Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Mama Mia.
Speaker 2: Out loud, it is what women are actually talking about
Speaker 2: on Monday, the twenty third of March.
Speaker 1: I'm Holly Wayne.
Speaker 3: Wright, I'm Claire Stevens, and I'm Amelia Lester.
Speaker 2: Do you like our new look ladies? I hate that
Speaker 2: I just said ladies. Let me just take that back,
Speaker 2: because I actually hate it when people say ladies to
Speaker 2: me and then I find myself.
Speaker 4: You know, guys.
Speaker 1: I know, So do you like our new look friends?
Speaker 3: I see I find ladies ironic. I use it ironically,
Speaker 3: So come on.
Speaker 1: Ladies, light ladies.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but absolutely love it. I love that I'm on it.
Speaker 3: Feel very included. There's been a lot of Chattney out
Speaker 3: louders group about like the positioning, like, yeah, trend all
Speaker 3: of them.
Speaker 5: On the end.
Speaker 3: Yeah, noticed that his very front and center.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's got a main character and.
Speaker 3: She does her main character energy.
Speaker 2: Mia elboweda waite towards the front tim the main character ategy,
Speaker 2: which is earned quite roundly. And but if you don't
Speaker 2: know what we're talking about, out louders, look at your phone,
Speaker 2: look at where you're listening to this. We've changed our artwork,
Speaker 2: We've changed our colors. I'm a big fan of the
Speaker 2: blue for obvious reasons. You know, I'm a blue person. Anyway,
Speaker 2: This is unimportant and nothing to do with what we're
Speaker 2: talking about today, but I just thought i'd mention it
Speaker 2: because we all do look very glorious in it.
Speaker 4: I thought Mia was on the end too.
Speaker 2: I thought she's sort of second from last. Anyway, I can't,
Speaker 2: I can't conjure it.
Speaker 3: No, neither look at it.
Speaker 4: Because I reassure myself. I was like, if Mia is
Speaker 4: on the end, then me being on the end is okay.
Speaker 2: If you two are on the end, Yes, we've bookended
Speaker 2: very well. I would suggest just all the rabble in
Speaker 2: the middle anyway, on our agenda for today. And we
Speaker 2: know that everywhere you look right now, everything's a bit panicky.
Speaker 2: We know there's a lot going on. We know we're
Speaker 2: all worried about our bottom lines. But today we're going
Speaker 2: to give you other things to think about and chew on,
Speaker 2: because there's enough of that out there already. Like there's
Speaker 2: a famous feminist who sharing all the details of her
Speaker 2: polyamorous marriage, but nobody wants to believe her.
Speaker 3: Plus why the late season of the Bachelorette in the
Speaker 3: US was pulled just days before the premiere.
Speaker 4: And I go deep on fuel prices.
Speaker 3: No, we don't know, we need to fill out her
Speaker 3: and close.
Speaker 6: We don't.
Speaker 2: Look, I'm sure there are some out louders out there
Speaker 2: who are like, we would like Amelia to give us
Speaker 2: a load out.
Speaker 1: We're like, no, no, no, We're not doing that today.
Speaker 4: I instead have a really shocking, actually new detail about
Speaker 4: the Coldplay kiss cam story that emerged via an OPRAH interview.
Speaker 2: First of all, though, in case you missed it, and
Speaker 2: I'm sure you didn't, my Saturday night, I'm sure was
Speaker 2: reflected around the country by many other people.
Speaker 1: Saturday night, I was on.
Speaker 2: The edge of my couch, like the absolute edge, balancing
Speaker 2: on my butt on the edge of the couch because
Speaker 2: the Matildas played Japan in the Asian Cup final and
Speaker 2: they lost, right, so they lost one nil.
Speaker 1: And the thing about this that it was such an
Speaker 1: exciting game. Did you watch.
Speaker 4: Sorry, I'm a terrible person.
Speaker 7: No you're not.
Speaker 1: You've been poorly and you've got a small child.
Speaker 2: Don't worry about it. Anyway, it was a very exciting game.
Speaker 2: Japan scored in the first half, really amazing goal, and
Speaker 2: then in the second half, it was just full on
Speaker 2: Matilda's attacking and they did everything right.
Speaker 1: They were playing so.
Speaker 2: Hard and everybody was amazing, but they just couldn't get
Speaker 2: it in the net, which is the way.
Speaker 1: That football goes sometimes.
Speaker 2: But I really wanted to shout out the amazing Matilda's
Speaker 2: because the pressure on those women to carry not only
Speaker 2: like you know, obviously they're professional sports people and they
Speaker 2: want to win, but with females sports people in those
Speaker 2: roles have all this added pressure.
Speaker 1: You're the inspiration for a nation, You're the inspiration for
Speaker 1: the next generation. All the school girls of the world
Speaker 1: look up to you and stuff.
Speaker 2: And watching them all react in the next twenty four
Speaker 2: hours to the fact that they tried their absolute hardest
Speaker 2: but didn't make it was actually really inspiring. It was
Speaker 2: they all took it very hard, and they all sort
Speaker 2: of said, you know, we gave it everything, all those things,
Speaker 2: but you know, if you've got to be a role model,
Speaker 2: and we do put a lot of pressure on female
Speaker 2: sports people to be role models. Role modeling trying really
Speaker 2: really hard and being really really good at what you
Speaker 2: do but still not always getting what you want. It's
Speaker 2: actually really brilliant and important.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 2: Thank you Matilda's for being credible. I know they're all
Speaker 2: on their planes home to go back and play in
Speaker 2: England and Europe and all over the place, and I
Speaker 2: hope they're listening to out Loud on their way back
Speaker 2: and you can hear us just sending loads of love.
Speaker 1: You're amazing.
Speaker 3: You may have seen a story all over your news
Speaker 3: feeds over the weekend about how the latest season of
Speaker 3: The Bachelorette in the US has been pulled. Now, when
Speaker 3: I saw this, I didn't realize that it was actually
Speaker 3: meant to premiere on Sunday Night.
Speaker 4: Has gone to air, No, none.
Speaker 3: Of it's going to air, But I didn't realize it
Speaker 3: was being pulled that last minute.
Speaker 4: How much would that be costing the network?
Speaker 3: Between forty and fifty million dollars?
Speaker 1: Wow?
Speaker 2: And is so Obviously in Australia we've kind of kai
Speaker 2: bosted The Bachelor and the Bachelorette now, but in America
Speaker 2: is still a big deal.
Speaker 3: Yes, And what they did was they clearly went a
Speaker 3: bit different and they wanted to have an anti hero
Speaker 3: Bachelorette kind of remember when we had Sophie Monk that
Speaker 3: was such a success, Like, we love having a bit
Speaker 3: of a kind of square peg roundhole bachelorette that everyone's
Speaker 3: gonna wank.
Speaker 2: And also it's clever to have somebody who's already got
Speaker 2: a profile exact And is that what they did with this?
Speaker 1: Isn't she an influencer?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 3: So the woman who was meant to helm this new
Speaker 3: season is Taylor Frankie Paul. She was originally known as
Speaker 3: a Mum influencer, then for her role on Secret Lives
Speaker 3: of Mormon Wives, which is a reality show that follows
Speaker 3: a group of Mormon women whose lives often clash with
Speaker 3: Mormon values.
