Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mama May podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mayer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1: When that song first came out, I have a very
Speaker 1: embarrassing journal entry where I was like, get ready, Sarah,
Speaker 1: your life's gonna change and this song is gonna change
Speaker 1: the world. It's like I was just like, my I
Speaker 1: don't know if I'm gonna be able to handle how
Speaker 1: famous I'm going to become. And then, of course, you know,
Speaker 1: that song came out and nothing happened.
Speaker 2: Hello. I'm Naima Brown, executive producer of No Filter and
Speaker 2: your host for this special episode. Sarah Burrellis has always
Speaker 2: written songs that sound like they were meant just for you,
Speaker 2: songs about heartbreak, courage, and finding your way back to yourself.
Speaker 2: You know her for Love song Brave, and She Used
Speaker 2: to Be Mine. But behind those hits is a woman
Speaker 2: who's constantly reinventing herself. She's been a pop star, a
Speaker 2: Broadway composer, an actor, a mentor, and lately, a newlywed
Speaker 2: learning what real peace feels like. Over the years, Sarah
Speaker 2: has stepped away from the pop machine, faced her own
Speaker 2: reflection and found her way back to joy, creativity, and love.
Speaker 2: In this conversation, Sarah opens up about the insecurities that
Speaker 2: shaped her the song she never thought would be a hit,
Speaker 2: and how she learned to stop proving herself and just
Speaker 2: make the art she believes in. I hope you enjoy
Speaker 2: this conversation as much as I clearly did Sarah Farelli's
Speaker 2: Welcome to No Filter. I am delighted to have you
Speaker 2: here today for this conversation, and I wanted to start
Speaker 2: with that five six seven year old girl in Eureka,
Speaker 2: up in the mountains in northern California and ask you, well,
Speaker 2: you're one of three daughters. Where are you in the
Speaker 2: birth order? Sarah?
Speaker 1: I was the baby?
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you feel like they? Do you feel some
Speaker 2: of that birth order stuff?
Speaker 1: For sure? I think also because so my sister, my
Speaker 1: two older sisters are three years apart, and then my
Speaker 1: mom actually had a miscarriage that was also another three
Speaker 1: years apart, So I was like a little bit further
Speaker 1: away from my sisters in terms of age. So I
Speaker 1: was very much the baby, and also kind of like,
Speaker 1: you know, they had gone through this very challenging time
Speaker 1: of losing a child, you know, losing a she carried
Speaker 1: full term, so it was a really really hard time
Speaker 1: for my mom, but then got pregnant again and I
Speaker 1: they always only ever wanted to have three kids. So
Speaker 1: I got in some ways really blessed by that tragedy
Speaker 1: because otherwise I wouldn't have gotten a turn. And I'm
Speaker 1: so grateful to be here, and so I did feel
Speaker 1: very much the baby, Yeah, spoiled rotten, spoiled rotten, But.
Speaker 2: I'd love to think about, you know that that again,
Speaker 2: that child, that five six seven year old baby Sarah
Speaker 2: at home with your two older sisters, with your parents,
Speaker 2: Bonnie and Paul. What were they listening to? What was on?
Speaker 2: Was it? Was it a record player or you know,
Speaker 2: a tape player? What was coming through the speakers in
Speaker 2: your childhood home.
Speaker 1: There was a lot of you know, I think back
Speaker 1: on it now. It's something I noticed when I got
Speaker 1: to college because once I lived on my own, I
Speaker 1: always had music playing, and I would come home and
Speaker 1: I was realizing, like, oh, the family doesn't. They didn't
Speaker 1: put on music that often. We didn't listen to music
Speaker 1: except around Christmas time. So it's one of the reasons
Speaker 1: why I loved Christmas time. So much is because we
Speaker 1: were always listening to Christmas music. But there was my
Speaker 1: older sister, Stacy, the firstborn, did a lot of musical
Speaker 1: theater growing up, so I did listen to a lot
Speaker 1: of musical theater. And then it was like the influences
Speaker 1: of my other our middle sister. She was really into
Speaker 1: like Pearl jam and she was really into oh God,
Speaker 1: like some of the eighties like rock bands, and my
Speaker 1: dad really loved more like Golden oldies. It was a
Speaker 1: real mishmosh. We had everything from Marvin Gaye to Peter
Speaker 1: Setara to like the Miss Saigon soundtrack or Chess or
Speaker 1: something like that. It was all over the place.
Speaker 2: Which was serving you're young, you know what would become
Speaker 2: this songwriting artist as you grew older. How great to
Speaker 2: have had all the colors, Yeah, on the palette totally
Speaker 2: and kind of know exactly the range of things you
Speaker 2: could work with and draw from. Did you have a
Speaker 2: tape player in your own room?
Speaker 1: I sure did. I had a tape player. I would
Speaker 1: do the thing where I would record my favorite songs
Speaker 1: on the radio and make mixed tapes so I could
Speaker 1: listen back to my favorite songs. Yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: loved I really loved like sort of story songs, you know,
Speaker 1: so the musical theater canon really spoke to me. I
Speaker 1: loved listening for character and someone sort of getting from
Speaker 1: point A to point B throughout the the journey of
Speaker 1: a song. I just always loved all kinds of music.
