WEBVTT - Polyamory, Cheating & The Marriage No One Wants To Believe 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:02.360 Hello, and welcome to Mama Mia. 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:04.600 Out loud, it is what women are actually talking about 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:06.720 on Monday, the twenty third of March. 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:07.800 I'm Holly Wayne. 0:00:07.600 --> 0:00:10.520 Wright, I'm Claire Stevens, and I'm Amelia Lester. 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:13.880 Do you like our new look ladies? I hate that 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:16.760 I just said ladies. Let me just take that back, 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:19.599 because I actually hate it when people say ladies to 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:20.520 me and then I find myself. 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:22.200 You know, guys. 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:26.080 I know, So do you like our new look friends? 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.040 I see I find ladies ironic. I use it ironically, 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:29.800 So come on. 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:30.960 Ladies, light ladies. 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:36.000 Yeah, but absolutely love it. I love that I'm on it. 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:40.760 Feel very included. There's been a lot of Chattney out 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:44.479 louders group about like the positioning, like, yeah, trend all 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:45.040 of them. 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:45.280 On the end. 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:51.960 Yeah, noticed that his very front and center. 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:54.040 Yeah, she's got a main character and. 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:55.200 She does her main character energy. 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:59.840 Mia elboweda waite towards the front tim the main character ategy, 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:03.440 which is earned quite roundly. And but if you don't 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:05.240 know what we're talking about, out louders, look at your phone, 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:07.720 look at where you're listening to this. We've changed our artwork, 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:09.440 We've changed our colors. I'm a big fan of the 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:13.280 blue for obvious reasons. You know, I'm a blue person. Anyway, 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:15.280 This is unimportant and nothing to do with what we're 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:17.440 talking about today, but I just thought i'd mention it 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:20.040 because we all do look very glorious in it. 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:22.360 I thought Mia was on the end too. 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:26.199 I thought she's sort of second from last. Anyway, I can't, 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:27.320 I can't conjure it. 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:29.080 No, neither look at it. 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:31.480 Because I reassure myself. I was like, if Mia is 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:33.800 on the end, then me being on the end is okay. 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:36.680 If you two are on the end, Yes, we've bookended 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:39.440 very well. I would suggest just all the rabble in 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:43.880 the middle anyway, on our agenda for today. And we 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:47.319 know that everywhere you look right now, everything's a bit panicky. 0:01:47.480 --> 0:01:50.040 We know there's a lot going on. We know we're 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.480 all worried about our bottom lines. But today we're going 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:54.240 to give you other things to think about and chew on, 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:58.560 because there's enough of that out there already. Like there's 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.800 a famous feminist who sharing all the details of her 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.880 polyamorous marriage, but nobody wants to believe her. 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:07.960 Plus why the late season of the Bachelorette in the 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:12.040 US was pulled just days before the premiere. 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:13.720 And I go deep on fuel prices. 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:18.480 No, we don't know, we need to fill out her 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:19.400 and close. 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:20.160 We don't. 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:22.600 Look, I'm sure there are some out louders out there 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:24.760 who are like, we would like Amelia to give us 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:25.240 a load out. 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:28.400 We're like, no, no, no, We're not doing that today. 0:02:28.840 --> 0:02:33.320 I instead have a really shocking, actually new detail about 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:37.760 the Coldplay kiss cam story that emerged via an OPRAH interview. 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:40.520 First of all, though, in case you missed it, and 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:43.720 I'm sure you didn't, my Saturday night, I'm sure was 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:45.959 reflected around the country by many other people. 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:47.079 Saturday night, I was on. 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.800 The edge of my couch, like the absolute edge, balancing 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:52.760 on my butt on the edge of the couch because 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:57.320 the Matildas played Japan in the Asian Cup final and 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.520 they lost, right, so they lost one nil. 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:04.040 And the thing about this that it was such an 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:05.160 exciting game. Did you watch. 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.360 Sorry, I'm a terrible person. 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:08.840 No you're not. 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:10.880 You've been poorly and you've got a small child. 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:15.160 Don't worry about it. Anyway, it was a very exciting game. 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:18.800 Japan scored in the first half, really amazing goal, and 0:03:18.840 --> 0:03:20.880 then in the second half, it was just full on 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:23.440 Matilda's attacking and they did everything right. 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:24.720 They were playing so. 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.560 Hard and everybody was amazing, but they just couldn't get 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:30.440 it in the net, which is the way. 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:32.320 That football goes sometimes. 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.840 But I really wanted to shout out the amazing Matilda's 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:39.720 because the pressure on those women to carry not only 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:43.080 like you know, obviously they're professional sports people and they 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:46.520 want to win, but with females sports people in those 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:48.480 roles have all this added pressure. 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:52.080 You're the inspiration for a nation, You're the inspiration for 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:54.920 the next generation. All the school girls of the world 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:56.040 look up to you and stuff. 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:59.320 And watching them all react in the next twenty four 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:03.200 hours to the fact that they tried their absolute hardest 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:07.400 but didn't make it was actually really inspiring. It was 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:10.240 they all took it very hard, and they all sort 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:12.480 of said, you know, we gave it everything, all those things, 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:16.200 but you know, if you've got to be a role model, 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:18.520 and we do put a lot of pressure on female 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:22.680 sports people to be role models. Role modeling trying really 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:25.200 really hard and being really really good at what you 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:28.080 do but still not always getting what you want. It's 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:30.599 actually really brilliant and important. 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:31.560 Yeah, that's amazing. 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.000 Thank you Matilda's for being credible. I know they're all 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:37.680 on their planes home to go back and play in 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:39.800 England and Europe and all over the place, and I 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:41.599 hope they're listening to out Loud on their way back 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:44.920 and you can hear us just sending loads of love. 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:45.680 You're amazing. 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:48.880 You may have seen a story all over your news 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:51.800 feeds over the weekend about how the latest season of 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.839 The Bachelorette in the US has been pulled. Now, when 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:57.480 I saw this, I didn't realize that it was actually 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:00.680 meant to premiere on Sunday Night. 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:03.400 Has gone to air, No, none. 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:05.120 Of it's going to air, But I didn't realize it 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:07.359 was being pulled that last minute. 