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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother and me a podcast. Mama

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Speaker 1: Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that

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Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on. Hey there, Before we start

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Speaker 1: today's episode, I just want to say that you are

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Speaker 1: going to be hearing from some wonderful Muma Mea voices

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Speaker 1: over the next few weeks as I work on another project.

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Speaker 1: Hollywayin wright, Claire Stevens a Nama Brown, who is the

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Speaker 1: executive producer of this show, are all going to be

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Speaker 1: sitting in my chair for a few weeks and doing

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Speaker 1: the same wonderful interviews that you know and love from

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Speaker 1: No Filter. There are some great conversations coming your way

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Speaker 1: about red and green flags in relationships, sex and porn, addiction,

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Speaker 1: escaping from a religious cult, narcissism, sobriety, and more. You'll

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Speaker 1: be hearing from me soon.

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Speaker 2: Enjoy when we run away, when we see the first

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Speaker 2: bread flag. It's not only that we just don't always

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Speaker 2: make the best decisions. We actually lose our ability to

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Speaker 2: be able to deal with difficult situations in our lives.

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Speaker 3: Our brain is like a muscle. You need to train it.

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Speaker 2: That's why you know, it's like a social skill that

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Speaker 2: you need to develop, and yes, you have to face

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Speaker 2: challenging situations your in life to become more resilient.

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Speaker 4: From mommea you're listening to no filter. I'm Claire Stevens,

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Speaker 4: and a not so fun fact about me is that

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Speaker 4: sometimes I can be a dirty, dirty gossip. I like

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Speaker 4: to think that I don't engage in a mean form

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Speaker 4: of gossip.

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Speaker 5: I'm more just like to think.

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Speaker 4: That I'm fascinated by people and their motivations, and really

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Speaker 4: I'm engaging in quite high level behavioral analysis. But I

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Speaker 4: probably have gossiped in a toxic way before, and who.

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Speaker 5: Amongst us as not?

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Speaker 4: And if I'm being really honest and just totally being

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Speaker 4: forthcoming about all the flaws in my character. I also

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Speaker 4: worry that I sometimes have a tendency to be a

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Speaker 4: bit of a selfish friend. I'm always forgetting things like birthdays,

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Speaker 4: and I'm terrible at gift giving. I sometimes think there

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Speaker 4: can be what my guest today refers to as an

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Speaker 4: imbalance of reciprocity in my friendships. I often feel like

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Speaker 4: I'm the one who owes someone something, So are these

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Speaker 4: red flags about me? If someone met me and noticed

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Speaker 4: these things, should they just run for the hills, because

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Speaker 4: these are things that if you were on TikTok or

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Speaker 4: Instagram and you saw a video about red flags, they

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Speaker 4: might come up.

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Speaker 5: Am I just a walking, talking red flag.

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Speaker 4: Well, according to doctor Ali Fenwick, a very engaging behavioral

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Speaker 4: scientist who has written a book called Red Flags, Green Flags,

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Speaker 4: Modern Psychology for everyday drama, it's not that simple because

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Speaker 4: in doctor Fenwick's framework, the red or green flags we

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Speaker 4: see in someone else might actually say more about us

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Speaker 4: than them. Like most people, I first came across the

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Speaker 4: concept of red flags in the context of romantic relationships

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Speaker 4: and dating. So red, green, and even beige flags are everywhere,

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Speaker 4: and we tend to use them as shortcuts to make

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Speaker 4: judgments about people and to decide to just totally abandon

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Speaker 4: mission when you're meeting someone if they say something or

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Speaker 4: indicate some sort of behavior that just doesn't align with

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Speaker 4: what we think a good person does. We do get

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Speaker 4: into flags in romantic relationships, but doctor Fenwick applies his

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Speaker 4: work to all our relationships, including our relationships with our

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Speaker 4: parents and siblings, our workplace, and more.

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Speaker 5: So let's jump in.

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Speaker 4: I started by asking doctor Fenwick what a behavioral scientist

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Speaker 4: actually is.

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Speaker 2: Yes, a behavioral scientist basically studies the behavior and thinking

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Speaker 2: and nature of human beings, either individually or within groups.

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Speaker 2: And of course, as a behavioral scientist, you know, you

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Speaker 2: want to understand what are those factors that really influence

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Speaker 2: people's behaviors, either from the individual or from the environment.

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Speaker 2: And we look at that because we want to understand

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Speaker 2: why people behave the way they do, and also how

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Speaker 2: can we influence people's behaviors to make sometimes better decision

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Speaker 2: for themselves. So I think that, in a nutshell, is

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Speaker 2: what behavioral scientist does.

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Speaker 4: You're well known for the way you communicate quite complex

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Speaker 4: psychological ideas on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook and LinkedIn. I study

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Speaker 4: psychology not at the level that you have, but I

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Speaker 4: know that a crucial part of it is that ability

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Speaker 4: to communicate science in a way that the lay people

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Speaker 4: can understand. When did you start sharing your knowledge on

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Speaker 4: social media?

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Speaker 5: And why?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, phenomenal question. Look, we don't really understand the gen

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Speaker 2: Z generation that well, especially in the classroom, and we

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Speaker 2: we also have a you know, because our work as

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Speaker 2: a professor at a university, it was like, you know,

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Speaker 2: how do we better engage that younger generation in the classroom,

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Speaker 2: because their attention span is you know, it's more and

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Speaker 2: more lower than you know that we're normally used to

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Speaker 2: with adults, for example, the way they engage with content,

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Speaker 2: the way they have to be taught. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: there was this question like, Ali, could you go and

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Speaker 2: investigate this because you know, you're a psychologist here that

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Speaker 2: our business school see if you can help us out

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Speaker 2: a little bit. So of course, you know what what

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Speaker 2: I thought, what was the best place to start? And

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Speaker 2: I thought, let me just go online on social media.

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Speaker 2: I started basically just you know, looking into how people

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Speaker 2: engage and what were they doing online, how are they communicating,

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Speaker 2: how were they you.

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Speaker 3: Know, consuming content?

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Speaker 2: And then eventually I was like, know, could I try

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Speaker 2: to teach people online or get across psychology in a

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Speaker 2: way that is engaging to them in such an online environment,

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Speaker 2: which of course is very different than what you normally

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Speaker 2: do in a classroom. And so I just kind of

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Speaker 2: put that on myself to try it out, and of course,

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Speaker 2: with a lot of trial and error, I eventually came

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Speaker 2: to I don't want to call it a model, but

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Speaker 2: I eventually found my way on social media to get

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Speaker 2: content across in a very engaging way that really related

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Speaker 2: to people, right, And I think that was the reason

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Speaker 2: why I got online to start sharing my content and

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Speaker 2: doing it in the way that I do today.

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Speaker 4: What year was it when you started to really lean

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Speaker 4: in to your content?

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Speaker 2: Right? So I started this because the question came to

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Speaker 2: me in twenty twenty twenty one around I would say,

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Speaker 2: three years ago.

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Speaker 4: So post okay, so interestingly post COVID, so a time

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Speaker 4: when people had actually leant into social media even deeper

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Speaker 4: than they had previously.

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Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, Yes.

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Speaker 2: Also during the pandemic, I was also very present on

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Speaker 2: the news. You know, I was giving people a behavioral

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Speaker 2: perspective to the pandemic, and so I spent a good

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Speaker 2: year on the news talking about the psychological effects of

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Speaker 2: the pandemic on people, or you know, how can we

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Speaker 2: make working from home more effective? Or how will you

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Speaker 2: know all kinds of phenomena that we saw happening in

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Speaker 2: the world, like why are people going out and buying

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Speaker 2: toilet paper for example. I was there to give people

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Speaker 2: a behavioral perspective to why that was happening. So I

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Speaker 2: think that already started before the actual social media engagement

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Speaker 2: actually happened. Once I started investigating that.

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Speaker 4: Question, and do you worry because obviously you're somebody with

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Speaker 4: a very high level qualification, you're somebody with a lot

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Speaker 4: of experience teaching, a lot of experience in research. Do

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Speaker 4: you worry that there are some people who may misinterpret

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Speaker 4: the research or use certain buzzwords from psychology and repackage

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Speaker 4: it in a way that might be dangerous online.

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Speaker 2: I think you're asking a very valid questions. First of all,

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Speaker 2: social media is an unfiltered environment, right, so anyone can

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Speaker 2: jump in and just kind of put stuff out there,

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Speaker 2: and that by itself is not always you know, it's

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Speaker 2: you know, that could be potentially dangerous because you know,

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Speaker 2: people are just saying stuff and you see people talking

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Speaker 2: about you know, foods and nutrition and all these kinds

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Speaker 2: of things that might not be even even that healthy

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Speaker 2: for you. So I think from that perspective, anything that

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Speaker 2: you put online, you know, you should take it with

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Speaker 2: a grain of salt. When it comes to psychology, I mean,

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Speaker 2: of course, it's a lot of buzzwords and a lot

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Speaker 2: of trends of course being thrown around left and right,

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Speaker 2: and I often think that people don't really understand the

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Speaker 2: underlying factors that underlie that, or if there's no underlying

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Speaker 2: factors at all that underlie that. So, yes, that exists online.

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Speaker 2: I also see the positive side of that as well.

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Speaker 2: I also think that because people now are much more

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Speaker 2: aware about, you know, why people treat each other like

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Speaker 2: they do in relationships, or why do people feel the

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Speaker 2: way they do as an individual, I think people have

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Speaker 2: become much more aware of themselves in.

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Speaker 3: The relationship that they have with other people.

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Speaker 2: And I think, you know, that is also a positive

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Speaker 2: aspect of it as well. But you're right, you know,

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Speaker 2: I think social media has this unfiltered aspect to it,

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Speaker 2: which makes it sometimes you know, we need to be

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Speaker 2: a bit more critical about what we see online.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And I think that a lot of your

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Speaker 4: recent work has been on red flags and how we

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Speaker 4: approach them, and this idea of red flags, green flags,

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Speaker 4: beije flags have It's been huge on social media and

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Speaker 4: it's huge in just our conversations with each other.

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Speaker 5: Why do you think we are.

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Speaker 4: So determined to have the kind of verifiable red flags

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Speaker 4: that we can look at.

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Speaker 5: Why are we drawn to this concept?

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Speaker 2: Well, look, we live in a very fast paced world nowadays, right,

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Speaker 2: and so quick decision making is often heralded in today's society.

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Speaker 3: Work with friends and whatnot.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's one of the main reasons why people,

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Speaker 2: you know, do very much like the kind of red

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Speaker 2: and green flag phenomena. The red and green flag phenomena

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Speaker 2: initially started in the dating world, and why because a

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Speaker 2: lot of people are very unhappy about their dating lives,

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Speaker 2: and you know, many people don't want to commit anymore

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Speaker 2: in relationships and and so you know a lot of

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Speaker 2: people are getting very frustrated with that, and so it's

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Speaker 2: always good to have a way of, you know, quickly

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Speaker 2: being able to assess if a potential partner is you know,

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Speaker 2: a green flag or a potential red flag in many

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Speaker 2: different ways.

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Speaker 3: And that's how it initially started.

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Speaker 2: And so since then it's kind of, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: gone from the dating world into other kind of social domains,

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Speaker 2: so for example, work life, family and friends, romance and marriage.

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Speaker 2: And people very much enjoy that, again just because they

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Speaker 2: want to have quick and easy answers to you know,

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Speaker 2: the dilemmas that they deal in their lives.

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Speaker 3: However, I should put a side.

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Speaker 2: Note to that. The quick decision making is also not

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Speaker 2: good for us either, right, can trip us up, can

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Speaker 2: lead to biased outcomes.

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Speaker 3: And so that's why, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, when when I wrote the book about red flags

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Speaker 2: and green flags, I wanted to provide people with the

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Speaker 2: red and green flags, the solid ones, you know, the

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Speaker 2: well understood ones, the well researched read and green flags

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Speaker 2: you know, and these are healthy indicators, and these are

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Speaker 2: unhealthy indicators of behavior. But I also wanted to provide

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Speaker 2: people with a process as well, to slow down their

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Speaker 2: thinking and to be more mindful and reflective or why

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Speaker 2: they do the things they do, so that they can,

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Speaker 2: you know, not only make the right decisions in the moment,

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Speaker 2: but also can be more reflective about their behaviors and

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Speaker 2: hopefully lead to better decision making in the process.

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Speaker 4: I loved that concept because something I worry about, and

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Speaker 4: you've written about this, the idea that we're living in

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Speaker 4: such a highly individualized culture that the way we're responding

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Speaker 4: and interacting with each other changes because of that. And

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Speaker 4: I think sometimes the way red flags are presented is

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Speaker 4: you say a thing, you run the other way. And

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Speaker 4: what I love is that your book entirely challenges that narrative,

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Speaker 4: and your idea is no, no, no, no. You look at

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Speaker 4: a red flag and there's kind of a there's a

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Speaker 4: process to follow. Can you explain what the process is

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Speaker 4: when you recognize a red flag?

