WEBVTT - The Day Stuart Diver Decided To Live [re-release] 0:00:10.405 --> 0:00:13.125 You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast. 0:00:13.925 --> 0:00:16.885 Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.885 --> 0:00:20.605 that this podcast is recorded on. I'm Meya Friedman and 0:00:20.645 --> 0:00:23.325 the team at Mumma Mea are bringing you over one 0:00:23.365 --> 0:00:27.365 hundred hours of the very best of the podcasts that 0:00:27.405 --> 0:00:31.485 we've made from across our podcast network. Do you know 0:00:31.525 --> 0:00:34.485 that we have something like fifty six different podcasts here 0:00:34.525 --> 0:00:38.165 at Mamma Mia. And if you follow this one, we 0:00:38.325 --> 0:00:41.405 have selected some others that you might like to listen 0:00:41.405 --> 0:00:43.925 to as well. And we've also brought back some of 0:00:43.925 --> 0:00:48.485 our most popular and most riveting stories from No Filter, 0:00:48.765 --> 0:00:50.925 which is what you're going to hear today. We first 0:00:50.965 --> 0:00:54.085 brought you the story of Stuart Diver in twenty twenty one, 0:00:54.325 --> 0:00:56.605 and as you're going to hear, Stuart was the sole 0:00:56.845 --> 0:01:01.325 survivor of the nineteen ninety seven Threadbow Landslide. His name 0:01:01.325 --> 0:01:04.685 that will be familiar to so many people. It was 0:01:05.165 --> 0:01:08.925 absolutely iconic, the image of him being pulled from that 0:01:09.005 --> 0:01:13.205 rubble after many days when everybody thought that there was 0:01:13.245 --> 0:01:17.005 no hope, and indeed under that rubble he was lying 0:01:17.205 --> 0:01:20.645 next to his wife Sally, and the experience and the 0:01:20.685 --> 0:01:22.925 losses that he would go on to survive in the 0:01:23.005 --> 0:01:28.565 years to come, were not over because unbelievably, Stuart lost 0:01:28.565 --> 0:01:31.885 his second wife as well. I was kind of dreading 0:01:31.965 --> 0:01:34.405 this interview, and I think I said that to Stuart 0:01:34.605 --> 0:01:36.485 because it sounds from what I just told you like 0:01:36.565 --> 0:01:40.805 it would be really sad. But it is actually so enjoyable, 0:01:41.365 --> 0:01:44.685 so funny. Of course, not all of it's funny, but 0:01:45.165 --> 0:01:47.205 it's one of those things that if you are in 0:01:47.245 --> 0:01:51.005 the groups of grief and thinking that you will never 0:01:51.725 --> 0:01:55.965 move past it, or heartbreak or something impossibly difficult to 0:01:56.045 --> 0:01:59.645 cope with. Stuart isn't a remarkable man, and it is 0:01:59.765 --> 0:02:03.405 truly a remarkable story, and I really enjoyed my time 0:02:03.405 --> 0:02:05.765 with him, which is why I wanted to pop this 0:02:05.885 --> 0:02:21.765 in your ears. It was an ordinary day on the 0:02:21.805 --> 0:02:25.845 thirtieth of July nineteen ninety seven in Threadbow. Thousands of 0:02:25.845 --> 0:02:28.925 people from across the country and the world had flocked 0:02:28.925 --> 0:02:31.565 to the ski town to enjoy the snow, along with 0:02:31.605 --> 0:02:34.645 the tight knit community of men and women who worked 0:02:34.645 --> 0:02:38.045 on the ski field as instructors and lift operators and 0:02:38.085 --> 0:02:42.725 in the village in hospitality. But at eleven thirty five 0:02:42.765 --> 0:02:49.725 pm that evening, the earth moved. It literally moved, and 0:02:49.845 --> 0:02:52.885 lives were changed and lost in just a few minutes. 0:02:56.285 --> 0:03:00.565 The Threadbow landslide happened fast. It hit two ski lodgers 0:03:00.725 --> 0:03:04.405 where nineteen people were sleeping. It destroyed the buildings, ripping 0:03:04.405 --> 0:03:07.885 them off their foundations, and plunged all of those people 0:03:07.925 --> 0:03:12.285 inside under tons of debris and concrete. For the first 0:03:12.325 --> 0:03:16.085 two days we were told that there would be no survivors. However, 0:03:16.485 --> 0:03:19.445 on the morning of the third day, sixty six hours 0:03:19.485 --> 0:03:23.045 after he was buried, my guest today was found alive. 