Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. We pay our respects
Speaker 2: to elders past, present and emerging, and feel privileged to
Speaker 2: continue the sharing of birth stories and knowledge that has
Speaker 2: been a fundamental part of Indigenous culture.
Speaker 3: Hi.
Speaker 1: I'm Cassinia Lukitch and this is Diary of a Birth.
Speaker 1: We've spoken about surrogacy and infertility a few times on
Speaker 1: the pod, but today's story has an added layer. After
Speaker 1: years of trying, twenty three rounds of IVF and constant setbacks,
Speaker 1: Today's mum turned to her sister, a sister who offered
Speaker 1: to carry her child.
Speaker 3: My sister Sophie offered before we were really ready to
Speaker 3: commit to surrogacy, and we said to her that we
Speaker 3: would wait for our doctor to tell us that it
Speaker 3: was time to consider surrogacy. So when the time came
Speaker 3: after my last failed cycle, he said it's time to
Speaker 3: speak to Sophie and Sewan.
Speaker 1: And despite feeling like her body failed her and the
Speaker 1: complex emotions of seeing her sister carrie a child she
Speaker 1: knew was biologically hers, she finally had her much wanted
Speaker 1: baby but the story doesn't end there. In what can
Speaker 1: only be described as a miracle, today's mum did actually
Speaker 1: have the pregnancy she always wanted. So while today's story
Speaker 1: is about her first baby, Goldie, it's also about her
Speaker 1: second child, Freddy. So let's meet today's mum.
Speaker 4: Hi, I'm Carli. This is the diary of my birth
Speaker 4: with Goldie.
Speaker 1: So Carly, your story is really really interesting. But you've
Speaker 1: got a little three week old crying in the background,
Speaker 1: So if we hear little cries, that's what that is.
Speaker 1: But can you tell us about your journey to conceiving
Speaker 1: and your journey to actually having Goldie.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so my husband Kurt and I were married in
Speaker 3: twenty fifteen and we felt pregnant quite quickly, and unfortunately
Speaker 3: that resulted in a miscarriage and yeah, it was a
Speaker 3: blighted over and I had a DNC and then after
Speaker 3: that we unfortunately weren't able to fell pregnant for years
Speaker 3: and that resulted in quite a lot of IVF and yeah,
Speaker 3: we had unexplained infertility.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how many rounds of IVF did she go through?
Speaker 3: We ended up having approximately twenty five rounds of IVF,
Speaker 3: so that entailed eleven egg collections and twenty five embryo transfers,
Speaker 3: which they were top quality embryos that were transferred to me.
Speaker 4: Yeah. We didn't have a chemical, a miscarriage, nothing, It
Speaker 4: was just every single transfer failed.
Speaker 1: That's so crazy. I mean, I I've had an egg
Speaker 1: collection before, and even doing one of them was hard.
Speaker 1: I can't even imagine going through the hormones and injections
Speaker 1: of eleven.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: That must have been very mentally taxing on you and
Speaker 1: your partner.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was. It was a really difficult time.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think ultimately it's made us stronger.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, eventually your doctor sort of suggested that it
Speaker 1: might be time to go down the sarrogacy route. Yes,
Speaker 1: and your sister actually offered to be your surrogate.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: My sister, Sophie offered before we were really ready to
Speaker 3: commit to surrogacy, and we said to her that we
Speaker 3: would wait for our doctor to tell us that it
Speaker 3: was time to consider surrogacy. He knew that Sophie and
Speaker 3: her husband Sean had offered, so when the time came
Speaker 3: after my last failed cycle, he said, it's time to
Speaker 3: speak to Sophie and Sean.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Obviously, your sister agreed to do this. But was
Speaker 1: that a complex feeling for you? Very Because before we
Speaker 1: recorded this interview, we spoke about you got three other siblings.
Speaker 1: You've got two brothers and a sister, Yes, all of
Speaker 1: whom had children whilst you were trying.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so there's four of us. I'm the eldest, and
Speaker 4: I've got two brothers and a sister. Yep.
Speaker 1: How was it for you seeing your siblings grow their
Speaker 1: family when you guys weren't able to.
Speaker 4: It was really hard.
Speaker 3: While I've always been, you know, such a baby person
Speaker 3: and so maternal and obviously so excited to have babies
Speaker 3: in the family, it was really heartbreaking because I felt
Speaker 3: like with them.
Speaker 4: I didn't have a poker face.
