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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Mama Mia.

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Speaker 2: Out loud, it is what women are actually talking about

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Speaker 2: on Monday, the twenty third of March.

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Speaker 1: I'm Holly Wayne.

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Speaker 3: Wright, I'm Claire Stevens, and I'm Amelia Lester.

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Speaker 2: Do you like our new look ladies? I hate that

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Speaker 2: I just said ladies. Let me just take that back,

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Speaker 2: because I actually hate it when people say ladies to

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Speaker 2: me and then I find myself.

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Speaker 4: You know, guys.

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Speaker 1: I know, So do you like our new look friends?

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Speaker 3: I see I find ladies ironic. I use it ironically,

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Speaker 3: So come on.

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Speaker 1: Ladies, light ladies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but absolutely love it. I love that I'm on it.

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Speaker 3: Feel very included. There's been a lot of Chattney out

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Speaker 3: louders group about like the positioning, like, yeah, trend all

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Speaker 3: of them.

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Speaker 5: On the end.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, noticed that his very front and center.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's got a main character and.

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Speaker 3: She does her main character energy.

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Speaker 2: Mia elboweda waite towards the front tim the main character ategy,

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Speaker 2: which is earned quite roundly. And but if you don't

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Speaker 2: know what we're talking about, out louders, look at your phone,

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Speaker 2: look at where you're listening to this. We've changed our artwork,

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Speaker 2: We've changed our colors. I'm a big fan of the

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Speaker 2: blue for obvious reasons. You know, I'm a blue person. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: This is unimportant and nothing to do with what we're

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Speaker 2: talking about today, but I just thought i'd mention it

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Speaker 2: because we all do look very glorious in it.

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Speaker 4: I thought Mia was on the end too.

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Speaker 2: I thought she's sort of second from last. Anyway, I can't,

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Speaker 2: I can't conjure it.

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Speaker 3: No, neither look at it.

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Speaker 4: Because I reassure myself. I was like, if Mia is

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Speaker 4: on the end, then me being on the end is okay.

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Speaker 2: If you two are on the end, Yes, we've bookended

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Speaker 2: very well. I would suggest just all the rabble in

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Speaker 2: the middle anyway, on our agenda for today. And we

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Speaker 2: know that everywhere you look right now, everything's a bit panicky.

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Speaker 2: We know there's a lot going on. We know we're

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Speaker 2: all worried about our bottom lines. But today we're going

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Speaker 2: to give you other things to think about and chew on,

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Speaker 2: because there's enough of that out there already. Like there's

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Speaker 2: a famous feminist who sharing all the details of her

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Speaker 2: polyamorous marriage, but nobody wants to believe her.

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Speaker 3: Plus why the late season of the Bachelorette in the

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Speaker 3: US was pulled just days before the premiere.

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Speaker 4: And I go deep on fuel prices.

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Speaker 3: No, we don't know, we need to fill out her

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Speaker 3: and close.

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Speaker 6: We don't.

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Speaker 2: Look, I'm sure there are some out louders out there

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Speaker 2: who are like, we would like Amelia to give us

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Speaker 2: a load out.

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Speaker 1: We're like, no, no, no, We're not doing that today.

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Speaker 4: I instead have a really shocking, actually new detail about

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Speaker 4: the Coldplay kiss cam story that emerged via an OPRAH interview.

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Speaker 2: First of all, though, in case you missed it, and

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you didn't, my Saturday night, I'm sure was

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Speaker 2: reflected around the country by many other people.

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Speaker 1: Saturday night, I was on.

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Speaker 2: The edge of my couch, like the absolute edge, balancing

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Speaker 2: on my butt on the edge of the couch because

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Speaker 2: the Matildas played Japan in the Asian Cup final and

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Speaker 2: they lost, right, so they lost one nil.

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Speaker 1: And the thing about this that it was such an

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Speaker 1: exciting game. Did you watch.

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Speaker 4: Sorry, I'm a terrible person.

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Speaker 7: No you're not.

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Speaker 1: You've been poorly and you've got a small child.

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Speaker 2: Don't worry about it. Anyway, it was a very exciting game.

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Speaker 2: Japan scored in the first half, really amazing goal, and

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Speaker 2: then in the second half, it was just full on

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Speaker 2: Matilda's attacking and they did everything right.

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Speaker 1: They were playing so.

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Speaker 2: Hard and everybody was amazing, but they just couldn't get

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Speaker 2: it in the net, which is the way.

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Speaker 1: That football goes sometimes.

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Speaker 2: But I really wanted to shout out the amazing Matilda's

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Speaker 2: because the pressure on those women to carry not only

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Speaker 2: like you know, obviously they're professional sports people and they

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Speaker 2: want to win, but with females sports people in those

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Speaker 2: roles have all this added pressure.

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Speaker 1: You're the inspiration for a nation, You're the inspiration for

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Speaker 1: the next generation. All the school girls of the world

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Speaker 1: look up to you and stuff.

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Speaker 2: And watching them all react in the next twenty four

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Speaker 2: hours to the fact that they tried their absolute hardest

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Speaker 2: but didn't make it was actually really inspiring. It was

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Speaker 2: they all took it very hard, and they all sort

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Speaker 2: of said, you know, we gave it everything, all those things,

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Speaker 2: but you know, if you've got to be a role model,

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Speaker 2: and we do put a lot of pressure on female

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Speaker 2: sports people to be role models. Role modeling trying really

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Speaker 2: really hard and being really really good at what you

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Speaker 2: do but still not always getting what you want. It's

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Speaker 2: actually really brilliant and important.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's amazing.

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Speaker 2: Thank you Matilda's for being credible. I know they're all

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Speaker 2: on their planes home to go back and play in

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Speaker 2: England and Europe and all over the place, and I

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Speaker 2: hope they're listening to out Loud on their way back

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Speaker 2: and you can hear us just sending loads of love.

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Speaker 1: You're amazing.

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Speaker 3: You may have seen a story all over your news

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Speaker 3: feeds over the weekend about how the latest season of

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Speaker 3: The Bachelorette in the US has been pulled. Now, when

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Speaker 3: I saw this, I didn't realize that it was actually

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Speaker 3: meant to premiere on Sunday Night.

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Speaker 4: Has gone to air, No, none.

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Speaker 3: Of it's going to air, But I didn't realize it

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Speaker 3: was being pulled that last minute.

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Speaker 4: How much would that be costing the network?

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Speaker 3: Between forty and fifty million dollars?

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Speaker 1: Wow?

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Speaker 2: And is so Obviously in Australia we've kind of kai

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Speaker 2: bosted The Bachelor and the Bachelorette now, but in America

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Speaker 2: is still a big deal.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And what they did was they clearly went a

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Speaker 3: bit different and they wanted to have an anti hero

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Speaker 3: Bachelorette kind of remember when we had Sophie Monk that

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Speaker 3: was such a success, Like, we love having a bit

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Speaker 3: of a kind of square peg roundhole bachelorette that everyone's

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Speaker 3: gonna wank.

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Speaker 2: And also it's clever to have somebody who's already got

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Speaker 2: a profile exact And is that what they did with this?

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Speaker 1: Isn't she an influencer?

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Speaker 5: Yes?

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Speaker 3: So the woman who was meant to helm this new

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Speaker 3: season is Taylor Frankie Paul. She was originally known as

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Speaker 3: a Mum influencer, then for her role on Secret Lives

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Speaker 3: of Mormon Wives, which is a reality show that follows

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Speaker 3: a group of Mormon women whose lives often clash with

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Speaker 3: Mormon values.

