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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waterers.

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Speaker 2: This podcast was recorded on Hey, I'm Jemma Bath, host

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Speaker 2: of true Crime Conversations and did you know that the

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Speaker 2: team at Mamma Mia is bringing you over one hundred

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Speaker 2: hours of the best content from your award winning podcasts

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Speaker 2: for the Hot Pod Summer of your Dreams. Well, we

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Speaker 2: are here at two Crime Conversations. We've handpicked some of

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Speaker 2: the most chilling and thought provoking episodes from our feed,

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Speaker 2: including gripping cult stories, powerful interviews with crime victims, and

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Speaker 2: in depth accounts from women who have been incarcerated sharing

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Speaker 2: the journeys that led them to that place.

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Speaker 3: And that's just the beginning.

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Speaker 2: Today, I'm bringing you the story of Cassie Sainsbury from

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Speaker 2: No Filter, another amazing podcast on the Muma Mea network

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Speaker 2: hosted by Mia Friedman. In this episode, Mia chats with Cassie,

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Speaker 2: who for years was branded by the media as Cocaine Cassie.

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Speaker 2: Here she talks about prison life, the abuse, the relationships,

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Speaker 2: thee and what happened afterwards. Here's the original episode.

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Speaker 3: Take a listen.

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Speaker 1: From Mum and Me I'm mea Friedman and you're listening

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Speaker 1: to No Filter. My favorite interviews to do on this

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Speaker 1: show when I go in thinking that I know someone,

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Speaker 1: I've got a sense of them by what I've seen

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Speaker 1: or what I've read, and then after the interview, I

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Speaker 1: come away with a totally different idea. That's the kind

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Speaker 1: of interview you can hear today. The name Cassie Sainsbury

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Speaker 1: probably doesn't mean anything to you, but if I said

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Speaker 1: cocaine Cassie instantly, I bet you'd have an image and

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Speaker 1: an idea in your head. Here are the facts in

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Speaker 1: case you've forgotten them, because I kind of had. Cassie

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Speaker 1: Sainsbury was caught with almost six kilograms of cocaine in

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Speaker 1: a Colombian airport in twenty seventeen. It was concealed inside

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Speaker 1: eighteen headphone boxes and the media went nuts. They were

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Speaker 1: so so excited about this story. You knew you were

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Speaker 1: being asked to deliver cocaine. Finally you've admitted I knew.

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Speaker 3: It was in it.

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Speaker 1: I feared for my life some massive organized crime enterprise.

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Speaker 1: It's huge because the last time a pretty young white

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Speaker 1: Australian woman was caught smuggling drugs, her name was Chappelle Corby.

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Speaker 1: It was back in two thousand and four, and she

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Speaker 1: spent ten years in a Ballei jail and was responsible

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Speaker 1: for countless interviews and stories and a huge amount of

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Speaker 1: media coverage and public interest. She'd been released ten years later.

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Speaker 1: Just three years before, Cassie was caught with drugs, so

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Speaker 1: the narrative was written instantly. Silly young girl serves a right.

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Speaker 1: Whyant earth did she think she could get away with it?

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Speaker 1: Cassie pleaded guilty. She was sentenced to six years in

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Speaker 1: a notoriously rough women's prison in Colombia, and the conditions

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Speaker 1: were pretty shocking. This interview is about what happened to

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Speaker 1: Cassie in jail and what happened afterwards. She went into

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Speaker 1: prison engaged to a man. That relationship ended and she

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Speaker 1: got engaged to a woman. She was stabbed, beaten and threatened.

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Speaker 1: She spoke not a word of Spanish. She made enemies

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Speaker 1: and friends, and she fell in and out of love.

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Speaker 1: She was terrified and defiant and determined and incredibly smart.

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Speaker 1: Her resilience was next level, and three years later she

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Speaker 1: was released into a completely different life which she has embraced.

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Speaker 1: Put your expectations and your preconceptions aside and enjoy this

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Speaker 1: conversation with Cassie Sainsbury. Cassie, do you remember, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you do, your first night in prison.

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Speaker 3: I do remember that that was horrendous night. I think

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Speaker 3: it was actually quite daunting going into prison to start

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Speaker 3: off with, and obviously already knowing that I was looking

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Speaker 3: at a thirty year sentence and I looked in there,

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Speaker 3: and I'm looking at the people and I'm thinking, why

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Speaker 3: do they look so comfortable? Like you would see women

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Speaker 3: who look like they were having the time of their life.

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Speaker 3: And then I'd see like women walking around with babies,

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Speaker 3: and I was like, what is going on here? And

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Speaker 3: obviously later I found out that there are women who

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Speaker 3: were pregnant in prison actually give birth there and the

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Speaker 3: baby will stay with them until they're probably three or

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Speaker 3: four years old. Oh wow, which is be hard on

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Speaker 3: a child to grow up in those circumstances, considering they're

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Speaker 3: basically paying a sentence with their mum without even realizing it.

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Speaker 1: When you were arrested at the airport, how long were

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Speaker 1: you at the airport? Four?

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Speaker 3: I was arrested and immediately I was taken from the

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Speaker 3: airport and in budal To an anti narcotics center which

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Speaker 3: is basically off of the airport, which I stayed there

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Speaker 3: for forty eight hours, which in that time I was

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Speaker 3: given my accusation hearing, and then from there I was

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Speaker 3: taken to a men's retention center.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness.

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Speaker 3: If I thought, you know, it wasn't scary enough.

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Speaker 1: That was.

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Speaker 3: No words, no words. It was just quite daunting being

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Speaker 3: there and being the only woman.

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Speaker 1: Were you safe there? Like how many men were around?

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Speaker 3: There were at least one hundred men. There were moments

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Speaker 3: that it was quite questionable whether I was actually safe

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Speaker 3: to be there or not, considering I didn't speak the

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Speaker 3: language yet. In this area because it's basically underground, this

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Speaker 3: retention center, police don't care. They actually help the other

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Speaker 3: people that are there get drugs, smokes marijuana, and so

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Speaker 3: they are smoking. And I have quite severi asthma and

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Speaker 3: I just had an asthma attack, and the police were

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Speaker 3: basically saying that they wouldn't help me unless I paid

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Speaker 3: for help.

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Speaker 1: In the movies, in on TV, when someone's arrested, they're

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Speaker 1: allowed one phone call. When you're arrested and you're at

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Speaker 1: the airport, I assume they took your phone away? Were

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Speaker 1: you allowed to contact anyone?

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Speaker 3: I was quite lucky that one of the police officers

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Speaker 3: who were looking after me, I think he kind of

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Speaker 3: had a bit of a soft spot for me, and

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Speaker 3: he actually let me use his phone and his face

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Speaker 3: walked to get in contact with my mum, And obviously

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Speaker 3: at that time, my nanna actually replied saying, you know

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Speaker 3: what a sick joke you're playing? When I was why

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Speaker 3: would you say that you're dapping Columbia and they're thinking,

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Speaker 3: are you kidding me? Why would it occur to someone

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Speaker 3: to even make up a joke about something like that.

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Speaker 3: But basically, when I did ask to have a phone call,

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Speaker 3: I was told no. When I was arrested, I was

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Speaker 3: told that I'd have a lawyer and the translator come

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Speaker 3: and help me through. I guess the first lot of

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Speaker 3: paperwork never showed up either. I was told that I

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Speaker 3: had to sign a bunch of paperwork that I had

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Speaker 3: no idea what it said. And then basically, yeah, then

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Speaker 3: I was just shipped off wherever I was saying, where.

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Speaker 1: Did your family think that you were?

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Speaker 3: My sister knew I was in Columbia, but at that

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Speaker 3: time I did not have a relationship with my mom

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Speaker 3: or my dad. Really, I was quiet out on my own.

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Speaker 3: I've always had my differences with my mom.

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Speaker 1: Did your sister or any of your friends know what

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Speaker 1: you were doing in Colombia?

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, No one knew.

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Speaker 1: So there was a lot of gaps to fill in.

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Speaker 1: I imagine once you started to talk to people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So I remember when I spoke to my

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Speaker 3: sister and my mom, and you know, they were like,

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Speaker 3: what happened? And I just said, you know, there was

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Speaker 3: a hop of drugs found in headphones. And this is

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Speaker 3: where I medituated that I had bought headphones as wedding

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Speaker 3: gifts and that you know, the drug was inside of them.

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Speaker 3: But the thing is, I never said I'd bought them

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Speaker 3: as wedding gifts. I don't know if maybe they were

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Speaker 3: trying to put some pieces together. And when my mum

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Speaker 3: and sister actually came to see me in jail of

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Speaker 3: the first time, they basically said, look, we know there's

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Speaker 3: lots of things you're not telling us. When you're ready,

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Speaker 3: you can tell us when not going to force you.

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Speaker 3: It's obviously something that has a lot more detail to

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Speaker 3: it than anybody's capable of understanding in these moments. It

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Speaker 3: was nice to feel that they were giving me that

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Speaker 3: trust to obviously open up when I was ready and

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Speaker 3: I had processed everything. But in the meantime, everyone else

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Speaker 3: was kind of starting to form their own versions of

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Speaker 3: what happened, and I had no way of, I guess,

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Speaker 3: coming out and saying, well, no, guys, that's wrong, because

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Speaker 3: the only times I had a chance to even speak

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Speaker 3: out it was never on my turns. It was always edited,

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Speaker 3: it was always I guess, tried to make it sound

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Speaker 3: more interesting.

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Speaker 1: When did you become aware of the nickname Cocaine Cassie.

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Speaker 3: I don't know when I became aware of it. I

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Speaker 3: think it might have been when my mom told me

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Speaker 3: that's what they were saying, because at the start it

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Speaker 3: wasn't Cocaine Cassie. I think people are still quite unsure

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Speaker 3: of I guess how things had gone down, and maybe

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Speaker 3: reserving that judgment until they were like, yeah, no, she's guilty.

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Speaker 3: But when she did tell me, I obviously I didn't

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Speaker 3: like the name, but it just went hands in hand

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Speaker 3: with what that happened. Like even until today, I don't

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Speaker 3: like the name, and obviously it's such a defining name

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Speaker 3: if you hear you go on, yeah, she had something

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Speaker 3: to do with drugs. At the end of the day,

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Speaker 3: I've kind of just accepted the name without letting it

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Speaker 3: affect me anymore. Working through the ropes process, I guess

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Speaker 3: to try and change that perception that I have. It's

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Speaker 3: not easy, but I mean, even if it's one person

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Speaker 3: out of a hundred that I managed to show the

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Speaker 3: real me, it's just worth it because I'm not a

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Speaker 3: bad person. Then you know, I did make a really

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Speaker 3: bad mistake, but I'm trying to I get show people

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Speaker 3: that one month's take doesn't define you.

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Speaker 1: It's funny. I've watched interviews with you before in like

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Speaker 1: over the years, and when you've been asked about that,

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Speaker 1: about the cocaine Cassie thing, You've had different reactions at

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Speaker 1: different times, Like you've been irritated, you've been angry, you've

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Speaker 1: been mortified, and now there's like a lightness about you.

