1 00:00:10,365 --> 00:00:13,085 Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mama May podcast. 2 00:00:13,885 --> 00:00:16,885 Speaker 2: Mamma Mayer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,885 --> 00:00:18,525 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:18,645 --> 00:00:21,605 Speaker 1: When that song first came out, I have a very 5 00:00:21,645 --> 00:00:25,285 Speaker 1: embarrassing journal entry where I was like, get ready, Sarah, 6 00:00:25,525 --> 00:00:28,845 Speaker 1: your life's gonna change and this song is gonna change 7 00:00:28,925 --> 00:00:32,205 Speaker 1: the world. It's like I was just like, my I 8 00:00:32,285 --> 00:00:34,525 Speaker 1: don't know if I'm gonna be able to handle how 9 00:00:34,565 --> 00:00:38,045 Speaker 1: famous I'm going to become. And then, of course, you know, 10 00:00:38,325 --> 00:00:39,925 Speaker 1: that song came out and nothing happened. 11 00:00:44,445 --> 00:00:48,165 Speaker 2: Hello. I'm Naima Brown, executive producer of No Filter and 12 00:00:48,245 --> 00:00:52,405 Speaker 2: your host for this special episode. Sarah Burrellis has always 13 00:00:52,445 --> 00:00:55,405 Speaker 2: written songs that sound like they were meant just for you, 14 00:00:56,085 --> 00:01:00,165 Speaker 2: songs about heartbreak, courage, and finding your way back to yourself. 15 00:01:00,685 --> 00:01:04,045 Speaker 2: You know her for Love song Brave, and She Used 16 00:01:04,085 --> 00:01:06,845 Speaker 2: to Be Mine. But behind those hits is a woman 17 00:01:06,885 --> 00:01:11,325 Speaker 2: who's constantly reinventing herself. She's been a pop star, a 18 00:01:11,445 --> 00:01:16,565 Speaker 2: Broadway composer, an actor, a mentor, and lately, a newlywed 19 00:01:17,005 --> 00:01:20,885 Speaker 2: learning what real peace feels like. Over the years, Sarah 20 00:01:20,885 --> 00:01:23,605 Speaker 2: has stepped away from the pop machine, faced her own 21 00:01:23,645 --> 00:01:27,605 Speaker 2: reflection and found her way back to joy, creativity, and love. 22 00:01:28,085 --> 00:01:31,405 Speaker 2: In this conversation, Sarah opens up about the insecurities that 23 00:01:31,485 --> 00:01:34,205 Speaker 2: shaped her the song she never thought would be a hit, 24 00:01:34,725 --> 00:01:38,085 Speaker 2: and how she learned to stop proving herself and just 25 00:01:38,165 --> 00:01:41,085 Speaker 2: make the art she believes in. I hope you enjoy 26 00:01:41,165 --> 00:01:46,925 Speaker 2: this conversation as much as I clearly did Sarah Farelli's 27 00:01:47,365 --> 00:01:51,605 Speaker 2: Welcome to No Filter. I am delighted to have you 28 00:01:51,645 --> 00:01:55,685 Speaker 2: here today for this conversation, and I wanted to start 29 00:01:55,685 --> 00:01:59,605 Speaker 2: with that five six seven year old girl in Eureka, 30 00:01:59,725 --> 00:02:03,565 Speaker 2: up in the mountains in northern California and ask you, well, 31 00:02:03,605 --> 00:02:05,405 Speaker 2: you're one of three daughters. Where are you in the 32 00:02:05,405 --> 00:02:06,525 Speaker 2: birth order? Sarah? 33 00:02:06,565 --> 00:02:07,405 Speaker 1: I was the baby? 34 00:02:07,845 --> 00:02:10,885 Speaker 2: Yeah, did you feel like they? Do you feel some 35 00:02:10,925 --> 00:02:12,245 Speaker 2: of that birth order stuff? 36 00:02:12,365 --> 00:02:16,645 Speaker 1: For sure? I think also because so my sister, my 37 00:02:16,685 --> 00:02:20,085 Speaker 1: two older sisters are three years apart, and then my 38 00:02:20,725 --> 00:02:24,845 Speaker 1: mom actually had a miscarriage that was also another three 39 00:02:24,925 --> 00:02:27,285 Speaker 1: years apart, So I was like a little bit further 40 00:02:27,405 --> 00:02:30,445 Speaker 1: away from my sisters in terms of age. So I 41 00:02:30,645 --> 00:02:33,565 Speaker 1: was very much the baby, and also kind of like, 42 00:02:33,725 --> 00:02:36,005 Speaker 1: you know, they had gone through this very challenging time 43 00:02:36,085 --> 00:02:38,445 Speaker 1: of losing a child, you know, losing a she carried 44 00:02:38,445 --> 00:02:41,885 Speaker 1: full term, so it was a really really hard time 45 00:02:41,925 --> 00:02:45,445 Speaker 1: for my mom, but then