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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out Loud. What women are actually talking about

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Speaker 2: on Wednesday, the twentieth of August. My name is Hollywayne Wright.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jesse Stevens and I'm Stacy Higgs.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to out Loud.

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Speaker 1: Stacey so much.

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Speaker 2: It's very exciting to have you here.

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Speaker 1: I'm come dressed as a taller version of Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 1: You are in the same shirt.

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Speaker 2: Tell the people who you are in case they don't know.

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Speaker 1: So I am MoMA me as deputy editor. And you

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Speaker 1: might have heard me on Parenting out Loud and you

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Speaker 1: will hear more about that next week.

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Speaker 3: And we should say, yes, Stacey and I are wearing

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Speaker 3: the same shirt.

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Speaker 2: Okay, isn't this shirt viral or something?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Yes, I have it in three colors, and I forget

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Speaker 1: what I wore before. I have it shirt in two.

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Speaker 2: I really like it. Shit, I need to get it,

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Speaker 2: But then I'm just like then we could all be

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Speaker 2: wearing it.

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Speaker 3: The thing about this shirt is every time we wear

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Speaker 3: it to work, we run into three other people who

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Speaker 3: have it the Abasa recently for something and they stopped me.

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Speaker 4: They said, you've got the viral shirt and I was like,

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Speaker 4: that's something no one's ever said to me. This shirt.

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Speaker 4: It has sleeves and stripes.

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Speaker 3: I cannot express how there is nothing interesting or exceptional

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Speaker 3: about this shirt, but the hold it has on the

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Speaker 3: culture needs to be acknowledged.

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Speaker 4: Is Lioness Yep, it's sixty bucks.

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Speaker 1: Yep, it's forty bucks.

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Speaker 2: At the moment, Geez, I need to call mea Friedman,

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Speaker 2: our friend and find out how many of those she owns.

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Speaker 1: Because it's just something that she likes. It's a viral

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Speaker 1: item of clothing. It's weird that Jesse and I are

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Speaker 1: early adopters. That never happens in my experience. Don't know

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Speaker 1: how that happened.

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Speaker 2: But here we are. Okay, back to business. Things that

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Speaker 2: made our agenda today, Stacey.

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Speaker 1: There's a new Netflix documentary that will make you rethink

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest reality shows that we all watched.

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Speaker 3: There's also a very important roundtable taking place in Canberra

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Speaker 3: and we are going to elbow our way in and

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Speaker 3: offer some suggestions, very.

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Speaker 2: Helpful suggestion and how kitchen cabinets brought one of the

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Speaker 2: biggest self help gurus in the world to her knees. Yes,

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Speaker 2: we're talking about Meil Robbins. But first, what if you

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Speaker 2: didn't have to vote? What if you didn't have to

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Speaker 2: bother your pretty little head about complicated issues like human rights,

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Speaker 2: environmental issues, defense, education, and health spending. Well, there's someone

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Speaker 2: pretty high up in the Trump administration who's got some

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Speaker 2: good news for you.

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Speaker 4: He's pat new on your little head. He's saying, don't

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Speaker 4: you worry, a little lady, don't you worry.

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Speaker 1: Don't have to think about this stuff.

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Speaker 2: Something called head of the household voting is being floated

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Speaker 2: as a jolly good idea by the US Secretary of

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Speaker 2: Defense Pete Hegseth. He recently made a far right Christian

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Speaker 2: fringe belief seem pretty mainstream when he shared a video

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Speaker 2: to his ex feed. In this video, right, there's this

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Speaker 2: controversial pastor called Doug Wilson, and he, for a very

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Speaker 2: long time has been founding his own little empire of

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Speaker 2: very conservative Christian churches in the Midwest of America. And

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Speaker 2: recently they have got more and more popular, and their

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Speaker 2: spreading and spreading and spreading and He's just opened one

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Speaker 2: in Washington, DC, and devotees of this church have the

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Speaker 2: ear of the Trump presidency, as evidenced by the fact

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Speaker 2: that heg Seth retweeted this video in which the pastor

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Speaker 2: expressed that ideally every household should get one vote, and

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Speaker 2: I bet you can't get who in the household gets

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Speaker 2: the Is it a dog, it is the man? Assuming that,

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Speaker 2: of course there is a man in.

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Speaker 4: Every Apparently a woman can get the vote if she's widowed.

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Speaker 2: Would this be a relief to us friends, if the

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Speaker 2: men took care of all that messy having opinions?

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Speaker 4: Shit, Look, I have some feelings.

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Speaker 3: Firstly, I just I read this and I went not

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Speaker 3: all Christians. I'm just I'm horrified, and I feel as

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Speaker 3: though it's got to be put in the context of

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Speaker 3: heg Seth. This isn't just an idea he's playing with.

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Speaker 3: He has outstoed multiple senior women from roles in the

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Speaker 3: military since he has been appointed this role. He went

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Speaker 3: through the Pentagon's Women Peace and Security program, took out

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Speaker 3: a whole lot of female roles because he said that

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Speaker 3: they were woke and that they were prioritizing feminism.

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Speaker 4: So oh, look, it's am I laughing.

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Speaker 3: It feels pretty horrific. But I actually heard Hannah Rosen

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Speaker 3: speak last week at this conference, and she wrote a

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Speaker 3: book thirteen years ago called The End of Men, and

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Speaker 3: she made a prediction in that that said, and her

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Speaker 3: argument was basically that women college graduates going through the

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Speaker 3: roof women were making more money. Women's roles are plastic

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Speaker 3: and malleable, whereas men are cardboard.

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Speaker 4: It feels like they're.

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Speaker 3: Unable to evolve from a very traditional role and there

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Speaker 3: are some issues there. She wasn't celebrating the end of men.

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Speaker 3: She was just saying, we're seeing a cultural shift. She

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Speaker 3: had two predictions. She said, one of two things is

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Speaker 3: going to happen. The first is gender roles become more

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Speaker 3: flexible and we just all evolve and mix and at

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Speaker 3: this great utopia.

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Speaker 2: I vote for that version.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it.

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Speaker 3: The other option was that men can't handle it and

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Speaker 3: all hell breaks loose. That was her second prediction.

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Speaker 4: And I have a terrible feeling that her second prediction

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Speaker 4: came true.

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Speaker 1: Definitely sounds more familiar.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, speaking of not all Christians. So Jesse, did you

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Speaker 2: know there's only one country in the entire world where

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Speaker 2: women are not allowed to vote. Do you know what

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Speaker 2: it is where that in can City?

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Speaker 4: Is it really?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 2: It is. Obviously there's some complexities in that. Not all

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Speaker 2: countries in the world have democratic voting systems. Yes, but

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Speaker 2: universal suffrage everywhere except for the seat of Catholicism. I'll

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Speaker 2: just leave that.

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Speaker 4: We were not looking for people who were overweight and happy.

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Speaker 5: I'm a secret leader.

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Speaker 4: We were looking for people who were overweight and unhappy.

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Speaker 2: Needi, you would fix my marriage, maybe always fix me,

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Speaker 2: do anything to be on your show.

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Speaker 5: They were really reinforcing the stereotypes people like making fun

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Speaker 5: of bad people, and producers love that.

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Speaker 4: I'm not trying to quit. I'm not well.

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Speaker 2: They do it, Joel, Stop saying all these words. Quit talking.

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Speaker 4: I'm second, just words words words talk talk talk, Shut

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Speaker 4: the un just do it.

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Speaker 1: This week, one of the most confronting documentaries I've ever

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Speaker 1: watched tit Netflix, and it wasn't about a brutal crime

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Speaker 1: or a multimillion dollar love scam. It's called Fit for TV,

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Speaker 1: the Reality of Biggest Loser, and it focuses on the

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Speaker 1: phenomenon that was the weight loss reality show The Biggest Loser.

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Speaker 1: For those who might not remember it. The US version

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Speaker 1: first aired in two thousand and six and the Australian

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Speaker 1: format followed pretty soon after that same year, where overweight

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Speaker 1: and obese people could sign up for what was essentially

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Speaker 1: a televised fat camp. They were made to exercise for

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Speaker 1: hours on end, consumer as little as eight hundred calories

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Speaker 1: a day, and they were screamed at by the trainers

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Speaker 1: in the name of entertainment. The contestants competed to win

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Speaker 1: up to two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in the US,

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Speaker 1: it was almost the same here about two hundred k,

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Speaker 1: with Danny Cahill breaking the US record by losing fifty

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Speaker 1: five percent of his original body weight, so to put

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Speaker 1: that into perspective, he lost one hundred and ninety five

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Speaker 1: kilos in six months during the course of the show.

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Speaker 1: And in this doco former contestants, even one of the trainers,

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Speaker 1: Bob Harper, and the executive producers of the show talk

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Speaker 1: about the toll the show, talk on the contestants and

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Speaker 1: the subsequent fallout for them, And I think the reason

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Speaker 1: it's so confronting for so many women is thoughts about

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Speaker 1: weight play as a constant monologue in our heads. They

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Speaker 1: definitely do in mind, and many of us know the

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Speaker 1: calories of everything we consume. We're always kind of feeling

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Speaker 1: like we should be taking up less space and punishing

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Speaker 1: ourselves with exercise. So this show has a lot to

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Speaker 1: answer for in the role that that played in driving

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Speaker 1: that messaging home. But I think it's easy to lose

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Speaker 1: sight of the fact that as straight sized women, we

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Speaker 1: can't even begin to imagine the toll this show took

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Speaker 1: on overweight or obese people watching and seeing that messaging reinforce,

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Speaker 1: even through the name of the show being so negatively coded.

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Speaker 1: We had a conversation this smaller and producer Ruth shared

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Speaker 1: some deeply personal feelings about this documentary, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to share what she said in her words with you now.

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Speaker 2: I am fat.

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Speaker 6: Three little words, that's all they were. But as I

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Speaker 6: said them, I could feel my throat constrict and a

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Speaker 6: wave of tears pushing against the back of my eyeballs.

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Speaker 6: How embarrassing, How bloody embarrassing. This was me, producer Ruth,

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Speaker 6: who's supposed to be in charge of things on out loud,

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Speaker 6: crying in our planning meeting this morning, a meeting we

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Speaker 6: have before every episode of the show out loud, as

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Speaker 6: it wasn't the best start to the day.

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Speaker 1: Look, there is context to this.

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Speaker 6: I don't normally blurt out things about myself which frankly,

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Speaker 6: are patently obvious to anyone with eyeballs, because yes, while

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Speaker 6: I'm here, I might as well go the whole hog

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Speaker 6: and tell you that I'm not just fat as in

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Speaker 6: I could lose a few I'm not just a bit

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Speaker 6: curvy or voluptuous or plus size. I'm actually morbidly obese,

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Speaker 6: and yes, it is a fucker. The reason I was

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Speaker 6: saying I am fat was because we were discussing talking

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Speaker 6: about the Biggest Loser doco on the show, and I

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Speaker 6: had things to say about it. There's no doubt in

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Speaker 6: my mind that you don't have to be a beast

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Speaker 6: to talk about this doco. That goes for any topic

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Speaker 6: in my book. You want to talk about something, go

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Speaker 6: ahead and talk about it. It's just that on this day,

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Speaker 6: on this morning, in this meeting, I was the only

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Speaker 6: fat person at the table and had a perspective that

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Speaker 6: might be different to my straight size colleagues. I'm also

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Speaker 6: really aware that this is my perspective, a mine alone.

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Speaker 6: I don't pretend, for one minute to speak for every

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Speaker 6: fat person out there. I watched the Biggest Loser documentary

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Speaker 6: like someone rubbernecking at a car crash. You don't want

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Speaker 6: to look, but you can't stop, and when you do look,

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Speaker 6: you're both horrified at what happened and ashamed at the

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Speaker 6: part of you that enjoyed the spectacle in the first place.

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Speaker 6: That's what the show always was for me. Fat people

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Speaker 6: paraded around for the entertainment of the thin, with a

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Speaker 6: side order of inspiration, so the cruelty could be passed

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Speaker 6: off as kindness. What I liked about the documentary was

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Speaker 6: the honesty. Finally someone said what should have been obvious

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Speaker 6: all along. Those transformations weren't success stories. They were trauma responses.

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Speaker 6: Starve anyone scream at them long enough on national TV.