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Speaker 1: It's like you've kind of accepted it and you're laughing

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Speaker 1: at it because it doesn't sting like it used to.

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Speaker 1: Is that why?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I think so. When I think probably the Firbs

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Speaker 3: year year and a half, well probably yeah, a year

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Speaker 3: and a half of my journey through all this, I

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Speaker 3: was so angry, so angry with who, with myself, with

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Speaker 3: the other people that were involved, I guess as well

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Speaker 3: with the justice system. Like I was just angry at

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Speaker 3: everyone and anyone. And I had lots of differences with

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Speaker 3: my mum, with my boyfriend, with my lawyer, and I

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Speaker 3: was just constantly angry. In any of the first interviews

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Speaker 3: or when I was on camera and I just looked

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Speaker 3: in the face, it was because I was so angry. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And I remember walking into my first hearing and when

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Speaker 3: I saw that it was full of media, I was like, why, why,

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Speaker 3: why would you even try and get the medium bowl?

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Speaker 3: Like why? That was the only thing that was going

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Speaker 3: through my head. And a lot of the deals that

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Speaker 3: were taking place, I was kind of just thrown in

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Speaker 3: the deep beats, like there was no benefit out of it.

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Speaker 3: For me. It was purely, well, you've got to do

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Speaker 3: this interview and doesn't matter the circumstances, just do it.

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Speaker 1: But who was doing those deals?

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Speaker 3: My mum was pretty much behind a lot of those feels.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Ah, So that's when people come out of the

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Speaker 1: woodwork and suddenly start seeing the opportunity. Did you know

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously you're old enough to have lived through

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Speaker 1: the Chappelle Corby story.

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Speaker 3: I can't actually remember when it all happened, but obviously

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Speaker 3: I had heard little bits and pieces about it. Because

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Speaker 3: I've never been much into watching news or anything. I

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Speaker 3: don't know why. It's just never been something that I've enjoyed. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: after being arrested, that's all I would hear is a

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Speaker 3: comparison between her and myself, and I think obviously in

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Speaker 3: that moment, you feel what that other person would have

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Speaker 3: felt in those moments too, because whether you know you

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Speaker 3: did it or you didn't do it, you've got the

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Speaker 3: whole world that's coming down on you. You're physically finishing

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Speaker 3: a sentence that you have no human rights, you have nothing,

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Speaker 3: and then when you get out, you've got a whole

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Speaker 3: another journey waiting for you. Wear The society is very unforgiving.

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Speaker 3: It's very difficult, I think, as someone who has done

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Speaker 3: time to find their feet, because we become so accustomed

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Speaker 3: to a routine and to I guess a treatment that

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Speaker 3: we received that you kind of don't want to be

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Speaker 3: around anyone, and you don't want anyone coming close, so

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Speaker 3: you don't want to talk to anyone because you can't

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Speaker 3: talk to anyone in dale because you don't know what

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Speaker 3: be used against you.

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Speaker 1: So back to your when you arrived there, what are

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Speaker 1: the conditions like in the jail you were sent to?

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Speaker 1: And is that where you spent your whole sentence.

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Speaker 3: I was moved around quite a bit. I think I

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Speaker 3: had a personal living tour of the dale. What anyone.

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Speaker 3: I was taken to Yard one when I arrived, which

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Speaker 3: is basically bat then was where all the newcomers would go,

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Speaker 3: and then they would be sorted into different yards, determined

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Speaker 3: through the crime that they committed. So you could say

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Speaker 3: it's organized. It used to be organized better said basically,

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Speaker 3: they would try and keep foreigners and not so much

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Speaker 3: life threatening people together and then obviously you've got your

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Speaker 3: people that were quite dangerous and then consumers minor offenses.

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Speaker 3: They did try and split it up, I guess, but

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Speaker 3: they also judged on the appearance of yourself, so you

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Speaker 3: were quite I guess rude, aggressive didn't go well with

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Speaker 3: the sorry you were already going to a bad yard,

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Speaker 3: and I guess at the time that organization was good.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't always like that. So from Yard one I

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Speaker 3: was sent to yard five, which is supposedly the safest

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Speaker 3: yard in the jail, which was actually where I had

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Speaker 3: most of my runnings with people, which is also where

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Speaker 3: the photos were leaked.

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Speaker 1: From what photos were leaked, it would.

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Speaker 3: Have been in May twenty seventeen. A photo was leaked

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Speaker 3: where I was next to two girls and I was smiling.

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Speaker 3: I think it was showing how gullible I really really was.

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Speaker 3: Because one of the girls, her name was Julie. She

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Speaker 3: came to look for me and she's like, no, we

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Speaker 3: know that you don't have much clothing at the moment,

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Speaker 3: so we want to give you some so we have

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Speaker 3: something to change in. And at that time was like,

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Speaker 3: do I really smell that bad? Or She lived on

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Speaker 3: the fourth floor, and when I went in, there was

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Speaker 3: another girl there and they pulled out this bag of

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Speaker 3: clothes and they're like, you should try that on, see

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Speaker 3: what you like. Take it. And when I turned around,

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Speaker 3: they had a phone, and in my head I was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: we have phones in jail now, like I hadn't seen

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Speaker 3: one yet, and they're just like, oh, it's her birthday.

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Speaker 3: Can we get a photo with you? I thought, what's weet?

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Speaker 3: But all right, sat down, took a photo with them.

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Speaker 3: Next minute, it's all prey with the media that I

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Speaker 3: was having the time of my life in jail. It

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Speaker 3: was on the weekend, so on the weekends there's visitors

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Speaker 3: that come in and out. And while the visitors were

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Speaker 3: lining up outside, the media had actually convinced some of

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Speaker 3: the families to get photos and they would pay for photos.

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Speaker 3: Actually this was obviously quiet when it was all very

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Speaker 3: fresh still, and they were actually paying guards to try

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Speaker 3: and get footage of me inside. And one of the

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Speaker 3: guards got caught and was fired on the fox. So

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Speaker 3: Australian media, I did a good job.

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Speaker 1: Were there are other phonners there? When you were put

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Speaker 1: into yard one?

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Speaker 3: There were actually a lot from Mexico, Italy, Germany, but

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Speaker 3: there weren't many English speaking people.

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Speaker 1: Who did you gravitate towards because is the instinct. I've

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Speaker 1: got to find some people, I've got to make some alliances.

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Speaker 3: I was always quite lucky that I was always drawn

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Speaker 3: to like a mother figure. So when I got to

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Speaker 3: Yard five, the lady that I happened to be living

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Speaker 3: with in the cell, she took me on straight away

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Speaker 3: and she was like, you know, she gave me home

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Speaker 3: of I guess personal products yodaans so because you don't

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Speaker 3: get given any of this stuff. And when I was

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Speaker 3: moved to a different yarn, also another lady kind of

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Speaker 3: took me on as a mother figure and she was

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Speaker 3: trying to, I guess, show me the ways of not

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Speaker 3: trusting people, because didn't matter what yard I was in,

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Speaker 3: something would always happen. So in yard seven, where it

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Speaker 3: was maximum security, which I was moved to after I

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Speaker 3: had obviously been threatened the photos were released, someone stole

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Speaker 3: money from me. In the cell. We were actually in isolation,

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Speaker 3: so each person was basically insolitary in this yard. And

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Speaker 3: they would say you can pay to either get a

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Speaker 3: radio in if you want, you can get a TV

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Speaker 3: in purely so you don't go insane. I thought, oh,

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Speaker 3: I don't know how to do that because I haven't

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Speaker 3: got anyone in Columbia to actually go and buy these things.

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Speaker 3: And there happened to be one lady who spoke English.

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Speaker 3: She used to live in Spain. She was from Venezuela,

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Speaker 3: and she's like, oh, I've got someone who can help

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Speaker 3: you outside. You just need to transfer this to this account.

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Speaker 3: And who fell in the trap this person did, so

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Speaker 3: I think it wasn't a lot, but it was obviously

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Speaker 3: just that insteat of I can't trust anyone.

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Speaker 1: I was going to ask, what you learned about trust?

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Speaker 3: Oh, it's actually really funny because I should probably be

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Speaker 3: the person who did not trust them absolutely anyone af

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Speaker 3: sure that's happened to me. But if anything, it's actually

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Speaker 3: taught me to analyze the person really well, because I

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Speaker 3: might be talking to my wife and I'll be like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: this person, Nah, I don't think so this person is

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Speaker 3: going to do this, and without fail, I'm always right.

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Speaker 3: So it taught me not so much not to trust people,

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Speaker 3: but just to analyze them really well. I mean, in prison,

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Speaker 3: people just look out for themselves. And it took me

333
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Speaker 3: a long time to get that through my head because

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Speaker 3: I having been surrounded by people I guess that were

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Speaker 3: well off.

336
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Speaker 1: So when you say people who were well off, do

337
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Speaker 1: you mean there were other prisoners who were well off.

338
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Speaker 3: Yes, if you have money and you're in that dal

339
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Speaker 3: or you can have whatever you want, like what. So

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Speaker 3: I remember there's one girl. I did not get along

341
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Speaker 3: with her at all purely because of the way she

342
00:20:39,382 --> 00:20:43,702
Speaker 3: would treat people. She's very rich and she actually paid

343
00:20:43,782 --> 00:20:48,462
Speaker 3: to get transferred to this yeah, the high security. Yeah,

344
00:20:48,982 --> 00:20:51,382
Speaker 3: because she wanted to live on her own. She wanted

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Speaker 3: to have all the phone she could get. She wanted

346
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Speaker 3: to enter in clothing, entering, food, everything, and the guards

347
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Speaker 3: would basically obey her. So she would pay the guards

348
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Speaker 3: and they would enter in whatever she wanted.

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Speaker 1: What was she in jail for.

350
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Speaker 3: She was in dere because her her ex husband wanted

351
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Speaker 3: a divorce, and so she then killed her ex husband,

352
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Speaker 3: then killed her sister in law, killed the lawyer and

353
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Speaker 3: the judge.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god.

355
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Speaker 3: Yeah, she's an interesting person and we had a lot

356
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Speaker 3: of difference.

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Speaker 1: The thing, Cassie, how do you have differences with someone

358
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Speaker 1: who's killed lots of people? That doesn't seem sensible.

359
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Speaker 3: I think is because she thought she was better than everyone.

