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Speaker 1: Even after that night, I couldn't let my husband touch me,

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Speaker 1: and he never touched me after that night ever again.

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Speaker 1: We never kissed, ever again.

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Speaker 2: Natalie Bassingthwaite has spent more than two decades moving between music,

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Speaker 2: television and theater, building a career that's made her one

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Speaker 2: of Australia's most recognizable performers. She began in musical theater,

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Speaker 2: performing in the original Australian production of Rent before becoming

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Speaker 2: the front woman of Rogue Traders, and became a household

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Speaker 2: name when she stepped into Ramsey Street as easy On Neighbors,

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Speaker 2: a character who quickly became one of the show's most

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Speaker 2: iconic and unforgettable villains. Since then, Nat has worn a

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Speaker 2: lot of hats, singer, actor, television host, coach on The

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Speaker 2: X Factor, and now once again a musical theater lead

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Speaker 2: as she prepares to step into the beloved role of

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Speaker 2: Jenna in the Australian production of Waitress. But in recent years,

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Speaker 2: Natalie's life has taken a turn she never expected. After

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Speaker 2: years in a long term relationship and raising two children,

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Speaker 2: Natalie has spoken publicly about the profound personal shift that

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Speaker 2: came with falling in love with her now fiance Pip Loth.

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Speaker 2: It's a relationship that's opened up an entirely new chapter

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Speaker 2: in her life, one she writes about with striking honesty

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Speaker 2: in her upcoming autobiography Love Like This. Today, she joins

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Speaker 2: me to talk about that new chapter about love, identity, family,

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Speaker 2: what it feels like to rebuild a life in full

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Speaker 2: view of the public. We also talk about returning to

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Speaker 2: musical theater, the place where her career first began, and

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Speaker 2: why this moment in her life feels like a kind

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Speaker 2: of second beginning. Nat Bass Natalie bassing Thweite, I don't

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Speaker 2: think we've ever had on no filter, which is where

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Speaker 2: you are anyone who's had such a breadth of how

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Speaker 2: they are known to the Australian public as an actor,

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Speaker 2: as a host, as a mother, as a lead singer,

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Speaker 2: as a wife, as a woman in a committed heterosexual relationship,

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Speaker 2: as a woman who's now with a non binary partner,

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Speaker 2: as someone who is an author. And it seems like

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Speaker 2: there might be a difference between Natalie Bassingthweite, the little

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Speaker 2: girl that sprang up in Woollongong and that baths.

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Speaker 1: Is there, who is that?

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Speaker 2: Who is with that?

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Speaker 1: And that is and where did that come from? Who

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Speaker 1: came up with that? I don't know's been so long

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Speaker 1: now that it was like when did that happen to be.

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Speaker 2: In that bass?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I have read your body?

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Speaker 2: What a read? What a life?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's actually kind of strange to talk about it,

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Speaker 1: to be honest, because it's been so long, obviously in

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Speaker 1: life in the making, but also in the actual pen

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Speaker 1: to paper and to keyboard type process, and now talking

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Speaker 1: about it is strange. What means to cut in the end,

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Speaker 1: Like my head is so full, I'm like, where did

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Speaker 1: we know?

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Speaker 2: Well? Also, sometimes I think when you've written things, it's

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Speaker 2: very different from saying them out loud.

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Speaker 1: So different, Yeah, very much so, Like it's a lot

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Speaker 1: more healing as well. You know, it's at times torturous,

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Speaker 1: I think digging up stuff that you don't want to

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Speaker 1: face or that you've forgotten about, or that you know,

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Speaker 1: starts another little trigger spiral or like another little trauma spiral.

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Speaker 1: But ultimately it was just so cathartic in the end.

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Speaker 1: Took a while to feel that, but it feels like

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Speaker 1: a release. It feels like a big sigh, a big

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Speaker 1: breath out, you know, of like holding on for so

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Speaker 1: long and then just being able to go.

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Speaker 2: And there's also a part of you, I think from

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Speaker 2: my own experience, when you tell the truth about things,

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Speaker 2: that becomes its own reward and then it yates its

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Speaker 2: own momentum. So it's almost like casting off things that

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Speaker 2: you thought that you couldn't or aspects of yourself that

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Speaker 2: you couldn't show. Yeah, and then when you start to

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Speaker 2: reveal them, how does that feel?

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Speaker 1: I Mean there's times when like telling your story feels

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Speaker 1: too much. It's like I don't know if I want

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Speaker 1: this out there, And I think that's honestly why I've

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Speaker 1: avoided it so much. Like I was asked to write

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Speaker 1: a book I don't know when five years ago, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, hello, I don't want anyone knowing my deepest,

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Speaker 1: dark as secret, and I'm not one to kind of hide.

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Speaker 1: I'm definitely one to protect myself, but I'm not one

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Speaker 1: to yeah too high. So it was look, it was

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Speaker 1: an exploration in itself, but it was it's just really confronting.

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Speaker 2: Where did the impetus come from to write the book? Now?

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Speaker 1: Well, clearly the last few years have been crazy for me,

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Speaker 1: like personally career wise as well, but more so personally

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Speaker 1: and I felt like I had broken down so many

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Speaker 1: barriers that I had held really close, like they were

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Speaker 1: not coming. It was not coming apart at all. It

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Speaker 1: was just going to be like protect, protect protected, or costs,

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Speaker 1: cover up, cover up, cover up. And it just when

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Speaker 1: I was doing jagged Little peel and I met peep,

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Speaker 1: I started writing again, like poetry. And I remember saying

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Speaker 1: to me, what music do you listen to? And I

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Speaker 1: was like, I don't know. I mean, it was the

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Speaker 1: weirdest question or ridest answer, and They're like, what do

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Speaker 1: you mean? And I was like, I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: don't I haven't listened, like really listened to music for

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Speaker 1: so long. I've just been on this roller coaster of

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Speaker 1: life and surviving and thriving. You know, life. Life's been

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Speaker 1: pretty great, you know. But I mean, obviously I'm so

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Speaker 1: menopausal like all of us ladies at this age, so

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Speaker 1: my brain is just like, also, I've just done like

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Speaker 1: seventy hour weeks where I'm like, I finished really late

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Speaker 1: last night and another on a suit. So I'm like,

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Speaker 1: did you ask me?

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Speaker 2: So you were talking about the music and this you

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Speaker 2: write about this here in love like this, and it's

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Speaker 2: a very interesting thing. Because music has always been such

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Speaker 2: a huge part of who you are, so that when

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Speaker 2: someone says to you, what music do you like and

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Speaker 2: you can't answer that, do you think that was almost

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Speaker 2: a metaphor for where you were in your life at

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Speaker 2: that time, in other words, that you were not connected

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Speaker 2: with your inner.

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Speaker 1: C Yeah, well I just thought major Cousto. Yeah, one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent. I think I had learnt very early on

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Speaker 1: to survive emotionally is just put a little bit of

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Speaker 1: armor on and then put another bit, and then put

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Speaker 1: another bit and another bit and another bit, and then

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Speaker 1: you're not feeling anymore. Yeah, there's no like, there's like

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Speaker 1: feeling at a surface level, which was really quite odd

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Speaker 1: for me too, because I'm such an emotional human. But

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Speaker 1: I still feel like there was this big protection up

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Speaker 1: that to not really listen to music the way I

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Speaker 1: listened to it, or then to write the way I wrote,

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Speaker 1: or to lie really I honestly fell in my heart

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Speaker 1: and I know I've written this in the book. My

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Speaker 1: heart was just like had a little all around it,

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Speaker 1: just protecting it so it wouldn't fully expose or be raw.