Speaker 1: That's what I know.
Speaker 2: We don't want a sidebar on this, but I started
Speaker 2: watching that show once because I was like, oh, I
Speaker 2: want to know what this I've seen? What was that
Speaker 2: show I used to watch about Sister Wives That was amazing,
Speaker 2: big love, Oh my god love, and it was all
Speaker 2: about like secret garments and all this, like golf. And
Speaker 2: then I watched that one and those women they didn't
Speaker 2: seem to be holding anything back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty out there.
Speaker 3: It's very Mormon, but not Mormon controversy. Yes. So Taylor
Speaker 3: in particular was involved in the soft swinging scandal that
Speaker 3: was a big thing in twenty twenty two, which again
Speaker 3: not very Mormon. That's not in the scriptures. So she's
Speaker 3: cast on the Bachelorette.
Speaker 4: That's not scriptures, it's not I'm so glad to hear.
Speaker 4: I don't know what's in them, but I don't think
Speaker 4: swinging and Mormon.
Speaker 3: And it wasn't in there from memory. So she's cast
Speaker 3: on the Bachelorette. And she again, she's a Utah Mum
Speaker 3: influencer who is known for having a very turbulent relationship
Speaker 3: with her ex partner, which had been reality TV fought up.
Speaker 3: So they're broken up, that they have two kids to do.
Speaker 4: And were they broken up in secret lives of Mormon wives.
Speaker 3: So their tumultuous relationship was very much a PLoP P
Speaker 3: got it?
Speaker 2: Yes, And I know I might be pushing your knowledge
Speaker 2: of the scripture.
Speaker 1: Here, class. Clearly Mormons are allowed to get divorced.
Speaker 2: Clearly they are right, well I thought they were, but
Speaker 2: clearly if she's on the Bachelorette.
Speaker 3: I'm sure they are. But they were never married. Oh,
Speaker 3: they were together, had two kids, split up. So ABC
Speaker 3: in the US has given her this fairy tale edit.
Speaker 3: She was literally on the Oscars Red Carpet last week.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah yeah, so they're like, you know, everyone deserves
Speaker 3: a happy ending, but her seasons due to air. And
Speaker 3: at the end of last week, TMZ a video it's
Speaker 3: shot on a smartphone of Frankie Paul fighting with her
Speaker 3: ex Dakota Mortensen in their home with their five year
Speaker 3: old daughter present. It was recorded in twenty twenty three,
Speaker 3: and I don't actually advise that anyone watch it. I
Speaker 3: wish I hadn't.
Speaker 1: That's it quite. It's confronting you.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's it's very blurry, but it's more the sounds
Speaker 3: that you don't want to hear, because it shows Frankie
Speaker 3: Paul launching herself at her partner at the time, pulling
Speaker 3: his hair, and she's throwing chairs at him, and then
Speaker 3: it looks like at one point one of the chairs
Speaker 3: hits the five year old and she shots, and that
Speaker 3: sound of the sound of a child crying is just
Speaker 3: so viscerally disturbing.
Speaker 1: Did this video come from nowhere?
Speaker 3: Well, they think once she gave a statement, it's clear
Speaker 3: she believes it came from him, that it was leaked
Speaker 3: from him. So ABC announced that take Frankie Paul's season
Speaker 3: of The Bachelorette would not be airing, and as we've said,
Speaker 3: that cancelation.
Speaker 1: Is costing them a statish a huge deal.
Speaker 2: Shouldn't they have done their due diligence before this, Like
Speaker 2: did they know before the video gets leaked that she
Speaker 2: had this? I'm going to use the word problematic, even
Speaker 2: though it sounds much more serious than that about this
Speaker 2: problematic incident in her past.
Speaker 3: This is what is the elephant in the room. Is
Speaker 3: that what this video shows, which is violence, isn't actually
Speaker 3: news to anyone. Shouldn't be news to anyone, shouldn't be
Speaker 3: news to ABC, shouldn't be news to anyone who's watched
Speaker 3: Secret Lives of Mormon wives. Because Mortensen filed domestic violence
Speaker 3: charges against Frankie Paul in February twenty twenty three, two
Speaker 3: years ago, Frankie Paul struck a deal in which she
Speaker 3: pleaded guilty to one count of aggravated assault, a third
Speaker 3: degree felony, and had the other charges dismissed, including the
Speaker 3: domestic violence charges. But that fight and its aftermath were
Speaker 3: a plot point in season one of Secret Lives of
Speaker 3: Mormon Why.
Speaker 1: So it was more than an open secret?
Speaker 3: YEP YEP, so it showed her interactions with local police
Speaker 3: that that was all filmed. So it seems like it
Speaker 3: was fine when it was for reality TV, and then
Speaker 3: when we actually see the reality of it, it's suddenly
Speaker 3: absolutely not fine. Holly, do you think we've sanitized violence
Speaker 3: so much that it's not until we actually see footage
Speaker 3: that we realize how abhorrent it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I think that. I mean,
Speaker 2: obviously I shouldn't say it goes without saying, but obviously
Speaker 2: any kind of violence is abhorrent. Domestic violence statistics are
Speaker 2: overwhelmingly that usually the perpetrator is a man, but obviously
Speaker 2: in this instance that isn't the case. It's amazing that
Speaker 2: it was excused or most trivialized and seen a bit
Speaker 2: of a fun scandal until you see it.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing.
Speaker 2: And this is what I always say to my son about,
Speaker 2: you know, or about violent video games and things, is like,
Speaker 2: when you've got that removed distance between you and an
Speaker 2: act of violence, it's easy to not have empathy.
Speaker 1: It's easy to.
Speaker 2: See it as some kind of sport, almost, But anyone
Speaker 2: who sees violence up close in real life, you suddenly
Speaker 2: see this very different human impact, and so it seems
Speaker 2: to me incredibly cynical. I mean, I don't know all
Speaker 2: the ins and outs, but on the face of it,
Speaker 2: it seems incredibly cynical that they were like, she'll be
Speaker 2: a great bachelorette because I don't know, maybe she's feisty,
Speaker 2: she's got a big following, she's really attractive. We know
Speaker 2: she's probably going to cause some drama. And then you're
Speaker 2: confronted with no, this is why she has this reputation,
Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, we didn't know it was that bad.
Speaker 1: It's like, well, what did you think.
Speaker 4: She literally pled guilty to aggravated assault. She I believe that,
Speaker 4: as you mentioned, the domestic lines charges would dropped, but
Speaker 4: it's just a shame to me that this was actually
Speaker 4: adjudicated legally and she was found liable, and yet the
Speaker 4: TV network, as you say, just thought that was a fun,
Speaker 4: racy plot point.
Speaker 3: And it makes me think about all the times there
Speaker 3: are men on our screens right now who have been
Speaker 3: found guilty of all kinds of crimes, and we do
Speaker 3: kind of think, like I honestly think that those terms
Speaker 3: have become so widely used and so familiar that you
Speaker 3: genuinely don't picture what it actually looks like. And I
Speaker 3: think if any of us saw footage of what a
Speaker 3: lot of high profile people are accused of, we just
Speaker 3: could not endorse them.
Speaker 1: So what are the things going to happen?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 2: I mean, because they've obviously spent a fortune making this show,
Speaker 2: elevating this woman to a certain position, and now they're
Speaker 2: just they have to can it? Are they talking about
Speaker 2: there being any repercussions? Like what might happen next?
