WEBVTT - How Was This Ever Broadcast On TV? 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.342 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:22.541 that this podcast is recorded on Hello, and welcome to 0:00:22.622 --> 0:00:25.102 Mamma Mia out Loud. What women are actually talking about 0:00:25.102 --> 0:00:28.142 on Wednesday, the twentieth of August. My name is Hollywayne Wright. 0:00:28.302 --> 0:00:30.902 I'm Jesse Stevens and I'm Stacy Higgs. 0:00:30.982 --> 0:00:32.142 Welcome to out Loud. 0:00:32.302 --> 0:00:33.422 Stacey so much. 0:00:33.662 --> 0:00:35.101 It's very exciting to have you here. 0:00:35.222 --> 0:00:37.861 I'm come dressed as a taller version of Jesse Stevens. 0:00:37.942 --> 0:00:39.342 You are in the same shirt. 0:00:39.542 --> 0:00:41.821 Tell the people who you are in case they don't know. 0:00:41.942 --> 0:00:44.182 So I am MoMA me as deputy editor. And you 0:00:44.262 --> 0:00:47.062 might have heard me on Parenting out Loud and you 0:00:47.102 --> 0:00:48.862 will hear more about that next week. 0:00:49.222 --> 0:00:52.302 And we should say, yes, Stacey and I are wearing 0:00:52.302 --> 0:00:53.101 the same shirt. 0:00:53.182 --> 0:00:55.262 Okay, isn't this shirt viral or something? 0:00:55.342 --> 0:00:55.662 Yes? 0:00:55.822 --> 0:00:58.582 Yes, I have it in three colors, and I forget 0:00:58.622 --> 0:01:00.942 what I wore before. I have it shirt in two. 0:01:01.182 --> 0:01:02.982 I really like it. Shit, I need to get it, 0:01:03.022 --> 0:01:04.702 But then I'm just like then we could all be 0:01:04.742 --> 0:01:05.182 wearing it. 0:01:05.581 --> 0:01:07.181 The thing about this shirt is every time we wear 0:01:07.182 --> 0:01:08.782 it to work, we run into three other people who 0:01:08.862 --> 0:01:11.262 have it the Abasa recently for something and they stopped me. 0:01:11.262 --> 0:01:12.782 They said, you've got the viral shirt and I was like, 0:01:12.822 --> 0:01:15.102 that's something no one's ever said to me. This shirt. 0:01:15.222 --> 0:01:16.502 It has sleeves and stripes. 0:01:16.622 --> 0:01:19.822 I cannot express how there is nothing interesting or exceptional 0:01:19.822 --> 0:01:22.502 about this shirt, but the hold it has on the 0:01:22.542 --> 0:01:24.182 culture needs to be acknowledged. 0:01:24.262 --> 0:01:26.742 Is Lioness Yep, it's sixty bucks. 0:01:26.822 --> 0:01:28.262 Yep, it's forty bucks. 0:01:28.062 --> 0:01:30.902 At the moment, Geez, I need to call mea Friedman, 0:01:31.022 --> 0:01:33.502 our friend and find out how many of those she owns. 0:01:33.302 --> 0:01:36.182 Because it's just something that she likes. It's a viral 0:01:36.342 --> 0:01:38.502 item of clothing. It's weird that Jesse and I are 0:01:38.582 --> 0:01:41.462 early adopters. That never happens in my experience. Don't know 0:01:41.502 --> 0:01:42.062 how that happened. 0:01:42.142 --> 0:01:44.942 But here we are. Okay, back to business. Things that 0:01:45.022 --> 0:01:47.301 made our agenda today, Stacey. 0:01:47.142 --> 0:01:49.982 There's a new Netflix documentary that will make you rethink 0:01:50.062 --> 0:01:52.582 one of the biggest reality shows that we all watched. 0:01:52.902 --> 0:01:56.262 There's also a very important roundtable taking place in Canberra 0:01:56.342 --> 0:01:58.222 and we are going to elbow our way in and 0:01:58.302 --> 0:01:59.742 offer some suggestions, very. 0:01:59.622 --> 0:02:05.622 Helpful suggestion and how kitchen cabinets brought one of the 0:02:05.662 --> 0:02:09.662 biggest self help gurus in the world to her knees. Yes, 0:02:09.862 --> 0:02:13.582 we're talking about Meil Robbins. But first, what if you 0:02:13.662 --> 0:02:16.542 didn't have to vote? What if you didn't have to 0:02:16.621 --> 0:02:20.782 bother your pretty little head about complicated issues like human rights, 0:02:21.022 --> 0:02:26.462 environmental issues, defense, education, and health spending. Well, there's someone 0:02:26.502 --> 0:02:29.022 pretty high up in the Trump administration who's got some 0:02:29.102 --> 0:02:29.902 good news for you. 0:02:29.982 --> 0:02:32.422 He's pat new on your little head. He's saying, don't 0:02:32.422 --> 0:02:34.382 you worry, a little lady, don't you worry. 