Speaker 1: So it definitely informed my ear as a writer too.
Speaker 2: And so with an older sister Stacey, and musical theater
Speaker 2: and all of these kind of musical influences around you,
Speaker 2: were you, you know, doing the Three Sisters performances in
Speaker 2: front of the fireplace kind of jam.
Speaker 1: Yeah, big time, yep. Yeah, we were doing a lot
Speaker 1: of amazing grace covers. We would make up little songs,
Speaker 1: a lot of three part harmony. Yeah. It was you know,
Speaker 1: music in the family being to this day, it's always
Speaker 1: you know, some of the most joyful memories are when
Speaker 1: we would put on music and have a little family
Speaker 1: dance party or you know, everybody. I think so many
Speaker 1: people relate to this. There's just there's so much to
Speaker 1: hold people are, you know, families. Everyone's got a lot
Speaker 1: of worries they carry around, and sometimes music is just
Speaker 1: like a really beautiful permission to put it down for
Speaker 1: a moment. It's almost just like a meditation and being present,
Speaker 1: like let's just be here with this one song all together,
Speaker 1: and then we'll go back to worrying about something at
Speaker 1: work or what's happening at school or this or that.
Speaker 1: You know. I just think it's there's an immediacy around
Speaker 1: music that I really love how it transports people into
Speaker 1: the present moment.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And you were raised Catholic. I've heard you talk
Speaker 2: about the fact that that's not your spiritual expression any longer.
Speaker 2: But growing up, was there choir at the church or
Speaker 2: did that church experience have any sort of musical influence
Speaker 2: on you?
Speaker 1: Yes, most definitely. And there are some church songs that
Speaker 1: I still really love. But you know, the Catholics are
Speaker 1: not known for their robust musical expression.
Speaker 2: I think of like the you know, the Gregorian Chance
Speaker 2: that we all got really obsessed with for like a
Speaker 2: month and the night.
Speaker 1: It's a little more somber. Yeah, it's a little more
Speaker 1: of a somber experience at church. But there are some
Speaker 1: of the church songs that were saying you know on
Speaker 1: Sundays that I still think have just really extraordinarily beautiful melodies.
Speaker 1: And the thing that I loved actually about growing up
Speaker 1: within a religion was just the idea that there is
Speaker 1: something bigger, that it's not just you know, that we
Speaker 1: are not alone in this life experience, that there is
Speaker 1: that faith is worth nurturing and exploring. And so, you know,
Speaker 1: Catholicism obviously has a lot of issues, and I have
Speaker 1: a lot of issues with some of what still is
Speaker 1: at play in the church these days. But I did
Speaker 1: appreciate growing up in a faith community, and I think
Speaker 1: in a way that that's even what like a beautiful
Speaker 1: set of friends can offer you, is like these little
Speaker 1: mini faith communities where we you know, you share values
Speaker 1: and you share ideology and you sort of look towards
Speaker 1: the future with each other in mind. I feel God everywhere,
Speaker 1: not necessarily in church for me anymore. But some people
Speaker 1: that's where they really feel that experience of connection and
Speaker 1: communion with something bigger than themselves.
Speaker 2: I think so many people relate to that, and do
Speaker 2: you when you think about that idea of something bigger
Speaker 2: than ourselves and what it means for you to connect
Speaker 2: with what God means to you, is that where you
Speaker 2: think that creative spark starts.
Speaker 1: Yes, one, and that has been my sort of like
Speaker 1: faith practice from little from when I was six seven eight,
Speaker 1: you know, writing songs for the first time. There was
Speaker 1: some you know, I hear people refer to it as
Speaker 1: source with the capital S, and Obrah talks about it,
Speaker 1: source with the capital S, whatever that thing is that
Speaker 1: we're plugged into, and we all are plugged into this
Speaker 1: life force in some way, shape or form. But that
Speaker 1: channel for me always carried music with it, and so
Speaker 1: every time I felt really moved by being alive, it
Speaker 1: was related to music, whether the making of music or
Speaker 1: the listening of music, or that artistic exchange was always present.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, songwriting for me very quickly became like prayer.
Speaker 1: It was like an offering, was to try to create
Speaker 1: a wide open channel for something to come through that
Speaker 1: hopefully would be of service to the world, but was
Speaker 1: also selfish because I was working through my own shit
Speaker 1: and trying to make sense of a broken heart or
Speaker 1: you know, grief in some way. But it definitely feels
Speaker 1: connected to creator.
Speaker 2: Well, you started to share more and more of that expression,
Speaker 2: maybe outside of the privacy of your own journal in
Speaker 2: your own bedroom and your own cassette player. I've heard
Speaker 2: you say that it was around the kind of adolescent's
Speaker 2: early teen years, that eighth grade time when you started
Speaker 2: to feel for the first time that kind of external
Speaker 2: validation about your v local talent. Tell me what you
Speaker 2: remember about that moment.
Speaker 1: Oh man, I feel like, you know, my childhood was
Speaker 1: almost bifurcated into some pretty challenging experiences at my Catholic school.