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Speaker 1: That's what I know.

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Speaker 2: We don't want a sidebar on this, but I started

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Speaker 2: watching that show once because I was like, oh, I

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Speaker 2: want to know what this I've seen? What was that

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Speaker 2: show I used to watch about Sister Wives That was amazing,

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Speaker 2: big love, Oh my god love, and it was all

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Speaker 2: about like secret garments and all this, like golf. And

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Speaker 2: then I watched that one and those women they didn't

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Speaker 2: seem to be holding anything back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty out there.

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Speaker 3: It's very Mormon, but not Mormon controversy. Yes. So Taylor

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Speaker 3: in particular was involved in the soft swinging scandal that

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Speaker 3: was a big thing in twenty twenty two, which again

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Speaker 3: not very Mormon. That's not in the scriptures. So she's

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Speaker 3: cast on the Bachelorette.

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Speaker 4: That's not scriptures, it's not I'm so glad to hear.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what's in them, but I don't think

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Speaker 4: swinging and Mormon.

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Speaker 3: And it wasn't in there from memory. So she's cast

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Speaker 3: on the Bachelorette. And she again, she's a Utah Mum

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Speaker 3: influencer who is known for having a very turbulent relationship

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Speaker 3: with her ex partner, which had been reality TV fought up.

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Speaker 3: So they're broken up, that they have two kids to do.

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Speaker 4: And were they broken up in secret lives of Mormon wives.

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Speaker 3: So their tumultuous relationship was very much a PLoP P

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Speaker 3: got it?

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Speaker 2: Yes, And I know I might be pushing your knowledge

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Speaker 2: of the scripture.

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Speaker 1: Here, class. Clearly Mormons are allowed to get divorced.

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Speaker 2: Clearly they are right, well I thought they were, but

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Speaker 2: clearly if she's on the Bachelorette.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure they are. But they were never married. Oh,

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Speaker 3: they were together, had two kids, split up. So ABC

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Speaker 3: in the US has given her this fairy tale edit.

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Speaker 3: She was literally on the Oscars Red Carpet last week.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah yeah, so they're like, you know, everyone deserves

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Speaker 3: a happy ending, but her seasons due to air. And

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Speaker 3: at the end of last week, TMZ a video it's

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Speaker 3: shot on a smartphone of Frankie Paul fighting with her

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Speaker 3: ex Dakota Mortensen in their home with their five year

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Speaker 3: old daughter present. It was recorded in twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 3: and I don't actually advise that anyone watch it. I

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Speaker 3: wish I hadn't.

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Speaker 1: That's it quite. It's confronting you.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's it's very blurry, but it's more the sounds

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Speaker 3: that you don't want to hear, because it shows Frankie

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Speaker 3: Paul launching herself at her partner at the time, pulling

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Speaker 3: his hair, and she's throwing chairs at him, and then

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Speaker 3: it looks like at one point one of the chairs

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Speaker 3: hits the five year old and she shots, and that

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Speaker 3: sound of the sound of a child crying is just

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Speaker 3: so viscerally disturbing.

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Speaker 1: Did this video come from nowhere?

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Speaker 3: Well, they think once she gave a statement, it's clear

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Speaker 3: she believes it came from him, that it was leaked

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Speaker 3: from him. So ABC announced that take Frankie Paul's season

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Speaker 3: of The Bachelorette would not be airing, and as we've said,

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Speaker 3: that cancelation.

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Speaker 1: Is costing them a statish a huge deal.

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Speaker 2: Shouldn't they have done their due diligence before this, Like

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Speaker 2: did they know before the video gets leaked that she

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Speaker 2: had this? I'm going to use the word problematic, even

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Speaker 2: though it sounds much more serious than that about this

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Speaker 2: problematic incident in her past.

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Speaker 3: This is what is the elephant in the room. Is

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Speaker 3: that what this video shows, which is violence, isn't actually

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Speaker 3: news to anyone. Shouldn't be news to anyone, shouldn't be

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Speaker 3: news to ABC, shouldn't be news to anyone who's watched

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Speaker 3: Secret Lives of Mormon wives. Because Mortensen filed domestic violence

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Speaker 3: charges against Frankie Paul in February twenty twenty three, two

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Speaker 3: years ago, Frankie Paul struck a deal in which she

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Speaker 3: pleaded guilty to one count of aggravated assault, a third

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Speaker 3: degree felony, and had the other charges dismissed, including the

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Speaker 3: domestic violence charges. But that fight and its aftermath were

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Speaker 3: a plot point in season one of Secret Lives of

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Speaker 3: Mormon Why.

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Speaker 1: So it was more than an open secret?

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Speaker 3: YEP YEP, so it showed her interactions with local police

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Speaker 3: that that was all filmed. So it seems like it

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Speaker 3: was fine when it was for reality TV, and then

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Speaker 3: when we actually see the reality of it, it's suddenly

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Speaker 3: absolutely not fine. Holly, do you think we've sanitized violence

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Speaker 3: so much that it's not until we actually see footage

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Speaker 3: that we realize how abhorrent it is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I think that. I mean,

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Speaker 2: obviously I shouldn't say it goes without saying, but obviously

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Speaker 2: any kind of violence is abhorrent. Domestic violence statistics are

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Speaker 2: overwhelmingly that usually the perpetrator is a man, but obviously

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Speaker 2: in this instance that isn't the case. It's amazing that

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Speaker 2: it was excused or most trivialized and seen a bit

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Speaker 2: of a fun scandal until you see it.

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Speaker 1: And that's the thing.

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Speaker 2: And this is what I always say to my son about,

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Speaker 2: you know, or about violent video games and things, is like,

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Speaker 2: when you've got that removed distance between you and an

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Speaker 2: act of violence, it's easy to not have empathy.

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Speaker 1: It's easy to.

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Speaker 2: See it as some kind of sport, almost, But anyone

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Speaker 2: who sees violence up close in real life, you suddenly

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Speaker 2: see this very different human impact, and so it seems

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Speaker 2: to me incredibly cynical. I mean, I don't know all

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Speaker 2: the ins and outs, but on the face of it,

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Speaker 2: it seems incredibly cynical that they were like, she'll be

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Speaker 2: a great bachelorette because I don't know, maybe she's feisty,

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Speaker 2: she's got a big following, she's really attractive. We know

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Speaker 2: she's probably going to cause some drama. And then you're

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Speaker 2: confronted with no, this is why she has this reputation,

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Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, we didn't know it was that bad.

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Speaker 1: It's like, well, what did you think.

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Speaker 4: She literally pled guilty to aggravated assault. She I believe that,

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Speaker 4: as you mentioned, the domestic lines charges would dropped, but

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Speaker 4: it's just a shame to me that this was actually

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Speaker 4: adjudicated legally and she was found liable, and yet the

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Speaker 4: TV network, as you say, just thought that was a fun,

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Speaker 4: racy plot point.

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Speaker 3: And it makes me think about all the times there

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Speaker 3: are men on our screens right now who have been

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Speaker 3: found guilty of all kinds of crimes, and we do

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Speaker 3: kind of think, like I honestly think that those terms

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Speaker 3: have become so widely used and so familiar that you

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Speaker 3: genuinely don't picture what it actually looks like. And I

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Speaker 3: think if any of us saw footage of what a

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Speaker 3: lot of high profile people are accused of, we just

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Speaker 3: could not endorse them.