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Speaker 2: Exactly what I did in the book is I used

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Speaker 2: red and green as an acronym. So red in this

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Speaker 2: case stands for reflect, engage in deside. So don't run

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Speaker 2: away immediately when you see a red flag. Now why

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Speaker 2: do I say that? I think, and this is kind

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Speaker 2: of the psychological effects of you know, quick decision making

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Speaker 2: in today's world. You know, I think when we run

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Speaker 2: away when we see the first red flag, it's not

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Speaker 2: only that we just don't always make the best decisions,

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Speaker 2: we actually lose our ability to be able to deal

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Speaker 2: with difficult you know, situations in our lives. Our brain

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Speaker 2: is like a muscle. You need to train it. That's why,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's like a social skill that you need

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Speaker 2: to develop. And yes, you have to face challenging such

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Speaker 2: your life to become more resilient.

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Speaker 3: And so that's why.

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Speaker 2: That the red acronym of reflect engage society is when

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Speaker 2: you see a red flag, don't immediately run away because

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Speaker 2: nine out of ten times it won't be something that

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Speaker 2: you probably have to run away from. Because when you

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Speaker 2: see a red flag in somebody else, it could mean

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Speaker 2: that you might be the red flag. And so when

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Speaker 2: you reflect on it, Okay, what's happening to me right now?

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Speaker 2: Why am I feeling this way? Why am I getting triggered?

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Speaker 2: Then you can start to engage with it, either engage

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Speaker 2: with it to figure out more. Is this truly a

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Speaker 2: red flag that I'm seeing in somebody else? Or why

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Speaker 2: am I getting so triggered about it? What's it about

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Speaker 2: me that I you know that I don't like about

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Speaker 2: this person? Or what I why do I see this

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Speaker 2: in this other person? And so you start to reflect

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Speaker 2: on that, and if you really reflect and become more introspective,

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Speaker 2: you might see that it might have to do with

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Speaker 2: something from your past or from a past experience, or

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Speaker 2: you it's something that's inside of you and not in

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Speaker 2: the other person. And I think that reflective capability is

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Speaker 2: something that we're losing in a world that we're you know,

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Speaker 2: when we're just kind of pushed to make these fast

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Speaker 2: and quick decisions.

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Speaker 3: And that's why I wanted to provide.

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Speaker 2: That method there so that people could definitely become more

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Speaker 2: mindful about their interactions with people. Because I also feel

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Speaker 2: that you know, not just what we see in the

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Speaker 2: dating world, but also what we see with friendships and family.

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Speaker 2: People are so easy to let go of people nowadays,

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Speaker 2: and human relationships are the cornerstone of our health, of

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Speaker 2: our mental well being, you know, of our success in life.

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Speaker 2: So I think that's the main reason why I came

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Speaker 2: up with that, with that process to help people improve

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Speaker 2: their decision making.

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Speaker 4: I loved that concept that sometimes is actually reflecting something

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Speaker 4: about you, and that there's a bit of a symbiotic

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Speaker 4: relationship between what you're bringing to that particular red flag exactly.

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Speaker 4: Then you've got a green flag, and there's kind of

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Speaker 4: a process around that and your idea around what a

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Speaker 4: green flag actually means?

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Speaker 5: Can you break that down absolutely?

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Speaker 2: So, as I mentioned before, green is also an acronym

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Speaker 2: in the book, So green stands for genuine, respectful, elevating, empathetic,

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Speaker 2: and nurturing. So basically, green behaviors have all or some

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Speaker 2: of these attributes related to it. And so when we

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Speaker 2: think of a behavior, can that behavior be elevating, could

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Speaker 2: it be nurturing?

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Speaker 3: Is it respectful?

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Speaker 2: And so that's a way for us to evaluate if

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Speaker 2: something is of unhealthier behavior. But also what I say

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Speaker 2: in the book is that we, you know, having also

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Speaker 2: us ourselves, we need to also make sure that we

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Speaker 2: nurture the green behaviors that we see in people, because

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Speaker 2: we often take them for granted, and when we you know,

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Speaker 2: our brains are being naturally designed to identify warning signs

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Speaker 2: in our.

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Speaker 3: Lives as a way to keep us alive.

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Speaker 2: So we're so much more tuned to the negative than

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Speaker 2: to the positive. But if you want your positive behaviors

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Speaker 2: or of that of others to continue, it's also so

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Speaker 2: important to nurture those behaviors as well. And that's something

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Speaker 2: that I think often gets forgotten this whole discussion around

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Speaker 2: green flags. It's like you need to nurture them, you know,

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Speaker 2: don't just take them for anted, you know, do something

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Speaker 2: about that positively reinforce that behavior. I really like the

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Speaker 2: fact that you listen to what I was saying, but

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Speaker 2: also to what I was not saying. That really made

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Speaker 2: me felt heard and listened to. So in those kind

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Speaker 2: of interactions that you can have with people, you can

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Speaker 2: also feed that back, and I think that's just another

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Speaker 2: great way of sustaining positive relationships with people and ensuring

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Speaker 2: that you know, those green behaviors continue as well.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you really added kind of a depth

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Speaker 4: to that concept of green flags, because you can just

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Speaker 4: think it's something that I like, and then breaking it down,

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Speaker 4: there's a really deep psychological reason why we like it.

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Speaker 4: You do divide the book into four sections. There's one

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Speaker 4: on family and friendships, one on work relationships, one on dating,

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Speaker 4: one on romantic relationships.

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Speaker 5: And at the end of the book.

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Speaker 4: You've got a bit of a kind of quiz about

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Speaker 4: that you can do with a partner, any kind of

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Speaker 4: person in your life. And I to look at some

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Speaker 4: of the questions and it sort of gets you to

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Speaker 4: look at your own personal red flag. So I thought

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Speaker 4: I might bring two of mine to you, and I'd

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Speaker 4: like you to help me work through them. So first

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Speaker 4: my first red flag gossiping.

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Speaker 2: OK.

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Speaker 4: And when I read what you wrote about gossiping, you

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Speaker 4: go into why we gossip, which I thought was great

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Speaker 4: because that really validated why I do it in the

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Speaker 4: first place. But do you want to kind of take

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Speaker 4: us through when gossiping turns toxic at like when it

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Speaker 4: is a red flag and when it's okay.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, gossiping is part of human nature, right. We

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Speaker 2: all like to gossip. And I think also what I

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Speaker 2: mentioned in the book when I talk about gossiping, is

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Speaker 2: that there's you know, different cultures have all the different

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Speaker 2: types of names for people who gossip, and it's so

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Speaker 2: ingrained into us cross culture. And so gossip serves a

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Speaker 2: purpose in society, right, It's a very important purpose because

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Speaker 2: it's a way for us to kind of feel also

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Speaker 2: a little bit more safer when we feel uncertain, so

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Speaker 2: we talk about things and we share things. It's also

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Speaker 2: a way in the past, it was kind of like

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Speaker 2: a more of a social control in a sense within

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Speaker 2: a social system. If we wanted to make sure that

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Speaker 2: people didn't do things that were bad for our survival

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Speaker 2: within a social system, within a social group, then of

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Speaker 2: course gossiping served as a way to punish people if

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Speaker 2: they did something bad, right, and so you would be

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Speaker 2: kind of no, I wouldn't say outcasted, but it was

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Speaker 2: a way to have people understand, you know, ware you

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Speaker 2: contributing to the social group that you belong to or not.

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Speaker 2: And so again it's interesting people don't often think That's

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Speaker 2: why I love going so deep into the construct of

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Speaker 2: gossiping and what it serves again when we feel unsafe

364
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Speaker 2: or you know, for example, in the workplace, when a

365
00:19:01,965 --> 00:19:04,845
Speaker 2: lot of change happens, people gossip, right, And they don't

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Speaker 2: do that because they have bad intent.

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Speaker 3: They often do that because they kind of want.

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Speaker 2: To bond with people. They're very uncertain of what's really

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Speaker 2: happening to them, and so they talk and said did

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Speaker 2: you hear about this? And did you hear about that?

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Speaker 3: And so it does serve.

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Speaker 2: A psychological purpose for why we engage in it. Now

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Speaker 2: in the book, I dicyct gossip into two parts. Right,

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Speaker 2: positive gossip, Yes, it exists. Positive gossip exists. So people,

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Speaker 2: if you're out there listening, please do gossip, but do

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Speaker 2: it in a positive way, and of course read the

377
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Speaker 2: book to find out how to do that. So positive

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Speaker 2: gossip is actually, you know, where you kind of you

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Speaker 2: know when people say, well, your your reputation precedes here, right,

380
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Speaker 2: we heard such great things about you, and and you know,

381
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Speaker 2: you share stuff about the other person that you know,

382
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Speaker 2: is you know, we'll put them in what we enhance

383
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Speaker 2: the reputation and is something positive that you do. That's

384
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Speaker 2: kind of more of the positive gossip that we engage in,

385
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Speaker 2: which is always a good thing to do because again

386
00:19:57,485 --> 00:20:01,005
Speaker 2: gossiping is part of human nature. But again gossiping can

387
00:20:01,005 --> 00:20:03,165
Speaker 2: also be very negative. So when isn't a red flag

388
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Speaker 2: is when you are using gossip to intentionally hurt somebody

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Speaker 2: or their reputation. Unfortunate thing about gossip, either with friends, family,

390
00:20:11,925 --> 00:20:14,445
Speaker 2: or in the workplace, it's hard to it's hard to

391
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Speaker 2: go again, especially when it becomes part of a social

392
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Speaker 2: construct or you know, it becomes part of the of

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Speaker 2: the social discussion. You know, how do you go against

394
00:20:23,285 --> 00:20:25,845
Speaker 2: gossip when it's not true? And so I think, you know,

395
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Speaker 2: people should be aware of why they gossip in the

396
00:20:28,965 --> 00:20:31,925
Speaker 2: first place. It's more reflective. I am I gossiping because

397
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Speaker 2: I'm scared I want to hurt somebody?

398
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Speaker 3: What's the reason why I'm doing this?

399
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Speaker 2: That's not always easy for somebody, first of all, but

400
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Speaker 2: I think it's very important to become more aware of

401
00:20:40,685 --> 00:20:42,925
Speaker 2: why you gossip. And then second of all, you know,

402
00:20:43,285 --> 00:20:46,965
Speaker 2: what is this gossip serving? Is it serving me? Is

403
00:20:47,005 --> 00:20:50,045
Speaker 2: it serving the other person? Am I trying to be vindictive?

404
00:20:50,445 --> 00:20:52,725
Speaker 2: You know? I think that's that's when when it's on

405
00:20:52,805 --> 00:20:55,285
Speaker 2: the negative end, that's when I consider the gossip to

406
00:20:55,325 --> 00:20:58,245
Speaker 2: be very negative. Again, coming back to in summary to

407
00:20:58,285 --> 00:21:00,485
Speaker 2: saying that there's a positive aspect to it, but there's

408
00:21:00,485 --> 00:21:02,965
Speaker 2: also very much a negative aspect to it, and I

409
00:21:03,005 --> 00:21:06,165
Speaker 2: think as a guideline, where you hurt someone intentionally or

410
00:21:06,165 --> 00:21:09,605
Speaker 2: you're trying to ruin someone's reputation, you know, that's that's

411
00:21:09,645 --> 00:21:11,525
Speaker 2: when I definitely say it's a red flag, watch out

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Speaker 2: for that.

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Speaker 4: And I think one thing I've noticed in social situations

414
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Speaker 4: around gossip is that if people are gossiping and you

415
00:21:22,845 --> 00:21:24,725
Speaker 4: kind of want to go against it, so say they're

416
00:21:24,765 --> 00:21:27,125
Speaker 4: all having a shared reality of a situation or a

417
00:21:27,205 --> 00:21:30,085
Speaker 4: person and you want to go against it, you can

418
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Speaker 4: feel quite disagreeable and as though you're going against the

419
00:21:34,005 --> 00:21:36,925
Speaker 4: social cohesion of the moment, and.

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Speaker 5: That's really hard.

421
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Speaker 4: And so I think you write quite a bit about

422
00:21:41,165 --> 00:21:44,645
Speaker 4: people pleases and how people pleasing comes up in when

423
00:21:44,645 --> 00:21:46,645
Speaker 4: it comes to all sorts of red flags. And I

424
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Speaker 4: think when I read about gossiping that came up for

425
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Speaker 4: me that I thought, sometimes it's a way of kind

426
00:21:54,965 --> 00:21:57,805
Speaker 4: of making a social situation more comfortable that you're like, oh,

427
00:21:57,965 --> 00:22:01,045
Speaker 4: just join in and agree because I want people to

428
00:22:01,245 --> 00:22:06,365
Speaker 4: like me. But I think we all know deep down

429
00:22:06,725 --> 00:22:10,725
Speaker 4: when we are gossiped too, we're pretty sure we're going

430
00:22:10,805 --> 00:22:13,885
Speaker 4: to be gossiped about and it's a pretty gross feeling.

431
00:22:15,525 --> 00:22:20,725
Speaker 4: So I found that discussion of red flag fascinating. The

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Speaker 4: other one that I wanted to talk to you about

433
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Speaker 4: is the idea of being a bit of a selfish friend.

