Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello, my mid friends.
Speaker 3: It's Holly here.
Speaker 2: I am jumping in to give you an episode of
Speaker 2: No Filter that is super special. My friend and Mamma Mia,
Speaker 2: out loud co host and the co creator of Mamma Mia,
Speaker 2: Big Boss Lady, Incredible woman Mia Friedman has stepped away
Speaker 2: from one of her babies. No Filter is Australia's premier
Speaker 2: interview show and she's been hosting it for ten years.
Speaker 2: Over that time, Mia has interviewed celebrities, prime ministers and
Speaker 2: lots of people whose names you wouldn't know but have the.
Speaker 3: Most unbelievable stories.
Speaker 2: She is the best interviewer and I have learnt so
Speaker 2: much from her. I've had the pleasure of hosting No
Speaker 2: Filter a few times. I can tell you it's not
Speaker 2: easy anyway. Mia has stepped away from that big job.
Speaker 2: You might have seen that, but you need to listen
Speaker 2: to what we're calling her exit interview with the woman
Speaker 2: who's replacing her, the brilliant, wonderful, incomparable Kate Langbrook. Now,
Speaker 2: Kate is a literal ray of human sunshine. She shares
Speaker 2: me as talent of being able to get people to
Speaker 2: tell you really vulnerable stories without it ever becoming too dark,
Speaker 2: too heavy. She has this trick of being able to
Speaker 2: bring the light with the shade. She's the perfect choice
Speaker 2: to replace Mia if anyone has to. And she'd been
Speaker 2: trying to pin down our mere Friedman to talk to
Speaker 2: her for a while for a proper, in depth interview,
Speaker 2: and Mia kept avoiding it until she couldn't anymore. So, mids,
Speaker 2: I want you to enjoy this last episode of No
Speaker 2: Filter that has Mia on it. It's her exit interview
Speaker 2: with Kate Langbrook. I hope you enjoy.
Speaker 1: Felt like I had noice skin. Yeah, you felt like
Speaker 1: I was just raw. I was just an open I
Speaker 1: was just all. Yeah, I had no protection. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: was just I was a friggin.
Speaker 4: Mess for Mama Maya.
Speaker 3: This is No Filter. I'm Kate lane Brook. Yes you are,
Speaker 3: Yes I am. I'm going to introduce us. Okay, I'm
Speaker 3: Kate lane Brook, and I'm joined by someone who when
Speaker 3: I have listened to No Filter over the years, I
Speaker 3: have wanted to talk to this person more than anybody else.
Speaker 1: I would like.
Speaker 3: To introduce my very special guest, Maya Friedman.
Speaker 1: I was easy to get.
Speaker 3: Wow, you were not easy to get.
Speaker 1: Well, that's also true.
Speaker 3: In fact, part of the reason I think we're sitting
Speaker 3: here is that you've been very hard to get.
Speaker 1: I like playing hard to get. Yes, we did have
Speaker 1: an aborted attempt at this a year ago, didn't we. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we did. I've been thinking about that a lot when
Speaker 1: I was thinking about today and how this time last
Speaker 1: year we sat down before you were going to host
Speaker 1: the summer summer's edition Summer Season of No Filter, to
Speaker 1: see how you liked it, because I needed a rest,
Speaker 1: and well, you were hanging by a three. I was
Speaker 1: hanging by thread. And it wasn't, in hindsight, a very
Speaker 1: good time to do an interview. And I never sit
Speaker 1: down and do long form interviews, so I hadn't for
Speaker 1: a long time before that out like years, And I
Speaker 1: sat down and you thought it went well.
Speaker 3: It was great, It was absolutely fascinating. Youth would a
Speaker 3: well at the time as well. Well, I didn't really
Speaker 3: think about it a message afterwards. I tried to cancel
Speaker 3: a few times.
Speaker 1: You did try to cancel anyway, This is all boring,
Speaker 1: but this is all behind the scenes stuff. But I
Speaker 1: pulled the pin because it wasn't When I say it
Speaker 1: wasn't me at my best. I just I was a
Speaker 1: hot mess, And I mean I'm always a hot mess,
Speaker 1: but I was in a particularly fragile state this time
Speaker 1: last year, and I didn't I just didn't particularly want
Speaker 1: to put that out there because I was still in
Speaker 1: the middle of being in that fragile state.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because you were processing something, which I know at
Speaker 3: the time, but I could tell when I was talking
Speaker 3: to you, And do you remember the question that tricked
Speaker 3: your trigger? Do you remember what it was? I'll say
Speaker 3: it to you now because because you're in such a
Speaker 3: vastly different place I said to you, because I've been
Speaker 3: reading your book. I've read your book, and this was
Speaker 3: you were on the cusp then and waiting for strife
Speaker 3: to come out. So there was a lot of there
Speaker 3: were a lot of shadows that came in with you.
Speaker 1: I felt like I had no skin. Yeah, you were
Speaker 1: I was just raw. I was just an open I
Speaker 1: was just all yeah, I had no protection.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you were still as you do and as
Speaker 3: you have to do. You were still navigating your way
Speaker 3: through this world because you've got so many, you know,
Speaker 3: plates spinning at all times, and if you drop the plate,
Speaker 3: there's a world on each of those plates. So I
Speaker 3: get the feeling you're very conscious of not dropping those
Speaker 3: plates because you don't want to damage the people that
Speaker 3: are on the plate.
Speaker 1: That's very That's such an insightful observation, and you're right.
Speaker 1: It's like, I think I probably had some kind of breakdown.
Speaker 1: I had a sort of a slow moving, ongoing breakdown
Speaker 1: over the last around that time, before that and probably
Speaker 1: through to about halfway through this year, which weirdly makes
Speaker 1: me laugh. Well, it's like, let's just crack into it. Hey,
Speaker 1: we haven't even have no small talk.
Speaker 3: Well, well you may as well laugh.
Speaker 1: Oh no, but it is funny. It's like, because I
Speaker 1: had this breakdown and I probably should have taken myself
Speaker 1: away somewhere, yes, but I couldn't. I just couldn't. You
Speaker 1: Hosting the summer season of No Filter was the first
Speaker 1: tentative step that I'd taken from stepping back from really
Speaker 1: anything since I wasn't the editor of Mamamea anymore. I know,
Speaker 1: So yeah it was it was, Yeah, I was just
Speaker 1: I was a frigging mass.
Speaker 3: Because you know, those of us who really just if
Speaker 3: we knew nothing about you other than your output, if
Speaker 3: we knew nothing other than that, that is extraordinary and
Speaker 3: that is exhausting to think about. So you were exhausted
Speaker 3: and this is this is the thing. And I wasn't
Speaker 3: doing it. It wasn't a gotcha, it wasn't whatever. It was
Speaker 3: like a genuine because I just wanted to work out
Speaker 3: what your driver was, what your engine, what what your
Speaker 3: engine takes. And I said to you, because I'd read
Speaker 3: your book, and I said, it's really interesting because we
Speaker 3: talked about whether or not you ever reflect on the
Speaker 3: amazing thing that you built things and you said no.
