WEBVTT - From Management To Mushrooms: When Eleanor Mills Got Fired 0:00:10.287 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a mother Mia podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.767 --> 0:00:18.607 that this podcast is recorded. 0:00:18.207 --> 0:00:22.367 On What do you want? 0:00:23.367 --> 0:00:27.327 No, really, not for lunch or those sushi would be nice, 0:00:27.767 --> 0:00:30.167 not for your birthday, or to buy with that tax 0:00:30.207 --> 0:00:33.727 return or to add to cart. Tonight, Mid Doom scroll No, 0:00:34.487 --> 0:00:35.927 if you stopped. 0:00:36.087 --> 0:00:37.127 Like now. 0:00:38.407 --> 0:00:41.607 And set somewhere quiet for a moment and let yourself 0:00:41.727 --> 0:00:46.647 really think about that question, what do you want? What 0:00:46.687 --> 0:00:50.647 words would come? Our guest today on mid thinks that 0:00:50.767 --> 0:00:54.087 doing that, claiming the time to stop and truly ask 0:00:54.167 --> 0:00:57.887 yourself that question is one of the most radical things 0:00:57.927 --> 0:01:00.007 a woman in the middle of her life can do, 0:01:00.887 --> 0:01:04.647 because it's likely, by this point, somewhere roughly in the middle, 0:01:04.887 --> 0:01:07.647 that you've been spending a lot of time lately making 0:01:07.687 --> 0:01:14.927 sure that other people get they want partners, parents, bosses, children, cats, 0:01:15.807 --> 0:01:21.247 so much so that the question itself seems indulgent, selfish. 0:01:21.847 --> 0:01:24.767 But maybe if you can stand to sit with it, 0:01:24.887 --> 0:01:29.407 a word or two will come. Freedom is one of 0:01:29.447 --> 0:01:33.487 my big ones. Peace might come up more. 0:01:33.847 --> 0:01:35.687 You might say, we'll allow it. 0:01:36.487 --> 0:01:39.847 Yours might be Love, might be security, might be family, 0:01:40.047 --> 0:01:43.527 maybe purpose, And from there if you started to build 0:01:43.567 --> 0:01:46.447 out a life anchored to that word, what would it be? 0:01:46.967 --> 0:01:49.967 What difference would it make to the very next thing 0:01:50.087 --> 0:01:53.287 you do and the next I know all this sounds 0:01:53.327 --> 0:01:55.447 a bit like an inspirational quote on a tea towel 0:01:55.887 --> 0:01:58.167 or something you saw in cursive fon over a picture 0:01:58.167 --> 0:02:01.367 of a sunset on Instagram in twenty fifteen. But the 0:02:01.407 --> 0:02:04.887 truth is mits if we don't ask this question, no 0:02:04.967 --> 0:02:08.807 one else is going to. And it's the best possible 0:02:08.847 --> 0:02:11.247 time to ask it, better even than when we were 0:02:11.247 --> 0:02:14.127 finishing school or studies, or we were in our first jobs, 0:02:14.207 --> 0:02:17.647 or we were in our first relationships, because you might 0:02:17.727 --> 0:02:20.487 actually be in with a chance of getting it. The 0:02:20.527 --> 0:02:24.127 world underestimates midwomen. We're no longer of interest to a 0:02:24.167 --> 0:02:27.447 system that values women's youth and beauty above all else 0:02:28.047 --> 0:02:32.047 we can feel discarded and unseen. That sounds shit, and 0:02:32.167 --> 0:02:36.247 it is, but it comes with a surprising upside. It's 0:02:36.287 --> 0:02:39.607 that if nobody cares what you want now, really, then we, 0:02:39.967 --> 0:02:43.487 using our invisibility superpowers and our hard won smarts, are 0:02:43.527 --> 0:02:48.647 in the perfect position to take it. It's amazing what you 0:02:48.727 --> 0:02:52.207 can do when no one's looking. It's most likely, though, 0:02:52.287 --> 0:02:55.007 that if we ask ourselves this question at all, it's 0:02:55.047 --> 0:03:00.727 from a moment of crash, of devastation, of redundancy, of divorce, 0:03:00.927 --> 0:03:06.407 a health crisis, a burnout episode, an upending grief. For me, 0:03:06.727 --> 0:03:10.047 it was a breakdown, a brain rattling, overwhelmed that my 0:03:10.167 --> 0:03:15.127 guest today would call a midlife collision. And it felt 0:03:15.167 --> 0:03:19.847 like that shattering. But from the debris we are rebuilders. 