0:02:34.782 --> 0:02:36.422 Don't have to think about this stuff. 0:02:37.102 --> 0:02:40.941 Something called head of the household voting is being floated 0:02:40.982 --> 0:02:44.102 as a jolly good idea by the US Secretary of 0:02:44.142 --> 0:02:48.502 Defense Pete Hegseth. He recently made a far right Christian 0:02:48.582 --> 0:02:52.462 fringe belief seem pretty mainstream when he shared a video 0:02:52.542 --> 0:02:55.822 to his ex feed. In this video, right, there's this 0:02:55.902 --> 0:02:58.941 controversial pastor called Doug Wilson, and he, for a very 0:02:58.942 --> 0:03:01.382 long time has been founding his own little empire of 0:03:01.622 --> 0:03:05.262 very conservative Christian churches in the Midwest of America. And 0:03:05.382 --> 0:03:08.022 recently they have got more and more popular, and their 0:03:08.022 --> 0:03:10.422 spreading and spreading and spreading and He's just opened one 0:03:10.582 --> 0:03:15.102 in Washington, DC, and devotees of this church have the 0:03:15.302 --> 0:03:18.781 ear of the Trump presidency, as evidenced by the fact 0:03:18.822 --> 0:03:22.462 that heg Seth retweeted this video in which the pastor 0:03:22.502 --> 0:03:27.102 expressed that ideally every household should get one vote, and 0:03:27.181 --> 0:03:31.702 I bet you can't get who in the household gets 0:03:31.782 --> 0:03:37.142 the Is it a dog, it is the man? Assuming that, 0:03:37.222 --> 0:03:38.862 of course there is a man in. 0:03:38.782 --> 0:03:41.302 Every Apparently a woman can get the vote if she's widowed. 0:03:42.502 --> 0:03:46.262 Would this be a relief to us friends, if the 0:03:46.302 --> 0:03:48.782 men took care of all that messy having opinions? 0:03:48.822 --> 0:03:52.102 Shit, Look, I have some feelings. 0:03:52.182 --> 0:03:55.102 Firstly, I just I read this and I went not 0:03:55.182 --> 0:04:01.542 all Christians. I'm just I'm horrified, and I feel as 0:04:01.582 --> 0:04:03.222 though it's got to be put in the context of 0:04:03.382 --> 0:04:07.102 heg Seth. This isn't just an idea he's playing with. 0:04:07.302 --> 0:04:10.622 He has outstoed multiple senior women from roles in the 0:04:10.622 --> 0:04:14.982 military since he has been appointed this role. He went 0:04:15.062 --> 0:04:19.022 through the Pentagon's Women Peace and Security program, took out 0:04:19.062 --> 0:04:20.782 a whole lot of female roles because he said that 0:04:20.822 --> 0:04:24.222 they were woke and that they were prioritizing feminism. 0:04:24.421 --> 0:04:26.981 So oh, look, it's am I laughing. 0:04:27.142 --> 0:04:30.821 It feels pretty horrific. But I actually heard Hannah Rosen 0:04:30.902 --> 0:04:33.902 speak last week at this conference, and she wrote a 0:04:33.902 --> 0:04:36.702 book thirteen years ago called The End of Men, and 0:04:36.741 --> 0:04:39.301 she made a prediction in that that said, and her 0:04:39.421 --> 0:04:42.262 argument was basically that women college graduates going through the 0:04:42.342 --> 0:04:45.621 roof women were making more money. Women's roles are plastic 0:04:45.662 --> 0:04:47.662 and malleable, whereas men are cardboard. 0:04:47.702 --> 0:04:48.501 It feels like they're. 0:04:48.421 --> 0:04:50.901 Unable to evolve from a very traditional role and there 0:04:50.941 --> 0:04:53.222 are some issues there. She wasn't celebrating the end of men. 0:04:53.262 --> 0:04:55.662 She was just saying, we're seeing a cultural shift. She 0:04:55.702 --> 0:04:57.822 had two predictions. She said, one of two things is 0:04:57.861 --> 0:05:00.582 going to happen. The first is gender roles become more 0:05:00.582 --> 0:05:03.782 flexible and we just all evolve and mix and at 0:05:03.821 --> 0:05:04.621 this great utopia. 