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Speaker 1: So what are the things going to happen?

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 2: I mean, because they've obviously spent a fortune making this show,

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Speaker 2: elevating this woman to a certain position, and now they're

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Speaker 2: just they have to can it? Are they talking about

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Speaker 2: there being any repercussions? Like what might happen next?

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Speaker 3: I don't know, it's very much because I.

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Speaker 2: Think I saw some shots of her wearing some T

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Speaker 2: shirt that was a bit provocative and like almost as

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Speaker 2: if she's just playing it along with it.

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Speaker 3: Well, her statement was interesting in the wake of it.

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Speaker 3: So she responded to the video's release through a representative

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Speaker 3: to people, and the response said, releasing an old video,

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Speaker 3: which conveniently omits context is a reprehensible attempt to distract

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Speaker 3: from his own behavior. Right, So about her.

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Speaker 2: Ex So she might be insinuating that there was violence

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Speaker 2: on his part, Yes, not that we you know, Yes.

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Speaker 3: But it's a fascinating statement because you just think there's

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Speaker 3: absolutely no excuse. There's no there is no excuse for

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Speaker 3: the violence that you that you saw in that video

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Speaker 3: and it was not the response that the public needed.

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Speaker 4: My question is, did you watch the show Secret Lives

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Speaker 4: of Moms. I wonder if part of it was that

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Speaker 4: that also kind of sanitized it and just dismissed it,

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Speaker 4: and so they thought they could get away with this.

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Speaker 3: Yes. Yes, And interestingly, both the production company that created

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Speaker 3: Secret Lives of Mormon Wives and production company that are

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Speaker 3: doing the Bachroolette the Bachelorette are both owned by Disney,

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Speaker 3: and so it is very interesting one that it's Disney

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Speaker 3: and that it's kind of this fairy tale idea, but

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Speaker 3: also that it's the same you know, it's the same

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Speaker 3: powers that be that clearly thought, Okay, this is the

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Speaker 3: kind of scandal that gets us ratings, and this is

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Speaker 3: the kind of person who gets us ratings. And now

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Speaker 3: have turned around and said, oh, not like.

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Speaker 1: That, not like that.

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Speaker 4: After the break, the things that we did at primary

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Speaker 4: school that we should also do at work.

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Speaker 3: Have you ever been at work and thought, why did

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Speaker 3: I fight nap time so hard in pre school? That's

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Speaker 3: me every day around midday? What I would do for

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Speaker 3: a little cot and some quiet time, maybe a lovely

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Speaker 3: person stroking my back telling me to relax. How did

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Speaker 3: I take it? So? For granted that my mum packed

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Speaker 3: my lunch, but then also sometimes forgot, so sometimes she

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Speaker 3: did a lunch shorder and it smelt so good and

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Speaker 3: the oil kind of went through the paper and you're

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Speaker 3: like meat pie. Well, last week, our brilliant ep Ruth

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Speaker 3: shared a video to all of us with absolutely no context.

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Speaker 3: It was an Instagram reel of a British man sharing

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Speaker 3: the things that he did at primary school that he

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Speaker 3: thought we should also do it work, And holy wow,

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Speaker 3: I knew Ruth was a genius, but my goodness, here's

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Speaker 3: a few suggestions that digital content creator Freddie Allison had

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Speaker 3: for us.

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Speaker 4: All I think we should mention that he was talking

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Speaker 4: into a microphone fashion from a toilet rush.

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Speaker 3: Fact no nice an expert, yes, absolutely taking himself very serious.

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Speaker 8: Here are some things we did at primary score that

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Speaker 8: we should also do at work. Leave at quarter past three,

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Speaker 8: occasionally watch Shrek to on a Friday afternoon, play with

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Speaker 8: this thing, mark each other's work. I'm looking at you, Linda,

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Speaker 8: cry because you want to go home? Played up duck

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Speaker 8: Goose in the conference room. Yearly trip to the zoo,

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Speaker 8: dress up because it's World Book Day. Have thirteen weeks

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Speaker 8: off every year, get chosen by your boss to take

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Speaker 8: a note to the office down the hallway, go on

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Speaker 8: the apparatus, get picked up by your mum because your

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Speaker 8: stomach hurts, and run around screaming because there's a dog outside.

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Speaker 1: Oh so good, ever good.

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Speaker 3: It is simply all I've thought about. One of the

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Speaker 3: comments was play heads down thumbs up because there's only

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Speaker 3: a few minutes left of the day and it's not

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Speaker 3: enough time to start anything. I'm like, yea more of that, Amelia,

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Speaker 3: What would you like.

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Speaker 4: To unlocked a core memory for a week? Because it's

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Speaker 4: raining in Sydney today? And it just reminded me that

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Speaker 4: whenever it range, teachers would bang on at EHS or

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Speaker 4: something or other and I love that.

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Speaker 9: Why should I.

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Speaker 4: Be working when I should be watching a weird nineteen

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Speaker 4: eighties BBC series about children who are also coal miners.

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Speaker 4: I feel like that was always what I.

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Speaker 6: Have to know.

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Speaker 1: This will you will wheel the TV?

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Speaker 2: You see the TV be wielded and you're like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was so good.

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Speaker 4: Sick bay. We need a sick bay, not because you're

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Speaker 4: actually sick, but because you just need a place to

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Speaker 4: be just with a little plastic curtain that you can

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Speaker 4: pull across, just a little bit of silence, and a

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Speaker 4: kindly school nurse just coming by saying are you doing okay? Last,

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Speaker 4: that's what I need.

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Speaker 3: You need in between space between being a work being

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Speaker 3: at home.

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Speaker 4: Yes, healthy Harald visits, except this time the giraffe that

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Speaker 4: comes to the school in the van is telling us

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Speaker 4: all about how to be healthy as an adult, which,

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Speaker 4: as we all know, is repeat after me, protein flossying,

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Speaker 4: resistance training, this is, and then finally, I just want

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Speaker 4: to say, pencil cases. I know it's not a thing

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Speaker 4: to do, but nothing gives me more joy than a

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Speaker 4: pencil case.

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Speaker 3: I need colors. Why don't I have colors? I don't true?

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Speaker 1: Why don't I need to bring all my coloring pens in?

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Speaker 2: I would like gold stars for good work and participation

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Speaker 2: medals when I don't quite reach.

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Speaker 1: But I don't quite reach the mark.

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Speaker 2: Today, Holly, after out loud, you get a participation medal

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Speaker 2: good trying.

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Speaker 1: I tried really hard.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, if it's not rewarded enough in adult.

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Speaker 2: No, it's really not. I'd like quiet time and a

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Speaker 2: little lunch. In fact, I often have a little lunch

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Speaker 2: I was thinking about that often before this record.

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Speaker 1: I'll have a little lunch with a little.

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Speaker 4: Bit of a Brooklyn Beckham hot sauce.

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Speaker 1: Yes, crunch and sip.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I would like to be able to point at

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Speaker 2: one of my coworkers and just says it was when

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Speaker 2: something goes wrong, and for that to be accepted. Have

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Speaker 2: you finished the record yet, I'm not frowned upon. It

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Speaker 2: would be like accountability.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, no, it was her.

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Speaker 2: I used to wear because it was a long time

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Speaker 2: ago and it was in England, it was cold. I

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Speaker 2: used to wear a matching woolen polar neck and wooly

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Speaker 2: tights with a cordroy.

