WEBVTT - "What REALLY Happened When I Confronted Belle Gibson" 0:00:24.884 --> 0:00:30.884 You're listening to a Mumma mea podcast if you love 0:00:30.924 --> 0:00:34.644 Extraordinary Stories. M plus subscribers get early access to new 0:00:34.644 --> 0:00:38.364 episodes and seasons of the show. To listen to unreleased 0:00:38.404 --> 0:00:41.844 episodes right now, head to mamama dot com dot a 0:00:41.964 --> 0:00:46.644 U forward slash M plus that's mp l us, or 0:00:46.884 --> 0:00:48.844 follow the link in the episode description. 0:00:49.644 --> 0:00:53.004 Hey, Extraordinary Stories listeners, I'm Jemma, the host of True 0:00:53.004 --> 0:00:56.364 Crime Conversations. I'm excited to bring you an episode from 0:00:56.404 --> 0:01:00.124 our podcast that I think you'll really enjoy. In this one, 0:01:00.204 --> 0:01:04.004 I interview Chanelle mccauliffe, the former best friend of convicted 0:01:04.044 --> 0:01:07.724 scammer Belle Gibson, who lied about having cancer and claimed 0:01:07.764 --> 0:01:11.364 she cured it with natural remedies. You might be familiar 0:01:11.364 --> 0:01:14.524 with Belle's story or have heard the Extraordinary Stories episodes 0:01:14.564 --> 0:01:18.604 about it. Chanelle is the whistleblower who exposed Belle to 0:01:18.644 --> 0:01:22.164 the media, particularly to the journalists at the age. You 0:01:22.204 --> 0:01:24.724 may have also seen the series Apple Side of Vinegar, 0:01:25.044 --> 0:01:28.964 which is based on the book those journalists wrote. Chanelle 0:01:28.964 --> 0:01:32.764 shares whether she thinks the series accurately depicts what happened 0:01:33.284 --> 0:01:35.964 after convincing herself to watch it, and she takes us 0:01:36.044 --> 0:01:38.284 back to when Belle was at the peak of her 0:01:38.404 --> 0:01:41.244 influence of fame and she started to realize that it 0:01:41.284 --> 0:01:41.844 was all a lie. 0:01:42.524 --> 0:01:43.164 Take a listen. 0:01:43.324 --> 0:01:45.804 If you enjoy this episode, we have a whole back 0:01:45.884 --> 0:01:48.924 catalog of episodes waiting for you in the True Crime 0:01:48.964 --> 0:01:52.324 Conversations feed. And next week we're dropping an interview with 0:01:52.364 --> 0:01:55.924 the anonymous host of the Case File podcast. You can 0:01:55.924 --> 0:01:58.004 find a link to our feed in the show notes. 0:01:59.124 --> 0:02:02.724 It's early twenty fifteen and single mum and entrepreneur Bell 0:02:02.804 --> 0:02:05.884 Gibson is living a life of luxury and success. 0:02:06.244 --> 0:02:06.804 She has a. 0:02:06.724 --> 0:02:11.244 Widely popular recipe app called The Whole Pantry, which features nourishing, 0:02:11.404 --> 0:02:15.004 plant based recipes, and she's preparing to release a book 0:02:15.084 --> 0:02:18.764 of the same name. Last year, she was named Elle 0:02:18.804 --> 0:02:23.044 Magazine's Most Aspiring Woman You've Met this Year and was 0:02:23.084 --> 0:02:27.724 Cosmo Magazine's Fun Fearless Female Recipient. Her app claimed the 0:02:27.724 --> 0:02:31.164 Apple title of Best Food and Drink App of twenty thirteen, 0:02:31.764 --> 0:02:34.924 and a few short years later, she's already enjoying over 0:02:35.004 --> 0:02:39.324 one million in sales. Her empire is built on an 0:02:39.324 --> 0:02:44.844 inspiring story of triumph, a harrowing and heartwarming story of survival. 0:02:46.044 --> 0:02:47.764 She first started posting about. 