0:03:23.845 --> 0:03:26.365 He was the lone survivor of one of the most 0:03:26.365 --> 0:03:28.565 famous tragedies in Australia's history. 0:03:29.205 --> 0:03:31.325 We live from Threadbow. This is a special one hour 0:03:31.445 --> 0:03:34.525 edition of ten News. I'm Sandra Sully News. Just a hand. 0:03:34.565 --> 0:03:37.285 I'm hoping you can see these pictures. They are wonderful pictures. 0:03:37.325 --> 0:03:41.005 Philart Diver has been freed. His stretcher is being moved 0:03:41.125 --> 0:03:45.885 slowly up incrementally towards the ambulance. Sixty to seventy emergency 0:03:45.925 --> 0:03:50.365 workers are waiting there anxiously to receive him and of 0:03:50.405 --> 0:03:51.605 course assess his condition. 0:03:59.325 --> 0:03:59.965 From Momma Maya. 0:04:00.045 --> 0:04:02.645 You're listening to No Filter, the podcast where people from 0:04:02.645 --> 0:04:05.885 all walks of life, tell their stories very candidly and 0:04:05.925 --> 0:04:09.245 aren't afraid to be vulnerable. My name is Mia Friedman. 0:04:10.605 --> 0:04:13.045 Stuart Diver has been through more in his fifty one 0:04:13.125 --> 0:04:16.365 years than most people go through in their entire lives. 0:04:16.845 --> 0:04:19.005 When he was just twenty seven, he was the sole 0:04:19.085 --> 0:04:22.365 survivor of a landslide which took the life of his wife, Sally, 0:04:23.245 --> 0:04:27.045 and in twenty fifteen, Stuart lost his second wife, Rosanna. 0:04:27.645 --> 0:04:30.085 Their daughter was just four years old at the time. 0:04:31.205 --> 0:04:34.525 You might say that Stuart has every right to be angry, 0:04:34.765 --> 0:04:38.365 to feel sorry for himself, to be pissed off at 0:04:38.365 --> 0:04:42.245 the world. But here's the thing, he's not. He's really, 0:04:42.285 --> 0:04:45.805 really not because on that day in nineteen ninety seven 0:04:46.125 --> 0:04:49.645 and on that day in twenty fifteen, when the world 0:04:49.765 --> 0:04:55.765 dealt him two unthinkable blows, Stuart decided to live, not 0:04:55.885 --> 0:04:59.445 just to survive, but to live in a big way, 0:05:00.085 --> 0:05:03.285 to be happy, to laugh because when things get tough. 0:05:03.765 --> 0:05:06.845 Stuart asked himself two questions, what is it that I'm 0:05:06.845 --> 0:05:10.965 actually living for and what is it that's driving me forward? 0:05:11.485 --> 0:05:14.085 And his reasons are pretty amazing, I mean looking forward 0:05:14.125 --> 0:05:17.165 to this, so I actually, like everyone else over the 0:05:17.165 --> 0:05:19.925 age of about thirty. I remember exactly where I was 0:05:20.125 --> 0:05:23.245 when Stuart Diver was pulled blinking from the rubble on 0:05:23.325 --> 0:05:27.125 live TV. I can still picture his wife, Sally's face 0:05:27.365 --> 0:05:30.165 from all the media coverage. It went on for days 0:05:30.245 --> 0:05:33.485 and weeks and months. It was one of those tragedies 0:05:33.645 --> 0:05:37.765 that the whole country felt, which is why, to be honest, 0:05:38.045 --> 0:05:42.245 I've been reluctant to interview Stuart until now, especially after 0:05:42.325 --> 0:05:46.285 learning that his second wife had passed away. But then 0:05:46.325 --> 0:05:50.805 I realized that Stuart's story and his resilience could help 0:05:50.885 --> 0:05:55.405 so many people, especially right now and his bloody great company. 0:05:56.285 --> 0:05:58.885 Stuart Diver is the host of a new podcast called 0:05:58.885 --> 0:06:02.125 The Elements. He's the single dad of twelve year old Alessier, 0:06:02.885 --> 0:06:06.245 and he's the general manager of Threadbow Resorts, and that's 0:06:06.285 --> 0:06:09.165 where he joins me from right now. I wanted to 0:06:09.165 --> 0:06:11.805 ask you prepare for an interview like this, Like when 0:06:11.845 --> 0:06:14.525 you sat down, you said, I'm looking forward to this. 0:06:14.845 --> 0:06:18.365 And I said to someone today, I'm interviewing Stewart Diver 0:06:18.445 --> 0:06:21.205 today and I'm really looking forward to it. And they said, 0:06:21.405 --> 0:06:25.045 are you being sarcastic? And I went, no, I'm actually 0:06:25.085 --> 0:06:29.725 really excited. My feelings aside, How do you prepare knowing 0:06:30.085 --> 0:06:31.365 the stuff we're going to talk about? 