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Speaker 6: Deprive them of sleep, and they'll shed kilos hell even

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Speaker 6: I would. It's not discipline, it's desperation. You could see

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Speaker 6: it in their faces, those dead eyed weigh ins, bodies

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Speaker 6: shaking on treadmills. Those contestants were being punished for being fat.

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Speaker 6: The network made money out of it, the audience were entertained.

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Speaker 6: That's how TV works. Hearing that honesty felt good, like

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Speaker 6: a weird kind of justice, too little, too late, but

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Speaker 6: something at least. But then came the other part, the hatred,

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Speaker 6: because the documentary was also a mirror, and mirrors aren't

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Speaker 6: kind to people like me. I won't look in one.

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Speaker 6: A compact is the largest mirror in which I'll ever

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Speaker 6: allow myself to see my reflection. Watching those old clips

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Speaker 6: spliced with present day regret, I realized I used to

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Speaker 6: sit there inwardly cheering. I wanted to believe in the

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Speaker 6: punishment self loathing fatty that I am. I wanted to

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Speaker 6: believe fatness could be beaten out of us them me

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Speaker 6: like a demon. And if you didn't win, it was

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Speaker 6: because you lacked the moral fiber. And that's the real

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Speaker 6: rot at the center of The Biggest Loser.

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Speaker 1: It taught us that.

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Speaker 6: Fat isn't just a body, it's a character flaw. The

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Speaker 6: doco showed the scars, the ruined metabolisms, destroyed mental health

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Speaker 6: people yeo yoing their way into permanent damage. But here's

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Speaker 6: what they didn't quite say. Those scars aren't just on

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Speaker 6: the contestants. They're on everyone who watched, everyone who learned

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Speaker 6: to hate their own reflection because the culture told us

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Speaker 6: our worth could be read off a bathroom scale. It's

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Speaker 6: not just that the contestants were abused, it's that the

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Speaker 6: rest of us were trained to see that abuse is deserved.

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Speaker 6: What I hated most was how familiar it all felt.

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Speaker 6: The fake cheering, the brutal cuts to tears and sweat,

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Speaker 6: the public weigh ins where people shamed were served up

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Speaker 6: as family entertainment. I grew up marinating in that message.

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Speaker 6: If you're fat, you're disgusting. If you're thin, you're safe

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Speaker 6: for now. The show wasn't a diet program. It was

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Speaker 6: a morality play, and we all bought tickets.

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Speaker 1: So yes, the.

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Speaker 6: Documentary told the truth. But truth doesn't undo the damage.

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Speaker 6: It doesn't erase the nights I went to bed hungry,

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Speaker 6: convinced that pain was proof of virtue. The days I

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Speaker 6: spend trying to make myself that little bit smaller, that

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Speaker 6: little bit less, so I don't take up quite as

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Speaker 6: much room in the world for fear of someone calling

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Speaker 6: me out as fat, lazy, stupid, smelly. It doesn't quiet

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Speaker 6: the voice in my head that's all measures my worth

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Speaker 6: in Kilo's decades later, watching it was like seeing my

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Speaker 6: abuser finally unmasked. Satisfying but also sickening because it reminded

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Speaker 6: me of how willingly I played along. I loved it,

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Speaker 6: I hated it. Mostly I mourned it because while the

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Speaker 6: circus has left town, the scars it left are permanent.

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Speaker 3: The way that you put words around how that felt.

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Speaker 3: I think people should probably know that Ruth is a writer.

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Speaker 2: And any surprise to anyone who heard that that she's

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Speaker 2: a stunning writer.

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Speaker 3: I think that really speaks to the heart of this

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Speaker 3: story and actually like the trauma of people who grew

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Speaker 3: up with this, because you can remember what this did

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Speaker 3: to the culture, that it was the time when everyone

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Speaker 3: knew every calorie count and gyms were full of people

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Speaker 3: who understood this to be punishment, and that show just

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Speaker 3: reinforced that.

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Speaker 1: And this wasn't a quick moment in time like this

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Speaker 1: run for eleven seasons in Australia and I think even

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Speaker 1: longer in the US, so this really did have a

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Speaker 1: lasting impact on generations of people.

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Speaker 2: After listening to Ruth's unbelievable perspective there, like, I don't

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Speaker 2: have very much to add at all. I watched this

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Speaker 2: documentary and I felt astounded because it's most it's about

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Speaker 2: the American Biggest Loser for clarity, and at that show's peak,

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Speaker 2: eleven million Americans were watching that show, and hundreds and

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Speaker 2: thousands of people wanted to be on that show. And

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Speaker 2: I think all the complexity of those facts are reflected

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Speaker 2: in what Ruth just said and to what you said

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Speaker 2: in the intro Stacey, where I think for a lot

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Speaker 2: of women in particular, like the stats say that right

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Speaker 2: now about sixty percent of Australians are actively trying to

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Speaker 2: lose weight, not just women, just Australians are actively trying

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Speaker 2: to lose weight. So a very large percentage of the

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Speaker 2: population can relate on some level to feeling like their

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Speaker 2: body is wrong right, and that women in particular are

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Speaker 2: constantly being told that there is something wrong with our

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Speaker 2: bodies and no matter what size, no matter what the

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Speaker 2: number on the scales, that we have a piece in

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Speaker 2: this shame around being too greedy and wanting too much

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Speaker 2: and eating the wrong things and all of that stuff.

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Speaker 2: And that's all true. And I think that's why there

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Speaker 2: was almost like a safety that people could watch The

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Speaker 2: Biggest Loser, and whether they admit this to themselves or not,

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Speaker 2: they could go.

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Speaker 4: But I'm not those people do you know what I mean,

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Speaker 4: and that had mentioned in the documentary.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And I think that the thing is is that

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Speaker 2: so we can all relate to a piece of it.

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Speaker 2: But I think what Ruth's unbelievable piece of writing that

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Speaker 2: she just delivered says that we can relate to a

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Speaker 2: piece of it, but we can't relate to that entire experience,

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Speaker 2: and we shouldn't try and own any of that.

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Speaker 3: My twin sister Claire did her post grad studies on

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Speaker 3: the relationship between obesity and eating disorders. There was a movement,

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Speaker 3: and it's interestingly sort of lost a bit of momentum,

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Speaker 3: but it was about health at any size, and how

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Speaker 3: the experience of shame, according to every psychological study ever conducted,

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Speaker 3: does not change behavior. In fact, shame around weight causes

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Speaker 3: more issues than it prevents. The idea that shaming these

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Speaker 3: people on a national platform would somehow lead to a

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Speaker 3: revolution in people's relationship with their health was so misguided,

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Speaker 3: and I think we can see that now, and it

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Speaker 3: was steeped in all of these assumptions that we did

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Speaker 3: see at the time. But I suppose with a step back,

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Speaker 3: there's even more clarity. Like I remember Claire and I

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Speaker 3: would write these recaps of the Biggest Loser, and it

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Speaker 3: was through analysis and kind of going, let's just unpack

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Speaker 3: that assumption, the assumption that everyone on that show had

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Speaker 3: to admit that they were sad and that their lives

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Speaker 3: had been a tragedy up until the point, and that

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Speaker 3: the only way that they would be worthy mothers, worthy

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Speaker 3: to their partners would be if they lost this weight.

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Speaker 3: And that was also sending it back, like there was

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Speaker 3: one where this this man, I'll never forget it. He

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Speaker 3: stood up and he said, I'm not going to tell

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Speaker 3: you I'm sad and depressed.

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Speaker 4: I'm not.

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Speaker 3: And one of the trainers looked at him. This was

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Speaker 3: in Australia and said, honestly, and it was like they

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Speaker 3: all stood there until you admit, you admit that.

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Speaker 4: You are a failure.

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Speaker 3: I also want to just take a minute to look

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Speaker 3: at the decline of this show in the context of Australia,

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Speaker 3: because I remembered that it ended with a bit of

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Speaker 3: a whimper, and I went what happened? Because I remember

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Speaker 3: there were all these iterations, there were children on it, There.

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Speaker 4: Was this a town.

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Speaker 2: Remember it was like Australia's fattest town.

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Speaker 4: Yep.

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Speaker 3: And there was all of this ground swell of criticism.

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Speaker 3: So I think we tell ourselves the culture changed, the

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Speaker 3: culture moved on. It's actually not what happened. What happened

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Speaker 3: was the format of the show changed. The last season,

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Speaker 3: they had a psychologist come in and they would have

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Speaker 3: like weekly sessions with a psychologist. They changed the challenges.

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Speaker 3: There was no more temptation where they basically encouraged and

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Speaker 3: rewarded binge eating. They didn't make the people roll around

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Speaker 3: in mud anymore. What they did was they went, can

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Speaker 3: you cook a healthy meal for a family for twenty

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Speaker 3: five bucks? What's the healthiest way you can cook?

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Speaker 1: Check?

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Speaker 4: They made it like that, and it became people went, oh, well.

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Speaker 2: Now it's well, here's an interesting question. And we talked

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Speaker 2: about this a little bit with the Jerry Springer documentary

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Speaker 2: that came up, because we seem to be in a

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Speaker 2: bit of a moment where we are revising our view

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Speaker 2: of big cultural moments in terms of our current lens.

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Speaker 2: On this documentary, they interview you know, the EPs, the

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Speaker 2: creators of this show, and the argument is very similar

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Speaker 2: to the Jerry Springer producer's argument, which is people love

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Speaker 2: this shit. You know, everyone in media, there is a saying, really,

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Speaker 2: do you give people more of what they want or

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Speaker 2: less of what they want? And it is framed as

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Speaker 2: a very a question that isn't a question, right, a

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Speaker 2: rhetorical question, And so the defense of this kind of

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Speaker 2: television has always been but people love it, people are

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Speaker 2: like getting inspired, but also they are you really going

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Speaker 2: to tell people what they should watch and what they

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Speaker 2: shouldn't watch on TV? And that's a really interesting point

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Speaker 2: around because we were talking before about which shows of

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Speaker 2: now we would look back on, And I'm not trying

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Speaker 2: to draw a parallel because I think as roots amazing

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Speaker 2: essay has made it clear there are some very very

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Speaker 2: deep cuts here. But it's will we look back on

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Speaker 2: marrit at First Sight and all these awful dating shows

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Speaker 2: that we're watching with the trauma lens in ten to

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Speaker 2: twenty years.

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Speaker 4: I think we will.

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Speaker 3: I think that now we hear of something called duty

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Speaker 3: of care which didn't exist prior, and I think that

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Speaker 3: the power dynamics have changed. But I do think looking

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Speaker 3: back because there was a documentary last year on America's

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Speaker 3: Next Top Model, it wasn't as widely distributed. I actually

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Speaker 3: haven't seen it, but that was also overdue that analyzed it,

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Speaker 3: and part of me goes, we were all swimming in

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Speaker 3: the same culture. Is Tyra Banks any more culpable than

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Speaker 3: I am because I sat down and watch every week?

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Speaker 3: So there is a flaw in using the standards of

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Speaker 3: the present to look back at a cultural moment and

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Speaker 3: blame all the players.

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Speaker 4: What I will say about.

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Speaker 3: Watching this is that I looked at the producers and

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Speaker 3: the trainers and I went, you're lacking some self awareness.

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Speaker 3: You're lacking a little bit of understanding of what you

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Speaker 3: did and how it impacted me.

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Speaker 1: That was the overriding thing for me that stood out

404
00:20:31,621 --> 00:20:34,101
Speaker 1: from watching it was they had Bob Harper on there,

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Speaker 1: one of the original trainers. They didn't have Jillian Michaels.

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Speaker 1: And even while we were recording this, Jillian Michaels has

407
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Speaker 1: actually put the documentary on blast and come through with

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Speaker 1: receipts refuting a lot of the claims. She did decline

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Speaker 1: being there, or she just wanted to separate herself from

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Speaker 1: what she'd done. They didn't seem to understand the plart

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Speaker 1: they had played in making us all believe this cliche

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Speaker 1: that has been around for so long. And I think

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Speaker 1: the overriding feeling I had watching this was shame, shame

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Speaker 1: that I'd watched it and felt like it was okay.

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Speaker 1: Watched it with my parents was seen as a show.