0:03:20.327 --> 0:03:29.727 So what is it that you really really want? Zigaziga? Hello, Hello, 0:03:29.927 --> 0:03:34.087 I am Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife, mid family, 0:03:34.327 --> 0:03:39.407 mid midlife collision. Eleanor Mills didn't know she was about 0:03:39.487 --> 0:03:43.967 to get fired. She had a very fancy, high status, 0:03:44.007 --> 0:03:47.087 deeply demanding job that she had built her life and 0:03:47.207 --> 0:03:51.127 identity around for decades, and then one day she was 0:03:51.167 --> 0:03:53.047 asked to come up and have a chat with her boss, 0:03:53.127 --> 0:03:55.967 that old thing, and it was over. 0:03:56.887 --> 0:03:57.727 She was fifty. 0:03:58.487 --> 0:04:01.327 It was a moment of devastation for Eleanor, one that 0:04:01.407 --> 0:04:05.327 called for a significant rebuild after the prerequisite period of 0:04:05.407 --> 0:04:08.127 rocking in a corner. Obviously, and you won't be surprised 0:04:08.167 --> 0:04:10.847 to hear this, being middle and everything, that what Eleanor 0:04:10.847 --> 0:04:14.887 did next was completely transformative. But before you think that 0:04:14.967 --> 0:04:18.047 this is just a story about super successful ad types 0:04:18.087 --> 0:04:21.327 tweaking their dreams. I want to assure you this is 0:04:21.447 --> 0:04:27.087 actually an extraordinary story about a very ordinary thing, what 0:04:27.167 --> 0:04:30.367 you do when everything you thought you wanted is taken 0:04:30.407 --> 0:04:33.207 away and you have to figure out what the hell 0:04:33.287 --> 0:04:37.887 you really want. Now, let's call it the mid life rebuild. 0:04:38.527 --> 0:04:42.727 Eleanor's story takes in magic, mushroom trips in Jamaica, the 0:04:42.767 --> 0:04:47.127 epiphany that busy is an addiction, freezing cold daily swims, 0:04:47.487 --> 0:04:49.967 and the decision to hang her second act from the 0:04:50.047 --> 0:04:55.007 understanding that midwomen are one of the world's great untapped resources. 0:04:55.447 --> 0:04:57.847 You can find out more about that and Eleanor's community 0:04:57.847 --> 0:05:00.047 of queen ages by clicking on the links in our 0:05:00.087 --> 0:05:03.647 show notes. But please take a deep breath, pop this 0:05:03.727 --> 0:05:07.967 conversation under your tongue and enjoy the trip. Eleanor, you 0:05:08.127 --> 0:05:10.767 are a bit of a mid icon for me. You've 0:05:10.767 --> 0:05:14.767 had an amazing career in magazines, London journalism, that sort 0:05:14.807 --> 0:05:19.447 of mixture of glamorous and hard slog that is media. 0:05:20.327 --> 0:05:22.847 And then, as you write in your book Much More 0:05:22.887 --> 0:05:26.567 to Come, you changed direction at fifty. You were made 0:05:26.607 --> 0:05:30.447 redundant and you reinvented yourself before we get into the 0:05:30.607 --> 0:05:33.487 meat of this conversation. I know there are lots of 0:05:33.527 --> 0:05:35.647 women who are listening to this of a similar age 0:05:35.647 --> 0:05:39.767 to us, who are at a career crossroads, either one 0:05:39.807 --> 0:05:42.767 that they chose or one that was chosen for them, 0:05:43.327 --> 0:05:46.287 and are worried that they are too old for the 0:05:46.287 --> 0:05:48.327 thing they've always wanted to do. So tell me a 0:05:48.327 --> 0:05:50.807 bit about that moment of everything shifting for you. 0:05:51.567 --> 0:05:54.007 Well, I think the first thing that's really crucial to say, 0:05:54.047 --> 0:05:58.287 and hello everybody from London, is that you're never too 0:05:58.367 --> 0:06:01.687 old and it's never too late to become the woman 0:06:01.767 --> 0:06:04.967 that you always wanted to be. And in fact, I 0:06:04.967 --> 0:06:07.887 would say that it's a kind of fifty plus that 0:06:07.967 --> 0:06:11.047 we really get an opportunity to start digging it into 0:06:11.487 --> 0:06:14.807 what that might be. And certainly in my own experience, 0:06:14.887 --> 0:06:18.447 I had been a journalist very kind of high up 0:06:18.487 --> 0:06:22.047 poncho on the Sunday Times for twenty five years and 0:06:22.327 --> 0:06:24.567 I was suddenly made redundant out of the blue. 0:06:24.847 --> 0:06:25.807 It was a massive shock. 