Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother and me a podcast. Mama
Speaker 1: Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that
Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on. Hey there, Before we start
Speaker 1: today's episode, I just want to say that you are
Speaker 1: going to be hearing from some wonderful Muma Mea voices
Speaker 1: over the next few weeks as I work on another project.
Speaker 1: Hollywayin wright, Claire Stevens a Nama Brown, who is the
Speaker 1: executive producer of this show, are all going to be
Speaker 1: sitting in my chair for a few weeks and doing
Speaker 1: the same wonderful interviews that you know and love from
Speaker 1: No Filter. There are some great conversations coming your way
Speaker 1: about red and green flags in relationships, sex and porn, addiction,
Speaker 1: escaping from a religious cult, narcissism, sobriety, and more. You'll
Speaker 1: be hearing from me soon.
Speaker 2: Enjoy when we run away, when we see the first
Speaker 2: bread flag. It's not only that we just don't always
Speaker 2: make the best decisions. We actually lose our ability to
Speaker 2: be able to deal with difficult situations in our lives.
Speaker 3: Our brain is like a muscle. You need to train it.
Speaker 2: That's why you know, it's like a social skill that
Speaker 2: you need to develop, and yes, you have to face
Speaker 2: challenging situations your in life to become more resilient.
Speaker 4: From mommea you're listening to no filter. I'm Claire Stevens,
Speaker 4: and a not so fun fact about me is that
Speaker 4: sometimes I can be a dirty, dirty gossip. I like
Speaker 4: to think that I don't engage in a mean form
Speaker 4: of gossip.
Speaker 5: I'm more just like to think.
Speaker 4: That I'm fascinated by people and their motivations, and really
Speaker 4: I'm engaging in quite high level behavioral analysis. But I
Speaker 4: probably have gossiped in a toxic way before, and who.
Speaker 5: Amongst us as not?
Speaker 4: And if I'm being really honest and just totally being
Speaker 4: forthcoming about all the flaws in my character. I also
Speaker 4: worry that I sometimes have a tendency to be a
Speaker 4: bit of a selfish friend. I'm always forgetting things like birthdays,
Speaker 4: and I'm terrible at gift giving. I sometimes think there
Speaker 4: can be what my guest today refers to as an
Speaker 4: imbalance of reciprocity in my friendships. I often feel like
Speaker 4: I'm the one who owes someone something, So are these
Speaker 4: red flags about me? If someone met me and noticed
Speaker 4: these things, should they just run for the hills, because
Speaker 4: these are things that if you were on TikTok or
Speaker 4: Instagram and you saw a video about red flags, they
Speaker 4: might come up.
Speaker 5: Am I just a walking, talking red flag.
Speaker 4: Well, according to doctor Ali Fenwick, a very engaging behavioral
Speaker 4: scientist who has written a book called Red Flags, Green Flags,
Speaker 4: Modern Psychology for everyday drama, it's not that simple because
Speaker 4: in doctor Fenwick's framework, the red or green flags we
Speaker 4: see in someone else might actually say more about us
Speaker 4: than them. Like most people, I first came across the
Speaker 4: concept of red flags in the context of romantic relationships
Speaker 4: and dating. So red, green, and even beige flags are everywhere,
Speaker 4: and we tend to use them as shortcuts to make
Speaker 4: judgments about people and to decide to just totally abandon
Speaker 4: mission when you're meeting someone if they say something or
Speaker 4: indicate some sort of behavior that just doesn't align with
Speaker 4: what we think a good person does. We do get
Speaker 4: into flags in romantic relationships, but doctor Fenwick applies his
Speaker 4: work to all our relationships, including our relationships with our
Speaker 4: parents and siblings, our workplace, and more.
Speaker 5: So let's jump in.
Speaker 4: I started by asking doctor Fenwick what a behavioral scientist
Speaker 4: actually is.
Speaker 2: Yes, a behavioral scientist basically studies the behavior and thinking
Speaker 2: and nature of human beings, either individually or within groups.
Speaker 2: And of course, as a behavioral scientist, you know, you
Speaker 2: want to understand what are those factors that really influence
Speaker 2: people's behaviors, either from the individual or from the environment.
Speaker 2: And we look at that because we want to understand
Speaker 2: why people behave the way they do, and also how
Speaker 2: can we influence people's behaviors to make sometimes better decision
Speaker 2: for themselves. So I think that, in a nutshell, is
Speaker 2: what behavioral scientist does.
Speaker 4: You're well known for the way you communicate quite complex
Speaker 4: psychological ideas on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook and LinkedIn. I study
Speaker 4: psychology not at the level that you have, but I
Speaker 4: know that a crucial part of it is that ability
Speaker 4: to communicate science in a way that the lay people
Speaker 4: can understand. When did you start sharing your knowledge on
Speaker 4: social media?
Speaker 5: And why?
Speaker 2: Yeah, phenomenal question. Look, we don't really understand the gen
Speaker 2: Z generation that well, especially in the classroom, and we
Speaker 2: we also have a you know, because our work as
Speaker 2: a professor at a university, it was like, you know,
Speaker 2: how do we better engage that younger generation in the classroom,
Speaker 2: because their attention span is you know, it's more and
Speaker 2: more lower than you know that we're normally used to
Speaker 2: with adults, for example, the way they engage with content,
Speaker 2: the way they have to be taught. So, you know,
Speaker 2: there was this question like, Ali, could you go and
Speaker 2: investigate this because you know, you're a psychologist here that
Speaker 2: our business school see if you can help us out
Speaker 2: a little bit. So of course, you know what what
Speaker 2: I thought, what was the best place to start? And
Speaker 2: I thought, let me just go online on social media.
Speaker 2: I started basically just you know, looking into how people
Speaker 2: engage and what were they doing online, how are they communicating,
Speaker 2: how were they you.
Speaker 3: Know, consuming content?
Speaker 2: And then eventually I was like, know, could I try
Speaker 2: to teach people online or get across psychology in a
Speaker 2: way that is engaging to them in such an online environment,
Speaker 2: which of course is very different than what you normally
Speaker 2: do in a classroom. And so I just kind of
Speaker 2: put that on myself to try it out, and of course,
Speaker 2: with a lot of trial and error, I eventually came
Speaker 2: to I don't want to call it a model, but
Speaker 2: I eventually found my way on social media to get
Speaker 2: content across in a very engaging way that really related
Speaker 2: to people, right, And I think that was the reason
Speaker 2: why I got online to start sharing my content and
Speaker 2: doing it in the way that I do today.
Speaker 4: What year was it when you started to really lean
Speaker 4: in to your content?
Speaker 2: Right? So I started this because the question came to
Speaker 2: me in twenty twenty twenty one around I would say,
Speaker 2: three years ago.
Speaker 4: So post okay, so interestingly post COVID, so a time
Speaker 4: when people had actually leant into social media even deeper
Speaker 4: than they had previously.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, Yes.
Speaker 2: Also during the pandemic, I was also very present on
Speaker 2: the news. You know, I was giving people a behavioral
Speaker 2: perspective to the pandemic, and so I spent a good
Speaker 2: year on the news talking about the psychological effects of
Speaker 2: the pandemic on people, or you know, how can we
Speaker 2: make working from home more effective? Or how will you
Speaker 2: know all kinds of phenomena that we saw happening in
Speaker 2: the world, like why are people going out and buying
Speaker 2: toilet paper for example. I was there to give people
Speaker 2: a behavioral perspective to why that was happening. So I
Speaker 2: think that already started before the actual social media engagement
Speaker 2: actually happened. Once I started investigating that.
Speaker 4: Question, and do you worry because obviously you're somebody with
Speaker 4: a very high level qualification, you're somebody with a lot
Speaker 4: of experience teaching, a lot of experience in research. Do
Speaker 4: you worry that there are some people who may misinterpret
Speaker 4: the research or use certain buzzwords from psychology and repackage
Speaker 4: it in a way that might be dangerous online.
