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Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. Oh hi, there,

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Speaker 1: it's your host, Claire Murphy, and today I'm bringing you

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Speaker 1: a powerful episode from our archives that you might have missed.

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Speaker 1: Perfect for some extra weekend listening. It's an episode where

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Speaker 1: Jemma Bath interviewed Laura McConnell, who grew up in a

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Speaker 1: fundamentalist cult with no name. Along with no official title.

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Speaker 1: The group also claims to have no registration around the world,

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Speaker 1: no formal hierarchy, and no official place of worship. According

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Speaker 1: to Laura, it's this secrecy and denial that has allowed

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Speaker 1: abuse to flourish within the community. In this episode, she

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Speaker 1: exposes what she witnessed and experienced inside the group she

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Speaker 1: calls the Truth.

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Speaker 2: This episode contains discussions of sexual assault and mental health struggles.

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Speaker 2: Please take care while listening. It's nineteen in Melbourne and

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Speaker 2: Laura McConnell is sifting through photo after photo on a

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Speaker 2: microfish at her university library, searching for old newspaper clippings.

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Speaker 2: She's only six months into her new life after escaping

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Speaker 2: an ultra conservative cult known as the Truth. After feeling

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Speaker 2: uncomfortable in her world for years. Laura made the enormous

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Speaker 2: decision to stop believing and move away from her community

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Speaker 2: in western New South Wales. But in her world, that

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Speaker 2: meant saying goodbye to her family, her friends, everyone she's

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Speaker 2: ever known. She thought if she left, she'd die. That's

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Speaker 2: what she was told. But here she still was, and

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Speaker 2: something was bugging her. Laura grew up believing that two

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Speaker 2: teenagers from her community, Norella and Stephen, died in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety two because they listened to the rock band Nirvana.

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Speaker 2: That's what she'd been told, but the story has niggled

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Speaker 2: at her over the years. Something doesn't feel right, and

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Speaker 2: she's keen to investigate. Eventually, she stumbles across an article suicide.

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Speaker 2: The siblings had taken their own lives because they didn't

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Speaker 2: want to live within the confines of their strict religious

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Speaker 2: upbringing anymore. Wow, she'd been lied to. What else were

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Speaker 2: they lying about? As Laura continues to reflect and research

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Speaker 2: the life she left, she realizes something. The world she

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Speaker 2: grew up in was a cult guilty of numerous crimes,

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Speaker 2: crimes that went unspoken, crimes that were normalized by those

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Speaker 2: around her. Grooming sexual abuse, domestic violence, spiritual abuse, financial abuse.

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Speaker 2: She realizes another thing too. These crimes she witnessed were

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Speaker 2: overwhelmingly affecting one half of the group, the women, women

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Speaker 2: who grew up with nowhere to run, no path to freedom,

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Speaker 2: and no voice of their own. I'm Jemma Bath and

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Speaker 2: this is True Crime Conversations a Muma mea podcast exploring

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Speaker 2: the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people

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Speaker 2: who know the most about them. But this month, instead

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Speaker 2: of looking at specific criminal cases, we're focusing in on

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Speaker 2: the people behind the scenes of crime in the eyes

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Speaker 2: of the community she left. Laura McConnell is a true

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Speaker 2: simply because she doesn't believe anymore. But she hasn't gone quietly. Instead,

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Speaker 2: Laura is very loudly and very proudly trying to get

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Speaker 2: the word out about the dangers of the truth. She

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Speaker 2: doesn't want the children and teenagers growing up inside to

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Speaker 2: believe what she did, that there's no way out. She

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Speaker 2: wants to be the inspiration. She wishes she had someone

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Speaker 2: who followed a different path. Perhaps what makes the truth

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Speaker 2: so dangerous is its secretiveness. It has no proper name,

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Speaker 2: no official places of worship, and no doctrinal statements other

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Speaker 2: than the Bible itself. Instead, everything is passed down in

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Speaker 2: person from generation to generation. There are no priests or ministers. Instead,

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Speaker 2: those in charge are called workers. They encourage members to

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Speaker 2: spend their lives proving their worth to God and Jesus,

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Speaker 2: often through acts of suffering. Today's guest grew up in

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Speaker 2: the Truth before making her escape at the age of nineteen.

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Speaker 2: Laura joins us. Now, Laura, how do I even refer

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Speaker 2: to this group or church that you grew up in?

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Speaker 2: Is it true that there's not really a name for it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is so they claim to have been started

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Speaker 3: in the beginning, so they claim not to have a name,

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Speaker 3: and in fact they claim not to have any registrations

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Speaker 3: around the world, no formal kind of church, hierarchy, no name.

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Speaker 2: So for the purposes of this interview, how should we

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Speaker 2: refer to it? How do you refer to the group?

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Speaker 3: I personally call them the Truth because that's what I

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Speaker 3: grew up, calling them the Truth or the Friends or

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Speaker 3: the Way. In Australia, I think internally and people who

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Speaker 3: have left call it the Truth. In America and the

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Speaker 3: US they use that less. They say the two boy twos.

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Speaker 3: But I'm Australian, So I tend to use the truth brilliant.

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Speaker 2: We'll call them the Truth. You said it started at

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Speaker 2: the beginning. Apparently, apparently, can that be pinpointed back to

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Speaker 2: a I'm going to say man, because I assume it's

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Speaker 2: a man, a man, a place, a person, a country.

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Speaker 3: It will be no surprise to anyone outside the Truth

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Speaker 3: to learn that, in fact, it was not started by

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Speaker 3: God or by Jesus. It was started by a man

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Speaker 3: in Ireland in the late eighteen nineties, William Irvine, and

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Speaker 3: then spread to other parts of the world from there.

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Speaker 3: Came out of a very interesting time in Ireland where

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Speaker 3: several fundamentalist groups came out at the same time. The

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Speaker 3: Jehovah's Witnesses, the Exclusive Brethren, and also the Truth came

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Speaker 3: out of this time in Ireland as well. So it

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Speaker 3: was a time of quite a lot of our people

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Speaker 3: and where people were searching for something different to mainstream Christianity,

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Speaker 3: and these fundamentalist groups sprung up. The Truth happens to

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Speaker 3: be quite a secretive version of it, which doesn't share

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Speaker 3: a lot of its background and claims to have no name,

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Speaker 3: for instance.

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Speaker 2: And they call themselves a religion. Is that what they are.

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Speaker 3: They refer to themselves as a non denominational, loose group

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Speaker 3: of Christians when pushed, so you have to push quite

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Speaker 3: hard to get that information from them. And part of

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Speaker 3: that is that none of us are really taught anything

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Speaker 3: else about Christianity outside the group, so we can't, as

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Speaker 3: lay people, usually even explain what our beliefs are or

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Speaker 3: where they fit within the Christian spectrum of beliefs, or

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Speaker 3: in fact, within the spectrum of religion full stop. Because

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Speaker 3: we're not taught anything. We're kept quite in the dark

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Speaker 3: about not only our beginnings and our belief structure, but

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Speaker 3: also about what other Christianity even is. So at a push, yes,

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Speaker 3: they're described as very loose, home based Christians who read

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Speaker 3: the Bible and are dictated to by the Bible, and

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Speaker 3: that's really all they can tell you about where they

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Speaker 3: sit in the Christian spectrum.

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Speaker 2: So I guess my next question was what are the beliefs?

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Speaker 2: Are there any I guess looking back, you could probably

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Speaker 2: pinpoint them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we're told that there really are no rules, a

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Speaker 3: bit like the name thing. There's really no rules. Your

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Speaker 3: spirit led, So you're led by the Bible, right, you

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Speaker 3: read the Bible and you'll interpret it and the people

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Speaker 3: around you, the men around you. Normally, we'll interpret the

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Speaker 3: Bible for you. We had a very literal interpretation of

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Speaker 3: the King James Bible, a very conservative, very extreme, fundamentalist

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Speaker 3: interpretation of the King James Bible. We are led to

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Speaker 3: believe that women should be tightly controlled in terms of

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Speaker 3: their dress and their appearance. We are taught to keep

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Speaker 3: ourselves separate from the world, which is also something common

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Speaker 3: in fundamentalism in general, as is control of women and

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Speaker 3: children and girls. The core beliefs are really very extreme

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Speaker 3: in terms of women's sexuality, gender appearance, that we should

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Speaker 3: be modest at all times, and a lot of that

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Speaker 3: is dictated to us by elder men in our family

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Speaker 3: and families and communities. And you know, things like TVs

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Speaker 3: and radios and pop music when I was growing up

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Speaker 3: were forbidden. It is a little looser these days. Although

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Speaker 3: most people don't have a TV openly, They will have

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Speaker 3: it in a cupboard where it can be shot away

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Speaker 3: and hidden. Lots of people now have computers and the Internet,

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Speaker 3: but that was also forbidden when I was growing up.

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Speaker 3: I live very sheltered lives, so there's this idea that

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Speaker 3: we are in the world, but we are not of

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Speaker 3: the world. So we don't consume things in the world

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Speaker 3: the same way that mainstream Christians do. We are in

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Speaker 3: this world, living in it, but we don't consume things

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Speaker 3: the same way.

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Speaker 2: And is it a I guess, a belief that the

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Speaker 2: world is going to end one day? Is that part

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Speaker 2: of it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, while again we don't openly discuss that, as

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Speaker 3: a lot of other Christian groups do, that you know

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Speaker 3: that there is going to be this end of the world.

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Speaker 3: That is basically a lot of the control is about

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Speaker 3: in the group in that they really fundamentally believe that

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Speaker 3: Jesus is going to return at any moment, and he

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Speaker 3: is going to select from the people in the world

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Speaker 3: the best or a certain group of people who have

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Speaker 3: behaved in a very certain way, coincidentally the way that

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Speaker 3: they have interpreted the Bible inside the truth, and he

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Speaker 3: will nominate those people to go back and be in

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Speaker 3: heaven and everybody else is going to hell. Ultimately, when

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Speaker 3: it boils down to all of this behavior and all

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Speaker 3: of this control that happens within the group is a

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Speaker 3: terrible fear about the world ending any minute, and all

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Speaker 3: of us going to help.

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Speaker 2: Is there a date.

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Speaker 3: Are we working towards the ru fortunately or unfortunately, I

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Speaker 3: don't know. When you do a lot of research into

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Speaker 3: cultic groups, even the ones that have a date, the

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Speaker 3: date moves constantly and nobody says, oh, by the way

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Speaker 3: that date's moved, maybe this is a croc of shit.

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Speaker 3: But even the ones that do have a date, nobody

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Speaker 3: ever seems to do anything with it. But no, there

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Speaker 3: is no date. It's just imminent any second Jesus is returning.

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Speaker 3: And we literally live in fear that we're going to

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Speaker 3: turn around the corner as a woman wearing a pair

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Speaker 3: of jeans, and that Jesus is going to magically reappear

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Speaker 3: and see us in a pair of jeans and be

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Speaker 3: like off to hell for you.

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Speaker 2: Wow, Just how big is this group? Because it doesn't

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Speaker 2: have a name. From my understanding, there's no real places

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Speaker 2: of worship, there's no church or anything like that. It's

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Speaker 2: very elusive. So how is this able to spread? How

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Speaker 2: big is this group?

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Speaker 3: So there has been a lot of turmoil in the

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Speaker 3: past couple of decades. Certainly in Australia there was a

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Speaker 3: lot of people who left in the nineties, there was

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Speaker 3: a big falling out in Canada in the late nineties

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Speaker 3: as well, and a lot of people fell away. It

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Speaker 3: is very hard to get an understanding of how many

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Speaker 3: people are in the group worldwide because with no registered entity,

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Speaker 3: there's not a lot of records that people can act,

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Speaker 3: especially people outside the group like myself. We sort of

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Speaker 3: believe that a group of people who've left a sort

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Speaker 3: of the opinion there used to be around two hundred

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Speaker 3: thousand worldwide. There is probably more like fifty thousand now.