434
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Speaker 4: So you write about the friend who doesn't reciprocate. That

435
00:22:35,165 --> 00:22:39,245
Speaker 4: social relationships are based on reciprocity. That the idea is,

436
00:22:39,525 --> 00:22:42,085
Speaker 4: you know, you buy dinner one time, I'll buy dinner

437
00:22:42,165 --> 00:22:44,765
Speaker 4: the next time, and that goes for you know, levels

438
00:22:44,765 --> 00:22:47,125
Speaker 4: of disclosure, that goes for all sorts of things.

439
00:22:48,725 --> 00:22:50,565
Speaker 5: I wanted to ask you.

440
00:22:51,525 --> 00:22:53,965
Speaker 4: Sometimes I think of it in terms of love languages

441
00:22:54,085 --> 00:22:57,245
Speaker 4: that for example, I'm not a gift person. I don't

442
00:22:57,285 --> 00:22:59,805
Speaker 4: like to receive gifts, and I don't I'm terrible at

443
00:22:59,845 --> 00:23:01,765
Speaker 4: giving them because they're not important to me.

444
00:23:03,405 --> 00:23:07,445
Speaker 5: With things like that, if I'm.

445
00:23:07,205 --> 00:23:09,725
Speaker 4: Not a person who's going to give gifts when I've

446
00:23:09,725 --> 00:23:13,205
Speaker 4: received them, or if I'm crap at organizing so I

447
00:23:13,245 --> 00:23:16,605
Speaker 4: never booked the dinner, Am I a walking red flag?

448
00:23:18,445 --> 00:23:22,005
Speaker 2: No? No, Look, I mean look, as you mentioned, every

449
00:23:22,005 --> 00:23:25,565
Speaker 2: relationship you know is based on this level of reciprocity.

450
00:23:25,605 --> 00:23:27,285
Speaker 3: It's what strengthens human bonds.

451
00:23:27,565 --> 00:23:29,325
Speaker 2: I do something for you, you do something for me.

452
00:23:29,845 --> 00:23:32,445
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that you know, there's there's there's various

453
00:23:32,445 --> 00:23:35,405
Speaker 2: types of way of how we reciprocate to people, and

454
00:23:35,565 --> 00:23:37,685
Speaker 2: you know, it doesn't mean that, for example, in a

455
00:23:37,725 --> 00:23:41,205
Speaker 2: love language context, for example, that you know, I gift

456
00:23:41,205 --> 00:23:43,765
Speaker 2: giving is something that somebody your partner might like and

457
00:23:43,805 --> 00:23:46,165
Speaker 2: another person doesn't like. But it could also just be

458
00:23:46,245 --> 00:23:48,845
Speaker 2: words of affirmation. It could also be a you know,

459
00:23:49,005 --> 00:23:51,605
Speaker 2: physical physical touch. It could also be something that you

460
00:23:51,645 --> 00:23:54,205
Speaker 2: do for another person. Doesn't have to be exactly in

461
00:23:54,285 --> 00:23:56,645
Speaker 2: that kind of and you know, in the same way

462
00:23:56,765 --> 00:23:59,005
Speaker 2: like I invite you, you invite me. Of course that

463
00:23:59,045 --> 00:24:02,325
Speaker 2: should happen, but reciprocity happens, especially when the relationship becomes

464
00:24:02,365 --> 00:24:05,965
Speaker 2: more complex and more deeper, that you reciprocate in many

465
00:24:05,965 --> 00:24:09,525
Speaker 2: different ways. So it doesn't have to specifically.

466
00:24:08,805 --> 00:24:11,285
Speaker 3: Be that you give something back and me to be

467
00:24:11,325 --> 00:24:12,005
Speaker 3: at the same level.

468
00:24:12,005 --> 00:24:15,605
Speaker 2: Maybe in the beginning of relationships and friendships you do that,

469
00:24:15,685 --> 00:24:18,165
Speaker 2: but over time that changes, right, And in the book,

470
00:24:18,205 --> 00:24:21,005
Speaker 2: I also mentioned about the emotional bank account that you

471
00:24:21,045 --> 00:24:24,125
Speaker 2: build up with people. So and what is an emotional

472
00:24:24,165 --> 00:24:27,245
Speaker 2: bank account? So basically, you know, you know, exchanges don't

473
00:24:27,245 --> 00:24:30,805
Speaker 2: always happen in a fair way, and I mean or

474
00:24:30,885 --> 00:24:34,365
Speaker 2: in a balanced way. Sometimes ticket in families and relationships,

475
00:24:34,405 --> 00:24:36,005
Speaker 2: you know you need to do a little bit more

476
00:24:36,005 --> 00:24:38,285
Speaker 2: for somebody else, or someone else does a little bit

477
00:24:38,285 --> 00:24:40,645
Speaker 2: more for you. But if you've already built up an

478
00:24:40,685 --> 00:24:42,925
Speaker 2: emotional bank account, you know that you can trust another

479
00:24:42,965 --> 00:24:45,805
Speaker 2: person and that you you know you've got a very

480
00:24:45,845 --> 00:24:48,765
Speaker 2: strong and long term relationship with another person, then there's

481
00:24:48,805 --> 00:24:51,845
Speaker 2: something of a buffer there, as it may, and that

482
00:24:51,885 --> 00:24:54,685
Speaker 2: buffer becomes your emotional bank account. So when there are

483
00:24:54,685 --> 00:24:56,925
Speaker 2: times come that you need to give more, you do,

484
00:24:58,045 --> 00:25:00,805
Speaker 2: but you do always still take into consideration that that

485
00:25:00,885 --> 00:25:04,645
Speaker 2: will be reciprocated over time. But what can happen, and

486
00:25:04,725 --> 00:25:06,685
Speaker 2: this is where the red flag aspect comes in, is

487
00:25:06,685 --> 00:25:09,765
Speaker 2: that sometimes people get so used to you giving more

488
00:25:10,285 --> 00:25:14,245
Speaker 2: than you actually taking and that unbalances the power relationship

489
00:25:14,325 --> 00:25:17,485
Speaker 2: or the relationship you know in general, and then eventually

490
00:25:17,565 --> 00:25:19,805
Speaker 2: it becomes like, oh, I'm expecting you to give this

491
00:25:19,925 --> 00:25:22,605
Speaker 2: to me, And that's when you know, I think it's

492
00:25:22,645 --> 00:25:25,325
Speaker 2: a good warning sign, a red flag to watch out

493
00:25:25,365 --> 00:25:29,245
Speaker 2: for it when you know eventually things are not being

494
00:25:29,325 --> 00:25:30,925
Speaker 2: reciprocated anymore.

495
00:25:36,685 --> 00:25:40,205
Speaker 4: After this short break, doctor Fenwick and I discuss the

496
00:25:40,325 --> 00:25:49,685
Speaker 4: challenge of toxic relationships with parents stay with us. There's

497
00:25:49,685 --> 00:25:54,645
Speaker 4: a red flag in the book around the unavailable or

498
00:25:54,765 --> 00:26:00,725
Speaker 4: unreliable parent, and this I know is huge in a

499
00:26:00,765 --> 00:26:04,605
Speaker 4: lot of my friendships that people really struggle with how

500
00:26:04,645 --> 00:26:08,085
Speaker 4: they are meant to engage with a parent who didn't

501
00:26:08,085 --> 00:26:14,965
Speaker 4: give them what they need. Can you explain how you

502
00:26:15,125 --> 00:26:18,685
Speaker 4: approach that red flag and the nuances that come with it?

503
00:26:19,245 --> 00:26:21,685
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, Look, I mean I don't think that the

504
00:26:21,805 --> 00:26:23,725
Speaker 2: chapter that I wrote. I think that was chapter number

505
00:26:23,765 --> 00:26:25,885
Speaker 2: two that I wrote, the red flag number two. You know,

506
00:26:25,965 --> 00:26:28,605
Speaker 2: it doesn't do complete justice to that, to the whole

507
00:26:28,685 --> 00:26:32,605
Speaker 2: field of you know, neglect, abuse and not being not

508
00:26:32,645 --> 00:26:35,845
Speaker 2: getting enough attention from a parent in your childhood. There's

509
00:26:35,885 --> 00:26:38,525
Speaker 2: so many consequences to that, right, and so what I

510
00:26:38,565 --> 00:26:40,685
Speaker 2: do do in that chapter is I do highlight some

511
00:26:40,765 --> 00:26:44,685
Speaker 2: of the consequences. Again, I provide that psychodynamic perspective, So

512
00:26:44,805 --> 00:26:47,485
Speaker 2: how that you know how your childhood and how for example,

513
00:26:47,845 --> 00:26:50,405
Speaker 2: you know, having that experience not having the right you know,

514
00:26:50,525 --> 00:26:53,045
Speaker 2: upbringing or not getting the right support as a child

515
00:26:53,125 --> 00:26:56,525
Speaker 2: can actually have a huge impact on how you form relationships,

516
00:26:56,525 --> 00:26:59,965
Speaker 2: but later in life, how you attach to people, emotional regulation,

517
00:27:00,045 --> 00:27:02,045
Speaker 2: and also how you see yourself right, in terms of

518
00:27:02,045 --> 00:27:03,085
Speaker 2: self esteem.

519
00:27:03,165 --> 00:27:07,765
Speaker 5: Do you think that there's a clear way to tell.

520
00:27:09,125 --> 00:27:14,085
Speaker 4: When it is time to end a relationship with a

521
00:27:14,125 --> 00:27:18,205
Speaker 4: parent that because there's a big kind of trend about

522
00:27:18,445 --> 00:27:23,205
Speaker 4: talking about cutting people off and when to just walk away,

523
00:27:23,245 --> 00:27:26,165
Speaker 4: and you know, we know it Mayo. When we write

524
00:27:26,165 --> 00:27:30,565
Speaker 4: a story about that, we get huge engagement, We get

525
00:27:30,765 --> 00:27:34,725
Speaker 4: huge amounts of feedback from our audience saying that they

526
00:27:34,765 --> 00:27:41,045
Speaker 4: are dealing with that. How do you, as a behavioral psychologist,

527
00:27:41,885 --> 00:27:44,325
Speaker 4: think that somebody should go about making that decision?

528
00:27:45,245 --> 00:27:48,405
Speaker 2: Look, that is a really personal decision, right, I mean

529
00:27:48,405 --> 00:27:51,085
Speaker 2: breaking off of parents. But I do now see that

530
00:27:51,245 --> 00:27:53,685
Speaker 2: you know a lot more people are thinking about it. Look,

531
00:27:53,725 --> 00:27:55,405
Speaker 2: I think this is again, I'm going to bring it back.

532
00:27:55,445 --> 00:27:57,485
Speaker 2: It's a personal question, back into the kind of red

533
00:27:57,565 --> 00:28:04,405
Speaker 2: flag analogy. If your parental relationships, your family relationships are

534
00:28:04,605 --> 00:28:07,725
Speaker 2: hurting your well being, your physical and mental well being,

535
00:28:08,405 --> 00:28:11,685
Speaker 2: then I always say you should try to take distance.

536
00:28:11,685 --> 00:28:13,645
Speaker 2: And it's not easy and it's not possible for everybody.

537
00:28:13,685 --> 00:28:15,285
Speaker 2: We need to be mindful of that as well. Right,

538
00:28:15,725 --> 00:28:18,045
Speaker 2: everyone can just say, oh, I'm going to say bye

539
00:28:18,085 --> 00:28:20,165
Speaker 2: to my parents, But at the same time, I think

540
00:28:20,165 --> 00:28:23,325
Speaker 2: we're also saying goodbye too easy. And that's where I

541
00:28:23,365 --> 00:28:25,885
Speaker 2: want to challenge sometimes this idea of just you know,

542
00:28:25,925 --> 00:28:28,005
Speaker 2: I've got an argument with my parents or my parents

543
00:28:28,045 --> 00:28:30,245
Speaker 2: don't accept me as I am. But you know, everything

544
00:28:30,285 --> 00:28:33,445
Speaker 2: takes time, you know, and then eventually it's about how

545
00:28:33,565 --> 00:28:36,485
Speaker 2: you deal with your relationships in the future that actually

546
00:28:36,485 --> 00:28:39,765
Speaker 2: make relationships successful. And again I come back to kind

547
00:28:39,765 --> 00:28:42,965
Speaker 2: of this idea of that relationships are you know, your

548
00:28:43,005 --> 00:28:46,405
Speaker 2: ability to form and sustain relationships is it's a muscle

549
00:28:46,405 --> 00:28:49,725
Speaker 2: that you need to continue to strengthen. So distancing, I

550
00:28:49,965 --> 00:28:53,765
Speaker 2: would always say when it comes to family, distancing is always,

551
00:28:54,125 --> 00:28:56,845
Speaker 2: you know, is a good option if things are really

552
00:28:56,885 --> 00:29:01,605
Speaker 2: not working out for you again, mental physical abuse, distance yourself.

553
00:29:02,885 --> 00:29:04,085
Speaker 3: Let's talk about siblings.