0:05:04.741 --> 0:05:05.821 I vote for that version. 0:05:06.861 --> 0:05:07.462 Let's do it. 0:05:07.782 --> 0:05:11.981 The other option was that men can't handle it and 0:05:12.142 --> 0:05:14.582 all hell breaks loose. That was her second prediction. 0:05:14.662 --> 0:05:18.181 And I have a terrible feeling that her second prediction 0:05:18.301 --> 0:05:18.902 came true. 0:05:19.381 --> 0:05:20.662 Definitely sounds more familiar. 0:05:20.861 --> 0:05:23.821 Yeah, speaking of not all Christians. So Jesse, did you 0:05:23.821 --> 0:05:26.061 know there's only one country in the entire world where 0:05:26.181 --> 0:05:27.621 women are not allowed to vote. Do you know what 0:05:27.662 --> 0:05:29.581 it is where that in can City? 0:05:30.142 --> 0:05:30.822 Is it really? 0:05:31.621 --> 0:05:31.861 Yes? 0:05:31.902 --> 0:05:34.862 It is. Obviously there's some complexities in that. Not all 0:05:34.902 --> 0:05:38.342 countries in the world have democratic voting systems. Yes, but 0:05:39.022 --> 0:05:44.741 universal suffrage everywhere except for the seat of Catholicism. I'll 0:05:44.782 --> 0:05:47.621 just leave that. 0:05:48.022 --> 0:05:51.181 We were not looking for people who were overweight and happy. 0:05:51.262 --> 0:05:52.101 I'm a secret leader. 0:05:52.262 --> 0:05:55.381 We were looking for people who were overweight and unhappy. 0:05:55.582 --> 0:05:57.782 Needi, you would fix my marriage, maybe always fix me, 0:05:58.181 --> 0:05:59.902 do anything to be on your show. 0:06:00.902 --> 0:06:06.822 They were really reinforcing the stereotypes people like making fun 0:06:06.821 --> 0:06:08.861 of bad people, and producers love that. 0:06:09.902 --> 0:06:12.342 I'm not trying to quit. I'm not well. 0:06:12.381 --> 0:06:17.022 They do it, Joel, Stop saying all these words. Quit talking. 0:06:17.621 --> 0:06:20.741 I'm second, just words words words talk talk talk, Shut 0:06:20.782 --> 0:06:22.702 the un just do it. 0:06:23.501 --> 0:06:26.301 This week, one of the most confronting documentaries I've ever 0:06:26.342 --> 0:06:29.061 watched tit Netflix, and it wasn't about a brutal crime 0:06:29.342 --> 0:06:32.861 or a multimillion dollar love scam. It's called Fit for TV, 0:06:33.222 --> 0:06:35.741 the Reality of Biggest Loser, and it focuses on the 0:06:35.741 --> 0:06:38.981 phenomenon that was the weight loss reality show The Biggest Loser. 0:06:39.462 --> 0:06:41.821 For those who might not remember it. The US version 0:06:41.902 --> 0:06:44.342 first aired in two thousand and six and the Australian 0:06:44.342 --> 0:06:48.021 format followed pretty soon after that same year, where overweight 0:06:48.061 --> 0:06:50.541 and obese people could sign up for what was essentially 0:06:50.621 --> 0:06:53.662 a televised fat camp. They were made to exercise for 0:06:53.741 --> 0:06:56.502 hours on end, consumer as little as eight hundred calories 0:06:56.501 --> 0:06:58.702 a day, and they were screamed at by the trainers 0:06:58.782 --> 0:07:01.981 in the name of entertainment. The contestants competed to win 0:07:02.101 --> 0:07:04.462 up to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in the US, 0:07:04.541 --> 0:07:06.741 it was almost the same here about two hundred k, 0:07:07.301 --> 0:07:10.502 with Danny Cahill breaking the US record by losing fifty 0:07:10.582 --> 0:07:13.222 five percent of his original body weight, so to put 0:07:13.262 --> 0:07:15.262 that into perspective, he lost one hundred and ninety five 0:07:15.302 --> 0:07:17.821 kilos in six months during the course of the show. 0:07:18.462 --> 0:07:21.582 And in this doco former contestants, even one of the trainers, 0:07:21.622 --> 0:07:25.062 Bob Harper, and the executive producers of the show talk 0:07:25.102 --> 0:07:27.702 about the toll