. I think they
Speaker 5: only have one cent so far in Australia. It's from Sephora.
Speaker 5: It's basically a body missed and it smells so good.
Speaker 5: It smells like a summer holiday. It's like coconuty and
Speaker 5: pineapplely and fresh and tropical. It is a little bit
Speaker 5: pricier than a usual body miss. I have a small
Speaker 5: one in my handbag. It's like fifty five dollars. A
Speaker 5: bigger one is seventy dollars. But it's so like good
Speaker 5: that it lasts a whole day. So I use it
Speaker 5: as a perfume.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, what's different, what's the difference really
Speaker 1: between a body? Miss? Okay, so perfume we go, yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 5: Because it's like so it smells really really good and
Speaker 5: it's so strong, I only go hair, chest, crotch.
Speaker 4: Something, not purposely doing it there.
Speaker 5: It's just like that's where like the rest of your
Speaker 5: body is surely yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, got it? Like no, no, yeah, yeah, I'm sure
Speaker 1: there's something about like clothes.
Speaker 4: On yeah yeah, no, no no.
Speaker 1: It just smells so fresh and good. And I've been
Speaker 1: getting a lot of compliments on it.
Speaker 2: Oh I like that from so Fara.
Speaker 3: Well, I have a recommendation that's a little bit city centric,
Speaker 3: but I think there's an underlying principle which we can
Speaker 3: all adopt this Christmas.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: I was speaking to a friend recently who's having a
Speaker 3: tough time. This is not a period that she's particularly
Speaker 3: looking forward to. They're having a Christmas but big emotional
Speaker 3: mental load and they just went, we're outsourcing and she
Speaker 3: found that Dinner Ladies does Christmas dishes and Dinner Ladies
Speaker 3: is this great. It's a Australian lady startup started in
Speaker 3: New South Wales. Really good for if you know anyone
Speaker 3: who is unwell or postpartum or whatever, great thing to
Speaker 3: send them a Dinner Ladies voucher. And it's like home cooked,
Speaker 3: real ingredients, locally sauced good food. It's not it's really
Speaker 3: really good food. And they cater for Christmas, which I
Speaker 3: had no idea about. So you can get your ham
Speaker 3: and your turkey and your side salads and your dessert.
Speaker 3: I've got to bring an entree for something, and they've
Speaker 3: got like g roast tomato tart. They've got duck sausage rolls,
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff that you can buy and then
Speaker 3: and it's kinder. It's kind of for me to bring
Speaker 3: something from Dinner Ladies.
Speaker 1: I think you mean that make it yourself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that make it myself.
Speaker 3: It's not cheap, but that's because it's quality food. And
Speaker 3: if everyone pitches in for the catering. That's a good idea,
Speaker 3: which I know some families do a whip around. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and you know what, do it in place of a gift,
Speaker 3: just go you know what, we're not doing gifts. Everyone
Speaker 3: put in forty five bucks for food, and we'll just
Speaker 3: give each other the gift of not spending the day
Speaker 3: in the kitchen, because we know it often comes down
Speaker 3: to one or five sweaty ladies in the kitchen. And
Speaker 3: if you don't feel like doing that this year, then
Speaker 3: outsource that is. I love the gift that you should
Speaker 3: give yourself. Holly, what have you got?
Speaker 1: I've got an essay that is going to be very
Speaker 1: interesting to a certain portion of our audience, which.
Speaker 2: Is in the New York Times.
Speaker 1: And it's like one of those you know, like those
Speaker 1: interactive essays that have videos when you can scroll and
Speaker 1: things pop out, and it's called is Gen X actually
Speaker 1: the Greatest Generation?
Speaker 2: I didn't click on that. I saw the headline. Now
Speaker 2: I was like, this is not any of.
Speaker 1: My business, and it's all about Generation X. And it
Speaker 1: has collected together a lot of the icons, American icons
Speaker 1: obviously of Generation X for this very satisfying photo shoot
Speaker 1: that has everyone from Claire Danes to like Christian Slater
Speaker 1: and Amy Mann and Neve Campbell and Jennine Grufferlo and
Speaker 1: all these like Generation X icons in these really big
Speaker 1: photo shoots, which is great. But then the writer of
Speaker 1: this piece is a really big, serious New York Times.
Speaker 1: Piece is called Amanda fourteen. And it's the most satisfying
Speaker 1: read because what I've decided, I think about generations. We
Speaker 1: talk about generations all the time on this show, right,
Speaker 1: because they're sort of arbitrary boundaries that are supposed to
Speaker 1: say a lot about you, and I think we all
Speaker 1: know that they don't really, but they also do. It's
Speaker 1: like to misquote Julia Gillard, I think they don't say
Speaker 1: everything about you, Yeah, but they definitely say.
Speaker 3: Something about It's a cultural reference point by which it's
Speaker 3: like a color palette by which you see the world.