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Speaker 4: Sorry that sounds like CBK level side.

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Speaker 1: And I used to wear that to my primary school.

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Speaker 2: And when I think about that outfit now, I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it was rocking.

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Speaker 3: Was it itchy?

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Speaker 1: Though? We'd all go like this.

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Speaker 2: I was always going like this, so like pulling up

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Speaker 2: our collars, pulling it out and trying to like because

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Speaker 2: it was really itchy, but it was cool.

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Speaker 1: It was some cloth kits.

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Speaker 2: Actually, considering my gross children, I would also like a

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Speaker 2: return of the knit nurse. We used to have a

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Speaker 2: woman who'd come in and go through your hair, and

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Speaker 2: it was so embarrassing.

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Speaker 1: And she'd get you all in the hall and go

404
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Speaker 1: through your hair and then be like.

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Speaker 2: You home, you home, you nurse, and you'd be like,

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Speaker 2: oh no, the knit nurse came and I'd like a

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Speaker 2: little sewing session like the first when you're having a

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Speaker 2: bit of downtime. We used to make like caterpillar pencil cases.

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Speaker 1: We could make pencil case crafts.

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Speaker 4: Crafts, yes, more craft carpentry.

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Speaker 2: Yes. Remember Actually when we first moved into this office

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Speaker 2: at Mama Mia, we were all encouraged to craft our

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Speaker 2: water bottles.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I think I've got mine.

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Speaker 4: There we go.

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Speaker 1: Mine's got a little b on it.

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Speaker 2: And that was the most fun I've had it work

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Speaker 2: in a really long time. And I was not very

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Speaker 2: creative at all. If you're watching this on video on Apple,

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Speaker 2: you can.

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Speaker 4: See my beat.

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Speaker 1: But more crafting please, crafting corner.

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Speaker 3: That's very primary school coded mineor genuinely, why don't we

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Speaker 3: do news, slash show and tell anymore.

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Speaker 1: On Monday mornings.

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Speaker 4: You're on a podcast, I know, but it's.

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Speaker 3: Not like I don't have a big enough physical audience.

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Speaker 3: I want to share in front of and tell them.

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Speaker 3: One story from my weekend, and.

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Speaker 4: I want people to be h tell into your drive.

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Speaker 3: I know that's actually very true.

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Speaker 2: That is what people are doing in the kitchen on

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Speaker 2: Monday mornings right there are people say how is your weekend?

434
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,320
Speaker 2: And depending on your energy levels, you're either like it

435
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,720
Speaker 2: was amazing, this happened, and this happened, just like fine.

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00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 2: But if you had to bring something tore your weekend,

437
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,240
Speaker 2: and in this office full of young people, sometimes it

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00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:16,639
Speaker 2: might be an empty bottle of.

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Speaker 3: Rows, the story that goes along job of the movie ticket.

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Speaker 3: I also would like to bring back swimming and athletics carnival.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't Did you actually enjoy these?

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00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:34,840
Speaker 3: I enjoyed participating. It's more that I'm curious about other people.

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Speaker 1: I want to swim.

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00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 4: Running in her corduroy skirt. I don't want to see

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Speaker 4: anyone in this swimmer.

446
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,879
Speaker 1: If we had a running race, would win?

447
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 4: Would?

448
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:48,199
Speaker 3: I think?

449
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 4: Would us wildly flattered right now? But I definitely a

450
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 4: lot of cannibals. I generally said that I have my

451
00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,159
Speaker 4: period regardless of see that's another thing I use to

452
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 4: do in high school. It's probably a bit of a delinquent,

453
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 4: but I never wanted to do pe. I always have

454
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 4: my period. I've tried saying on this podcast, like I

455
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,640
Speaker 4: can't do it because I have my period, and producer

456
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,679
Speaker 4: Ruth is unimpressed. Everyone like there are free tampons in

457
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:14,919
Speaker 4: the bathroom.

458
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,359
Speaker 2: By high school and the matildas would not approve of this.

459
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,640
Speaker 2: I would always try and be picked last for all

460
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 2: the sports because so I just keep going at the back,

461
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,679
Speaker 2: and as the numbers dwindled, I've got start at the

462
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,440
Speaker 2: back again. So we could just do that with the

463
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 2: Podco's on the pod today and I just got hide

464
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 2: behind him.

465
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,360
Speaker 4: What about me? Actually that's a.

466
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 1: Representation on our new logo.

467
00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:39,200
Speaker 3: We're all trying to stand behind each other. I would

468
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,520
Speaker 3: also like I always liked assembly at school because I

469
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 3: like watching people sing and dance. You know, when people

470
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:50,160
Speaker 3: did a performance that was lovely. I liked when Mum

471
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 3: picked me up for an orthodontist appointment and we'd get

472
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 3: a donut and or a chocolate milkshake on the way.

473
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 3: It was really special.

474
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 2: I just thought about the singing and dancing is you

475
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 2: know when there's a big album them out that the

476
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 2: new Taylor Swift album comes out, Oh Harry Styles last week,

477
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 2: myself and Tessa, who works on this show, we could,

478
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 2: if you like, stand up and give you a full

479
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 2: rendition all the time occasionally.

480
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 1: Would you like that?

481
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 10: Yes?

482
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 3: And I'm sure someone in this office can sing, and

483
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 3: I would just like this song because my answering. I

484
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:20,719
Speaker 3: just want to watch.

485
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 2: After the break, one of the most iconic millennial feminists

486
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 2: has opened up about the true state of a polyamorous marriage,

487
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 2: and nobody can get enough.

488
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 9: My only currency in life was like, does a harm

489
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 9: like me? How does a harm feel? What's a harmdoing?

490
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 9: And if I didn't have that, I was like nothing.

491
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 9: Polyamory is like the perfect antidote to codependency.

492
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 6: Some of the stereotypes it is that how could there

493
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 6: be enough to go around? Enough time, enough attention, enough love.

494
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 4: I have the greatest love in my life right now

495
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 4: than I've ever had before, and it has never felt

496
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 4: this good. You know, we're told this is too good

497
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:04,640
Speaker 4: to be trial.

498
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 2: Okay, So I know that we've all been following the

499
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 2: discourse that's been happening online over the past week about

500
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 2: Lindy West, But I'm sure that lots of people listening

501
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 2: to this don't know who Lindy West is.

502
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: So a Meily. How would you characterize her?

503
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 2: She's obviously she's a writer, a prominent feminist screenwriter, article writer.

504
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 2: Where would you sort of put her in the culture.

505
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 4: She kind of was the feminist writer in for millennials.

506
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 4: She peeked in that sort of the early twenty tens.

507
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 4: She wrote for a website called Jezebel that was very

508
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 4: famous for its feminist hop takes. She was very active

509
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 4: on Twitter. She had this movement called hashtag shot your Abortion,

510
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 4: because it was back when we thought that if you

511
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 4: put a hashtag in front of a phrase, it makes

512
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 4: it cooler. And then she wrote like really kind of edgy,

513
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 4: very controversial at the time, takes that kind of pushed

514
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 4: feminism forward. So she used to have a column called

515
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 4: hell Oh I Am Fat because she was known for

516
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 4: her body positivity. She wrote this essay called how to

517
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 4: Make a Rape Joke where she basically called out the

518
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,479
Speaker 4: misogyny that was so rampant in stand up comedy that

519
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 4: no one kind of realized until the twenty tens. And

520
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 4: she she was very much peak millennial feminism.