got pregnant again and I 46 00:02:45,485 --> 00:02:48,125 Speaker 1: they always only ever wanted to have three kids. So 47 00:02:48,365 --> 00:02:51,765 Speaker 1: I got in some ways really blessed by that tragedy 48 00:02:52,365 --> 00:02:55,045 Speaker 1: because otherwise I wouldn't have gotten a turn. And I'm 49 00:02:55,085 --> 00:02:57,525 Speaker 1: so grateful to be here, and so I did feel 50 00:02:57,605 --> 00:03:03,205 Speaker 1: very much the baby, Yeah, spoiled rotten, spoiled rotten, But. 51 00:03:03,205 --> 00:03:06,125 Speaker 2: I'd love to think about, you know that that again, 52 00:03:06,205 --> 00:03:11,005 Speaker 2: that child, that five six seven year old baby Sarah 53 00:03:11,165 --> 00:03:13,645 Speaker 2: at home with your two older sisters, with your parents, 54 00:03:13,645 --> 00:03:17,565 Speaker 2: Bonnie and Paul. What were they listening to? What was on? 55 00:03:17,765 --> 00:03:19,525 Speaker 2: Was it? Was it a record player or you know, 56 00:03:19,765 --> 00:03:22,005 Speaker 2: a tape player? What was coming through the speakers in 57 00:03:22,045 --> 00:03:23,005 Speaker 2: your childhood home. 58 00:03:23,485 --> 00:03:26,405 Speaker 1: There was a lot of you know, I think back 59 00:03:26,445 --> 00:03:28,525 Speaker 1: on it now. It's something I noticed when I got 60 00:03:28,565 --> 00:03:31,245 Speaker 1: to college because once I lived on my own, I 61 00:03:31,325 --> 00:03:34,525 Speaker 1: always had music playing, and I would come home and 62 00:03:34,565 --> 00:03:37,525 Speaker 1: I was realizing, like, oh, the family doesn't. They didn't 63 00:03:37,565 --> 00:03:41,005 Speaker 1: put on music that often. We didn't listen to music 64 00:03:41,125 --> 00:03:44,245 Speaker 1: except around Christmas time. So it's one of the reasons 65 00:03:44,245 --> 00:03:46,445 Speaker 1: why I loved Christmas time. So much is because we 66 00:03:46,445 --> 00:03:49,405 Speaker 1: were always listening to Christmas music. But there was my 67 00:03:49,485 --> 00:03:54,245 Speaker 1: older sister, Stacy, the firstborn, did a lot of musical 68 00:03:54,285 --> 00:03:56,405 Speaker 1: theater growing up, so I did listen to a lot 69 00:03:56,445 --> 00:04:00,005 Speaker 1: of musical theater. And then it was like the influences 70 00:04:00,045 --> 00:04:02,645 Speaker 1: of my other our middle sister. She was really into 71 00:04:02,725 --> 00:04:06,965 Speaker 1: like Pearl jam and she was really into oh God, 72 00:04:07,125 --> 00:04:10,445 Speaker 1: like some of the eighties like rock bands, and my 73 00:04:10,645 --> 00:04:16,045 Speaker 1: dad really loved more like Golden oldies. It was a 74 00:04:16,125 --> 00:04:20,285 Speaker 1: real mishmosh. We had everything from Marvin Gaye to Peter 75 00:04:20,405 --> 00:04:25,205 Speaker 1: Setara to like the Miss Saigon soundtrack or Chess or 76 00:04:25,245 --> 00:04:27,365 Speaker 1: something like that. It was all over the place. 77 00:04:27,125 --> 00:04:30,565 Speaker 2: Which was serving you're young, you know what would become 78 00:04:30,885 --> 00:04:36,645 Speaker 2: this songwriting artist as you grew older. How great to 79 00:04:36,685 --> 00:04:39,685 Speaker 2: have had all the colors, Yeah, on the palette totally 80 00:04:39,765 --> 00:04:42,045 Speaker 2: and kind of know exactly the range of things you 81 00:04:42,085 --> 00:04:44,685 Speaker 2: could work with and draw from. Did you have a 82 00:04:44,725 --> 00:04:45,925 Speaker 2: tape player in your own room? 83 00:04:46,005 --> 00:04:48,485 Speaker 1: I sure did. I had a tape player. I would 84 00:04:48,525 --> 00:04:50,605 Speaker 1: do the thing where I would record my favorite songs 85 00:04:50,645 --> 00:04:53,245 Speaker 1: on the radio and make mixed tapes so I could 86 00:04:53,325 --> 00:04:56,165 Speaker 1: listen back to my favorite songs. Yeah, I mean I 87 00:04:56,205 --> 00:05:00,645 Speaker 1: loved I really loved like sort of story songs, you know, 88 00:05:00,685 --> 00:05:03,005 Speaker 1: so the musical theater canon really spoke to me. I 89 00:05:03,045 --> 00:05:07,125 Speaker 1: loved listening for character and someone sort of getting from 90 00:05:07,125 --> 00:05:10,565 Speaker 1: point A to point B throughout the the journey of 91 00:05:10,605 --> 00:05:13,685 Speaker 1: a song. I just always loved all kinds of music. 