0:06:31.685 --> 0:06:33.925 Yeah, I mean I think the easiest way for me 0:06:34.125 --> 0:06:37.045 is the only reason that I do and talk about 0:06:37.045 --> 0:06:39.845 my experiences and what I've been through is to try 0:06:39.885 --> 0:06:43.245 and share what I've learned from those experiences and then 0:06:43.445 --> 0:06:48.485 hopefully through that others can get a positive outcome or 0:06:48.605 --> 0:06:52.565 I can influence, you know, and change something in someone's life. 0:06:52.765 --> 0:06:55.365 So I come in to a podcast or to an 0:06:55.405 --> 0:06:59.685 interview thinking what is the outcome going to be and 0:06:59.845 --> 0:07:04.085 is it worth me then delving into those emotional depths 0:07:04.125 --> 0:07:06.405 and sharing my story, and if it is, then it's 0:07:06.445 --> 0:07:09.605 actually really really easy to do because you know, my 0:07:09.725 --> 0:07:12.725 life is about trying to find the positives and trying 0:07:12.765 --> 0:07:14.845 to live in that way, and I see this is 0:07:14.925 --> 0:07:17.645 just an addition to doing that and being able to share. 0:07:17.405 --> 0:07:21.565 That with others, that idea of purpose, finding purpose, because 0:07:21.565 --> 0:07:24.365 otherwise it becomes grief point, doesn't it just someone rummaging 0:07:24.405 --> 0:07:25.525 around in your trauma? 0:07:25.765 --> 0:07:28.445 Yeah? Absolutely, I mean I base a lot of what 0:07:28.485 --> 0:07:32.325 I've done on my belief system and what is it 0:07:32.645 --> 0:07:35.485 that I'm actually living for? So, you know, how do 0:07:35.525 --> 0:07:38.965 you survive those traumas in your life, big or small. 0:07:39.445 --> 0:07:42.325 What is it that's driving me forward? And I think 0:07:42.365 --> 0:07:46.165 that's really key because you know, you can go and 0:07:46.245 --> 0:07:48.165 wallow in that grief and you're allowed to be in 0:07:48.205 --> 0:07:50.845 that place, like you're allowed to feel sorry for yourself. 0:07:50.885 --> 0:07:52.605 There's no problem with that at all. But if you 0:07:52.845 --> 0:07:54.845 spend all of your time there, then you're not going 0:07:54.885 --> 0:07:57.125 to have a very positive life. So I think it 0:07:57.205 --> 0:08:01.085 really is working out what is it that I'm living for? 0:08:01.285 --> 0:08:04.045 And you know, for me, it's the fact that I 0:08:04.085 --> 0:08:07.045 love people. I love sharing life with people, I love 0:08:07.125 --> 0:08:10.965 caring for people, and that's what drives me forward. So 0:08:11.125 --> 0:08:16.005 whether it was living for that or living for those people, 0:08:16.205 --> 0:08:17.765 that's what gets me out of bed every day. 0:08:18.125 --> 0:08:20.845 Will you like that before the landslide? 0:08:21.125 --> 0:08:24.125 I definitely think that I was. I mean, my mum 0:08:24.165 --> 0:08:27.045 and dad definitely instilled that in me from a very 0:08:27.085 --> 0:08:29.245 young age, you know, that caring spirit. We did a 0:08:29.245 --> 0:08:31.565 lot of charity work, you know, as kids. There was 0:08:31.565 --> 0:08:33.485 a lot of things that I didn't like doing, getting 0:08:33.485 --> 0:08:37.765 forced into. But I think that whole attitude of community 0:08:37.965 --> 0:08:40.965 and looking after each other and pulling together, you know, 0:08:41.125 --> 0:08:43.725 was definitely instilled in me. I think It's definitely been 0:08:43.805 --> 0:08:47.525 refined because of what I've gone through, obviously definitely focused 0:08:47.645 --> 0:08:51.645 me more on what is truly important and probably given 0:08:51.685 --> 0:08:54.005 me a lot