0:02:47.524 --> 0:02:52.084 Her malignant brain cancer on Instagram in twenty thirteen. Diagnosed 0:02:52.124 --> 0:02:54.164 in two thousand and nine at the age of twenty, 0:02:54.724 --> 0:02:58.124 she was given just four months to live. Instead of 0:02:58.164 --> 0:03:02.644 doing the usual chemotherapy and radiation treatments, Belle opted for 0:03:02.724 --> 0:03:06.524 alternative remedies, and, as she shared with her growing fanbase, 0:03:07.084 --> 0:03:11.764 they worked, they healed her. She spoke of a healthy 0:03:11.844 --> 0:03:15.964 diet free of gluten and sugar, of salt, vitamin and 0:03:16.004 --> 0:03:20.484 oxygen treatments, of the power of colonics, and the benefits 0:03:20.484 --> 0:03:25.764 of aravatic medicine, an ancient Indian holistic healing system. She 0:03:25.924 --> 0:03:29.964 encouraged her hundreds of thousands of followers to empower themselves 0:03:30.204 --> 0:03:34.644 and reclaim their lives through wellness, to heal themselves like 0:03:34.724 --> 0:03:40.284 she did naturally. But it was all a lie, all 0:03:40.324 --> 0:03:43.164 of it, and it was one of her close friends 0:03:44.004 --> 0:03:46.604 who first cottoned on to the truth. 0:03:53.364 --> 0:03:56.204 I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime. 0:03:55.964 --> 0:04:00.444 Conversations a Muma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious 0:04:00.484 --> 0:04:03.284 crimes by speaking to the people who know the most 0:04:03.284 --> 0:04:07.244 about them. A brand new series has just dropped on Netflix. 0:04:08.564 --> 0:04:12.804 I was diagnosed with a stage four brain shiver that 0:04:12.964 --> 0:04:14.164 was four years ago. 0:04:14.764 --> 0:04:16.764 Human beings are capable of anything. 0:04:19.084 --> 0:04:22.884 I was on a quest to heal myself naturally. I've 0:04:22.924 --> 0:04:25.404 flirste and honest. 0:04:26.324 --> 0:04:31.084 Apple Side of Vinegar follows the story of Belle Gibson's success, lies, 0:04:31.364 --> 0:04:34.844 and demise and right now it's the TV show everyone's 0:04:34.884 --> 0:04:38.964 talking about. Her unraveling started because of a suspicious friend. 0:04:39.444 --> 0:04:40.604 For Chanelle McAuliffe. 0:04:40.684 --> 0:04:43.524 There were certain parts of her story that weren't adding up, 0:04:44.124 --> 0:04:49.364 certain incidents and symptoms that raised her eyebrow. Eventually it 0:04:49.404 --> 0:04:53.284 would be Chanell that would first confront the conwoman. She 0:04:53.484 --> 0:04:56.084 was the whistleblower that brought down her web of lies 0:04:56.124 --> 0:04:59.204 and uncovered the damage she was doing to sick, vulnerable people. 0:05:00.084 --> 0:05:02.444 In Apple Side of Vinegar, the character of Chanell looks 0:05:02.524 --> 0:05:05.644 a little bit different to real life. In real life, 0:05:05.724 --> 0:05:10.164 Chanelle had no relationship with Jess Ainsco, another wellness influencer 0:05:10.204 --> 0:05:13.644 who was actually living with cancer whose story is best 0:05:13.644 --> 0:05:17.044 represented by the character of Miller in the show. She 0:05:17.124 --> 0:05:20.404 wasn't working for Bell, just a friend of Belle's, but 0:05:20.484 --> 0:05:23.324 she is the one who confronted her in her house 0:05:23.924 --> 0:05:27.044 and went to the meeting. As Belle's story is once 0:05:27.084 --> 0:05:30.764 again thrust before an international audience, we got the chance 0:05:30.804 --> 0:05:37.124 to speak to Chanelle. Chanelle Bell Gibson's name is once 0:05:37.164 --> 0:05:41.204 again everywhere. It's making headlines because there's a Netflix series 0:05:41.644 --> 0:05:44.004 out about her life and her crimes. 0:05:44.964 --> 0:05:45.764 Have you watched it? 0:05:47.004 --> 0:05:49.564 I have seen the show. I did have to force 0:05:49.644 --> 0:05:53.964 myself to watch it. I'm overall I'm not entirely a 0:05:54.044 --> 0:05:56.684 huge fan of the show for a number of reasons 0:05:56.724 --> 0:05:57.564 that we. 0:05:57.524 --> 0:06:00.804 Can chat about if you like. But yes, it seems 0:06:00.884 --> 0:06:04.244 to be a very big story in the media right now. 0:06:04.764 --> 0:06:08.164 So originally you weren't going to watch it, were you? 0:06:08.204 --> 0:06:09.444 No? I wasn't. 0:06:09.644 --> 0:06:16.364 I'm not entirely comfortable with dramatization and sensationalization of the story. 