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Speaker 1: It's a Friday afternoon after school in July nineteen seventy nine,

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Speaker 1: and fifteen year olds Tony Kavanagh and Kay Dockerty are

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Speaker 1: getting ready to go out. Tony's mum can hear them

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Speaker 1: from the bedroom. They're giggling and squealing, trying clothes on

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Speaker 1: and doing their hair and makeup, normal teenage girl stuff.

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Speaker 1: Once ready, the girls say they're goodbyes and leave the

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Speaker 1: family home on Martin Street in Marilla, in the New

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Speaker 1: South Wales town of Shell Harbor on foot.

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Speaker 2: Tony's mum thinks they're off to the movies.

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Speaker 3: Kay told her.

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Speaker 1: Parents Tony had asked her to come over and help

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Speaker 1: babysit her younger siblings.

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Speaker 2: Both were lies.

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Speaker 1: Their friends say they were actually off to a disco

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Speaker 1: about forty minutes away in Wongong.

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Speaker 2: No one else had wanted to go.

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Speaker 1: But Tracy saw them waiting for a bus outside the

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Speaker 1: local shopping center as the sun was setting. They were

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Speaker 1: never seen again. There have been several theories about what

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Speaker 1: happened to the girls, all of them horrible, but there

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Speaker 1: is no concrete answer, no closure. Instead, their families have

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Speaker 1: lived for nearly fifty years in a traumatic state of limbo.

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Speaker 1: Their girls are just two of thousands of people in

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Speaker 1: Australia who simply vanished forever. I'm Jemma Bath and you're

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Speaker 1: listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's

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Speaker 1: most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know

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Speaker 1: the most about them.

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Speaker 2: When you think of missing persons, who comes to mind

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Speaker 2: for me?

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Speaker 1: It'll always be the Beaumont Children, an infamous Australian cold

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Speaker 1: case and one of the biggest police investigations in our history.

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Speaker 1: Three little kids who vanished from Glen Elg Beach in

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Speaker 1: Adelaide on January twenty sixth, nineteen sixty six. All these

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Speaker 1: decades later, we still don't have answers. A more recent

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Speaker 1: one that often lingers in my mind is the disappearance

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Speaker 1: of Theo Hayes from Byron Bay in twenty nineteen. The

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Speaker 1: eighteen year old Belgian backpacker was last seen leaving a

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Speaker 1: bar a night out, and his case remains a mystery.

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Speaker 1: Then there's William Tyrell. Most Australians will recognize the smiling

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Speaker 1: three year old in his spider Man's suit who went

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Speaker 1: missing in New South Wales in twenty fourteen. But what

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Speaker 1: if I told you one hundred and forty people are

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Speaker 1: reported missing every day. That fifty six thousand people go

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Speaker 1: missing in Australia every year. Most are found within a week,

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Speaker 1: but there are up to two thousand, seven hundred long

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Speaker 1: term missing people in Australia at any one time.

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Speaker 2: We only know a handful of their names.

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Speaker 1: Because there's simply too many stories to tell. Nicole Morris

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Speaker 1: is the director of the Australian Missing Person's Register and

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Speaker 1: author of two best selling books telling the stories of

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Speaker 1: people who've disappeared. They're called vanished and Missing. She gets

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Speaker 1: asked to help families every week.

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Speaker 2: Can you find my brother? My mother is missing, my

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Speaker 2: best friend hasn't checked in with anyone for weeks. Can

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Speaker 2: you help.

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Speaker 1: She has dedicated her life to humanize the missing, so

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Speaker 1: helping families get their stories out there beyond a poster

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Speaker 1: or a news article, to being a voice for the voiceless.

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Speaker 2: Nicole joins us Now.

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Speaker 1: Nicole, what is it about missing persons? About those types

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Speaker 1: of stories? Why are you so passionate about this area?

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Speaker 3: It's a question I'm asked a lot, and even after

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Speaker 3: twenty one years of doing this, I don't think I

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Speaker 3: have a satisfactory answer. It's you know, I don't want

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Speaker 3: to be a bit cliched and say I think it's

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Speaker 3: my calling. And I've never had a missing person in

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Speaker 3: my own life, so I don't have that lived experience.

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Speaker 3: But I think it was just from a child. I

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Speaker 3: was always had a curious nature and for someone to

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Speaker 3: go missing is such a mystery, and I was always

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Speaker 3: fascinated by that mystery. And then when I became an adult,

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Speaker 3: I was able to maybe do something about it. So

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Speaker 3: I thought to myself, what can I do in a

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Speaker 3: practical sense to assist the world of missing persons and

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Speaker 3: maybe help people? Because I think that we all should

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Speaker 3: go through life thinking what can I do to help

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Speaker 3: the person beside me, because I think that's why we're here.

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Speaker 3: And so I was able to see a need in

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Speaker 3: getting the word out about missing persons through the internet.

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Speaker 3: And twenty one years ago, the internet was in its

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Speaker 3: infancy and was not in everybody's home, but was just

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Speaker 3: starting to be. So I thought, well, that's something I

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Speaker 3: can do. I'll taught myself how to make a website

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Speaker 3: and from there just started to reach out to say

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Speaker 3: what can I do to help get the word out

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Speaker 3: about missing persons? And it was just it was just

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Speaker 3: something I found that I was good at, I suppose,

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Speaker 3: and twenty one years later still going.

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Speaker 1: So it was back in two thousand and five that

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Speaker 1: you created kind of a more formal register. So before

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Speaker 1: the Register, a National Person's Register, what did people do

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Speaker 1: to find missing people? They would just kind of searching

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Speaker 1: on the internet and see what they could find or.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and there was very little available on the internet

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Speaker 3: and people were not able to search on the internet,

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Speaker 3: so it was newspapers. It was books and newspapers, which

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Speaker 3: is amazing. I've created the register by scanning photos from

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Speaker 3: books from Australian true crime books that might have mentioned

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Speaker 3: a missing person, and I would gather the information from

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Speaker 3: a book and put it onto the website. So it

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Speaker 3: was that basic back then.

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Speaker 1: So if someone had a missing person and they went

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Speaker 1: on to your register, what would they find when they

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Speaker 1: typed in the name.

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Speaker 3: Well, I wanted to be more than just a photo

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Speaker 3: and a description, because people are so much more than that.

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Speaker 3: So I wanted with the register to be able to

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Speaker 3: create a whole background, and so I wanted to get

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Speaker 3: every news article I could find about missing persons, so

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Speaker 3: that they had lots of points of view, they learned

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Speaker 3: more about the missing person. Were a mom or a dad,

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Speaker 3: or a brother or a sister, They on their way

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Speaker 3: to work? Were they Did they have a mental illness

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Speaker 3: that could have contributed it to it? Did they have dementia?

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Speaker 3: So I wanted to learn more about the missing person

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Speaker 3: instead of you know, here's a photo and they're five

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Speaker 3: foot seven, and you know that tells people nothing and

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Speaker 3: it doesn't help find them. So I wanted as many

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Speaker 3: photos as I could find on the website and as

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Speaker 3: much information as I could.

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Speaker 1: Through doing this for so many years, well decades, you've

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Speaker 1: come to know a lot of these families quite closely,

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Speaker 1: haven't you.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely yep, very much. Some of them are like family

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Speaker 3: to me. There's the sister in law of a missing

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Speaker 3: person is my best friend and has been my best

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Speaker 3: friend for fifteen years or something. So it's I feel

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Speaker 3: very close to them all, and you get to know

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Speaker 3: them really well over the years, and they know that

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Speaker 3: if they're having a bad day, they can reach out

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Speaker 3: and hopefully you'll make their day a little bit better,

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Speaker 3: and just by remembering their missing person, you make their

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Speaker 3: day a little bit better.

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Speaker 1: Why do people go missing? Because it's not just because

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Speaker 1: they're the victim.

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Speaker 3: Of a crime. People I think have an idea, maybe

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Speaker 3: because there's lots of Netflix documentaries out there, but I

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Speaker 3: think people have this idea that homicide is the primary

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Speaker 3: reason for people to go missing, and that's absolutely not true.