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Speaker 3: I would say, perhaps even less. There is a big

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Speaker 3: reckoning happening in America at the moment, with a lot

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Speaker 3: of abuse alligations coming to light, and I would say

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Speaker 3: the number is falling rapidly by the day. Yeah, when

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Speaker 3: I was growing up, I would have said there was

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Speaker 3: around fifty thousand here in Australia, but I would say

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Speaker 3: that number is ten now at a guess. But you're right,

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Speaker 3: there's no church buildings. So the truth believes that church

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Speaker 3: buildings are worldly, and that we worship in family homes.

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Speaker 3: So we worship in the living rooms and the laundrooms

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Speaker 3: of our community. Of one of the more senior men

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Speaker 3: or families in our community will hold that we have

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Speaker 3: got a history of using things like scout halls and

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Speaker 3: school libraries and want not to have services on a

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Speaker 3: Sunday afternoon to try and encourage outsiders to attend. Once

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Speaker 3: a year there is a large event called the convention,

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Speaker 3: and there is a ground that is owned by a

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Speaker 3: wealthy family. For instance, in a state, that could be

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Speaker 3: old church property, but in theory there is no church

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Speaker 3: property and no church buildings.

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Speaker 2: So in Australia, are there some common towns or states

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Speaker 2: where there are more people inside this group?

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Speaker 3: Yes, there are. Again, I've been out now over twenty years,

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Speaker 3: so I think it has changed a little since my

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Speaker 3: childhood in terms of where people congregate together. But like

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Speaker 3: a lot of fundamentalist groups, not just Christianity but also

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Speaker 3: Judaism and Islam, families and communities tend to congregate together

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Speaker 3: in similar suburbs, in similar towns, And I think there

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Speaker 3: can be a bit of a misconception that people from

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Speaker 3: cultic backgrounds live in kind of compounds, you know, but

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Speaker 3: that's really often not the reality. We just tend to

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Speaker 3: congregate together in family groups and community groups because often

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Speaker 3: our work is very intertwined. Our families work in family businesses,

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Speaker 3: and money is very tied up in each other's lives

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Speaker 3: and investments and work. So personally, my own community comes

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Speaker 3: from rural New South Wales, and there are certainly family

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Speaker 3: groups that congregate together in places like Doubo, places like

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Speaker 3: a Mudgykawer, rural places outside the major centers. That's not

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Speaker 3: to say there are also not large family groups in

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Speaker 3: Sydney and Melbourne and large urban areas. There are, but

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Speaker 3: my own personal experience of the group is more rural.

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Speaker 2: So using your community as an example, does that mean

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Speaker 2: your family lives in one house in a normal neighborhood

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Speaker 2: in the street, and then all of the other families

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Speaker 2: involved in the truth are also descending on that same neighborhood.

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Speaker 3: My personal experience is actually of a farming family. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: my family had farms all within a similar region, and

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Speaker 3: we all shed farm machinery. And this is also common

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Speaker 3: with most fundamentalist groups. With businesses, they share employees, they

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Speaker 3: share family members to work, they share tractors. In rural communities,

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Speaker 3: they all work on each other's farms. So yeah, I

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Speaker 3: mean I come from an environment where our farms were

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Speaker 3: all next door to each other, or at least down

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Speaker 3: the road from each other. The ones who did live

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Speaker 3: in town live within the proximity of each other in

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Speaker 3: a community so that they can get to each other's

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Speaker 3: houses easily on Sundays for services. So yeah, we have

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Speaker 3: our own space and our own homes, but we are

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Speaker 3: also very close and everything is shared, you know, in terms,

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Speaker 3: not everything, but lots of things are shared resources.

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Speaker 2: If you're not allowed to do worldly things, it's almost

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Speaker 2: like you're living in the world, but you're in your

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Speaker 2: own little world. Does that mean people from the truth,

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Speaker 2: They're not nurses, they're not police officers, they're not members

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Speaker 2: of society. They're working in more private, kind of family

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Speaker 2: run businesses.

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Speaker 3: It does always surprise me how many there are working

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Speaker 3: in worldly professions, but they make a very deliberate effort

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Speaker 3: to stay separate. Right, So, there are teachers, and there

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Speaker 3: are nurses, and certainly for women, there's only very few

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Speaker 3: professions where women can really work outside the home because

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Speaker 3: they tend not to be able. I mean, our hair

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Speaker 3: is so weird, our clothing is so weird. We don't

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Speaker 3: have a lot of shared vocabulary with the world outside

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Speaker 3: of our community. We're a little bit creepy and freaky.

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Speaker 3: So it is quite hard for us to integrate, especially

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Speaker 3: women who look very different. Men can often mainstream they

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Speaker 3: wear demure clothes and suits and slacks and polo shirts.

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Speaker 3: But they can actually kind of mainstream a little bit

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Speaker 3: easier than women can. So a lot of women work

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Speaker 3: in jobs they can fit around their family commitments and

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Speaker 3: our church commitments. There are teachers and nurses. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: things like hairdressing is off limits. Things that bring us

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Speaker 3: into contact with too much worldliness is really off limits

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Speaker 3: for us.

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Speaker 2: I've got to ask, because you've used the term weird

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Speaker 2: to describe dress and hair, paint a picture for me.

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Speaker 2: What kind of things were you allowed to wear and

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Speaker 2: what did your hair look like back then?

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Speaker 3: Well, think of the Mormons in Utah. You're they're right,

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Speaker 3: except probably not quite as uniform. When I was growing up,

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Speaker 3: women liked more floral dresses. But certainly there is a

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Speaker 3: preoccupation with being modest. So this idea that you can't

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Speaker 3: show your neckline your shoulders. When I was growing up,

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Speaker 3: things like toe cleavage wear an issue. So you couldn't

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Speaker 3: wear sandals because toteviage.

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Speaker 2: Sorry toe cleavage, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Toe cleavage was seen as being immodest, and like dresses,

295
00:16:09,112 --> 00:16:11,792
Speaker 3: you know too long, we're seen as worldly. Too short

296
00:16:11,912 --> 00:16:14,072
Speaker 3: was seen as immodests. So there's this very like mid

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Speaker 3: calf length sort of everyone has this standard mid calf

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Speaker 3: length kind of dress. Trousers, as read in the Bible

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Speaker 3: are seen as man's clothing, and women are not allowed

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Speaker 3: to be men, so no trousers or no genes. Women

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Speaker 3: are not allowed to dress like men. And we're not

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Speaker 3: allowed to cut our hair. Certainly, by the time in

303
00:16:29,592 --> 00:16:31,712
Speaker 3: twelve or thirteen, mostly our hair is pulled back into

304
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Speaker 3: kind of a bun because to have it too flowy

305
00:16:34,552 --> 00:16:36,472
Speaker 3: and too showy is to be too worldly.

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Speaker 2: So were you homeschooled because of all of this or

307
00:16:40,752 --> 00:16:42,072
Speaker 2: were you in mainstream schools?

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Speaker 3: Most truth kids, in fact, all the ones I know of,

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00:16:45,432 --> 00:16:47,632
Speaker 3: go to mainstream schools. It is a bit like the

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Speaker 3: rest of our ideology, whereas we're in the world, not

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Speaker 3: of the world, so we're said to school, but we're

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Speaker 3: very much taught to be very careful about what we believe,

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Speaker 3: and in line with a lot of the secretive nature

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Speaker 3: of the group, we're not very open about our belief

315
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Speaker 3: systems with the schools and with the teachers, but we

316
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Speaker 3: are taught that things like dinosaurs are fake, and that

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Speaker 3: we we taught at school that are not real, and

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Speaker 3: we just have to sit there and we have to listen,

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Speaker 3: and then we go home and we pray for those

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Speaker 3: people to be converted and to understand that what they're

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Speaker 3: teaching is false. So we are sent to school, but

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Speaker 3: we are also taught that the things we're learning at

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Speaker 3: school are not true, and that we just have to

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Speaker 3: do it. Like lots of things, we have to do

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Speaker 3: it because to survive in the world until the world ends,

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Speaker 3: we need to participate in This.

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Speaker 2: Was that confusing as a child.

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Speaker 3: Horribly horribly, very isolating, and we weren't really allowed to

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Speaker 3: make friends with people at school because they were seen

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Speaker 3: as worldly, and we weren't really allowed to participate in

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Speaker 3: extracurricular activities or birthday parties or have close friendships with people.

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Speaker 3: So it was very lonely. And in fact, I often

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Speaker 3: think that being homeschool might be nicer, because then at

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Speaker 3: least we'd be with our I mean, I was lucky.

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Speaker 3: I came from a very large family. I had siblings

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Speaker 3: and I had cousins, and I had lots of other

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00:17:54,351 --> 00:17:57,391
Speaker 3: kids around me, lots of kids. I think, you know,

338
00:17:57,472 --> 00:17:59,831
Speaker 3: in smaller families or maybe one or two siblings. It

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00:17:59,831 --> 00:18:02,032
Speaker 3: can be very isolating to be a child from the truth.

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Speaker 2: How did your family find themselves as part of this group.

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Speaker 3: My family been in for a very long time. On

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Speaker 3: my maternal side, I am fifth generation, fourth generation born

343
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Speaker 3: inside I think my father's side, or on my paternal side,

344
00:18:17,472 --> 00:18:20,511
Speaker 3: i'm third generation. Wow, So my family has been in

345
00:18:20,512 --> 00:18:22,992
Speaker 3: a very long time, which further entrenches the issues which

346
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Speaker 3: I'm sure we'll touch on later about leaving. Because you

347
00:18:25,032 --> 00:18:27,871
Speaker 3: don't have any contacts outside the group. Everything you know,

348
00:18:28,032 --> 00:18:30,871
Speaker 3: everyone you know and love is inside the group. In

349
00:18:30,952 --> 00:18:33,911
Speaker 3: a nutshelle, I believe my family, which I think is common,

350
00:18:33,992 --> 00:18:36,431
Speaker 3: was preyed on because they were poor and because they

351
00:18:36,472 --> 00:18:39,831
Speaker 3: were rural, because they had experienced loss and trauma and poverty.

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00:18:40,591 --> 00:18:42,992
Speaker 3: They were preyed upon by people in the group and

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Speaker 3: love bomb, which is also something that happens with cultic

354
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Speaker 3: and high control groups. They love bomb people who are

355
00:18:48,831 --> 00:18:51,351
Speaker 3: going through periods of distress and who are finding it

356
00:18:51,391 --> 00:18:55,472
Speaker 3: difficult and not getting what they need, you know, through poverty,

357
00:18:55,631 --> 00:18:58,712
Speaker 3: through the social security system, through loss and grief and whatnot.

358
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Speaker 3: My family had been in a very long time.

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Speaker 2: Did you have a happy childhood.

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Speaker 3: That's the hardest part for me in reconciling my life

361
00:19:08,792 --> 00:19:11,111
Speaker 3: in general, is that in lots and lots of ways,

362
00:19:11,111 --> 00:19:13,672
Speaker 3: I had the most beautiful childhood. You know. I came

363
00:19:13,671 --> 00:19:16,591
Speaker 3: from a farm where I was given free reign to

364
00:19:16,671 --> 00:19:18,071
Speaker 3: be and to do, and there was no one to

365
00:19:18,111 --> 00:19:19,911
Speaker 3: judge me. But you know, I was riding motorbikes in

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Speaker 3: a dress and riding horses in a dress, and running

367
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Speaker 3: and jumping and skipping, and I had all these cousins

368
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Speaker 3: and a very big, close knit family. And I think

369
00:19:31,712 --> 00:19:34,232
Speaker 3: as a young child, I had a very idyllic life

370
00:19:34,311 --> 00:19:36,191
Speaker 3: until I sort of got to about eight, when I

371
00:19:36,272 --> 00:19:38,671
Speaker 3: really then had to start behaving more and more like

372
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Speaker 3: a truth girl. You know, I really had wonderful childhood,

373
00:19:42,512 --> 00:19:46,151
Speaker 3: very carefree, very practical. You know, I worked with my

374
00:19:46,311 --> 00:19:48,871
Speaker 3: father and my grandfather around the farm. From the earliest age.