554
00:29:04,085 --> 00:29:06,565
Speaker 2: You know, there are so many siblings that I think

555
00:29:06,645 --> 00:29:09,605
Speaker 2: more siblings actually take distance from each other and even

556
00:29:09,605 --> 00:29:11,845
Speaker 2: speak to each other again. And actually that you know,

557
00:29:11,965 --> 00:29:15,125
Speaker 2: kids distance themselves from their parents or let's you know,

558
00:29:15,205 --> 00:29:18,085
Speaker 2: completely disconnect from their parents. But I do think taking

559
00:29:18,125 --> 00:29:21,565
Speaker 2: time out and giving people time to become the person

560
00:29:21,605 --> 00:29:23,405
Speaker 2: that they need to become, or to become more aware

561
00:29:23,405 --> 00:29:25,445
Speaker 2: of why they behave the way they do, I think

562
00:29:25,565 --> 00:29:28,885
Speaker 2: is really really important. I think time can heal many things,

563
00:29:28,885 --> 00:29:31,205
Speaker 2: but not everything. But also at the same time, it's

564
00:29:31,245 --> 00:29:35,405
Speaker 2: really important that you also consider, you know, how you

565
00:29:35,485 --> 00:29:38,605
Speaker 2: want to continue relationship with your parents, maybe at the

566
00:29:38,645 --> 00:29:40,285
Speaker 2: top point of time that you're really in a big

567
00:29:40,365 --> 00:29:42,605
Speaker 2: argument with them, that you take distance from them, so

568
00:29:42,725 --> 00:29:44,605
Speaker 2: I don't want to see you again. But maybe also

569
00:29:44,645 --> 00:29:47,365
Speaker 2: there's parts of you that say, you know, you're still

570
00:29:47,405 --> 00:29:50,165
Speaker 2: my mother, you're still my father. You know, I might

571
00:29:50,325 --> 00:29:53,005
Speaker 2: not respect you anymore, or I might not you know,

572
00:29:53,125 --> 00:29:55,605
Speaker 2: I love you anymore, but you're still part of me

573
00:29:55,685 --> 00:29:57,925
Speaker 2: and I and I you know, I definitely want to

574
00:29:57,925 --> 00:29:59,565
Speaker 2: see if we can find a way in the future

575
00:30:00,445 --> 00:30:03,165
Speaker 2: so we can sele that. But again, there are many

576
00:30:03,245 --> 00:30:05,965
Speaker 2: situations that we know of that are very terrible, like

577
00:30:06,085 --> 00:30:10,245
Speaker 2: very abusive kind of relationships and where people really can't

578
00:30:10,725 --> 00:30:13,205
Speaker 2: you accept anymore of being part of their lives or

579
00:30:13,245 --> 00:30:15,765
Speaker 2: even wanting to be connected to them, and then those

580
00:30:16,125 --> 00:30:20,245
Speaker 2: extreme situations. I do believe that, you know, completely distancing

581
00:30:20,285 --> 00:30:23,925
Speaker 2: yourself from a parent is a viable option, But I

582
00:30:24,325 --> 00:30:27,405
Speaker 2: would like to challenge this idea of you know, oh,

583
00:30:27,605 --> 00:30:29,485
Speaker 2: you have a fight this distance to shell from them. No,

584
00:30:30,165 --> 00:30:32,245
Speaker 2: I think with family it's a little bit harder than

585
00:30:32,365 --> 00:30:33,965
Speaker 2: actually with maybe with friends.

586
00:30:34,605 --> 00:30:40,725
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I think sometimes people misunderstand boundaries a little bit.

587
00:30:41,485 --> 00:30:45,045
Speaker 4: Where for example, I think a lot of people find

588
00:30:45,125 --> 00:30:48,565
Speaker 4: that your relationship with your parents can be really complicated

589
00:30:48,965 --> 00:30:52,485
Speaker 4: and quite loaded. And I always joke that when my

590
00:30:52,565 --> 00:30:54,925
Speaker 4: siblings and my parents all get together, we.

591
00:30:54,845 --> 00:30:57,525
Speaker 5: All regress to who we were as teenages.

592
00:30:58,165 --> 00:31:01,325
Speaker 4: So sometimes you bring out the worst versions of each

593
00:31:01,325 --> 00:31:03,925
Speaker 4: other and I become somebody that I'm not usually, and

594
00:31:04,285 --> 00:31:07,005
Speaker 4: I annoy my brothers, and there's all this stuff going on,

595
00:31:07,245 --> 00:31:10,605
Speaker 4: and you can kind of look at that and find it,

596
00:31:10,805 --> 00:31:13,045
Speaker 4: you know, think oh, this is uncomfortable, so I'll just

597
00:31:13,085 --> 00:31:17,365
Speaker 4: avoid it all together. But that idea of actually building

598
00:31:17,365 --> 00:31:22,045
Speaker 4: a muscle, because they're also the longest relationships that you

599
00:31:22,165 --> 00:31:25,965
Speaker 4: have in your entire life. Something else that comes up

600
00:31:26,245 --> 00:31:29,925
Speaker 4: a lot in the social media space is this idea

601
00:31:30,125 --> 00:31:34,165
Speaker 4: of the narcissist or a psychopath and what you're meant

602
00:31:34,165 --> 00:31:38,125
Speaker 4: to do when you encounter them. And people love labeling

603
00:31:38,165 --> 00:31:43,205
Speaker 4: people nists when they Yes, yes they're not as common

604
00:31:43,445 --> 00:31:49,285
Speaker 4: as TikTok would have you believe. But the idea around psychopathy,

605
00:31:49,325 --> 00:31:52,245
Speaker 4: for example, is that these people are not capable of empathy.

606
00:31:52,645 --> 00:31:57,045
Speaker 4: They are cruel they'll create chaos, they'll use whatever emotional

607
00:31:57,085 --> 00:32:01,725
Speaker 4: disclosures you make to them against you, So run away.

608
00:32:03,125 --> 00:32:07,845
Speaker 4: What's your idea when it comes to those types of

609
00:32:07,885 --> 00:32:13,285
Speaker 4: people that people really recognize as being narcissistic or kind

610
00:32:13,325 --> 00:32:17,685
Speaker 4: of emotionally or just devoid of empathy.

611
00:32:17,845 --> 00:32:18,805
Speaker 3: Well, I mean it depends.

612
00:32:18,925 --> 00:32:24,165
Speaker 2: Look true narcissists, right, people that actually have narcissistic personality disorder,

613
00:32:24,685 --> 00:32:27,765
Speaker 2: or who are psychopaths or very I mean, the prevalence

614
00:32:27,805 --> 00:32:31,205
Speaker 2: in society is very low. Right, psychopathy is about one

615
00:32:31,245 --> 00:32:35,245
Speaker 2: percent of the population. And again, you're right, just mention

616
00:32:35,285 --> 00:32:36,645
Speaker 2: that we're so at the moment that we don't like

617
00:32:36,685 --> 00:32:40,445
Speaker 2: something about somebody, we immediately label them as a narcissist. Right,

618
00:32:40,645 --> 00:32:43,005
Speaker 2: Oh you don't do something for me, Oh, you're a narcissist.

619
00:32:43,245 --> 00:32:44,685
Speaker 2: And I think that's the thing that we need to

620
00:32:44,765 --> 00:32:49,325
Speaker 2: watch out for. So true narcissist if we engage with them,

621
00:32:49,845 --> 00:32:53,005
Speaker 2: or a true psychopath. I mean, the best thing to

622
00:32:53,045 --> 00:32:55,405
Speaker 2: do here is to stay away from them. And I

623
00:32:55,405 --> 00:32:57,485
Speaker 2: think that's if you look at all the literature, and

624
00:32:57,525 --> 00:33:00,525
Speaker 2: there's also there was an amazing book written called Snakes

625
00:33:00,565 --> 00:33:03,205
Speaker 2: and Suits, which talks about psychopathy in the workplace. You

626
00:33:03,325 --> 00:33:05,765
Speaker 2: only find psychopaths and narcissistem in prisons. You also find

627
00:33:05,765 --> 00:33:08,445
Speaker 2: them in the boardroom. So there's different environments where we

628
00:33:08,445 --> 00:33:10,765
Speaker 2: can encounter narsis. But you know, I think one of

629
00:33:10,805 --> 00:33:14,325
Speaker 2: the guiding principles around dealing with narcissists is to try

630
00:33:14,325 --> 00:33:16,525
Speaker 2: to stay away from them. They can be very destructive.

631
00:33:16,965 --> 00:33:18,685
Speaker 2: If you try to go against them, they'll make it

632
00:33:18,725 --> 00:33:21,365
Speaker 2: their lives sometimes to go against you. So I mean

633
00:33:21,365 --> 00:33:23,485
Speaker 2: the key takeaway is stay away from them. I mean,

634
00:33:23,525 --> 00:33:25,205
Speaker 2: that's that's the best thing that you can do. Or

635
00:33:25,245 --> 00:33:28,285
Speaker 2: try to avoid them as much as possible, don't try

636
00:33:28,325 --> 00:33:30,205
Speaker 2: to engage with them. That you know, I think would

637
00:33:30,245 --> 00:33:33,445
Speaker 2: be the best advice, and I would even repeat in

638
00:33:33,485 --> 00:33:37,485
Speaker 2: that perspective. But identifying narcissists and psychopaths, I mean, again,

639
00:33:37,725 --> 00:33:40,485
Speaker 2: we can identify traits. What's very interesting is, you know,

640
00:33:40,525 --> 00:33:43,565
Speaker 2: bringing it back into the boardroom situation. They often say that,

641
00:33:43,645 --> 00:33:46,445
Speaker 2: you know, organizations tend to, you know, to have more

642
00:33:46,525 --> 00:33:49,925
Speaker 2: narcissists than the average population does. But some studies and

643
00:33:49,965 --> 00:33:52,325
Speaker 2: actually quote that in the book, you know about let's

644
00:33:52,325 --> 00:33:55,405
Speaker 2: say one to five percent of narcissists and psychopaths. You

645
00:33:55,445 --> 00:33:57,525
Speaker 2: can actually for social paths, you can actually find in

646
00:33:57,565 --> 00:34:00,245
Speaker 2: an organization. But up to I think one study that

647
00:34:00,285 --> 00:34:03,605
Speaker 2: I quoted was about twenty percent of some executives actually

648
00:34:03,605 --> 00:34:07,165
Speaker 2: have narcissistic traits. So in some way these kind of

649
00:34:07,245 --> 00:34:11,045
Speaker 2: narcissistic traits are being appreciate it especially when it comes

650
00:34:11,045 --> 00:34:13,925
Speaker 2: to business and profit and do we always need to

651
00:34:13,965 --> 00:34:16,325
Speaker 2: have empathy at work? Now? It seems also when we

652
00:34:16,365 --> 00:34:19,805
Speaker 2: look into leadership literature that the higher we get into positions,

653
00:34:19,805 --> 00:34:23,285
Speaker 2: the more power that we achieve, the less empathetic we become.

654
00:34:24,245 --> 00:34:28,285
Speaker 2: So again, is your boss a narcissist or is he

655
00:34:28,405 --> 00:34:32,365
Speaker 2: or she showing narcissistic traits such as less empathy towards

656
00:34:32,485 --> 00:34:35,245
Speaker 2: other people? Because you need to make bigger decisions, I

657
00:34:35,245 --> 00:34:37,685
Speaker 2: think that we need to be very careful about what

658
00:34:37,765 --> 00:34:42,405
Speaker 2: we label as a being narcissistic or psychopathic, But from

659
00:34:42,445 --> 00:34:45,085
Speaker 2: true narcissists I think we should stay away from.

660
00:34:45,165 --> 00:34:47,205
Speaker 3: But yeah, the whole study, all the studies that.

661
00:34:47,245 --> 00:34:51,125
Speaker 2: Talk about the impact of power on our emotions and

662
00:34:51,125 --> 00:34:55,085
Speaker 2: decision making and on our behavior is fascinating because to

663
00:34:55,125 --> 00:34:59,845
Speaker 2: some extent they resemble narcissistic traits and also psychopathic traits.

664
00:34:59,645 --> 00:35:04,645
Speaker 4: As well, because you imagine that it's just those types

665
00:35:04,685 --> 00:35:07,405
Speaker 4: of people go into those types of roles and then

666
00:35:07,405 --> 00:35:10,485
Speaker 4: they thrive in it because you it's easy to make

667
00:35:10,645 --> 00:35:14,645
Speaker 4: a decision about mass redundancies when you don't have amphithy

668
00:35:14,725 --> 00:35:17,565
Speaker 4: for the people you're making redundant. But it's interesting that

669
00:35:17,605 --> 00:35:19,725
Speaker 4: it can actually work the other way, that it's that

670
00:35:19,885 --> 00:35:22,965
Speaker 4: power that then changes how you see people.

671
00:35:23,845 --> 00:35:24,525
Speaker 2: And exactly.

672
00:35:24,725 --> 00:35:28,525
Speaker 4: You write a lot about workplace dynamics and our behavior

673
00:35:29,125 --> 00:35:33,605
Speaker 4: within it, and you talk about how it's particularly important

674
00:35:33,685 --> 00:35:39,125
Speaker 4: to put boundaries in place at work because issues can

675
00:35:39,165 --> 00:35:44,085
Speaker 4: arise when you become friends with your colleagues. And this

676
00:35:44,245 --> 00:35:48,285
Speaker 4: is something in an all female workplace where it's creative

677
00:35:48,365 --> 00:35:53,245
Speaker 4: and you're sharing personal stories. I have always ended up

678
00:35:53,285 --> 00:35:56,525
Speaker 4: being friends with the people I work with. Can you

679
00:35:57,325 --> 00:36:02,805
Speaker 4: explain how that can become an issue and how you're

680
00:36:02,845 --> 00:36:06,285
Speaker 4: meant to walk that line?