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Speaker 3: Fifty six thousand people a year go missing in Australia

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Speaker 3: and they're not all murdered. No, yet, more than half

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Speaker 3: of those are runaway teenagers. And then we have a

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Speaker 3: mental health crisis in this country that we're not addressing

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Speaker 3: and not managing very well at all. So it's really

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Speaker 3: hard for people to access help when they are having

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Speaker 3: a bit of a mental health crisis. And the alternative

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Speaker 3: is that they're going to just say I have to

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Speaker 3: get away, I have to get out of this situation

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Speaker 3: that I'm in, and they will go missing. So they'll

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Speaker 3: choose to go missing. Horrifically, a lot of those people

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Speaker 3: might take their own lives, but some people, we just

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Speaker 3: need to get away for a little bit and then

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Speaker 3: they're found safe and then hopefully we'll get some help.

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Speaker 3: You've also got We live in a vast wilderness of

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Speaker 3: a country with lots of cliffs and oceans and bushland,

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Speaker 3: and people go missing in that all the time. And

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Speaker 3: then you have people with dementia who will wander and

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Speaker 3: get lost.

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Speaker 1: What is it that strikes you about the experience of

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Speaker 1: those with missing loved ones because it's a particular kind

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Speaker 1: of torture not having closure. Yes, do you find people

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Speaker 1: respond in the same way when they have a loved

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Speaker 1: one that goes missing.

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Speaker 3: Not at all? Not at all. In the missing person's world,

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Speaker 3: we call it an ambiguous loss because you've lost something,

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Speaker 3: but you don't know why, who wear how So you've

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Speaker 3: got all of those questions and the brain works in

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Speaker 3: a way to try to fill in the blanks. So

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Speaker 3: the brain will kind of go, Okay, what could have happened?

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Speaker 3: And you imagine so many different scenarios. On one end

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Speaker 3: of the scale, you have people like the Morcambs, who

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Speaker 3: even you know, so many years after their son was found,

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Speaker 3: they're still working to help find missing persons and in

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Speaker 3: that missing person child safety space. And then you have

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Speaker 3: people who can't. They don't have the strength, I guess,

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Speaker 3: and that's completely understandable. One thing I noticed when I

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Speaker 3: was writing the books is that I would talk to

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Speaker 3: the brothers and sisters of missing persons because they were

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Speaker 3: stronger and more able to talk to me about it.

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Speaker 3: But the parents of missing persons were just so broken

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Speaker 3: that they struggled to put into words. I did speak

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Speaker 3: to some of the parents, and some of them were amazing,

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Speaker 3: some of them were just they went to Pieces. And

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Speaker 3: just this last weekend, I was helping a family locate

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Speaker 3: a man who was missing overseas, and I was helping

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Speaker 3: his sister who was really gung ho, lets you know,

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Speaker 3: let's find let's find him. And also his friend who

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Speaker 3: on the other end of the scale went to Pieces

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Speaker 3: and said I can't do this and actually got on

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Speaker 3: a plane and came home and said, I can't cope

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Speaker 3: with this. I can't cope with this. So everybody's different.

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Speaker 3: You get people who have high levels of anxiety and

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Speaker 3: they just don't have the capacity to do that. And

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Speaker 3: that's no judgment on anybody, because to have a missing

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Speaker 3: person is horrific, and there's no guidebook, there's no manual,

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Speaker 3: there's no you know, how do I do this? People

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Speaker 3: don't know what to do in that situation.

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Speaker 1: Two common themes that you mentioned that do pop up

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Speaker 1: a fair bit vivid dreams, which you can so imagine

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Speaker 1: why that would happen, and then survivors guilt.

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Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely absolutely. People. Someone said this to me yesterday

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Speaker 3: as well. They said, oh, I had a friend who

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Speaker 3: went missing I think twenty one years ago. And she said,

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Speaker 3: and why didn't I see the signs? As she had

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Speaker 3: taken her own life? Why didn't I see the signs?

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Speaker 3: Why didn't I look? But you don't. You don't think

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Speaker 3: to yourself if someone is feeling a little bit quiet,

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Speaker 3: perhaps you don't think to yourself, oh, they're in danger

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Speaker 3: of going missing, or they're going to take their own life.

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Speaker 3: You don't think that. You just you do what you

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Speaker 3: can as well. But people feel overwhelmingly guilty that they

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Speaker 3: didn't spot the signs that maybe they didn't check in

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Speaker 3: with that person, maybe they should have. They thought, oh,

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Speaker 3: I should have given her a lift home from the

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Speaker 3: party that night instead of just thinking that she would

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Speaker 3: be okay. There's amazing guilt. But I kind of have

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Speaker 3: a bit of a The way that I look at

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Speaker 3: it is I think that if something is going to happen,

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Speaker 3: it's going to happen, and there's not always anything that

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Speaker 3: anybody can do about it. And the dreams are interesting

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Speaker 3: as well, because I think I don't know any of

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Speaker 3: the people that I've never met, any of the people

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Speaker 3: that I deal with, even though I feel like I've

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Speaker 3: got to know them a lot after listing them and

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Speaker 3: making appeals for them for so many years, and talking

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Speaker 3: to their families and writing about them, I feel like

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Speaker 3: I know them really well. But it's the families who

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Speaker 3: know them the best. And again it comes back to

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Speaker 3: the brain trying to figure out what's happened. So the

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Speaker 3: brain is, okay, could they have wandered off? Could someone

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Speaker 3: have taken them? Did they possibly take their own life?

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Speaker 3: What happens? And that's also a reason why someone who

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Speaker 3: might never go to a psychic in their entire life

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Speaker 3: would choose to go to a psychic, because they're looking

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Speaker 3: for that answer that is just not there.

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Speaker 1: And do you find that a lot of families do

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Speaker 1: end up doing that, don't they? They turned to psychics.

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Speaker 3: Almost one hundred percent, Even people who are skeptical of psychics,

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Speaker 3: who've never been to a psychic, who don't like psychics.

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Speaker 3: Even there's some deeply religious families who don't believe in

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Speaker 3: psychics at all. But if someone comes to you and says, oh,

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Speaker 3: you know, I just have a very strong feeling that

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Speaker 3: she might have gone in a green car. That will

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Speaker 3: stick in their mind and not go, oh okay, maybe

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Speaker 3: I should just mention to the police that there was

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Speaker 3: a green car. So it's they will clutch at anything

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Speaker 3: when you have nothing, any tiny thread of a lifeline,

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Speaker 3: people will clutch at.

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Speaker 1: This might be too hard a question to answer, but

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Speaker 1: is there a family that you have helped that really

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Speaker 1: sticks in your mind.

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Speaker 3: Well over such a long time. I think I mentioned

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Speaker 3: before that the sister in law of a missing person

254
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Speaker 3: had become my best friend. And you know, I would

255
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Speaker 3: never prioritize any missing person over another, but I think

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Speaker 3: that family is so special to me because I'm close

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Speaker 3: with them. I've watched her kids grow up and looking

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Speaker 3: exactly like they're missing Auntie, and and so I feel

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Speaker 3: an obligation and a need to find answers for them

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Speaker 3: because I know what a special and so that's the

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Speaker 3: family of Tania Farmington, and a special need to find

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Speaker 3: answers for them. And so I'm going to put Tanya

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Speaker 3: in my third book. I haven't interviewed them yet, and

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Speaker 3: it'll be weird to interview someone I know so well,

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Speaker 3: but I really wanted to and she actually said no

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Speaker 3: to the first few books. To the first two books,

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Speaker 3: she said, no, I can't do it yet. I can't

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Speaker 3: do it yet. She said, I'll do it for the

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Speaker 3: third's so it's special.

