1 00:00:10,327 --> 00:00:14,927 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma mea podcast. Mamma Mere acknowledges the 2 00:00:14,967 --> 00:00:17,727 Speaker 1: traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is 3 00:00:17,767 --> 00:00:21,727 Speaker 1: recorded on Hello, it's Holly here, popping into your ears 4 00:00:21,767 --> 00:00:24,567 Speaker 1: to let you know about my brand new podcast MID. 5 00:00:25,287 --> 00:00:28,007 Speaker 1: It's a show full of conversations for gen X women. 6 00:00:28,447 --> 00:00:30,687 Speaker 1: I really wanted to make it because I wanted to 7 00:00:30,727 --> 00:00:33,487 Speaker 1: listen to the kind of conversations that I love to have, 8 00:00:34,047 --> 00:00:39,327 Speaker 1: meaningful ones, silly ones, life changing ones, life affirming ones. 9 00:00:40,127 --> 00:00:43,607 Speaker 1: Please enjoy this episode of MID, the show for women 10 00:00:43,607 --> 00:00:46,967 Speaker 1: who are anything but and for more. Please follow the 11 00:00:47,007 --> 00:00:51,927 Speaker 1: links in the show notes. Just not feeling it at 12 00:00:51,967 --> 00:00:58,007 Speaker 1: the moment, completely touched out, don't care if it never 13 00:00:58,127 --> 00:01:03,967 Speaker 1: happens again. Libido snatching hormones, there's no space left for 14 00:01:04,007 --> 00:01:08,487 Speaker 1: me to focus on pleasure. The literal act seem ridiculous, comical, 15 00:01:08,607 --> 00:01:14,087 Speaker 1: silly somehow, now we're all so different. There can be 16 00:01:14,167 --> 00:01:17,647 Speaker 1: a lot of sadness around sex when you ask midwomen 17 00:01:17,687 --> 00:01:21,207 Speaker 1: about it, really ask them about it, because sex can 18 00:01:21,247 --> 00:01:24,167 Speaker 1: be all caught up in who you are, who you were, 19 00:01:24,567 --> 00:01:27,887 Speaker 1: and how you feel about how desirable this new you is. 20 00:01:29,047 --> 00:01:33,567 Speaker 1: Maybe you used to love sex, Maybe you can remember 21 00:01:33,687 --> 00:01:38,327 Speaker 1: being that person. You can feel her, that charge rippling 22 00:01:38,367 --> 00:01:42,847 Speaker 1: across her skin, that tremble, that wave of intense need, 23 00:01:43,447 --> 00:01:48,367 Speaker 1: that flood of warm, syrupy relief, that smile that can't 24 00:01:48,367 --> 00:01:51,927 Speaker 1: be wiped, the memory of fingerprints on your skin you 25 00:01:52,007 --> 00:01:55,567 Speaker 1: carry through your day and never want to fade. Maybe 26 00:01:55,607 --> 00:01:59,527 Speaker 1: you've decided she was someone else, that person, because now 27 00:01:59,887 --> 00:02:03,927 Speaker 1: she seems to have dissolved away in a soup of hormones, caring, 28 00:02:04,007 --> 00:02:07,167 Speaker 1: and exhaustion that's been on a low boil of resentment 29 00:02:07,287 --> 00:02:12,287 Speaker 1: in a faded relationship. Maybe you've never been more aware 30 00:02:12,327 --> 00:02:14,767 Speaker 1: of the gap between what your body looks like and 31 00:02:14,807 --> 00:02:18,087 Speaker 1: how the ones on the internet appear. Whatever sexy is 32 00:02:18,167 --> 00:02:21,167 Speaker 1: now you don't feel it. Add a dose of having 33 00:02:21,167 --> 00:02:23,167 Speaker 1: to do all the damn things, all the damn time, 34 00:02:23,287 --> 00:02:25,607 Speaker 1: and all of that might have settled into an ick 35 00:02:26,087 --> 00:02:32,047 Speaker 1: that you just can't shift. So you think I've fundamentally changed. 36 00:02:32,607 --> 00:02:35,927 Speaker 1: Sex is something I used to do, used to enjoy doing, 37 00:02:36,327 --> 00:02:38,927 Speaker 1: not now, And perhaps you're right. 38 00:02:39,807 --> 00:02:39,967 Speaker 2: Or. 39 00:02:41,887 --> 00:02:46,087 Speaker 1: Maybe you're in your prime. Know more about your body, 40 00:02:46,287 --> 00:02:49,727 Speaker 1: more about what it wants, what it doesn't know, exactly 41 00:02:49,767 --> 00:02:52,567 Speaker 1: where the spark to that rippling charge lives, and how 42 00:02:52,567 --> 00:02:56,527 Speaker 1: to ignite it. Maybe you've worked out that feeling sexual 43 00:02:56,607 --> 00:03:03,167 Speaker 1: sits right alongside feeling wanted, appreciated, adored, desired. Maybe you're 44 00:03:03,207 --> 00:03:06,487 Speaker 1: finally ready to feel that way. Maybe you don't give 45 00:03:06,487 --> 00:03:09,647 Speaker 1: a fuck about your bumps and bulges and lines because 46 00:03:09,687 --> 00:03:14,527 Speaker 1: you know that actually sexy has never been smooth, bland clean. 47 00:03:15,607 --> 00:03:18,447 Speaker 1: Maybe you're rediscovering how it feels to be in lust 48 00:03:18,527 --> 00:03:21,407 Speaker 1: as a grown up, when you truly know who you are. 49 00:03:22,247 --> 00:03:25,767 Speaker 1: Maybe you're feeling some days exactly like that young woman 50 00:03:25,927 --> 00:03:28,687 Speaker 1: used to be. Maybe you're learning a new language of 51 00:03:28,727 --> 00:03:33,087 Speaker 1: sexting and porn harbor, ordering in from the apse. Maybe 52 00:03:33,087 --> 00:03:36,687 Speaker 1: you've finally thrown off the judgments from others, from yourself 53 00:03:36,927 --> 00:03:40,167 Speaker 1: that stopped you trying something that you had been whispering 54 00:03:40,247 --> 00:03:44,367 Speaker 1: quietly inside for years. And now you're ready. And it's 55 00:03:44,407 --> 00:03:48,967 Speaker 1: building this confidence and this desire and this need building 56 00:03:49,007 --> 00:03:51,687 Speaker 1: to something you've heard women talking about and might just 57 00:03:51,807 --> 00:03:55,487 Speaker 1: come pouring out in a roar, the sex of your life. 58 00:03:55,927 --> 00:04:00,167 Speaker 2: Ye ye, yes, I'll have one, shooes herving. 59 00:04:02,207 --> 00:04:06,247 Speaker 1: Is it behind you or is it a head? Maybe 60 00:04:06,327 --> 00:04:08,967 Speaker 1: the answer to that question has not yet been written. 61 00:04:12,647 --> 00:04:16,567 Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to mid Conversations for gen X women. 62 00:04:16,607 --> 00:04:20,047 Speaker 1: Who are anything but my name is Holly Wainwright and 63 00:04:20,127 --> 00:04:24,167 Speaker 1: I am mid, midlife, mid family, mid identity crisis, and 64 00:04:24,327 --> 00:04:28,807 Speaker 1: welcome back to our show, yours and mine. The whole 65 00:04:28,887 --> 00:04:32,247 Speaker 1: point of mid is to celebrate and commiserate and laugh 66 00:04:32,287 --> 00:04:34,967 Speaker 1: and take the piss out of this life stage that 67 00:04:35,007 --> 00:04:38,847 Speaker 1: the world tells us has made us small, irrelevant and invisible. 68 00:04:39,407 --> 00:04:42,727 Speaker 1: Safe in the knowledge that actually we have never been wiser, 69 00:04:43,127 --> 00:04:48,087 Speaker 1: more powerful, more experienced, and more ambitious for our next acts. 70 00:04:48,647 --> 00:04:50,887 Speaker 1: Gen X is never played by the rules, so why 71 00:04:50,927 --> 00:04:54,007 Speaker 1: would we start now. We're taking back that trite little word, 72 00:04:54,207 --> 00:04:56,567 Speaker 1: the one that's meant to convince us of our mediocrity, 73 00:04:56,807 --> 00:05:00,727 Speaker 1: and we're going to shake that midshit up. In season one, 74 00:05:01,167 --> 00:05:03,967 Speaker 1: we had eight conversations that changed my mind and maybe 75 00:05:04,007 --> 00:05:07,247 Speaker 1: my life a little bit about mental health and alcohol 76 00:05:07,287 --> 00:05:10,487 Speaker 1: and bodies and grief and burn out and parenting kids 77 00:05:10,527 --> 00:05:14,207 Speaker 1: who aren't kids and dating and everything really, and please 78 00:05:14,287 --> 00:05:17,287 Speaker 1: feel free to scroll back in your feed and listen 79 00:05:17,287 --> 00:05:20,607 Speaker 1: to any of those. They're not going anywhere, but today, 80 00:05:21,087 --> 00:05:24,407 Speaker 1: in the first episode of season two, we're going somewhere 81 00:05:24,447 --> 00:05:28,127 Speaker 1: we haven't been yet. We're going towards sex. 82 00:05:28,567 --> 00:05:29,127 Speaker 2: Sex. 83 00:05:30,807 --> 00:05:35,327 Speaker 1: I want you to meet Leslie Morgan. She's an American author, columnist, 84 00:05:35,327 --> 00:05:39,167 Speaker 1: and advocate. She's been a successful corporate executive. She's a 85 00:05:39,207 --> 00:05:43,047 Speaker 1: speaker on women's rights, and she's a survivor of domestic violence. 86 00:05:43,367 --> 00:05:47,087 Speaker 1: She's got three grown up kids. She is also fifty 87 00:05:47,167 --> 00:05:51,767 Speaker 1: nine years old and very, very keen on sex. Ten 88 00:05:51,847 --> 00:05:55,647 Speaker 1: years ago, Leslie's perfect on the outside, hollow on the inside. 89 00:05:55,647 --> 00:05:59,207 Speaker 1: Marriage fell apart. She hadn't had sex for literally years 90 00:05:59,247 --> 00:06:02,207 Speaker 1: when she decided that in her post divorce life, she 91 00:06:02,327 --> 00:06:05,327 Speaker 1: was going to find five boyfriends in twelve months. And 92 00:06:05,407 --> 00:06:07,847 Speaker 1: she did, and she wrote a book about it called 93 00:06:07,887 --> 00:06:12,407 Speaker 1: The Naked Truth. She met men, younger ones, mostly in 94 00:06:12,527 --> 00:06:16,127 Speaker 1: all kinds of places, and she built herself a suite 95 00:06:16,167 --> 00:06:21,927 Speaker 1: of lovers, including strangers, acquaintances, and an old high school crush. 96 00:06:21,967 --> 00:06:25,487 Speaker 1: And she had a lot of sex, most of it good, 97 00:06:25,807 --> 00:06:29,847 Speaker 1: some of it great, a sprinkling of it absolutely mind blowing. 98 00:06:31,087 --> 00:06:35,847 Speaker 1: And Leslie changed. She rediscovered her sexuality, she embraced it, 99 00:06:36,047 --> 00:06:38,327 Speaker 1: and she realized that what she needed in this second 100 00:06:38,367 --> 00:06:40,807 Speaker 1: act of her life was not to be a caretaker 101 00:06:40,887 --> 00:06:44,407 Speaker 1: any longer, but to be taken care of in all 102 00:06:44,527 --> 00:06:47,207 Speaker 1: kinds of ways. I'm sure you don't need me to 103 00:06:47,247 --> 00:06:49,887 Speaker 1: tell you that this conversation is not for children. That 104 00:06:49,967 --> 00:06:52,007 Speaker 1: you might want to put your earbuds in, and you 105 00:06:52,087 --> 00:06:54,087 Speaker 1: might want to do what I did before we recorded 106 00:06:54,087 --> 00:06:56,487 Speaker 1: this interview and put on a little extra blush so 107 00:06:56,567 --> 00:07:01,327 Speaker 1: that no one can see yours. Welcome to mid season two, 108 00:07:01,487 --> 00:07:08,127 Speaker 1: Episode one, Sex with our guest Leslie Morgan. Leslie, I 109 00:07:08,207 --> 00:07:10,927 Speaker 1: want to start with this passage from your book, But 110 00:07:11,007 --> 00:07:13,367 Speaker 1: before I tell you how I tracked down the twenty 111 00:07:13,447 --> 00:07:16,407 Speaker 1: nine year old explosives expert I met at the Philadelphia 112 00:07:16,407 --> 00:07:19,447 Speaker 1: Airport and how we blew up two decades of marriage 113 00:07:19,447 --> 00:07:22,527 Speaker 1: and thirty six months of celibacy, first I have to 114 00:07:22,527 --> 00:07:25,167 Speaker 1: go back in time and tell you about getting rid 115 00:07:25,207 --> 00:07:28,407 Speaker 1: of my husband Marty. Please don't think I'm being callous. 116 00:07:28,647 --> 00:07:33,207 Speaker 1: Trust me. My husband wanted to get rid of me too, Leslie. 117 00:07:33,407 --> 00:07:37,047 Speaker 1: Tell me everything about where you were in that moment. 118 00:07:38,727 --> 00:07:43,607 Speaker 2: So it is really true that my husband had wanted 119 00:07:43,607 --> 00:07:46,167 Speaker 2: to get rid of me for a long time. But he, 120 00:07:47,127 --> 00:07:50,327 Speaker 2: like so many men, he wanted the trappings of having 121 00:07:50,367 --> 00:07:53,447 Speaker 2: a wife. He liked the way that I organized his 122 00:07:53,487 --> 00:07:55,367 Speaker 2: life and took care of the house and the kids 123 00:07:55,927 --> 00:07:59,367 Speaker 2: and kind of made him look good and normal, and 124 00:07:59,527 --> 00:08:04,967 Speaker 2: also He very much saw our economic stability as something 125 00:08:05,007 --> 00:08:07,007 Speaker 2: that he controlled, and he did not want to give 126 00:08:07,047 --> 00:08:11,247 Speaker 2: me any money. He had been, you know, making his 127 00:08:11,367 --> 00:08:13,927 Speaker 2: peace with an unhappy marriage for a long time, and 128 00:08:13,967 --> 00:08:17,087 Speaker 2: I think he would have lived with me without having 129 00:08:17,127 --> 00:08:19,607 Speaker 2: sex with me for the rest of his life, and 130 00:08:19,647 --> 00:08:21,607 Speaker 2: he would have just faked it and pretended. And I 131 00:08:21,647 --> 00:08:23,767 Speaker 2: think that you see a lot of men like this. 132 00:08:24,367 --> 00:08:28,847 Speaker 2: Women most often are the ones who initiate divorces, especially 133 00:08:29,247 --> 00:08:32,767 Speaker 2: divorces after forty and I just couldn't take it anymore. 134 00:08:32,847 --> 00:08:35,967 Speaker 2: I couldn't sleep in the bed next to him anymore. 