Speaker 1: Growing up, I was kind of singled out and bullied
Speaker 1: like a lot of kids are in, you know, in
Speaker 1: elementary school. And then I had these like sort of
Speaker 1: incredible free experiences in the theater. I started doing community
Speaker 1: theater at a pretty young age, and so I was
Speaker 1: having these very different experiences. And so when I started
Speaker 1: singing at school and got kind of like the integration
Speaker 1: of that piece of me that felt so free, it
Speaker 1: really felt like vocal expression was the thing that brought
Speaker 1: me there where people could finally see my I hate
Speaker 1: to say, but it was almost like I just I
Speaker 1: didn't have value until I was singing.
Speaker 2: Well, at that age, it would have felt very much
Speaker 2: like value. Right, Like, looking back now, with the wisdom
Speaker 2: as a forty five year old woman, you might reach
Speaker 2: for a better way to phrase that, right with the
Speaker 2: work you've done to this point, but at that time,
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, here is my words, here's that dopamine hit,
Speaker 2: totally of external praise.
Speaker 1: And that sense that we're always just we just want
Speaker 1: to belong. Yeah, and I just didn't. I was being
Speaker 1: told over and over again that I didn't belong. And
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, Oh, we like you, you
Speaker 1: come close, let's you know, let's be friends. It was
Speaker 1: really interesting. It makes me think about the actually fast
Speaker 1: forwarding many years into the pandemic, when like sort of
Speaker 1: that part of you know, being an artist goes away,
Speaker 1: and I was very confronted with like, who am I
Speaker 1: if I'm not singing? Like? Who am I if I'm
Speaker 1: not making music for people? Is anybody like that person? Like,
Speaker 1: It's so funny how those seeds of the self doubt
Speaker 1: or just those pieces of your identity get planted so young,
Speaker 1: and they're still very much at play all these many
Speaker 1: years later.
Speaker 2: Do you see that as one of the gifts almost
Speaker 2: of that just surreal time that I think so many
Speaker 2: of us are still metabolizing, And every time somebody brings
Speaker 2: up the pandemic or COVID, I almost feel like the
Speaker 2: memories almost seem foggy and fuzzy. It's just this collective,
Speaker 2: bizarre trauma that we all experienced on different levels. But
Speaker 2: I think so many people did experience a kind of
Speaker 2: break down of identity or a shifting or reshuffling of self.
Speaker 2: Would you say that was one of the small silver
Speaker 2: linings that came out of that experience, for you to
Speaker 2: have to ask yourself those questions about what is your
Speaker 2: currency if it's not bringing us music?
Speaker 1: Definitely, I think that was as confronting and uncomfortable as
Speaker 1: it was, it was very helpful even just to pose
Speaker 1: the question without knowing the answer. Thank God, I don't
Speaker 1: have to answer that question who am I without it?
Speaker 1: Because I get to that is a part of my
Speaker 1: expression here on earth right now, you know. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it was a really it's a really interesting that, you know,
Speaker 1: the places where we get rigid or solid about who
Speaker 1: we are and who we are not, it's I find
Speaker 1: that to be really fertile ground for exploration. And definitely,
Speaker 1: you know, my meditation practice got much stronger during that time.
Speaker 1: I also got on medication for the first time, which
Speaker 1: was a real life saver because I was not metabolizing
Speaker 1: that time in a healthy way. So yeah, there were
Speaker 1: a lot of silver linings that have really stayed with
Speaker 1: me from that time. And though I'm not dying to
Speaker 1: go back, I guess in a way i'm not. I
Speaker 1: am glad it happened in some kind of way that
Speaker 1: was necessary.
Speaker 2: Don't go anywhere after this break. Sarah Burrellis revisits a
Speaker 2: letter to her seventeen year old self and opens up
Speaker 2: about the pressures of fitting in. You've always alchemized. You know,
Speaker 2: these periods of grief and tumult in your life. I
Speaker 2: know that the bullying experience that you mentioned, your parents' divorce,
Speaker 2: some of just the kind of rough and tumble tumult
Speaker 2: of our early adulthood and stepping out into the world
Speaker 2: as ourselves through to COVID. Why do you think that
Speaker 2: that's such a crucible of creativity for you, those moments,
Speaker 2: those periods of time.
Speaker 1: I think it's so related to It's like the thing
Speaker 1: that I'm really after, ultimately, like my life's purpose, I
Speaker 1: think is just connection, And it's like those sharing those
Speaker 1: most vulnerable moments seem to be like a key to
Speaker 1: the lock. Every time I've managed to fashion another one
Speaker 1: of those keys out of a really dark moment. What
Speaker 1: I get back from it. In the sharing of it
Speaker 1: is so much recognition and connection. It's so helpful to
Speaker 1: feel less alone selfishly, so I continue to want to
Speaker 1: sort of name those dark corners of myself again selfishly
Speaker 1: because it's medicine for me, but also I hope that
Speaker 1: it is medicine for someone else as well. But I
Speaker 1: just think human beings, we are so hardwired to carry
Speaker 1: so much shame about what is ugly or misunderstood about
Speaker 1: our own psychees. And the more I get into it,
Speaker 1: and the more I understand it and look at it
Speaker 1: and share, I just see how similar we all are
Speaker 1: and how much we all just want to belong. It
Speaker 1: feels like that same theme is that we just want
Speaker 1: to belong to each other and we don't quite know how.