521
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I remember there was this iconic episode of

522
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 2: This American Life which very much puts all this in context.

523
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 2: This was in the twenty thirteens where she tracked down

524
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 2: an internet troll of hers.

525
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: It's actually an amazing.

526
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 4: It's one of the best I would say audio experience

527
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 4: one hundred and seven.

528
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: So big, big deal.

529
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 2: So that's sir Lindy west Is. You might have You

530
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 2: might also be familiar with her work. She wrote a

531
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 2: memoir called Shrill, which was a big success in New

532
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 2: York Times Bestseller and then it got picked up and

533
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 2: turned into a really well received TV show. You might

534
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: have heard her when she was at the peak of

535
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 2: all of that kind of internet culture writing. She came

536
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 2: on No Filter and spoke to me about Shrill. I

537
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 2: think back in twenty seventeen. So she's a big deal.

538
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: The reason we're talking about her She's got a new

539
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 2: memoir at we talked about memoirs on Friday and about

540
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 2: the importance of truth or or not when it comes

541
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 2: to memoir. Lindy's new memoir is called Adult Braces, and

542
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 2: it kind of picks up a bit where Shrill left off,

543
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: which is at the end of Shrill. So Lindy, obviously,

544
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: as Amelia said, was written about all these important feminist issues.

545
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 1: In twenty fifteen, Lindy got married.

546
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 2: She married her partner, musician and writer ahamafule Oluo, who

547
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 2: she always refers to as Aham. Right, So she and

548
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 2: Araham married.

549
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: I remember the.

550
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 2: Pictures so clearly, this beautiful, very like hipster wedding.

551
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 4: And shrill very much kind of ended with the happy

552
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 4: ending of them together and married.

553
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then in twenty twenty two, so seven years

554
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 2: after their marriage, Lindy and Aham and another woman called

555
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 2: Roya came out as it were, as a thropple, so

556
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 2: that there are three of them in their relationship, and

557
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,360
Speaker 2: they talked about their polyamory. So it's not new that

558
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 2: that's her domestic arrangement she lives. And this is why,

559
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 2: in lots of ways, Lindy West has become in this

560
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 2: moment get to twenty twenty six, a kind of almost

561
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 2: like a conservative commentators fantasy.

562
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: Of what a really woke lefty is.

563
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 2: Like, you know, she lives in a cabin in the

564
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 2: woods in the Pacific Northwest, and she's got a nose

565
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 2: ring and she's living with her you know, two in

566
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 2: her thropple, which I think they call a closed triad,

567
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: Like it's it kind of ticks a lot of boxes

568
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 2: of stereotypical lefty jokes for those people well.

569
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 4: And also we should mention that that twenty twenty two

570
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 4: video that is online where they come out as a thruple,

571
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 4: I think it's safe to say it made a lot

572
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 4: of people uncomfortable, not just conservatives. I think a lot

573
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 4: of people saw. What they thought they saw in that

574
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 4: video was that Lindy West had kind of settled for

575
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 4: a relationship where she would always be second best to Roya.

576
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,360
Speaker 4: This was how it was received online and part of.

577
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 2: That, Let's be really honest, and Lindy talked about this herself,

578
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 2: and she thinks this is one of the reasons why

579
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 2: people struggle with a lot is Roya is kind of

580
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 2: conventionally sort of tiny and attractive in a way that

581
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: Lindy has often written about not feeling so people reading

582
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 2: a lot into that relationship, even though Lindy West herself

583
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 2: has always been very open about it. Anyway, fast forward

584
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 2: to now and why we're talking about it today. There

585
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 2: is a new memoir that Linda's written called Adult Braces.

586
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: The memoir follows Lindy driving across the US after finding

587
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 2: out that Aham, who identifies as non binary but also

588
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 2: uses the pronouns hear him says he wants to open

589
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 2: up the marriage and how basically it's the story of

590
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 2: how they got from that wedding day to being in

591
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 2: this closed triad in the woods, and the internet has

592
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 2: lost its mind. Claire Stevens, what are the kind of

593
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: things they're saying.

594
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 3: So the kind of discourse, as Amelia said, it's sort

595
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 3: of started with that video where the three of them

596
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,719
Speaker 3: came out with this is what our relationship structure looks like.

597
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 3: And there was a lot of backlash about an analysis

598
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 3: of body language and whether this was what Linda really wanted,

599
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 3: which was a bit like kind of condescending, and so

600
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 3: that was kind of the discourse. Then she's written this

601
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 3: memoir and it's that intensified times a million.

602
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 2: So there are a million headlines on substack, for example,

603
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 2: that are all about how she looks like she's in

604
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 2: polyamory under juress.

605
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 4: Not just on substack. There's an article in the Atlantic

606
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 4: which simply says, I don't believe her when she says

607
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 4: she's happy in this relationship.

608
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 3: And there's another substack that calls it train wreck feminism

609
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 3: and talks about women who convince themselves that they're happy

610
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 3: in a particular arrangement and that they chose it when

611
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 3: it's almost like watching someone self harm. So there's basically

612
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 3: a lot of concern and whether you'd call that faux

613
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 3: concern performative concern for Lindy West.

614
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: So she's addressed a bit of this in an Instagram

615
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 2: live that she posted the other day. She said, just

616
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 2: to frame this before you hear it. So she's driving

617
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 2: in a car when she's talking, so that explains.

618
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 1: The audio a bit.

619
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 2: But she says, I know I shouldn't respond, She said,

620
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: I know I shouldn't bite it back, but some of

621
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 2: this is wild. She sort of explains that Ahammad said

622
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 2: from the beginning that he wasn't going to be monogamous,

623
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 2: so she sort of frames it as she was making

624
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 2: him perform monogamy under duress. And she says the argument

625
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 2: that the book is a sort of manual on polyamory

626
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 2: is wrong. This is what she says in a part

627
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 2: of that.

628
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 10: Her book is not a polyamory game. First of all,

629
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 10: the book, most of the book is not even about polyamory.

630
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 10: So and either way, all the stuff in the book

631
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 10: that's not about polyamory, where I am going through these

632
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 10: like hard fought mental health battles. Alhama's instrumental in supporting,

633
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 10: in helping me through all of those. I don't know

634
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 10: how to even quantify the ways that a harm held

635
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 10: me up for those years. It's all for fifteen years now,

636
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 10: you know, And like, show me any couple that doesn't

637
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 10: have some problems. I don't. It's like and I just

638
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 10: tried to write an honest book and it just so happens.

639
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 10: And I say this a little bit, that my experience

640
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 10: is easier for the mainstream narrative to empathize with than

641
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 10: a harm.

642
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: Yes, I want to be a pain supponent. I have

643
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: not read this book, and I bet that most of.

644
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 2: The people who are critiquing it online have also not

645
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 2: read this book.

646
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: But why do you think people are so upset?

647
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 3: One thing I find fascinating and that there has then

648
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 3: been discourse about the discourse and all of that because

649
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 3: Lindy has commented, So she's done that video, she's done

650
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 3: a substack post kind of engage with the criticism, and

651
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 3: it's not the criticism isn't criticism of her. It is

652
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 3: actually more criticism of a harm. And basically a lot

653
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 3: of people are saying there's a difference between a transparent,

654
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 3: mutually agreed upon polyamorous relationship and one where there's cheating involved.