360
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Speaker 3: And I think going into a place like this, you

361
00:21:42,222 --> 00:21:45,822
Speaker 3: have to forget about social status, You have to forget

362
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Speaker 3: about everything. You are exactly the same as everyone, because

363
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Speaker 3: it doesn't matter what you've done. You've done something illegal

364
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Speaker 3: and you're there for a reason. So I got alone

365
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Speaker 3: with quite a two people, and you know, I would

366
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Speaker 3: actually train them. We do lunders what. It was a

367
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Speaker 3: good distraction for me, So I would actually train a

368
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Speaker 3: couple of girls, and and then it was Sophie, and

369
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Speaker 3: Sophia's come up to me. She goes, I'll pay you

370
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Speaker 3: triple what they're paying you if you train me. And

371
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Speaker 3: I've kind of looked at Hannah, God, I don't need

372
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Speaker 3: your money because I'm not asking for money from anyone

373
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Speaker 3: to train them. And I said, that's what you do

374
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Speaker 3: when you want to actually hang out with people and

375
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Speaker 3: be a decent person. And from there it was just

376
00:22:33,502 --> 00:22:38,462
Speaker 3: an instant clash because she thought if she had money

377
00:22:38,542 --> 00:22:40,982
Speaker 3: and she threw money at someone that they would basically

378
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Speaker 3: bow her feet and I wouldn't do it. So it's

379
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Speaker 3: from there we just had lots of differences from there,

380
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Speaker 3: and she actually managed to get me removed from the yard.

381
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Speaker 3: She paid to get me removed.

382
00:22:54,622 --> 00:22:56,822
Speaker 1: When you say differences, did she try to kill you?

383
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Speaker 3: No? No, no she didn't. She didn't try to kill me,

384
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Speaker 3: but she did make it clear that she has like

385
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Speaker 3: a seventy year sentence and an extra body on it

386
00:23:05,582 --> 00:23:06,182
Speaker 3: didn't matter.

387
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Speaker 1: So wow, in terms of violence and the women that

388
00:23:11,902 --> 00:23:15,982
Speaker 1: you were with, was there a hierarchy in terms of

389
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Speaker 1: what women thought about the crimes of their fellow inmates, Like,

390
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Speaker 1: was there a particularly heinous crime or was it just like,

391
00:23:23,822 --> 00:23:27,102
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if you're in here for robbery, drug smuggling,

392
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Speaker 1: or murder. Everyone has a blank slate when they get

393
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Speaker 1: to prison.

394
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Speaker 3: Okay, So the only crime that was kind of really

395
00:23:37,542 --> 00:23:44,342
Speaker 3: separated was any kind of child related crime. They couldn't

396
00:23:44,382 --> 00:23:49,062
Speaker 3: even be close to any other inmates, purely because a

397
00:23:49,102 --> 00:23:51,262
Speaker 3: lot of the women that are in there actually have kids,

398
00:23:52,022 --> 00:23:54,022
Speaker 3: and so they would look at these people and think, well,

399
00:23:54,382 --> 00:23:56,182
Speaker 3: you know, I've got kids. One of you would have

400
00:23:56,222 --> 00:23:59,422
Speaker 3: done that to mind child. So they were actually quite

401
00:23:59,422 --> 00:24:03,422
Speaker 3: often in danger of being close to any other inmates.

402
00:24:04,102 --> 00:24:08,102
Speaker 3: Other than that, there wasn't any other particular crime that

403
00:24:08,262 --> 00:24:14,542
Speaker 3: separated anyone. So you'd have your extortionists, you'd have your kidnappers,

404
00:24:14,622 --> 00:24:20,622
Speaker 3: you'd have your money launderers, john traffickers, murderers, robbery.

405
00:24:21,382 --> 00:24:23,622
Speaker 1: Did you hang out with the drug traffickers? Was it

406
00:24:23,742 --> 00:24:27,022
Speaker 1: like high school? I mean, I should laugh, it's not funny, but.

407
00:24:28,462 --> 00:24:31,382
Speaker 3: I think obviously the stories would go through And I

408
00:24:31,862 --> 00:24:36,342
Speaker 3: did speak to quite a few bigger drug traffickers who

409
00:24:36,382 --> 00:24:39,742
Speaker 3: you know, had been arrested with tons of cocaine and

410
00:24:39,822 --> 00:24:44,662
Speaker 3: they got four years. So it was quite interesting to

411
00:24:44,822 --> 00:24:49,102
Speaker 3: hear of their stories, and it showed such the imbalance

412
00:24:49,342 --> 00:24:52,422
Speaker 3: in the justice system over there, because there might have

413
00:24:52,502 --> 00:24:56,142
Speaker 3: been someone who had stolen two phones and they got

414
00:24:56,142 --> 00:25:01,902
Speaker 3: twenty years. So if there is no actual guide or

415
00:25:01,982 --> 00:25:05,302
Speaker 3: scale to go through salts, are you gonna say it's fair?

416
00:25:06,382 --> 00:25:09,462
Speaker 3: But I didn't really hang out with anyone in particular.

417
00:25:10,542 --> 00:25:14,502
Speaker 3: It was kind of based on the person, not what

418
00:25:14,542 --> 00:25:17,622
Speaker 3: they had done. It's kind of you get to know

419
00:25:17,702 --> 00:25:22,702
Speaker 3: the person without judging them, because if I'm there too,

420
00:25:22,822 --> 00:25:24,542
Speaker 3: I don't have a right to judge any one.

421
00:25:25,062 --> 00:25:28,822
Speaker 1: How long were you in prison before you received your

422
00:25:28,862 --> 00:25:31,222
Speaker 1: sentence and what was that day?

423
00:25:31,382 --> 00:25:34,862
Speaker 3: Like, I got sentence on the first of November in

424
00:25:34,942 --> 00:25:39,582
Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, I'd been there for six months, and I

425
00:25:39,702 --> 00:25:42,262
Speaker 3: was in that six months I'd kind of been forced

426
00:25:42,302 --> 00:25:47,222
Speaker 3: to learn Spanish because I didn't trust my lawyer. So

427
00:25:47,342 --> 00:25:50,502
Speaker 3: I would literally sit down with a book that's called

428
00:25:51,382 --> 00:25:55,862
Speaker 3: Equale Little Bemal, which is like your judge's law book,

429
00:25:56,582 --> 00:25:59,902
Speaker 3: and I would go through the laws and I would

430
00:25:59,982 --> 00:26:03,542
Speaker 3: learn where my kids actually fit into the justice system,

431
00:26:04,342 --> 00:26:06,142
Speaker 3: and I would actually argue with my lawyer.

432
00:26:06,222 --> 00:26:09,982
Speaker 1: Hang on a second, you arrived in jail and in Colombia,

433
00:26:10,022 --> 00:26:14,182
Speaker 1: not speaking any Spanish, you had to teach yourself not

434
00:26:14,302 --> 00:26:18,302
Speaker 1: just Spanish, but also legal Spanish within six months. How

435
00:26:18,302 --> 00:26:19,062
Speaker 1: did you do that?

436
00:26:19,742 --> 00:26:22,702
Speaker 3: The termination? No one was going to do it for me.

437
00:26:23,542 --> 00:26:26,142
Speaker 3: I guess I wanted to take away that barrier that

438
00:26:26,302 --> 00:26:31,662
Speaker 3: was really separating me from having communication and understanding every

439
00:26:31,822 --> 00:26:34,462
Speaker 3: step of the way of what was happening. Because I

440
00:26:34,462 --> 00:26:39,222
Speaker 3: didn't understand Gods, I didn't understand the medical center. I

441
00:26:39,262 --> 00:26:45,342
Speaker 3: didn't understand anything. And then obviously, in my first hearing

442
00:26:46,222 --> 00:26:48,942
Speaker 3: the translator that had actually been picked for my case,

443
00:26:49,502 --> 00:26:53,982
Speaker 3: he wasn't translating properly, and for me, I was like, oh, no,

444
00:26:54,262 --> 00:26:54,982
Speaker 3: here we go.

445
00:26:55,822 --> 00:26:58,502
Speaker 1: How did you know he wasn't translating properly if you

446
00:26:58,502 --> 00:26:59,942
Speaker 1: didn't speak the language yet.

447
00:27:00,182 --> 00:27:02,942
Speaker 3: I had a translator who was with me, a lady

448
00:27:02,942 --> 00:27:06,302
Speaker 3: who had actually come from Australia to translate, and she

449
00:27:06,582 --> 00:27:10,862
Speaker 3: was horrified at the translation service that the prosecuted offers

450
00:27:10,862 --> 00:27:11,662
Speaker 3: had to give it.

451
00:27:12,902 --> 00:27:15,222
Speaker 1: So, Cassie, how do you actually learn a language? I mean,

452
00:27:15,262 --> 00:27:17,502
Speaker 1: it's not like you have access to the duo lingo

453
00:27:17,582 --> 00:27:19,142
Speaker 1: app or anything in prison.

454
00:27:20,222 --> 00:27:23,262
Speaker 3: It goes back to like really old school with a

455
00:27:23,342 --> 00:27:27,022
Speaker 3: language dictionary, and basically I would pick word for word.

456
00:27:27,622 --> 00:27:30,982
Speaker 3: So in a sentence, let's say I wanted to say

457
00:27:31,502 --> 00:27:34,902
Speaker 3: I'm hungry, I had to figure out i'm and i'm

458
00:27:35,142 --> 00:27:37,302
Speaker 3: such a common use, so I'd be like, okay, this

459
00:27:37,542 --> 00:27:41,622
Speaker 3: they and then hungry is hungry. So it was like

460
00:27:41,662 --> 00:27:44,622
Speaker 3: a process of elimination of Once I learned a word,

461
00:27:45,062 --> 00:27:47,222
Speaker 3: I would just remove it from the words that I

462
00:27:47,262 --> 00:27:51,582
Speaker 3: needed to learn. And it took me to actually properly

463
00:27:51,902 --> 00:27:56,062
Speaker 3: speak it and understand word for word. It probably took

464
00:27:56,142 --> 00:27:59,902
Speaker 3: me about eight nine months. And even now, like I

465
00:27:59,982 --> 00:28:03,462
Speaker 3: think back at it and I don't remember the switch.

466
00:28:04,382 --> 00:28:07,342
Speaker 3: I don't remember that day where suddenly I could be

467
00:28:07,462 --> 00:28:11,582
Speaker 3: thinking in financial and actually speaking English or vice versa,

468
00:28:12,302 --> 00:28:17,342
Speaker 3: because now I think in both languages, like I've not

469
00:28:17,502 --> 00:28:19,862
Speaker 3: lost it at all, and it's quite interesting.

470
00:28:20,102 --> 00:28:23,382
Speaker 1: Actually, one of the things that freaks me out the

471
00:28:23,422 --> 00:28:26,662
Speaker 1: most about being in prison is the boredom. Did learning

472
00:28:26,662 --> 00:28:30,582
Speaker 1: a language and having a goal provide something to do

473
00:28:30,862 --> 00:28:33,102
Speaker 1: and some distraction and a purpose.

474
00:28:33,902 --> 00:28:38,382
Speaker 3: I think learning the language was my stepping stone to

475
00:28:38,462 --> 00:28:43,262
Speaker 3: being an English teacher, because I wanted to teach my

476
00:28:43,382 --> 00:28:50,262
Speaker 3: inmates English because in Colombia not many people actually speak English,

477
00:28:50,302 --> 00:28:53,342
Speaker 3: and if you do speak there's a whole world of opportunity,

478
00:28:53,822 --> 00:28:56,222
Speaker 3: like it lifts you up in the social scale, in

479
00:28:56,262 --> 00:29:01,062
Speaker 3: the working scale, everything. So I really wanted to, I guess,

480
00:29:01,662 --> 00:29:07,582
Speaker 3: try and help them find a new path when they left,

481
00:29:08,062 --> 00:29:10,422
Speaker 3: using the English that they had learned, so they didn't

482
00:29:10,582 --> 00:29:13,462
Speaker 3: feel like this time in between had been kind of

483
00:29:14,342 --> 00:29:17,782
Speaker 3: lost or they'd leave thinking, oh what am I going

484
00:29:17,862 --> 00:29:22,902
Speaker 3: to do now? So my purpose, I guess you could say,

485
00:29:22,902 --> 00:29:28,022
Speaker 3: actually became helping people inside jail. So I would teach

486
00:29:28,062 --> 00:29:31,662
Speaker 3: them English. I would actually help them write their legal letters.

487
00:29:32,062 --> 00:29:35,942
Speaker 3: It was really funny, actually the foreigner helping them do

488
00:29:36,382 --> 00:29:40,142
Speaker 3: legal letters, Like that's how well I'd actually managed to

489
00:29:40,182 --> 00:29:42,822
Speaker 3: learn the language, Like wouldn't just speak, I could read

490
00:29:42,862 --> 00:29:46,462
Speaker 3: it and I could write it. So the amount of

491
00:29:46,462 --> 00:29:48,862
Speaker 3: people that would come looking for me just to sit

492
00:29:48,942 --> 00:29:51,382
Speaker 3: down and have a chat and you know, try and

493
00:29:51,542 --> 00:29:55,262
Speaker 3: have motivation to get through another day, it was a lot.

494
00:29:56,302 --> 00:30:00,142
Speaker 3: And so it felt like my time there I had

495
00:30:00,182 --> 00:30:05,462
Speaker 3: actually used it well, so not only to reflect on

496
00:30:05,502 --> 00:30:08,862
Speaker 3: my own problems, on my own issues, to actually be

497
00:30:08,902 --> 00:30:13,222
Speaker 3: able to invest that time and I guess help other

498
00:30:13,262 --> 00:30:16,422
Speaker 3: people find a good way to deal with what happened

499
00:30:16,462 --> 00:30:21,142
Speaker 3: as well. When you discount you have to leave your

500
00:30:21,222 --> 00:30:24,742
Speaker 3: yard and go to I guess school, which is inside

501
00:30:24,782 --> 00:30:25,182
Speaker 3: the prison.

502
00:30:25,302 --> 00:30:26,422
Speaker 1: What does discount mean.

503
00:30:27,182 --> 00:30:31,622
Speaker 3: Discount is when you work to reduce your sentence. So

504
00:30:32,302 --> 00:30:36,142
Speaker 3: in that sense, if you don't discount, you can't leave

505
00:30:36,182 --> 00:30:40,782
Speaker 3: your yard. You are literally there until food's called and

506
00:30:40,782 --> 00:30:45,582
Speaker 3: then that's it. So I obviously had the between eight

507
00:30:45,662 --> 00:30:50,742
Speaker 3: am to midday, I was outside for classes and then

508
00:30:50,862 --> 00:30:53,302
Speaker 3: back into the yard for lunch, and then back out

509
00:30:53,422 --> 00:30:56,582
Speaker 3: again until about three point thirty and then I was

510
00:30:56,662 --> 00:31:01,102
Speaker 3: back into the yard. So obviously that distracted me quite

511
00:31:01,142 --> 00:31:04,942
Speaker 3: a lot, but it also gave me that movement through

512
00:31:04,982 --> 00:31:08,422
Speaker 3: the prison if I needed to submit paperwork, if I

513
00:31:08,502 --> 00:31:12,502
Speaker 3: needed to speak to the director, So that in that

514
00:31:12,742 --> 00:31:18,062
Speaker 3: sentence there was obviously that with discounting, which allowed one

515
00:31:18,102 --> 00:31:21,862
Speaker 3: to move more up.

516
00:31:21,902 --> 00:31:24,422
Speaker 1: Next, Cassie talks about the day that she was sentenced

517
00:31:24,582 --> 00:31:27,942
Speaker 1: to seventy two months behind bars. She talks about how

518
00:31:27,982 --> 00:31:31,982
Speaker 1: people have sex in prison and the very public marriage

519
00:31:32,062 --> 00:31:34,422
Speaker 1: proposal that she really didn't want.

520
00:31:36,862 --> 00:31:37,502
Speaker 3: The day that you.

521
00:31:37,462 --> 00:31:40,822
Speaker 1: Received your sentence, What was the sentence and how did

522
00:31:40,862 --> 00:31:42,502
Speaker 1: you feel about it on that day?

523
00:31:42,862 --> 00:31:47,582
Speaker 3: So I received seventy two months. In Columbia, they always

524
00:31:47,622 --> 00:31:51,102
Speaker 3: say months. They don't say years. It's more daunting for

525
00:31:51,182 --> 00:31:56,822
Speaker 3: me anyway, a six year sentence. The prosecutor had told

526
00:31:56,862 --> 00:32:01,222
Speaker 3: me that he had requested in my file that doing

527
00:32:01,262 --> 00:32:05,102
Speaker 3: discount dogs, I should be allowed to be released after

528
00:32:05,182 --> 00:32:09,942
Speaker 3: two years on probation, which was burely dus one of

529
00:32:09,982 --> 00:32:12,222
Speaker 3: his tap to get me to sign the plea deal,

530
00:32:12,902 --> 00:32:17,542
Speaker 3: because it didn't happen like that at all. In part

531
00:32:17,542 --> 00:32:20,742
Speaker 3: of it, I was still quite annoyed that my only

532
00:32:20,822 --> 00:32:23,942
Speaker 3: option had been to sign a plea deal because my

533
00:32:24,062 --> 00:32:27,062
Speaker 3: lawyer did not want to go down the other road.

534
00:32:27,142 --> 00:32:30,942
Speaker 1: He refused the other road being what being going to

535
00:32:31,022 --> 00:32:32,862
Speaker 1: trial and pleading not guilty.

536
00:32:33,302 --> 00:32:36,902
Speaker 3: Yeah, he didn't want to go to trial. He didn't

537
00:32:36,942 --> 00:32:42,302
Speaker 3: want to invest money investigators. So I kind of felt

538
00:32:42,302 --> 00:32:46,062
Speaker 3: like I didn't have an option there. And then at

539
00:32:46,062 --> 00:32:49,102
Speaker 3: the same time, I guess I knew the time that

540
00:32:49,222 --> 00:32:51,302
Speaker 3: I would have to serve, so there was kind of

541
00:32:51,342 --> 00:32:55,382
Speaker 3: that okay, mentally, I know how to prepare myself and

542
00:32:56,022 --> 00:32:58,822
Speaker 3: what I need to do if I want to get

543
00:32:58,862 --> 00:33:04,542
Speaker 3: out on probation or whatever available. It was really mixed feeling,

544
00:33:04,662 --> 00:33:07,022
Speaker 3: and I remember going back to the yard and I

545
00:33:07,182 --> 00:33:10,902
Speaker 3: was crying. I never cried in front of anyone, cried

546
00:33:11,062 --> 00:33:15,622
Speaker 3: when I was alone. Why because I didn't want in

547
00:33:15,662 --> 00:33:19,222
Speaker 3: particular when obviously media, I didn't want them thinking that

548
00:33:19,422 --> 00:33:23,702
Speaker 3: I was victimizing myself or trying to make people feel

549
00:33:23,782 --> 00:33:27,502
Speaker 3: sorry for me. So I never showed emotion in front

550
00:33:27,502 --> 00:33:30,622
Speaker 3: of the media. I didn't want my family seeing me

551
00:33:31,462 --> 00:33:35,462
Speaker 3: in that emotional wreck either, because it was hard enough

552
00:33:35,502 --> 00:33:39,102
Speaker 3: seeing you know, family member in those circumstances, and then

553
00:33:39,142 --> 00:33:42,662
Speaker 3: to see that mentally they're not copying. I couldn't do that.

554
00:33:43,382 --> 00:33:46,622
Speaker 3: But then when I got back to the yard, I

555
00:33:46,782 --> 00:33:51,542
Speaker 3: was crying. I was frustrated. I'm sad, and I wasn't

556
00:33:51,582 --> 00:33:54,902
Speaker 3: seeing that clean and self. Okay, all right, Cassie, get

557
00:33:54,942 --> 00:33:58,182
Speaker 3: hisself together. You need to wake out your plan. Now.

558
00:33:58,542 --> 00:34:03,662
Speaker 3: I was in that moment of well, six years, seventy

559
00:34:03,702 --> 00:34:07,262
Speaker 3: two months, and you'd go through and I think like

560
00:34:07,502 --> 00:34:12,462
Speaker 3: in days, it was three thousand or four thousand days

561
00:34:12,702 --> 00:34:16,342
Speaker 3: on the lady who had kind of taken me on

562
00:34:16,542 --> 00:34:19,462
Speaker 3: as a mother figure, she came in and she's like,

563
00:34:19,582 --> 00:34:24,022
Speaker 3: don't cry. She's like, you know what, it's gonna be fine,

564
00:34:24,022 --> 00:34:27,702
Speaker 3: You're gonna get through it. You just need to process

565
00:34:27,702 --> 00:34:31,662
Speaker 3: what's happening and then just just do it. And I

566
00:34:31,702 --> 00:34:34,142
Speaker 3: was thinking in the moment off, well, thank you for

567
00:34:34,222 --> 00:34:36,942
Speaker 3: bad advice. You know, that makes me feel so much

568
00:34:36,982 --> 00:34:40,102
Speaker 3: better in this line, right. But I think something that

569
00:34:40,182 --> 00:34:44,022
Speaker 3: really helped me push through that mental block of well

570
00:34:44,262 --> 00:34:48,182
Speaker 3: six years was the fact that as bad as I

571
00:34:48,342 --> 00:34:51,382
Speaker 3: felt that I had line at that moment, as bad

572
00:34:51,382 --> 00:34:54,302
Speaker 3: as I felt that my situation was, there was always

573
00:34:54,302 --> 00:34:57,742
Speaker 3: going to be someone who was going through something so

574
00:34:57,902 --> 00:35:01,782
Speaker 3: much worse. I didn't have children, and that was something

575
00:35:01,822 --> 00:35:04,862
Speaker 3: that I really focus on. I didn't have children. There

576
00:35:04,942 --> 00:35:09,462
Speaker 3: was so many women there that have children outside abandoned

577
00:35:09,542 --> 00:35:12,302
Speaker 3: because no one could after that, they would have to

578
00:35:12,302 --> 00:35:14,382
Speaker 3: give up their rights as parents, put them in the

579
00:35:14,382 --> 00:35:18,662
Speaker 3: foster system. That's where he came from wanting to help

580
00:35:18,702 --> 00:35:21,782
Speaker 3: people because I thought, you know, I went through some

581
00:35:21,902 --> 00:35:27,262
Speaker 3: pretty crappy things, but I'm okay, you know. So it

582
00:35:27,342 --> 00:35:30,582
Speaker 3: was like, if I can help them just feel good

583
00:35:30,782 --> 00:35:34,302
Speaker 3: for a day or a moment, they're the little things

584
00:35:34,342 --> 00:35:37,302
Speaker 3: that allow us to just move forward and take one

585
00:35:37,502 --> 00:35:40,142
Speaker 3: day at a time, because that's all we can do.

586
00:35:40,262 --> 00:35:41,822
Speaker 3: There is one day at a time.

587
00:35:43,142 --> 00:35:46,702
Speaker 1: When you went into prison, you're engaged to a guy

588
00:35:47,302 --> 00:35:51,142
Speaker 1: called Scott. Yeah, how'd that pan out?

589
00:35:51,662 --> 00:35:57,262
Speaker 3: Well, it didn't last very long. Purely because I would

590
00:35:57,342 --> 00:36:01,742
Speaker 3: call him, I guess, wanting to have a normal chat, right,

591
00:36:02,182 --> 00:36:04,822
Speaker 3: a normal chat about life, and you know he would

592
00:36:04,862 --> 00:36:08,182
Speaker 3: parlol all his problems outside.

593
00:36:08,462 --> 00:36:09,862
Speaker 1: While you were in prison.

594
00:36:11,462 --> 00:36:13,942
Speaker 3: And so he'd be like, no, this is happening, this

595
00:36:13,982 --> 00:36:16,542
Speaker 3: is happening, I need these. I'm thinking, oh my god,

596
00:36:17,422 --> 00:36:21,302
Speaker 3: like I can't deal with with all of that, Like,

597
00:36:21,382 --> 00:36:24,942
Speaker 3: I'll be here as much as I can. And then

598
00:36:24,982 --> 00:36:27,222
Speaker 3: it would be he would ring me out to complain

599
00:36:27,622 --> 00:36:29,502
Speaker 3: about the problems with my mum.

600
00:36:29,822 --> 00:36:32,462
Speaker 1: Do you get phone privileges? Do they listen to your

601
00:36:32,462 --> 00:36:33,182
Speaker 1: phone calls?

602
00:36:33,902 --> 00:36:38,062
Speaker 3: So for each yard there is one phone that allows

603
00:36:38,222 --> 00:36:42,622
Speaker 3: incoming calls, so you might be there for like three

604
00:36:42,662 --> 00:36:45,582
Speaker 3: hours trying to actually get a call to be accepted.

605
00:36:46,742 --> 00:36:50,862
Speaker 3: Or the other option is we can buy phone cards

606
00:36:51,782 --> 00:36:55,502
Speaker 3: and with that you can call out. However, the phone

607
00:36:55,502 --> 00:36:59,222
Speaker 3: cards are like three thousand pays and five thousand pay

608
00:36:59,262 --> 00:37:03,342
Speaker 3: so and I would literally get from three thousand pacer,

609
00:37:03,462 --> 00:37:07,062
Speaker 3: i'd get like a minute phone call and from five

610
00:37:07,102 --> 00:37:09,942
Speaker 3: thousand i'd get two and a half. Because the rate

611
00:37:10,022 --> 00:37:13,622
Speaker 3: to call home was really expensive, and not only that,

612
00:37:13,822 --> 00:37:17,182
Speaker 3: the hours the hour difference was impossible.

613
00:37:18,902 --> 00:37:21,942
Speaker 1: And how long did you stay together before it ended.

614
00:37:22,702 --> 00:37:27,702
Speaker 3: I think we were together until January and twenty eighteen,

615
00:37:28,582 --> 00:37:32,062
Speaker 3: but before then it had already finished. I guess you

616
00:37:32,062 --> 00:37:35,902
Speaker 3: could say like there was no real communication anymore. It

617
00:37:35,982 --> 00:37:38,462
Speaker 3: almost like he would call you because he felt like

618
00:37:38,502 --> 00:37:42,182
Speaker 3: he had to type thing, not because he wanted to.

619
00:37:42,982 --> 00:37:47,302
Speaker 3: And I think he for me was just like a

620
00:37:47,382 --> 00:37:52,582
Speaker 3: comfort zone type thing more than anything, because even before

621
00:37:52,622 --> 00:37:56,022
Speaker 3: coming to Colombia, you know, being engage, I never actually

622
00:37:56,102 --> 00:37:59,622
Speaker 3: wanted to marry him, so it was quite a transformation

623
00:38:00,062 --> 00:38:02,062
Speaker 3: time or in the middle there.

624
00:38:01,862 --> 00:38:04,622
Speaker 1: Really tell me about love and sex in prison?

625
00:38:05,622 --> 00:38:12,782
Speaker 3: Okay, So in prison once a mon there are what

626
00:38:12,862 --> 00:38:16,902
Speaker 3: they call conjugal visits, basically a sex visit, which is

627
00:38:17,302 --> 00:38:20,422
Speaker 3: throughout the normal time that they do visits on the weekend.

628
00:38:20,622 --> 00:38:22,622
Speaker 3: You have to have a registered partner to come in

629
00:38:23,462 --> 00:38:26,342
Speaker 3: and see you. If you do have a partner inside

630
00:38:26,382 --> 00:38:29,262
Speaker 3: the present, you can also request to go to where

631
00:38:29,302 --> 00:38:33,182
Speaker 3: they live or they go to you. Apparently sexual health

632
00:38:33,302 --> 00:38:34,662
Speaker 3: is very important in prison.

633
00:38:35,142 --> 00:38:37,022
Speaker 1: Wow, Where do these conjugal visits happen?

634
00:38:37,422 --> 00:38:41,902
Speaker 3: In the cells? So if you share a cell with

635
00:38:42,782 --> 00:38:46,102
Speaker 3: one to five people, basically you would have to take

636
00:38:46,182 --> 00:38:49,582
Speaker 3: turns of who would have the visit. So I will

637
00:38:49,582 --> 00:38:53,502
Speaker 3: actually quite lucky. I never never had one, even having

638
00:38:53,662 --> 00:38:58,382
Speaker 3: I guess I had girlfriends inside, but I never felt

639
00:38:59,102 --> 00:39:03,102
Speaker 3: that I wanted to, I guess to say, I never

640
00:39:03,182 --> 00:39:08,822
Speaker 3: felt that connection to actually want to commit to having

641
00:39:08,902 --> 00:39:10,022
Speaker 3: a conjugal visit.

642
00:39:10,102 --> 00:39:12,182
Speaker 1: What it mean to have a girlfriend inside? Was that

643
00:39:12,182 --> 00:39:13,182
Speaker 1: a really common thing?

644
00:39:13,662 --> 00:39:16,742
Speaker 3: It was very common. You would actually see people who

645
00:39:16,862 --> 00:39:19,222
Speaker 3: have their husbands who live outside and then they have

646
00:39:19,342 --> 00:39:22,382
Speaker 3: their girl braends. But it was quite common, I guess

647
00:39:22,462 --> 00:39:26,262
Speaker 3: because more than the sexual side, I think it was

648
00:39:26,382 --> 00:39:31,182
Speaker 3: just that having someone to confide in to share times

649
00:39:31,742 --> 00:39:34,662
Speaker 3: make it a little bit easier, and ideally it would

650
00:39:34,662 --> 00:39:38,022
Speaker 3: always start because they're your friend, and then it kind

651
00:39:38,022 --> 00:39:39,222
Speaker 3: of just goes from there.

652
00:39:39,822 --> 00:39:41,142
Speaker 1: Had you been with women before?

653
00:39:42,222 --> 00:39:45,542
Speaker 3: Uh? Yes, When I was younger, I actually knew that

654
00:39:45,662 --> 00:39:49,382
Speaker 3: I liked women, but I was too scared to come out.

655
00:39:50,422 --> 00:39:55,702
Speaker 3: And I had been so convinced that after having I guess,

656
00:39:56,222 --> 00:39:58,942
Speaker 3: whether it'd be kissing a girl or having you know,

657
00:39:59,102 --> 00:40:01,782
Speaker 3: a relationship with a girl, something would always go bad

658
00:40:01,862 --> 00:40:06,262
Speaker 3: in my life. And so I started kind of convincing

659
00:40:06,302 --> 00:40:09,622
Speaker 3: myself that I was having such a hard time in

660
00:40:09,662 --> 00:40:13,862
Speaker 3: life because I wasn't normal well, and so that's where

661
00:40:14,062 --> 00:40:17,302
Speaker 3: you know, I started forcing myself to have boyfriends and

662
00:40:17,462 --> 00:40:21,902
Speaker 3: try and be normal, and then it was horrible that

663
00:40:22,062 --> 00:40:25,622
Speaker 3: I can tell you right now. I hated having sex

664
00:40:25,662 --> 00:40:29,622
Speaker 3: with a man. I hated it. And it was just

665
00:40:30,782 --> 00:40:34,862
Speaker 3: purely having boyfriends for an image, because I mean, you

666
00:40:34,902 --> 00:40:37,502
Speaker 3: can speak to any of my exes and I wasn't

667
00:40:37,542 --> 00:40:42,022
Speaker 3: sexually active with them. It was more so that having

668
00:40:42,062 --> 00:40:45,382
Speaker 3: them there, you know, sharing a meal, going out to

669
00:40:45,422 --> 00:40:49,302
Speaker 3: the movies, and so for me, it was always more

670
00:40:49,342 --> 00:40:51,942
Speaker 3: on that side of just a friend. Really.

671
00:40:53,022 --> 00:40:58,222
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, So in some ways being in prison and

672
00:40:58,302 --> 00:41:01,022
Speaker 1: having no other options was it a bit freeing.

673
00:41:02,502 --> 00:41:05,142
Speaker 3: So when I arrived to prison and I saw how

674
00:41:06,182 --> 00:41:10,382
Speaker 3: free and unjudgmental everything was, it was I still thought.

675
00:41:10,902 --> 00:41:12,862
Speaker 3: Don't get me wrong, I fought it for quite some

676
00:41:12,942 --> 00:41:15,342
Speaker 3: plan because I was like, no, I can't be the

677
00:41:15,382 --> 00:41:19,222
Speaker 3: new girl who suddenly is a lesbian who will be

678
00:41:19,262 --> 00:41:22,382
Speaker 3: picked on. So I kept it to myself for at

679
00:41:22,502 --> 00:41:25,582
Speaker 3: least another year or so before I kind of just

680
00:41:25,702 --> 00:41:29,662
Speaker 3: let it out. And I think this was also part

681
00:41:29,782 --> 00:41:35,102
Speaker 3: of my reflection process of finally allowing me to be me.

682
00:41:36,222 --> 00:41:38,822
Speaker 3: And the thing is I already had the worst reputation,

683
00:41:39,022 --> 00:41:41,382
Speaker 3: so I'd thought, you know what, what could be worth,

684
00:41:41,742 --> 00:41:44,222
Speaker 3: you know, I can't get any more on the bottom.

685
00:41:44,462 --> 00:41:48,622
Speaker 3: And I guess coming out and being around people who

686
00:41:48,702 --> 00:41:52,702
Speaker 3: actually supported that it really helped boost that self esteem

687
00:41:52,742 --> 00:41:56,702
Speaker 3: of Okay, I can do this, you know. So it

688
00:41:56,742 --> 00:41:59,862
Speaker 3: was really enlightening, felt like a huge weight had been

689
00:41:59,862 --> 00:42:01,262
Speaker 3: lifted off my shoulders.

690
00:42:01,702 --> 00:42:04,102
Speaker 1: In prison, the prison you were in, was there a

691
00:42:04,142 --> 00:42:07,822
Speaker 1: lot of casual sex or it was more relationships?

692
00:42:08,702 --> 00:42:11,902
Speaker 3: I think it was more relationships then casual sex.

693
00:42:12,342 --> 00:42:15,422
Speaker 1: And I can't imagine there's much privacy in jail. No

694
00:42:15,742 --> 00:42:16,702
Speaker 1: where do you hook up.

695
00:42:17,182 --> 00:42:20,022
Speaker 3: They would do it in the cells, like they no

696
00:42:20,142 --> 00:42:23,222
Speaker 3: worries about that, and there would be people, let's say

697
00:42:23,262 --> 00:42:26,222
Speaker 3: it wasn't a sex visit and two pop would going

698
00:42:26,262 --> 00:42:28,742
Speaker 3: at it in a cell. They would actually pay someone

699
00:42:28,782 --> 00:42:30,902
Speaker 3: to keep watch to make sure no guard was coming.

700
00:42:31,822 --> 00:42:34,022
Speaker 1: So would the guards just turn a blind eye, or

701
00:42:34,102 --> 00:42:37,622
Speaker 1: if there was no one being paid, they'd tell you

702
00:42:37,662 --> 00:42:38,302
Speaker 1: to stop.

703
00:42:38,062 --> 00:42:41,022
Speaker 3: It, so if you get caught, you would actually be

704
00:42:41,342 --> 00:42:45,742
Speaker 3: separated and sent to different yards. And it also be

705
00:42:45,982 --> 00:42:49,102
Speaker 3: something they called an in fordy, which is like a

706
00:42:49,142 --> 00:42:52,782
Speaker 3: behavior record, so you'd now have bad behate.

707
00:42:52,822 --> 00:42:56,702
Speaker 1: Yeah right, so it wasn't as easy as some might imagine. Yeah, no,

708
00:42:56,862 --> 00:43:11,022
Speaker 1: it wasn't and some planning was requiet. Absolutely, you got

709
00:43:11,062 --> 00:43:15,102
Speaker 1: engaged in prison, and for reasons that I can't explain.

710
00:43:15,182 --> 00:43:19,502
Speaker 1: I've seen the video. Someone took a video of it,

711
00:43:19,662 --> 00:43:20,862
Speaker 1: and it was.

712
00:43:20,862 --> 00:43:22,222
Speaker 3: Leaked or sold.

713
00:43:22,262 --> 00:43:25,742
Speaker 1: I should say, no doubt to the media. Tell me

714
00:43:25,782 --> 00:43:27,622
Speaker 1: about Jolie.

715
00:43:27,862 --> 00:43:31,542
Speaker 3: So this one was an interesting one. We were friends,

716
00:43:32,502 --> 00:43:36,022
Speaker 3: you know, it went from friends at pajure Kitsie and

717
00:43:36,062 --> 00:43:41,222
Speaker 3: then I guess relying on that friendship until one day

718
00:43:41,302 --> 00:43:44,822
Speaker 3: we had actually come back in from the exercising that

719
00:43:44,862 --> 00:43:48,622
Speaker 3: we're allowed to do, and she's really weird and there

720
00:43:48,662 --> 00:43:51,902
Speaker 3: she's like, you can't come out and sell okay, And

721
00:43:51,902 --> 00:43:54,342
Speaker 3: then when I did come out, there was this huge

722
00:43:54,382 --> 00:43:59,262
Speaker 3: post we married me. Oh, everyone in the yard had

723
00:43:59,302 --> 00:44:02,902
Speaker 3: literally come to watch this. I can't think of anything

724
00:44:02,942 --> 00:44:07,742
Speaker 3: worse than a public proposal. I had not actually considered

725
00:44:08,182 --> 00:44:11,182
Speaker 3: marrying this girl, and now I've been put on the

726
00:44:11,222 --> 00:44:11,942
Speaker 3: spot of.

727
00:44:12,342 --> 00:44:15,022
Speaker 1: We marry How long had you been together?

728
00:44:15,622 --> 00:44:17,582
Speaker 3: I think we would have been together maybe like four

729
00:44:17,742 --> 00:44:21,982
Speaker 3: or five months, right, And so I've come out and

730
00:44:22,142 --> 00:44:23,982
Speaker 3: she did this whole speech and I kind of just

731
00:44:24,062 --> 00:44:26,862
Speaker 3: looked at her, and I looked at everyone, and I

732
00:44:26,982 --> 00:44:31,822
Speaker 3: go yes, because I didn't know what to do, and

733
00:44:31,822 --> 00:44:35,182
Speaker 3: I thought, you know what to leave here? I leave

734
00:44:35,262 --> 00:44:40,062
Speaker 3: this area, no one will em I know. And then

735
00:44:40,662 --> 00:44:42,982
Speaker 3: when we went and told you right, I said, you know,

736
00:44:43,182 --> 00:44:46,382
Speaker 3: I don't want to marry you, like right now, we

737
00:44:46,422 --> 00:44:50,502
Speaker 3: are in such an enclosed environment. We don't know what

738
00:44:50,542 --> 00:44:53,062
Speaker 3: will happen when we go outside. The relationship will be

739
00:44:53,782 --> 00:44:57,342
Speaker 3: completely different. And she's like, no, it's fine, you know,

740
00:44:57,862 --> 00:45:00,742
Speaker 3: just looking at the promise, Rey, she knew that I

741
00:45:00,862 --> 00:45:04,222
Speaker 3: wasn't going to marry her, but I guess kind of

742
00:45:04,262 --> 00:45:07,862
Speaker 3: went along with the idea of it, which was an

743
00:45:07,982 --> 00:45:10,862
Speaker 3: error in this time that I guess I didn't realize

744
00:45:10,862 --> 00:45:15,582
Speaker 3: that I'm falling into that because we were not good

745
00:45:15,622 --> 00:45:20,142
Speaker 3: for each other at all. She very toxic person. Being

746
00:45:20,182 --> 00:45:23,902
Speaker 3: with a woman you expect to receive the same treatment

747
00:45:23,902 --> 00:45:26,742
Speaker 3: that you would give them, not the whole I'm better

748
00:45:26,782 --> 00:45:29,022
Speaker 3: than you. You need to do what I say type thing.

749
00:45:29,702 --> 00:45:33,942
Speaker 3: So at the start she was a really really nice person,

750
00:45:34,782 --> 00:45:38,662
Speaker 3: and then probably when she thought she had control of me,

751
00:45:39,462 --> 00:45:40,382
Speaker 3: completely changed.

752
00:45:41,142 --> 00:45:44,862
Speaker 1: You were released from prison early. When did you find

753
00:45:44,862 --> 00:45:48,022
Speaker 1: out that your sentence had been reduced and you were

754
00:45:48,022 --> 00:45:48,902
Speaker 1: going out?

755
00:45:49,262 --> 00:45:51,742
Speaker 3: So I had a meeting with my judge. It would

756
00:45:51,782 --> 00:45:55,942
Speaker 3: have been in December twenty nineteen, and I actually wasn't

757
00:45:55,942 --> 00:45:58,382
Speaker 3: going to talk to her. We didn't get along very well.

758
00:45:58,862 --> 00:46:04,102
Speaker 3: Her son had had an overdose on drugs and unfortunately

759
00:46:04,102 --> 00:46:08,022
Speaker 3: passed away, so she was quite hard shouldn't any type

760
00:46:08,062 --> 00:46:11,222
Speaker 3: of case that involved drugs. And the first time I'd

761
00:46:11,262 --> 00:46:12,942
Speaker 3: ever met with her, she's like, you know what, don't

762
00:46:12,942 --> 00:46:16,702
Speaker 3: bother coming to see me. It's six years, that's it,

763
00:46:17,022 --> 00:46:18,902
Speaker 3: So why would I bother going a talking tree again

764
00:46:19,022 --> 00:46:22,582
Speaker 3: me just to be let down. So when I hadn't

765
00:46:22,622 --> 00:46:25,182
Speaker 3: saw her this day, it was the end of the

766
00:46:25,262 --> 00:46:27,542
Speaker 3: day and someone was like, why don't you just go

767
00:46:27,582 --> 00:46:29,902
Speaker 3: and talk to her? You know, she's in a good mood.

768
00:46:29,982 --> 00:46:31,862
Speaker 3: I thought, yeah, what's a good mood from a pig

769
00:46:32,022 --> 00:46:35,062
Speaker 3: this lady? So I thought, all right, gone in there,

770
00:46:35,422 --> 00:46:42,862
Speaker 3: sat down, and she goes, hi, Hi, the big Spanish

771
00:46:42,902 --> 00:46:46,742
Speaker 3: shit said yeah, that's how long I had not seen her.

772
00:46:47,302 --> 00:46:50,942
Speaker 3: I had not lost any false hope in going to

773
00:46:51,022 --> 00:46:53,262
Speaker 3: see her and waiting for an answer that I knew

774
00:46:53,302 --> 00:46:56,462
Speaker 3: I wasn't going to get. And she goes, what have

775
00:46:56,502 --> 00:46:58,702
Speaker 3: you been doing? And I'm pretty much just holding you

776
00:46:58,702 --> 00:47:01,342
Speaker 3: know that I've been teaching, and she brought up my

777
00:47:01,382 --> 00:47:03,422
Speaker 3: file and she's looking and she's, oh, you've got a

778
00:47:03,462 --> 00:47:08,822
Speaker 3: fair amount of discount. I don't on yeah, I think

779
00:47:08,822 --> 00:47:10,862
Speaker 3: I had maybe like eight or nine months that i'd

780
00:47:10,862 --> 00:47:13,662
Speaker 3: managed to wake up over two and a half years.

781
00:47:14,862 --> 00:47:18,342
Speaker 3: And she goes, you know what, Cassandra, because they don't

782
00:47:18,342 --> 00:47:21,462
Speaker 3: say Cassie over there, it's all full name, So why

783
00:47:21,462 --> 00:47:24,062
Speaker 3: are you just send me in your paperwork? And I'm

784
00:47:24,102 --> 00:47:27,062
Speaker 3: going oh, and I'm thinking in my head i'm doing

785
00:47:27,062 --> 00:47:29,342
Speaker 3: the maths. I'm going I don't have time yet to

786
00:47:29,422 --> 00:47:32,462
Speaker 3: do that. So i'd be like, hey, thanks you, and

787
00:47:32,502 --> 00:47:35,862
Speaker 3: I left and I didn't send my paperwork in why

788
00:47:36,822 --> 00:47:40,502
Speaker 3: because I knew by law that I had to have

789
00:47:40,862 --> 00:47:44,302
Speaker 3: three fifths of my sentence to be considered for PEROT

790
00:47:45,102 --> 00:47:48,382
Speaker 3: and I didn't have that yet, and I did not

791
00:47:48,582 --> 00:47:50,822
Speaker 3: want to be let down by sending it and then

792
00:47:50,862 --> 00:47:54,462
Speaker 3: her going oh no, sorry, can't do it yet. Well

793
00:47:54,542 --> 00:47:57,062
Speaker 3: I thought, okay, I'm going to be smart. I'm just

794
00:47:57,062 --> 00:48:00,102
Speaker 3: going to wait the eche of time and i'll send

795
00:48:00,142 --> 00:48:03,862
Speaker 3: it in when I do have time. So it was

796
00:48:04,022 --> 00:48:08,142
Speaker 3: in February. In February, I managed to saw out everything

797
00:48:08,182 --> 00:48:11,662
Speaker 3: that I needed to legally are us for her role,

798
00:48:12,382 --> 00:48:16,142
Speaker 3: send it in and then I didn't hear anything at

799
00:48:16,182 --> 00:48:20,142
Speaker 3: all that'd be and the prison was always making up

800
00:48:20,182 --> 00:48:24,262
Speaker 3: excuses for not sending paperwork that the judge needs, so

801
00:48:24,302 --> 00:48:28,382
Speaker 3: they have to send through your behavioral report, the discount report,

802
00:48:29,302 --> 00:48:31,782
Speaker 3: and there would always be we don't have any paper,

803
00:48:32,222 --> 00:48:37,102
Speaker 3: we don't have any print, ink, the internet's down. Like

804
00:48:37,342 --> 00:48:40,222
Speaker 3: getting out of that place, they make it in possible.

805
00:48:42,142 --> 00:48:46,862
Speaker 3: So when obviously the judge actually subpointed my documents because

806
00:48:46,862 --> 00:48:50,262
Speaker 3: they realized that it was taking way too long. And

807
00:48:50,302 --> 00:48:53,102
Speaker 3: then I think it was in March, towards the end

808
00:48:53,102 --> 00:48:56,222
Speaker 3: of March, and they just started calling every day, calling

809
00:48:56,302 --> 00:48:57,902
Speaker 3: judges of us every day. I thought, you know what,

810
00:48:58,462 --> 00:48:59,782
Speaker 3: I'm just going to be a paved in the yards

811
00:48:59,822 --> 00:49:04,382
Speaker 3: now signed cooler, and the assistant be like, no, nothing yet,

812
00:49:04,462 --> 00:49:09,302
Speaker 3: nothing yet. And then it so happened the last weekend

813
00:49:09,422 --> 00:49:12,182
Speaker 3: in March. Hadn't called him a few days. I don't

814
00:49:12,182 --> 00:49:15,622
Speaker 3: know why han't it called. And I woke up on

815
00:49:15,662 --> 00:49:17,942
Speaker 3: the Monday and I thought, you know what, I'm gonna

816
00:49:17,942 --> 00:49:20,702
Speaker 3: go on cold. So I'm cold out of the office

817
00:49:20,782 --> 00:49:24,142
Speaker 3: and the assistant already near my boy, and You're like, I, Cassandra,

818
00:49:24,782 --> 00:49:28,262
Speaker 3: am I I'm just checking to see if if anything's

819
00:49:28,262 --> 00:49:31,102
Speaker 3: been untrued, and he goes, yeah, it's been approved, right

820
00:49:31,182 --> 00:49:34,702
Speaker 3: kind of. And I'm god, what, like he took me

821
00:49:35,582 --> 00:49:38,702
Speaker 3: like time to process that. And he goes, it's been

822
00:49:38,942 --> 00:49:42,262
Speaker 3: approved and no, I'm like, don't cheat about these things.

823
00:49:42,462 --> 00:49:44,782
Speaker 3: He's like, why would I joke about this? It's my job.

824
00:49:45,422 --> 00:49:47,742
Speaker 3: I'm like, well, I didn't mean it like that. I'm

825
00:49:47,822 --> 00:49:51,462
Speaker 3: just trying to process it. He's like, yeap, you need

826
00:49:51,502 --> 00:49:55,822
Speaker 3: to organize your bond caution, which was about I think

827
00:49:55,862 --> 00:49:59,342
Speaker 3: two thousand dollars, and then you need to send the

828
00:49:59,422 --> 00:50:02,062
Speaker 3: receipt to the judge's office and then they will issue

829
00:50:02,142 --> 00:50:03,062
Speaker 3: the freedom slip.

830
00:50:04,382 --> 00:50:05,662
Speaker 1: Freedom slip.

831
00:50:06,102 --> 00:50:09,662
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I didn't tell anyone, didn't tell anyone why.

832
00:50:09,702 --> 00:50:12,182
Speaker 3: I back to my and I just sat there and

833
00:50:12,222 --> 00:50:14,542
Speaker 3: I was kind of picking the people that I was telling.

834
00:50:15,382 --> 00:50:19,182
Speaker 3: So I've gone down to the lady who had received

835
00:50:19,222 --> 00:50:22,222
Speaker 3: me the first time in that yard, and I've gone,

836
00:50:22,262 --> 00:50:25,102
Speaker 3: you know what, I've just been told that my parole

837
00:50:25,182 --> 00:50:29,262
Speaker 3: has been granted. And she started to cry, You're leaving me,

838
00:50:29,502 --> 00:50:31,862
Speaker 3: you know, leave me your line, You're gonna forget about me.

839
00:50:32,502 --> 00:50:35,022
Speaker 3: And I'm thinking, no, it's not the case. I'm like,

840
00:50:35,062 --> 00:50:36,942
Speaker 3: if anything, I can probably help you more on the

841
00:50:36,982 --> 00:50:41,222
Speaker 3: outside than the inside. And then obviously by people started

842
00:50:41,262 --> 00:50:43,782
Speaker 3: to put it together because people were coming to visit

843
00:50:43,822 --> 00:50:46,102
Speaker 3: me and they'd be like, oh, can you leave me

844
00:50:46,142 --> 00:50:50,382
Speaker 3: this Chlothy, because the idea obviously I didn't really want

845
00:50:50,422 --> 00:50:53,502
Speaker 3: to take anything that had been inside there of kind

846
00:50:53,502 --> 00:50:58,342
Speaker 3: of leaving anything, I guess with that kind of energy there.

847
00:50:59,382 --> 00:51:02,862
Speaker 3: And then time went by, and I had a friend

848
00:51:02,902 --> 00:51:06,222
Speaker 3: on the outside now and I'm arguing with her every

849
00:51:06,302 --> 00:51:09,622
Speaker 3: day because I'm thinking, why it's taking so long, and

850
00:51:09,662 --> 00:51:12,062
Speaker 3: the poor thing like she was trying to do.

851
00:51:12,222 --> 00:51:14,222
Speaker 1: A friend that you'd made in prison, who is now

852
00:51:15,102 --> 00:51:17,742
Speaker 1: named Crystal. Yeah, and when you'd spoken to the guy

853
00:51:17,742 --> 00:51:19,782
Speaker 1: on the phone, had he given you any indication of

854
00:51:19,822 --> 00:51:20,502
Speaker 1: time frame?

855
00:51:21,142 --> 00:51:25,222
Speaker 3: No? And the thing is we were in Colombia at

856
00:51:25,262 --> 00:51:28,622
Speaker 3: that point. We were actually about to go into quarantine

857
00:51:28,702 --> 00:51:33,862
Speaker 3: for COVID, So I had days to get this organized

858
00:51:34,102 --> 00:51:38,302
Speaker 3: or I would not have been released. Crystal running a

859
00:51:38,382 --> 00:51:41,222
Speaker 3: mark out sign, she went and did the deposit for

860
00:51:41,262 --> 00:51:44,302
Speaker 3: the caution, took it to the Dadgit's out birth and

861
00:51:44,342 --> 00:51:48,342
Speaker 3: then nothing happened either, And so I started pressuring the

862
00:51:48,702 --> 00:51:50,902
Speaker 3: guards from the inside as well, and I said, you

863
00:51:50,982 --> 00:51:54,142
Speaker 3: know what, it's come up on the system online now

864
00:51:54,222 --> 00:51:57,622
Speaker 3: that it says that my freedom slip has been issued.

865
00:51:58,622 --> 00:52:00,782
Speaker 3: And there's a law in Columbia that says once it's

866
00:52:00,822 --> 00:52:03,622
Speaker 3: been issued, they can't keep you for more than twenty

867
00:52:03,662 --> 00:52:08,422
Speaker 3: four hours because then it comes kidding, it's nice to

868
00:52:08,462 --> 00:52:11,502
Speaker 3: know these sorts of law. Its once some of the

869
00:52:11,502 --> 00:52:15,022
Speaker 3: guards are saying, no, nothing's come through. Yeut. And then

870
00:52:16,142 --> 00:52:18,942
Speaker 3: one guard who I got along with really well. She

871
00:52:19,062 --> 00:52:21,582
Speaker 3: hated me when I arrived, but by the end she

872
00:52:21,622 --> 00:52:24,742
Speaker 3: absolutely loved me. And I said, look, it comes up

873
00:52:24,822 --> 00:52:27,902
Speaker 3: in the system that it was sent. It was Friday.

874
00:52:27,942 --> 00:52:31,542
Speaker 3: Now she's look, I'm going to have a look, but

875
00:52:31,702 --> 00:52:35,502
Speaker 3: I can't promise you anything. So she went out there

876
00:52:35,542 --> 00:52:38,382
Speaker 3: and probably within like two hours, would have been about

877
00:52:38,382 --> 00:52:42,662
Speaker 3: midday on Friday on the third of April, and she goes, look,

878
00:52:43,102 --> 00:52:46,942
Speaker 3: here's what you mean to sign, which is basically compromising

879
00:52:47,062 --> 00:52:50,182
Speaker 3: that I would not leave the country, that I had

880
00:52:50,222 --> 00:52:53,462
Speaker 3: to report to immigration. Looked a month. I thought, Oh, okay,

881
00:52:53,782 --> 00:52:55,782
Speaker 3: She's like, I'm going to do this, like now I

882
00:52:55,822 --> 00:52:58,302
Speaker 3: have to do an Interpol chat. She said that might

883
00:52:58,342 --> 00:53:01,542
Speaker 3: take a while. Okay, so but if everything goes wow,

884
00:53:01,662 --> 00:53:04,822
Speaker 3: you should be released today. She's like, you should be

885
00:53:04,822 --> 00:53:09,742
Speaker 3: released before six pm, and say, I'm excited. I've rung

886
00:53:09,822 --> 00:53:12,542
Speaker 3: up Crystal, like I'm getting out today. You need to

887
00:53:12,542 --> 00:53:15,142
Speaker 3: come and pick me up. And so this poor girl,

888
00:53:15,302 --> 00:53:20,822
Speaker 3: she's she's coming. She was waiting outside the prison for hours,

889
00:53:21,222 --> 00:53:24,702
Speaker 3: and I didn't hear anything back from the guard. Nothing.