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Speaker 1: And after doing that show and it was raw.

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Speaker 2: Well, I have to tell you something, because Jagged Little

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Speaker 2: Pill was such a if you look at your life

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Speaker 2: at where there are critical defining moments, Jagged Little Pill

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Speaker 2: the stage production seems to be one of those moments

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Speaker 2: for you in which in which everything changed. But I

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Speaker 2: actually saw you in that production in Melbourne. It was

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Speaker 2: after lockdown, and I went with a girlfriend and I

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Speaker 2: didn't know much about it at all at the time.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I knew it was the music of Alanis

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Speaker 2: Morrissett blah blah blah, yeah, and that the story had

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Speaker 2: been kind of retro fitted to it. Anyway, I think

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Speaker 2: an interval and the whole thing was significant because it

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Speaker 2: was post lockdown, so it was the first time a

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Speaker 2: lot of people had been in a theater with other

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Speaker 2: people around, and just to be out was significant. But

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Speaker 2: at interval, at interval, my girlfriend said Genatt bass is

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Speaker 2: amazing and oh waiting, no, well, hang on, I said,

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Speaker 2: which one's that bass? And I did not realize. I

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Speaker 2: did not realize that you were MJ. I did not

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Speaker 2: know that that was you, that I had been watching

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Speaker 2: you and in fact, I'm so happy to say to you,

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Speaker 2: not only watching you, but marveling, going gosh. She think

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Speaker 2: this perform is incredible.

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Speaker 1: And it was so wild. That's so wild and such

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Speaker 1: a huge compliment, Thank you.

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Speaker 2: A massive compliment. There was something very significant about that

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Speaker 2: stage show also for me in the audience.

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Speaker 1: And everyone felt like that, you know, at different times.

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Speaker 1: It was such a beautiful, vote heavy show because people

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Speaker 1: did feel stuff themselves that they'd probably forgotten to like.

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Speaker 1: It was such a connective piece of theater. You know,

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Speaker 1: you selt what they selt. They saw what you saw.

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Speaker 2: It was, Yeah, would you never know in the audience

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Speaker 2: if it's just a really a remarkable cast doing remarkable things.

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Speaker 2: But reading your book, it becomes apparent that there was

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Speaker 2: a lot of stuff going on with the performers as well.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, and with you.

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Speaker 2: So you came to that production and this is what

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Speaker 2: we all know of your life that you were with

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Speaker 2: Cam who was in Rogue Traders with you. He was

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Speaker 2: your husband, You had two beautiful kids. Oh you're still

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Speaker 2: you're not. You've consciously uncoupled, but not legally.

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Speaker 1: We still do gigs yeah all the time. Right yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so not still his husband, but still right.

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Speaker 2: I was like, wait, what not his wife? You never

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Speaker 2: were as.

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Speaker 1: Shit? Someone put me to bed and so in.

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Speaker 2: The process of that, and you had moved to the

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Speaker 2: most significant thing that we're aware of in the you know,

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Speaker 2: in that blur of what we know about celebrities, you know,

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Speaker 2: through news or whatever. You had moved to Byron Bay

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Speaker 2: a few years earlier.

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Speaker 1: Which I loved. It was such an obviously significant move

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Speaker 1: for all of us, but it was what we needed.

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Speaker 2: And when you say it was what you needed as

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Speaker 2: a family, what was.

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Speaker 1: That, you know, it was just a sense. I mean personally,

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Speaker 1: I really needed to ground myself. I feel like the

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Speaker 1: life that we live is so flast case and you're here,

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Speaker 1: there and everywhere. It's really hard to just stop and

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Speaker 1: take stock of what is and isn't happening in your

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Speaker 1: life and be together as a unit. Like Cam and

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Speaker 1: I a couple of years before that were like where

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Speaker 1: do we like, what are we doing? Like where do

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Speaker 1: we want to be? And what do we want for

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Speaker 1: our kids? Put like more importantly, you know, like what

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Speaker 1: do we want for them? And we were looking at

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Speaker 1: you know, it's that stage where you're looking at high

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Speaker 1: schools and like what are they going to? What's the

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Speaker 1: next part of the life for them? And it just

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Speaker 1: didn't feel like it fits for either of us, even

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Speaker 1: though I was the one that was like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: I think we should go do this, and but ultimately

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Speaker 1: it was Cam that made the decision. It went all right,

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Speaker 1: let's go, let's sell the house, and I'm like, what

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Speaker 1: we're doing this? And yeah, it was just a really

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Speaker 1: nice shift in We were just so much more connected

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Speaker 1: when we came up to Byron, you know you have

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Speaker 1: more and thank goodness because it was we moved two

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Speaker 1: months before COVID from Melbourne, so we missed that whole, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, such gratitude because I, you know, my mental

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Speaker 1: health hasn't been great on and off, like it's been

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Speaker 1: amazing and it's been terrible. But I don't know if

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Speaker 1: I would have handled that very well. It's not being

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Speaker 1: outside or you know, being that contained. I think that

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Speaker 1: might have sent me off with Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well there was there is a sense of people who

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Speaker 2: injured those lockdowns in Melbourne being like crushed flowers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I had two weeks in lockdown when I came

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Speaker 1: back from New York, and yes, snowhere near as bad

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Speaker 1: as so many people had it. But I need fresh air,

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Speaker 1: like I feel very caged in, and so I got

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Speaker 1: you know, we got thrown on this bus. I'm not thrown,

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Speaker 1: but it felt like that there were, you know, soldiers

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Speaker 1: and everything. It felt like I was a criminal and

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Speaker 1: they put you on in the bus and they've got

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Speaker 1: guns and they're like take you to this hotel. And

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Speaker 1: it was the strangest thing, like I haven't done anything wrong.

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Speaker 1: Why am I here? And then you're in this hotel

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Speaker 1: and yeah, it's not a horrible hotel, but you're trying

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Speaker 1: to a window for two weeks. I remember ringing or

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Speaker 1: they would ring every day to ask if you had

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Speaker 1: any symptoms, and then they'd be like, I said, I'm

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Speaker 1: not doing so well. Okay, I'm really kind of freaking out,

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Speaker 1: Like I'm feeling like I just need to get outside.

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Speaker 1: Is there any way that I can just go take

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Speaker 1: a big deep breath? And they're like no, unless you

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Speaker 1: need an ambulance, you can't do that. It was really

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Speaker 1: a very unraveling time, even just in that hotel room

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Speaker 1: for two weeks.

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Speaker 2: And who were you in lockdown?

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Speaker 1: With other cast members like Leah Howard who was our

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Speaker 1: associate director. I'm jagged, and also Peter Rutherford who's my

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Speaker 1: musical director. So we all went over to America to

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Speaker 1: learn the show. Because of COVID, they couldn't all come

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Speaker 1: to Australia like they normally would, so it was a

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Speaker 1: bit all over the place. But he was really confronting.

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Speaker 1: And I never video really. I don't know people, you know,

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Speaker 1: we all video ourselves, won't the Lafe's amazing, but like,

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Speaker 1: never really video myself when I'm unraveling, and they're like,

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Speaker 1: have this video of myself? Just kind of I watched

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Speaker 1: it not that long ago, so I, oh, my god,

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Speaker 1: that was at my headspace, Like I kind of looked

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Speaker 1: really vacant, like it wasn't me. I wasn't there, So

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Speaker 1: it was awful to watch.

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Speaker 2: And do you think at the time that the unraveling, obviously,

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Speaker 2: which was exacerbated by the lack of air and the

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Speaker 2: confinement and the very strange times that we lived in,

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Speaker 2: was there a sense that in your life there was

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Speaker 2: an unraveling or a picking a part of the threads

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Speaker 2: or things fraying? Then do you.