0:06:16.924 --> 0:06:21.204 The show has distorted the truth a little bit as well, 0:06:21.644 --> 0:06:26.684 and I'm not that comfortable with the capitalization of the 0:06:26.724 --> 0:06:28.244 harm that was caused. 0:06:27.924 --> 0:06:28.964 To people with cancer. 0:06:29.404 --> 0:06:33.684 So yeah, there's obviously Netflix and a film studio and 0:06:33.844 --> 0:06:37.764 people profiting from that harm that was caused. I've sort 0:06:37.764 --> 0:06:41.004 of been thinking a lot about the ethics behind this 0:06:41.164 --> 0:06:43.844 kind of storytelling on that platform. 0:06:44.964 --> 0:06:46.444 I'm not entirely comfortable with the. 0:06:46.404 --> 0:06:51.324 Way that these two characters, bal and Miller, who Miller 0:06:51.524 --> 0:06:54.524 is based on a real life person, Jess Ainsco, who 0:06:54.524 --> 0:06:57.644 actually did have cancer and was trying to heal her 0:06:57.684 --> 0:07:01.564 cancer naturally through wellness and natural remedies. 0:07:01.964 --> 0:07:04.644 They've pitted these two women against. 0:07:04.204 --> 0:07:07.484 Each other in the show, which actually didn't occur in 0:07:07.524 --> 0:07:14.244 real life, and I think it's quite a cliche, unoriginal, 0:07:14.564 --> 0:07:18.964 stereotypical narrative to kind of pit women against each other 0:07:19.084 --> 0:07:24.924 competitively as rivals, bitchy, gossipy, which is kind of what 0:07:25.004 --> 0:07:27.684 was depicted in the show. I just think it was 0:07:27.724 --> 0:07:31.284 really unnecessary, and I hope that the core messages that 0:07:31.364 --> 0:07:34.964 are really important about this story, about the harm that 0:07:35.044 --> 0:07:38.484 was cause to people, about how we can easily be 0:07:38.684 --> 0:07:43.044 misled or consume misinformation online. I just hope that those 0:07:43.084 --> 0:07:46.884 important messages aren't lost through the glamorization of this show. 0:07:47.524 --> 0:07:50.244 What about your character in the show, because they use 0:07:50.324 --> 0:07:54.124 your name, but your character is kind of an amalgamation 0:07:54.244 --> 0:07:56.244 of you and you know other. 0:07:56.044 --> 0:07:58.444 People in Bell's life. How did you feel about the 0:07:58.484 --> 0:07:59.364 way they portrayed you. 0:08:01.204 --> 0:08:05.764 I actually was pleasantly surprised how my character was portrayed. 0:08:05.924 --> 0:08:08.404 I had no idea what they were going to do 0:08:08.484 --> 0:08:10.844 with it. I mean, obviously there's many things about my 0:08:10.964 --> 0:08:14.284 character and in the show that aren't accurate. For example, 0:08:14.324 --> 0:08:19.084 I wasn't Bell's manager or jess ains Co's manager Miller's character. 0:08:19.564 --> 0:08:25.244 I did know jess ains Co, but we weren't close friends. However, 0:08:27.444 --> 0:08:30.564 the scenes where I confront Bell, which has now dubbed 0:08:30.604 --> 0:08:34.044 the intervention, where I am urging her to come forward 0:08:34.164 --> 0:08:37.044 and tell the truth, there was a lot of main 0:08:37.084 --> 0:08:40.724 parts of that scene that were really accurate, and I 0:08:40.764 --> 0:08:43.164 found that scene to be really compelling, and I think 0:08:43.564 --> 0:08:47.444 it's really important for me for the world to see 0:08:47.444 --> 0:08:51.204 that I did urge Bell to come forward and tell 0:08:51.244 --> 0:08:54.324 the truth. I never set out to expose Belle or 0:08:54.364 --> 0:08:58.084 to have Bell canceled. I actually went to her as 0:08:58.124 --> 0:09:01.044 her friend and said, if you come forward and tell 0:09:01.084 --> 0:09:03.444 the truth, I will help you. I'll support you with 0:09:03.524 --> 0:09:07.924 the fallout, and she refused to, and had she done that, 0:09:08.004 --> 0:09:10.724 things could have played out so much differently for her. 0:09:11.364 --> 0:09:12.964 I want to go back to the start of your 0:09:13.004 --> 0:09:17.124 story because it is quite different to the Netflix show. 0:09:18.444 --> 0:09:20.164 Tell us about how you met Belle. 