Speaker 3: And what's interesting is that we all have completely different ones.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And because the technology that's available to you, the
Speaker 1: big cultural touchstones, of course they influence you. Of course
Speaker 1: it would be weird if they didn't. And gen X
Speaker 1: were some of the things that she says in this
Speaker 1: that there so good because it's basically about gen X
Speaker 1: creativity because The people who are all interviewed in them
Speaker 1: were some of the filmmakers and musicians, and it's about
Speaker 1: the iconic gen X albums and gen X movies, all
Speaker 1: of which are excellent. But also this what makes gen
Speaker 1: X special, which is that they're the last generation who
Speaker 1: were not online until they were adults. But they went
Speaker 1: through that whole change, but they had childhoods that did
Speaker 1: not have technology in them. They were latch key kids.
Speaker 1: It was before helicopter parenting. So they're often discussed as
Speaker 1: being this cohort of like lots of divorced parents too,
Speaker 1: So this cohort of like unpatrolled, unsupervised teens roaming the world.
Speaker 1: You know, like, this is what gen X was, like,
Speaker 1: this is what the kids in Stranger Things are meant
Speaker 1: to be and the kids in et are meant to be,
Speaker 1: and you know all of those and how that fostered
Speaker 1: a certain amount of tolerance for boredom and creativity and
Speaker 1: all these things. And it's just such a beautiful and
Speaker 1: interesting essay. So I'm recommending that, particularly to anyone who
Speaker 1: is gen X. If you're wondering what gen X is,
Speaker 1: there's a bit of argument whether it's you were born
Speaker 1: between nineteen sixty and nineteen eighty or whether you're born
Speaker 1: between nineteen sixty four and nineteen eighty four. Either way,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty much slap bang in the middle of that.
Speaker 1: And those either a boomer or gen X, Yeah, what happened,
Speaker 1: And with some of the things in it that are
Speaker 1: very true. They're talking about gen X heroes and how
Speaker 1: we never expected our heroes to be perfect. We always
Speaker 1: had our characters had the freedom to be flawed. And
Speaker 1: I was reading that and being like, yes, that's what
Speaker 1: I'm always arguing that there's no obligation to be exemplary.
Speaker 1: We have a sensibility that's very much about rejecting norms.
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah blah blah. There's probably never going to
Speaker 1: be a gen X president. They were saying of the US,
Speaker 1: we've probably missed that gap. Obama just would squeak in
Speaker 1: if you took the sixty one and Real so full
Speaker 1: of all these really interrithing things. I absolutely loved it.
Speaker 1: And if it is your era, it's like classic gen
Speaker 1: X movies Before Sunrise, Before Sunset, the Breakfast Club sixty Okay,
Speaker 1: it's like a walk down memory Lane in nineteen ninety four,
Speaker 1: definitely maybe came our ill communication pilafe. I'm probably talking
Speaker 1: in a language you don't understand. Anyway, it's an epic essay,
Speaker 1: but I'm throwing in one extra tiny little recommendation, which
Speaker 1: is a very wholesome one. This is the most megan
Speaker 1: thing I ever do in the year. And I think
Speaker 1: I might have mentioned it before, but at the beginning
Speaker 1: of December, me and Billy did this on the weekend
Speaker 1: and it was so satisfying. We get a jar, an
Speaker 1: empty jar, and we write down all the Christmas movies
Speaker 1: that we love on pieces of paper and we put
Speaker 1: them in the jar and we put the lid on it.
Speaker 1: And then whenever it's movie night, which is like weekend
Speaker 1: nights and stuff, you go in and you pull a
Speaker 1: random one out and we watch a Christmas movie and
Speaker 1: it's our little jar of Christmas movies. And if you've
Speaker 1: got kids, it's the best thing ever. That's a cue.
Speaker 1: Oh I like it. We watched Jingle all the Way
Speaker 1: on the weekend with Arnold Schwarzenegger trying to find a toy.
Speaker 1: It was not a particularly great movie, but it is
Speaker 1: die Hard. There's fun. Oh Diehard's in there. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: Diehard's in there. All the classics are in there. So
Speaker 1: I'll put a picture up of our little jar of
Speaker 1: Christmas movies.
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us, and do not
Speaker 3: forget that Saturdays are when Parenting out Loud drops That
Speaker 3: has Monique Bowley, Amelia Lester, and Stacy Hicks. New episode
Speaker 3: dropping tomorrow. Find it in its own feed by searching
Speaker 3: Parenting out Loud and tap follow so you don't miss
Speaker 3: an episode.
Speaker 2: A link, as always, will be in the show notes.
Speaker 3: And before we go, big thank you to our team
Speaker 3: group executive producer Ruth Devine, Executive producer Sashatanic.
Speaker 5: Senior audio producer is Leah Porges, our video producer is
Speaker 5: Josh Green, and our.
Speaker 1: Junior content producer is Tessa Kodovic. Bye bye, Mamma. Mia
Speaker 1: acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we've
Speaker 1: recorded this podcast.