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Speaker 2: Can you just tell us briefly about when Tanya went missing?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, nineteen seventy nine. Unbelievable. So in nineteen seventy nine

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Speaker 3: was a particularly bad year for missing persons. I don't

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Speaker 3: know why. You know, Malatt was active at that time,

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Speaker 3: so he certainly didn't kill every missing person in Australia

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Speaker 3: as some would have you believed. But it's possible because

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Speaker 3: we think that she was living in closeness in Sydney.

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Speaker 3: She snuck out of the house, told him I'm she

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Speaker 3: was going to bed, but instead stuck out of the

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Speaker 3: house to go to a disco. We think probably at Manly.

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Speaker 3: She had done that before. She was a little bit

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Speaker 3: of a rebel and if she couldn't find a bus,

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Speaker 3: or she didn't have money for a bus, she absolutely

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Speaker 3: may have hit hyped through those through those northern suburbs

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Speaker 3: of Sydney to get to a disco at Manly, and

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Speaker 3: she may have been picked up by the wrong person

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Speaker 3: and it was a terrible time. There was a lot

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Speaker 3: of a lot of awful things happening to young girls

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Speaker 3: on the northern beaches of Sydney at that time. Yeah awful.

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Speaker 1: Can you take us through the process of reporting someone

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Speaker 1: missing in Australia?

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Speaker 2: What does it look like?

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Speaker 3: Sometimes people will come to me first, and I will

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Speaker 3: say I can't do anything to help you unless you've

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Speaker 3: been to the police. Because when I make an appeal,

295
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Speaker 3: I will put the police number on there. Some families,

296
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Speaker 3: oh here's my mobile number, put it on the appeal.

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Speaker 3: I will never ever do that because you get all

298
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Speaker 3: kinds of crazy people calling you, telling you ridiculous things,

299
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Speaker 3: trying to take advantage of a panicking family. So the

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Speaker 3: very number one thing is to go to the police

301
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Speaker 3: and say I have this missing person. They will react

302
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Speaker 3: in a number of ways depending on what sort of

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Speaker 3: missing person it is. So if the person has dementia,

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Speaker 3: if it's a young child, they will act extremely quickly.

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Speaker 3: If it's somebody who is lost in a particularly dangerous area,

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Speaker 3: they will act very quickly. If it's a different kind

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Speaker 3: of missing person. Sometimes the urgency isn't there, and I

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Speaker 3: will always urge people if you have serious concerns like

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Speaker 3: you know that your husband is due home from work

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Speaker 3: every night at this time and he doesn't arrive, and

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Speaker 3: the police will probably say, oh, he's probably stopped off

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Speaker 3: for a drink with the maid. He's probably you know,

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Speaker 3: just taken some time outs, probably just gone to he's done.

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Speaker 3: Say no, this is out of character. So you need

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Speaker 3: to sometimes insist that they'll take a report. Give the

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Speaker 3: police as much information as possible, so employment details, details

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Speaker 3: of friends, details of their car. I think a car

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Speaker 3: is sometimes easier to spot than a missing person, so

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Speaker 3: details and registration and photo of a car if possible,

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Speaker 3: is really important. And I guess just the information about

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Speaker 3: where they were supposed to be and photographs, all of

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Speaker 3: that kind of information. Give all of that to the police,

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Speaker 3: and they can check things that other people can't check,

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Speaker 3: like bank activity, phone activity. They won't put all of

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Speaker 3: that into place immediately for every missing person. They'll sort

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Speaker 3: of do the basic checks first, and then either they'll

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Speaker 3: find them really easily, or they'll come back to you

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Speaker 3: and say, okay, we haven't been able to locate them.

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Speaker 3: Maybe we'll make a public appeal now. And so that's

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Speaker 3: when police will issue a media release and then they'll

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Speaker 3: contact me and then I can get the word out

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Speaker 3: to a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: So there's quite a few steps before, like a land

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Speaker 1: search for instance.

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Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, and you have to for a landstch you

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00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,879
Speaker 3: have to know that the person was last seen in

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Speaker 3: that exact location. So sometimes people will say, oh, why

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00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,800
Speaker 3: haven't they called out the sees, It's because they don't

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Speaker 3: know exactly where to direct them to search. If you've

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Speaker 3: got someone missing in a massive national park, you sort

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Speaker 3: of have to have a bit of a location, like

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Speaker 3: at least a trail or somewhere you know, a car

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Speaker 3: and a car park for a starting point, because you

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Speaker 3: can't just send the sees out into the wild to

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Speaker 3: search a based area. It's really difficult. There's a woman missing.

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Speaker 3: She went missing from a bus stop in Logan a

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Speaker 3: few weeks ago and people are saying, why haven't they

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Speaker 3: sent the s s out? And I said, because maybe

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Speaker 3: she got on a bus. So where did they start?

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Speaker 3: Where do you start looking?

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Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me Jemma Bath.

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Nicole Morris, director of the Australian Missing

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Speaker 1: Person's Register, about the Ossies Still Missing in twenty twenty six,

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Speaker 1: up next, Nicole shares the stories of Kay and Tony,

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Speaker 1: two young girls last seen at a bus stop in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine, around the time Ivan the latt was active.

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Speaker 2: I want to touch on a case in your books now.

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Speaker 1: I kind of talked the listeners through this story a

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Speaker 1: little bit at the start of this podcast, the story

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Speaker 1: of Kay and Tony, the fifteen year olds who went missing.

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Speaker 2: Yes, how did the police treat their.

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Speaker 1: Disappearance and what happened, because that was quite a few

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Speaker 1: decades ago now, But how was their case treated?

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Speaker 3: It was very much cheated as if there were runaways,

365
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Speaker 3: despite their family saying no, this is completely out of character,

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Speaker 3: both fifteen years old. But you know, I guess when

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Speaker 3: people think of a runaway teenager, they think of someone

368
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:07,400
Speaker 3: as rebellious and wild and sneaking off behind the bus

369
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,040
Speaker 3: shed to smoke, and these were not these girls. Kay

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Speaker 3: had actually never been out after dark before. She had

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Speaker 3: to beg her mother to let her go over to

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Speaker 3: Tony's house. She didn't tell her mother the truth about

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Speaker 3: where she was going because her mother would have never

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Speaker 3: let her. It was that kind of family, very very protected.

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Speaker 3: She was a very protected, very serious, intelligent girl. And Tony.

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Speaker 3: There have been a few people over the years who

377
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,560
Speaker 3: kind of said Tony was the instigator of this and

378
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Speaker 3: she was the wild child. She really wasn't. I interviewed

379
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Speaker 3: her family and got to know her, and she was

380
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Speaker 3: a really sweet girl. She did try hitchhiking with her

381
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 3: older sister once and cried through the whole experience, so

382
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,640
Speaker 3: she was not She was not a worldly girl who

383
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,639
Speaker 3: just wanted to jump in a car and run away.

384
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Speaker 3: Neither of these girls were like that at all. So

385
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,199
Speaker 3: they did tell their parents that they were babysitting, and

386
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,440
Speaker 3: then they told the other family that they were going

387
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,199
Speaker 3: to the movies. They did neither of those things. So

388
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,400
Speaker 3: they went to a bus stop and that was where

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Speaker 3: they were last seen. And now, actually I interviewed the

390
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 3: woman who last score them, so she was absolutely positive

391
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,560
Speaker 3: about her because she knew them and waved to them

392
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 3: and said, Hi, where are you going? And that's how

393
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,639
Speaker 3: we knew that they were going to a disco at Woollongong.