135 00:08:36,527 --> 00:08:39,087 Speaker 2: I couldn't go on vacation with him manymore. I couldn't 136 00:08:39,087 --> 00:08:42,007 Speaker 2: lie to my children, I couldn't lie to myself. So 137 00:08:42,807 --> 00:08:46,607 Speaker 2: I had finally broken the news to him that our 138 00:08:46,647 --> 00:08:49,287 Speaker 2: marriage was dead and that it wasn't his fault and 139 00:08:49,327 --> 00:08:52,607 Speaker 2: it wasn't my fault. Although, Holly, I'll tell you the truth, 140 00:08:52,607 --> 00:08:54,887 Speaker 2: I do think it was more his fault than my fault, 141 00:08:54,927 --> 00:08:56,287 Speaker 2: because I had tried very hard. 142 00:08:56,527 --> 00:08:58,687 Speaker 1: Yet when you talk about the scene where you were 143 00:08:58,687 --> 00:09:02,407 Speaker 1: on holiday and you finally have this conversation and you 144 00:09:02,447 --> 00:09:04,567 Speaker 1: try and hug him, you try and put your arms 145 00:09:04,607 --> 00:09:07,367 Speaker 1: around him to comfort him, and he says, I don't 146 00:09:07,807 --> 00:09:10,567 Speaker 1: like the way you hug me. And one of the 147 00:09:10,607 --> 00:09:12,647 Speaker 1: things that I hear from a lot of women who've 148 00:09:12,647 --> 00:09:15,327 Speaker 1: been in either sort of low sex, no sex, or 149 00:09:15,447 --> 00:09:19,487 Speaker 1: just unhappy marriage is is how that makes you feel 150 00:09:19,567 --> 00:09:23,487 Speaker 1: to know that everything you're doing is sort of almost 151 00:09:23,567 --> 00:09:26,767 Speaker 1: repulsive to them. It's not good for you, is it? 152 00:09:27,447 --> 00:09:30,407 Speaker 2: No? It was terrible. It was terrible to feel so 153 00:09:30,527 --> 00:09:34,767 Speaker 2: repulsive and so much that I couldn't please him. You know, 154 00:09:35,127 --> 00:09:38,287 Speaker 2: for years after every time we had been intimate, he 155 00:09:38,327 --> 00:09:41,727 Speaker 2: would kind of give me a grade and he would say, oh, no, 156 00:09:42,167 --> 00:09:45,327 Speaker 2: not this time. You're just you're still not meeting my needs. 157 00:09:45,727 --> 00:09:46,047 Speaker 1: Oh. 158 00:09:46,087 --> 00:09:48,247 Speaker 2: And it got to the point that one of the 159 00:09:48,327 --> 00:09:51,687 Speaker 2: last times we attempted to have sex, I burst into tears. 160 00:09:52,127 --> 00:09:55,567 Speaker 2: I was sobbing, hysterically and shaking because I was so 161 00:09:55,847 --> 00:10:00,007 Speaker 2: afraid of him destroying me again and making me feel 162 00:10:00,087 --> 00:10:03,207 Speaker 2: terrible again. It was really quite something. And the thing 163 00:10:03,247 --> 00:10:06,247 Speaker 2: that was even harder for me. Maybe this would be 164 00:10:06,287 --> 00:10:08,447 Speaker 2: easier for other women, but it was really hard for 165 00:10:08,567 --> 00:10:13,327 Speaker 2: me is that I loved sex, and I had loved 166 00:10:13,407 --> 00:10:16,607 Speaker 2: sex with him, really loved it. I loved him physically. 167 00:10:17,207 --> 00:10:19,447 Speaker 2: I don't know how graphic I'm allowed to get. But 168 00:10:19,567 --> 00:10:24,767 Speaker 2: he was big and really liked it, and it was 169 00:10:24,807 --> 00:10:28,287 Speaker 2: sort of like having my own human dildo because he 170 00:10:28,367 --> 00:10:31,407 Speaker 2: was so uninvolved in our sex life. But I really 171 00:10:31,487 --> 00:10:33,207 Speaker 2: I enjoyed it. I made the most of it. I 172 00:10:33,327 --> 00:10:33,687 Speaker 2: liked it. 173 00:10:34,047 --> 00:10:36,687 Speaker 1: I love that, but he was like a human dildo 174 00:10:36,807 --> 00:10:40,607 Speaker 1: by that point, because the emotional connection is emotional connection. 175 00:10:40,687 --> 00:10:42,967 Speaker 2: Honestly, Holly had never really been there. I mean, we 176 00:10:43,007 --> 00:10:44,727 Speaker 2: had been in trouble from the very beginning of our 177 00:10:44,767 --> 00:10:48,207 Speaker 2: marriage in terms of our sexual and our emotional connection. 178 00:10:48,727 --> 00:10:51,647 Speaker 2: So I really thought that I never wanted to have 179 00:10:51,687 --> 00:10:55,367 Speaker 2: sex again. He had made me feel so terribly about myself, 180 00:10:55,487 --> 00:10:58,407 Speaker 2: and I thought that was the solution, to never have 181 00:10:58,447 --> 00:11:01,967 Speaker 2: sex again, to divorce him, and to just be kind 182 00:11:02,007 --> 00:11:05,007 Speaker 2: of blissfully alone for the rest of my life. And 183 00:11:05,527 --> 00:11:08,167 Speaker 2: I told all of my friends that when we split up, 184 00:11:08,327 --> 00:11:10,207 Speaker 2: I kind of shouted it and the rooftops that I 185 00:11:10,287 --> 00:11:12,007 Speaker 2: was done with men and I was done with sex. 186 00:11:12,007 --> 00:11:13,687 Speaker 2: And I was forty nine years old. You know, I 187 00:11:13,687 --> 00:11:16,167 Speaker 2: felt old, but I actually you were. Now I realized 188 00:11:16,207 --> 00:11:17,127 Speaker 2: I was actually quite young. 189 00:11:17,367 --> 00:11:20,407 Speaker 1: So you had kind of convinced yourself at that time 190 00:11:20,647 --> 00:11:23,767 Speaker 1: that your sexual self and you said you'd always really 191 00:11:23,847 --> 00:11:26,247 Speaker 1: loved sex was kind of done. And that's what I 192 00:11:26,247 --> 00:11:29,567 Speaker 1: think lots of mid women tell themselves, right, is They're like, 193 00:11:29,647 --> 00:11:33,087 Speaker 1: I used to be a sexual person and now I'm 194 00:11:33,127 --> 00:11:36,687 Speaker 1: not a sexual person anymore. And maybe that's just life, 195 00:11:36,727 --> 00:11:40,727 Speaker 1: maybe that's just age, maybe that's just whatever. And often 196 00:11:40,767 --> 00:11:43,487 Speaker 1: it's the relationship therein that may have pushed them there. 197 00:11:43,927 --> 00:11:47,367 Speaker 1: So you had had thirty six months of celibacy, the 198 00:11:47,407 --> 00:11:49,967 Speaker 1: marriage had been sexless for a while, but for the 199 00:11:50,007 --> 00:11:53,487 Speaker 1: reasons you've expressed, yes, you're like, I'm never having sex again, 200 00:11:54,367 --> 00:11:57,727 Speaker 1: and then we get to a place where you plan 201 00:11:58,207 --> 00:12:03,047 Speaker 1: to have a year with five lovers. Tell me how 202 00:12:03,087 --> 00:12:04,247 Speaker 1: that came about. 203 00:12:04,527 --> 00:12:09,287 Speaker 2: Okay, So I was exactly as you described. I I 204 00:12:09,287 --> 00:12:12,647 Speaker 2: thought that my sex life was over because I didn't 205 00:12:12,687 --> 00:12:17,767 Speaker 2: like sex anymore. And what I really was coming to 206 00:12:17,807 --> 00:12:19,807 Speaker 2: groups with was that it wasn't that I didn't like 207 00:12:19,847 --> 00:12:22,127 Speaker 2: sex anymore. It was that I didn't want to have 208 00:12:22,167 --> 00:12:25,247 Speaker 2: sex with my ex husband ever again, and he had 209 00:12:25,247 --> 00:12:27,807 Speaker 2: made me feel so terrible and he had invested so 210 00:12:27,887 --> 00:12:30,967 Speaker 2: little in our relationship that I didn't feel valued or 211 00:12:31,007 --> 00:12:33,327 Speaker 2: treasured as a woman, as a sexual woman at all. 212 00:12:34,127 --> 00:12:40,047 Speaker 2: And then I very serendipitously met maybe the most handsome 213 00:12:40,167 --> 00:12:44,127 Speaker 2: man that I'd ever met, you know, outside of movie stars, 214 00:12:44,567 --> 00:12:46,807 Speaker 2: in an airport. I was forty nine and he was 215 00:12:46,847 --> 00:12:50,447 Speaker 2: twenty nine, and I knocked over his coffee. 216 00:12:50,567 --> 00:12:53,687 Speaker 1: Did you knock over his coffee on accidental purpose? 217 00:12:53,767 --> 00:12:57,727 Speaker 2: Leslie? No, I didn't even see him. I knocked over 218 00:12:57,767 --> 00:13:00,367 Speaker 2: his coffee and then I looked at him and I 219 00:13:00,367 --> 00:13:04,087 Speaker 2: could barely breathe because he was so handsome, and we 220 00:13:04,167 --> 00:13:08,887 Speaker 2: started a flirtation and we ended up rendezvousing in a 221 00:13:08,887 --> 00:13:13,127 Speaker 2: hotel a month later, quite intentionally to break my celibacy streak. 222 00:13:14,007 --> 00:13:18,567 Speaker 2: And it was the one of the most daring, audacious 223 00:13:18,607 --> 00:13:19,807 Speaker 2: things that I've ever done. 224 00:13:20,127 --> 00:13:21,847 Speaker 1: Where did you get the nerve to do that? 225 00:13:22,127 --> 00:13:22,327 Speaker 2: Right? 226 00:13:22,407 --> 00:13:25,287 Speaker 1: Because so this is the explosives expert that we began 227 00:13:25,487 --> 00:13:28,327 Speaker 1: talking about at the beginning. Yes, I want to know, 228 00:13:28,527 --> 00:13:30,167 Speaker 1: and we're going to go all kinds of places in 229 00:13:30,167 --> 00:13:32,127 Speaker 1: this conversation, but one of the places we're going to 230 00:13:32,127 --> 00:13:34,127 Speaker 1: get to towards the end, I hope, is your advice 231 00:13:34,167 --> 00:13:38,047 Speaker 1: for how women can build their confidence to find themselves 232 00:13:38,047 --> 00:13:41,087 Speaker 1: in situations like you did with explosive sex. But how 233 00:13:41,087 --> 00:13:44,967 Speaker 1: did you get the nerve to go from this person 234 00:13:45,007 --> 00:13:48,887 Speaker 1: who'd almost had their sexuality decimated to be I think 235 00:13:49,447 --> 00:13:52,007 Speaker 1: that's the guy I'm going to break my celibacy streak with. 236 00:13:52,807 --> 00:13:56,847 Speaker 2: I really honestly don't know. I think I was so 237 00:13:57,047 --> 00:13:59,847 Speaker 2: happy to not be married. At that point, I had 238 00:14:00,087 --> 00:14:03,367 Speaker 2: been unmarried for a year. I was coming back into 239 00:14:03,407 --> 00:14:06,767 Speaker 2: my own I was rediscovering myself. I was feeling great 240 00:14:06,887 --> 00:14:10,447 Speaker 2: about myself because I just recovered from that terrible marriage, 241 00:14:11,047 --> 00:14:14,567 Speaker 2: and I was feeling very gutsy. And that man was 242 00:14:14,847 --> 00:14:19,767 Speaker 2: so handsome. He looked like Brad Pitt. He was so gorgeous, 243 00:14:19,927 --> 00:14:22,367 Speaker 2: and I just thought, you know, I'm going to go 244 00:14:22,407 --> 00:14:24,007 Speaker 2: back to who I was as a teenager. I'm going 245 00:14:24,047 --> 00:14:25,847 Speaker 2: to become gutsy again, and I'm going to go after 246 00:14:25,887 --> 00:14:29,167 Speaker 2: what I want. And I had been a very good 247 00:14:29,207 --> 00:14:31,807 Speaker 2: girl as a married woman. As a wife, I had 248 00:14:31,887 --> 00:14:34,807 Speaker 2: never strayed. I had never really even flirted with anybody. 249 00:14:35,447 --> 00:14:38,607 Speaker 2: And here I am plotting to meet a man in 250 00:14:38,647 --> 00:14:42,967 Speaker 2: a hotel for the sole purpose of having sex with him. 251 00:14:43,007 --> 00:14:45,327 Speaker 2: I mean, it was so thrilling and it was terrifying, 252 00:14:45,327 --> 00:14:47,647 Speaker 2: and I told no one. You know, I had one 253 00:14:47,687 --> 00:14:49,727 Speaker 2: best friend who I confided that I thought I was 254 00:14:49,767 --> 00:14:52,087 Speaker 2: going to do this, but I was kind of afraid 255 00:14:52,127 --> 00:14:53,847 Speaker 2: to tell my other friends because I thought they might 256 00:14:53,927 --> 00:14:55,807 Speaker 2: judge me. They might think that I was like some 257 00:14:55,967 --> 00:14:58,847 Speaker 2: kind of crazy slut or something. But I did it, 258 00:14:59,007 --> 00:15:02,207 Speaker 2: and as I write about in The Naked Truth, I 259 00:15:02,287 --> 00:15:06,087 Speaker 2: was very nervous. It was terrifying to be naked in 260 00:15:06,127 --> 00:15:10,087 Speaker 2: front of anybody, but especially a nine year old with 261 00:15:10,247 --> 00:15:13,927 Speaker 2: a perfect body. And here's my body. You know, I 262 00:15:13,927 --> 00:15:17,047 Speaker 2: had breastfed my children. You know, I had this flab 263 00:15:17,087 --> 00:15:19,687 Speaker 2: on my stomach and I had cellulite everywhere. And I 264 00:15:19,687 --> 00:15:22,527 Speaker 2: thought he was going to be disgusted and horrified, and 265 00:15:22,647 --> 00:15:25,727 Speaker 2: instead he wasn't. He loved it. He loved the experience 266 00:15:25,767 --> 00:15:28,967 Speaker 2: of being with an older woman. He was very appreciative. 267 00:15:29,087 --> 00:15:32,127 Speaker 2: He made me feel great. The sex was not very good, 268 00:15:32,407 --> 00:15:36,607 Speaker 2: I didn't care because it was just so delectable to 269 00:15:36,687 --> 00:15:39,567 Speaker 2: be held again and to touch a man again, and 270 00:15:39,607 --> 00:15:43,687 Speaker 2: to have a man inside me, and to just feel 271 00:15:43,687 --> 00:15:47,207 Speaker 2: like a woman again. I felt like a sexual goddess. 272 00:15:47,367 --> 00:15:49,967 Speaker 2: Oh god, it was so intoxicating, and so what I 273 00:15:50,007 --> 00:15:52,687 Speaker 2: did after that night. For various reasons, I couldn't continue 274 00:15:52,767 --> 00:15:54,967 Speaker 2: with him, but I thought, you know what, I need 275 00:15:54,967 --> 00:15:56,767 Speaker 2: more of this, and I need a lot more, and 276 00:15:56,807 --> 00:15:58,447 Speaker 2: I need to make sure I don't get too attached 277 00:15:58,447 --> 00:16:01,047 Speaker 2: to any one of them. So I'm going to have five. 278 00:16:01,367 --> 00:16:03,247 Speaker 1: How did you settle on five, Leslie? Is it you 279 00:16:03,247 --> 00:16:04,327 Speaker 1: a lucky number or something? 