0:09:21.084 --> 0:09:24.444 Sure So, I was actually doing a writing internship for 0:09:24.444 --> 0:09:27.724 a public location in Melbourne at the time, and they 0:09:27.724 --> 0:09:30.684 were more just interested in doing a puff piece on her. 0:09:30.804 --> 0:09:33.764 It was we were kind of interested in what she 0:09:33.884 --> 0:09:37.764 was doing with food and technology and being innovative and 0:09:37.804 --> 0:09:38.324 this kind. 0:09:38.164 --> 0:09:39.724 Of startup space. 0:09:40.004 --> 0:09:42.804 So I reached out to her and she invited me 0:09:43.004 --> 0:09:47.524 to the launch event of the Whole Pantry app, and 0:09:48.364 --> 0:09:50.644 that night it was quite difficult for us to connect 0:09:50.764 --> 0:09:53.324 and chat. She was hosting the event. There's so many 0:09:53.364 --> 0:09:56.164 people there and so she was talking to a lot 0:09:56.164 --> 0:09:56.484 of people. 0:09:56.524 --> 0:09:58.484 We just briefly kind of. 0:09:58.444 --> 0:10:02.484 Introduced ourselves, and then after that event we met up 0:10:02.524 --> 0:10:06.644 for I think coffee, and it was really difficult to 0:10:07.404 --> 0:10:10.524 kind of get any information out of her, and so 0:10:10.604 --> 0:10:12.604 I just thought I'll just build a bit of upper 0:10:12.644 --> 0:10:15.804 hole with her. It turned out we had some mutual friends. 0:10:16.444 --> 0:10:18.724 So then we went for coffee again and then lunch 0:10:18.844 --> 0:10:24.244 and dinner, and we were at similar events together and 0:10:24.884 --> 0:10:27.924 really just a friendship formed from there. 0:10:29.044 --> 0:10:33.164 What did being friends with Belle look like? Was it 0:10:33.524 --> 0:10:36.204 constant messaging? Was it hanging out all the time? Was 0:10:36.244 --> 0:10:36.964 she a good friend? 0:10:38.684 --> 0:10:43.924 Belle was really warm and charismatic. She actually had a 0:10:43.964 --> 0:10:47.684 way of making you feel really special, and looking back, 0:10:48.484 --> 0:10:52.764 I think this was part of kind of it was 0:10:52.844 --> 0:10:56.364 quite calculated on her behalf because she had to deflect 0:10:56.404 --> 0:11:00.284 from herself so much, and if you've seen interviews with her, 0:11:00.404 --> 0:11:03.564 especially this sixty minutes interviewer in the show, it's very 0:11:03.604 --> 0:11:06.764 difficult to get a straight answer from her. So she 0:11:07.484 --> 0:11:10.924 had a way of really making the attention about the 0:11:11.004 --> 0:11:15.244 other person. So you always felt really kind of special 0:11:15.604 --> 0:11:20.244 and important in her presence. Our friendship looked like going 0:11:20.284 --> 0:11:23.324 out for lunch. It sentered a lot around food. And 0:11:23.364 --> 0:11:27.364 what was quite interesting is my partner at the time 0:11:27.964 --> 0:11:32.564 actually had a traumatic brain injury, and Bao really connected 0:11:32.604 --> 0:11:36.044 with him and developed a really close friendship with him 0:11:36.164 --> 0:11:41.524 because she claimed that because of her brain tumor. That 0:11:41.644 --> 0:11:44.284 also meant she had a traumatic brain injury as a 0:11:44.284 --> 0:11:45.924 result of the brain tumor. 0:11:46.964 --> 0:11:48.204 What we've now learnt. 0:11:48.044 --> 0:11:53.164 About Beao is that she gravitated to people, especially you know, 0:11:53.204 --> 0:11:57.604 people with cancer, to leverage them to her own advantage, 0:11:57.644 --> 0:11:59.924 to learn about their symptoms and take them on as 0:11:59.964 --> 0:12:02.684 her own. So she was actually doing that with my 0:12:02.804 --> 0:12:07.284 partner at the time. However, you know, I wasn't aware 0:12:07.324 --> 0:12:12.084 of that, and so yes, they had a close friendship 0:12:12.524 --> 0:12:15.284 and and out friendship circle kind of just grew as 0:12:15.284 --> 0:12:16.004 well from there. 