890
00:53:25,342 --> 00:53:27,822
Speaker 3: We did the head count, and we all know that

891
00:53:27,902 --> 00:53:31,182
Speaker 3: once they've done the head count, that's it. Nobody leaves,

892
00:53:31,262 --> 00:53:34,342
Speaker 3: nobody comes it. And so I I don't think I'm

893
00:53:34,342 --> 00:53:39,022
Speaker 3: getting out, and literally it was such a down feeling

894
00:53:39,182 --> 00:53:44,382
Speaker 3: because that Saturday we were starting quarantine. And then so

895
00:53:44,422 --> 00:53:46,862
Speaker 3: I've gone and actually changed into my padama and I've

896
00:53:46,902 --> 00:53:50,262
Speaker 3: gone and use a burn a phone in the toilet,

897
00:53:50,502 --> 00:53:53,422
Speaker 3: just to tell Crystal, you know, just go home, don't

898
00:53:53,502 --> 00:53:57,542
Speaker 3: keep waiting around. And then the guard's called my name

899
00:53:58,462 --> 00:54:01,862
Speaker 3: and I'm either literally throwing this figure. I don't need

900
00:54:01,862 --> 00:54:05,742
Speaker 3: a bad behavior record now, and I've walked up and

901
00:54:05,822 --> 00:54:08,262
Speaker 3: it happened to be one of the guards who had

902
00:54:08,342 --> 00:54:11,022
Speaker 3: also received me, and she goes, what.

903
00:54:11,022 --> 00:54:11,502
Speaker 1: Are you doing?

904
00:54:11,742 --> 00:54:14,702
Speaker 3: I don't know. She goes, You've got a guilty looker

905
00:54:14,742 --> 00:54:16,982
Speaker 3: on your face. She's like, you don't know how to lie.

906
00:54:17,222 --> 00:54:19,502
Speaker 3: They'd got no, no, no, nothing, and she had a

907
00:54:19,502 --> 00:54:21,902
Speaker 3: piece of paper in a hand. She goes, you're ready,

908
00:54:22,662 --> 00:54:25,622
Speaker 3: and I'm here for what Like At this point, I

909
00:54:25,702 --> 00:54:28,942
Speaker 3: was so convinced that I wasn't getting out, and she goes,

910
00:54:29,302 --> 00:54:34,462
Speaker 3: it's time to go, and I literally going, fuck, no,

911
00:54:35,662 --> 00:54:38,822
Speaker 3: how's I have a rush to change? And everyone's coming

912
00:54:38,822 --> 00:54:42,382
Speaker 3: out just saying bye to me. And then when I

913
00:54:42,502 --> 00:54:45,742
Speaker 3: walked out of my passageway, the guards had actually opened

914
00:54:45,822 --> 00:54:48,382
Speaker 3: up the other passageways so people could say by to

915
00:54:48,422 --> 00:54:52,502
Speaker 3: me as well, which was quite overwhelming because I had

916
00:54:52,502 --> 00:54:55,062
Speaker 3: probably been one of the most hated people when I arrived,

917
00:54:55,702 --> 00:54:58,382
Speaker 3: so everyone was hugging me. And then I got sent

918
00:54:58,502 --> 00:55:01,462
Speaker 3: to medical to get checked over that I was in

919
00:55:01,502 --> 00:55:05,782
Speaker 3: the same condition that I arrived, and then I was out,

920
00:55:06,342 --> 00:55:09,222
Speaker 3: and when I was coming back from medical, you actually

921
00:55:09,302 --> 00:55:13,542
Speaker 3: have the pass or all the arts, and it was

922
00:55:13,622 --> 00:55:17,982
Speaker 3: really overwhelming because the guards were actually allowing people to

923
00:55:18,022 --> 00:55:20,102
Speaker 3: come out of each yard to say goodbye to me.

924
00:55:20,822 --> 00:55:25,262
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, emotional okay, And I was quite overwhelming because

925
00:55:25,422 --> 00:55:28,262
Speaker 3: I didn't think that I had made so much of

926
00:55:28,302 --> 00:55:32,422
Speaker 3: a difference that people would actually, I guess, feel that

927
00:55:32,542 --> 00:55:38,142
Speaker 3: kind of emotion with me. So they all saying goodbye

928
00:55:38,262 --> 00:55:42,062
Speaker 3: to me, thanking me, and then I walked. I walked

929
00:55:42,062 --> 00:55:45,822
Speaker 3: down and the guards stopped me, and she goes, if

930
00:55:45,822 --> 00:55:49,022
Speaker 3: you only saw the person that we will see wise,

931
00:55:50,742 --> 00:55:56,462
Speaker 3: that's it. And so I walked out the front. And

932
00:55:56,502 --> 00:55:58,662
Speaker 3: it was really weird now walking through the prison. I

933
00:55:58,702 --> 00:56:02,502
Speaker 3: didn't feel like prisoner. And so I walked out the front.

934
00:56:02,782 --> 00:56:06,982
Speaker 3: I was officially signed out of their books, and I

935
00:56:07,342 --> 00:56:10,382
Speaker 3: walked right up to the blue gate and kind of

936
00:56:10,582 --> 00:56:13,462
Speaker 3: stood back, and you know, all the guards coming to

937
00:56:13,462 --> 00:56:17,222
Speaker 3: say goodbye to me as well, and the lady who

938
00:56:17,302 --> 00:56:19,942
Speaker 3: was working the door, she gets you ready as a no,

939
00:56:21,022 --> 00:56:23,462
Speaker 3: so I'm not ready, So I don't know what wait

940
00:56:23,542 --> 00:56:27,942
Speaker 3: to me. On the other side, I was terrified, so scared.

941
00:56:27,662 --> 00:56:29,942
Speaker 1: What were you scared of life?

942
00:56:30,942 --> 00:56:35,222
Speaker 3: I didn't know how to pick myself up and keep going.

943
00:56:37,382 --> 00:56:41,502
Speaker 3: So I brought through the door and Crystal was still there,

944
00:56:41,542 --> 00:56:43,582
Speaker 3: and she was in her own little world. She was

945
00:56:43,622 --> 00:56:47,262
Speaker 3: actually hitting on an army guy to be precise. I

946
00:56:47,262 --> 00:56:49,422
Speaker 3: wanted to stand there and realized that they've come out.

947
00:56:49,582 --> 00:56:53,342
Speaker 3: She's screaming. She ran over to me, and you know,

948
00:56:53,422 --> 00:56:57,502
Speaker 3: I stood there and it was so surreal, like it

949
00:56:57,622 --> 00:57:01,382
Speaker 3: wasn't hitting me that I had just left prison and

950
00:57:01,462 --> 00:57:06,222
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be going back in there. And then obviously

951
00:57:06,222 --> 00:57:09,942
Speaker 3: we got in a taxi and going through like everyone

952
00:57:10,022 --> 00:57:13,502
Speaker 3: was ready in quarantine, so it was a ghost town.

953
00:57:14,462 --> 00:57:17,142
Speaker 3: So it didn't really give me that feeling off and

954
00:57:17,342 --> 00:57:19,542
Speaker 3: back in society. It was kind of like the oh,

955
00:57:19,982 --> 00:57:22,182
Speaker 3: all right, I'm out of prison. I've going to lock

956
00:57:22,302 --> 00:57:24,822
Speaker 3: myself in a room now because of quarantine.

957
00:57:27,822 --> 00:57:31,102
Speaker 1: I just loved that conversation and I wanted to keep going,

958
00:57:31,342 --> 00:57:35,542
Speaker 1: so we spoke more about her life after her time

959
00:57:35,622 --> 00:57:39,622
Speaker 1: in prison. Coming out was daunting, she says, but it

960
00:57:39,822 --> 00:57:43,022
Speaker 1: was much harder even than she could have imagined. Here's

961
00:57:43,062 --> 00:57:43,702
Speaker 1: a little taste.

962
00:57:44,182 --> 00:57:46,342
Speaker 3: I felt like every time I tried to take a

963
00:57:46,422 --> 00:57:49,062
Speaker 3: step forward in the right direction, I would just get

964
00:57:49,422 --> 00:57:52,582
Speaker 3: not back, or I'd hit a reap wall. Because I

965
00:57:52,622 --> 00:57:55,862
Speaker 3: couldn't work because I had no papers. I couldn't receive

966
00:57:56,022 --> 00:57:58,702
Speaker 3: money from my family because I had no papers, I

967
00:57:58,742 --> 00:58:02,142
Speaker 3: couldn't know anything. And then obviously the polstant fear of

968
00:58:02,582 --> 00:58:04,222
Speaker 3: when I had to go out and do food shopping

969
00:58:04,382 --> 00:58:06,742
Speaker 3: that if I got stopped by a police officer, well

970
00:58:06,742 --> 00:58:07,782
Speaker 3: I was going back to prison.

971
00:58:08,422 --> 00:58:10,982
Speaker 1: Because of her parole conditions, she I'm allowed to come

972
00:58:10,982 --> 00:58:13,582
Speaker 1: back to Australia, and also because it was COVID, she

973
00:58:13,702 --> 00:58:17,062
Speaker 1: couldn't even leave the house. But she wasn't going to

974
00:58:17,182 --> 00:58:20,302
Speaker 1: let her mistakes to find her. And what's really interesting

975
00:58:20,422 --> 00:58:23,822
Speaker 1: about this next phase of her life is how she

976
00:58:24,342 --> 00:58:27,862
Speaker 1: just shrugged off the shame. It's such a great conversation.

977
00:58:28,262 --> 00:58:30,942
Speaker 1: To listen to part two of my conversation with Cassie,

978
00:58:31,302 --> 00:58:34,062
Speaker 1: just click the link in the show notes. The executive

979
00:58:34,062 --> 00:58:36,942
Speaker 1: producer of No Filter is Kimberly Bradish, with sound production

980
00:58:37,302 --> 00:58:40,782
Speaker 1: by Madeline Juannu. I'm mea Friedman and thank you for

981
00:58:40,902 --> 00:58:41,862
Speaker 1: having me in your years.

982
00:58:45,942 --> 00:58:48,142
Speaker 2: If you're looking for something else to listen to, like

983
00:58:48,262 --> 00:58:50,902
Speaker 2: and follow all of our Mamma Mia podcasts, which are

984
00:58:50,942 --> 00:58:54,182
Speaker 2: currently bringing you Hot Pod Summer one hundred hours of

985
00:58:54,222 --> 00:58:58,942
Speaker 2: summer listens, from spicy conversations to incredible stories, fashion, beauty

986
00:58:59,142 --> 00:58:59,742
Speaker 2: and more.