Speaker 2: I think you're asking a very valid questions. First of all,
Speaker 2: social media is an unfiltered environment, right, so anyone can
Speaker 2: jump in and just kind of put stuff out there,
Speaker 2: and that by itself is not always you know, it's
Speaker 2: you know, that could be potentially dangerous because you know,
Speaker 2: people are just saying stuff and you see people talking
Speaker 2: about you know, foods and nutrition and all these kinds
Speaker 2: of things that might not be even even that healthy
Speaker 2: for you. So I think from that perspective, anything that
Speaker 2: you put online, you know, you should take it with
Speaker 2: a grain of salt. When it comes to psychology, I mean,
Speaker 2: of course, it's a lot of buzzwords and a lot
Speaker 2: of trends of course being thrown around left and right,
Speaker 2: and I often think that people don't really understand the
Speaker 2: underlying factors that underlie that, or if there's no underlying
Speaker 2: factors at all that underlie that. So, yes, that exists online.
Speaker 2: I also see the positive side of that as well.
Speaker 2: I also think that because people now are much more
Speaker 2: aware about, you know, why people treat each other like
Speaker 2: they do in relationships, or why do people feel the
Speaker 2: way they do as an individual, I think people have
Speaker 2: become much more aware of themselves in.
Speaker 3: The relationship that they have with other people.
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, that is also a positive
Speaker 2: aspect of it as well. But you're right, you know,
Speaker 2: I think social media has this unfiltered aspect to it,
Speaker 2: which makes it sometimes you know, we need to be
Speaker 2: a bit more critical about what we see online.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And I think that a lot of your
Speaker 4: recent work has been on red flags and how we
Speaker 4: approach them, and this idea of red flags, green flags,
Speaker 4: beije flags have It's been huge on social media and
Speaker 4: it's huge in just our conversations with each other.
Speaker 5: Why do you think we are.
Speaker 4: So determined to have the kind of verifiable red flags
Speaker 4: that we can look at.
Speaker 5: Why are we drawn to this concept?
Speaker 2: Well, look, we live in a very fast paced world nowadays, right,
Speaker 2: and so quick decision making is often heralded in today's society.
Speaker 3: Work with friends and whatnot.
Speaker 2: And I think that's one of the main reasons why people,
Speaker 2: you know, do very much like the kind of red
Speaker 2: and green flag phenomena. The red and green flag phenomena
Speaker 2: initially started in the dating world, and why because a
Speaker 2: lot of people are very unhappy about their dating lives,
Speaker 2: and you know, many people don't want to commit anymore
Speaker 2: in relationships and and so you know a lot of
Speaker 2: people are getting very frustrated with that, and so it's
Speaker 2: always good to have a way of, you know, quickly
Speaker 2: being able to assess if a potential partner is you know,
Speaker 2: a green flag or a potential red flag in many
Speaker 2: different ways.
Speaker 3: And that's how it initially started.
Speaker 2: And so since then it's kind of, you know, it's
Speaker 2: gone from the dating world into other kind of social domains,
Speaker 2: so for example, work life, family and friends, romance and marriage.
Speaker 2: And people very much enjoy that, again just because they
Speaker 2: want to have quick and easy answers to you know,
Speaker 2: the dilemmas that they deal in their lives.
Speaker 3: However, I should put a side.
Speaker 2: Note to that. The quick decision making is also not
Speaker 2: good for us either, right, can trip us up, can
Speaker 2: lead to biased outcomes.
Speaker 3: And so that's why, you.
Speaker 2: Know, when when I wrote the book about red flags
Speaker 2: and green flags, I wanted to provide people with the
Speaker 2: red and green flags, the solid ones, you know, the
Speaker 2: well understood ones, the well researched read and green flags
Speaker 2: you know, and these are healthy indicators, and these are
Speaker 2: unhealthy indicators of behavior. But I also wanted to provide
Speaker 2: people with a process as well, to slow down their
Speaker 2: thinking and to be more mindful and reflective or why
Speaker 2: they do the things they do, so that they can,
Speaker 2: you know, not only make the right decisions in the moment,
Speaker 2: but also can be more reflective about their behaviors and
Speaker 2: hopefully lead to better decision making in the process.
Speaker 4: I loved that concept because something I worry about, and
Speaker 4: you've written about this, the idea that we're living in
Speaker 4: such a highly individualized culture that the way we're responding
Speaker 4: and interacting with each other changes because of that. And
Speaker 4: I think sometimes the way red flags are presented is
Speaker 4: you say a thing, you run the other way. And
Speaker 4: what I love is that your book entirely challenges that narrative,
Speaker 4: and your idea is no, no, no, no. You look at
Speaker 4: a red flag and there's kind of a there's a
Speaker 4: process to follow. Can you explain what the process is
Speaker 4: when you recognize a red flag?
Speaker 2: Exactly what I did in the book is I used
Speaker 2: red and green as an acronym. So red in this
Speaker 2: case stands for reflect, engage in deside. So don't run
Speaker 2: away immediately when you see a red flag. Now why
Speaker 2: do I say that? I think, and this is kind
Speaker 2: of the psychological effects of you know, quick decision making
Speaker 2: in today's world. You know, I think when we run
Speaker 2: away when we see the first red flag, it's not
Speaker 2: only that we just don't always make the best decisions,
Speaker 2: we actually lose our ability to be able to deal
Speaker 2: with difficult you know, situations in our lives. Our brain
Speaker 2: is like a muscle. You need to train it. That's why,
Speaker 2: you know, it's like a social skill that you need
Speaker 2: to develop. And yes, you have to face challenging such
Speaker 2: your life to become more resilient.
Speaker 3: And so that's why.
Speaker 2: That the red acronym of reflect engage society is when
Speaker 2: you see a red flag, don't immediately run away because
Speaker 2: nine out of ten times it won't be something that
Speaker 2: you probably have to run away from. Because when you
Speaker 2: see a red flag in somebody else, it could mean
Speaker 2: that you might be the red flag. And so when
Speaker 2: you reflect on it, Okay, what's happening to me right now?
Speaker 2: Why am I feeling this way? Why am I getting triggered?
Speaker 2: Then you can start to engage with it, either engage
Speaker 2: with it to figure out more. Is this truly a
Speaker 2: red flag that I'm seeing in somebody else? Or why
Speaker 2: am I getting so triggered about it? What's it about
Speaker 2: me that I you know that I don't like about
Speaker 2: this person? Or what I why do I see this
Speaker 2: in this other person? And so you start to reflect
Speaker 2: on that, and if you really reflect and become more introspective,
Speaker 2: you might see that it might have to do with
Speaker 2: something from your past or from a past experience, or
Speaker 2: you it's something that's inside of you and not in
Speaker 2: the other person. And I think that reflective capability is
Speaker 2: something that we're losing in a world that we're you know,
Speaker 2: when we're just kind of pushed to make these fast
Speaker 2: and quick decisions.
Speaker 3: And that's why I wanted to provide.
Speaker 2: That method there so that people could definitely become more
Speaker 2: mindful about their interactions with people. Because I also feel
Speaker 2: that you know, not just what we see in the
Speaker 2: dating world, but also what we see with friendships and family.
Speaker 2: People are so easy to let go of people nowadays,
Speaker 2: and human relationships are the cornerstone of our health, of
Speaker 2: our mental well being, you know, of our success in life.
Speaker 2: So I think that's the main reason why I came
Speaker 2: up with that, with that process to help people improve
Speaker 2: their decision making.
Speaker 4: I loved that concept that sometimes is actually reflecting something
Speaker 4: about you, and that there's a bit of a symbiotic
Speaker 4: relationship between what you're bringing to that particular red flag exactly.
Speaker 4: Then you've got a green flag, and there's kind of
Speaker 4: a process around that and your idea around what a
Speaker 4: green flag actually means?
Speaker 5: Can you break that down absolutely?
Speaker 2: So, as I mentioned before, green is also an acronym
Speaker 2: in the book, So green stands for genuine, respectful, elevating, empathetic,
Speaker 2: and nurturing. So basically, green behaviors have all or some
Speaker 2: of these attributes related to it. And so when we
Speaker 2: think of a behavior, can that behavior be elevating, could
Speaker 2: it be nurturing?
Speaker 3: Is it respectful?
Speaker 2: And so that's a way for us to evaluate if
Speaker 2: something is of unhealthier behavior. But also what I say
Speaker 2: in the book is that we, you know, having also
Speaker 2: us ourselves, we need to also make sure that we
Speaker 2: nurture the green behaviors that we see in people, because
Speaker 2: we often take them for granted, and when we you know,
Speaker 2: our brains are being naturally designed to identify warning signs
Speaker 2: in our.
Speaker 3: Lives as a way to keep us alive.
Speaker 2: So we're so much more tuned to the negative than
Speaker 2: to the positive. But if you want your positive behaviors
Speaker 2: or of that of others to continue, it's also so
Speaker 2: important to nurture those behaviors as well. And that's something
Speaker 2: that I think often gets forgotten this whole discussion around
Speaker 2: green flags. It's like you need to nurture them, you know,
Speaker 2: don't just take them for anted, you know, do something
Speaker 2: about that positively reinforce that behavior. I really like the
Speaker 2: fact that you listen to what I was saying, but
Speaker 2: also to what I was not saying. That really made
Speaker 2: me felt heard and listened to. So in those kind
Speaker 2: of interactions that you can have with people, you can
Speaker 2: also feed that back, and I think that's just another
Speaker 2: great way of sustaining positive relationships with people and ensuring
Speaker 2: that you know, those green behaviors continue as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you really added kind of a depth
Speaker 4: to that concept of green flags, because you can just
Speaker 4: think it's something that I like, and then breaking it down,
Speaker 4: there's a really deep psychological reason why we like it.
Speaker 4: You do divide the book into four sections. There's one
Speaker 4: on family and friendships, one on work relationships, one on dating,
Speaker 4: one on romantic relationships.
Speaker 5: And at the end of the book.
Speaker 4: You've got a bit of a kind of quiz about
Speaker 4: that you can do with a partner, any kind of
Speaker 4: person in your life. And I to look at some
Speaker 4: of the questions and it sort of gets you to
Speaker 4: look at your own personal red flag. So I thought
Speaker 4: I might bring two of mine to you, and I'd
Speaker 4: like you to help me work through them. So first
Speaker 4: my first red flag gossiping.
Speaker 2: OK.
Speaker 4: And when I read what you wrote about gossiping, you
Speaker 4: go into why we gossip, which I thought was great
Speaker 4: because that really validated why I do it in the
Speaker 4: first place. But do you want to kind of take
Speaker 4: us through when gossiping turns toxic at like when it
Speaker 4: is a red flag and when it's okay.
Speaker 2: Well, look, gossiping is part of human nature, right. We
Speaker 2: all like to gossip. And I think also what I
Speaker 2: mentioned in the book when I talk about gossiping, is
Speaker 2: that there's you know, different cultures have all the different
Speaker 2: types of names for people who gossip, and it's so
Speaker 2: ingrained into us cross culture. And so gossip serves a
Speaker 2: purpose in society, right, It's a very important purpose because
Speaker 2: it's a way for us to kind of feel also
Speaker 2: a little bit more safer when we feel uncertain, so
Speaker 2: we talk about things and we share things. It's also
Speaker 2: a way in the past, it was kind of like
Speaker 2: a more of a social control in a sense within
Speaker 2: a social system. If we wanted to make sure that
Speaker 2: people didn't do things that were bad for our survival
Speaker 2: within a social system, within a social group, then of
Speaker 2: course gossiping served as a way to punish people if
Speaker 2: they did something bad, right, and so you would be
Speaker 2: kind of no, I wouldn't say outcasted, but it was
Speaker 2: a way to have people understand, you know, ware you
Speaker 2: contributing to the social group that you belong to or not.
Speaker 2: And so again it's interesting people don't often think That's
Speaker 2: why I love going so deep into the construct of
Speaker 2: gossiping and what it serves again when we feel unsafe
Speaker 2: or you know, for example, in the workplace, when a
Speaker 2: lot of change happens, people gossip, right, And they don't
Speaker 2: do that because they have bad intent.
Speaker 3: They often do that because they kind of want.
Speaker 2: To bond with people. They're very uncertain of what's really
Speaker 2: happening to them, and so they talk and said did
Speaker 2: you hear about this? And did you hear about that?
Speaker 3: And so it does serve.
Speaker 2: A psychological purpose for why we engage in it. Now
Speaker 2: in the book, I dicyct gossip into two parts. Right,
Speaker 2: positive gossip, Yes, it exists. Positive gossip exists. So people,
Speaker 2: if you're out there listening, please do gossip, but do
Speaker 2: it in a positive way, and of course read the
Speaker 2: book to find out how to do that. So positive
Speaker 2: gossip is actually, you know, where you kind of you
Speaker 2: know when people say, well, your your reputation precedes here, right,
Speaker 2: we heard such great things about you, and and you know,
Speaker 2: you share stuff about the other person that you know,
Speaker 2: is you know, we'll put them in what we enhance
Speaker 2: the reputation and is something positive that you do. That's
Speaker 2: kind of more of the positive gossip that we engage in,
Speaker 2: which is always a good thing to do because again
Speaker 2: gossiping is part of human nature. But again gossiping can
Speaker 2: also be very negative. So when isn't a red flag
Speaker 2: is when you are using gossip to intentionally hurt somebody
Speaker 2: or their reputation. Unfortunate thing about gossip, either with friends, family,
Speaker 2: or in the workplace, it's hard to it's hard to
Speaker 2: go again, especially when it becomes part of a social
Speaker 2: construct or you know, it becomes part of the of
Speaker 2: the social discussion. You know, how do you go against
Speaker 2: gossip when it's not true? And so I think, you know,
Speaker 2: people should be aware of why they gossip in the
Speaker 2: first place. It's more reflective. I am I gossiping because
Speaker 2: I'm scared I want to hurt somebody?
Speaker 3: What's the reason why I'm doing this?
Speaker 2: That's not always easy for somebody, first of all, but
Speaker 2: I think it's very important to become more aware of
Speaker 2: why you gossip. And then second of all, you know,
Speaker 2: what is this gossip serving? Is it serving me? Is
Speaker 2: it serving the other person? Am I trying to be vindictive?
Speaker 2: You know? I think that's that's when when it's on
Speaker 2: the negative end, that's when I consider the gossip to
Speaker 2: be very negative. Again, coming back to in summary to
Speaker 2: saying that there's a positive aspect to it, but there's
Speaker 2: also very much a negative aspect to it, and I
Speaker 2: think as a guideline, where you hurt someone intentionally or
Speaker 2: you're trying to ruin someone's reputation, you know, that's that's
Speaker 2: when I definitely say it's a red flag, watch out
Speaker 2: for that.
Speaker 4: And I think one thing I've noticed in social situations
Speaker 4: around gossip is that if people are gossiping and you
Speaker 4: kind of want to go against it, so say they're
Speaker 4: all having a shared reality of a situation or a
Speaker 4: person and you want to go against it, you can
Speaker 4: feel quite disagreeable and as though you're going against the
Speaker 4: social cohesion of the moment, and.
Speaker 5: That's really hard.
Speaker 4: And so I think you write quite a bit about
Speaker 4: people pleases and how people pleasing comes up in when
Speaker 4: it comes to all sorts of red flags. And I
Speaker 4: think when I read about gossiping that came up for
Speaker 4: me that I thought, sometimes it's a way of kind
Speaker 4: of making a social situation more comfortable that you're like, oh,
Speaker 4: just join in and agree because I want people to
Speaker 4: like me. But I think we all know deep down
Speaker 4: when we are gossiped too, we're pretty sure we're going
Speaker 4: to be gossiped about and it's a pretty gross feeling.
Speaker 4: So I found that discussion of red flag fascinating. The
Speaker 4: other one that I wanted to talk to you about
Speaker 4: is the idea of being a bit of a selfish friend.
Speaker 4: So you write about the friend who doesn't reciprocate. That
Speaker 4: social relationships are based on reciprocity. That the idea is,
Speaker 4: you know, you buy dinner one time, I'll buy dinner
Speaker 4: the next time, and that goes for you know, levels
Speaker 4: of disclosure, that goes for all sorts of things.
Speaker 5: I wanted to ask you.
Speaker 4: Sometimes I think of it in terms of love languages
Speaker 4: that for example, I'm not a gift person. I don't
Speaker 4: like to receive gifts, and I don't I'm terrible at
Speaker 4: giving them because they're not important to me.
Speaker 5: With things like that, if I'm.
Speaker 4: Not a person who's going to give gifts when I've
Speaker 4: received them, or if I'm crap at organizing so I
Speaker 4: never booked the dinner, Am I a walking red flag?
Speaker 2: No? No, Look, I mean look, as you mentioned, every
Speaker 2: relationship you know is based on this level of reciprocity.
Speaker 3: It's what strengthens human bonds.
Speaker 2: I do something for you, you do something for me.
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that you know, there's there's there's various
Speaker 2: types of way of how we reciprocate to people, and
Speaker 2: you know, it doesn't mean that, for example, in a
Speaker 2: love language context, for example, that you know, I gift
Speaker 2: giving is something that somebody your partner might like and
Speaker 2: another person doesn't like. But it could also just be
Speaker 2: words of affirmation. It could also be a you know,
Speaker 2: physical physical touch. It could also be something that you
Speaker 2: do for another person. Doesn't have to be exactly in
Speaker 2: that kind of and you know, in the same way
Speaker 2: like I invite you, you invite me. Of course that
Speaker 2: should happen, but reciprocity happens, especially when the relationship becomes
Speaker 2: more complex and more deeper, that you reciprocate in many
Speaker 2: different ways. So it doesn't have to specifically.
Speaker 3: Be that you give something back and me to be
Speaker 3: at the same level.
Speaker 2: Maybe in the beginning of relationships and friendships you do that,
Speaker 2: but over time that changes, right, And in the book,
Speaker 2: I also mentioned about the emotional bank account that you
Speaker 2: build up with people. So and what is an emotional
Speaker 2: bank account? So basically, you know, you know, exchanges don't
Speaker 2: always happen in a fair way, and I mean or
Speaker 2: in a balanced way. Sometimes ticket in families and relationships,
Speaker 2: you know you need to do a little bit more
Speaker 2: for somebody else, or someone else does a little bit
Speaker 2: more for you. But if you've already built up an
Speaker 2: emotional bank account, you know that you can trust another
Speaker 2: person and that you you know you've got a very
Speaker 2: strong and long term relationship with another person, then there's
Speaker 2: something of a buffer there, as it may, and that
Speaker 2: buffer becomes your emotional bank account. So when there are
Speaker 2: times come that you need to give more, you do,
Speaker 2: but you do always still take into consideration that that
Speaker 2: will be reciprocated over time. But what can happen, and
Speaker 2: this is where the red flag aspect comes in, is
Speaker 2: that sometimes people get so used to you giving more
Speaker 2: than you actually taking and that unbalances the power relationship
Speaker 2: or the relationship you know in general, and then eventually
Speaker 2: it becomes like, oh, I'm expecting you to give this
Speaker 2: to me, And that's when you know, I think it's
Speaker 2: a good warning sign, a red flag to watch out
Speaker 2: for it when you know eventually things are not being
Speaker 2: reciprocated anymore.
Speaker 4: After this short break, doctor Fenwick and I discuss the
Speaker 4: challenge of toxic relationships with parents stay with us. There's
Speaker 4: a red flag in the book around the unavailable or
Speaker 4: unreliable parent, and this I know is huge in a
Speaker 4: lot of my friendships that people really struggle with how
Speaker 4: they are meant to engage with a parent who didn't
Speaker 4: give them what they need. Can you explain how you
Speaker 4: approach that red flag and the nuances that come with it?
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, Look, I mean I don't think that the
Speaker 2: chapter that I wrote. I think that was chapter number
Speaker 2: two that I wrote, the red flag number two. You know,
Speaker 2: it doesn't do complete justice to that, to the whole
Speaker 2: field of you know, neglect, abuse and not being not
Speaker 2: getting enough attention from a parent in your childhood. There's
Speaker 2: so many consequences to that, right, and so what I
Speaker 2: do do in that chapter is I do highlight some
Speaker 2: of the consequences. Again, I provide that psychodynamic perspective, So
Speaker 2: how that you know how your childhood and how for example,
Speaker 2: you know, having that experience not having the right you know,
Speaker 2: upbringing or not getting the right support as a child
Speaker 2: can actually have a huge impact on how you form relationships,
Speaker 2: but later in life, how you attach to people, emotional regulation,
Speaker 2: and also how you see yourself right, in terms of
Speaker 2: self esteem.
Speaker 5: Do you think that there's a clear way to tell.
Speaker 4: When it is time to end a relationship with a
Speaker 4: parent that because there's a big kind of trend about
Speaker 4: talking about cutting people off and when to just walk away,
Speaker 4: and you know, we know it Mayo. When we write
Speaker 4: a story about that, we get huge engagement, We get
Speaker 4: huge amounts of feedback from our audience saying that they
Speaker 4: are dealing with that. How do you, as a behavioral psychologist,
Speaker 4: think that somebody should go about making that decision?
Speaker 2: Look, that is a really personal decision, right, I mean
Speaker 2: breaking off of parents. But I do now see that
Speaker 2: you know a lot more people are thinking about it. Look,
Speaker 2: I think this is again, I'm going to bring it back.
Speaker 2: It's a personal question, back into the kind of red
Speaker 2: flag analogy. If your parental relationships, your family relationships are
Speaker 2: hurting your well being, your physical and mental well being,
Speaker 2: then I always say you should try to take distance.
Speaker 2: And it's not easy and it's not possible for everybody.
Speaker 2: We need to be mindful of that as well. Right,
Speaker 2: everyone can just say, oh, I'm going to say bye
Speaker 2: to my parents, But at the same time, I think
Speaker 2: we're also saying goodbye too easy. And that's where I
Speaker 2: want to challenge sometimes this idea of just you know,
Speaker 2: I've got an argument with my parents or my parents
Speaker 2: don't accept me as I am. But you know, everything
Speaker 2: takes time, you know, and then eventually it's about how
Speaker 2: you deal with your relationships in the future that actually
Speaker 2: make relationships successful. And again I come back to kind
Speaker 2: of this idea of that relationships are you know, your
Speaker 2: ability to form and sustain relationships is it's a muscle
Speaker 2: that you need to continue to strengthen. So distancing, I
Speaker 2: would always say when it comes to family, distancing is always,
Speaker 2: you know, is a good option if things are really
Speaker 2: not working out for you again, mental physical abuse, distance yourself.
Speaker 3: Let's talk about siblings.
Speaker 2: You know, there are so many siblings that I think
Speaker 2: more siblings actually take distance from each other and even
Speaker 2: speak to each other again. And actually that you know,
Speaker 2: kids distance themselves from their parents or let's you know,
Speaker 2: completely disconnect from their parents. But I do think taking
Speaker 2: time out and giving people time to become the person
Speaker 2: that they need to become, or to become more aware
Speaker 2: of why they behave the way they do, I think
Speaker 2: is really really important. I think time can heal many things,
Speaker 2: but not everything. But also at the same time, it's
Speaker 2: really important that you also consider, you know, how you
Speaker 2: want to continue relationship with your parents, maybe at the
Speaker 2: top point of time that you're really in a big
Speaker 2: argument with them, that you take distance from them, so
Speaker 2: I don't want to see you again. But maybe also
Speaker 2: there's parts of you that say, you know, you're still
Speaker 2: my mother, you're still my father. You know, I might
Speaker 2: not respect you anymore, or I might not you know,
Speaker 2: I love you anymore, but you're still part of me
Speaker 2: and I and I you know, I definitely want to
Speaker 2: see if we can find a way in the future
Speaker 2: so we can sele that. But again, there are many
Speaker 2: situations that we know of that are very terrible, like
Speaker 2: very abusive kind of relationships and where people really can't
Speaker 2: you accept anymore of being part of their lives or
Speaker 2: even wanting to be connected to them, and then those
Speaker 2: extreme situations. I do believe that, you know, completely distancing
Speaker 2: yourself from a parent is a viable option, But I
Speaker 2: would like to challenge this idea of you know, oh,
Speaker 2: you have a fight this distance to shell from them. No,
Speaker 2: I think with family it's a little bit harder than
Speaker 2: actually with maybe with friends.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I think sometimes people misunderstand boundaries a little bit.
Speaker 4: Where for example, I think a lot of people find
Speaker 4: that your relationship with your parents can be really complicated
Speaker 4: and quite loaded. And I always joke that when my
Speaker 4: siblings and my parents all get together, we.
Speaker 5: All regress to who we were as teenages.
Speaker 4: So sometimes you bring out the worst versions of each
Speaker 4: other and I become somebody that I'm not usually, and
Speaker 4: I annoy my brothers, and there's all this stuff going on,
Speaker 4: and you can kind of look at that and find it,
Speaker 4: you know, think oh, this is uncomfortable, so I'll just
Speaker 4: avoid it all together. But that idea of actually building
Speaker 4: a muscle, because they're also the longest relationships that you
Speaker 4: have in your entire life. Something else that comes up
Speaker 4: a lot in the social media space is this idea
Speaker 4: of the narcissist or a psychopath and what you're meant
Speaker 4: to do when you encounter them. And people love labeling
Speaker 4: people nists when they Yes, yes they're not as common
Speaker 4: as TikTok would have you believe. But the idea around psychopathy,
Speaker 4: for example, is that these people are not capable of empathy.
Speaker 4: They are cruel they'll create chaos, they'll use whatever emotional
Speaker 4: disclosures you make to them against you, So run away.
Speaker 4: What's your idea when it comes to those types of
Speaker 4: people that people really recognize as being narcissistic or kind
Speaker 4: of emotionally or just devoid of empathy.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean it depends.
Speaker 2: Look true narcissists, right, people that actually have narcissistic personality disorder,
Speaker 2: or who are psychopaths or very I mean, the prevalence
Speaker 2: in society is very low. Right, psychopathy is about one
Speaker 2: percent of the population. And again, you're right, just mention
Speaker 2: that we're so at the moment that we don't like
Speaker 2: something about somebody, we immediately label them as a narcissist. Right,
Speaker 2: Oh you don't do something for me, Oh, you're a narcissist.
Speaker 2: And I think that's the thing that we need to
Speaker 2: watch out for. So true narcissist if we engage with them,
Speaker 2: or a true psychopath. I mean, the best thing to
Speaker 2: do here is to stay away from them. And I
Speaker 2: think that's if you look at all the literature, and
Speaker 2: there's also there was an amazing book written called Snakes
Speaker 2: and Suits, which talks about psychopathy in the workplace. You
Speaker 2: only find psychopaths and narcissistem in prisons. You also find
Speaker 2: them in the boardroom. So there's different environments where we
Speaker 2: can encounter narsis. But you know, I think one of
Speaker 2: the guiding principles around dealing with narcissists is to try
Speaker 2: to stay away from them. They can be very destructive.
Speaker 2: If you try to go against them, they'll make it
Speaker 2: their lives sometimes to go against you. So I mean
Speaker 2: the key takeaway is stay away from them. I mean,
Speaker 2: that's that's the best thing that you can do. Or
Speaker 2: try to avoid them as much as possible, don't try
Speaker 2: to engage with them. That you know, I think would
Speaker 2: be the best advice, and I would even repeat in
Speaker 2: that perspective. But identifying narcissists and psychopaths, I mean, again,
Speaker 2: we can identify traits. What's very interesting is, you know,
Speaker 2: bringing it back into the boardroom situation. They often say that,
Speaker 2: you know, organizations tend to, you know, to have more
Speaker 2: narcissists than the average population does. But some studies and
Speaker 2: actually quote that in the book, you know about let's
Speaker 2: say one to five percent of narcissists and psychopaths. You
Speaker 2: can actually for social paths, you can actually find in
Speaker 2: an organization. But up to I think one study that
Speaker 2: I quoted was about twenty percent of some executives actually
Speaker 2: have narcissistic traits. So in some way these kind of
Speaker 2: narcissistic traits are being appreciate it especially when it comes
Speaker 2: to business and profit and do we always need to
Speaker 2: have empathy at work? Now? It seems also when we
Speaker 2: look into leadership literature that the higher we get into positions,
Speaker 2: the more power that we achieve, the less empathetic we become.
Speaker 2: So again, is your boss a narcissist or is he
Speaker 2: or she showing narcissistic traits such as less empathy towards
Speaker 2: other people? Because you need to make bigger decisions, I
Speaker 2: think that we need to be very careful about what
Speaker 2: we label as a being narcissistic or psychopathic, But from
Speaker 2: true narcissists I think we should stay away from.
Speaker 3: But yeah, the whole study, all the studies that.
Speaker 2: Talk about the impact of power on our emotions and
Speaker 2: decision making and on our behavior is fascinating because to
Speaker 2: some extent they resemble narcissistic traits and also psychopathic traits.
Speaker 4: As well, because you imagine that it's just those types
Speaker 4: of people go into those types of roles and then
Speaker 4: they thrive in it because you it's easy to make
Speaker 4: a decision about mass redundancies when you don't have amphithy
Speaker 4: for the people you're making redundant. But it's interesting that
Speaker 4: it can actually work the other way, that it's that
Speaker 4: power that then changes how you see people.
Speaker 2: And exactly.
Speaker 4: You write a lot about workplace dynamics and our behavior
Speaker 4: within it, and you talk about how it's particularly important
Speaker 4: to put boundaries in place at work because issues can
Speaker 4: arise when you become friends with your colleagues. And this
Speaker 4: is something in an all female workplace where it's creative
Speaker 4: and you're sharing personal stories. I have always ended up
Speaker 4: being friends with the people I work with. Can you
Speaker 4: explain how that can become an issue and how you're
Speaker 4: meant to walk that line?
Speaker 2: Oh, I just I recently got quoted in the CNN
Speaker 2: about this, and they use the headline that I said
Speaker 2: it was like, becoming friends at work is not the norm.
Speaker 3: People are just there to make money, into care, to take.
Speaker 2: Care for the success. And I stand behind that cot,
Speaker 2: I stand behind that car, and I'll tell you right. Look,
Speaker 2: of course, when you spend a lot of time with
Speaker 2: your friends, with your colleagues, you become close with them,
Speaker 2: and yes, you can become deat buddies and you can
Speaker 2: become really really good friends.
Speaker 3: It can happen, of course, it can happen.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, you know when people and
Speaker 2: this is why I kind of put out a bit
Speaker 2: of a warning sign, is you know, people are in
Speaker 2: the workplace to make money, they're there for their career,
Speaker 2: they're there for their survival. And I would say the
Speaker 2: majority of times people don't really show up with their
Speaker 2: true face. We all go to work with our professional
Speaker 2: identity on, with a professional mask, and so do we
Speaker 2: really get to see the real person who's there. Maybe
Speaker 2: the person can be so lovable and nice and shows
Speaker 2: us that, but I don't always think that the person
Speaker 2: has you know, will show up as the real person
Speaker 2: workplace and you never know why they do that, right,
Speaker 2: but we do know that they're there to make money
Speaker 2: and career. Some people might misuse your trust in the
Speaker 2: workplace to advance themselves or you know, in some occasions
Speaker 2: also to make sure that you might get fired or
Speaker 2: not get promoted so they can stay there in the
Speaker 2: workplace or get that promotion that they feel that they deserve.
Speaker 2: So I kind of want to say that it's when
Speaker 2: we try to build friends in the workplace, we're not
Speaker 2: building friends based on the social norm. We're also building
Speaker 2: friends based on the market norm. And I think that's
Speaker 2: something that we need to be more aware of and
Speaker 2: the fact that a lot of us don't bring our
Speaker 2: full true self to work, and I think that's where,
Speaker 2: you know, we need to be a little bit more mindful.
Speaker 2: Not saying that we definitely can't make friends at work,
Speaker 2: but we just need to be a little bit more
Speaker 2: mindful about you know, that people are not always showing
Speaker 2: up as they are, so take your time, you know.
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that you can't make friends.