the show, talk on the contestants and 0:07:27.782 --> 0:07:31.302 the subsequent fallout for them, And I think the reason 0:07:31.342 --> 0:07:35.021 it's so confronting for so many women is thoughts about 0:07:35.062 --> 0:07:38.662 weight play as a constant monologue in our heads. They 0:07:38.702 --> 0:07:41.622 definitely do in mind, and many of us know the 0:07:41.622 --> 0:07:45.022 calories of everything we consume. We're always kind of feeling 0:07:45.062 --> 0:07:47.182 like we should be taking up less space and punishing 0:07:47.182 --> 0:07:50.062 ourselves with exercise. So this show has a lot to 0:07:50.102 --> 0:07:52.662 answer for in the role that that played in driving 0:07:52.662 --> 0:07:55.462 that messaging home. But I think it's easy to lose 0:07:55.462 --> 0:07:57.782 sight of the fact that as straight sized women, we 0:07:57.902 --> 0:08:00.622 can't even begin to imagine the toll this show took 0:08:00.662 --> 0:08:04.902 on overweight or obese people watching and seeing that messaging reinforce, 0:08:05.022 --> 0:08:07.902 even through the name of the show being so negatively coded. 0:08:08.342 --> 0:08:11.221 We had a conversation this smaller and producer Ruth shared 0:08:11.262 --> 0:08:15.462 some deeply personal feelings about this documentary, and we're going 0:08:15.502 --> 0:08:17.982 to share what she said in her words with you now. 0:08:18.702 --> 0:08:19.941 I am fat. 0:08:20.982 --> 0:08:23.862 Three little words, that's all they were. But as I 0:08:23.902 --> 0:08:26.222 said them, I could feel my throat constrict and a 0:08:26.262 --> 0:08:28.982 wave of tears pushing against the back of my eyeballs. 0:08:29.702 --> 0:08:35.302 How embarrassing, How bloody embarrassing. This was me, producer Ruth, 0:08:35.302 --> 0:08:38.902 who's supposed to be in charge of things on out loud, 0:08:39.542 --> 0:08:42.462 crying in our planning meeting this morning, a meeting we 0:08:42.542 --> 0:08:45.742 have before every episode of the show out loud, as 0:08:45.902 --> 0:08:47.782 it wasn't the best start to the day. 0:08:48.702 --> 0:08:50.062 Look, there is context to this. 0:08:50.342 --> 0:08:53.982 I don't normally blurt out things about myself which frankly, 0:08:54.582 --> 0:08:58.702 are patently obvious to anyone with eyeballs, because yes, while 0:08:58.702 --> 0:09:00.462 I'm here, I might as well go the whole hog 0:09:00.502 --> 0:09:03.022 and tell you that I'm not just fat as in 0:09:03.142 --> 0:09:05.982 I could lose a few I'm not just a bit 0:09:06.062 --> 0:09:10.502 curvy or voluptuous or plus size. I'm actually morbidly obese, 0:09:10.822 --> 0:09:14.942 and yes, it is a fucker. The reason I was 0:09:14.982 --> 0:09:17.942 saying I am fat was because we were discussing talking 0:09:17.942 --> 0:09:20.702 about the Biggest Loser doco on the show, and I 0:09:20.822 --> 0:09:23.382 had things to say about it. There's no doubt in 0:09:23.462 --> 0:09:25.742 my mind that you don't have to be a beast 0:09:25.822 --> 0:09:29.062 to talk about this doco. That goes for any topic 0:09:29.102 --> 0:09:31.462 in my book. You want to talk about something, go 0:09:31.502 --> 0:09:35.182 ahead and talk about it. It's just that on this day, 0:09:35.622 --> 0:09:38.902 on this morning, in this meeting, I was the only 0:09:38.942 --> 0:09:42.142 fat person at the table and had a perspective that 0:09:42.342 --> 0:09:45.302 might be different to my straight size colleagues. I'm also 0:09:45.342 --> 0:09:48.462 really aware that this is my perspective, a mine alone. 0:09:48.542 --> 0:09:50.702 I don't pretend, for one minute to speak for every 0:09:50.702 --> 0:09:55.502 fat person out there. I watched the Biggest Loser documentary 0:09:55.902 --> 0:09:59.142 like someone rubbernecking at a car crash. You don't want 0:09:59.142 --> 0:10:02.182 to look, but you can't stop, and when you do look, 0:10:02.342 --> 0:10:05.462 you're both horrified at what happened and ashamed at the 0:10:05.462 --> 0:10:08.022 part of you that enjoyed the spectacle in the first place. 