WEBVTT - No, I Won't Be Nude At Your Wedding 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mama mar acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:23.567 that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 0:00:23.647 --> 0:00:26.287 Mama Mea Out Loud and to our Friday show where 0:00:26.327 --> 0:00:29.527 we take a big break from the news cycle today friends, 0:00:29.567 --> 0:00:33.047 It's Friday, the fourteenth of June, and I'm Hollywaynwright. And 0:00:33.127 --> 0:00:35.287 if you missed Monday's app this week because it was 0:00:35.327 --> 0:00:38.887 a public holiday, we released a subscriber episode for all 0:00:38.927 --> 0:00:42.127 of our listeners about intuition. How do you know when 0:00:42.167 --> 0:00:43.047 you can trust your gut? 0:00:43.287 --> 0:00:46.967 I'm mea Friedman And on Wednesday this week we had 0:00:47.047 --> 0:00:48.007 one of the great shows. 0:00:48.047 --> 0:00:48.887 I really enjoyed it. 0:00:48.927 --> 0:00:51.847 We talked about the return of the lad mag We 0:00:51.927 --> 0:00:54.207 had to explain to m the difference between a. 0:00:54.127 --> 0:00:56.887 Coffee time a bit of an e grageration, and. 0:00:56.807 --> 0:01:02.847 We also unpacked gray rock theory, which sounds like not biology. 0:01:02.887 --> 0:01:05.727 What's the one with minerals geology? Geology? No, No, it 0:01:05.767 --> 0:01:08.487 wasn't that ology. It's actually I like to call it 0:01:08.527 --> 0:01:10.687 the gray rock technic, which I have been adopting every 0:01:10.767 --> 0:01:13.927 day since because it can really help you in conversations, 0:01:14.047 --> 0:01:17.047 especially if you have to do with psychopaths, narcissus, or 0:01:17.047 --> 0:01:18.247 people who are very shouty. 0:01:18.287 --> 0:01:20.447 Why are looking at me when you're saying psychopaths. 0:01:19.967 --> 0:01:22.887 Because I'm actually thinking all of those things to describe me. 0:01:23.927 --> 0:01:26.367 So I'm projecting to listen to any of those episodes 0:01:26.367 --> 0:01:27.887 about any of those things as a link in our 0:01:27.927 --> 0:01:29.167 show notes. 0:01:28.927 --> 0:01:31.247 And I'm m Vernon. I'm filling in for Jesse again. 0:01:31.607 --> 0:01:33.887 I'm also on our daily entertainment podcast A. 0:01:33.887 --> 0:01:38.847 Spill on today's show why are People So Furious with 0:01:39.007 --> 0:01:45.167 One handsome, cheating Christian Husband? And our recommendations, which include 0:01:45.207 --> 0:01:48.687 a now iconic Ossie comedy, A Single Woman's Fury and 0:01:48.727 --> 0:01:51.687 me as New Obsession, and our best and worsts, which 0:01:51.727 --> 0:01:55.687 include side Friends, contagious Bleeding and influencer A I mean 0:01:55.887 --> 0:01:58.687 influenza A influence. 0:01:59.887 --> 0:02:02.847 Yeah, I mean I'm the influencer A influencer. 0:02:03.087 --> 0:02:05.687 But first, M Vernon and Katie missed it. 0:02:06.207 --> 0:02:08.967 A groom is fighting with her sister because she doesn't 0:02:08.967 --> 0:02:13.807 want to attend his wedding in the nude? What so 0:02:13.967 --> 0:02:17.047 A Reddit uses post went viral after the sister of 0:02:17.087 --> 0:02:19.727 the groom to be bad or in what I would 0:02:19.727 --> 0:02:22.167 describe as an exposed family. 0:02:21.887 --> 0:02:24.567 Matter, oh, I see what you did there? 0:02:24.567 --> 0:02:26.087 Do you see that I was expressing a laugh and 0:02:26.127 --> 0:02:26.527 I got a. 0:02:27.287 --> 0:02:28.967 I hate I know you do. 0:02:30.847 --> 0:02:34.087 So, she wrote, whatever consenting adults do in their private 0:02:34.127 --> 0:02:37.087 lives is none of my concern, and that extends to 0:02:37.127 --> 0:02:41.047 my brother and his fiancee being naturists. However, I do 0:02:41.087 --> 0:02:43.527 take an issue with them being angry that I won't 0:02:43.567 --> 0:02:47.127 attend their wedding. So she went on to say that 0:02:47.367 --> 0:02:50.567 the wedding and reception is taking place at a naturist resort. 