0:12:16.524 --> 0:12:18.564 What did you think of her success, about the whole 0:12:18.604 --> 0:12:21.244 pantry and everything she was doing in that space. 0:12:23.244 --> 0:12:25.844 I was quite impressed by the business she was building. 0:12:26.244 --> 0:12:30.124 She she was quite innovative for that era. It was 0:12:30.204 --> 0:12:35.804 really early days of social media, especially Instagram, building an audience, 0:12:35.884 --> 0:12:40.164 connecting with an audience, getting on the Apple Watch. 0:12:41.244 --> 0:12:44.324 So that that was compelling to me at the time. 0:12:44.444 --> 0:12:46.844 This, you know, regardless if she was sick or not, 0:12:47.604 --> 0:12:52.804 this young woman, this young single mother, pioneering you know, this, 0:12:52.804 --> 0:12:55.444 this technology and this business. 0:12:55.724 --> 0:12:58.764 So that that was that side of it was compelling 0:12:58.804 --> 0:12:59.244 at the time. 0:12:59.924 --> 0:13:03.724 When did you start getting a weird feeling? What were 0:13:03.724 --> 0:13:05.684 the first things that kind of struck you as odd? 0:13:07.164 --> 0:13:10.844 So behind the scenes, there would be things like we 0:13:10.884 --> 0:13:14.764 would go out drinking and one night, you know, she 0:13:14.924 --> 0:13:18.324 ordered shots and we were doing shots, and I said, oh, 0:13:18.444 --> 0:13:20.604 should you really be drinking? Like, you know, she was 0:13:20.644 --> 0:13:26.364 obviously doing this very strict wellness now natural protocol to 0:13:26.444 --> 0:13:31.644 heal herself from cancer, so drinking alcohol excessively was kind 0:13:31.684 --> 0:13:34.844 of really in conflict of that. So I said, you know, 0:13:34.844 --> 0:13:36.964 should you be drinking? And she said, well, I'm going 0:13:37.044 --> 0:13:40.564 to die anyway, so why not have some fun? And 0:13:40.604 --> 0:13:43.284 then there was a time where she also went to 0:13:43.284 --> 0:13:46.124 the solarium, which I thought was a bit odd given 0:13:46.484 --> 0:13:51.164 the risk of skin cancer with using selarium. And then 0:13:51.324 --> 0:13:55.284 the biggest thing for me, well, apart from that, she 0:13:55.324 --> 0:13:58.844 never appeared sick ever, never saw her sick. 0:13:58.884 --> 0:14:03.164 She was the epitome of wellness right, this. 0:14:03.804 --> 0:14:08.844 Beautiful, long, lush hair, She was glowing, she was active, happy, 0:14:09.924 --> 0:14:16.804 and then at her son's fourth birthday party, she all 0:14:16.844 --> 0:14:21.404 of a sudden collapsed to the floor and was having 0:14:21.884 --> 0:14:24.284 what appeared to be quite a violent seizure. She was 0:14:24.284 --> 0:14:27.724 convulsed on the ground, saliva was coming out of her mouth, 0:14:28.444 --> 0:14:31.604 and this went on for a really long time, about 0:14:31.644 --> 0:14:37.804 forty minutes, and about halfway through, I said, I'm calling 0:14:37.884 --> 0:14:40.404 an ambulance, and all of a sudden she kind of 0:14:40.924 --> 0:14:44.324 comes out of the seizure and says, no, I don't 0:14:44.324 --> 0:14:48.124 want Western medicine involved, and so I said, okay, and 0:14:48.124 --> 0:14:50.644 then she kind of went back into the seizure and 0:14:51.004 --> 0:14:53.404 then it kind of tape it off. And there was 0:14:53.604 --> 0:14:57.924 just something about it that just seems really performative to me. 0:14:58.884 --> 0:15:00.564 And yeah, it was. 0:15:00.564 --> 0:15:04.684 That day I left that party that I just knew 0:15:04.804 --> 0:15:06.964 in my gut that something was really wrong. 