280 00:16:04,807 --> 00:16:06,727 Speaker 2: It just seemed like a good number. I actually I 281 00:16:06,767 --> 00:16:10,167 Speaker 2: wanted to where I lived, and then three on the 282 00:16:10,247 --> 00:16:13,367 Speaker 2: road where I traveled, and it just sounded five sounded 283 00:16:13,407 --> 00:16:15,287 Speaker 2: like a good number. And you know what, hally, it 284 00:16:15,367 --> 00:16:18,127 Speaker 2: was very rarely five. There were times where it was zero. 285 00:16:18,447 --> 00:16:20,967 Speaker 2: There were times where I had like ten people that 286 00:16:21,007 --> 00:16:21,727 Speaker 2: I was working on. 287 00:16:21,927 --> 00:16:22,967 Speaker 1: It was working on. 288 00:16:23,167 --> 00:16:25,047 Speaker 2: I like it. You don't just wake up one day 289 00:16:25,087 --> 00:16:26,847 Speaker 2: at any age and say I'm going to have five 290 00:16:26,847 --> 00:16:30,247 Speaker 2: boyfriends tomorrow. You have to reach out and cultivate them 291 00:16:30,287 --> 00:16:33,407 Speaker 2: and meet them and convince them. And it was a 292 00:16:33,447 --> 00:16:36,687 Speaker 2: lot of work, actually, but it was really really fun. 293 00:16:36,727 --> 00:16:39,007 Speaker 1: Fun work after you know, everything you've been doing for 294 00:16:39,047 --> 00:16:40,847 Speaker 1: a lot of years not being about you but being 295 00:16:40,887 --> 00:16:42,927 Speaker 1: about other people. Can I just ask you push on 296 00:16:42,967 --> 00:16:45,047 Speaker 1: that younger man thing a little bit right, because this 297 00:16:45,167 --> 00:16:48,647 Speaker 1: is something I hear a lot from the mid community 298 00:16:48,687 --> 00:16:51,167 Speaker 1: and my mid friends. You know, you might be coming 299 00:16:51,247 --> 00:16:53,487 Speaker 1: out of this long term relationship only one person has 300 00:16:53,527 --> 00:16:55,527 Speaker 1: seen you naked for all this time, and as you 301 00:16:55,647 --> 00:16:58,287 Speaker 1: just expressed, there's a lot of fear there. Your body, 302 00:16:58,287 --> 00:17:00,367 Speaker 1: in your mind looks very different to the last time 303 00:17:00,367 --> 00:17:03,327 Speaker 1: you showed it to a stranger, right. And a lot 304 00:17:03,367 --> 00:17:07,527 Speaker 1: of my friends of our age say that younger men, 305 00:17:08,167 --> 00:17:11,287 Speaker 1: it's very common for them to have their first post 306 00:17:11,367 --> 00:17:15,687 Speaker 1: marriage sexual experiences or several with younger guys, and that 307 00:17:15,807 --> 00:17:18,567 Speaker 1: younger guys, as you just expressed, don't give us stuff 308 00:17:19,007 --> 00:17:22,527 Speaker 1: about the celluli, you know, the boobs being a little 309 00:17:22,567 --> 00:17:24,807 Speaker 1: lower and they were. Why do you think that is? 310 00:17:24,847 --> 00:17:28,807 Speaker 1: What's your sort of theory on why younger guys love 311 00:17:28,847 --> 00:17:32,007 Speaker 1: older women and why older women need to shrug off 312 00:17:32,047 --> 00:17:34,447 Speaker 1: some of the fear of like I couldn't show this 313 00:17:34,647 --> 00:17:35,207 Speaker 1: to them. 314 00:17:35,567 --> 00:17:40,127 Speaker 2: So I think that younger men who are sexually attracted 315 00:17:40,127 --> 00:17:45,287 Speaker 2: to older women, they don't expect perfection. They absolutely know 316 00:17:45,687 --> 00:17:48,247 Speaker 2: that your body's not going to be perfect. They're after 317 00:17:48,487 --> 00:17:53,567 Speaker 2: the entire experience, not just the physicality of it. And 318 00:17:53,607 --> 00:17:56,567 Speaker 2: they are fully aware that older women are much more 319 00:17:56,607 --> 00:17:59,807 Speaker 2: experienced sexually than they are, and they like that. And 320 00:17:59,887 --> 00:18:03,687 Speaker 2: also I was, by comparison to these men, I was 321 00:18:03,767 --> 00:18:07,047 Speaker 2: so wise. I knew how to put them at ease. 322 00:18:07,287 --> 00:18:10,927 Speaker 2: I was very comfortable talking to them about sex because 323 00:18:10,927 --> 00:18:13,207 Speaker 2: I'd had a lot of sex, and because I liked sex, 324 00:18:13,487 --> 00:18:15,927 Speaker 2: and also I could solve their problems. I mean, there 325 00:18:15,967 --> 00:18:18,127 Speaker 2: is not a twenty nine year old on earth who 326 00:18:18,127 --> 00:18:20,367 Speaker 2: can come up with a problem that I can't solve 327 00:18:20,447 --> 00:18:24,047 Speaker 2: in five minutes because they don't have real problems, you know, 328 00:18:24,087 --> 00:18:28,007 Speaker 2: from my perspective, Yah, right, Yes, And they appreciated the 329 00:18:28,007 --> 00:18:31,047 Speaker 2: whole package. They also appreciated being taken care of. They 330 00:18:31,087 --> 00:18:33,647 Speaker 2: appreciated that I lived in a nice house, you know, 331 00:18:33,767 --> 00:18:36,087 Speaker 2: much nicer than what they you know, they just the 332 00:18:36,127 --> 00:18:39,687 Speaker 2: whole package, Holly, and I was shocked by it. When 333 00:18:39,727 --> 00:18:41,647 Speaker 2: I had first gotten together with Dylan, I didn't he 334 00:18:41,687 --> 00:18:44,327 Speaker 2: had to explain to me what a milf was. I 335 00:18:44,367 --> 00:18:46,967 Speaker 2: did not know that there was such a term. I 336 00:18:47,007 --> 00:18:50,327 Speaker 2: didn't know that younger men liked older women. I had 337 00:18:50,327 --> 00:18:54,487 Speaker 2: been living with my married mother blinders on, and so 338 00:18:54,527 --> 00:18:56,167 Speaker 2: it was all quite an awakening for me. 339 00:18:57,727 --> 00:19:00,847 Speaker 1: So, look, he decide, you want a lover or five lovers, 340 00:19:01,327 --> 00:19:04,047 Speaker 1: but how do you even start to make that a reality. 341 00:19:04,327 --> 00:19:11,527 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more after this break. So the 342 00:19:11,727 --> 00:19:15,167 Speaker 1: strategy is set. We're going to find five boyfriends in 343 00:19:15,207 --> 00:19:18,887 Speaker 1: the year to break the drought and to plunge back 344 00:19:18,887 --> 00:19:22,367 Speaker 1: into the boyfriend pool. I know that you didn't use 345 00:19:22,527 --> 00:19:25,447 Speaker 1: dating apps. How did you find your boyfriends? You were 346 00:19:25,487 --> 00:19:27,647 Speaker 1: just saying it was a bit of work. Obviously, you've 347 00:19:27,687 --> 00:19:30,647 Speaker 1: got kids at this point, I think your kids teenagers. 348 00:19:30,727 --> 00:19:33,447 Speaker 2: Yes, two of my kids were living away from home. 349 00:19:33,727 --> 00:19:36,287 Speaker 2: One was in college, one was in boarding school, and 350 00:19:36,327 --> 00:19:39,287 Speaker 2: the other was only with me a week at a 351 00:19:39,287 --> 00:19:41,047 Speaker 2: time because then she would go to her dad's house. 352 00:19:41,247 --> 00:19:44,847 Speaker 1: So you've got windows of opportunity. You travel for work, 353 00:19:44,927 --> 00:19:47,687 Speaker 1: so there's airports, there's hotels, there's all those things sort 354 00:19:47,687 --> 00:19:51,407 Speaker 1: of sprinkled through that. So how did you find your 355 00:19:51,447 --> 00:19:52,327 Speaker 1: five boyfriends? 356 00:19:52,527 --> 00:19:54,607 Speaker 2: Well, the first thing is I did is I started 357 00:19:54,807 --> 00:19:58,247 Speaker 2: just looking at the world completely differently, because you don't 358 00:19:58,327 --> 00:20:01,607 Speaker 2: need dating apps because there are actually so many men everywhere. 359 00:20:02,247 --> 00:20:04,687 Speaker 2: And I started seeing that there were men on the street, 360 00:20:04,767 --> 00:20:06,647 Speaker 2: there were men at the supermarket, there were men at 361 00:20:06,727 --> 00:20:09,807 Speaker 2: yoga class, there were men in airports, men at the 362 00:20:09,807 --> 00:20:13,287 Speaker 2: car wash. You know, I just I started seeing men, 363 00:20:13,407 --> 00:20:17,487 Speaker 2: and I started really pushing myself. When I saw a 364 00:20:17,527 --> 00:20:20,407 Speaker 2: man who I thought I was attracted to, I forced 365 00:20:20,407 --> 00:20:22,687 Speaker 2: myself to talk to him. And it was really hard. 366 00:20:22,767 --> 00:20:24,567 Speaker 2: I was not raised to be this way. I was 367 00:20:24,647 --> 00:20:26,927 Speaker 2: raised to wait for men to come to me. But 368 00:20:27,007 --> 00:20:29,207 Speaker 2: I forced myself, and I missed out on some really 369 00:20:29,247 --> 00:20:31,327 Speaker 2: good men because I wasn't gutsy enough. And I also 370 00:20:31,367 --> 00:20:34,087 Speaker 2: made a fool out of myself with some men who 371 00:20:34,127 --> 00:20:37,887 Speaker 2: really were not interested. But in general, I had a 372 00:20:37,887 --> 00:20:41,527 Speaker 2: pretty good hit rate. And I met one man in yoga. 373 00:20:42,007 --> 00:20:44,687 Speaker 2: Oh he was so cute, God, I loved him. Gorgeous 374 00:20:44,727 --> 00:20:47,567 Speaker 2: yoga man. I met a lot of men in airports 375 00:20:47,567 --> 00:20:50,647 Speaker 2: because airports were the best place. It was like shooting 376 00:20:50,687 --> 00:20:52,567 Speaker 2: fish in a barrel. It was like going to a 377 00:20:52,607 --> 00:20:56,327 Speaker 2: bar because there's so many men in airports, and they're 378 00:20:56,447 --> 00:20:59,447 Speaker 2: so easy to meet. You know, a lot of men 379 00:20:59,487 --> 00:21:02,847 Speaker 2: travel for business and you can just meet them by saying, well, 380 00:21:02,847 --> 00:21:04,847 Speaker 2: where are you going? Where do you live? Oh, the 381 00:21:04,847 --> 00:21:06,687 Speaker 2: flight's delayed again. You know. I found it to be 382 00:21:06,767 --> 00:21:07,607 Speaker 2: extremely easy. 383 00:21:08,087 --> 00:21:09,927 Speaker 1: So well, you're telling us, he's don't go to the 384 00:21:09,967 --> 00:21:11,207 Speaker 1: airport and your sweatpants. 385 00:21:11,407 --> 00:21:15,087 Speaker 2: Oh no, I started blessing up so much for the airport. 386 00:21:15,567 --> 00:21:17,527 Speaker 2: You have to dress nicely. I mean I didn't want 387 00:21:17,527 --> 00:21:19,167 Speaker 2: to be too fancy, but I tried to look. 388 00:21:19,007 --> 00:21:23,407 Speaker 1: Hard, of course, and then you're literally starting conversations with 389 00:21:23,607 --> 00:21:26,207 Speaker 1: men one of the things that I wanted to ask 390 00:21:26,247 --> 00:21:29,567 Speaker 1: you about so things, and with Dylan for various reasons. 391 00:21:29,887 --> 00:21:32,127 Speaker 1: Then the other relationships as we go through the book, 392 00:21:32,167 --> 00:21:34,127 Speaker 1: and we'll get to Jake towards the end, which is 393 00:21:34,807 --> 00:21:37,367 Speaker 1: really interesting story. It is a lot of work. It's 394 00:21:37,407 --> 00:21:39,567 Speaker 1: a lot of emotional work as well as other kinds 395 00:21:39,567 --> 00:21:42,287 Speaker 1: of work in terms of you're getting amazing sex, but 396 00:21:42,407 --> 00:21:45,007 Speaker 1: these are also sort of relationships that need nurturing, aren't 397 00:21:45,007 --> 00:21:46,207 Speaker 1: they was that part. 398 00:21:46,127 --> 00:21:49,367 Speaker 2: Of it in some ways. The work really was on 399 00:21:49,407 --> 00:21:52,887 Speaker 2: myself to force myself to be more aggressive, to be 400 00:21:52,967 --> 00:21:55,087 Speaker 2: more proactive, and to make sure that I didn't get 401 00:21:55,087 --> 00:21:57,247 Speaker 2: too attached to any of them, because I think I 402 00:21:57,287 --> 00:21:59,807 Speaker 2: could have quite easily gotten attached to them and that 403 00:21:59,847 --> 00:22:02,887 Speaker 2: would have been a disaster. It's much easier emotionally if 404 00:22:02,927 --> 00:22:05,327 Speaker 2: you're not that attached. And I have to tell you, 405 00:22:05,367 --> 00:22:08,767 Speaker 2: I'm so humiliated to admit this, but this is something 406 00:22:08,887 --> 00:22:11,807 Speaker 2: that aged men have understood for a very long time 407 00:22:12,287 --> 00:22:14,647 Speaker 2: that after you get divorced, you date a lot of people, 408 00:22:14,767 --> 00:22:16,927 Speaker 2: you don't get attached to any of them. You just 409 00:22:16,967 --> 00:22:19,447 Speaker 2: try them all out and then if you feel like it, 410 00:22:19,487 --> 00:22:21,727 Speaker 2: you settle down with one. I was doing the exact 411 00:22:21,727 --> 00:22:23,887 Speaker 2: same thing, but I had never been raised to do that. 412 00:22:23,967 --> 00:22:26,407 Speaker 2: I didn't know women could do that, And so the 413 00:22:26,567 --> 00:22:30,047 Speaker 2: trick was to find the men, to approach the men, 414 00:22:30,127 --> 00:22:31,887 Speaker 2: and to convince the men. And the men took a 415 00:22:31,927 --> 00:22:33,967 Speaker 2: lot of convincing, believe it or not, and I don't 416 00:22:34,007 --> 00:22:37,127 Speaker 2: really understand why. I think they couldn't believe it that 417 00:22:37,447 --> 00:22:41,887 Speaker 2: this woman was being so forward. And I made it 418 00:22:41,967 --> 00:22:44,887 Speaker 2: quite clear to them pretty early on that I was 419 00:22:45,167 --> 00:22:48,207 Speaker 2: not interested in a committed relationship. I didn't want them 420 00:22:48,247 --> 00:22:50,287 Speaker 2: to take me out to dinner, and I wanted them 421 00:22:50,327 --> 00:22:52,407 Speaker 2: to come to my house and have sex. That's what 422 00:22:52,447 --> 00:22:56,087 Speaker 2: I wanted. And once they got that, most of them 423 00:22:56,127 --> 00:22:57,887 Speaker 2: were fine with it. They're still, to my surprise, there's 424 00:22:57,927 --> 00:23:00,247 Speaker 2: still a few who said, no, that's not what they wanted. 425 00:23:00,367 --> 00:23:02,767 Speaker 2: They wanted a relationship. But the next one, after Dylan, 426 00:23:03,007 --> 00:23:05,607 Speaker 2: was a man I met work. He was in his twenties, 427 00:23:06,207 --> 00:23:09,887 Speaker 2: really hot again and very adventurous sexually, and he had 428 00:23:09,927 --> 00:23:14,207 Speaker 2: always liked older women. So that happened very quickly and easily. 429 00:23:14,527 --> 00:23:16,767 Speaker 2: And then, as I write in the book, after we 430 00:23:16,807 --> 00:23:21,527 Speaker 2: had had this afternoon of glorious adventurous sex of all kinds. 431 00:23:24,007 --> 00:23:26,047 Speaker 2: I had to take my daughter to a sporting event, 432 00:23:26,087 --> 00:23:28,447 Speaker 2: and while I was watching her play sports, he texted 433 00:23:28,487 --> 00:23:30,967 Speaker 2: me that said, that was great, but it has to 434 00:23:31,007 --> 00:23:33,047 Speaker 2: be a one time thing because I have a girlfriend. 435 00:23:33,487 --> 00:23:35,847 Speaker 2: And you know, if I had been dating him, if 436 00:23:35,887 --> 00:23:37,527 Speaker 2: I had gone on a dating app and it had 437 00:23:37,567 --> 00:23:39,927 Speaker 2: made myself vulnerable and all of that, I would have 438 00:23:40,007 --> 00:23:45,407 Speaker 2: been furious and really hurt. But because this was just casual, 439 00:23:46,007 --> 00:23:48,007 Speaker 2: I just laughed. I couldn't have cared less. And also 440 00:23:48,007 --> 00:23:50,407 Speaker 2: I knew he'd be back, and he was back. It 441 00:23:50,447 --> 00:23:52,927 Speaker 2: was sort of light and breezy, and I'd never approached 442 00:23:53,007 --> 00:23:55,407 Speaker 2: dating that way. I'd never approached dating as a buffet 443 00:23:55,887 --> 00:23:58,727 Speaker 2: right that I want that, I want that I want that. 444 00:23:58,807 --> 00:24:02,967 Speaker 2: I'd always I bought this kind of societal bs that 445 00:24:03,607 --> 00:24:06,847 Speaker 2: as a woman you need to find one man, as 446 00:24:06,887 --> 00:24:09,927 Speaker 2: if you find one food that you want to eat 447 00:24:09,967 --> 00:24:11,567 Speaker 2: for the rest of your life, and that's the only 448 00:24:11,607 --> 00:24:14,127 Speaker 2: food you can ever have. That's what I thought, Like, 449 00:24:14,207 --> 00:24:16,327 Speaker 2: no wonder it hadn't worked, No wonder I'd had two 450 00:24:16,367 --> 00:24:19,767 Speaker 2: failed marriages. My approach was just completely wrong, And it 451 00:24:19,807 --> 00:24:22,407 Speaker 2: was much easier when I took it all a little 452 00:24:22,607 --> 00:24:25,047 Speaker 2: more lightheartedly and not seriously. 453 00:24:25,687 --> 00:24:27,647 Speaker 1: It's so interesting that you say that some of the 454 00:24:27,727 --> 00:24:30,847 Speaker 1: men needed convincing, because I guess in the cultural norms 455 00:24:30,847 --> 00:24:33,807 Speaker 1: we've all agreed upon, they don't believe you when you're 456 00:24:33,887 --> 00:24:36,767 Speaker 1: saying I don't want a relationship. They're like, but women 457 00:24:36,847 --> 00:24:40,407 Speaker 1: always want relationships, don't they. And one of the wonderful 458 00:24:40,447 --> 00:24:44,087 Speaker 1: things about midlife is that I see younger women who 459 00:24:44,087 --> 00:24:48,247 Speaker 1: are rushing to choose a life partner. And that's a 460 00:24:48,447 --> 00:24:52,367 Speaker 1: very different game than, as you say, choosing from the 461 00:24:52,407 --> 00:24:56,007 Speaker 1: buffet of experiences I want to have. So were you 462 00:24:56,087 --> 00:24:58,807 Speaker 1: thinking when you were choosing your boyfriends or gone through this, 463 00:24:59,247 --> 00:25:02,527 Speaker 1: I've never done x y z in bed or I've 464 00:25:02,567 --> 00:25:05,607 Speaker 1: never slept with a guy who x yzed? Was that 465 00:25:05,647 --> 00:25:07,927 Speaker 1: part of it? Like going back to what do I 466 00:25:08,007 --> 00:25:10,207 Speaker 1: really want and what do I want? I want to try? 467 00:25:10,247 --> 00:25:12,407 Speaker 1: And what have I never done? Was that part of 468 00:25:12,447 --> 00:25:14,127 Speaker 1: the excitement of it. 469 00:25:14,127 --> 00:25:16,687 Speaker 2: It was like getting out of jail in a way, 470 00:25:17,207 --> 00:25:20,447 Speaker 2: because the jail that I had been in that a 471 00:25:20,487 --> 00:25:22,407 Speaker 2: lot of women are in, is that I thought, I 472 00:25:22,447 --> 00:25:25,007 Speaker 2: need to pick a partner. He needs to be a 473 00:25:25,047 --> 00:25:27,847 Speaker 2: stable person, he needs to be a good provider, he 474 00:25:27,887 --> 00:25:29,767 Speaker 2: needs to be a good dad. I've been very focused 475 00:25:29,767 --> 00:25:34,287 Speaker 2: on that since my late teenage years. And what I 476 00:25:34,327 --> 00:25:37,647 Speaker 2: discovered at age forty nine, already having had my kids, 477 00:25:37,767 --> 00:25:40,727 Speaker 2: having very little desire to get married again, was that 478 00:25:40,847 --> 00:25:43,367 Speaker 2: the world opened up to me that I could date 479 00:25:43,447 --> 00:25:46,367 Speaker 2: men who were ten years older, twenty years younger. I 480 00:25:46,367 --> 00:25:49,207 Speaker 2: could date men of different ethnicities, I could date men 481 00:25:49,247 --> 00:25:51,887 Speaker 2: of different religions. I could date men who I had 482 00:25:52,087 --> 00:25:54,447 Speaker 2: very little in common with because they weren't going to 483 00:25:54,447 --> 00:25:57,447 Speaker 2: be my partners. So all of a sudden, every man 484 00:25:57,487 --> 00:25:59,367 Speaker 2: on the street was fair game as long as I 485 00:25:59,487 --> 00:26:02,927 Speaker 2: liked it. And I think another reason that the men 486 00:26:03,007 --> 00:26:06,727 Speaker 2: took some convincing is that I don't like slimy men. 487 00:26:06,927 --> 00:26:08,687 Speaker 2: I don't like men who just want to have sex. 488 00:26:09,327 --> 00:26:12,727 Speaker 2: I wanted men who had more substance to them and 489 00:26:12,767 --> 00:26:15,447 Speaker 2: who I actually liked. I've never had a true one 490 00:26:15,527 --> 00:26:18,087 Speaker 2: night stand in my life. I needed there to be 491 00:26:18,167 --> 00:26:21,567 Speaker 2: something more there, and the men I picked knew that too, 492 00:26:21,607 --> 00:26:23,567 Speaker 2: so it just took them a while to figure out, like, well, 493 00:26:23,567 --> 00:26:26,047 Speaker 2: this woman is interested in me, but she really truly 494 00:26:26,087 --> 00:26:28,967 Speaker 2: only wants a casual relationship. And also I think that 495 00:26:29,047 --> 00:26:31,327 Speaker 2: some of them at the beginning thought I was crazy. 496 00:26:31,447 --> 00:26:33,407 Speaker 2: They're like, there's no way this can be true, and 497 00:26:33,487 --> 00:26:36,247 Speaker 2: so I would have to really convince them. No, we're 498 00:26:36,247 --> 00:26:38,847 Speaker 2: not going to talk about who else you're seeing. We're 499 00:26:38,887 --> 00:26:40,647 Speaker 2: not going to talk about your girlfriend. We're not going 500 00:26:40,687 --> 00:26:42,687 Speaker 2: to talk about what you've got going on. I'm not 501 00:26:42,727 --> 00:26:44,567 Speaker 2: going to talk about that either. We're going to see 502 00:26:44,567 --> 00:26:46,367 Speaker 2: each other when we feel like it, and we're going 503 00:26:46,447 --> 00:26:48,407 Speaker 2: to have a great time, and there are no strings 504 00:26:48,407 --> 00:26:50,887 Speaker 2: attached for me or you. It was just a very 505 00:26:50,887 --> 00:26:51,727 Speaker 2: different paradigm. 506 00:26:51,967 --> 00:26:54,007 Speaker 1: And you've just talked about some of the boundaries we're 507 00:26:54,047 --> 00:26:56,927 Speaker 1: not talking about other people. What other boundaries did you 508 00:26:56,967 --> 00:26:59,207 Speaker 1: have in place to make sure that these relationships didn't 509 00:26:59,247 --> 00:27:01,487 Speaker 1: get too messy. I also just wanted to ask if 510 00:27:01,527 --> 00:27:04,367 Speaker 1: you had ever worried about your safety. It sounds like 511 00:27:04,407 --> 00:27:06,967 Speaker 1: you vetted them pretty well in a way, like in 512 00:27:07,047 --> 00:27:09,007 Speaker 1: terms of you've got to know them a little bit. 513 00:27:09,327 --> 00:27:11,527 Speaker 1: You've got a good write for this, having had an 514 00:27:11,567 --> 00:27:12,767 Speaker 1: abusive marriage yourself. 515 00:27:13,247 --> 00:27:16,047 Speaker 2: It's true. I was never I never felt unsafe. I 516 00:27:16,087 --> 00:27:18,487 Speaker 2: had a list of things that I needed in these guys. 517 00:27:18,607 --> 00:27:21,167 Speaker 2: They had to think I was really hot. I had 518 00:27:21,167 --> 00:27:23,207 Speaker 2: to think they were hot. They had to be fun, 519 00:27:23,447 --> 00:27:26,087 Speaker 2: and they had to be nice. So you know, it's 520 00:27:26,127 --> 00:27:28,247 Speaker 2: a relatively short list, but it got me through so 521 00:27:28,327 --> 00:27:31,007 Speaker 2: that these are people who I felt safe with. I also, 522 00:27:31,247 --> 00:27:34,367 Speaker 2: I really liked dating younger men because they didn't want 523 00:27:34,367 --> 00:27:36,967 Speaker 2: a relationship with an older woman. They wanted an experiment 524 00:27:37,127 --> 00:27:39,967 Speaker 2: and to have some fun. But there weren't any twenty 525 00:27:40,047 --> 00:27:42,407 Speaker 2: nine year olds who really wanted to settle down with 526 00:27:42,447 --> 00:27:45,447 Speaker 2: a woman who was past her child bearing years. So 527 00:27:45,967 --> 00:27:48,567 Speaker 2: that worked for me fine. The boundaries, I think were 528 00:27:48,687 --> 00:27:52,127 Speaker 2: very easy to negotiate because I think men are actually 529 00:27:52,407 --> 00:27:55,727 Speaker 2: much much better with boundaries than women are. And so 530 00:27:56,047 --> 00:27:58,567 Speaker 2: once I was able to convince them that I wasn't 531 00:27:58,607 --> 00:28:00,847 Speaker 2: crazy and that this was all I wanted is, you know, 532 00:28:00,887 --> 00:28:04,007 Speaker 2: to see them occasionally and have a wonderful time in bed, 533 00:28:04,567 --> 00:28:06,167 Speaker 2: they got with a programm really fast. 534 00:28:06,487 --> 00:28:09,247 Speaker 1: What about sexual boundaries. You've said you wanted to try 535 00:28:09,447 --> 00:28:11,967 Speaker 1: all kinds of things that you hadn't tried, or not 536 00:28:11,967 --> 00:28:14,407 Speaker 1: necessarily that you hadn't tried, but that you certainly weren't 537 00:28:14,447 --> 00:28:19,247 Speaker 1: getting in your marriage necessarily. Was it a wonderful experience 538 00:28:19,327 --> 00:28:22,327 Speaker 1: to try all these things and then pick I love that, 539 00:28:22,407 --> 00:28:24,487 Speaker 1: I don't love that, this is what I want to do? 540 00:28:24,607 --> 00:28:27,567 Speaker 2: What was that, Like, yes, it was magnificent. It was 541 00:28:27,607 --> 00:28:31,367 Speaker 2: mostly magnificent, not because of the experimenting, not because of 542 00:28:31,407 --> 00:28:34,047 Speaker 2: the new positions or the new things we did, but 543 00:28:34,327 --> 00:28:39,527 Speaker 2: just because I was seeking adoration from so many men 544 00:28:39,567 --> 00:28:42,407 Speaker 2: at once. So for once in my life, I felt 545 00:28:42,447 --> 00:28:46,447 Speaker 2: like I was getting inundated with men who thought I 546 00:28:46,567 --> 00:28:49,287 Speaker 2: was fantastic, not just sexually but in every way, Like 547 00:28:49,327 --> 00:28:52,327 Speaker 2: I was like a goddess to them, and that was 548 00:28:52,367 --> 00:28:54,687 Speaker 2: exactly what I needed. I think it's what every woman 549 00:28:54,767 --> 00:28:58,927 Speaker 2: needs a lot of. And I just felt exhilarated that 550 00:28:58,967 --> 00:29:01,607 Speaker 2: I was getting it. And there were a few, you know, failures, 551 00:29:02,287 --> 00:29:05,327 Speaker 2: men that who I didn't really click with sexually, but 552 00:29:05,687 --> 00:29:08,887 Speaker 2: that was you know, easy to not repeat. And the 553 00:29:08,967 --> 00:29:12,287 Speaker 2: men who I had long term, you know, more than 554 00:29:12,767 --> 00:29:16,567 Speaker 2: a few times sexual relationships with, It was incredible because 555 00:29:16,607 --> 00:29:19,287 Speaker 2: we got to know each other really well sexually. Kind 556 00:29:19,447 --> 00:29:22,687 Speaker 2: words were exchanged. There was one man who told me 557 00:29:23,007 --> 00:29:24,687 Speaker 2: over and over again he still tells me that he 558 00:29:24,727 --> 00:29:27,247 Speaker 2: loves me. I think he really does, even though he 559 00:29:27,247 --> 00:29:29,967 Speaker 2: didn't want to be in a committed relationship. It was 560 00:29:30,047 --> 00:29:33,687 Speaker 2: real love. So that was absolutely lovely and wonderful. And yes, 561 00:29:33,727 --> 00:29:35,007 Speaker 2: we did do things that you know, there was a 562 00:29:35,087 --> 00:29:38,247 Speaker 2: lot of oral sex involved. I had had anal sex 563 00:29:38,247 --> 00:29:40,087 Speaker 2: when I was a teenager because I had a very 564 00:29:40,127 --> 00:29:44,327 Speaker 2: experimental boyfriend, very fortunate. But he, honestly, this will make 565 00:29:44,367 --> 00:29:46,207 Speaker 2: you laugh. He didn't know that you were supposed to 566 00:29:46,287 --> 00:29:47,927 Speaker 2: use lubrication for anal sex. 567 00:29:48,247 --> 00:29:49,887 Speaker 1: Oh oh oh oh. 568 00:29:50,207 --> 00:29:52,367 Speaker 2: So it had really hurt and that would have put 569 00:29:52,487 --> 00:29:53,807 Speaker 2: you off. But I was like, you know what, I 570 00:29:53,807 --> 00:29:55,727 Speaker 2: wanted to try that again, and we'll use a lot 571 00:29:55,767 --> 00:29:58,247 Speaker 2: of lube this time. And you know, there was a 572 00:29:58,287 --> 00:30:01,887 Speaker 2: lot of fun like that, having sex outdoors, having sex 573 00:30:01,887 --> 00:30:03,887 Speaker 2: in the middle of the day, having a man drive 574 00:30:04,447 --> 00:30:06,487 Speaker 2: two and a half hours to have sex with me 575 00:30:06,567 --> 00:30:08,927 Speaker 2: in the two hour window that I had that day. 576 00:30:09,247 --> 00:30:10,927 Speaker 2: I was all thrilling and it made me feel good. 577 00:30:10,967 --> 00:30:12,527 Speaker 2: And you know what, I wanted to say one other 578 00:30:12,567 --> 00:30:15,207 Speaker 2: thing about boundaries that you asked about. I did have 579 00:30:15,247 --> 00:30:18,247 Speaker 2: some rules that I think it's important to think about 580 00:30:18,247 --> 00:30:19,927 Speaker 2: if you're going to embark on this kind of adventure. 581 00:30:20,447 --> 00:30:24,247 Speaker 2: I never, and I mean never, even flirted with somebody 582 00:30:24,287 --> 00:30:28,007 Speaker 2: whose wife or former wife I knew. Never. I didn't 583 00:30:28,047 --> 00:30:30,647 Speaker 2: like needy men, and I also I did not like 584 00:30:30,687 --> 00:30:33,567 Speaker 2: men with young children. I just I felt too bad 585 00:30:33,567 --> 00:30:36,367 Speaker 2: about I needed men who really were unencumbered and who 586 00:30:36,407 --> 00:30:39,127 Speaker 2: were free, and who were not cheating liars. 587 00:30:39,647 --> 00:30:42,527 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's not necessarily your business if they are 588 00:30:42,527 --> 00:30:47,007 Speaker 1: in another relationship, but you're certainly not husband hunting at 589 00:30:47,047 --> 00:30:51,087 Speaker 1: the school parenting tonight. That's not what we're doing here. 590 00:30:51,247 --> 00:30:53,007 Speaker 2: I couldn't have done that. That would have been so 591 00:30:53,007 --> 00:30:54,647 Speaker 2: so awful. And I also I dated a lot of 592 00:30:54,687 --> 00:30:58,007 Speaker 2: men who were in the process of separating and getting divorced, 593 00:30:58,047 --> 00:31:00,247 Speaker 2: and I didn't ask many questions about that either. Yeah, 594 00:31:00,287 --> 00:31:03,327 Speaker 2: because again I felt like, that's not my business, your business, Leslie. 595 00:31:03,367 --> 00:31:05,687 Speaker 1: I just want to tell you how refreshing and wonderful 596 00:31:05,687 --> 00:31:08,687 Speaker 1: it was to hear you say I wanted to be 597 00:31:08,727 --> 00:31:12,847 Speaker 1: adored and every woman needs that sometimes because you know what, 598 00:31:12,927 --> 00:31:16,007 Speaker 1: I think that we are told all the time, like 599 00:31:16,287 --> 00:31:17,967 Speaker 1: you know, who do you think you are? You know 600 00:31:17,967 --> 00:31:19,487 Speaker 1: what I mean, who do you think you are? Why 601 00:31:19,527 --> 00:31:22,807 Speaker 1: should you be treated that? Well? Like, it's a very 602 00:31:22,847 --> 00:31:25,527 Speaker 1: bold thing for women to say. I wanted to be 603 00:31:25,567 --> 00:31:27,927 Speaker 1: treated like a goddess. I wanted them to worship me. 604 00:31:28,087 --> 00:31:30,247 Speaker 1: I needed that to help put myself back together, just 605 00:31:30,247 --> 00:31:33,527 Speaker 1: to feel like me again, did you cop judgment from 606 00:31:33,647 --> 00:31:38,967 Speaker 1: people in your life? For doing something so unashamedly positively. 607 00:31:39,087 --> 00:31:41,007 Speaker 1: You focused. No. 608 00:31:41,607 --> 00:31:44,127 Speaker 2: I think that people women saw what I was doing, 609 00:31:44,327 --> 00:31:46,767 Speaker 2: and the only negative thing is they might have been 610 00:31:46,767 --> 00:31:49,007 Speaker 2: a little bit envious of it. A lot of other 611 00:31:49,047 --> 00:31:51,447 Speaker 2: women had done what I did, but not so publicly, 612 00:31:51,687 --> 00:31:54,447 Speaker 2: and they came and quietly told me to keep going, 613 00:31:54,487 --> 00:31:56,807 Speaker 2: that they were still doing it. And also men really 614 00:31:56,887 --> 00:31:59,967 Speaker 2: loved it. Men responded very positively. But I just want 615 00:32:00,007 --> 00:32:02,567 Speaker 2: to unpack what you just said about the fact that 616 00:32:03,087 --> 00:32:06,447 Speaker 2: we women are raised to be ashamed of thinking that 617 00:32:06,487 --> 00:32:10,647 Speaker 2: we deserve a lot of that goddess adoration. And the 618 00:32:10,727 --> 00:32:13,647 Speaker 2: reason we are taught that is because it's a lot 619 00:32:13,687 --> 00:32:17,047 Speaker 2: easier for men if they don't have to adore us 620 00:32:17,647 --> 00:32:21,047 Speaker 2: and they don't have to seduce us. And they have 621 00:32:21,127 --> 00:32:24,327 Speaker 2: set it up so that we think we don't deserve it. 622 00:32:24,527 --> 00:32:30,247 Speaker 2: We don't deserve the flowers and the compliments. And the science, unfortunately, 623 00:32:30,367 --> 00:32:32,767 Speaker 2: is not in men's favor, because the science is that 624 00:32:32,807 --> 00:32:36,687 Speaker 2: what is an aphrodisiac for women sexually is to be seduced, 625 00:32:36,927 --> 00:32:39,647 Speaker 2: to be chased, to be treated like a goddess, and 626 00:32:39,727 --> 00:32:42,647 Speaker 2: it is the thing that goes out the window almost 627 00:32:42,647 --> 00:32:45,607 Speaker 2: immediately in most marriages. Most men think, oh, I don't 628 00:32:45,607 --> 00:32:47,727 Speaker 2: have to do that anymore. She's here, she's in the 629 00:32:47,727 --> 00:32:49,367 Speaker 2: bed with me. I can have sex with her whenever 630 00:32:49,407 --> 00:32:51,447 Speaker 2: I want. I don't even have to be nice to her, 631 00:32:51,487 --> 00:32:53,127 Speaker 2: and she has to have sex with me. And in 632 00:32:53,167 --> 00:32:56,167 Speaker 2: some countries it's literally true you're obligated to have sex 633 00:32:56,167 --> 00:33:00,887 Speaker 2: with your husband. But even in progressive democracies where women 634 00:33:00,927 --> 00:33:03,687 Speaker 2: have rights, men very much think that they don't have 635 00:33:03,727 --> 00:33:06,167 Speaker 2: to seduce women anymore. I say to men and to 636 00:33:06,207 --> 00:33:08,807 Speaker 2: women all the time, if you're married and your wife 637 00:33:08,807 --> 00:33:11,047 Speaker 2: doesn't want sex with you, it's your fault. It's not 638 00:33:11,087 --> 00:33:15,087 Speaker 2: her fault. It's because you have stopped trying to seduce her. 639 00:33:15,207 --> 00:33:18,287 Speaker 1: Amen, leslie, Amen. And you know what, there would be 640 00:33:18,327 --> 00:33:20,767 Speaker 1: people who listened to this and would say, oh, you're 641 00:33:20,767 --> 00:33:23,367 Speaker 1: not even allowed to seduce a woman anymore, Like you're 642 00:33:23,407 --> 00:33:25,687 Speaker 1: not even allowed to say. But one of the things 643 00:33:25,687 --> 00:33:28,167 Speaker 1: I very much heard and understood from you when you 644 00:33:28,207 --> 00:33:30,927 Speaker 1: said I don't like slimy men, I don't like creepy men. 645 00:33:31,087 --> 00:33:36,167 Speaker 1: Women have a very good radar for when a man 646 00:33:36,807 --> 00:33:41,447 Speaker 1: is sexually harassing them in an inappropriate way, or when 647 00:33:41,687 --> 00:33:44,687 Speaker 1: this is a positive exchange that we're both into. Like 648 00:33:44,767 --> 00:33:47,127 Speaker 1: women know that difference. Wouldn't you agree? 649 00:33:47,327 --> 00:33:49,847 Speaker 2: It's true? But it's because we've been dealing with it 650 00:33:49,887 --> 00:33:53,127 Speaker 2: since we were eight years old, and we understand what 651 00:33:53,367 --> 00:33:57,407 Speaker 2: is an aggressive, slimy come on, and what is really 652 00:33:57,447 --> 00:34:01,967 Speaker 2: a man who appreciates us and who almost more importantly, 653 00:34:02,607 --> 00:34:04,927 Speaker 2: is a man who loves women. I mean, those are 654 00:34:04,967 --> 00:34:06,647 Speaker 2: the type of men I look for. Are the men 655 00:34:06,647 --> 00:34:08,727 Speaker 2: who have gone through their whole life thinking women are 656 00:34:08,887 --> 00:34:12,567 Speaker 2: fantastic and they're very lucky to be a man, and 657 00:34:12,567 --> 00:34:15,567 Speaker 2: that women. We smell good, we taste good, We're soft, 658 00:34:15,687 --> 00:34:18,087 Speaker 2: we're gentle, we're wonderful. That's the kind of man that 659 00:34:18,127 --> 00:34:20,727 Speaker 2: I'm looking for. I don't want that man who wants 660 00:34:20,767 --> 00:34:22,847 Speaker 2: to corner me and force me to do something I 661 00:34:22,887 --> 00:34:24,567 Speaker 2: don't want to do. I've dealt with enough of that. 662 00:34:24,727 --> 00:34:26,687 Speaker 2: It terrifies me. It's terrified me since I was a 663 00:34:26,767 --> 00:34:29,087 Speaker 2: very young girl with good reason, and most women are 664 00:34:29,127 --> 00:34:29,327 Speaker 2: like that. 665 00:34:29,847 --> 00:34:34,247 Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. After the break, Leslie takes us 666 00:34:34,247 --> 00:34:37,327 Speaker 1: through what happened when she actually fell in love again. 667 00:34:40,687 --> 00:34:43,487 Speaker 1: Let's get to Jake. You did know Jake. He was 668 00:34:43,567 --> 00:34:46,847 Speaker 1: not a stranger from an airport. He was from your 669 00:34:46,887 --> 00:34:47,647 Speaker 1: school days. 670 00:34:48,087 --> 00:34:49,927 Speaker 2: I'm just going to get so sad, even though it's 671 00:34:49,927 --> 00:34:52,847 Speaker 2: been so long. To me, it's such a sad story. 672 00:34:53,447 --> 00:34:55,967 Speaker 2: So Jake, I had dated him when I was in 673 00:34:56,047 --> 00:34:59,687 Speaker 2: high school. He was two years younger than me in 674 00:34:59,767 --> 00:35:02,527 Speaker 2: high school, but we had a lot in common. He 675 00:35:02,607 --> 00:35:07,367 Speaker 2: was also a writer. He was a wonderful, wonderful young man. 676 00:35:07,607 --> 00:35:10,887 Speaker 2: When I was eighteen and he was sixteen, and we 677 00:35:10,967 --> 00:35:14,687 Speaker 2: had had a kind of ill fated romance because he 678 00:35:14,807 --> 00:35:17,327 Speaker 2: was just too young and I was kind of dealing 679 00:35:17,407 --> 00:35:20,247 Speaker 2: with a lot of problems in my family and other distractions, 680 00:35:20,287 --> 00:35:23,207 Speaker 2: and so we had dated only for a few months, 681 00:35:23,247 --> 00:35:24,887 Speaker 2: and he had thought he was going to lose his 682 00:35:24,967 --> 00:35:27,647 Speaker 2: virginity to me, and he was very, very sad that 683 00:35:27,727 --> 00:35:31,327 Speaker 2: he hadn't. So he had always held a candle, you know, 684 00:35:31,527 --> 00:35:33,767 Speaker 2: a torch for me. And we'd stayed friends for a 685 00:35:33,847 --> 00:35:37,927 Speaker 2: long time, for over twenty years. We both became successful writers. 686 00:35:38,127 --> 00:35:40,567 Speaker 2: We talked several times a year, and I had met 687 00:35:40,607 --> 00:35:43,207 Speaker 2: every girlfriend he'd ever had, and I thought they were 688 00:35:43,407 --> 00:35:46,447 Speaker 2: all that he was punching below his weight. And so 689 00:35:46,847 --> 00:35:50,927 Speaker 2: we reunited. He had had a book published and he'd 690 00:35:50,967 --> 00:35:53,207 Speaker 2: come to my town and I went to the book reading, 691 00:35:53,247 --> 00:35:55,767 Speaker 2: and I was very happy for him, and then, to 692 00:35:55,887 --> 00:35:58,367 Speaker 2: my shock, he rang my door ball later that night, 693 00:35:58,727 --> 00:36:03,927 Speaker 2: and I hadn't been expecting him, and it was incredibly romantic. 694 00:36:04,287 --> 00:36:06,207 Speaker 2: He told me he had been waiting for me forever, 695 00:36:06,407 --> 00:36:09,647 Speaker 2: and we had sex in every room of my house night, 696 00:36:09,927 --> 00:36:12,247 Speaker 2: on every piece of furniture, like we really made up 697 00:36:12,247 --> 00:36:17,007 Speaker 2: for lost time, and it was really unbelievably romantic. Eventually 698 00:36:17,327 --> 00:36:19,407 Speaker 2: he convinced me to get rid of all the other 699 00:36:19,447 --> 00:36:22,247 Speaker 2: boyfriends and to just be with him, and he seduced 700 00:36:22,287 --> 00:36:24,727 Speaker 2: me with his letters. He wrote me the most beautiful 701 00:36:25,047 --> 00:36:27,127 Speaker 2: letters in the world, and they're all in the Naked Truth. 702 00:36:27,167 --> 00:36:31,367 Speaker 2: I got his permission to reprint them, and I fell 703 00:36:31,887 --> 00:36:34,607 Speaker 2: so deeply in love with him. And I tell you, 704 00:36:35,167 --> 00:36:38,207 Speaker 2: there is nothing like the first person you fall in 705 00:36:38,207 --> 00:36:42,767 Speaker 2: love with after the end of a long, unhappy marriage. 706 00:36:43,047 --> 00:36:46,207 Speaker 2: Was I just was very vulnerable. He made me feel 707 00:36:46,247 --> 00:36:50,167 Speaker 2: beautiful and sexy and cherished and you know, literally like 708 00:36:50,167 --> 00:36:52,847 Speaker 2: he'd been waiting decades for me. And he was quite 709 00:36:52,887 --> 00:36:56,207 Speaker 2: a magnificent man. He was really handsome, really fit, he'd 710 00:36:56,207 --> 00:36:59,647 Speaker 2: never been married, he didn't have kids, wickedly funny and 711 00:37:00,087 --> 00:37:04,767 Speaker 2: unbelievable in the sack, I mean, made me scream with 712 00:37:04,847 --> 00:37:07,327 Speaker 2: pleasure in ways that I never had before. And it 713 00:37:07,407 --> 00:37:11,087 Speaker 2: was a two way street too. Were very very compatible sexually. 714 00:37:11,087 --> 00:37:13,167 Speaker 2: We couldn't keep our hands off each other even in public. 715 00:37:13,567 --> 00:37:15,927 Speaker 2: It was really an intoxicating relationship. It is the kind 716 00:37:15,927 --> 00:37:18,487 Speaker 2: of relationship a lot of people have in their teens 717 00:37:18,527 --> 00:37:21,567 Speaker 2: are twenties, and here we're having it in our early fifties. 718 00:37:21,887 --> 00:37:24,847 Speaker 2: And I started writing The Naked Truth when I was 719 00:37:24,887 --> 00:37:25,647 Speaker 2: still with him. 720 00:37:25,687 --> 00:37:26,687 Speaker 1: And he knew about that. 721 00:37:26,847 --> 00:37:27,727 Speaker 2: Oh, he knew all about it. 722 00:37:27,727 --> 00:37:29,327 Speaker 1: But and he knew about it at the time too. 723 00:37:29,527 --> 00:37:31,607 Speaker 2: Yes, he knew I was writing about him, and he 724 00:37:31,687 --> 00:37:33,967 Speaker 2: knew that I had had all these lovers. He was 725 00:37:34,087 --> 00:37:36,967 Speaker 2: very supportive of it, and the plot was going to 726 00:37:36,967 --> 00:37:39,687 Speaker 2: be after my five lovers and I found my one 727 00:37:39,727 --> 00:37:43,887 Speaker 2: true love. And the day I signed the book contract 728 00:37:43,887 --> 00:37:47,607 Speaker 2: for The Naked Truth, we broke up. And I was devastated. 729 00:37:48,007 --> 00:37:49,807 Speaker 2: He broke up with me, and I was devastated by 730 00:37:49,847 --> 00:37:51,207 Speaker 2: the ways that he did it and what I eventually 731 00:37:51,247 --> 00:37:56,887 Speaker 2: learned he'd been doing. But the writer in me, Holly, Oh, Scott. 732 00:37:56,647 --> 00:37:57,927 Speaker 1: Rubbed your hands together. 733 00:37:58,127 --> 00:38:01,887 Speaker 2: Okay, the ending just got so much better, so much 734 00:38:01,967 --> 00:38:05,847 Speaker 2: more real, because men are not the pot of gold 735 00:38:05,847 --> 00:38:08,087 Speaker 2: at the end of the rainbow. There are not there 736 00:38:08,167 --> 00:38:11,967 Speaker 2: is no prince charm. Yes, that mythology has gotten all 737 00:38:12,007 --> 00:38:13,567 Speaker 2: of us in so much trouble. And it's not fair 738 00:38:13,607 --> 00:38:15,327 Speaker 2: to men either, because they don't want to be prince charming. 739 00:38:15,367 --> 00:38:17,207 Speaker 2: It's a big burden to put on them. And so 740 00:38:17,327 --> 00:38:20,207 Speaker 2: I knew that the book had just gotten so much 741 00:38:20,247 --> 00:38:20,927 Speaker 2: more raw. 742 00:38:21,207 --> 00:38:24,767 Speaker 1: Oh leslie, Yes, because not in any way to discount 743 00:38:24,807 --> 00:38:26,887 Speaker 1: your heartbreak, which is very real and in the book. 744 00:38:26,967 --> 00:38:29,607 Speaker 1: I mean, it's really difficult because you can see how 745 00:38:29,647 --> 00:38:31,847 Speaker 1: painful that was. But in a way, if the book 746 00:38:31,927 --> 00:38:34,687 Speaker 1: had ended that way, it would have been a little 747 00:38:34,727 --> 00:38:39,807 Speaker 1: bit predictable, maybe not predictable, but like a bit too tidy. 748 00:38:40,087 --> 00:38:43,647 Speaker 2: And I would have sold out the Sisterhood because it 749 00:38:43,687 --> 00:38:46,647 Speaker 2: doesn't end like that. It never ends in happily ever after. 750 00:38:46,727 --> 00:38:48,647 Speaker 2: And what I want to say now, you know it's 751 00:38:48,727 --> 00:38:52,087 Speaker 2: ten years later and I'm going to turn sixty next year, 752 00:38:52,127 --> 00:38:55,727 Speaker 2: and I'm looking at true old age. People always say 753 00:38:55,727 --> 00:38:58,287 Speaker 2: to me, aren't you afraid? You know You're going to 754 00:38:58,367 --> 00:39:00,847 Speaker 2: die alone? And what I have to say is, you 755 00:39:00,887 --> 00:39:03,207 Speaker 2: know what, We are all going to die alone. We 756 00:39:03,247 --> 00:39:06,127 Speaker 2: are all going to die alone. Everybody knows this. And 757 00:39:06,447 --> 00:39:09,487 Speaker 2: have you met a man who is capable of taking 758 00:39:09,527 --> 00:39:12,247 Speaker 2: care of a woman, a dying woman, an aged woman, 759 00:39:12,727 --> 00:39:15,727 Speaker 2: older men. They don't put in their hearing aids. They're 760 00:39:15,847 --> 00:39:19,007 Speaker 2: terrible at advocating for anybody. They don't like hospitals, they 761 00:39:19,007 --> 00:39:20,967 Speaker 2: don't like this. There's no way on earth a man 762 00:39:21,087 --> 00:39:22,607 Speaker 2: is going to take care of us. I'm sorry to 763 00:39:22,647 --> 00:39:25,407 Speaker 2: tell everybody listening to it, but I'm actually happy to 764 00:39:25,407 --> 00:39:27,687 Speaker 2: tell you this because it's true. You're going to take 765 00:39:27,687 --> 00:39:29,727 Speaker 2: care of you, and the people are going to be 766 00:39:29,767 --> 00:39:32,487 Speaker 2: there for you are your best friends, male and female, 767 00:39:33,127 --> 00:39:35,567 Speaker 2: the healthcare system, and your children if you have them. 768 00:39:35,967 --> 00:39:37,487 Speaker 2: That's just going to take care of you. It's not 769 00:39:37,527 --> 00:39:39,647 Speaker 2: going to be a man. There's no happily ever after. 770 00:39:39,807 --> 00:39:43,727 Speaker 2: And men think that women are going to take care 771 00:39:43,767 --> 00:39:46,407 Speaker 2: of them, and they're right because we've been conditioned our 772 00:39:46,407 --> 00:39:47,927 Speaker 2: whole life to do it. I'm not going to do it, 773 00:39:47,967 --> 00:39:49,807 Speaker 2: and I would urge you to think about not doing it, 774 00:39:49,847 --> 00:39:51,127 Speaker 2: because there are a lot better things to do with 775 00:39:51,167 --> 00:39:53,407 Speaker 2: your life than take care of a man who would 776 00:39:53,447 --> 00:39:56,447 Speaker 2: never take care of you. Anyway. But anyway, I digrests. 777 00:39:56,487 --> 00:39:59,167 Speaker 1: I love that Brandt. We've just had a rash of 778 00:39:59,167 --> 00:40:01,807 Speaker 1: people at Mama May where I work. When we're writing 779 00:40:02,127 --> 00:40:05,567 Speaker 1: women talking about the men who've left them after serious diagnoses. 780 00:40:06,207 --> 00:40:09,927 Speaker 1: It is a shockingly common thing that happens anyway we 781 00:40:09,967 --> 00:40:11,847 Speaker 1: do digress. I want to go back to one thing 782 00:40:11,887 --> 00:40:14,287 Speaker 1: about Jake. That story is heartbreaking, But you know what 783 00:40:14,407 --> 00:40:19,327 Speaker 1: is very common in midlife when you are going through 784 00:40:19,327 --> 00:40:22,607 Speaker 1: a divorce is to either fantasize about, or act on 785 00:40:22,767 --> 00:40:27,807 Speaker 1: going back to a high school or an early adult relationship, right, 786 00:40:27,927 --> 00:40:32,847 Speaker 1: Because it's almost like reconnecting with who you were then. 787 00:40:33,047 --> 00:40:35,367 Speaker 1: And it's so beautiful the way you talk about that, 788 00:40:35,447 --> 00:40:38,527 Speaker 1: because for a while there it was like that you were, 789 00:40:38,687 --> 00:40:41,767 Speaker 1: as you said, making up for lost time, having this 790 00:40:41,887 --> 00:40:46,687 Speaker 1: insane connection that felt like teenage love again. But it 791 00:40:46,767 --> 00:40:50,207 Speaker 1: didn't play out that way, and very often these relationships don't. 792 00:40:50,287 --> 00:40:51,727 Speaker 1: Am I right, It's. 793 00:40:51,567 --> 00:40:55,087 Speaker 2: So true, And I say, beware the fantasy. I am 794 00:40:55,247 --> 00:40:59,407 Speaker 2: one of the best fantasizers ever born, and I can 795 00:40:59,487 --> 00:41:01,607 Speaker 2: make something out of nothing. And what I did with 796 00:41:01,727 --> 00:41:04,567 Speaker 2: Jake is I thought I knew him because I had 797 00:41:04,567 --> 00:41:06,967 Speaker 2: known him as a teenager, and a lot had happened 798 00:41:07,007 --> 00:41:08,967 Speaker 2: in the time between them, and I hadn't really known 799 00:41:09,007 --> 00:41:11,047 Speaker 2: him as a teenager either. I really hadn't. We hadn't 800 00:41:11,127 --> 00:41:13,487 Speaker 2: dated for long enough, so I thought I knew him, 801 00:41:13,487 --> 00:41:15,687 Speaker 2: and I made up this story in my head about 802 00:41:15,687 --> 00:41:17,607 Speaker 2: who he was, what our love was, that he hadn't 803 00:41:17,607 --> 00:41:20,687 Speaker 2: married anybody because he'd been waiting for me, that I 804 00:41:20,847 --> 00:41:23,247 Speaker 2: was his one true love. That's why he'd been unhappy 805 00:41:23,287 --> 00:41:26,727 Speaker 2: in other relationships, is why he cheated on every girlfriend 806 00:41:26,767 --> 00:41:29,727 Speaker 2: he'd ever had. It was because that girlfriend wasn't me. 807 00:41:30,247 --> 00:41:34,167 Speaker 2: And I ignored so many red flags. This is one 808 00:41:34,167 --> 00:41:36,727 Speaker 2: of my favorite red flags. The first gift that Jake 809 00:41:36,767 --> 00:41:38,647 Speaker 2: ever gave me is he gave me a book by 810 00:41:38,687 --> 00:41:41,367 Speaker 2: a very famous writer, and it's called This Is How 811 00:41:41,407 --> 00:41:43,847 Speaker 2: You Lose Her, and it is the story of a 812 00:41:43,887 --> 00:41:46,727 Speaker 2: man who reconnects with a girlfriend and he loses her 813 00:41:47,007 --> 00:41:50,247 Speaker 2: by cheating on her with hundreds of women. And that 814 00:41:50,367 --> 00:41:53,287 Speaker 2: is what Jake did to me. When we broke up. 815 00:41:53,407 --> 00:41:56,487 Speaker 2: He'd accused me of cheating on him, and he had 816 00:41:56,487 --> 00:41:58,527 Speaker 2: broken into my computer and into my phone, and he 817 00:41:58,567 --> 00:42:01,687 Speaker 2: had been essentially spying on me for months at the 818 00:42:01,727 --> 00:42:04,927 Speaker 2: same time he was cheating on me, and it was 819 00:42:05,327 --> 00:42:08,807 Speaker 2: absolutely devastating. I did not stop crying for about six months, 820 00:42:08,847 --> 00:42:11,527 Speaker 2: and it was so humiliating embarrassing. Here I am this 821 00:42:11,647 --> 00:42:14,687 Speaker 2: mom taking care of these kids with a great career, 822 00:42:14,927 --> 00:42:18,047 Speaker 2: and I cannot go to the supermarket without a box 823 00:42:18,087 --> 00:42:21,247 Speaker 2: of tissues. And I'm not exaggerating. And it's only now, 824 00:42:21,327 --> 00:42:24,367 Speaker 2: almost ten years later, that I cannot cry about it 825 00:42:24,407 --> 00:42:28,727 Speaker 2: and also just acknowledge what a horrible person he was 826 00:42:28,887 --> 00:42:32,087 Speaker 2: and that everybody could see it except for me, and 827 00:42:32,127 --> 00:42:34,407 Speaker 2: that I just made up a personality for him and 828 00:42:34,447 --> 00:42:35,927 Speaker 2: I fell in love with a fantasy. And I just 829 00:42:35,967 --> 00:42:39,207 Speaker 2: want to warn everybody listening, please don't do that. Please 830 00:42:39,247 --> 00:42:42,167 Speaker 2: don't do that. It's really dangerous and horrible. And I'm 831 00:42:42,327 --> 00:42:44,207 Speaker 2: really lucky I didn't marry him, that I didn't give 832 00:42:44,207 --> 00:42:46,447 Speaker 2: all my money to him, that I didn't alienate my 833 00:42:46,527 --> 00:42:49,567 Speaker 2: kids over him. I'm so lucky that he was so 834 00:42:49,767 --> 00:42:52,087 Speaker 2: fucked up that he broke up with me at that 835 00:42:52,247 --> 00:42:55,767 Speaker 2: point and moved on with the woman who is having 836 00:42:55,767 --> 00:42:58,887 Speaker 2: an affair with I'm so incredibly fortunate. I didn't feel 837 00:42:58,887 --> 00:43:01,047 Speaker 2: that way at the time, but now I'm so grateful 838 00:43:01,127 --> 00:43:02,167 Speaker 2: that that it happened that way. 839 00:43:02,647 --> 00:43:05,567 Speaker 1: It's interesting because one of the things about midlife is 840 00:43:05,567 --> 00:43:08,007 Speaker 1: that we think we're very wise, and we are. You know, 841 00:43:08,047 --> 00:43:10,687 Speaker 1: we've been through a lot of things, but we are 842 00:43:10,727 --> 00:43:13,367 Speaker 1: still as capable as we were when we were young, 843 00:43:13,527 --> 00:43:17,287 Speaker 1: of wanting to believe something so much, you know, just 844 00:43:17,407 --> 00:43:20,847 Speaker 1: wanting to ignoring all the things that we have learnt, 845 00:43:20,967 --> 00:43:25,527 Speaker 1: and just jumping in anyway before we move on to 846 00:43:25,687 --> 00:43:27,887 Speaker 1: just how life is now for you. And we won't 847 00:43:27,927 --> 00:43:29,287 Speaker 1: go through all of these because I want people to 848 00:43:29,327 --> 00:43:32,207 Speaker 1: read your wonderful book, Naked Truth. It is a great 849 00:43:32,247 --> 00:43:35,207 Speaker 1: read too. It's a rollicking page turner read. I love it. 850 00:43:35,567 --> 00:43:37,247 Speaker 1: But at the end you kind of give a little 851 00:43:37,327 --> 00:43:40,127 Speaker 1: cheat sheet to women who might be not necessarily going 852 00:43:40,167 --> 00:43:43,087 Speaker 1: I want to have five boyfriends, but who are rediscovering 853 00:43:43,127 --> 00:43:47,047 Speaker 1: their sexual self, their romantic self. And we've touched on 854 00:43:47,047 --> 00:43:49,167 Speaker 1: them a little bit when we're talking about airports. But 855 00:43:49,487 --> 00:43:51,607 Speaker 1: I wanted to just ask you about the best advice 856 00:43:51,607 --> 00:43:53,967 Speaker 1: you would give a woman who's listening to this, who's thinking, 857 00:43:54,567 --> 00:43:57,327 Speaker 1: maybe her self confidence has been destroyed by marriage or 858 00:43:57,327 --> 00:44:02,247 Speaker 1: a long relationship or whatever, and she wants to rediscover herself. 859 00:44:02,287 --> 00:44:04,767 Speaker 1: You say, go out solo as much as possible. 860 00:44:05,007 --> 00:44:07,527 Speaker 2: It is really true. Go out by yourself. You're much 861 00:44:07,527 --> 00:44:10,767 Speaker 2: more approachable when you travel by yourself. Go out to 862 00:44:10,807 --> 00:44:13,047 Speaker 2: the movies by yourself, go out to a restaurant, walk, 863 00:44:13,327 --> 00:44:16,807 Speaker 2: exercise all of the steff. Go out by yourself. That's 864 00:44:16,847 --> 00:44:19,887 Speaker 2: really important. Also, some of these things are so easy. 865 00:44:20,527 --> 00:44:25,327 Speaker 2: Smile at everybody. Smiling is really sexy and approachable. And 866 00:44:25,327 --> 00:44:28,007 Speaker 2: also smile at the women because you need more female 867 00:44:28,047 --> 00:44:30,167 Speaker 2: friends too. Just smile at everybody. And if you think 868 00:44:30,167 --> 00:44:33,047 Speaker 2: somebody slimy or they're you know, getting a little too 869 00:44:33,127 --> 00:44:36,407 Speaker 2: enthusiastic too fast, then run away. But you're not going 870 00:44:36,447 --> 00:44:39,927 Speaker 2: to do any harm by smiling at everybody. I also 871 00:44:39,967 --> 00:44:42,487 Speaker 2: think every time I leave the house, even if I'm 872 00:44:42,527 --> 00:44:44,727 Speaker 2: just taking out the trash, I look in the mirror 873 00:44:45,287 --> 00:44:49,127 Speaker 2: and I do something to make myself feel like I'm 874 00:44:49,127 --> 00:44:51,247 Speaker 2: my best self. Maybe I'll put on lipstick or eyeliner 875 00:44:51,487 --> 00:44:54,007 Speaker 2: or take out the trash in my high heeled cowboy 876 00:44:54,007 --> 00:44:57,927 Speaker 2: boots a lot. And it's because I want to strut. 877 00:44:58,327 --> 00:45:02,287 Speaker 2: I want to feel like I'm strutworthy. And it's not 878 00:45:02,447 --> 00:45:06,047 Speaker 2: the boots, it's the attitude. If you are walking down 879 00:45:06,047 --> 00:45:10,007 Speaker 2: the street like that, you look confident and you attract 880 00:45:10,007 --> 00:45:12,847 Speaker 2: attention and you are your best self on that. 881 00:45:12,887 --> 00:45:14,767 Speaker 1: Because I loved this one, and it might be a 882 00:45:14,767 --> 00:45:17,687 Speaker 1: bit surprising to people who you know are thinking about 883 00:45:17,687 --> 00:45:19,407 Speaker 1: you putting your lipstocon as you go to take the 884 00:45:19,407 --> 00:45:22,727 Speaker 1: trash out. But I love this. You say, be transparent 885 00:45:23,087 --> 00:45:25,407 Speaker 1: where as little makeup as possible. So this isn't about 886 00:45:25,407 --> 00:45:28,007 Speaker 1: the lipstick. It's about don't disguise who you are or 887 00:45:28,007 --> 00:45:31,647 Speaker 1: how old you are it doesn't work. That's really refreshing. 888 00:45:31,727 --> 00:45:34,527 Speaker 1: That's also some confidence right there, because I think it's 889 00:45:34,567 --> 00:45:37,727 Speaker 1: so deeply ingrained in us that our wrinkles are ugly, 890 00:45:38,167 --> 00:45:41,527 Speaker 1: our saggy bits are ugly. You know, put as much 891 00:45:41,527 --> 00:45:43,327 Speaker 1: makeup on as you can to cover that shit up, 892 00:45:43,687 --> 00:45:45,687 Speaker 1: do as many things as you can to try and 893 00:45:45,767 --> 00:45:49,207 Speaker 1: still look like thirty four year old you. But your 894 00:45:49,287 --> 00:45:52,887 Speaker 1: experiences that no, don't do that right, tell me why. 895 00:45:53,527 --> 00:45:57,127 Speaker 2: So you know, there are so many tropes that women 896 00:45:57,247 --> 00:46:00,007 Speaker 2: are taught from the time that we're very young that 897 00:46:00,367 --> 00:46:02,327 Speaker 2: you just have to throw all of them out. And 898 00:46:03,047 --> 00:46:05,967 Speaker 2: one of them is that after a certain age you're 899 00:46:05,967 --> 00:46:11,047 Speaker 2: invisible to men, that men don't notice women, and it's 900 00:46:11,087 --> 00:46:15,087 Speaker 2: just not true. Men are very visual and very physical 901 00:46:15,127 --> 00:46:17,127 Speaker 2: and they are going to notice us until the day 902 00:46:17,167 --> 00:46:19,927 Speaker 2: we die. And some people want to be invisible and 903 00:46:19,927 --> 00:46:22,047 Speaker 2: that's so great, So go and be invisible. I don't 904 00:46:22,087 --> 00:46:23,887 Speaker 2: want to be invisible, and I think that honestly, most 905 00:46:23,887 --> 00:46:29,047 Speaker 2: people don't. And so it's part of being transparent is saying, hey, 906 00:46:29,087 --> 00:46:32,007 Speaker 2: i'm here. I'm here, and I like attention, and I 907 00:46:32,087 --> 00:46:34,527 Speaker 2: want attention, and I'm going to give you attention too, 908 00:46:34,567 --> 00:46:36,527 Speaker 2: because I'm going to meet your eyes, I'm going to 909 00:46:36,567 --> 00:46:38,287 Speaker 2: look into your eyes. I'm going to smile at you. 910 00:46:38,807 --> 00:46:40,807 Speaker 2: I don't know if this only happens in Washington, DC, 911 00:46:40,967 --> 00:46:44,367 Speaker 2: my hometown, but I have gotten so many marriage proposals 912 00:46:44,447 --> 00:46:46,727 Speaker 2: just walking down the street, Like a guy will lean 913 00:46:46,767 --> 00:46:48,647 Speaker 2: out his car window and say, hey, baby, you want 914 00:46:48,647 --> 00:46:49,207 Speaker 2: to marry me. 915 00:46:49,567 --> 00:46:51,487 Speaker 1: It's your vibe, blundly you'll vibe. 916 00:46:51,527 --> 00:46:54,887 Speaker 2: I don't ignore them. I just I stop in my tracks, 917 00:46:55,047 --> 00:46:59,047 Speaker 2: I start laughing, and I say sure, and most of 918 00:46:59,087 --> 00:47:02,527 Speaker 2: them keep driving. But it's just that attitude. It's like, 919 00:47:02,567 --> 00:47:05,487 Speaker 2: I appreciate men. I love men, even though they've broken 920 00:47:05,527 --> 00:47:08,807 Speaker 2: my heart so many times. I still really like men, 921 00:47:08,847 --> 00:47:11,607 Speaker 2: and I lead with that. So I don't try to 922 00:47:11,647 --> 00:47:13,167 Speaker 2: cover up my wrinkles. I have a lot of them. 923 00:47:13,207 --> 00:47:15,647 Speaker 2: I have a lot of saggy parts. I would say, though, 924 00:47:15,647 --> 00:47:18,127 Speaker 2: that there are a few things that women don't necessarily 925 00:47:18,127 --> 00:47:20,207 Speaker 2: think about and one of them. And I'm going to 926 00:47:20,287 --> 00:47:25,287 Speaker 2: get very superficial here. Your hair really matters, hair is 927 00:47:25,407 --> 00:47:28,487 Speaker 2: really sexy. Don't cut your hair really short unless that's 928 00:47:28,487 --> 00:47:30,887 Speaker 2: what you like. Yeah, we're told that once you have 929 00:47:30,967 --> 00:47:33,247 Speaker 2: kids you can't have long hair anymore, or once you're 930 00:47:33,287 --> 00:47:36,247 Speaker 2: over fifty you can't have long hair. Grow your hair 931 00:47:36,327 --> 00:47:38,727 Speaker 2: however you want, and dress however you wear. I wear 932 00:47:38,807 --> 00:47:42,487 Speaker 2: the shortest skirts that you've ever seen, and my cellulate 933 00:47:42,807 --> 00:47:45,567 Speaker 2: shows through it. And I don't care you do you 934 00:47:46,247 --> 00:47:48,487 Speaker 2: and just say, forget about it with all the rules, 935 00:47:48,887 --> 00:47:50,807 Speaker 2: do what makes you feel good inside. 936 00:47:50,927 --> 00:47:54,247 Speaker 1: I absolutely love that. It sounds like you are living 937 00:47:54,247 --> 00:47:57,847 Speaker 1: the absolute dream for a lot of women. Can I 938 00:47:57,887 --> 00:48:00,167 Speaker 1: ask you, though, and I know you've written about this before, 939 00:48:00,527 --> 00:48:04,367 Speaker 1: how important economic independence is in that picture right? Because 940 00:48:04,447 --> 00:48:06,047 Speaker 1: there may be a lot of women listening to this 941 00:48:06,647 --> 00:48:10,447 Speaker 1: who marriages or relationships might not be perfect, but they're thinking, well, 942 00:48:10,487 --> 00:48:13,647 Speaker 1: I couldn't do that, I couldn't live without them financially. 943 00:48:14,047 --> 00:48:15,967 Speaker 1: Do you think we don't put enough stock in planning 944 00:48:16,007 --> 00:48:16,687 Speaker 1: for that. 945 00:48:16,687 --> 00:48:19,407 Speaker 2: That is the lynchpin of my freedom, is that I'm 946 00:48:19,447 --> 00:48:22,327 Speaker 2: economically independent. And it's what I would say to any 947 00:48:22,367 --> 00:48:26,767 Speaker 2: woman listening, no matter what age you are invest in yourself, 948 00:48:26,927 --> 00:48:32,127 Speaker 2: your education, your work, and your bank account. Because if 949 00:48:32,167 --> 00:48:35,487 Speaker 2: I had not done that, and if I didn't stand 950 00:48:35,567 --> 00:48:38,287 Speaker 2: up for myself in my divorce for my second husbands, 951 00:48:38,287 --> 00:48:41,367 Speaker 2: stand up for myself financially, I wouldn't have the economic 952 00:48:41,407 --> 00:48:44,287 Speaker 2: freedom that I have and Holly, I would have had 953 00:48:44,287 --> 00:48:47,527 Speaker 2: to get married again. I would have had to. So 954 00:48:47,727 --> 00:48:51,687 Speaker 2: many women are forced into marriages in their fifties that 955 00:48:52,127 --> 00:48:53,767 Speaker 2: might not necessarily be what they want to do, and 956 00:48:53,807 --> 00:48:58,887 Speaker 2: then they're forced into being caretakers. So guard your financial independence. 957 00:48:59,807 --> 00:49:01,647 Speaker 2: That is the pot of gold at the end of 958 00:49:01,647 --> 00:49:03,767 Speaker 2: the rainbow. It is the literal pot of gold because 959 00:49:03,807 --> 00:49:06,047 Speaker 2: it allows me to live on my own and to 960 00:49:06,167 --> 00:49:08,127 Speaker 2: travel and to see my children, and to take care 961 00:49:08,127 --> 00:49:10,767 Speaker 2: of my children and to do everything that I want 962 00:49:10,807 --> 00:49:14,767 Speaker 2: to do. Of all the mythologies that women are sold, 963 00:49:15,327 --> 00:49:18,607 Speaker 2: the fact that we do not tell women how important 964 00:49:18,607 --> 00:49:22,687 Speaker 2: it is to be economically independent is the most dangerous 965 00:49:23,407 --> 00:49:27,087 Speaker 2: of those myths. That money doesn't matter, that economics don't matter, 966 00:49:27,367 --> 00:49:29,607 Speaker 2: and that you shouldn't fight for yourself financially, whether it's 967 00:49:29,647 --> 00:49:31,647 Speaker 2: fighting for a raise or fighting for a settlement and 968 00:49:31,647 --> 00:49:35,367 Speaker 2: divorce hogwash. You need to stand up for yourself, and 969 00:49:35,407 --> 00:49:37,247 Speaker 2: you need to encourage your female friends to fight for 970 00:49:37,287 --> 00:49:39,367 Speaker 2: themselves too, to ask for a raise, to ask for 971 00:49:39,407 --> 00:49:42,167 Speaker 2: a better job. And when they're broken hearted and they're 972 00:49:42,287 --> 00:49:44,687 Speaker 2: thinking they might lose custody of their children if they 973 00:49:44,687 --> 00:49:47,327 Speaker 2: don't cave financially, tell them to stand up for themselves. 974 00:49:47,567 --> 00:49:51,367 Speaker 2: You cannot be free and happy if you're not economically independent. 975 00:49:51,687 --> 00:49:55,127 Speaker 1: You just can't look the naked truth. This adventure, as 976 00:49:55,167 --> 00:49:58,047 Speaker 1: you say, is almost ten years ago. How have your 977 00:49:58,087 --> 00:50:04,047 Speaker 1: fifties been sexually and relationship wise? How's life been since 978 00:50:04,087 --> 00:50:04,967 Speaker 1: the Five Boyfriends? 979 00:50:05,047 --> 00:50:08,567 Speaker 2: Leslie? So? I could write quite a sequel, I bet 980 00:50:08,567 --> 00:50:11,567 Speaker 2: you can. It took me a long time to recover 981 00:50:11,607 --> 00:50:14,847 Speaker 2: from Jake, but once I did, I started dating again, 982 00:50:15,087 --> 00:50:17,567 Speaker 2: and I did the same thing again, although I was 983 00:50:17,687 --> 00:50:20,167 Speaker 2: looking for a partner for a while, I dated older men, 984 00:50:20,207 --> 00:50:22,727 Speaker 2: which I had never done. I had sex with older men. 985 00:50:22,887 --> 00:50:25,327 Speaker 1: How is that? How are older men? We're not hearing 986 00:50:25,367 --> 00:50:27,487 Speaker 1: a lot of women saying I want to date an 987 00:50:27,527 --> 00:50:29,527 Speaker 1: older man once they're in their fifties. Tell me how 988 00:50:29,567 --> 00:50:29,847 Speaker 1: that was? 989 00:50:30,207 --> 00:50:32,767 Speaker 2: Okay, I have to tell you the terrible truth is 990 00:50:32,807 --> 00:50:35,007 Speaker 2: that I hated it. I hated it. I pushed myself 991 00:50:35,047 --> 00:50:36,927 Speaker 2: to do it because I just thought, well, maybe I'm 992 00:50:36,967 --> 00:50:40,727 Speaker 2: missing something. I found that older men were so sexist, 993 00:50:41,327 --> 00:50:44,847 Speaker 2: and they just expected even more than my own ex husband. 994 00:50:45,087 --> 00:50:48,327 Speaker 2: They expected me to be very traditional, and they weren't 995 00:50:48,367 --> 00:50:50,927 Speaker 2: any good in bed. They didn't think they had to be, 996 00:50:51,007 --> 00:50:53,607 Speaker 2: and they this is so terrible to say, they were 997 00:50:53,647 --> 00:50:56,687 Speaker 2: really bony. And I didn't like it. I mean, I'm sorry. 998 00:50:57,047 --> 00:50:58,847 Speaker 2: I had been with twenty nine year olds. I couldn't 999 00:50:58,887 --> 00:51:00,567 Speaker 2: be with sixty nine year olds. I just couldn't. 1000 00:51:00,687 --> 00:51:00,927 Speaker 1: I cant. 1001 00:51:01,127 --> 00:51:03,527 Speaker 2: So that was a short experiment. I started dating another 1002 00:51:03,527 --> 00:51:06,047 Speaker 2: old friend who I dated off and on for three years. 1003 00:51:06,047 --> 00:51:08,127 Speaker 2: I thought I was going to marry him. He was 1004 00:51:08,327 --> 00:51:11,487 Speaker 2: so wonderful and so lovely. He knew my kids, I 1005 00:51:11,567 --> 00:51:13,607 Speaker 2: knew his kids. I knew both of his ex wives. 1006 00:51:13,647 --> 00:51:15,207 Speaker 2: I like them. There was a lot that was right, 1007 00:51:15,527 --> 00:51:19,207 Speaker 2: but it wasn't quite right enough. And it turned out 1008 00:51:19,247 --> 00:51:22,887 Speaker 2: that he was very possessive and insecure, and it just 1009 00:51:22,887 --> 00:51:24,567 Speaker 2: took a long time to get at the heart of that. 1010 00:51:24,607 --> 00:51:26,447 Speaker 2: And once I figured that out, I wasn't interested in 1011 00:51:26,527 --> 00:51:29,647 Speaker 2: him anymore. So now I'm back to kind of the 1012 00:51:29,767 --> 00:51:32,207 Speaker 2: naked truth thing, where I am dating a couple of 1013 00:51:32,207 --> 00:51:35,767 Speaker 2: different guys, I am having the best sex of my life. 1014 00:51:35,807 --> 00:51:37,767 Speaker 2: I'm so happy that I can say this to you, Holly. 1015 00:51:37,967 --> 00:51:40,167 Speaker 2: I found somebody who's even better in bed than Jake, 1016 00:51:40,327 --> 00:51:42,287 Speaker 2: and I'm so happy about that. I thought that was 1017 00:51:42,287 --> 00:51:45,527 Speaker 2: never going to happen. And maybe I can see the 1018 00:51:45,527 --> 00:51:48,687 Speaker 2: finish line here. Because there are fewer and fewer men. 1019 00:51:49,047 --> 00:51:51,527 Speaker 2: The numbers start to work against us as we get older, 1020 00:51:52,087 --> 00:51:56,367 Speaker 2: and there's a feeding frenzy anytime an attractive man comes 1021 00:51:56,407 --> 00:51:58,247 Speaker 2: on the market, and I just hate it. I don't 1022 00:51:58,247 --> 00:51:59,527 Speaker 2: want to have to work that hard. I don't have 1023 00:51:59,567 --> 00:52:01,407 Speaker 2: to compete with other women because I love other women 1024 00:52:01,447 --> 00:52:03,767 Speaker 2: and I don't want to compete with them. So I 1025 00:52:03,847 --> 00:52:06,687 Speaker 2: really am at a point where I've accepted that I'm 1026 00:52:06,727 --> 00:52:08,527 Speaker 2: not going to get married again. It would be very 1027 00:52:08,567 --> 00:52:10,407 Speaker 2: unusual if I to get married again, and then I 1028 00:52:10,527 --> 00:52:14,607 Speaker 2: might not ever ever have a full time, monogamous, committed 1029 00:52:14,647 --> 00:52:18,287 Speaker 2: relationship for two reasons. There aren't as many men out 1030 00:52:18,327 --> 00:52:23,007 Speaker 2: there anymore, and also I don't want it. I treasure 1031 00:52:23,007 --> 00:52:25,407 Speaker 2: my alone time I love. I have three adult children, 1032 00:52:25,487 --> 00:52:27,407 Speaker 2: and I want to be able to go visit them 1033 00:52:27,407 --> 00:52:29,167 Speaker 2: at the drop of a hat. I don't want any 1034 00:52:29,207 --> 00:52:32,127 Speaker 2: man on earth saying that I have to cook him 1035 00:52:32,167 --> 00:52:33,887 Speaker 2: dinner every night, and that I can't go visit my 1036 00:52:33,967 --> 00:52:36,207 Speaker 2: kids when I want to. I can't ride horses when 1037 00:52:36,247 --> 00:52:37,967 Speaker 2: I want to, I can't do all the crazy things. 1038 00:52:38,567 --> 00:52:40,567 Speaker 2: I travel a lot. I spent a month and a 1039 00:52:40,567 --> 00:52:42,767 Speaker 2: half in Rome this year. Last year, I went to 1040 00:52:42,927 --> 00:52:46,567 Speaker 2: Madrid three times. I don't want anybody controlling me. And 1041 00:52:46,567 --> 00:52:50,247 Speaker 2: I've invested in myself in every way, in my self esteem, 1042 00:52:50,367 --> 00:52:53,367 Speaker 2: in my economic independence, and in my lifestyle, so I 1043 00:52:53,407 --> 00:52:56,847 Speaker 2: can do whatever the hell I want, and I'm doing it. 1044 00:52:57,367 --> 00:53:00,127 Speaker 2: And I just encourage everybody. If this is what you want, 1045 00:53:00,167 --> 00:53:02,007 Speaker 2: if you want to be with a lovely man and 1046 00:53:02,047 --> 00:53:03,567 Speaker 2: take care of him for the rest of your life, 1047 00:53:04,047 --> 00:53:06,287 Speaker 2: please go do that if that's what makes you happy. 1048 00:53:06,607 --> 00:53:08,847 Speaker 2: It never made me happy, and it is never going 1049 00:53:08,887 --> 00:53:12,127 Speaker 2: to make me happy, and so I just can't fantasize 1050 00:53:12,127 --> 00:53:13,847 Speaker 2: that that's going to happen, because it's really probably not. 1051 00:53:14,367 --> 00:53:17,527 Speaker 1: Oh, I love this again. So many tropes of like 1052 00:53:17,607 --> 00:53:19,647 Speaker 1: this is what happiness looks like, You've got to find 1053 00:53:19,687 --> 00:53:24,567 Speaker 1: the personal happiness looks all kinds of ways, And my god, 1054 00:53:24,767 --> 00:53:28,487 Speaker 1: your life are fifty nine sounds bloody brilliant. I just 1055 00:53:28,607 --> 00:53:31,807 Speaker 1: need to go back to best sex of my life. 1056 00:53:31,927 --> 00:53:35,167 Speaker 1: Because obviously we've talked about this a bit in this 1057 00:53:35,207 --> 00:53:38,167 Speaker 1: whole conversation, but a lot of women who've talked themselves 1058 00:53:38,207 --> 00:53:40,127 Speaker 1: out of the fact that their sexual creatures once they 1059 00:53:40,207 --> 00:53:45,127 Speaker 1: hit maybe menopause or perimenopause, they sort of think, oh, well, 1060 00:53:45,207 --> 00:53:48,287 Speaker 1: that part of my life is over. Please just tell 1061 00:53:48,287 --> 00:53:50,527 Speaker 1: me a little bit more about how you can be 1062 00:53:50,567 --> 00:53:53,647 Speaker 1: having the best sex of your life our age, because 1063 00:53:53,687 --> 00:53:54,207 Speaker 1: I love that. 1064 00:53:54,487 --> 00:53:57,447 Speaker 2: Okay, So I think it is true that some women, 1065 00:53:57,847 --> 00:54:02,687 Speaker 2: after menopause the vagina finns, sex becomes painful, they don't 1066 00:54:02,687 --> 00:54:04,847 Speaker 2: want to have sex. I will tell you, Holly, every 1067 00:54:04,887 --> 00:54:06,527 Speaker 2: woman I talk to who doesn't want to have sex, 1068 00:54:06,967 --> 00:54:08,487 Speaker 2: what she really is saying is she doesn't want to 1069 00:54:08,487 --> 00:54:10,687 Speaker 2: have sex with her husband anymore, and she's happy for 1070 00:54:10,687 --> 00:54:12,927 Speaker 2: an excuse to not have sex with him. There are 1071 00:54:13,007 --> 00:54:15,607 Speaker 2: things that you can do even if sex becomes painful. 1072 00:54:15,607 --> 00:54:18,167 Speaker 2: There are so many things. There are a million creams 1073 00:54:18,287 --> 00:54:22,287 Speaker 2: and suppositories and supplements you can take, and you just 1074 00:54:22,287 --> 00:54:24,327 Speaker 2: have to try until you find the one that's right. 1075 00:54:24,407 --> 00:54:28,247 Speaker 2: And I've had a lot of really hilariously embarrassingly frank 1076 00:54:28,527 --> 00:54:31,567 Speaker 2: conversations with my doctors and gynecologists like I've had to 1077 00:54:31,767 --> 00:54:34,887 Speaker 2: put my fingers inside myself and say this is where 1078 00:54:34,967 --> 00:54:37,847 Speaker 2: it hurts, and then they say, oh, okay, well this 1079 00:54:37,967 --> 00:54:39,927 Speaker 2: is what you need. This is what you need and 1080 00:54:39,967 --> 00:54:42,687 Speaker 2: you can have. I mean, both Jake and the current 1081 00:54:42,727 --> 00:54:45,447 Speaker 2: best sex ever guy, those are people who I started 1082 00:54:45,487 --> 00:54:49,207 Speaker 2: having sex with after I turned fifty. And the other great, great, 1083 00:54:49,247 --> 00:54:52,487 Speaker 2: great lover was that guy who introduced me to lubricationless 1084 00:54:52,647 --> 00:54:57,407 Speaker 2: anal sex. Besides that, he was off the charts, adventurous, 1085 00:54:57,447 --> 00:55:00,767 Speaker 2: comfortable in his body, curious about my body. I've had 1086 00:55:00,967 --> 00:55:05,407 Speaker 2: so much incredible sex, and I'm not like a nymphimaniac. 1087 00:55:05,447 --> 00:55:07,047 Speaker 2: I mean, as I said earlier, I've never had a 1088 00:55:07,047 --> 00:55:10,367 Speaker 2: one night stand. I like pretty vanilla less sex, but 1089 00:55:10,407 --> 00:55:12,207 Speaker 2: I like it to be really good and I like 1090 00:55:12,247 --> 00:55:15,767 Speaker 2: to have a lot of it, and I'm really really lucky. 1091 00:55:15,847 --> 00:55:18,607 Speaker 2: And I think the key to having great sex is 1092 00:55:19,247 --> 00:55:22,047 Speaker 2: to like your body, to masturbate, to figure out what 1093 00:55:22,087 --> 00:55:25,127 Speaker 2: you like, and then to be just really open with 1094 00:55:25,167 --> 00:55:28,367 Speaker 2: your partners about what you like. And that's what After 1095 00:55:28,527 --> 00:55:31,247 Speaker 2: my second marriage ended, I vowed that the first time 1096 00:55:31,287 --> 00:55:33,047 Speaker 2: I had sex with anybody else, I was going to 1097 00:55:33,047 --> 00:55:35,687 Speaker 2: tell them the top three things I like, they're very straightforward, 1098 00:55:35,727 --> 00:55:38,527 Speaker 2: they're easy to do, and I found that men really 1099 00:55:38,607 --> 00:55:41,127 Speaker 2: liked it. They want to please, they want to know 1100 00:55:41,207 --> 00:55:44,247 Speaker 2: exactly what to do, and it's not like I gave 1101 00:55:44,287 --> 00:55:47,207 Speaker 2: a tutorial, but I just gave them some tips. Everybody's 1102 00:55:47,207 --> 00:55:49,287 Speaker 2: body is different. This is what I like, and I'd 1103 00:55:49,287 --> 00:55:51,487 Speaker 2: like to know what you like, and it worked. One 1104 00:55:51,487 --> 00:55:53,647 Speaker 2: of the blessings of the Naked Truth, which is a 1105 00:55:53,647 --> 00:55:56,287 Speaker 2: lot of sex in it, is that I now talk 1106 00:55:56,367 --> 00:55:58,487 Speaker 2: to all of my girlfriends and all of my male 1107 00:55:58,527 --> 00:56:01,327 Speaker 2: friends about sex in a very candid way that I 1108 00:56:01,367 --> 00:56:04,207 Speaker 2: never did before. And it's a little bit hard to 1109 00:56:04,247 --> 00:56:06,327 Speaker 2: do depending on the culture that you were brought up in, 1110 00:56:06,687 --> 00:56:09,527 Speaker 2: but you can learn a lot by talking to women 1111 00:56:09,527 --> 00:56:11,967 Speaker 2: about what they like and what they do. And my 1112 00:56:11,967 --> 00:56:15,047 Speaker 2: male friends, I mean, I've had some great, great sexual 1113 00:56:15,087 --> 00:56:18,167 Speaker 2: conversations with my male friends. There's a lot to talk about. 1114 00:56:18,327 --> 00:56:20,807 Speaker 1: There is, and it's that thing of not being ashamed 1115 00:56:20,847 --> 00:56:23,047 Speaker 1: or afraid to talk about it. I know, you might 1116 00:56:23,087 --> 00:56:25,367 Speaker 1: go to the doctor and say, oh, my libido's you know, 1117 00:56:25,527 --> 00:56:27,407 Speaker 1: lessening in menopause, and they'll be like, is that a 1118 00:56:27,447 --> 00:56:30,207 Speaker 1: problem for you, and you're like, am I allowed to 1119 00:56:30,247 --> 00:56:35,967 Speaker 1: say yes? Yes, that's a problem for me. Look, this 1120 00:56:36,007 --> 00:56:38,487 Speaker 1: has been the most amazing conversation, Leslie. I can't thank 1121 00:56:38,567 --> 00:56:41,847 Speaker 1: you enough for sharing your story. Your book The Naked 1122 00:56:41,847 --> 00:56:44,527 Speaker 1: Truth is brilliant as your other books. I've seen you 1123 00:56:44,527 --> 00:56:48,367 Speaker 1: talk about crazy love, completely different topics so important. We'll 1124 00:56:48,367 --> 00:56:50,087 Speaker 1: put a link to all of that in our show 1125 00:56:50,127 --> 00:56:52,967 Speaker 1: notes today. But Leslie, my gosh, thank you for being 1126 00:56:53,007 --> 00:56:55,167 Speaker 1: you and telling it like it is. 1127 00:56:55,327 --> 00:56:57,727 Speaker 2: Well. It's a pleasure, and I delight. I love being 1128 00:56:57,727 --> 00:56:59,647 Speaker 2: a woman. I feel so lucky to be a woman. 1129 00:56:59,927 --> 00:57:02,407 Speaker 2: I love being body positive and sex positive. And it's 1130 00:57:02,487 --> 00:57:04,607 Speaker 2: been a long journey to get here, Holly, I wasn't 1131 00:57:04,607 --> 00:57:06,727 Speaker 2: born this way. I had to fight to feel good 1132 00:57:06,727 --> 00:57:09,607 Speaker 2: about myself and to feel good about my flabby, saggy 1133 00:57:09,647 --> 00:57:12,607 Speaker 2: body and to enjoy life. And I think every woman 1134 00:57:12,687 --> 00:57:15,647 Speaker 2: deserves that, to be cheerish, to feel like you're a 1135 00:57:15,687 --> 00:57:17,767 Speaker 2: sexual being and you can enjoy sex, and that you're 1136 00:57:17,807 --> 00:57:20,407 Speaker 2: really valued by every single person in your life who 1137 00:57:20,407 --> 00:57:22,287 Speaker 2: loves you. It's the way that it should be. And 1138 00:57:22,847 --> 00:57:24,967 Speaker 2: too often we get messages that we should settle for 1139 00:57:25,087 --> 00:57:27,527 Speaker 2: much less, and we just shouldn't. We shouldn't. Life is 1140 00:57:27,567 --> 00:57:29,647 Speaker 2: too wonderful to settle for less. 1141 00:57:32,247 --> 00:57:36,647 Speaker 1: A men. Well, look, my life right now couldn't be 1142 00:57:36,687 --> 00:57:40,327 Speaker 1: more different from Leslie's. And yet I loved that conversation. 1143 00:57:40,887 --> 00:57:43,407 Speaker 1: Her book, The Naked Truth and her others are available 1144 00:57:43,447 --> 00:57:44,967 Speaker 1: at the link in the show notes. And I have 1145 00:57:45,007 --> 00:57:47,247 Speaker 1: to tell you The Naked Truth is really fun. It 1146 00:57:47,327 --> 00:57:50,407 Speaker 1: is written in a really accessible, fun style, and you 1147 00:57:50,487 --> 00:57:52,847 Speaker 1: might kind of love it. I know what she talks 1148 00:57:52,887 --> 00:57:56,487 Speaker 1: about is bold. It's bold that Leslie is so upfront 1149 00:57:56,527 --> 00:57:59,287 Speaker 1: about how she feels about men, both good and bad. 1150 00:57:59,727 --> 00:58:02,487 Speaker 1: I think the very specific descriptions she gives of the 1151 00:58:02,527 --> 00:58:05,727 Speaker 1: way desire dies in a long term relationship are very, 1152 00:58:06,007 --> 00:58:09,367 Speaker 1: very relatable for a lot of women in relationships with men, 1153 00:58:09,607 --> 00:58:12,607 Speaker 1: and I'd love to know if the dynamic is comparable 1154 00:58:12,647 --> 00:58:15,487 Speaker 1: in non straight relationships. I promise we'll get to that 1155 00:58:15,527 --> 00:58:18,887 Speaker 1: conversation too. I also loved what she said about money 1156 00:58:18,927 --> 00:58:21,887 Speaker 1: and financial independence, and we're also going to be talking 1157 00:58:21,927 --> 00:58:25,607 Speaker 1: about that very soon. I know it's bold that Leslie 1158 00:58:25,687 --> 00:58:28,047 Speaker 1: says the best version of midlife might just be a 1159 00:58:28,087 --> 00:58:32,447 Speaker 1: predominantly solo one, which certainly wouldn't be true or possible 1160 00:58:32,487 --> 00:58:35,607 Speaker 1: for many. And how to thrive in long term relationships 1161 00:58:35,687 --> 00:58:39,007 Speaker 1: is another discussion we're cooking up for you, but for me, 1162 00:58:39,567 --> 00:58:43,207 Speaker 1: her unapologetic insistence on what she deserves, on what all 1163 00:58:43,287 --> 00:58:47,167 Speaker 1: women deserve, was just energizing as hell. As I said 1164 00:58:47,167 --> 00:58:49,687 Speaker 1: at the beginning, sex can be attached to so much 1165 00:58:49,687 --> 00:58:53,527 Speaker 1: sadness and shame. There's something so uplifting about and refreshing 1166 00:58:53,567 --> 00:58:56,847 Speaker 1: about hearing a midlife woman just being so honest about 1167 00:58:56,887 --> 00:59:01,567 Speaker 1: what she wants and what she needs. Over the next 1168 00:59:01,567 --> 00:59:04,727 Speaker 1: seven episodes, you're going to be hearing more honest conversations, 1169 00:59:05,047 --> 00:59:07,967 Speaker 1: some with names you'll definitely know, some that won't be familiar, 1170 00:59:08,047 --> 00:59:11,807 Speaker 1: but their stories will stay. I promise about money, about 1171 00:59:11,807 --> 00:59:15,687 Speaker 1: the Sandwich generation, about rage, invisibility, family, and a lot more, 1172 00:59:15,927 --> 00:59:19,407 Speaker 1: and I can't wait for you to hear them. Follow us, 1173 00:59:19,767 --> 00:59:24,127 Speaker 1: review us, raid us come back for more. Massive. Thanks 1174 00:59:24,127 --> 00:59:26,687 Speaker 1: to you for supporting mid and to our amazing team, 1175 00:59:26,847 --> 00:59:30,647 Speaker 1: our executive producer Namer Brown and audio producer Tom Lyon. 1176 00:59:30,927 --> 00:59:32,247 Speaker 1: We'll see you next week.