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's very much because I.
Speaker 2: Think I saw some shots of her wearing some T
Speaker 2: shirt that was a bit provocative and like almost as
Speaker 2: if she's just playing it along with it.
Speaker 3: Well, her statement was interesting in the wake of it.
Speaker 3: So she responded to the video's release through a representative
Speaker 3: to people, and the response said, releasing an old video,
Speaker 3: which conveniently omits context is a reprehensible attempt to distract
Speaker 3: from his own behavior. Right, So about her.
Speaker 2: Ex So she might be insinuating that there was violence
Speaker 2: on his part, Yes, not that we you know, Yes.
Speaker 3: But it's a fascinating statement because you just think there's
Speaker 3: absolutely no excuse. There's no there is no excuse for
Speaker 3: the violence that you that you saw in that video
Speaker 3: and it was not the response that the public needed.
Speaker 4: My question is, did you watch the show Secret Lives
Speaker 4: of Moms. I wonder if part of it was that
Speaker 4: that also kind of sanitized it and just dismissed it,
Speaker 4: and so they thought they could get away with this.
Speaker 3: Yes. Yes, And interestingly, both the production company that created
Speaker 3: Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and production company that are
Speaker 3: doing the Bachroolette the Bachelorette are both owned by Disney,
Speaker 3: and so it is very interesting one that it's Disney
Speaker 3: and that it's kind of this fairy tale idea, but
Speaker 3: also that it's the same you know, it's the same
Speaker 3: powers that be that clearly thought, Okay, this is the
Speaker 3: kind of scandal that gets us ratings, and this is
Speaker 3: the kind of person who gets us ratings. And now
Speaker 3: have turned around and said, oh, not like.
Speaker 1: That, not like that.
Speaker 4: After the break, the things that we did at primary
Speaker 4: school that we should also do at work.
Speaker 3: Have you ever been at work and thought, why did
Speaker 3: I fight nap time so hard in pre school? That's
Speaker 3: me every day around midday? What I would do for
Speaker 3: a little cot and some quiet time, maybe a lovely
Speaker 3: person stroking my back telling me to relax. How did
Speaker 3: I take it? So? For granted that my mum packed
Speaker 3: my lunch, but then also sometimes forgot, so sometimes she
Speaker 3: did a lunch shorder and it smelt so good and
Speaker 3: the oil kind of went through the paper and you're
Speaker 3: like meat pie. Well, last week, our brilliant ep Ruth
Speaker 3: shared a video to all of us with absolutely no context.
Speaker 3: It was an Instagram reel of a British man sharing
Speaker 3: the things that he did at primary school that he
Speaker 3: thought we should also do it work, And holy wow,
Speaker 3: I knew Ruth was a genius, but my goodness, here's
Speaker 3: a few suggestions that digital content creator Freddie Allison had
Speaker 3: for us.
Speaker 4: All I think we should mention that he was talking
Speaker 4: into a microphone fashion from a toilet rush.
Speaker 3: Fact no nice an expert, yes, absolutely taking himself very serious.
Speaker 8: Here are some things we did at primary score that
Speaker 8: we should also do at work. Leave at quarter past three,
Speaker 8: occasionally watch Shrek to on a Friday afternoon, play with
Speaker 8: this thing, mark each other's work. I'm looking at you, Linda,
Speaker 8: cry because you want to go home? Played up duck
Speaker 8: Goose in the conference room. Yearly trip to the zoo,
Speaker 8: dress up because it's World Book Day. Have thirteen weeks
Speaker 8: off every year, get chosen by your boss to take
Speaker 8: a note to the office down the hallway, go on
Speaker 8: the apparatus, get picked up by your mum because your
Speaker 8: stomach hurts, and run around screaming because there's a dog outside.
Speaker 1: Oh so good, ever good.
Speaker 3: It is simply all I've thought about. One of the
Speaker 3: comments was play heads down thumbs up because there's only
Speaker 3: a few minutes left of the day and it's not
Speaker 3: enough time to start anything. I'm like, yea more of that, Amelia,
Speaker 3: What would you like.
Speaker 4: To unlocked a core memory for a week? Because it's
Speaker 4: raining in Sydney today? And it just reminded me that
Speaker 4: whenever it range, teachers would bang on at EHS or
Speaker 4: something or other and I love that.
Speaker 9: Why should I.
Speaker 4: Be working when I should be watching a weird nineteen
Speaker 4: eighties BBC series about children who are also coal miners.
Speaker 4: I feel like that was always what I.
Speaker 6: Have to know.
Speaker 1: This will you will wheel the TV?
Speaker 2: You see the TV be wielded and you're like, yeah,
Speaker 2: it was so good.
Speaker 4: Sick bay. We need a sick bay, not because you're
Speaker 4: actually sick, but because you just need a place to
Speaker 4: be just with a little plastic curtain that you can
Speaker 4: pull across, just a little bit of silence, and a
Speaker 4: kindly school nurse just coming by saying are you doing okay? Last,
Speaker 4: that's what I need.
Speaker 3: You need in between space between being a work being
Speaker 3: at home.
Speaker 4: Yes, healthy Harald visits, except this time the giraffe that
Speaker 4: comes to the school in the van is telling us
Speaker 4: all about how to be healthy as an adult, which,
Speaker 4: as we all know, is repeat after me, protein flossying,
Speaker 4: resistance training, this is, and then finally, I just want
Speaker 4: to say, pencil cases. I know it's not a thing
Speaker 4: to do, but nothing gives me more joy than a
Speaker 4: pencil case.
Speaker 3: I need colors. Why don't I have colors? I don't true?
Speaker 1: Why don't I need to bring all my coloring pens in?
Speaker 2: I would like gold stars for good work and participation
Speaker 2: medals when I don't quite reach.
Speaker 1: But I don't quite reach the mark.
Speaker 2: Today, Holly, after out loud, you get a participation medal
Speaker 2: good trying.
Speaker 1: I tried really hard.
Speaker 4: Yeah, if it's not rewarded enough in adult.
Speaker 2: No, it's really not. I'd like quiet time and a
Speaker 2: little lunch. In fact, I often have a little lunch
Speaker 2: I was thinking about that often before this record.
Speaker 1: I'll have a little lunch with a little.
Speaker 4: Bit of a Brooklyn Beckham hot sauce.
Speaker 1: Yes, crunch and sip.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I would like to be able to point at
Speaker 2: one of my coworkers and just says it was when
Speaker 2: something goes wrong, and for that to be accepted. Have
Speaker 2: you finished the record yet, I'm not frowned upon. It
Speaker 2: would be like accountability.
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, it was her.
Speaker 2: I used to wear because it was a long time
Speaker 2: ago and it was in England, it was cold. I
Speaker 2: used to wear a matching woolen polar neck and wooly
Speaker 2: tights with a cordroy.
Speaker 4: Sorry that sounds like CBK level side.
Speaker 1: And I used to wear that to my primary school.
Speaker 2: And when I think about that outfit now, I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 2: it was rocking.
Speaker 3: Was it itchy?
Speaker 1: Though? We'd all go like this.
Speaker 2: I was always going like this, so like pulling up
Speaker 2: our collars, pulling it out and trying to like because
Speaker 2: it was really itchy, but it was cool.