0:15:07.604 --> 0:15:10.324 Well, if I'm not mistaken, it was soon after that 0:15:10.364 --> 0:15:14.684 birthday that she announced that her cancer was spreading. But 0:15:14.764 --> 0:15:15.924 how did you find out about that? 0:15:17.284 --> 0:15:21.804 Yes, so she announced on Instagram that she now had 0:15:21.884 --> 0:15:26.044 stage four cancer. It had spread from her brain to spleen, 0:15:26.164 --> 0:15:29.684 her uterus, in her blood. It was basically a death sentence, 0:15:29.884 --> 0:15:33.564 and myself and most of her close friends we all 0:15:33.604 --> 0:15:38.644 found out by seeing it on her Instagram, which you 0:15:38.684 --> 0:15:41.884 know it was. We thought was quite odd that that's 0:15:42.284 --> 0:15:47.484 such serious diagnosis, and you know, we were all so 0:15:48.044 --> 0:15:53.204 you know, caring for her and concerned about her. So, yeah, 0:15:53.204 --> 0:15:56.684 it was really strange that it wasn't something that she 0:15:56.844 --> 0:16:00.564 shared with anyone really directly. It was just it was 0:16:00.644 --> 0:16:02.684 just kind of a press announcement. 0:16:03.404 --> 0:16:06.644 Once you had this hunch, it's a big leap to 0:16:06.684 --> 0:16:09.244 go from like having a feeling that something's not quite 0:16:09.324 --> 0:16:15.004 right to actually like talking to someone about it. Did 0:16:15.044 --> 0:16:17.884 you kind of mention it to friends and family, try 0:16:17.924 --> 0:16:20.724 and get some other people involved in how you're feeling. 0:16:21.444 --> 0:16:25.004 Yes, I did go to one of our mutual friends 0:16:25.284 --> 0:16:29.444 and I shared my concerns with him, what I thought, 0:16:30.044 --> 0:16:32.884 regret flags and why things didn't add up for me 0:16:33.644 --> 0:16:37.724 and he started to see that, yeah, okay. 0:16:38.364 --> 0:16:41.604 Some of this doesn't make sense. So I asked him 0:16:41.644 --> 0:16:44.324 if he would come with me to basically. 0:16:45.604 --> 0:16:48.724 Hold an intervention and kind of confront Bell and try 0:16:48.804 --> 0:16:53.604 and get some answers from her. So he agreed to 0:16:53.604 --> 0:16:57.804 do that, and we went over to Bell's house unannounced, 0:16:58.324 --> 0:17:01.684 and we sat her down and I just straight. 0:17:01.404 --> 0:17:04.884 Out asked her if she had cancer. 0:17:06.244 --> 0:17:10.364 And what did she say. 0:17:10.684 --> 0:17:15.204 She was acting kind of very defensive. She was saying 0:17:15.244 --> 0:17:19.244 that I was interrogating her. She started to slump down 0:17:19.284 --> 0:17:21.804 in her chair and say that she felt sick and 0:17:22.004 --> 0:17:25.884 was acting kind of faint. That point I kind of 0:17:25.964 --> 0:17:30.124 knew was based on having to see this, seeing the seizure. 0:17:31.084 --> 0:17:33.524 I kind of knew that maybe this was another tactic 0:17:33.924 --> 0:17:36.204 of hers to all of a sudden, you know, act. 0:17:36.044 --> 0:17:39.684 Sick or as a way to deflect. She said that 0:17:39.924 --> 0:17:41.004 of course she was sick. 0:17:41.884 --> 0:17:47.324 I basically demanded her to go get any medical evidence 0:17:47.604 --> 0:17:51.044 to prove that she had cancer, any scanned, any hospital 0:17:51.204 --> 0:17:54.444 doctor reports. She said that she didn't like to keep 0:17:54.484 --> 0:17:58.404 those documents because it's negative energy in her house. And 0:17:58.484 --> 0:18:02.204 so I asked her about this stage four diagnosis that 0:18:02.284 --> 0:18:04.804 she had just announced, and I said, what hospital did 0:18:04.844 --> 0:18:08.004 you go to to get that diagnosis? You know, I'm 0:18:08.084 --> 0:18:12.524 sure that it was a major hospital in Melbourne. And 0:18:12.564 --> 0:18:14.884 she said, she didn't go to a hospital. She went 0:18:14.924 --> 0:18:18.244 to some random doctor's house in the suburbs. He picked 0:18:18.244 --> 0:18:22.204 her up and drove her there and gave her the diagnosis. 