0:06:25.887 --> 0:06:28.327 I'd kind of gone up there with all my files 0:06:28.407 --> 0:06:31.087 and my or my forward planning for the next few 0:06:31.087 --> 0:06:33.727 months to talk to the new editor, and I walked 0:06:33.727 --> 0:06:34.087 into the. 0:06:34.127 --> 0:06:36.567 Room, and I suddenly realized it was. 0:06:36.647 --> 0:06:41.167 That meeting tissues on the table, and it was the 0:06:41.167 --> 0:06:43.927 head of HR and the editor and they started talking 0:06:43.967 --> 0:06:45.967 about you know, and it's just one of those really 0:06:46.007 --> 0:06:48.167 surreal things, a bit like being in a car crashed, 0:06:48.327 --> 0:06:51.167 or when you are talking to someone and you realize 0:06:51.167 --> 0:06:52.887 they're trying to break up with you, or you know, 0:06:52.967 --> 0:06:55.967 with something really massive shifts in your life, or if 0:06:55.967 --> 0:06:57.167 you get a terrible diagnosis. 0:06:57.167 --> 0:06:58.287 It was a bit like that. 0:06:58.327 --> 0:07:01.527 It was really weird. Everything just stopped. I wrote about 0:07:01.527 --> 0:07:03.407 it in my book that I could hear these voices 0:07:03.487 --> 0:07:06.927 talking and all I could see was the tugboat chugging 0:07:07.047 --> 0:07:10.087 very slowly up the Thames, and these birds, kind of 0:07:10.087 --> 0:07:13.327 pigeons flying around the kind of roof of the cathedral 0:07:13.527 --> 0:07:16.127 in the middle of London. And it's a very weird 0:07:16.127 --> 0:07:18.127 thing that you suddenly feel like you're not there in 0:07:18.167 --> 0:07:22.087 your own life, and everything that I thought I was 0:07:22.247 --> 0:07:25.847 and everything that I thought my life was suddenly stopped. 0:07:26.007 --> 0:07:28.207 I was forty nine, it was just before the pandemic, 0:07:28.767 --> 0:07:31.607 and I really had that feeling of having been pushed 0:07:31.647 --> 0:07:35.167 off a roof, having no idea what I was going 0:07:35.207 --> 0:07:37.767 to do next. I'd always been the main breadwinner, so 0:07:37.807 --> 0:07:40.007 I was terrified about kind of money and my life. 0:07:39.887 --> 0:07:42.007 In that way. And I also realized that this. 0:07:42.047 --> 0:07:45.767 Incredible wave that i'd caught, this kind of journalistic wave 0:07:45.807 --> 0:07:49.007 that i'd caught as an early woman in my early twenties, 0:07:49.967 --> 0:07:52.007 the kind of twenty five years on, had come to 0:07:52.007 --> 0:07:54.327 an end, and I've been spat off it and it 0:07:54.407 --> 0:07:56.727 was like, Wow, what am I going to do next? 0:07:57.007 --> 0:08:00.167 For our Australian listeners. The Sunday Times is a very 0:08:00.167 --> 0:08:04.167 prestigious newspaper, so this is a very impressive job that 0:08:04.207 --> 0:08:06.647 I'm sure was very much part of your identity. You'd 0:08:06.687 --> 0:08:09.607 been there for such a long time. You right in 0:08:09.647 --> 0:08:13.367 your book about how not that long before that happened 0:08:13.407 --> 0:08:16.767 to you, you'd gone on a trip with a friend 0:08:16.807 --> 0:08:21.047 for a story where you did a guided psilocybin trip, 0:08:21.087 --> 0:08:24.047 a mushroom trip, and you had a vision during that 0:08:25.047 --> 0:08:27.207 for what was going to be your next stage, but 0:08:27.287 --> 0:08:30.087 at the time you didn't know that. So tell me 0:08:30.127 --> 0:08:32.287 a bit about that, the idea of Noon coming to 0:08:32.327 --> 0:08:34.847 you then, and how you didn't just go, oh, sort 0:08:34.887 --> 0:08:36.927 of dismiss it as like I was off my face, 0:08:37.087 --> 0:08:42.607 or you know, did you know immediately after the redundancy that, oh, 0:08:43.487 --> 0:08:45.047 the time for that idea has come. 0:08:45.767 --> 0:08:48.407 I think I did. I think it was very weird. 