0:02:50.687 --> 0:02:53.807 So nature ists are nudists, right, Yes, people who like 0:02:53.887 --> 0:02:56.327 to be naked. Yes, And they met at a naked resort. 0:02:56.367 --> 0:02:58.647 They met at a naked resort, so there's some significance 0:02:58.647 --> 0:03:01.527 of having the wedding at the resort. His sister tried 0:03:01.647 --> 0:03:04.127 so much. She was like, she asked them, can I 0:03:04.167 --> 0:03:06.367 wear normal wedding clothes? And they were like, no, like 0:03:06.407 --> 0:03:08.087 the rest of the resort, you have to be nudes. 0:03:08.167 --> 0:03:08.367 Off. 0:03:08.607 --> 0:03:11.847 She even said I will pray for another reception, which 0:03:11.967 --> 0:03:14.967 just made them more angry. She said, I'm not comfortable 0:03:15.007 --> 0:03:17.247 being nude in front of a large crowd of strangers. 0:03:17.287 --> 0:03:20.047 I am definitely not comfortable walking up the aisle arm 0:03:20.087 --> 0:03:22.967 in arm with the groomsmen I've never met, and we're 0:03:23.007 --> 0:03:26.607 both nude or standing in front of everyone during the ceremony, 0:03:26.727 --> 0:03:31.007 or being in all the photographs. I am not saying 0:03:31.007 --> 0:03:35.407 they should in a nature's resort. I'm just uncomfortable with 0:03:35.487 --> 0:03:38.047 attending the wedding if I'm required to be nude for it. 0:03:38.447 --> 0:03:41.127 Look, I think that's fair enough. 0:03:41.367 --> 0:03:42.887 She tried, She gave an option. 0:03:43.007 --> 0:03:46.647 It's a destination wedding, but a dress code that. 0:03:46.687 --> 0:03:49.127 Nobody destination that we don't want to go to. 0:03:49.327 --> 0:03:51.567 I feel like this is a bridge too far. I 0:03:51.607 --> 0:03:55.447 think that guests need to consent, and I guess not 0:03:55.567 --> 0:03:57.887 consenting they should respect that. 0:03:58.367 --> 0:04:01.967 Can you imagine being at a nerdest wedding? Can you imagine? 0:04:02.167 --> 0:04:04.127 Because you know how one of the things about weddings 0:04:04.207 --> 0:04:10.007 is it brings everybody together, old young, add to half 0:04:10.047 --> 0:04:12.447 of them, and then we're all naked and we're all 0:04:12.487 --> 0:04:14.927 looking at each other. And you know that the bride, 0:04:15.007 --> 0:04:17.527 because she's the bride, is going to somehow be the 0:04:17.567 --> 0:04:19.287 hottest nude person and she'll have a. 0:04:19.287 --> 0:04:21.487 Veil as well on her pubes. 0:04:21.567 --> 0:04:23.927 And she that's why she put the bouquet. 0:04:23.967 --> 0:04:26.327 She'd put a pube veil. Oh No, she's got a 0:04:26.367 --> 0:04:29.887 veil on her head in the bouquet, just tucked into 0:04:29.887 --> 0:04:30.527 her pubes. 0:04:30.967 --> 0:04:37.287 My friend's brother had a medieval themed wedding, like one. 0:04:37.127 --> 0:04:40.407 Of those pointy hats with some veil of it and 0:04:40.407 --> 0:04:43.167 then they duel, they duel half it's like mead and 0:04:43.247 --> 0:04:44.047 pigs and stuff. 0:04:44.047 --> 0:04:46.167 And she was just like, I was like, I wouldn't 0:04:46.167 --> 0:04:49.807 be going to fine though this. No, No, No, actually. 0:04:49.527 --> 0:04:51.607 Know someone I just remembered I know someone who had 0:04:51.607 --> 0:04:54.287 a nude wedding. No, I didn't go, obviously, it was 0:04:54.287 --> 0:04:57.487 before I knew him, and it was a really really 0:04:57.487 --> 0:04:59.127 long time ago, and it was kind of when he 0:04:59.207 --> 0:05:01.407 was going through a bit of a hippie phase. But 0:05:01.527 --> 0:05:03.967 I don't know if everybody had to be nude. I 0:05:03.967 --> 0:05:05.767 think the celebrant was nude. I don't know if the 0:05:05.847 --> 0:05:09.007 guests had to be nude, though, but he and his 0:05:09.327 --> 0:05:12.687 wife were nude, and I think the celebrant was nude. 0:05:12.687 --> 0:05:14.887 And were they also in a pool or Am I 0:05:14.887 --> 0:05:16.527 getting that confused with home births? 