655
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 3: And by Lindy's account in her book and in the interviews,

656
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 3: and that's the other thing I agree. People haven't read

657
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,719
Speaker 3: the book, but there is a modern love, very detailed

658
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 3: modern love.

659
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: There's a lot of source material out there.

660
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 3: There's a slave profile. There actually is a lot that

661
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 3: has come directly from her. By Lindy West's own account,

662
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 3: she was not comfortable with being in a non monogamous

663
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 3: relationship and it was presented to her by a harm

664
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 3: as an ultimatum to her at a time where she

665
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 3: was grieving her father and she didn't want a harm

666
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 3: to leave her, so she tacitly agreed in the sense

667
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 3: that she was. She says she was kicking it down

668
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 3: the line, hoping that it would never actually come to fruition.

669
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: It's kind of what you want, but whatever exactly.

670
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 3: Then she hears through a fan of hers that Aham

671
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,239
Speaker 3: was hooking up with another woman in a bar in

672
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 3: the neighborhood. So, Holly, imagine how you would feel if

673
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 3: somebody if if an out louder said, hey, just saw

674
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 3: Brent hooking up with somebody and the humiliation because obviously

675
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 3: other people don't don't know and as far as she knows,

676
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 3: that's not happen.

677
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, but she the way that this story unfolds, the

678
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: understand it issue, that's all in the past, right, So

679
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 2: this all happened. He cheated on her, That's how they

680
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 2: kind of worked out. Like she was like, oh, he

681
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 2: meant it about that, which is why she was saying

682
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 2: in that thing there was monogamy under duress and then

683
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 2: that led them through the But why does nobody want

684
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 2: to believe her about where they're at now?

685
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 3: I don't even know if it's well. I think one

686
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 3: aspect of it that I find really interesting is that

687
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,959
Speaker 3: part of millennial Internet writing was vulnerability and was showing

688
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 3: your skuf personal essay, yes, and was very much and

689
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 3: Lindy West has written she wrote about in Shrill, and

690
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 3: she has talked about it in these interviews where she

691
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 3: has said, I have never had a functional relationship where

692
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 3: somebody just puts me on a pedestal and loves me

693
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 3: like that is not what was ever presented to me

694
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 3: as an option. And so people are sort of reading

695
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 3: into this and thinking well, if that was never presented

696
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 3: to you as an option, then maybe you think this

697
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 3: is the only option and they're analyzing it to death.

698
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 2: But what about her point that, like, they've been together

699
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 2: for nearly two decades and he's her number one supporter

700
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 2: and they're madly in love. Why do you think do

701
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 2: you think we're just we are like we don't want

702
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 2: to And I'm not suggesting that here on this podcast

703
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 2: we're going to prosecute whether or not that's true. I

704
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: want to I'm prosecuting like that conversation that we will

705
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: not believe it. It's almost like there is not a

706
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 2: world in which we like hearing that there could be

707
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 2: another version of marriage other than the traditional one we like.

708
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 4: Yes, I think Lindy would have answers to that. I

709
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 4: think she would point to sizism because, as mentioned, Roya

710
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 4: is a small woman and Lindy describes herself as fat.

711
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 4: And I think Lindy would also point to racism because

712
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,720
Speaker 4: Aham is a person of color and she has spoken

713
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 4: about how she feels that a lot of the discussion

714
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 4: around monogamy is inherently white centric. That's what Lindy would

715
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 4: say in answer to the question of why are people

716
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 4: so unable to believe her?

717
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 3: When you write a memoir and when you then go

718
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 3: and promote that memoir and you're interviewed and you share

719
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 3: your story, people automatically the point of empathy is Lindy right.

720
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: People like when you hear we we know her right?

721
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 3: Yes? And you know her and so when she tells

722
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 3: you something, you you I mean, contrary to a lot

723
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,479
Speaker 3: of this commentary, you do trust her as a voice,

724
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 3: and you do empathize with her. The really tricky thing

725
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 3: is that in this book and in those interviews, she

726
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 3: is telling us that a Harm did horrible things. There

727
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 3: is a part in the book where she writes, when

728
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 3: Ahm was hooking up with the woman in their neighborhood,

729
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:33,959
Speaker 3: that Harm did things that were really bad that she's

730
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:35,959
Speaker 3: not going to put in the book, and that would

731
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 3: have made her entirely justified in leaving their marriage. And

732
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 3: that's what she doesn't include.

733
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. She also says, though, that they both did a

734
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 2: lot of shitty things. She said, we're in that video

735
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 2: that I was just playing a bit obvious. She says,

736
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 2: this is a story about emotionally immature people hurting each other.

737
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: Yes, so I guess what I'm asking is like, that's

738
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: her story.

739
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 2: Yes, And I feel like if someone's going to tell

740
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 2: you their memoir and they're going to say, you know,

741
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 2: all these complicated things happen in my relationship, but at

742
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 2: the moment, this is where my relationships at and I'm.

743
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 1: Quite happy in it.

744
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: I find it really interesting that most of the pushback

745
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 2: is just like, we don't believe.

746
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 3: I think there's also she so she's told this story,

747
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 3: and she has shown herself being hurt, and in the

748
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 3: interviews she has talked about being hurt, and the interviews

749
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,800
Speaker 3: and from all accounts that I've seen, the book doesn't

750
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 3: really focus on right now, like they're like the modern

751
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 3: love interview that I have listened to, she says, I

752
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 3: married a harm I wanted a traditional marriage. I thought

753
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 3: that we'd have a baby and buy a house. And

754
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 3: when she's asked at the very end, okay, so you

755
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 3: thought that, how do you feel now, She's sort of like, oh,

756
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 3: well it changed.

757
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: Yeah people change, though, you know what I mean? Yeah,

758
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: people do change. I don't know.

759
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 2: I find myself a bit defensive of her because I

760
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 2: personally I like seeing lots of different examples of how

761
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 2: women can live their lives, lots of different kinds of relationships,

762
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 2: lots of different dynamics rather than there was one and

763
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: it's a white picket fence and a wedding isn't ending.

764
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,800
Speaker 2: You know, that's the narrative we like to tell, fairy

765
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:21,919
Speaker 2: tale narrative.

766
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 4: That she told herself and Shell yeah.

767
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:23,919
Speaker 1: To a point.

768
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 2: But then that's a point in her life where you

769
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,439
Speaker 2: press pause because you've you know, that's where you're at

770
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:29,720
Speaker 2: and you're writing that story.

771
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 1: But then you.

772
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,240
Speaker 2: Press play again right after you walk down the aisle,

773
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 2: and a whole lot of different things happen. And I

774
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: think that we love so the obsession we have, say

775
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 2: with the Lily Allen album, and I share this obsession

776
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 2: West End Girl is because it confirms all the biases

777
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 2: we actually have about polyamory, which are generally women never

778
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 2: want it. These are the things that we generally decide

779
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 2: women never want it. It's generally an excuse for men

780
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 2: to cheat, and it will end in tears. Now, all

781
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 2: those things might be true, it might well end in tears,

782
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 2: but lots of relationships in tears, lots of traditional marriages,

783
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: and in tears, lots of people get betrayed by people

784
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 2: betraying them, cheating on them when they said they wouldn't,

785
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 2: not when they said they would. So I find it

786
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 2: interesting that, like whether or not Lindy West's marriage or

787
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 2: anyone's marriage is healthy not healthy, whether she should have

788
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,479
Speaker 2: forgiven him, whether she shouldn't, whatever, it's just like, why

789
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 2: we're all so upset about it, Why the Internet's so

790
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 2: upset about it. There are lots of memoirs out there

791
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 2: about bad relationships, cheating, forgiving, cheating, not forgiving, cheating, coming

792
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 2: to terms, deciding to leave.