Speaker 2: Take your time, get to know your friends, get closer
Speaker 2: to them, but always, you know, be a little bit
Speaker 2: mindful about making friends in the workplace.
Speaker 4: I think that's the that's a really interesting perspective that
Speaker 4: because there are people that come to work and you
Speaker 4: think they are very boundaried that it's like, Okay, you
Speaker 4: come to work and your life outside of work is
Speaker 4: your life. And I'm always kind of jealous of those
Speaker 4: people because I'm terrible at it. But you're right, that
Speaker 4: it can blur the social dynamics when there's power and
Speaker 4: money and ambition involved, and yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. Another
Speaker 4: example that you have for a red flag in a
Speaker 4: workplace is a workplace not respecting your boundaries. And you
Speaker 4: kind of talk about how people It goes both ways
Speaker 4: that a workplace.
Speaker 5: Can you know, ask can you work on Sunday? Can
Speaker 5: you work on Sunday?
Speaker 4: But when you actually break it down and get people
Speaker 4: to reflect, you've got to ask you the one who's
Speaker 4: actually struggling to set the boundaries yourself?
Speaker 5: Are you saying yes?
Speaker 4: And I'm definitely the kind of person who is a
Speaker 4: people pleaser and perfectionistic, so I want to I'm like, yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 4: I'll do all the things. And then you're sort of like,
Speaker 4: hold on, I feel like my boundaries aren't being respected.
Speaker 5: What kind of.
Speaker 4: Things can we do to make sure that we're setting
Speaker 4: up that dynamic where things are really clear?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that's also very hard thing to do.
Speaker 2: I mean, you can have you can have policies in place,
Speaker 2: and you can have good work practices in place, you know,
Speaker 2: and some teams and some organizations do an amazing job
Speaker 2: at that, Like they say look at five o'clock, you
Speaker 2: go home, or you choose which do you want to
Speaker 2: work from home? You balance things like yourself. But not
Speaker 2: every organization can work that way. But I think the
Speaker 2: key thing here is first of all, good work hygiene,
Speaker 2: so understanding of having good practices in the first place
Speaker 2: and policies, but also allowing flexibility in there. I think
Speaker 2: that's so important because people, again it comes back to
Speaker 2: that kind of law of reciprocity. If I give you
Speaker 2: more flexibility, you probably will give me more of your
Speaker 2: time in return. But when you can do that and
Speaker 2: when you cont that, so I almost say that to
Speaker 2: work with boundaries, sometimes it's also good to give people
Speaker 2: the flexibility to make their own decisions and then people
Speaker 2: might go a little bit more for you without feeling
Speaker 2: that they're actually overstepping their own boundaries.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and perhaps that's one of the reasons it feels
Speaker 4: like the workplace has changed a little bit in recent
Speaker 4: years and people are getting a little bit more you know,
Speaker 4: the whole quiet quitting trend, and people are getting a
Speaker 4: lot more strict about what they believe a workplace is
Speaker 4: entitled to ask from them.
Speaker 5: Because I think at least that during.
Speaker 4: COVID, the workforce did a lot to help businesses in
Speaker 4: that you know, all of us were like, Okay, we'll
Speaker 4: change our lives to work from home, and we will.
Speaker 4: You know, some of us had to move into a
Speaker 4: different kind of place where we had an off where
Speaker 4: we could work from home, which was not something we
Speaker 4: had ever had to do before. And so it's sort
Speaker 4: of like, you know, the workforce felt like they had adapted,
Speaker 4: and then you look at your workplace and say, okay, well.
Speaker 5: What are you going to do for me now?
Speaker 4: And I think gen z who have come in sort
Speaker 4: of post that work change are then having a very
Speaker 4: different experience and.
Speaker 5: Very confused about what work was like before.
Speaker 4: And not not kind of expecting it to be a
Speaker 4: Monday to Friday nine to five situation.
Speaker 3: Well, look, I think there's a lot to be said
Speaker 3: about that. And you know, during the I think the.
Speaker 2: Pandemic when we you know, this term came up called
Speaker 2: the Great Resignation, and you know, people are like disgrundled
Speaker 2: with having to work so much and dealing with the
Speaker 2: enserrtainty of COVID nineteen at the time.
Speaker 3: But one of the reasons why.
Speaker 2: A lot of people actually left at the organization is
Speaker 2: because that disgruntleman already existed prior to the pandemic. So
Speaker 2: you know, people were very already very.
Speaker 3: You know, not that engaged. If you look at the
Speaker 3: Gallop surveys.
Speaker 2: That came out, you know, completely disengaged, you know, highly
Speaker 2: disengaged or disengaged. In total, it was the majority of
Speaker 2: the workforce. And so people already very unhappy with this
Speaker 2: kind of hustling, like you had to work so many
Speaker 2: hours and you know, go over time, and you know,
Speaker 2: I think what COVID did is made people more reflective,
Speaker 2: made more made them more mindful of what's really important
Speaker 2: to me. I have a virus out there that is
Speaker 2: going to potentially kill me, and you're asking me to
Speaker 2: work twelve hours a day sitting in my home.
Speaker 3: No, thank you.
Speaker 2: I'm going to take care of a parent or a
Speaker 2: cat or whatever. So people changed their priorities. And why
Speaker 2: a lot of people, not only did the workforce laid
Speaker 2: off a lot of people, why a lot of people
Speaker 2: decided just to quit, is because they were already very
Speaker 2: unhappy with how things were going. And I think this
Speaker 2: changed the dynamic right in terms of the relationship and
Speaker 2: the power between the employer and the employee. Now you
Speaker 2: said something interesting about gen Z because of course now
Speaker 2: you know, I talk about it in the book. You know,
Speaker 2: quiet quitting has become a new phenomena quiet holiday, and
Speaker 2: I didn't mention that in the book. But that's also
Speaker 2: a big thing where a lot of people are just
Speaker 2: kind of, oh, you told me I can work remotely
Speaker 2: and then their own you know, the Bahamas and wait
Speaker 2: a minute, so you're.
Speaker 3: Supposed to be working.
Speaker 2: I am working, but where are you.
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm in the Bahamas right now. So that
Speaker 3: also has become a thing.
Speaker 2: And I think that the gen Z generation just from
Speaker 2: their mindset is their parents were the Millennials maybe gen xers,
Speaker 2: and they saw their parents work so extremely hard, they
Speaker 2: often didn't see their parents at home.
Speaker 3: And they have grown up now in a world where
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: There is there is no certainty for them in many
Speaker 2: different ways, financially, work wise, relationship wise. So why should
Speaker 2: I give my ole when I'm not getting anything in return.
Speaker 2: So they're prioritizing mental health, they're prioritizing their personal lives,
Speaker 2: you know, as much as possible.
Speaker 3: And you know, many people don't want to have the
Speaker 3: nine to five job.
Speaker 2: They see that a nine to five job can't even
Speaker 2: pay the bills nowadays. So a lot of younger people
Speaker 2: nowadays want to become actors, They want to become influencers.
Speaker 2: So they do the job because it potentially might get
Speaker 2: them to do them something else in the future. They
Speaker 2: don't feel that connection and commitment to the organization, but
Speaker 2: at the same time, they do expect you know that
Speaker 2: that you know that they're treated well and that they're
Speaker 2: not overwork. They have a good manager, there's you know,
Speaker 2: there's diversity and inclusion policies in place that you know,
Speaker 2: help them feel that they can bring their whole sales
Speaker 2: to work.
Speaker 3: Otherwise they're going to work for you.
Speaker 2: And I think that that dynamic has forced organizations to
Speaker 2: rethink their strategy when working with employees, especially in a
Speaker 2: post pandemic era.
Speaker 4: When we return, doctor Fenwick and I dive into dating.
Speaker 4: Did you know that most ghosting happens on the third
Speaker 4: date because I didn't stay with us. I want to
Speaker 4: briefly touch on dating because, as you said at the beginning,
Speaker 4: that is where a lot of this red flag stuff
Speaker 4: started from. And you talk about some of the dating
Speaker 4: red flags, and then apply that same process, and I
Speaker 4: wanted to talk about some of the parts of dating
Speaker 4: that are particularly contentious and how you can make a
Speaker 4: decision about whether or not that particular thing is a
Speaker 4: red flag for you. One thing I've heard from a
Speaker 4: lot of men, and I've never asked anyone about this,
Speaker 4: but I've heard from a lot of men, and you
Speaker 4: write about it in the book when you're seeing someone
Speaker 4: and you can't make a decision about it because you're
Speaker 4: not feeling anything. And I'd never seen this acknowledged and
Speaker 4: I'd never seen it normalized.
Speaker 5: Can you talk me through?
Speaker 4: So, if you're seeing someone and you feel nothing, how
Speaker 4: do you decide whether or not that is a red
Speaker 4: flag or whether that's okay?
Speaker 2: Wonderful question.
Speaker 3: Let me give you a bit of some context to
Speaker 3: this point.
Speaker 2: That why I mentioned it in the book. So I'm
Speaker 2: a very data driven person, and the twenty four chapters
Speaker 2: that I wrote are based on my most viral content
Speaker 2: that went viral on all my platforms, meaning that these
Speaker 2: were truly topics that people I'm most concerned about. One
Speaker 2: of them was I don't feel anything anymore right? Oh
Speaker 2: I like you, my mind says I like you, But
Speaker 2: my heart says nothing, you know, is there something wrong
Speaker 2: with me? And so I broke that down not feeling
Speaker 2: anything into potential red flags and green flags and why
Speaker 2: can happen, you know, from reasons of mental health issues
Speaker 2: all the way to what people don't realize, for example,
Speaker 2: is over usage of social media and on mobile phones,
Speaker 2: and you know how basically that overstimulation of dopamine can
Speaker 2: lead to us not feeling as much as normal, And
Speaker 2: so people don't realize that, And so I break down
Speaker 2: in that chapter, why is it that a lot of
Speaker 2: us are not feeling anything? Sometimes it's just temporary and
Speaker 2: we deal with it and it passes by. Just think
Speaker 2: of a stressful moment, death in the family. You know,
Speaker 2: it's just kind of like a coping strategy. Sometimes it
Speaker 2: could be something more serious, and then that's something that
Speaker 2: you need to kind of further investigate with a medical
Speaker 2: professional and see if there's anything wrong there. But it
Speaker 2: could also just be for example, because we're just feeling
Speaker 2: so overwhelmed and you know, at the same time, you know,
Speaker 2: we're just using also we're using our mobile phones too much,
Speaker 2: and there's and I provide some insights from studies there
Speaker 2: also that you know over mobile phone usage and social
Speaker 2: media over usage actually can lead us to feeling much
Speaker 2: more less and feeling much more numb. So I wanted
Speaker 2: to in that chapter to explain when is feeling nothing
Speaker 2: a potential green flag and when is it a red flag,
Speaker 2: so that people can become more mindful, because on social media,
Speaker 2: the response is when I came out with because I
Speaker 2: made a video on that on that topic, it was like,
Speaker 2: you're so right, why am I not feeling anything? It's
Speaker 2: like I've become completely numb and why is that? And
Speaker 2: that's why I wanted to provide some perspectives there and
Speaker 2: also what we can do about it and how we
Speaker 2: can start feeling again.
Speaker 4: And so say you are dating someone and you objectively
Speaker 4: you're looking at them and you think I find them attractive,
Speaker 4: I find them interesting, I enjoy our time together, but
Speaker 4: I'm not feeling anything. How do you overcome that? And
Speaker 4: how do you make a decision when there's not that
Speaker 4: gut instinct.
Speaker 2: That's well, I mean again, the reason why you're not
Speaker 2: feeling anything in the first place, It could be multiple
Speaker 2: reasons there, right, So that needs to be that needs
Speaker 2: to be thoroughly investigated, which sometimes requires also a medical
Speaker 2: professional to see as well, because if you don't feel
Speaker 2: anything at all, it could be an indicator that something
Speaker 2: else is happening with you.
Speaker 3: If it's just.
Speaker 2: Because of how you're living right now, you're just kind
Speaker 2: of living your day day by day, you're going into
Speaker 2: the motus of things, and you don't really spend a
Speaker 2: lot of time of going very because I think that's
Speaker 2: one of the big problems nowadays, is that we're not
Speaker 2: building deep enough connect right We're not really getting to
Speaker 2: know the other person.
Speaker 3: If we're very quickly deciding.
Speaker 2: That, you know, we don't want to you know, I
Speaker 2: don't want to be with you because I see this
Speaker 2: first red flag where you know, I just like to
Speaker 2: keep it very superficial and let's just keep it sexual.
Speaker 2: You're not really getting to know the person at a
Speaker 2: more emotional level. And I think that is also another
Speaker 2: reason why we might not be feeding things.
Speaker 3: Because we're it's a quick forable.
Speaker 2: We're happy with the exchange that physical and intimacy exchange,
Speaker 2: but we're not looking for something much more deeper because
Speaker 2: our lives are busier. We have our friends, you know,
Speaker 2: that we want to invest in, and we.
Speaker 3: Don't want drama. I think a lot of people are
Speaker 3: now saying.
Speaker 2: To themselves, I don't want drama, so I don't want
Speaker 2: to deal with relationships. But again, that mental muscle comes
Speaker 2: to play the moment we just keep things superficial, less
Speaker 2: likely we are to build a more deeper emotional connection.
Speaker 2: So coming back to your answer from that perspective, I
Speaker 2: would say, spend time.
Speaker 3: To get to know the person that you're dealing with.
Speaker 2: Understand your compatibility beyond the physical compatibility, look for spiritual compatibility,
Speaker 2: look for emotional compatibility, value compatibility physical, well, not physical
Speaker 2: I already mentioned, but look at other kinds of compatibility
Speaker 2: with another person so that you can get to know
Speaker 2: each other.
Speaker 4: Do you think the other part of it is, because
Speaker 4: I've heard you talk about this that with dating now,
Speaker 4: we feel like we constantly have infinite options. So when
Speaker 4: we are seeing someone in the back of our mind,
Speaker 4: we're also thinking, yeah, but there's also a million other
Speaker 4: people in my phone, Like, do you think we're not
Speaker 4: kind of getting that depth because we're a little bit distracted.
Speaker 2: You hit the nail on the head. I think one
Speaker 2: of the reasons why people are finding it hard to
Speaker 2: find someone they can be with for a longer period
Speaker 2: of time. Is dating apps have created this illusion and
Speaker 2: I emphasize the word of loosing here because it is
Speaker 2: an illusion that there's so many other options out there,
Speaker 2: like there's a limited less amount of people that we
Speaker 2: can connect with and date with, and so when something
Speaker 2: doesn't go right with a person that we're dating at
Speaker 2: the moment, we just get you know, we get rid
Speaker 2: of them.
Speaker 3: We don't like them.
Speaker 2: Oh it's too much drama, so I'll just move on
Speaker 2: to somebody else. I think that's one of the major
Speaker 2: reasons why people are finding it much more harder.
Speaker 3: To date in today's world.
Speaker 2: Then again, they're losing their ability to strengthen their social
Speaker 2: muscle or their mental ability to kind of deal with
Speaker 2: challenging situations, which then becomes kind of like a vicious
Speaker 2: circle to the extent that eventually you get so used
Speaker 2: to switching partners that eventually you I mean, I won't
Speaker 2: say it becomes impossible, because it's much more harder to
Speaker 2: build more sustainable relationship with every every relationship, you know,
Speaker 2: every long term relationship is going to deal with some
Speaker 2: form of drama, right, and some a little bit more
Speaker 2: than others, and especially love relationships because when we are
Speaker 2: emotionally connected romantically connected to people, you know, parts of
Speaker 2: our past and attachment styles of course immerse and and
Speaker 2: you know, I often like to say that when we
Speaker 2: fall in love, we should also be mindful of not
Speaker 2: to falling in love with the good things about people,
Speaker 2: but we also need to fall in love with people's
Speaker 2: developmental spaces as well. You know, We're part of being
Speaker 2: in a long term relationship is also helping each other
Speaker 2: to heal in that perspective, to build trust and to
Speaker 2: learn again. And I think a lot of us in
Speaker 2: today's world are probably because we're just there for the transaction.
Speaker 2: We're so much more focused on the pleasure and not
Speaker 2: on the complete you know, the completeness of being with
Speaker 2: somebody else. And then when that comes out, you know,
Speaker 2: and it eventually does in every relationship that comes out
Speaker 2: to some extent, you know, then people get afraid and
Speaker 2: they don't know what to do, and then again that
Speaker 2: pushes them away as well. So this is why I
Speaker 2: wrote the book. I can see this from a behavioral
Speaker 2: perspective happening. I think it's it's a scary development, But
Speaker 2: I do think we have the skills and capabilities inside
Speaker 2: of us to go against it and to do something
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 3: So that's why I really.
Speaker 2: Want people to become more mindful of their interaction with
Speaker 2: people and make the most understand that, Yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: challenge is part of our lives, and you know, we
Speaker 2: need to if we want to form strong relationships, we
Speaker 2: need to do a little bit more than just bouncing
Speaker 2: from one person to another. But technology, unfortunately today gives
Speaker 2: us the feeling that we can replace people easily. But
Speaker 2: the other thing that I also mentioned in the book
Speaker 2: is how technology has been designed and how that also
Speaker 2: makes us more willing to mistreat people. And that's even
Speaker 2: more concerning.
Speaker 4: I loved hearing about that in the context of dating,
Speaker 4: because I think we hear it a lot about social
Speaker 4: media and the fact that we kind of dehumanize people.
Speaker 4: But it's so true that on an app, I mean,
Speaker 4: even the idea of ghosting someone is quite dehumanizing. You're
Speaker 4: no longer really seeing them as a person with feelings,
Speaker 4: and like you're seeing them as a text message that
Speaker 4: yeah yeah, yeah, and just just as an option rather
Speaker 4: than a fully fledged human being. And I think that
Speaker 4: that's such a such an interesting thing to look at
Speaker 4: The last thing I want to ask you about is
Speaker 4: something that has come up a lot in recent years,
Speaker 4: which is ethical non monogamy. And we've heard more and
Speaker 4: more about open relationships. And I really liked the breakdown
Speaker 4: of this because there are some context where somebody asking
Speaker 4: to open up a relationship could be a red flag
Speaker 4: and there are some times when it could be a
Speaker 4: grain flag. Could you break down what someone should consider
Speaker 4: when they're thinking about opening up a relationship.
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, the open relationships has become is increasing, right,
Speaker 2: the amount of people that want to be in an
Speaker 2: open relationship for multiple reasons. And again I think also
Speaker 2: because we believe that there's so many people out there
Speaker 2: and you know, try before you die. Let's say, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: this kind of this mindset that is emerging. And so
Speaker 2: even people that have been in long term relationships nowadays
Speaker 2: are saying, you know, you know, they're proposing either to
Speaker 2: open up the relationship and sometimes even deciding if that's
Speaker 2: not going to happen, just to kind of break up
Speaker 2: and move away. And I think a lot of people
Speaker 2: that receive that question, that's why I wrote that chapter.
Speaker 2: Is that what you you do when your partner asks
Speaker 2: you should we open up the relationship? And this is
Speaker 2: again a very personal question. I address the phenomena of
Speaker 2: why people are opening up with more their relationships and
Speaker 2: and what you can do about it, like, for example,
Speaker 2: if you're if you're not okay with it, then just
Speaker 2: say no, right then, I don't want this.
Speaker 3: It doesn't fit with my values. This is not something
Speaker 3: that I'd want.
Speaker 2: And are you okay? Are you? Do you stand behind
Speaker 2: your decisions and also understanding that that might end your
Speaker 2: long term partnership or your relationship. But again I also
Speaker 2: put in you know, suggestions and talking about how you
Speaker 2: can consider maybe having an open relationship. Now I'm not
Speaker 2: promoting it, but I'm saying how you can consider it,
Speaker 2: and and saying, well, look, you know, I never thought
Speaker 2: about that. I am, I really care about my relationship.
Speaker 2: One thing we also need to be mindful of is
Speaker 2: every long term relationship, you know, people's needs evolve and
Speaker 2: change happens to everybody, and sometimes that comes also to
Speaker 2: the to the intimacy level as well. And so I
Speaker 2: I think it's really good that a partner can voice
Speaker 2: their evolving needs to the other partner instead of cheating,
Speaker 2: because to you is the worst thing that you can do.
Speaker 3: So voice your.
Speaker 2: Interest in your desires and discuss that with your partner
Speaker 2: in the most respectful and mindful way possible. If your
Speaker 2: partner is open to that, then at least you know,
Speaker 2: then discuss it and see how that works. And so
Speaker 2: in the book I also say, well, if it's something
Speaker 2: you like, you'd like to try as well, go ahead
Speaker 2: with it, but also put in some contingencies. And this
Speaker 2: is where I kind of, you know, I add some
Speaker 2: kind of gray areas into it, like put in some
Speaker 2: contingencies and say I've tried this, but I don't like it.
Speaker 2: And I also want to agree with you that if
Speaker 2: I've tried it and I don't like it, that we
Speaker 2: can go back to where we were or decide to
Speaker 2: move away from each other. So what am I trying
Speaker 2: to do there is I'm trying to open up that
Speaker 2: conversation in a way that can help people to navigate
Speaker 2: that discussion and not just be a black and white discussion.
Speaker 3: For some people it's a.
Speaker 2: Yes or no. But because more and more people are
Speaker 2: asking this in a relationship, how can you navigate that discussion?
Speaker 2: Because maybe it might just be a moment, a moment,
Speaker 2: a momentarily thing of a partner, and maybe that partner
Speaker 2: probably you know, will be okay to stay with you,
Speaker 2: even not opening up the relationship. It's about having the
Speaker 2: dialogue and having the conversation and doing that with being
Speaker 2: as least triggered as possible, because every relationship is about
Speaker 2: communication in the end, and that's kind of what I
Speaker 2: wanted to provide in that chapter, to help people know
Speaker 2: how to navigate that conversation.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think for a lot of people it
Speaker 4: would be you might have an instinctive reaction to for
Speaker 4: it to feel like a rejection or to feel like
Speaker 4: chating when when it's not. And I mean, I think
Speaker 4: a thing throughout the whole book is the complexity and
Speaker 4: the nuances in relationships and the fact that you have
Speaker 4: to tackle them if you want to build really really strong,
Speaker 4: long lasting, deep ones. I want to thank you so
Speaker 4: much for your time today. I could speak to you forever.
Speaker 3: Should we should do a follow up?
Speaker 5: Yes, definitely, definitely. I'll bring I'll bring some.
Speaker 4: New red flags that I've discovered about myself. I hope
Speaker 4: doctor Fenwick takes me up on that offer. So do
Speaker 4: you feel like you've had some of your ideas challenged,
Speaker 4: like you have a bit of a more nuanced and
Speaker 4: considered understanding of what other people's behaviors mean and how
Speaker 4: to interpret something that might be screaming red flag but
Speaker 4: might actually be a good.
Speaker 5: Opportunity for some self reflection.
Speaker 4: After this conversation, I'm far more inclined to pause when
Speaker 4: I encounter a red flag in someone else, and to
Speaker 4: think twice and have a bit of a moment to
Speaker 4: look within before bolting or judging, or, as I've been
Speaker 4: known to do, gossiping, and that's the bad kind of gossip.
Speaker 4: I'll probably stick to the positive kind that doctor Fenwick
Speaker 4: says is okay. Whether it's at work, or with our
Speaker 4: families or in romantic relationships. There's an increasing trend I've
Speaker 4: noticed to set boundaries that might end up isolating us,
Speaker 4: and doctor Fenwick's work is a powerful reminder to err
Speaker 4: on the side of connection, of empathy, and of learning
Speaker 4: more about others and about ourselves. The executive producer of
Speaker 4: No Filter is Nama Brown. Audio production and sound design
Speaker 4: by Jacob Brownd. Maya Friedman is the creator and the
Speaker 4: host of No Filter, and it was a joy to
Speaker 4: sit in the big chair for her Today, I'm Claire Stevens.
Speaker 5: Thanks for listening.