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:09.400 How much would that be costing the network? 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:11.880 Between forty and fifty million dollars? 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:12.320 Wow? 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:15.320 And is so Obviously in Australia we've kind of kai 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.440 bosted The Bachelor and the Bachelorette now, but in America 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:19.280 is still a big deal. 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:23.800 Yes, And what they did was they clearly went a 0:05:23.800 --> 0:05:26.880 bit different and they wanted to have an anti hero 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:30.320 Bachelorette kind of remember when we had Sophie Monk that 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:33.080 was such a success, Like, we love having a bit 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:36.919 of a kind of square peg roundhole bachelorette that everyone's 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:37.320 gonna wank. 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:39.760 And also it's clever to have somebody who's already got 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:42.240 a profile exact And is that what they did with this? 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:43.279 Isn't she an influencer? 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:43.719 Yes? 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:46.240 So the woman who was meant to helm this new 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:51.119 season is Taylor Frankie Paul. She was originally known as 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:55.200 a Mum influencer, then for her role on Secret Lives 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:58.560 of Mormon Wives, which is a reality show that follows 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:02.040 a group of Mormon women whose lives often clash with 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:02.880 Mormon values. 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:04.000 That's what I know. 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:06.279 We don't want a sidebar on this, but I started 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.760 watching that show once because I was like, oh, I 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.640 want to know what this I've seen? What was that 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:14.200 show I used to watch about Sister Wives That was amazing, 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:17.720 big love, Oh my god love, and it was all 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:20.479 about like secret garments and all this, like golf. And 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.160 then I watched that one and those women they didn't 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:24.640 seem to be holding anything back. 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:25.960 Yeah, it's pretty out there. 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:32.359 It's very Mormon, but not Mormon controversy. Yes. So Taylor 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:37.200 in particular was involved in the soft swinging scandal that 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.279 was a big thing in twenty twenty two, which again 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:44.200 not very Mormon. That's not in the scriptures. So she's 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:45.480 cast on the Bachelorette. 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.360 That's not scriptures, it's not I'm so glad to hear. 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.040 I don't know what's in them, but I don't think 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:55.120 swinging and Mormon. 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:59.040 And it wasn't in there from memory. So she's cast 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:04.240 on the Bachelorette. And she again, she's a Utah Mum 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:09.200 influencer who is known for having a very turbulent relationship 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.800 with her ex partner, which had been reality TV fought up. 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:15.360 So they're broken up, that they have two kids to do. 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:19.040 And were they broken up in secret lives of Mormon wives. 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:21.960 So their tumultuous relationship was very much a PLoP P 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:22.440 got it? 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:24.960 Yes, And I know I might be pushing your knowledge 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:26.120 of the scripture. 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:29.000 Here, class. Clearly Mormons are allowed to get divorced. 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:31.560 Clearly they are right, well I thought they were, but 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.520 clearly if she's on the Bachelorette. 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.160 I'm sure they are. But they were never married. Oh, 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:41.680 they were together, had two kids, split up. So ABC 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:45.480 in the US has given her this fairy tale edit. 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:48.280 She was literally on the Oscars Red Carpet last week. 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:52.080 Oh yeah yeah, so they're like, you know, everyone deserves 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:56.920 a happy ending, but her seasons due to air. And 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:01.560 at the end of last week, TMZ a video it's 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:05.080 shot on a smartphone of Frankie Paul fighting with her 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.640 ex Dakota Mortensen in their home with their five year 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:12.760 old daughter present. It was recorded in twenty twenty three, 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:15.680 and I don't actually advise that anyone watch it. I 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:16.400 wish I hadn't. 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:18.320 That's it quite. It's confronting you. 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:22.240 Yes, it's it's very blurry, but it's more the sounds 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:25.000 that you don't want to hear, because it shows Frankie 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:29.880 Paul launching herself at her partner at the time, pulling 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:34.360 his hair, and she's throwing chairs at him, and then 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:37.560 it looks like at one point one of the chairs 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:41.560 hits the five year old and she shots, and that 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:44.840 sound of the sound of a child crying is just 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:46.680 so viscerally disturbing. 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:48.440 Did this video come from nowhere? 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:54.640 Well, they think once she gave a statement, it's clear 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:57.280 she believes it came from him, that it was leaked 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:01.079 from him. So ABC announced that take Frankie Paul's season 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:05.280 of The Bachelorette would not be airing, and as we've said, 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:06.600 that cancelation. 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.800 Is costing them a statish a huge deal. 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:12.960 Shouldn't they have done their due diligence before this, Like 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:16.160 did they know before the video gets leaked that she 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:19.319 had this? I'm going to use the word problematic, even 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:21.600 though it sounds much more serious than that about this 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:24.280 problematic incident in her past. 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:29.040 This is what is the elephant in the room. Is 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:33.400 that what this video shows, which is violence, isn't actually 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.160 news to anyone. Shouldn't be news to anyone, shouldn't be 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:39.200 news to ABC, shouldn't be news to anyone who's watched 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:44.160 Secret Lives of Mormon wives. Because Mortensen filed domestic violence 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:48.480 charges against Frankie Paul in February twenty twenty three, two 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:50.880 years ago, Frankie Paul struck a deal in which she 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:54.240 pleaded guilty to one count of aggravated assault, a third 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:58.040 degree felony, and had the other charges dismissed, including the 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:02.920 domestic violence charges. But that fight and its aftermath were 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:06.200 a plot point in season one of Secret Lives of 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:07.040 Mormon Why. 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:09.200 So it was more than an open secret? 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:12.760 YEP YEP, so it showed her interactions with local police 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:17.480 that that was all filmed. So it seems like it 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:21.600 was fine when it was for reality TV, and then 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:25.280 when we actually see the reality of it, it's suddenly 0:10:25.440 --> 0:10:30.600 absolutely not fine. Holly, do you think we've sanitized violence 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:34.280 so much that it's not until we actually see footage 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:36.400 that we realize how abhorrent it is. 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:40.280 Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I think that. I mean, 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:44.960 obviously I shouldn't say it goes without saying, but obviously 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:49.800 any kind of violence is abhorrent. Domestic violence statistics are 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:52.840 overwhelmingly that usually the perpetrator is a man, but obviously 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:56.600 in this instance that isn't the case. It's amazing that 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.320 it was excused or most trivialized and seen a bit 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.120 of a fun scandal until you see it. 