793
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:39,240
Speaker 3: Like, one thing I've seen that I thought was quite

794
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 3: clever was that perhaps we are looking at instead of

795
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 3: Lindy West, the person with a whole lot of nuances,

796
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 3: because you're exactly right, like you press pause on a memoir,

797
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 3: you're married. But I mean, that's what's always so fascinating

798
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 3: about any fairy tale narrative, is it's like and that

799
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 3: after that, and then what happens is it's always messy.

800
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,439
Speaker 3: That's what life is. But I think people are looking

801
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 3: at Lindy West, this symbol, and they're looking at this

802
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 3: person who in the twenty tens taught them to love

803
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 3: themselves and accept themselves and very much taught them. For example,

804
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 3: she was always really great with that troll conversation that

805
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 3: she's known for. She was really great at kind of

806
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 3: how to respond to people being.

807
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,399
Speaker 1: Dicks and how and how to deal with dickey men.

808
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 3: Yes, and a little bit of a twist this is

809
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 3: this is a bit gos fever. You know, the outlouders

810
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 3: love a little bit of gossip. A journalist from Slate

811
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 3: went to Lindy West's cabin.

812
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:46,760
Speaker 1: She has led a few journalists into the cabin.

813
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 2: I would be I would not, I'd be like canceling

814
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 2: the ferry service to my island at this point.

815
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 3: Yes, well, so, I think people are also a little

816
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 3: bit annoyed in that they've held Lindy West up as

817
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 3: a symbol and they feel like there's a bit of

818
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 3: contradiction going on. So long story short. Slate the publication

819
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 3: profiled Lindy West and interviewed both Royer and Aham. And

820
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 3: when the profile came out, which was incredibly balanced and

821
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 3: I didn't see anything snarky in it at all. It

822
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 3: was very pro Lindy. The journalist had a line where

823
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 3: she just said a harm and Royer weren't at the

824
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 3: house when I interviewed Lindy. They were working on a

825
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 3: shared project elsewhere, and Aham sent a very aggressive, borderline

826
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 3: abusive email to this journalist. And the email to this

827
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 3: journalist said you are a shitty fucking person. You're a bitter, untalented,

828
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 3: mean girl, and you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself

829
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 3: such and it was objectively an awful, awful email. And

830
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:55,399
Speaker 3: the journalist has shared that and basically said, there's one

831
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 3: person on the internet who taught me how to respond

832
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 3: to things like that, and it was West and now

833
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 3: it's her partner doing that.

834
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 2: So it's like her standing as a kick ass feminist

835
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 2: is may be being undermined by her private life exactly.

836
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 2: Ah If you, like us, are a little bit obsessed

837
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 2: with this story and polyamory and all of the intricate

838
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 2: bits and bobs, We're going to do a subs episode

839
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 2: about it with Mia, because believe me, that woman has

840
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 2: thoughts too, So keep an ear out for that.

841
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 4: This week, Chapel Rowan's in trouble again. Poor Chapel. Oh

842
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 4: I love Chapel, but it may not be what it seems.

843
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 4: Let me tell you the story. It all unfolded this

844
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 4: weekend in South Paolo Brazil. Georgin Yao is a very

845
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,280
Speaker 4: famous soccer player. He was born in Brazil. He's played

846
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 4: for Chelsea and Arsenal. Obviously I know everything about him.

847
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 4: They didn't just look this.

848
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: He would have been watching The Matilda's on Saturday night.

849
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

850
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,439
Speaker 4: He is world famous and hugely popular in the way

851
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 4: that soccer stars are. He has four point nine million

852
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,959
Speaker 4: Instagram followers, and on Saturday he put them all on black.

853
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 4: He shared about a very upsetting situation which happened to

854
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,680
Speaker 4: his new wife, Katherine Harding. She's an Irish singer and

855
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 4: his stepdaughter, So brace yourself for this very upsetting situation.

856
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 4: It seems that Catherine and eleven year old Ada were

857
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 4: eating breakfast at a fancy restaurant in South Pallo and

858
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 4: they spotted Chapel Roll across the room. She was in

859
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 4: town for a concert. What happened next depends a bit

860
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 4: on your point of view, because, according to georgin no

861
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 4: how Ada and Catherine merely walked past Chapel's table merely

862
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 4: to establish that it was, in fact the singer Chapel.

863
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: That's that Chapel Row? Is it that Chapel Roll? Now,

864
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: don't let's go have a look.

865
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 4: On their way to getting one of those like little

866
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 4: mini pastries that I love getting at hotel breakfasts. And

867
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 4: then they went back to their table, and then Chapel

868
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 4: security came over and threatened and harassed them. Now, Georgino

869
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 4: wrote in all caps on Instagram to his millions of followers.

870
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 4: Without your fans, you would be nothing and to the fans,

871
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 4: she does not deserve your affection in all caps, my.

872
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 2: Mate Chapel, and if anyone doesn't know, she is the

873
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 2: amazing singer behind Pink Pony Club and Hot to Go

874
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,520
Speaker 2: and my favorite is seven Nomenon and good luck babe.

875
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 2: She's amazing, but she has got a reputation for having

876
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 2: very strong boundaries with paps and fans.

877
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,879
Speaker 4: So that I will be real with you, Holly. When

878
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 4: I saw this story on Saturday, I thought to myself

879
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 4: that Chapel is such a diva. She's at it again.

880
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 4: Two weeks ago she was shouting at the perps when

881
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 4: she was having dinner. Boy George got in on this,

882
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 4: like after this happened, he said, she just needs to

883
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 4: own her fame. And that's how everyone felt about it.

884
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,919
Speaker 4: They just thought she's being so annoying and demanding because

885
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 4: she wants her privacy now she's eating breakfast and these

886
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 4: people were just wanting to admire her. From afar, Well,

887
00:44:57,760 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 4: it turns out that the story was a little bit

888
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 4: more complicated. Chappell talked to Instagram herself yesterday. That's what

889
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 4: you do, you take to Instagram. She filmed herself in bed.

890
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 4: I just I do question why everything now has to

891
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,919
Speaker 4: be filmed while people are lying supine, And she said

892
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 4: that a the security guard was not her personal security guard,

893
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,439
Speaker 4: and that B she had never even seen the mother

894
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 4: and daughter. Let's take a lesson.

895
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 5: I'm just gonna tell my haf of the story of

896
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 5: what happened today with a mother and child who were

897
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 5: involved with a security guard who is my personal security.

898
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 4: I didn't even see.

899
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 5: I didn't even see a woman and a child like

900
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 5: I did not know. One came up to me, no

901
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 5: one bothered me.

902
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 4: So obviously we'll never know the truth of what happened,

903
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:49,439
Speaker 4: but I think it does speak to where we're at

904
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 4: that it's so easy and seductive for us to immediately

905
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 4: assume the worst of the woman in any given situation.

906
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 1: She had to say in that video, I do not

907
00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 1: hate children.

908
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 4: How to hate children exactly.

909
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 11: And you're like, wow, and is it that outlandish that

910
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 11: a security guard might just go up to somebody and

911
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 11: have a go at them, because sometimes security guards do

912
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 11: that without for.