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Speaker 3: So we don't know if they caught the bus, We

395
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Speaker 3: don't know if they were if they got into a

396
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 3: car with someone else, I can't imagine. And Malatt is

397
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 3: a prime suspect in that particular case. But I can't

398
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 3: imagine these two quite shy girls getting into a car

399
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:47,399
Speaker 3: with Ivan malatt I can't see that happening. I just

400
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 3: can't see it happening. And so either something either they

401
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:52,800
Speaker 3: did manage to get the bus and did get all

402
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 3: the way to Wollongong and then maybe couldn't get home

403
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:58,800
Speaker 3: and were desperate I don't know, or if they were

404
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 3: picked up by someone else, maybe someone they knew at

405
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 3: the bus stop at Guerrilla. And it's just a complete

406
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 3: mystery that there were mysterious letters sent home in those

407
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 3: cases to both parents received letters that they don't believe

408
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 3: were written. They either don't believe were written by the

409
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,520
Speaker 3: girls or were written under coercion because they had deliberate

410
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,239
Speaker 3: spelling mistakes that Kay would never have made. So and

411
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 3: again that's a really weird update to you know, why

412
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 3: would someone send letters. But there were also other weird

413
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 3: letters sent in other missing persons cases at exactly the

414
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 3: same time, So there's something strange was going on in

415
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Speaker 3: Sydney in nineteen seventy eight, nineteen seventy nine.

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Speaker 1: Because when you were describing your friend's family story, I

417
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,239
Speaker 1: had Kay and Tony in my head because it is

418
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,160
Speaker 1: so weirdly familiar that, you know, the two the young

419
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Speaker 1: girls at night going to a.

420
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Speaker 2: Disco on the side of the road.

421
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Speaker 3: It's a bit eerie, Yeah, and Trudy Adams exactly the

422
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,160
Speaker 3: same time, exactly the same location, also at a disco's.

423
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,640
Speaker 3: It is very concerning. And of course, if you read

424
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 3: baron Jerry Road, there were so many girls at that

425
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Speaker 3: time who were picked up hitchhiking, abducted, terrible, terrible things

426
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,239
Speaker 3: happened to them, and the suspects in those cases are

427
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,200
Speaker 3: now dead. So are we ever going to get answers

428
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,880
Speaker 3: with Kay and Tony. There were people who came forward,

429
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,400
Speaker 3: particularly when I was writing the book, who suggested there

430
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 3: was another person who lived locally at that time and

431
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 3: who had a son who went to school with the girls.

432
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 3: And that is a plausible theory to me. If they

433
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 3: if a car pulled up and it was a guy

434
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 3: that they recognized that they went to school with, maybe

435
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 3: they'd get in that car. So I don't think they've

436
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 3: been in a car with Malatt, who was you know,

437
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 3: he wasn't too old at that time, but he was

438
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:02,640
Speaker 3: an old He was definitely a man. Yeah, and a stranger.

439
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 3: I can't see them getting into a carpet. But if

440
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 3: someone pulled up that you knew and said, hey, I'm

441
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 3: going there anyway, they said, oh, well, we go to

442
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 3: school with him, we know who he is, I reckon

443
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 3: they might have gone into that car.

444
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,679
Speaker 1: I did notice a lot of criticism in your books

445
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 1: towards the police. In almost every case there are kind

446
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 1: of sightings of inadequate or bad policing or you know,

447
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 1: loss of evidence, police not believing them. Can you talk

448
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: to that because it does pop up a lot, and

449
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 1: it kind of makes it feel like it is a

450
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 1: bit more of a systemic issue.

451
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's certainly definitely not something I intended to do.

452
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 3: I've always had a really good working relationship with the police,

453
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,199
Speaker 3: and it's definitely not something I wanted to do or

454
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:53,919
Speaker 3: intended to do. But I couldn't change the stories that

455
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 3: were coming from the families, and it's very much from them.

456
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 3: And because I would say to the que okay, how

457
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 3: did police handle your case? And in Ky and Tony's case,

458
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 3: Tony's stepmom went to the police and said and said,

459
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 3: has there been any news about Tony? And they said, oh,

460
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 3: you know, if there is, we'll let you know, and

461
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 3: she walked away. In the words she used to me

462
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 3: were I felt like they were talking about a missing dog,

463
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 3: and how awful that the police would make you feel

464
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 3: that that's how they felt about your child. And so

465
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 3: I can't portray that in any other way than that's

466
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,199
Speaker 3: how it made them feel. And there are amazing police

467
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 3: officers out there. There are some who will get a

468
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 3: case and never let it go, and still even after

469
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 3: they retire, they're still going, we have to solve this.

470
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 3: And that was the case with k and Tony's one

471
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 3: of the initial police officers who was just a young

472
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 3: confortable at the time, spoke to me for the book,

473
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 3: and we're talking forty plus years later they and it

474
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 3: still eats away at him and he's still plugging away now,

475
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 3: an elderly person, plugging away trying to find answers. So

476
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 3: it's I don't like to tar them all with the

477
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 3: same brush, because that's completely unfair. But in many cases

478
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 3: there are things that have happened that are inexcusable, Like

479
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 3: you know, Tony Ryan going to the police and saying,

480
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 3: I found my sister's car, would you like to come

481
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 3: and check it out? Just in case she's in the

482
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 3: boot or something, and they handed him a code hanger

483
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 3: and said, off you go. I can't fathom how that

484
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 3: is acceptable. And I just keep getting these stories over

485
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 3: and over that are just not okay. And I think

486
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 3: we've come a long way since the seventies where they

487
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 3: just said, oh, it's a runaway, well, you know, she'll

488
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 3: turn up. We've come a long way, and there are

489
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 3: protocols now in place, but it's still there are still

490
00:26:55,160 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 3: very frustrating stories coming out, like Rickby Fielding's family feeling

491
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 3: very much that his case was almost treated with contempt

492
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 3: because he was homosexual requent missing in twenty fifteen. So

493
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 3: ten years ago, ten years ago, it shouldn't happen. Today,

494
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 3: it shouldn't happen. And yet there are still times when

495
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 3: a family will walk into a police session and say

496
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 3: I need to report my person missing and they go, oh,

497
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 3: you know, just see if they turn up come back tomorrow.

498
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 3: Not okay.

499
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: I guess when there's one hundred and forty people reported

500
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: missing every day, it's like, where do you put the resources.

501
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to make excuses here, but how do

502
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: you even change this?

503
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 3: I think the protocols are in place, and I think people,

504
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 3: if they watch a lot of American TV, they'll say, oh, well,

505
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,679
Speaker 3: you have to wait twenty four hours before reporting a

506
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 3: missing person. That's not the case in Australia. Has never

507
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 3: been the case in Australia. So it's not okay for

508
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 3: any police officer to say, oh, you know, come can

509
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 3: make the report tomorrow. By that stage, you've lost a

510
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 3: lot and a police officer on the other side of

511
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 3: a desk doesn't know you're missing person. And if you're

512
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 3: worried enough to go to the police and stand in

513
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 3: front of a policeman and say, I am so worried

514
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 3: because my son didn't come home from a party last night,

515
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 3: and for them to say, I'm sure he's fine, not

516
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 3: having ever met your son, knowing anything about the situation,

517
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 3: not knowing that your son comes home every night or

518
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 3: he rings you, is insulting. And so that the protocol

519
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 3: needs to be take the report and then decide sort

520
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 3: of how urgent the case is. But you've got to

521
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 3: take the report every time. That that should have been

522
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 3: evident after Daniel Morkan went missing, because they had trouble

523
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 3: reporting him missing, and it should have changed then. But

524
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 3: there are still but as you said that, they are

525
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 3: very under resourced, and in as in many industries and

526
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 3: service industries, you've got to allocate your staff where you can.

527
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 3: But that protocol should be you walk into a police

528
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 3: station and say I want to report someone missing. They say, okay,

529
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 3: let's go.

530
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: And it sounds like you kind of have to be

531
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: quite bullish to get hurd You have to yeah, really.

532
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 3: Advocate, yeah, And I advise families to do that. I

533
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 3: advise families to use certain words like his disappearance, he's

534
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 3: out of character, and I'm very worried, and I have

535
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 3: fears for his safety. I say use those exact words,

536
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 3: because then they have a duty of care to take

537
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 3: on that particular case. They if you say I have

538
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 3: fears for his safety and the police officers says, oh,

539
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 3: I'm sure they'll be fine. No, No, you can that.

540
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 3: You can't, you can't do that.

541
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: We've been finding in recent years some historical cold cases

542
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: are being solved all these years later with DNA. If

543
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: you know, blood or other bodily fluids have been saved

544
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: and preserved, We're actually able to solve some of these

545
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: crimes years and years later. Are you finding that that's

546
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: giving some of the families you know and work with hope.