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, it's like part of life's work, soul work.
Speaker 2: It's absolutely true. You make music. I know when many
Speaker 2: times when I've reached for your music, it's in those
Speaker 2: moments where I'm like, I'm a weird alien on a
Speaker 2: weird planet and don't know how to be, you know,
Speaker 2: And then I'll listen to your music and be like,
Speaker 2: so is she and she's she's got words and melody
Speaker 2: and structure and texture to these, to these feelings, and
Speaker 2: speaking of those times where we feel particularly weird and alien.
Speaker 2: I'm going to fast forward to your thirty six year
Speaker 2: old self, if I've done the maths right, twenty fifteen ish,
Speaker 2: when you penned a letter to your seventeen year old self.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember this. I'm going to
Speaker 2: read you a little snippet of that letter. Okay. I
Speaker 2: had good friends that I spent a lot of time with,
Speaker 2: but also who I felt very lonely around. I obsessed
Speaker 2: over my body and convinced myself if I was fat
Speaker 2: and ugly, I was messy and emotional, broken hearted, lonely,
Speaker 2: a goofball, sensitive, silly, playful, a singer, an optimist, fearful, careful,
Speaker 2: care less, a writer, a joker, and a million other things.
Speaker 2: I was seventeen. I want to ask you if you
Speaker 2: remember why you wrote that letter, Why, at that time
Speaker 2: in your life you felt like connecting with that seventeen
Speaker 2: year old version of yourself.
Speaker 1: When I started writing, I had a book called Sounds
Speaker 1: Like Me, which is a collection of essays that I
Speaker 1: wrote the year I moved to New York City. I
Speaker 1: guess I would have been thirty four, thirty three or
Speaker 1: thirty four write around there. And in the writing of
Speaker 1: this book, I have a chapter where I started writing
Speaker 1: letters to myself. And I had heard of doing this
Speaker 1: as a journaling practice, as sort of like a like
Speaker 1: a therapeutic practice, and I found it to be incredibly
Speaker 1: helpful that I would sort of look back at a
Speaker 1: younger version of myself and with my wise and more
Speaker 1: experienced lens sort of see myself with some usually some
Speaker 1: sense of compassion there was I had no access to
Speaker 1: at the time. So I did start doing this as
Speaker 1: a practice where I started looking back, and from time
Speaker 1: to time I would see myself at sixteen, at twenty three,
Speaker 1: you know, just any out around any kind of major
Speaker 1: event of my life, and with this distance and perspective
Speaker 1: be able to sort of see what I think I
Speaker 1: was holding, and yeah, at seventeen. I mean, I'm imagining
Speaker 1: that that letter probably came out of this practice, and
Speaker 1: maybe I turned it in for an article or something.
Speaker 1: But I highly recommend it because sometimes if you can
Speaker 1: go back into these they sort of feel like very
Speaker 1: formative moment, like my parent's getting a divorce, for example,
Speaker 1: twelve years old. There is some part of me that
Speaker 1: got stuck right then because my world fell apart, and
Speaker 1: I think it created an underlying root of mistrust because
Speaker 1: I was so surprised. I just I remember being like,
Speaker 1: I did not see this coming at all. And if
Speaker 1: I didn't see this coming, what else am I not
Speaker 1: seeing coming? You know? So I think it created a
Speaker 1: sense of not quite paranoia, but some degree, some cousin
Speaker 1: of that feeling that carried on with me many many
Speaker 1: many years into the future and in relationships and being
Speaker 1: worried about what I wasn't aware of like this. I've
Speaker 1: talked about this trapdoor feeling that I had, which also
Speaker 1: related to being bullied because the people who would do
Speaker 1: the bullying were also my friends on Sundays, so like
Speaker 1: on Monday they'd be really sweet to me, and then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, on Tuesday, I'm getting made fun
Speaker 1: of and I could never figure out why, why today
Speaker 1: what happened? So yeah, when I look back on that
Speaker 1: young version of me who was trying to metabolize all
Speaker 1: of that or make sense of it, and I can
Speaker 1: just see like, it doesn't make sense. There's no sense
Speaker 1: to being made baby, like, oh, you're just doing the
Speaker 1: best you can, and all you can do almost at
Speaker 1: every stage is learn to carry more compassion for yourself
Speaker 1: that you really most of the time that we really
Speaker 1: are doing the best we can, and that's like the
Speaker 1: best we can do.
Speaker 2: Well. You were carrying that seventeen year old self and
Speaker 2: all those other versions of yourself within you into the
Speaker 2: early two thousands when you were signed to Epic Records
Speaker 2: and you had a debut album that you'd been working
Speaker 2: on for years. You'd experienced that rejection that so many
Speaker 2: artists do up until that point, and then finally they
Speaker 2: with a capital T saw you. Right. What was that moment,
Speaker 2: like that kind of extraordinary validation of here you are,
Speaker 2: You're a signed artist, We're going to put a record
Speaker 2: out in the world.
Speaker 1: Oh man, it went. It was a direct line to
Speaker 1: imposter syndrome the whole I would say the first maybe
Speaker 1: ten years of my career as a working musician, I
Speaker 1: was like, who is going to come and tap me
Speaker 1: on the shoulder and tell me to get out of
Speaker 1: this party because I don't belong here. I was deeply insecure.