more clarity around that. And I think 0:08:54.005 --> 0:08:55.645 that that's probably the difference. But you know, a lot 0:08:55.645 --> 0:08:57.605 of people say, oh, you know, did the landslide change 0:08:57.645 --> 0:08:59.845 you know? You know? And I think you can speak 0:08:59.885 --> 0:09:02.445 to a lot of people who knew me before and afterwards, 0:09:02.445 --> 0:09:06.325 I'm the same person. I've definitely, hopefully because that's a 0:09:06.365 --> 0:09:08.965 long time ago, hopefully I've matured and some of my 0:09:09.085 --> 0:09:12.885 points you may have changed and developed, etc. But yeah, overall, 0:09:12.965 --> 0:09:15.405 I think deep down I'm exactly the same person that 0:09:15.445 --> 0:09:16.445 I've always been. 0:09:16.765 --> 0:09:20.085 You're the same person, but people no doubt see you 0:09:20.125 --> 0:09:25.245 differently since the landslide and everything that's happened to you 0:09:25.285 --> 0:09:28.645 than they did before. So I was going to ask you. 0:09:28.685 --> 0:09:32.845 When people are famous for whatever reasons, when someone meets them, 0:09:32.965 --> 0:09:36.485 sometimes the onus is on that famous person to make 0:09:36.485 --> 0:09:40.645 them feel less intimidated or at ease. I had someone 0:09:40.645 --> 0:09:43.045 who said to me recently, after they lost someone, people 0:09:43.085 --> 0:09:45.045 would do this thing where they'd tilt their head and go, 0:09:45.885 --> 0:09:48.925 how are you you know, and there'd be a lot 0:09:48.925 --> 0:09:50.765 of subtext in that head tilt. 0:09:52.125 --> 0:09:54.965 Do you find that, Yes, absolutely, a lot of it 0:09:55.045 --> 0:10:00.045 is looking after the other person, And that's what can 0:10:00.125 --> 0:10:04.045 become really really difficult, because you know, you're sharing your story, 0:10:04.045 --> 0:10:06.965 you're sharing some of the most emotional things that happened 0:10:07.005 --> 0:10:09.925 in your life, like the landslide, fairly traumatic a point 0:10:09.965 --> 0:10:14.005 in my life. Yet sometimes people come to you even 0:10:14.165 --> 0:10:16.565 you know, I look at you know, when Rosanna died 0:10:16.645 --> 0:10:19.605 the same thing. People come because they want to be 0:10:19.685 --> 0:10:22.805 made to feel more comfortable about them. So you spend 0:10:22.845 --> 0:10:26.965 half the time actually making them feel comfortable about the 0:10:27.045 --> 0:10:30.165 death of someone or whatever it is, rather than them 0:10:30.365 --> 0:10:33.445 because if you're okay, then they can be okay. I mean, 0:10:33.445 --> 0:10:35.165 it has some benefits, you know. And I always say 0:10:35.165 --> 0:10:38.805 for me, you know, my notoriety or you know, hate 0:10:38.805 --> 0:10:41.205 the word celebrity, but that it's always been such a 0:10:41.245 --> 0:10:43.765 positive experience because people are coming out to me going wow, 0:10:43.845 --> 0:10:45.565 you know, it's amazing, and you're still here and you 0:10:45.645 --> 0:10:47.765 love this place and you know, so it's not like 0:10:47.765 --> 0:10:50.485 I'm a criminal, So the experience is actually really positive. 0:10:50.765 --> 0:10:53.245 But in doing that, it puts a lot of pressure 0:10:53.285 --> 0:10:56.885 on me to make sure that I'm in a mental 0:10:56.965 --> 0:10:59.565 space that I'm able to share that and do that, 0:10:59.605 --> 0:11:01.325 and I don't just snap back at people and tell 0:11:01.365 --> 0:11:03.405 them to go away and do whatever, which is what 0:11:03.445 --> 0:11:05.885 you see happen a lot when you get pushed, you know, 0:11:05.925 --> 0:11:07.805 you turn the other way. So there was a huge 0:11:07.805 --> 0:11:10.805 impetus early on, not that that was the main focus 0:11:10.805 --> 0:11:12.725 for me, but definitely for me to be able to 0:11:12.845 --> 0:11:15.045 work on my mental health so that I was able 0:11:15.085 --> 0:11:17.845 to talk about everything that I'd been through and share 0:11:17.885 --> 