0:08:48.487 --> 0:08:52.487 I mean, life unfolds in strange ways, doesn't it. So 0:08:53.207 --> 0:08:55.447 just to rewinder it, I'm not really a kind of 0:08:55.487 --> 0:08:57.727 psychedelic psychedelic ninja. 0:08:57.927 --> 0:08:58.247 Really. 0:08:58.687 --> 0:09:01.087 I went to Jamaica to take a whole load of 0:09:01.087 --> 0:09:04.247 magic mushrooms with one of my colleagues at the Sunday 0:09:04.247 --> 0:09:07.967 Time is an incredible journalist called Decker Achenhead. If any 0:09:07.967 --> 0:09:09.567 of you want to know more about it, that she 0:09:09.887 --> 0:09:12.687 actually won the BBC's Best Article of the Year for 0:09:12.807 --> 0:09:16.927 the journalistic article that she wrote about our mushroom trip. 0:09:16.967 --> 0:09:18.807 And we went to Jamaica, where it's legal to take 0:09:18.807 --> 0:09:23.087 psilocybin magic mushrooms, and we did three heroic doses in 0:09:23.127 --> 0:09:26.927 a week. So this isn't microdosing. This is like the fault. 0:09:27.167 --> 0:09:29.807 I was feeling a bit wobbly when I read those paraclops. 0:09:29.807 --> 0:09:32.847 When I read that chapter. She went because she had 0:09:32.887 --> 0:09:33.807 really bad PTSD. 0:09:34.007 --> 0:09:36.087 Her husband had died in front of us about ten 0:09:36.167 --> 0:09:38.367 years before, and she just felt like she couldn't really 0:09:38.367 --> 0:09:41.167 feel anything. And I went with her, partly because she's 0:09:41.207 --> 0:09:44.607 my great mate. I was her editor, and I thought 0:09:44.607 --> 0:09:46.367 I had a guty of care, but I was also 0:09:47.087 --> 0:09:50.607 something very deep in me was called to go to 0:09:50.727 --> 0:09:52.327 Jamaica and take the magic mushrooms. 0:09:52.567 --> 0:09:53.487 And it's one of those things. 0:09:53.647 --> 0:09:55.847 I'm sure people listening to this will have had times 0:09:55.887 --> 0:09:59.327 where somebody suggested that you do something and it's quite 0:09:59.407 --> 0:10:02.047 out of character or not something that you would normally do, 0:10:02.327 --> 0:10:06.527 but something very deep within you just goes yes this now. 0:10:06.927 --> 0:10:09.807 And I just had this really overwhelming sense that I 0:10:09.927 --> 0:10:13.287 was supposed to go to Jamaica with her a hard life, 0:10:13.327 --> 0:10:15.287 you'd say, and go to the Caribbean and take a 0:10:15.287 --> 0:10:18.527 shedload of magic mushroom. But actually it was actually quite 0:10:18.567 --> 0:10:21.727 scary because I don't I've never really taken psychedelics. When 0:10:21.727 --> 0:10:24.367 I was younger, I'd read the Michael Poland book How 0:10:24.407 --> 0:10:26.327 to Change Your Mind, so I was interested in the 0:10:26.407 --> 0:10:29.127 science of the psychedelics and what they can dead your mind. 0:10:29.127 --> 0:10:31.367 I've always been quite interested in Timothy Leary and all 0:10:31.407 --> 0:10:34.927 of that kind of phase of psychedelic experimentation. But to 0:10:34.967 --> 0:10:38.047 actually go and do it was quite something. And I 0:10:38.127 --> 0:10:41.047 did have this incredible experience while I was there. 0:10:41.327 --> 0:10:42.967 Of just everything kind of melting. 0:10:43.007 --> 0:10:46.247 They call it ego dissolution, and it was basically as 0:10:46.287 --> 0:10:50.127 if I had dissolved into a vat of kind of 0:10:50.247 --> 0:10:52.967 yellow cream. This would be the best way to describe it. 0:10:53.047 --> 0:10:54.927 I was just flooded with the sense of kind of 0:10:54.967 --> 0:10:59.607 golden light and connection to all things, and also just 0:10:59.647 --> 0:11:02.607 suddenly everything being possible, and I almost had the sense. 