375
00:19:48,871 --> 00:19:51,671
Speaker 3: I rode motorbikes. Being a girl from the truth didn't

376
00:19:51,712 --> 00:19:53,711
Speaker 3: hold me back until I was about eight, and then

377
00:19:53,752 --> 00:19:57,671
Speaker 3: I realized, oh, okay, there's a behavior that's expected of

378
00:19:57,792 --> 00:20:00,311
Speaker 3: me now. And that's really when things got very hard

379
00:20:00,351 --> 00:20:01,231
Speaker 3: pretty much from then on.

380
00:20:02,311 --> 00:20:04,351
Speaker 2: Was it also because you started to look around and

381
00:20:04,391 --> 00:20:06,871
Speaker 2: realize that other kids were doing things you weren't allowed

382
00:20:06,871 --> 00:20:08,951
Speaker 2: to do, or that perhaps boys were doing things that

383
00:20:08,992 --> 00:20:09,871
Speaker 2: you weren't allowed to do.

384
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Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent. So then I started looking around

385
00:20:12,871 --> 00:20:14,951
Speaker 3: and going, why don't I know anything about TV shows

386
00:20:14,952 --> 00:20:17,032
Speaker 3: like all the girls around me? Why don't I know

387
00:20:17,071 --> 00:20:20,111
Speaker 3: anything about pop music like all the other girls around me?

388
00:20:20,472 --> 00:20:22,871
Speaker 3: And you know, then you know, I started to essentially

389
00:20:22,911 --> 00:20:25,111
Speaker 3: be sexualized really by the truth, which is like, you know,

390
00:20:25,151 --> 00:20:26,792
Speaker 3: you can't run and jump like that in that dress.

391
00:20:26,831 --> 00:20:28,512
Speaker 3: You need to be sitting down and you're being modest,

392
00:20:28,631 --> 00:20:30,151
Speaker 3: or you'll never be able to get married. No one

393
00:20:30,151 --> 00:20:31,911
Speaker 3: will want to marry you, you know. And that was

394
00:20:31,952 --> 00:20:33,831
Speaker 3: a threat held over me pretty much from the age

395
00:20:33,831 --> 00:20:35,351
Speaker 3: of eight, that if you don't sit down and behave

396
00:20:35,391 --> 00:20:36,992
Speaker 3: and if you don't set a good example, no one's

397
00:20:37,032 --> 00:20:38,632
Speaker 3: going to want to marry the girls in our family

398
00:20:38,831 --> 00:20:40,071
Speaker 3: because you're a bad influence.

399
00:20:41,032 --> 00:20:43,272
Speaker 2: Was there an age you were expected to be married

400
00:20:43,552 --> 00:20:47,311
Speaker 2: by and was arranged marriage part of the truth.

401
00:20:48,111 --> 00:20:50,512
Speaker 3: The truth is a very small group of people, even

402
00:20:50,552 --> 00:20:52,831
Speaker 3: at its biggest when I was growing up, and so

403
00:20:53,431 --> 00:20:56,671
Speaker 3: marriage was something constantly talked about because to find somebody

404
00:20:56,671 --> 00:20:58,991
Speaker 3: to marry, which I think is common with fundamentalist groups

405
00:20:59,311 --> 00:21:01,551
Speaker 3: can be quite a problematic thing because, like we're all

406
00:21:01,552 --> 00:21:04,911
Speaker 3: related often and so you know, we're constantly on the

407
00:21:04,911 --> 00:21:06,511
Speaker 3: lookout for someone that might be able to marry our

408
00:21:06,631 --> 00:21:09,191
Speaker 3: daughters because they're not a second or third cousin. So

409
00:21:09,311 --> 00:21:11,591
Speaker 3: you know, it was always a topic of conversation. A

410
00:21:11,631 --> 00:21:13,911
Speaker 3: lot of my cousins married very young, or at least

411
00:21:14,151 --> 00:21:16,952
Speaker 3: met their spouse very young at you know, fourteen fifteen

412
00:21:16,952 --> 00:21:19,991
Speaker 3: and were married at sixteen seventeen eighteen. So you know,

413
00:21:20,151 --> 00:21:23,671
Speaker 3: while there was never an expectation said outright by either

414
00:21:23,712 --> 00:21:25,512
Speaker 3: of my parents that I would get married, that was

415
00:21:25,552 --> 00:21:27,712
Speaker 3: what was expected of me by our community and by

416
00:21:27,712 --> 00:21:31,231
Speaker 3: our family, and you know, I watched that happen around me,

417
00:21:31,871 --> 00:21:34,272
Speaker 3: you know, like it was just an expectation. I never

418
00:21:34,311 --> 00:21:36,391
Speaker 3: felt comfortable with it personally, and it wasn't ever what

419
00:21:36,512 --> 00:21:40,631
Speaker 3: I wanted, But also didn't really feel, certainly before the

420
00:21:40,631 --> 00:21:43,151
Speaker 3: age of about fourteen, that there were any choices. I thought,

421
00:21:43,151 --> 00:21:46,951
Speaker 3: that's just the way it had to be. And the

422
00:21:46,992 --> 00:21:48,992
Speaker 3: other thing is that the roles for women and girls

423
00:21:48,992 --> 00:21:52,231
Speaker 3: are so tightly defined you literally have no other job sometimes,

424
00:21:52,431 --> 00:21:54,831
Speaker 3: like what else are you going to do other than

425
00:21:54,871 --> 00:21:57,151
Speaker 3: get married and have babies, or you can go and

426
00:21:57,192 --> 00:22:00,071
Speaker 3: be a preacher, which we call a worker, and that

427
00:22:00,111 --> 00:22:02,231
Speaker 3: never appeared to me either. So I didn't want to

428
00:22:02,232 --> 00:22:04,232
Speaker 3: be a preacher or a worker, and I certainly didn't

429
00:22:04,232 --> 00:22:05,991
Speaker 3: want to get married and have children, which is really

430
00:22:06,071 --> 00:22:07,792
Speaker 3: old what led me out of the group.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to true crime Conversations Behind the Scenes of

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Speaker 2: Crime Special with me Jemma Bath. I'm speaking with Laura

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Speaker 2: McConnell about growing up in the fundamentalist religious cult The Truth.

434
00:22:25,792 --> 00:22:30,151
Speaker 2: Up next, Laura exposes the crimes she witnessed and experienced

435
00:22:30,272 --> 00:22:37,911
Speaker 2: during her time in the sect and how she eventually left.

436
00:22:40,792 --> 00:22:43,992
Speaker 2: What did marriage in the Truth look like? I guess

437
00:22:43,992 --> 00:22:46,511
Speaker 2: this is the point where we start to touch on

438
00:22:47,032 --> 00:22:50,511
Speaker 2: a bit more of the crime aspect of the truth,

439
00:22:50,871 --> 00:22:55,431
Speaker 2: because domestic violence was that an accepted part of marriage.

440
00:22:56,391 --> 00:22:58,191
Speaker 3: I think it's not even just marriage. I think all

441
00:22:58,272 --> 00:23:02,711
Speaker 3: of our families are violent, coercive, abusive places. And that

442
00:23:02,831 --> 00:23:05,032
Speaker 3: hurts me to say, because they come from that community

443
00:23:05,071 --> 00:23:07,272
Speaker 3: and that is my culture. But I come from a

444
00:23:07,311 --> 00:23:10,912
Speaker 3: culture of embedded violence. I come from a culture of

445
00:23:11,631 --> 00:23:16,471
Speaker 3: endemic sexual abuse. In endemic coercive control, endemic spiritual abuse,

446
00:23:17,032 --> 00:23:20,831
Speaker 3: people abuse their children physically. I think that has gotten better.

447
00:23:21,032 --> 00:23:24,111
Speaker 3: But you know, growing up, all of us would smack

448
00:23:24,151 --> 00:23:27,872
Speaker 3: our dolls constantly because that's what we saw happening around us.

449
00:23:28,111 --> 00:23:33,032
Speaker 3: Kids around us were smacked constantly. There's just sexual violence

450
00:23:33,472 --> 00:23:37,071
Speaker 3: and grooming and abuse was just endemic. And it wasn't

451
00:23:37,111 --> 00:23:39,871
Speaker 3: just in marriages. It was within family groups. It was

452
00:23:39,911 --> 00:23:43,792
Speaker 3: our preachers or workers grooming and abusing girls. Sometimes boys,

453
00:23:43,831 --> 00:23:47,591
Speaker 3: but in my experience, a lot of girls. And you know,

454
00:23:47,671 --> 00:23:50,991
Speaker 3: our distrust of the world outside allowed that behavior and

455
00:23:51,071 --> 00:23:53,511
Speaker 3: still allows that behavior to flourish because we do not

456
00:23:53,631 --> 00:23:57,032
Speaker 3: trust even as leavers, we do not trust authority because

457
00:23:57,032 --> 00:23:59,792
Speaker 3: we're taught to fear the outside world. There's also no

458
00:23:59,871 --> 00:24:03,351
Speaker 3: structures inside the group to enable us to report it anywhere.

459
00:24:03,431 --> 00:24:06,912
Speaker 3: We have no registered clergy, we have no registered organization,

460
00:24:07,671 --> 00:24:11,512
Speaker 3: we have no employee processes to talk about clergy who

461
00:24:11,512 --> 00:24:15,991
Speaker 3: are abusive. So the group itself, it's not only just

462
00:24:16,591 --> 00:24:20,911
Speaker 3: spousal violence, it's violence across the board in terms of abuse.

463
00:24:22,472 --> 00:24:25,471
Speaker 2: What did you know about sex? Was that something that

464
00:24:25,631 --> 00:24:28,311
Speaker 2: was taught to you? Because I can imagine when you

465
00:24:28,992 --> 00:24:31,112
Speaker 2: go into a marriage as a young woman and you're

466
00:24:31,151 --> 00:24:33,671
Speaker 2: expected to have sex. Were you taught that you were

467
00:24:33,712 --> 00:24:35,792
Speaker 2: allowed to say no, for instance, or.

468
00:24:36,151 --> 00:24:39,431
Speaker 3: We have no concept of sexual education and absolutely no

469
00:24:39,512 --> 00:24:43,712
Speaker 3: concept of consent. Roles for women and girls are very

470
00:24:43,792 --> 00:24:46,911
Speaker 3: clearly defined, and to step outside of them results in

471
00:24:46,952 --> 00:24:49,911
Speaker 3: back lagin, results in more violence in different ways. You know,

472
00:24:50,032 --> 00:24:53,711
Speaker 3: you have spiritual violence of Bible versus being used to

473
00:24:53,911 --> 00:24:57,871
Speaker 3: coerce you, of you being called bitter or being called immodest,

474
00:24:57,911 --> 00:24:59,952
Speaker 3: or being told that you have a bad spirit for

475
00:25:00,192 --> 00:25:04,231
Speaker 3: raising issues. You know, and that's not just family violence,

476
00:25:04,272 --> 00:25:06,831
Speaker 3: that's all kinds of issues. As a woman girl, your

477
00:25:06,911 --> 00:25:09,672
Speaker 3: role is to be subservient. Your role is to follow

478
00:25:10,351 --> 00:25:13,111
Speaker 3: what you've been told and towards the interpretation of the Bible,

479
00:25:13,111 --> 00:25:15,951
Speaker 3: and not to ask too many questions. I was very lucky,

480
00:25:16,071 --> 00:25:18,272
Speaker 3: I think, in that I came from a farming background,

481
00:25:18,512 --> 00:25:21,472
Speaker 3: I knew what sex was. I knew a lot more

482
00:25:21,512 --> 00:25:23,311
Speaker 3: than a lot of other kids around me because of

483
00:25:23,391 --> 00:25:27,591
Speaker 3: the family I came from. My own parents also were

484
00:25:27,631 --> 00:25:31,711
Speaker 3: not probably as conservative around sexuality and sex as a

485
00:25:31,752 --> 00:25:34,591
Speaker 3: lot of other parents around me. So you know, in

486
00:25:34,631 --> 00:25:36,831
Speaker 3: lots of ways, I was lucky. But no, we are

487
00:25:36,871 --> 00:25:39,351
Speaker 3: taken out of things like sex education. We are not

488
00:25:39,431 --> 00:25:43,311
Speaker 3: allowed to do things like learn about dancing about music,

489
00:25:43,351 --> 00:25:45,192
Speaker 3: about dinosaurs. You know, like the list of things were

490
00:25:45,232 --> 00:25:46,831
Speaker 3: not allowed to know about it is never ending.