Speaker 1: I felt very sure about the music. The music always
Speaker 1: felt like from a young age that was always like
Speaker 1: a very I trusted the music, I really trusted where
Speaker 1: it came from. I trusted my intentions for it and
Speaker 1: with it. But in terms of the industry, I found
Speaker 1: it to feel. My therapist at the time used to
Speaker 1: talk about it like you've gone to the Mad Hatter's
Speaker 1: tea party, and I think that's really what it's like.
Speaker 1: I say that to young artists, like it's bizarre, and
Speaker 1: this whole, like the industry that's built around celebrity and
Speaker 1: having a big public platform and people wanting access to
Speaker 1: you in its own ways very dehumanizing. I mean, we
Speaker 1: all or I don't know, a lot of people have
Speaker 1: a lot of curiosity about it, and I understand that,
Speaker 1: but the feeling tone of being inside those rooms is
Speaker 1: really unsettling, I think for me. So I was grateful
Speaker 1: that I was a little bit older when it actually
Speaker 1: when I signed my deal and I started touring, and
Speaker 1: I had the best people around me. My bandmates were
Speaker 1: my best friends, and I think I was able to
Speaker 1: navigate some pretty sticky situations because I was surrounded by
Speaker 1: really good people and I kind of have never drank
Speaker 1: the kool aid about the industry. I just I feel
Speaker 1: like it's really shiny, but there's not a lot to it.
Speaker 2: Up. Next, Sarah Burrellas tells us what love Song is
Speaker 2: really about, and it might surprise you. What I'm finding
Speaker 2: so interesting about this insight into your experience of, you know,
Speaker 2: a decade long imposter syndrome, as you say, is that
Speaker 2: what came out of those those early years, the gift
Speaker 2: that you gave all of us, one of many, was
Speaker 2: obviously the song Love Song. Right yeah, And as I said,
Speaker 2: you know, longtime listener, first time conversation, But I am
Speaker 2: embarrassed to admit that it was only in the preparation
Speaker 2: for today that I realized I'd misinterpreted that song. I,
Speaker 2: like so many people, also thought that it was about,
Speaker 2: you know, a page out of the diary of a
Speaker 2: love story, of an experience of a relationship. It's not.
Speaker 2: And I'm going to ask you to tell listeners what
Speaker 2: that song is really about in the context of how
Speaker 2: interesting it is to me to hear you say that
Speaker 2: you felt this sort of as you say, imposter syndrome,
Speaker 2: maybe not a sense of belonging, and yet still a
Speaker 2: lot of courage to push back and protect yourself as
Speaker 2: an artist and protect your work so what was love song?
Speaker 2: What is love song really about?
Speaker 1: Love song is really about the tension between being in
Speaker 1: a commercial field as an artist and understanding that there
Speaker 1: was this sort of tacit request from my record label
Speaker 1: at the time to write not a love song per se,
Speaker 1: but a pop song, a hit song, a radio song.
Speaker 1: And I knew that's what they wanted from me, And
Speaker 1: if I'm honest, if I had known how to do it,
Speaker 1: I probably would have done it. I think love song
Speaker 1: that the irony of love song is that it came
Speaker 1: out of me saying, literally, like on my knees, praying, saying,
Speaker 1: let me, please help me write something that helps me
Speaker 1: remember who I am because I don't keep trying, and
Speaker 1: they're saying like, Nope, it's not that, Nope, it's not that,
Speaker 1: and I was losing the thread. So Love Song sort
Speaker 1: of tumbled out one afternoon in my little rehearsal space,
Speaker 1: and I turned it in being certain would have bet
Speaker 1: my last dollar on the fact that they would have
Speaker 1: hated that song and said, Nope, it's not that. But hilariously,
Speaker 1: they loved it and also didn't know it was about them,
Speaker 1: So we just kept that our cheeky little secret for
Speaker 1: a long time.
Speaker 2: It is the best little secret. I love it. I
Speaker 2: love it so much. It's actually quite I'm actually kind
Speaker 2: of enjoying discovering that now because it's giving me it's
Speaker 2: almost like a re release in my own mind. You No, Like,
Speaker 2: it's like I'm hearing it differently. I'm enjoying it differently.
Speaker 2: It's feeling a little bit more subversive and rebellious. And
Speaker 2: it's in my life again now in a new way
Speaker 2: now that I know that, I think it will be
Speaker 2: for a lot of people who might be learning that
Speaker 2: for the first time. Another song of yours I want
Speaker 2: to dig into is Brave, which you released in twenty thirteen.
Speaker 2: Another song that's in high rotation in my life and
Speaker 2: so many others. And what I really love about this
Speaker 2: song is how it became such an anthem for the
Speaker 2: LGBTQ community. And again, thinking about six year old Sarah
Speaker 2: in her bedroom with her cassette tape, right, that must
Speaker 2: have been an extraordinary feeling when something that was born
Speaker 2: inside of you becomes a source of strength for other people,
Speaker 2: and in this case, marginalized people. What was that? What's
Speaker 2: that feeling like?
