WEBVTT - Sara Bareilles Still Won't Write You A Love Song 0:00:10.365 --> 0:00:13.085 You're listening to a Mama May podcast. 0:00:13.885 --> 0:00:16.885 Mamma Mayer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.885 --> 0:00:18.525 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:18.645 --> 0:00:21.605 When that song first came out, I have a very 0:00:21.645 --> 0:00:25.285 embarrassing journal entry where I was like, get ready, Sarah, 0:00:25.525 --> 0:00:28.845 your life's gonna change and this song is gonna change 0:00:28.925 --> 0:00:32.205 the world. It's like I was just like, my I 0:00:32.285 --> 0:00:34.525 don't know if I'm gonna be able to handle how 0:00:34.565 --> 0:00:38.045 famous I'm going to become. And then, of course, you know, 0:00:38.325 --> 0:00:39.925 that song came out and nothing happened. 0:00:44.445 --> 0:00:48.165 Hello. I'm Naima Brown, executive producer of No Filter and 0:00:48.245 --> 0:00:52.405 your host for this special episode. Sarah Burrellis has always 0:00:52.445 --> 0:00:55.405 written songs that sound like they were meant just for you, 0:00:56.085 --> 0:01:00.165 songs about heartbreak, courage, and finding your way back to yourself. 0:01:00.685 --> 0:01:04.045 You know her for Love song Brave, and She Used 0:01:04.085 --> 0:01:06.845 to Be Mine. But behind those hits is a woman 0:01:06.885 --> 0:01:11.325 who's constantly reinventing herself. She's been a pop star, a 0:01:11.445 --> 0:01:16.565 Broadway composer, an actor, a mentor, and lately, a newlywed 0:01:17.005 --> 0:01:20.885 learning what real peace feels like. Over the years, Sarah 0:01:20.885 --> 0:01:23.605 has stepped away from the pop machine, faced her own 0:01:23.645 --> 0:01:27.605 reflection and found her way back to joy, creativity, and love. 0:01:28.085 --> 0:01:31.405 In this conversation, Sarah opens up about the insecurities that 0:01:31.485 --> 0:01:34.205 shaped her the song she never thought would be a hit, 0:01:34.725 --> 0:01:38.085 and how she learned to stop proving herself and just 0:01:38.165 --> 0:01:41.085 make the art she believes in. I hope you enjoy 0:01:41.165 --> 0:01:46.925 this conversation as much as I clearly did Sarah Farelli's 0:01:47.365 --> 0:01:51.605 Welcome to No Filter. I am delighted to have you 0:01:51.645 --> 0:01:55.685 here today for this conversation, and I wanted to start 0:01:55.685 --> 0:01:59.605 with that five six seven year old girl in Eureka, 0:01:59.725 --> 0:02:03.565 up in the mountains in northern California and ask you, well, 0:02:03.605 --> 0:02:05.405 you're one of three daughters. Where are you in the 0:02:05.405 --> 0:02:06.525 birth order? Sarah? 0:02:06.565 --> 0:02:07.405 I was the baby? 0:02:07.845 --> 0:02:10.885 Yeah, did you feel like they? Do you feel some 0:02:10.925 --> 0:02:12.245 of that birth order stuff? 0:02:12.365 --> 0:02:16.645 For sure? I think also because so my sister, my 0:02:16.685 --> 0:02:20.085 two older sisters are three years apart, and then my 0:02:20.725 --> 0:02:24.845 mom actually had a miscarriage that was also another three 0:02:24.925 --> 0:02:27.285 years apart, So I was like a little bit further 0:02:27.405 --> 0:02:30.445 away from my sisters in terms of age. So I 0:02:30.645 --> 0:02:33.565 was very much the baby, and also kind of like, 0:02:33.725 --> 0:02:36.005 you know, they had gone through this very challenging time 0:02:36.085 --> 0:02:38.445 of losing a child, you know, losing a she carried 0:02:38.445 --> 0:02:41.885 full term, so it was a really really hard time 0:02:41.925 --> 0:02:45.445 for my mom, but then got pregnant again and I 0:02:45.485 --> 0:02:48.125 they always only ever wanted to have three kids. So 0:02:48.365 --> 0:02:51.765 I got in some ways really blessed by that tragedy 0:02:52.365 --> 0:02:55.045 because otherwise I wouldn't have gotten a turn. And I'm 0:02:55.085 --> 0:02:57.525 so grateful to be here, and so I did feel 0:02:57.605 --> 0:03:03.205 very much the