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:04.440 And that's the thing. 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:07.720 And this is what I always say to my son about, 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:10.480 you know, or about violent video games and things, is like, 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.480 when you've got that removed distance between you and an 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.439 act of violence, it's easy to not have empathy. 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:19.959 It's easy to. 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:22.640 See it as some kind of sport, almost, But anyone 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:27.480 who sees violence up close in real life, you suddenly 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:31.000 see this very different human impact, and so it seems 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.960 to me incredibly cynical. I mean, I don't know all 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:35.520 the ins and outs, but on the face of it, 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:37.680 it seems incredibly cynical that they were like, she'll be 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:41.439 a great bachelorette because I don't know, maybe she's feisty, 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:45.120 she's got a big following, she's really attractive. We know 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:47.960 she's probably going to cause some drama. And then you're 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:51.600 confronted with no, this is why she has this reputation, 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.000 and you're like, oh, we didn't know it was that bad. 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:56.040 It's like, well, what did you think. 0:11:56.520 --> 0:12:01.440 She literally pled guilty to aggravated assault. She I believe that, 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:03.600 as you mentioned, the domestic lines charges would dropped, but 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:05.560 it's just a shame to me that this was actually 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:10.600 adjudicated legally and she was found liable, and yet the 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:13.280 TV network, as you say, just thought that was a fun, 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:14.800 racy plot point. 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:18.520 And it makes me think about all the times there 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:22.440 are men on our screens right now who have been 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:26.960 found guilty of all kinds of crimes, and we do 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:31.520 kind of think, like I honestly think that those terms 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:38.560 have become so widely used and so familiar that you 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:42.960 genuinely don't picture what it actually looks like. And I 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.880 think if any of us saw footage of what a 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:49.520 lot of high profile people are accused of, we just 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:50.920 could not endorse them. 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:52.320 So what are the things going to happen? 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:52.640 Right? 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:56.920 I mean, because they've obviously spent a fortune making this show, 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:01.120 elevating this woman to a certain position, and now they're 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.960 just they have to can it? Are they talking about 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:06.800 there being any repercussions? Like what might happen next? 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.079 I don't know, it's very much because I. 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:11.520 Think I saw some shots of her wearing some T 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:14.320 shirt that was a bit provocative and like almost as 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:16.959 if she's just playing it along with it. 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:21.000 Well, her statement was interesting in the wake of it. 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:24.839 So she responded to the video's release through a representative 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:29.760 to people, and the response said, releasing an old video, 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:34.400 which conveniently omits context is a reprehensible attempt to distract 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.839 from his own behavior. Right, So about her. 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:39.240 Ex So she might be insinuating that there was violence 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:41.559 on his part, Yes, not that we you know, Yes. 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:46.720 But it's a fascinating statement because you just think there's 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:51.360 absolutely no excuse. There's no there is no excuse for 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:53.840 the violence that you that you saw in that video 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:59.880 and it was not the response that the public needed. 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:02.920 My question is, did you watch the show Secret Lives 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:07.080 of Moms. I wonder if part of it was that 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:10.440 that also kind of sanitized it and just dismissed it, 0:14:10.520 --> 0:14:12.440 and so they thought they could get away with this. 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:20.120 Yes. Yes, And interestingly, both the production company that created 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:23.640 Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and production company that are 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.640 doing the Bachroolette the Bachelorette are both owned by Disney, 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:30.119 and so it is very interesting one that it's Disney 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.680 and that it's kind of this fairy tale idea, but 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:37.560 also that it's the same you know, it's the same 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:41.200 powers that be that clearly thought, Okay, this is the 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:44.360 kind of scandal that gets us ratings, and this is 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:46.320 the kind of person who gets us ratings. And now 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:48.360 have turned around and said, oh, not like. 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:49.560 That, not like that. 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:54.480 After the break, the things that we did at primary 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:56.760 school that we should also do at work. 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.600 Have you ever been at work and thought, why did 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.680 I fight nap time so hard in pre school? That's 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.640 me every day around midday? What I would do for 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:09.320 a little cot and some quiet time, maybe a lovely 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:13.240 person stroking my back telling me to relax. How did 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:15.960 I take it? So? For granted that my mum packed 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.520 my lunch, but then also sometimes forgot, so sometimes she 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:22.000 did a lunch shorder and it smelt so good and 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.200 the oil kind of went through the paper and you're 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:29.440 like meat pie. Well, last week, our brilliant ep Ruth 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.840 shared a video to all of us with absolutely no context. 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:36.320 It was an Instagram reel of a British man sharing 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.880 the things that he did at primary school that he 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:42.680 thought we should also do it work, And holy wow, 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.840 I knew Ruth was a genius, but my goodness, here's 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:49.440 a few suggestions that digital content creator Freddie Allison had 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:49.760 for us. 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:52.280 All I think we should mention that he was talking 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:55.560 into a microphone fashion from a toilet rush. 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:59.960 Fact no nice an expert, yes, absolutely taking himself very serious. 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:01.840 Here are some things we did at primary score that 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.320 we should also do at work. Leave at quarter past three, 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:07.160 occasionally watch Shrek to on a Friday afternoon, play with 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:11.000 this thing, mark each other's work. I'm looking at you, Linda, 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.040 cry because you want to go home? Played up duck 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:15.560 Goose in the conference room. Yearly trip to the zoo, 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:18.920 dress up because it's World Book Day. Have thirteen weeks 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.320 off every year, get chosen by your boss to take 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:23.240 a note to the office down the hallway, go on 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:25.720 the apparatus, get picked up by your mum because your 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:29.040 stomach hurts, and run around screaming because there's a dog outside. 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:32.560 Oh so good, ever good. 