0:10:09.102 --> 0:10:12.142 That's what the show always was for me. Fat people 0:10:12.182 --> 0:10:15.302 paraded around for the entertainment of the thin, with a 0:10:15.342 --> 0:10:18.982 side order of inspiration, so the cruelty could be passed 0:10:18.982 --> 0:10:22.782 off as kindness. What I liked about the documentary was 0:10:22.822 --> 0:10:26.142 the honesty. Finally someone said what should have been obvious 0:10:26.142 --> 0:10:31.982 all along. Those transformations weren't success stories. They were trauma responses. 0:10:32.702 --> 0:10:35.702 Starve anyone scream at them long enough on national TV. 0:10:36.302 --> 0:10:39.822 Deprive them of sleep, and they'll shed kilos hell even 0:10:39.902 --> 0:10:44.462 I would. It's not discipline, it's desperation. You could see 0:10:44.462 --> 0:10:47.542 it in their faces, those dead eyed weigh ins, bodies 0:10:47.582 --> 0:10:51.862 shaking on treadmills. Those contestants were being punished for being fat. 0:10:52.422 --> 0:10:55.662 The network made money out of it, the audience were entertained. 0:10:56.302 --> 0:10:59.942 That's how TV works. Hearing that honesty felt good, like 0:10:59.982 --> 0:11:03.982 a weird kind of justice, too little, too late, but 0:11:04.182 --> 0:11:08.262 something at least. But then came the other part, the hatred, 0:11:09.102 --> 0:11:11.942 because the documentary was also a mirror, and mirrors aren't 0:11:11.982 --> 0:11:14.702 kind to people like me. I won't look in one. 0:11:14.742 --> 0:11:17.702 A compact is the largest mirror in which I'll ever 0:11:17.822 --> 0:11:21.862 allow myself to see my reflection. Watching those old clips 0:11:21.902 --> 0:11:25.022 spliced with present day regret, I realized I used to 0:11:25.022 --> 0:11:28.182 sit there inwardly cheering. I wanted to believe in the 0:11:28.222 --> 0:11:32.022 punishment self loathing fatty that I am. I wanted to 0:11:32.022 --> 0:11:35.302 believe fatness could be beaten out of us them me 0:11:35.942 --> 0:11:38.742 like a demon. And if you didn't win, it was 0:11:38.782 --> 0:11:41.742 because you lacked the moral fiber. And that's the real 0:11:41.822 --> 0:11:43.782 rot at the center of The Biggest Loser. 0:11:44.462 --> 0:11:45.262 It taught us that. 0:11:45.222 --> 0:11:48.422 Fat isn't just a body, it's a character flaw. The 0:11:48.462 --> 0:11:52.502 doco showed the scars, the ruined metabolisms, destroyed mental health 0:11:52.902 --> 0:11:56.662 people yeo yoing their way into permanent damage. But here's 0:11:56.702 --> 0:11:59.742 what they didn't quite say. Those scars aren't just on 0:11:59.782 --> 0:12:03.902 the contestants. They're on everyone who watched, everyone who learned 0:12:03.902 --> 0:12:06.822 to hate their own reflection because the culture told us 0:12:06.862 --> 0:12:09.782 our worth could be read off a bathroom scale. It's 0:12:09.782 --> 0:12:12.622 not just that the contestants were abused, it's that the 0:12:12.662 --> 0:12:15.582 rest of us were trained to see that abuse is deserved. 0:12:16.702 --> 0:12:19.702 What I hated most was how familiar it all felt. 0:12:19.822 --> 0:12:23.262 The fake cheering, the brutal cuts to tears and sweat, 0:12:23.782 --> 0:12:26.542 the public weigh ins where people shamed were served up 0:12:26.582 --> 0:12:31.222 as family entertainment. I grew up marinating in that message. 0:12:31.702 --> 0:12:35.862 If you're fat, you're disgusting. If you're thin, you're safe 0:12:36.062 --> 0:12:39.742 for now. The show wasn't a diet program. It was 0:12:39.782 --> 0:12:42.102 a morality play, and we all bought tickets. 0:12:43.422 --> 0:12:44.062 So yes, the. 0:12:44.022 --> 0:12:47.542 Documentary told the truth. But truth doesn't undo the damage. 