491
00:25:48,151 --> 00:25:51,632
Speaker 2: You've mentioned grooming or like childhood sexual abuse. What can

492
00:25:51,671 --> 00:25:54,831
Speaker 2: you tell me about how that kind of emerged in

493
00:25:54,871 --> 00:25:57,791
Speaker 2: the communities in Australia. I know that there was a

494
00:25:57,831 --> 00:26:00,551
Speaker 2: more high profile case that actually made the news with

495
00:26:00,631 --> 00:26:02,391
Speaker 2: two preachers from your own community.

496
00:26:03,752 --> 00:26:06,191
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we have a very very big entrenched problem

497
00:26:06,552 --> 00:26:10,951
Speaker 3: preachers or our workers being perpetrators of abuse, of abusing power.

498
00:26:11,272 --> 00:26:14,272
Speaker 3: And then they are not only perpetrating sexual abuse, they're

499
00:26:14,272 --> 00:26:18,512
Speaker 3: also porptrating spiritual abuse by controlling people and controlling how

500
00:26:19,192 --> 00:26:22,992
Speaker 3: people report abuses to authorities. And as I mentioned earlier,

501
00:26:23,032 --> 00:26:24,791
Speaker 3: there is quite an awakening happening in the US at

502
00:26:24,792 --> 00:26:27,351
Speaker 3: the moment about exactly how bad the issue is of

503
00:26:27,431 --> 00:26:31,351
Speaker 3: our workers being involved in sexual abuse and CSA or

504
00:26:31,431 --> 00:26:34,631
Speaker 3: childhood sexual abuse. I think there is just a massive

505
00:26:34,631 --> 00:26:37,992
Speaker 3: misuse of power. These people are not trained. They offer

506
00:26:38,032 --> 00:26:40,351
Speaker 3: themselves to be preachers. They don't go through a formal training.

507
00:26:40,512 --> 00:26:43,711
Speaker 3: They often just shadow an older preacher or worker for

508
00:26:43,752 --> 00:26:46,831
Speaker 3: a time and that's how they learn behavior. They're in

509
00:26:46,871 --> 00:26:49,391
Speaker 3: an environment where they think that women and girls are

510
00:26:49,391 --> 00:26:51,672
Speaker 3: subservient to them and that they have control over them.

511
00:26:51,712 --> 00:26:54,111
Speaker 3: And so, yeah, we have a very endemic issue of

512
00:26:54,192 --> 00:26:57,631
Speaker 3: men in our community, not just workers, but also senior men,

513
00:26:57,911 --> 00:27:02,871
Speaker 3: elders in families being abusers of generations and generations and

514
00:27:02,911 --> 00:27:05,071
Speaker 3: then teaching the men under them and around them how

515
00:27:05,151 --> 00:27:08,831
Speaker 3: to be abuses. That's the reality. It's endemic. And you know,

516
00:27:08,871 --> 00:27:11,311
Speaker 3: I've been screaming quite loudly about how bad it's been

517
00:27:11,391 --> 00:27:15,111
Speaker 3: for you know, eight odd years, and been shut down

518
00:27:15,192 --> 00:27:18,151
Speaker 3: a lot by my own community as well as the

519
00:27:18,272 --> 00:27:20,311
Speaker 3: leave of community in lots of ways, because people don't

520
00:27:20,311 --> 00:27:22,352
Speaker 3: want to talk about how bad it is. But there

521
00:27:22,391 --> 00:27:23,951
Speaker 3: is a lot of us who were abused by our

522
00:27:23,952 --> 00:27:27,512
Speaker 3: preachers or workers, and not only abused, but also observed abuse.

523
00:27:27,591 --> 00:27:29,791
Speaker 3: Because the reality is that children in groups we know

524
00:27:29,831 --> 00:27:33,111
Speaker 3: we saw other children experiencing and being roomed as well.

525
00:27:33,272 --> 00:27:34,111
Speaker 3: That's the reality.

526
00:27:34,671 --> 00:27:39,272
Speaker 2: So this is something that happened to you personally? Yeah, correct,

527
00:27:39,911 --> 00:27:41,712
Speaker 2: how have you grappled with that?

528
00:27:41,871 --> 00:27:42,032
Speaker 4: Now?

529
00:27:42,071 --> 00:27:44,272
Speaker 2: As an adult looking back that experience.

530
00:27:45,512 --> 00:27:47,471
Speaker 3: For me, it's very hard because I often feel a

531
00:27:47,472 --> 00:27:51,232
Speaker 3: lot of survivor guilt because I grew up understanding a

532
00:27:51,272 --> 00:27:53,552
Speaker 3: lot about sex and I also then went on to

533
00:27:53,671 --> 00:27:56,991
Speaker 3: study at university and to work in areas involving family violence.

534
00:27:57,431 --> 00:27:59,552
Speaker 3: I always thought that I got off pretty lucky because

535
00:27:59,552 --> 00:28:02,512
Speaker 3: I wasn't raped. I felt like one of the luckiest

536
00:28:02,552 --> 00:28:05,591
Speaker 3: people in my family because there were so many people

537
00:28:05,631 --> 00:28:09,351
Speaker 3: in my family in particular, who were abused to experienced abuse.

538
00:28:09,391 --> 00:28:12,071
Speaker 3: I just felt like the luckiest kid going around. And

539
00:28:12,111 --> 00:28:14,351
Speaker 3: then in the last few years, I had this realization that, like,

540
00:28:14,671 --> 00:28:18,591
Speaker 3: I can probably need two hands to count the number

541
00:28:18,591 --> 00:28:21,272
Speaker 3: of times where I was groomed and where I was

542
00:28:21,272 --> 00:28:25,032
Speaker 3: sexually assaulted, where I was put in situations where senior

543
00:28:25,071 --> 00:28:27,911
Speaker 3: men were touching me, where senior men were putting their

544
00:28:27,952 --> 00:28:30,712
Speaker 3: hands places I did not want their hands, or having

545
00:28:31,071 --> 00:28:35,711
Speaker 3: sexualized conversations with me, were exhibiting sexualized behavior like rubbing

546
00:28:35,752 --> 00:28:37,631
Speaker 3: themselves against me. And all of a sudden, I have

547
00:28:37,712 --> 00:28:40,872
Speaker 3: this realization. In the last couple of years, Laurie, you

548
00:28:40,872 --> 00:28:43,872
Speaker 3: were sexually abused. You were like, you might not have

549
00:28:43,872 --> 00:28:45,912
Speaker 3: been raped, but that's fucking abuse.

550
00:28:46,072 --> 00:28:46,312
Speaker 1: It is.

551
00:28:46,352 --> 00:28:49,312
Speaker 3: And not only that, I saw that same behavior happening

552
00:28:49,392 --> 00:28:52,751
Speaker 3: on my cousins, on other people around me. So not

553
00:28:52,792 --> 00:28:55,352
Speaker 3: only did I experience it, but I also realized how

554
00:28:55,431 --> 00:28:57,672
Speaker 3: much of it I'd seen and it was so endemic

555
00:28:57,952 --> 00:29:00,872
Speaker 3: and so normalized that we didn't think it was abuse.

556
00:29:01,472 --> 00:29:03,951
Speaker 2: How old were you do you remember that kind of

557
00:29:03,952 --> 00:29:06,272
Speaker 2: stuff starting or can you not remember when it started?

558
00:29:06,911 --> 00:29:10,392
Speaker 3: I can't remember when. My earliest instance is around eleven, right,

559
00:29:11,112 --> 00:29:12,872
Speaker 3: I mean, you know that's the reality. It's like it

560
00:29:12,911 --> 00:29:15,152
Speaker 3: probably didn't start then. It's just probably the first time

561
00:29:15,192 --> 00:29:15,792
Speaker 3: I realized what.

562
00:29:15,832 --> 00:29:20,632
Speaker 2: It was, which is terrifying that these kids don't even realize.

563
00:29:21,392 --> 00:29:23,552
Speaker 3: No, And I'm also up against that when it comes

564
00:29:23,592 --> 00:29:25,712
Speaker 3: to raising awareness. You know, That's also why I get

565
00:29:25,712 --> 00:29:27,711
Speaker 3: so much pushback because people are like, why is she

566
00:29:27,752 --> 00:29:29,752
Speaker 3: making so much noise about this? Like we weren't raped,

567
00:29:29,911 --> 00:29:33,152
Speaker 3: It's not that bad. Like, Okay, I think maybe most

568
00:29:33,152 --> 00:29:35,231
Speaker 3: of you haven't really clicked about what abuse is.

569
00:29:36,072 --> 00:29:38,512
Speaker 2: So these two workers from your own community, what were

570
00:29:38,552 --> 00:29:41,031
Speaker 2: they accused of doing and what happened to them? Are

571
00:29:41,032 --> 00:29:41,671
Speaker 2: they in jail?

572
00:29:42,552 --> 00:29:42,712
Speaker 4: Yeah?

573
00:29:42,792 --> 00:29:45,392
Speaker 3: So Chris Chandler and Ernie Barry two men that I

574
00:29:45,392 --> 00:29:48,191
Speaker 3: came across. Actually, they came to my community when I

575
00:29:48,232 --> 00:29:51,431
Speaker 3: was around thirteen or fourteen, and yeah, one of them

576
00:29:51,552 --> 00:29:55,951
Speaker 3: was involved in allegedly sexually assaulting me. Let's just go

577
00:29:56,032 --> 00:29:59,112
Speaker 3: with allegedly. Both those men are dead, so it's a

578
00:29:59,112 --> 00:30:01,032
Speaker 3: little easier for me to have this conversation and to

579
00:30:01,072 --> 00:30:03,312
Speaker 3: be a little more transparent about the things that have happened.

580
00:30:03,352 --> 00:30:06,791
Speaker 3: But both of those men were found guilty, and actually

581
00:30:06,872 --> 00:30:08,751
Speaker 3: there are far more victims of those men than have

582
00:30:08,792 --> 00:30:11,632
Speaker 3: actually ever made it to court because of the way

583
00:30:11,671 --> 00:30:14,791
Speaker 3: the community really just most of us are just so

584
00:30:14,952 --> 00:30:18,072
Speaker 3: terrified of the legal system, and in lots of ways

585
00:30:18,112 --> 00:30:20,272
Speaker 3: we have a right to be because our experiences don't

586
00:30:20,312 --> 00:30:23,552
Speaker 3: fit neatly into a mainstream legal system. You know, it's

587
00:30:23,552 --> 00:30:25,592
Speaker 3: pretty hard to take a group with no name to court,

588
00:30:25,712 --> 00:30:28,112
Speaker 3: and preachers who don't have an employment record and can

589
00:30:28,152 --> 00:30:29,991
Speaker 3: say that they're not preachers of anything, because that's what

590
00:30:29,992 --> 00:30:33,112
Speaker 3: we're up against, right Like I think Chris did spend

591
00:30:33,152 --> 00:30:35,272
Speaker 3: some time in jail, I don't think that any Barry

592
00:30:35,312 --> 00:30:38,112
Speaker 3: did spend any time in jail. They were both found guilty,

593
00:30:38,312 --> 00:30:40,832
Speaker 3: but again, the number of cases that could have been

594
00:30:40,952 --> 00:30:44,191
Speaker 3: brought against them is nowhere near the number they were

595
00:30:44,192 --> 00:30:47,471
Speaker 3: found guilty of. Because people in our community are just

596
00:30:47,512 --> 00:30:51,552
Speaker 3: too terrified to speak up comes with extreme consequences. Often,

597
00:30:51,592 --> 00:30:54,032
Speaker 3: you know your own family will disown you, often shun you.

598
00:30:54,152 --> 00:30:56,271
Speaker 3: People in your community across the street to avoid you.

599
00:30:56,671 --> 00:30:59,352
Speaker 3: People will undermine you. You are left with nothing. You

600
00:30:59,392 --> 00:31:02,392
Speaker 3: are left with no money and no home and no family.