0:05:18.167 --> 0:05:20.927 If you had to go to a nude wedding, would 0:05:20.927 --> 0:05:21.367 you shave? 0:05:25.127 --> 0:05:27.087 There is no world in which I have to go 0:05:27.127 --> 0:05:29.367 to a new wedding, But you know what I was 0:05:29.367 --> 0:05:31.167 thinking about. One of the reasons why this story is 0:05:31.207 --> 0:05:34.407 so good is that because for nudists, they don't see 0:05:34.447 --> 0:05:37.607 being nude is anything sexual, anything strange. They're like, this 0:05:37.647 --> 0:05:40.047 is very natural. But the whole point of a wedding 0:05:40.047 --> 0:05:42.487 is there's all kinds of different people there. Even though 0:05:42.527 --> 0:05:46.287 the nudists might be super chill, they would definitely be 0:05:46.447 --> 0:05:50.007 like creepy Uncle Frank and like oh no, no, no, 0:05:50.007 --> 0:05:50.607 no no. 0:05:50.407 --> 0:05:53.407 No, signing up fresh and madisone and like literally saying 0:05:53.447 --> 0:05:55.207 I want to have an affair. When I got to 0:05:55.247 --> 0:05:57.047 that point, it's like, what the heck, how did I 0:05:57.087 --> 0:05:59.527 get here? Like several years ago, I would have never 0:05:59.767 --> 0:06:01.687 just blatantly chosen to have an affair. 0:06:02.047 --> 0:06:04.687 One couple that definitely did not have a nude wedding 0:06:05.087 --> 0:06:08.927 is Nia and Sam Raider. Now those names might not 0:06:08.967 --> 0:06:12.087 be imediately familiar to you, but this week on No Filter, 0:06:12.647 --> 0:06:16.087 I interviewed this couple who are a deeply religious Christian 0:06:16.127 --> 0:06:21.847 couple who are also vloggers. So that's video blogger. I 0:06:21.927 --> 0:06:22.647 sound like I'm. 0:06:22.487 --> 0:06:24.327 Trying back the lady. They were bloggers. 0:06:24.567 --> 0:06:27.247 It was like before influencers, there were people who would 0:06:27.247 --> 0:06:28.207 just show you around their family. 0:06:28.247 --> 0:06:30.167 It was big twenty eleven, twenty. 0:06:30.007 --> 0:06:33.167 Fourteen, exactly when it was like, come inside our family. 0:06:33.607 --> 0:06:36.967 And so Sam and Nia were these online influencers and 0:06:37.007 --> 0:06:40.447 they had this quite successful YouTube channel and too long, 0:06:40.487 --> 0:06:43.887 don't read. He cheated on her. He joined Ashley Madison, 0:06:43.967 --> 0:06:46.407 the website for cheaters, and then when there was a 0:06:46.407 --> 0:06:48.527 big data league, the world found out and it was 0:06:48.567 --> 0:06:51.687 a big scandal. Now the way that they became famous 0:06:51.687 --> 0:06:54.087 that some people might remember again, this was a real 0:06:54.327 --> 0:06:56.567 twenty eleven thing. I remember it because I'm sure we 0:06:56.607 --> 0:06:59.287 did a story about it on Mama Maya. When you're 0:06:59.327 --> 0:07:01.847 a family vlogger, you have to kind of think of 0:07:01.887 --> 0:07:03.887 different stunts that could get people to your channel. And 0:07:03.927 --> 0:07:05.687 so she was pregnant with I think their second or 0:07:05.687 --> 0:07:08.007 third child, and he had this idea, because he was 0:07:08.007 --> 0:07:11.007 a nurse, that he would bring a pregnancy test time 0:07:11.007 --> 0:07:12.967 from the hospital and he would test her urine in 0:07:12.967 --> 0:07:16.327 the toilet. I remember, Yeah, he could break the pregnancy 0:07:16.367 --> 0:07:17.847 news to her before she knew. 0:07:18.287 --> 0:07:21.807 So here I am, and I'm so excited. I have 0:07:22.127 --> 0:07:24.247 a specimen. I don't know if it'll throw it off 0:07:24.287 --> 0:07:27.927 because it's all diluted. But I also brought almost pregnancy test, 0:07:28.287 --> 0:07:31.287 and this time around, I'm going to be doing the announcement. 