baby, Yeah, spoiled rotten, spoiled rotten, But. 0:03:03.205 --> 0:03:06.125 I'd love to think about, you know that that again, 0:03:06.205 --> 0:03:11.005 that child, that five six seven year old baby Sarah 0:03:11.165 --> 0:03:13.645 at home with your two older sisters, with your parents, 0:03:13.645 --> 0:03:17.565 Bonnie and Paul. What were they listening to? What was on? 0:03:17.765 --> 0:03:19.525 Was it? Was it a record player or you know, 0:03:19.765 --> 0:03:22.005 a tape player? What was coming through the speakers in 0:03:22.045 --> 0:03:23.005 your childhood home. 0:03:23.485 --> 0:03:26.405 There was a lot of you know, I think back 0:03:26.445 --> 0:03:28.525 on it now. It's something I noticed when I got 0:03:28.565 --> 0:03:31.245 to college because once I lived on my own, I 0:03:31.325 --> 0:03:34.525 always had music playing, and I would come home and 0:03:34.565 --> 0:03:37.525 I was realizing, like, oh, the family doesn't. They didn't 0:03:37.565 --> 0:03:41.005 put on music that often. We didn't listen to music 0:03:41.125 --> 0:03:44.245 except around Christmas time. So it's one of the reasons 0:03:44.245 --> 0:03:46.445 why I loved Christmas time. So much is because we 0:03:46.445 --> 0:03:49.405 were always listening to Christmas music. But there was my 0:03:49.485 --> 0:03:54.245 older sister, Stacy, the firstborn, did a lot of musical 0:03:54.285 --> 0:03:56.405 theater growing up, so I did listen to a lot 0:03:56.445 --> 0:04:00.005 of musical theater. And then it was like the influences 0:04:00.045 --> 0:04:02.645 of my other our middle sister. She was really into 0:04:02.725 --> 0:04:06.965 like Pearl jam and she was really into oh God, 0:04:07.125 --> 0:04:10.445 like some of the eighties like rock bands, and my 0:04:10.645 --> 0:04:16.045 dad really loved more like Golden oldies. It was a 0:04:16.125 --> 0:04:20.285 real mishmosh. We had everything from Marvin Gaye to Peter 0:04:20.405 --> 0:04:25.205 Setara to like the Miss Saigon soundtrack or Chess or 0:04:25.245 --> 0:04:27.365 something like that. It was all over the place. 0:04:27.125 --> 0:04:30.565 Which was serving you're young, you know what would become 0:04:30.885 --> 0:04:36.645 this songwriting artist as you grew older. How great to 0:04:36.685 --> 0:04:39.685 have had all the colors, Yeah, on the palette totally 0:04:39.765 --> 0:04:42.045 and kind of know exactly the range of things you 0:04:42.085 --> 0:04:44.685 could work with and draw from. Did you have a 0:04:44.725 --> 0:04:45.925 tape player in your own room? 0:04:46.005 --> 0:04:48.485 I sure did. I had a tape player. I would 0:04:48.525 --> 0:04:50.605 do the thing where I would record my favorite songs 0:04:50.645 --> 0:04:53.245 on the radio and make mixed tapes so I could 0:04:53.325 --> 0:04:56.165 listen back to my favorite songs. Yeah, I mean I 0:04:56.205 --> 0:05:00.645 loved I really loved like sort of story songs, you know, 0:05:00.685 --> 0:05:03.005 so the musical theater canon really spoke to me. I 0:05:03.045 --> 0:05:07.125 loved listening for character and someone sort of getting from 0:05:07.125 --> 0:05:10.565 point A to point B throughout the the journey of 0:05:10.605 --> 0:05:13.685 a song. I just always loved all kinds of music. 0:05:13.805 --> 0:05:17.765 So it definitely informed my ear as a writer too. 0:05:18.125 --> 0:05:21.125 And so with an older sister Stacey, and musical theater 0:05:21.325 --> 0:05:24.445 and all of these kind of musical influences around you, 0:05:25.525 --> 0:05:29.765 were you, you know, doing the Three Sisters performances in 0:05:29.765 --> 0:05:32.445 front of the fireplace kind of jam. 0:05:32.565 --> 0:05:35.125 Yeah, big time, yep. Yeah, we were doing a lot 0:05:35.165 --> 0:05:38.805 of amazing grace covers. We would make up little songs, 0:05:38.925 --> 0:05:42.365 a lot of three part harmony. Yeah. It was you know, 0:05:42.565 --> 0:05:46.205 music in the family being to this day, it's always 