0:11:02.447 --> 0:11:05.167 That I was moving into a new phase. 0:11:05.367 --> 0:11:08.927 And that I was being shown kind of shown something new, 0:11:09.007 --> 0:11:11.727 which was the power of connection and also the power 0:11:12.127 --> 0:11:14.887 of a massive shift and a change in how we 0:11:15.247 --> 0:11:17.847 thought about everything. At this point of kind of being 0:11:18.087 --> 0:11:19.927 in my being in my fiftieth year, I was there 0:11:19.927 --> 0:11:23.327 actually when I turned forty nine. It was the kind 0:11:23.327 --> 0:11:25.367 of a few months before I left the Sunday Times. 0:11:25.567 --> 0:11:28.047 So when this terrible thing happened and I was made 0:11:28.047 --> 0:11:30.727 redundant very suddenly, it's like I had this golden thread 0:11:30.767 --> 0:11:34.087 to hang on to that I'd been shown something else. 0:11:34.367 --> 0:11:36.607 And I think also a lot of us, when we've 0:11:36.607 --> 0:11:39.447 been doing something for a very long time, get quite stale, 0:11:40.047 --> 0:11:42.167 and so I don't think I would have had the 0:11:42.247 --> 0:11:45.647 courage to jump out of my big job, my big 0:11:45.687 --> 0:11:49.567 black cloak, this very massive, powerful role that had defined 0:11:49.607 --> 0:11:52.687 me for a very long time. But I also did 0:11:52.767 --> 0:11:55.367 know that I was stale and that maybe I needed 0:11:55.367 --> 0:11:57.607 to do something else in another part of my mind, 0:11:57.847 --> 0:12:00.487 so I had this very exciting sense of a new 0:12:00.567 --> 0:12:03.487 golden opening kind of coming for me really, and that 0:12:03.607 --> 0:12:08.887 I could really positively change the people kind of around 0:12:08.927 --> 0:12:11.767 me through I just said, don't know, through some kind 0:12:11.767 --> 0:12:14.407 of shift or through bringing people together, and that this 0:12:14.447 --> 0:12:16.487 is all what I really wanted to do. And then 0:12:16.527 --> 0:12:17.967 of course I went back and did my kind of 0:12:17.967 --> 0:12:20.487 normal journalistic life and then I was suddenly made redundant. 0:12:20.847 --> 0:12:22.927 But in the back of my mind was always this 0:12:23.087 --> 0:12:25.847 sense of what I've been shown in Jamaica, was this 0:12:26.087 --> 0:12:29.887 really strong sense of a kind of golden connection and a. 0:12:29.927 --> 0:12:32.487 Possibility of moving into a new act. 0:12:32.847 --> 0:12:35.247 It was really really powerful, and I felt that I'd 0:12:35.327 --> 0:12:37.687 been shown that somehow as a guiding. 0:12:37.367 --> 0:12:39.207 Light through what was to come. 0:12:39.487 --> 0:12:42.247 Do you think I've heard you say that you know 0:12:42.367 --> 0:12:45.527 this is at this sort of transitional point, particularly if 0:12:45.527 --> 0:12:49.007 for transition that was already happening, then was kind of 0:12:49.007 --> 0:12:52.567 given a shove for you that this is a really 0:12:52.607 --> 0:12:55.287 important time for women of our age to go what 0:12:55.447 --> 0:12:59.767 is it that I really want? And you. Yes, it 0:12:59.887 --> 0:13:04.127 sounds like in your story the part of your job 0:13:04.167 --> 0:13:09.047 that you particularly loved helping people building connection, you know, 0:13:10.447 --> 0:13:12.887 perhaps building community. I don't want to speak for you, 0:13:12.967 --> 0:13:16.607 but when you were asking yourself that question, those things 0:13:16.607 --> 0:13:20.327 were clear. Do you have any wisdom about how people 0:13:20.367 --> 0:13:23.127 can answer that question for themselves though, if they are feeling, 0:13:23.127 --> 0:13:25.407 as you say, stale and like I've always done this, 0:13:25.527 --> 0:13:27.367 or I have to always do this, or I've got 0:13:27.367 --> 0:13:30.607 the