Speaker 3: They could see straight through me, and they could see
Speaker 3: how heartbroken Kurt and I were at that time, and
Speaker 3: I just felt like I couldn't share the journey with them.
Speaker 3: It was such an important and special time for them,
Speaker 3: and I had to step away because it was too
Speaker 3: hard for everybody.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of one of those really challenging feelings
Speaker 1: where you're you want to be happy for them, but
Speaker 1: it is so hard for you to just pretend like
Speaker 1: you're okay with it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And they could see, they could see through it.
Speaker 4: They know me so well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it was.
Speaker 4: Also so difficult for them.
Speaker 3: They felt like they had to, you know, cover up
Speaker 3: such joy in their life, and that made me feel
Speaker 3: so uncomfortable because I don't want anyone to have to
Speaker 3: do that. So, yeah, it was really hard, particularly when
Speaker 3: Sophie was pregnant with my niece.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when Sophie agreed to be your surrogate, how long
Speaker 1: did the process take for her to get pregnant.
Speaker 3: It was a little bit longer for us because Sophie
Speaker 3: and Sean wanted a second child, and with regards to
Speaker 3: the risks with surrogacy and the risks that you know,
Speaker 3: come with giving birth, it was decided that they would
Speaker 3: have their baby straight away and then we would look.
Speaker 3: So whilst Sophie felt pregnant, and while she was pregnant,
Speaker 3: I did to egg collections just to have some embryors
Speaker 3: in the bank for her when she was ready to transfer.
Speaker 1: Okay, so how long after she had your niece was
Speaker 1: she ready to go again?
Speaker 3: She had my nephew, So she had she had a
Speaker 3: little girl, and she had my nephew in the January.
Speaker 3: Six weeks later, she got cleared by her obstetrician, and
Speaker 3: it's a really long process of legals and counseling. You
Speaker 3: actually have to be approved through the board at what
Speaker 3: we were at IVF Australia, so it's quite a long process.
Speaker 3: So he was born in the January and we transferred
Speaker 3: Goldie's I think we were approved in the May and
Speaker 3: transferred in September, so.
Speaker 1: It's only sort of nine months after she gave birth.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, push. We pushed forward.
Speaker 3: Because she was ready and she wanted to just not
Speaker 3: get it done, but she it's something that she committed
Speaker 3: to and she was very eager to get started o
Speaker 3: Kurt and I obviously would have given her all the
Speaker 3: time in the world, but.
Speaker 4: Yeah, she was really keen to get started. So that's
Speaker 4: how it panned out.
Speaker 1: And tell me about finding out that she was pregnant
Speaker 1: with your baby.
Speaker 3: It was so surreal because of our history. There was
Speaker 3: so much of me holding back, not believing that it
Speaker 3: was real. So when we heard her heartbeat, that's a
Speaker 3: point I obviously never got to. So that's when I
Speaker 3: really started to believe that it was going to happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I imagine that everybody in your family would
Speaker 1: have just been so thrilled for you and Kurt.
Speaker 3: They were they It was such a huge time for
Speaker 3: my whole family, my parents and my in laws in particular. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it was just it was unbelievable. It was so nerve wracking,
Speaker 3: and you know, it was such a big process. We
Speaker 3: also didn't tell anyone that we were doing the surrogacy
Speaker 3: process except for our parents, So my brothers actually didn't
Speaker 3: know until Sophie was pregnant. Oh wow, Yeah, which might
Speaker 3: seem strange, but I just the thought of breaking their
Speaker 3: hearts again if it didn't work was too much, so
Speaker 3: we actually didn't even tell anyone.
Speaker 4: So it was Yeah, it was a big surprise, and
Speaker 4: that's amazing.
Speaker 1: And in terms of obviously you can't speak for Sophie,
Speaker 1: but what was the pregnancy like for her and what
Speaker 1: was it like for you watching your sister carry your child? Yeah?
Speaker 4: God, where do I start.
Speaker 3: Sophie doesn't have easy pregnancies, so she was very sick
Speaker 3: for about twenty weeks, which blows my mind even more.
Speaker 4: But it was hard.
Speaker 3: It was watching her be pregnant. My brain told me
Speaker 3: that that was her baby. It was really hard to connect.
Speaker 4: With what was my baby? That was growing in her
Speaker 4: and also seeing her suffer so much, and she hid
Speaker 4: a lot of it from me, but seeing her suffer,
Speaker 4: like you know, she's my younger sister, being protective of
Speaker 4: her as well. It was a really challenging time emotionally.