547
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 3: It is it is, it really is. I think with

548
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 3: Susan Goodwin being found in Adelaide Port lickoln Sorry in

549
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 3: just recent months, that has given people hope because she

550
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 3: was missing for decades and so people go, oh, there

551
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 3: are still people being found and in the cases like

552
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 3: Roxland Bowie and Lynn Dawson, there are convictions that are

553
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 3: still happening forty plus years on from someone going missing.

554
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:50,239
Speaker 3: So I think that the challenges that they have been

555
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 3: facing with DNA testing in Australia has shaken the confidence

556
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 3: of people. But there was a push a couple of

557
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 3: years ago. The Australian police came to me and said,

558
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 3: can you help us get the word out to all

559
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 3: the families to give their DNA if they haven't before.

560
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 3: I do know of a family of someone that are

561
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,239
Speaker 3: writing about in the next book who have given their

562
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 3: DNA four times and the police keep losing it and

563
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 3: so it's really hard. And they came back to the

564
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 3: family and said, oh, can we just take it one

565
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 3: more time? And they said no, And so it's really

566
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 3: hard to keep those families going and say yes, please,

567
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 3: let's just keep trying, keep trying, to keep trying, because

568
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 3: if they find someone, then then the match can be made.

569
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 3: It's sometimes really hard when you try to give them

570
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 3: that hope and then the technology lets you down. If

571
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 3: the system doesn't work, if they're not storing the DNA,

572
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 3: and in the case of Queensland, the terrible DNA bungles

573
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 3: mean that DNA testing of remains is years behind. And

574
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 3: so it's there. The system is there, but it just

575
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 3: needs to be implemented properly.

576
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: I want to talk about Jason Masarek because his disappearance,

577
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: which you mentioned in your book, was particularly mysterious, wasn't it.

578
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about his story?

579
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's one that does stick with me, and it's

580
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 3: a family I've gotten to know very well. I met

581
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 3: his sister, so I have that personal connection with them

582
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 3: and know how devastated they were when he went missing.

583
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 3: He was twenty years old, went to the casino in

584
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 3: Sandy Bay in Hobart for a night out. His sister

585
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 3: had won her sporting match and he and his sister

586
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 3: and his best mate went to the casino to celebrate.

587
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,959
Speaker 3: There was a disco upstairs in the casino, so they

588
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 3: went up there, and at the end of the night

589
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 3: was about two o'clock in the morning, and they said, okay,

590
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 3: let's call it a night. They were heading back to

591
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 3: another sister's house for the e evening, and Jason's sister

592
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 3: just said, oh, you made us still upstairs, I'll go

593
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 3: and get him. You wait here in the lobby. I'll

594
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 3: just go up and get him and I'll meet you

595
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 3: down here in a minute. She went upstairs. In the

596
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 3: time it took her to just go upstairs to the disco,

597
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:18,959
Speaker 3: find the best mate, come back down to the lobby.

598
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 3: Jason completely disappeared. There is CCTV footage of him walking

599
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 3: outside the lobby with a security guard. The casino said

600
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 3: that he wasn't being escorted out, that they just happened

601
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 3: to be walking out at the same time. But the

602
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 3: family has said that it has happened before that they

603
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 3: don't like people waiting around in the lobby, so they say, no,

604
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 3: you have to wait outside. You can't sort of loiter

605
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 3: in the lobby. So it is I think that he

606
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 3: probably was asked to wait outside instead of waiting in

607
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 3: the lobby. But whatever has happened outside the casino, Jason

608
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 3: has totally disappeared. The police think, for some really bizarre reason,

609
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 3: that Jason has suddenly decided to kill himself despite absolutely

610
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 3: no evidence whatsoever. There was no mental illness, there's no depression,

611
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 3: there's no anything whatsoever. He was he had had a

612
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 3: fantastic night with his sister and his friend. He was

613
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 3: happy in his life. Twenty years old. He was about

614
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 3: to join the navy. He had an appointment with the

615
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 3: recruitment officer in two days time. He had a dental

616
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 3: appointment because he had a broken front tooth. He had

617
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 3: a dentist appointment to fix that tooth. He was really

618
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 3: excited about that. He was going to get his tooth fixed,

619
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 3: loving family, and so for some reason, whether it was

620
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 3: the easiest answer to what happened, But police and the

621
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 3: coroner decided that he threw himself into the water at

622
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 3: Sandy Bay, and his family have never accepted that. And

623
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 3: it makes no sense to anyone who knew Jason, or

624
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 3: even to me. I didn't know Jason, but it makes

625
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 3: no sense to me at all. But that's what would

626
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 3: happen in this is that's a ridiculous thing to say.

627
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 3: So what happened to Jason that night? I have no idea,

628
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,280
Speaker 3: and I can only hope that people might be sitting

629
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,760
Speaker 3: on something that they saw that night and can still

630
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 3: come forward. Maybe they're frightened to come forward, maybe they

631
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 3: saw I have no idea, like maybe Jason saw a

632
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 3: drug deal going down in the car park and they

633
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 3: saw him watching and attacked it. I have no idea.

634
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 3: I have no idea.

635
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: It is one of those cases where it appears like

636
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: someone literally has vanished into thin air, and you struggle

637
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 1: in your brain to kind of logically work it out.

638
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: What did his disappearance do to his family?

639
00:35:54,719 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 3: They were in absolute disbelief, like they couldn't they They

640
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 3: did try to think, Okay, what are the possibilities here.

641
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 3: Has he just decided to go off and make a

642
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 3: new life. They very quickly decided that was not the case.

643
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,879
Speaker 3: Did he throw himself into the harbor at Sandy Bay?

644
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 3: They very quickly decided that was absolutely not the case.

645
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 3: So they after going through the possibilities of what could happen,

646
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 3: they came back to foul play fairly quickly, and then

647
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 3: they were faced with the frustration of police not accepting

648
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 3: that that was the only explanation, and so it just

649
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 3: it tore them apart. Their mother just went to pieces

650
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 3: and then the rest of the family they were thrown into.

651
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 3: I think it was probably responsible for the breakup of

652
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 3: one of the marriages of one of his sisters. He

653
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 3: was the baby, he was the little boy of the family,

654
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 3: and all of the sisters just loved him so much

655
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 3: and that was on apart, and now they've had to

656
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,879
Speaker 3: try and rebuild their lives without him, and it has

657
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 3: devastated that entire family.

658
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: After the break we dive into the case of Marcia Ryan,

659
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: questioning whether she ran away to start a new life

660
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 1: or vanished against her will. Moving to the case of

661
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 1: Marcia Ryan, which was nineteen ninety six that she went missing,

662
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: there are some family members that believe that.

663
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 2: She might have actually started a new life. How common

664
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 2: is that as a.

665
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 3: Theory, Extremely uncommon because it's hard to do. It's really

666
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 3: hard to do in I paid my gas bill the

667
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 3: other day and had to verify my identity. Yeah, so

668
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,760
Speaker 3: if there are somewhere that there's someone out there wanting

669
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 3: to pay my bills for me, go ahead. So you

670
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 3: have to verify your identity to do absolutely anything in Australia,

671
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 3: to log into your email account, to look into your

672
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 3: work emails. You have to get text verification. It is

673
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 3: really really difficult to disappear and go completely off grid.

674
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 3: She actually had done it before, and I think that

675
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 3: that's why they thought maybe she was capable of doing

676
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 3: that again. Marcia had a very complex and tragic history.