913
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 4: The record, breakfast. I'm not good at breakfast. If fans

914
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 4: approached me at breakfast, I tend to get my security

915
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 4: guard to move them on. So, look, this reminded me

916
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 4: of another woman who got shamed in the public eye,

917
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 4: which was Kristin Cabot. Now that name will sound familiar

918
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,959
Speaker 4: to you because she was in the Coldplay kiss Cam

919
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 4: and that got three hundred billion How is that now?

920
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 2: There are only eight billion people in the world. I

921
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 2: think we watched that video multiple three hundred billion views.

922
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,760
Speaker 4: You watched the Oprah special.

923
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:48,359
Speaker 1: I did so.

924
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 2: I At first, when I saw that Oprah was interviewing

925
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 2: Christian Cabot, I was like, surely I've heard all of

926
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 2: this because she she did a New York Times piece.

927
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 2: It was the first time she spoke after the event,

928
00:46:58,520 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 2: and I was like, why are you talking? But then

929
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 2: when I listened, it was really interesting things I didn't know,

930
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 2: include her ex husband was also at the show at

931
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,280
Speaker 2: the same time. They were definitely separated. She had started

932
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 2: flirting with the boss. The guys they knew it was

933
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 2: wrong and they were about to go to the board

934
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 2: about it, but they hadn't done anything yet. But she

935
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 2: was definitely separated, and he knew that she was definitely separated,

936
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:24,839
Speaker 2: and he said that he was separated too, So that

937
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 2: was part of it, right, And then you.

938
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,960
Speaker 4: Told me an absolutely fascinating thing that she says in it.

939
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 4: Let's have a listen.

940
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:36,280
Speaker 7: New York Times wrote that she's been called the quote.

941
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 7: She's been called a slut, a homewrecker, a gold digger,

942
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 7: a side piece. The usual tags for shaming women, is

943
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 7: what Lisa Miller wrote. And you told me that you

944
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 7: believe that women are apt to quote each other alive,

945
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 7: and that most of your criticism has actually come from

946
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 7: other women, that other women are the only one who

947
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 7: dare to come up to your face and say horrible things.

948
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,720
Speaker 6: Right, Yeah, that was to me the most upsetting piece

949
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 6: of all of this was I had no idea how

950
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 6: unwell we as a gender still.

951
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 4: Claire, you wrote a whole book about internet pylons and

952
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 4: cancel culture. Did you were you surprised by that revelation

953
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 4: that most of the online hate came from women's.

954
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 3: No Ah, not at all, because I think that in

955
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 3: some ways we're still prosecuting a lot of I mean,

956
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 3: as you can say from this show, we're still prosecuting

957
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 3: a lot of questions about feminism in real time.

958
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: What was this got to do with feminism?

959
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:43,399
Speaker 3: And because I think that we are women are looking

960
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 3: at each other thinking, are.

961
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 4: You my enemy? You are my enemy?

962
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 3: You are you are the reason that my husband left me, Like,

963
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 3: women are doing that to each other, and it's internalized

964
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 3: misogyny one hundred percent.

965
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 2: So and they don't want to hear that actually that

966
00:48:59,120 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 2: isn't what she was doing.

967
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 3: On Yeah, yeah, because that nuance is quite boring and

968
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 3: also doesn't fit with the fact that on the Internet,

969
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:14,399
Speaker 3: somebody like Kristin Cabot is a two dimensional figure who

970
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 3: represents the homewrecker.

971
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: That's it.

972
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 4: There's nothing more complian, not to drawge too long a

973
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 4: bowl on it. But I think that's also why we

974
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 4: collectively would prefer to believe that Royer stole a harm

975
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 4: from Lindy rather than perhaps a more complicated, nuanced idea.

976
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 1: And my chapel rone is awful.

977
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not saying she is well when people

978
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,800
Speaker 2: are believing that she is, maybe this is very depressing information.

979
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 2: I want to leave you with a little bit of

980
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 2: gossip that I did get from that interview, though, just

981
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,399
Speaker 2: so that we can throw it back on the guy, right, Yeah,

982
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 2: but not that that's healthy, but I'm just here to

983
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 2: do it, just to even it out.

984
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:48,720
Speaker 1: They don't speak.

985
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 2: They haven't spoken since last fall, Kristin and Andy because

986
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 2: she says, and I love the way Americans talk, he

987
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 2: did not meet my standards of honesty and transparency Americans do.

988
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 2: And then Oprah says, are you telling me that he

989
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 2: hadn't really separated from his wife? And she sort of says, well,

990
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that because it's not my story to tell.

991
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 1: But that's totally what she's saying.

992
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:13,720
Speaker 4: It's story.

993
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 2: He was a dirty, rotten cheetah. And he also didn't

994
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 2: come out and defend her, which her ex husband did

995
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 2: when he came out and said we were separated. It's

996
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:25,399
Speaker 2: cool Andy didn't say that, and so she is that

997
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:26,240
Speaker 2: he is the villain.

998
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 4: There's an even better tibit in my view, which is

999
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 4: that you remember that Gwyneth Paltrow did the ad for

1000
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 4: the company after this all came out. That was very

1001
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 4: wink wink, nudge nudge, basically trying to explain to everyone

1002
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 4: what this company did that they both worked at. Apparently,

1003
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:49,439
Speaker 4: Gwyneth reached out to Kristin, which I think is kind

1004
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 4: of nice, because Kristin expressed some real disappointment that she

1005
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:57,600
Speaker 4: was another woman who's founded this company based on women's empowerment.

1006
00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 4: It's kind of tearing her down and making fun of

1007
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 4: her at her lowest moment. So I'm going to reach

1008
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 4: out to her, and Kristin left her unred. Oh my god, Holly,

1009
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 4: I know you would never do that, but I absolutely

1010
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 4: love that.

1011
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 2: The very last thing that's very sad about this is

1012
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 2: that Christen says she can no longer listen to Coldplay,

1013
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,319
Speaker 2: and they were her favorite band and Yellow was her

1014
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 2: favorite song, but because that was playing when this all happened,

1015
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:22,240
Speaker 2: she can no longer listen.

1016
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:26,799
Speaker 4: It was Yellow that was playing. Sad, that's not a

1017
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:27,720
Speaker 4: snogging song.

1018
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 1: That is all we have time for.

1019
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 2: Oh I need to I need to mention one of you.

1020
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 2: I need to mention one of you, Sarah. I'm sure

1021
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:36,720
Speaker 2: we've only got one Sarah who listens to about loud

1022
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 2: all out louders. I'm sure there's only one who. On

1023
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 2: Friday I did ask. I said, hey, out louders, if

1024
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 2: you love us, wherever you're listening to this, why don't

1025
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 2: you jump on and give us a rating?

1026
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: And as far as I know, only said that's not true.

1027
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 1: I'm sure many people did.

1028
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 2: Sarah posted about it and she said, I did what

1029
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 2: Holly asked me to do. So be like Sarah, out louder,

1030
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 2: be Sarah, be a Sarah, and jump on wherever you're

1031
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 2: listening to this if you love the show and give

1032
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 2: us a railing.

1033
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 7: Week was a.

1034
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 2: Gold staro oh yeah, and then we can all have

1035
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 2: a little nap, yeah, and a little treat. Thank you

1036
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 2: to our amazing team for putting this Monday show together.

1037
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 2: Thank you to my wonderful co hosts, and we will

1038
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: see you tomorrow.

1039
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,759
Speaker 3: Momenta acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which

1040
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 3: we have recorded this podcast.