0:05:46.285 --> 0:05:49.645 you know, some of the most joyful memories are when 0:05:49.645 --> 0:05:52.285 we would put on music and have a little family 0:05:52.445 --> 0:05:55.285 dance party or you know, everybody. I think so many 0:05:55.325 --> 0:05:57.405 people relate to this. There's just there's so much to 0:05:57.485 --> 0:06:00.765 hold people are, you know, families. Everyone's got a lot 0:06:00.765 --> 0:06:03.805 of worries they carry around, and sometimes music is just 0:06:03.885 --> 0:06:08.205 like a really beautiful permission to put it down for 0:06:08.245 --> 0:06:10.925 a moment. It's almost just like a meditation and being present, 0:06:11.285 --> 0:06:14.845 like let's just be here with this one song all together, 0:06:14.925 --> 0:06:17.765 and then we'll go back to worrying about something at 0:06:17.805 --> 0:06:20.725 work or what's happening at school or this or that. 0:06:20.925 --> 0:06:24.045 You know. I just think it's there's an immediacy around 0:06:24.125 --> 0:06:27.125 music that I really love how it transports people into 0:06:27.165 --> 0:06:27.925 the present moment. 0:06:28.245 --> 0:06:33.205 Absolutely, And you were raised Catholic. I've heard you talk 0:06:33.245 --> 0:06:37.485 about the fact that that's not your spiritual expression any longer. 0:06:37.965 --> 0:06:41.685 But growing up, was there choir at the church or 0:06:42.165 --> 0:06:45.325 did that church experience have any sort of musical influence 0:06:45.325 --> 0:06:45.565 on you? 0:06:46.205 --> 0:06:48.685 Yes, most definitely. And there are some church songs that 0:06:48.765 --> 0:06:51.965 I still really love. But you know, the Catholics are 0:06:52.005 --> 0:06:55.045 not known for their robust musical expression. 0:06:55.445 --> 0:06:57.965 I think of like the you know, the Gregorian Chance 0:06:58.045 --> 0:06:59.845 that we all got really obsessed with for like a 0:06:59.885 --> 0:07:00.605 month and the night. 0:07:00.605 --> 0:07:05.125 It's a little more somber. Yeah, it's a little more 0:07:05.165 --> 0:07:09.485 of a somber experience at church. But there are some 0:07:10.165 --> 0:07:13.165 of the church songs that were saying you know on 0:07:13.285 --> 0:07:17.685 Sundays that I still think have just really extraordinarily beautiful melodies. 0:07:18.085 --> 0:07:20.605 And the thing that I loved actually about growing up 0:07:20.965 --> 0:07:25.565 within a religion was just the idea that there is 0:07:25.605 --> 0:07:28.925 something bigger, that it's not just you know, that we 0:07:29.125 --> 0:07:33.005 are not alone in this life experience, that there is 0:07:34.005 --> 0:07:38.365 that faith is worth nurturing and exploring. And so, you know, 0:07:39.205 --> 0:07:42.485 Catholicism obviously has a lot of issues, and I have 0:07:42.485 --> 0:07:45.365 a lot of issues with some of what still is 0:07:45.365 --> 0:07:47.645 at play in the church these days. But I did 0:07:47.845 --> 0:07:53.205 appreciate growing up in a faith community, and I think 0:07:53.285 --> 0:07:57.645 in a way that that's even what like a beautiful 0:07:57.765 --> 0:07:59.845 set of friends can offer you, is like these little 0:07:59.885 --> 0:08:03.725 mini faith communities where we you know, you share values 0:08:03.765 --> 0:08:07.365 and you share ideology and you sort of look towards 0:08:07.485 --> 0:08:11.485 the future with each other in mind. I feel God everywhere, 0:08:11.805 --> 0:08:15.285 not necessarily in church for me anymore. But some people 0:08:15.325 --> 0:08:18.085 that's where they really feel that experience of connection and 0:08:18.125 --> 0:08:20.725 communion with something bigger than themselves. 0:08:20.845 --> 0:08:23.965 I think so many people relate to that, and do 0:08:24.005 --> 0:08:27.285 you when you think about that idea of something bigger 0:08:27.325 --> 0:08:29.885 than ourselves and what it means for you to connect 0:08:29.885 --> 0:08:32.685 with what God means to you, is that where you 0:08:32.845 --> 0:08:35.045 think that creative spark starts. 