Speaker 1: It was some cloth kits.
Speaker 2: Actually, considering my gross children, I would also like a
Speaker 2: return of the knit nurse. We used to have a
Speaker 2: woman who'd come in and go through your hair, and
Speaker 2: it was so embarrassing.
Speaker 1: And she'd get you all in the hall and go
Speaker 1: through your hair and then be like.
Speaker 2: You home, you home, you nurse, and you'd be like,
Speaker 2: oh no, the knit nurse came and I'd like a
Speaker 2: little sewing session like the first when you're having a
Speaker 2: bit of downtime. We used to make like caterpillar pencil cases.
Speaker 1: We could make pencil case crafts.
Speaker 4: Crafts, yes, more craft carpentry.
Speaker 2: Yes. Remember Actually when we first moved into this office
Speaker 2: at Mama Mia, we were all encouraged to craft our
Speaker 2: water bottles.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I think I've got mine.
Speaker 4: There we go.
Speaker 1: Mine's got a little b on it.
Speaker 2: And that was the most fun I've had it work
Speaker 2: in a really long time. And I was not very
Speaker 2: creative at all. If you're watching this on video on Apple,
Speaker 2: you can.
Speaker 4: See my beat.
Speaker 1: But more crafting please, crafting corner.
Speaker 3: That's very primary school coded mineor genuinely, why don't we
Speaker 3: do news, slash show and tell anymore.
Speaker 1: On Monday mornings.
Speaker 4: You're on a podcast, I know, but it's.
Speaker 3: Not like I don't have a big enough physical audience.
Speaker 3: I want to share in front of and tell them.
Speaker 3: One story from my weekend, and.
Speaker 4: I want people to be h tell into your drive.
Speaker 3: I know that's actually very true.
Speaker 2: That is what people are doing in the kitchen on
Speaker 2: Monday mornings right there are people say how is your weekend?
Speaker 2: And depending on your energy levels, you're either like it
Speaker 2: was amazing, this happened, and this happened, just like fine.
Speaker 2: But if you had to bring something tore your weekend,
Speaker 2: and in this office full of young people, sometimes it
Speaker 2: might be an empty bottle of.
Speaker 3: Rows, the story that goes along job of the movie ticket.
Speaker 3: I also would like to bring back swimming and athletics carnival.
Speaker 4: I wouldn't Did you actually enjoy these?
Speaker 3: I enjoyed participating. It's more that I'm curious about other people.
Speaker 1: I want to swim.
Speaker 4: Running in her corduroy skirt. I don't want to see
Speaker 4: anyone in this swimmer.
Speaker 1: If we had a running race, would win?
Speaker 4: Would?
Speaker 3: I think?
Speaker 4: Would us wildly flattered right now? But I definitely a
Speaker 4: lot of cannibals. I generally said that I have my
Speaker 4: period regardless of see that's another thing I use to
Speaker 4: do in high school. It's probably a bit of a delinquent,
Speaker 4: but I never wanted to do pe. I always have
Speaker 4: my period. I've tried saying on this podcast, like I
Speaker 4: can't do it because I have my period, and producer
Speaker 4: Ruth is unimpressed. Everyone like there are free tampons in
Speaker 4: the bathroom.
Speaker 2: By high school and the matildas would not approve of this.
Speaker 2: I would always try and be picked last for all
Speaker 2: the sports because so I just keep going at the back,
Speaker 2: and as the numbers dwindled, I've got start at the
Speaker 2: back again. So we could just do that with the
Speaker 2: Podco's on the pod today and I just got hide
Speaker 2: behind him.
Speaker 4: What about me? Actually that's a.
Speaker 1: Representation on our new logo.
Speaker 3: We're all trying to stand behind each other. I would
Speaker 3: also like I always liked assembly at school because I
Speaker 3: like watching people sing and dance. You know, when people
Speaker 3: did a performance that was lovely. I liked when Mum
Speaker 3: picked me up for an orthodontist appointment and we'd get
Speaker 3: a donut and or a chocolate milkshake on the way.
Speaker 3: It was really special.
Speaker 2: I just thought about the singing and dancing is you
Speaker 2: know when there's a big album them out that the
Speaker 2: new Taylor Swift album comes out, Oh Harry Styles last week,
Speaker 2: myself and Tessa, who works on this show, we could,
Speaker 2: if you like, stand up and give you a full
Speaker 2: rendition all the time occasionally.
Speaker 1: Would you like that?
Speaker 10: Yes?
Speaker 3: And I'm sure someone in this office can sing, and
Speaker 3: I would just like this song because my answering. I
Speaker 3: just want to watch.
Speaker 2: After the break, one of the most iconic millennial feminists
Speaker 2: has opened up about the true state of a polyamorous marriage,
Speaker 2: and nobody can get enough.
Speaker 9: My only currency in life was like, does a harm
Speaker 9: like me? How does a harm feel? What's a harmdoing?
Speaker 9: And if I didn't have that, I was like nothing.
Speaker 9: Polyamory is like the perfect antidote to codependency.
Speaker 6: Some of the stereotypes it is that how could there
Speaker 6: be enough to go around? Enough time, enough attention, enough love.
Speaker 4: I have the greatest love in my life right now
Speaker 4: than I've ever had before, and it has never felt
Speaker 4: this good. You know, we're told this is too good
Speaker 4: to be trial.
Speaker 2: Okay, So I know that we've all been following the
Speaker 2: discourse that's been happening online over the past week about
Speaker 2: Lindy West, But I'm sure that lots of people listening
Speaker 2: to this don't know who Lindy West is.
Speaker 1: So a Meily. How would you characterize her?
Speaker 2: She's obviously she's a writer, a prominent feminist screenwriter, article writer.
Speaker 2: Where would you sort of put her in the culture.
Speaker 4: She kind of was the feminist writer in for millennials.
Speaker 4: She peeked in that sort of the early twenty tens.
Speaker 4: She wrote for a website called Jezebel that was very
Speaker 4: famous for its feminist hop takes. She was very active
Speaker 4: on Twitter. She had this movement called hashtag shot your Abortion,
Speaker 4: because it was back when we thought that if you
Speaker 4: put a hashtag in front of a phrase, it makes
Speaker 4: it cooler. And then she wrote like really kind of edgy,
Speaker 4: very controversial at the time, takes that kind of pushed
Speaker 4: feminism forward. So she used to have a column called
Speaker 4: hell Oh I Am Fat because she was known for
Speaker 4: her body positivity. She wrote this essay called how to
Speaker 4: Make a Rape Joke where she basically called out the
Speaker 4: misogyny that was so rampant in stand up comedy that
Speaker 4: no one kind of realized until the twenty tens. And
Speaker 4: she she was very much peak millennial feminism.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I remember there was this iconic episode of
Speaker 2: This American Life which very much puts all this in context.
Speaker 2: This was in the twenty thirteens where she tracked down
Speaker 2: an internet troll of hers.
Speaker 1: It's actually an amazing.
Speaker 4: It's one of the best I would say audio experience
Speaker 4: one hundred and seven.
Speaker 1: So big, big deal.