Speaker 1: Was there any yearning from you that you wanted to
Speaker 1: I don't know if jealousy is the right term, but yeah,
Speaker 1: not being able to do it yourself. Did you feel
Speaker 1: some kind of like, yeah, jealousy in that phrase, because
Speaker 1: I imagine that would be really hard.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was probably one of the hardest parts.
Speaker 3: That it's something that I wanted so badly for my
Speaker 3: entire life, and I had to, you know, just accept
Speaker 3: the fact that I wasn't going to be pregnant and
Speaker 3: this is what I had to do for my baby,
Speaker 3: and it's what I had to do for Kirk to
Speaker 3: become a father. Also in the background, you don't want
Speaker 3: to come off as ungrateful, because I was just so
Speaker 3: unbelievably grateful, but it was still really painful at the
Speaker 3: same time having to let go of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, after Sophie starts to feel better, was the pregnancy okay,
Speaker 1: like any health issues, any problems.
Speaker 4: No, I wouldn't say there was problems.
Speaker 3: Like being her third pregnancy, it wasn't easy on her
Speaker 3: as the you know, as the pregnancy went on. My
Speaker 3: baby was also a lot bigger than hers, which was
Speaker 3: a little bit uncomfortable.
Speaker 4: But yeah, aches and pains and you know, just the
Speaker 4: normal stuff. But once she got over her nausea and
Speaker 4: she actually was diagnosed with HG, so she was really unwell.
Speaker 4: Once she got over that, it was just planning for
Speaker 4: the delivery really. Yeah, it was in the middle as well,
Speaker 4: so that was quite tricky.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what was the delivery process like during COVID were
Speaker 1: you able to be with her?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 4: We had planned for her to have a cesarean.
Speaker 3: Her doctor thought that that would be better on her
Speaker 3: body because she wanted to continue to have a family
Speaker 3: after being a surrogate. So that was planned for the Wednesday,
Speaker 3: and she actually went into labor on the Tuesday night.
Speaker 3: So we were told for the cesarian we wouldn't be
Speaker 3: all out in theater and her husband Sean was going
Speaker 3: to be with her and we were going to wait
Speaker 3: in the room on the ward. At that stage, we
Speaker 3: didn't know if Goldie was a boy or a girl,
Speaker 3: so they were just going to wheel her in with
Speaker 3: a little bow on her head or a little beanie
Speaker 3: on but it changed and luckily enough, Kurt and Sean
Speaker 3: and I were able to be in the room with
Speaker 3: Sophie while she liver.
Speaker 4: So it was very special.
Speaker 1: Oh well that would have been amazing.
Speaker 4: It was, Yeah, it was.
Speaker 3: It was hard seeing her in so much pain and
Speaker 3: there was absolutely nothing I could do. But yeah, she
Speaker 3: did what she does best, and she'd done it twice before,
Speaker 3: and yeah, it was very special.
Speaker 1: So she ended up having a vaginal delivery.
Speaker 4: She did. Yep. Goldie decided to come early at thirty
Speaker 4: seven and.
Speaker 3: Four days, so yeah. She At one point she said, my,
Speaker 3: well she was in labor. Am I going to go
Speaker 3: down and have a CESAIA now? And said, no, you're
Speaker 3: too far along. You'll deliver on the operating table. So yeah,
Speaker 3: that's how it went, and it ended up going really well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Goldie comes out. You see it's a girl. Yeah,
Speaker 1: described to me that first moment of meeting her.
Speaker 3: Oh, it was incredible, Like I said, I didn't.
Speaker 4: I really struggled associating that Sophie was carrying my baby,
Speaker 4: not her own.
Speaker 3: And when I saw her head come out and she
Speaker 3: was turned and I saw her little face. I just
Speaker 3: instantly just thought, oh my god, that is my baby,
Speaker 3: and I was yeah, I was down there and Kurt
Speaker 3: was behind me holding my hand, and they pulled her
Speaker 3: out and they said what is it, and we both
Speaker 3: at the same time screamed, it's the girl.
Speaker 4: And I just was hysterically crying. It was just the
Speaker 4: best moment of my life. It was unbelievable.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, Yeah, what was your sister and her husband
Speaker 1: doing at this time? Were they crying as well? I
Speaker 1: imagine it would have been a room full of emotion,
Speaker 1: of course.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, the midwives, it certainly was.