0:08:35.525 --> 0:08:39.125 Yes, one, and that has been my sort of like 0:08:39.205 --> 0:08:42.605 faith practice from little from when I was six seven eight, 0:08:42.645 --> 0:08:45.725 you know, writing songs for the first time. There was 0:08:45.805 --> 0:08:47.605 some you know, I hear people refer to it as 0:08:47.885 --> 0:08:50.405 source with the capital S, and Obrah talks about it, 0:08:50.485 --> 0:08:53.845 source with the capital S, whatever that thing is that 0:08:53.885 --> 0:08:56.925 we're plugged into, and we all are plugged into this 0:08:57.645 --> 0:09:01.565 life force in some way, shape or form. But that 0:09:01.885 --> 0:09:05.885 channel for me always carried music with it, and so 0:09:06.445 --> 0:09:11.525 every time I felt really moved by being alive, it 0:09:11.605 --> 0:09:14.165 was related to music, whether the making of music or 0:09:14.165 --> 0:09:18.005 the listening of music, or that artistic exchange was always present. 0:09:18.605 --> 0:09:23.605 And so yeah, songwriting for me very quickly became like prayer. 0:09:24.165 --> 0:09:27.405 It was like an offering, was to try to create 0:09:27.885 --> 0:09:30.765 a wide open channel for something to come through that 0:09:31.485 --> 0:09:34.445 hopefully would be of service to the world, but was 0:09:34.485 --> 0:09:36.805 also selfish because I was working through my own shit 0:09:36.885 --> 0:09:40.445 and trying to make sense of a broken heart or 0:09:40.685 --> 0:09:44.365 you know, grief in some way. But it definitely feels 0:09:44.405 --> 0:09:47.045 connected to creator. 0:09:47.965 --> 0:09:51.565 Well, you started to share more and more of that expression, 0:09:52.045 --> 0:09:54.565 maybe outside of the privacy of your own journal in 0:09:54.605 --> 0:09:57.805 your own bedroom and your own cassette player. I've heard 0:09:57.845 --> 0:10:00.845 you say that it was around the kind of adolescent's 0:10:00.925 --> 0:10:04.805 early teen years, that eighth grade time when you started 0:10:04.845 --> 0:10:08.005 to feel for the first time that kind of external 0:10:08.165 --> 0:10:12.045 validation about your v local talent. Tell me what you 0:10:12.085 --> 0:10:13.445 remember about that moment. 0:10:13.685 --> 0:10:20.525 Oh man, I feel like, you know, my childhood was 0:10:22.125 --> 0:10:28.605 almost bifurcated into some pretty challenging experiences at my Catholic school. 0:10:28.605 --> 0:10:31.685 Growing up, I was kind of singled out and bullied 0:10:31.805 --> 0:10:35.325 like a lot of kids are in, you know, in 0:10:35.365 --> 0:10:39.765 elementary school. And then I had these like sort of 0:10:40.725 --> 0:10:46.085 incredible free experiences in the theater. I started doing community 0:10:46.165 --> 0:10:48.885 theater at a pretty young age, and so I was 0:10:48.965 --> 0:10:53.365 having these very different experiences. And so when I started 0:10:53.445 --> 0:10:57.405 singing at school and got kind of like the integration 0:10:57.605 --> 0:11:00.725 of that piece of me that felt so free, it 0:11:00.765 --> 0:11:03.525 really felt like vocal expression was the thing that brought 0:11:03.565 --> 0:11:08.685 me there where people could finally see my I hate 0:11:08.685 --> 0:11:12.045 to say, but it was almost like I just I 0:11:12.125 --> 0:11:15.605 didn't have value until I was singing. 0:11:15.765 --> 0:11:17.645 Well, at that age, it would have felt very much 0:11:17.765 --> 0:11:21.245 like value. Right, Like, looking back now, with the wisdom 0:11:21.565 --> 0:11:24.085 as a forty five year old woman, you might reach 0:11:24.165 --> 0:11:26.965 for a better way to phrase that, right with the 0:11:27.005 --> 0:11:29.485 work you've done to this point, but at that time, 0:11:30.125 --> 0:11:33.525 it's like, oh, here is my words, here's that dopamine hit, 0:11:33.805 --> 0:11:36.405 totally of external praise. 0:11:36.285 --> 0:11:39.365 And that sense that we're always just we just want 0:11:39.405 --> 0:11:43.005 to belong. Yeah, and I just didn't. I was being 0:11:43.045 --> 0:11:46.365 told over and over again that I didn't belong. And 0:11:46.405 --> 0:11:49.765 then all of a sudden, Oh, we like you, you 0:11:49.925 --> 0:11:53.285 come close, let's you know, let's be friends. It was 0:11:53.325 --> 0:11:56.445 really interesting. It makes me think about the actually fast 0:11:56.485 --> 0:11:59.365 forwarding many years into the pandemic, when like sort of 0:11:59.405 --> 0:12:02.525 that part of you know, being an artist goes away, 0:12:02.725 --> 0:12:06.245 and I was very confronted with like, who am I 0:12:06.245 --> 0:12:09.285 if I'm not singing? Like? Who am I if I'm 0:12:09.485 --> 0:12:15.445 not making music for people? Is anybody like that person? Like, 0:12:16.045 --> 0:12:19.805 It's so funny how those seeds of the self doubt 0:12:19.965 --> 0:12:24.165 or just those pieces of your identity get planted so young, 0:12:24.285 --> 0:12:26.845 and they're still very much at play all these many 0:12:26.925 --> 0:12:27.485 years later. 0:12:27.765 --> 0:12:29.965 Do you see that as one of the gifts almost 0:12:30.125 --> 0:12:33.925 of that just surreal time that I think so many 0:12:33.965 --> 0:12:37.365 of us are still metabolizing, And every time somebody brings 0:12:37.445 --> 0:12:40.685 up the pandemic or COVID, I almost feel like the 0:12:40.725 --> 0:12:45.125 memories almost seem foggy and fuzzy. It's just this collective, 0:12:45.565 --> 0:12:49.485 bizarre trauma that we all experienced on different levels. But 0:12:49.525 --> 0:12:51.845 I think so many people did experience a kind of 0:12:51.845 --> 0:12:56.685 break down of identity or a shifting or reshuffling of self. 0:12:57.005 --> 0:13:00.045 Would you say that was one of the small silver 0:13:00.125 --> 0:13:02.005 linings that came out of that experience, for you to 0:13:02.085 --> 0:13:04.565 have to ask yourself those questions about what is your 0:13:04.605 --> 0:13:07.365 currency if it's not bringing us music? 0:13:07.645 --> 0:13:11.765 Definitely, I think that was as confronting and uncomfortable as 0:13:11.805 --> 0:13:14.965 it was, it was very helpful even just to pose 0:13:15.005 --> 0:13:18.085 the question without knowing the answer. Thank God, I don't 0:13:18.085 --> 0:13:20.685 have to answer that question who am I without it? 0:13:20.805 --> 0:13:23.085 Because I get to that is a part of my 0:13:23.245 --> 0:13:27.405 expression here on earth right now, you know. But yeah, 0:13:27.485 --> 0:13:31.085 it was a really it's a really interesting that, you know, 0:13:31.645 --> 0:13:35.285 the places where we get rigid or solid about who 0:13:35.325 --> 0:13:38.965 we are and who we are not, it's I find 0:13:38.965 --> 0:13:42.805 that to be really fertile ground for exploration. And definitely, 0:13:43.165 --> 0:13:46.685 you know, my meditation practice got much stronger during that time. 0:13:47.525 --> 0:13:49.885 I also got on medication for the first time, which 0:13:49.925 --> 0:13:53.365 was a real life saver because I was not metabolizing 0:13:53.405 --> 0:13:57.165 that time in a healthy way. So yeah, there were 0:13:57.205 --> 0:13:59.845 a lot of silver linings that have really stayed with 0:13:59.885 --> 0:14:02.605 me from that time. And though I'm not dying to 0:14:02.645 --> 0:14:06.845 go back, I guess in a way i'm not. I 0:14:06.885 --> 0:14:09.525 am glad it happened in some kind of way that 0:14:09.645 --> 0:14:10.365 was necessary. 