0:07:31.607 --> 0:07:33.247 At least I hoped. I hoped so. 0:07:33.367 --> 0:07:35.727 Bad she's pregnant, which, when you think about it, is 0:07:35.727 --> 0:07:37.567 a great sort of story. It's a great piece of 0:07:37.567 --> 0:07:40.087 content if you want to look at it objectively. And 0:07:40.127 --> 0:07:42.447 it did. It went viral. They made this video, went viral. 0:07:42.487 --> 0:07:43.927 They did all these interviews, so that's kind of how 0:07:43.927 --> 0:07:48.087 they became quite famous. And then the Ashley Madison thing happened. 0:07:48.127 --> 0:07:49.887 And the reason that they're in the news again is 0:07:49.927 --> 0:07:52.247 because of this documentary that came out that we spoke 0:07:52.247 --> 0:07:54.847 about on the show. There was sort of two couples 0:07:54.887 --> 0:07:58.247 that were interviewed for that or one woman whose husband 0:07:58.367 --> 0:08:01.687 took his life after his name was leaked, and then 0:08:01.767 --> 0:08:05.847 Sam and Nia who got through it. They nearly split up, 0:08:05.887 --> 0:08:07.847 but they didn't. They got through it. I think they've 0:08:07.927 --> 0:08:11.087 since had another child. It's now ten years ago and 0:08:11.487 --> 0:08:13.807 I reached out to them for a no filter interview. 0:08:13.847 --> 0:08:15.927 They said yes, because they've written a book. They sat 0:08:15.967 --> 0:08:18.727 down in their bedroom a couple of weeks ago to 0:08:18.807 --> 0:08:22.687 do this interview with me. It was very intimate because 0:08:22.727 --> 0:08:24.967 literally their bed was in the background and I'm talking 0:08:24.967 --> 0:08:27.447 to these two strangers about their sex life and his 0:08:27.527 --> 0:08:30.087 affairs and all the different ways in which he cheated. 0:08:31.087 --> 0:08:33.607 The reaction to this has been really interesting in that 0:08:33.767 --> 0:08:36.767 people are absolutely furious with him. Like the comments on 0:08:36.807 --> 0:08:39.847 the social media post just around my no Filter interview, 0:08:40.607 --> 0:08:41.047 Oh my. 0:08:41.007 --> 0:08:43.887 God, they hate Nobody buys it, do they? So the 0:08:44.007 --> 0:08:47.327 comments that I saw are a mixture of wants to cheat, 0:08:47.367 --> 0:08:52.807 always a cheat, to he's a narcissist, douchebag, just absolutely 0:08:53.007 --> 0:08:57.247 uniformly negative about him. One of the things I find 0:08:57.247 --> 0:09:00.487 interesting about that is that this did happen ten years ago, right, 0:09:00.527 --> 0:09:02.847 So what we're actually if you strip away all the 0:09:02.927 --> 0:09:06.127 kind of Ashley Madison of it all, what we're actually 0:09:06.167 --> 0:09:08.167 looking at is a couple telling us how they got. 0:09:08.047 --> 0:09:10.887 Through infidelity for dalla, which is something that Esther Perell, 0:09:11.287 --> 0:09:13.927 author of Mating in Captivity, talks about a lot. She says, 0:09:13.967 --> 0:09:16.207 it doesn't have to be a deal breaker. In some relationships, 0:09:16.247 --> 0:09:19.087 it is, but they're an example of a couple in 0:09:19.127 --> 0:09:22.167 which it wasn't. But what I'm interested to understand, I 0:09:22.207 --> 0:09:24.607 know you've both listened to the interview. Why is a 0:09:24.687 --> 0:09:27.247 friend so angry at him because he's a guy who said, 0:09:27.287 --> 0:09:28.607 I'm sorry, I won't do it again. 0:09:29.087 --> 0:09:33.287 Em For me personally, I find as someone who's been 0:09:33.367 --> 0:09:36.247 single majority of her twenties, as well as someone who's 0:09:36.287 --> 0:09:39.807 non exclusively dated multiple people at the same time, I 0:09:39.887 --> 0:09:43.607 find the idea of cheating so fascinating because I can't 0:09:43.767 --> 0:09:46.527 grasp what people get out of cheating that they don't 0:09:46.527 --> 0:09:47.807 get from their relationship. 