Speaker 3: And then I said, you know what's interesting in your book?
Speaker 3: And you talk about work that's still got to be
Speaker 3: done and you know what you could have done better?
Speaker 3: And I said, but you never talk about the concept
Speaker 3: of happiness. Do you remember that?
Speaker 1: Is that all I can say? I can feel? Yeah,
Speaker 1: done again? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: And it was it was just a yeah. And then
Speaker 3: that was like, I don't know, It's like someone pulled
Speaker 3: a little stitch, the last stitch that you were hanging by,
Speaker 3: and then you kind of just unraveled a little bit.
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, a lot. Yeah, how to we cry? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's true. It's like happiness kind of doesn't doesn't really
Speaker 1: when you're running a business, it's not. Actually, that's a
Speaker 1: luxury that sort of sits on the side and not
Speaker 1: to be matter. Like, I also love my work. I
Speaker 1: think it would be easier if I didn't. You know,
Speaker 1: I didn't. If I didn't love my work, I would
Speaker 1: go I'm so burnt out, I'm so exhausted, I need
Speaker 1: to back away. But firstly, when you've built something this size,
Speaker 1: it's hard to extract yourself.
Speaker 3: But also I love it.
Speaker 1: I love what I do like I love what I do.
Speaker 3: And it's it's a.
Speaker 1: Quo kind of working out when it's time to call
Speaker 1: time on certainty, okay.
Speaker 3: Which has led us to this today. How do you
Speaker 3: work that out? Because I mean, you are apparently the
Speaker 3: meya in Mum and Me, well I used to be.
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of people who wouldn't even
Speaker 1: know who I am anymore, who might experience Mum and
Speaker 1: mea through one of our either podcasts not no filter,
Speaker 1: or written content or social content that they might consume
Speaker 1: or something, and they wouldn't even know, particularly younger people
Speaker 1: gen z Ds and millennials who wouldn't even know who
Speaker 1: I was, Which is the way it has always which
Speaker 1: is what we've always wanted. Jason and I Jesus when
Speaker 1: we first started. Our last seventeen years have been about
Speaker 1: slowly backing me out.
Speaker 3: That's a long that's a long reverse.
Speaker 1: That's a long driveway, sure is.
Speaker 3: That's when you're back into the fence.
Speaker 1: Many which I've done many times, many times. My old
Speaker 1: producer on No Filter, Eliza Ratliffe, knows that I've been
Speaker 1: trying to quit No Filter for two years, and not
Speaker 1: because I don't love it, but just because it takes
Speaker 1: a lot, Like it takes a lot, Yes, it's.
Speaker 3: A lot, and for I mean people listening to it,
Speaker 3: I think they know intuitively, even if they haven't thought
Speaker 3: in a more academic since about how much it takes
Speaker 3: that if you're interviewing someone who's got a body of work,
Speaker 3: you pay them the courtesy of familiarizing yourself with their
Speaker 3: body of work.
Speaker 1: Well, that can be books, what is it can be
Speaker 1: TV show yes, yeah, or all the different things, and
Speaker 1: even just getting to understand who someone is like to
Speaker 1: prepare for an interview, My process is just very immersive,
Speaker 1: and I can only do it within about twenty four
Speaker 1: hours of actually sitting down with them.
Speaker 3: So because you've done so many new things over the
Speaker 3: last I don't know, Like you said, there's a plethora
Speaker 3: of new podcasts, it kind of feels like there's another
Speaker 3: You're going to another level, which might be the level
Speaker 3: at which you kind of get to.
Speaker 1: I think the business is getting bigger, but I want
Speaker 1: to get smaller, right if that makes sense?
Speaker 3: It does make sense, But do you know how to
Speaker 3: do that? Well, that's what the.
Speaker 1: Last sort of eighteen months to two years has been.
Speaker 1: It's been setting us up for Jason and I to
Speaker 1: be able to accelerate that withers like I don't want
Speaker 1: to completely no buildings to go okay, there wasn't an
Speaker 1: option until sort of the last eighteen months. So that
Speaker 1: it's been finding the right people. When new CEO, when
Speaker 1: you chief content officer, we've got a new chief revenue officer,
Speaker 1: all these different people to put in to say, okay,
Speaker 1: we now feel able to step back further to a
Speaker 1: point where we don't have to run the whole anymore.
Speaker 1: That they can take the baton from us. And you know,
Speaker 1: you want to hire people who are smarter than you.
Speaker 1: You want to work with people who are smarter than you.
Speaker 3: But after a while, when you've done something for a while,
Speaker 3: it's hard to find those people because you've been in
Speaker 3: the space.
Speaker 1: It's really hard to find those people. And also, I'm free.
Speaker 1: So you know the reason why I'm like, yeah, oh me,
Speaker 1: you can do it. Me, you can do it. Me,
Speaker 1: you can do it, and I'll put up my hand
Speaker 1: is that I am free and I'm available, of course,
Speaker 1: and you know, hiring really good people like you and
Speaker 1: other and the executives that we've got, and all the
Speaker 1: people that work in our business, including our head of content,
Speaker 1: that costs a lot of money, and you have to
Speaker 1: be you know, people see the front, but they don't know.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like the dark gliding across the pond.
Speaker 1: They don't see what's going on under the surface. And
Speaker 1: there's a lot going on under the surface.
Speaker 3: It's like my husband who own nightclubs, and people always think, oh,
Speaker 3: you must get cheap booze. You don't, you don't. You're
Speaker 3: actually get it cheaper at Dan Murphy's. But also they
Speaker 3: don't know about rent and people and insurance and Capron
Speaker 3: la la Lah exactly exactly. So what Okay, So here's
Speaker 3: the thing with you and you're seventeen year reversing out
Speaker 3: of the driveway. But because it's not just a business,
Speaker 3: it's also your family. So that is just another mind boggle.
Speaker 3: Like when I was here yesterday and you were arriving
Speaker 3: with Luca and Jesse Jesse, which was gorgeous, and then
Speaker 3: someone made the joke was at Luca that you just
Speaker 3: arrived from the Succession helicopter, because it's like it was.
Speaker 1: Like we bumped into each other in the car and
Speaker 1: they drove in together. It's like, yeah, it's a family business.
Speaker 1: Like there's one hundred and fifty people in it. But
Speaker 1: Jason and I are the co founders, Luca is the
Speaker 1: chief operating and product officer, and you know my friend
Speaker 1: and daughter in law Jesse. I posed a podcast with her,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, everyone's various people are involved in the business.
Speaker 1: I mean, my two youngest children just want to get
Speaker 1: away from it. They'll probably get sacked into it too.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that that means that it's not a job
Speaker 1: you can easily quit.
Speaker 3: But also aside from the job, you've also as a
Speaker 3: human and as a woman and as a mother. You've
Speaker 3: become a mother in law and that's and a grandmother
Speaker 3: and that's all happened at the same time as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that last year was a real
Speaker 1: unraveling for me, Like on every level of my identity.
Speaker 1: I turned, I turned, how old, did I added? Whatever
Speaker 1: I did? Fifty three blurd, I became a grandmother. My
Speaker 1: eldest son got married, Like all of these things happened.