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Speaker 1: But also you can feel the shame of those contestants

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Speaker 1: that they were so hopeful that this would work for them,

418
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Speaker 1: even though they were seeing how contestants were traded on

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Speaker 1: previous seasons, that they were willing to put themselves through

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Speaker 1: being shamed even more in the hope that it would work.

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Speaker 2: The thing is about is that we have moved on

422
00:21:29,861 --> 00:21:34,981
Speaker 2: from that, but we are still an intensely fat phobic culture,

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Speaker 2: as anybody knows. And it's interesting because our own Jillian

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Speaker 2: Michaels Michelle bridge Is has never outwardly condemned the Australian

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Speaker 2: Biggest Loser, and she still has a weight loss company

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Speaker 2: and it's noticeable that her messaging now is all strong,

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Speaker 2: not skinny. That's what we're all about these days, right,

428
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Speaker 2: But it's still the diet culture of it all is

429
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Speaker 2: still very sellable. And when I worked in magazines, diets

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Speaker 2: sold every time. You had to have a diet on

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Speaker 2: the cover, bullshit diet that someone had made up, usually,

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Speaker 2: but and celebrity body transformations. And now we see it

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Speaker 2: on Instagram and see it on skinny Talk, and that

434
00:22:11,542 --> 00:22:15,142
Speaker 2: it's just moved platforms. It's just morphed. And now it's

435
00:22:15,141 --> 00:22:18,221
Speaker 2: all about weight loss medication and we call it medical

436
00:22:18,222 --> 00:22:21,381
Speaker 2: weight loss, and it's all still there. It's just like

437
00:22:21,422 --> 00:22:22,262
Speaker 2: a shape shifter.

438
00:22:22,462 --> 00:22:24,861
Speaker 3: And I watched this and I think it's almost impossible

439
00:22:24,861 --> 00:22:27,302
Speaker 3: to watch this documentary not through the prism of weight

440
00:22:27,302 --> 00:22:30,942
Speaker 3: loss drugs, which have become quite quite ubiquitous. And I thought,

441
00:22:30,982 --> 00:22:34,181
Speaker 3: I wonder if the criticism of weight loss drugs is

442
00:22:34,262 --> 00:22:38,661
Speaker 3: partly to do with our strong belief that you ought

443
00:22:38,702 --> 00:22:41,341
Speaker 3: to be punished and that weight loss ought to be

444
00:22:41,422 --> 00:22:45,661
Speaker 3: on the other side of hard, hard work. It's just

445
00:22:45,702 --> 00:22:49,902
Speaker 3: colorI colories out exactly and some simplified version. I think

446
00:22:49,942 --> 00:22:53,862
Speaker 3: that anyone who knows anything about weight knows how deeply

447
00:22:53,942 --> 00:22:56,182
Speaker 3: deeply psychological it is.

448
00:22:56,581 --> 00:22:58,941
Speaker 4: But that show aims to prove it's simple.

449
00:22:59,101 --> 00:23:00,861
Speaker 3: All we have to do is this, and it lent

450
00:23:00,942 --> 00:23:04,861
Speaker 3: into what makes in Vert Coomma's great television, which is

451
00:23:04,901 --> 00:23:07,102
Speaker 3: it was visual. It was we saw the paint, we

452
00:23:07,141 --> 00:23:10,982
Speaker 3: saw the vomit, we saw the image of the punishment,

453
00:23:11,061 --> 00:23:13,022
Speaker 3: and then we saw the transformation at the end, it

454
00:23:13,061 --> 00:23:15,901
Speaker 3: was all visual, even though that is not what a

455
00:23:15,982 --> 00:23:19,782
Speaker 3: journey like that looks like for most people. In a moment,

456
00:23:20,022 --> 00:23:23,422
Speaker 3: We've got some helpful advice for the Productivity Commission.

457
00:23:27,141 --> 00:23:27,501
Speaker 4: Ladies.

458
00:23:27,502 --> 00:23:30,022
Speaker 3: While we sit at this round table, there is another

459
00:23:30,061 --> 00:23:32,902
Speaker 3: fancy around table happening in Canberra.

460
00:23:33,022 --> 00:23:34,141
Speaker 2: I bet their snacks are better.

461
00:23:35,742 --> 00:23:38,542
Speaker 4: I bet there's someone who comes takes their coffee orders.

462
00:23:38,101 --> 00:23:39,701
Speaker 1: And the cups are full. Yes, I.

463
00:23:44,262 --> 00:23:46,582
Speaker 4: Fall bullshit conditions. I've complaints.

464
00:23:47,422 --> 00:23:50,462
Speaker 3: Treasurer Jim Chalmers says the point of the three day

465
00:23:50,542 --> 00:23:53,622
Speaker 3: Economic Reform round table is to make our economy more

466
00:23:53,621 --> 00:23:54,941
Speaker 3: productive over time.

467
00:23:55,302 --> 00:23:57,141
Speaker 4: And guys, I have a confession.

468
00:23:58,022 --> 00:23:59,982
Speaker 3: I came in this morning and I said, friends, I

469
00:24:00,022 --> 00:24:01,341
Speaker 3: don't know what productivity is.

470
00:24:01,782 --> 00:24:02,341
Speaker 1: I don't know.

471
00:24:02,502 --> 00:24:03,422
Speaker 4: I keep reading it.

472
00:24:03,702 --> 00:24:05,582
Speaker 1: I'm glad you said it because I don't understand.

473
00:24:06,502 --> 00:24:07,661
Speaker 4: I'll tell you how it feels.

474
00:24:08,222 --> 00:24:08,422
Speaker 1: Right.

475
00:24:08,861 --> 00:24:11,341
Speaker 3: It feels like there's a meeting in Canberra right now

476
00:24:11,661 --> 00:24:14,902
Speaker 3: about how lazy we all are. And I, for one,

477
00:24:15,302 --> 00:24:18,782
Speaker 3: do not appreciate it. I know somewhere in my brain

478
00:24:18,821 --> 00:24:21,821
Speaker 3: that that's not what productivity means. But on behalf of

479
00:24:21,861 --> 00:24:24,621
Speaker 3: me and our listeners, Jim Charmers, we are doing our

480
00:24:24,661 --> 00:24:27,422
Speaker 3: bes we are, but actually trying really hard.

481
00:24:27,821 --> 00:24:29,782
Speaker 2: I think you're right. I think that is what's happening

482
00:24:29,782 --> 00:24:31,982
Speaker 2: in there. It's just like all just bitching about how

483
00:24:32,061 --> 00:24:34,622
Speaker 2: lazy we all are. And Gina ryan Hart's in there

484
00:24:34,661 --> 00:24:36,942
Speaker 2: and she's got a whip brack in and like it's

485
00:24:36,942 --> 00:24:39,422
Speaker 2: all just like get your asses up and work.

486
00:24:39,502 --> 00:24:41,581
Speaker 3: Yeah, it she feels like that, And like I didn't

487
00:24:41,581 --> 00:24:44,461
Speaker 3: want to say this, but a three day meeting, like

488
00:24:45,222 --> 00:24:46,981
Speaker 3: you know, who's not having a three day meeting with us?

489
00:24:47,182 --> 00:24:49,462
Speaker 4: Who's got time for three day meeting? Have been an

490
00:24:49,502 --> 00:24:50,422
Speaker 4: email exactly.

491
00:24:51,222 --> 00:24:54,061
Speaker 3: I googled productivity to try and save face because I

492
00:24:54,061 --> 00:24:55,502
Speaker 3: thought you can't go and say you don't know what

493
00:24:55,542 --> 00:24:58,861
Speaker 3: it means. And it said productivity means how good we

494
00:24:58,901 --> 00:25:02,181
Speaker 3: are as a nation at producing output, and factors that

495
00:25:02,262 --> 00:25:05,542
Speaker 3: impact productivity include tech improvements. So they always talk about

496
00:25:05,542 --> 00:25:07,742
Speaker 3: like AI, how we can make AI make us more

497
00:25:07,742 --> 00:25:11,022
Speaker 3: productive without putting in longer hours, economies of scale. I

498
00:25:11,022 --> 00:25:14,341
Speaker 3: don't really understand that scope, don't understand that workforce skills,

499
00:25:14,341 --> 00:25:15,902
Speaker 3: competitive pressures, la la, la la la.

500
00:25:15,942 --> 00:25:16,942
Speaker 4: This meeting sounds so boring.

501
00:25:16,942 --> 00:25:19,302
Speaker 2: I can't down god, and it's.

502
00:25:19,141 --> 00:25:23,621
Speaker 3: Three days, three days, Oh my god. So I figured that,

503
00:25:23,661 --> 00:25:26,901
Speaker 3: given we're also having a meeting, albeit in another state,

504
00:25:27,381 --> 00:25:31,341
Speaker 3: we'd come up with some ideas. Because we're being productive,

505
00:25:31,542 --> 00:25:34,182
Speaker 3: we could help. We work very, very very hard. We

506
00:25:34,262 --> 00:25:37,101
Speaker 3: make a lot of podcasts, which Charmers has not mentioned,

507
00:25:37,101 --> 00:25:38,782
Speaker 3: not even once, and he's found table.

508
00:25:38,782 --> 00:25:39,581
Speaker 4: You know he's productive.

509
00:25:39,861 --> 00:25:43,022
Speaker 3: Those bitches they do five episodes a week. We're working

510
00:25:43,101 --> 00:25:47,942
Speaker 3: right there, exactly exactly right. I'll start free diet coke

511
00:25:48,262 --> 00:25:51,422
Speaker 3: at three pm. I think as a nation it's great

512
00:25:51,422 --> 00:25:53,941
Speaker 3: for an afternoon pick me up. We know that not

513
00:25:54,022 --> 00:25:58,022
Speaker 3: great things sometimes happen after three pm, so I feel

514
00:25:58,061 --> 00:26:00,422
Speaker 3: as though we could just all kind of just get

515
00:26:00,462 --> 00:26:02,542
Speaker 3: that pick me up and just go through to the

516
00:26:02,621 --> 00:26:05,941
Speaker 3: end of the afternoon. Holly, you're wise used to manage people.

517
00:26:06,101 --> 00:26:07,542
Speaker 3: What did you do other than get out your whip?

518
00:26:08,782 --> 00:26:11,061
Speaker 2: I like you, I need a three pm pick Anyone

519
00:26:11,101 --> 00:26:12,661
Speaker 2: who's ever been in a meeting with me that goes

520
00:26:12,702 --> 00:26:15,422
Speaker 2: towards three pm? I get very twitchy about coffee. I'm

521
00:26:15,542 --> 00:26:18,382
Speaker 2: very twitchy about coffee, So I would like it implemented

522
00:26:18,422 --> 00:26:21,302
Speaker 2: that I need a coffee delivered to me at two

523
00:26:21,621 --> 00:26:24,262
Speaker 2: or I'm literally fall asleep in my day. But generally

524
00:26:24,302 --> 00:26:27,302
Speaker 2: I was thinking about this I think Albow maybe needs

525
00:26:27,302 --> 00:26:30,942
Speaker 2: to go further with his TikTok band because since I've yes,

526
00:26:31,462 --> 00:26:34,382
Speaker 2: he's banning it for people under sixty. But I can

527
00:26:34,462 --> 00:26:38,542
Speaker 2: only speak for myself. But since I've discovered gardening talk,

528
00:26:39,022 --> 00:26:44,101
Speaker 2: my productivity in my actual garden has decreased significantly. Maybe

529
00:26:44,462 --> 00:26:46,901
Speaker 2: the TikTok band does not go far enough. Yeah, I

530
00:26:46,901 --> 00:26:50,341
Speaker 2: think there's that. I think that single tasking should be outlawed,

531
00:26:50,381 --> 00:26:54,341
Speaker 2: particularly for midlife men who like to watch every iteration

532
00:26:54,422 --> 00:26:57,061
Speaker 2: of Star Wars on the couch on a Saturday afternoon, Like,

533
00:26:57,101 --> 00:27:00,502
Speaker 2: that's not my life? Is that your life? Like sitting

534
00:27:00,502 --> 00:27:02,061
Speaker 2: around not doing anything?

535
00:27:02,341 --> 00:27:05,782
Speaker 3: Maybe my dad finds time for on a Saturday afternoon

536
00:27:05,942 --> 00:27:09,141
Speaker 3: to watch all afternoon, and it's like, do something with

537
00:27:09,222 --> 00:27:09,661
Speaker 3: your hand.

538
00:27:11,022 --> 00:27:13,742
Speaker 1: Washing. I've never watched a single show without my hands

539
00:27:13,742 --> 00:27:14,822
Speaker 1: doing at least two other.

540
00:27:14,621 --> 00:27:19,742
Speaker 2: Times, he's not peak productivity when he's rewatching Rocky four,

541
00:27:20,542 --> 00:27:22,982
Speaker 2: banning bosses from saying can I have a quick word,

542
00:27:23,581 --> 00:27:26,461
Speaker 2: and then telling you about their weekends for twelve minutes

543
00:27:27,022 --> 00:27:29,422
Speaker 2: when you would really rather be talking about your weekend

544
00:27:29,462 --> 00:27:31,302
Speaker 2: with your work wife in the kitchen. These are just

545
00:27:31,341 --> 00:27:33,182
Speaker 2: some of my do you hey?

546
00:27:33,581 --> 00:27:35,302
Speaker 1: My first one? I think it'll be a crowdpleaser. I

547
00:27:35,341 --> 00:27:37,462
Speaker 1: think it'll get through straight away. We've got to bring

548
00:27:37,502 --> 00:27:41,141
Speaker 1: back siestas. Have we ever had them to bring?

549
00:27:41,141 --> 00:27:43,302
Speaker 4: How last is a siesta allowed.

550
00:27:42,942 --> 00:27:46,061
Speaker 1: For I would ideally like an hour, but I'll take

551
00:27:46,101 --> 00:27:49,302
Speaker 1: twenty minutes at around three pm or you two are

552
00:27:49,302 --> 00:27:51,102
Speaker 1: having your cokes here and your coffee. I just want

553
00:27:51,101 --> 00:27:51,502
Speaker 1: to lay.

554
00:27:51,381 --> 00:27:53,342
Speaker 2: Down for twenty minutes. A little bad under the day.

555
00:27:53,422 --> 00:27:55,581
Speaker 1: Yes, there is not a single mattress in this office,

556
00:27:55,742 --> 00:27:58,302
Speaker 1: and that's just absurd. I would love to have a

557
00:27:58,302 --> 00:28:01,742
Speaker 1: little kip. Yep, that's my first one. Second one maybe

558
00:28:01,782 --> 00:28:04,421
Speaker 1: a bit more controversial. Less toilets.

559
00:28:04,782 --> 00:28:07,782
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no more toilets. But I have things

560
00:28:07,782 --> 00:28:09,782
Speaker 2: to tell you about to I have never worked.

561
00:28:09,621 --> 00:28:11,982
Speaker 1: Faster than when I need to peek. If I need

562
00:28:12,022 --> 00:28:14,462
Speaker 1: to peek and can't go and pee, I will get

563
00:28:14,462 --> 00:28:15,782
Speaker 1: through so much. Don't you feel like you're in a

564
00:28:15,861 --> 00:28:16,542
Speaker 1: race against time?

565
00:28:16,621 --> 00:28:18,662
Speaker 4: Yess, that's such a good you know what. We all

566
00:28:18,661 --> 00:28:21,142
Speaker 4: need a little bit more urgency, yes, and.

567
00:28:21,101 --> 00:28:22,021
Speaker 2: That'll crank it up.

568
00:28:22,542 --> 00:28:22,742
Speaker 1: Oh.

569
00:28:22,782 --> 00:28:24,502
Speaker 4: I love that. There was suggestions.

570
00:28:24,542 --> 00:28:26,101
Speaker 3: I asked some people in the office and they said

571
00:28:26,101 --> 00:28:28,302
Speaker 3: that maybe a little electric shock from your mouth, And

572
00:28:28,302 --> 00:28:30,782
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, it's actually a torture method. And

573
00:28:30,821 --> 00:28:33,661
Speaker 3: then other people said Margarita on tap, and I was like, no,

574
00:28:33,742 --> 00:28:35,941
Speaker 3: you just want Margarita on tap. That's not going to

575
00:28:35,982 --> 00:28:37,181
Speaker 3: help with your activity.

576
00:28:37,621 --> 00:28:39,902
Speaker 1: Mouth tape. I could do with some mouth tape. I

577
00:28:39,982 --> 00:28:40,742
Speaker 1: yap a lot.

578
00:28:41,582 --> 00:28:44,302
Speaker 4: I also think mouthtape.

579
00:28:44,342 --> 00:28:46,262
Speaker 3: I have a lot of male friends that are talking

580
00:28:46,302 --> 00:28:47,982
Speaker 3: about the three hour podcast interviews.

581
00:28:48,022 --> 00:28:49,741
Speaker 4: They watch it work and they're like, oh, I just

582
00:28:49,822 --> 00:28:51,102
Speaker 4: have it up while I'm doing work.

583
00:28:51,462 --> 00:28:55,742
Speaker 2: Nah, No atap on Joe Rogan, Yes.

584
00:28:55,942 --> 00:28:58,742
Speaker 3: Exactly, maybe a little bit of a YouTube band there.

585
00:28:58,742 --> 00:29:01,022
Speaker 3: We go at work, along with your TikTok and your Instagram.

586
00:29:01,182 --> 00:29:03,222
Speaker 2: But you wouldn't remember this because you were still at school.

587
00:29:03,222 --> 00:29:05,742
Speaker 2: But when I first worked in offices, when social media

588
00:29:05,742 --> 00:29:07,862
Speaker 2: had been invented, and this was in magazines, when we

589
00:29:07,942 --> 00:29:10,822
Speaker 2: had to actually know about things on the world, our

590
00:29:10,902 --> 00:29:15,022
Speaker 2: computers were blocked from having Facebook on them between nine

591
00:29:15,102 --> 00:29:19,222
Speaker 2: and twelve and then one and six or whatever, because

592
00:29:19,582 --> 00:29:22,942
Speaker 2: you were not allowed because in those days it was like, oh, Facebook,

593
00:29:22,982 --> 00:29:25,782
Speaker 2: so tantalizing. What if I'd rather be talking to my

594
00:29:25,862 --> 00:29:29,542
Speaker 2: high school boyfriend doing my job and they'd be like no, no, no,

595
00:29:29,702 --> 00:29:33,582
Speaker 2: you would have missed some in this office in particular,

596
00:29:33,661 --> 00:29:35,702
Speaker 2: if we ban social well actually we couldn't do our jobs.

597
00:29:35,782 --> 00:29:38,022
Speaker 2: But if we ban social media during the work day.

598
00:29:38,062 --> 00:29:39,582
Speaker 4: I know bad things.

599
00:29:40,182 --> 00:29:42,822
Speaker 2: Speaking about toilets and office toilets in particular, I have

600
00:29:42,862 --> 00:29:46,181
Speaker 2: a really important question for the group. Yes, do you

601
00:29:46,222 --> 00:29:49,782
Speaker 2: have a favorite toilet in a line of six cubicles?

602
00:29:49,822 --> 00:29:53,742
Speaker 2: Because if you walk into the toilets, whether they're at

603
00:29:53,742 --> 00:29:55,622
Speaker 2: work or in another public space, and there are like

604
00:29:55,782 --> 00:29:59,462
Speaker 2: five toilets, six toilets, do you always choose the same one?

605
00:29:59,462 --> 00:30:00,582
Speaker 2: And which one do you choose?

606
00:30:00,702 --> 00:30:00,982
Speaker 1: Yes?

607
00:30:01,342 --> 00:30:05,542
Speaker 2: Which one the end? You are on track for your gender?

608
00:30:05,582 --> 00:30:07,261
Speaker 2: What about you? Jesse Stevens.

609
00:30:07,702 --> 00:30:10,382
Speaker 3: It depends on how much I need to wait. Sometimes

610
00:30:10,422 --> 00:30:11,741
Speaker 3: I really need to wear I don't get to the

611
00:30:11,862 --> 00:30:13,982
Speaker 3: end because so I go to the first one.

612
00:30:14,142 --> 00:30:16,982
Speaker 2: I've been thinking about this a lot, about which one

613
00:30:17,342 --> 00:30:21,302
Speaker 2: would be the best to use, right, Yeah, because in

614
00:30:21,342 --> 00:30:23,462
Speaker 2: that old office we had a private toilet.

615
00:30:23,661 --> 00:30:24,582
Speaker 4: Yeah, like one.

616
00:30:24,462 --> 00:30:25,502
Speaker 2: Toilet that was on its own.

617
00:30:25,502 --> 00:30:26,222
Speaker 4: It was really good.

618
00:30:26,302 --> 00:30:27,102
Speaker 2: Those are the days.

619
00:30:27,182 --> 00:30:30,342
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's real, that's what it was.

620
00:30:30,422 --> 00:30:33,502
Speaker 2: We don't have that anymore. We have a cubicle anyway. Statistically,

621
00:30:33,582 --> 00:30:35,501
Speaker 2: in a line of six toilets, the most popular one

622
00:30:35,542 --> 00:30:36,262
Speaker 2: is the middle one.

623
00:30:36,142 --> 00:30:39,022
Speaker 4: Always, right, Yeah, I'd probably go middle.

624
00:30:39,302 --> 00:30:42,221
Speaker 2: They have done studies where they see which ones go

625
00:30:42,302 --> 00:30:44,502
Speaker 2: through the most toilet paper in time, and it is

626
00:30:44,542 --> 00:30:47,021
Speaker 2: the middle one always. But there is a gender divide.

627
00:30:47,062 --> 00:30:50,262
Speaker 2: Women go to the end. But if you are worried

628
00:30:50,262 --> 00:30:53,661
Speaker 2: about hygiene, you should always pick the first because it

629
00:30:53,742 --> 00:30:55,902
Speaker 2: is it is the least us.

630
00:30:56,222 --> 00:30:58,181
Speaker 4: Oh, that is so interesting.

631
00:30:58,622 --> 00:31:01,342
Speaker 2: Do you have an emotional attachment to the cubicle you

632
00:31:01,342 --> 00:31:01,862
Speaker 2: always see?

633
00:31:01,862 --> 00:31:04,342
Speaker 1: I actually will revise my answer out and say that

634
00:31:04,422 --> 00:31:07,582
Speaker 1: sometimes I'll go from the second from the end, just

635
00:31:07,582 --> 00:31:09,741
Speaker 1: so you don't look like you're in there doing what

636
00:31:09,822 --> 00:31:11,502
Speaker 1: you don't want they want to think you're in there.

637
00:31:11,302 --> 00:31:14,421
Speaker 3: Doing I'm going to add just another point to it.

638
00:31:14,462 --> 00:31:17,542
Speaker 3: So I walk in and let's say, Stacy, you're in

639
00:31:17,582 --> 00:31:18,142
Speaker 3: the last one.

640
00:31:18,382 --> 00:31:18,622
Speaker 1: Yes.

641
00:31:18,902 --> 00:31:20,662
Speaker 4: And let's say, Holy you're in the first one.

642
00:31:20,782 --> 00:31:21,262
Speaker 1: Oh. Yeah.

643
00:31:21,462 --> 00:31:23,862
Speaker 3: You always go to the cubicle that is furthest from

644
00:31:23,902 --> 00:31:25,862
Speaker 3: the other people in it out of respect.

645
00:31:25,622 --> 00:31:30,181
Speaker 2: Kind of psychost The next year, when there are three free.

646
00:31:31,182 --> 00:31:32,741
Speaker 3: I hear them go in and I'm like, can we

647
00:31:32,782 --> 00:31:34,221
Speaker 3: just get a little bit of privacy? And then the

648
00:31:34,222 --> 00:31:39,822
Speaker 3: conversation continues, be like, how's your day been? Much? Can

649
00:31:39,862 --> 00:31:42,622
Speaker 3: I add another fun toilet fact. I had a friend

650
00:31:42,661 --> 00:31:45,142
Speaker 3: who went to Glastonbury recently. Did you know that the

651
00:31:45,182 --> 00:31:48,342
Speaker 3: toilets are glaston Brie They only really cover your private

652
00:31:48,342 --> 00:31:50,941
Speaker 3: parts and the rest of you is on full display

653
00:31:51,302 --> 00:31:53,742
Speaker 3: to discourage drug use because a lot.

654
00:31:53,661 --> 00:31:54,462
Speaker 2: Of people working.

655
00:31:57,782 --> 00:32:00,181
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that people aren't going and snorting and sniffing

656
00:32:00,262 --> 00:32:01,862
Speaker 3: and whatever. Can you imagine though you're going to the

657
00:32:01,902 --> 00:32:04,062
Speaker 3: toilet and I'm just looking in the eye.

658
00:32:04,342 --> 00:32:06,941
Speaker 1: I would not be peeing for five days as a

659
00:32:06,942 --> 00:32:09,862
Speaker 1: tall person. That is so much of my body to

660
00:32:09,982 --> 00:32:11,981
Speaker 1: the world of you.

661
00:32:13,222 --> 00:32:15,862
Speaker 2: After the break, the biggest self help grew in the

662
00:32:15,902 --> 00:32:20,302
Speaker 2: world wants had a complete meltdown about kitchen cabinet and

663
00:32:20,382 --> 00:32:22,142
Speaker 2: there is a life lesson in this.

664
00:32:23,022 --> 00:32:26,222
Speaker 3: Every Tuesday and Thursday we drop new segments of mummy

665
00:32:26,262 --> 00:32:29,622
Speaker 3: AA out Loud just for Mummy A subscribers. Follow the

666
00:32:29,661 --> 00:32:31,702
Speaker 3: link in the show notes to get your daily dose

667
00:32:31,702 --> 00:32:34,022
Speaker 3: of out Loud And a big thank you to all

668
00:32:34,102 --> 00:32:35,262
Speaker 3: our current subscribers.

669
00:32:40,302 --> 00:32:42,822
Speaker 2: Friends. I don't think I need to introduce mel Robins

670
00:32:42,862 --> 00:32:45,181
Speaker 2: to you at this moment, do I Like she is

671
00:32:45,661 --> 00:32:48,181
Speaker 2: pretty ubiquitous in the culture. She is the biggest self

672
00:32:48,182 --> 00:32:50,022
Speaker 2: help guru in the world right now. She is the

673
00:32:50,062 --> 00:32:53,142
Speaker 2: creator of the Let Them Theory, She has the number

674
00:32:53,142 --> 00:32:55,981
Speaker 2: one podcast, She's everywhere, and this week she was on

675
00:32:56,062 --> 00:32:59,102
Speaker 2: No Filter with our very own Kate Langbrook. She said,

676
00:32:59,142 --> 00:33:01,622
Speaker 2: lots of stuff, It was all very useful, but there's

677
00:33:01,661 --> 00:33:04,302
Speaker 2: one thing I want to talk about, and it is

678
00:33:04,382 --> 00:33:07,862
Speaker 2: kitchen cabinets. Take it away, my Robins jealous.

679
00:33:07,942 --> 00:33:13,221
Speaker 5: Oh my god, I literally, like, I literally wanted to die. Like,

680
00:33:13,262 --> 00:33:16,021
Speaker 5: have you ever had a friend who all of a

681
00:33:16,062 --> 00:33:19,181
Speaker 5: sudden they moved to like the fancy your town, or

682
00:33:19,262 --> 00:33:22,302
Speaker 5: they move from renting an apartment to this like brownstone

683
00:33:22,302 --> 00:33:24,622
Speaker 5: that they buy, and then they invite you over for dinner,

684
00:33:25,422 --> 00:33:28,822
Speaker 5: and as you're driving up the long driveway, you're thinking.

685
00:33:28,582 --> 00:33:30,102
Speaker 1: How the hell do they have this much money?

686
00:33:30,822 --> 00:33:32,741
Speaker 5: And then they open up the door and you're happy

687
00:33:32,782 --> 00:33:35,102
Speaker 5: for your friend because your friend works hard and your

688
00:33:35,102 --> 00:33:37,342
Speaker 5: friend deserves to be happy, but you're just not happy

689
00:33:37,382 --> 00:33:41,382
Speaker 5: for yourself because as you're gripping the wine glass and

690
00:33:41,422 --> 00:33:45,702
Speaker 5: you're grinning your teeth trying to smile Thatt like freak smile,

691
00:33:46,302 --> 00:33:51,142
Speaker 5: and every single corner of their house looks like a

692
00:33:51,262 --> 00:33:55,421
Speaker 5: display on Pinterest. And then you turn the corner and

693
00:33:55,702 --> 00:34:00,022
Speaker 5: there is your dream kitchen. And she's got the white

694
00:34:00,062 --> 00:34:04,102
Speaker 5: cab that's and the marble countertops, and you're like, you bitch,

695
00:34:04,382 --> 00:34:06,822
Speaker 5: I shouldn't have shown you by Pinterest boards.

696
00:34:07,262 --> 00:34:08,462
Speaker 4: You stole my kitchen.

697
00:34:09,942 --> 00:34:12,502
Speaker 5: And then you're and you literally, you know if you're

698
00:34:12,542 --> 00:34:15,462
Speaker 5: anything like me at the time, because this happened to me,

699
00:34:15,542 --> 00:34:20,062
Speaker 5: this particular story, when we're still really struggling financially, you

700
00:34:20,221 --> 00:34:23,622
Speaker 5: hold it together, and then when you get in the

701
00:34:23,741 --> 00:34:27,821
Speaker 5: car and you go to drive away, you turn to

702
00:34:27,982 --> 00:34:32,022
Speaker 5: your poor partner and you're like, why couldn't you have

703
00:34:32,142 --> 00:34:35,142
Speaker 5: been in finance? Why did you have to be a

704
00:34:35,221 --> 00:34:39,062
Speaker 5: nice person, Why couldn't you be funny like you just

705
00:34:39,221 --> 00:34:41,741
Speaker 5: like aim it at them? Oh my god, it was

706
00:34:41,822 --> 00:34:42,661
Speaker 5: so bad.

707
00:34:42,701 --> 00:34:46,701
Speaker 2: So champagne problems. Right, we could say fancy houses and

708
00:34:46,781 --> 00:34:50,822
Speaker 2: kitchen renovations are not everybody's jealousy trigger. But what Robins

709
00:34:50,862 --> 00:34:53,861
Speaker 2: went on to say about jealousy, which was that for

710
00:34:53,982 --> 00:34:57,102
Speaker 2: her at the time, it was a motivator that made

711
00:34:57,102 --> 00:34:59,861
Speaker 2: her want to own her own damn kitchen. And we

712
00:34:59,902 --> 00:35:02,262
Speaker 2: can only assume that now she's worth tens of millions

713
00:35:02,302 --> 00:35:05,582
Speaker 2: of dollars, her cabinets are pretty specky. But she also

714
00:35:05,622 --> 00:35:08,622
Speaker 2: went on to say that you only ever envy things

715
00:35:08,661 --> 00:35:11,821
Speaker 2: you really really want, and that's why sometimes listening to

716
00:35:11,902 --> 00:35:14,582
Speaker 2: your jealousy is a very good way to measure what

717
00:35:14,701 --> 00:35:17,622
Speaker 2: matters to you. She said, for example, she's not jealous

718
00:35:17,661 --> 00:35:20,301
Speaker 2: of the dude with a yellow Lamborghini because she's genuinely

719
00:35:20,342 --> 00:35:23,062
Speaker 2: not interested in having a yellow Lamborghini, even if you've

720
00:35:23,062 --> 00:35:25,142
Speaker 2: got all the money in the world. And then she said,

721
00:35:25,181 --> 00:35:27,942
Speaker 2: you know, there's no finite number of fancy kitchens, podcasts,

722
00:35:27,942 --> 00:35:30,261
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera, And she did her whole very

723
00:35:30,342 --> 00:35:32,181
Speaker 2: mele robins go out and get it, you know, go

724
00:35:32,221 --> 00:35:34,062
Speaker 2: out and work for it, which ignores a lot of

725
00:35:34,862 --> 00:35:38,102
Speaker 2: very deep seen in structural inequalities that we won't get

726
00:35:38,102 --> 00:35:41,622
Speaker 2: into today. That's for another time. But what it did

727
00:35:41,661 --> 00:35:43,821
Speaker 2: make me want to ask is what are you too

728
00:35:43,942 --> 00:35:47,701
Speaker 2: jealous of? And what does it tell you about what

729
00:35:47,902 --> 00:35:48,582
Speaker 2: matters to you.

730
00:35:49,261 --> 00:35:53,181
Speaker 1: I am jealous of people who counter on the weekends. Yeah,

731
00:35:53,221 --> 00:35:55,542
Speaker 1: I am jealous of people who don't have bags under

732
00:35:55,542 --> 00:35:59,022
Speaker 1: their eyes. I am jealous of people who can not

733
00:35:59,302 --> 00:36:01,542
Speaker 1: tuck their shirt in and look cool because I still

734
00:36:01,582 --> 00:36:04,981
Speaker 1: have to do the millennial tough. Yeah. Yeah, Like there's

735
00:36:05,062 --> 00:36:06,941
Speaker 1: lots of things that I would like.

736
00:36:07,542 --> 00:36:11,062
Speaker 2: So those first things. Also that you're jealous of people

737
00:36:11,102 --> 00:36:13,181
Speaker 2: who have more leisure time than you because you're in it.

738
00:36:13,261 --> 00:36:14,421
Speaker 2: You've got a young child.

739
00:36:14,462 --> 00:36:17,382
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, that's right, and in the early motherhood season.

740
00:36:17,422 --> 00:36:19,181
Speaker 1: And I think that is the thing that mel is

741
00:36:19,181 --> 00:36:22,421
Speaker 1: failing to realize, is that sometimes you're jealous of things

742
00:36:22,422 --> 00:36:24,462
Speaker 1: you can't get, and they might be things you already

743
00:36:24,502 --> 00:36:26,821
Speaker 1: had once upon a time. What about you, Yes, do

744
00:36:26,862 --> 00:36:27,301
Speaker 1: you feel that?

745
00:36:27,342 --> 00:36:30,062
Speaker 3: Do you feel envy for like things that you once

746
00:36:30,142 --> 00:36:31,301
Speaker 3: had that you don't have any more?

747
00:36:31,822 --> 00:36:34,421
Speaker 1: Yes, And I think it doesn't mean that couldn't come

748
00:36:34,462 --> 00:36:37,301
Speaker 1: back to me, But I definitely do feel jealousy when

749
00:36:37,302 --> 00:36:39,701
Speaker 1: I look at people on the European holidays or when

750
00:36:39,741 --> 00:36:41,701
Speaker 1: they're hiking the in Contrail. I don't want to hike

751
00:36:41,781 --> 00:36:43,741
Speaker 1: the in Contrail, but I'd like the option to go

752
00:36:43,781 --> 00:36:46,382
Speaker 1: and hike the in Contrail this week if I want to. So,

753
00:36:46,462 --> 00:36:50,062
Speaker 1: I definitely do feel like I am jealous of the

754
00:36:50,181 --> 00:36:52,781
Speaker 1: freedom that I knew once that you don't have as

755
00:36:52,862 --> 00:36:55,822
Speaker 1: much when you're raising little kids. And I wouldn't change

756
00:36:55,822 --> 00:36:57,381
Speaker 1: the fact that I don't have that as much now

757
00:36:57,382 --> 00:37:00,862
Speaker 1: because I love raising my little kid, but it definitely

758
00:37:00,902 --> 00:37:03,662
Speaker 1: is something that no amount of jealousy and no amount

759
00:37:03,661 --> 00:37:05,821
Speaker 1: of inspiration is going to get back for me at

760
00:37:05,862 --> 00:37:09,701
Speaker 1: this moment. I so deeply related to the example that

761
00:37:09,741 --> 00:37:13,262
Speaker 1: Mel used because I had this exact circumstance with friends.

762
00:37:13,542 --> 00:37:15,982
Speaker 1: We went to our friend's beautiful new house that they'd built.

763
00:37:15,982 --> 00:37:18,421
Speaker 1: They've worked very hard to earn this house. I would

764
00:37:18,422 --> 00:37:20,462
Speaker 1: have thought that I would be perfectly fine and not

765
00:37:20,542 --> 00:37:23,102
Speaker 1: at all jealous, and when I got in the car,

766
00:37:23,142 --> 00:37:26,221
Speaker 1: I completely crushed out after we saw how beautiful their

767
00:37:26,261 --> 00:37:29,622
Speaker 1: house was, to my husband saying, we're both so stupid

768
00:37:29,661 --> 00:37:32,622
Speaker 1: for marrying for love Black why did we marry each other.

769
00:37:32,741 --> 00:37:35,462
Speaker 1: We're both journalists. We're never going to have that house.

770
00:37:35,902 --> 00:37:38,542
Speaker 1: And I hated myself for that, to the point where

771
00:37:38,542 --> 00:37:40,502
Speaker 1: my best friend, who had also been at the house,

772
00:37:40,862 --> 00:37:43,342
Speaker 1: sent me a text knows me very well and said,

773
00:37:43,542 --> 00:37:46,862
Speaker 1: I know you're crushing out about that house. Don't spiral.

774
00:37:47,302 --> 00:37:49,781
Speaker 1: It's okay. You will get to that if that's what

775
00:37:49,862 --> 00:37:52,221
Speaker 1: you want. And I think that's kind of the floor

776
00:37:52,261 --> 00:37:55,142
Speaker 1: in Mel's argument is that some of us realistically might

777
00:37:55,221 --> 00:37:58,222
Speaker 1: not get to that. I'm not going to get that house,

778
00:37:58,302 --> 00:38:01,381
Speaker 1: and that's okay, but that does clarify Okay, well, that's

779
00:38:01,382 --> 00:38:04,941
Speaker 1: something I can be working towards. Maybe I do want

780
00:38:04,982 --> 00:38:07,542
Speaker 1: the fancy white cabinets like Mel Robbins does.

781
00:38:07,902 --> 00:38:11,341
Speaker 3: I have some really specific exams pools of jealousy, and

782
00:38:11,462 --> 00:38:13,542
Speaker 3: I'm with you about the European Holiday. I think that

783
00:38:13,582 --> 00:38:17,462
Speaker 3: there's something about that image at the moment that feels

784
00:38:17,542 --> 00:38:21,301
Speaker 3: like that's not something I'm going to experience in the

785
00:38:21,302 --> 00:38:23,222
Speaker 3: way I want to experience it for a lot of years.

786
00:38:23,622 --> 00:38:26,142
Speaker 3: And that's really hard to see. And I do feel

787
00:38:26,181 --> 00:38:28,821
Speaker 3: jealous because I want that. But there was I think

788
00:38:28,862 --> 00:38:30,542
Speaker 3: just in the last forty eight hours, I thought, you know,

789
00:38:30,661 --> 00:38:33,942
Speaker 3: Zara previously worked on Man and she firstly is in Europe.

790
00:38:34,102 --> 00:38:37,062
Speaker 3: So I went, oh, Caramel, so she's in Europe. But

791
00:38:37,422 --> 00:38:40,941
Speaker 3: she posted this carousel of what she wore in Europe. Oh,

792
00:38:42,181 --> 00:38:46,221
Speaker 3: outfits worse stunning, And I looked at it and I went, oh,

793
00:38:46,582 --> 00:38:48,502
Speaker 3: I can feel the jealousy rising. And then I went,

794
00:38:48,942 --> 00:38:51,021
Speaker 3: Jesse Stevens, I thought, you didn't care.

795
00:38:51,382 --> 00:38:52,622
Speaker 2: That's what I was gonna say.

796
00:38:52,822 --> 00:38:56,142
Speaker 3: I thought I didn't care about and so I then went,

797
00:38:56,781 --> 00:38:58,662
Speaker 3: why am I feeling jealous right now? And I thought,

798
00:38:58,982 --> 00:39:01,582
Speaker 3: I'm feeling jealous because of how good it must feel

799
00:39:01,781 --> 00:39:05,022
Speaker 3: to put an outfit together like that, know how great

800
00:39:05,022 --> 00:39:06,902
Speaker 3: it looks, and walk out into the world, and I

801
00:39:06,942 --> 00:39:09,462
Speaker 3: went confidence. There was something about that that I went into.

802
00:39:09,781 --> 00:39:12,582
Speaker 4: Maybe maybe you do need to think more about clothes,

803
00:39:12,622 --> 00:39:15,261
Speaker 4: and maybe you'd feel a bit happier if you look

804
00:39:15,422 --> 00:39:15,701
Speaker 4: like that.

805
00:39:15,781 --> 00:39:18,022
Speaker 1: Maybe we need to stop wearing the shirt every day

806
00:39:18,502 --> 00:39:19,062
Speaker 1: in some effort.

807
00:39:19,261 --> 00:39:22,301
Speaker 2: That is interesting because maybe it's the confidence to know

808
00:39:23,261 --> 00:39:23,781
Speaker 2: because if.

809
00:39:24,102 --> 00:39:27,062
Speaker 3: We're jealous of her skill at putting together those outdoors,

810
00:39:27,102 --> 00:39:28,901
Speaker 3: but I know I don't have it and I don't

811
00:39:28,942 --> 00:39:29,542
Speaker 3: know how to get it.

812
00:39:29,622 --> 00:39:32,182
Speaker 2: If we're working on the theory that your jealousy tells

813
00:39:32,181 --> 00:39:34,862
Speaker 2: you something about where you should be or you should

814
00:39:34,862 --> 00:39:38,862
Speaker 2: be putting your energy, that tays to me, that's about confidence.

815
00:39:39,342 --> 00:39:39,781
Speaker 4: I think so.

816
00:39:39,942 --> 00:39:43,421
Speaker 3: And I also wondered I actually disagree with a point

817
00:39:43,422 --> 00:39:46,502
Speaker 3: of mel Robbins's theory because there is a man in

818
00:39:46,502 --> 00:39:49,582
Speaker 3: my life that I know who is very, very values

819
00:39:49,661 --> 00:39:51,982
Speaker 3: driven and doesn't care about money. That's been a feature

820
00:39:52,022 --> 00:39:54,182
Speaker 3: of his personality. Doesn't care about money, and every choice

821
00:39:54,221 --> 00:39:57,542
Speaker 3: from job to house to whatever, he just goes.

822
00:39:57,902 --> 00:39:58,782
Speaker 4: That's not what I value.

823
00:39:58,822 --> 00:40:00,542
Speaker 3: These are my values. I don't care about money. He

824
00:40:00,622 --> 00:40:02,741
Speaker 3: is the first person to notice the fancy car. He's

825
00:40:02,781 --> 00:40:05,622
Speaker 3: the first person to notice the house that someone's moved into.

826
00:40:05,822 --> 00:40:08,062
Speaker 2: But noticing isn't the same as being envious of it.

827
00:40:08,542 --> 00:40:11,781
Speaker 3: The way he taught has made me feel like, why

828
00:40:11,822 --> 00:40:13,981
Speaker 3: are you so obsessed with these things if you don't

829
00:40:14,022 --> 00:40:17,382
Speaker 3: want them? And I was speaking to another friend recently

830
00:40:17,422 --> 00:40:19,661
Speaker 3: and we said, I wonder sometimes if we're all just

831
00:40:19,701 --> 00:40:24,462
Speaker 3: so cognizant of markers of success, and we go, I

832
00:40:24,502 --> 00:40:27,261
Speaker 3: don't necessarily want that. But if you don't interrogate your

833
00:40:27,302 --> 00:40:31,301
Speaker 3: jealousy enough, sometimes I think you get confused and you

834
00:40:31,382 --> 00:40:33,301
Speaker 3: fixate on those things. I reckon if this guy sat

835
00:40:33,302 --> 00:40:36,062
Speaker 3: down with himself and went, why am I jealous? Why

836
00:40:36,062 --> 00:40:39,422
Speaker 3: am I noticing this? Then he'd go, you actually don't

837
00:40:39,462 --> 00:40:41,741
Speaker 3: want it. You're just noticing it because you know it's

838
00:40:41,781 --> 00:40:44,502
Speaker 3: what society values. I think I've had the same thing,

839
00:40:44,542 --> 00:40:47,342
Speaker 3: probably with beauty, with looking at women that are stunning

840
00:40:47,862 --> 00:40:49,502
Speaker 3: and I go, I wish my face looked like that.

841
00:40:49,622 --> 00:40:52,462
Speaker 3: I wish it was easier, Like she doesn't even have

842
00:40:52,542 --> 00:40:54,022
Speaker 3: to wear makeup, and look at her beautiful hair, and

843
00:40:54,022 --> 00:40:56,341
Speaker 3: then you kind of drill down, you go, it's not

844
00:40:56,382 --> 00:40:58,022
Speaker 3: what I want, and you're able to kind of leave

845
00:40:58,062 --> 00:41:00,662
Speaker 3: it and move forward. I think that happens as your age, Holly,

846
00:41:00,701 --> 00:41:01,622
Speaker 3: what do you feel jealous?

847
00:41:01,661 --> 00:41:04,502
Speaker 2: I think that's true. I think you can learn to

848
00:41:04,502 --> 00:41:06,781
Speaker 2: deal with I think some of us are more prone

849
00:41:06,781 --> 00:41:09,821
Speaker 2: to jealousy than others, right, And I am not very

850
00:41:09,862 --> 00:41:13,301
Speaker 2: jealous person in general. And I've spoken about this on

851
00:41:13,342 --> 00:41:16,701
Speaker 2: the podcast before, and Jesse knows this story. But a

852
00:41:16,741 --> 00:41:22,462
Speaker 2: few years ago I was absolutely devastated by jealousy towards you, right,

853
00:41:22,582 --> 00:41:26,662
Speaker 2: remember why it was when Jesse sold her first book

854
00:41:26,982 --> 00:41:27,622
Speaker 2: in America.

855
00:41:27,942 --> 00:41:30,261
Speaker 3: I think that Holly started liking me again when my

856
00:41:30,302 --> 00:41:31,221
Speaker 3: second book did not.

857
00:41:33,181 --> 00:41:34,021
Speaker 4: That is not true.

858
00:41:34,062 --> 00:41:38,301
Speaker 2: It's great, I promised that isn't true. What it was

859
00:41:38,781 --> 00:41:41,942
Speaker 2: was I go around my life going, I'm not a

860
00:41:41,982 --> 00:41:44,982
Speaker 2: jealous person. I'm happy for other people's successes, right, like,

861
00:41:45,062 --> 00:41:48,062
Speaker 2: and generally speaking, that is true, right, I'm not. I

862
00:41:48,062 --> 00:41:50,942
Speaker 2: don't tie myself up with it. So I was really

863
00:41:51,142 --> 00:41:54,261
Speaker 2: flawed by this feeling I had at that time. It

864
00:41:54,302 --> 00:41:56,622
Speaker 2: was Jesse's first book and it was very successful. And

865
00:41:56,862 --> 00:41:58,221
Speaker 2: the thing that was funny, and we have told this

866
00:41:58,261 --> 00:42:00,342
Speaker 2: story before, so bear with me, long time out louders,

867
00:42:00,661 --> 00:42:02,461
Speaker 2: but the thing that was really funny for me and

868
00:42:02,582 --> 00:42:04,742
Speaker 2: I is that we were giving Jesse all this advice

869
00:42:04,862 --> 00:42:07,062
Speaker 2: about our first book, and we were like, keep your

870
00:42:07,102 --> 00:42:12,382
Speaker 2: expectations low. Nobody makes any money writing books and you

871
00:42:12,502 --> 00:42:15,742
Speaker 2: probably won't sell very much and your advance wab me whatever,

872
00:42:16,181 --> 00:42:18,861
Speaker 2: and like we were being like the wise Aunties, right,

873
00:42:19,382 --> 00:42:23,261
Speaker 2: and then Jesse's brilliant Heartsick, which is genuinely brilliant and

874
00:42:23,302 --> 00:42:25,342
Speaker 2: you only had to read it to be like flawed

875
00:42:25,342 --> 00:42:28,862
Speaker 2: by how clever and smart and beautiful it was. But anyway,

876
00:42:29,422 --> 00:42:34,062
Speaker 2: was the subject of a bidding war in the US

877
00:42:34,181 --> 00:42:38,382
Speaker 2: changed in anything. Me and me were like, oh okay.