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Speaker 1: Think, Yeah, I think in homesight, absolutely, but I don't

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Speaker 1: think I realized it at the time.

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Speaker 2: Because you talk about in your book, you talk about

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Speaker 2: this euphoric I think it was at your your wrap drinks.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, where.

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Speaker 2: You ended up dancing on a table.

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Speaker 1: I always dance and you said, I mean it's been

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Speaker 1: a while. I went, lie, you know that was my

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Speaker 1: signature moves.

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Speaker 2: Well, as long as as long as there were tables.

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Speaker 2: But Peepe, who had worked on Jagged Little Pill, you

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Speaker 2: said to them in the midst of this euphoria, tell

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Speaker 2: me what you said.

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Speaker 1: I said, if I wasn't married, i'd turned for you.

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Speaker 1: Now this was about five or six years before Jagged

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Speaker 1: Little Pill. And then I hardly saw that.

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Speaker 2: Well, oh that's right, Yes it was Chicago.

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Speaker 1: Was it not Chicago?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: And I only did like a month or something in

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Speaker 1: the Brisbane season, and we hardly even spoke. It was

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Speaker 1: the strangest thing. They were just very sweet. I remember

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Speaker 1: that my grandma had passed away at the time, and

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Speaker 1: it was I was really emotional because you know, the

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Speaker 1: show must go on, but then life still goes on too,

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Speaker 1: and death still goes on, so you have to manage

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Speaker 1: those emotions. And pipp had bought me a little vegan chocolate,

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Speaker 1: so I was veeking at time and just said, you know,

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Speaker 1: times chocolates, see anything that can help in these moments.

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Speaker 1: And I just thought, wow, that's so sweet. Times it like,

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Speaker 1: we didn't hang out, we didn't have coffee, I did

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Speaker 1: like nothing. It was the strangest thing. I think Casey

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Speaker 1: Donovan and I were on a mission to like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, we were just being a little bit tissy

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Speaker 1: at the time, because you hold yourself together doing these shows, right,

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Speaker 1: and you have to I've got to be so you know, good,

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Speaker 1: I don't drink, you've got a better you know all

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Speaker 1: of that. But then at the end you're like, all right,

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Speaker 1: give me a table. I don't ready to like let

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Speaker 1: it all lose. So it was the It was the

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Speaker 1: stranger at the time, but clearly now in hindsight even stranger.

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Speaker 2: Well, because sometimes I think you have those connections with

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Speaker 2: people and they don't necessarily evolve into something else, and

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Speaker 2: often they're more reflective of what's going on with you.

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Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? You see something in

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Speaker 2: that person and it's about you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You and Pip. Yeah, cross paths again, Dean, As you

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Speaker 2: said four or five years later on Jag a Little Pill. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: well they were the stage manager.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they only did the second again. It was a

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Speaker 1: bit like Chicago, you know, we'd done like the whole

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Speaker 1: country or whatever wherever we went, and then Brisbane was

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Speaker 1: the last bit, and same with Jagged. I think we

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Speaker 1: did Sydney, then we went to Melbourne and went back

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Speaker 1: to Sydney. So before the full unraveling, I think I

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Speaker 1: knew them for three weeks, which flows my mind even

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Speaker 1: to this day. I'm like, that's so strange.

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Speaker 2: When you say the full unraveling. What did the full

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Speaker 2: unraveling look like?

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Speaker 1: Well, honestly, it's so I feel like it sounds so strange.

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Speaker 1: But that night on stage when I sang Forgiven, I'm

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Speaker 1: standing there and like every night I would, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you saw it, you know, like I don't know what

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Speaker 1: night you saw, but this show really like I really

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Speaker 1: immersed myself into this role and it was weird because

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Speaker 1: you're not that role. But then things start overlapping and

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Speaker 1: things start going, oh that's me. Oh wow. I didn't

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Speaker 1: think I even I didn't even think I even took

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Speaker 1: the role for me. I thought I took it for

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Speaker 1: my manager who had passedway, which the whole other story,

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Speaker 1: but I was like, oh, I think I need to

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Speaker 1: do this for him. You know, the unraveling to me

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00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:30,359
Speaker 1: was standing there singing Forgiven. I felt you for it

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Speaker 1: on that stage, on that Second Life opening night, I

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Speaker 1: felt free, I felt seen that, I felt exposed, and

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Speaker 1: I felt wow. But I felt like it was such

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Speaker 1: a contradiction of life, like everything that was going on

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Speaker 1: for me. I think I fell to the ground, tears

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Speaker 1: fell down my face. I mean that was pretty standard.

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Speaker 1: I did that most nights, and I think I'm sure

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Speaker 1: I wrote that in the book where you know you

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Speaker 1: just immerse yourself. But I just walked off stage and

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Speaker 1: I it was like there was no one else so strange.

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Speaker 1: It was like there was no one else around, but

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Speaker 1: yet everyone was there. It was just like this feeling

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Speaker 1: of there's no going back, and I still didn't even

348
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Speaker 1: know what that meant. It was just like this right.

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Speaker 1: I felt like my manager whod passed away, was like

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Speaker 1: in me or around me, or supporting me, but yet

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Speaker 1: everyone was watching that unraveling, Like I felt like the

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Speaker 1: audience were there witnessing me just being raw and exposed

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Speaker 1: for the first time in such a long time. You know,

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Speaker 1: I turned fifty last year, so it was close to

355
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Speaker 1: my fiftieth birthday a couple of years before. You know,

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Speaker 1: I don't feel like I've ever really immersed myself into

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Speaker 1: something creatively as much as that show, and I do

358
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Speaker 1: believe in it was the right time. Maybe it was.

359
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 1: It was the constant reliving and telling of this story

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Speaker 1: of abuse and gender identity and sexuality and whatever that

361
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 1: we all in the cast were like feeling and thinking

362
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Speaker 1: night after night that that was the moment that I

363
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 1: was like, whoa, I just felt changed and it was

364
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 1: really hard to understand what. And then obviously later on

365
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Speaker 1: in that night when I had this like it was

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Speaker 1: like I was so high and I wasn't high, but

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Speaker 1: I had this like high and it was very weird.

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Speaker 1: It was very unusual, and I just yeah, I had

369
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Speaker 1: this electricity. It was like electricity through my body and

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Speaker 1: we weren't touching. It was like a magnet, you know

371
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Speaker 1: where there's this like oh like it was like that.

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Speaker 1: And I remember turning to fifth and I think you

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Speaker 1: need to go, and they went, yeah, it was so weird.

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Speaker 2: They felt it also, Yeah, yeah weird. After a short break,

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Speaker 2: we'll be back with more of my conversation with Natalie

376
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Speaker 2: bassing Through. You were so consumed, at once consumed and

377
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 2: at once projecting this extraordinary energy field that was happening

378
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 2: to you. How did you look to Pip who was

379
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:24,520
Speaker 2: watching you night after night on stage but also seeing

380
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Speaker 2: you seeing you backstage.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, that's probably a question. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever discussed.

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Speaker 1: I told them, like, after that night happened. The next morning,

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Speaker 1: I rang my friend and went, I need a therapist.

385
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Speaker 1: I don't know what happened last night. Like between you

386
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Speaker 1: would think that it was like a big weekend bender

387
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 1: on drugs or something like. It was like that. It

388
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Speaker 1: was like a out of body something that I went with,

389
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Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't even Yeah, So I did their

390
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Speaker 1: therapy first, and then I think I was at home

391
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Speaker 1: for a few days, and then I came back to

392
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Speaker 1: the show and that's right, and we went out on

393
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: the Thursday night and I was telling him about how

394
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Speaker 1: I was feeling, just going, I don't know what happened.