Speaker 1: My youngest child sort of, you know, got beyond that
Speaker 1: age where you know, he turned sixteen. So it's like
Speaker 1: I officially moved into that age of your kids are
Speaker 1: growing up in a way, having their own families and
Speaker 1: what does that mean? And at the same time, the
Speaker 1: world is telling you you're irrelevant, you're invisible, you're a carrying.
Speaker 3: Your socks are the wrong length, your socks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're a loser, all of those things. And then
Speaker 1: it's like, well and then what do you do with
Speaker 1: your face and what like? And I just I just
Speaker 1: lost it, Like I just felt really it was like
Speaker 1: you know when you're doing a software upgrade and you
Speaker 1: get the like the spinning wheel, right.
Speaker 3: The wheel was just spinning.
Speaker 1: It was like the spinning wheel. It's like it was
Speaker 1: before this new phase, I was just really lost. I
Speaker 1: was lost at work, I was lost at home, I
Speaker 1: was lost in with my place in the world, all
Speaker 1: of those things. And part of the reason that I
Speaker 1: also wanted to find the right person to hand no
Speaker 1: Filter over to was I wanted to make some room
Speaker 1: creatively to do some other things, and there just wasn't
Speaker 1: any room. And I used to think that I could
Speaker 1: just take on more and more and more and more.
Speaker 1: And last year I realized, oh, I'm breaking, I'm broken. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I realized that, Okay, I can't. So I had
Speaker 1: to make some space.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and how okay. So, in my experience, when you
Speaker 3: find yourself in situations like that, if you don't make
Speaker 3: the decision, your body will make the decision for you.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
Speaker 3: So it's like actors will often say, if they've been
Speaker 3: in like a long run of a play, they get
Speaker 3: sick on the last nine they had their rap party
Speaker 3: and then they got the down. So you had to
Speaker 3: call it before your body called it.
Speaker 1: My body's tried to call it for a really long time,
Speaker 1: like you know. Jason was talking to someone the other
Speaker 1: day and said, Maya has passed the point of burnout
Speaker 1: so many times because it's like it's just not been
Speaker 1: an option. So it's been I've gone past burnout, past burnout,
Speaker 1: past burnout, past burnout. And I was sick quite a
Speaker 1: lot in twenty twenty four. I just got like you know,
Speaker 1: usual winter thing. Lots of people have just got sick.
Speaker 1: My immune system has been okay, but I've also been
Speaker 1: going through perimenopause and then menopause, and so it's been
Speaker 1: all infusing to know what yes exactly, and I just
Speaker 1: I recover very very easily. And I've got a really
Speaker 1: big engine, I think because I'm quite also forgetful, and
Speaker 1: I just forget that I'm exhausted, Like don't. I don't
Speaker 1: marinate in things long, like.
Speaker 3: I slate well really well, or what time to go
Speaker 3: to bed.
Speaker 1: I probably I look at my phone until maybe fifteen
Speaker 1: seconds before I'm before I'm asleep, Like I'll just look
Speaker 1: at it. I'm not one of those people that need
Speaker 1: to do special sleep hyjen and everything. I'm fortunate in
Speaker 1: that way. And then I will just literally turn my
Speaker 1: phone off, put it on the floor, and within fifteen
Speaker 1: seconds go sleep.
Speaker 3: And how long do you sleep? For?
Speaker 1: Probably about seven between six to seven hours. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: wake up pretty early.
Speaker 3: Do you wake up and you're full of ideas? Or
Speaker 3: do you wake up slowly and step into the day.
Speaker 1: Oh I've never been like a jump out of bed person.
Speaker 3: No, but sometimes I wake up and I'm like boo,
Speaker 3: and it's like, all these things have happened in my sleep.
Speaker 1: Oh no, all of those things happen in my way. Okay, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: So often, what I've become very aware of is that
Speaker 1: I wake up, open my eyes, pick up my phone,
Speaker 1: and just saturate myself with stimulation. I think that's probably
Speaker 1: what most of us do, and from my brain it
Speaker 1: needs that. But I've also become aware that that's not
Speaker 1: a very gentle weight away here, not a brutal pretty brutal.
Speaker 3: Particularly if you're looking at news.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know. The first thing I'll do is
Speaker 1: look at my WhatsApp and if any of the chats
Speaker 1: have gone off, like you know, sometimes I wake up
Speaker 1: and there'll be thirty messages and it might be that
Speaker 1: just one of my group chats has you know, gone
Speaker 1: off night about whatever, but it also could be breaking
Speaker 1: news that I've missed because you know, someone else was
Speaker 1: up before me the day starts hard and then on
Speaker 1: weekends Luca brings over Luna. So you're a great waiter. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wake up to her, you know, I get up
Speaker 1: and she's she arrives pretty soon after. So yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 1: I'm not a sort of lying around person. Like my
Speaker 1: brain just goes all the time, which is exhausting in itself.
Speaker 1: So you know how you were saying, Jason said you'd
Speaker 1: gone beyond burnout so many times.
Speaker 3: How did that manifest? Then?
Speaker 1: Great question? Just despair. I think just like cry most days.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'd crying meetings, which is bad.
Speaker 5: Sometimes I would out of just out of just full, full, overwhelmed.
Speaker 1: It's just overwhelmed, overwhelm, overwhelm, overwhelmed. I'd feel just overwhelmed
Speaker 1: a lot of the time, and then i'd have to,
Speaker 1: you know, come in here and I'd lift because I
Speaker 1: had to live sure.
Speaker 3: And also there's distraction then, yeah, and distraction is just
Speaker 3: so gratefully received when you're like that.
Speaker 1: I love coming in into the office and I love
Speaker 1: you know, I love recording the podcast that Mummy are
Speaker 1: out loud and then no filter would often be a
Speaker 1: lot because when you have to meet, like the conversations
Speaker 1: that you have on this show, not that they're always
Speaker 1: bleak or sad, but they're always deep and you have
Speaker 1: it's called no filter, correct, So you have to meet
Speaker 1: someone there every single time, and it's really intense. But
Speaker 1: I have this thing where I walk out of the
Speaker 1: studio and I won't be able to remember anything. So
Speaker 1: my poor producers would like try to sit down with
Speaker 1: me afterwards and like deef, and I'm like, I don't
Speaker 1: remember anything.
Speaker 3: It's weird.
Speaker 1: It's like I'm so present at them at that time.
Speaker 1: But I've got a very efficient clearing system, like my
Speaker 1: hard drives just constantly being deleted, delete, delate, delete.
Speaker 3: Where you don't have the storage, I.
Speaker 1: Don't have the story, so I'll walk out and then
Speaker 1: I won't I actually won't ever want to listen to
Speaker 1: it again. I want to do ever talk about it again.
Speaker 1: And this show requires a lot of you know, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of you've got to take really good care
Speaker 1: of the people that you interview, and you've got to
Speaker 1: follow through on that process. And I just wasn't able
Speaker 1: to do that justice anymore. And I felt what I
Speaker 1: love is actually I want to listen to you interview
Speaker 1: people like I loved over summer.