Speaker 3: Sean was actually taking a video, so that was really handy,
Speaker 3: but he was, Yeah, he was there, and I mean
Speaker 3: it gets quite technical. I didn't want the baby to
Speaker 3: be passed straight to me because I wanted Sophie's body
Speaker 3: to recognize that she had birthed the baby.
Speaker 4: So she had a little towel on her chest.
Speaker 3: And they put the baby on her, but immediately she
Speaker 3: was like, oh, this is too much.
Speaker 4: So Goldie came to me and I had.
Speaker 3: Skin to skin and I also induced slactation, so I
Speaker 3: was able to breastfeed Goldie immediately.
Speaker 1: Oh, that would have been so special.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was. I just felt like it was really
Speaker 4: important for me to bond with her. So yeah, it
Speaker 4: was all happening.
Speaker 1: And this is making me a bit emotional, like I
Speaker 1: just I'm such an EmPATH like I forgold Just imagine
Speaker 1: how what a relief it would have been for you
Speaker 1: to hold your child after eight years of trying to
Speaker 1: have a baby and holding your baby for the first
Speaker 1: time and being able to feed her. Yeah, from your body. Yeah,
Speaker 1: finally your body is doing well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the other thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, my dad's doing something I needed it to do,
Speaker 3: which was really big emotionally for me. Yeah, she was
Speaker 3: born a little early, but she was big and she
Speaker 3: was happy, and it was honestly just a dream cometruy.
Speaker 3: I just could not believe that the moment that you know,
Speaker 3: we been fighting for for so long was actually there
Speaker 3: and I was holding our baby. Goldie is genetically mine
Speaker 3: and Kurt's baby, so yeah, it was unbelievable.
Speaker 1: I often think about that because you know, something I
Speaker 1: think doesn't get talked about a lot is how much
Speaker 1: you feel like your body is failing you. And it
Speaker 1: is so frustrating because it feels like it's you know,
Speaker 1: this is what this is what I'm supposed to be doing.
Speaker 1: Why can't I do it? Why can't I do it?
Speaker 1: It's just like this. You beat yourself up so much
Speaker 1: when you go through that infertility. Yeah, so I can
Speaker 1: just imagine that that feeling of relief and joy and
Speaker 1: having that.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So Goldie is three now, Yeah, does she know that
Speaker 1: her auntie Sophie carried her? Does she know any of
Speaker 1: that yet?
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah. We have a book that we read to her.
Speaker 3: It's called The Very Kind Koala, and The Kind Koala has,
Speaker 3: you know, a baby in her pouch and then once
Speaker 3: the baby comes out of her pouch, she gives the
Speaker 3: baby to the baby's mummy and daddy. So she understands that.
Speaker 3: She knows that her auntie, that you growing her Auntie's belly,
Speaker 3: and she's known that forever. I show her photos and
Speaker 3: videos and yeah, she understands that. I think she thinks
Speaker 3: it's very normal and it's not.
Speaker 4: But that's her normal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is her normal. And I think it's a
Speaker 1: beautiful way to explain it.
Speaker 4: Coming up, it still doesn't seem real.
Speaker 3: It's I just cannot believe it actually happened, and even
Speaker 3: though he was still ivy, if it's an absolute miracle
Speaker 3: for me to be able to actually feel pregnant and
Speaker 3: carry him was something we never ever thought was possible.
Speaker 1: Then you decided to have a second child.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so we knew that we wouldn't do surrogacy again.
Speaker 3: Sophie and Sean were going to continue with building their family,
Speaker 3: and it's not something that we would ever expect them
Speaker 3: to do for us. Again, she looked at surrogacy overseas,
Speaker 3: you're looking at two three hundred thousand dollars. At that point,
Speaker 3: we were just so grateful to be parents and to
Speaker 3: have Goldie. But I had nine I think nine embryos saved.
Speaker 3: So we decided that we would transfer those embryos to me,
Speaker 3: and with no expectation that they would work. Of course,
Speaker 3: we'd had so many failed transfers. So we transferred an
Speaker 3: embryo and it actually took, so we were just over
Speaker 3: the moon, But unfortunately.
Speaker 4: That ended in a miscarriage, and that miscarriage was a
Speaker 4: genetic issue with the embryo. It was a complete fluke
Speaker 4: and I had nothing to do with my body. But
Speaker 4: that pregnancy gave us hope, which we'd never had, so
Speaker 4: we decided to try again, which resulted in a failed transfer,
Speaker 4: and then the transfer after that has resulted in my son,
Speaker 4: who I had three weeks ago, so massive turn of events.