677
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 3: She witnessed the death of her sister in a car accident,

678
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 3: literally witnessed it, like rang to the car after it

679
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 3: had happened and saw her, and that triggered a horrific

680
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 3: mental spiral in her to the point where she completely

681
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 3: lost her mind. Her family would agree that that's the

682
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 3: most accurate way of putting it. They found her in

683
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 3: an absolute complete mess, and she had been living off

684
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 3: grid and living in the bush in northern New South

685
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 3: Wales with a boyfriend. And she was immediately hospitalized and

686
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 3: they took her by ambulance back to Victoria. She was

687
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 3: hospitalized for a very long time in a psychiatric institution,

688
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 3: but she actually did recover. A lot of work and

689
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 3: a lot of therapy went into her recovery, and she

690
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 3: had been fine and she had been stable for a

691
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 3: long time. She was engaged, but that engagement ended, but

692
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 3: she was quite okay with that. She was working for

693
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 3: family members, and she seemed quite happy. She socialized, she

694
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 3: went out with friends. But the mental spiral, We're not

695
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 3: sure what triggered it, but the mental spiral started to

696
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,280
Speaker 3: happen again, and I think that's what contributed to Marshia

697
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 3: going missing. But she had lived off grid before, so

698
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 3: it is possible that she chose to do that, although

699
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:48,720
Speaker 3: she was very close to her family, I don't imagine.

700
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 3: And the other thing is because she had lost a

701
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 3: sister and her parents had already lost a daughter, and

702
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 3: she saw what it did to her parents. I don't

703
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,439
Speaker 3: think she would have willingly done that to again.

704
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:06,439
Speaker 1: Marcia's last known movements were around ten pm at night.

705
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: She had planned to drive into state from Victoria to

706
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: Queensland to see her parents. But then you've got an

707
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 1: abandoned car. They found her wallet. So there's all these

708
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 1: kind of clues that go, oh, like.

709
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 3: What happened here exactly exactly? It would seem to be

710
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 3: foul play. But as one of her brothers put it

711
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 3: to me, the chance of a psychopathic maniac driving past

712
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 3: at the exact moment that Marcia was walking along the

713
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 3: side of the Prince's Highway is astronomical, but perhaps there

714
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 3: was someone who did have terrible intentions, who saw an

715
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 3: opportunity and took it to harm her. The other mystery

716
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 3: is that she was with her dog, Ziggy, who would

717
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 3: not have left her side. But Ziggi has also never

718
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 3: been found. So what happened? And why was her wallet

719
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 3: found at Darnham which is on the way back towards

720
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 3: Melbourne So the car missing? The car was found between

721
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,000
Speaker 3: Muey and moorewell, but then her wallet was found on

722
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 3: the way back to Melbourne. So did she get a

723
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 3: lift with someone? And why did she get lift with

724
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 3: someone when her car was fine, She had a petrol card,

725
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 3: she'd just passed a field station. She could have put

726
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 3: fuel in her own car very easily, So why then

727
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 3: did she jump into someone else's car? And if that's

728
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,760
Speaker 3: the case, where did she go? There was a massive

729
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 3: search of the local area and you would have thought

730
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 3: if she had accidentally died, they would have found her

731
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 3: body and they would have found Zicky. If someone had

732
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 3: harmed her again, wouldn't they have found some sort of trace.

733
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 3: But it was a few days before the alarm was

734
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 3: raised because police did keep spotting her car by the

735
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 3: side of the road and didn't alert anyone, and the

736
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 3: family did think that she was just still on her

737
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 3: way to Queensland. So it was a few days before

738
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 3: her parents said, oh, hang on, Marsia hasn't turned up

739
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 3: all and something has happened. So it was a while

740
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,280
Speaker 3: before the alarm was raised. It wasn't immediate.

741
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: I know it would be hard now in twenty twenty

742
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 1: six to go missing, but in nineteen ninety six, would.

743
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 2: There have been more of a chance.

744
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 3: I think so. We didn't have the internet in nineteen

745
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 3: ninety six, we didn't have a lot of digital checks.

746
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:28,839
Speaker 3: I think sometimes if you managed to get a cash

747
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 3: and hand job, then you can live off grid, and

748
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 3: she did live off grid. But also if you had

749
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:39,720
Speaker 3: such a serious illness as Marcia had had in her youth,

750
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 3: that's going to come to someone's attention. You can't live,

751
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 3: you know. I think that there are in communities where

752
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 3: they think, oh, you know, there is a crazy old

753
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 3: lady that lives in a little shack in that little

754
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 3: country town, or lives in the bush somewhere, And there

755
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 3: are people like that who I think managed to grow

756
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 3: their own vegetables and live away from the rest of

757
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 3: the world. But generally, if your mental illness is that severe,

758
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,439
Speaker 3: you won't be able to function. Certainly, Marcia's illness when

759
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,879
Speaker 3: she was young meant she could not function at all.

760
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 3: You can't feed yourself, you can't dress yourself, you can't

761
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 3: She was an absolute mess, and if her mind did

762
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 3: get to that point again, she couldn't have looked after herself.

763
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,879
Speaker 3: And I can't see a reason for it as well,

764
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 3: unless the only thing that her brothers suggested was she

765
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 3: was terrified of going back into a psychiatric institution because

766
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 3: it would have been awful for her to be in there,

767
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 3: and so she's thought, well, perhaps if I just stay away,

768
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 3: they can't put me back in there, even though that's

769
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 3: probably where she needed to be at that stage.

770
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:51,720
Speaker 1: There was a moment there where one of Marcia's brothers

771
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 1: was a suspect, which I imagine would happen a lot

772
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: because you look at the people closest to someone missing first.

773
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: But what is that experience like for families where they

774
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: are suspected when they have had nothing to do with it.

775
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: That must be quite a traumatizing experience.

776
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 3: Very much so. And I think if you look at

777
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 3: it from the point of view of police and statistically,

778
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 3: people are harmed by the people who are closest to them,

779
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:25,720
Speaker 3: so stranger murders are much rarer than say a husband

780
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 3: or Generally, brothers and sisters don't tend to hurt each other.

781
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 3: But in many cases the brothers and sisters, if they're

782
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 3: the last people to have seen them, they are treated

783
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 3: as suspects until that is no longer the case. But

784
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 3: to have that initial panic as where's my brother gone,

785
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 3: where's my sister gone, and then to have the suspicion

786
00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:57,439
Speaker 3: as well, that just compounds your trauma and they'll never

787
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 3: get over that, and it probably does breed a distrust

788
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 3: the police because they would be thinking, why are you

789
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 3: looking at me? Obviously I didn't do anything, go and

790
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 3: find a person that did it, And so it would

791
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 3: be very frustrating because they would not They would just

792
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:18,800
Speaker 3: have that immense weight and the pressure of what's happened

793
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 3: to them, just compounding everything. In the case of Massi's brother,

794
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,919
Speaker 3: he did not cope at all. He's since passed away,

795
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 3: and I interviewed him before he passed away, and he

796
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 3: was difficult to talk to. He still carried that trauma,

797
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:39,240
Speaker 3: and I think and that he did want to impress

798
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 3: upon me that he had nothing to do with it,

799
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 3: and I never once ever thought that he had anything

800
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 3: to do with it. Just cared about her so much,

801
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 3: and so he carried that forever. He carried that throughout

802
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 3: his life, and it had a devastating impact on him

803
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 3: and probably contributed to his death.

804
00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:00,800
Speaker 1: I think it really does show how when one person

805
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: goes missing, just how wide that effect is, how many people's.

806
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 2: Lives can be ruined by.

807
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,319
Speaker 1: Something like that, which I think your work really shows us.

808
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. You know, most people that you

809
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 3: talk to will they might have some connection to a

810
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 3: missing person somewhere along the line. I had a man

811
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 3: who came to my house who wanted to buy one

812
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 3: of my books, and he said, oh, yeah, I had

813
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 3: my friend's brother went missing and I ended up writing

814
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 3: about him for the Thin. But yeah, most people will go,

815
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:37,399
Speaker 3: oh yeah, yeah, I know someone who knows someone who

816
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 3: went missing. So it affects I suppose when you have

817
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 3: fifty six thousand a year, it affects. It affects so

818
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 3: many people, and then that ripple effect.