878
00:42:38,781 --> 00:42:41,102
Speaker 2: But the thing that surprised me, and again I've told

879
00:42:41,142 --> 00:42:43,622
Speaker 2: Jesse this before, so it's not like is that I

880
00:42:43,781 --> 00:42:46,942
Speaker 2: was like, I literally couldn't sleep, like I was consumed

881
00:42:46,982 --> 00:42:49,102
Speaker 2: by it. And it really knocked me around because it's

882
00:42:49,181 --> 00:42:52,462
Speaker 2: not what I'm like right usually at all. And so

883
00:42:52,661 --> 00:42:55,301
Speaker 2: I had to interrogate it, and we talked about it,

884
00:42:55,342 --> 00:42:57,741
Speaker 2: and I owned up to it and everything. And the

885
00:42:57,781 --> 00:43:00,582
Speaker 2: thing is, I have genuinely moved past that, like I

886
00:43:00,741 --> 00:43:03,821
Speaker 2: genuinely have like I have no jealous feelings towards Jesse

887
00:43:04,022 --> 00:43:05,781
Speaker 2: or and I've got I'm friends with lots of very

888
00:43:05,822 --> 00:43:08,102
Speaker 2: successful authors or I know that makes me sound very

889
00:43:08,181 --> 00:43:11,342
Speaker 2: like that. I know, I know lots of successful authors.

890
00:43:11,382 --> 00:43:13,502
Speaker 2: I've not caught up with jealousy about with them, about

891
00:43:13,502 --> 00:43:15,502
Speaker 2: like Sally Hepworth, who's a friend of ours, who is

892
00:43:16,022 --> 00:43:18,782
Speaker 2: enormously successful New York Times bestseller and all those things.

893
00:43:19,302 --> 00:43:22,821
Speaker 2: I've worked through it. But what that taught me was

894
00:43:22,862 --> 00:43:26,622
Speaker 2: it was a very deep wake up about the recognition

895
00:43:27,142 --> 00:43:30,941
Speaker 2: and success that I clearly really wanted. Yeah, where I

896
00:43:31,102 --> 00:43:33,142
Speaker 2: was very much kind of going at that time in

897
00:43:33,142 --> 00:43:36,062
Speaker 2: my life, well, I'm just happy to be here. And

898
00:43:36,102 --> 00:43:38,422
Speaker 2: I've always sort of told myself that I'm just happy

899
00:43:38,462 --> 00:43:41,462
Speaker 2: to be here. And clearly there was something about that

900
00:43:41,502 --> 00:43:45,381
Speaker 2: moment that really rocked me on the inside. Maybe your baby,

901
00:43:45,422 --> 00:43:47,701
Speaker 2: you're not just happy to be here, you want that,

902
00:43:48,102 --> 00:43:50,862
Speaker 2: and that's okay, Like it's okay to want that because

903
00:43:51,062 --> 00:43:53,062
Speaker 2: and mel Robbins, even though, as I said, I think

904
00:43:53,142 --> 00:43:56,542
Speaker 2: she's very much oversimplifying the idea that anyone can get

905
00:43:56,542 --> 00:43:58,742
Speaker 2: what they want and all that it's nonsense, it's not true.

906
00:43:59,142 --> 00:44:02,422
Speaker 2: But it is true that Jesse's success or anyone else's

907
00:44:02,462 --> 00:44:04,902
Speaker 2: success does not take away from mine. And that is

908
00:44:04,942 --> 00:44:08,502
Speaker 2: a lesson that sounds like bullshit, but when you actually

909
00:44:08,582 --> 00:44:11,661
Speaker 2: really learn it. It's true there is not a finite

910
00:44:11,741 --> 00:44:15,422
Speaker 2: number of successful books or whatever it might be. So

911
00:44:15,502 --> 00:44:17,701
Speaker 2: I think I have learned a lot about jealousy. But

912
00:44:17,741 --> 00:44:19,661
Speaker 2: I think it's true that it points you where two

913
00:44:19,661 --> 00:44:22,902
Speaker 2: things that really matter at the moment. For example, definitely

914
00:44:22,942 --> 00:44:25,341
Speaker 2: jealous of people with financial security. It's not about big

915
00:44:25,342 --> 00:44:27,701
Speaker 2: houses and cars. It's because I'm at the point in

916
00:44:27,741 --> 00:44:29,582
Speaker 2: my life where I feel like I can see a

917
00:44:29,622 --> 00:44:32,102
Speaker 2: finite number of earning years ahead of me, and like

918
00:44:32,142 --> 00:44:34,622
Speaker 2: everyone else in Australia and the world, you're likeck, how

919
00:44:34,661 --> 00:44:39,022
Speaker 2: do I do the rest of my life with this mortgage? Still? Like,

920
00:44:39,142 --> 00:44:41,661
Speaker 2: so when I see people, that brings out that the

921
00:44:41,741 --> 00:44:43,741
Speaker 2: voice in you that's like must be nice, there must

922
00:44:43,781 --> 00:44:45,902
Speaker 2: be nice voice comes out for me when I'm like,

923
00:44:45,982 --> 00:44:47,102
Speaker 2: you don't have to worry about that.

924
00:44:47,261 --> 00:44:48,702
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've definitely and that's real.

925
00:44:49,422 --> 00:44:51,781
Speaker 2: And I'm also jealous of people whose parents because again

926
00:44:51,822 --> 00:44:53,301
Speaker 2: it's all about your phase of life the same way,

927
00:44:53,382 --> 00:44:56,102
Speaker 2: who are are parents who are healthy and available to them?

928
00:44:56,142 --> 00:44:57,181
Speaker 4: Like I definitely have that.

929
00:44:57,261 --> 00:45:00,461
Speaker 2: So I think it is interesting. I think it tells

930
00:45:00,502 --> 00:45:03,421
Speaker 2: you a lot about your life stage, but also can

931
00:45:03,502 --> 00:45:05,941
Speaker 2: be a real like not a motivator in like, I'm

932
00:45:05,942 --> 00:45:07,102
Speaker 2: going to go out there and crush you know.

933
00:45:07,342 --> 00:45:10,301
Speaker 3: I think it's clarifying. It's really clarifying to go, this

934
00:45:10,342 --> 00:45:12,341
Speaker 3: is what's coming up. I think that at that stage, too,

935
00:45:12,542 --> 00:45:16,261
Speaker 3: you were suppressing your competitiveness. I've always thought you're competitive,

936
00:45:16,302 --> 00:45:19,181
Speaker 3: but there's something about your upbringing or something where you

937
00:45:19,221 --> 00:45:21,982
Speaker 3: don't I don't declare, you don't lean into it, and

938
00:45:22,022 --> 00:45:25,222
Speaker 3: it's like you're allowed to feel that. And I remember

939
00:45:25,221 --> 00:45:27,901
Speaker 3: seeing an image of Elizabeth Day, the podcaster, in front

940
00:45:27,902 --> 00:45:30,622
Speaker 3: of a big billboard of a podcast, and I was like, well, I.

941
00:45:30,582 --> 00:45:31,782
Speaker 1: Want a billboard.

942
00:45:32,382 --> 00:45:34,502
Speaker 3: You know. You just have these moments where you're like

943
00:45:34,661 --> 00:45:37,261
Speaker 3: and I think that not suppressing that, probably saying it

944
00:45:37,302 --> 00:45:40,142
Speaker 3: out loud is really good for you and means that

945
00:45:40,142 --> 00:45:40,942
Speaker 3: you're not resenting.

946
00:45:41,022 --> 00:45:43,902
Speaker 4: I mean. Another example of jealousy actually would be around fertility.

947
00:45:43,942 --> 00:45:44,462
Speaker 4: I've had that.

948
00:45:44,822 --> 00:45:48,542
Speaker 3: Enormously over the last period of my life, where you

949
00:45:48,582 --> 00:45:52,662
Speaker 3: feel as though you desperately want a baby and someone

950
00:45:52,741 --> 00:45:55,701
Speaker 3: posts it they're pregnant, and it is like an attack

951
00:45:55,862 --> 00:45:57,661
Speaker 3: and you know that it's not and you know that

952
00:45:57,661 --> 00:46:00,901
Speaker 3: that jealousy won't exist in five years or ten years

953
00:46:00,982 --> 00:46:04,062
Speaker 3: or whatever. But in the moment you feel it, and

954
00:46:04,062 --> 00:46:04,941
Speaker 3: that's exactly it.

955
00:46:04,862 --> 00:46:05,341
Speaker 2: That you go.

956
00:46:05,502 --> 00:46:07,942
Speaker 4: I want that to be my announcement, and that's like

957
00:46:07,982 --> 00:46:09,702
Speaker 4: a deeply human thing.

958
00:46:09,741 --> 00:46:12,582
Speaker 2: I think you'll be happy to hear that. Kate pointed

959
00:46:12,622 --> 00:46:15,661
Speaker 2: out to mel As, I'm sure like lots of people

960
00:46:15,661 --> 00:46:17,181
Speaker 2: who are hearing us talk about all the things we're

961
00:46:17,181 --> 00:46:19,502
Speaker 2: talking about will be like, lots of people are jealous

962
00:46:19,542 --> 00:46:21,661
Speaker 2: of you, right, Kate said that to Mail Robbins, lots

963
00:46:21,701 --> 00:46:23,422
Speaker 2: of people must be jealous of you. Mail Robins, You're

964
00:46:23,422 --> 00:46:25,181
Speaker 2: worth tens of millions of dollars. Look at you. I'm

965
00:46:25,221 --> 00:46:27,422
Speaker 2: sure your kitchen cabinets, as I said, are very nice.

966
00:46:27,862 --> 00:46:29,462
Speaker 2: And her response, guess what it was?

967
00:46:30,062 --> 00:46:35,421
Speaker 1: Let them look the real reason I'm on the show today.

968
00:46:35,462 --> 00:46:37,942
Speaker 1: I went and locked and Vernon and Amelia Lester in

969
00:46:37,982 --> 00:46:39,901
Speaker 1: a meeting room so that I could barge in here

970
00:46:39,902 --> 00:46:42,941
Speaker 1: to talk to you about this, because I needed your thoughts. So,

971
00:46:43,142 --> 00:46:47,261
Speaker 1: after the huge success of Netflix's doco called Beckham in

972
00:46:47,342 --> 00:46:50,022
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, Folk, It's not good David Beckham. It

973
00:46:50,102 --> 00:46:52,382
Speaker 1: was so good, wasn't it. We ate up every single

974
00:46:52,382 --> 00:46:55,102
Speaker 1: minute of it. So now Netflix is going to release

975
00:46:55,102 --> 00:46:57,982
Speaker 1: a new documentary next month with the very original title

976
00:46:58,261 --> 00:47:02,582
Speaker 1: Victoria Beckham, which is about Victoria Beckham more focused on

977
00:47:02,661 --> 00:47:06,822
Speaker 1: her I know, groundbreaking. Obviously the world has been obsessed

978
00:47:06,862 --> 00:47:09,181
Speaker 1: with this family for decades, so it'll no doubt cover

979
00:47:09,342 --> 00:47:12,022
Speaker 1: you know, her time and the Spice Girls meeting David,

980
00:47:12,462 --> 00:47:15,661
Speaker 1: her fashion career. But what I'm really interested in is

981
00:47:15,701 --> 00:47:18,821
Speaker 1: how they are going to cover their family life when

982
00:47:18,862 --> 00:47:22,142
Speaker 1: they are currently estranged from their eldest son, Brooklyn. So

983
00:47:22,302 --> 00:47:24,382
Speaker 1: to rewind a little bit for people who have lives

984
00:47:24,462 --> 00:47:27,102
Speaker 1: and don't know every single inch of this story like

985
00:47:27,181 --> 00:47:30,941
Speaker 1: I do. David and Victoria most notably weren't at their

986
00:47:30,982 --> 00:47:33,741
Speaker 1: son's vow renewal that he's been married for a whole

987
00:47:33,781 --> 00:47:36,862
Speaker 1: three years. Guys, he had a vow renewal to Nicola

988
00:47:36,902 --> 00:47:40,862
Speaker 1: Peltz Beckham last month, and his family, who have always

989
00:47:40,902 --> 00:47:43,861
Speaker 1: previously been very close with him been in attendance at

990
00:47:43,862 --> 00:47:47,701
Speaker 1: all of these things, weren't there. And then Brooklyn and

991
00:47:47,822 --> 00:47:51,502
Speaker 1: Nikola weren't in attendance at David Beckham's fiftieth birthday, so

992
00:47:51,542 --> 00:47:54,222
Speaker 1: it's very well documented that they're not on speaking.

993
00:47:54,302 --> 00:47:57,502
Speaker 2: It's at this point for while it was scoreless gossip,

994
00:47:57,542 --> 00:47:59,982
Speaker 2: it is actually now unquestionably true.