0:11:20.685 it in a way that was positive, because you know, 0:11:20.845 --> 0:11:23.285 the reality is if I can do that to someone 0:11:23.325 --> 0:11:25.685 who's walking down the street in Threadbow, you know, and 0:11:25.725 --> 0:11:28.205 it's five minutes of my life and it's a hug, 0:11:28.285 --> 0:11:31.405 and you know, that can be in some ways, not 0:11:31.445 --> 0:11:34.965 to put say that anything special, but that can be 0:11:35.005 --> 0:11:38.325 a really really positive experience for that person. And that's 0:11:38.325 --> 0:11:40.125 how I look at it. So yeah, I never look 0:11:40.165 --> 0:11:40.885 at it as a threat. 0:11:41.045 --> 0:11:43.325 It's quite a heavy load to carry though, because I 0:11:43.325 --> 0:11:45.845 was thinking that other people who involved in traumatic events, 0:11:45.845 --> 0:11:50.725 including many of the people that you interviewed for your podcast, 0:11:50.765 --> 0:11:55.165 the elements. If someone's in a car accident, other people 0:11:55.165 --> 0:11:57.325 aren't going to want to tell them where they were 0:11:58.405 --> 0:12:01.485 when that car accident happened, but I imagined that people 0:12:01.605 --> 0:12:04.525 always want to tell you where they were when you 0:12:04.565 --> 0:12:06.365 were pulled out of that building. 0:12:06.605 --> 0:12:10.645 You nailed the number one opening. Yeah, when they approach 0:12:10.645 --> 0:12:13.365 and it is amazing. I mean, the Threadbao Landslide was 0:12:13.405 --> 0:12:16.125 really that first big Threadbow media event. It was the 0:12:16.165 --> 0:12:19.125 first time satellite dishes were in an area. It was 0:12:19.165 --> 0:12:21.405 just new technology, but they were here. It was live, 0:12:21.485 --> 0:12:23.885 it was getting broadcasts. I mean, stuff that's done every 0:12:23.885 --> 0:12:26.565 single minute of the day now in today's society. But 0:12:26.645 --> 0:12:28.725 then it was big. And I always say, you know 0:12:28.805 --> 0:12:32.405 that my face. People say, you know, twenty four years on, 0:12:32.565 --> 0:12:35.365 wouldn't people forget your face? But I say no, because 0:12:35.605 --> 0:12:39.165 what it is, it's the emotional attachment that's linked to 0:12:39.245 --> 0:12:41.485 my face. So it's going to be there forever. I 0:12:41.565 --> 0:12:44.365 have two choices to make, and that is either you 0:12:44.525 --> 0:12:46.765 deny that that's happening, you put your head down, you 0:12:46.765 --> 0:12:48.445 put on the dark glasses, and you go away, or 0:12:48.485 --> 0:12:51.165 you use it for something positive. So that story of 0:12:51.205 --> 0:12:55.005 where that person was on that day usually leads them 0:12:55.045 --> 0:12:58.205 to them talking about something else, and it'll be maybe 0:12:58.245 --> 0:13:00.685 their daughter died or their daughter had breast cancer. Or 0:13:00.725 --> 0:13:03.605 whatever it is. And for me that's the most amazing 0:13:03.645 --> 0:13:06.365 part of it, because my psychologist always says to me, Stuart, 0:13:06.365 --> 0:13:08.485 don't become a pop psychologist, So I'm not there offering 0:13:08.525 --> 0:13:11.645 people advice on the street. But it's a great way 0:13:11.685 --> 0:13:13.445 of being able to share and say, you know, one 0:13:13.485 --> 0:13:15.165 of the big things that we need to do more 0:13:15.205 --> 0:13:17.885 as a society is we need to share that stuff 0:13:17.925 --> 0:13:19.885 with each other because the more we do it, the 0:13:19.925 --> 0:13:22.845 more we realize it normalizes it and it makes those 0:13:22.925 --> 0:13:26.485 experiences seem as not as traumatic as they really should be. 0:13:26.725 --> 0:13:29.085 I realized, Wow, it's a lot of other people in 0:13:29.125 --> 0:13:33.285 the world going through unbelievable amounts of pain and suffering 0:13:33.325 --> 0:13:36.405 and trauma every single day. So what is it we 0:13:36.445 --> 0:13:39.285 can do as a collective to help each other rather 0:13:39.365 --> 0:13:42.445 