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.280 It is simply all I've thought about. One of the 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.680 comments was play heads down thumbs up because there's only 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:41.400 a few minutes left of the day and it's not 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:46.280 enough time to start anything. I'm like, yea more of that, Amelia, 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:47.040 What would you like. 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:50.280 To unlocked a core memory for a week? Because it's 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:54.080 raining in Sydney today? And it just reminded me that 0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:57.680 whenever it range, teachers would bang on at EHS or 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:00.880 something or other and I love that. 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:02.080 Why should I. 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.040 Be working when I should be watching a weird nineteen 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:09.159 eighties BBC series about children who are also coal miners. 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:12.679 I feel like that was always what I. 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:12.080 Have to know. 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.560 This will you will wheel the TV? 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:21.960 You see the TV be wielded and you're like, yeah, 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:22.920 it was so good. 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.240 Sick bay. We need a sick bay, not because you're 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.080 actually sick, but because you just need a place to 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:32.960 be just with a little plastic curtain that you can 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:36.520 pull across, just a little bit of silence, and a 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:40.920 kindly school nurse just coming by saying are you doing okay? Last, 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:42.600 that's what I need. 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.600 You need in between space between being a work being 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:45.920 at home. 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:51.439 Yes, healthy Harald visits, except this time the giraffe that 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:53.399 comes to the school in the van is telling us 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:55.320 all about how to be healthy as an adult, which, 0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:58.480 as we all know, is repeat after me, protein flossying, 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:03.560 resistance training, this is, and then finally, I just want 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:05.760 to say, pencil cases. I know it's not a thing 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.879 to do, but nothing gives me more joy than a 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:09.879 pencil case. 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:13.280 I need colors. Why don't I have colors? I don't true? 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:15.760 Why don't I need to bring all my coloring pens in? 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:19.480 I would like gold stars for good work and participation 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:20.920 medals when I don't quite reach. 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:23.120 But I don't quite reach the mark. 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:27.159 Today, Holly, after out loud, you get a participation medal 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:28.480 good trying. 0:18:28.960 --> 0:18:30.280 I tried really hard. 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:33.840 Yeah, if it's not rewarded enough in adult. 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.320 No, it's really not. I'd like quiet time and a 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:38.560 little lunch. In fact, I often have a little lunch 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:40.680 I was thinking about that often before this record. 0:18:41.240 --> 0:18:43.000 I'll have a little lunch with a little. 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:44.760 Bit of a Brooklyn Beckham hot sauce. 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:46.320 Yes, crunch and sip. 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:50.240 Absolutely, I would like to be able to point at 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:55.200 one of my coworkers and just says it was when 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.560 something goes wrong, and for that to be accepted. Have 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:02.320 you finished the record yet, I'm not frowned upon. It 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:03.680 would be like accountability. 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:04.960 I'm like, no, it was her. 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:10.080 I used to wear because it was a long time 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:11.639 ago and it was in England, it was cold. I 0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:16.200 used to wear a matching woolen polar neck and wooly 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:18.760 tights with a cordroy. 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:21.400 Sorry that sounds like CBK level side. 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:25.359 And I used to wear that to my primary school. 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:28.879 And when I think about that outfit now, I'm like, yeah, 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:30.040 it was rocking. 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:31.040 Was it itchy? 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:32.639 Though? We'd all go like this. 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:34.479 I was always going like this, so like pulling up 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:37.120 our collars, pulling it out and trying to like because 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:38.640 it was really itchy, but it was cool. 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:39.840 It was some cloth kits. 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:42.960 Actually, considering my gross children, I would also like a 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:44.639 return of the knit nurse. We used to have a 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:47.800 woman who'd come in and go through your hair, and 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:48.919 it was so embarrassing. 0:19:48.960 --> 0:19:50.639 And she'd get you all in the hall and go 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:52.000 through your hair and then be like. 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.600 You home, you home, you nurse, and you'd be like, 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:58.760 oh no, the knit nurse came and I'd like a 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:01.240 little sewing session like the first when you're having a 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.840 bit of downtime. We used to make like caterpillar pencil cases. 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.159 We could make pencil case crafts. 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:10.120 Crafts, yes, more craft carpentry. 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:14.399 Yes. Remember Actually when we first moved into this office 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:17.520 at Mama Mia, we were all encouraged to craft our 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:18.280 water bottles. 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:20.280 Yes, yeah, I think I've got mine. 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:20.719 There we go. 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:22.479 Mine's got a little b on it. 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:24.760 And that was the most fun I've had it work 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:27.080 in a really long time. And I was not very 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:29.800 creative at all. If you're watching this on video on Apple, 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:30.320 you can. 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:30.880 See my beat. 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:34.240 But more crafting please, crafting corner. 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:39.399 That's very primary school coded mineor genuinely, why don't we 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.480 do news, slash show and tell anymore. 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:44.800 On Monday mornings. 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:47.560 You're on a podcast, I know, but it's. 0:20:47.480 --> 0:20:50.040 Not like I don't have a big enough physical audience. 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:52.719 I want to share in front of and tell them. 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:54.399 One story from my weekend, and. 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:57.440 I want people to be h tell into your drive. 0:20:57.680 --> 0:20:59.399 I know that's actually very true. 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:01.199 That is what people are doing in the kitchen on 0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:04.119 Monday mornings right there are people say how is your weekend? 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:06.320 And depending on your energy levels, you're either like it 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:08.720 was amazing, this happened, and this happened, just like fine. 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:13.000 But if you had to bring something tore your weekend, 0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:15.240 and in this office full of young people, sometimes it 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:16.639 might be an empty bottle of. 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:22.240 Rows, the story that goes along job of the movie ticket. 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:26.480 I also would like to bring back swimming and athletics carnival. 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:28.880 I wouldn't Did you actually enjoy these? 0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:34.840 I enjoyed participating. It's more that I'm curious about other people. 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:37.959 I want to swim. 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:43.240 Running in her corduroy skirt. I don't want to see 0:21:43.240 --> 0:21:44.040 anyone in this swimmer. 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:46.879 If we had a running race, would win? 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:47.800 Would? 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:48.199 I think? 