819
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety seven, a twenty eight year old mother

820
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 1: of two, Gail King, left her family's home on South

821
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: Australia's York Peninsula one evening to head home for a

822
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 1: work meeting the next day in Adelaide. Her car was

823
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:05,399
Speaker 1: found back home. It turns out there was no work

824
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: meeting scheduled and she was nowhere. We've never found her.

825
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 1: What stays with you about that case?

826
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, with Gail, I think I do know what happened,

827
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 3: and I think her family know exactly what happened, and

828
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 3: I think police know exactly what happened. But the question

829
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 3: of there not being any evidence to prove.

830
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 2: That, which is another hardship.

831
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, It is so frustrating because you think

832
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 3: this poor woman has absolutely no justice And as you said,

833
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 3: there there was no work meeting to come home to.

834
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 3: She was unhappy in her life and I think she

835
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 3: wanted to make changes in her life. And the police

836
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 3: absolutely made the very rare statement of saying to the

837
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 3: media at the time there is absolutely no evidence that

838
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 3: she left Middleton on the York Peninsula. There's no evidence

839
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 3: that she ever made it back to Adelaide. So that

840
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 3: leads people to draw their own conclusions about what may

841
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:16,720
Speaker 3: have happened and who is telling the truth in whatever case.

842
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:21,439
Speaker 3: So there is very little evidence that she got back

843
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:26,320
Speaker 3: to Brama Lodge. I think that they were desperately trying

844
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:28,799
Speaker 3: to track down a milkman who may have sort of

845
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 3: been delivering milker around the same time that she may

846
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 3: have got back there. But if there was no meeting

847
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:40,280
Speaker 3: to come back to, why did she come back to Adelaide?

848
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 3: And there was the remains of a chicken dinner in

849
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 3: the fridge, but very very little evidence to suggest what

850
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 3: actually happened to Gayle King. But her brother and sister

851
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 3: in law are among the most determined family members I

852
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 3: have ever seen, and they will never give up.

853
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:03,399
Speaker 1: It does kind of bring up when you know, there's

854
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 1: the families that have no idea what's happened, and then

855
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 1: there's other families who do believe they know what's happened.

856
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 3: Both are.

857
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 2: Horrendous realities to live with.

858
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 3: Yes, very much, so very much. So, you know, they

859
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,720
Speaker 3: if this particular scenario didn't happen, then what did happen?

860
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 3: And if there isn't another scenario, you have to keep

861
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 3: coming back to that one and the frustration that that

862
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:34,359
Speaker 3: must be, the incredible frustration that they live with every

863
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,879
Speaker 3: day knowing that someone is walking around having committed the

864
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 3: worst possible crime that you can commit, taken a mother

865
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 3: away from her children, you know, how can you? And

866
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 3: in cases like Sheryl Grimmer's brother, he just just is

867
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 3: feeling rage towards the person that he feels took his

868
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,879
Speaker 3: baby sister and expresses that publicly to the point where

869
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 3: police had to sort of warn him to stop. Whereas

870
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:08,720
Speaker 3: I think that's completely justified and understandable, I think that

871
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 3: we must express our rage and we shouldn't be polite

872
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,760
Speaker 3: about these things and say no, this is not okay.

873
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 3: If we don't stand up and fight for these people

874
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 3: who don't have a voice anymore, than who will.

875
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 1: I want to touch on one more case because it's

876
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 1: one that's recently reopened, Sandrine Jordan. What do we know

877
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 1: about her disappearance and why was it back in the

878
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:33,760
Speaker 1: headlines recently.

879
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:42,760
Speaker 3: Sandrine's case is so complex and it's another one where

880
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 3: I do fear that police have got it wrong, and

881
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 3: I think it's a very good illustration of how police

882
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 3: can make assumptions about a person. Sandrine did have a

883
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 3: bit of a troubled past, but she absolutely adored her

884
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 3: children and all she wanted in life was to have

885
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 3: her children to live with her again, and she had

886
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 3: achieved that at the time that she went missing. She

887
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 3: had secured housing so that the kids could come and

888
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 3: live with her again. She was painting, She was a

889
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 3: very creative person. She went to drumming retreats. She had

890
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 3: a wide group of friends that she absolutely loved. She

891
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 3: was really thriving in her life. She was very happy.

892
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,240
Speaker 3: But for some reason, again police decided that she'd taken

893
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 3: her own life. And the reason that they decided that

894
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:34,359
Speaker 3: was because she had tried to before. She had made

895
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 3: a previous suicide attempt and did have some mental illness.

896
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 3: But what if they had dug a little deeper, they

897
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 3: would have realized that after that suicide attempt, Sandrine made

898
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 3: very clear statements to her family saying, I saw what

899
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 3: this did to you all and realized the impact it

900
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 3: had on my children and my marriage and all of

901
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 3: these things, and I will never do that again. And

902
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 3: she was absolutely if you promised your mother that you'll

903
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 3: never do that again and so, and she had no

904
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 3: reason to at that particular time. She was doing really well.

905
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 3: So for police to just say, oh, she'd had a

906
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:17,360
Speaker 3: previous suicide attempt there, so that's what's happened is lazy policing,

907
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,280
Speaker 3: and I'm happy to say that because it is lazy policing,

908
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 3: you need to look much deeper at all the complex

909
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:27,440
Speaker 3: relationships that Sandrine had in her life. She had a

910
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 3: lot of different men in her life, none of whom

911
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,320
Speaker 3: can be ruled out as suspects. The day she went missing,

912
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 3: she had gone to visit a friend. That friend has

913
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 3: recently died, so we can no longer ask him about

914
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 3: what happened in that particular situation. He told police that

915
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,839
Speaker 3: Sandrine came to visit him. He took his son and

916
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 3: his son's mate to motocross, left Sandrine by the gate,

917
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 3: said you know, I'll be back, went to motocross, but

918
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 3: it wasn't on, so he returned to the house quite quickly,

919
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 3: and Sandrine had vanished. So where she went that day

920
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 3: is anybody's guests. She didn't have a car, so would

921
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 3: have needed a lift or to walk or a bus somewhere.

922
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 3: The under investigation program, which I think came out last year,

923
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 3: did uncover quite a few new details and clues for

924
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 3: the investigation. There were witnesses who came forward who apparently

925
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 3: heard gunshots, heard screaming, saw different cars doing different things

926
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 3: in Tomlinson Road in Kubulchre. There were suspicious neighbors, and

927
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 3: of course a group of friends and family of Sandrine

928
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 3: did dig up items that they believe were the clothes

929
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 3: that she was last wearing, and those were dug up

930
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,240
Speaker 3: on a property next door to where she went missing,

931
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 3: and police did search, but no remains were found, and

932
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 3: again they sent the items off for forensic testing and

933
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 3: it came back inconclusive. So that's why when I said

934
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 3: before about DNA testing being a little bit you know,

935
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:14,600
Speaker 3: it's sometimes you think, well, if you found the clothes

936
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 3: that she was last wearing, surely there's evidence on that.

937
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 3: But according to police, they couldn't match that, even though

938
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 3: there were things like a shell half a shell, and

939
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 3: Sandrin's daughter has the other half of the shell, so

940
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 3: they match, and it is they are exactly the clothes

941
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 3: that she was last wearing. I have a photo of

942
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,879
Speaker 3: her wearing these clothes, so it would seem that there's

943
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,359
Speaker 3: a lot of evidence, but the coroner very quickly ruled

944
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 3: it a suicide and closed the case. So her family

945
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 3: have been pushing and pushing and pushing for a proper

946
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 3: investigation into it, and I think hopefully, with a bit

947
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:57,279
Speaker 3: of luck, that that will actually it will happen very

948
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,279
Speaker 3: soon because it was never a proper inquest. We need

949
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 3: an inquest to investigate everything that went on, all of

950
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 3: the people she was involved with, all of the witness sightings,

951
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 3: everything that happened that day. The clothes need to be retested,

952
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 3: All of that needs to be properly looked at. Because

953
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 3: no one who knew Sandrine believes that she took her

954
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 3: own life. I think that someone took her life.