Speaker 2: So that's sir Lindy west Is. You might have You
Speaker 2: might also be familiar with her work. She wrote a
Speaker 2: memoir called Shrill, which was a big success in New
Speaker 2: York Times Bestseller and then it got picked up and
Speaker 2: turned into a really well received TV show. You might
Speaker 2: have heard her when she was at the peak of
Speaker 2: all of that kind of internet culture writing. She came
Speaker 2: on No Filter and spoke to me about Shrill. I
Speaker 2: think back in twenty seventeen. So she's a big deal.
Speaker 2: The reason we're talking about her She's got a new
Speaker 2: memoir at we talked about memoirs on Friday and about
Speaker 2: the importance of truth or or not when it comes
Speaker 2: to memoir. Lindy's new memoir is called Adult Braces, and
Speaker 2: it kind of picks up a bit where Shrill left off,
Speaker 2: which is at the end of Shrill. So Lindy, obviously,
Speaker 2: as Amelia said, was written about all these important feminist issues.
Speaker 1: In twenty fifteen, Lindy got married.
Speaker 2: She married her partner, musician and writer ahamafule Oluo, who
Speaker 2: she always refers to as Aham. Right, So she and
Speaker 2: Araham married.
Speaker 1: I remember the.
Speaker 2: Pictures so clearly, this beautiful, very like hipster wedding.
Speaker 4: And shrill very much kind of ended with the happy
Speaker 4: ending of them together and married.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then in twenty twenty two, so seven years
Speaker 2: after their marriage, Lindy and Aham and another woman called
Speaker 2: Roya came out as it were, as a thropple, so
Speaker 2: that there are three of them in their relationship, and
Speaker 2: they talked about their polyamory. So it's not new that
Speaker 2: that's her domestic arrangement she lives. And this is why,
Speaker 2: in lots of ways, Lindy West has become in this
Speaker 2: moment get to twenty twenty six, a kind of almost
Speaker 2: like a conservative commentators fantasy.
Speaker 1: Of what a really woke lefty is.
Speaker 2: Like, you know, she lives in a cabin in the
Speaker 2: woods in the Pacific Northwest, and she's got a nose
Speaker 2: ring and she's living with her you know, two in
Speaker 2: her thropple, which I think they call a closed triad,
Speaker 2: Like it's it kind of ticks a lot of boxes
Speaker 2: of stereotypical lefty jokes for those people well.
Speaker 4: And also we should mention that that twenty twenty two
Speaker 4: video that is online where they come out as a thruple,
Speaker 4: I think it's safe to say it made a lot
Speaker 4: of people uncomfortable, not just conservatives. I think a lot
Speaker 4: of people saw. What they thought they saw in that
Speaker 4: video was that Lindy West had kind of settled for
Speaker 4: a relationship where she would always be second best to Roya.
Speaker 4: This was how it was received online and part of.
Speaker 2: That, Let's be really honest, and Lindy talked about this herself,
Speaker 2: and she thinks this is one of the reasons why
Speaker 2: people struggle with a lot is Roya is kind of
Speaker 2: conventionally sort of tiny and attractive in a way that
Speaker 2: Lindy has often written about not feeling so people reading
Speaker 2: a lot into that relationship, even though Lindy West herself
Speaker 2: has always been very open about it. Anyway, fast forward
Speaker 2: to now and why we're talking about it today. There
Speaker 2: is a new memoir that Linda's written called Adult Braces.
Speaker 2: The memoir follows Lindy driving across the US after finding
Speaker 2: out that Aham, who identifies as non binary but also
Speaker 2: uses the pronouns hear him says he wants to open
Speaker 2: up the marriage and how basically it's the story of
Speaker 2: how they got from that wedding day to being in
Speaker 2: this closed triad in the woods, and the internet has
Speaker 2: lost its mind. Claire Stevens, what are the kind of
Speaker 2: things they're saying.
Speaker 3: So the kind of discourse, as Amelia said, it's sort
Speaker 3: of started with that video where the three of them
Speaker 3: came out with this is what our relationship structure looks like.
Speaker 3: And there was a lot of backlash about an analysis
Speaker 3: of body language and whether this was what Linda really wanted,
Speaker 3: which was a bit like kind of condescending, and so
Speaker 3: that was kind of the discourse. Then she's written this
Speaker 3: memoir and it's that intensified times a million.
Speaker 2: So there are a million headlines on substack, for example,
Speaker 2: that are all about how she looks like she's in
Speaker 2: polyamory under juress.
Speaker 4: Not just on substack. There's an article in the Atlantic
Speaker 4: which simply says, I don't believe her when she says
Speaker 4: she's happy in this relationship.
Speaker 3: And there's another substack that calls it train wreck feminism
Speaker 3: and talks about women who convince themselves that they're happy
Speaker 3: in a particular arrangement and that they chose it when
Speaker 3: it's almost like watching someone self harm. So there's basically
Speaker 3: a lot of concern and whether you'd call that faux
Speaker 3: concern performative concern for Lindy West.
Speaker 2: So she's addressed a bit of this in an Instagram
Speaker 2: live that she posted the other day. She said, just
Speaker 2: to frame this before you hear it. So she's driving
Speaker 2: in a car when she's talking, so that explains.
Speaker 1: The audio a bit.
Speaker 2: But she says, I know I shouldn't respond, She said,
Speaker 2: I know I shouldn't bite it back, but some of
Speaker 2: this is wild. She sort of explains that Ahammad said
Speaker 2: from the beginning that he wasn't going to be monogamous,
Speaker 2: so she sort of frames it as she was making
Speaker 2: him perform monogamy under duress. And she says the argument
Speaker 2: that the book is a sort of manual on polyamory
Speaker 2: is wrong. This is what she says in a part
Speaker 2: of that.
Speaker 10: Her book is not a polyamory game. First of all,
Speaker 10: the book, most of the book is not even about polyamory.
Speaker 10: So and either way, all the stuff in the book
Speaker 10: that's not about polyamory, where I am going through these
Speaker 10: like hard fought mental health battles. Alhama's instrumental in supporting,
Speaker 10: in helping me through all of those. I don't know
Speaker 10: how to even quantify the ways that a harm held
Speaker 10: me up for those years. It's all for fifteen years now,
Speaker 10: you know, And like, show me any couple that doesn't
Speaker 10: have some problems. I don't. It's like and I just
Speaker 10: tried to write an honest book and it just so happens.
Speaker 10: And I say this a little bit, that my experience
Speaker 10: is easier for the mainstream narrative to empathize with than
Speaker 10: a harm.
Speaker 1: Yes, I want to be a pain supponent. I have
Speaker 1: not read this book, and I bet that most of.
Speaker 2: The people who are critiquing it online have also not
Speaker 2: read this book.
Speaker 1: But why do you think people are so upset?
Speaker 3: One thing I find fascinating and that there has then
Speaker 3: been discourse about the discourse and all of that because
Speaker 3: Lindy has commented, So she's done that video, she's done
Speaker 3: a substack post kind of engage with the criticism, and
Speaker 3: it's not the criticism isn't criticism of her. It is
Speaker 3: actually more criticism of a harm. And basically a lot
Speaker 3: of people are saying there's a difference between a transparent,
Speaker 3: mutually agreed upon polyamorous relationship and one where there's cheating involved.
Speaker 3: And by Lindy's account in her book and in the interviews,
Speaker 3: and that's the other thing I agree. People haven't read
Speaker 3: the book, but there is a modern love, very detailed
Speaker 3: modern love.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of source material out there.
Speaker 3: There's a slave profile. There actually is a lot that
Speaker 3: has come directly from her. By Lindy West's own account,
Speaker 3: she was not comfortable with being in a non monogamous
Speaker 3: relationship and it was presented to her by a harm
Speaker 3: as an ultimatum to her at a time where she
Speaker 3: was grieving her father and she didn't want a harm
Speaker 3: to leave her, so she tacitly agreed in the sense
Speaker 3: that she was. She says she was kicking it down
Speaker 3: the line, hoping that it would never actually come to fruition.
Speaker 1: It's kind of what you want, but whatever exactly.
Speaker 3: Then she hears through a fan of hers that Aham
Speaker 3: was hooking up with another woman in a bar in
Speaker 3: the neighborhood. So, Holly, imagine how you would feel if
Speaker 3: somebody if if an out louder said, hey, just saw
Speaker 3: Brent hooking up with somebody and the humiliation because obviously
Speaker 3: other people don't don't know and as far as she knows,
Speaker 3: that's not happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but she the way that this story unfolds, the
Speaker 2: understand it issue, that's all in the past, right, So
Speaker 2: this all happened. He cheated on her, That's how they
Speaker 2: kind of worked out. Like she was like, oh, he
Speaker 2: meant it about that, which is why she was saying
Speaker 2: in that thing there was monogamy under duress and then
Speaker 2: that led them through the But why does nobody want
Speaker 2: to believe her about where they're at now?
Speaker 3: I don't even know if it's well. I think one
Speaker 3: aspect of it that I find really interesting is that
Speaker 3: part of millennial Internet writing was vulnerability and was showing
Speaker 3: your skuf personal essay, yes, and was very much and
Speaker 3: Lindy West has written she wrote about in Shrill, and
Speaker 3: she has talked about it in these interviews where she
Speaker 3: has said, I have never had a functional relationship where
Speaker 3: somebody just puts me on a pedestal and loves me
Speaker 3: like that is not what was ever presented to me
Speaker 3: as an option. And so people are sort of reading
Speaker 3: into this and thinking well, if that was never presented
Speaker 3: to you as an option, then maybe you think this
Speaker 3: is the only option and they're analyzing it to death.
Speaker 2: But what about her point that, like, they've been together
Speaker 2: for nearly two decades and he's her number one supporter
Speaker 2: and they're madly in love. Why do you think do
Speaker 2: you think we're just we are like we don't want
Speaker 2: to And I'm not suggesting that here on this podcast
Speaker 2: we're going to prosecute whether or not that's true. I
Speaker 2: want to I'm prosecuting like that conversation that we will
Speaker 2: not believe it. It's almost like there is not a
Speaker 2: world in which we like hearing that there could be
Speaker 2: another version of marriage other than the traditional one we like.
Speaker 4: Yes, I think Lindy would have answers to that. I
Speaker 4: think she would point to sizism because, as mentioned, Roya
Speaker 4: is a small woman and Lindy describes herself as fat.
Speaker 4: And I think Lindy would also point to racism because
Speaker 4: Aham is a person of color and she has spoken
Speaker 4: about how she feels that a lot of the discussion
Speaker 4: around monogamy is inherently white centric. That's what Lindy would
Speaker 4: say in answer to the question of why are people
Speaker 4: so unable to believe her?
Speaker 3: When you write a memoir and when you then go
Speaker 3: and promote that memoir and you're interviewed and you share
Speaker 3: your story, people automatically the point of empathy is Lindy right.
Speaker 1: People like when you hear we we know her right?
Speaker 3: Yes? And you know her and so when she tells
Speaker 3: you something, you you I mean, contrary to a lot
Speaker 3: of this commentary, you do trust her as a voice,
Speaker 3: and you do empathize with her. The really tricky thing
Speaker 3: is that in this book and in those interviews, she
Speaker 3: is telling us that a Harm did horrible things. There
Speaker 3: is a part in the book where she writes, when
Speaker 3: Ahm was hooking up with the woman in their neighborhood,
Speaker 3: that Harm did things that were really bad that she's
Speaker 3: not going to put in the book, and that would
Speaker 3: have made her entirely justified in leaving their marriage. And
Speaker 3: that's what she doesn't include.
Speaker 2: Yeah. She also says, though, that they both did a
Speaker 2: lot of shitty things. She said, we're in that video
Speaker 2: that I was just playing a bit obvious. She says,
Speaker 2: this is a story about emotionally immature people hurting each other.
Speaker 1: Yes, so I guess what I'm asking is like, that's
Speaker 1: her story.
Speaker 2: Yes, And I feel like if someone's going to tell
Speaker 2: you their memoir and they're going to say, you know,
Speaker 2: all these complicated things happen in my relationship, but at
Speaker 2: the moment, this is where my relationships at and I'm.
Speaker 1: Quite happy in it.
Speaker 2: I find it really interesting that most of the pushback
Speaker 2: is just like, we don't believe.
Speaker 3: I think there's also she so she's told this story,
Speaker 3: and she has shown herself being hurt, and in the
Speaker 3: interviews she has talked about being hurt, and the interviews
Speaker 3: and from all accounts that I've seen, the book doesn't
Speaker 3: really focus on right now, like they're like the modern
Speaker 3: love interview that I have listened to, she says, I
Speaker 3: married a harm I wanted a traditional marriage. I thought
Speaker 3: that we'd have a baby and buy a house. And
Speaker 3: when she's asked at the very end, okay, so you
Speaker 3: thought that, how do you feel now, She's sort of like, oh,
Speaker 3: well it changed.
Speaker 1: Yeah people change, though, you know what I mean? Yeah,
Speaker 1: people do change. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I find myself a bit defensive of her because I
Speaker 2: personally I like seeing lots of different examples of how
Speaker 2: women can live their lives, lots of different kinds of relationships,
Speaker 2: lots of different dynamics rather than there was one and
Speaker 2: it's a white picket fence and a wedding isn't ending.
Speaker 2: You know, that's the narrative we like to tell, fairy
Speaker 2: tale narrative.
Speaker 4: That she told herself and Shell yeah.
Speaker 1: To a point.
Speaker 2: But then that's a point in her life where you
Speaker 2: press pause because you've you know, that's where you're at
Speaker 2: and you're writing that story.
Speaker 1: But then you.
Speaker 2: Press play again right after you walk down the aisle,
Speaker 2: and a whole lot of different things happen. And I
Speaker 2: think that we love so the obsession we have, say
Speaker 2: with the Lily Allen album, and I share this obsession
Speaker 2: West End Girl is because it confirms all the biases
Speaker 2: we actually have about polyamory, which are generally women never
Speaker 2: want it. These are the things that we generally decide
Speaker 2: women never want it. It's generally an excuse for men
Speaker 2: to cheat, and it will end in tears. Now, all
Speaker 2: those things might be true, it might well end in tears,
Speaker 2: but lots of relationships in tears, lots of traditional marriages,
Speaker 2: and in tears, lots of people get betrayed by people
Speaker 2: betraying them, cheating on them when they said they wouldn't,
Speaker 2: not when they said they would. So I find it
Speaker 2: interesting that, like whether or not Lindy West's marriage or
Speaker 2: anyone's marriage is healthy not healthy, whether she should have
Speaker 2: forgiven him, whether she shouldn't, whatever, it's just like, why
Speaker 2: we're all so upset about it, Why the Internet's so
Speaker 2: upset about it. There are lots of memoirs out there
Speaker 2: about bad relationships, cheating, forgiving, cheating, not forgiving, cheating, coming
Speaker 2: to terms, deciding to leave.