than me just focusing on myself, which we all do 0:13:42.765 --> 0:13:44.725 as an individual. And I just need to look after 0:13:44.765 --> 0:13:47.045 my mental health and I'll be fine. But the real 0:13:47.085 --> 0:13:49.805 good test for me is that working is that I 0:13:49.845 --> 0:13:53.365 can talk about it to you today. That shows me 0:13:53.445 --> 0:13:55.325 that all of that work that I've done on my 0:13:55.405 --> 0:13:58.725 mental health with my psychologist over twenty four years has 0:13:58.805 --> 0:13:59.285 paid off. 0:13:59.725 --> 0:14:02.325 Three enormous things happened to you in a very short 0:14:02.365 --> 0:14:05.325 space of time, a matter of hours. Twenty four years ago, 0:14:06.005 --> 0:14:08.485 you were involved in a major trauma and nearly lost 0:14:08.485 --> 0:14:09.085 your life. 0:14:10.285 --> 0:14:11.605 You lost your. 0:14:11.485 --> 0:14:15.805 Wife, and you became the most famous man in Australia. 0:14:16.965 --> 0:14:20.605 All of those three things happened and no doubt inextricably linked, 0:14:20.645 --> 0:14:24.485 but they're three very different things to process. How do 0:14:24.525 --> 0:14:26.725 you go about unpicking them from each other? 0:14:27.245 --> 0:14:29.645 It took a lot of work with my psychologist in 0:14:29.725 --> 0:14:33.325 the months and years afterwards. Is the reality of it, 0:14:33.405 --> 0:14:38.965 because there's bits there that are me surviving and coming 0:14:39.005 --> 0:14:43.045 out and that celebrity that was forced upon me or 0:14:43.085 --> 0:14:46.285 thrust upon me in some ways was a hugely positive experience. 0:14:46.285 --> 0:14:47.925 In other ways there were negativities that went with that 0:14:48.045 --> 0:14:52.605 as well. Obviously my life in the initial stage is 0:14:52.685 --> 0:14:55.685 me surviving, a huge positive but then to be followed 0:14:55.765 --> 0:14:59.565 up by sixty five hours of horrific drama, and then 0:14:59.645 --> 0:15:03.725 couple that, as you say, with Sally dying. We basically 0:15:03.925 --> 0:15:07.925 had to separate all of that out and work out okay, 0:15:08.005 --> 0:15:11.525 So within all of those points, there's some huge positives 0:15:11.525 --> 0:15:14.365 and some huge negatives, So we had to deal with 0:15:14.405 --> 0:15:15.965 what are the negatives? And how are we going to 0:15:16.005 --> 0:15:18.605 deal with those so they don't just keep resurfacing through 0:15:18.645 --> 0:15:22.925 my life and being reliving that traumatic experience. And that's 0:15:22.925 --> 0:15:25.565 not to say the traumatic experience goes away. It stays 0:15:25.605 --> 0:15:27.565 with you for life, you know. That is the greatest 0:15:27.605 --> 0:15:30.645 myth ever. Anyone who goes through any sort of trauma, 0:15:30.685 --> 0:15:32.445 it generally you can do as much work as you want. 0:15:32.525 --> 0:15:34.605 It stays with you for life. So for me, it 0:15:34.725 --> 0:15:39.365 was not only separating those experiences, but then working out 0:15:39.805 --> 0:15:41.845 what was it that I was going to keep and 0:15:42.085 --> 0:15:44.765 use as the positives to go forward. So, you know, 0:15:44.885 --> 0:15:47.005 me living that's a pretty easy one because I got 0:15:47.005 --> 0:15:49.725 to live and share my life with everyone else. Coming 0:15:49.765 --> 0:15:52.885 out and being a minor celebrity and doing that well, 0:15:53.005 --> 0:15:55.605 really that, you know, in some ways is just operational stuff. 0:15:55.645 --> 0:15:58.325 You get a good media manager around you, and life 0:15:58.405 --> 0:16:01.125 goes on. So the biggest one in there was obviously 0:16:01.165 --> 0:16:04.605 the death of Sally, you know, and that's horrific and 0:16:04.645 --> 0:16:07.165 I sort of can look back on it now having 0:16:07.485 --> 0:16:11.125 lived through the death of Rosa when she died of 0:16:11.165 --> 0:16:15.165 breast cancer. Two very very different experiences, you know, same outcome, 0:16:15.485 --> 0:16:18.685 but two very different experiences, And I now realize why. 0:16:19.045 --> 0:16:22.285 You know, Sally's death was so traumatic, it's that no goodbyes. 