WEBVTT - When The 'Red Flag' Isn't About Them, It's About You 0:00:10.405 --> 0:00:14.165 You're listening to a Mother and me a podcast. Mama 0:00:14.245 --> 0:00:16.965 Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that 0:00:17.005 --> 0:00:20.165 this podcast is recorded on. Hey there, Before we start 0:00:20.205 --> 0:00:23.525 today's episode, I just want to say that you are 0:00:23.565 --> 0:00:26.605 going to be hearing from some wonderful Muma Mea voices 0:00:26.645 --> 0:00:29.845 over the next few weeks as I work on another project. 0:00:30.245 --> 0:00:33.645 Hollywayin wright, Claire Stevens a Nama Brown, who is the 0:00:33.685 --> 0:00:36.125 executive producer of this show, are all going to be 0:00:36.165 --> 0:00:39.525 sitting in my chair for a few weeks and doing 0:00:39.685 --> 0:00:42.565 the same wonderful interviews that you know and love from 0:00:42.565 --> 0:00:45.045 No Filter. There are some great conversations coming your way 0:00:45.165 --> 0:00:49.245 about red and green flags in relationships, sex and porn, addiction, 0:00:50.045 --> 0:00:54.565 escaping from a religious cult, narcissism, sobriety, and more. You'll 0:00:54.565 --> 0:00:55.645 be hearing from me soon. 0:00:56.485 --> 0:01:00.685 Enjoy when we run away, when we see the first 0:01:00.765 --> 0:01:03.085 bread flag. It's not only that we just don't always 0:01:03.125 --> 0:01:06.405 make the best decisions. We actually lose our ability to 0:01:06.645 --> 0:01:09.165 be able to deal with difficult situations in our lives. 0:01:09.525 --> 0:01:12.445 Our brain is like a muscle. You need to train it. 0:01:12.845 --> 0:01:14.925 That's why you know, it's like a social skill that 0:01:14.965 --> 0:01:16.925 you need to develop, and yes, you have to face 0:01:17.045 --> 0:01:20.165 challenging situations your in life to become more resilient. 0:01:27.285 --> 0:01:31.925 From mommea you're listening to no filter. I'm Claire Stevens, 0:01:32.045 --> 0:01:35.445 and a not so fun fact about me is that 0:01:35.525 --> 0:01:40.405 sometimes I can be a dirty, dirty gossip. I like 0:01:40.485 --> 0:01:43.485 to think that I don't engage in a mean form 0:01:43.525 --> 0:01:44.085 of gossip. 0:01:44.565 --> 0:01:47.125 I'm more just like to think. 0:01:46.965 --> 0:01:51.005 That I'm fascinated by people and their motivations, and really 0:01:51.045 --> 0:01:56.405 I'm engaging in quite high level behavioral analysis. But I 0:01:56.485 --> 0:02:01.165 probably have gossiped in a toxic way before, and who. 0:02:00.965 --> 0:02:02.005 Amongst us as not? 0:02:02.965 --> 0:02:06.805 And if I'm being really honest and just totally being 0:02:06.885 --> 0:02:10.325 forthcoming about all the flaws in my character. I also 0:02:10.405 --> 0:02:13.565 worry that I sometimes have a tendency to be a 0:02:13.565 --> 0:02:18.085 bit of a selfish friend. I'm always forgetting things like birthdays, 0:02:18.205 --> 0:02:21.925 and I'm terrible at gift giving. I sometimes think there 0:02:21.925 --> 0:02:25.205 can be what my guest today refers to as an 0:02:25.285 --> 0:02:29.645 imbalance of reciprocity in my friendships. I often feel like 0:02:29.725 --> 0:02:34.525 I'm the one who owes someone something, So are these 0:02:34.645 --> 0:02:39.965 red flags about me? If someone met me and noticed 0:02:40.045 --> 0:02:43.925 these things, should they just run for the hills, because 0:02:44.965 --> 0:02:48.085 these are things that if you were on TikTok or 0:02:48.125 --> 0:02:51.085 Instagram and you saw a video about red flags, they 0:02:51.165 --> 0:02:51.885 might come up. 0:02:52.445 --> 0:02:55.125 Am I just a walking, talking red flag. 0:02:55.925 --> 0:03:00.765 Well, according to doctor Ali Fenwick, a very engaging behavioral 0:03:00.805 --> 0:03:04.685 scientist who has written a book called Red Flags, Green Flags, 0:03:04.925 --> 0:03:10.525 Modern Psychology for everyday drama, it's not that simple because 0:03:10.605 --> 0:03:14.685 in doctor Fenwick's framework, the red or green flags we 0:03:14.725 --> 0:03:18.285 see in someone else might actually say more about us 0:03:18.645 --> 0:03:23.325 than them. Like most people, I first came across the 0:03:23.405 --> 0:03:27.965 concept of red flags in the context of romantic relationships 0:03:27.965 --> 0:03:33.125 and dating. So red, green, and even beige flags are everywhere, 0:03:33.405 --> 0:03:36.965 and we tend to use them as shortcuts to make 0:03:37.045 --> 0:03:43.085 judgments about people and to decide to just totally abandon 0:03:43.205 --> 0:03:46.765 mission when you're meeting someone if they say something or 0:03:46.845 --> 0:03:51.405 indicate some sort of behavior that just doesn't align with 0:03:51.485 --> 0:03:55.245 what we think a good person does. We do get 0:03:55.245 --> 0:04:00.685 into flags in romantic relationships, but doctor Fenwick applies his 0:04:00.805 --> 0:04:05.405 work to all our relationships, including our relationships with our 0:04:05.445 --> 0:04:08.885 parents and siblings, our workplace, and more. 0:04:09.485 --> 0:04:10.405 So let's jump in. 0:04:11.285 --> 0:04:15.205 I started by asking doctor Fenwick what a behavioral scientist 0:04:15.725 --> 0:04:16.445 actually is. 0:04:18.045 --> 0:04:22.565 Yes, a behavioral scientist basically studies the behavior and thinking 0:04:22.765 --> 0:04:27.365 and nature of human beings, either individually or within groups. 0:04:27.405 --> 0:04:29.885 And of course, as a behavioral scientist, you know, you 0:04:29.965 --> 0:04:32.645 want to understand what are those factors that really influence 0:04:32.685 --> 0:04:36.045 people's behaviors, either from the individual or from the environment. 0:04:36.245 --> 0:04:38.205 And we look at that because we want to understand 0:04:38.285 --> 0:04:41.085 why people behave the way they do, and also how 0:04:41.085 --> 0:04:44.325 can we influence people's behaviors to make sometimes better decision 0:04:44.365 --> 0:04:46.845 for themselves. So I think that, in a nutshell, is 0:04:46.885 --> 0:04:48.885 what behavioral scientist does. 0:04:49.765 --> 0:04:54.725 You're well known for the way you communicate quite complex 0:04:55.085 --> 0:05:02.605 psychological ideas on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook and LinkedIn. I study 0:05:02.645 --> 0:05:06.205 psychology not at the level that you have, but I 0:05:06.245 --> 0:05:08.725 know that a crucial part of it is that ability 0:05:08.885 --> 0:05:14.125 to communicate science in a way that the lay people 0:05:14.325 --> 0:05:18.725 can understand. When did you start sharing your knowledge on 0:05:18.765 --> 0:05:19.405 social media? 0:05:19.445 --> 0:05:19.965 And why? 0:05:20.925 --> 0:05:24.645 Yeah, phenomenal question. Look, we don't really understand the gen 0:05:24.765 --> 0:05:27.925 Z generation that well, especially in the classroom, and we 0:05:27.925 --> 0:05:29.565 we also have a you know, because our work as 0:05:29.605 --> 0:05:32.165 a professor at a university, it was like, you know, 0:05:32.165 --> 0:05:35.285 how do we better engage that younger generation in the classroom, 0:05:35.285 --> 0:05:37.605 because their attention span is you know, it's more and 0:05:37.685 --> 0:05:40.045 more lower than you know that we're normally used to 0:05:40.165 --> 0:05:43.485 with adults, for example, the way they engage with content, 0:05:43.565 --> 0:05:45.805 the way they have to be taught. So, you know, 0:05:45.845 --> 0:05:47.885 there was this question like, Ali, could you go and 0:05:47.925 --> 0:05:50.765 investigate this because you know, you're a psychologist here that 0:05:50.765 --> 0:05:53.085 our business school see if you can help us out 0:05:53.125 --> 0:05:54.725 a little bit. So of course, you know what what 0:05:54.765 --> 0:05:56.405 I thought, what was the best place to start? And 0:05:56.405 --> 0:05:58.445 I thought, let me just go online on social media. 0:05:59.085 --> 0:06:01.885 I started basically just you know, looking into how people 0:06:02.005 --> 0:06:04.805 engage and what were they doing online, how are they communicating, 0:06:04.845 --> 0:06:05.925 how were they you. 0:06:05.885 --> 0:06:07.045 Know, consuming content? 0:06:07.565 --> 0:06:10.485 And then eventually I was like, know, could I try 0:06:10.645 --> 0:06:14.685 to teach people online or get across psychology in a 0:06:14.685 --> 0:06:18.125 way that is engaging to them in such an online environment, 0:06:18.125 --> 0:06:20.005 which of course is very different than what you normally 0:06:20.045 --> 0:06:22.405 do in a classroom. And so I just kind of 0:06:22.405 --> 0:06:24.685 put that on myself to try it out, and of course, 0:06:24.685 --> 0:06:27.285 with a lot of trial and error, I eventually came 0:06:27.325 --> 0:06:29.165 to I don't want to call it a model, but 0:06:29.205 --> 0:06:31.805 I eventually found my way on social media to get 0:06:32.445 --> 0:06:35.525 content across in a very engaging way that really related 0:06:35.565 --> 0:06:37.445 to people, right, And I think that was the reason 0:06:37.485 --> 0:06:40.645 why I got online to start sharing my content and 0:06:40.645 --> 0:06:42.125 doing it in the way that I do today. 0:06:42.765 --> 0:06:45.965 What year was it when you started to really lean 0:06:46.005 --> 0:06:48.445 in to your content? 0:06:49.725 --> 0:06:52.805 Right? So I started this because the question came to 0:06:52.845 --> 0:06:55.725 me in twenty twenty twenty one around I would say, 0:06:55.965 --> 0:06:56.765 three years ago. 0:06:56.685 --> 0:07:00.365 So post okay, so interestingly post COVID, so a time 0:07:00.525 --> 0:07:05.765 when people had actually leant into social media even deeper 0:07:05.805 --> 0:07:07.605 than they had previously. 0:07:08.165 --> 0:07:09.045 Yes, absolutely, Yes. 0:07:09.365 --> 0:07:12.245 Also during the pandemic, I was also very present on 0:07:12.285 --> 0:07:14.765 the news. You know, I was giving people a behavioral 0:07:14.805 --> 0:07:19.005 perspective to the pandemic, and so I spent a good 0:07:19.085 --> 0:07:22.565 year on the news talking about the psychological effects of 0:07:22.645 --> 0:07:25.285 the pandemic on people, or you know, how can we 0:07:25.285 --> 0:07:27.925 make working from home more effective? Or how will you 0:07:27.925 --> 0:07:30.085 know all kinds of phenomena that we saw happening in 0:07:30.085 --> 0:07:31.645 the world, like why are people going out and buying 0:07:31.685 --> 0:07:34.765 toilet paper for example. I was there to give people 0:07:34.805 --> 0:07:37.405 a behavioral perspective to why that was happening. So I 0:07:37.445 --> 0:07:41.005 think that already started before the actual social media engagement 0:07:41.045 --> 0:07:43.085 actually happened. Once I started investigating that. 0:07:43.205 --> 0:07:47.605 Question, and do you worry because obviously you're somebody with 0:07:48.525 --> 0:07:52.245 a very high level qualification, you're somebody with a lot 0:07:52.285 --> 0:07:56.805 of experience teaching, a lot of experience in research. Do 0:07:56.885 --> 0:08:01.445 you worry that there are some people who may misinterpret 0:08:01.445 --> 0:08:05.845 the research or use certain buzzwords from psychology and repackage 0:08:05.885 --> 0:08:08.925 it in a way that might be dangerous online. 