395
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Speaker 1: So yes, we have discussed what I felt happened on

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Speaker 1: the stage. And I'm quite a spiritual. My kids folk

397
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 1: on me woo person. Kip's not like that. So they're like, well,

398
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 1: this is strange, and I'm like, I know, but they

399
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: also very beautiful and supportive and open that they just

400
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 1: listened to me going, I mean I even after that night,

401
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: I couldn't let my husband touch me. And he never

402
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 1: touched me after that night ever again. We never kissed

403
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,199
Speaker 1: ever again. It was so bizarre for him and me.

404
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 2: And yes, because you wrote in the book you said,

405
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 2: why can't I be around masculine energy anymore? And this

406
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: returned to Byron with your husband, the father of your children,

407
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,959
Speaker 2: with whom you'd built this beautiful, loving life.

408
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, nothing like I couldn't you know, he would try

409
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 1: and reach out or everything in my body said no,

410
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: don't touch me everything. And so then it became the

411
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,959
Speaker 1: unraveling of what has just happened to me? What has

412
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Speaker 1: just gone on? And I had like, you know, therapy

413
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 1: on my own, and then Cam and I were like,

414
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 1: we need therapy together because why all the feelings? Why

415
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 1: don't know? Don't I want you to be near me?

416
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 1: Like yeah, So it was a massive process of trying

417
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 1: to understand all of that.

418
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 2: And also for him so hurtful.

419
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Speaker 1: Absolutely like he's like, where's my wife gone? And every

420
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 1: time he said that, it was like my body froze

421
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: and went even the word wife was I didn't like it.

422
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 1: My body was like, don't call me that and I

423
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,239
Speaker 1: didn't say that, but everything in my body was like,

424
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: I don't. I didn't like the ownership. I didn't like

425
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:11,719
Speaker 1: the the size of him, Like he felt very big

426
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: and scary. And one night I think I told him

427
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 1: that he was terrifying and he's like, me terrifying, that's crazy,

428
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: and I'm like, that's how I felt.

429
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 2: And then he said to you, are you a lesbian?

430
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: Yeah? And you said I couldn't say anything. Nothing came

431
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: out of my mouth because I was like, I don't know,

432
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,959
Speaker 1: am I like, how can I had like a chemical

433
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: reaction to somebody and not like I just didn't know

434
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: how to answer it. And also to hear that come

435
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: out of his mouth out of nowhere was not so bizarre,

436
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 1: you know. I don't think a single word came out

437
00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: of my mouth. I was just sitting in the corner like, yeah.

438
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 2: And you speak very beautifully about him in the book,

439
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 2: and what strikes me having read it is that he

440
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 2: had to both of you had to do this, really,

441
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 2: I guess, find the way in which you loved each

442
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 2: other outside of that relationship that you had had as

443
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:24,479
Speaker 2: husband and wife.

444
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's still a daily thing, you know, it's

445
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,719
Speaker 1: not like. The thing is I never fell out of

446
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,719
Speaker 1: love with Cam. That's the weird thing because that's not

447
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: what happened. You know, Like you hear these stories, they're

448
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 1: like I'm over them or him or her or whatever,

449
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 1: and then I'm looking or I'm like that wasn't that

450
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 1: wasn't our story. None of that happened. It was just

451
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: this night on stage, this thing afterwards, and then like

452
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: what and then the not being able to be held,

453
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 1: touch nurtured by him, men masculine. That was the That

454
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: was the unraveling of like why, And I have more

455
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: of an understanding of it now, but it's still bizarre.

456
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course because before that, and also before Cam,

457
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 2: you'd been you'd been married already to a guy. You'd

458
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 2: had him, an affair that you speak about very honestly

459
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 2: when you were nineteen. He was in his fifties. Yeah,

460
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 2: you had been an unquestioning I guess, an unquestioning woman

461
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 2: who went out with and fell in love.

462
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: With me totally. It wasn't even an until I mean,

463
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: like kids, the thing, I've always thought women are beautiful, Yes,

464
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: doesn't everyone like.

465
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 2: You know, well, we are everyone we are We were not.

466
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: Kid but I've had amazing relationships with men. I've been

467
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: in love with men, so that's not a question either.

468
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: But it was very suddenly, I can't have you touch

469
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: me anymore, or I can't It's like not even a kiss, nothing,

470
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: couldn't do it. And the whole body said, no.

471
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 2: What did he do during that process? Like you were

472
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 2: trying to sort stuff out? Obviously he was trying to

473
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 2: store sort stuff out, and you've got two dearly loved children.

474
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: I mean he was unraveling the poor man's like where

475
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: like you know, like you said, where's my wife? And

476
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know, I don't know. And I'm

477
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: not the same person. I see, I'm the same person,

478
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: but I'm so the way that I speak, the way

479
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: that I speak up, the way that i've I'm different.

480
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: I never did that. I kind of not that. I

481
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: it was quiet. I'm allowed human.

482
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 2: But you're also very good at playing roles.

483
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope so like in real life. Yeah, I

484
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: mean I've done it a long time, right, and I

485
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 1: think it's hard to make sense of that part of it, honestly. Yeah.

486
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: I get to in my creative world deep dive into

487
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: other people's lives that may be some somehow that is

488
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: avoidant of self.

489
00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 2: But at some stage also because your life is and

490
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: your work is for the public, the public have an

491
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 2: appetite to know about people that they are interested in.

492
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 2: So then you had to bring this to the public

493
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 2: or it was voisted upon you.

494
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was so incredibly emotional on so many levels

495
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: because I think I was still figuring out, like what

496
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: the hell was going on? You know, I was still

497
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: unraveling in my own time with my family unit trying

498
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: to make sense of that. You know, to feel like

499
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: that it could be public knowledge or scrutinized or degraded

500
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: or anything felt debilitating and solacious.

501
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 2: It's very salacious.

502
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it felt silatious and it felt I think one

503
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: thing that's triggered me a lot is having people do

504
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 1: things for those reasons, and I'm not that person, Like

505
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: I'm like, treat people with love and kindness. Like we

506
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: all have stuff, we all have baggage, we're all not

507
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 1: you know, we all make mistakes, and do you know what.

508
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: I think that is one of the reasons why in

509
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: the end, I was like, I'm ready to tell my

510
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: story and I'm not embarrassed about the really things that

511
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: once upon a time I was so ashamed of or

512
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: it started to make sense to me after this period

513
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: in my life where I'm like, oh my god, this

514
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 1: is where I'm at and it's okay. You know, social

515
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: media is so like I'm perfect, everything's perfect, Like, actually,

516
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: no one's life is perfect, and I think it does

517
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:27,719
Speaker 1: help people when you share that. It's scary, it's really scary,

518
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: but it's also I mean, look, who knows books about

519
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: to come out. Probably yeah, people like you know, but

520
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: it felt for the first time in my life. I'm

521
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: okay to say it because after doing so much therapy,

522
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: all of those things that happened have led me to

523
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: this space and I feel like I am personally so happy,

524
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: like full of joy. I'm completely tired and do weary,

525
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,479
Speaker 1: its because it happens to stop working a million hours.

526
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: But my kids are a man amazing, My relationship is amazing.

527
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: My work stuff is just so great. You know. My

528
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: relationship with my ex is pretty darn good considering all

529
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: that's happened. And that's that's a privilege.

530
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 2: Well, like you said, you're touring together too, Yeah, yeah,

531
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 2: which is I can't even imagine how how that is.