Speaker 1: Oh? It is transcendent it's the best. It's the most
Speaker 1: I could ever have asked for. I mean, just there
Speaker 1: is no better feeling than watching something you sort of
Speaker 1: helped like usher into the world. My sort of philosophy
Speaker 1: on music is like that doesn't belong to anybody. It's
Speaker 1: just like I caught the Tale of the Meuse that
Speaker 1: day along with my friend Jack Antonoff, who wrote that
Speaker 1: song with me. But that to just help usher something
Speaker 1: into the world that feels like it already belonged to
Speaker 1: other people, I think is just a tremendous source of pride.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think it's always been important to me
Speaker 1: to do my best to be an ally to people
Speaker 1: who feel disenfranchised or feel othered. And I think in
Speaker 1: some ways it comes back to, as silly as it
Speaker 1: may be, to being like a kid who got bullied,
Speaker 1: and I know what it feels to be ostracized and
Speaker 1: to be less than and I don't ever want to
Speaker 1: make people feel that way. I really believe in the value,
Speaker 1: on a soul level of really putting effort towards inclusivity.
Speaker 1: That acceptance and love and truth and the courage to
Speaker 1: show up as one's authentic self is actually the medicine
Speaker 1: that the world needs. I really believe that with my
Speaker 1: heart of hearts. So this song was a love letter
Speaker 1: to a friend who was struggling with coming out, one
Speaker 1: of the most my one of my north star most
Speaker 1: beloved friends. And it was a very personal note to
Speaker 1: this person and then put it in a song. And
Speaker 1: I think because it carried the resonance of truth and
Speaker 1: just like a lot of love for this person, it
Speaker 1: kind of ballooned out into this bigger story. And yeah,
Speaker 1: it's very proud. I'm very proud to be a part
Speaker 1: of the story of that song. Oh.
Speaker 2: I think it's incredible because, you know, source of the capitalist,
Speaker 2: the universe, whatever you call it, does like to play
Speaker 2: pranks on us sometimes, I think, keep us laughing at
Speaker 2: ourselves sometimes. You know. A few months after Brave was released,
Speaker 2: Katy Perry Roar came out and was instantly kind of
Speaker 2: compared to Brave in a very simplistic kind of way.
Speaker 2: There's a similar chord progression, similar message in some ways too,
Speaker 2: you know, a bit of a fight song. You've always
Speaker 2: been incredibly gracious about that. Is it just a kind
Speaker 2: of quirk of the fact that there's there's a limited
Speaker 2: number of notes available in the world. Sure, sometimes this
Speaker 2: is just gonna happen. You know, how do you think
Speaker 2: that something like that kind of comes to pass?
Speaker 1: Well, it's not the most inventive chord progression in the world.
Speaker 1: Like I like, it's what they've been doing that people
Speaker 1: are making that song over and over again forever. I
Speaker 1: again feel like my I have a lot of faith
Speaker 1: in the way that life moves. And I actually think
Speaker 1: when that song first came out, I have a very
Speaker 1: embarrassing journal entry where I was like, get ready, Sarah,
Speaker 1: your life's gonna change and this song is gonna change
Speaker 1: the world. It's like I was just like, I don't
Speaker 1: know if I'm going to be able to handle how
Speaker 1: famous I'm going to become like it was.
Speaker 2: I hope you framed that page of your diary.
Speaker 1: I'm going to have to find it. But if I
Speaker 1: find it, I'll send it to you. I promise I
Speaker 1: would love to see that.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: And then, of course, you know that song came out
Speaker 1: and nothing happened. Nothing happened with the song, and so
Speaker 1: the sort of quote unquote controversy with Katy Perry was
Speaker 1: a part of what kind of steered eyeballs towards this song,
Speaker 1: in addition to another kind of simultaneous little mini story
Speaker 1: that was happening out of a children's hospital in Minnesota
Speaker 1: where these little beautiful young patients, some bald from their
Speaker 1: cancer treatment with superhero capes like the nurses had made
Speaker 1: this music video to the song Brave. So that video
Speaker 1: went viral, and so with it the song, and then
Speaker 1: there was this other kind of piece where it was
Speaker 1: controversy and what really felt to me. I mean, I've
Speaker 1: known Katie a long time, we were in La together,
Speaker 1: I've shared hotel rooms with her. I did not consider
Speaker 1: ourselves like adverts serial in any way. It felt like
Speaker 1: we were being pitted against each other in a way
Speaker 1: that like, I just don't really ascribe to I'm a
Speaker 1: feminist to you know, as far as it'll take me.
Speaker 2: Not your style, yeah, not my style.
Speaker 1: No. So I think in some way it even helped
Speaker 1: the visibility of the song. And there was nothing stolen
Speaker 1: from me. There was nothing taken from me that I
Speaker 1: needed to fight for in that moment. There could be
Speaker 1: another scenario that happens where I might feel differently, but
Speaker 1: in that moment, I really I'm very much at peace
Speaker 1: with how that all kind of transpired well and.