0:16:22.685 --> 0:16:24.485 Really you look at that and you go, there are 0:16:24.525 --> 0:16:26.925 no real positives you can drag out of that. You know, 0:16:27.005 --> 0:16:29.325 you're twenty seven years old, the love of your life 0:16:29.805 --> 0:16:31.965 dies in two and a half minutes next to you. 0:16:32.085 --> 0:16:33.885 Where do you get the positive? But that's where I 0:16:33.925 --> 0:16:36.565 come back to, you know, where we started talking initially, 0:16:36.645 --> 0:16:40.445 What is it that I'm living for? In that situation there, 0:16:41.125 --> 0:16:44.445 I tried to save the life of the person I 0:16:44.485 --> 0:16:46.605 love the most in the world. I tried to care 0:16:47.125 --> 0:16:49.125 for the person I loved the most in the world. 0:16:49.165 --> 0:16:51.285 I was unable to do it. You know, I tried 0:16:51.285 --> 0:16:54.045 to stop a drowning. She drowned, and that was it 0:16:54.765 --> 0:16:58.125 hugely horrific. But when I look back at that, in 0:16:58.165 --> 0:17:02.205 the most stressful time of my life, what I did 0:17:02.405 --> 0:17:06.085 was I tried to take care of the person that 0:17:06.125 --> 0:17:08.405 I loved and cared for the most in the world. 0:17:09.125 --> 0:17:13.405 So my fundamental belief came to the fore. So when 0:17:13.445 --> 0:17:15.485 I look at that now, I look at my life 0:17:15.485 --> 0:17:18.565 and I say, that was really devastating. But I look 0:17:18.605 --> 0:17:21.645 at Sally and I go, wow, you know, would she 0:17:21.805 --> 0:17:24.885 want me to still be at that spot thinking that 0:17:24.965 --> 0:17:27.485 I failed in doing that, or would she want me 0:17:27.645 --> 0:17:30.885 to be going on to live a life focusing on 0:17:31.005 --> 0:17:33.765 what I believe in, focusing on my values and using 0:17:33.805 --> 0:17:36.765 that to drive me forward. And that's what I believe 0:17:36.925 --> 0:17:39.205 she would want me to do. People could say her 0:17:39.205 --> 0:17:42.885 life was wasted, but I look at it and say, yeah, 0:17:42.925 --> 0:17:46.125 her life was definitely cut short, but there is a 0:17:46.245 --> 0:17:50.245 real duty on me to then live my life to 0:17:50.325 --> 0:17:53.885 the fullest in the most positive way, in memory of 0:17:53.965 --> 0:17:56.365 her and what a beautiful person she was and all 0:17:56.405 --> 0:17:59.565 of those amazing beliefs and traits that she had, And 0:17:59.605 --> 0:18:02.205 that's what drives me forward. And that's happened again. You 0:18:02.205 --> 0:18:06.125 know with Rosannah, the same process happens hugely traumatic, but 0:18:06.765 --> 0:18:09.245 you know, and sometimes it can sound a bit facetious, 0:18:09.365 --> 0:18:12.685 but it's not. You know, you can get positives out 0:18:12.685 --> 0:18:15.165 of these huge tragedies, and that's the only way I 0:18:15.205 --> 0:18:16.045 see to go forward. 0:18:16.285 --> 0:18:19.605 Post Traumatic growth is the term for that, isn't it. 0:18:19.645 --> 0:18:22.765 A lot of people aren't familiar with that term. Most 0:18:22.765 --> 0:18:29.005 people understand post traumatic stress disorder, but post traumatic growth 0:18:29.245 --> 0:18:32.445 is when I remember a friend who lost a baby 0:18:32.525 --> 0:18:34.885 said that she felt that the light in her life 0:18:34.925 --> 0:18:37.605 was turned up by the loss of that baby, not 0:18:37.845 --> 0:18:39.605 extinguished and not turned down. 0:18:40.245 --> 0:18:42.605 Yeah, it's that thing. Do you go nuts and go wow, 0:18:42.685 --> 0:18:44.845 you know I'm out? Yeah, every day is going to 0:18:44.885 --> 0:18:47.445 be my last. You know, you can try that, but 0:18:47.805 --> 0:18:49.605 that doesn't last very long. You can do that for 0:18:49.805 --> 0:18:52.245 a couple of months and you can pretend, but the 0:18:52.325 --> 0:18:53.365 reality is your. 0:18:53.205 --> 0:18:57.005 Life just goes back to normal. And I always said that, 0:18:57.005 --> 0:18:59.125 you know, my whole aim of my life has been 0:18:59.285 --> 0:19:01.645 to get my life back to normal. Now what the 0:19:01.725 --> 0:19:04.245 normal is is it's a new normal and it's changed. 