0:14:12.645 --> 0:14:16.085 Don't go anywhere after this break. Sarah Burrellis revisits a 0:14:16.165 --> 0:14:19.365 letter to her seventeen year old self and opens up 0:14:19.445 --> 0:14:27.285 about the pressures of fitting in. You've always alchemized. You know, 0:14:27.325 --> 0:14:30.285 these periods of grief and tumult in your life. I 0:14:30.325 --> 0:14:34.365 know that the bullying experience that you mentioned, your parents' divorce, 0:14:34.965 --> 0:14:37.445 some of just the kind of rough and tumble tumult 0:14:37.485 --> 0:14:40.965 of our early adulthood and stepping out into the world 0:14:41.445 --> 0:14:45.445 as ourselves through to COVID. Why do you think that 0:14:45.445 --> 0:14:48.685 that's such a crucible of creativity for you, those moments, 0:14:48.685 --> 0:14:49.765 those periods of time. 0:14:50.365 --> 0:14:54.405 I think it's so related to It's like the thing 0:14:54.485 --> 0:14:58.565 that I'm really after, ultimately, like my life's purpose, I 0:14:58.605 --> 0:15:03.765 think is just connection, And it's like those sharing those 0:15:03.885 --> 0:15:07.325 most vulnerable moments seem to be like a key to 0:15:07.445 --> 0:15:13.205 the lock. Every time I've managed to fashion another one 0:15:13.245 --> 0:15:17.165 of those keys out of a really dark moment. What 0:15:17.285 --> 0:15:20.445 I get back from it. In the sharing of it 0:15:20.485 --> 0:15:25.205 is so much recognition and connection. It's so helpful to 0:15:25.285 --> 0:15:30.645 feel less alone selfishly, so I continue to want to 0:15:31.445 --> 0:15:35.685 sort of name those dark corners of myself again selfishly 0:15:36.085 --> 0:15:38.845 because it's medicine for me, but also I hope that 0:15:38.885 --> 0:15:42.245 it is medicine for someone else as well. But I 0:15:42.325 --> 0:15:46.445 just think human beings, we are so hardwired to carry 0:15:46.485 --> 0:15:51.045 so much shame about what is ugly or misunderstood about 0:15:51.085 --> 0:15:55.085 our own psychees. And the more I get into it, 0:15:55.125 --> 0:15:58.725 and the more I understand it and look at it 0:15:58.805 --> 0:16:01.925 and share, I just see how similar we all are 0:16:02.485 --> 0:16:05.405 and how much we all just want to belong. It 0:16:05.405 --> 0:16:08.925 feels like that same theme is that we just want 0:16:08.925 --> 0:16:14.325 to belong to each other and we don't quite know how. 0:16:14.885 --> 0:16:17.925 You know, Yeah, it's like part of life's work, soul work. 0:16:18.045 --> 0:16:21.605 It's absolutely true. You make music. I know when many 0:16:21.645 --> 0:16:24.205 times when I've reached for your music, it's in those 0:16:24.205 --> 0:16:27.445 moments where I'm like, I'm a weird alien on a 0:16:27.445 --> 0:16:29.725 weird planet and don't know how to be, you know, 0:16:29.925 --> 0:16:32.445 And then I'll listen to your music and be like, 0:16:32.965 --> 0:16:36.765 so is she and she's she's got words and melody 0:16:36.845 --> 0:16:40.605 and structure and texture to these, to these feelings, and 0:16:40.685 --> 0:16:44.965 speaking of those times where we feel particularly weird and alien. 0:16:45.085 --> 0:16:48.165 I'm going to fast forward to your thirty six year 0:16:48.205 --> 0:16:51.725 old self, if I've done the maths right, twenty fifteen ish, 0:16:52.445 --> 0:16:55.685 when you penned a letter to your seventeen year old self. 0:16:55.725 --> 0:16:57.725 I don't know if you remember this. I'm going to 0:16:57.765 --> 0:17:01.285 read you a little snippet of that letter. Okay. I 0:17:01.405 --> 0:17:03.965 had good friends that I spent a lot of time with, 0:17:04.485 --> 0:17:07.645 but also who I felt very lonely around. I obsessed 0:17:07.645 --> 0:17:10.005 over my body and convinced myself if I was fat 0:17:10.005 --> 0:17:15.165 and ugly, I was messy and emotional, broken hearted, lonely, 0:17:15.485 --> 0:17:22.765 a goofball, sensitive, silly, playful, a singer, an optimist, fearful, careful, 0:17:23.045 --> 0:17:27.325 care less, a writer, a joker, and a million other things. 0:17:27.925 --> 0:17:32.205 I was seventeen. I want to ask you if you 0:17:32.445 --> 0:17:36.005 remember why you wrote that letter, Why, at that time 0:17:36.045 --> 0:17:38.445 in your life you felt like connecting with that seventeen 0:17:38.525 --> 0:17:40.765 year old version of yourself. 