0:18:22.444 --> 0:18:25.964 And I asked her who was that? What's his name? 0:18:26.044 --> 0:18:30.804 And she said doctor Phil. And at that point I 0:18:31.604 --> 0:18:35.084 actually thought it was so comical that the story was 0:18:35.444 --> 0:18:42.684 her story was that ridiculous and that so unplausible. So yeah, 0:18:42.724 --> 0:18:49.324 doctor Phil just had me stumped. And so I said, 0:18:49.324 --> 0:18:51.964 if you if you've not had a proper diagnosis at 0:18:51.964 --> 0:18:56.244 a hospital in some random house by this doctor, you know, 0:18:56.284 --> 0:19:02.444 does that mean you're your diagnosis is questionable? And she said, well, possibly, 0:19:02.524 --> 0:19:07.524 because doctor Phil's gone missing. He's gone to ground, and 0:19:07.804 --> 0:19:11.484 none of his colleagues know where he is. And so 0:19:11.564 --> 0:19:16.604 obviously that all just sounded even more suspicious and unbelievable. 0:19:17.764 --> 0:19:23.124 So at this point she called Julie Gibbs, their editor 0:19:23.404 --> 0:19:28.124 publisher at Penguin Books, and she's set asking Julie or 0:19:28.164 --> 0:19:32.124 accusing Julie of speaking to her friends. And this one 0:19:32.204 --> 0:19:34.724 of her friends is jealous and accusing her of not 0:19:34.804 --> 0:19:37.164 being sick, and did Julie put me. 0:19:37.204 --> 0:19:37.644 Up to this? 0:19:37.764 --> 0:19:42.044 Basically? And from what I could tell, Julia must have. 0:19:42.244 --> 0:19:44.524 I think Julie seemed really confused on the end the 0:19:44.564 --> 0:19:48.924 other end of the phone. Well, then called someone else. 0:19:49.004 --> 0:19:53.004 She phoned her acupuncturist and asked him to come over, 0:19:53.964 --> 0:19:58.804 and when he arrived, she said to him, tell them 0:19:58.924 --> 0:20:01.364 that I have cancer. And this was kind of her 0:20:01.364 --> 0:20:04.324 way to basically prove to us that she had cancer. 0:20:04.844 --> 0:20:08.084 And he said, well, of course you have cancer. And 0:20:08.124 --> 0:20:10.044 I said, well, how do you know that she has cancer? 0:20:10.204 --> 0:20:12.524 And he said, because she told me so. 0:20:12.564 --> 0:20:15.124 It doesn't sound like it was a short conversation. It 0:20:15.244 --> 0:20:17.804 was over a few hours or so if you had 0:20:17.844 --> 0:20:19.644 all these different phone calls and visitors. 0:20:19.724 --> 0:20:22.604 And yes, it was quite a few hours. I mean 0:20:22.724 --> 0:20:27.924 it seemed seemed forever at the time. I also went 0:20:28.044 --> 0:20:31.444 upstairs at her house to try and find Clive, her partner, 0:20:31.604 --> 0:20:37.244 who was somewhat involved in her business and the whole pantry. 0:20:38.004 --> 0:20:42.084 And Clive was someone who was kind of really difficult 0:20:42.164 --> 0:20:44.964 to figure out. He was kind of always in the background. 0:20:45.524 --> 0:20:50.604 He was quite withdrawn, very quiet. So I went upstairs 0:20:50.644 --> 0:20:54.004 and I found Clive and I said, Clive, you need 0:20:54.044 --> 0:20:58.244 to tell me the truth. And he said she would 0:20:58.244 --> 0:21:03.724 destroy anyone that tries to expose her and that he. 0:21:03.724 --> 0:21:05.764 Needs to protect her little boy. 0:21:06.924 --> 0:21:10.964 So it was kind of a very cryptic, confronting answer 0:21:11.004 --> 0:21:13.844 I got from him. He then came downstairs with me 0:21:14.084 --> 0:21:17.844 and he sat down with us and we were trying 0:21:17.844 --> 0:21:21.484 to make sense of it all, and it kind of 0:21:21.724 --> 0:21:24.204 the penny didn't drop for me until a little bit 0:21:24.284 --> 0:21:24.684 later on. 0:21:24.844 --> 0:21:26.524 But he made a comment that night. 0:21:27.004 --> 0:21:29.884 Because I did did say to Bell which you can 0:21:29.924 --> 0:21:33.284 see in the show. I said to her, this is 0:21:33.324 --> 0:21:35.284 your inner circle knocking at your door. 0:21:35.764 --> 0:21:37.524 This is where it starts. 0:21:37.164 --> 0:21:40.844 And this is where it can end, and urging her 0:21:41.284 --> 0:21:44.324 to come forward on her own terms and tell the truth. 0:21:45.204 --> 0:21:48.724 And at that point when I was saying that, Clive 0:21:49.444 --> 0:21:52.884 said to beow Belle, you need to get the books 0:21:52.924 --> 0:21:56.364 in order. And I think what that sort of meant 0:21:56.404 --> 0:22:00.644 later on was in regards to the charity fraud that 0:22:00.804 --> 0:22:04.964 Belle was conducting. So the books for her business, you know, 0:22:05.044 --> 0:22:07.564 weren't in order. She needed to kind of start covering 0:22:07.604 --> 0:22:12.004 her tracks or start paying the charities. So he was 0:22:12.084 --> 0:22:15.404 kind of hinting to Bowl and basically just just putting 0:22:15.444 --> 0:22:17.684 it out there that she needed to. 0:22:17.604 --> 0:22:18.764 Tie up loose ends. 0:22:19.564 --> 0:22:25.884 So I left that night just being absolutely gob smacked 0:22:26.884 --> 0:22:31.124 that it just had confirmed everything for me that it 0:22:31.324 --> 0:22:35.404 was all a lie. There was at times for me 0:22:36.004 --> 0:22:39.564 where there was one percent of me that felt, what 0:22:39.644 --> 0:22:42.324 if I've got this all wrong? What if I'm accusing 0:22:42.404 --> 0:22:46.844 this poor young woman of not having cancel when she 0:22:46.884 --> 0:22:51.484 really does. But that night it just solidified everything for me. 0:22:52.044 --> 0:22:56.444 And so I left there urging Bell again to come 0:22:56.524 --> 0:22:58.404 forward and tell the truth. 0:22:58.644 --> 0:22:59.764 And then a. 0:22:59.724 --> 0:23:03.324 Few days later I called her and I asked her 0:23:03.364 --> 0:23:06.364 if she was ready to come forward, and again I 0:23:06.444 --> 0:23:09.724 was met with defensiveness, some aggression. 0:23:10.764 --> 0:23:12.924 And then it was maybe a week or a. 0:23:12.924 --> 0:23:15.524 Couple of weeks after that it was her book launch, 0:23:15.684 --> 0:23:22.444 and we actually weren't really obviously kind of friends anymore 0:23:22.484 --> 0:23:24.484 at this point on talking terms. There was a lot 0:23:24.484 --> 0:23:26.564 of ten she knew. 0:23:26.324 --> 0:23:26.924 That I knew. 0:23:27.364 --> 0:23:29.484 But I still rocked up to her book launch and 0:23:29.724 --> 0:23:31.684 i'd just seen the show. I stood there in the 0:23:31.684 --> 0:23:34.924 crowd and and and just really stared at her and 0:23:35.644 --> 0:23:38.804 just made a point of you know that there's someone 0:23:38.884 --> 0:23:41.684 here that knows and is going to hold you accountable 0:23:41.844 --> 0:23:47.564 and the book launch. Yeah, she just acted like nothing 0:23:47.684 --> 0:23:48.244 was going on. 0:23:49.004 --> 0:23:51.004 Were you angry through all of this? 0:23:51.404 --> 0:23:54.764 Once you'd had that kind of confrontation as they call it, 0:23:55.764 --> 0:23:56.724 and you were kind. 0:23:56.604 --> 0:24:01.044 Of waiting for her to admit what were the emotions? 0:24:01.084 --> 0:24:01.644 Was it anger? 0:24:02.564 --> 0:24:07.244 I was very angry. My mother has has battled cancer twice. 0:24:07.284 --> 0:24:09.604 I mean, I mean we all, we all have a 0:24:09.644 --> 0:24:13.484 connection to someone who's had cancer, or we know of 0:24:13.604 --> 0:24:17.964 someone that have someone close to them who's who's been 0:24:17.964 --> 0:24:18.804 touched by cancer. 0:24:18.884 --> 0:24:21.164 So yeah, it made. 0:24:21.084 --> 0:24:26.284 Me very angry at What was so alarming is that 0:24:26.644 --> 0:24:29.844 the message she was putting out was so dangerous because 0:24:30.924 --> 0:24:36.084 really vulnerable people, people with cancer, were making really serious 0:24:36.084 --> 0:24:38.924 decisions about their life and about their health. 0:24:39.044 --> 0:24:42.124 So yeah, it made my blood. 0:24:41.884 --> 0:24:46.404 Boil, especially because now I knew that I made her 0:24:46.444 --> 0:24:46.964