Speaker 3: I love the girl I interviewing right now, your lover
Speaker 3: mayor Friedman. I know you're desperate to escape, but you
Speaker 3: shall not.
Speaker 1: I know where the exits are.
Speaker 3: Yeah, no you don't. We've changed them. You're staying put.
Speaker 1: I think you're the best interviewer in Australia. I think
Speaker 1: you are.
Speaker 3: Oh calm down, you have because you're playful.
Speaker 1: Even when we did that interview which we ended up
Speaker 1: not publishing, you will so seamlessly because I was being
Speaker 1: in but I was also observing you, not to judge you,
Speaker 1: but just because I was interested in your practice. And
Speaker 1: you did that really tricky thing which you took me
Speaker 1: from tears and then you knew exactly when to just
Speaker 1: bridge to something funny and we both laughed and complete
Speaker 1: gear chap.
Speaker 3: But you know, it's an interesting.
Speaker 1: It's really rare. Most people can't do that, but.
Speaker 3: In friendships you do it all the time. People do
Speaker 3: it all the time. That's how you get your friends through,
Speaker 3: and that's how you navigate those moments where someone's really raw.
Speaker 3: And then you're like, it's true. You know, I'm curious
Speaker 3: about Jay saying you've gone beyond burnout so many times
Speaker 3: and because of your relationship with him as a husband
Speaker 3: and a lover and a business partner.
Speaker 1: I know everyone says, I don't know how you could
Speaker 1: work with your partner. I never could.
Speaker 3: What do you say?
Speaker 1: I would have said the same thing. I would have
Speaker 1: said the same thing, But wasn't.
Speaker 3: Your intention was?
Speaker 1: It was not my idea and it was not my intention.
Speaker 1: But I certainly wouldn't be here with Mum and MEA
Speaker 1: wouldn't be what it was. No, if it wasn't for
Speaker 1: the two of us, like he wouldn't have done it
Speaker 1: without me, and I certainly wouldn't have done it without him.
Speaker 1: And I wasn't. I'd already been doing it by myself
Speaker 1: for eighteen months, and i'd, you know, made no money
Speaker 1: for eighteen months. I'd built an audience, but I didn't
Speaker 1: know how to monetize it. I didn't have the skills
Speaker 1: or the bandwidth to do it. And I didn't have
Speaker 1: the vision that he did for the business. It's not
Speaker 1: I've got a business brain, but not the big picture
Speaker 1: business and not the you know, I can't I won't
Speaker 1: say I can't read a spreadsheet. I remember Zoe Foster
Speaker 1: Blake said to me that when she first started go
Speaker 1: to and she has a couple of business partners co partners,
Speaker 1: and she said she'd sit in meetings at first and
Speaker 1: be like, I don't understand the numbers, and then she's like,
Speaker 1: and then I realized that wasn't cute anymore. I don't
Speaker 1: do it to be cute. But I also like, I
Speaker 1: just can't things that. I mean, I suppose I could,
Speaker 1: and she has had to teach herself, but there's no
Speaker 1: way I could do what I have to do if
Speaker 1: I also had to do the other stuff. And I'm
Speaker 1: just not that good at the other stuff. Okay, but
Speaker 1: how good are you at being a wife? In terrible
Speaker 1: of all? Right, so bad, so bad.
Speaker 3: Let's just have a moment's pause for.
Speaker 1: He's very He's the nurture in this in our right.
Speaker 1: It's not that I don't nurture the kids and I
Speaker 1: don't love him. I love him. Maddling. We've just celebrated
Speaker 1: our twenty fifth wedding anniversary.
Speaker 3: How did you celebrate for the first time?
Speaker 1: We remembered, Oh, and we went out to dinner and
Speaker 1: we've ever done that before. Really, we're not like that,
Speaker 1: like when we don't give each other presents we're not
Speaker 1: present people. It's not our love language. We're real homebodies.
Speaker 1: We love staying at home. So I often think that
Speaker 1: if you've got a certain if every relationship has a
Speaker 1: certain amount of petrol in the tank, yes, until it
Speaker 1: sort of just runs out. Yeah, working together just you
Speaker 1: you know, uses up that petrol.
Speaker 3: Well, that's why that's why I ask. Yeah, I can't
Speaker 3: even conceive of Like earlier last year, I was kind
Speaker 3: of in between managers and Peter, my husband who I
Speaker 3: also love, who I've been with for twenty one years.
Speaker 3: He was kind of helping out for a while, and
Speaker 3: it was really terrible. Not because he's terrible. He's really
Speaker 3: good at business and he's whatever sexy, but the marrying that, Yeah,
Speaker 3: marrying a thing. The fantasy is that you're going to
Speaker 3: go in like do you ever go into Jason's office,
Speaker 3: shut the door behind you and just kind of take
Speaker 3: you because that's great.
Speaker 1: Can you imagine if we ever like touch each other
Speaker 1: in meetings or something, Everyone's like ew, mum and dad, ew. No,
Speaker 1: we don't do that. And that's why it's probably been
Speaker 1: the best thing for our business and probably the worst
Speaker 1: thing for our relationship being in business although I've also
Speaker 1: seen relationships where both couples are pulling in different directions.
Speaker 1: Either one of them has a big job and the
Speaker 1: other one doesn't, or they've both got big jobs or whatever,
Speaker 1: and there's that constant competitiveness of whose job is more
Speaker 1: important or whose role is more important. And a lot
Speaker 1: of actors, if actors go out with other actors, they
Speaker 1: have a very similar kind of imagine what that would
Speaker 1: be like, terrible madness to go out with them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, for us, we've at least
Speaker 1: always been pulling in the same direction, you know, and
Speaker 1: in that way it's very efficient. So we've been able
Speaker 1: to tag team with kids and with work. But it
Speaker 1: means that you can't, like a couple of years ago,
Speaker 1: Jace had or tried to have a sabbatical for three months,
Speaker 1: and he could have a sabbatical from the business, but
Speaker 1: he couldn't have a sabbatical.
Speaker 3: From his wife, who is also part of the business.
Speaker 1: And so when I would ring him and you know,
Speaker 1: want to talk about something or be upset about something
Speaker 1: that was really hard.
Speaker 3: So it's like he.
Speaker 1: Couldn't get away from me and from me. And since
Speaker 1: we've appointed a new CEO this year and he has
Speaker 1: moved into this role of executive chairman and he is not.
Speaker 1: We don't work together day to day anymore. That's been
Speaker 1: so good. Oh my god, we've rediscovered each other. Wonderful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been wonderful.
Speaker 3: Because there are aspects that you I mean, you just
Speaker 3: can't servi uce all parts at the same time.