0:17:41.005 --> 0:17:43.605 When I started writing, I had a book called Sounds 0:17:43.645 --> 0:17:45.885 Like Me, which is a collection of essays that I 0:17:45.925 --> 0:17:49.725 wrote the year I moved to New York City. I 0:17:49.725 --> 0:17:52.045 guess I would have been thirty four, thirty three or 0:17:52.085 --> 0:17:55.965 thirty four write around there. And in the writing of 0:17:56.045 --> 0:18:00.285 this book, I have a chapter where I started writing 0:18:00.365 --> 0:18:03.845 letters to myself. And I had heard of doing this 0:18:03.885 --> 0:18:06.805 as a journaling practice, as sort of like a like 0:18:06.845 --> 0:18:11.965 a therapeutic practice, and I found it to be incredibly 0:18:12.005 --> 0:18:15.765 helpful that I would sort of look back at a 0:18:15.765 --> 0:18:21.085 younger version of myself and with my wise and more 0:18:21.165 --> 0:18:26.085 experienced lens sort of see myself with some usually some 0:18:26.125 --> 0:18:29.725 sense of compassion there was I had no access to 0:18:29.925 --> 0:18:33.125 at the time. So I did start doing this as 0:18:33.165 --> 0:18:36.405 a practice where I started looking back, and from time 0:18:36.445 --> 0:18:41.285 to time I would see myself at sixteen, at twenty three, 0:18:41.525 --> 0:18:44.005 you know, just any out around any kind of major 0:18:44.045 --> 0:18:48.245 event of my life, and with this distance and perspective 0:18:48.445 --> 0:18:50.605 be able to sort of see what I think I 0:18:50.725 --> 0:18:55.925 was holding, and yeah, at seventeen. I mean, I'm imagining 0:18:55.965 --> 0:18:58.485 that that letter probably came out of this practice, and 0:18:58.485 --> 0:19:00.645 maybe I turned it in for an article or something. 0:19:00.685 --> 0:19:05.085 But I highly recommend it because sometimes if you can 0:19:05.125 --> 0:19:07.965 go back into these they sort of feel like very 0:19:08.005 --> 0:19:10.725 formative moment, like my parent's getting a divorce, for example, 0:19:10.845 --> 0:19:13.485 twelve years old. There is some part of me that 0:19:13.565 --> 0:19:17.165 got stuck right then because my world fell apart, and 0:19:17.205 --> 0:19:23.245 I think it created an underlying root of mistrust because 0:19:23.285 --> 0:19:26.965 I was so surprised. I just I remember being like, 0:19:27.965 --> 0:19:30.045 I did not see this coming at all. And if 0:19:30.045 --> 0:19:32.205 I didn't see this coming, what else am I not 0:19:32.205 --> 0:19:34.765 seeing coming? You know? So I think it created a 0:19:34.805 --> 0:19:39.805 sense of not quite paranoia, but some degree, some cousin 0:19:39.885 --> 0:19:43.165 of that feeling that carried on with me many many 0:19:43.165 --> 0:19:46.125 many years into the future and in relationships and being 0:19:46.125 --> 0:19:49.125 worried about what I wasn't aware of like this. I've 0:19:49.165 --> 0:19:52.565 talked about this trapdoor feeling that I had, which also 0:19:52.765 --> 0:19:56.845 related to being bullied because the people who would do 0:19:56.885 --> 0:20:00.725 the bullying were also my friends on Sundays, so like 0:20:00.765 --> 0:20:02.445 on Monday they'd be really sweet to me, and then 0:20:02.445 --> 0:20:04.405 all of a sudden, on Tuesday, I'm getting made fun 0:20:04.445 --> 0:20:07.445 of and I could never figure out why, why today 0:20:07.525 --> 0:20:11.205 what happened? So yeah, when I look back on that 0:20:11.325 --> 0:20:15.085 young version of me who was trying to metabolize all 0:20:15.085 --> 0:20:17.525 of that or make sense of it, and I can 0:20:17.605 --> 0:20:20.405 just see like, it doesn't make sense. There's no sense 0:20:20.445 --> 0:20:23.485 to being made baby, like, oh, you're just doing the 0:20:23.525 --> 0:20:27.445 best you can, and all you can do almost at 0:20:27.485 --> 0:20:30.925 every stage is learn to carry more compassion for yourself 0:20:31.325 --> 0:20:33.685 that you really most of the time that we really 0:20:33.725 --> 0:20:37.205 are doing the best we can, and that's like the 0:20:37.245 --> 0:20:37.885 best we can do. 0:20:38.325 --> 0:20:41.085 Well. You were carrying that seventeen year old self and 0:20:41.125 --> 0:20:44.565 all those other versions of yourself within you into the 0:20:44.605 --> 0:20:48.005 early two thousands when you were signed to Epic Records 0:20:48.845 --> 0:20:51.285 and you had a debut album that you'd been working 0:20:51.325 --> 0:20:55.645 on for years. You'd experienced that rejection that so many 0:20:55.725 --> 0:20:59.005 artists do up until that point, and then finally they 0:20:59.205 --> 0:21:02.925 with a capital T saw you. Right. What was that moment, 0:21:03.085 --> 0:21:06.725 like that kind of extraordinary validation of here you are, 0:21:06.805 --> 0:21:08.845 You're a signed artist, We're going to put a record 0:21:08.845 --> 0:21:09.645 out in the world. 0:21:10.045 --> 0:21:13.045 Oh man, it went. It was a direct line to 0:21:13.125 --> 0:21:16.805 imposter syndrome the whole I would say the first maybe 0:21:16.885 --> 0:21:21.725 ten years of my career as a working musician, I 0:21:21.925 --> 0:21:24.485 was like, who is going to come and tap me 0:21:24.525 --> 0:21:26.285 on the shoulder and tell me to get out of 0:21:26.325 --> 0:21:33.765 this party because I don't belong here. I was deeply insecure. 0:21:34.405 --> 0:21:38.005 I felt very sure about the music. The music always 0:21:38.045 --> 0:21:40.645 felt like from a young age that was always like 0:21:40.685 --> 0:21:45.365 a very I trusted the music, I really trusted where 0:21:45.365 --> 0:21:50.045 it came from. I trusted my intentions for it and 0:21:50.325 --> 0:21:53.965 with it. But in terms of the industry, I found 0:21:53.965 --> 0:21:56.045 it to feel. My therapist at the time used to 0:21:56.045 --> 0:21:58.805 talk about it like you've gone to the Mad Hatter's 0:21:58.805 --> 0:22:01.285 tea party, and I think that's really what it's like. 0:22:01.445 --> 0:22:05.005 I say that to young artists, like it's bizarre, and 0:22:05.045 --> 0:22:09.605 this whole, like the industry that's built around celebrity and 0:22:09.725 --> 0:22:14.845 having a big public platform and people wanting access to 0:22:14.885 --> 0:22:18.885 you in its own ways very dehumanizing. I mean, we 0:22:18.965 --> 0:22:21.645 all or I don't know, a lot of people have 0:22:21.685 --> 0:22:23.965 a lot of curiosity about it, and I understand that, 0:22:24.565 --> 0:22:28.885 but the feeling tone of being inside those rooms is 0:22:28.925 --> 0:22:33.245 really unsettling, I think for me. So I was grateful 0:22:33.285 --> 0:22:35.405 that I was a little bit older when it actually 0:22:35.885 --> 0:22:38.605 when I signed my deal and I started touring, and 0:22:38.645 --> 0:22:41.485 I had the best people around me. My bandmates were 0:22:41.525 --> 0:22:45.605 my best friends, and I think I was able to 0:22:45.725 --> 0:22:50.405 navigate some pretty sticky situations because I was surrounded by 0:22:50.485 --> 0:22:54.525 really good people and I kind of have never drank 0:22:54.525 --> 0:22:58.365 the kool aid about the industry. I just I feel 0:22:58.405 --> 0:23:02.805 like it's really shiny, but there's not a lot to it. 0:23:08.125 --> 0:23:11.405 Up. Next, Sarah Burrellas tells us what love Song is 0:23:11.405 --> 0:23:18.885 really about, and it might surprise you. What I'm finding 0:23:18.965 --> 0:23:22.805 so interesting about this insight into your experience of, you know, 0:23:22.845 --> 0:23:26.685 a decade long imposter syndrome, as you say, is that 0:23:27.045 --> 0:23:29.925 what came out of those those early years, the gift 0:23:29.965 --> 0:23:31.685 that you gave all of us, one of many, was 0:23:31.725 --> 0:23:35.125 obviously the song Love Song. Right yeah, And as I said, 0:23:35.125 --> 0:23:38.965 you know, longtime listener, first time conversation, But I am 0:23:39.485 --> 0:23:43.125