0:09:47.887 --> 0:09:50.207 But did you listen to what Sam said? He basically 0:09:50.247 --> 0:09:52.167 said they wanted to lose their virginity to each other. 0:09:52.207 --> 0:09:53.567 She was fifteen when they met. I think he was 0:09:53.607 --> 0:09:56.767 eighteen or nineteen. They fell hard and fast in love, 0:09:56.887 --> 0:09:59.207 but they were very torn and they ended up having sex, 0:09:59.247 --> 0:10:01.127 but then they felt terrible about it because they wanted 0:10:01.167 --> 0:10:03.327 to save sex until marriage. So then they got married, 0:10:04.007 --> 0:10:07.447 and on paper they hadn't slept with or done anything 0:10:07.447 --> 0:10:09.487 with anyone. And he was basically saying. 0:10:09.327 --> 0:10:11.407 You know, like in the documentary movies, I was so 0:10:11.487 --> 0:10:15.047 fascinated by romance and that aspect of my marriage that 0:10:15.207 --> 0:10:18.527 a novelty wore off and that was a bummer for me. 0:10:18.567 --> 0:10:21.847 So I wanted to keep seeking that attention in that romance. 0:10:21.527 --> 0:10:25.327 Even like we're dating. That's why so many men in 0:10:25.367 --> 0:10:29.287 my experience, stay single because they get like these little 0:10:29.327 --> 0:10:33.007 glimpses of attention that women who are single get constantly, 0:10:33.527 --> 0:10:35.167 where it becomes like then a bit boring. 0:10:35.367 --> 0:10:36.607 Single women get a lot of attention. 0:10:36.687 --> 0:10:38.567 I think it's much easier for single women to have 0:10:38.647 --> 0:10:41.167 like casual sex than it is for men to have casualty. 0:10:41.447 --> 0:10:43.487 Why do you think that, Well, yes, it is because 0:10:43.527 --> 0:10:45.727 you can choose to because there are men will do it. 0:10:45.847 --> 0:10:46.527 Yeah, what you mean? 0:10:46.567 --> 0:10:46.887 Okay? 0:10:46.927 --> 0:10:49.007 And for me, it was just really interesting because I 0:10:49.047 --> 0:10:52.407 think even if he was single before that, it would 0:10:52.407 --> 0:10:54.967 have been hard for him to have like sexual relationships 0:10:55.047 --> 0:10:57.367 before his wife. And then the minute he would have 0:10:57.407 --> 0:11:00.327 gone attention from someone else who wasn't his wife, he's like, 0:11:00.367 --> 0:11:02.007 I've never done this before, so let's try. 0:11:02.087 --> 0:11:03.687 What did you think about him? Were you one of 0:11:03.727 --> 0:11:04.487 the angry people? 0:11:04.807 --> 0:11:06.767 I feel really bad saying this, but I was more 0:11:06.967 --> 0:11:10.687 just upset with her being in that interview and watching 0:11:10.807 --> 0:11:13.487 him talk about it. It almost felt like she was 0:11:13.607 --> 0:11:16.847 endorsing a behavior that I have grown up learning that 0:11:16.887 --> 0:11:19.167 you should never endorse from a man and never accept. 0:11:19.207 --> 0:11:22.727 But why was she endorsing it? Because like she wasn't like, yeah, 0:11:22.767 --> 0:11:25.767 it was fine and She wasn't like, yeah, he might 0:11:25.807 --> 0:11:28.407 do it again, I'm just a door mat like. She 0:11:28.567 --> 0:11:30.607 was very honest about the fact that they went to 0:11:30.687 --> 0:11:33.367 the brink and that she really did think about divorce 0:11:33.647 --> 0:11:34.647 in the beginning. 0:11:34.287 --> 0:11:36.367 The early days. It was convinced like we were getting 0:11:36.407 --> 0:11:38.247 a divorce. There was no other way around it. 0:11:38.447 --> 0:11:39.767 Why people angry. 