601
00:31:03,072 --> 00:31:06,191
Speaker 3: So yeah, while those two were found guilty, they were

602
00:31:06,192 --> 00:31:09,392
Speaker 3: not felt guilty by nearly as many cases as they

603
00:31:09,392 --> 00:31:12,152
Speaker 3: should have been. I think Chris spent a small amount

604
00:31:12,152 --> 00:31:14,032
Speaker 3: of time in jail, but not nearly long enough. And

605
00:31:14,072 --> 00:31:16,352
Speaker 3: I don't think only spent any time in jail if

606
00:31:16,352 --> 00:31:17,592
Speaker 3: my recollection is correct.

607
00:31:18,911 --> 00:31:21,232
Speaker 2: What can you tell us about the death of two

608
00:31:21,312 --> 00:31:24,592
Speaker 2: teenagers in the nineties that once again you knew about

609
00:31:24,832 --> 00:31:27,592
Speaker 2: or you'd been told about. But what were you told

610
00:31:27,632 --> 00:31:29,752
Speaker 2: about them growing up on? What happened to them?

611
00:31:30,232 --> 00:31:32,392
Speaker 3: And that realin Stephen Henderson died when I was I

612
00:31:32,431 --> 00:31:36,632
Speaker 3: think twelve maybe thirteen, and their's is a very sad story.

613
00:31:36,872 --> 00:31:40,352
Speaker 3: They suicided out near Kinglake in Victoria, and they wrote

614
00:31:40,392 --> 00:31:42,672
Speaker 3: a note or at liszt Norelle did, saying that they

615
00:31:42,792 --> 00:31:45,032
Speaker 3: didn't want to attend our church anymore and they didn't

616
00:31:45,032 --> 00:31:46,711
Speaker 3: feel they had any choice but to attend, and they

617
00:31:46,752 --> 00:31:49,792
Speaker 3: were being forced to attend. Those details were very much

618
00:31:49,872 --> 00:31:52,431
Speaker 3: kept from certainly the children in the community, but I

619
00:31:52,552 --> 00:31:55,312
Speaker 3: suspect also the adults, and we were told that they

620
00:31:55,312 --> 00:31:58,192
Speaker 3: died because they had listened to Nirvana and they had

621
00:31:58,272 --> 00:32:02,392
Speaker 3: had too much worldly influence. Yeah, you know, and we

622
00:32:02,552 --> 00:32:05,552
Speaker 3: believed that, like we believe that these poor kids had

623
00:32:05,632 --> 00:32:10,552
Speaker 3: died because of Nirvana, not because actually they had tried

624
00:32:10,552 --> 00:32:12,711
Speaker 3: to say to their mother that they didn't want to

625
00:32:12,712 --> 00:32:15,352
Speaker 3: attend the church anymore, and that they had been forced

626
00:32:15,392 --> 00:32:18,431
Speaker 3: to attend. It wasn't until many many years later, like

627
00:32:18,671 --> 00:32:21,592
Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe eight or nine years later, that

628
00:32:21,671 --> 00:32:25,232
Speaker 3: I realized and looked up in the newspaper actually and went, oh,

629
00:32:25,272 --> 00:32:28,991
Speaker 3: my god, they didn't die because of Nirvana, which just

630
00:32:29,032 --> 00:32:32,352
Speaker 3: seems like lunicrous now. But you know, often people inside

631
00:32:32,392 --> 00:32:34,432
Speaker 3: these groups live in an alternate reality. Like we drip

632
00:32:34,472 --> 00:32:38,112
Speaker 3: fed information. We're told information from a very specific viewpoint,

633
00:32:38,712 --> 00:32:41,671
Speaker 3: and we're not told the truth about things. Everything was distorted,

634
00:32:41,752 --> 00:32:44,112
Speaker 3: you know, and even the Ernie Barrier Chris Chandler stuff,

635
00:32:44,112 --> 00:32:46,392
Speaker 3: you know, when I was growing up and Chris and Ernie,

636
00:32:46,431 --> 00:32:48,592
Speaker 3: the conversation started to happen about the fact that they

637
00:32:48,592 --> 00:32:50,471
Speaker 3: had been charged. You know, we were told that the

638
00:32:50,512 --> 00:32:53,231
Speaker 3: people who charged them, you know, were bitter people, they

639
00:32:53,232 --> 00:32:56,232
Speaker 3: were people with very bad mental health issues. And we

640
00:32:56,232 --> 00:32:59,031
Speaker 3: were lied to about why these cases were brought about,

641
00:32:59,152 --> 00:33:01,472
Speaker 3: like people have just not told the truth about these

642
00:33:01,512 --> 00:33:02,312
Speaker 3: criminal cases.

643
00:33:03,592 --> 00:33:07,991
Speaker 2: Obviously we've just touched on a few cases. But are

644
00:33:08,032 --> 00:33:12,712
Speaker 2: these crimes or alleged crimes that are being repeated over

645
00:33:12,752 --> 00:33:14,592
Speaker 2: and over and over again in communities not just here

646
00:33:14,632 --> 00:33:17,552
Speaker 2: but throughout the whole world that you can see.

647
00:33:17,671 --> 00:33:19,392
Speaker 3: Around the world, And let me tell you, it is

648
00:33:19,512 --> 00:33:23,632
Speaker 3: worse in countries like Vietnam and Malaysia and where families

649
00:33:23,671 --> 00:33:25,392
Speaker 3: are poor. And I mean we touched on this earlier

650
00:33:25,431 --> 00:33:27,632
Speaker 3: about my own family coming into the group. The people

651
00:33:27,632 --> 00:33:29,711
Speaker 3: who come into the group now are from countries like

652
00:33:29,752 --> 00:33:35,272
Speaker 3: Brazil and Venezuela and Uruguay and Vietnam, and they're from

653
00:33:35,272 --> 00:33:38,592
Speaker 3: places where there is entrenched poverty. And they're sending workers

654
00:33:38,632 --> 00:33:41,512
Speaker 3: or preachers from countries like Australia who have backgrounds as

655
00:33:41,592 --> 00:33:45,872
Speaker 3: predators into those environments where I have absolutely no doubt.

656
00:33:45,952 --> 00:33:47,072
Speaker 2: In fact, I have a lot of.

657
00:33:46,992 --> 00:33:50,392
Speaker 3: Emails to suggest that these people are being preyed upon

658
00:33:50,632 --> 00:33:53,592
Speaker 3: by our workers or by the Truth's workers in these countries.

659
00:33:54,752 --> 00:33:57,511
Speaker 2: You mentioned before that things are starting to explode overseas.

660
00:33:57,992 --> 00:33:59,911
Speaker 2: What did you mean by that? Are things starting to

661
00:33:59,952 --> 00:34:00,792
Speaker 2: come out well?

662
00:34:01,072 --> 00:34:03,992
Speaker 3: I think in the US and Canada, in particular, there

663
00:34:04,072 --> 00:34:06,471
Speaker 3: was a preacher who died in a hotel room. In

664
00:34:06,512 --> 00:34:09,551
Speaker 3: itself is very odd because we tend from the truth

665
00:34:09,632 --> 00:34:11,872
Speaker 3: not to go into hotel rooms as preachers. We stay

666
00:34:11,872 --> 00:34:14,511
Speaker 3: in people's homes, which is also a problem because that's

667
00:34:14,511 --> 00:34:17,472
Speaker 3: where abuses are happening, because preachers are staying in our homes.

668
00:34:18,031 --> 00:34:19,991
Speaker 3: So he died in a hotel and there was some

669
00:34:20,031 --> 00:34:22,552
Speaker 3: incriminating evidence found on a laptop, and all of a sudden,

670
00:34:22,991 --> 00:34:25,872
Speaker 3: some stuff got shared online in some Facebook group, in

671
00:34:25,872 --> 00:34:27,832
Speaker 3: a Facebook group, and lots and lots of people in

672
00:34:27,872 --> 00:34:30,911
Speaker 3: America studge to ask questions about, well, how many predators

673
00:34:30,951 --> 00:34:33,111
Speaker 3: are there? Do we have a register? We don't have

674
00:34:33,232 --> 00:34:35,352
Speaker 3: a registered organization, so how do we have a register

675
00:34:35,392 --> 00:34:37,472
Speaker 3: of predators in the group? And it suddenly became obvious

676
00:34:37,551 --> 00:34:40,471
Speaker 3: we don't. And you know, there's all these predators just

677
00:34:40,551 --> 00:34:43,112
Speaker 3: roaming around in our families and communities and in our clergy.

678
00:34:43,632 --> 00:34:45,592
Speaker 3: And so people are asking questions and they're not getting

679
00:34:45,632 --> 00:34:48,592
Speaker 3: answers because, as we touched on before, the controlling nature

680
00:34:48,592 --> 00:34:50,991
Speaker 3: of what gets drip fed in means that nobody ever

681
00:34:51,031 --> 00:34:52,992
Speaker 3: gets questions answered in a way that is honest.

682
00:34:53,632 --> 00:34:56,912
Speaker 2: And I guess it's hard because the police can't really

683
00:34:57,312 --> 00:35:00,392
Speaker 2: charge anyone, or question anyone, or prosecute anyone unless people

684
00:35:00,431 --> 00:35:02,752
Speaker 2: are willing to share what happened.

685
00:35:03,632 --> 00:35:06,151
Speaker 3: Correct And you know in my own circumstances I have

686
00:35:06,592 --> 00:35:08,191
Speaker 3: in the past, and in fact I have a case

687
00:35:08,312 --> 00:35:10,951
Speaker 3: live at the moment to try and get a case

688
00:35:11,031 --> 00:35:13,832
Speaker 3: up against somebody. But unless you have people in your

689
00:35:13,832 --> 00:35:16,471
Speaker 3: community who are willing to corroborate your story, you have

690
00:35:16,551 --> 00:35:19,592
Speaker 3: absolutely no evidence. And when you come from a community

691
00:35:19,592 --> 00:35:21,872
Speaker 3: who is entirely secretive and who is more likely to

692
00:35:21,951 --> 00:35:24,712
Speaker 3: undermine you than they are to corroborate your story, the

693
00:35:24,792 --> 00:35:27,312
Speaker 3: chances of getting like a legal case up are even

694
00:35:27,551 --> 00:35:30,671
Speaker 3: slimmer than they are for mainstream people. And it's hard

695
00:35:30,712 --> 00:35:33,872
Speaker 3: for mainstream survivors, let alone people from a secretive community

696
00:35:33,951 --> 00:35:34,792
Speaker 3: like ours.

697
00:35:35,551 --> 00:35:37,872
Speaker 2: I've heard you describe the group as putting a lot

698
00:35:37,872 --> 00:35:42,232
Speaker 2: of emphasis on suffering. Can you describe that to me

699
00:35:42,592 --> 00:35:45,272
Speaker 2: a bit more? And I'm also particularly interested in it

700
00:35:45,312 --> 00:35:49,352
Speaker 2: because I feel like what we've been talking about reporting

701
00:35:49,431 --> 00:35:52,071
Speaker 2: crimes that would stop you from wanting to do that too.

702
00:35:53,312 --> 00:35:55,232
Speaker 3: I talk a lot about the suffering and a lot

703
00:35:55,272 --> 00:35:57,632
Speaker 3: about how I left because I couldn't stand the suffering

704
00:35:58,031 --> 00:36:00,551
Speaker 3: you know, like, I have a fairly vibrant, outgoing personality,

705
00:36:00,592 --> 00:36:04,512
Speaker 3: and the suffering just did me in. The reality is this, right,

706
00:36:04,792 --> 00:36:08,232
Speaker 3: is that life inside fundamentals and life inside Celtic groups

707
00:36:08,312 --> 00:36:11,471
Speaker 3: is actually pretty shit, especially for women and girls and

708
00:36:11,471 --> 00:36:14,151
Speaker 3: for people outside being a white man. Right, if you're

709
00:36:14,192 --> 00:36:16,111
Speaker 3: a white man, it's a bloody nice place to live.

710
00:36:16,392 --> 00:36:18,911
Speaker 3: Everything's controlled, You've got a lot of power, you to

711
00:36:18,991 --> 00:36:21,271
Speaker 3: wave it around and get people to do what you want.

712
00:36:21,672 --> 00:36:23,471
Speaker 3: But if you're not a nice white man in a

713
00:36:23,471 --> 00:36:26,471
Speaker 3: fundamental scroup, it's actually a really hard life. And so

714
00:36:26,752 --> 00:36:30,352
Speaker 3: to counteract that, you believe that all of this suffering,

715
00:36:30,392 --> 00:36:33,991
Speaker 3: that you're going through this looking different, this feeling like

716
00:36:34,192 --> 00:36:37,352
Speaker 3: you are an outsider all the time because you don't

717
00:36:37,431 --> 00:36:39,911
Speaker 3: look and sound and speak and have any kind of

718
00:36:40,312 --> 00:36:44,111
Speaker 3: comprehension of the world outside your home, it's because you're

719
00:36:44,152 --> 00:36:46,151
Speaker 3: going to heaven and everyone else is going to hell,

720
00:36:46,352 --> 00:36:49,192
Speaker 3: and so you're suffering your way into heaven. I just

721
00:36:49,232 --> 00:36:51,111
Speaker 3: need to suffer, and I just need to tolerate this,

722
00:36:51,192 --> 00:36:53,592
Speaker 3: and I just need to put up with this because

723
00:36:53,872 --> 00:36:56,872
Speaker 3: I'm going to heaven. If I don't, I'm going to hell.

724
00:36:57,152 --> 00:36:59,631
Speaker 3: Like there's my alternatives, right, I've got to put up

725
00:36:59,632 --> 00:37:02,712
Speaker 3: with this because in the end, my reward is in heaven.

726
00:37:03,272 --> 00:37:05,991
Speaker 3: And you just have this horrible mentality of people thinking

727
00:37:05,991 --> 00:37:08,272
Speaker 3: they have to put up with horrible mental health issues,

728
00:37:08,272 --> 00:37:09,752
Speaker 3: they have to put up with abuse, they have to

729
00:37:09,792 --> 00:37:14,111
Speaker 3: put up with families that are controlling, because the alternative

730
00:37:14,192 --> 00:37:15,272
Speaker 3: is that you're going to help.

731
00:37:15,911 --> 00:37:19,911
Speaker 2: It feels like a way to explain away crimes against themselves.

732
00:37:19,991 --> 00:37:23,952
Speaker 3: It is bypassing is spiritual. Bypassing, right, we are using

733
00:37:23,991 --> 00:37:29,191
Speaker 3: the Bible to basically enable abuse and control by men.

734
00:37:29,312 --> 00:37:43,951
Speaker 4: At the end of the day, let's.

735
00:37:43,752 --> 00:37:46,991
Speaker 2: Talk about you getting out. Did it start with education?

736
00:37:47,352 --> 00:37:49,952
Speaker 2: I know that you went to Uni? Was that normal?

737
00:37:50,951 --> 00:37:53,631
Speaker 3: In theory it started with me going to university, But

738
00:37:53,672 --> 00:37:55,431
Speaker 3: I think it goes back much further than that. It

739
00:37:55,471 --> 00:37:59,071
Speaker 3: goes back with me never being comfortable with my gender

740
00:37:59,112 --> 00:38:01,872
Speaker 3: and sexuality role within the group, never feeling like I

741
00:38:01,911 --> 00:38:04,272
Speaker 3: was looking around and thinking I fit in here. I

742
00:38:04,392 --> 00:38:05,991
Speaker 3: just never fit, you know. And if i'd been a boy,

743
00:38:06,152 --> 00:38:08,231
Speaker 3: I used to just wish I was a boy. From

744
00:38:08,312 --> 00:38:09,792
Speaker 3: like eight or nine years old, I used to think

745
00:38:09,792 --> 00:38:12,031
Speaker 3: I just wish I was a boy. I wish I

746
00:38:12,031 --> 00:38:14,591
Speaker 3: could just live like they do. And that's really where

747
00:38:14,592 --> 00:38:16,951
Speaker 3: it started is I just never fitted in quite like

748
00:38:16,991 --> 00:38:18,872
Speaker 3: I should have. I didn't want to get married and

749
00:38:19,112 --> 00:38:22,672
Speaker 3: just have children and be what the other women around

750
00:38:22,672 --> 00:38:25,111
Speaker 3: me and girls around me had been. I certainly didn't

751
00:38:25,152 --> 00:38:27,152
Speaker 3: want to become a worker, and so it was like, well,

752
00:38:27,192 --> 00:38:29,712
Speaker 3: what are my options? You know, my own mother had

753
00:38:29,712 --> 00:38:32,191
Speaker 3: been to university, but she'd made a choice to leave

754
00:38:32,232 --> 00:38:34,352
Speaker 3: and have children, and then she did go back again

755
00:38:34,392 --> 00:38:36,752
Speaker 3: and become a teacher, and so she did set a

756
00:38:36,792 --> 00:38:39,232
Speaker 3: good example for me. But she was very much in

757
00:38:39,272 --> 00:38:40,911
Speaker 3: the world, but not of the world. She was very

758
00:38:40,991 --> 00:38:43,912
Speaker 3: controlled in her interactions with her colleagues. She kept herself

759
00:38:44,072 --> 00:38:46,352
Speaker 3: very separate, and she didn't have a life outside the

760
00:38:46,352 --> 00:38:47,832
Speaker 3: home except to turn up to work and then come

761
00:38:47,832 --> 00:38:50,592
Speaker 3: home again. And I didn't want that life. I wanted friends.

762
00:38:50,672 --> 00:38:54,031
Speaker 3: I wanted to experience things. I was a curious kid

763
00:38:54,072 --> 00:38:57,352
Speaker 3: who wanted to make friends outside our family and community.

764
00:38:57,392 --> 00:38:59,071
Speaker 3: And really I had no option at the end of

765
00:38:59,112 --> 00:39:01,071
Speaker 3: the day, what was I going to do? Like, I

766
00:39:01,112 --> 00:39:04,192
Speaker 3: didn't have options? And so yeah, I really just nutted

767
00:39:04,232 --> 00:39:06,512
Speaker 3: down in my last couple of years of school and thought, well,

768
00:39:06,712 --> 00:39:08,272
Speaker 3: if I can get some decent grades, maybe I can

769
00:39:08,312 --> 00:39:11,031
Speaker 3: get out of this community, maybe I can go. So yeah,

770
00:39:11,072 --> 00:39:13,312
Speaker 3: in theory university's what got me out. But you've started

771
00:39:13,392 --> 00:39:14,232
Speaker 3: much much before that.

772
00:39:15,431 --> 00:39:18,431
Speaker 2: How old were you when you finally said goodbye to

773
00:39:18,511 --> 00:39:19,272
Speaker 2: the church.

774
00:39:20,152 --> 00:39:22,792
Speaker 3: I actually didn't formally leave until I was nineteen, Okay,

775
00:39:23,232 --> 00:39:25,832
Speaker 3: I kept going. I didn't know you could leave. I

776
00:39:25,832 --> 00:39:27,912
Speaker 3: thought you died and went to hell if you left.

777
00:39:28,232 --> 00:39:31,111
Speaker 3: I didn't know anybody who left, and there were a

778
00:39:31,112 --> 00:39:33,832
Speaker 3: few people around me who had left, in my extended

779
00:39:33,832 --> 00:39:36,232
Speaker 3: family and community, but I never saw them again. They disappeared,

780
00:39:36,752 --> 00:39:39,392
Speaker 3: and they disappeared because they were shunder ex communicated, or

781
00:39:39,471 --> 00:39:41,911
Speaker 3: shamed away, or in the case of one of my

782
00:39:41,951 --> 00:39:44,872
Speaker 3: extended family, they actually died. And you know that was

783
00:39:44,951 --> 00:39:46,951
Speaker 3: used against us. We were told if you leave, that

784
00:39:47,232 --> 00:39:50,151
Speaker 3: some accident will befall you and you will die. You know,

785
00:39:50,192 --> 00:39:52,352
Speaker 3: I didn't know you could leave. I thought I just

786
00:39:52,392 --> 00:39:56,191
Speaker 3: had to try and maintain this life while building another

787
00:39:56,232 --> 00:39:58,392
Speaker 3: life outside of it, and somehow try and make them work,

788
00:39:58,392 --> 00:39:59,832
Speaker 3: because I thought if I left, I was going to

789
00:39:59,832 --> 00:40:00,191
Speaker 3: go to hell.

790
00:40:00,911 --> 00:40:03,911
Speaker 2: So did you leave thinking that might happen?

791
00:40:04,431 --> 00:40:05,232
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did.

792
00:40:05,792 --> 00:40:07,312
Speaker 2: That's a huge huch thing to take on.

793
00:40:07,951 --> 00:40:09,991
Speaker 3: Yeah, the reality is I was really pushed out. I

794
00:40:10,031 --> 00:40:13,511
Speaker 3: was excommunicated out because my behavior and my appearance in

795
00:40:13,511 --> 00:40:16,312
Speaker 3: my community. I no longer fitted with my community. Was

796
00:40:16,312 --> 00:40:18,952
Speaker 3: the reality. I was going to university, I wasn't dressing

797
00:40:18,991 --> 00:40:21,552
Speaker 3: the way I should have been. I had dreadlocks. Actually

798
00:40:21,632 --> 00:40:23,432
Speaker 3: I refused to cut my hair because we weren't allowed

799
00:40:23,431 --> 00:40:25,312
Speaker 3: to cut our hair. But I thought, like a big

800
00:40:25,392 --> 00:40:27,392
Speaker 3: dreadlocks with it, and I can still, you know, get

801
00:40:27,392 --> 00:40:29,272
Speaker 3: it up in a big bun. With dreadlocks.

802
00:40:30,272 --> 00:40:32,192
Speaker 2: You were really working with what you could.

803
00:40:32,232 --> 00:40:34,392
Speaker 3: Because working with what I had, you know. But of

804
00:40:34,431 --> 00:40:37,752
Speaker 3: course I was turning up every Sunday and Wednesday and

805
00:40:37,752 --> 00:40:39,591
Speaker 3: they were like, what is she? What is this?

806
00:40:39,872 --> 00:40:39,991
Speaker 4: Like?

807
00:40:40,031 --> 00:40:41,832
Speaker 3: I was not setting the right example. So I was

808
00:40:41,872 --> 00:40:44,232
Speaker 3: really pushed out of the community. I thought I was

809
00:40:44,232 --> 00:40:46,591
Speaker 3: probably going to die. I was waiting to die, is

810
00:40:46,672 --> 00:40:49,712
Speaker 3: the reality for a long time, you know, for six months.

811
00:40:49,951 --> 00:40:51,431
Speaker 3: It was the early days of the internet. And I

812
00:40:51,471 --> 00:40:55,352
Speaker 3: started searching online and found some things and started to realize, oh, okay,

813
00:40:55,832 --> 00:40:57,671
Speaker 3: probably not going to die quite the way they say

814
00:40:57,672 --> 00:41:00,671
Speaker 3: I'm going to. Yeah, So yeah, I left thinking I

815
00:41:00,712 --> 00:41:01,432
Speaker 3: was going to die.

816
00:41:01,911 --> 00:41:05,232
Speaker 2: Do you even remember the first day that you weren't

817
00:41:05,511 --> 00:41:08,352
Speaker 2: a part of the group anymore? What did that look?

818
00:41:08,431 --> 00:41:11,591
Speaker 3: Like I don't really remember. I remember the day I

819
00:41:11,592 --> 00:41:13,631
Speaker 3: realized I was never going back. And I just walked

820
00:41:13,632 --> 00:41:15,991
Speaker 3: out of a Sunday service and they'd all kind of

821
00:41:16,511 --> 00:41:18,551
Speaker 3: been very strange with me. You know, there's a lot

822
00:41:18,551 --> 00:41:20,712
Speaker 3: of rituals at the end of services, like you have

823
00:41:20,752 --> 00:41:22,672
Speaker 3: to shake hands with everybody, you know, you'll sit in

824
00:41:22,672 --> 00:41:24,471
Speaker 3: a circle, and there's a whole lot of rituals that

825
00:41:24,511 --> 00:41:27,672
Speaker 3: happen in Truth services, and I just was really uncomfortable

826
00:41:27,672 --> 00:41:29,231
Speaker 3: and realizing none of them would look me in the eye,

827
00:41:29,352 --> 00:41:30,832
Speaker 3: none of them would shake hands with me, none of

828
00:41:30,832 --> 00:41:33,151
Speaker 3: them would let me participate in the rituals. And it

829
00:41:33,152 --> 00:41:35,392
Speaker 3: had been going on for a while, for kind of

830
00:41:35,431 --> 00:41:37,591
Speaker 3: a year, maybe eighteen months, but this day I just

831
00:41:37,632 --> 00:41:40,671
Speaker 3: realized it had escalated and they were really pushing me out,

832
00:41:40,712 --> 00:41:43,712
Speaker 3: and I felt really, really uncomfortable, you know, to the

833
00:41:43,712 --> 00:41:46,031
Speaker 3: point where they were reversing away from me so that

834
00:41:46,112 --> 00:41:48,232
Speaker 3: didn't have to talk to me, and basically tripping over themselves,

835
00:41:48,312 --> 00:41:50,071
Speaker 3: you know, to get away from me. And I came

836
00:41:50,112 --> 00:41:51,551
Speaker 3: to the end of that service and I walked down

837
00:41:51,632 --> 00:41:54,271
Speaker 3: and was bucketing down with rain. As I have said before,

838
00:41:54,272 --> 00:41:57,151
Speaker 3: I didn't have any money, I had nothing. Everyone else

839
00:41:57,192 --> 00:41:59,471
Speaker 3: had cars, and I had to really on public transport,

840
00:41:59,672 --> 00:42:01,671
Speaker 3: and none of them ever offered me a lift, which

841
00:42:01,712 --> 00:42:03,592
Speaker 3: is self was weird because I came from a family

842
00:42:03,592 --> 00:42:06,272
Speaker 3: in a community that like we're so tight, and you know,

843
00:42:06,312 --> 00:42:08,312
Speaker 3: I would never have let anybody take public transport and

844
00:42:08,352 --> 00:42:11,031
Speaker 3: would have given anyone a lift. And so yeah, they

845
00:42:11,112 --> 00:42:12,392
Speaker 3: just sort of let me walk out. And I was

846
00:42:12,431 --> 00:42:14,991
Speaker 3: waiting in the rain for the tram and it was

847
00:42:15,152 --> 00:42:17,712
Speaker 3: bucketing down with rain, and they were all driving past

848
00:42:17,752 --> 00:42:19,792
Speaker 3: me and just kind of looking the other direction and

849
00:42:19,792 --> 00:42:21,712
Speaker 3: refusing to make eye contact with me, and I just

850
00:42:21,752 --> 00:42:23,951
Speaker 3: sort of went, I don't think these people want me.

851
00:42:24,192 --> 00:42:25,672
Speaker 3: I don't think I belong here anymore. And I just

852
00:42:25,672 --> 00:42:28,392
Speaker 3: felt this deep sense of like rejection and shame and thought,

853
00:42:28,832 --> 00:42:30,991
Speaker 3: I'm not coming back here anymore. I don't want this anymore.

854
00:42:31,312 --> 00:42:33,551
Speaker 3: I don't know what this is, and I don't want to. Yeah,

855
00:42:33,551 --> 00:42:35,272
Speaker 3: and I made that decision that DA I'm never going back,

856
00:42:35,392 --> 00:42:37,712
Speaker 3: never ever going back. And I was so shamed and

857
00:42:37,872 --> 00:42:40,592
Speaker 3: felt so bad that I was willing to die basically

858
00:42:40,712 --> 00:42:43,872
Speaker 3: because I wasn't going to participate in that anymore. And yeah,

859
00:42:43,991 --> 00:42:45,751
Speaker 3: you know, it was a pretty tough ond six months

860
00:42:45,792 --> 00:42:47,072
Speaker 3: after that, like I had nothing.

861
00:42:47,872 --> 00:42:50,711
Speaker 2: Did you have to call your family and tell them

862
00:42:50,712 --> 00:42:52,551
Speaker 2: that you were leaving? What did that look like?

863
00:42:53,312 --> 00:42:55,392
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I did try to talk to my family

864
00:42:55,392 --> 00:42:58,431
Speaker 3: about it, certainly after I'd found information online about the

865
00:42:58,471 --> 00:43:01,232
Speaker 3: group and about them being cultic and about the abuses,

866
00:43:01,312 --> 00:43:03,591
Speaker 3: for instance, and about Norell and Stephen Henderson as well.

867
00:43:03,632 --> 00:43:05,671
Speaker 3: Like I found information about them and was like, what

868
00:43:05,712 --> 00:43:08,152
Speaker 3: the hell. Like, I tried to talk to my family

869
00:43:08,152 --> 00:43:10,752
Speaker 3: about it, but they would say things like, Oh, you've

870
00:43:10,752 --> 00:43:12,712
Speaker 3: been taken in by the devil, you know, like the

871
00:43:12,752 --> 00:43:15,511
Speaker 3: devil puts things on the internet to confuse people. Your

872
00:43:15,511 --> 00:43:17,352
Speaker 3: spirit is wrong, you need to go back, and you

873
00:43:17,392 --> 00:43:19,872
Speaker 3: need to repent, and you need to come back. And

874
00:43:20,072 --> 00:43:21,752
Speaker 3: there was a lot of shaming and a lot of

875
00:43:21,792 --> 00:43:24,312
Speaker 3: like thoughts stopping stuff. They just wouldn't listen to anything

876
00:43:24,471 --> 00:43:26,911
Speaker 3: that I had to say, so I stopped really talking

877
00:43:26,911 --> 00:43:28,832
Speaker 3: about it. But you know, and it also became gossip,

878
00:43:28,832 --> 00:43:30,792
Speaker 3: because that's the other thing is that our communities are

879
00:43:30,832 --> 00:43:33,631
Speaker 3: very close, and yeah, people just gossip about me and

880
00:43:33,672 --> 00:43:36,792
Speaker 3: about my appearance and about my spirit. And then it

881
00:43:36,832 --> 00:43:38,712
Speaker 3: really escalated to the point where there was kind of

882
00:43:38,712 --> 00:43:42,072
Speaker 3: ostracization and I would go home to my rural community

883
00:43:42,112 --> 00:43:45,272
Speaker 3: on holidays and whatever. And yeah, people from my community

884
00:43:45,272 --> 00:43:47,312
Speaker 3: would cross the street to avoid me or pretend they

885
00:43:47,352 --> 00:43:49,951
Speaker 3: didn't know who I was. Yeah, And you know, and

886
00:43:49,951 --> 00:43:52,192
Speaker 3: I from a tiny, little rural community where these are

887
00:43:52,192 --> 00:43:54,071
Speaker 3: people I've known my entire life, you know, and these

888
00:43:54,112 --> 00:43:56,271
Speaker 3: are people I've known since I was born. They would

889
00:43:56,272 --> 00:43:57,511
Speaker 3: just pretend they didn't know who I was.

890
00:43:58,511 --> 00:44:01,111
Speaker 2: And you've described that for the most part, you had

891
00:44:01,272 --> 00:44:03,911
Speaker 2: a very happy childhood with your nuclear family, but you

892
00:44:03,951 --> 00:44:05,832
Speaker 2: haven't spoken to them now for many years.

893
00:44:06,431 --> 00:44:08,911
Speaker 3: That right, Yeah, there was a lot of ostracization, a

894
00:44:08,911 --> 00:44:11,511
Speaker 3: lot of shunning by my extended family, and not just

895
00:44:11,511 --> 00:44:14,712
Speaker 3: my family, but my community as well. I think there's

896
00:44:14,911 --> 00:44:17,591
Speaker 3: been hopeful things. You know, there is more and more

897
00:44:17,632 --> 00:44:21,431
Speaker 3: who have come forward and made contact after leaving themselves,

898
00:44:21,511 --> 00:44:23,991
Speaker 3: So that's nice. But you know, people don't realize the

899
00:44:24,072 --> 00:44:27,071
Speaker 3: damage that's done to relationships and the damage and the

900
00:44:27,112 --> 00:44:30,192
Speaker 3: trauma that happens. And even when people leave, it's not

901
00:44:30,232 --> 00:44:33,312
Speaker 3: always happy families, you know. And these are often people

902
00:44:33,312 --> 00:44:36,552
Speaker 3: who have protected abuses. For instance, even if they leave,

903
00:44:36,712 --> 00:44:38,712
Speaker 3: they're still not going to go back and say, oopsie,

904
00:44:39,312 --> 00:44:41,591
Speaker 3: I might have covered up for a predator for you.

905
00:44:41,592 --> 00:44:43,951
Speaker 3: You know for somebody, So there's a lot of really

906
00:44:43,951 --> 00:44:46,712
Speaker 3: toxic behavior. Still, yeah, there's a lot of cover ups

907
00:44:46,752 --> 00:44:49,431
Speaker 3: and a lot of very damaged people, even if they

908
00:44:49,511 --> 00:44:51,432
Speaker 3: leave often still not in a great place.

909
00:44:52,352 --> 00:44:55,432
Speaker 2: You mentioned that your first six months were really tough.

910
00:44:55,951 --> 00:45:00,111
Speaker 2: What did trying to integrate into normal society look like.

911
00:45:01,031 --> 00:45:03,512
Speaker 3: I'd never worn jeans. I'd never bought a pair of jeans.

912
00:45:03,511 --> 00:45:05,911
Speaker 3: I didn't know how to buy jeans. I had never

913
00:45:05,911 --> 00:45:08,352
Speaker 3: been to a hairdresser and have my haircut properly, like,

914
00:45:08,431 --> 00:45:10,591
Speaker 3: had a hairstyle properly. I didn't know how to use

915
00:45:10,592 --> 00:45:12,792
Speaker 3: a hair dryer in my family, which is not common,

916
00:45:12,872 --> 00:45:14,591
Speaker 3: Like I think my family were a bit hardcore about this,

917
00:45:14,712 --> 00:45:17,471
Speaker 3: but hair dryers were seen as being worldly, so we

918
00:45:17,511 --> 00:45:19,632
Speaker 3: didn't use hair dryers. So I don't know how to

919
00:45:19,632 --> 00:45:22,272
Speaker 3: blow dry my hair. I'd never used makeup. I had

920
00:45:22,392 --> 00:45:25,111
Speaker 3: absolutely no clue how to use makeup. I wouldn't have

921
00:45:25,192 --> 00:45:28,911
Speaker 3: known what lipstick or mascara was, you know. I very actually,

922
00:45:29,031 --> 00:45:31,951
Speaker 3: very rarely bought clothes knew from a store. I had,

923
00:45:32,152 --> 00:45:34,872
Speaker 3: you know, a couple of times, but mostly our clothes

924
00:45:34,951 --> 00:45:38,352
Speaker 3: were made within their family or within the community. So yeah,

925
00:45:38,471 --> 00:45:40,752
Speaker 3: just things like shopping for clothes. I had no idea

926
00:45:40,792 --> 00:45:44,032
Speaker 3: about wearing things that came above my knee. For instance.

927
00:45:44,072 --> 00:45:46,951
Speaker 3: I had no idea about how to use a TV remote,

928
00:45:47,031 --> 00:45:49,432
Speaker 3: like how to even know what channels are on TV

929
00:45:49,832 --> 00:45:53,032
Speaker 3: like pop music, no idea about radio stations, no idea

930
00:45:53,031 --> 00:45:53,872
Speaker 3: about pop music.

931
00:45:54,352 --> 00:45:57,031
Speaker 2: But was learning all of this exciting or was it

932
00:45:57,072 --> 00:45:59,392
Speaker 2: a bit overwhelming terrifying?

933
00:45:59,672 --> 00:46:03,671
Speaker 3: Because I was also very ashamed, and so to ask

934
00:46:03,752 --> 00:46:06,312
Speaker 3: for help from the people around me was very difficult.