681
00:36:06,405 --> 00:36:09,125
Speaker 2: Oh, I just I recently got quoted in the CNN

682
00:36:09,765 --> 00:36:13,325
Speaker 2: about this, and they use the headline that I said

683
00:36:13,325 --> 00:36:16,165
Speaker 2: it was like, becoming friends at work is not the norm.

684
00:36:16,405 --> 00:36:18,805
Speaker 3: People are just there to make money, into care, to take.

685
00:36:18,685 --> 00:36:21,045
Speaker 2: Care for the success. And I stand behind that cot,

686
00:36:24,085 --> 00:36:26,165
Speaker 2: I stand behind that car, and I'll tell you right. Look,

687
00:36:26,845 --> 00:36:28,885
Speaker 2: of course, when you spend a lot of time with

688
00:36:28,925 --> 00:36:31,925
Speaker 2: your friends, with your colleagues, you become close with them,

689
00:36:31,925 --> 00:36:34,965
Speaker 2: and yes, you can become deat buddies and you can

690
00:36:35,005 --> 00:36:36,525
Speaker 2: become really really good friends.

691
00:36:36,565 --> 00:36:38,245
Speaker 3: It can happen, of course, it can happen.

692
00:36:38,405 --> 00:36:40,365
Speaker 2: But at the same time, you know when people and

693
00:36:40,405 --> 00:36:41,965
Speaker 2: this is why I kind of put out a bit

694
00:36:42,005 --> 00:36:45,205
Speaker 2: of a warning sign, is you know, people are in

695
00:36:45,245 --> 00:36:47,365
Speaker 2: the workplace to make money, they're there for their career,

696
00:36:47,405 --> 00:36:50,405
Speaker 2: they're there for their survival. And I would say the

697
00:36:50,485 --> 00:36:52,645
Speaker 2: majority of times people don't really show up with their

698
00:36:52,645 --> 00:36:55,805
Speaker 2: true face. We all go to work with our professional

699
00:36:55,805 --> 00:36:59,405
Speaker 2: identity on, with a professional mask, and so do we

700
00:36:59,485 --> 00:37:02,365
Speaker 2: really get to see the real person who's there. Maybe

701
00:37:02,365 --> 00:37:04,565
Speaker 2: the person can be so lovable and nice and shows

702
00:37:04,645 --> 00:37:06,885
Speaker 2: us that, but I don't always think that the person

703
00:37:07,005 --> 00:37:08,965
Speaker 2: has you know, will show up as the real person

704
00:37:09,125 --> 00:37:11,605
Speaker 2: workplace and you never know why they do that, right,

705
00:37:11,645 --> 00:37:13,645
Speaker 2: but we do know that they're there to make money

706
00:37:13,685 --> 00:37:18,685
Speaker 2: and career. Some people might misuse your trust in the

707
00:37:18,725 --> 00:37:21,885
Speaker 2: workplace to advance themselves or you know, in some occasions

708
00:37:21,925 --> 00:37:23,685
Speaker 2: also to make sure that you might get fired or

709
00:37:23,725 --> 00:37:26,205
Speaker 2: not get promoted so they can stay there in the

710
00:37:26,245 --> 00:37:30,285
Speaker 2: workplace or get that promotion that they feel that they deserve.

711
00:37:30,685 --> 00:37:33,645
Speaker 2: So I kind of want to say that it's when

712
00:37:33,645 --> 00:37:35,565
Speaker 2: we try to build friends in the workplace, we're not

713
00:37:35,605 --> 00:37:38,325
Speaker 2: building friends based on the social norm. We're also building

714
00:37:38,325 --> 00:37:41,005
Speaker 2: friends based on the market norm. And I think that's

715
00:37:41,045 --> 00:37:43,005
Speaker 2: something that we need to be more aware of and

716
00:37:43,125 --> 00:37:45,045
Speaker 2: the fact that a lot of us don't bring our

717
00:37:45,125 --> 00:37:47,725
Speaker 2: full true self to work, and I think that's where,

718
00:37:48,045 --> 00:37:49,845
Speaker 2: you know, we need to be a little bit more mindful.

719
00:37:50,045 --> 00:37:52,885
Speaker 2: Not saying that we definitely can't make friends at work,

720
00:37:53,125 --> 00:37:54,765
Speaker 2: but we just need to be a little bit more

721
00:37:54,805 --> 00:37:57,725
Speaker 2: mindful about you know, that people are not always showing

722
00:37:57,765 --> 00:37:59,925
Speaker 2: up as they are, so take your time, you know.

723
00:38:00,005 --> 00:38:01,445
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that you can't make friends.

724
00:38:01,565 --> 00:38:03,845
Speaker 2: Take your time, get to know your friends, get closer

725
00:38:03,885 --> 00:38:05,805
Speaker 2: to them, but always, you know, be a little bit

726
00:38:05,845 --> 00:38:07,645
Speaker 2: mindful about making friends in the workplace.

727
00:38:07,925 --> 00:38:12,085
Speaker 4: I think that's the that's a really interesting perspective that

728
00:38:12,125 --> 00:38:14,725
Speaker 4: because there are people that come to work and you

729
00:38:14,805 --> 00:38:18,565
Speaker 4: think they are very boundaried that it's like, Okay, you

730
00:38:18,645 --> 00:38:21,285
Speaker 4: come to work and your life outside of work is

731
00:38:21,325 --> 00:38:24,805
Speaker 4: your life. And I'm always kind of jealous of those

732
00:38:24,805 --> 00:38:28,125
Speaker 4: people because I'm terrible at it. But you're right, that

733
00:38:28,165 --> 00:38:32,365
Speaker 4: it can blur the social dynamics when there's power and

734
00:38:32,445 --> 00:38:41,205
Speaker 4: money and ambition involved, and yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. Another

735
00:38:42,125 --> 00:38:44,685
Speaker 4: example that you have for a red flag in a

736
00:38:44,725 --> 00:38:52,085
Speaker 4: workplace is a workplace not respecting your boundaries. And you

737
00:38:52,885 --> 00:38:57,605
Speaker 4: kind of talk about how people It goes both ways

738
00:38:57,685 --> 00:38:59,405
Speaker 4: that a workplace.

739
00:38:59,005 --> 00:39:01,565
Speaker 5: Can you know, ask can you work on Sunday? Can

740
00:39:01,605 --> 00:39:02,405
Speaker 5: you work on Sunday?

741
00:39:02,805 --> 00:39:05,125
Speaker 4: But when you actually break it down and get people

742
00:39:05,125 --> 00:39:08,365
Speaker 4: to reflect, you've got to ask you the one who's

743
00:39:09,405 --> 00:39:11,765
Speaker 4: actually struggling to set the boundaries yourself?

744
00:39:11,805 --> 00:39:12,765
Speaker 5: Are you saying yes?

745
00:39:13,685 --> 00:39:17,405
Speaker 4: And I'm definitely the kind of person who is a

746
00:39:17,445 --> 00:39:20,525
Speaker 4: people pleaser and perfectionistic, so I want to I'm like, yes, yes, yes,

747
00:39:20,565 --> 00:39:22,645
Speaker 4: I'll do all the things. And then you're sort of like,

748
00:39:22,685 --> 00:39:25,085
Speaker 4: hold on, I feel like my boundaries aren't being respected.

749
00:39:26,165 --> 00:39:27,005
Speaker 5: What kind of.

750
00:39:26,885 --> 00:39:31,005
Speaker 4: Things can we do to make sure that we're setting

751
00:39:31,125 --> 00:39:33,365
Speaker 4: up that dynamic where things are really clear?

752
00:39:34,365 --> 00:39:36,405
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that's also very hard thing to do.

753
00:39:36,445 --> 00:39:38,645
Speaker 2: I mean, you can have you can have policies in place,

754
00:39:38,685 --> 00:39:41,685
Speaker 2: and you can have good work practices in place, you know,

755
00:39:41,725 --> 00:39:45,685
Speaker 2: and some teams and some organizations do an amazing job

756
00:39:46,245 --> 00:39:48,685
Speaker 2: at that, Like they say look at five o'clock, you

757
00:39:48,725 --> 00:39:50,285
Speaker 2: go home, or you choose which do you want to

758
00:39:50,325 --> 00:39:52,285
Speaker 2: work from home? You balance things like yourself. But not

759
00:39:52,325 --> 00:39:54,725
Speaker 2: every organization can work that way. But I think the

760
00:39:54,805 --> 00:39:58,645
Speaker 2: key thing here is first of all, good work hygiene,

761
00:39:58,685 --> 00:40:01,645
Speaker 2: so understanding of having good practices in the first place

762
00:40:01,965 --> 00:40:05,245
Speaker 2: and policies, but also allowing flexibility in there. I think

763
00:40:05,285 --> 00:40:08,325
Speaker 2: that's so important because people, again it comes back to

764
00:40:08,365 --> 00:40:11,445
Speaker 2: that kind of law of reciprocity. If I give you

765
00:40:11,485 --> 00:40:14,325
Speaker 2: more flexibility, you probably will give me more of your

766
00:40:14,365 --> 00:40:16,885
Speaker 2: time in return. But when you can do that and

767
00:40:16,925 --> 00:40:19,605
Speaker 2: when you cont that, so I almost say that to

768
00:40:19,685 --> 00:40:22,445
Speaker 2: work with boundaries, sometimes it's also good to give people

769
00:40:22,525 --> 00:40:25,245
Speaker 2: the flexibility to make their own decisions and then people

770
00:40:25,325 --> 00:40:27,685
Speaker 2: might go a little bit more for you without feeling

771
00:40:27,805 --> 00:40:29,805
Speaker 2: that they're actually overstepping their own boundaries.

772
00:40:30,165 --> 00:40:33,525
Speaker 4: Yeah, and perhaps that's one of the reasons it feels

773
00:40:33,565 --> 00:40:37,565
Speaker 4: like the workplace has changed a little bit in recent

774
00:40:37,645 --> 00:40:40,325
Speaker 4: years and people are getting a little bit more you know,

775
00:40:40,365 --> 00:40:43,085
Speaker 4: the whole quiet quitting trend, and people are getting a

776
00:40:43,125 --> 00:40:47,485
Speaker 4: lot more strict about what they believe a workplace is

777
00:40:47,605 --> 00:40:49,165
Speaker 4: entitled to ask from them.

778
00:40:49,245 --> 00:40:53,445
Speaker 5: Because I think at least that during.

779
00:40:53,245 --> 00:40:59,245
Speaker 4: COVID, the workforce did a lot to help businesses in

780
00:40:59,285 --> 00:41:01,765
Speaker 4: that you know, all of us were like, Okay, we'll

781
00:41:01,845 --> 00:41:04,805
Speaker 4: change our lives to work from home, and we will.

782
00:41:05,005 --> 00:41:07,245
Speaker 4: You know, some of us had to move into a

783
00:41:07,285 --> 00:41:10,085
Speaker 4: different kind of place where we had an off where

784
00:41:10,125 --> 00:41:12,045
Speaker 4: we could work from home, which was not something we

785
00:41:12,045 --> 00:41:14,245
Speaker 4: had ever had to do before. And so it's sort

786
00:41:14,285 --> 00:41:17,885
Speaker 4: of like, you know, the workforce felt like they had adapted,

787
00:41:18,125 --> 00:41:21,725
Speaker 4: and then you look at your workplace and say, okay, well.

788
00:41:21,805 --> 00:41:23,605
Speaker 5: What are you going to do for me now?

789
00:41:24,165 --> 00:41:28,125
Speaker 4: And I think gen z who have come in sort

790
00:41:28,165 --> 00:41:33,445
Speaker 4: of post that work change are then having a very

791
00:41:33,445 --> 00:41:35,045
Speaker 4: different experience and.

792
00:41:36,685 --> 00:41:39,725
Speaker 5: Very confused about what work was like before.

793
00:41:40,605 --> 00:41:42,925
Speaker 4: And not not kind of expecting it to be a

794
00:41:42,965 --> 00:41:45,285
Speaker 4: Monday to Friday nine to five situation.

795
00:41:46,565 --> 00:41:48,325
Speaker 3: Well, look, I think there's a lot to be said

796
00:41:48,365 --> 00:41:50,845
Speaker 3: about that. And you know, during the I think the.

797
00:41:50,805 --> 00:41:53,205
Speaker 2: Pandemic when we you know, this term came up called

798
00:41:53,205 --> 00:41:56,525
Speaker 2: the Great Resignation, and you know, people are like disgrundled

799
00:41:56,565 --> 00:41:58,925
Speaker 2: with having to work so much and dealing with the

800
00:41:58,965 --> 00:42:01,805
Speaker 2: enserrtainty of COVID nineteen at the time.

801
00:42:01,925 --> 00:42:03,565
Speaker 3: But one of the reasons why.

802
00:42:03,405 --> 00:42:06,205
Speaker 2: A lot of people actually left at the organization is

803
00:42:06,245 --> 00:42:10,125
Speaker 2: because that disgruntleman already existed prior to the pandemic. So

804
00:42:10,245 --> 00:42:12,485
Speaker 2: you know, people were very already very.

805
00:42:12,565 --> 00:42:14,245
Speaker 3: You know, not that engaged. If you look at the

806
00:42:14,245 --> 00:42:16,085
Speaker 3: Gallop surveys.

807
00:42:15,565 --> 00:42:19,205
Speaker 2: That came out, you know, completely disengaged, you know, highly

808
00:42:19,285 --> 00:42:22,365
Speaker 2: disengaged or disengaged. In total, it was the majority of

809
00:42:22,405 --> 00:42:25,565
Speaker 2: the workforce. And so people already very unhappy with this

810
00:42:25,725 --> 00:42:27,725
Speaker 2: kind of hustling, like you had to work so many

811
00:42:27,725 --> 00:42:30,525
Speaker 2: hours and you know, go over time, and you know,

812
00:42:30,565 --> 00:42:33,805
Speaker 2: I think what COVID did is made people more reflective,

813
00:42:34,125 --> 00:42:37,045
Speaker 2: made more made them more mindful of what's really important

814
00:42:37,045 --> 00:42:38,565
Speaker 2: to me. I have a virus out there that is

815
00:42:38,605 --> 00:42:41,525
Speaker 2: going to potentially kill me, and you're asking me to

816
00:42:41,565 --> 00:42:43,685
Speaker 2: work twelve hours a day sitting in my home.

817
00:42:44,085 --> 00:42:44,565
Speaker 3: No, thank you.

818
00:42:44,605 --> 00:42:46,125
Speaker 2: I'm going to take care of a parent or a

819
00:42:46,245 --> 00:42:50,405
Speaker 2: cat or whatever. So people changed their priorities. And why

820
00:42:50,485 --> 00:42:53,125
Speaker 2: a lot of people, not only did the workforce laid

821
00:42:53,125 --> 00:42:54,725
Speaker 2: off a lot of people, why a lot of people

822
00:42:54,765 --> 00:42:57,805
Speaker 2: decided just to quit, is because they were already very

823
00:42:57,885 --> 00:43:00,765
Speaker 2: unhappy with how things were going. And I think this

824
00:43:00,925 --> 00:43:04,245
Speaker 2: changed the dynamic right in terms of the relationship and

825
00:43:04,245 --> 00:43:08,325
Speaker 2: the power between the employer and the employee. Now you

826
00:43:08,325 --> 00:43:10,645
Speaker 2: said something interesting about gen Z because of course now

827
00:43:10,765 --> 00:43:12,005
Speaker 2: you know, I talk about it in the book. You know,

828
00:43:12,125 --> 00:43:16,165
Speaker 2: quiet quitting has become a new phenomena quiet holiday, and

829
00:43:16,205 --> 00:43:17,885
Speaker 2: I didn't mention that in the book. But that's also

830
00:43:17,885 --> 00:43:19,645
Speaker 2: a big thing where a lot of people are just

831
00:43:19,725 --> 00:43:21,965
Speaker 2: kind of, oh, you told me I can work remotely

832
00:43:22,165 --> 00:43:24,925
Speaker 2: and then their own you know, the Bahamas and wait

833
00:43:24,965 --> 00:43:26,365
Speaker 2: a minute, so you're.

834
00:43:26,005 --> 00:43:26,845
Speaker 3: Supposed to be working.

835
00:43:26,845 --> 00:43:28,165
Speaker 2: I am working, but where are you.

836
00:43:28,245 --> 00:43:30,165
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm in the Bahamas right now. So that

837
00:43:30,245 --> 00:43:31,445
Speaker 3: also has become a thing.

838
00:43:31,565 --> 00:43:34,645
Speaker 2: And I think that the gen Z generation just from

839
00:43:34,685 --> 00:43:39,525
Speaker 2: their mindset is their parents were the Millennials maybe gen xers,

840
00:43:39,605 --> 00:43:42,645
Speaker 2: and they saw their parents work so extremely hard, they

841
00:43:42,685 --> 00:43:44,125
Speaker 2: often didn't see their parents at home.

842
00:43:44,685 --> 00:43:47,485
Speaker 3: And they have grown up now in a world where

843
00:43:47,765 --> 00:43:48,125
Speaker 3: you know.

844
00:43:48,165 --> 00:43:50,405
Speaker 2: There is there is no certainty for them in many

845
00:43:50,405 --> 00:43:55,805
Speaker 2: different ways, financially, work wise, relationship wise. So why should

846
00:43:55,845 --> 00:43:58,805
Speaker 2: I give my ole when I'm not getting anything in return.

847
00:43:58,925 --> 00:44:04,965
Speaker 2: So they're prioritizing mental health, they're prioritizing their personal lives,

848
00:44:05,125 --> 00:44:06,485
Speaker 2: you know, as much as possible.

849
00:44:06,525 --> 00:44:08,765
Speaker 3: And you know, many people don't want to have the

850
00:44:08,845 --> 00:44:09,645
Speaker 3: nine to five job.

851
00:44:09,725 --> 00:44:11,525
Speaker 2: They see that a nine to five job can't even

852
00:44:11,565 --> 00:44:13,845
Speaker 2: pay the bills nowadays. So a lot of younger people

853
00:44:13,885 --> 00:44:16,405
Speaker 2: nowadays want to become actors, They want to become influencers.

854
00:44:16,645 --> 00:44:19,645
Speaker 2: So they do the job because it potentially might get

855
00:44:19,645 --> 00:44:21,565
Speaker 2: them to do them something else in the future. They

856
00:44:21,565 --> 00:44:24,445
Speaker 2: don't feel that connection and commitment to the organization, but

857
00:44:24,485 --> 00:44:27,725
Speaker 2: at the same time, they do expect you know that

858
00:44:27,725 --> 00:44:30,205
Speaker 2: that you know that they're treated well and that they're

859
00:44:30,245 --> 00:44:32,485
Speaker 2: not overwork. They have a good manager, there's you know,

860
00:44:32,725 --> 00:44:35,725
Speaker 2: there's diversity and inclusion policies in place that you know,

861
00:44:35,765 --> 00:44:38,165
Speaker 2: help them feel that they can bring their whole sales

862
00:44:38,205 --> 00:44:38,485
Speaker 2: to work.

863
00:44:38,485 --> 00:44:39,845
Speaker 3: Otherwise they're going to work for you.

864
00:44:39,925 --> 00:44:44,125
Speaker 2: And I think that that dynamic has forced organizations to

865
00:44:44,285 --> 00:44:48,245
Speaker 2: rethink their strategy when working with employees, especially in a

866
00:44:48,285 --> 00:44:49,245
Speaker 2: post pandemic era.

867
00:44:53,605 --> 00:44:57,045
Speaker 4: When we return, doctor Fenwick and I dive into dating.

868
00:44:57,805 --> 00:45:00,405
Speaker 4: Did you know that most ghosting happens on the third

869
00:45:00,525 --> 00:45:07,765
Speaker 4: date because I didn't stay with us. I want to

870
00:45:07,805 --> 00:45:11,805
Speaker 4: briefly touch on dating because, as you said at the beginning,

871
00:45:11,885 --> 00:45:14,245
Speaker 4: that is where a lot of this red flag stuff

872
00:45:14,565 --> 00:45:20,085
Speaker 4: started from. And you talk about some of the dating

873
00:45:20,125 --> 00:45:24,205
Speaker 4: red flags, and then apply that same process, and I

874
00:45:24,245 --> 00:45:26,845
Speaker 4: wanted to talk about some of the parts of dating

875
00:45:26,845 --> 00:45:31,125
Speaker 4: that are particularly contentious and how you can make a

876
00:45:31,205 --> 00:45:33,685
Speaker 4: decision about whether or not that particular thing is a

877
00:45:33,685 --> 00:45:37,685
Speaker 4: red flag for you. One thing I've heard from a

878
00:45:37,725 --> 00:45:40,805
Speaker 4: lot of men, and I've never asked anyone about this,

879
00:45:40,885 --> 00:45:42,365
Speaker 4: but I've heard from a lot of men, and you

880
00:45:42,405 --> 00:45:46,565
Speaker 4: write about it in the book when you're seeing someone

881
00:45:46,725 --> 00:45:50,365
Speaker 4: and you can't make a decision about it because you're

882
00:45:50,405 --> 00:45:56,845
Speaker 4: not feeling anything. And I'd never seen this acknowledged and

883
00:45:56,885 --> 00:45:58,605
Speaker 4: I'd never seen it normalized.

884
00:46:00,005 --> 00:46:01,405
Speaker 5: Can you talk me through?

885
00:46:02,165 --> 00:46:07,725
Speaker 4: So, if you're seeing someone and you feel nothing, how

886
00:46:07,765 --> 00:46:10,205
Speaker 4: do you decide whether or not that is a red

887
00:46:10,205 --> 00:46:11,485
Speaker 4: flag or whether that's okay?

888
00:46:12,045 --> 00:46:12,845
Speaker 2: Wonderful question.

889
00:46:13,725 --> 00:46:16,525
Speaker 3: Let me give you a bit of some context to

890
00:46:16,565 --> 00:46:16,965
Speaker 3: this point.

891
00:46:16,965 --> 00:46:19,085
Speaker 2: That why I mentioned it in the book. So I'm

892
00:46:19,085 --> 00:46:22,845
Speaker 2: a very data driven person, and the twenty four chapters

893
00:46:22,845 --> 00:46:25,925
Speaker 2: that I wrote are based on my most viral content

894
00:46:26,125 --> 00:46:29,085
Speaker 2: that went viral on all my platforms, meaning that these

895
00:46:29,125 --> 00:46:33,925
Speaker 2: were truly topics that people I'm most concerned about. One

896
00:46:33,965 --> 00:46:38,045
Speaker 2: of them was I don't feel anything anymore right? Oh

897
00:46:38,085 --> 00:46:40,285
Speaker 2: I like you, my mind says I like you, But

898
00:46:40,325 --> 00:46:42,845
Speaker 2: my heart says nothing, you know, is there something wrong

899
00:46:42,885 --> 00:46:45,845
Speaker 2: with me? And so I broke that down not feeling

900
00:46:45,885 --> 00:46:48,925
Speaker 2: anything into potential red flags and green flags and why

901
00:46:49,005 --> 00:46:53,325
Speaker 2: can happen, you know, from reasons of mental health issues

902
00:46:53,365 --> 00:46:56,125
Speaker 2: all the way to what people don't realize, for example,

903
00:46:56,205 --> 00:46:59,365
Speaker 2: is over usage of social media and on mobile phones,

904
00:46:59,845 --> 00:47:03,925
Speaker 2: and you know how basically that overstimulation of dopamine can

905
00:47:04,045 --> 00:47:07,325
Speaker 2: lead to us not feeling as much as normal, And

906
00:47:07,365 --> 00:47:09,525
Speaker 2: so people don't realize that, And so I break down

907
00:47:09,565 --> 00:47:11,605
Speaker 2: in that chapter, why is it that a lot of

908
00:47:11,685 --> 00:47:14,725
Speaker 2: us are not feeling anything? Sometimes it's just temporary and

909
00:47:14,805 --> 00:47:16,965
Speaker 2: we deal with it and it passes by. Just think

910
00:47:16,965 --> 00:47:19,805
Speaker 2: of a stressful moment, death in the family. You know,

911
00:47:19,885 --> 00:47:22,605
Speaker 2: it's just kind of like a coping strategy. Sometimes it

912
00:47:22,605 --> 00:47:24,885
Speaker 2: could be something more serious, and then that's something that

913
00:47:24,925 --> 00:47:27,565
Speaker 2: you need to kind of further investigate with a medical

914
00:47:27,605 --> 00:47:30,005
Speaker 2: professional and see if there's anything wrong there. But it

915
00:47:30,045 --> 00:47:32,965
Speaker 2: could also just be for example, because we're just feeling

916
00:47:33,005 --> 00:47:36,085
Speaker 2: so overwhelmed and you know, at the same time, you know,

917
00:47:36,125 --> 00:47:38,925
Speaker 2: we're just using also we're using our mobile phones too much,

918
00:47:39,205 --> 00:47:41,325
Speaker 2: and there's and I provide some insights from studies there

919
00:47:41,365 --> 00:47:43,925
Speaker 2: also that you know over mobile phone usage and social

920
00:47:44,005 --> 00:47:47,005
Speaker 2: media over usage actually can lead us to feeling much

921
00:47:47,045 --> 00:47:49,965
Speaker 2: more less and feeling much more numb. So I wanted

922
00:47:50,005 --> 00:47:53,765
Speaker 2: to in that chapter to explain when is feeling nothing

923
00:47:53,805 --> 00:47:56,965
Speaker 2: a potential green flag and when is it a red flag,

924
00:47:57,005 --> 00:48:00,285
Speaker 2: so that people can become more mindful, because on social media,

925
00:48:00,765 --> 00:48:03,085
Speaker 2: the response is when I came out with because I

926
00:48:03,085 --> 00:48:04,845
Speaker 2: made a video on that on that topic, it was like,

927
00:48:05,165 --> 00:48:07,845
Speaker 2: you're so right, why am I not feeling anything? It's

928
00:48:07,885 --> 00:48:10,885
Speaker 2: like I've become completely numb and why is that? And

929
00:48:10,885 --> 00:48:12,965
Speaker 2: that's why I wanted to provide some perspectives there and

930
00:48:13,005 --> 00:48:14,845
Speaker 2: also what we can do about it and how we

931
00:48:14,885 --> 00:48:15,845
Speaker 2: can start feeling again.

932
00:48:16,245 --> 00:48:20,845
Speaker 4: And so say you are dating someone and you objectively

933
00:48:20,845 --> 00:48:23,965
Speaker 4: you're looking at them and you think I find them attractive,

934
00:48:24,325 --> 00:48:28,245
Speaker 4: I find them interesting, I enjoy our time together, but

935
00:48:28,485 --> 00:48:33,165
Speaker 4: I'm not feeling anything. How do you overcome that? And

936
00:48:33,205 --> 00:48:36,685
Speaker 4: how do you make a decision when there's not that

937
00:48:36,765 --> 00:48:38,045
Speaker 4: gut instinct.

938
00:48:39,525 --> 00:48:42,725
Speaker 2: That's well, I mean again, the reason why you're not

939
00:48:42,765 --> 00:48:45,245
Speaker 2: feeling anything in the first place, It could be multiple

940
00:48:45,285 --> 00:48:47,125
Speaker 2: reasons there, right, So that needs to be that needs

941
00:48:47,165 --> 00:48:50,845
Speaker 2: to be thoroughly investigated, which sometimes requires also a medical

942
00:48:50,845 --> 00:48:53,045
Speaker 2: professional to see as well, because if you don't feel

943
00:48:53,045 --> 00:48:55,085
Speaker 2: anything at all, it could be an indicator that something

944
00:48:55,125 --> 00:48:55,965
Speaker 2: else is happening with you.

945
00:48:56,605 --> 00:48:57,205
Speaker 3: If it's just.

946
00:48:57,085 --> 00:49:00,045
Speaker 2: Because of how you're living right now, you're just kind

947
00:49:00,045 --> 00:49:02,405
Speaker 2: of living your day day by day, you're going into

948
00:49:02,405 --> 00:49:04,325
Speaker 2: the motus of things, and you don't really spend a

949
00:49:04,365 --> 00:49:05,965
Speaker 2: lot of time of going very because I think that's

950
00:49:06,005 --> 00:49:08,205
Speaker 2: one of the big problems nowadays, is that we're not

951
00:49:08,205 --> 00:49:11,925
Speaker 2: building deep enough connect right We're not really getting to

952
00:49:11,965 --> 00:49:12,725
Speaker 2: know the other person.

953
00:49:12,725 --> 00:49:14,765
Speaker 3: If we're very quickly deciding.

954
00:49:14,365 --> 00:49:15,805
Speaker 2: That, you know, we don't want to you know, I

955
00:49:15,805 --> 00:49:17,125
Speaker 2: don't want to be with you because I see this

956
00:49:17,205 --> 00:49:19,205
Speaker 2: first red flag where you know, I just like to

957
00:49:19,245 --> 00:49:21,645
Speaker 2: keep it very superficial and let's just keep it sexual.

958
00:49:21,925 --> 00:49:24,085
Speaker 2: You're not really getting to know the person at a

959
00:49:24,325 --> 00:49:26,565
Speaker 2: more emotional level. And I think that is also another

960
00:49:26,605 --> 00:49:28,845
Speaker 2: reason why we might not be feeding things.

961
00:49:28,885 --> 00:49:30,765
Speaker 3: Because we're it's a quick forable.

962
00:49:30,885 --> 00:49:34,445
Speaker 2: We're happy with the exchange that physical and intimacy exchange,

963
00:49:34,725 --> 00:49:37,125
Speaker 2: but we're not looking for something much more deeper because

964
00:49:37,245 --> 00:49:39,725
Speaker 2: our lives are busier. We have our friends, you know,

965
00:49:39,765 --> 00:49:41,325
Speaker 2: that we want to invest in, and we.

966
00:49:41,285 --> 00:49:42,885
Speaker 3: Don't want drama. I think a lot of people are

967
00:49:42,925 --> 00:49:43,525
Speaker 3: now saying.

968
00:49:43,285 --> 00:49:45,165
Speaker 2: To themselves, I don't want drama, so I don't want

969
00:49:45,165 --> 00:49:48,205
Speaker 2: to deal with relationships. But again, that mental muscle comes

970
00:49:48,245 --> 00:49:51,405
Speaker 2: to play the moment we just keep things superficial, less

971
00:49:51,485 --> 00:49:53,765
Speaker 2: likely we are to build a more deeper emotional connection.

972
00:49:54,125 --> 00:49:56,925
Speaker 2: So coming back to your answer from that perspective, I

973
00:49:56,965 --> 00:49:59,325
Speaker 2: would say, spend time.

974
00:49:59,165 --> 00:50:00,685
Speaker 3: To get to know the person that you're dealing with.

975
00:50:00,845 --> 00:50:06,805
Speaker 2: Understand your compatibility beyond the physical compatibility, look for spiritual compatibility,

976
00:50:07,005 --> 00:50:11,165
Speaker 2: look for emotional compatibility, value compatibility physical, well, not physical

977
00:50:11,165 --> 00:50:14,325
Speaker 2: I already mentioned, but look at other kinds of compatibility

978
00:50:14,365 --> 00:50:15,925
Speaker 2: with another person so that you can get to know

979
00:50:15,965 --> 00:50:16,365
Speaker 2: each other.

980
00:50:16,685 --> 00:50:19,445
Speaker 4: Do you think the other part of it is, because

981
00:50:19,445 --> 00:50:23,765
Speaker 4: I've heard you talk about this that with dating now,

982
00:50:25,005 --> 00:50:30,445
Speaker 4: we feel like we constantly have infinite options. So when

983
00:50:30,485 --> 00:50:34,005
Speaker 4: we are seeing someone in the back of our mind,

984
00:50:34,045 --> 00:50:37,445
Speaker 4: we're also thinking, yeah, but there's also a million other

985
00:50:37,445 --> 00:50:39,245
Speaker 4: people in my phone, Like, do you think we're not

986
00:50:39,365 --> 00:50:43,005
Speaker 4: kind of getting that depth because we're a little bit distracted.

987
00:50:43,845 --> 00:50:45,645
Speaker 2: You hit the nail on the head. I think one

988
00:50:45,685 --> 00:50:48,405
Speaker 2: of the reasons why people are finding it hard to

989
00:50:49,085 --> 00:50:51,885
Speaker 2: find someone they can be with for a longer period

990
00:50:51,885 --> 00:50:55,325
Speaker 2: of time. Is dating apps have created this illusion and

991
00:50:55,365 --> 00:50:57,725
Speaker 2: I emphasize the word of loosing here because it is

992
00:50:57,725 --> 00:51:00,605
Speaker 2: an illusion that there's so many other options out there,

993
00:51:00,645 --> 00:51:03,325
Speaker 2: like there's a limited less amount of people that we

994
00:51:03,365 --> 00:51:06,205
Speaker 2: can connect with and date with, and so when something

995
00:51:06,205 --> 00:51:08,645
Speaker 2: doesn't go right with a person that we're dating at

996
00:51:08,685 --> 00:51:10,125
Speaker 2: the moment, we just get you know, we get rid

997
00:51:10,165 --> 00:51:10,405
Speaker 2: of them.

998
00:51:10,405 --> 00:51:11,045
Speaker 3: We don't like them.

999
00:51:11,085 --> 00:51:13,125
Speaker 2: Oh it's too much drama, so I'll just move on

1000
00:51:13,165 --> 00:51:15,885
Speaker 2: to somebody else. I think that's one of the major

1001
00:51:15,925 --> 00:51:19,245
Speaker 2: reasons why people are finding it much more harder.

1002
00:51:19,005 --> 00:51:20,365
Speaker 3: To date in today's world.

1003
00:51:20,605 --> 00:51:24,365
Speaker 2: Then again, they're losing their ability to strengthen their social

1004
00:51:24,445 --> 00:51:26,845
Speaker 2: muscle or their mental ability to kind of deal with

1005
00:51:26,925 --> 00:51:30,325
Speaker 2: challenging situations, which then becomes kind of like a vicious

1006
00:51:30,365 --> 00:51:33,125
Speaker 2: circle to the extent that eventually you get so used

1007
00:51:33,125 --> 00:51:37,285
Speaker 2: to switching partners that eventually you I mean, I won't

1008
00:51:37,285 --> 00:51:40,165
Speaker 2: say it becomes impossible, because it's much more harder to

1009
00:51:40,165 --> 00:51:43,525
Speaker 2: build more sustainable relationship with every every relationship, you know,

1010
00:51:43,645 --> 00:51:46,285
Speaker 2: every long term relationship is going to deal with some

1011
00:51:46,325 --> 00:51:48,565
Speaker 2: form of drama, right, and some a little bit more

1012
00:51:48,605 --> 00:51:51,965
Speaker 2: than others, and especially love relationships because when we are

1013
00:51:52,005 --> 00:51:55,845
Speaker 2: emotionally connected romantically connected to people, you know, parts of

1014
00:51:55,885 --> 00:51:59,525
Speaker 2: our past and attachment styles of course immerse and and

1015
00:51:59,845 --> 00:52:02,605
Speaker 2: you know, I often like to say that when we

1016
00:52:02,765 --> 00:52:04,965
Speaker 2: fall in love, we should also be mindful of not

1017
00:52:05,005 --> 00:52:07,965
Speaker 2: to falling in love with the good things about people,

1018
00:52:07,965 --> 00:52:10,165
Speaker 2: but we also need to fall in love with people's

1019
00:52:10,205 --> 00:52:14,085
Speaker 2: developmental spaces as well. You know, We're part of being

1020
00:52:14,085 --> 00:52:17,045
Speaker 2: in a long term relationship is also helping each other

1021
00:52:17,125 --> 00:52:20,525
Speaker 2: to heal in that perspective, to build trust and to

1022
00:52:20,645 --> 00:52:22,125
Speaker 2: learn again. And I think a lot of us in

1023
00:52:22,125 --> 00:52:26,005
Speaker 2: today's world are probably because we're just there for the transaction.

1024
00:52:26,365 --> 00:52:28,925
Speaker 2: We're so much more focused on the pleasure and not

1025
00:52:29,045 --> 00:52:31,645
Speaker 2: on the complete you know, the completeness of being with

1026
00:52:31,725 --> 00:52:34,645
Speaker 2: somebody else. And then when that comes out, you know,

1027
00:52:34,725 --> 00:52:37,245
Speaker 2: and it eventually does in every relationship that comes out

1028
00:52:37,485 --> 00:52:40,325
Speaker 2: to some extent, you know, then people get afraid and

1029
00:52:40,325 --> 00:52:42,525
Speaker 2: they don't know what to do, and then again that

1030
00:52:42,565 --> 00:52:45,165
Speaker 2: pushes them away as well. So this is why I

1031
00:52:45,165 --> 00:52:47,965
Speaker 2: wrote the book. I can see this from a behavioral

1032
00:52:47,965 --> 00:52:51,885
Speaker 2: perspective happening. I think it's it's a scary development, But

1033
00:52:52,005 --> 00:52:54,405
Speaker 2: I do think we have the skills and capabilities inside

1034
00:52:54,405 --> 00:52:56,685
Speaker 2: of us to go against it and to do something

1035
00:52:56,965 --> 00:52:57,405
Speaker 2: about it.

1036
00:52:57,445 --> 00:52:58,885
Speaker 3: So that's why I really.

1037
00:52:58,605 --> 00:53:00,805
Speaker 2: Want people to become more mindful of their interaction with

1038
00:53:00,805 --> 00:53:03,485
Speaker 2: people and make the most understand that, Yeah, you know,

1039
00:53:03,645 --> 00:53:06,365
Speaker 2: challenge is part of our lives, and you know, we

1040
00:53:06,445 --> 00:53:08,685
Speaker 2: need to if we want to form strong relationships, we

1041
00:53:08,725 --> 00:53:10,445
Speaker 2: need to do a little bit more than just bouncing

1042
00:53:10,445 --> 00:53:15,045
Speaker 2: from one person to another. But technology, unfortunately today gives

1043
00:53:15,085 --> 00:53:18,685
Speaker 2: us the feeling that we can replace people easily. But

1044
00:53:18,725 --> 00:53:20,365
Speaker 2: the other thing that I also mentioned in the book

1045
00:53:20,405 --> 00:53:23,085
Speaker 2: is how technology has been designed and how that also

1046
00:53:23,325 --> 00:53:26,485
Speaker 2: makes us more willing to mistreat people. And that's even

1047
00:53:26,925 --> 00:53:27,645
Speaker 2: more concerning.

1048
00:53:28,445 --> 00:53:32,805
Speaker 4: I loved hearing about that in the context of dating,

1049
00:53:33,165 --> 00:53:36,045
Speaker 4: because I think we hear it a lot about social

1050
00:53:36,085 --> 00:53:38,805
Speaker 4: media and the fact that we kind of dehumanize people.

1051
00:53:39,325 --> 00:53:42,205
Speaker 4: But it's so true that on an app, I mean,

1052
00:53:42,285 --> 00:53:46,005
Speaker 4: even the idea of ghosting someone is quite dehumanizing. You're

1053
00:53:46,045 --> 00:53:48,805
Speaker 4: no longer really seeing them as a person with feelings,

1054
00:53:48,885 --> 00:53:51,245
Speaker 4: and like you're seeing them as a text message that

1055
00:53:52,685 --> 00:53:55,645
Speaker 4: yeah yeah, yeah, and just just as an option rather

1056
00:53:55,645 --> 00:53:59,405
Speaker 4: than a fully fledged human being. And I think that

1057
00:53:59,405 --> 00:54:02,245
Speaker 4: that's such a such an interesting thing to look at

1058
00:54:03,005 --> 00:54:05,605
Speaker 4: The last thing I want to ask you about is

1059
00:54:05,645 --> 00:54:09,005
Speaker 4: something that has come up a lot in recent years,

1060
00:54:09,005 --> 00:54:14,005
Speaker 4: which is ethical non monogamy. And we've heard more and

1061
00:54:14,085 --> 00:54:18,885
Speaker 4: more about open relationships. And I really liked the breakdown

1062
00:54:18,925 --> 00:54:23,325
Speaker 4: of this because there are some context where somebody asking

1063
00:54:23,445 --> 00:54:26,245
Speaker 4: to open up a relationship could be a red flag

1064
00:54:26,285 --> 00:54:27,805
Speaker 4: and there are some times when it could be a

1065
00:54:27,805 --> 00:54:32,365
Speaker 4: grain flag. Could you break down what someone should consider

1066
00:54:32,885 --> 00:54:35,165
Speaker 4: when they're thinking about opening up a relationship.

1067
00:54:35,765 --> 00:54:40,205
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, the open relationships has become is increasing, right,

1068
00:54:40,245 --> 00:54:41,885
Speaker 2: the amount of people that want to be in an

1069
00:54:41,885 --> 00:54:44,685
Speaker 2: open relationship for multiple reasons. And again I think also

1070
00:54:44,725 --> 00:54:46,845
Speaker 2: because we believe that there's so many people out there

1071
00:54:46,885 --> 00:54:49,725
Speaker 2: and you know, try before you die. Let's say, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1072
00:54:49,725 --> 00:54:53,285
Speaker 2: this kind of this mindset that is emerging. And so

1073
00:54:53,525 --> 00:54:56,165
Speaker 2: even people that have been in long term relationships nowadays

1074
00:54:56,165 --> 00:54:59,045
Speaker 2: are saying, you know, you know, they're proposing either to

1075
00:54:59,085 --> 00:55:01,565
Speaker 2: open up the relationship and sometimes even deciding if that's

1076
00:55:01,565 --> 00:55:03,005
Speaker 2: not going to happen, just to kind of break up

1077
00:55:03,005 --> 00:55:04,565
Speaker 2: and move away. And I think a lot of people

1078
00:55:04,965 --> 00:55:07,325
Speaker 2: that receive that question, that's why I wrote that chapter.

1079
00:55:07,965 --> 00:55:11,525
Speaker 2: Is that what you you do when your partner asks

1080
00:55:11,565 --> 00:55:14,485
Speaker 2: you should we open up the relationship? And this is

1081
00:55:14,565 --> 00:55:18,445
Speaker 2: again a very personal question. I address the phenomena of

1082
00:55:18,645 --> 00:55:21,045
Speaker 2: why people are opening up with more their relationships and

1083
00:55:21,245 --> 00:55:23,805
Speaker 2: and what you can do about it, like, for example,

1084
00:55:24,805 --> 00:55:27,125
Speaker 2: if you're if you're not okay with it, then just

1085
00:55:27,165 --> 00:55:28,925
Speaker 2: say no, right then, I don't want this.

1086
00:55:28,965 --> 00:55:32,365
Speaker 3: It doesn't fit with my values. This is not something

1087
00:55:32,405 --> 00:55:33,405
Speaker 3: that I'd want.

1088
00:55:33,565 --> 00:55:36,525
Speaker 2: And are you okay? Are you? Do you stand behind

1089
00:55:37,085 --> 00:55:39,925
Speaker 2: your decisions and also understanding that that might end your

1090
00:55:40,005 --> 00:55:43,645
Speaker 2: long term partnership or your relationship. But again I also

1091
00:55:43,685 --> 00:55:46,805
Speaker 2: put in you know, suggestions and talking about how you

1092
00:55:46,845 --> 00:55:49,965
Speaker 2: can consider maybe having an open relationship. Now I'm not

1093
00:55:49,965 --> 00:55:51,965
Speaker 2: promoting it, but I'm saying how you can consider it,

1094
00:55:52,405 --> 00:55:54,645
Speaker 2: and and saying, well, look, you know, I never thought

1095
00:55:54,645 --> 00:55:58,005
Speaker 2: about that. I am, I really care about my relationship.

1096
00:55:58,245 --> 00:55:59,925
Speaker 2: One thing we also need to be mindful of is

1097
00:56:00,045 --> 00:56:02,725
Speaker 2: every long term relationship, you know, people's needs evolve and

1098
00:56:02,845 --> 00:56:06,165
Speaker 2: change happens to everybody, and sometimes that comes also to

1099
00:56:06,205 --> 00:56:09,245
Speaker 2: the to the intimacy level as well. And so I

1100
00:56:09,325 --> 00:56:11,805
Speaker 2: I think it's really good that a partner can voice

1101
00:56:12,205 --> 00:56:14,725
Speaker 2: their evolving needs to the other partner instead of cheating,

1102
00:56:14,765 --> 00:56:16,885
Speaker 2: because to you is the worst thing that you can do.

1103
00:56:16,965 --> 00:56:18,885
Speaker 3: So voice your.

1104
00:56:18,805 --> 00:56:22,165
Speaker 2: Interest in your desires and discuss that with your partner

1105
00:56:22,245 --> 00:56:26,565
Speaker 2: in the most respectful and mindful way possible. If your

1106
00:56:26,645 --> 00:56:29,445
Speaker 2: partner is open to that, then at least you know,

1107
00:56:29,725 --> 00:56:32,085
Speaker 2: then discuss it and see how that works. And so

1108
00:56:32,165 --> 00:56:34,285
Speaker 2: in the book I also say, well, if it's something

1109
00:56:34,325 --> 00:56:35,965
Speaker 2: you like, you'd like to try as well, go ahead

1110
00:56:35,965 --> 00:56:38,605
Speaker 2: with it, but also put in some contingencies. And this

1111
00:56:38,645 --> 00:56:40,045
Speaker 2: is where I kind of, you know, I add some

1112
00:56:40,165 --> 00:56:42,685
Speaker 2: kind of gray areas into it, like put in some

1113
00:56:42,725 --> 00:56:45,685
Speaker 2: contingencies and say I've tried this, but I don't like it.

1114
00:56:45,885 --> 00:56:47,525
Speaker 2: And I also want to agree with you that if

1115
00:56:47,565 --> 00:56:49,005
Speaker 2: I've tried it and I don't like it, that we

1116
00:56:49,005 --> 00:56:51,925
Speaker 2: can go back to where we were or decide to

1117
00:56:51,965 --> 00:56:54,565
Speaker 2: move away from each other. So what am I trying

1118
00:56:54,565 --> 00:56:56,725
Speaker 2: to do there is I'm trying to open up that

1119
00:56:56,805 --> 00:57:00,805
Speaker 2: conversation in a way that can help people to navigate

1120
00:57:00,845 --> 00:57:03,765
Speaker 2: that discussion and not just be a black and white discussion.

1121
00:57:03,765 --> 00:57:04,725
Speaker 3: For some people it's a.

1122
00:57:04,725 --> 00:57:07,565
Speaker 2: Yes or no. But because more and more people are

1123
00:57:07,645 --> 00:57:11,485
Speaker 2: asking this in a relationship, how can you navigate that discussion?

1124
00:57:11,485 --> 00:57:15,085
Speaker 2: Because maybe it might just be a moment, a moment,

1125
00:57:15,125 --> 00:57:17,965
Speaker 2: a momentarily thing of a partner, and maybe that partner

1126
00:57:18,045 --> 00:57:21,525
Speaker 2: probably you know, will be okay to stay with you,

1127
00:57:21,605 --> 00:57:24,205
Speaker 2: even not opening up the relationship. It's about having the

1128
00:57:24,285 --> 00:57:28,205
Speaker 2: dialogue and having the conversation and doing that with being

1129
00:57:28,565 --> 00:57:32,445
Speaker 2: as least triggered as possible, because every relationship is about

1130
00:57:32,485 --> 00:57:34,405
Speaker 2: communication in the end, and that's kind of what I

1131
00:57:34,445 --> 00:57:38,085
Speaker 2: wanted to provide in that chapter, to help people know

1132
00:57:38,125 --> 00:57:39,565
Speaker 2: how to navigate that conversation.

1133
00:57:39,885 --> 00:57:42,245
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think for a lot of people it

1134
00:57:42,325 --> 00:57:47,965
Speaker 4: would be you might have an instinctive reaction to for

1135
00:57:48,005 --> 00:57:50,285
Speaker 4: it to feel like a rejection or to feel like

1136
00:57:50,365 --> 00:57:54,325
Speaker 4: chating when when it's not. And I mean, I think

1137
00:57:54,325 --> 00:57:58,405
Speaker 4: a thing throughout the whole book is the complexity and

1138
00:57:58,405 --> 00:58:02,205
Speaker 4: the nuances in relationships and the fact that you have

1139
00:58:02,285 --> 00:58:05,685
Speaker 4: to tackle them if you want to build really really strong,

1140
00:58:05,845 --> 00:58:09,605
Speaker 4: long lasting, deep ones. I want to thank you so

1141
00:58:09,725 --> 00:58:13,965
Speaker 4: much for your time today. I could speak to you forever.

1142
00:58:15,125 --> 00:58:16,725
Speaker 3: Should we should do a follow up?

1143
00:58:17,725 --> 00:58:20,325
Speaker 5: Yes, definitely, definitely. I'll bring I'll bring some.

1144
00:58:20,325 --> 00:58:26,285
Speaker 4: New red flags that I've discovered about myself. I hope

1145
00:58:26,405 --> 00:58:30,405
Speaker 4: doctor Fenwick takes me up on that offer. So do

1146
00:58:30,445 --> 00:58:34,485
Speaker 4: you feel like you've had some of your ideas challenged,

1147
00:58:34,885 --> 00:58:37,045
Speaker 4: like you have a bit of a more nuanced and

1148
00:58:37,125 --> 00:58:42,285
Speaker 4: considered understanding of what other people's behaviors mean and how

1149
00:58:42,325 --> 00:58:46,485
Speaker 4: to interpret something that might be screaming red flag but

1150
00:58:46,645 --> 00:58:48,565
Speaker 4: might actually be a good.

1151
00:58:48,365 --> 00:58:50,805
Speaker 5: Opportunity for some self reflection.

1152
00:58:52,005 --> 00:58:56,125
Speaker 4: After this conversation, I'm far more inclined to pause when

1153
00:58:56,125 --> 00:58:59,605
Speaker 4: I encounter a red flag in someone else, and to

1154
00:58:59,685 --> 00:59:03,005
Speaker 4: think twice and have a bit of a moment to

1155
00:59:03,045 --> 00:59:07,725
Speaker 4: look within before bolting or judging, or, as I've been

1156
00:59:07,765 --> 00:59:10,885
Speaker 4: known to do, gossiping, and that's the bad kind of gossip.

1157
00:59:11,285 --> 00:59:14,405
Speaker 4: I'll probably stick to the positive kind that doctor Fenwick

1158
00:59:14,485 --> 00:59:17,885
Speaker 4: says is okay. Whether it's at work, or with our

1159
00:59:17,965 --> 00:59:23,725
Speaker 4: families or in romantic relationships. There's an increasing trend I've

1160
00:59:23,765 --> 00:59:28,045
Speaker 4: noticed to set boundaries that might end up isolating us,

1161
00:59:28,685 --> 00:59:32,445
Speaker 4: and doctor Fenwick's work is a powerful reminder to err

1162
00:59:32,605 --> 00:59:37,085
Speaker 4: on the side of connection, of empathy, and of learning

1163
00:59:37,165 --> 00:59:42,925
Speaker 4: more about others and about ourselves. The executive producer of

1164
00:59:42,965 --> 00:59:47,045
Speaker 4: No Filter is Nama Brown. Audio production and sound design

1165
00:59:47,245 --> 00:59:50,685
Speaker 4: by Jacob Brownd. Maya Friedman is the creator and the

1166
00:59:50,765 --> 00:59:53,365
Speaker 4: host of No Filter, and it was a joy to

1167
00:59:53,445 --> 00:59:56,965
Speaker 4: sit in the big chair for her Today, I'm Claire Stevens.

1168
00:59:57,125 --> 00:59:57,925
Speaker 5: Thanks for listening.