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:54.080 Would us wildly flattered right now? But I definitely a 0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:56.520 lot of cannibals. I generally said that I have my 0:21:56.600 --> 0:22:00.159 period regardless of see that's another thing I use to 0:22:00.160 --> 0:22:01.960 do in high school. It's probably a bit of a delinquent, 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:04.359 but I never wanted to do pe. I always have 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:06.879 my period. I've tried saying on this podcast, like I 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:09.640 can't do it because I have my period, and producer 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:13.679 Ruth is unimpressed. Everyone like there are free tampons in 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:14.919 the bathroom. 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:17.359 By high school and the matildas would not approve of this. 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:19.640 I would always try and be picked last for all 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:22.600 the sports because so I just keep going at the back, 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:24.679 and as the numbers dwindled, I've got start at the 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:26.440 back again. So we could just do that with the 0:22:26.480 --> 0:22:28.600 Podco's on the pod today and I just got hide 0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:29.080 behind him. 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:33.360 What about me? Actually that's a. 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:34.879 Representation on our new logo. 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:39.200 We're all trying to stand behind each other. I would 0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:43.520 also like I always liked assembly at school because I 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:45.600 like watching people sing and dance. You know, when people 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:50.160 did a performance that was lovely. I liked when Mum 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:52.720 picked me up for an orthodontist appointment and we'd get 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:55.040 a donut and or a chocolate milkshake on the way. 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:56.200 It was really special. 0:22:56.760 --> 0:22:59.119 I just thought about the singing and dancing is you 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:00.600 know when there's a big album them out that the 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:03.240 new Taylor Swift album comes out, Oh Harry Styles last week, 0:23:03.880 --> 0:23:06.480 myself and Tessa, who works on this show, we could, 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:08.960 if you like, stand up and give you a full 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:12.080 rendition all the time occasionally. 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:12.679 Would you like that? 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:13.120 Yes? 0:23:13.240 --> 0:23:15.879 And I'm sure someone in this office can sing, and 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:19.800 I would just like this song because my answering. I 0:23:19.880 --> 0:23:20.719 just want to watch. 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:25.840 After the break, one of the most iconic millennial feminists 0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:30.119 has opened up about the true state of a polyamorous marriage, 0:23:30.160 --> 0:23:32.080 and nobody can get enough. 0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:35.680 My only currency in life was like, does a harm 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:37.919 like me? How does a harm feel? What's a harmdoing? 0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:40.280 And if I didn't have that, I was like nothing. 0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:46.919 Polyamory is like the perfect antidote to codependency. 0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:50.280 Some of the stereotypes it is that how could there 0:23:50.440 --> 0:23:54.880 be enough to go around? Enough time, enough attention, enough love. 0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:58.480 I have the greatest love in my life right now 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:01.800 than I've ever had before, and it has never felt 0:24:01.800 --> 0:24:04.120 this good. You know, we're told this is too good 0:24:04.119 --> 0:24:04.640 to be trial. 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:08.119 Okay, So I know that we've all been following the 0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:11.119 discourse that's been happening online over the past week about 0:24:11.160 --> 0:24:14.000 Lindy West, But I'm sure that lots of people listening 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:15.520 to this don't know who Lindy West is. 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:18.040 So a Meily. How would you characterize her? 0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:22.240 She's obviously she's a writer, a prominent feminist screenwriter, article writer. 0:24:22.760 --> 0:24:24.600 Where would you sort of put her in the culture. 0:24:24.880 --> 0:24:29.280 She kind of was the feminist writer in for millennials. 0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:31.960 She peeked in that sort of the early twenty tens. 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:34.800 She wrote for a website called Jezebel that was very 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:38.960 famous for its feminist hop takes. She was very active 0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:42.760 on Twitter. She had this movement called hashtag shot your Abortion, 0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:44.679 because it was back when we thought that if you 0:24:44.720 --> 0:24:47.520 put a hashtag in front of a phrase, it makes 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:52.639 it cooler. And then she wrote like really kind of edgy, 0:24:53.840 --> 0:24:57.280 very controversial at the time, takes that kind of pushed 0:24:57.320 --> 0:24:59.760 feminism forward. So she used to have a column called 0:24:59.760 --> 0:25:03.040 hell Oh I Am Fat because she was known for 0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:06.280 her body positivity. She wrote this essay called how to 0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:08.840 Make a Rape Joke where she basically called out the 0:25:08.920 --> 0:25:11.479 misogyny that was so rampant in stand up comedy that 0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:14.639 no one kind of realized until the twenty tens. And 0:25:14.680 --> 0:25:17.399 she she was very much peak millennial feminism. 0:25:17.680 --> 0:25:20.480 Yeah, and I remember there was this iconic episode of 0:25:20.480 --> 0:25:23.320 This American Life which very much puts all this in context. 0:25:23.320 --> 0:25:26.720 This was in the twenty thirteens where she tracked down 0:25:26.720 --> 0:25:27.800 an internet troll of hers. 0:25:27.840 --> 0:25:29.760 It's actually an amazing. 0:25:29.280 --> 0:25:31.920 It's one of the best I would say audio experience 0:25:32.080 --> 0:25:32.920 one hundred and seven. 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:34.480 So big, big deal. 0:25:34.560 --> 0:25:36.879 So that's sir Lindy west Is. You might have You 0:25:36.960 --> 0:25:39.440 might also be familiar with her work. She wrote a 0:25:39.480 --> 0:25:42.399 memoir called Shrill, which was a big success in New 0:25:42.480 --> 0:25:44.240 York Times Bestseller and then it got picked up and 0:25:44.280 --> 0:25:46.920 turned into a really well received TV show. You might 0:25:46.960 --> 0:25:48.600 have heard her when she was at the peak of 0:25:48.640 --> 0:25:52.160 all of that kind of internet culture writing. She came 0:25:52.200 --> 0:25:54.240 on No Filter and spoke to me about Shrill. I 0:25:54.280 --> 0:25:58.040 think back in twenty seventeen. So she's a big deal. 0:25:58.520 --> 0:26:00.760 The reason we're talking about her She's got a new 0:26:00.760 --> 0:26:03.280 memoir at we talked about memoirs on Friday and about 0:26:03.320 --> 0:26:05.960 the importance of truth or or not when it comes 0:26:06.000 --> 0:26:10.080 to memoir. Lindy's new memoir is called Adult Braces, and 0:26:10.119 --> 0:26:12.960 it kind of picks up a bit where Shrill left off, 0:26:13.000 --> 0:26:16.600 which is at the end of Shrill. So Lindy, obviously, 0:26:17.600 --> 0:26:20.600 as Amelia said, was written about all these important feminist issues. 0:26:20.680 --> 0:26:23.359 In twenty fifteen, Lindy got married. 0:26:23.520 --> 0:26:28.280 She married her partner, musician and writer ahamafule Oluo, who 0:26:28.359 --> 0:26:32.000 she always refers to as Aham. Right, So she and 0:26:32.040 --> 0:26:33.040 Araham married. 0:26:33.119 --> 0:26:33.720 I remember the. 0:26:33.680 --> 0:26:37.720 Pictures so clearly, this beautiful, very like hipster wedding. 0:26:37.600 --> 0:26:40.560 And shrill very much kind of ended with the happy 0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:43.320 ending of them together and married. 0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:46.640 Yeah, and then in twenty twenty two, so seven years 0:26:46.640 --> 0:26:51.040 after their marriage, Lindy and Aham and another woman called 0:26:51.200 --> 0:26:54.640 Roya came out as it were, as a thropple, so 0:26:54.680 --> 0:26:56.679 that there are three of them in their relationship, and 0:26:56.720 --> 0:27:00.360 they talked about their polyamory. So it's not new that 0:27:00.359 --> 0:27:03.600 that's her domestic arrangement she lives. And this is why, 0:27:03.680 --> 0:27:07.320 in lots of ways, Lindy West has become in this 0:27:07.480 --> 0:27:10.919 moment get to twenty twenty six, a kind of almost 0:27:10.960 --> 0:27:14.920 like a conservative commentators fantasy. 0:27:14.560 --> 0:27:17.600 Of what a really woke lefty is. 0:27:17.840 --> 0:27:19.560 Like, you know, she lives in a cabin in the 0:27:19.600 --> 0:27:21.880 woods in the Pacific Northwest, and she's got a nose 0:27:21.960 --> 0:27:25.760 ring and she's living with her you know, two in 0:27:25.800 --> 0:27:28.640 her thropple, which I think they call a closed triad, 0:27:28.720 --> 0:27:30.960 Like it's it kind of ticks a lot of boxes 0:27:31.040 --> 0:27:34.760 of stereotypical lefty jokes for those people well. 0:27:34.800 --> 0:27:37.040 And also we should mention that that twenty twenty two 0:27:37.160 --> 0:27:40.040 video that is online where they come out as a thruple, 0:27:40.600 --> 0:27:42.360 I think it's safe to say it made a lot 0:27:42.359 --> 0:27:45.600 of people uncomfortable, not just conservatives. I think a lot 0:27:45.640 --> 0:27:48.119 of people saw. What they thought they saw in that 0:27:48.240 --> 0:27:52.240 video was that Lindy West had kind of settled for 0:27:52.320 --> 0:27:55.639 a relationship where she would always be second best to Roya. 0:27:55.840 --> 0:27:58.360 This was how it was received online and part of. 0:27:58.280 --> 0:28:00.920 That, Let's be really honest, and Lindy talked about this herself, 0:28:00.960 --> 0:28:03.040 and she thinks this is one of the reasons why 0:28:03.040 --> 0:28:05.399 people struggle with a lot is Roya is kind of 0:28:05.520 --> 0:28:10.440 conventionally sort of tiny and attractive in a way that 0:28:11.080 --> 0:28:14.040 Lindy has often written about not feeling so people reading 0:28:14.080 --> 0:28:17.200 a lot into that relationship, even though Lindy West herself 0:28:17.200 --> 0:28:19.680 has always been very open about it. Anyway, fast forward 0:28:19.720 --> 0:28:21.880 to now and why we're talking about it today. There 0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:24.679 is a new memoir that Linda's written called Adult Braces. 