935
00:46:06,832 --> 00:46:08,352
Speaker 3: Was very ashamed. So I sort of just had to

936
00:46:08,431 --> 00:46:11,231
Speaker 3: learn by stealth and by watching and by like being

937
00:46:11,312 --> 00:46:13,431
Speaker 3: hypervigilant with the people around me to try and work

938
00:46:13,471 --> 00:46:16,071
Speaker 3: out like how do you do lipstick? Like how do

939
00:46:16,112 --> 00:46:19,432
Speaker 3: you work that remote control? And now that this is common,

940
00:46:19,551 --> 00:46:21,832
Speaker 3: I think while the issues might be slightly different now

941
00:46:21,832 --> 00:46:24,392
Speaker 3: there's not good deprogramming services for people when you leave,

942
00:46:24,872 --> 00:46:27,872
Speaker 3: you know, it's just not good counseling that's affordable, certainly

943
00:46:27,991 --> 00:46:29,872
Speaker 3: for people to go and learn how to live in

944
00:46:29,872 --> 00:46:32,591
Speaker 3: the world. We're like aliens from another planet. Like we

945
00:46:32,672 --> 00:46:35,752
Speaker 3: might look like other people, but we're like aliens.

946
00:46:37,031 --> 00:46:40,911
Speaker 2: Have you been to the police about the alleged crimes

947
00:46:40,951 --> 00:46:44,312
Speaker 2: that you witnessed or saw happen or is there no

948
00:46:44,392 --> 00:46:45,031
Speaker 2: point doing that.

949
00:46:45,752 --> 00:46:49,232
Speaker 3: I've raised several different cases with police on various different

950
00:46:49,431 --> 00:46:52,352
Speaker 3: things that happened, and in fact, my leaving was also

951
00:46:52,392 --> 00:46:54,511
Speaker 3: a very long, very violent process as well. There was

952
00:46:54,551 --> 00:46:57,352
Speaker 3: a lot of abuse while I was leaving, things like

953
00:46:57,511 --> 00:47:01,392
Speaker 3: leaving notes on my windscreen threatening me, things like voicemails,

954
00:47:01,471 --> 00:47:04,511
Speaker 3: leaving threatening voice mails, and you know, every time I've

955
00:47:04,592 --> 00:47:09,112
Speaker 3: raised cases with authorities, then experienced another round of violence

956
00:47:09,112 --> 00:47:12,151
Speaker 3: and abuse. So I have not only raised it about

957
00:47:12,152 --> 00:47:14,432
Speaker 3: things that happen in my childhood, but I've also raised

958
00:47:14,431 --> 00:47:17,151
Speaker 3: cases for things that happened as I was leaving. It's

959
00:47:17,272 --> 00:47:20,112
Speaker 3: very difficult to prove anything, and as I've mentioned before,

960
00:47:20,192 --> 00:47:22,591
Speaker 3: the community is very tight knit and they protect each other,

961
00:47:22,911 --> 00:47:24,991
Speaker 3: and you need a lot of evidence even to get

962
00:47:24,991 --> 00:47:29,032
Speaker 3: a case up normally, and there is even less evidence

963
00:47:29,072 --> 00:47:31,631
Speaker 3: when you have less people who will stand behind you

964
00:47:31,672 --> 00:47:33,631
Speaker 3: and support you. And it's also part of the reason

965
00:47:33,632 --> 00:47:36,152
Speaker 3: why I speak out because when I first started trying

966
00:47:36,192 --> 00:47:38,991
Speaker 3: to raise awareness and started to have court cases try

967
00:47:38,991 --> 00:47:41,991
Speaker 3: and get court cases up, there was nothing available for

968
00:47:42,072 --> 00:47:44,911
Speaker 3: people to reference when they talked to police online about

969
00:47:44,911 --> 00:47:48,032
Speaker 3: who the group was. There was nothing online for people

970
00:47:48,392 --> 00:47:50,232
Speaker 3: to send to a police officer and say, this is

971
00:47:50,272 --> 00:47:52,312
Speaker 3: the group I came from. This woman is talking about

972
00:47:52,312 --> 00:47:54,511
Speaker 3: the group I came from. And for me, in the

973
00:47:54,551 --> 00:47:56,392
Speaker 3: last kind of five years, I've just had so many

974
00:47:56,431 --> 00:47:58,192
Speaker 3: people reach out and say, you know, I raised a

975
00:47:58,272 --> 00:48:00,511
Speaker 3: case and I sent things I found that you've said

976
00:48:00,551 --> 00:48:02,991
Speaker 3: online and I sent it to the detective and I

977
00:48:03,072 --> 00:48:04,832
Speaker 3: sent it to the police and I said, this is

978
00:48:04,832 --> 00:48:05,232
Speaker 3: the group.

979
00:48:05,312 --> 00:48:05,471
Speaker 1: You know.

980
00:48:05,511 --> 00:48:07,272
Speaker 3: I'm not making this up. This is the group, this

981
00:48:07,352 --> 00:48:09,632
Speaker 3: is where they come from, this is their background, because

982
00:48:09,632 --> 00:48:13,392
Speaker 3: it was just so little published about us, especially in Australia.

983
00:48:13,511 --> 00:48:17,232
Speaker 2: Is that why you've decided to do this interview? Do

984
00:48:17,312 --> 00:48:19,191
Speaker 2: you just want to keep getting the message out there

985
00:48:19,272 --> 00:48:20,072
Speaker 2: for other people?

986
00:48:20,792 --> 00:48:21,471
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do.

987
00:48:21,911 --> 00:48:23,392
Speaker 3: I want to get the message out, but I also

988
00:48:23,471 --> 00:48:25,752
Speaker 3: bigger than that, I want to talk about spiritual abuse.

989
00:48:26,192 --> 00:48:29,992
Speaker 3: I want mainstream family violence providers to realize how violent

990
00:48:30,031 --> 00:48:32,511
Speaker 3: these groups are and how much support we need when

991
00:48:32,511 --> 00:48:35,031
Speaker 3: we leave, and that deciding to leave is a very long,

992
00:48:35,192 --> 00:48:38,472
Speaker 3: very violent process, and that we need support, we need housing,

993
00:48:38,672 --> 00:48:41,352
Speaker 3: we need funding, and at the moment there just is

994
00:48:41,431 --> 00:48:44,951
Speaker 3: not supports for people who try to leave our communities for.

995
00:48:44,951 --> 00:48:47,832
Speaker 2: A bit of hope. What does your life look like now?

996
00:48:49,031 --> 00:48:51,672
Speaker 3: On one hand, I have a really wonderful life, you know.

997
00:48:51,872 --> 00:48:53,832
Speaker 3: I have a five year old. I have a brand

998
00:48:53,872 --> 00:48:56,352
Speaker 3: called Go Kindly, a betting brand that I co founded

999
00:48:56,352 --> 00:48:59,991
Speaker 3: and built. I have wonderful friends and wonderful relationships. And

1000
00:49:00,031 --> 00:49:02,192
Speaker 3: I'm very deeply loved in the world that I have

1001
00:49:02,272 --> 00:49:05,071
Speaker 3: created for myself. But on the other hands, I'm also

1002
00:49:05,072 --> 00:49:07,432
Speaker 3: a deeply traumatized person from the things that have happened

1003
00:49:07,471 --> 00:49:09,551
Speaker 3: to me, and I have to hold those things very

1004
00:49:09,551 --> 00:49:13,032
Speaker 3: closely and manage those things. You know, I have CPTSD

1005
00:49:13,232 --> 00:49:16,151
Speaker 3: as a result of the abuses and the sustained abuses.

1006
00:49:16,712 --> 00:49:19,671
Speaker 3: I'm very loved. I have a wonderful life, but it

1007
00:49:19,672 --> 00:49:20,832
Speaker 3: comes with its damage.

1008
00:49:21,951 --> 00:49:24,511
Speaker 2: I want our final question to kind of speak directly

1009
00:49:24,632 --> 00:49:28,192
Speaker 2: to people. I know it's hard to get access to interviews,

1010
00:49:28,232 --> 00:49:30,591
Speaker 2: but who might be listening to this. They might be

1011
00:49:30,832 --> 00:49:34,231
Speaker 2: members of the Truth and they want to get out.

1012
00:49:34,991 --> 00:49:35,991
Speaker 2: What would you say to them?

1013
00:49:37,112 --> 00:49:40,471
Speaker 3: I think that people need to come to the realization

1014
00:49:40,672 --> 00:49:43,272
Speaker 3: inside the Truth that it cannot be changed, it cannot

1015
00:49:43,272 --> 00:49:45,792
Speaker 3: be made safe. It is a dangerous ideology. It is

1016
00:49:45,792 --> 00:49:49,431
Speaker 3: an extreme ideology. It's not Christianity. You can leave and

1017
00:49:49,471 --> 00:49:51,471
Speaker 3: you can go and join a different church. A mainstream

1018
00:49:51,551 --> 00:49:53,872
Speaker 3: church and still be a Christian. You do not need

1019
00:49:53,911 --> 00:49:56,312
Speaker 3: to believe in the extreme ideology of the truth. It's

1020
00:49:56,312 --> 00:49:59,631
Speaker 3: abusive and it cannot be changed. My advice to people

1021
00:49:59,632 --> 00:50:02,031
Speaker 3: who reach out to me starting to have this conversation

1022
00:50:02,072 --> 00:50:04,952
Speaker 3: is they're usually very terrified, but is to just start

1023
00:50:04,991 --> 00:50:08,471
Speaker 3: gradually exploring what life outside the truth could look like

1024
00:50:08,752 --> 00:50:11,911
Speaker 3: and take very small steps to explore a different church

1025
00:50:11,951 --> 00:50:16,111
Speaker 3: quietly without anybody really knowing. To educate yourself about what

1026
00:50:16,192 --> 00:50:18,272
Speaker 3: supports you might need if you wanted to leave, and

1027
00:50:18,312 --> 00:50:20,551
Speaker 3: that's things like creating yourself your own bank account that's

1028
00:50:20,551 --> 00:50:24,471
Speaker 3: separate from your families. That's things like thinking about housing

1029
00:50:24,592 --> 00:50:26,592
Speaker 3: and at what point might you be able to get

1030
00:50:26,632 --> 00:50:29,712
Speaker 3: your own access to housing if for whatever reason, your

1031
00:50:29,712 --> 00:50:32,192
Speaker 3: spouse or your family did not want to leave with you,

1032
00:50:32,872 --> 00:50:35,232
Speaker 3: What would that safely look like, especially from communities like

1033
00:50:35,272 --> 00:50:37,471
Speaker 3: the one I came from, where leaving would mean they

1034
00:50:37,471 --> 00:50:39,552
Speaker 3: would cross the street and never speak to you again.

1035
00:50:39,951 --> 00:50:42,151
Speaker 3: What are the implications of you leaving and thinking those

1036
00:50:42,192 --> 00:50:45,792
Speaker 3: things through and actually going into a family violence organization

1037
00:50:45,951 --> 00:50:50,471
Speaker 3: and demanding that they listen to your background, because at

1038
00:50:50,471 --> 00:50:52,071
Speaker 3: the moment, there are not a lot of family valence

1039
00:50:52,192 --> 00:50:56,991
Speaker 3: organizations who understand the difficulties leaving fundamentalist groups, but you

1040
00:50:57,031 --> 00:50:58,951
Speaker 3: have a right to ask that they listen and a

1041
00:50:59,031 --> 00:51:00,471
Speaker 3: right to ask that they support you.

1042
00:51:05,951 --> 00:51:09,992
Speaker 2: Thanks Laura for sharing her story with us. True Crime

1043
00:51:09,991 --> 00:51:13,431
Speaker 2: Conversations is a Muma mea podcast hosted and produced by

1044
00:51:13,471 --> 00:51:17,671
Speaker 2: me Jemma Bath, with audio designed by Scott Stronik. Our

1045
00:51:17,672 --> 00:51:19,672
Speaker 2: executive producer is Giam Moylan.

1046
00:51:29,272 --> 00:51:31,552
Speaker 1: We'll be back next week with a brand new episode

1047
00:51:31,551 --> 00:51:35,232
Speaker 1: of True Crime Conversations, Richat with former Australian Special Forces

1048
00:51:35,272 --> 00:51:38,911
Speaker 1: soldier Heston Russell about his childhood, his time in the military,

1049
00:51:39,112 --> 00:51:42,152
Speaker 1: and his infamous defamation battle with the ABC