Speaker 3: Like, one thing I've seen that I thought was quite
Speaker 3: clever was that perhaps we are looking at instead of
Speaker 3: Lindy West, the person with a whole lot of nuances,
Speaker 3: because you're exactly right, like you press pause on a memoir,
Speaker 3: you're married. But I mean, that's what's always so fascinating
Speaker 3: about any fairy tale narrative, is it's like and that
Speaker 3: after that, and then what happens is it's always messy.
Speaker 3: That's what life is. But I think people are looking
Speaker 3: at Lindy West, this symbol, and they're looking at this
Speaker 3: person who in the twenty tens taught them to love
Speaker 3: themselves and accept themselves and very much taught them. For example,
Speaker 3: she was always really great with that troll conversation that
Speaker 3: she's known for. She was really great at kind of
Speaker 3: how to respond to people being.
Speaker 1: Dicks and how and how to deal with dickey men.
Speaker 3: Yes, and a little bit of a twist this is
Speaker 3: this is a bit gos fever. You know, the outlouders
Speaker 3: love a little bit of gossip. A journalist from Slate
Speaker 3: went to Lindy West's cabin.
Speaker 1: She has led a few journalists into the cabin.
Speaker 2: I would be I would not, I'd be like canceling
Speaker 2: the ferry service to my island at this point.
Speaker 3: Yes, well, so, I think people are also a little
Speaker 3: bit annoyed in that they've held Lindy West up as
Speaker 3: a symbol and they feel like there's a bit of
Speaker 3: contradiction going on. So long story short. Slate the publication
Speaker 3: profiled Lindy West and interviewed both Royer and Aham. And
Speaker 3: when the profile came out, which was incredibly balanced and
Speaker 3: I didn't see anything snarky in it at all. It
Speaker 3: was very pro Lindy. The journalist had a line where
Speaker 3: she just said a harm and Royer weren't at the
Speaker 3: house when I interviewed Lindy. They were working on a
Speaker 3: shared project elsewhere, and Aham sent a very aggressive, borderline
Speaker 3: abusive email to this journalist. And the email to this
Speaker 3: journalist said you are a shitty fucking person. You're a bitter, untalented,
Speaker 3: mean girl, and you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself
Speaker 3: such and it was objectively an awful, awful email. And
Speaker 3: the journalist has shared that and basically said, there's one
Speaker 3: person on the internet who taught me how to respond
Speaker 3: to things like that, and it was West and now
Speaker 3: it's her partner doing that.
Speaker 2: So it's like her standing as a kick ass feminist
Speaker 2: is may be being undermined by her private life exactly.
Speaker 2: Ah If you, like us, are a little bit obsessed
Speaker 2: with this story and polyamory and all of the intricate
Speaker 2: bits and bobs, We're going to do a subs episode
Speaker 2: about it with Mia, because believe me, that woman has
Speaker 2: thoughts too, So keep an ear out for that.
Speaker 4: This week, Chapel Rowan's in trouble again. Poor Chapel. Oh
Speaker 4: I love Chapel, but it may not be what it seems.
Speaker 4: Let me tell you the story. It all unfolded this
Speaker 4: weekend in South Paolo Brazil. Georgin Yao is a very
Speaker 4: famous soccer player. He was born in Brazil. He's played
Speaker 4: for Chelsea and Arsenal. Obviously I know everything about him.
Speaker 4: They didn't just look this.
Speaker 1: He would have been watching The Matilda's on Saturday night.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: He is world famous and hugely popular in the way
Speaker 4: that soccer stars are. He has four point nine million
Speaker 4: Instagram followers, and on Saturday he put them all on black.
Speaker 4: He shared about a very upsetting situation which happened to
Speaker 4: his new wife, Katherine Harding. She's an Irish singer and
Speaker 4: his stepdaughter, So brace yourself for this very upsetting situation.
Speaker 4: It seems that Catherine and eleven year old Ada were
Speaker 4: eating breakfast at a fancy restaurant in South Pallo and
Speaker 4: they spotted Chapel Roll across the room. She was in
Speaker 4: town for a concert. What happened next depends a bit
Speaker 4: on your point of view, because, according to georgin no
Speaker 4: how Ada and Catherine merely walked past Chapel's table merely
Speaker 4: to establish that it was, in fact the singer Chapel.
Speaker 1: That's that Chapel Row? Is it that Chapel Roll? Now,
Speaker 1: don't let's go have a look.
Speaker 4: On their way to getting one of those like little
Speaker 4: mini pastries that I love getting at hotel breakfasts. And
Speaker 4: then they went back to their table, and then Chapel
Speaker 4: security came over and threatened and harassed them. Now, Georgino
Speaker 4: wrote in all caps on Instagram to his millions of followers.
Speaker 4: Without your fans, you would be nothing and to the fans,
Speaker 4: she does not deserve your affection in all caps, my.
Speaker 2: Mate Chapel, and if anyone doesn't know, she is the
Speaker 2: amazing singer behind Pink Pony Club and Hot to Go
Speaker 2: and my favorite is seven Nomenon and good luck babe.
Speaker 2: She's amazing, but she has got a reputation for having
Speaker 2: very strong boundaries with paps and fans.
Speaker 4: So that I will be real with you, Holly. When
Speaker 4: I saw this story on Saturday, I thought to myself
Speaker 4: that Chapel is such a diva. She's at it again.
Speaker 4: Two weeks ago she was shouting at the perps when
Speaker 4: she was having dinner. Boy George got in on this,
Speaker 4: like after this happened, he said, she just needs to
Speaker 4: own her fame. And that's how everyone felt about it.
Speaker 4: They just thought she's being so annoying and demanding because
Speaker 4: she wants her privacy now she's eating breakfast and these
Speaker 4: people were just wanting to admire her. From afar, Well,
Speaker 4: it turns out that the story was a little bit
Speaker 4: more complicated. Chappell talked to Instagram herself yesterday. That's what
Speaker 4: you do, you take to Instagram. She filmed herself in bed.
Speaker 4: I just I do question why everything now has to
Speaker 4: be filmed while people are lying supine, And she said
Speaker 4: that a the security guard was not her personal security guard,
Speaker 4: and that B she had never even seen the mother
Speaker 4: and daughter. Let's take a lesson.
Speaker 5: I'm just gonna tell my haf of the story of
Speaker 5: what happened today with a mother and child who were
Speaker 5: involved with a security guard who is my personal security.
Speaker 4: I didn't even see.
Speaker 5: I didn't even see a woman and a child like
Speaker 5: I did not know. One came up to me, no
Speaker 5: one bothered me.
Speaker 4: So obviously we'll never know the truth of what happened,
Speaker 4: but I think it does speak to where we're at
Speaker 4: that it's so easy and seductive for us to immediately
Speaker 4: assume the worst of the woman in any given situation.
Speaker 1: She had to say in that video, I do not
Speaker 1: hate children.
Speaker 4: How to hate children exactly.