532
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, touring with someone that you're

533
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: together with or not can be challenging at the best

534
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: of time. But we spend a lot of time working

535
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: out how to be in this next phase, you know,

536
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: and we had great mediator sessions with this incredible woman

537
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: who it wasn't really about money or assets or anything

538
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 1: like that at this point. It was like, how do

539
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: we be how do we do this next bit? And

540
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: for the cure to be okay that was the biggest

541
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: priority for us. And she got the white bought out.

542
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: She's like, where do you what are your kids like?

543
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: And what do you want for them? Do you want

544
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: them to go to UNI or do you want them?

545
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: And we both will look at each other and we

546
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: want we just want them to be happy. And they said, well,

547
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: she said, well what does that look like? And we said, well,

548
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: I guess you know, if we're happy, they're happy. And

549
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 1: that is the truth with kids, you know, we if

550
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: we can be okay with each other, then they're going

551
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,479
Speaker 1: to be great. The definitely the family unit. I think

552
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: that was the hardest thing for all of us, and

553
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: the thing that I just kept fighting against being in

554
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: this space of true self love to sacrifice that for

555
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: everyone else. Like that was the fight of like, I

556
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: can't do this, but everything in my body and mind

557
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: was saying, you have no choice. This is this. You

558
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 1: can't not be yourself and teach your children like your

559
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 1: children need to know that you have to take care

560
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: of yourself in every way I think, and yes, we

561
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 1: all make sacrifices, but for your kids to see you

562
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 1: truly happy is pretty important. I think.

563
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 2: We'll take a quick break now, but do not go anywhere,

564
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: because there's much more from Natalie Bassingthwaite coming up. When

565
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 2: you were having those conversations with the kids, which I

566
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 2: gather you and Cam had tried to insulate yourself a

567
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 2: little bit to you to get a sense of even

568
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 2: for each other, what was going on. Yeah, but when

569
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 2: you had to bring the children in to the conversation, Yeah,

570
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 2: how was that and how did you approach that?

571
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: It was really hard? But Harper had heard a lot

572
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: of stuff, because you know, when you're going through some

573
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: pretty heavy stuff, you overhear things.

574
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: How old was she then?

575
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: What was it four years ago? Did'tven what you are?

576
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:11,720
Speaker 1: What's regular? Yeah? Twenty twenty two, so she was twelve

577
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: and she was just insanely incredible. You know. She asked me,

578
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: are you a lesbian? And I was like, whoa that

579
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: question again? Yeah, and again I didn't even know how

580
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: to answer. I was like, I don't even know, Like

581
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, at that stage, I just

582
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: had the moment on stage, that feeling after of that electricity,

583
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,760
Speaker 1: and then the what is going on with my life?

584
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: Like what are these feelings? And also the separation from

585
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: him as well, like it was just the full like

586
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 1: all of that was going on. So when she said that,

587
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: I was like, I have no clue what's going on.

588
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: So I had to just be honest and say I

589
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: don't know, and then I think. And it was another

590
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: time when she was talking about something else with it,

591
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 1: and I just said, I just don't want you to

592
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: be embarrassed or ashamed of me, and she just looked

593
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: at me and helped me, and she said, I'd never

594
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 1: be embarrassed or ashamed of you as fike. M yeah,

595
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 1: m hmm, pretty amazing.

596
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 2: Mmm, that's beautiful.

597
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's that's the fear, you know, in life

598
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: as well, like in the media of like mm hmm,

599
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 1: I thought I'd lose all my jobs, my endorsements, my hmm.

600
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it is the nature of the work that

601
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 2: you do is that it's at once professional but also

602
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 2: deeply personal. Yeah, so to to reveal the most personal.

603
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: Aspects of your it's really scary.

604
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's scary. It's very a word that's overused, but

605
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 2: it is brave, it's courageous because.

606
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: We know we didn't feel like that.

607
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 2: No, Well, you had this compulsion that you couldn't you know,

608
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 2: you the wind was at your back, You couldn't turn

609
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 2: around and walk back into that wind. You were really

610
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 2: being blown into uncharted waters.

611
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's totally what it felt like. I'm like, what

612
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: it was? The full unraveling of everything that I've known

613
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: so far in my life?

614
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,359
Speaker 2: And then how was pit while this process was going on?

615
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 2: They sound like they're a very patient person, whereas you

616
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 2: don't strike me as particularly patient, do you know what

617
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 2: they just?

618
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think either of us knew what

619
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: it was. So it wasn't like we weren't in relationship.

620
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: We were just like what was that? What was that electricity?

621
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: It was so them, you know, doing JAG A little

622
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: pill two was an opening for themselves to understand themselves

623
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: as well. Like before that they identified as she her,

624
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 1: and then that show they were like, Oh, I think

625
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: this is me. I think I'm non binary. How do

626
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: you feel about that? And I was like, you have

627
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: to be you whatever that is, no matter what you know.

628
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: And that was not us in relationship. That was us

629
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 1: friendship and just trying to both I think both things

630
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 1: were happening for us individually also collectively at the same time.

631
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: You know, I was like, who am I and what

632
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: is all this about? And they're like, who am I?

633
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 1: And what is all this about? That they you know,

634
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: we didn't speak for weeks because yeah, he said, you know,

635
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 1: do I feelings to someone? And I said yeah, and

636
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: he said is it a woman? And I said yes,

637
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 1: and he I think we were. I think it's the

638
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: first time I said it, and it was freaky to

639
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: say it, and then once it's out of your mouth,

640
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: you can't take it back. But I still didn't understand

641
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: what it meant at that time, but I went yeah,

642
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: and of course, you know, he was horrified and angry

643
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: and scared. I'm sure, and yeah, then it was the

644
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: trying to nut out what to do about it.

645
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 2: You also say something that will resonate with so many

646
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 2: people who have seen the end, the collapse of what

647
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: was their unit, their family unit. You said, I'd never

648
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: realized how much identity hides in routine until it was gone.

649
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

650
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 2: That gives me goosebumps actually, because there's so much about

651
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 2: the you know, chop would carry water, normal thing.

652
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: The day to day, Yes, the day to day. It's

653
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 1: getting up. Who does the right first? Who does the theirs?

654
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 1: Were used to drive, that's it. You used to drive

655
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: to you know, school, pie c up and drop off.

656
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: And yeah, that stuff is hard to not have anymore,

657
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 1: that family unit, Christmases, birthdays, you know, mm hmm. It's sacrifice,

658
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,399
Speaker 1: h it's yeah. I mean, I think the scary thing

659
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 1: is to not feel selfish by being who you know

660
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: is the right thing, the right youth.

661
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 2: That's a very interesting situation because and a conundrum because

662
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:54,240
Speaker 2: it is selfish. Yeah, it's purely selfish in the sense

663
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 2: that it's about yourself. Yeah, and yet you have to

664
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 2: mess to gate that against love and duty and honor

665
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: and commitment and promises made, yes, but mostly to yourself.

666
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's the hardest thing, is to blame yourself.

667
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 2: And did you do that?

668
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, a lot. But I still didn't really understand

669
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 1: why how when, like I said, I didn't go out searching.

670
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: It wasn't like everything was so shit that I was like,

671
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: all right about none of that happened. It wasn't that story,

672
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 1: So it didn't really make sense.

673
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 2: So now with the clarity and wisdom of hindsight, in

674
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 2: that moment where you were bridling against Cam using the

675
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 2: word wife, that was almost it sounds like almost an instinct.

676
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 2: Did you know did you know in those moments that

677
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: there was a finality to it or did you still

678
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 2: think that you would be able to therapy or navigate

679
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 2: your way out of it and back into what had

680
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 2: been normal.

681
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 1: I didn't know there was a finality to it at all.