Speaker 2: Brave and all of your music. You know, still it's
Speaker 2: got such a long tail. You know, there's still new
Speaker 2: people discovering it all the time, and a part of
Speaker 2: that is because of Waitress the musical, which I'm very
Speaker 2: excited to talk to you about. What I love about
Speaker 2: this too, is that I've heard you say that if
Speaker 2: you could go back and do it again, you might
Speaker 2: have studied musical theater, and instead I think you study
Speaker 2: communications or something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2: So I feel like there must have been a theater
Speaker 2: kid just lurking inside of you that was like, when
Speaker 2: is my time finally going to come? And it came
Speaker 2: and you made it happen. I'm very curious about the
Speaker 2: Chicken and Egg, you know, did you fall in love
Speaker 2: with the film and was the concept for the musical
Speaker 2: your idea or were you approached? How did this come
Speaker 2: to be a part of your exciting creative expression.
Speaker 1: I was approached. So after my second record, Kaleidoscope, Part,
Speaker 1: I very quickly. I'm a Sagittarius and I get very
Speaker 1: antsy when things start to look too much the same
Speaker 1: all the time. And I started very quickly to be
Speaker 1: able to see what the long road of being a
Speaker 1: recording artist look like. It's very cyclical. It looks you
Speaker 1: make you write songs, you make a record, you go
Speaker 1: on tour, you take a break, you write songs, you
Speaker 1: go make a record, you go on to it. It
Speaker 1: just started to look really solure and I started to
Speaker 1: get a little claustrophobic, and so I took a little
Speaker 1: a break and I went to New York City, and
Speaker 1: I thought that I would audition for something and see,
Speaker 1: like what if I took a break and did a show.
Speaker 1: And I did this terrible audition for a show called
Speaker 1: Into the Woods, and I did not get the part.
Speaker 1: And I was so embarrassed by my audition because I
Speaker 1: really had no idea what the hell I was doing.
Speaker 1: And in that same little I took a month and
Speaker 1: went to New York and in that same month I
Speaker 1: had a meeting with a woman named Diane Paulus, who
Speaker 1: was attached as the director at this point for Waitress.
Speaker 1: So this was in its nascent stages. There were producers attached,
Speaker 1: there was a director attached, and they were looking for
Speaker 1: a composer. And I had an interesting meeting with her.
Speaker 1: I had not seen the film. At the time, I
Speaker 1: had never in a million years considered writing a musical.
Speaker 1: I really only thought I would go and audition and
Speaker 1: try to be a part of something as an actor.
Speaker 2: Really, so there was never a little part of you,
Speaker 2: even with your sister in musical theater and all of
Speaker 2: that that was like, oh, and growing up listening to
Speaker 2: musical theater, there was never a party that thought I
Speaker 2: want to create that now.
Speaker 1: Wow, did not even occur to me. Never thought about it,
Speaker 1: not even once.
Speaker 2: I loved that. I loved that it was such a
Speaker 2: new thing that just swooped in and entered your life totally.
Speaker 1: And actually, I have to say I have to give
Speaker 1: Jennifer Nettles of the band sugar Land a lot of
Speaker 1: credit for this, because we toured together and she always
Speaker 1: wanted to write a musical, and she's like, Sarah, let's
Speaker 1: write a musical. So we would sit in her dressing
Speaker 1: room and we'd like fart around on the keyboard and
Speaker 1: we were writing musical theater songs. And I think in
Speaker 1: a way it started to make it feel like, oh,
Speaker 1: is that a thing that I could do? It feels
Speaker 1: so playful and so like childlike. But then this opportunity
Speaker 1: presented itself, and I watched the movie and I did
Speaker 1: not fall in love with everything right out the gate.
Speaker 1: I felt a lot of questions, but I curious. And
Speaker 1: then the first song after watching the film, the first
Speaker 1: song that I wrote, was she Used to be Mine.
Speaker 1: And I was feeling a lot of synergy between the
Speaker 1: sort of state of mind of the character and what
Speaker 1: I was going through at that time. As I mentioned,
Speaker 1: I was like, I can see down the road a
Speaker 1: million years. I'm getting claustrophobic in my life. I made
Speaker 1: the decision to move to New York. I made the
Speaker 1: decision to leave my bandmates who were my very best friends,
Speaker 1: my family. I left my manager, I left a long relationship.
Speaker 1: I sort of did this wipe the slate clean. We'll
Speaker 1: call it a mid life crisis. And I moved to
Speaker 1: New York and I just felt unmoored and I didn't
Speaker 1: know which way was up, and I just I think
Speaker 1: that's part of why I said yes to this project.
Speaker 1: And I do often speak about my life falls very
Speaker 1: solidly into two categories. It is before waitress and after waitress,
Speaker 1: and everything about my life is better because of this show.
Speaker 1: I love this show. I am so excited it's coming
Speaker 1: to Australia. It's been such a long time in the making.
Speaker 2: We are very excited too. And does that possibly mean
Speaker 2: that you might come to celebrate the debut of Waitress
Speaker 2: Musical in Australia with us.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I hope. So this will all be
Speaker 1: dependent upon schedule. So things are still kind of shifting
Speaker 1: a little bit for me as I'm working on a
Speaker 1: new record and I'm trying to also tend to my
Speaker 1: you know, other duties. But of course, oh my god,
Speaker 1: if I can be there, you know, I'm going to
Speaker 1: be there with bells on my hand is up.