Speaker 11: And you're like, wow, and is it that outlandish that
Speaker 11: a security guard might just go up to somebody and
Speaker 11: have a go at them, because sometimes security guards do
Speaker 11: that without for.
Speaker 4: The record, breakfast. I'm not good at breakfast. If fans
Speaker 4: approached me at breakfast, I tend to get my security
Speaker 4: guard to move them on. So, look, this reminded me
Speaker 4: of another woman who got shamed in the public eye,
Speaker 4: which was Kristin Cabot. Now that name will sound familiar
Speaker 4: to you because she was in the Coldplay kiss Cam
Speaker 4: and that got three hundred billion How is that now?
Speaker 2: There are only eight billion people in the world. I
Speaker 2: think we watched that video multiple three hundred billion views.
Speaker 4: You watched the Oprah special.
Speaker 1: I did so.
Speaker 2: I At first, when I saw that Oprah was interviewing
Speaker 2: Christian Cabot, I was like, surely I've heard all of
Speaker 2: this because she she did a New York Times piece.
Speaker 2: It was the first time she spoke after the event,
Speaker 2: and I was like, why are you talking? But then
Speaker 2: when I listened, it was really interesting things I didn't know,
Speaker 2: include her ex husband was also at the show at
Speaker 2: the same time. They were definitely separated. She had started
Speaker 2: flirting with the boss. The guys they knew it was
Speaker 2: wrong and they were about to go to the board
Speaker 2: about it, but they hadn't done anything yet. But she
Speaker 2: was definitely separated, and he knew that she was definitely separated,
Speaker 2: and he said that he was separated too, So that
Speaker 2: was part of it, right, And then you.
Speaker 4: Told me an absolutely fascinating thing that she says in it.
Speaker 4: Let's have a listen.
Speaker 7: New York Times wrote that she's been called the quote.
Speaker 7: She's been called a slut, a homewrecker, a gold digger,
Speaker 7: a side piece. The usual tags for shaming women, is
Speaker 7: what Lisa Miller wrote. And you told me that you
Speaker 7: believe that women are apt to quote each other alive,
Speaker 7: and that most of your criticism has actually come from
Speaker 7: other women, that other women are the only one who
Speaker 7: dare to come up to your face and say horrible things.
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, that was to me the most upsetting piece
Speaker 6: of all of this was I had no idea how
Speaker 6: unwell we as a gender still.
Speaker 4: Claire, you wrote a whole book about internet pylons and
Speaker 4: cancel culture. Did you were you surprised by that revelation
Speaker 4: that most of the online hate came from women's.
Speaker 3: No Ah, not at all, because I think that in
Speaker 3: some ways we're still prosecuting a lot of I mean,
Speaker 3: as you can say from this show, we're still prosecuting
Speaker 3: a lot of questions about feminism in real time.
Speaker 1: What was this got to do with feminism?
Speaker 3: And because I think that we are women are looking
Speaker 3: at each other thinking, are.
Speaker 4: You my enemy? You are my enemy?
Speaker 3: You are you are the reason that my husband left me, Like,
Speaker 3: women are doing that to each other, and it's internalized
Speaker 3: misogyny one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: So and they don't want to hear that actually that
Speaker 2: isn't what she was doing.
Speaker 3: On Yeah, yeah, because that nuance is quite boring and
Speaker 3: also doesn't fit with the fact that on the Internet,
Speaker 3: somebody like Kristin Cabot is a two dimensional figure who
Speaker 3: represents the homewrecker.
Speaker 1: That's it.
Speaker 4: There's nothing more complian, not to drawge too long a
Speaker 4: bowl on it. But I think that's also why we
Speaker 4: collectively would prefer to believe that Royer stole a harm
Speaker 4: from Lindy rather than perhaps a more complicated, nuanced idea.
Speaker 1: And my chapel rone is awful.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not saying she is well when people
Speaker 2: are believing that she is, maybe this is very depressing information.
Speaker 2: I want to leave you with a little bit of
Speaker 2: gossip that I did get from that interview, though, just
Speaker 2: so that we can throw it back on the guy, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: but not that that's healthy, but I'm just here to
Speaker 2: do it, just to even it out.
Speaker 1: They don't speak.
Speaker 2: They haven't spoken since last fall, Kristin and Andy because
Speaker 2: she says, and I love the way Americans talk, he
Speaker 2: did not meet my standards of honesty and transparency Americans do.
Speaker 2: And then Oprah says, are you telling me that he
Speaker 2: hadn't really separated from his wife? And she sort of says, well,
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that because it's not my story to tell.
Speaker 1: But that's totally what she's saying.
Speaker 4: It's story.
Speaker 2: He was a dirty, rotten cheetah. And he also didn't
Speaker 2: come out and defend her, which her ex husband did
Speaker 2: when he came out and said we were separated. It's
Speaker 2: cool Andy didn't say that, and so she is that
Speaker 2: he is the villain.
Speaker 4: There's an even better tibit in my view, which is
Speaker 4: that you remember that Gwyneth Paltrow did the ad for
Speaker 4: the company after this all came out. That was very
Speaker 4: wink wink, nudge nudge, basically trying to explain to everyone
Speaker 4: what this company did that they both worked at. Apparently,
Speaker 4: Gwyneth reached out to Kristin, which I think is kind
Speaker 4: of nice, because Kristin expressed some real disappointment that she
Speaker 4: was another woman who's founded this company based on women's empowerment.
Speaker 4: It's kind of tearing her down and making fun of
Speaker 4: her at her lowest moment. So I'm going to reach
Speaker 4: out to her, and Kristin left her unred. Oh my god, Holly,
Speaker 4: I know you would never do that, but I absolutely
Speaker 4: love that.
Speaker 2: The very last thing that's very sad about this is
Speaker 2: that Christen says she can no longer listen to Coldplay,
Speaker 2: and they were her favorite band and Yellow was her
Speaker 2: favorite song, but because that was playing when this all happened,
Speaker 2: she can no longer listen.
Speaker 4: It was Yellow that was playing. Sad, that's not a
Speaker 4: snogging song.
Speaker 1: That is all we have time for.
Speaker 2: Oh I need to I need to mention one of you.
Speaker 2: I need to mention one of you, Sarah. I'm sure
Speaker 2: we've only got one Sarah who listens to about loud
Speaker 2: all out louders. I'm sure there's only one who. On
Speaker 2: Friday I did ask. I said, hey, out louders, if
Speaker 2: you love us, wherever you're listening to this, why don't
Speaker 2: you jump on and give us a rating?
Speaker 1: And as far as I know, only said that's not true.
Speaker 1: I'm sure many people did.
Speaker 2: Sarah posted about it and she said, I did what
Speaker 2: Holly asked me to do. So be like Sarah, out louder,
Speaker 2: be Sarah, be a Sarah, and jump on wherever you're
Speaker 2: listening to this if you love the show and give
Speaker 2: us a railing.
Speaker 7: Week was a.
Speaker 2: Gold staro oh yeah, and then we can all have
Speaker 2: a little nap, yeah, and a little treat. Thank you
Speaker 2: to our amazing team for putting this Monday show together.
Speaker 2: Thank you to my wonderful co hosts, and we will
Speaker 2: see you tomorrow.
Speaker 3: Momenta acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which
Speaker 3: we have recorded this podcast.