0:28:24.920 --> 0:28:29.240 The memoir follows Lindy driving across the US after finding 0:28:29.240 --> 0:28:33.240 out that Aham, who identifies as non binary but also 0:28:33.800 --> 0:28:37.359 uses the pronouns hear him says he wants to open 0:28:37.440 --> 0:28:39.680 up the marriage and how basically it's the story of 0:28:39.720 --> 0:28:43.120 how they got from that wedding day to being in 0:28:43.160 --> 0:28:45.920 this closed triad in the woods, and the internet has 0:28:45.960 --> 0:28:48.080 lost its mind. Claire Stevens, what are the kind of 0:28:48.120 --> 0:28:48.800 things they're saying. 0:28:49.360 --> 0:28:54.000 So the kind of discourse, as Amelia said, it's sort 0:28:54.000 --> 0:28:57.840 of started with that video where the three of them 0:28:58.560 --> 0:29:01.719 came out with this is what our relationship structure looks like. 0:29:01.760 --> 0:29:05.960 And there was a lot of backlash about an analysis 0:29:05.960 --> 0:29:08.520 of body language and whether this was what Linda really wanted, 0:29:08.560 --> 0:29:12.160 which was a bit like kind of condescending, and so 0:29:12.280 --> 0:29:14.560 that was kind of the discourse. Then she's written this 0:29:14.680 --> 0:29:21.360 memoir and it's that intensified times a million. 0:29:21.480 --> 0:29:24.120 So there are a million headlines on substack, for example, 0:29:24.160 --> 0:29:27.240 that are all about how she looks like she's in 0:29:28.360 --> 0:29:29.960 polyamory under juress. 0:29:30.560 --> 0:29:33.120 Not just on substack. There's an article in the Atlantic 0:29:33.160 --> 0:29:36.000 which simply says, I don't believe her when she says 0:29:36.040 --> 0:29:37.440 she's happy in this relationship. 0:29:38.120 --> 0:29:42.280 And there's another substack that calls it train wreck feminism 0:29:42.320 --> 0:29:48.160 and talks about women who convince themselves that they're happy 0:29:48.240 --> 0:29:50.920 in a particular arrangement and that they chose it when 0:29:51.120 --> 0:29:55.240 it's almost like watching someone self harm. So there's basically 0:29:55.320 --> 0:29:59.920 a lot of concern and whether you'd call that faux 0:30:00.120 --> 0:30:02.760 concern performative concern for Lindy West. 0:30:02.840 --> 0:30:05.840 So she's addressed a bit of this in an Instagram 0:30:05.960 --> 0:30:08.160 live that she posted the other day. She said, just 0:30:08.200 --> 0:30:10.480 to frame this before you hear it. So she's driving 0:30:10.480 --> 0:30:13.080 in a car when she's talking, so that explains. 0:30:12.720 --> 0:30:13.320 The audio a bit. 0:30:13.640 --> 0:30:16.080 But she says, I know I shouldn't respond, She said, 0:30:16.120 --> 0:30:18.800 I know I shouldn't bite it back, but some of 0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:23.400 this is wild. She sort of explains that Ahammad said 0:30:24.080 --> 0:30:26.200 from the beginning that he wasn't going to be monogamous, 0:30:26.200 --> 0:30:28.760 so she sort of frames it as she was making 0:30:28.840 --> 0:30:33.520 him perform monogamy under duress. And she says the argument 0:30:33.600 --> 0:30:36.160 that the book is a sort of manual on polyamory 0:30:36.280 --> 0:30:37.880 is wrong. This is what she says in a part 0:30:37.880 --> 0:30:38.240 of that. 0:30:38.440 --> 0:30:43.280 Her book is not a polyamory game. First of all, 0:30:43.280 --> 0:30:45.360 the book, most of the book is not even about polyamory. 0:30:45.920 --> 0:30:48.640 So and either way, all the stuff in the book 0:30:48.840 --> 0:30:51.960 that's not about polyamory, where I am going through these 0:30:52.040 --> 0:30:59.920 like hard fought mental health battles. Alhama's instrumental in supporting, 0:31:00.080 --> 0:31:02.320 in helping me through all of those. I don't know 0:31:02.360 --> 0:31:07.880 how to even quantify the ways that a harm held 0:31:07.960 --> 0:31:13.040 me up for those years. It's all for fifteen years now, 0:31:13.120 --> 0:31:18.080 you know, And like, show me any couple that doesn't 0:31:18.080 --> 0:31:22.000 have some problems. I don't. It's like and I just 0:31:22.120 --> 0:31:26.000 tried to write an honest book and it just so happens. 0:31:26.120 --> 0:31:30.960 And I say this a little bit, that my experience 0:31:31.680 --> 0:31:36.520 is easier for the mainstream narrative to empathize with than 0:31:36.560 --> 0:31:37.240 a harm. 0:31:37.320 --> 0:31:39.240 Yes, I want to be a pain supponent. I have 0:31:39.320 --> 0:31:41.320 not read this book, and I bet that most of. 0:31:41.280 --> 0:31:43.760 The people who are critiquing it online have also not 0:31:43.840 --> 0:31:44.760 read this book. 0:31:44.960 --> 0:31:46.720 But why do you think people are so upset? 0:31:47.280 --> 0:31:50.240 One thing I find fascinating and that there has then 0:31:50.320 --> 0:31:52.960 been discourse about the discourse and all of that because 0:31:54.800 --> 0:31:57.920 Lindy has commented, So she's done that video, she's done 0:31:57.920 --> 0:32:03.040 a substack post kind of engage with the criticism, and 0:32:03.080 --> 0:32:08.440 it's not the criticism isn't criticism of her. It is 0:32:08.520 --> 0:32:14.160 actually more criticism of a harm. And basically a lot 0:32:14.200 --> 0:32:16.640 of people are saying there's a difference between a transparent, 0:32:16.840 --> 0:32:21.920 mutually agreed upon polyamorous relationship and one where there's cheating involved. 0:32:22.480 --> 0:32:27.360 And by Lindy's account in her book and in the interviews, 0:32:27.840 --> 0:32:31.520 and that's the other thing I agree. People haven't read 0:32:31.560 --> 0:32:34.719 the book, but there is a modern love, very detailed 0:32:34.760 --> 0:32:35.240 modern love. 0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:37.200 There's a lot of source material out there. 0:32:37.240 --> 0:32:39.200 There's a slave profile. There actually is a lot that 0:32:39.240 --> 0:32:43.160 has come directly from her. By Lindy West's own account, 0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:46.760 she was not comfortable with being in a non monogamous 0:32:46.840 --> 0:32:50.360 relationship and it was presented to her by a harm 0:32:50.720 --> 0:32:53.160 as an ultimatum to her at a time where she 0:32:53.240 --> 0:32:56.400 was grieving her father and she didn't want a harm 0:32:56.440 --> 0:32:59.280 to leave her, so she tacitly agreed in the sense 0:32:59.320 --> 0:33:01.920 that she was. She says she was kicking it down 0:33:01.960 --> 0:33:05.040 the line, hoping that it would never actually come to fruition. 0:33:05.680 --> 0:33:07.920 It's kind of what you want, but whatever exactly. 0:33:08.160 --> 0:33:12.560 Then she hears through a fan of hers that Aham 0:33:12.680 --> 0:33:15.239 was hooking up with another woman in a bar in 0:33:15.280 --> 0:33:19.120 the neighborhood. So, Holly, imagine how you would feel if 0:33:19.120 --> 0:33:22.120 somebody if if an out louder said, hey, just saw 0:33:22.160 --> 0:33:26.400 Brent hooking up with somebody and the humiliation because obviously 0:33:26.480 --> 0:33:30.760 other people don't don't know and as far as she knows, 0:33:30.920 --> 0:33:32.400 that's not happen. 0:33:32.560 --> 0:33:35.160 Yeah, but she the way that this story unfolds, the 0:33:35.240 --> 0:33:37.560 understand it issue, that's all in the past, right, So 0:33:37.680 --> 0:33:39.840 this all happened. He cheated on her, That's how they 0:33:39.920 --> 0:33:41.720 kind of worked out. Like she was like, oh, he 0:33:41.880 --> 0:33:44.000 meant it about that, which is why she was saying 0:33:44.000 --> 0:33:46.720 in that thing there was monogamy under duress and then 0:33:46.760 --> 0:33:49.680 that led them through the But why does nobody want 0:33:49.720 --> 0:33:51.720 to believe her about where they're at now? 0:33:53.000 --> 0:33:57.240 I don't even know if it's well. I think one 0:33:57.280 --> 0:34:00.240 aspect of it that I find really interesting is that 0:34:00.920 --> 0:34:05.959 part of millennial Internet writing was vulnerability and was showing 0:34:06.000 --> 0:34:09.560 your skuf personal essay, yes, and was very much and 0:34:09.640 --> 0:34:12.399 Lindy West has written she wrote about in Shrill, and 0:34:12.719 --> 0:34:15.160 she has talked about it in these interviews where she 0:34:15.320 --> 0:34:22.239 has said, I have never had a functional relationship where 0:34:22.280 --> 0:34:25.040 somebody just puts me on a pedestal and loves me 0:34:25.320 --> 0:34:29.239 like that is not what was ever presented to me 0:34:29.360 --> 0:34:32.520 as an option. And so people are sort of reading 0:34:32.560 --> 0:34:35.200 into this and thinking well, if that was never presented 0:34:35.200 --> 0:34:36.840 to you as an option, then maybe you think this 0:34:36.960 --> 0:34:39.080 is the only option and they're analyzing it to death. 0:34:39.200 --> 0:34:41.720 But what about her point that, like, they've been together 0:34:41.760 --> 0:34:44.960 for nearly two decades and he's her number one supporter 0:34:45.000 --> 0:34:47.759 and they're madly in love. Why do you think do 0:34:47.840 --> 0:34:50.239 you think we're just we are like we don't want 0:34:50.239 --> 0:34:52.360 to And I'm not suggesting that here on this podcast 0:34:52.360 --> 0:34:54.759 we're going to prosecute whether or not that's true. I 0:34:54.840 --> 0:34:58.160 want to I'm prosecuting like that conversation that we will 0:34:58.239 --> 0:35:01.200 not believe it. It's almost like there is not a 0:35:01.239 --> 0:35:04.319 world in which we like hearing that there could be 0:35:04.360 --> 0:35:07.960 another version of marriage other than the traditional one we like. 0:35:08.560 --> 0:35:11.560 Yes, I think Lindy would have answers to that. I 0:35:11.600 --> 0:35:16.280 think she would point to sizism because, as mentioned, Roya 0:35:16.680 --> 0:35:22.040 is a small woman and Lindy describes herself as fat. 0:35:22.760 --> 0:35:26.120 And I think Lindy would also point to racism because 0:35:26.160 --> 0:35:30.720 Aham is a person of color and she has spoken 0:35:30.840 --> 0:35:34.000 about how she feels that a lot of the discussion 0:35:34.120 --> 0:35:39.759 around monogamy is inherently white centric. That's what Lindy would 0:35:39.800 --> 0:35:42.440 say in answer to the question of why are people 0:35:42.760 --> 0:35:44.480 so unable to believe her? 0:35:44.719 --> 0:35:47.520 When you write a memoir and when you then go 0:35:47.560 --> 0:35:49.879 and promote that memoir and you're interviewed and you share 0:35:50.000 --> 0:35:56.360 your story, people automatically the point of empathy is Lindy right. 0:35:56.280 --> 0:35:59.640 People like when you hear we we know her right? 0:35:59.680 --> 0:36:02.080 Yes? And you know her and so when she tells 0:36:02.120 --> 0:36:07.319 you something, you you I mean, contrary to a lot 0:36:07.360 --> 0:36:10.479 of this commentary, you do trust her as a voice, 0:36:10.520 --> 0:36:13.759 and you do empathize with her. The really tricky thing 0:36:14.239 --> 0:36:16.920 is that in this book and in those interviews, she 0:36:17.400 --> 0:36:23.279 is telling us that a Harm did horrible things. There 0:36:23.320 --> 0:36:26.040 is a part in the book where she writes, when 0:36:26.080 --> 0:36:28.719 Ahm was hooking up with the woman in their neighborhood, 0:36:28.719 --> 0:36:33.959 that Harm did things that were really bad that she's 0:36:34.000 --> 0:36:35.959 not going to put in the book, and that would 0:36:35.960 --> 0:36:40.719 have made her entirely justified in leaving their marriage. And 0:36:40.719 --> 0:36:42.040 that's what she doesn't include. 