0:08:09.365 --> 0:08:11.805 I think you're asking a very valid questions. First of all, 0:08:12.365 --> 0:08:16.525 social media is an unfiltered environment, right, so anyone can 0:08:16.645 --> 0:08:18.805 jump in and just kind of put stuff out there, 0:08:19.045 --> 0:08:21.845 and that by itself is not always you know, it's 0:08:22.205 --> 0:08:24.365 you know, that could be potentially dangerous because you know, 0:08:24.445 --> 0:08:27.045 people are just saying stuff and you see people talking 0:08:27.085 --> 0:08:29.765 about you know, foods and nutrition and all these kinds 0:08:29.765 --> 0:08:32.405 of things that might not be even even that healthy 0:08:32.445 --> 0:08:35.205 for you. So I think from that perspective, anything that 0:08:35.245 --> 0:08:37.365 you put online, you know, you should take it with 0:08:37.445 --> 0:08:40.405 a grain of salt. When it comes to psychology, I mean, 0:08:40.605 --> 0:08:42.365 of course, it's a lot of buzzwords and a lot 0:08:42.365 --> 0:08:45.245 of trends of course being thrown around left and right, 0:08:45.645 --> 0:08:47.645 and I often think that people don't really understand the 0:08:47.725 --> 0:08:50.645 underlying factors that underlie that, or if there's no underlying 0:08:50.685 --> 0:08:55.245 factors at all that underlie that. So, yes, that exists online. 0:08:55.445 --> 0:08:57.365 I also see the positive side of that as well. 0:08:57.405 --> 0:09:00.565 I also think that because people now are much more 0:09:00.645 --> 0:09:04.565 aware about, you know, why people treat each other like 0:09:04.605 --> 0:09:07.285 they do in relationships, or why do people feel the 0:09:07.285 --> 0:09:10.325 way they do as an individual, I think people have 0:09:10.365 --> 0:09:13.125 become much more aware of themselves in. 0:09:13.165 --> 0:09:14.925 The relationship that they have with other people. 0:09:15.245 --> 0:09:18.325 And I think, you know, that is also a positive 0:09:18.325 --> 0:09:20.045 aspect of it as well. But you're right, you know, 0:09:20.125 --> 0:09:23.525 I think social media has this unfiltered aspect to it, 0:09:23.565 --> 0:09:25.845 which makes it sometimes you know, we need to be 0:09:25.885 --> 0:09:27.685 a bit more critical about what we see online. 0:09:27.805 --> 0:09:30.725 Yeah, yeah, And I think that a lot of your 0:09:30.765 --> 0:09:34.205 recent work has been on red flags and how we 0:09:34.485 --> 0:09:37.565 approach them, and this idea of red flags, green flags, 0:09:37.605 --> 0:09:41.485 beije flags have It's been huge on social media and 0:09:41.725 --> 0:09:45.005 it's huge in just our conversations with each other. 0:09:45.845 --> 0:09:48.325 Why do you think we are. 0:09:48.325 --> 0:09:54.285 So determined to have the kind of verifiable red flags 0:09:54.325 --> 0:09:55.485 that we can look at. 0:09:55.485 --> 0:09:57.165 Why are we drawn to this concept? 0:09:58.445 --> 0:10:02.325 Well, look, we live in a very fast paced world nowadays, right, 0:10:02.365 --> 0:10:06.405 and so quick decision making is often heralded in today's society. 0:10:06.445 --> 0:10:07.805 Work with friends and whatnot. 0:10:08.885 --> 0:10:11.045 And I think that's one of the main reasons why people, 0:10:11.325 --> 0:10:13.325 you know, do very much like the kind of red 0:10:13.325 --> 0:10:16.445 and green flag phenomena. The red and green flag phenomena 0:10:16.445 --> 0:10:19.725 initially started in the dating world, and why because a 0:10:19.725 --> 0:10:22.085 lot of people are very unhappy about their dating lives, 0:10:22.125 --> 0:10:24.245 and you know, many people don't want to commit anymore 0:10:24.285 --> 0:10:27.125 in relationships and and so you know a lot of 0:10:27.125 --> 0:10:29.845 people are getting very frustrated with that, and so it's 0:10:29.845 --> 0:10:32.205 always good to have a way of, you know, quickly 0:10:32.285 --> 0:10:36.205 being able to assess if a potential partner is you know, 0:10:36.245 --> 0:10:38.325 a green flag or a potential red flag in many 0:10:38.325 --> 0:10:38.965 different ways. 0:10:39.245 --> 0:10:41.045 And that's how it initially started. 0:10:41.565 --> 0:10:43.645 And so since then it's kind of, you know, it's 0:10:43.645 --> 0:10:46.245 gone from the dating world into other kind of social domains, 0:10:46.245 --> 0:10:49.965 so for example, work life, family and friends, romance and marriage. 0:10:50.205 --> 0:10:53.005 And people very much enjoy that, again just because they 0:10:53.005 --> 0:10:55.325 want to have quick and easy answers to you know, 0:10:55.405 --> 0:10:57.125 the dilemmas that they deal in their lives. 0:10:57.485 --> 0:10:59.885 However, I should put a side. 0:10:59.685 --> 0:11:03.485 Note to that. The quick decision making is also not 0:11:03.565 --> 0:11:05.845 good for us either, right, can trip us up, can 0:11:05.965 --> 0:11:07.245 lead to biased outcomes. 0:11:07.365 --> 0:11:09.085 And so that's why, you. 0:11:09.045 --> 0:11:11.085 Know, when when I wrote the book about red flags 0:11:11.085 --> 0:11:13.485 and green flags, I wanted to provide people with the 0:11:13.525 --> 0:11:16.085 red and green flags, the solid ones, you know, the 0:11:16.165 --> 0:11:18.965 well understood ones, the well researched read and green flags 0:11:18.965 --> 0:11:20.965 you know, and these are healthy indicators, and these are 0:11:21.045 --> 0:11:23.925 unhealthy indicators of behavior. But I also wanted to provide 0:11:23.925 --> 0:11:26.965 people with a process as well, to slow down their 0:11:27.045 --> 0:11:30.685 thinking and to be more mindful and reflective or why 0:11:30.805 --> 0:11:33.085 they do the things they do, so that they can, 0:11:33.205 --> 0:11:35.325 you know, not only make the right decisions in the moment, 0:11:35.365 --> 0:11:39.205 but also can be more reflective about their behaviors and 0:11:39.805 --> 0:11:42.045 hopefully lead to better decision making in the process. 0:11:42.725 --> 0:11:48.445 I loved that concept because something I worry about, and 0:11:48.485 --> 0:11:52.565 you've written about this, the idea that we're living in 0:11:52.605 --> 0:11:58.965 such a highly individualized culture that the way we're responding 0:11:58.965 --> 0:12:02.405 and interacting with each other changes because of that. And 0:12:03.005 --> 0:12:06.845 I think sometimes the way red flags are presented is 0:12:07.325 --> 0:12:09.725 you say a thing, you run the other way. And 0:12:09.885 --> 0:12:14.445 what I love is that your book entirely challenges that narrative, 0:12:14.525 --> 0:12:16.725 and your idea is no, no, no, no. You look at 0:12:16.725 --> 0:12:20.685 a red flag and there's kind of a there's a 0:12:20.725 --> 0:12:24.445 process to follow. Can you explain what the process is 0:12:24.605 --> 0:12:26.645 when you recognize a red flag? 0:12:27.565 --> 0:12:30.925 Exactly what I did in the book is I used 0:12:31.085 --> 0:12:34.085 red and green as an acronym. So red in this 0:12:34.165 --> 0:12:38.125 case stands for reflect, engage in deside. So don't run 0:12:38.165 --> 0:12:41.245 away immediately when you see a red flag. Now why 0:12:41.285 --> 0:12:43.805 do I say that? I think, and this is kind 0:12:43.845 --> 0:12:46.765 of the psychological effects of you know, quick decision making 0:12:46.765 --> 0:12:50.165 in today's world. You know, I think when we run 0:12:50.205 --> 0:12:52.725 away when we see the first red flag, it's not 0:12:52.765 --> 0:12:55.085 only that we just don't always make the best decisions, 0:12:55.405 --> 0:12:58.245 we actually lose our ability to be able to deal 0:12:58.285 --> 0:13:01.685 with difficult you know, situations in our lives. Our brain 0:13:01.765 --> 0:13:04.965 is like a muscle. You need to train it. That's why, 0:13:05.085 --> 0:13:06.925 you know, it's like a social skill that you need 0:13:06.965 --> 0:13:09.205 to develop. And yes, you have to face challenging such 0:13:09.765 --> 0:13:11.845 your life to become more resilient. 0:13:12.405 --> 0:13:13.645 And so that's why. 0:13:13.765 --> 0:13:16.645 That the red acronym of reflect engage society is when 0:13:16.645 --> 0:13:20.125 you see a red flag, don't immediately run away because 0:13:20.205 --> 0:13:22.485 nine out of ten times it won't be something that 0:13:22.525 --> 0:13:24.845 you probably have to run away from. Because when you 0:13:24.885 --> 0:13:26.965 see a red flag in somebody else, it could mean 0:13:27.085 --> 0:13:29.445 that you might be the red flag. And so when 0:13:29.485 --> 0:13:32.245 you reflect on it, Okay, what's happening to me right now? 0:13:32.285 --> 0:13:34.885 Why am I feeling this way? Why am I getting triggered? 0:13:36.165 --> 0:13:38.285 Then you can start to engage with it, either engage 0:13:38.325 --> 0:13:40.365 with it to figure out more. Is this truly a 0:13:40.365 --> 0:13:43.925 red flag that I'm seeing in somebody else? Or why 0:13:43.965 --> 0:13:46.725 am I getting so triggered about it? What's it about 0:13:46.765 --> 0:13:48.925 me that I you know that I don't like about 0:13:48.965 --> 0:13:51.365 this person? Or what I why do I see this 0:13:51.405 --> 0:13:53.405 in this other person? And so you start to reflect 0:13:53.445 --> 0:13:56.605 on that, and if you really reflect and become more introspective, 0:13:57.645 --> 0:13:59.165 you might see that it might have to do with 0:13:59.285 --> 0:14:02.005 something from your past or from a past experience, or 0:14:02.205 --> 0:14:04.885 you it's something that's inside of you and not in 0:14:04.965 --> 0:14:07.805 the other person. And I think that reflective capability is 0:14:07.845 --> 0:14:10.765 something that we're losing in a world that we're you know, 0:14:10.805 --> 0:14:12.805 when we're just kind of pushed to make these fast 0:14:12.845 --> 0:14:13.685 and quick decisions. 0:14:13.965 --> 0:14:16.085 And that's why I wanted to provide. 0:14:16.285 --> 0:14:18.845 That method there so that people could definitely become more 0:14:18.925 --> 0:14:22.445 mindful about their interactions with people. Because I also feel 0:14:22.485 --> 0:14:24.205 that you know, not just what we see in the 0:14:24.285 --> 0:14:26.485 dating world, but also what we see with friendships and family. 0:14:26.485 --> 0:14:29.165 People are so easy to let go of people nowadays, 0:14:29.245 --> 0:14:32.365 and human relationships are the cornerstone of our health, of 0:14:32.405 --> 0:14:35.125 our mental well being, you know, of our success in life. 0:14:35.365 --> 0:14:38.525 So I think that's the main reason why I came 0:14:38.605 --> 0:14:40.845 up with that, with that process to help people improve 0:14:40.885 --> 0:14:41.645 their decision making. 0:14:42.205 --> 0:14:46.205 I loved that concept that sometimes is actually reflecting something 0:14:46.245 --> 0:14:49.125 about you, and that there's a bit of a symbiotic 0:14:49.245 --> 0:14:54.365 relationship between what you're bringing to that particular red flag exactly. 0:14:54.405 --> 0:14:58.485 Then you've got a green flag, and there's kind of 0:14:59.085 --> 0:15:01.965 a process around that and your idea around what a 0:15:02.005 --> 0:15:03.445 green flag actually means? 0:15:03.485 --> 0:15:05.725 Can you break that down absolutely? 0:15:05.805 --> 0:15:08.285 So, as I mentioned before, green is also an acronym 0:15:08.325 --> 0:15:14.485 in the book, So green stands for genuine, respectful, elevating, empathetic, 0:15:14.605 --> 0:15:19.005 and nurturing. So basically, green behaviors have all or some 0:15:19.085 --> 0:15:22.645 of these attributes related to it. And so when we 0:15:22.725 --> 0:15:26.165 think of a behavior, can that behavior be elevating, could 0:15:26.205 --> 0:15:27.405 it be nurturing? 0:15:27.565 --> 0:15:28.485 Is it respectful? 0:15:28.845 --> 0:15:30.885 And so that's a way for us to evaluate if 0:15:30.925 --> 0:15:34.005 something is of unhealthier behavior. But also what I say 0:15:34.005 --> 0:15:36.805 in the book is that we, you know, having also 0:15:36.925 --> 0:15:39.085 us ourselves, we need to also make sure that we 0:15:39.165 --> 0:15:42.685 nurture the green behaviors that we see in people, because 0:15:42.685 --> 0:15:44.805 we often take them for granted, and when we you know, 0:15:44.885 --> 0:15:48.845 our brains are being naturally designed to identify warning signs 0:15:48.845 --> 0:15:49.165 in our. 0:15:49.085 --> 0:15:50.605 Lives as a way to keep us alive. 0:15:51.525 --> 0:15:54.005 So we're so much more tuned to the negative than 0:15:54.005 --> 0:15:56.965 to the positive. But if you want your positive behaviors 0:15:57.045 --> 0:15:59.725 or of that of others to continue, it's also so 0:15:59.765 --> 0:16:02.725 important to nurture those behaviors as well. And that's something 0:16:02.725 --> 0:16:05.405 that I think often gets forgotten this whole discussion around 0:16:05.405 --> 0:16:07.965 green flags. It's like you need to nurture them, you know, 0:16:08.005 --> 0:16:10.725 don't just take them for anted, you know, do something 0:16:10.725 --> 0:16:14.725 about that positively reinforce that behavior. I really like the 0:16:14.765 --> 0:16:17.285 fact that you listen to what I was saying, but 0:16:17.285 --> 0:16:19.685 also to what I was not saying. That really made 0:16:19.685 --> 0:16:22.645 me felt heard and listened to. So in those kind 0:16:22.645 --> 0:16:25.285 of interactions that you can have with people, you can 0:16:25.325 --> 0:16:27.885 also feed that back, and I think that's just another 0:16:27.925 --> 0:16:31.405 great way of sustaining positive relationships with people and ensuring 0:16:31.445 --> 0:16:33.885 that you know, those green behaviors continue as well. 0:16:34.325 --> 0:16:36.805 Yeah, I think you really added kind of a depth 0:16:36.965 --> 0:16:39.845 to that concept of green flags, because you can just 0:16:39.885 --> 0:16:44.165 think it's something that I like, and then breaking it down, 0:16:44.205 --> 0:16:49.205 there's a really deep psychological reason why we like it. 0:16:50.005 --> 0:16:53.565 You do divide the book into four sections. There's one 0:16:53.565 --> 0:16:56.885 on family and friendships, one on work relationships, one on dating, 0:16:57.005 --> 0:16:59.405 one on romantic relationships. 0:16:59.645 --> 0:17:01.365 And at the end of the book. 0:17:01.085 --> 0:17:04.005 You've got a bit of a kind of quiz about 0:17:05.085 --> 0:17:07.685 that you can do with a partner, any kind of 0:17:07.925 --> 0:17:10.445 person in your life. And I to look at some 0:17:10.525 --> 0:17:12.485 of the questions and it sort of gets you to 0:17:12.525 --> 0:17:15.125 look at your own personal red flag. So I thought 0:17:15.205 --> 0:17:18.485 I might bring two of mine to you, and I'd 0:17:18.525 --> 0:17:23.045 like you to help me work through them. So first 0:17:23.405 --> 0:17:25.325 my first red flag gossiping. 0:17:26.885 --> 0:17:27.045 OK. 0:17:27.405 --> 0:17:33.085 And when I read what you wrote about gossiping, you 0:17:33.525 --> 0:17:36.365 go into why we gossip, which I thought was great 0:17:36.445 --> 0:17:39.965 because that really validated why I do it in the 0:17:39.965 --> 0:17:42.725 first place. But do you want to kind of take 0:17:42.845 --> 0:17:49.165 us through when gossiping turns toxic at like when it 0:17:49.365 --> 0:17:52.125 is a red flag and when it's okay. 0:17:52.405 --> 0:17:55.285 Well, look, gossiping is part of human nature, right. We 0:17:55.325 --> 0:17:58.045 all like to gossip. And I think also what I 0:17:58.125 --> 0:18:00.365 mentioned in the book when I talk about gossiping, is 0:18:00.365 --> 0:18:03.045 that there's you know, different cultures have all the different 0:18:03.045 --> 0:18:05.925 types of names for people who gossip, and it's so 0:18:06.205 --> 0:18:10.045 ingrained into us cross culture. And so gossip serves a 0:18:10.085 --> 0:18:13.845 purpose in society, right, It's a very important purpose because 0:18:14.165 --> 0:18:16.205 it's a way for us to kind of feel also 0:18:16.245 --> 0:18:18.805 a little bit more safer when we feel uncertain, so 0:18:18.885 --> 0:18:21.725 we talk about things and we share things. It's also 0:18:21.805 --> 0:18:24.325 a way in the past, it was kind of like 0:18:24.365 --> 0:18:27.045 a more of a social control in a sense within 0:18:27.085 --> 0:18:29.725 a social system. If we wanted to make sure that 0:18:29.765 --> 0:18:32.605 people didn't do things that were bad for our survival 0:18:32.725 --> 0:18:36.845 within a social system, within a social group, then of 0:18:36.885 --> 0:18:40.165 course gossiping served as a way to punish people if 0:18:40.165 --> 0:18:42.205 they did something bad, right, and so you would be 0:18:42.285 --> 0:18:44.005 kind of no, I wouldn't say outcasted, but it was 0:18:44.045 --> 0:18:47.005 a way to have people understand, you know, ware you 0:18:47.125 --> 0:18:49.885 contributing to the social group that you belong to or not. 0:18:50.685 --> 0:18:53.485 And so again it's interesting people don't often think That's 0:18:53.485 --> 0:18:56.525 why I love going so deep into the construct of 0:18:56.565 --> 0:19:00.005 gossiping and what it serves again when we feel unsafe 0:19:00.245 --> 0:19:01.925 or you know, for example, in the workplace, when a 0:19:01.965 --> 0:19:04.845 lot of change happens, people gossip, right, And they don't 0:19:04.845 --> 0:19:06.645 do that because they have bad intent. 0:19:07.045 --> 0:19:08.925 They often do that because they kind of want. 0:19:08.725 --> 0:19:11.205 To bond with people. They're very uncertain of what's really 0:19:11.205 --> 0:19:13.245 happening to them, and so they talk and said did 0:19:13.245 --> 0:19:14.925 you hear about this? And did you hear about that? 0:19:15.285 --> 0:19:17.085 And so it does serve. 0:19:17.325 --> 0:19:20.485 A psychological purpose for why we engage in it. Now 0:19:20.525 --> 0:19:23.285 in the book, I dicyct gossip into two parts. Right, 0:19:23.365 --> 0:19:28.045 positive gossip, Yes, it exists. Positive gossip exists. So people, 0:19:28.045 --> 0:19:30.325 if you're out there listening, please do gossip, but do 0:19:30.365 --> 0:19:31.805 it in a positive way, and of course read the 0:19:31.845 --> 0:19:34.085 book to find out how to do that. So positive 0:19:34.125 --> 0:19:36.765 gossip is actually, you know, where you kind of you 0:19:36.765 --> 0:19:40.605 know when people say, well, your your reputation precedes here, right, 0:19:40.765 --> 0:19:43.885 we heard such great things about you, and and you know, 0:19:43.925 --> 0:19:46.525 you share stuff about the other person that you know, 0:19:46.925 --> 0:19:49.005 is you know, we'll put them in what we enhance 0:19:49.005 --> 0:19:52.245 the reputation and is something positive that you do. That's 0:19:52.325 --> 0:19:54.765 kind of more of the positive gossip that we engage in, 0:19:55.125 --> 0:19:57.365 which is always a good thing to do because again 0:19:57.485 --> 0:20:01.005 gossiping is part of human nature. But again gossiping can 0:20:01.005 --> 0:20:03.165 also be very negative. So when isn't a red flag 0:20:03.285 --> 0:20:07.605 is when you are using gossip to intentionally hurt somebody 0:20:07.965 --> 0:20:11.805 or their reputation. Unfortunate thing about gossip, either with friends, family, 0:20:11.925 --> 0:20:14.445 or in the workplace, it's hard to it's hard to 0:20:14.485 --> 0:20:17.445 go again, especially when it becomes part of a social 0:20:17.485 --> 0:20:20.525 construct or you know, it becomes part of the of 0:20:20.565 --> 0:20:23.285 the social discussion. You know, how do you go against 0:20:23.285 --> 0:20:25.845 gossip when it's not true? And so I think, you know, 0:20:25.885 --> 0:20:28.925 people should be aware of why they gossip in the 0:20:28.965 --> 0:20:31.925 first place. It's more reflective. I am I gossiping because 0:20:31.965 --> 0:20:34.005 I'm scared I want to hurt somebody? 0:20:34.205 --> 0:20:35.725 What's the reason why I'm doing this? 0:20:36.405 --> 0:20:38.685 That's not always easy for somebody, first of all, but 0:20:38.765 --> 0:20:40.645 I think it's very important to become more aware of 0:20:40.685 --> 0:20:42.925 why you gossip. And then second of all, you know, 0:20:43.285 --> 0:20:46.965 what is this gossip serving? Is it serving me? Is 0:20:47.005 --> 0:20:50.045 it serving the other person? Am I trying to be vindictive? 0:20:50.445 --> 0:20:52.725 You know? I think that's that's when when it's on 0:20:52.805 --> 0:20:55.285 the negative end, that's when I consider the gossip to 0:20:55.325 --> 0:20:58.245 be very negative. Again, coming back to in summary to 0:20:58.285 --> 0:21:00.485 saying that there's a positive aspect to it, but there's 0:21:00.485 --> 0:21:02.965 also very much a negative aspect to it, and I 0:21:03.005 --> 0:21:06.165 think as a guideline, where you hurt someone intentionally or 0:21:06.165 --> 0:21:09.605 you're trying to ruin someone's reputation, you know, that's that's 0:21:09.645 --> 0:21:11.525 when I definitely say it's a red flag, watch out 0:21:11.565 --> 0:21:11.765 for that. 0:21:12.525 --> 0:21:16.325 And I think one thing I've noticed in social situations 0:21:17.085 --> 0:21:21.365 around gossip is that if people are gossiping and you 0:21:22.845 --> 0:21:24.725 kind of want to go against it, so say they're 0:21:24.765 --> 0:21:27.125 all having a shared reality of a situation or a 0:21:27.205 --> 0:21:30.085 person and you want to go against it, you can 0:21:30.125 --> 0:21:33.965 feel quite disagreeable and as though you're going against the 0:21:34.005 --> 0:21:36.925 social cohesion of the moment, and. 0:21:36.805 --> 0:21:37.765 That's really hard. 0:21:38.365 --> 0:21:41.125 And so I think you write quite a bit about 0:21:41.165 --> 0:21:44.645 people pleases and how people pleasing comes up in when 0:21:44.645 --> 0:21:46.645 it comes to all sorts of red flags. And I 0:21:46.685 --> 0:21:50.965 think when I read about gossiping that came up for 0:21:51.045 --> 0:21:54.925 me that I thought, sometimes it's a way of kind 0:21:54.965 --> 0:21:57.805 of making a social situation more comfortable that you're like, oh, 0:21:57.965 --> 0:22:01.045 just join in and agree because I want people to 0:22:01.245 --> 0:22:06.365 like me. But I think we all know deep down 0:22:06.725 --> 0:22:10.725 when we are gossiped too, we're pretty sure we're going 0:22:10.805 --> 0:22:13.885 to be gossiped about and it's a pretty gross feeling. 0:22:15.525 --> 0:22:20.725 So I found that discussion of red flag fascinating. The 0:22:20.805 --> 0:22:23.325 other one that I wanted to talk to you about 0:22:24.285 --> 0:22:28.325 is the idea of being a bit of a selfish friend. 0:22:28.965 --> 0:22:34.685 So you write about the friend who doesn't reciprocate. That 0:22:35.165 --> 0:22:39.245 social relationships are based on reciprocity. That the idea is, 0:22:39.525 --> 0:22:42.085 you know, you buy dinner one time, I'll buy dinner 0:22:42.165 --> 0:22:44.765 the next time, and that goes for you know, levels 0:22:44.765 --> 0:22:47.125 of disclosure, that goes for all sorts of things. 0:22:48.725 --> 0:22:50.565 I wanted to ask you. 0:22:51.525 --> 0:22:53.965 Sometimes I think of it in terms of love languages 0:22:54.085 --> 0:22:57.245 that for example, I'm not a gift person. I don't 0:22:57.285 --> 0:22:59.805 like to receive gifts, and I don't I'm terrible at 0:22:59.845 --> 0:23:01.765 giving them because they're not important to me. 0:23:03.405 --> 0:23:07.445 With things like that, if I'm. 0:23:07.205 --> 0:23:09.725 Not a person who's going to give gifts when I've 0:23:09.725 --> 0:23:13.205 received them, or if I'm crap at organizing so I 0:23:13.245 --> 0:23:16.605 never booked the dinner, Am I a walking red flag? 0:23:18.445 --> 0:23:22.005 No? No, Look, I mean look, as you mentioned, every 0:23:22.005 --> 0:23:25.565 relationship you know is based on this level of reciprocity. 0:23:25.605 --> 0:23:27.285 It's what strengthens human bonds. 0:23:27.565 --> 0:23:29.325 I do something for you, you do something for me. 0:23:29.845 --> 0:23:32.445 It doesn't mean that you know, there's there's there's various 0:23:32.445 --> 0:23:35.405 types of way of how we reciprocate to people, and 0:23:35.565 --> 0:23:37.685 you know, it doesn't mean that, for example, in a 0:23:37.725 --> 0:23:41.205 love language context, for example, that you know, I gift 0:23:41.205 --> 0:23:43.765 giving is something that somebody your partner might like and 0:23:43.805 --> 0:23:46.165 another person doesn't like. But it could also just be 0:23:46.245 --> 0:23:48.845 words of affirmation. It could also be a you know, 0:23:49.005 --> 0:23:51.605 physical physical touch. It could also be something that you 0:23:51.645 --> 0:23:54.205 do for another person. Doesn't have to be exactly in 0:23:54.285 --> 0:23:56.645 that kind of and you know, in the same way 0:23:56.765 --> 0:23:59.005 like I invite you, you invite me. Of course that 0:23:59.045 --> 0:24:02.325 should happen, but reciprocity happens, especially when the relationship becomes 0:24:02.365 --> 0:24:05.965 more complex and more deeper, that you reciprocate in many 0:24:05.965 --> 0:24:09.525 different ways. So it doesn't have to specifically. 0:24:08.805 --> 0:24:11.285 Be that you give something back and me to be 0:24:11.325 --> 0:24:12.005 at the same level. 0:24:12.005 --> 0:24:15.605 Maybe in the beginning of relationships and friendships you do that, 0:24:15.685 --> 0:24:18.165 but over time that changes, right, And in the book, 0:24:18.205 --> 0:24:21.005 I also mentioned about the emotional bank account that you 0:24:21.045 --> 0:24:24.125 build up with people. So and what is an emotional 0:24:24.165 --> 0:24:27.245 bank account? So basically, you know, you know, exchanges don't 0:24:27.245 --> 0:24:30.805 always happen in a fair way, and I mean or 0:24:30.885 --> 0:24:34.365 in a balanced way. Sometimes ticket in families and relationships, 0:24:34.405 --> 0:24:36.005 you know you need to do a little bit more 0:24:36.005 --> 0:24:38.285 for somebody else, or someone else does a little bit 0:24:38.285 --> 0:24:40.645 more for you. But if you've already built up an 0:24:40.685 --> 0:24:42.925 emotional bank account, you know that you can trust another 0:24:42.965 --> 0:24:45.805 person and that you you know you've got a very 0:24:45.845 --> 0:24:48.765 strong and long term relationship with another person, then there's 0:24:48.805 --> 0:24:51.845 something of a buffer there, as it may, and that 0:24:51.885 --> 0:24:54.685 buffer becomes your emotional bank account. So when there are 0:24:54.685 --> 0:24:56.925 times come that you need to give more, you do, 0:24:58.045 --> 0:25:00.805 but you do always still take into consideration that that 0:25:00.885 --> 0:25:04.645 will be reciprocated over time. But what can happen, and 0:25:04.725 --> 0:25:06.685 this is where the red flag aspect comes in, is 0:25:06.685 --> 0:25:09.765 that sometimes people get so used to you giving more 0:25:10.285 --> 0:25:14.245 than you actually taking and that unbalances the power relationship 0:25:14.325 --> 0:25:17.485 or the relationship you know in general, and then eventually 0:25:17.565 --> 0:25:19.805 it becomes like, oh, I'm expecting you to give this 0:25:19.925 --> 0:25:22.605 to me, And that's when you know, I think it's 0:25:22.645 --> 0:25:25.325 a good warning sign, a red flag to watch out 0:25:25.365 --> 0:25:29.245 for it when you know eventually things are not being 0:25:29.325 --> 0:25:30.925 reciprocated anymore. 0:25:36.685 --> 0:25:40.205 After this short break, doctor Fenwick and I discuss the 0:25:40.325 --> 0:25:49.685 challenge of toxic relationships with parents stay with us. There's 0:25:49.685 --> 0:25:54.645 a red flag in the book around the unavailable or 0:25:54.765 --> 0:26:00.725 unreliable parent, and this I know is huge in a 0:26:00.765 --> 0:26:04.605 lot of my friendships that people really struggle with how 0:26:04.645 --> 0:26:08.085 they are meant to engage with a parent who didn't 0:26:08.085 --> 0:26:14.965 give them what they need. Can you explain how you 0:26:15.125 --> 0:26:18.685 approach that red flag and the nuances that come with it? 0:26:19.245 --> 0:26:21.685 Oh? Yeah, Look, I mean I don't think that the 0:26:21.805 --> 0:26:23.725 chapter that I wrote. I think that was chapter number 0:26:23.765 --> 0:26:25.885 two that I wrote, the red flag number two. You know, 0:26:25.965 --> 0:26:28.605 it doesn't do complete justice to that, to the whole 0:26:28.685 --> 0:26:32.605 field of you know, neglect, abuse and not being not 0:26:32.645 --> 0:26:35.845 getting enough attention from a parent in your childhood. There's 0:26:35.885 --> 0:26:38.525 so many consequences to that, right, and so what I 0:26:38.565 --> 0:26:40.685 do do in that chapter is I do highlight some 0:26:40.765 --> 0:26:44.685 of the consequences. Again, I provide that psychodynamic perspective, So 0:26:44.805 --> 0:26:47.485 how that you know how your childhood and how for example, 0:26:47.845 --> 0:26:50.405 you know, having that experience not having the right you know, 0:26:50.525 --> 0:26:53.045 upbringing or not getting the right support as a child 0:26:53.125 --> 0:26:56.525 can actually have a huge impact on how you form relationships, 0:26:56.525 --> 0:26:59.965 but later in life, how you attach to people, emotional regulation, 0:27:00.045 --> 0:27:02.045 and also how you see yourself right, in terms of 0:27:02.045 --> 0:27:03.085 self esteem. 0:27:03.165 --> 0:27:07.765 Do you think that there's a clear way to tell. 0:27:09.125 --> 0:27:14.085 When it is time to end a relationship with a 0:27:14.125 --> 0:27:18.205 parent that because there's a big kind of trend about 0:27:18.445 --> 0:27:23.205 talking about cutting people off and when to just walk away, 0:27:23.245 --> 0:27:26.165 and you know, we know it Mayo. When we write 0:27:26.165 --> 0:27:30.565 a story about that, we get huge engagement, We get 0:27:30.765 --> 0:27:34.725 huge amounts of feedback from our audience saying that they 0:27:34.765 --> 0:27:41.045 are dealing with that. How do you, as a behavioral psychologist, 0:27:41.885 --> 0:27:44.325 think that somebody should go about making that decision? 0:27:45.245 --> 0:27:48.405 Look, that is a really personal decision, right, I mean 0:27:48.405 --> 0:27:51.085 breaking off of parents. But I do now see that 0:27:51.245 --> 0:27:53.685 you know a lot more people are thinking about it. Look, 0:27:53.725 --> 0:27:55.405 I think this is again, I'm going to bring it back. 0:27:55.445 --> 0:27:57.485 It's a personal question, back into the kind of red 0:27:57.565 --> 0:28:04.405 flag analogy. If your parental relationships, your family relationships are 0:28:04.605 --> 0:28:07.725 hurting your well being, your physical and mental well being, 0:28:08.405 --> 0:28:11.685 then I always say you should try to take distance. 0:28:11.685 --> 0:28:13.645 And it's not easy and it's not possible for everybody. 0:28:13.685 --> 0:28:15.285 We need to be mindful of that as well. Right, 0:28:15.725 --> 0:28:18.045 everyone can just say, oh, I'm going to say bye 0:28:18.085 --> 0:28:20.165 to my parents, But at the same time, I think 0:28:20.165 --> 0:28:23.325 we're also saying goodbye too easy. And that's where I 0:28:23.365 --> 0:28:25.885 want to challenge sometimes this idea of just you know, 0:28:25.925 --> 0:28:28.005 I've got an argument with my parents or my parents 0:28:28.045 --> 0:28:30.245 don't accept me as I am. But you know, everything 0:28:30.285 --> 0:28:33.445 takes time, you know, and then eventually it's about how 0:28:33.565 --> 0:28:36.485 you deal with your relationships in the future that actually 0:28:36.485 --> 0:28:39.765 make relationships successful. And again I come back to kind 0:28:39.765 --> 0:28:42.965 of this idea of that relationships are you know, your 0:28:43.005 --> 0:28:46.405 ability to form and sustain relationships is it's a muscle 0:28:46.405 --> 0:28:49.725 that you need to continue to strengthen. So distancing, I 0:28:49.965 --> 0:28:53.765 would always say when it comes to family, distancing is always, 0:28:54.125 --> 0:28:56.845 you know, is a good option if things are really 0:28:56.885 --> 0:29:01.605 not working out for you again, mental physical abuse, distance yourself. 0:29:02.885 --> 0:29:04.085 Let's talk about siblings. 0:29:04.085 --> 0:29:06.565 You know, there are so many siblings that I think 0:29:06.645 --> 0:29:09.605 more siblings actually take distance from each other and even 0:29:09.605 --> 0:29:11.845 speak to each other again. And actually that you know, 0:29:11.965 --> 0:29:15.125 kids distance themselves from their parents or let's you know, 0:29:15.205 --> 0:29:18.085 completely disconnect from their parents. But I do think taking 0:29:18.125 --> 0:29:21.565 time out and giving people time to become the person 0:29:21.605 --> 0:29:23.405 that they need to become, or to become more aware 0:29:23.405 --> 0:29:25.445 of why they behave the way they do, I think 0:29:25.565 --> 0:29:28.885 is really really important. I think time can heal many things, 0:29:28.885 --> 0:29:31.205 but not everything. But also at the same time, it's 0:29:31.245 --> 0:29:35.405 really important that you also consider, you know, how you 0:29:35.485 --> 0:29:38.605 want to continue relationship with your parents, maybe at the 0:29:38.645 --> 0:29:40.285 top point of time that you're really in a big 0:29:40.365 --> 0:29:42.605 argument with them, that you take distance from them, so 0:29:42.725 --> 0:29:44.605 I don't want to see you again. But maybe also 0:29:44.645 --> 0:29:47.365 there's parts of you that say, you know, you're still 0:29:47.405 --> 0:29:50.165 my mother, you're still my father. You know, I might 0:29:50.325 --> 0:29:53.005 not respect you anymore, or I might not you know, 0:29:53.125 --> 0:29:55.605 I love you anymore, but you're still part of me 0:29:55.685 --> 0:29:57.925 and I and I you know, I definitely want to 0:29:57.925 --> 0:29:59.565 see if we can find a way in the future 0:30:00.445 --> 0:30:03.165 so we can sele that. But again, there are many 0:30:03.245 --> 0:30:05.965 situations that we know of that are very terrible, like 0:30:06.085 --> 0:30:10.245 very abusive kind of relationships and where people really can't 0:30:10.725 --> 0:30:13.205 you accept anymore of being part of their lives or 0:30:13.245 --> 0:30:15.765 even wanting to be connected to them, and then those 0:30:16.125 --> 0:30:20.245 extreme situations. I do believe that, you know, completely distancing 0:30:20.285 --> 0:30:23.925 yourself from a parent is a viable option, But I 0:30:24.325 --> 0:30:27.405 would like to challenge this idea of you know, oh, 0:30:27.605 --> 0:30:29.485 you have a fight this distance to shell from them. No, 0:30:30.165 --> 0:30:32.245 I think with family it's a little bit harder than 0:30:32.365 --> 0:30:33.965 actually with maybe with friends. 0:30:34.605 --> 0:30:40.725 Yeah, yeah, I think sometimes people misunderstand boundaries a little bit. 0:30:41.485 --> 0:30:45.045 Where for example, I think a lot of people find 0:30:45.125 --> 0:30:48.565 that your relationship with your parents can be really complicated 0:30:48.965 --> 0:30:52.485 and quite loaded. And I always joke that when my 0:30:52.565 --> 0:30:54.925 siblings and my parents all get together, we. 0:30:54.845 --> 0:30:57.525 All regress to who we were as teenages. 0:30:58.165 --> 0:31:01.325 So sometimes you bring out the worst versions of each 0:31:01.325 --> 0:31:03.925 other and I become somebody that I'm not usually, and 0:31:04.285 --> 0:31:07.005 I annoy my brothers, and there's all this stuff going on, 0:31:07.245 --> 0:31:10.605 and you can kind of look at that and find it, 0:31:10.805 --> 0:31:13.045 you know, think oh, this is uncomfortable, so I'll just 0:31:13.085 --> 0:31:17.365 avoid it all together. But that idea of actually building 0:31:17.365 --> 0:31:22.045 a muscle, because they're also the longest relationships that you 0:31:22.165 --> 0:31:25.965 have in your entire life. Something else that comes up 0:31:26.245 --> 0:31:29.925 a lot in the social media space is this idea 0:31:30.125 --> 0:31:34.165 of the narcissist or a psychopath and what you're meant 0:31:34.165 --> 0:31:38.125 to do when you encounter them. And people love labeling 0:31:38.165 --> 0:31:43.205 people nists when they Yes, yes they're not as common 0:31:43.445 --> 0:31:49.285 as TikTok would have you believe. But the idea around psychopathy, 0:31:49.325 --> 0:31:52.245 for example, is that these people are not capable of empathy. 0:31:52.645 --> 0:31:57.045 They are cruel they'll create chaos, they'll use whatever emotional 0:31:57.085 --> 0:32:01.725 disclosures you make to them against you, So run away. 0:32:03.125 --> 0:32:07.845 What's your idea when it comes to those types of 0:32:07.885 --> 0:32:13.285 people that people really recognize as being narcissistic or kind 0:32:13.325 --> 0:32:17.685 of emotionally or just devoid of empathy. 0:32:17.845 --> 0:32:18.805 Well, I mean it depends. 0:32:18.925 --> 0:32:24.165 Look true narcissists, right, people that actually have narcissistic personality disorder, 0:32:24.685 --> 0:32:27.765 or who are psychopaths or very I mean, the prevalence 0:32:27.805 --> 0:32:31.205 in society is very low. Right, psychopathy is about one 0:32:31.245 --> 0:32:35.245 percent of the population. And again, you're right, just mention 0:32:35.285 --> 0:32:36.645 that we're so at the moment that we don't like 0:32:36.685 --> 0:32:40.445 something about somebody, we immediately label them as a narcissist. Right, 0:32:40.645 --> 0:32:43.005 Oh you don't do something for me, Oh, you're a narcissist. 0:32:43.245 --> 0:32:44.685 And I think that's the thing that we need to 0:32:44.765 --> 0:32:49.325 watch out for. So true narcissist if we engage with them, 0:32:49.845 --> 0:32:53.005 or a true psychopath. I mean, the best thing to 0:32:53.045 --> 0:32:55.405 do here is to stay away from them. And I 0:32:55.405 --> 0:32:57.485 think that's if you look at all the literature, and 0:32:57.525 --> 0:33:00.525 there's also there was an amazing book written called Snakes 0:33:00.565 --> 0:33:03.205 and Suits, which talks about psychopathy in the workplace. You 0:33:03.325 --> 0:33:05.765 only find psychopaths and narcissistem in prisons. You also find 0:33:05.765 --> 0:33:08.445 them in the boardroom. So there's different environments where we 0:33:08.445 --> 0:33:10.765 can encounter narsis. But you know, I think one of 0:33:10.805 --> 0:33:14.325 the guiding principles around dealing with narcissists is to try 0:33:14.325 --> 0:33:16.525 to stay away from them. They can be very destructive. 0:33:16.965 --> 0:33:18.685 If you try to go against them, they'll make it 0:33:18.725 --> 0:33:21.365 their lives sometimes to go against you. So I mean 0:33:21.365 --> 0:33:23.485 the key takeaway is stay away from them. I mean, 0:33:23.525 --> 0:33:25.205 that's that's the best thing that you can do. Or 0:33:25.245 --> 0:33:28.285 try to avoid them as much as possible, don't try 0:33:28.325 --> 0:33:30.205 to engage with them. That you know, I think would 0:33:30.245 --> 0:33:33.445 be the best advice, and I would even repeat in 0:33:33.485 --> 0:33:37.485 that perspective. But identifying narcissists and psychopaths, I mean, again, 0:33:37.725 --> 0:33:40.485 we can identify traits. What's very interesting is, you know, 0:33:40.525 --> 0:33:43.565 bringing it back into the boardroom situation. They often say that, 0:33:43.645 --> 0:33:46.445 you know, organizations tend to, you know, to have more 0:33:46.525 --> 0:33:49.925 narcissists than the average population does. But some studies and 0:33:49.965 --> 0:33:52.325 actually quote that in the book, you know about let's 0:33:52.325 --> 0:33:55.405 say one to five percent of narcissists and psychopaths. You 0:33:55.445 --> 0:33:57.525 can actually for social paths, you can actually find in 0:33:57.565 --> 0:34:00.245 an organization. But up to I think one study that 0:34:00.285 --> 0:34:03.605 I quoted was about twenty percent of some executives actually 0:34:03.605 --> 0:34:07.165 have narcissistic traits. So in some way these kind of 0:34:07.245 --> 0:34:11.045 narcissistic traits are being appreciate it especially when it comes 0:34:11.045 --> 0:34:13.925 to business and profit and do we always need to 0:34:13.965 --> 0:34:16.325 have empathy at work? Now? It seems also when we 0:34:16.365 --> 0:34:19.805 look into leadership literature that the higher we get into positions, 0:34:19.805 --> 0:34:23.285 the more power that we achieve, the less empathetic we become. 0:34:24.245 --> 0:34:28.285 So again, is your boss a narcissist or is he 0:34:28.405 --> 0:34:32.365 or she showing narcissistic traits such as less empathy towards 0:34:32.485 --> 0:34:35.245 other people? Because you need to make bigger decisions, I 0:34:35.245 --> 0:34:37.685 think that we need to be very careful about what 0:34:37.765 --> 0:34:42.405 we label as a being narcissistic or psychopathic, But from 0:34:42.445 --> 0:34:45.085 true narcissists I think we should stay away from. 0:34:45.165 --> 0:34:47.205 But yeah, the whole study, all the studies that. 0:34:47.245 --> 0:34:51.125 Talk about the impact of power on our emotions and 0:34:51.125 --> 0:34:55.085 decision making and on our behavior is fascinating because to 0:34:55.125 --> 0:34:59.845 some extent they resemble narcissistic traits and also psychopathic traits. 0:34:59.645 --> 0:35:04.645 As well, because you imagine that it's just those types 0:35:04.685 --> 0:35:07.405 of people go into those types of roles and then 0:35:07.405 --> 0:35:10.485 they thrive in it because you it's easy to make 0:35:10.645 --> 0:35:14.645 a decision about mass redundancies when you don't have amphithy 0:35:14.725 --> 0:35:17.565 for the people you're making redundant. But it's interesting that 0:35:17.605 --> 0:35:19.725 it can actually work the other way, that it's that 0:35:19.885 --> 0:35:22.965 power that then changes how you see people. 0:35:23.845 --> 0:35:24.525 And exactly. 0:35:24.725 --> 0:35:28.525 You write a lot about workplace dynamics and our behavior 0:35:29.125 --> 0:35:33.605 within it, and you talk about how it's particularly important 0:35:33.685 --> 0:35:39.125 to put boundaries in place at work because issues can 0:35:39.165 --> 0:35:44.085 arise when you become friends with your colleagues. And this 0:35:44.245 --> 0:35:48.285 is something in an all female workplace where it's creative 0:35:48.365 --> 0:35:53.245 and you're sharing personal stories. I have always ended up 0:35:53.285 --> 0:35:56.525 being friends with the people I work with. Can you 0:35:57.325 --> 0:36:02.805 explain how that can become an issue and how you're 0:36:02.845 --> 0:36:06.285 meant to walk that line? 0:36:06.405 --> 0:36:09.125 Oh, I just I recently got quoted in the CNN 0:36:09.765 --> 0:36:13.325 about this, and they use the headline that I said 0:36:13.325 --> 0:36:16.165 it was like, becoming friends at work is not the norm. 0:36:16.405 --> 0:36:18.805 People are just there to make money, into care, to take. 0:36:18.685 --> 0:36:21.045 Care for the success. And I stand behind that cot, 0:36:24.085 --> 0:36:26.165 I stand behind that car, and I'll tell you right. Look, 0:36:26.845 --> 0:36:28.885 of course, when you spend a lot of time with 0:36:28.925 --> 0:36:31.925 your friends, with your colleagues, you become close with them, 0:36:31.925 --> 0:36:34.965 and yes, you can become deat buddies and you can 0:36:35.005 --> 0:36:36.525 become really really good friends. 0:36:36.565 --> 0:36:38.245 It can happen, of course, it can happen. 0:36:38.405 --> 0:36:40.365 But at the same time, you know when people and 0:36:40.405 --> 0:36:41.965 this is why I kind of put out a bit 0:36:42.005 --> 0:36:45.205 of a warning sign, is you know, people are in 0:36:45.245 --> 0:36:47.365 the workplace to make money, they're there for their career, 0:36:47.405 --> 0:36:50.405 they're there for their survival. And I would say the 0:36:50.485 --> 0:36:52.645 majority of times people don't really show up with their 0:36:52.645 --> 0:36:55.805 true face. We all go to work with our professional 0:36:55.805 --> 0:36:59.405 identity on, with a professional mask, and so do we 0:36:59.485 --> 0:37:02.365 really get to see the real person who's there. Maybe 0:37:02.365 --> 0:37:04.565 the person can be so lovable and nice and shows 0:37:04.645 --> 0:37:06.885 us that, but I don't always think that the person 0:37:07.005 --> 0:37:08.965 has you know, will show up as the real person 0:37:09.125 --> 0:37:11.605 workplace and you never know why they do that, right, 0:37:11.645 --> 0:37:13.645 but we do know that they're there to make money 0:37:13.685 --> 0:37:18.685 and career. Some people might misuse your trust in the 0:37:18.725 --> 0:37:21.885 workplace to advance themselves or you know, in some occasions 0:37:21.925 --> 0:37:23.685 also to make sure that you might get fired or 0:37:23.725 --> 0:37:26.205 not get promoted so they can stay there in the 0:37:26.245 --> 0:37:30.285 workplace or get that promotion that they feel that they deserve. 0:37:30.685 --> 0:37:33.645 So I kind of want to say that it's when 0:37:33.645 --> 0:37:35.565 we try to build friends in the workplace, we're not 0:37:35.605 --> 0:37:38.325 building friends based on the social norm. We're also building 0:37:38.325 --> 0:37:41.005 friends based on the market norm. And I think that's 0:37:41.045 --> 0:37:43.005 something that we need to be more aware of and 0:37:43.125 --> 0:37:45.045 the fact that a lot of us don't bring our 0:37:45.125 --> 0:37:47.725 full true self to work, and I think that's where, 0:37:48.045 --> 0:37:49.845 you know, we need to be a little bit more mindful. 0:37:50.045 --> 0:37:52.885 Not saying that we definitely can't make friends at work, 0:37:53.125 --> 0:37:54.765 but we just need to be a little bit more 0:37:54.805 --> 0:37:57.725 mindful about you know, that people are not always showing 0:37:57.765 --> 0:37:59.925 up as they are, so take your time, you know. 0:38:00.005 --> 0:38:01.445 I'm not saying that you can't make friends. 0:38:01.565 --> 0:38:03.845 Take your time, get to know your friends, get closer 0:38:03.885 --> 0:38:05.805 to them, but always, you know, be a little bit 0:38:05.845 --> 0:38:07.645 mindful about making friends in the workplace. 0:38:07.925 --> 0:38:12.085 I think that's the that's a really interesting perspective that 0:38:12.125 --> 0:38:14.725 because there are people that come to work and you 0:38:14.805 --> 0:38:18.565 think they are very boundaried that it's like, Okay, you 0:38:18.645 --> 0:38:21.285 come to work and your life outside of work is 0:38:21.325 --> 0:38:24.805 your life. And I'm always kind of jealous of those 0:38:24.805 --> 0:38:28.125 people because I'm terrible at it. But you're right, that 0:38:28.165 --> 0:38:32.365 it can blur the social dynamics when there's power and 0:38:32.445 --> 0:38:41.205 money and ambition involved, and yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. Another 0:38:42.125 --> 0:38:44.685 example that you have for a red flag in a 0:38:44.725 --> 0:38:52.085 workplace is a workplace not respecting your boundaries. And you 0:38:52.885 --> 0:38:57.605 kind of talk about how people It goes both ways 0:38:57.685 --> 0:38:59.405 that a workplace. 0:38:59.005 --> 0:39:01.565 Can you know, ask can you work on Sunday? Can 0:39:01.605 --> 0:39:02.405 you work on Sunday? 0:39:02.805 --> 0:39:05.125 But when you actually break it down and get people 0:39:05.125 --> 0:39:08.365 to reflect, you've got to ask you the one who's 0:39:09.405 --> 0:39:11.765 actually struggling to set the boundaries yourself? 0:39:11.805 --> 0:39:12.765 Are you saying yes? 0:39:13.685 --> 0:39:17.405 And I'm definitely the kind of person who is a 0:39:17.445 --> 0:39:20.525 people pleaser and perfectionistic, so I want to I'm like, yes, yes, yes, 0:39:20.565 --> 0:39:22.645 I'll do all the things. And then you're sort of like, 0:39:22.685 --> 0:39:25.085 hold on, I feel like my boundaries aren't being respected. 0:39:26.165 --> 0:39:27.005 What kind of. 0:39:26.885 --> 0:39:31.005 Things can we do to make sure that we're setting 0:39:31.125 --> 0:39:33.365 up that dynamic where things are really clear? 0:39:34.365 --> 0:39:36.405 Well, I mean that's also very hard thing to do. 0:39:36.445 --> 0:39:38.645 I mean, you can have you can have policies in place, 0:39:38.685 --> 0:39:41.685 and you can have good work practices in place, you know, 0:39:41.725 --> 0:39:45.685 and some teams and some organizations do an amazing job 0:39:46.245 --> 0:39:48.685 at that, Like they say look at five o'clock, you 0:39:48.725 --> 0:39:50.285 go home, or you choose which do you want to 0:39:50.325 --> 0:39:52.285 work from home? You balance things like yourself. But not 0:39:52.325 --> 0:39:54.725 every organization can work that way. But I think the 0:39:54.805 --> 0:39:58.645 key thing here is first of all, good work hygiene, 0:39:58.685 --> 0:40:01.645 so understanding of having good practices in the first place 0:40:01.965 --> 0:40:05.245 and policies, but also allowing flexibility in there. I think 0:40:05.285 --> 0:40:08.325 that's so important because people, again it comes back to 0:40:08.365 --> 0:40:11.445 that kind of law of reciprocity. If I give you 0:40:11.485 --> 0:40:14.325 more flexibility, you probably will give me more of your 0:40:14.365 --> 0:40:16.885 time in return. But when you can do that and 0:40:16.925 --> 0:40:19.605 when you cont that, so I almost say that to 0:40:19.685 --> 0:40:22.445 work with boundaries, sometimes it's also good to give people 0:40:22.525 --> 0:40:25.245 the flexibility to make their own decisions and then people 0:40:25.325 --> 0:40:27.685 might go a little bit more for you without feeling 0:40:27.805 --> 0:40:29.805 that they're actually overstepping their own boundaries. 0:40:30.165 --> 0:40:33.525 Yeah, and perhaps that's one of the reasons it feels 0:40:33.565 --> 0:40:37.565 like the workplace has changed a little bit in recent 0:40:37.645 --> 0:40:40.325 years and people are getting a little bit more you know, 0:40:40.365 --> 0:40:43.085 the whole quiet quitting trend, and people are getting a 0:40:43.125 --> 0:40:47.485 lot more strict about what they believe a workplace is 0:40:47.605 --> 0:40:49.165 entitled to ask from them. 0:40:49.245 --> 0:40:53.445 Because I think at least that during. 0:40:53.245 --> 0:40:59.245 COVID, the workforce did a lot to help businesses in 0:40:59.285 --> 0:41:01.765 that you know, all of us were like, Okay, we'll 0:41:01.845 --> 0:41:04.805 change our lives to work from home, and we will. 0:41:05.005 --> 0:41:07.245 You know, some of us had to move into a 0:41:07.285 --> 0:41:10.085 different kind of place where we had an off where 0:41:10.125 --> 0:41:12.045 we could work from home, which was not something we 0:41:12.045 --> 0:41:14.245 had ever had to do before. And so it's sort 0:41:14.285 --> 0:41:17.885 of like, you know, the workforce felt like they had adapted, 0:41:18.125 --> 0:41:21.725 and then you look at your workplace and say, okay, well. 0:41:21.805 --> 0:41:23.605 What are you going to do for me now? 0:41:24.165 --> 0:41:28.125 And I think gen z who have come in sort 0:41:28.165 --> 0:41:33.445 of post that work change are then having a very 0:41:33.445 --> 0:41:35.045 different experience and. 0:41:36.685 --> 0:41:39.725 Very confused about what work was like before. 0:41:40.605 --> 0:41:42.925 And not not kind of expecting it to be a 0:41:42.965 --> 0:41:45.285 Monday to Friday nine to five situation. 0:41:46.565 --> 0:41:48.325 Well, look, I think there's a lot to be said 0:41:48.365 --> 0:41:50.845 about that. And you know, during the I think the. 0:41:50.805 --> 0:41:53.205 Pandemic when we you know, this term came up called 0:41:53.205 --> 0:41:56.525 the Great Resignation, and you know, people are like disgrundled 0:41:56.565 --> 0:41:58.925 with having to work so much and dealing with the 0:41:58.965 --> 0:42:01.805 enserrtainty of COVID nineteen at the time. 0:42:01.925 --> 0:42:03.565 But one of the reasons why. 0:42:03.405 --> 0:42:06.205 A lot of people actually left at the organization is 0:42:06.245 --> 0:42:10.125 because that disgruntleman already existed prior to the pandemic. So 0:42:10.245 --> 0:42:12.485 you know, people were very already very. 0:42:12.565 --> 0:42:14.245 You know, not that engaged. If you look at the 0:42:14.245 --> 0:42:16.085 Gallop surveys. 0:42:15.565 --> 0:42:19.205 That came out, you know, completely disengaged, you know, highly 0:42:19.285 --> 0:42:22.365 disengaged or disengaged. In total, it was the majority of 0:42:22.405 --> 0:42:25.565 the workforce. And so people already very unhappy with this 0:42:25.725 --> 0:42:27.725 kind of hustling, like you had to work so many 0:42:27.725 --> 0:42:30.525 hours and you know, go over time, and you know, 0:42:30.565 --> 0:42:33.805 I think what COVID did is made people more reflective, 0:42:34.125 --> 0:42:37.045 made more made them more mindful of what's really important 0:42:37.045 --> 0:42:38.565 to me. I have a virus out there that is 0:42:38.605 --> 0:42:41.525 going to potentially kill me, and you're asking me to 0:42:41.565 --> 0:42:43.685 work twelve hours a day sitting in my home. 0:42:44.085 --> 0:42:44.565 No, thank you. 0:42:44.605 --> 0:42:46.125 I'm going to take care of a parent or a 0:42:46.245 --> 0:42:50.405 cat or whatever. So people changed their priorities. And why 0:42:50.485 --> 0:42:53.125 a lot of people, not only did the workforce laid 0:42:53.125 --> 0:42:54.725 off a lot of people, why a lot of people 0:42:54.765 --> 0:42:57.805 decided just to quit, is because they were already very 0:42:57.885 --> 0:43:00.765 unhappy with how things were going. And I think this 0:43:00.925 --> 0:43:04.245 changed the dynamic right in terms of the relationship and 0:43:04.245 --> 0:43:08.325 the power between the employer and the employee. Now you 0:43:08.325 --> 0:43:10.645 said something interesting about gen Z because of course now 0:43:10.765 --> 0:43:12.005 you know, I talk about it in the book. You know, 0:43:12.125 --> 0:43:16.165 quiet quitting has become a new phenomena quiet holiday, and 0:43:16.205 --> 0:43:17.885 I didn't mention that in the book. But that's also 0:43:17.885 --> 0:43:19.645 a big thing where a lot of people are just 0:43:19.725 --> 0:43:21.965 kind of, oh, you told me I can work remotely 0:43:22.165 --> 0:43:24.925 and then their own you know, the Bahamas and wait 0:43:24.965 --> 0:43:26.365 a minute, so you're. 0:43:26.005 --> 0:43:26.845 Supposed to be working. 0:43:26.845 --> 0:43:28.165 I am working, but where are you. 0:43:28.245 --> 0:43:30.165 I'm like, I'm in the Bahamas right now. So that 0:43:30.245 --> 0:43:31.445 also has become a thing. 0:43:31.565 --> 0:43:34.645 And I think that the gen Z generation just from 0:43:34.685 --> 0:43:39.525 their mindset is their parents were the Millennials maybe gen xers, 0:43:39.605 --> 0:43:42.645 and they saw their parents work so extremely hard, they 0:43:42.685 --> 0:43:44.125 often didn't see their parents at home. 0:43:44.685 --> 0:43:47.485 And they have grown up now in a world where 0:43:47.765 --> 0:43:48.125 you know. 0:43:48.165 --> 0:43:50.405 There is there is no certainty for them in many 0:43:50.405 --> 0:43:55.805 different ways, financially, work wise, relationship wise. So why should 0:43:55.845 --> 0:43:58.805 I give my ole when I'm not getting anything in return. 0:43:58.925 --> 0:44:04.965 So they're prioritizing mental health, they're prioritizing their personal lives, 0:44:05.125 --> 0:44:06.485 you know, as much as possible. 0:44:06.525 --> 0:44:08.765 And you know, many people don't want to have the 0:44:08.845 --> 0:44:09.645 nine to five job. 0:44:09.725 --> 0:44:11.525 They see that a nine to five job can't even 0:44:11.565 --> 0:44:13.845 pay the bills nowadays. So a lot of younger people 0:44:13.885 --> 0:44:16.405 nowadays want to become actors, They want to become influencers. 0:44:16.645 --> 0:44:19.645 So they do the job because it potentially might get 0:44:19.645 --> 0:44:21.565 them to do them something else in the future. They 0:44:21.565 --> 0:44:24.445 don't feel that connection and commitment to the organization, but 0:44:24.485 --> 0:44:27.725 at the same time, they do expect you know that 0:44:27.725 --> 0:44:30.205 that you know that they're treated well and that they're 0:44:30.245 --> 0:44:32.485 not overwork. They have a good manager, there's you know, 0:44:32.725 --> 0:44:35.725 there's diversity and inclusion policies in place that you know, 0:44:35.765 --> 0:44:38.165 help them feel that they can bring their whole sales 0:44:38.205 --> 0:44:38.485 to work. 0:44:38.485 --> 0:44:39.845 Otherwise they're going to work for you. 0:44:39.925 --> 0:44:44.125 And I think that that dynamic has forced organizations to 0:44:44.285 --> 0:44:48.245 rethink their strategy when working with employees, especially in a 0:44:48.285 --> 0:44:49.245 post pandemic era. 0:44:53.605 --> 0:44:57.045 When we return, doctor Fenwick and I dive into dating. 0:44:57.805 --> 0:45:00.405 Did you know that most ghosting happens on the third 0:45:00.525 --> 0:45:07.765 date because I didn't stay with us. I want to 0:45:07.805 --> 0:45:11.805 briefly touch on dating because, as you said at the beginning, 0:45:11.885 --> 0:45:14.245 that is where a lot of this red flag stuff 0:45:14.565 --> 0:45:20.085 started from. And you talk about some of the dating 0:45:20.125 --> 0:45:24.205 red flags, and then apply that same process, and I 0:45:24.245 --> 0:45:26.845 wanted to talk about some of the parts of dating 0:45:26.845 --> 0:45:31.125 that are particularly contentious and how you can make a 0:45:31.205 --> 0:45:33.685 decision about whether or not that particular thing is a 0:45:33.685 --> 0:45:37.685 red flag for you. One thing I've heard from a 0:45:37.725 --> 0:45:40.805 lot of men, and I've never asked anyone about this, 0:45:40.885 --> 0:45:42.365 but I've heard from a lot of men, and you 0:45:42.405 --> 0:45:46.565 write about it in the book when you're seeing someone 0:45:46.725 --> 0:45:50.365 and you can't make a decision about it because you're 0:45:50.405 --> 0:45:56.845 not feeling anything. And I'd never seen this acknowledged and 0:45:56.885 --> 0:45:58.605 I'd never seen it normalized. 0:46:00.005 --> 0:46:01.405 Can you talk me through? 0:46:02.165 --> 0:46:07.725 So, if you're seeing someone and you feel nothing, how 0:46:07.765 --> 0:46:10.205 do you decide whether or not that is a red 0:46:10.205 --> 0:46:11.485 flag or whether that's okay? 0:46:12.045 --> 0:46:12.845 Wonderful question. 0:46:13.725 --> 0:46:16.525 Let me give you a bit of some context to 0:46:16.565 --> 0:46:16.965 this point. 0:46:16.965 --> 0:46:19.085 That why I mentioned it in the book. So I'm 0:46:19.085 --> 0:46:22.845 a very data driven person, and the twenty four chapters 0:46:22.845 --> 0:46:25.925 that I wrote are based on my most viral content 0:46:26.125 --> 0:46:29.085 that went viral on all my platforms, meaning that these 0:46:29.125 --> 0:46:33.925 were truly topics that people I'm most concerned about. One 0:46:33.965 --> 0:46:38.045 of them was I don't feel anything anymore right? Oh 0:46:38.085 --> 0:46:40.285 I like you, my mind says I like you, But 0:46:40.325 --> 0:46:42.845 my heart says nothing, you know, is there something wrong 0:46:42.885 --> 0:46:45.845 with me? And so I broke that down not feeling 0:46:45.885 --> 0:46:48.925 anything into potential red flags and green flags and why 0:46:49.005 --> 0:46:53.325 can happen, you know, from reasons of mental health issues 0:46:53.365 --> 0:46:56.125 all the way to what people don't realize, for example, 0:46:56.205 --> 0:46:59.365 is over usage of social media and on mobile phones, 0:46:59.845 --> 0:47:03.925 and you know how basically that overstimulation of dopamine can 0:47:04.045 --> 0:47:07.325 lead to us not feeling as much as normal, And 0:47:07.365 --> 0:47:09.525 so people don't realize that, And so I break down 0:47:09.565 --> 0:47:11.605 in that chapter, why is it that a lot of 0:47:11.685 --> 0:47:14.725 us are not feeling anything? Sometimes it's just temporary and 0:47:14.805 --> 0:47:16.965 we deal with it and it passes by. Just think 0:47:16.965 --> 0:47:19.805 of a stressful moment, death in the family. You know, 0:47:19.885 --> 0:47:22.605 it's just kind of like a coping strategy. Sometimes it 0:47:22.605 --> 0:47:24.885 could be something more serious, and then that's something that 0:47:24.925 --> 0:47:27.565 you need to kind of further investigate with a medical 0:47:27.605 --> 0:47:30.005 professional and see if there's anything wrong there. But it 0:47:30.045 --> 0:47:32.965 could also just be for example, because we're just feeling 0:47:33.005 --> 0:47:36.085 so overwhelmed and you know, at the same time, you know, 0:47:36.125 --> 0:47:38.925 we're just using also we're using our mobile phones too much, 0:47:39.205 --> 0:47:41.325 and there's and I provide some insights from studies there 0:47:41.365 --> 0:47:43.925 also that you know over mobile phone usage and social 0:47:44.005 --> 0:47:47.005 media over usage actually can lead us to feeling much 0:47:47.045 --> 0:47:49.965 more less and feeling much more numb. So I wanted 0:47:50.005 --> 0:47:53.765 to in that chapter to explain when is feeling nothing 0:47:53.805 --> 0:47:56.965 a potential green flag and when is it a red flag, 0:47:57.005 --> 0:48:00.285 so that people can become more mindful, because on social media, 0:48:00.765 --> 0:48:03.085 the response is when I came out with because I 0:48:03.085 --> 0:48:04.845 made a video on that on that topic, it was like, 0:48:05.165 --> 0:48:07.845 you're so right, why am I not feeling anything? It's 0:48:07.885 --> 0:48:10.885 like I've become completely numb and why is that? And 0:48:10.885 --> 0:48:12.965 that's why I wanted to provide some perspectives there and 0:48:13.005 --> 0:48:14.845 also what we can do about it and how we 0:48:14.885 --> 0:48:15.845 can start feeling again. 0:48:16.245 --> 0:48:20.845 And so say you are dating someone and you objectively 0:48:20.845 --> 0:48:23.965 you're looking at them and you think I find them attractive, 0:48:24.325 --> 0:48:28.245 I find them interesting, I enjoy our time together, but 0:48:28.485 --> 0:48:33.165 I'm not feeling anything. How do you overcome that? And 0:48:33.205 --> 0:48:36.685 how do you make a decision when there's not that 0:48:36.765 --> 0:48:38.045 gut instinct. 0:48:39.525 --> 0:48:42.725 That's well, I mean again, the reason why you're not 0:48:42.765 --> 0:48:45.245 feeling anything in the first place, It could be multiple 0:48:45.285 --> 0:48:47.125 reasons there, right, So that needs to be that needs 0:48:47.165 --> 0:48:50.845 to be thoroughly investigated, which sometimes requires also a medical 0:48:50.845 --> 0:48:53.045 professional to see as well, because if you don't feel 0:48:53.045 --> 0:48:55.085 anything at all, it could be an indicator that something 0:48:55.125 --> 0:48:55.965 else is happening with you. 0:48:56.605 --> 0:48:57.205 If it's just. 0:48:57.085 --> 0:49:00.045 Because of how you're living right now, you're just kind 0:49:00.045 --> 0:49:02.405 of living your day day by day, you're going into 0:49:02.405 --> 0:49:04.325 the motus of things, and you don't really spend a 0:49:04.365 --> 0:49:05.965 lot of time of going very because I think that's 0:49:06.005 --> 0:49:08.205 one of the big problems nowadays, is that we're not 0:49:08.205 --> 0:49:11.925 building deep enough connect right We're not really getting to 0:49:11.965 --> 0:49:12.725 know the other person. 0:49:12.725 --> 0:49:14.765 If we're very quickly deciding. 0:49:14.365 --> 0:49:15.805 That, you know, we don't want to you know, I 0:49:15.805 --> 0:49:17.125 don't want to be with you because I see this 0:49:17.205 --> 0:49:19.205 first red flag where you know, I just like to 0:49:19.245 --> 0:49:21.645 keep it very superficial and let's just keep it sexual. 0:49:21.925 --> 0:49:24.085 You're not really getting to know the person at a 0:49:24.325 --> 0:49:26.565 more emotional level. And I think that is also another 0:49:26.605 --> 0:49:28.845 reason why we might not be feeding things. 0:49:28.885 --> 0:49:30.765 Because we're it's a quick forable. 0:49:30.885 --> 0:49:34.445 We're happy with the exchange that physical and intimacy exchange, 0:49:34.725 --> 0:49:37.125 but we're not looking for something much more deeper because 0:49:37.245 --> 0:49:39.725 our lives are busier. We have our friends, you know, 0:49:39.765 --> 0:49:41.325 that we want to invest in, and we. 0:49:41.285 --> 0:49:42.885 Don't want drama. I think a lot of people are 0:49:42.925 --> 0:49:43.525 now saying. 0:49:43.285 --> 0:49:45.165 To themselves, I don't want drama, so I don't want 0:49:45.165 --> 0:49:48.205 to deal with relationships. But again, that mental muscle comes 0:49:48.245 --> 0:49:51.405 to play the moment we just keep things superficial, less 0:49:51.485 --> 0:49:53.765 likely we are to build a more deeper emotional connection. 0:49:54.125 --> 0:49:56.925 So coming back to your answer from that perspective, I 0:49:56.965 --> 0:49:59.325 would say, spend time. 0:49:59.165 --> 0:50:00.685 To get to know the person that you're dealing with. 0:50:00.845 --> 0:50:06.805 Understand your compatibility beyond the physical compatibility, look for spiritual compatibility, 0:50:07.005 --> 0:50:11.165 look for emotional compatibility, value compatibility physical, well, not physical 0:50:11.165 --> 0:50:14.325 I already mentioned, but look at other kinds of compatibility 0:50:14.365 --> 0:50:15.925 with another person so that you can get to know 0:50:15.965 --> 0:50:16.365 each other. 0:50:16.685 --> 0:50:19.445 Do you think the other part of it is, because 0:50:19.445 --> 0:50:23.765 I've heard you talk about this that with dating now, 0:50:25.005 --> 0:50:30.445 we feel like we constantly have infinite options. So when 0:50:30.485 --> 0:50:34.005 we are seeing someone in the back of our mind, 0:50:34.045 --> 0:50:37.445 we're also thinking, yeah, but there's also a million other 0:50:37.445 --> 0:50:39.245 people in my phone, Like, do you think we're not 0:50:39.365 --> 0:50:43.005 kind of getting that depth because we're a little bit distracted. 0:50:43.845 --> 0:50:45.645 You hit the nail on the head. I think one 0:50:45.685 --> 0:50:48.405 of the reasons why people are finding it hard to 0:50:49.085 --> 0:50:51.885 find someone they can be with for a longer period 0:50:51.885 --> 0:50:55.325 of time. Is dating apps have created this illusion and 0:50:55.365 --> 0:50:57.725 I emphasize the word of loosing here because it is 0:50:57.725 --> 0:51:00.605 an illusion that there's so many other options out there, 0:51:00.645 --> 0:51:03.325 like there's a limited less amount of people that we 0:51:03.365 --> 0:51:06.205 can connect with and date with, and so when something 0:51:06.205 --> 0:51:08.645 doesn't go right with a person that we're dating at 0:51:08.685 --> 0:51:10.125 the moment, we just get you know, we get rid 0:51:10.165 --> 0:51:10.405 of them. 0:51:10.405 --> 0:51:11.045 We don't like them. 0:51:11.085 --> 0:51:13.125 Oh it's too much drama, so I'll just move on 0:51:13.165 --> 0:51:15.885 to somebody else. I think that's one of the major 0:51:15.925 --> 0:51:19.245 reasons why people are finding it much more harder. 0:51:19.005 --> 0:51:20.365 To date in today's world. 0:51:20.605 --> 0:51:24.365 Then again, they're losing their ability to strengthen their social 0:51:24.445 --> 0:51:26.845 muscle or their mental ability to kind of deal with 0:51:26.925 --> 0:51:30.325 challenging situations, which then becomes kind of like a vicious 0:51:30.365 --> 0:51:33.125 circle to the extent that eventually you get so used 0:51:33.125 --> 0:51:37.285 to switching partners that eventually you I mean, I won't 0:51:37.285 --> 0:51:40.165 say it becomes impossible, because it's much more harder to 0:51:40.165 --> 0:51:43.525 build more sustainable relationship with every every relationship, you know, 0:51:43.645 --> 0:51:46.285 every long term relationship is going to deal with some 0:51:46.325 --> 0:51:48.565 form of drama, right, and some a little bit more 0:51:48.605 --> 0:51:51.965 than others, and especially love relationships because when we are 0:51:52.005 --> 0:51:55.845 emotionally connected romantically connected to people, you know, parts of 0:51:55.885 --> 0:51:59.525 our past and attachment styles of course immerse and and 0:51:59.845 --> 0:52:02.605 you know, I often like to say that when we 0:52:02.765 --> 0:52:04.965 fall in love, we should also be mindful of not 0:52:05.005 --> 0:52:07.965 to falling in love with the good things about people, 0:52:07.965 --> 0:52:10.165 but we also need to fall in love with people's 0:52:10.205 --> 0:52:14.085 developmental spaces as well. You know, We're part of being 0:52:14.085 --> 0:52:17.045 in a long term relationship is also helping each other 0:52:17.125 --> 0:52:20.525 to heal in that perspective, to build trust and to 0:52:20.645 --> 0:52:22.125 learn again. And I think a lot of us in 0:52:22.125 --> 0:52:26.005 today's world are probably because we're just there for the transaction. 0:52:26.365 --> 0:52:28.925 We're so much more focused on the pleasure and not 0:52:29.045 --> 0:52:31.645 on the complete you know, the completeness of being with 0:52:31.725 --> 0:52:34.645 somebody else. And then when that comes out, you know, 0:52:34.725 --> 0:52:37.245 and it eventually does in every relationship that comes out 0:52:37.485 --> 0:52:40.325 to some extent, you know, then people get afraid and 0:52:40.325 --> 0:52:42.525 they don't know what to do, and then again that 0:52:42.565 --> 0:52:45.165 pushes them away as well. So this is why I 0:52:45.165 --> 0:52:47.965 wrote the book. I can see this from a behavioral 0:52:47.965 --> 0:52:51.885 perspective happening. I think it's it's a scary development, But 0:52:52.005 --> 0:52:54.405 I do think we have the skills and capabilities inside 0:52:54.405 --> 0:52:56.685 of us to go against it and to do something 0:52:56.965 --> 0:52:57.405 about it. 0:52:57.445 --> 0:52:58.885 So that's why I really. 0:52:58.605 --> 0:53:00.805 Want people to become more mindful of their interaction with 0:53:00.805 --> 0:53:03.485 people and make the most understand that, Yeah, you know, 0:53:03.645 --> 0:53:06.365 challenge is part of our lives, and you know, we 0:53:06.445 --> 0:53:08.685 need to if we want to form strong relationships, we 0:53:08.725 --> 0:53:10.445 need to do a little bit more than just bouncing 0:53:10.445 --> 0:53:15.045 from one person to another. But technology, unfortunately today gives 0:53:15.085 --> 0:53:18.685 us the feeling that we can replace people easily. But 0:53:18.725 --> 0:53:20.365 the other thing that I also mentioned in the book 0:53:20.405 --> 0:53:23.085 is how technology has been designed and how that also 0:53:23.325 --> 0:53:26.485 makes us more willing to mistreat people. And that's even 0:53:26.925 --> 0:53:27.645 more concerning. 0:53:28.445 --> 0:53:32.805 I loved hearing about that in the context of dating, 0:53:33.165 --> 0:53:36.045 because I think we hear it a lot about social 0:53:36.085 --> 0:53:38.805 media and the fact that we kind of dehumanize people. 0:53:39.325 --> 0:53:42.205 But it's so true that on an app, I mean, 0:53:42.285 --> 0:53:46.005 even the idea of ghosting someone is quite dehumanizing. You're 0:53:46.045 --> 0:53:48.805 no longer really seeing them as a person with feelings, 0:53:48.885 --> 0:53:51.245 and like you're seeing them as a text message that 0:53:52.685 --> 0:53:55.645 yeah yeah, yeah, and just just as an option rather 0:53:55.645 --> 0:53:59.405 than a fully fledged human being. And I think that 0:53:59.405 --> 0:54:02.245 that's such a such an interesting thing to look at 0:54:03.005 --> 0:54:05.605 The last thing I want to ask you about is 0:54:05.645 --> 0:54:09.005 something that has come up a lot in recent years, 0:54:09.005 --> 0:54:14.005 which is ethical non monogamy. And we've heard more and 0:54:14.085 --> 0:54:18.885 more about open relationships. And I really liked the breakdown 0:54:18.925 --> 0:54:23.325 of this because there are some context where somebody asking 0:54:23.445 --> 0:54:26.245 to open up a relationship could be a red flag 0:54:26.285 --> 0:54:27.805 and there are some times when it could be a 0:54:27.805 --> 0:54:32.365 grain flag. Could you break down what someone should consider 0:54:32.885 --> 0:54:35.165 when they're thinking about opening up a relationship. 0:54:35.765 --> 0:54:40.205 Yes, you know, the open relationships has become is increasing, right, 0:54:40.245 --> 0:54:41.885 the amount of people that want to be in an 0:54:41.885 --> 0:54:44.685 open relationship for multiple reasons. And again I think also 0:54:44.725 --> 0:54:46.845 because we believe that there's so many people out there 0:54:46.885 --> 0:54:49.725 and you know, try before you die. Let's say, yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:54:49.725 --> 0:54:53.285 this kind of this mindset that is emerging. And so 0:54:53.525 --> 0:54:56.165 even people that have been in long term relationships nowadays 0:54:56.165 --> 0:54:59.045 are saying, you know, you know, they're proposing either to 0:54:59.085 --> 0:55:01.565 open up the relationship and sometimes even deciding if that's 0:55:01.565 --> 0:55:03.005 not going to happen, just to kind of break up 0:55:03.005 --> 0:55:04.565 and move away. And I think a lot of people 0:55:04.965 --> 0:55:07.325 that receive that question, that's why I wrote that chapter. 0:55:07.965 --> 0:55:11.525 Is that what you you do when your partner asks 0:55:11.565 --> 0:55:14.485 you should we open up the relationship? And this is 0:55:14.565 --> 0:55:18.445 again a very personal question. I address the phenomena of 0:55:18.645 --> 0:55:21.045 why people are opening up with more their relationships and 0:55:21.245 --> 0:55:23.805 and what you can do about it, like, for example, 0:55:24.805 --> 0:55:27.125 if you're if you're not okay with it, then just 0:55:27.165 --> 0:55:28.925 say no, right then, I don't want this. 0:55:28.965 --> 0:55:32.365 It doesn't fit with my values. This is not something 0:55:32.405 --> 0:55:33.405 that I'd want. 0:55:33.565 --> 0:55:36.525 And are you okay? Are you? Do you stand behind 0:55:37.085 --> 0:55:39.925 your decisions and also understanding that that might end your 0:55:40.005 --> 0:55:43.645 long term partnership or your relationship. But again I also 0:55:43.685 --> 0:55:46.805 put in you know, suggestions and talking about how you 0:55:46.845 --> 0:55:49.965 can consider maybe having an open relationship. Now I'm not 0:55:49.965 --> 0:55:51.965 promoting it, but I'm saying how you can consider it, 0:55:52.405 --> 0:55:54.645 and and saying, well, look, you know, I never thought 0:55:54.645 --> 0:55:58.005 about that. I am, I really care about my relationship. 0:55:58.245 --> 0:55:59.925 One thing we also need to be mindful of is 0:56:00.045 --> 0:56:02.725 every long term relationship, you know, people's needs evolve and 0:56:02.845 --> 0:56:06.165 change happens to everybody, and sometimes that comes also to 0:56:06.205 --> 0:56:09.245 the to the intimacy level as well. And so I 0:56:09.325 --> 0:56:11.805 I think it's really good that a partner can voice 0:56:12.205 --> 0:56:14.725 their evolving needs to the other partner instead of cheating, 0:56:14.765 --> 0:56:16.885 because to you is the worst thing that you can do. 0:56:16.965 --> 0:56:18.885 So voice your. 0:56:18.805 --> 0:56:22.165 Interest in your desires and discuss that with your partner 0:56:22.245 --> 0:56:26.565 in the most respectful and mindful way possible. If your 0:56:26.645 --> 0:56:29.445 partner is open to that, then at least you know, 0:56:29.725 --> 0:56:32.085 then discuss it and see how that works. And so 0:56:32.165 --> 0:56:34.285 in the book I also say, well, if it's something 0:56:34.325 --> 0:56:35.965 you like, you'd like to try as well, go ahead 0:56:35.965 --> 0:56:38.605 with it, but also put in some contingencies. And this 0:56:38.645 --> 0:56:40.045 is where I kind of, you know, I add some 0:56:40.165 --> 0:56:42.685 kind of gray areas into it, like put in some 0:56:42.725 --> 0:56:45.685 contingencies and say I've tried this, but I don't like it. 0:56:45.885 --> 0:56:47.525 And I also want to agree with you that if 0:56:47.565 --> 0:56:49.005 I've tried it and I don't like it, that we 0:56:49.005 --> 0:56:51.925 can go back to where we were or decide to 0:56:51.965 --> 0:56:54.565 move away from each other. So what am I trying 0:56:54.565 --> 0:56:56.725 to do there is I'm trying to open up that 0:56:56.805 --> 0:57:00.805 conversation in a way that can help people to navigate 0:57:00.845 --> 0:57:03.765 that discussion and not just be a black and white discussion. 0:57:03.765 --> 0:57:04.725 For some people it's a. 0:57:04.725 --> 0:57:07.565 Yes or no. But because more and more people are 0:57:07.645 --> 0:57:11.485 asking this in a relationship, how can you navigate that discussion? 0:57:11.485 --> 0:57:15.085 Because maybe it might just be a moment, a moment, 0:57:15.125 --> 0:57:17.965 a momentarily thing of a partner, and maybe that partner 0:57:18.045 --> 0:57:21.525 probably you know, will be okay to stay with you, 0:57:21.605 --> 0:57:24.205 even not opening up the relationship. It's about having the 0:57:24.285 --> 0:57:28.205 dialogue and having the conversation and doing that with being 0:57:28.565 --> 0:57:32.445 as least triggered as possible, because every relationship is about 0:57:32.485 --> 0:57:34.405 communication in the end, and that's kind of what I 0:57:34.445 --> 0:57:38.085 wanted to provide in that chapter, to help people know 0:57:38.125 --> 0:57:39.565 how to navigate that conversation. 0:57:39.885 --> 0:57:42.245 Yeah, and I think for a lot of people it 0:57:42.325 --> 0:57:47.965 would be you might have an instinctive reaction to for 0:57:48.005 --> 0:57:50.285 it to feel like a rejection or to feel like 0:57:50.365 --> 0:57:54.325 chating when when it's not. And I mean, I think 0:57:54.325 --> 0:57:58.405 a thing throughout the whole book is the complexity and 0:57:58.405 --> 0:58:02.205 the nuances in relationships and the fact that you have 0:58:02.285 --> 0:58:05.685 to tackle them if you want to build really really strong, 0:58:05.845 --> 0:58:09.605 long lasting, deep ones. I want to thank you so 0:58:09.725 --> 0:58:13.965 much for your time today. I could speak to you forever. 0:58:15.125 --> 0:58:16.725 Should we should do a follow up? 0:58:17.725 --> 0:58:20.325 Yes, definitely, definitely. I'll bring I'll bring some. 0:58:20.325 --> 0:58:26.285 New red flags that I've discovered about myself. I hope 0:58:26.405 --> 0:58:30.405 doctor Fenwick takes me up on that offer. So do 0:58:30.445 --> 0:58:34.485 you feel like you've had some of your ideas challenged, 0:58:34.885 --> 0:58:37.045 like you have a bit of a more nuanced and 0:58:37.125 --> 0:58:42.285 considered understanding of what other people's behaviors mean and how 0:58:42.325 --> 0:58:46.485 to interpret something that might be screaming red flag but 0:58:46.645 --> 0:58:48.565 might actually be a good. 0:58:48.365 --> 0:58:50.805 Opportunity for some self reflection. 0:58:52.005 --> 0:58:56.125 After this conversation, I'm far more inclined to pause when 0:58:56.125 --> 0:58:59.605 I encounter a red flag in someone else, and to 0:58:59.685 --> 0:59:03.005 think twice and have a bit of a moment to 0:59:03.045 --> 0:59:07.725 look within before bolting or judging, or, as I've been 0:59:07.765 --> 0:59:10.885 known to do, gossiping, and that's the bad kind of gossip. 0:59:11.285 --> 0:59:14.405 I'll probably stick to the positive kind that doctor Fenwick 0:59:14.485 --> 0:59:17.885 says is okay. Whether it's at work, or with our 0:59:17.965 --> 0:59:23.725 families or in romantic relationships. There's an increasing trend I've 0:59:23.765 --> 0:59:28.045 noticed to set boundaries that might end up isolating us, 0:59:28.685 --> 0:59:32.445 and doctor Fenwick's work is a powerful reminder to err 0:59:32.605 --> 0:59:37.085 on the side of connection, of empathy, and of learning 0:59:37.165 --> 0:59:42.925 more about others and about ourselves. The executive producer of 0:59:42.965 --> 0:59:47.045 No Filter is Nama Brown. Audio production and sound design 0:59:47.245 --> 0:59:50.685 by Jacob Brownd. Maya Friedman is the creator and the 0:59:50.765 --> 0:59:53.365 host of No Filter, and it was a joy to 0:59:53.445 --> 0:59:56.965 sit in the big chair for her Today, I'm Claire Stevens. 0:59:57.125 --> 0:59:57.925 Thanks for listening.