0:11:39.967 --> 0:11:42.367 One of my theories about this is that cheating is 0:11:42.407 --> 0:11:44.487 one of those things that we all accept happens, but 0:11:44.527 --> 0:11:46.647 you're never supposed to admit that it happens, do you 0:11:46.727 --> 0:11:49.247 know what I mean. It's like people are more comfortable 0:11:49.287 --> 0:11:52.367 with the idea that in long term relationships people are 0:11:52.407 --> 0:11:54.647 cheating if we don't talk about it. But if you 0:11:54.727 --> 0:11:57.127 talk about it and you say I did, or I 0:11:57.167 --> 0:12:00.567 wanted to, or you know, I've thought about it or 0:12:00.887 --> 0:12:02.687 cheated or he did and we got through it, people 0:12:02.767 --> 0:12:07.967 are outraged. And it's really hypocritical of us because we 0:12:08.007 --> 0:12:11.127 talk all the time about how long term relationships are 0:12:11.167 --> 0:12:14.847 hard work. If your aspiration is to be with one 0:12:14.927 --> 0:12:17.127 person for a very large chunk of your life, and 0:12:17.167 --> 0:12:21.087 these two being conservative Christians, that's part of their life 0:12:21.087 --> 0:12:23.887 started in their teens and presumably supposed to end when 0:12:23.887 --> 0:12:27.327 one of them dies. Doing that is very hard, and 0:12:27.367 --> 0:12:30.167 anyone who tells you that it isn't is lying, But 0:12:30.207 --> 0:12:33.167 you have to pretend that it's easy. We only really 0:12:33.207 --> 0:12:37.887 want to see and celebrate marriages that are our romantic 0:12:37.967 --> 0:12:40.607 ideal of what all marriages are. Even though when I 0:12:40.687 --> 0:12:43.447 listened to it, I had all kinds of issues with them, 0:12:43.487 --> 0:12:47.367 but that was mostly to do with their solutions to it. 0:12:47.527 --> 0:12:51.727 I've found very confusing speak about that. So it's interesting 0:12:51.767 --> 0:12:53.967 context when you realize how long ago this happened, because 0:12:54.007 --> 0:12:55.447 I think all the people who going, well, he's just 0:12:55.447 --> 0:12:56.967 going to cheat again and he's lying and all that, 0:12:57.007 --> 0:12:59.647 they're not giving her any credit. It's like ten years, right, 0:12:59.727 --> 0:13:01.767 They've been through a lot. She says that they were 0:13:01.767 --> 0:13:05.287 in therapy twice a week for a long time, then 0:13:05.327 --> 0:13:08.167 every week, then every month. They've worked it out. But 0:13:08.927 --> 0:13:10.567 they'd admit, and I know a lot of this is 0:13:10.607 --> 0:13:13.407 tied up in their religion, that the solution was also 0:13:13.447 --> 0:13:16.367 to basically put him on a lead, like that's basically 0:13:16.367 --> 0:13:18.287 what they've done, and I know other couples have done this. 0:13:18.367 --> 0:13:20.887 So there are rules around who he's allowed to socialize with. 0:13:21.007 --> 0:13:23.287 He's not allowed to have any relationships with women. He 0:13:23.327 --> 0:13:24.967 can't be alone with women, he can't talk to women 0:13:24.967 --> 0:13:27.607 on his phone. He can't go out with men who 0:13:27.607 --> 0:13:30.927 she doesn't sanction or approve of, who aren't good Christian people. 0:13:31.327 --> 0:13:33.487 There are rules about where he's allowed to go, how 0:13:33.527 --> 0:13:35.767 long he's allowed to be out for. And I know 0:13:35.847 --> 0:13:40.967 that this is my straining against my libertarian I find 0:13:41.087 --> 0:13:44.127 that I'm like, that is a fake situation. 0:13:44.527 --> 0:13:44.767 You know. 0:13:44.847 --> 0:13:47.887 It's like if you teach a cat it doesn't live outside, 0:13:47.927 --> 0:13:50.447 it lives in a flat. It will play along with 0:13:50.487 --> 0:13:52.487 it to a point, but the cat wants to go 0:13:52.527 --> 0:13:53.407 out and catch a mouse. 0:13:53.607 --> 0:13:54.247 Do you know what I mean? 0:13:54.287 --> 0:13:56.967 And I don't mean by that comparison that he wants 0:13:56.967 --> 0:13:58.327 to go out and cheat. But what I mean is 0:13:58.727 --> 0:14:03.247 by creating this safe world, it's not the real world. 0:14:03.607 --> 0:14:06.127 If she can't trust him, or he can't trust himself 0:14:06.447 --> 0:14:08.847 to be in the presence of a female who isn't 0:14:08.887 --> 0:14:10.447 his wife, for his mother, or his sister or his 0:14:10.527 --> 0:14:13.847 daughter without wanting to cheat, then he's still a cheat. 0:14:14.007 --> 0:14:14.727 Do you know what I mean? 0:14:14.847 --> 0:14:15.207 I do? 0:14:15.327 --> 0:14:18.207 I was listening to a podcast with Glennon Doyle and 0:14:18.247 --> 0:14:21.287 her wife Abbi wom Back, and they were talking about jealousy, 0:14:22.007 --> 0:14:26.167 and they'd both been cheated on a lot in their relationships. 0:14:26.167 --> 0:14:28.687 Particularly Glennon, I think, said that every person she'd ever 0:14:28.767 --> 0:14:32.167 been with, including her husband, had cheated on her, so 0:14:32.167 --> 0:14:34.767 she had a lot of trust issues. She said, in 0:14:34.807 --> 0:14:38.887 the beginning of their relationship, she was incredibly jealous. And 0:14:39.847 --> 0:14:42.207 you know, there was one time that they both recalled 0:14:42.247 --> 0:14:44.207 that Abby came out of the shower and Glennon was 0:14:44.287 --> 0:14:46.847 checking her phone, even though she had no reason to 0:14:46.887 --> 0:14:50.527 believe that Abby was cheating on her. And Abby's version 0:14:50.567 --> 0:14:53.687 of events was really interesting because the way she reacted 0:14:53.807 --> 0:14:56.287 was not what are you doing? Don't you trust me? 0:14:57.527 --> 0:15:00.527 She said, She actually said to her straight away, Oh honey, 0:15:00.527 --> 0:15:01.327 what else do you need? 0:15:01.367 --> 0:15:03.007 Do you want my email password? 0:15:03.287 --> 0:15:04.207 What else do you need? 0:15:04.687 --> 0:15:07.847 I understand that for some people that's an invasion of privacy. 0:15:08.007 --> 0:15:11.927 I totally get it. But based on your wounds, based 0:15:12.007 --> 0:15:16.047 on me knowing your wounds, based on my wounds, that 0:15:16.087 --> 0:15:17.887 felt like such an easy thing to do. 0:15:18.247 --> 0:15:22.007 And I thought that is so interesting that idea of 0:15:22.647 --> 0:15:24.087 And again I don't know is Sam and NEI or 0:15:24.127 --> 0:15:27.087 what the situation is, whether all of those rules are 0:15:27.127 --> 0:15:29.047 because he needs to be kept on a tight lead, 0:15:29.207 --> 0:15:30.927 and he agrees that he needs to be kept on 0:15:30.927 --> 0:15:32.687 a tight lead because he does want to go out 0:15:32.727 --> 0:15:36.047 and catch a mouse, or whether that's just what she 0:15:36.287 --> 0:15:38.567 needs to be able to trust him again, because part 0:15:38.567 --> 0:15:40.127 of it was not just I mean, he didn't actually 0:15:40.207 --> 0:15:42.687 cheat via Ashley Madison because they were all bots, but 0:15:43.407 --> 0:15:45.927 he deceived her over a really long period of time, 0:15:46.047 --> 0:15:52.527 including messaging and propositioning her closest friend, different women, sex workers, 0:15:53.247 --> 0:15:55.447 and there were many times where she thought something was 0:15:55.527 --> 0:15:58.647 up and he reassured her that there wasn't. And so 0:15:59.127 --> 0:16:02.247 the way I read it was that she needs all 0:16:02.287 --> 0:16:05.527 of those things so that she can build her trust back. 0:16:05.607 --> 0:16:07.127 Is that different or not different? 0:16:07.447 --> 0:16:10.247 I couldn't live like that. I think that one the reasons. 0:16:09.887 --> 0:16:12.287 Which person you couldn't be either of those people. 0:16:12.447 --> 0:16:16.087 I couldn't be somebody's jailer, and I couldn't be jailed 0:16:16.207 --> 0:16:18.487 like I think. Hearing her talk about all that that 0:16:18.527 --> 0:16:21.927 was most heartbreaking to me because I'm not particularly black 0:16:21.967 --> 0:16:24.247 and white about cheating. I'm not talking about my relationship 0:16:24.327 --> 0:16:27.367 whatever here. I mean broadly my value system. Cheating with 0:16:27.407 --> 0:16:29.247 somebody else does not have to be a deal breaker. 