995
00:48:00,062 --> 00:48:03,582
Speaker 1: Exactly So what I'm interested to know whole is how

996
00:48:03,622 --> 00:48:07,102
Speaker 1: do you think they are going to cover their family

997
00:48:07,181 --> 00:48:09,542
Speaker 1: life and their family situation at the moment when it's

998
00:48:09,661 --> 00:48:11,781
Speaker 1: such a big part of their brand but it is

999
00:48:12,062 --> 00:48:14,142
Speaker 1: very much not ideal at the moment.

1000
00:48:14,302 --> 00:48:16,502
Speaker 2: It's very tricky, right because as you said, the thing

1001
00:48:16,542 --> 00:48:19,181
Speaker 2: about the Beckhams is being a type. Family is a

1002
00:48:19,261 --> 00:48:21,982
Speaker 2: massive part of their brand, and they're all expected to

1003
00:48:22,142 --> 00:48:24,381
Speaker 2: support each other all the time and everything they do.

1004
00:48:25,382 --> 00:48:27,221
Speaker 2: I think there's like a human answer to this, and

1005
00:48:27,261 --> 00:48:29,542
Speaker 2: then there's a Brandham answer to this, right, and that

1006
00:48:29,902 --> 00:48:32,701
Speaker 2: human answer to it, in my opinion, is postpone the

1007
00:48:32,701 --> 00:48:35,661
Speaker 2: doco if your son isn't speaking to you and you

1008
00:48:35,661 --> 00:48:39,661
Speaker 2: are truly a deeply family person, like just this isn't

1009
00:48:39,701 --> 00:48:42,182
Speaker 2: the time for vicki b doco And it'll be okay

1010
00:48:42,221 --> 00:48:45,221
Speaker 2: next year, mate, because hopefully wounds will heal. Who knows, right,

1011
00:48:45,822 --> 00:48:47,901
Speaker 2: I don't think that's going to happen because I think

1012
00:48:47,902 --> 00:48:50,301
Speaker 2: there's way too much money on the table, and so

1013
00:48:50,342 --> 00:48:52,181
Speaker 2: they've got three choices, and I'd love to know which

1014
00:48:52,181 --> 00:48:53,902
Speaker 2: one you think they'll go with if they're going to

1015
00:48:53,902 --> 00:48:58,902
Speaker 2: do the doco. They either say something without saying anything

1016
00:48:58,982 --> 00:49:01,462
Speaker 2: much so sort of like a statement at some point

1017
00:49:01,502 --> 00:49:04,261
Speaker 2: that they'll work in, probably when there's like footage again

1018
00:49:04,302 --> 00:49:06,341
Speaker 2: of the ball and a family barbecue and like there

1019
00:49:06,422 --> 00:49:09,262
Speaker 2: was in the first one and Brooklyn is notably absent,

1020
00:49:09,261 --> 00:49:11,222
Speaker 2: and they could have something like, you know, we really

1021
00:49:11,261 --> 00:49:14,341
Speaker 2: miss Brooklyn. We're very sad about what happened. Out of

1022
00:49:14,382 --> 00:49:17,022
Speaker 2: respect for his privacy, we're not going to go into it,

1023
00:49:17,142 --> 00:49:19,661
Speaker 2: but the door is always open, like just a very

1024
00:49:20,142 --> 00:49:23,301
Speaker 2: bland ye, no mention of it at all. Is the

1025
00:49:23,342 --> 00:49:27,062
Speaker 2: second option? Just pretend it's not happening, which would be weird.

1026
00:49:28,221 --> 00:49:30,502
Speaker 2: And the third option is to spill. They wouldn't do

1027
00:49:30,622 --> 00:49:33,142
Speaker 2: that in a million years, I don't think, because it

1028
00:49:33,261 --> 00:49:36,741
Speaker 2: is too that will send everything nuclear as soon as

1029
00:49:36,781 --> 00:49:39,582
Speaker 2: they start going, well, it was that Nicola. It was

1030
00:49:39,582 --> 00:49:41,982
Speaker 2: that Nicola and the wedding dress and her whole family

1031
00:49:41,982 --> 00:49:43,661
Speaker 2: don't like our whole family, and they make us feel

1032
00:49:43,661 --> 00:49:46,341
Speaker 2: like povos because O yot's really tiny. Like if they

1033
00:49:46,422 --> 00:49:49,862
Speaker 2: start doing that, then imagine how nuclear the other side's

1034
00:49:49,902 --> 00:49:52,582
Speaker 2: going to go with their billions of dollars. So I

1035
00:49:52,622 --> 00:49:56,462
Speaker 2: think they're all difficult choices. Which do you think.

1036
00:49:56,342 --> 00:49:59,021
Speaker 3: There's actually a fourth option which has been floated, which

1037
00:49:59,062 --> 00:50:01,422
Speaker 3: is that they have a lot of footage from early

1038
00:50:01,462 --> 00:50:05,662
Speaker 3: in the documentary filming process of them with Brooklyn.

1039
00:50:05,261 --> 00:50:08,301
Speaker 2: And Nicola No mention y.

1040
00:50:08,661 --> 00:50:09,462
Speaker 4: Yeah, well it is the norm.

1041
00:50:09,822 --> 00:50:12,181
Speaker 3: But it's like you kind of use that, you act

1042
00:50:12,302 --> 00:50:15,942
Speaker 3: like everything's fine and yeah, you don't acknowledge it.

1043
00:50:15,982 --> 00:50:16,862
Speaker 4: What's hard is that.

1044
00:50:16,781 --> 00:50:18,622
Speaker 2: You can do that, because then they would come out

1045
00:50:18,661 --> 00:50:20,622
Speaker 2: and say they would be legals. They would be like,

1046
00:50:20,661 --> 00:50:22,261
Speaker 2: we don't want to be in the documentary, do you

1047
00:50:22,302 --> 00:50:22,781
Speaker 2: know what I mean?

1048
00:50:22,902 --> 00:50:25,981
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, No, you're right, And it's hard because authenticity

1049
00:50:26,062 --> 00:50:28,982
Speaker 3: is so vital to their brand as well. And I

1050
00:50:29,102 --> 00:50:32,901
Speaker 3: worry about overexposure because the other Beckham documentary was done

1051
00:50:33,142 --> 00:50:36,221
Speaker 3: so recently. But what you don't want is this to

1052
00:50:36,261 --> 00:50:40,622
Speaker 3: turn into a Megan and Harry style Yeah, back and forth.

1053
00:50:40,781 --> 00:50:41,582
Speaker 4: It just doesn't.

1054
00:50:41,622 --> 00:50:43,821
Speaker 3: The UK is too obsessed with these tabloid stories. I

1055
00:50:43,862 --> 00:50:46,981
Speaker 3: think it's dangerous. I go with the option of they

1056
00:50:47,022 --> 00:50:49,662
Speaker 3: semi acknowledge it and give us absolutely no tea.

1057
00:50:49,701 --> 00:50:50,181
Speaker 4: What do you reckon?

1058
00:50:50,302 --> 00:50:52,301
Speaker 2: Yes, that's what they did with the infidelity in the

1059
00:50:52,342 --> 00:50:52,862
Speaker 2: day beyond.

1060
00:50:52,982 --> 00:50:55,342
Speaker 4: Yeah, they touched it.

1061
00:50:55,422 --> 00:50:58,102
Speaker 2: They showed some headlines, some of which were allegedly altered.

1062
00:50:58,422 --> 00:51:01,181
Speaker 2: They showed some headlines to say that it had happened,

1063
00:51:01,221 --> 00:51:02,822
Speaker 2: but no t Yeah.

1064
00:51:02,942 --> 00:51:05,261
Speaker 1: I think they will skirt as far as they can

1065
00:51:05,302 --> 00:51:08,102
Speaker 1: skirt around this issue. But I think they're smart enough

1066
00:51:08,142 --> 00:51:10,781
Speaker 1: to know that if they can completely erase them, that

1067
00:51:10,781 --> 00:51:13,022
Speaker 1: that is almost worse. That is sending a message to

1068
00:51:13,062 --> 00:51:16,142
Speaker 1: Brooklyn and Nicola that there's no chance of reconciliation here.

1069
00:51:16,342 --> 00:51:17,701
Speaker 1: So I think it will be, as you say, it

1070
00:51:17,741 --> 00:51:20,781
Speaker 1: will be a little drop, a little crumb for them

1071
00:51:20,822 --> 00:51:23,381
Speaker 1: to pick up enough that we see of Okay, they're

1072
00:51:23,422 --> 00:51:26,221
Speaker 1: acknowledging that they're not speaking right now. We weren't going crazy.

1073
00:51:26,382 --> 00:51:29,341
Speaker 1: This is true, but they will not comment on it further.

1074
00:51:29,582 --> 00:51:31,062
Speaker 1: I think that would be so silly to do that

1075
00:51:32,102 --> 00:51:32,902
Speaker 1: out louders.

1076
00:51:33,542 --> 00:51:36,261
Speaker 2: Gosh, I hope you've enjoyed this show. I've enjoyed this

1077
00:51:36,302 --> 00:51:37,421
Speaker 2: show me too. Yeah.

1078
00:51:38,542 --> 00:51:40,342
Speaker 4: Funner than that other stupid meeting.

1079
00:51:42,062 --> 00:51:44,902
Speaker 2: I'm glad we're not reductivity around table.

1080
00:51:44,982 --> 00:51:47,741
Speaker 1: We could have done it an hour. I'm very productive

1081
00:51:47,862 --> 00:51:52,781
Speaker 1: how much we covered anyway, I'm so glad they didn't

1082
00:51:52,822 --> 00:51:53,181
Speaker 1: invite us.

1083
00:51:53,502 --> 00:51:58,861
Speaker 2: Line Stacy, thank you so much for jumping in from

1084
00:51:58,862 --> 00:52:01,661
Speaker 2: really today. We so appreciate it, and thank you to

1085
00:52:01,701 --> 00:52:03,221
Speaker 2: all of our out louders for being here with us,

1086
00:52:03,462 --> 00:52:07,342
Speaker 2: and to our incredible team very much, including our wonderful

1087
00:52:07,422 --> 00:52:11,862
Speaker 2: executive producer Ruth Yours and we will see you all tomorrow.

1088
00:52:11,942 --> 00:52:14,582
Speaker 3: And if you're looking for something else to listen to,

1089
00:52:14,822 --> 00:52:18,302
Speaker 3: then we did a special subscriber episode yesterday all about

1090
00:52:18,982 --> 00:52:21,062
Speaker 3: the end of them, just like that at Stacey. If

1091
00:52:21,022 --> 00:52:22,422
Speaker 3: you've finished watching that show.

1092
00:52:22,422 --> 00:52:29,142
Speaker 1: I bowed out. Okay, season you tried, I really tried.

1093
00:52:29,181 --> 00:52:32,421
Speaker 3: I tried, and I went Look, I actually do want

1094
00:52:32,422 --> 00:52:34,142
Speaker 3: to know what happened, but I'm going to need you

1095
00:52:34,181 --> 00:52:35,502
Speaker 3: to tell me because I'm not going back there.

1096
00:52:35,542 --> 00:52:37,022
Speaker 1: So okay, great, that's perfect.

1097
00:52:37,142 --> 00:52:39,142
Speaker 3: Amelia and Holly got me across it. They had a

1098
00:52:39,142 --> 00:52:42,142
Speaker 3: lot of feelings, a lot of speculation about what happened

1099
00:52:42,261 --> 00:52:43,102
Speaker 3: behind the scenes.

1100
00:52:43,181 --> 00:52:45,022
Speaker 4: You can go and listen to that. There is a

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00:52:45,102 --> 00:52:46,142
Speaker 4: link in the show notes.

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00:52:46,622 --> 00:52:51,182
Speaker 3: Bye by shout out to any Mum and mea subscribers listening.

1103
00:52:51,462 --> 00:52:53,582
Speaker 3: If you love the show and you want to support us,

1104
00:52:53,862 --> 00:52:56,102
Speaker 3: subscribing to Mum and Mia is the very.

1105
00:52:56,022 --> 00:52:58,341
Speaker 4: Best way to do so. There's a link in the

1106
00:52:58,382 --> 00:52:59,262
Speaker 4: episode description