0:12:48.022 --> 0:12:50.262 It doesn't erase the nights I went to bed hungry, 0:12:50.342 --> 0:12:54.182 convinced that pain was proof of virtue. The days I 0:12:54.262 --> 0:12:57.662 spend trying to make myself that little bit smaller, that 0:12:57.742 --> 0:13:00.102 little bit less, so I don't take up quite as 0:13:00.182 --> 0:13:02.862 much room in the world for fear of someone calling 0:13:02.902 --> 0:13:08.422 me out as fat, lazy, stupid, smelly. It doesn't quiet 0:13:08.422 --> 0:13:10.542 the voice in my head that's all measures my worth 0:13:10.582 --> 0:13:15.502 in Kilo's decades later, watching it was like seeing my 0:13:15.582 --> 0:13:21.502 abuser finally unmasked. Satisfying but also sickening because it reminded 0:13:21.542 --> 0:13:25.062 me of how willingly I played along. I loved it, 0:13:25.622 --> 0:13:29.182 I hated it. Mostly I mourned it because while the 0:13:29.222 --> 0:13:32.382 circus has left town, the scars it left are permanent. 0:13:33.942 --> 0:13:35.702 The way that you put words around how that felt. 0:13:35.782 --> 0:13:38.141 I think people should probably know that Ruth is a writer. 0:13:38.582 --> 0:13:42.622 And any surprise to anyone who heard that that she's 0:13:42.422 --> 0:13:43.862 a stunning writer. 0:13:45.382 --> 0:13:47.422 I think that really speaks to the heart of this 0:13:47.622 --> 0:13:52.982 story and actually like the trauma of people who grew 0:13:53.102 --> 0:13:56.142 up with this, because you can remember what this did 0:13:56.182 --> 0:13:58.462 to the culture, that it was the time when everyone 0:13:58.542 --> 0:14:02.982 knew every calorie count and gyms were full of people 0:14:02.982 --> 0:14:06.862 who understood this to be punishment, and that show just 0:14:06.982 --> 0:14:07.822 reinforced that. 0:14:08.582 --> 0:14:11.182 And this wasn't a quick moment in time like this 0:14:11.262 --> 0:14:13.782 run for eleven seasons in Australia and I think even 0:14:13.862 --> 0:14:18.022 longer in the US, so this really did have a 0:14:18.062 --> 0:14:20.422 lasting impact on generations of people. 0:14:20.822 --> 0:14:25.222 After listening to Ruth's unbelievable perspective there, like, I don't 0:14:25.262 --> 0:14:27.782 have very much to add at all. I watched this 0:14:27.902 --> 0:14:32.342 documentary and I felt astounded because it's most it's about 0:14:32.342 --> 0:14:36.462 the American Biggest Loser for clarity, and at that show's peak, 0:14:36.582 --> 0:14:41.622 eleven million Americans were watching that show, and hundreds and 0:14:41.742 --> 0:14:44.742 thousands of people wanted to be on that show. And 0:14:44.822 --> 0:14:48.182 I think all the complexity of those facts are reflected 0:14:48.182 --> 0:14:51.902 in what Ruth just said and to what you said 0:14:51.942 --> 0:14:54.462 in the intro Stacey, where I think for a lot 0:14:54.502 --> 0:14:56.942 of women in particular, like the stats say that right 0:14:56.982 --> 0:15:00.022 now about sixty percent of Australians are actively trying to 0:15:00.062 --> 0:15:02.982 lose weight, not just women, just Australians are actively trying 0:15:02.982 --> 0:15:05.942 to lose weight. So a very large percentage of the 0:15:05.942 --> 0:15:09.702 population can relate on some level to feeling like their 0:15:09.742 --> 0:15:13.422 body is wrong right, and that women in particular are 0:15:13.462 --> 0:15:16.422 constantly being told that there is something wrong with our 0:15:16.422 --> 0:15:18.982 bodies and no matter what size, no matter what the 0:15:19.062 --> 0:15:22.582 number on the scales, that we have a piece in 0:15:22.662 --> 0:15:28.022 this shame around being too greedy and wanting too much 0:15:28.022 --> 0:15:30.862 and eating the wrong things and all of that stuff. 