0:36:42.120 --> 0:36:45.000 Yeah. She also says, though, that they both did a 0:36:45.000 --> 0:36:47.120 lot of shitty things. She said, we're in that video 0:36:47.239 --> 0:36:48.560 that I was just playing a bit obvious. She says, 0:36:48.680 --> 0:36:52.480 this is a story about emotionally immature people hurting each other. 0:36:53.080 --> 0:36:56.680 Yes, so I guess what I'm asking is like, that's 0:36:57.040 --> 0:36:58.160 her story. 0:36:58.480 --> 0:37:01.120 Yes, And I feel like if someone's going to tell 0:37:01.160 --> 0:37:03.560 you their memoir and they're going to say, you know, 0:37:03.600 --> 0:37:06.040 all these complicated things happen in my relationship, but at 0:37:06.040 --> 0:37:08.240 the moment, this is where my relationships at and I'm. 0:37:08.120 --> 0:37:08.880 Quite happy in it. 0:37:09.360 --> 0:37:12.640 I find it really interesting that most of the pushback 0:37:12.760 --> 0:37:14.160 is just like, we don't believe. 0:37:14.800 --> 0:37:19.960 I think there's also she so she's told this story, 0:37:20.280 --> 0:37:25.120 and she has shown herself being hurt, and in the 0:37:25.200 --> 0:37:29.960 interviews she has talked about being hurt, and the interviews 0:37:30.560 --> 0:37:34.800 and from all accounts that I've seen, the book doesn't 0:37:34.840 --> 0:37:38.840 really focus on right now, like they're like the modern 0:37:38.880 --> 0:37:43.040 love interview that I have listened to, she says, I 0:37:43.160 --> 0:37:46.120 married a harm I wanted a traditional marriage. I thought 0:37:46.120 --> 0:37:50.120 that we'd have a baby and buy a house. And 0:37:50.239 --> 0:37:52.600 when she's asked at the very end, okay, so you 0:37:52.680 --> 0:37:55.399 thought that, how do you feel now, She's sort of like, oh, 0:37:55.400 --> 0:37:56.200 well it changed. 0:37:56.520 --> 0:37:59.600 Yeah people change, though, you know what I mean? Yeah, 0:37:59.680 --> 0:38:01.200 people do change. I don't know. 0:38:01.280 --> 0:38:04.440 I find myself a bit defensive of her because I 0:38:05.760 --> 0:38:09.120 personally I like seeing lots of different examples of how 0:38:09.200 --> 0:38:12.160 women can live their lives, lots of different kinds of relationships, 0:38:12.160 --> 0:38:15.400 lots of different dynamics rather than there was one and 0:38:15.440 --> 0:38:17.960 it's a white picket fence and a wedding isn't ending. 0:38:18.080 --> 0:38:20.800 You know, that's the narrative we like to tell, fairy 0:38:20.800 --> 0:38:21.919 tale narrative. 0:38:21.640 --> 0:38:23.560 That she told herself and Shell yeah. 0:38:23.440 --> 0:38:23.919 To a point. 0:38:23.960 --> 0:38:25.480 But then that's a point in her life where you 0:38:25.520 --> 0:38:28.439 press pause because you've you know, that's where you're at 0:38:28.480 --> 0:38:29.720 and you're writing that story. 0:38:30.040 --> 0:38:30.560 But then you. 0:38:30.520 --> 0:38:33.240 Press play again right after you walk down the aisle, 0:38:33.280 --> 0:38:35.680 and a whole lot of different things happen. And I 0:38:35.719 --> 0:38:38.120 think that we love so the obsession we have, say 0:38:38.120 --> 0:38:40.320 with the Lily Allen album, and I share this obsession 0:38:40.400 --> 0:38:43.800 West End Girl is because it confirms all the biases 0:38:43.800 --> 0:38:46.960 we actually have about polyamory, which are generally women never 0:38:47.000 --> 0:38:49.280 want it. These are the things that we generally decide 0:38:49.560 --> 0:38:52.960 women never want it. It's generally an excuse for men 0:38:53.000 --> 0:38:56.120 to cheat, and it will end in tears. Now, all 0:38:56.160 --> 0:38:58.440 those things might be true, it might well end in tears, 0:38:58.480 --> 0:39:01.960 but lots of relationships in tears, lots of traditional marriages, 0:39:02.000 --> 0:39:05.200 and in tears, lots of people get betrayed by people 0:39:05.640 --> 0:39:08.040 betraying them, cheating on them when they said they wouldn't, 0:39:08.080 --> 0:39:10.680 not when they said they would. So I find it 0:39:10.760 --> 0:39:13.920 interesting that, like whether or not Lindy West's marriage or 0:39:13.960 --> 0:39:17.360 anyone's marriage is healthy not healthy, whether she should have 0:39:17.360 --> 0:39:20.479 forgiven him, whether she shouldn't, whatever, it's just like, why 0:39:20.560 --> 0:39:23.000 we're all so upset about it, Why the Internet's so 0:39:23.120 --> 0:39:25.640 upset about it. There are lots of memoirs out there 0:39:25.680 --> 0:39:31.040 about bad relationships, cheating, forgiving, cheating, not forgiving, cheating, coming 0:39:31.040 --> 0:39:32.399 to terms, deciding to leave. 0:39:32.960 --> 0:39:39.240 Like, one thing I've seen that I thought was quite 0:39:39.280 --> 0:39:44.640 clever was that perhaps we are looking at instead of 0:39:44.719 --> 0:39:46.960 Lindy West, the person with a whole lot of nuances, 0:39:46.960 --> 0:39:50.120 because you're exactly right, like you press pause on a memoir, 0:39:50.200 --> 0:39:53.680 you're married. But I mean, that's what's always so fascinating 0:39:53.719 --> 0:39:56.440 about any fairy tale narrative, is it's like and that 0:39:56.680 --> 0:39:59.680 after that, and then what happens is it's always messy. 0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:03.439 That's what life is. But I think people are looking 0:40:03.480 --> 0:40:07.040 at Lindy West, this symbol, and they're looking at this 0:40:07.120 --> 0:40:13.000 person who in the twenty tens taught them to love 0:40:13.040 --> 0:40:18.880 themselves and accept themselves and very much taught them. For example, 0:40:19.080 --> 0:40:22.640 she was always really great with that troll conversation that 0:40:23.000 --> 0:40:25.960 she's known for. She was really great at kind of 0:40:26.680 --> 0:40:29.920 how to respond to people being. 0:40:29.760 --> 0:40:32.399 Dicks and how and how to deal with dickey men. 0:40:32.600 --> 0:40:35.279 Yes, and a little bit of a twist this is 0:40:35.400 --> 0:40:37.719 this is a bit gos fever. You know, the outlouders 0:40:37.760 --> 0:40:41.480 love a little bit of gossip. A journalist from Slate 0:40:41.880 --> 0:40:44.160 went to Lindy West's cabin. 0:40:44.880 --> 0:40:46.760 She has led a few journalists into the cabin. 0:40:47.040 --> 0:40:49.360 I would be I would not, I'd be like canceling 0:40:49.360 --> 0:40:51.600 the ferry service to my island at this point. 0:40:52.000 --> 0:40:56.200 Yes, well, so, I think people are also a little 0:40:56.200 --> 0:40:59.160 bit annoyed in that they've held Lindy West up as 0:40:59.160 --> 0:41:03.080 a symbol and they feel like there's a bit of 0:41:03.160 --> 0:41:07.799 contradiction going on. So long story short. Slate the publication 0:41:07.960 --> 0:41:13.120 profiled Lindy West and interviewed both Royer and Aham. And 0:41:13.440 --> 0:41:16.520 when the profile came out, which was incredibly balanced and 0:41:16.719 --> 0:41:19.120 I didn't see anything snarky in it at all. It 0:41:19.200 --> 0:41:23.800 was very pro Lindy. The journalist had a line where 0:41:24.239 --> 0:41:26.880 she just said a harm and Royer weren't at the 0:41:26.960 --> 0:41:29.120 house when I interviewed Lindy. They were working on a 0:41:29.160 --> 0:41:36.960 shared project elsewhere, and Aham sent a very aggressive, borderline 0:41:37.000 --> 0:41:40.480 abusive email to this journalist. And the email to this 0:41:40.560 --> 0:41:43.920 journalist said you are a shitty fucking person. You're a bitter, untalented, 0:41:43.960 --> 0:41:46.560 mean girl, and you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself 0:41:47.320 --> 0:41:50.719 such and it was objectively an awful, awful email. And 0:41:51.120 --> 0:41:55.399 the journalist has shared that and basically said, there's one 0:41:55.440 --> 0:41:58.680 person on the internet who taught me how to respond 0:41:58.760 --> 0:42:01.040 to things like that, and it was West and now 0:42:01.040 --> 0:42:02.680 it's her partner doing that. 0:42:02.880 --> 0:42:06.160 So it's like her standing as a kick ass feminist 0:42:06.360 --> 0:42:11.440 is may be being undermined by her private life exactly. 0:42:11.440 --> 0:42:15.719 Ah If you, like us, are a little bit obsessed 0:42:15.800 --> 0:42:19.239 with this story and polyamory and all of the intricate 0:42:19.239 --> 0:42:21.600 bits and bobs, We're going to do a subs episode 0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:23.560 about it with Mia, because believe me, that woman has 0:42:23.600 --> 0:42:27.000 thoughts too, So keep an ear out for that. 0:42:27.200 --> 0:42:31.160 This week, Chapel Rowan's in trouble again. Poor Chapel. Oh 0:42:31.280 --> 0:42:34.120 I love Chapel, but it may not be what it seems. 0:42:34.200 --> 0:42:36.799 Let me tell you the story. It all unfolded this 0:42:36.880 --> 0:42:41.600 weekend in South Paolo Brazil. Georgin Yao is a very 0:42:41.600 --> 0:42:44.280 famous soccer player. He was born in Brazil. He's played 0:42:44.280 --> 0:42:46.960 for Chelsea and Arsenal. Obviously I know everything about him. 0:42:47.000 --> 0:42:47.759 They didn't just look this. 0:42:48.640 --> 0:42:50.600 He would have been watching The Matilda's on Saturday night. 0:42:50.880 --> 0:42:51.080 Yeah. 0:42:51.120 --> 0:42:54.439 He is world famous and hugely popular in the way 0:42:54.480 --> 0:42:56.800 that soccer stars are. He has four point nine million 0:42:56.800 --> 0:42:59.959 Instagram followers, and on Saturday he put them all on black. 0:43:00.280 --> 0:43:05.279 He shared about a very upsetting situation which happened to 0:43:05.400 --> 0:43:08.680 his new wife, Katherine Harding. She's an Irish singer and 0:43:08.719 --> 0:43:12.759 his stepdaughter, So brace yourself for this very upsetting situation. 0:43:13.560 --> 0:43:17.080 It seems that Catherine and eleven year old Ada were 0:43:17.120 --> 0:43:20.960 eating breakfast at a fancy restaurant in South Pallo and 0:43:21.600 --> 0:43:23.600 they spotted Chapel Roll across the room. She was in 0:43:23.640 --> 0:43:26.839 town for a concert. What happened next depends a bit 0:43:26.920 --> 0:43:29.120 on your point of view, because, according to georgin no 0:43:29.120 --> 0:43:34.080 how Ada and Catherine merely walked past Chapel's table merely 0:43:34.160 --> 0:43:36.880 to establish that it was, in fact the singer Chapel. 0:43:37.080 --> 0:43:39.640 That's that Chapel Row? Is it that Chapel Roll? Now, 0:43:39.719 --> 0:43:41.000 don't let's go have a look. 0:43:41.360 --> 0:43:43.000 On their way to getting one of those like little 0:43:43.040 --> 0:43:46.680 mini pastries that I love getting at hotel breakfasts. And 0:43:46.719 --> 0:43:49.880 then they went back to their table, and then Chapel 0:43:49.920 --> 0:43:54.360 security came over and threatened and harassed them. Now, Georgino 0:43:54.480 --> 0:43:58.719 wrote in all caps on Instagram to his millions of followers. 0:43:59.520 --> 0:44:03.560 Without your fans, you would be nothing and to the fans, 0:44:03.680 --> 0:44:07.120 she does not deserve your affection in all caps, my. 0:44:07.160 --> 0:44:10.160 Mate Chapel, and if anyone doesn't know, she is the 0:44:10.200 --> 0:44:15.839 amazing singer behind Pink Pony Club and Hot to Go 0:44:16.200 --> 0:44:19.520 and my favorite is seven Nomenon and good luck babe. 0:44:19.560 --> 0:44:22.800 She's amazing, but she has got a reputation for having 0:44:23.000 --> 0:44:26.800 very strong boundaries with paps and fans. 0:44:26.960 --> 0:44:29.879 So that I will be real with you, Holly. When 0:44:29.920 --> 0:44:32.960 I saw this story on Saturday, I thought to myself 0:44:33.040 --> 0:44:37.480 that Chapel is such a diva. She's at it again. 