Speaker 2: You know, you can put your people in touch with
Speaker 2: my people. I don't know, I have no people to
Speaker 2: be your you know. Your American Guide to Australianisms. I
Speaker 2: love it because there are a lot of very funny
Speaker 2: but sometimes very confusing ones. We would love to have
Speaker 2: you and to host you, and I do hope that
Speaker 2: you're able to make it. While we're on the topic
Speaker 2: of celebration, celebrating Waitress coming to Australia in this extraordinary
Speaker 2: kind of new chapter in your life, you, my dear,
Speaker 2: are a newlywed. Like a week a week ago.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just about you and.
Speaker 2: Your husband, Joe Tippett, the incredible actor. Joe Tippitt only
Speaker 2: got married a week ago. I don't know what you're
Speaker 2: doing talking to me. I don't know why you're not,
Speaker 2: you know, sipping Margarita's on a beach somewhere. I hope
Speaker 2: that that's in. Maybe that's where you're going as soon
Speaker 2: as soon as we finish.
Speaker 1: Kidding it a plane.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would. I hope that for you. I wish
Speaker 2: that for you. I was looking at your wedding photos
Speaker 2: on Instagram and I just felt such immense happiness for you, Sarah,
Speaker 2: you know, because I've been studying you and your work,
Speaker 2: and I felt like I understood the journey that you've
Speaker 2: really been on to understand yourself better through a lot
Speaker 2: of the mental health struggles that you've mentioned, navigating a
Speaker 2: really tricky industry. And I feel like I looked at
Speaker 2: those pictures and I'm like, that was on an easy
Speaker 2: road to that day, and look at this incredible moment
Speaker 2: of celebration and excitement about future and what's next. And
Speaker 2: I just really want to ask you, you know again,
Speaker 2: starting with that six year old in your bedroom right now,
Speaker 2: in your life in this moment, forty five year old
Speaker 2: woman newlywed, really at the top of your game creatively,
Speaker 2: How are you? Where are you with yourself right now?
Speaker 1: I love that question, you know, when you were talking
Speaker 1: about the looking at the photographs of that day. One
Speaker 1: of the things that I came away from that day feeling.
Speaker 1: And I say this for anybody listening who finds themselves
Speaker 1: to be have a fear of commitment or vulnerability. I
Speaker 1: think I've always felt very guarded and self protective, especially
Speaker 1: in relationship. And I can't believe, in knowing me, that
Speaker 1: I got to get to a place where I stood
Speaker 1: across from someone and I was not carrying any pit
Speaker 1: of anxiety, any worry, any low grade hum of anxious
Speaker 1: need to extract, which has always been present for me.
Speaker 1: Is just like I got to keep one eye on
Speaker 1: the door, one foot out just a little bit, just
Speaker 1: to be safe, to make sure I take care of myself.
Speaker 1: And So the journey with Joe, who I also met
Speaker 1: on Waitress by the way, he was that's I met
Speaker 1: this I met my husband because of this beautiful show.
Speaker 1: The journey was really about loving myself and learning to
Speaker 1: trust someone. And I can't believe that it was possible.
Speaker 1: So I just say that to encourage anybody who's on
Speaker 1: that journey still or just like can I could I ever?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think for at a certain point, I
Speaker 1: I just never thought I would get married. I never
Speaker 1: thought I would even really learn to open myself up
Speaker 1: that much to someone. And so it's a really it's
Speaker 1: a really beautiful feeling when you get there and you
Speaker 1: it is hard one. Like you said, there's I would
Speaker 1: never use the word easy to describe our relationship. We
Speaker 1: have fought every step of the way to get here,
Speaker 1: and now it feels there's an ease to it, but
Speaker 1: no very hard one. And I'm really really proud of that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'm good to answer your question. I'm good. I
Speaker 1: feel really in a way, I feel really proud of myself.
Speaker 1: And there's so much vulnerability in letting yourself be joyful.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, it's impossible to look at the
Speaker 1: context of the world right now and how much fear
Speaker 1: and anguish and paranoia and othering is happening. And so
Speaker 1: to allow it to be true that there is also
Speaker 1: still joy and also still connection and also still hope,
Speaker 1: I think is an act of resistance and is important
Speaker 1: here here.
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree with that more. And what I love
Speaker 2: about that is, you know, if I a stranger admiring
Speaker 2: you from a distance, can learn a bit about you,
Speaker 2: look at that photo of you and feel genuine joy
Speaker 2: for you. It only makes me think that that six
Speaker 2: year old we've discussed, that thirteen year old we've discussed
Speaker 2: that seventeen year old you wrote a letter to, would
Speaker 2: be really proud of you right now too, Sarah.
Speaker 1: That's such a sweet thing to say.
Speaker 2: Thank you for this conversation. Thank you so much, friends,
Speaker 2: that was Sarah Barelli's a woman who's built a career
Speaker 2: on being brave enough to tell the truth even when
Speaker 2: it hurts. Her hit musical Waitress is coming to Australia.
Speaker 2: And if you've ever needed a reminder that it's never
Speaker 2: too late to start again, her story and her music
Speaker 2: will give you exactly that. The senior producer of No
Speaker 2: Filter is Preplayer. Audio production by Tina Mattalov, video editing
Speaker 2: by Josh Green and I'm Naima Brown. Thank you for
Speaker 2: listening to No Filter.