responsibility of earning the money or having the job 0:13:30.647 --> 0:13:32.727 that allows my partner to go out and do his job, 0:13:32.807 --> 0:13:35.567 or whatever it might be. How do you think you 0:13:35.647 --> 0:13:40.167 can tap into that question of what do I really want? 0:13:41.047 --> 0:13:44.407 I think a lot of women don't even allow themselves 0:13:44.607 --> 0:13:47.207 to ask it. I remember going to see a ratherwise 0:13:47.247 --> 0:13:50.167 teacher and she said, no, she said to me, really 0:13:50.567 --> 0:13:53.927 is a good exercise for your ladies queen ages as 0:13:53.967 --> 0:13:57.807 I call them queen agers. I would suggest line a 0:13:57.887 --> 0:14:00.087 bath or wherever it is that you feel kind of 0:14:01.127 --> 0:14:03.287 happy and relaxed, maybe on your sofa or on your 0:14:03.327 --> 0:14:07.607 sundown jeting with it in summer in Australia, ild it 0:14:08.167 --> 0:14:14.047 and really ask yourself what it is. If you kind 0:14:14.047 --> 0:14:16.527 of really tune into kind of into your heart and 0:14:16.647 --> 0:14:20.407 ask yourself, really, what is it that you truly want? 0:14:20.767 --> 0:14:22.407 And it's very funny when you try and do that 0:14:22.447 --> 0:14:24.207 As a woman. I found when I was. 0:14:24.367 --> 0:14:26.327 Laid there trying to think about what I really wanted, 0:14:26.927 --> 0:14:30.567 my brain cut in. Before I'd even been able to 0:14:30.727 --> 0:14:34.367 articulate what it was that I might actually truly want. 0:14:34.727 --> 0:14:36.647 My my brain had kind of cut in to go, 0:14:37.047 --> 0:14:39.327 that's ridiculous. Shut up, don't be you know, don't be 0:14:39.407 --> 0:14:40.607 don't be proposed. 0:14:40.407 --> 0:14:45.847 Be selfish, greedy, Yeah, don't be really, don't don't be unrealistic. 0:14:45.927 --> 0:14:48.047 And I think that women are very good at not 0:14:48.327 --> 0:14:53.247 allowing themselves to dream big or to even tap into 0:14:53.647 --> 0:14:58.127 what that desire might be or might kind of even 0:14:58.207 --> 0:15:00.887 look like in their wildest dreams. And I think you're 0:15:00.927 --> 0:15:03.847 never going to get to that place of kind of 0:15:04.367 --> 0:15:07.087 not just success in a kind of world achievement sense, 0:15:07.127 --> 0:15:10.647 but more kind of fulfillment be on your wildest dreams 0:15:10.967 --> 0:15:14.247 if you won't even allow yourself to contemplate what that 0:15:14.327 --> 0:15:17.207 might be. So I think the first thing is that 0:15:17.407 --> 0:15:21.487 really kind of sinking deep into yourself and really asking 0:15:21.527 --> 0:15:25.007 yourself and being prepared to listen to the answer of 0:15:25.087 --> 0:15:28.487 what it is that you really want. And I think 0:15:28.527 --> 0:15:32.407 that we're so conditioned to think about what everybody else 0:15:32.487 --> 0:15:36.487 wants or what everybody else wants from us, that we 0:15:36.647 --> 0:15:41.207 don't even begin to allow ourselves to articulate what that 0:15:41.447 --> 0:15:44.527 precious special thing might be that we might do with 0:15:44.607 --> 0:15:48.007 our one, wild and precious life and ask ourselves that question. 0:15:48.607 --> 0:15:49.767 It's quite a scary one. 0:15:49.807 --> 0:15:52.367 So I write in my book about I think what 0:15:52.647 --> 0:15:54.087 I talk about is the capacity to. 0:15:54.167 --> 0:15:56.687 Shape shift at this point in life. 0:15:56.767 --> 0:15:59.007 And I think that for a lot of women, there 0:15:59.007 --> 0:16:02.527 are so many expectations, particularly of our age, about what 0:16:02.567 --> 0:16:05.127 we were supposed to do or what kind of good 0:16:05.167 --> 0:16:09.527 look like, that we've never actually allowed ourselves to kind 0:16:09.527 --> 0:16:12.567 of form our own organic shape. So like if you 0:16:12.567 --> 0:16:14.527 were kind of pouring some kind of wax or something 0:16:14.567 --> 0:16:16.687 into a mold and you were going to let it, 0:16:16.887 --> 0:16:20.207 let it completely settle into what it wanted to become, 0:16:20.367 --> 0:16:23.127 you know, essence of essence of you, kind of essence 0:16:23.167 --> 0:16:25.647 of holy essence of Eleanor. And I think men are 0:16:25.727 --> 0:16:27.967 much more allowed to kind of flow into whatever that's 0:16:28.127 --> 0:16:31.487 allowed to be, whereas women are kind of flow into 0:16:31.527 --> 0:16:35.287 a preordained shape, the shape that's useful for everybody around them, 0:16:35.607 --> 0:16:38.967 that fits society that I think for they're certainly from 0:16:38.967 --> 0:16:39.687 that bit from kind of. 0:16:39.687 --> 0:16:40.807 Twenty five to fifty. 0:16:41.087 --> 0:16:43.887 Women are often ticking the boxes that other people have 0:16:44.007 --> 0:16:46.607 given them, all the things that we were supposed to do, 0:16:46.727 --> 0:16:48.647 you know, be a good wife, a good mother, a 0:16:48.687 --> 0:16:52.487 good a good daughter, a good employee. You know, we're 0:16:52.527 --> 0:16:54.247 trying to be kind of good and fit into all 0:16:54.247 --> 0:16:56.847 the things that society is telling us we're supposed to do. 0:16:57.447 --> 0:16:59.767 And I don't think we're ever really encouraged to ask 0:16:59.847 --> 0:17:03.767 ourselves what is it that we really want? You know, 0:17:03.807 --> 0:17:06.967 what I want what really matters. And I had this 0:17:07.167 --> 0:17:11.727 very long journal career, which you know, which I really 0:17:11.727 --> 0:17:13.807 loved in lots of ways. But I also think that 0:17:14.247 --> 0:17:16.487 what kept me going from a very long time was 0:17:16.807 --> 0:17:21.407 a really huge parental expectation of achievement. That what had 0:17:21.447 --> 0:17:24.967 set me up kind of from my family constellation was 0:17:25.527 --> 0:17:28.767 this sense that achievement was all that was kind of 0:17:28.807 --> 0:17:32.167 valued or mattered, and so that that was kind of 0:17:32.207 --> 0:17:35.087 what I became. Whereas I think if I really truly 0:17:35.647 --> 0:17:37.687 asked myself what I would have become, I probably would 0:17:37.687 --> 0:17:40.847 have been called to this kind of work of community, 0:17:40.927 --> 0:17:43.927 building of thought, leadership, of kind of setting off in 0:17:43.967 --> 0:17:47.367 a slightly more radical direction earlier on in life. That 0:17:47.447 --> 0:17:49.927 it's taken me really till I was fifty to have 0:17:50.007 --> 0:17:53.287 the confidence to really walk my own path rather than 0:17:53.287 --> 0:17:55.167 a path that had been laid down for me. 0:17:58.047 --> 0:18:00.127 I'm going to be back with more from Eleanor Mills 0:18:00.207 --> 0:18:07.567 right after this quick break. You have built a community 0:18:07.687 --> 0:18:10.767 called Noon of your ages, as you call them, which 0:18:10.767 --> 0:18:14.687 is us wonderful women in midlife. I've heard you say too, 0:18:15.967 --> 0:18:18.567 to follow on from what we were just talking about, 0:18:18.847 --> 0:18:21.487 that you feel like this age and reclaiming it is 0:18:21.487 --> 0:18:27.407 almost the last frontier of feminism because the patriarchy kind 0:18:27.447 --> 0:18:29.527 of has no use for us anymore in a way, 0:18:30.287 --> 0:18:33.447 and so we're free to draw our own maps, is 0:18:33.447 --> 0:18:37.327 how I've heard you describe it. What do those maps 0:18:37.367 --> 0:18:37.887 look like? 0:18:38.327 --> 0:18:44.047 Yes, yeah, okay, So I would say that patriarchy, which 0:18:44.087 --> 0:18:45.967 is basically the and that this is not to kind 0:18:45.967 --> 0:18:48.407 of slag off kind of all individual men, many of 0:18:48.447 --> 0:18:51.607 whom are lovely, but patriarchy is the system which has 0:18:51.967 --> 0:18:54.567 definitely kind of groomed us, if you like, kind of 0:18:55.087 --> 0:18:58.207 programmed us to women to behave in certain ways and 0:18:58.247 --> 0:19:01.567 We've been living within patriarchy for you know, several thousand years, 0:19:01.847 --> 0:19:07.567 and basically what patriarchy values women for is being you know, young. Second. 0:19:09.327 --> 0:19:12.167 I won't swear on your podcast, but I'm kind of 0:19:12.167 --> 0:19:16.887 basically fertile. Second, kind of young attractive to you know, 0:19:16.967 --> 0:19:19.407 a male mate. So when you get to a point 0:19:19.407 --> 0:19:24.047 where you're kind of fifty and your biology means that 0:19:24.127 --> 0:19:27.127 you're not having babies anymore, and when certainly not looking 0:19:27.167 --> 0:19:29.727 like the kind of youthful ideal that's on every billboard 0:19:29.767 --> 0:19:33.327 within our culture, basically patriarchy doesn't really feel like it's 0:19:33.367 --> 0:19:34.647 got much use for us anymore. 0:19:34.847 --> 0:19:37.407 Maybe we're a bit useful as Grandma's. 0:19:37.087 --> 0:19:38.407 Still a bit of caring left in the. 0:19:39.047 --> 0:19:40.407 Still a bit of useful care and left in us. 0:19:40.447 --> 0:19:43.847 But the reality is that thirty percent of women my 0:19:43.967 --> 0:19:47.687 queen ages certainly here in the UK are child free, 0:19:48.087 --> 0:19:50.487 and about forty percent of those who don't have kids 0:19:50.687 --> 0:19:54.287 have actively chosen not to have children. So that's quite 0:19:54.327 --> 0:19:58.127 a big cohort of our generation. So if the only 0:19:58.207 --> 0:20:00.407 definition of possibility of what you are as you get 0:20:00.407 --> 0:20:02.567 older is being a granny and about a third of 0:20:02.607 --> 0:20:03.247 women don't have. 0:20:03.287 --> 0:20:06.247 Children, that's a huge number of queen. 0:20:05.967 --> 0:20:08.407 Agers who don't fit into the kind of you know, 0:20:08.647 --> 0:20:11.487 the what my society might see as a norm. I 0:20:11.527 --> 0:20:13.247 wouldn't say it's a normal. I think it's almost as 0:20:13.247 --> 0:20:16.127 normal now not to have kids. So what I'm interested 0:20:16.167 --> 0:20:18.287 in is that we're talking about this map. There's this 0:20:18.407 --> 0:20:21.967 sense that the current paradigm about what women in midlife 0:20:21.967 --> 0:20:25.287 are four is massively norm fit for purpose, and kind of. 0:20:25.247 --> 0:20:26.167 Out of days. 0:20:26.647 --> 0:20:29.567 And when I talk about creating a new map, I 0:20:29.767 --> 0:20:32.047 think what we're trying to do is to create new 0:20:32.087 --> 0:20:35.607 signposts and a new map, a sense of what this 0:20:35.687 --> 0:20:38.527 bit from fifty to seventy five or you know, we're 0:20:38.567 --> 0:20:40.247 quite a lot of us likely to live into our 0:20:40.287 --> 0:20:41.527 nineties or till we're one hundred. 0:20:41.807 --> 0:20:44.367 What does that next half of our life look like. 0:20:44.767 --> 0:20:47.087 I called my community noon as in the middle of 0:20:47.087 --> 0:20:49.727 the day, because in the one hundred year life, fifty 0:20:49.767 --> 0:20:51.047 is only halfway through. 0:20:51.327 --> 0:20:53.247 It's like we're only at lunchtime. We've got the whole 0:20:53.287 --> 0:20:55.127 of the afternoon in the evening to come. 0:20:55.207 --> 0:20:55.367 You know. 0:20:55.367 --> 0:20:57.567 It's partly why I called my book much More to Come. 0:20:57.807 --> 0:20:59.927 So I just think we need to reframe this bit 0:20:59.927 --> 0:21:03.967 of our life, and for me, the possibility of the possibility, 0:21:04.007 --> 0:21:05.687 and I've actually shown it in what I've done myself, 0:21:05.727 --> 0:21:09.367 is that at fifty we can massively pivot, reinvent, and 0:21:10.047 --> 0:21:12.847 become something different. And actually, if we're going to live 0:21:12.847 --> 0:21:15.767 that long, it's preposterous to think that you would start 0:21:15.767 --> 0:21:18.687