0:19:04.525 --> 0:19:06.685 But a big part of that is making sure that 0:19:06.725 --> 0:19:10.605 you're comfortable with the past. Growth is about that. You 0:19:10.765 --> 0:19:13.165 have to be comfortable with what's gone on, you know, 0:19:13.285 --> 0:19:17.165 the feelings of guilt, all of those such negative emotions. 0:19:17.485 --> 0:19:19.245 You need to have dealt with all of that so 0:19:19.325 --> 0:19:22.885 that you can grow. And the really big thing is 0:19:22.925 --> 0:19:26.685 to not feel guilty about that. You know, society sometimes 0:19:26.925 --> 0:19:29.125 has a lot of these norms that go around that 0:19:29.205 --> 0:19:31.565 put pressure on us to stay in that spot. Oh 0:19:31.605 --> 0:19:33.605 you haven't quite grieved enough. You can't go on and 0:19:33.765 --> 0:19:36.165 have a new relationship. What's he thinking? That's terrible? You know, 0:19:36.325 --> 0:19:39.125 all of those sort of things you have to say, actually, 0:19:39.165 --> 0:19:42.165 this is me. If I dealt with that grief in 0:19:42.245 --> 0:19:45.925 one week, probably highly unusual, But if I did, that's me. 0:19:46.445 --> 0:19:47.885 And if I felt that I've dealt with that, that 0:19:47.965 --> 0:19:49.925 I'm allowed to move on with my life. If that 0:19:49.965 --> 0:19:53.045 grief also takes five years, or if it's with me forever, 0:19:53.365 --> 0:19:56.525 which is generally what happens, then that's okay too. And 0:19:56.565 --> 0:19:58.565 I think that, you know, we need to give ourselves 0:19:58.725 --> 0:20:01.005 when you go through those sort of traumas, that space 0:20:01.445 --> 0:20:03.005 to be able to deal with it. But yeah, you 0:20:03.045 --> 0:20:05.445 have to be able to really, really comfortable with your 0:20:05.485 --> 0:20:08.245 past to be able to go forward. Otherwise you just 0:20:08.325 --> 0:20:10.965 keep delving back and it's just becomes a circle round 0:20:10.965 --> 0:20:12.645 and round and around, and you never get to go forward. 0:20:12.925 --> 0:20:13.845 What was Sally like? 0:20:14.285 --> 0:20:16.765 She was amazing. I mean it's hard now. A lot 0:20:16.805 --> 0:20:19.085 of the memories have gone. You know, it's a long time. 0:20:19.165 --> 0:20:21.405 Twenty four years is a long time. But you know, 0:20:21.485 --> 0:20:23.925 the bits that I remember of Sally is that she 0:20:24.085 --> 0:20:27.205 was well liked by everyone around her because she was 0:20:27.205 --> 0:20:30.885 always bright and bubbly, and she was happy and she 0:20:30.925 --> 0:20:36.325 had that carefree attitude. Yet she had this really deep determination. 0:20:36.765 --> 0:20:38.845 She knew where she was going and she knew what 0:20:38.965 --> 0:20:41.525 she was doing. It was sort of like, don't cross me. 0:20:42.165 --> 0:20:45.005 I'll be nice and if you're nice, and we'll keep going. 0:20:45.045 --> 0:20:47.325 But she really did have that drive, and that's what 0:20:47.445 --> 0:20:50.125 I've thrived on. When she was alive and I was 0:20:50.165 --> 0:20:52.685 with her, you know, we were great duo together in 0:20:52.765 --> 0:20:54.725 all of the things that we experienced, and we drove 0:20:54.765 --> 0:20:58.565 each other. But I've used that going forward to say, 0:20:58.685 --> 0:21:01.925 you know what, would Sally actually accept that behavior? Probably not? 0:21:02.085 --> 0:21:04.005 So you know what, am I accepting it before? Let's 0:21:04.645 --> 0:21:07.565 use some of her traits to make my life a 0:21:07.565 --> 0:21:08.725 more positive place to be. 0:21:09.525 --> 0:21:14.445 To be pretty resilient and secure to date a widower. 0:21:14.845 --> 0:21:17.445