Speaker 1: I had to bring this up because, you know, I
Speaker 1: after so many years, Yeah, to finally be carrying a baby,
Speaker 1: finally have a pregnancy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's still it still doesn't seem real. It's I
Speaker 3: just cannot believe it actually happened. And even though he
Speaker 3: was still IVF, it's an absolute miracle. IVFS normal to me,
Speaker 3: but for me to be able to actually feel pregnant
Speaker 3: and carry him was something we never ever thought that
Speaker 3: was possible.
Speaker 1: Well, he's here, he is, He's here and happy. I'm
Speaker 1: sure Sophie was thrilled for you to be experiencing pregnancy
Speaker 1: as well.
Speaker 3: She was.
Speaker 4: She actually when he was born, and she came and
Speaker 4: met him the day was born. That's I think when
Speaker 4: it hit her.
Speaker 3: So soph and I were, I think in a bit
Speaker 3: of denial the whole time, even though my belly was growing,
Speaker 3: and it wasn't until he was born and she kind
Speaker 3: of saw me in the hospital and I think it
Speaker 3: kind of hit her then that, Yeah, she actually was
Speaker 3: pregnant at the same time. Oh wow, Yeah, so we
Speaker 3: were pregnant together. She had a daughter, Valley in March.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it was very special.
Speaker 1: That's special. Yeah, that's something that you kind of dream
Speaker 1: of as a sister, like being pregnant together, like having
Speaker 1: having babies together. I feel like that's such a normal
Speaker 1: process to think of, and to have that after so
Speaker 1: much time would have been a really special bond for
Speaker 1: the two of you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we were so lucky.
Speaker 3: We have experienced so much together, but then to experience
Speaker 3: pregnancies together was really special.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And he's here now, Freddie three weeks old, making
Speaker 1: some noise in the background.
Speaker 4: Yeah, hiccuffing.
Speaker 1: Is Goldie a good big sister?
Speaker 4: She is a good big sister. She loves him.
Speaker 3: She's hit three at the same time. So it was
Speaker 3: a bit of an interesting journey there. But with regards
Speaker 3: of being a sister, yeah, she's great.
Speaker 1: And what about any advice you would have for people
Speaker 1: going through infertility and keeping going after all that time?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, well, my advice is probably a bit controversial,
Speaker 3: but I think there's a lot of toxic positivity around
Speaker 3: infertility and trying for a baby, and I personally think
Speaker 3: that there's more strength in letting go than there is
Speaker 3: in continuing to keep killing yourself trying to have a baby.
Speaker 4: So I actually found peace in.
Speaker 3: Looking at what my life would look like without children
Speaker 3: and the positive, you know, life that I could lead
Speaker 3: with Kurt. It was my nightmare. I didn't the last
Speaker 3: thing I wanted was to you know, not have children.
Speaker 3: But I felt like that gave me some peace that
Speaker 3: if worst came to worse, I could still be happy.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's controversial at all. I think that
Speaker 1: that's actually a really wonderful take.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I just know a podcast about you know, people that
Speaker 3: chose to live their life child free, and I really
Speaker 3: just found that so helpful that along with have other
Speaker 3: interests in your life.
Speaker 4: It's so easy for it to just.
Speaker 3: Consume everything, and it does anyway, but there's got to
Speaker 3: be something else that you're putting your focus on as well.
Speaker 4: It's too hard to do otherwise.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's free. A good baby. Is he treating
Speaker 1: you well?
Speaker 4: He is?
Speaker 3: He hasn't really woken up yet, so I don't want
Speaker 3: to talk too soon, but he's eating and sleeping and
Speaker 3: pooling and doing all the things that you want your
Speaker 3: baby to do.
Speaker 4: So yeah, it's it's a dreams so far.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. It's
Speaker 1: really remarkable to hear about. You know, what a beautiful
Speaker 1: thing for your sister to do for you, and what
Speaker 1: a way to bond the two of you. So thank
Speaker 1: you so much for sharing your story. And I'm so
Speaker 1: happy that you know you've got your two babies, and
Speaker 1: you know, even after all of those hard years, you're
Speaker 1: able to still have your family.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're so lucky. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Diary of a Birth was hosted by me Kasenu lu Kitsch.
Speaker 1: If you like our show, don't forget to subscribe and rate.
Speaker 1: It goes a long way to allowing us to continue
Speaker 1: sharing your stories. This episode was produced by Ella Maitland
Speaker 1: and myself kasen You Luke, with audio production by Tina Mettalov.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm