1 00:00:05,646 --> 00:00:10,645 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma mea Podcast. 2 00:00:11,006 --> 00:00:14,286 Speaker 2: Hi, it's Cassanne Lukich here, host of Diary of a Birth, 3 00:00:14,566 --> 00:00:17,925 Speaker 2: and this summer we've curated your delivery room playlist to 4 00:00:17,966 --> 00:00:21,526 Speaker 2: bring you even more unmissable birth stories. This summer, we're 5 00:00:21,566 --> 00:00:24,286 Speaker 2: bringing you our favorite episodes of Diary of a Birth 6 00:00:24,526 --> 00:00:27,926 Speaker 2: right here in your feet. That's your holiday listening sorded 7 00:00:28,366 --> 00:00:30,806 Speaker 2: And if you're looking for more to listen to, every 8 00:00:30,846 --> 00:00:34,205 Speaker 2: Mum and mea podcast is curating your summer listening right 9 00:00:34,246 --> 00:00:38,565 Speaker 2: across our network. From pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews, 10 00:00:38,726 --> 00:00:39,885 Speaker 2: there's something for everyone. 11 00:00:40,126 --> 00:00:42,966 Speaker 1: Check out the link in the show notes. This episode 12 00:00:43,006 --> 00:00:47,926 Speaker 1: of Diary of a Birth contains discussions of infertility and miscarriage. 13 00:00:48,205 --> 00:00:56,325 Speaker 1: Please listen with caution. Hi. I'm Cassene Lukitch and this 14 00:00:56,446 --> 00:00:59,726 Speaker 1: is Diary of a Birth. I've been pretty candid about 15 00:00:59,726 --> 00:01:03,366 Speaker 1: my struggles with infertility with my first baby, but after 16 00:01:03,406 --> 00:01:07,926 Speaker 1: two years and IVF, we fortunate enough to conceive. But 17 00:01:07,965 --> 00:01:11,046 Speaker 1: there are many couples out there struggling for much longer, 18 00:01:11,606 --> 00:01:15,806 Speaker 1: and it takes an extreme emotional and physical toll. Your 19 00:01:15,846 --> 00:01:20,046 Speaker 1: life starts to work in cycles. Everything centers around it, 20 00:01:20,126 --> 00:01:23,446 Speaker 1: and there's nothing more frustrating than having to cancel a 21 00:01:23,526 --> 00:01:26,126 Speaker 1: transfer because something hasn't lined up. 22 00:01:26,406 --> 00:01:29,926 Speaker 3: The cycles were canceled, which is also a difficult experience 23 00:01:30,006 --> 00:01:32,606 Speaker 3: because you know, I would go to all the appointments 24 00:01:32,646 --> 00:01:34,686 Speaker 3: and the scans and have all the injections, and then 25 00:01:35,086 --> 00:01:37,366 Speaker 3: get to the transfer time and they'd say, sorry, it's 26 00:01:37,366 --> 00:01:38,686 Speaker 3: not thick enough, we have to cancel. 27 00:01:39,086 --> 00:01:42,926 Speaker 1: After so much disappointment, today's mum turned to sarrogacy and 28 00:01:43,006 --> 00:01:46,486 Speaker 1: after years of heartache, was finally able to hold her 29 00:01:46,526 --> 00:01:49,806 Speaker 1: baby in her arms. So let's meet today's mom. 30 00:01:50,326 --> 00:01:53,166 Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Kirsten. This is a diary of my surrogacy 31 00:01:53,246 --> 00:01:54,766 Speaker 3: birth with Spencer. 32 00:02:00,326 --> 00:02:04,686 Speaker 1: Chustin. First of all, your story has so much before, 33 00:02:06,286 --> 00:02:09,925 Speaker 1: and you wrote a book about it called This Is Infertility. 34 00:02:10,526 --> 00:02:12,886 Speaker 1: I guess what I really want to start with first 35 00:02:13,006 --> 00:02:18,085 Speaker 1: is a little bit about your struggles with infertility before 36 00:02:18,125 --> 00:02:19,925 Speaker 1: you turned to surrogacy. 37 00:02:20,446 --> 00:02:20,645 Speaker 4: Yeah. 38 00:02:20,805 --> 00:02:23,846 Speaker 3: So, as you mentioned, our Sun was born through to 39 00:02:23,886 --> 00:02:27,846 Speaker 3: stational surrogacy. So he was born in twenty nineteen in 40 00:02:28,166 --> 00:02:31,365 Speaker 3: Utah in the US. But this was after a six 41 00:02:31,486 --> 00:02:33,085 Speaker 3: year infertility journey. 42 00:02:33,726 --> 00:02:35,486 Speaker 4: So when my husband. 43 00:02:35,245 --> 00:02:38,325 Speaker 3: Ryan and I first tried to get pregnant, we thought 44 00:02:38,365 --> 00:02:40,925 Speaker 3: it actually would be quite easy. We were in our 45 00:02:40,965 --> 00:02:44,006 Speaker 3: early thirties. We had no fertility issues that I was 46 00:02:44,046 --> 00:02:46,766 Speaker 3: aware of then, and so we just expected it to 47 00:02:47,245 --> 00:02:50,645 Speaker 3: happen quite quickly. And it was after about nine months 48 00:02:50,685 --> 00:02:54,286 Speaker 3: of trying to get pregnant that I became really frustrated 49 00:02:54,405 --> 00:02:58,245 Speaker 3: and confused that I wasn't pregnant yet. So we went 50 00:02:58,286 --> 00:03:01,446 Speaker 3: and saw a fertility specialist just to get some of 51 00:03:01,446 --> 00:03:05,846 Speaker 3: the routine tests done. So Ryan had his spoom, I 52 00:03:05,886 --> 00:03:09,086 Speaker 3: had my egg count and quality checked and everything. 53 00:03:08,766 --> 00:03:09,925 Speaker 4: Came back normal. 54 00:03:10,766 --> 00:03:14,446 Speaker 3: However, through an ultrasound, the specialist picked up that I 55 00:03:14,486 --> 00:03:18,446 Speaker 3: had some polycystic ovaries, so to make sure that I 56 00:03:18,606 --> 00:03:24,166 Speaker 3: was ovulating regularly, she prescribed clomid. Three months of clomid later, 57 00:03:24,446 --> 00:03:28,166 Speaker 3: still no pregnancy. So we then tried UI. 58 00:03:27,965 --> 00:03:31,286 Speaker 4: Which is where they pop a cafeta up into. 59 00:03:31,125 --> 00:03:35,726 Speaker 3: The uterus with sperm tracking your cycle, and so I 60 00:03:35,726 --> 00:03:39,326 Speaker 3: did three rounds of aUI still no pregnancy, so we 61 00:03:39,406 --> 00:03:43,806 Speaker 3: then decided to move on to IVF. My first IVF 62 00:03:43,886 --> 00:03:48,126 Speaker 3: transfer failed, which is quite common for the first transfer. 63 00:03:49,046 --> 00:03:53,086 Speaker 3: With a second transfer, I had what's known as a 64 00:03:53,126 --> 00:03:57,966 Speaker 3: pregnancy of unknown location, which, as the name suggests, the 65 00:03:58,046 --> 00:04:01,326 Speaker 3: mbury had implanted somewhere in my body, but not in 66 00:04:01,366 --> 00:04:04,806 Speaker 3: the uterus, so it wasn't a Bible pregnancy and not 67 00:04:04,926 --> 00:04:07,326 Speaker 3: in the filopi tube, so it wasn't a topic pregnancy. 68 00:04:07,686 --> 00:04:10,726 Speaker 3: But it would have been dangerous for the pregnancy to continue. 69 00:04:11,526 --> 00:04:14,886 Speaker 3: So I had metatris eight, which is a chemotherapy agent 70 00:04:15,046 --> 00:04:19,686 Speaker 3: to end the pregnancy, which was a really difficult experience, 71 00:04:19,926 --> 00:04:22,446 Speaker 3: and at first we did think that we were pregnant. 72 00:04:22,486 --> 00:04:26,366 Speaker 3: It was the first positive pregnancy result we'd had, so 73 00:04:26,486 --> 00:04:31,166 Speaker 3: obviously was a difficult time. Given I had the Metatrix eight, 74 00:04:31,486 --> 00:04:33,966 Speaker 3: I needed to take three months off fertility treatment as 75 00:04:33,966 --> 00:04:35,285 Speaker 3: it needed time to work its. 76 00:04:35,086 --> 00:04:35,926 Speaker 4: Way out of my body. 77 00:04:36,885 --> 00:04:39,525 Speaker 3: Then for the next couple of ivy of transfers, my 78 00:04:39,606 --> 00:04:43,526 Speaker 3: cycles kept getting canceled. And the reason was I had 79 00:04:43,526 --> 00:04:48,246 Speaker 3: this thin endometrium lining and I had absolutely no idea 80 00:04:48,286 --> 00:04:51,765 Speaker 3: what the endometrium lining was and why it was important. 81 00:04:52,325 --> 00:04:55,645 Speaker 3: I started to research it and found that the lining 82 00:04:55,726 --> 00:05:00,166 Speaker 3: is actually crucial to falling pregnant and staying pregnant. For 83 00:05:00,206 --> 00:05:03,246 Speaker 3: a transfer. In Australia, the requirement is six millimeters or 84 00:05:03,246 --> 00:05:05,446 Speaker 3: more to go ahead with a transfer. In the USA 85 00:05:05,646 --> 00:05:09,806 Speaker 3: it's about eight milimeters, and healthy lining is considered between 86 00:05:09,806 --> 00:05:12,686 Speaker 3: ten to twelve milimeters, and mine was always in the fours. 87 00:05:13,366 --> 00:05:16,246 Speaker 3: So whenever it was in the fours, the cycles were canceled, 88 00:05:16,445 --> 00:05:19,845 Speaker 3: which is also a difficult experience because you know, I 89 00:05:19,846 --> 00:05:21,926 Speaker 3: would go to all the appointments and the scans and 90 00:05:21,966 --> 00:05:24,486 Speaker 3: have all the injections and then get to the transfer 91 00:05:24,606 --> 00:05:26,526 Speaker 3: time and they'd say, sorry, it's not thick enough, we 92 00:05:26,606 --> 00:05:30,126 Speaker 3: have to cancel boart missions. So that was really difficult 93 00:05:30,126 --> 00:05:33,246 Speaker 3: to go through. When it was in the fives the lining, 94 00:05:33,445 --> 00:05:35,965 Speaker 3: they were like, well, close enough is good enough, and 95 00:05:36,526 --> 00:05:39,206 Speaker 3: they would go ahead with the transfer and it would fail. 96 00:05:39,606 --> 00:05:42,205 Speaker 3: So I started to research myself and found out that 97 00:05:42,286 --> 00:05:45,206 Speaker 3: actually close enough is not good enough. The endometrium lining 98 00:05:45,286 --> 00:05:50,005 Speaker 3: is crucial, and a thick lining results in a successful 99 00:05:50,005 --> 00:05:54,005 Speaker 3: transfer pregnancy, but for a thin lining, the transfer success 100 00:05:54,086 --> 00:05:56,926 Speaker 3: rate is actually very low and the miscarriage rate is 101 00:05:57,005 --> 00:06:03,085 Speaker 3: very high. So when I raised it with my specialists, unfortunately, 102 00:06:03,366 --> 00:06:07,246 Speaker 3: she didn't really have any insights, just kept saying, well, 103 00:06:07,286 --> 00:06:09,686 Speaker 3: you know people do fall pregnant with thin lining, let's 104 00:06:09,765 --> 00:06:14,526 Speaker 3: keep trying. So not satisfied with that answer, we actually 105 00:06:14,606 --> 00:06:19,085 Speaker 3: changed to another IVF specialist, thank goodness, we did, and 106 00:06:19,565 --> 00:06:22,885 Speaker 3: it was actually that very first appointment that he said 107 00:06:22,885 --> 00:06:25,286 Speaker 3: to us, you know, fin lining is are rare, they're 108 00:06:25,286 --> 00:06:28,726 Speaker 3: often difficult to treat, and your best chance of having 109 00:06:28,726 --> 00:06:30,366 Speaker 3: a baby is through sarrogacy. 110 00:06:30,765 --> 00:06:32,126 Speaker 4: And that was sowarming. 111 00:06:32,966 --> 00:06:36,846 Speaker 1: I can't imagine. I've been through the IBF process myself, 112 00:06:37,366 --> 00:06:42,205 Speaker 1: so I really empathize with that feeling of frustration, the miscycles, 113 00:06:42,286 --> 00:06:48,126 Speaker 1: the having to wait, the cancelations, and this just constant 114 00:06:48,286 --> 00:06:53,445 Speaker 1: disappointment and it really is one of the most challenging times, 115 00:06:53,565 --> 00:06:56,525 Speaker 1: not only physically on your body, but mentally and as 116 00:06:56,565 --> 00:07:00,445 Speaker 1: a couple, and I really truly empathize with that process. 117 00:07:01,126 --> 00:07:05,766 Speaker 1: We've decided on sarrogacy and we've had a surrogate on 118 00:07:05,806 --> 00:07:10,166 Speaker 1: our show before, but they were based in Australia. You 119 00:07:10,566 --> 00:07:14,246 Speaker 1: chose a surrogate in the US. Can you tell us 120 00:07:14,246 --> 00:07:17,766 Speaker 1: about choosing a gestational surrogate in the US. 121 00:07:18,126 --> 00:07:22,046 Speaker 3: Yes, So in Australia the surrogacy process obviously not as 122 00:07:22,366 --> 00:07:26,366 Speaker 3: common and actually ninety two percent of people do international 123 00:07:26,406 --> 00:07:30,566 Speaker 3: surrogacy rather than domestic. So with the US it is 124 00:07:30,686 --> 00:07:36,766 Speaker 3: quite a smooth, easy process. They have surrogacy agencies which 125 00:07:36,806 --> 00:07:37,965 Speaker 3: we don't have in Australia. 126 00:07:38,126 --> 00:07:39,566 Speaker 4: So we were matched. 127 00:07:39,406 --> 00:07:42,246 Speaker 3: Quite quickly with the surrogate, actually only took a couple 128 00:07:42,326 --> 00:07:46,286 Speaker 3: of weeks, whereas in Australia, because there's no agencies, it's 129 00:07:46,286 --> 00:07:51,726 Speaker 3: illegal to advertise and actually surrogacy in some states international surrogacy, 130 00:07:51,806 --> 00:07:56,486 Speaker 3: commercial surrogacy is illegal. And so we just found the 131 00:07:56,526 --> 00:08:01,126 Speaker 3: process in America just, you know, so smooth and easier, 132 00:08:01,126 --> 00:08:04,126 Speaker 3: and we'd already been through so much prior to that, 133 00:08:04,566 --> 00:08:07,366 Speaker 3: so we suppose you didn't want to waste any more 134 00:08:07,406 --> 00:08:09,006 Speaker 3: time as well, Like by the time we got to 135 00:08:09,046 --> 00:08:14,046 Speaker 3: Saragxy it had been four years of fertility treatment and trying, 136 00:08:14,246 --> 00:08:18,406 Speaker 3: and so therefore, you know, America was a really smart 137 00:08:18,406 --> 00:08:19,206 Speaker 3: option for us. 138 00:08:19,486 --> 00:08:22,246 Speaker 1: Did you fly over there or was this all done remotely? 139 00:08:22,846 --> 00:08:27,446 Speaker 3: Well, we actually started saragcy the first time in Canada, 140 00:08:27,526 --> 00:08:33,646 Speaker 3: So Canada is altruistic surrogacy, not commercial surrogacy. With Canada, 141 00:08:33,686 --> 00:08:36,326 Speaker 3: because it is altruistic like Australia, it can be a 142 00:08:36,326 --> 00:08:37,006 Speaker 3: longer process. 143 00:08:37,046 --> 00:08:39,646 Speaker 4: There are more intended parents than there are surrogates. 144 00:08:39,926 --> 00:08:42,526 Speaker 3: We were fortunate we actually matched within a few weeks 145 00:08:42,726 --> 00:08:44,445 Speaker 3: with the surrogate, but it can take one to two 146 00:08:44,526 --> 00:08:48,846 Speaker 3: years in Canada, and we transported across our embryos from 147 00:08:48,886 --> 00:08:52,565 Speaker 3: Melbourne to Toronto for the surrogacy, and we did fly 148 00:08:52,646 --> 00:08:55,646 Speaker 3: over for the first transfer, but we actually had a 149 00:08:55,766 --> 00:08:59,166 Speaker 3: very negative upsetting experience in Toronto. 150 00:08:59,526 --> 00:09:00,686 Speaker 4: So flew over. 151 00:09:00,766 --> 00:09:04,766 Speaker 3: We'd matched with this beautiful lady, Julie, and we're there 152 00:09:04,766 --> 00:09:07,165 Speaker 3: on the transfer day. We're all sitting in the waiting 153 00:09:07,246 --> 00:09:10,565 Speaker 3: room and the transfer time came and went. We were 154 00:09:10,566 --> 00:09:13,526 Speaker 3: so confused what was happening and we kept going up. 155 00:09:13,405 --> 00:09:15,086 Speaker 4: To the reception. They said, oh, so someone will be 156 00:09:15,126 --> 00:09:15,805 Speaker 4: with you shortly. 157 00:09:16,606 --> 00:09:19,006 Speaker 3: Eventually a next came out and said, you know, the 158 00:09:19,045 --> 00:09:21,405 Speaker 3: specialists would like to see you and Ryan and Julie 159 00:09:21,526 --> 00:09:25,406 Speaker 3: in his office have a private chat. Always no, that's 160 00:09:25,446 --> 00:09:29,126 Speaker 3: never a good sign. Went into his office and you know, 161 00:09:29,165 --> 00:09:30,886 Speaker 3: he came in. He had this like grave look on 162 00:09:30,926 --> 00:09:33,126 Speaker 3: his face, sat behind his desk and he said, I 163 00:09:33,165 --> 00:09:35,926 Speaker 3: am so sorry, but the container of embryos that you 164 00:09:36,006 --> 00:09:41,806 Speaker 3: transported across from Australia is empty. So he said, you know, 165 00:09:41,846 --> 00:09:44,006 Speaker 3: we went to open the container about half an hour 166 00:09:44,045 --> 00:09:45,886 Speaker 3: ago to start the thaw process and there were no 167 00:09:45,966 --> 00:09:52,086 Speaker 3: embryos inside, and we were completely shocked and devastated. We 168 00:09:52,126 --> 00:09:55,646 Speaker 3: still don't know actually what happened, but transporting embryos is 169 00:09:55,686 --> 00:10:01,126 Speaker 3: a very standard common practice. People transport eggs, embryos spam 170 00:10:01,165 --> 00:10:04,446 Speaker 3: every week where they're changing clinics or doing surrogacy, and 171 00:10:04,486 --> 00:10:07,046 Speaker 3: we found out that what happened to us was extremely rare, 172 00:10:07,405 --> 00:10:08,926 Speaker 3: less than one percent chance of happening. 173 00:10:08,926 --> 00:10:12,366 Speaker 4: And we spoke to lawyers in Canada and in Melbourne. 174 00:10:12,366 --> 00:10:14,446 Speaker 3: No one had even heard of this happening before, so 175 00:10:15,366 --> 00:10:19,766 Speaker 3: it was really devastating and at the time, I thought, 176 00:10:20,405 --> 00:10:22,126 Speaker 3: this is the Universe's way of saying we're not meant 177 00:10:22,126 --> 00:10:24,166 Speaker 3: to be parents. Like this was not a scenario I 178 00:10:24,246 --> 00:10:28,926 Speaker 3: ever dreamed that would be possible. So that was our 179 00:10:28,926 --> 00:10:32,325 Speaker 3: initial sarrogacy experience, and believe it or not, we did 180 00:10:32,366 --> 00:10:36,325 Speaker 3: actually continue to pursue surrogacy in Canada, so we transported 181 00:10:36,366 --> 00:10:40,966 Speaker 3: across more embryos through a different company and we did 182 00:10:41,006 --> 00:10:44,766 Speaker 3: three transfers in Canada or with genetically tested embryos, and 183 00:10:44,806 --> 00:10:48,286 Speaker 3: all three transfers failed. We have absolutely no idea why 184 00:10:48,405 --> 00:10:51,685 Speaker 3: there were no obvious complications with our sarrogate or anything. 185 00:10:52,366 --> 00:10:55,526 Speaker 3: But after that experience, that was when we decided to 186 00:10:56,165 --> 00:10:57,646 Speaker 3: change to America. 187 00:10:57,726 --> 00:11:00,086 Speaker 1: How many embryos did you have at this point, did 188 00:11:00,086 --> 00:11:02,285 Speaker 1: you have to go through multiple retrievals? 189 00:11:02,606 --> 00:11:06,646 Speaker 3: Yes, so we had we transported across two embryo. They 190 00:11:06,726 --> 00:11:09,325 Speaker 3: were our final two at that point. So that was 191 00:11:09,366 --> 00:11:13,366 Speaker 3: the other really upsetting part is in the back of 192 00:11:13,366 --> 00:11:15,445 Speaker 3: my mind, I was like, what if we don't get 193 00:11:15,486 --> 00:11:18,806 Speaker 3: any more embryos, But we did manage to get some more. 194 00:11:18,846 --> 00:11:21,246 Speaker 3: So when we went back to got back to Australia, 195 00:11:21,326 --> 00:11:24,646 Speaker 3: did another egg collection that managed to create some more embryos. 196 00:11:24,726 --> 00:11:29,286 Speaker 1: Thank goodness, you've now transported your embryos across. Then another 197 00:11:29,285 --> 00:11:33,165 Speaker 1: egg collection moved to the States, and you described that 198 00:11:33,206 --> 00:11:37,326 Speaker 1: process as being quite easy. What made it so easy. 199 00:11:37,446 --> 00:11:40,806 Speaker 3: We went through the Utah Fertility Center who were amazing. 200 00:11:41,206 --> 00:11:45,206 Speaker 3: So the very first meeting that we had with them, 201 00:11:45,686 --> 00:11:48,686 Speaker 3: they were so invested in helping us have a baby. 202 00:11:48,726 --> 00:11:53,246 Speaker 3: They really empathized with everything we've been to and they 203 00:11:53,246 --> 00:11:55,246 Speaker 3: didn't rush us at all. It felt like quite a 204 00:11:55,285 --> 00:11:59,246 Speaker 3: different patient experience to Australia, to be honest. So that 205 00:11:59,366 --> 00:12:01,886 Speaker 3: was the first part of it. We had really good 206 00:12:02,366 --> 00:12:06,646 Speaker 3: patient care. We then went through a boutique surrogacy agency 207 00:12:06,806 --> 00:12:11,886 Speaker 3: called Rocky Mountain who matched us with our surrogate, and 208 00:12:12,246 --> 00:12:14,726 Speaker 3: the first skype that we had with our surrogate, Leah 209 00:12:14,766 --> 00:12:17,766 Speaker 3: and her husband Josh, we just had an instant rapport 210 00:12:17,766 --> 00:12:20,286 Speaker 3: and connection with them, and it felt like we'd known 211 00:12:20,326 --> 00:12:23,766 Speaker 3: each other forever and we just had a really good 212 00:12:23,806 --> 00:12:27,246 Speaker 3: instinct and we just knew that Leah was the person 213 00:12:27,285 --> 00:12:31,886 Speaker 3: who wanted to carry our baby. So having Leah, having 214 00:12:32,165 --> 00:12:38,046 Speaker 3: the clinic, the agency, just everything felt very smooth and easy, 215 00:12:38,045 --> 00:12:41,086 Speaker 3: and everyone just seems so invested in helping us finally 216 00:12:41,126 --> 00:12:41,766 Speaker 3: have a baby. 217 00:12:42,086 --> 00:12:45,446 Speaker 1: I know that you didn't have a successful first transfer 218 00:12:45,646 --> 00:12:49,926 Speaker 1: with Leah. You did actually have a miscarriage. Can you 219 00:12:49,926 --> 00:12:50,805 Speaker 1: tell us about that? 220 00:12:51,246 --> 00:12:54,806 Speaker 3: Yes, So our first transfer failed and it was on 221 00:12:54,886 --> 00:12:59,166 Speaker 3: our second transfer that we did for pregnant and we 222 00:12:59,246 --> 00:13:01,405 Speaker 3: had a scan at seven and a half weeks and 223 00:13:01,686 --> 00:13:05,805 Speaker 3: everything was great. The baby's heartbeat was strong, it was 224 00:13:05,846 --> 00:13:10,446 Speaker 3: measuring well. Lea's hormone levels were good. So we thought, oh, 225 00:13:10,526 --> 00:13:13,366 Speaker 3: finally this is it, We finally have our baby. Everything 226 00:13:13,646 --> 00:13:16,006 Speaker 3: was looking great, was the furthest whatever got to at 227 00:13:16,006 --> 00:13:19,766 Speaker 3: this point. The next scan was at nine weeks, and 228 00:13:20,326 --> 00:13:23,486 Speaker 3: given the time difference, it was three am in Utah. 229 00:13:24,126 --> 00:13:27,486 Speaker 3: So we decided that Josh would video the scam and 230 00:13:27,566 --> 00:13:30,086 Speaker 3: take some photos and when we'd wake up, we would 231 00:13:30,126 --> 00:13:30,726 Speaker 3: give them a call. 232 00:13:31,326 --> 00:13:32,086 Speaker 4: I woke up. 233 00:13:32,006 --> 00:13:35,526 Speaker 3: At six am, and I checked my phone and there 234 00:13:35,526 --> 00:13:39,326 Speaker 3: were no messages. And Leah is an excellent communicator, so 235 00:13:39,326 --> 00:13:42,246 Speaker 3: I expected just to wake up to multiple. 236 00:13:41,806 --> 00:13:46,326 Speaker 4: Messages and videos. So I just knew that something was wrong. 237 00:13:46,766 --> 00:13:49,886 Speaker 3: And Ram was fast asleep, but his phone was on 238 00:13:49,926 --> 00:13:53,486 Speaker 3: the bedside table and I saw a WhatsApp message from 239 00:13:53,566 --> 00:13:55,846 Speaker 3: Lea's husband, Josh, and all it said is I'm so 240 00:13:55,886 --> 00:14:01,086 Speaker 3: sorry we've lost the baby. So obviously that was devastating. 241 00:14:01,566 --> 00:14:06,006 Speaker 3: It was also really challenging with international serrogacy because in 242 00:14:06,006 --> 00:14:08,606 Speaker 3: that moment, all we wanted to do was be together, 243 00:14:08,806 --> 00:14:12,766 Speaker 3: grieve together, hug each other, and we couldn't. And we 244 00:14:12,886 --> 00:14:16,646 Speaker 3: learned that what had happened was a sub chronic heemotoma 245 00:14:16,726 --> 00:14:18,846 Speaker 3: had caused a miscarriage, so it had cut off supply 246 00:14:19,006 --> 00:14:22,286 Speaker 3: from the BLASCENTA to the baby. And sub chronic chemotoma 247 00:14:22,326 --> 00:14:25,726 Speaker 3: is quite common in pregnancy, not that common to cause 248 00:14:25,806 --> 00:14:28,046 Speaker 3: miscarriage though, and they're one of those things they can't 249 00:14:28,046 --> 00:14:31,326 Speaker 3: be prevented, they can't be treated. So once again I 250 00:14:31,366 --> 00:14:34,006 Speaker 3: was thinking, Oh, this is the Universe's ways saying we're 251 00:14:34,006 --> 00:14:36,966 Speaker 3: not meant to be parents. You know, something rare has 252 00:14:37,006 --> 00:14:41,126 Speaker 3: happened again, So it again was a really difficult time 253 00:14:41,166 --> 00:14:42,086 Speaker 3: for us to go through. 254 00:14:42,446 --> 00:14:46,166 Speaker 1: You have been through a lot, and I remember with 255 00:14:46,286 --> 00:14:49,966 Speaker 1: my own journey, it was like, what's wrong with me? 256 00:14:50,286 --> 00:14:53,006 Speaker 1: This is the universe telling me that I'm not supposed 257 00:14:53,046 --> 00:14:57,646 Speaker 1: to be a mother and it is truly gut wrenching 258 00:14:58,126 --> 00:15:01,606 Speaker 1: to feel that way. What gave you the strength to 259 00:15:02,246 --> 00:15:02,926 Speaker 1: keep going? 260 00:15:03,486 --> 00:15:07,686 Speaker 3: So I started to see a counselor who is also 261 00:15:07,686 --> 00:15:11,886 Speaker 3: a hypnotherapist, so she definitely helped us during that really 262 00:15:11,886 --> 00:15:16,846 Speaker 3: difficult time. But really it was my husband and also 263 00:15:17,166 --> 00:15:21,206 Speaker 3: a surrogate, Leah, who convinced me because they both sort 264 00:15:21,206 --> 00:15:23,605 Speaker 3: of took the positive from it that we did for pregnant, 265 00:15:24,446 --> 00:15:26,686 Speaker 3: that what had caused the miscarriage was something so rare 266 00:15:26,726 --> 00:15:30,206 Speaker 3: that could happen to anyone, wasn't to do with us specifically, 267 00:15:31,006 --> 00:15:34,246 Speaker 3: and there was one transfer left in the contract, so 268 00:15:34,286 --> 00:15:37,726 Speaker 3: one final track, so Leah was determined to help us 269 00:15:37,766 --> 00:15:41,486 Speaker 3: have a family. Ryan really wanted us to. 270 00:15:40,926 --> 00:15:42,326 Speaker 4: Try again one final time. 271 00:15:42,526 --> 00:15:46,446 Speaker 3: So I went in to the final transfer feeling a 272 00:15:46,486 --> 00:15:48,886 Speaker 3: bit negative to be honest, and thinking this is not 273 00:15:48,886 --> 00:15:50,766 Speaker 3: gonna work, but fine, I'll just do it. 274 00:15:50,766 --> 00:15:51,806 Speaker 4: We've got nothing to lose. 275 00:15:52,446 --> 00:15:57,486 Speaker 3: They both went in sort of cautiously optimistic, and yeah, 276 00:15:57,726 --> 00:16:01,126 Speaker 3: fortunately they were right and we did our final transfer 277 00:16:01,246 --> 00:16:04,966 Speaker 3: and nine months later Spencer was born. Coming up, she 278 00:16:05,046 --> 00:16:08,726 Speaker 3: absolutely did risk her life to help another family have 279 00:16:08,926 --> 00:16:09,406 Speaker 3: a child. 280 00:16:09,566 --> 00:16:13,366 Speaker 4: So, I mean, I just think that surrogates are complete angels, 281 00:16:13,406 --> 00:16:15,526 Speaker 4: Like they're just absolutely amazing. 282 00:16:15,606 --> 00:16:17,446 Speaker 3: If it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have our son, 283 00:16:17,486 --> 00:16:18,726 Speaker 3: we wouldn't have a family. 284 00:16:18,846 --> 00:16:20,366 Speaker 4: So no, we owe her everything. 285 00:16:28,446 --> 00:16:30,526 Speaker 1: Okay, so you're going to be apprehensive in those first 286 00:16:30,566 --> 00:16:33,126 Speaker 1: couple of weeks. You get to that kind of twelve 287 00:16:33,126 --> 00:16:36,566 Speaker 1: week mark, which is our mark where you go, Okay, 288 00:16:36,606 --> 00:16:38,286 Speaker 1: we're kind of in the safe. So iwhere through the 289 00:16:38,286 --> 00:16:41,966 Speaker 1: first trimester. What did it feel like for you and 290 00:16:42,006 --> 00:16:45,206 Speaker 1: your partner and Leah in the States, Like you're almost 291 00:16:45,246 --> 00:16:48,446 Speaker 1: like a quad here. What was that moment of getting 292 00:16:48,526 --> 00:16:50,126 Speaker 1: through that first trimester? 293 00:16:50,686 --> 00:16:54,566 Speaker 3: Look, it was amazing, But I'll be honest, I felt 294 00:16:54,606 --> 00:16:59,966 Speaker 3: apprehensive until Spencer was born. So even though I definitely 295 00:16:59,966 --> 00:17:02,006 Speaker 3: felt better at twelve weeks, and I felt better again 296 00:17:02,046 --> 00:17:04,606 Speaker 3: at twenty weeks, and I felt better again at thirty weeks, 297 00:17:04,646 --> 00:17:07,406 Speaker 3: with every scan and further and further as we've progressed, 298 00:17:07,926 --> 00:17:12,806 Speaker 3: the anxiety started to lower until Spencer was actually born 299 00:17:13,046 --> 00:17:16,446 Speaker 3: and held him in my arms. I didn't feel one 300 00:17:16,486 --> 00:17:19,846 Speaker 3: hundred percent joy, to be honest, which I think a 301 00:17:19,926 --> 00:17:24,046 Speaker 3: lot of people experiencing infertility can relate to, especially if 302 00:17:24,046 --> 00:17:27,046 Speaker 3: you've had pregnancy losses in the past. So I think 303 00:17:27,126 --> 00:17:29,486 Speaker 3: if pregnancy is coming easy and you've never had a 304 00:17:29,486 --> 00:17:32,686 Speaker 3: pregnancy loss, then probably from that very first pregnancy test, 305 00:17:32,766 --> 00:17:36,206 Speaker 3: you're feeling excited and happy for the whole way through. 306 00:17:36,286 --> 00:17:38,766 Speaker 3: But that was not my experience, unfortunately. 307 00:17:38,926 --> 00:17:41,566 Speaker 1: When did you end up flying over to the US. 308 00:17:41,246 --> 00:17:42,966 Speaker 4: Two weeks before Spencer was born? 309 00:17:43,326 --> 00:17:46,126 Speaker 1: Okay? And was it a planned cesarean? Was it a 310 00:17:46,446 --> 00:17:47,286 Speaker 1: vaginal birth? 311 00:17:47,526 --> 00:17:48,246 Speaker 4: Vaginal birth? 312 00:17:48,446 --> 00:17:52,126 Speaker 1: Okay? So she went into spontaneous labor I imagine. 313 00:17:51,766 --> 00:17:53,646 Speaker 4: Yes, so at thirty nine weeks. 314 00:17:53,726 --> 00:17:58,086 Speaker 1: So you were basically there in Utah waiting for her 315 00:17:58,126 --> 00:18:00,126 Speaker 1: to go into labor. I mean, it must have been 316 00:18:00,206 --> 00:18:02,246 Speaker 1: nice to spend some time together phase to phase. 317 00:18:02,846 --> 00:18:05,206 Speaker 3: It was, And we actually lived with Lea and her 318 00:18:05,246 --> 00:18:08,246 Speaker 3: Husban and Josh and they're two boys for five weeks, 319 00:18:08,246 --> 00:18:10,646 Speaker 3: so two weeks before Spencer was born and the three 320 00:18:10,686 --> 00:18:12,966 Speaker 3: weeks after he was born, so we were all together 321 00:18:13,006 --> 00:18:15,806 Speaker 3: in the same house and it was summertime over there. 322 00:18:16,126 --> 00:18:18,246 Speaker 3: Spencer was born the day after fourth of July. Fourth 323 00:18:18,286 --> 00:18:20,566 Speaker 3: of July is a big holiday there, so it was 324 00:18:20,606 --> 00:18:23,446 Speaker 3: actually a really lovely and fun time together. 325 00:18:23,766 --> 00:18:26,526 Speaker 1: I'm imagining that you were with her in the birth 326 00:18:26,526 --> 00:18:31,326 Speaker 1: suite when Spencer was born. How was her labor and 327 00:18:31,646 --> 00:18:33,166 Speaker 1: what was that experience like for you? 328 00:18:33,566 --> 00:18:38,006 Speaker 3: Yes, so we did have adjoining rooms at the hospital, and. 329 00:18:37,886 --> 00:18:42,606 Speaker 4: Her labor was pretty good. Apparently wasn't too long. 330 00:18:42,926 --> 00:18:45,326 Speaker 3: Leah had been a sorry before as well, I should 331 00:18:45,366 --> 00:18:48,406 Speaker 3: mention for a couple from Spain. So this was her 332 00:18:48,446 --> 00:18:51,326 Speaker 3: fourth delivery, so her two boys and then a previous 333 00:18:51,366 --> 00:18:56,806 Speaker 3: surry get baby. And when Spencer was born, yeah, obviously 334 00:18:57,246 --> 00:18:58,326 Speaker 3: we're all crying a lot. 335 00:18:58,486 --> 00:19:00,126 Speaker 4: My mum was in the room as well. 336 00:19:00,286 --> 00:19:04,606 Speaker 3: She flew over with us and I just remember our 337 00:19:04,646 --> 00:19:07,526 Speaker 3: obstric get Spencer out and he was like, do. 338 00:19:07,486 --> 00:19:11,246 Speaker 4: You want to hold him? I was like yes. We 339 00:19:11,406 --> 00:19:12,806 Speaker 4: just walk over and crying. 340 00:19:12,886 --> 00:19:15,646 Speaker 3: And so I had the first skin on skin contact, 341 00:19:15,646 --> 00:19:16,966 Speaker 3: which was absolutely beautiful. 342 00:19:17,486 --> 00:19:18,686 Speaker 4: Ryan cut the cord. 343 00:19:19,286 --> 00:19:21,806 Speaker 3: Leah had some skin on skin contact, and yes, it 344 00:19:21,886 --> 00:19:24,646 Speaker 3: was just a very emotional, beautiful moment. 345 00:19:24,966 --> 00:19:27,606 Speaker 4: We were hugging, we were all saying I love you 346 00:19:27,646 --> 00:19:30,046 Speaker 4: to each other. It was a really beautiful time. 347 00:19:30,566 --> 00:19:34,326 Speaker 1: You obviously spent some time with Leon and their family, 348 00:19:34,446 --> 00:19:38,526 Speaker 1: and you've got this beautiful new little baby. When did 349 00:19:38,566 --> 00:19:41,486 Speaker 1: that finally all kick in and you realized that you 350 00:19:41,566 --> 00:19:44,246 Speaker 1: were a mother after all this time? 351 00:19:44,686 --> 00:19:47,966 Speaker 3: Yes, the first the first few minutes of holding him, 352 00:19:47,966 --> 00:19:48,966 Speaker 3: it suddenly felt real. 353 00:19:49,166 --> 00:19:52,086 Speaker 4: So yeah, such a beautiful emotional time. 354 00:19:52,326 --> 00:19:55,686 Speaker 3: And again all living together was actually really special as well. 355 00:19:55,806 --> 00:19:58,486 Speaker 3: And you know, by this point, Leah and Josh rold 356 00:19:58,486 --> 00:20:01,286 Speaker 3: hands of being parents, so they were able to show. 357 00:20:01,166 --> 00:20:04,006 Speaker 4: Us a few things, a few tips and tricks which 358 00:20:04,086 --> 00:20:06,366 Speaker 4: was very helpful. This is how you put a n nepion, 359 00:20:06,766 --> 00:20:08,726 Speaker 4: this is how you do a bath, all. 360 00:20:08,606 --> 00:20:11,286 Speaker 3: Those things that you read in the books and listen 361 00:20:11,366 --> 00:20:13,526 Speaker 3: to on the podcast before you're a parent, but when 362 00:20:13,526 --> 00:20:15,926 Speaker 3: it actually comes to the time, you have no idea 363 00:20:15,966 --> 00:20:16,406 Speaker 3: what you're doing. 364 00:20:16,446 --> 00:20:17,326 Speaker 4: At least I didn't know. 365 00:20:17,806 --> 00:20:21,486 Speaker 3: So that was a really lovely experience as well, doing 366 00:20:21,526 --> 00:20:25,126 Speaker 3: all that together. And at three weeks we then flew 367 00:20:25,526 --> 00:20:29,206 Speaker 3: back to Australia, so that also was very emotional saying 368 00:20:29,246 --> 00:20:30,686 Speaker 3: goodbye to Leah and Josh. 369 00:20:31,046 --> 00:20:33,926 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can mention, and you know, you had almost 370 00:20:33,966 --> 00:20:38,646 Speaker 1: become this blended family at this point after spending three 371 00:20:38,686 --> 00:20:42,366 Speaker 1: weeks together, and Leah is obviously still recovering from birth. 372 00:20:43,046 --> 00:20:45,006 Speaker 1: I'm not going to ask you to speak for her, 373 00:20:45,166 --> 00:20:48,526 Speaker 1: but I can imagine that sort of giving over a 374 00:20:48,566 --> 00:20:52,806 Speaker 1: baby while you're having those post hormonal things can be 375 00:20:52,886 --> 00:20:56,646 Speaker 1: quite challenging, especially if you're living with them, as she'd 376 00:20:56,646 --> 00:20:59,566 Speaker 1: done this before. Was that something that she was kind 377 00:20:59,566 --> 00:21:02,526 Speaker 1: of quite comfortable with? Were you comfortable with it? 378 00:21:03,006 --> 00:21:03,246 Speaker 4: Yeah? 379 00:21:03,326 --> 00:21:05,966 Speaker 3: I think it was something she was comfortable with. She 380 00:21:06,726 --> 00:21:10,006 Speaker 3: had mentioned that with the couple from Spain that she'd 381 00:21:10,046 --> 00:21:12,846 Speaker 3: had the Suraga babyfore, that when it came time to 382 00:21:12,886 --> 00:21:15,725 Speaker 3: say goodbye, she actually felt more emotional saying goodbye to 383 00:21:15,846 --> 00:21:19,126 Speaker 3: the parents rather than the baby, because you know, that's 384 00:21:19,126 --> 00:21:21,286 Speaker 3: who she knew, that's who she'd spent a lot of 385 00:21:21,326 --> 00:21:23,725 Speaker 3: time with, and so I think that was true with 386 00:21:23,806 --> 00:21:27,726 Speaker 3: us as well. And the night before we did fly out, though, 387 00:21:28,206 --> 00:21:33,286 Speaker 3: Leah had Spencer for the night, so he slept in 388 00:21:33,326 --> 00:21:35,686 Speaker 3: her bed for the night and it was, you know, 389 00:21:35,806 --> 00:21:37,966 Speaker 3: one way to let us have a really good night's 390 00:21:37,966 --> 00:21:41,086 Speaker 3: sleep before jumping on a twenty hour international flight with 391 00:21:41,126 --> 00:21:41,726 Speaker 3: the newborns. 392 00:21:41,846 --> 00:21:43,206 Speaker 4: That was very thoughtful. 393 00:21:43,806 --> 00:21:46,686 Speaker 3: But of course another part of it was her spending 394 00:21:47,046 --> 00:21:49,606 Speaker 3: that quality time with Spencer, and I think it was 395 00:21:49,686 --> 00:21:53,126 Speaker 3: also her way of saying goodbye, which was important. But 396 00:21:53,246 --> 00:21:56,046 Speaker 3: I will add that we have obviously kept in contact. 397 00:21:56,166 --> 00:22:00,086 Speaker 3: We have such a close relationship, and we moved to 398 00:22:00,126 --> 00:22:02,286 Speaker 3: the US my husband's work a couple of years ago, 399 00:22:02,686 --> 00:22:05,246 Speaker 3: and we moved back last year. And when we were 400 00:22:05,286 --> 00:22:08,006 Speaker 3: living in the US, we did actually catch up with 401 00:22:08,126 --> 00:22:10,166 Speaker 3: Leara and Josh a few times, so we spent some 402 00:22:10,246 --> 00:22:12,726 Speaker 3: time at their house. Then Leah came and spent a 403 00:22:12,726 --> 00:22:15,446 Speaker 3: few weeks with us. We were in North Carolina at 404 00:22:15,446 --> 00:22:18,766 Speaker 3: the time, and so we actually saw each other three 405 00:22:18,806 --> 00:22:21,686 Speaker 3: times in that time, face to face, and then she 406 00:22:21,766 --> 00:22:25,206 Speaker 3: kind of got to meet Spencer again because you know, 407 00:22:25,246 --> 00:22:27,966 Speaker 3: she'd say goodbye to a three week newborn and then 408 00:22:28,166 --> 00:22:31,446 Speaker 3: when we came back to the US, he was three 409 00:22:31,486 --> 00:22:31,966 Speaker 3: and a half. 410 00:22:32,086 --> 00:22:35,486 Speaker 4: So that was a really special experience for her. 411 00:22:35,526 --> 00:22:39,006 Speaker 3: And it's interesting because I mean, we'd obviously kept in 412 00:22:39,046 --> 00:22:43,086 Speaker 3: contact and done video skypes and everything, but you know, 413 00:22:43,206 --> 00:22:46,406 Speaker 3: within five minutes light Liah and Spencer, they just were 414 00:22:46,446 --> 00:22:49,726 Speaker 3: like the best of friends and so comfortable with each other, 415 00:22:49,806 --> 00:22:51,406 Speaker 3: and it's like they'd known each. 416 00:22:51,246 --> 00:22:54,046 Speaker 4: Other for years as well, So it was actually really special. 417 00:22:54,446 --> 00:22:57,206 Speaker 1: I just wanted to quickly sort of move back into 418 00:22:57,406 --> 00:23:01,486 Speaker 1: Leah's pregnancy. You mentioned your article about her having pre 419 00:23:01,606 --> 00:23:06,726 Speaker 1: clampsia throughout the pregnancy. Yes, post proclampsia, post part preclampsy. Yes, 420 00:23:07,086 --> 00:23:11,246 Speaker 1: So while you're living with her and she's going through this, like, 421 00:23:11,286 --> 00:23:12,646 Speaker 1: how do you respond to that? 422 00:23:13,126 --> 00:23:18,926 Speaker 3: So she was fine during the pregnancy. At the birth, 423 00:23:19,286 --> 00:23:22,606 Speaker 3: she did hemorrhage and lose about a leader of blood. 424 00:23:23,486 --> 00:23:27,166 Speaker 3: They were prepared for that because that had happened previously. 425 00:23:27,326 --> 00:23:31,366 Speaker 3: So the obsetrician was amazing and they were able to 426 00:23:31,406 --> 00:23:35,606 Speaker 3: treat her straight away. Was confronting at the time because 427 00:23:36,446 --> 00:23:40,846 Speaker 3: all of a sudden a team or emergency team were 428 00:23:40,846 --> 00:23:41,326 Speaker 3: in the room. 429 00:23:41,366 --> 00:23:43,726 Speaker 4: We were kind of shuffled out of the room. 430 00:23:44,366 --> 00:23:47,766 Speaker 3: However, again they were prepared for it, so she was fine. 431 00:23:48,366 --> 00:23:51,406 Speaker 3: And then her previous pregnancy as well, she'd had this 432 00:23:51,606 --> 00:23:56,486 Speaker 3: post part and proclampsia where her blood pressure would drop 433 00:23:56,646 --> 00:23:59,966 Speaker 3: during the pregnancy. Her previous prenanc she had fainted like 434 00:24:00,046 --> 00:24:03,286 Speaker 3: blacked out during it, but again because that had happened previously, 435 00:24:03,326 --> 00:24:07,526 Speaker 3: they were quite prepared. So she was on medication to 436 00:24:07,566 --> 00:24:13,086 Speaker 3: help manage that, and she was having daily checks as 437 00:24:13,086 --> 00:24:17,526 Speaker 3: well at the hospital after the birth, and so she 438 00:24:17,606 --> 00:24:18,606 Speaker 3: was kind of on top of it. 439 00:24:18,766 --> 00:24:21,766 Speaker 4: Also, she managed it amazing. 440 00:24:21,846 --> 00:24:24,526 Speaker 1: Actually, you have this really beautiful line of that she 441 00:24:24,726 --> 00:24:26,886 Speaker 1: risked her life to give us Spencer. 442 00:24:27,366 --> 00:24:33,846 Speaker 3: Yes, because hemorrhaging and postpund and proclamcy are those dangerous conditions. 443 00:24:33,886 --> 00:24:38,326 Speaker 3: So she absolutely did risk her life to help another 444 00:24:38,366 --> 00:24:41,086 Speaker 3: family have a child. So, I mean, I just think 445 00:24:41,126 --> 00:24:45,726 Speaker 3: that surrogates are complete angels, Like they're just absolutely amazing. 446 00:24:45,806 --> 00:24:47,646 Speaker 3: If it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have our son, 447 00:24:47,686 --> 00:24:51,126 Speaker 3: we wouldn't have a family. So no, we owe her everything. 448 00:24:51,606 --> 00:24:54,486 Speaker 1: I mean, Spencer's five is almost six. What do you 449 00:24:54,606 --> 00:24:57,126 Speaker 1: tell him about where he came from? 450 00:24:57,446 --> 00:25:00,006 Speaker 3: Yes, so he doesn't actually know yet that he was 451 00:25:00,046 --> 00:25:03,526 Speaker 3: born through saragacy, but that is a conversation that we're 452 00:25:03,566 --> 00:25:06,046 Speaker 3: having with him, most likely the next year. 453 00:25:06,326 --> 00:25:07,966 Speaker 4: So the advice we have. 454 00:25:08,006 --> 00:25:11,206 Speaker 3: Been given is to tell him before the age of seven. 455 00:25:11,526 --> 00:25:15,686 Speaker 3: And he started prep this year, so he's transitioning into 456 00:25:15,726 --> 00:25:18,766 Speaker 3: school and into prep and once he's all settled, then 457 00:25:18,806 --> 00:25:21,326 Speaker 3: we will have a conversation either later this year or 458 00:25:21,366 --> 00:25:23,846 Speaker 3: next year. And one of the best ways to do 459 00:25:23,926 --> 00:25:26,406 Speaker 3: it is through a book. So there's lots of children's 460 00:25:26,406 --> 00:25:30,726 Speaker 3: books to explain surrogacy to him, keep it really simple 461 00:25:30,966 --> 00:25:34,686 Speaker 3: as well as the advice, and he obviously knows Leah 462 00:25:34,886 --> 00:25:38,486 Speaker 3: and knows who she is, so it'll be conversation of 463 00:25:38,766 --> 00:25:40,606 Speaker 3: Auntie Leah, mummy have you. 464 00:25:41,806 --> 00:25:44,446 Speaker 1: I'm sure he's very very well loved by you, especially 465 00:25:44,486 --> 00:25:48,846 Speaker 1: after the ordeal that you've been through. I really admire 466 00:25:48,886 --> 00:25:53,046 Speaker 1: your courage and strength through that because I can only 467 00:25:53,686 --> 00:25:56,886 Speaker 1: imagine how difficult that whole process was for you. But 468 00:25:56,966 --> 00:26:00,806 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful and happy that you had your happy ending. 469 00:26:01,246 --> 00:26:01,766 Speaker 4: Thank you. 470 00:26:07,166 --> 00:26:09,686 Speaker 1: I also wanted to talk to our resident OB and 471 00:26:09,846 --> 00:26:13,606 Speaker 1: IVF specialist, doctor Brohman Devine on the importance of the 472 00:26:13,726 --> 00:26:15,886 Speaker 1: thickness of the endometrial lining. 473 00:26:16,246 --> 00:26:19,926 Speaker 5: You know, it's the last frontier really of getting everything 474 00:26:20,046 --> 00:26:23,966 Speaker 5: right in terms of conception and the embryo traveling down 475 00:26:24,006 --> 00:26:27,446 Speaker 5: the tube and getting itself into the uterus and actually 476 00:26:27,446 --> 00:26:31,126 Speaker 5: implanting in the utress. Implanting in the utress is terribly 477 00:26:31,206 --> 00:26:33,966 Speaker 5: important for the health of the pregnancy and the health 478 00:26:33,966 --> 00:26:37,166 Speaker 5: of the pregnancy all the way through the pregnancy because 479 00:26:37,206 --> 00:26:41,406 Speaker 5: implantation problems can be associated with lots and lots of 480 00:26:41,526 --> 00:26:45,566 Speaker 5: problems in pregnancy, including having a very growth restricted baby 481 00:26:45,646 --> 00:26:48,886 Speaker 5: or developing preclamsier things like that all have to do 482 00:26:48,966 --> 00:26:53,006 Speaker 5: with issues around implantation. So the lining of the utress 483 00:26:53,046 --> 00:26:55,646 Speaker 5: at the time of implantation has to be perfect. It 484 00:26:55,686 --> 00:26:58,846 Speaker 5: has to be timed exactly right to accept the embryo 485 00:26:58,926 --> 00:27:02,126 Speaker 5: at exactly the right time, and it has to be 486 00:27:02,686 --> 00:27:06,366 Speaker 5: healthy and at a certain thickness that will allow implantation 487 00:27:06,486 --> 00:27:08,806 Speaker 5: to take place. And this is one of the most 488 00:27:08,886 --> 00:27:12,726 Speaker 5: challenging things in IVF because it can be really tricky, 489 00:27:13,206 --> 00:27:16,166 Speaker 5: even with all the hormonal support that we give for 490 00:27:16,286 --> 00:27:19,886 Speaker 5: some women to get a uterine lining that actually gets 491 00:27:19,926 --> 00:27:24,126 Speaker 5: to a thickness that will allow a healthy implantation. And 492 00:27:24,366 --> 00:27:27,526 Speaker 5: when we do IVF, if someone's uterine lining is not 493 00:27:27,646 --> 00:27:31,246 Speaker 5: at a level where we can feel confident about putting 494 00:27:31,286 --> 00:27:34,246 Speaker 5: a precious embryo back, we will cancel the cycle and 495 00:27:34,326 --> 00:27:37,406 Speaker 5: not put the embryo back because we know the chances 496 00:27:37,406 --> 00:27:42,366 Speaker 5: of that embryo taking and implanting is so much less. 497 00:27:43,086 --> 00:27:45,446 Speaker 5: You know, there are some women who just for one 498 00:27:45,566 --> 00:27:49,686 Speaker 5: reason or another, have a uterine lening that just doesn't respond. 499 00:27:50,206 --> 00:27:52,726 Speaker 5: And we've made so much progress in. 500 00:27:52,686 --> 00:27:53,646 Speaker 4: The world of IVF. 501 00:27:53,686 --> 00:27:56,606 Speaker 6: We're so good at creating embryos now, we're so good 502 00:27:56,646 --> 00:27:59,566 Speaker 6: at storing embryos. We can test embryos to see if 503 00:27:59,606 --> 00:28:02,966 Speaker 6: they have chromosome abnormalities. We can test embryos to see 504 00:28:03,006 --> 00:28:06,526 Speaker 6: if they have genetic mutations. We can do so much 505 00:28:06,566 --> 00:28:10,166 Speaker 6: stuff with IVF these days. Our culture mediums are so 506 00:28:10,286 --> 00:28:14,446 Speaker 6: much better, our techniques for collecting eggs and collecting sperm 507 00:28:14,566 --> 00:28:18,366 Speaker 6: and storing things and medications that we use. Everything we 508 00:28:18,486 --> 00:28:21,006 Speaker 6: do is just got better and better with time. But 509 00:28:21,206 --> 00:28:26,726 Speaker 6: improving a uterine lining has been really challenging for us 510 00:28:26,766 --> 00:28:31,006 Speaker 6: in the IVF world, and that's why some women have 511 00:28:31,086 --> 00:28:34,526 Speaker 6: to go down the path of looking at surrogacy, which 512 00:28:34,566 --> 00:28:40,486 Speaker 6: is phenomenally expensive and phenomenally challenging. But for some people, 513 00:28:40,846 --> 00:28:44,366 Speaker 6: surrogacy offers them the only hope of being able to 514 00:28:44,406 --> 00:28:46,606 Speaker 6: carry out pregnancy or being able to have a child. 515 00:28:50,246 --> 00:28:53,046 Speaker 1: Diary of a Birth was hosted by me Kasani Lukitch 516 00:28:53,126 --> 00:28:56,646 Speaker 1: with expert input from doctor Bronwin Devine. If you like 517 00:28:56,726 --> 00:28:59,566 Speaker 1: our show, don't forget to subscribe and rate. It goes 518 00:28:59,606 --> 00:29:03,086 Speaker 1: a long way to allowing us to continue sharing your stories. 519 00:29:03,606 --> 00:29:07,446 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Elamatelane and myself Cassani Lukitch, 520 00:29:07,486 --> 00:29:09,526 Speaker 1: with audio production by Tina. 521 00:29:09,246 --> 00:29:18,966 Speaker 3: Maslov Mamma mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land. 522 00:29:19,046 --> 00:29:22,446 Speaker 3: We have recorded this podcast on the Gatigal people of 523 00:29:22,486 --> 00:29:23,406 Speaker 3: the Eora Nation. 524 00:29:24,166 --> 00:29:26,966 Speaker 1: We pay our respects to their elders past and present, 525 00:29:27,366 --> 00:29:30,646 Speaker 1: and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Rate 526 00:29:30,726 --> 00:29:31,646 Speaker 1: Islander cultures.