682
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: I didn't have a clue what was going on at

683
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: that time. I just knew that I couldn't let him

684
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: physically be near me. And the hindsight stuff came with

685
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 1: lots of therapy, lots of unraveling of masculine I feel

686
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 1: like there's been a lot of stuff that's happened to

687
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,959
Speaker 1: me over my life with different men that have felt

688
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:47,359
Speaker 1: really controlling and manipulatives, and I've never felt that with Can.

689
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: That was the weirdest thing, but it's almost like he

690
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: had to bear the brunt of everyone else in that moment,

691
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 1: and like he would say to me, it feels like

692
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 1: you're treating me like I've over abused you. That's what

693
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,880
Speaker 1: he would say to me, and I'm like, I know

694
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: you haven't, but when everything in my body feels the same,

695
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: it's very.

696
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:18,240
Speaker 2: Odd in that moment when someone that you love is

697
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 2: hurting so much.

698
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: Yes, but you don't.

699
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 2: Have the vocabulary or the understanding to even know what's

700
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 2: going on with yourself. Yeah, could you comfort him?

701
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: Or oh yeah, I think I think we both through

702
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 1: it all. We're trying so hard to comfort each other,

703
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: but it would be oscillate between that and anger clearly

704
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: fair enough. Yeah, I asked me if you'd be in

705
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: a polyamorous relationship and I was like, even, na, Like

706
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 1: I don't even know if I could do that, but

707
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 1: it just made no sense of how to make it

708
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:08,320
Speaker 1: just didn't make sense sense. He's like, oh my god,

709
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,879
Speaker 1: I see so much with you, with the world I'm

710
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: not going to share. And I was like, yeah, fair enough,

711
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 1: Like saying probably wouldn't work for me either, but it

712
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 1: just just trying to make sense of it. We were

713
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 1: we tried to do all the things the therapist eventually said,

714
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 1: because I didn't speak to Pit for a while, and

715
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: then the therapist said, maybe you need maybe Natalie needs

716
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 1: to see it. And Cam's like, oh bloody, you know,

717
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: like really and yeah. I ultimately after liked I think

718
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: a week or whatever, I just it just didn't sit

719
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,840
Speaker 1: well with me. I'm like, I don't no, That's not

720
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 1: what I'm trying to do here. That's I'm just going,

721
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: how can I have such a physical spiritual electrical reaction

722
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: and go, oh, well, I don't know what that was,

723
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: like what is that? And or so side by side,

724
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 1: not wanting any physical or anything with that, Like, I

725
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: just none of it made sense to me. I didn't

726
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 1: need to see them again to know that I'd had

727
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: that feeling. We did have stuff that wasn't perfect, like

728
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 1: any relations HyET, but I think I was so guarded

729
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: that I kind of didn't see a lot of stuff.

730
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: I didn't really I wasn't really fully allowing all of

731
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,760
Speaker 1: it in because I was so shut down, I think.

732
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 2: And exactly that point that you make about you know, identity,

733
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 2: hiding in routine.

734
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:43,120
Speaker 1: In routine and just and keeping quiet, I think I

735
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,840
Speaker 1: learned for a long time to keep quiet or be small,

736
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: because that would be better off for everyone.

737
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 2: And you are small but mighty correct.

738
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, mm.

739
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 2: Hmmm, Oh Jesus, it's amazing, it's really amazing.

740
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: Thank you.

741
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 2: I don't want to be one of the people that's

742
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 2: underestimated you. But I think I've underestimated you. Oh not not,

743
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 2: you know, just because there's so much to you. Yeah,

744
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 2: And of course we couldn't know that. We couldn't know.

745
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: You couldn't know because I kept the facade so great.

746
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: It was like, but I think we all do that.

747
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm special in that regard.

748
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 2: No, but you forget you're a good actor. You're a

749
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 2: very good actor.

750
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know what, I'm a terrible liar. This

751
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: is the funny. Yeah, me too, Like I am the

752
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:54,839
Speaker 1: worst liar, Like like my kids go, you can't lie.

753
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: I'm like own, like I feel like I can once

754
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: I'm in a character here I can deep dive, but

755
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 1: in real life, like yes, here it is you know

756
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: especially now, like I can't. You can't hide once once

757
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 1: that's the walls are broken down. It's it's real or

758
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:13,240
Speaker 1: real or nothing.

759
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 2: You know, you know how you said that you're worried

760
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 2: about your work and your endorsements or whatever. That didn't happen.

761
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 2: In fact, no, in fact, you've never been more in demand,

762
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 2: it would say.

763
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 1: I feel. You know, what I feel is that I

764
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 1: feel because I'm so connected to myself, I'm not afraid

765
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: to be so open or raw or real or I

766
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: don't think I had a choice on stage that night.

767
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 1: It just was. It just happened. It was the culmination

768
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: of the show, but also my life lived to that point.

769
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 1: I don't think that I had a choice, but ultimately

770
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 1: I did have to choose, didn't I.

771
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 2: And your work has continued to flourish.

772
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think because I'm like, I've just been

773
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: doing this film and I like it's my first like

774
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:12,919
Speaker 1: big lead role in a film, and I feel I'm

775
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: really proud of myself. Like years ago, I film it's

776
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 1: called Love, Wine and Valentine, and I just did the

777
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: play Shirly Valentine at one mom play and I'm like, oh,

778
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 1: you know, all this like synergy and like I'm like,

779
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: how strange that, you know? And initially the director wanted

780
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: me to play the role of Valentine, and I'm like hilarious,

781
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 1: that's funny. And then she came to see me in

782
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,399
Speaker 1: the play and went, oh my god, I think you're

783
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: the lead role. I think you're Sophie. And I'm like,

784
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 1: what I think it's because I'm so connected to myself

785
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: that I'm just so open now and I and I

786
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 1: don't I don't hate myself, you know, I look at

787
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 1: myself now and go, go you. You are talented, and

788
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 1: there's been times where I've not felt.

789
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:07,280
Speaker 2: That, which I find amazing. I find that extraordinary having.

790
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,319
Speaker 2: But I do think there's a tendency sometimes to take

791
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 2: people for granted, and particularly you know, you came to

792
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 2: public attention in neighbors. I think there's a real tendency

793
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 2: in this country, not overseas so much, I don't think,

794
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 2: but to go, oh, well, they're just from neighbors. On

795
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 2: now she wants to be a singer. Ah, Now she's

796
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 2: been cast in his without recognizing what your origin story

797
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 2: as an artist was. That from when you were a

798
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,719
Speaker 2: little girl in Woollongong, you've been singing and dancing and

799
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 2: you're a proper triple threat. So now you've been cast

800
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 2: this year is a great year for you.

801
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 1: It's so strange, like lead role in a movie, lead

802
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: role in a musical. I'm about to do Waitress a musical,

803
00:50:56,080 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 1: which is just so exciting. I love the show so much. Yes,

804
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 1: and got to see it in New York when I

805
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 1: was doing Jagged, So there's all this like as well.

806
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 2: When you were watching it, did you ever think I

807
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 2: will play that role?

808
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 1: When I watched it, I was in the audience with

809
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 1: Leah again, Leah the associate director, and Ruby Rose, and

810
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: the three of us were all very well. Ruby and

811
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 1: I were clients of Mark, my manager who passed away,

812
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 1: and Leah was a very good friend. Slash worked with

813
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: Mark a lot. We all watched it and we left

814
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:31,760
Speaker 1: the theater. I think my jaws on the ground going.