955
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 1: And that inquest was twenty eighteen, so her family have

956
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 1: been fighting for a very long time since then even

957
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:29,360
Speaker 1: to have stuff reopened.

958
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, because an inquest should be a total investigation.

959
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,319
Speaker 3: But it was not a proper inquest. They just would

960
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 3: that she had taken her own life. Nothing has been

961
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 3: done properly. It was just very quickly. Oh well, she's

962
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:45,359
Speaker 3: a previous suicide attempt, therefore she's taken her own life. Yeah,

963
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 3: it's not good enough.

964
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 1: How is working on so many cases of missing people

965
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 1: affected you and your mental health and your sense of

966
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:55,240
Speaker 1: the world.

967
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 3: It's because I've been doing such a long time. It's

968
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 3: a lot easier now, I think because it's in my

969
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 3: day job. I deal with a lot of death, and

970
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 3: you sort of have to be a little bit immune

971
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 3: to that. You can't go to pieces and me if

972
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 3: I was in distress and went to pieces, then I

973
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 3: would be of no use to the families at all.

974
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 3: And you do have to look at it objectively and say,

975
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 3: this is not happening to my family. So I can't

976
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 3: let it devastate me. But it does. It can get

977
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 3: to me, and there are times when I recognize that

978
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:38,319
Speaker 3: it is affecting me and I need to take a

979
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:43,880
Speaker 3: little break. I haven't been very good at that, particularly

980
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 3: because I've been writing the books as well, so I

981
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 3: feel like I've added to that mental workload rather than

982
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 3: eased it off, which can be really tricky. I think

983
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 3: after Missing Person's Week this week, I remember in the

984
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 3: middle of it, I sent a message to Susie Ratcliffe,

985
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:07,400
Speaker 3: who's the sister of Joanne Ratcliffe, missing a missing child.

986
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 3: Susie runs the Leave a Light On Foundation, so we

987
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 3: work quite closely together, and I sent a message to

988
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 3: Susie going, I can't do this, I can't do this,

989
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 3: and she said, of course you can. Don't be silly.

990
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 3: And it was because Facebook dramatically increased my post reach

991
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 3: for missing Persons week this week and said, oh, because

992
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 3: you post great content, we're increasing the amount of people

993
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 3: that we share, you know. And I had I think

994
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 3: it got up to eighty six million views of the posts,

995
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 3: which was which was amazing. But I am one person,

996
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 3: and I then had to moderate comments from around the world.

997
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 3: I had thousands and thousands of people commenting and sending

998
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 3: me messages. And I think because they kind of promote

999
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 3: it as a page where I don't see it that way,

1000
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 3: or I see it as a support and assistance page, don't.

1001
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 3: I don't that the thought of that kind of horrifies me.

1002
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 3: That people just see it as, oh, you know, let's

1003
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 3: go in and read about these juicy crimes. That makes

1004
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 3: me feel a bit sick. I see it as very

1005
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 3: much I'm making these appeals for these missing persons, and

1006
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 3: the reason I want you to read it is in

1007
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 3: case you know something. So that's that's how I view it.

1008
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 3: But I had to deal with all of these people

1009
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 3: and people who get on and speculate and make commentsal

1010
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 3: and obviously they're dead. Obviously they're you know, I think

1011
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 3: a husband killed her and all of these things that

1012
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 3: can't be out in the public. So I had to

1013
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 3: just be on it twenty four hours a day, and

1014
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 3: it really really got to me to the point where

1015
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 3: I was just like, and it was a family member

1016
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 3: who was angry about something or other, a photo or

1017
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 3: something at the time. That was kind of the tipping

1018
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 3: point where I just thought, why am I doing this?

1019
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 3: Why I can't do this anymore? But you just need

1020
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 3: to take a break, step back, relax, and go, Okay,

1021
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 3: this is not happening to me. This is my job

1022
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 3: that I don't get paid for. This is just what

1023
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 3: I do to help people. And if I can't do

1024
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 3: it calmly and effectively, I need to stop and just

1025
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 3: reset and then do I can only do what I

1026
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 3: can do. When you've got fifty six thousand a year,

1027
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 3: you have to just kind of only do what you

1028
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 3: can do and keep doing it as long as people

1029
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 3: need me to.

1030
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:43,919
Speaker 1: Flicking through your books, so many of those names people

1031
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 1: won't recognize. They're new cases to them. I feel like

1032
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,560
Speaker 1: we know you know, you can mention the Baumont children

1033
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 1: and people know who that is, or Daniel Morcombe who

1034
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:57,480
Speaker 1: you said before, or William Tyrrell. But there are so

1035
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 1: many other stories that I would argue are just as

1036
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 1: I guess, interesting from a media perspective. But why don't

1037
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 1: we know more of these stories?

1038
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 3: Well that's been quite deliberate. I've sought out stories that

1039
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 3: people don't know because some of those families don't need

1040
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 3: me to give them that extra publicity, because they're doing

1041
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:23,440
Speaker 3: such a great job on their own of getting the

1042
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 3: word out there. But it's those families that don't have

1043
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 3: perhaps that ability that they sort of go, oh, you know,

1044
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 3: I've got my missing person, but I wouldn't have the

1045
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,440
Speaker 3: first idea of how to get how to contact the media,

1046
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 3: or how to tell their story or how to do that.

1047
01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 3: So those are the stories that I wanted to tell

1048
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 3: because they're and often when I started to investigate it,

1049
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:49,360
Speaker 3: I would sometimes think, oh, this is a fairly simple case.

1050
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:51,840
Speaker 3: This is just a guy who went missing on a beach.

1051
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 3: This is a guy who's lost in the bush on

1052
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 3: his own property. And the more that I dug into it,

1053
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 3: the more complex it would be realized that it's just

1054
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 3: so interesting for people to read. And when something is

1055
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:06,960
Speaker 3: interesting to read, they'll read it and maybe they know

1056
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:10,959
Speaker 3: something about it. So that's the really important thing. Maybe

1057
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 3: it'll strike a cord going, Oh, hang on a minute.

1058
01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 3: I know that my cousin lives up that road. I'm

1059
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 3: going to ask them if they know about this or

1060
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 3: and people talk about interesting cases. So I think it's

1061
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 3: just it's sometimes it's a privilege to be able to

1062
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 3: tell their stories when they can't, when a family can't

1063
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:37,400
Speaker 3: tell the story themselves, when they perhaps sometimes it's too hard,

1064
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 3: sometimes they just don't know how, they just can't find

1065
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 3: the words, and so it's a privilege to be able

1066
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 3: to do that for them and to get those stories

1067
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,360
Speaker 3: out there. And I feel like when I write them,

1068
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 3: I feel like I've got those missing persons kind of

1069
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 3: standing behind my shoulder saying yeah, thanks.

1070
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 1: Thank you to Nicole for helping us to tell these stories.

1071
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:04,080
Speaker 1: If you have any information about a missing person, you

1072
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:07,320
Speaker 1: can contact crime Stoppers on one eight hundred three three

1073
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:12,240
Speaker 1: three zero zero zero or go to www dot crimestoppers

1074
01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 1: dot com dot Au. You can find links to her

1075
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 1: books Vanished and Missing in our show notes. You can

1076
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 1: also find a link to the Australian Missing Persons Register.

1077
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 3: If you want to see.

1078
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 1: Images from these stories, head to our Instagram page at

1079
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:28,560
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations. True Crime Conversations is hosted by me

1080
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 1: Jemma bath Our. Senior producer is Tarlie Blackman. The group

1081
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 1: executive producer is Alaria Brophy, and there's been audio designed

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Speaker 1: by Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be

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Speaker 1: back next week with another True Crime Conversation.

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Speaker 4: This story mentioned themes of suicide. If any part of

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Speaker 4: this episode has caused you distress, please note that support

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Speaker 4: is available. You can contact Lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen

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Speaker 4: or Beyond Blue on one three hundred double two four

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Speaker 4: six three six for confidential help and support.

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Speaker 3: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

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Speaker 3: waters that this podcast was recorded on