Speaker 1: And it's really hard to be in meetings with someone
Speaker 1: you know, so like you behave a certain way at
Speaker 1: home and like you know, when you're partner shitting you,
Speaker 1: you give them a look across the table or you whatever,
Speaker 1: fucked and then we're in meetings and some people here
Speaker 1: have been in those meetings, you know, many years ago
Speaker 1: when we would have discussions, we'd have Barney's about work,
Speaker 1: and they'd be sort of uncomfortable. People get used to
Speaker 1: it pretty quickly. But one time I had to say,
Speaker 1: you know that other people can see the look that
Speaker 1: you're giving me across the table, and he would have
Speaker 1: to say the same to me, because you kind of
Speaker 1: just forget that you've got to behave in a way
Speaker 1: in front of other people. Yes, and it's yeah, it's
Speaker 1: really it's been really challenging. But I'm very proud that
Speaker 1: we are still married, yes, and that we have continued
Speaker 1: to build the business together. And hopefully now that we're
Speaker 1: able to, you know, bring in new people and take
Speaker 1: a step back, it means that we'll be able to
Speaker 1: be married again and also just have some space from
Speaker 1: each other. Yes, you know, y like, it's quite nice
Speaker 1: to get home and go how is your day and
Speaker 1: not know, yeah, you know, that's quite nice looking forward
Speaker 1: to seeing each other.
Speaker 3: Okay, So if your plan is to make some more
Speaker 3: time for yourself, really, and how will you feel that?
Speaker 3: And it's not gonna be empty time if I.
Speaker 4: Know you No, But is that.
Speaker 3: Commensurate with what Jace wants for himself as well?
Speaker 1: The difference is that he loves Mum and Mia and
Speaker 1: our core purpose being to make the world a better
Speaker 1: place for women girls actually came from him. I couldn't
Speaker 1: articulate it, which is very embarrassing because I'm the writer
Speaker 1: in the family, but he was the one. And I
Speaker 1: remember he wrote it down on a piece of paper
Speaker 1: and he's like, I think it's this, And because I
Speaker 1: was more just like, it's the vibe, yes, the women
Speaker 1: and the vibe, because I've like it's the water ice women.
Speaker 1: I couldn't even articulate it, but he could. So he
Speaker 1: obviously feels very strongly about our core purpose, but he's
Speaker 1: got lots of interests and hobbies and things that he
Speaker 1: wants to do outside of Mumma behre well. The problem
Speaker 1: is that my hobby is my work, which is I
Speaker 1: think being one of the big drivers of Muma mea.
Speaker 1: But it makes it very hard to rest, it really does.
Speaker 1: And so for me, the time that I get closest
Speaker 1: to resting is I have a day a week with Luna,
Speaker 1: which being a grandmother is so different to being a
Speaker 1: mother in that you just can be very present because
Speaker 1: it's like one day. I know people say that, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, I never understood it.
Speaker 3: Yeah I don't understand. I still don't understand that.
Speaker 1: You know, it is all of the same amount of love.
Speaker 1: It's actually really weird because it's all of the same
Speaker 1: amount of love, except they don't live in your house,
Speaker 1: which is kind of wonderful, but.
Speaker 3: Also you're coming to them every time.
Speaker 1: But there's no mental load. There's not one bit of
Speaker 1: mental load. There's no guilt, you know, like I'm not like,
Speaker 1: oh no, what if she hasn't eaten enough vegetables. Yeah right,
Speaker 1: bake beans again like she'ing a bickie.
Speaker 3: Oh else likes just love. It's just love.
Speaker 1: And it's not like she stayed the night. She stays
Speaker 1: night a lot now, but the first time she stayed
Speaker 1: the night, and if she does stay and she wakes
Speaker 1: up in the night when she was a little bit younger,
Speaker 1: and you know that feeling when your baby wakes up
Speaker 1: in the night, or you toddally wakes up the night
Speaker 1: your kid, You've got like there's a lot of feelings.
Speaker 1: It's like irritation and resentment and a bit of panic
Speaker 1: and what if this never what if I never sleep?
Speaker 3: But then you're also plased to see them in.
Speaker 1: A weird well yeah, and then I scanned my body
Speaker 1: for any feelings of any negative feelings. Not one. It
Speaker 1: was just like, yay, we get to sniff a little face,
Speaker 1: I get to like give her a little cuddle and
Speaker 1: give her a bottle, and you, oh, that's been fraught.
Speaker 1: She calls me nana, so I thought I didn't want
Speaker 1: to be called nana. And whole anxiety, which I think
Speaker 1: is really common in people when they become particularly grandmothers,
Speaker 1: because it's about your identity and grand like. It suddenly
Speaker 1: seems very important not to be called nana or grandma,
Speaker 1: because I think what it meant for us was a
Speaker 1: little old lady with gray hair whose life was over.
Speaker 1: And we don't like that. I don't, you know, like me,
Speaker 1: So I don't. Really. This is when I was going
Speaker 1: through my whole identity crisis. I didn't want to be that,
Speaker 1: and so it became very important to not be called
Speaker 1: that and to be called maybe.
Speaker 3: Me and me, I would decide, babies decide, don't.
Speaker 1: Well, she just didn't call me anything. But what you
Speaker 1: don't realize is that, for the first I don't know
Speaker 1: until they can talk, it's not about what they call you,
Speaker 1: or not about what you call yourself. It's about what
Speaker 1: everyone else calls you.
Speaker 3: Because it's like.
Speaker 1: Here, you know, let's here's nana or here you go
Speaker 1: to And so every time they'd say grandma, I die
Speaker 1: a little bit inside, right, And then I just realized,
Speaker 1: stop fucking making trying to make me happen. It's not
Speaker 1: going to happen. No one's calling you that. It's like
Speaker 1: trying to give yourself a nickname.
Speaker 3: It doesn't work.
Speaker 1: Yes, And so I just went, you know, I loved
Speaker 1: my nana so much. My kids call my mum Nana.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'll be Nana. There's only two people who
Speaker 1: could be Nana, and I'll be one of them. And
Speaker 1: then I had my latest neurosis was that she also
Speaker 1: called Jesse's mum Nana.
Speaker 3: Oh, so how do you different?
Speaker 1: I went into a panic and I'm like, then I
Speaker 1: tried to get her a call because Jesse's mom's so
Speaker 1: so cruizy, and so I'm like, maybe call her Nan.
Speaker 1: And I was trying to control what she called her
Speaker 1: and was just like, knock yourself out, whatever you want
Speaker 1: me to be called. But now she just I tried
Speaker 1: to get her to call and Nan, but she won't,
Speaker 1: and so we're both Nana and I'm just like, who
Speaker 1: gives a shit?
Speaker 3: And you can tell he well, lots.
Speaker 1: Of people I said it on out that and lots
Speaker 1: of it was very funny conversation. Everyone was telling me
Speaker 1: how they they had two nana's, but one was like.
Speaker 3: NANAA husband's got old Nana, We've got old Nana, Lil,
Speaker 3: We've got Nana Ree his mom and Marie.
Speaker 1: So kids work it out. They know the difference. But
Speaker 1: that speaks to my insecurity because I'm all about leaderboards,
Speaker 1: and I was worried that I would be low down
Speaker 1: on the leaderboard of who she loved. This is how
Speaker 1: I think about things.
Speaker 3: Do you think that, because I honestly, if there was
Speaker 3: anyone to delight a child, it's your elf and energy.
Speaker 3: Like seriously, well, maybe it's in security.
Speaker 1: It's insecurity, I guess. But it's also how I make
Speaker 1: sense of the world because I'm sort of chaotic and
Speaker 1: I need to I like rules, and I like to
Speaker 1: know where I stand. I like feedback, I like I
Speaker 1: like knowing things. So I was very much well at
Speaker 1: the top of the leaderboards Jesse and then Luca, and
Speaker 1: then Claire, Jesse's twin sister, and then Anne, Jesse's mom,
Speaker 1: and then maybe me. So I'm like, okay, I'm number five.
Speaker 1: So Anne suggested that I be called Fine, and I
Speaker 1: was like, I got really upset about that, And because anyway,
Speaker 1: it's just I told you often how two years like
Speaker 1: it's been, I've been all over the shop and I've
Speaker 1: not known who I am.
Speaker 3: I think because I've seen you a little bit fleetingly
Speaker 3: in those times and always lovely. Actually but it's felt
Speaker 3: to me like you're rebuilding. Yes, that's exactly right.
Speaker 1: I could see it like being in a crystalis yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and not that I was a caterpillar and now in butterfly.
Speaker 1: It's not like that, but it was like it was
Speaker 1: a different phase of my life and a different you know,
Speaker 1: it doesn't You don't just go from one chapter to
Speaker 1: the next chapter.
Speaker 3: And transitions are very painful and no matter where they are,
Speaker 3: A new job, new, like anything's.
Speaker 5: Very hard, very hard you leave behind and fear. But
Speaker 5: stepping into the unknown is always uncertainty. I'm not good
Speaker 5: with any of that. I'm really not good with. Butmala,
Speaker 5: I don't.
Speaker 3: I think most people aren't. I just think you expect
Speaker 3: more of yourself. I get very impatient. I'm like, what
Speaker 3: am I going to again? I know on the side,
Speaker 3: are we there yet? Are we there yet? Am I
Speaker 3: in this new phase yet? Do I understand who I am?
Speaker 4: Yet?
Speaker 1: And it was years of not not knowing what I
Speaker 1: wanted not knowing, and I just find that very inefficient.
Speaker 3: Mayor Friedman, please stay till after this weebreak twisted my own.
Speaker 3: I'm just thinking about what you've built and I mean,
Speaker 3: you built it for women, women and girls, but I
Speaker 3: think the woman and the girl that you built it
Speaker 3: for was yourself, Because do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: If you think about if you think about the conversations
Speaker 3: that happen every day, in the things that everyone exposed
Speaker 3: to and that you bring to people, and the little
Speaker 3: nugget of cheese or the dead mouse that the cat
Speaker 3: leaves at the doorstep, all of that seems like it
Speaker 3: might have been for you to find yourself or to
Speaker 3: bring something to yourself.
Speaker 1: Yes, I think because I am so basic, I'm very common,
Speaker 1: and I say that in a way like I'm very
Speaker 1: i am very ordinary, And the things that I feel
Speaker 1: and the things that I'm interested in are not the
Speaker 1: things that everybody feels and they're interested in. But a
Speaker 1: lot of people feel and are interested in those things too.
Speaker 1: So often I'm always an observer of my own behavior,
Speaker 1: and I know that when my behavior is shifting from
Speaker 1: a consumer point of view, a content likely that correct.
Speaker 1: So like when I didn't know how to start a
Speaker 1: business and I started a lady startup, or when I
Speaker 1: was interested in perimenopause but there was nothing out there
Speaker 1: and it felt very uncool and we started the very
Speaker 1: we did the very Perry Summit, and it's kind of like,
Speaker 1: what's next, What's next?
Speaker 3: What is next? I'm working on something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm working on a little secret thing. Oh and
Speaker 1: it's not secret because I'm Bankoi. It's secret because I
Speaker 1: just want to see what it is like. One of
Speaker 1: the things I find I'm not suited to being in
Speaker 1: a business of this size. I'm just not. I don't
Speaker 1: have the patience for it. I don't have I just
Speaker 1: I don't want to be in meetings and I have
Speaker 1: to go through layers and you need all of that
Speaker 1: at a company this size. You need processes and layers
Speaker 1: and strategies and schedules. I just want to work on
Speaker 1: a little couple of little things and it's still a
Speaker 1: bit embryonic. And until it's done, I don't commercialize it.
Speaker 1: I don't want to and don't jinx it. It's not
Speaker 1: even jinxing it. It's just that I'll kind of lose
Speaker 1: energy for it and lose interest in it because because
Speaker 1: you know, the economics of making content is that it'll
Speaker 1: have to be sold and it will have to be sponsored,
Speaker 1: and we'll have to you know, we'll have to work
Speaker 1: out when in the schedule it should happen, and blah
Speaker 1: blah blah, and all of that I completely understand because
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people don't get that content
Speaker 1: costs money to create.
Speaker 3: You know why now, because we're used to getting it
Speaker 3: for nothing. Yes, people don't even buy a newspaper anymore.
Speaker 1: But do you know what we pay money for water?
Speaker 1: We understand that water cost money, and yet content is
Speaker 1: really undervalued. And I think that's both the best and
Speaker 1: worst thing about the Internet. You know, it's democratized who
Speaker 1: can make content, which I think is wonderful. I couldn't
Speaker 1: have built a media company without the Internet with Jays,
Speaker 1: but you know I couldn't. I couldn't buy a TV
Speaker 1: license or you know, start my own magazine, buy a
Speaker 1: TV license.
Speaker 3: Now these yeah, exactly, get one for a hundred bars.
Speaker 1: But that's been good. But the bad thing is that
Speaker 1: people think that it doesn't take time and effort and
Speaker 1: expertise to create good quality Yes.
Speaker 3: And this is good quality content, really good quality content.
Speaker 3: Like if I think about the things that I've got
Speaker 3: through Mama Mia, and I've not been the most avid
Speaker 3: consumer of anything online, particularly not through those years of
Speaker 3: intense child rearing and stuff and leukemia and all of that.
Speaker 3: So I wasn't.
Speaker 1: I've just been like, a, how do you think that
Speaker 1: that experience of having your eldest get leukemia? How do
Speaker 1: you think, because I know you're not a very online person, No,
Speaker 1: how do you think it would have been made either
Speaker 1: better or worse by having the internet at that time?
Speaker 1: Both for community, because I know a lot of people
Speaker 1: who've either the loved ones with cancer of cancer themselves
Speaker 1: who whether it's group chats, you know, what was your
Speaker 1: village through that time. Because you're a said to keep
Speaker 1: it secret.
Speaker 3: Yes, well secret, not to our friends and not to
Speaker 3: our neighbors, not to in fact, most of the people
Speaker 3: in the media knew about it.
Speaker 1: I found that extraordinary. I didn't know about it, and
Speaker 1: not that we knew each other well.
Speaker 3: Then, and I was in Melbourne, you're in city, yes, But.
Speaker 1: The fact that the media, particularly the Melbourne media, knew
Speaker 1: and it was such an open secret and everybody kept
Speaker 1: it quiet four years, I thought was such a tribute
Speaker 1: to how you're the esteem in which you're held in
Speaker 1: our industry because that was a big story.
Speaker 3: It was a big story, really, and at the time
Speaker 3: I think I mean talk about hanging by three, and
Speaker 3: I don't think I had the energy to even address it.
Speaker 3: And it was twofold. It was partly that it was
Speaker 3: Lewis and eldest son, who was six when he was diagnosed,
Speaker 3: and partly it was not our story to tell. We
Speaker 3: were like the custodian of him through this terrible time.
Speaker 3: But also I didn't have the energy, didn't even have
Speaker 3: the energy to like sometimes if I'd bump into someone
Speaker 3: I saw and they'd go house Lewis, I didn't even
Speaker 3: have that. Oh so the thought of taking on then
Speaker 3: the media aspect of it was completely.
Speaker 1: You had this circle that closed around you. But similar
Speaker 1: to you know, so self indulgent me saying I was
Speaker 1: so burnt out and it was so hard deciding what
Speaker 1: to be called. You had a child that was battling
Speaker 1: cancer and you had to turn up at work on
Speaker 1: breakfast radio every single day. It's not like you could
Speaker 1: say I'm taking a year off. No.
Speaker 3: But also this is why I understand what you're saying
Speaker 3: about work. Work is a salvation. Work is a salvation
Speaker 3: for us. I mean, yeah, it is for us, and
Speaker 3: it was for me, and it just to have a
Speaker 3: place where, and I didn't tune up every day. And
Speaker 3: there were a couple of people that were just so fantastic,
Speaker 3: other comedians who were like call us at any time,
Speaker 3: you know, Mick malloy and Helliah and will be there.
Speaker 3: They had your back. Yeah, they were fantastic. I was
Speaker 3: doing breakfast Radio with Hughesy in Melbourne at the time,
Speaker 3: but there were times when it would be the only time.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I'd only get in there once for the week, right,
Speaker 3: and it would be the only time in the week
Speaker 3: that wasn't about cancer, the only time. And so even
Speaker 3: though I was a bit wobbly, I was very hollow inside.
Speaker 3: But the muscles that you train, and I think this
Speaker 3: in life anyway, and I always say it to my children,
Speaker 3: the muscles that you train will be your strongest muscles.
Speaker 3: And because I had been doing breakfast radio for so
Speaker 3: many years, and doing breakfast radio you have to wake
Speaker 3: up whistling and it's like you coming into the office here.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So my muscles to be optimistic, to be cheerful, to
Speaker 3: be funny, yeah, and to be and to enjoy the
Speaker 3: world are very strong muscles. And so I get really
Speaker 3: annoyed in my household when people are grumpy. I hate
Speaker 3: fucking bad mood people.
Speaker 1: Yep, but you're not. That's interesting because the downside of
Speaker 1: that is toxic positivity. But you're not that.
Speaker 3: What is toxic positivity?
Speaker 1: That's kind of like look at the bright side.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, no, no, I no, I don't
Speaker 3: think I'm that it's like forcing everybody to not be
Speaker 3: able to experience their full range of emotions.
Speaker 1: You're not that, because that can be quite controlling and
Speaker 1: quite toxic.
Speaker 3: No, but I think it's more about, certainly breakfast radio,
Speaker 3: which is probably a metaphor for life. You're waking up
Speaker 3: to the world. My job is to give listeners the
Speaker 3: gift of faith. Faith in the day, faith that everything
Speaker 3: will be all right, Faith that you are not alone
Speaker 3: going through this, Faith that once you get out there,
Speaker 3: it's going to be great. It'll be fine. It won't
Speaker 3: be without challenges, but you're going to be fine because
Speaker 3: you've got me, you've got him, we've got us. And
Speaker 3: that also things in the world that might be ludicrous,
Speaker 3: that might be frightening if you stop, if you don't
Speaker 3: walk into the dark room with your eyes shut because
Speaker 3: you're scared of what you see. But if you open,
Speaker 3: actually open your eyes and you look across the room.
Speaker 3: There's someone else there. You can turn that moment into
Speaker 3: something humorous.
Speaker 1: So who is that for you? If you were that
Speaker 1: for everyone during that dark time? Who is that for you?
Speaker 3: Uh? My mother in law, Marie Peter's mum Peter to
Speaker 3: a certain extent. But that was also very hard. That
Speaker 3: was you know, a lot of relationships break up. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and kids also, I'm very you know, cognizant of the
Speaker 3: fact we had a good outcome, so.
Speaker 1: And us touching.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the people that didn't, the children that fell
Speaker 3: along the way.
Speaker 1: Would you sometimes in breaks just cry or you would
Speaker 1: just be in there and you would be like, right,
Speaker 1: the shutters are coming up or they're coming down, but
Speaker 1: I'm like no.
Speaker 3: In the break, we'd be talking about what was going on.
Speaker 1: Here's it.
Speaker 3: At some point go say, how are things?
Speaker 1: How's it? Louis?
Speaker 3: We talk about it, and then.
Speaker 1: You would just clicking to gear and click out.
Speaker 3: Sometimes sometimes it was not not so much clicky, but
Speaker 3: you just have to start the scene again. What are
Speaker 3: you going to do? Four years?
Speaker 4: Oh? Fuck?
Speaker 1: In my head it was two four.
Speaker 3: Years for boys because of the Lakini he had because
Speaker 3: it hides. It hides in the lining, in the in
Speaker 3: the spinal cord, and in the brain lining, and in boys,
Speaker 3: in the testicles. So for girls the treatment is some
Speaker 3: good news. For girls, the treatment's much shorter the girls.
Speaker 3: Four yeah, boys, yeah, four years four years of chema,
Speaker 3: yeah yeah, lumber punctures.
Speaker 1: You had more children in that time, didn't you.
Speaker 3: Know I'd had I'd had Yarny. My youngest was five
Speaker 3: months old when Lewis was diagnosed, so we had four
Speaker 3: under six, And so when Lewis was diagnosed, I had
Speaker 3: to stop feeding Yarni obviously our youngest, and like it
Speaker 3: was just like our daughter went to school too soon,
Speaker 3: because it was like, everybody's got to get out of
Speaker 3: the house because we're going to be at the hospital.
Speaker 3: Everyone's got to get on with things. Chop chop, Like
Speaker 3: it was a bit like that, and we didn't mean
Speaker 3: to be brutal, but it did. There was a period
Speaker 3: in which anyone else's ailment.
Speaker 1: Not a lot of sympathy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because at one stage, Yanni, this is the worst
Speaker 3: thing in the world, had a broken wrist for two
Speaker 3: days and we didn't realize it because it wasn't lukemia
Speaker 3: and it was only when Ray came over and she
Speaker 3: grabbed him to swing him around by his you know,
Speaker 3: grabbed him his hands to swing him in a circle,
Speaker 3: and he let out this curdling yelp and it had
Speaker 3: a broken wrist from where he jumped off the bottom stamp.
Speaker 1: And how did you find the because you know, the
Speaker 1: squeaky wheel gets the oil, so you know, you are
Speaker 1: biologically programmed to focus all your attention on the weakest
Speaker 1: link and the most.
Speaker 3: Vulnerable, which was loose for four years.
Speaker 1: Yes, So at what point did that stop? Like, how
Speaker 1: did you get to the point where you trusted his
Speaker 1: recovery and you could look at your other kids and
Speaker 1: go mmm, I mean, I'm sure it wasn't like a
Speaker 1: click up thing, but how did you navigate that?
Speaker 3: So when Lewis finished treatment, we stopped doing breakfast radio
Speaker 3: after twelve years men husy and he wanted to do
Speaker 3: more stand up, which is the opposite of you know.
Speaker 1: Did you want to keep going?
Speaker 3: No? No, I didn't want to keep going, but I
Speaker 3: was happy for him to make the decision. I went unhappy.
Speaker 1: Whatever you want, why didn't you want to keep going?
Speaker 1: The money is amazing.
Speaker 3: Because I wanted to have a time at home with
Speaker 3: yarny apropos around school. Yes, exactly, because he had been
Speaker 3: like from the womb untimely ripped or from the boob
Speaker 3: untimely ripped. And I was always conscious of the fact
Speaker 3: that we had this little one who I had really
Speaker 3: not got to spend much time with her. If I did,
Speaker 3: it was in between hospital visits, and you know, so
Speaker 3: I took that. It turned out to be a year.
Speaker 3: I didn't know how long it was going to be.
Speaker 3: We finished during breakfast Radio, had a gorgeous farewell. It
Speaker 3: was just beautiful, and I thought it might be forever.
Speaker 3: You know, when you stry you No, it didn't worry me. No,
Speaker 3: it didn't worry me.
Speaker 1: But you went from making all of this money like
Speaker 1: the Breakfast Radio particularly then not so much now, but
Speaker 1: then big best and biggest and most high profile. You
Speaker 1: guys were iconic. Yeah, did you feel the need or
Speaker 1: you just felt I need to.
Speaker 3: Just catch my breath?
Speaker 1: Now, I think so.
Speaker 3: And then Peter uttered a phrase which as a modern woman,
Speaker 3: I had never heard in my life, and it was
Speaker 3: one of the greatest things any man has. It is
Speaker 3: the greatest thing any man's ever said to me, He said, darling,
Speaker 3: you don't have to work. I can look after both
Speaker 3: of us.
Speaker 4: My wowd oh, my god, suck it suck.
Speaker 6: It's like so and I remember at the time, had
Speaker 6: you been the breadwinner before that, Yeah, you wear a
Speaker 6: lot of bread. Yeah, and you need a lot of
Speaker 6: bread for six people, Yeah, you do. And so we'd
Speaker 6: made one of those decisions, you know, the you know,
Speaker 6: practical decision that because I would earn more money than him,
Speaker 6: that he would.
Speaker 3: So he did that. Probably he was at home for
Speaker 3: probably about eighteen months, and then it just wasn't good
Speaker 3: for him. It was never a point of he was
Speaker 3: never like I don't want to do this. He was
Speaker 3: never resentful or whatever. But I'm just like, working man
Speaker 3: wasn't enough for he needs to work. Yeah, like a
Speaker 3: working dog needs to work. Yeah, so I'm working, I
Speaker 3: need to work.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So anyway, so it actually gave me the liberty to
Speaker 3: say I'm going to be at home. I'm going to
Speaker 3: be at home. And it was such a great It
Speaker 3: only ended up being one year, and it was a
Speaker 3: very challenging year from what I recall, well, because I
Speaker 3: was at home.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say, careful, what you wish
Speaker 1: I was at home. Yeah, did you feel irrelevant?
Speaker 3: I probably felt more irrelevant when we went and lived initially,
Speaker 3: when we were in an Italian class and I said,
Speaker 3: and I thought, I was so proud with myself. I said,
Speaker 3: I'm I'm Mollieri, Cassa or whatever. I'm housewife. And if
Speaker 3: I said that in Australia, at least a couple of people.
Speaker 1: In the road laugh and go, oh yeah, katling Brook,
Speaker 1: because they're like, yeah, it wasn't ironic.
Speaker 3: She's a housewife. Yeah. Interesting.
Speaker 1: So that was like a stripping back of ego because
Speaker 1: nobody knew you.
Speaker 3: That totally very great. I heartily recommend it, heartily. That's
Speaker 3: why I do yoga because I need I need the humiliation.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's true. To having teenagers, what do you do
Speaker 1: we're having teenage.
Speaker 3: I don't count them. I don't count that.
Speaker 1: I don't count too high.
Speaker 3: Terrible time. Yeah, grown up children. I know, I bring you,
Speaker 3: but I just don't. I can't take that on. It's
Speaker 3: like women. You know, when you go shopping with a
Speaker 3: teenage daughter. You see it all the time at any
Speaker 3: Westfield and there's a woman with a certain posture. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: and the girls with it, and I'm just like, what
Speaker 3: are we doing?
Speaker 1: You do get through that? Like I'm now at the
Speaker 1: point because I know what you mean.
Speaker 3: I've done.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that you would ever get through it.
Speaker 1: But my daughter, who just turned nineteen, now we can
Speaker 1: go shopping and it's delightful. I think our girls are
Speaker 1: the same as it's delightful and I will actually ask
Speaker 1: her advice and she'll give it to me without making
Speaker 1: me feel like a piece of shit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I noticed, because I'm always I think too
Speaker 3: maybe too aware of not giving them too much power,
Speaker 3: because you don't want to end up being one of
Speaker 3: those women whose self esteem has just been totally strip
Speaker 3: mind like a sloth scratching at a tree truck. There's
Speaker 3: nothing left because they've had years of should I wear this?
Speaker 3: And the door's going were the gray one?
Speaker 1: Yeah? No, No, I can't give away too much.
Speaker 3: You can't, can't. Power is very important, and no matter
Speaker 3: where you find that power, like you might be the nurturer,
Speaker 3: you might be the cook, you might be the one
Speaker 3: who's magical with the grandchildren. You might be doesn't matter,
Speaker 3: but you need to have a little patch of territory
Speaker 3: that's yours, and now I've got your fucking patch of territory. God,
Speaker 3: thank god, no one will try not to break ash.
Speaker 1: You're so good at this. I can't think of anyone
Speaker 1: who is going to be better. I can't wait to
Speaker 1: be listening every single week. And what an honor to
Speaker 1: be your first guest. Literally no one else in the building.
Speaker 3: Anyway. I love you, I love you, enjoy your secret
Speaker 3: square well and some suns.
Speaker 1: You'll be the first one to know.
Speaker 3: So Maya has left the building and you are now
Speaker 3: in my culpable hands. Come back me. Oh no, she's gone.
Speaker 3: I'll see you next way. The executive producer of No
Speaker 3: Filter is Naima Brown, Senior producer Grace ruverret producer Charlie Blackman,
Speaker 3: Audio production and sound design by Jacob Brown. And I'm
Speaker 3: your host Caitline Brook.