815
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 1: I said, I think that's one of the best shows

816
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: I've ever seen. That's a big statement because I've seen

817
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,839
Speaker 1: a lot of great shows. But it was just it

818
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 1: was a human story. It was so real. The music's incredible,

819
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 1: like Sarah Brarellis's music is just like oh, and it

820
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 1: just spoke to me and I was just like, gosh,

821
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: if that show ever comes to Australia, I need to

822
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 1: play Jenner. And yeah, I auditioned for it and three

823
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: months later got the role.

824
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,760
Speaker 2: So it was a lot right and now, of course,

825
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 2: because Jenna in the in the story is late twenties,

826
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 2: I know, right, okay.

827
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: Hight, okay, I'm late twenties right. Well, I know there

828
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,279
Speaker 1: was a bit of backlash about that apparently, Yes, I

829
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 1: was too old.

830
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 2: Yes, when you got cast. Yeah, And I'm not suggesting

831
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,280
Speaker 2: that the onus is on the person that gets cast.

832
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 2: To go, hang on a minute, you know, shouldn't you

833
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 2: be looking at twenty year olds for this? But did

834
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 2: it occur to you at any point as you're going

835
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 2: through the audition process and these are rigorous processes.

836
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:42,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, very much.

837
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 2: So did you at any point think did you litigate

838
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 2: against yourself? In other words, did you think I'm not

839
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 2: I can't get this role because of age.

840
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: When I first was thinking about going for it. Definitely

841
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 1: that enters your mind, Like I was like, if they

842
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:04,839
Speaker 1: even would consider me, you know, But it's just so fascinating.

843
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 1: I feel like the ageism thing happens with other women.

844
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 1: I think that's what was the strangest thing with this show.

845
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 1: When I finally got it, She's too old, like da

846
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:18,759
Speaker 1: da da, And I'm like, actually, escap can you need

847
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 1: to have experience to put these roles life experience, and

848
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 1: I have that. I know these stories. I feel like

849
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:33,399
Speaker 1: I can dive into that, and I think it says

850
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 1: a lot about I mean, when people are negative about

851
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:40,439
Speaker 1: these things, I think, you know, it did hurt as well,

852
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 1: like oh wow, okay, yeah, okay, I am old and

853
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:49,719
Speaker 1: I'm also young. You know, somehow it says a lot

854
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 1: about other people. I think in the end, I have

855
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 1: to look at it like that. I think that we

856
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 1: should all be able to immerse ourselves into whatever you're

857
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 1: not going to get. Put it this way, They're not

858
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:03,359
Speaker 1: going to give me the role for the sake of it.

859
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 1: Like the process that has to happen to get a

860
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 1: role like this is all the Australian producers and the

861
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: American producers. Sarah Burellis is an independent you know, her

862
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: own artist in her own right, and she's also done it,

863
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: so everyone has to say. Yeah. So when people are,

864
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,399
Speaker 1: you know, bagging you or the choice, you're not only

865
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 1: bagging me, but you're bagging the creators who have made

866
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: the choice. And it's like, you know, they would never

867
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 1: just chuck someone in it. They need it to work

868
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 1: for themselves as well, so.

869
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 2: And on your behalf, I did bridle at the term

870
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:43,879
Speaker 2: stunt casting, which implie, yeah, that's crazy because neither you

871
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 2: nor Rob Wills are stunt casting. What you are is.

872
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: Better in a long time.

873
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:50,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's correct.

874
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 1: They didn't.

875
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 2: You just didn't just pop up on you know, instat.

876
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 1: And it's a big show, like like you have to vocally,

877
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: it's a really big but the acting in this show

878
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:06,840
Speaker 1: is really important because it is a musical theater show,

879
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 1: so that makes you feel like everything's a bit over

880
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 1: the top, but this show is like really earnest and

881
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: really you can't not be real in this. So they

882
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 1: needed someone who I guess wasn't too musical theater, but

883
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,319
Speaker 1: maybe he's done some musical theater. It's a bit far's like,

884
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 1: it was very specific, I think what they wanted, and

885
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:27,320
Speaker 1: I didn't know whether I would be that right person,

886
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 1: But after about three months of you know, proving that

887
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: I was, it ended up happening.

888
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 2: So I don't know if you have an answer to this,

889
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 2: but I think for a lot of people it's the times,

890
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 2: as we know, are confusing, right, So we live in

891
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 2: an era in which non binary roles can only be

892
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 2: played by non binary people or people of color, you know,

893
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 2: not about us without us. So then in theater, if

894
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 2: there's a twenty nine year old role or however old,

895
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 2: the role is being played by a woman who's a

896
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 2: couple of decades older than that.

897
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds very do you know what I mean?

898
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:15,359
Speaker 2: Like how people are like, how does that work? Then?

899
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 1: Does it?

900
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 2: Does it not apply to age or does it only

901
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:21,880
Speaker 2: apply to color and gender or whatever?

902
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,759
Speaker 1: It is? Confusing? I agree with you, like, I don't

903
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 1: know what the right or wrongs thing is in that space.

904
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 1: Do we only do that or do we not? I

905
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 1: can only say, oh, this such and such excites me.

906
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:38,760
Speaker 1: You know. I was asked if I was interested in

907
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 1: the role, and I was like, hell, yes. And I

908
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 1: don't want to do a lot of theater these days

909
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 1: because as a parent, it's really time consuming. It has

910
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 1: to be something that really speaks to me. And this

911
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:54,360
Speaker 1: show really spoke to me. Yeah, I mean there was

912
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 1: an article written about me the other day. You'd find

913
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,320
Speaker 1: this fascon eating too, and it was I don't know

914
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 1: how long ago, but it was like half the peede

915
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 1: into paper and all the things that I'm doing at

916
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: the moment, which was exciting, But the headline was NAT's

917
00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 1: fifty did And I'm like, isn't that fascinating? Men never

918
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 1: get that? Blah blah blah.

919
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 2: No, that's true.

920
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 1: Yes, why is it? And I'm proud of being fifty.

921
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 1: I love it, like I'm in my element, I'm feeling joy.

922
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 1: I'm more content internally externally like all the things. But

923
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, why does it need to be a headline

924
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 1: about my age or our age? As women then never

925
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 1: have that?

926
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 2: Well, there is a lot of curiosity. Is too mild

927
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 2: a word? There's an obsession with women and how we

928
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 2: age and how we look and how we navigate those things.

929
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:05,880
Speaker 2: And yeah, and is I think almost an impatience for

930
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 2: people to embrace old age a certain way so then

931
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:12,640
Speaker 2: you can be relegated.

932
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also I guess there was a time where

933
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 1: women weren't doing all of these amazing things that we

934
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 1: have the opportunities for now. We just weren't and we

935
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 1: weren't seem to be as important, you know, And I

936
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 1: think that's changed.

937
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:32,880
Speaker 2: Whereas now we live in the times and at bass

938
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 2: where a beautiful woman can get down on one knee

939
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 2: at Niagara Falls and propose to the person she loves. Correct.

940
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 1: I never thought that would I never thought that was

941
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 1: to be on my dingo card. There k.

942
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 2: So there will be another wedding.

943
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I know. I was like, I don't

944
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 1: want to get you know, I mean, of course there will.

945
00:58:56,160 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 1: Like I've met this person who has not made me

946
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 1: not shape. Like what's the word I'm trying to find?

947
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 1: Just I feel like my most real self in every way,

948
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: like the good bits, the bad bits, Like I'm so

949
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 1: vulnerable with Pip and vice versa. You know, like we

950
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: allow each other the space I hate that word allowed

951
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:22,439
Speaker 1: to Like we're giving commis, you know, we give each

952
00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 1: other the space to navigate ourselves and we're just there

953
00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 1: with each other, like what do you need? What do

954
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 1: you need? Like one thing that I love is like

955
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 1: it's because we've both got really busy work lives and stuff.