0:16:29.607 --> 0:16:33.207 Betraying you is a different thing right, and that is 0:16:33.447 --> 0:16:36.927 lying to you, making you feel crazy, trying to chat 0:16:37.007 --> 0:16:39.447 up your friends. That is betrayed. 0:16:39.527 --> 0:16:40.047 That's different. 0:16:40.247 --> 0:16:42.447 And I think that's different if it's purely getting a 0:16:42.487 --> 0:16:44.927 sexual need met. You know, you can talk about that, 0:16:45.447 --> 0:16:49.087 but literally making a joke of what you think you have, 0:16:49.567 --> 0:16:51.487 that is a very difficult thing to forgive. So she's 0:16:51.567 --> 0:16:54.887 actually amazing that she's managed to do that. But if 0:16:54.927 --> 0:16:57.287 in managing to do that, you have to create this 0:16:57.407 --> 0:16:59.527 sort of I was thinking about it a lot because 0:16:59.567 --> 0:17:01.127 I was thinking I wouldn't say that, would I if 0:17:01.127 --> 0:17:04.167 someone was an alcoholic and then they had to You know, 0:17:04.287 --> 0:17:05.967 a lot of sober people have to live with very 0:17:05.967 --> 0:17:08.247 strict boundaries around where they can be, who they can 0:17:08.287 --> 0:17:10.527 socialize with, whether they can be in a venue that 0:17:10.567 --> 0:17:12.967 has alcohol, like, and I guess there's a comparison there 0:17:13.087 --> 0:17:16.207 for like, And I wouldn't pooh pooh that idea. But 0:17:16.287 --> 0:17:19.127 I just can't get around the idea that if the 0:17:19.167 --> 0:17:21.327 only thing that's keeping the dog on the porch just 0:17:21.367 --> 0:17:24.407 He'll remember Hillary Clinton famously said about Bill Clinton, He's 0:17:24.407 --> 0:17:27.127 a hard dog to keep on the porch. Ultimately, I 0:17:27.167 --> 0:17:28.847 think you've got to be true about who you are, 0:17:29.127 --> 0:17:33.607 and some people are more driven by sex, desire, flirtation, 0:17:34.367 --> 0:17:37.687 all of those dopamine hits that you get, which Sam says, yeah, 0:17:37.687 --> 0:17:39.647 he said, And I think in a way, if you 0:17:39.807 --> 0:17:43.607 know that about yourself, you're living a lie to pretend 0:17:43.647 --> 0:17:44.447 that's not who you are. 0:17:44.687 --> 0:17:46.367 When I need to view the psychopath a couple of 0:17:46.447 --> 0:17:49.207 weeks ago on No Filter in and I asked her 0:17:49.767 --> 0:17:51.807 because she doesn't have remorse or anything like that, and 0:17:51.887 --> 0:17:54.887 she doesn't know kind of moral feelings about cheating. So 0:17:54.927 --> 0:17:56.527 I said, well, then how come you don't cheat on 0:17:56.967 --> 0:18:00.207 your husband? And she was very pragmatic. She said, because 0:18:00.247 --> 0:18:02.687 I really like being married. Yeah, I like living in 0:18:02.727 --> 0:18:05.687 this house. I like not sharing custody of my kids. 0:18:05.807 --> 0:18:06.247 I respect. 0:18:06.367 --> 0:18:06.927 It's respect. 0:18:07.007 --> 0:18:11.807 Yeah, And why that's not a good enough reason for 0:18:11.967 --> 0:18:15.287 him to not cheat. Why does he have to not 0:18:15.447 --> 0:18:16.407 have the impulse. 0:18:16.927 --> 0:18:19.647 What really weirded me out about this interview is finding 0:18:19.647 --> 0:18:22.967 out that they were big family vloggers like in the past, 0:18:23.047 --> 0:18:24.807 because if you were on YouTube, which it was my 0:18:24.967 --> 0:18:28.487 generation on YouTube those days, it was such a competitive 0:18:28.527 --> 0:18:30.407 place to be if you were a family blogger, like, 0:18:30.447 --> 0:18:33.647 you're competing with all these massive families and surprisingly all 0:18:33.647 --> 0:18:35.927