0:15:30.902 --> 0:15:33.502 And that's all true. And I think that's why there 0:15:33.582 --> 0:15:37.702 was almost like a safety that people could watch The 0:15:37.742 --> 0:15:40.502 Biggest Loser, and whether they admit this to themselves or not, 0:15:40.622 --> 0:15:41.142 they could go. 0:15:41.182 --> 0:15:43.662 But I'm not those people do you know what I mean, 0:15:43.782 --> 0:15:45.542 and that had mentioned in the documentary. 0:15:45.662 --> 0:15:47.582 Yes, And I think that the thing is is that 0:15:47.622 --> 0:15:49.662 so we can all relate to a piece of it. 0:15:50.622 --> 0:15:54.462 But I think what Ruth's unbelievable piece of writing that 0:15:54.542 --> 0:15:56.702 she just delivered says that we can relate to a 0:15:56.742 --> 0:16:00.942 piece of it, but we can't relate to that entire experience, 0:16:01.062 --> 0:16:04.782 and we shouldn't try and own any of that. 0:16:05.382 --> 0:16:09.102 My twin sister Claire did her post grad studies on 0:16:09.262 --> 0:16:13.462 the relationship between obesity and eating disorders. There was a movement, 0:16:13.622 --> 0:16:17.142 and it's interestingly sort of lost a bit of momentum, 0:16:17.142 --> 0:16:19.662 but it was about health at any size, and how 0:16:19.702 --> 0:16:24.822 the experience of shame, according to every psychological study ever conducted, 0:16:25.622 --> 0:16:32.502 does not change behavior. In fact, shame around weight causes 0:16:32.542 --> 0:16:35.462 more issues than it prevents. The idea that shaming these 0:16:35.462 --> 0:16:38.262 people on a national platform would somehow lead to a 0:16:38.342 --> 0:16:43.302 revolution in people's relationship with their health was so misguided, 0:16:43.742 --> 0:16:45.782 and I think we can see that now, and it 0:16:45.862 --> 0:16:50.582 was steeped in all of these assumptions that we did 0:16:50.582 --> 0:16:52.782 see at the time. But I suppose with a step back, 0:16:52.862 --> 0:16:56.542 there's even more clarity. Like I remember Claire and I 0:16:56.542 --> 0:16:58.502 would write these recaps of the Biggest Loser, and it 0:16:58.542 --> 0:17:01.062 was through analysis and kind of going, let's just unpack 0:17:01.102 --> 0:17:04.462 that assumption, the assumption that everyone on that show had 0:17:04.502 --> 0:17:07.742 to admit that they were sad and that their lives 0:17:07.782 --> 0:17:10.581 had been a tragedy up until the point, and that 0:17:11.142 --> 0:17:14.622 the only way that they would be worthy mothers, worthy 0:17:15.182 --> 0:17:17.902 to their partners would be if they lost this weight. 0:17:17.942 --> 0:17:20.221 And that was also sending it back, like there was 0:17:20.262 --> 0:17:21.981 one where this this man, I'll never forget it. He 0:17:21.982 --> 0:17:23.221 stood up and he said, I'm not going to tell 0:17:23.262 --> 0:17:24.101 you I'm sad and depressed. 0:17:24.101 --> 0:17:24.341 I'm not. 0:17:25.022 --> 0:17:26.661 And one of the trainers looked at him. This was 0:17:26.661 --> 0:17:29.262 in Australia and said, honestly, and it was like they 0:17:29.302 --> 0:17:32.981 all stood there until you admit, you admit that. 0:17:32.861 --> 0:17:33.821 You are a failure. 0:17:34.581 --> 0:17:36.422 I also want to just take a minute to look 0:17:36.462 --> 0:17:39.061 at the decline of this show in the context of Australia, 0:17:39.101 --> 0:17:43.181 because I remembered that it ended with a bit of 0:17:43.222 --> 0:17:45.262 a whimper, and I went what happened? Because I remember 0:17:45.302 --> 0:17:48.101 there were all these iterations, there were children on it, There. 0:17:47.982 --> 0:17:48.901 Was this a town. 0:17:49.061 --> 0:17:51.462 Remember it was like Australia's fattest town. 0:17:51.742 --> 0:17:52.022 Yep. 0:17:52.462 --> 0:17:54.742 And there was all of this ground swell of criticism. 0:17:54.782 --> 0:17:57.181 So I think we tell ourselves the culture changed, the 0:17:57.182 --> 0:18:00.182 culture moved on. It's actually not what happened. What happened 0:18:00.302 --> 0:18:04.022 was the format of the show changed. The last season, 0:18:04.742 --> 0:18:08.302 they had a psychologist come in and they would have 0:18:08.581 --> 0:18:13.182 like weekly sessions with a psychologist. They changed the challenges. 