956
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:38,160
Speaker 1: We go, hey, I really need you right now to

957
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 1: have capacity for this. And that's been our new little

958
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 1: because sometimes you're like, and I'm telling you to women,

959
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:51,440
Speaker 1: there's a lot of conversations, there's a lot of emotions, a.

960
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:53,800
Speaker 2: Lot of carps of tea, a lot of carts of tea.

961
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 1: Communication, which is beautiful. But I'm like, sometimes you have

962
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 1: to actually say do you have capacity for this today?

963
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 1: And I think any relationship, it's such a beautiful thing

964
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 1: to say when you have fuzzy lives instead of like

965
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 1: about all this on for you when you're in the

966
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:13,000
Speaker 1: middle of something and you're like, oh, you know, it's

967
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 1: just it's just such a beautiful thing. And to be

968
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 1: supported in anything and everything that I do and vice versa.

969
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 1: We just we have each other's back in the most

970
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 1: beautiful way.

971
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 2: Does the wedding have a shape yet or not yet?

972
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: Gosh, not yet? No, Like I would be just as

973
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:36,200
Speaker 1: happy with like a picnic or something, you know, but

974
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 1: I think you know, so if it's so, it's such

975
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 1: a special thing for them, and that has made it

976
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 1: really special for me. Whereas before I was like, no,

977
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 1: I'm clearly not good at this marriage thing, not for me,

978
01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 1: never going to do it again.

979
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 2: Well, I actually think you. I think you were really

980
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:01,919
Speaker 2: good at that marriage thing until you.

981
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 1: Yet until I will yeah maybe, yeah, I mean you

982
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,520
Speaker 1: know what we we were together seventeen years will be bad.

983
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 1: And I think that is the mistake that a lot

984
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 1: of people do say as well as like it was

985
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:15,680
Speaker 1: a failure it was this. It's like, actually I think

986
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 1: it was a success. We have two sabulous kids, Like

987
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 1: they're so amazing, and we we have a I think

988
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 1: if you evolve, you evolve, and we've been able to

989
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 1: evolve together even though we're not together.

990
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 2: And the measure of I think the measure of the

991
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 2: success of any relationship is how loved you are. And

992
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 2: this guy is still thumping the tubs for you on tour,

993
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean, Like, that's quite extraordinary.

994
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:50,920
Speaker 1: Well, you know, he's been relationships since as well, and

995
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 1: like we just have each other's back. I think that's

996
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:56,440
Speaker 1: the most important thing. It doesn't you know. Don't get

997
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,000
Speaker 1: me wrong. It's not all like you know, roses and whatever.

998
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:00,680
Speaker 1: It's not perfect all the time.

999
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 2: No, no, I don't. I don't imagine it to be roses,

1000
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:08,520
Speaker 2: to be honest, I really don't. Round incredibly difficult.

1001
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:13,000
Speaker 1: But we've managed to. And it's not just Canon myself,

1002
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:15,440
Speaker 1: it's also Peep as well, and it's also the kids.

1003
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 1: Like everyone's made sacrifices in this space.

1004
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 2: If you project yourself into the future, even a couple

1005
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 2: of years, what does it look like, What does bass

1006
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,800
Speaker 2: look like? Or Natalie bassing Thwaite or who are you?

1007
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 1: Who am I?

1008
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 2: What are you?

1009
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 1: You know? I really feel like I've sound a nice place,

1010
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:46,320
Speaker 1: like creatively and work wise, I'm doing things that inspire.

1011
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 1: I'm not afraid to take chances, like we've got a

1012
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 1: Road Traders album coming up for the first time, you know,

1013
01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 1: like crazy stuff. We're going on tour again. Like work wise,

1014
01:02:56,720 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 1: I'm really filled with joy. And my family life is beautiful,

1015
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 1: like the relationship that my kids have with Pith and

1016
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 1: vice versa, and that we all have as like different

1017
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 1: kind of family units now whether it's the ogs or

1018
01:03:13,680 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 1: the you know, the newbies or whatever, it's like we

1019
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 1: we all the priority is always the kids. So hopefully

1020
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 1: in five years time, we you know, and it's in

1021
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 1: me I want to like I'm renting again, because you

1022
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:30,360
Speaker 1: separate and then you rent and then you're trying to

1023
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 1: figure out where you are. Is like have that home base,

1024
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:34,479
Speaker 1: like Pip and I have just put it to pulse

1025
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 1: on some land, So building that little slice of something

1026
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 1: to you know, Pip's really keen to have vegetable gardens and.

1027
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe you'll get the lamers you've always been accused

1028
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:50,120
Speaker 2: of of farming, finally become a Larma farmer.

1029
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:53,280
Speaker 1: I know, socially a Lama farmer. That would be funny.

1030
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 1: So I think that is a real priority for me.

1031
01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:00,360
Speaker 1: It's just for the kids to feel secure in a

1032
01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 1: space and to travel with them and hear and see

1033
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:09,600
Speaker 1: parts of the world that we haven't experienced yet, and

1034
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:13,520
Speaker 1: just immerse ourselves in nature as much as possible, but

1035
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:17,760
Speaker 1: still do work that is creatively stimulating and challenging and

1036
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:20,320
Speaker 1: doesn't send me into an institution.

1037
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:28,040
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, the institution is a grand old theater.

1038
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:31,200
Speaker 1: That's correct. Yeah, and then I'll and then I'll be there.

1039
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:33,880
Speaker 1: So I think it's just really coming back to self

1040
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 1: even more in the next five years and being there

1041
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:37,640
Speaker 1: for my kids.

1042
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:43,400
Speaker 2: That bass, I thank you so much for sharing yourself.

1043
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. That's the lot.

1044
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:50,720
Speaker 2: And I also can't wait to see you on stage

1045
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:54,919
Speaker 2: because it's always magnificent.

1046
01:04:55,440 --> 01:05:00,600
Speaker 1: Thank you, k I finish that so much, And to.

1047
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 2: Say I appreciate you, yeah, I don't. Well, you know,

1048
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:10,080
Speaker 2: there's a lot to be emotional about. I mean, I mean,

1049
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:17,920
Speaker 2: you started this, so that's really the well spring, isn't it.

1050
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's just a sense of lightness now that I

1051
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 1: have that I just haven't had for such a long time.

1052
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 2: There's something very moving, almost unbelievable about hearing someone talk

1053
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:40,040
Speaker 2: so openly about the way life can change course, sometimes quietly,

1054
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:45,600
Speaker 2: sometimes dramatically, often in ways we never imagined for ourselves.

1055
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 2: For Nat, this chapter has been about finding the courage

1056
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:54,520
Speaker 2: to live more truthfully, to embrace love where she found it,

1057
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:58,000
Speaker 2: and to trust that it's never too late for life

1058
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 2: to open up in a completely new direct. She writes

1059
01:06:01,480 --> 01:06:05,480
Speaker 2: about that journey in her upcoming autobiography Love Like This,

1060
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:09,040
Speaker 2: which explores not just the career many of us have

1061
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:14,520
Speaker 2: watched unfold for years, but the very personal story behind

1062
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:18,440
Speaker 2: the woman at the center of it. Thank you so

1063
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:21,800
Speaker 2: much for listening to No Filter. The executive producer of

1064
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 2: No Filter is Breed Player. The assistant producer is Coco Levine.

1065
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 2: Audio production by Jacob Brown, Video editing by Josh Green.

1066
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 2: I am Kate Langbrook, and I thank you for listening

1067
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:34,440
Speaker 2: to No Filter.