0:44:37.600 --> 0:44:39.839 Two weeks ago she was shouting at the perps when 0:44:39.880 --> 0:44:42.719 she was having dinner. Boy George got in on this, 0:44:42.880 --> 0:44:45.160 like after this happened, he said, she just needs to 0:44:45.200 --> 0:44:47.840 own her fame. And that's how everyone felt about it. 0:44:47.880 --> 0:44:50.919 They just thought she's being so annoying and demanding because 0:44:50.960 --> 0:44:54.279 she wants her privacy now she's eating breakfast and these 0:44:54.280 --> 0:44:57.719 people were just wanting to admire her. From afar, Well, 0:44:57.760 --> 0:44:59.799 it turns out that the story was a little bit 0:44:59.800 --> 0:45:03.719 more complicated. Chappell talked to Instagram herself yesterday. That's what 0:45:03.719 --> 0:45:06.799 you do, you take to Instagram. She filmed herself in bed. 0:45:06.880 --> 0:45:09.640 I just I do question why everything now has to 0:45:09.680 --> 0:45:12.919 be filmed while people are lying supine, And she said 0:45:12.920 --> 0:45:15.839 that a the security guard was not her personal security guard, 0:45:15.880 --> 0:45:18.439 and that B she had never even seen the mother 0:45:18.520 --> 0:45:20.040 and daughter. Let's take a lesson. 0:45:20.960 --> 0:45:24.480 I'm just gonna tell my haf of the story of 0:45:24.600 --> 0:45:31.120 what happened today with a mother and child who were 0:45:31.160 --> 0:45:35.280 involved with a security guard who is my personal security. 0:45:35.960 --> 0:45:37.640 I didn't even see. 0:45:37.920 --> 0:45:41.200 I didn't even see a woman and a child like 0:45:41.280 --> 0:45:43.560 I did not know. One came up to me, no 0:45:43.600 --> 0:45:44.440 one bothered me. 0:45:44.800 --> 0:45:47.040 So obviously we'll never know the truth of what happened, 0:45:47.080 --> 0:45:49.439 but I think it does speak to where we're at 0:45:49.560 --> 0:45:53.000 that it's so easy and seductive for us to immediately 0:45:53.000 --> 0:45:55.560 assume the worst of the woman in any given situation. 0:45:55.800 --> 0:45:57.600 She had to say in that video, I do not 0:45:57.920 --> 0:45:59.320 hate children. 0:45:58.960 --> 0:46:00.520 How to hate children exactly. 0:46:00.640 --> 0:46:04.600 And you're like, wow, and is it that outlandish that 0:46:05.280 --> 0:46:08.359 a security guard might just go up to somebody and 0:46:08.400 --> 0:46:11.000 have a go at them, because sometimes security guards do 0:46:11.040 --> 0:46:12.000 that without for. 0:46:12.040 --> 0:46:16.440 The record, breakfast. I'm not good at breakfast. If fans 0:46:16.440 --> 0:46:18.840 approached me at breakfast, I tend to get my security 0:46:18.840 --> 0:46:22.080 guard to move them on. So, look, this reminded me 0:46:22.160 --> 0:46:25.080 of another woman who got shamed in the public eye, 0:46:25.360 --> 0:46:28.000 which was Kristin Cabot. Now that name will sound familiar 0:46:28.000 --> 0:46:30.959 to you because she was in the Coldplay kiss Cam 0:46:31.400 --> 0:46:35.640 and that got three hundred billion How is that now? 0:46:35.800 --> 0:46:37.920 There are only eight billion people in the world. I 0:46:37.960 --> 0:46:44.440 think we watched that video multiple three hundred billion views. 0:46:45.440 --> 0:46:47.760 You watched the Oprah special. 0:46:47.600 --> 0:46:48.359 I did so. 0:46:48.600 --> 0:46:51.160 I At first, when I saw that Oprah was interviewing 0:46:51.239 --> 0:46:53.120 Christian Cabot, I was like, surely I've heard all of 0:46:53.160 --> 0:46:55.400 this because she she did a New York Times piece. 0:46:55.480 --> 0:46:57.320 It was the first time she spoke after the event, 0:46:58.520 --> 0:46:59.920 and I was like, why are you talking? But then 0:47:00.080 --> 0:47:03.880 when I listened, it was really interesting things I didn't know, 0:47:04.000 --> 0:47:06.600 include her ex husband was also at the show at 0:47:06.600 --> 0:47:10.280 the same time. They were definitely separated. She had started 0:47:10.400 --> 0:47:13.279 flirting with the boss. The guys they knew it was 0:47:13.320 --> 0:47:14.719 wrong and they were about to go to the board 0:47:14.719 --> 0:47:17.040 about it, but they hadn't done anything yet. But she 0:47:17.400 --> 0:47:20.600 was definitely separated, and he knew that she was definitely separated, 0:47:20.640 --> 0:47:24.839 and he said that he was separated too, So that 0:47:25.040 --> 0:47:27.040 was part of it, right, And then you. 0:47:27.080 --> 0:47:30.960 Told me an absolutely fascinating thing that she says in it. 0:47:31.080 --> 0:47:31.840 Let's have a listen. 0:47:32.200 --> 0:47:36.280 New York Times wrote that she's been called the quote. 0:47:36.440 --> 0:47:42.200 She's been called a slut, a homewrecker, a gold digger, 0:47:42.560 --> 0:47:46.319 a side piece. The usual tags for shaming women, is 0:47:46.320 --> 0:47:48.920 what Lisa Miller wrote. And you told me that you 0:47:49.120 --> 0:47:53.560 believe that women are apt to quote each other alive, 0:47:54.600 --> 0:47:57.279 and that most of your criticism has actually come from 0:47:57.360 --> 0:48:00.680 other women, that other women are the only one who 0:48:00.800 --> 0:48:03.480 dare to come up to your face and say horrible things. 0:48:03.520 --> 0:48:06.720 Right, Yeah, that was to me the most upsetting piece 0:48:06.719 --> 0:48:10.520 of all of this was I had no idea how 0:48:10.800 --> 0:48:14.200 unwell we as a gender still. 0:48:14.239 --> 0:48:17.520 Claire, you wrote a whole book about internet pylons and 0:48:17.560 --> 0:48:21.880 cancel culture. Did you were you surprised by that revelation 0:48:22.000 --> 0:48:24.080 that most of the online hate came from women's. 0:48:24.360 --> 0:48:29.000 No Ah, not at all, because I think that in 0:48:29.080 --> 0:48:32.879 some ways we're still prosecuting a lot of I mean, 0:48:33.360 --> 0:48:35.440 as you can say from this show, we're still prosecuting 0:48:35.480 --> 0:48:38.000 a lot of questions about feminism in real time. 0:48:38.080 --> 0:48:39.520 What was this got to do with feminism? 0:48:39.600 --> 0:48:43.399 And because I think that we are women are looking 0:48:43.400 --> 0:48:46.440 at each other thinking, are. 0:48:46.280 --> 0:48:48.360 You my enemy? You are my enemy? 0:48:48.480 --> 0:48:52.600 You are you are the reason that my husband left me, Like, 0:48:52.920 --> 0:48:55.680 women are doing that to each other, and it's internalized 0:48:55.680 --> 0:48:57.279 misogyny one hundred percent. 0:48:57.080 --> 0:48:59.080 So and they don't want to hear that actually that 0:48:59.120 --> 0:48:59.919 isn't what she was doing. 0:48:59.840 --> 0:49:05.640 On Yeah, yeah, because that nuance is quite boring and 0:49:05.880 --> 0:49:09.520 also doesn't fit with the fact that on the Internet, 0:49:09.800 --> 0:49:14.399 somebody like Kristin Cabot is a two dimensional figure who 0:49:14.480 --> 0:49:16.200 represents the homewrecker. 0:49:16.280 --> 0:49:16.560 That's it. 0:49:16.600 --> 0:49:18.640 There's nothing more complian, not to drawge too long a 0:49:18.680 --> 0:49:21.080 bowl on it. But I think that's also why we 0:49:22.080 --> 0:49:26.920 collectively would prefer to believe that Royer stole a harm 0:49:27.160 --> 0:49:31.560 from Lindy rather than perhaps a more complicated, nuanced idea. 0:49:31.680 --> 0:49:32.920 And my chapel rone is awful. 0:49:33.320 --> 0:49:35.440 I mean, I'm not saying she is well when people 0:49:35.440 --> 0:49:38.800 are believing that she is, maybe this is very depressing information. 0:49:38.880 --> 0:49:40.040 I want to leave you with a little bit of 0:49:40.120 --> 0:49:42.080 gossip that I did get from that interview, though, just 0:49:42.120 --> 0:49:44.399 so that we can throw it back on the guy, right, Yeah, 0:49:44.440 --> 0:49:46.480 but not that that's healthy, but I'm just here to 0:49:46.480 --> 0:49:47.680 do it, just to even it out. 0:49:47.920 --> 0:49:48.720 They don't speak. 0:49:48.800 --> 0:49:53.000 They haven't spoken since last fall, Kristin and Andy because 0:49:53.280 --> 0:49:56.520 she says, and I love the way Americans talk, he 0:49:56.640 --> 0:50:02.520 did not meet my standards of honesty and transparency Americans do. 0:50:03.120 --> 0:50:05.440 And then Oprah says, are you telling me that he 0:50:05.520 --> 0:50:09.520 hadn't really separated from his wife? And she sort of says, well, 0:50:09.520 --> 0:50:11.520 I'm not saying that because it's not my story to tell. 0:50:11.520 --> 0:50:12.719 But that's totally what she's saying. 0:50:12.800 --> 0:50:13.720 It's story. 0:50:13.920 --> 0:50:17.120 He was a dirty, rotten cheetah. And he also didn't 0:50:17.120 --> 0:50:19.960 come out and defend her, which her ex husband did 0:50:19.960 --> 0:50:21.839 when he came out and said we were separated. It's 0:50:21.880 --> 0:50:25.399 cool Andy didn't say that, and so she is that 0:50:25.440 --> 0:50:26.240 he is the villain. 0:50:26.440 --> 0:50:29.000 There's an even better tibit in my view, which is 0:50:29.040 --> 0:50:33.080 that you remember that Gwyneth Paltrow did the ad for 0:50:33.200 --> 0:50:36.160 the company after this all came out. That was very 0:50:36.280 --> 0:50:40.040 wink wink, nudge nudge, basically trying to explain to everyone 0:50:40.080 --> 0:50:43.480 what this company did that they both worked at. Apparently, 0:50:44.640 --> 0:50:49.439 Gwyneth reached out to Kristin, which I think is kind 0:50:49.440 --> 0:50:52.719 of nice, because Kristin expressed some real disappointment that she 0:50:52.840 --> 0:50:57.600 was another woman who's founded this company based on women's empowerment. 0:50:57.600 --> 0:50:59.360 It's kind of tearing her down and making fun of 0:50:59.360 --> 0:51:01.480 her at her lowest moment. So I'm going to reach 0:51:01.560 --> 0:51:06.040 out to her, and Kristin left her unred. Oh my god, Holly, 0:51:06.160 --> 0:51:08.480 I know you would never do that, but I absolutely 0:51:08.560 --> 0:51:08.960 love that. 0:51:09.800 --> 0:51:12.400 The very last thing that's very sad about this is 0:51:12.400 --> 0:51:14.759 that Christen says she can no longer listen to Coldplay, 0:51:15.000 --> 0:51:17.319 and they were her favorite band and Yellow was her 0:51:17.320 --> 0:51:20.800 favorite song, but because that was playing when this all happened, 0:51:21.000 --> 0:51:22.240 she can no longer listen. 0:51:22.440 --> 0:51:26.799 It was Yellow that was playing. Sad, that's not a 0:51:26.840 --> 0:51:27.720 snogging song. 0:51:28.920 --> 0:51:30.319 That is all we have time for. 0:51:30.480 --> 0:51:32.640 Oh I need to I need to mention one of you. 0:51:32.760 --> 0:51:34.600 I need to mention one of you, Sarah. I'm sure 0:51:34.600 --> 0:51:36.720 we've only got one Sarah who listens to about loud 0:51:37.120 --> 0:51:39.799 all out louders. I'm sure there's only one who. On 0:51:39.880 --> 0:51:42.799 Friday I did ask. I said, hey, out louders, if 0:51:42.800 --> 0:51:45.719 you love us, wherever you're listening to this, why don't 0:51:45.719 --> 0:51:47.120 you jump on and give us a rating? 0:51:47.360 --> 0:51:51.560 And as far as I know, only said that's not true. 0:51:51.640 --> 0:51:52.920 I'm sure many people did. 0:51:53.600 --> 0:51:55.960 Sarah posted about it and she said, I did what 0:51:56.040 --> 0:51:59.600 Holly asked me to do. So be like Sarah, out louder, 0:52:00.160 --> 0:52:03.680 be Sarah, be a Sarah, and jump on wherever you're 0:52:03.680 --> 0:52:06.040 listening to this if you love the show and give 0:52:06.120 --> 0:52:06.640 us a railing. 0:52:06.680 --> 0:52:07.239 Week was a. 0:52:07.239 --> 0:52:09.719 Gold staro oh yeah, and then we can all have 0:52:09.760 --> 0:52:13.160 a little nap, yeah, and a little treat. Thank you 0:52:13.200 --> 0:52:15.880 to our amazing team for putting this Monday show together. 0:52:16.080 --> 0:52:18.560 Thank you to my wonderful co hosts, and we will 0:52:18.560 --> 0:52:19.600 see you tomorrow. 0:52:21.480 --> 0:52:24.759 Momenta acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which 0:52:24.800 --> 0:52:26.239 we have recorded this podcast.