0:18:13.182 --> 0:18:16.501 There was no more temptation where they basically encouraged and 0:18:16.542 --> 0:18:20.341 rewarded binge eating. They didn't make the people roll around 0:18:20.381 --> 0:18:23.502 in mud anymore. What they did was they went, can 0:18:23.542 --> 0:18:26.061 you cook a healthy meal for a family for twenty 0:18:26.141 --> 0:18:27.902 five bucks? What's the healthiest way you can cook? 0:18:27.982 --> 0:18:28.101 Check? 0:18:28.141 --> 0:18:31.141 They made it like that, and it became people went, oh, well. 0:18:30.982 --> 0:18:34.702 Now it's well, here's an interesting question. And we talked 0:18:34.702 --> 0:18:37.061 about this a little bit with the Jerry Springer documentary 0:18:37.061 --> 0:18:38.262 that came up, because we seem to be in a 0:18:38.302 --> 0:18:41.302 bit of a moment where we are revising our view 0:18:41.341 --> 0:18:45.341 of big cultural moments in terms of our current lens. 0:18:46.022 --> 0:18:49.302 On this documentary, they interview you know, the EPs, the 0:18:49.581 --> 0:18:53.782 creators of this show, and the argument is very similar 0:18:53.821 --> 0:18:56.702 to the Jerry Springer producer's argument, which is people love 0:18:56.782 --> 0:19:00.861 this shit. You know, everyone in media, there is a saying, really, 0:19:00.901 --> 0:19:02.581 do you give people more of what they want or 0:19:02.621 --> 0:19:04.341 less of what they want? And it is framed as 0:19:04.381 --> 0:19:07.061 a very a question that isn't a question, right, a 0:19:07.141 --> 0:19:10.701 rhetorical question, And so the defense of this kind of 0:19:10.742 --> 0:19:14.782 television has always been but people love it, people are 0:19:15.141 --> 0:19:18.221 like getting inspired, but also they are you really going 0:19:18.262 --> 0:19:20.022 to tell people what they should watch and what they 0:19:20.061 --> 0:19:23.701 shouldn't watch on TV? And that's a really interesting point 0:19:23.821 --> 0:19:27.221 around because we were talking before about which shows of 0:19:27.302 --> 0:19:29.022 now we would look back on, And I'm not trying 0:19:29.022 --> 0:19:31.782 to draw a parallel because I think as roots amazing 0:19:32.141 --> 0:19:34.742 essay has made it clear there are some very very 0:19:34.782 --> 0:19:37.661 deep cuts here. But it's will we look back on 0:19:37.702 --> 0:19:40.621 marrit at First Sight and all these awful dating shows 0:19:40.661 --> 0:19:43.901 that we're watching with the trauma lens in ten to 0:19:43.942 --> 0:19:44.742 twenty years. 0:19:44.942 --> 0:19:45.581 I think we will. 0:19:45.621 --> 0:19:47.581 I think that now we hear of something called duty 0:19:47.621 --> 0:19:51.422 of care which didn't exist prior, and I think that 0:19:51.621 --> 0:19:53.942 the power dynamics have changed. But I do think looking 0:19:53.942 --> 0:19:56.061 back because there was a documentary last year on America's 0:19:56.101 --> 0:19:59.101 Next Top Model, it wasn't as widely distributed. I actually 0:19:59.101 --> 0:20:02.341 haven't seen it, but that was also overdue that analyzed it, 0:20:02.381 --> 0:20:05.181 and part of me goes, we were all swimming in 0:20:05.222 --> 0:20:08.221 the same culture. Is Tyra Banks any more culpable than 0:20:08.222 --> 0:20:10.901 I am because I sat down and watch every week? 0:20:11.422 --> 0:20:14.381 So there is a flaw in using the standards of 0:20:14.422 --> 0:20:16.781 the present to look back at a cultural moment and 0:20:16.861 --> 0:20:18.022 blame all the players. 0:20:18.422 --> 0:20:19.542 What I will say about. 0:20:19.341 --> 0:20:21.381 Watching this is that I looked at the producers and 0:20:21.381 --> 0:20:24.262 the trainers and I went, you're lacking some self awareness. 0:20:24.422 --> 0:20:27.341