92 00:05:13,805 --> 00:05:17,765 Speaker 1: So it definitely informed my ear as a writer too. 93 00:05:18,125 --> 00:05:21,125 Speaker 2: And so with an older sister Stacey, and musical theater 94 00:05:21,325 --> 00:05:24,445 Speaker 2: and all of these kind of musical influences around you, 95 00:05:25,525 --> 00:05:29,765 Speaker 2: were you, you know, doing the Three Sisters performances in 96 00:05:29,765 --> 00:05:32,445 Speaker 2: front of the fireplace kind of jam. 97 00:05:32,565 --> 00:05:35,125 Speaker 1: Yeah, big time, yep. Yeah, we were doing a lot 98 00:05:35,165 --> 00:05:38,805 Speaker 1: of amazing grace covers. We would make up little songs, 99 00:05:38,925 --> 00:05:42,365 Speaker 1: a lot of three part harmony. Yeah. It was you know, 100 00:05:42,565 --> 00:05:46,205 Speaker 1: music in the family being to this day, it's always 101 00:05:46,285 --> 00:05:49,645 Speaker 1: you know, some of the most joyful memories are when 102 00:05:49,645 --> 00:05:52,285 Speaker 1: we would put on music and have a little family 103 00:05:52,445 --> 00:05:55,285 Speaker 1: dance party or you know, everybody. I think so many 104 00:05:55,325 --> 00:05:57,405 Speaker 1: people relate to this. There's just there's so much to 105 00:05:57,485 --> 00:06:00,765 Speaker 1: hold people are, you know, families. Everyone's got a lot 106 00:06:00,765 --> 00:06:03,805 Speaker 1: of worries they carry around, and sometimes music is just 107 00:06:03,885 --> 00:06:08,205 Speaker 1: like a really beautiful permission to put it down for 108 00:06:08,245 --> 00:06:10,925 Speaker 1: a moment. It's almost just like a meditation and being present, 109 00:06:11,285 --> 00:06:14,845 Speaker 1: like let's just be here with this one song all together, 110 00:06:14,925 --> 00:06:17,765 Speaker 1: and then we'll go back to worrying about something at 111 00:06:17,805 --> 00:06:20,725 Speaker 1: work or what's happening at school or this or that. 112 00:06:20,925 --> 00:06:24,045 Speaker 1: You know. I just think it's there's an immediacy around 113 00:06:24,125 --> 00:06:27,125 Speaker 1: music that I really love how it transports people into 114 00:06:27,165 --> 00:06:27,925 Speaker 1: the present moment. 115 00:06:28,245 --> 00:06:33,205 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And you were raised Catholic. I've heard you talk 116 00:06:33,245 --> 00:06:37,485 Speaker 2: about the fact that that's not your spiritual expression any longer. 117 00:06:37,965 --> 00:06:41,685 Speaker 2: But growing up, was there choir at the church or 118 00:06:42,165 --> 00:06:45,325 Speaker 2: did that church experience have any sort of musical influence 119 00:06:45,325 --> 00:06:45,565 Speaker 2: on you? 120 00:06:46,205 --> 00:06:48,685 Speaker 1: Yes, most definitely. And there are some church songs that 121 00:06:48,765 --> 00:06:51,965 Speaker 1: I still really love. But you know, the Catholics are 122 00:06:52,005 --> 00:06:55,045 Speaker 1: not known for their robust musical expression. 123 00:06:55,445 --> 00:06:57,965 Speaker 2: I think of like the you know, the Gregorian Chance 124 00:06:58,045 --> 00:06:59,845 Speaker 2: that we all got really obsessed with for like a 125 00:06:59,885 --> 00:07:00,605 Speaker 2: month and the night. 126 00:07:00,605 --> 00:07:05,125 Speaker 1: It's a little more somber. Yeah, it's a little more 127 00:07:05,165 --> 00:07:09,485 Speaker 1: of a somber experience at church. But there are some 128 00:07:10,165 --> 00:07:13,165 Speaker 1: of the church songs that were saying you know on 129 00:07:13,285 --> 00:07:17,685 Speaker 1: Sundays that I still think have just really extraordinarily beautiful melodies. 130 00:07:18,085 --> 00:07:20,605 Speaker 1: And the thing that I loved actually about growing up 131 00:07:20,965 --> 00:07:25,565 Speaker 1: within a religion was just the idea that there is 132 00:07:25,605 --> 00:07:28,925 Speaker 1: something bigger, that it's not just you know, that we 133 00:07:29,125 --> 00:07:33,005 Speaker 1: are not alone in this life experience, that there is 134 00:07:34,005 --> 00:07:38,365 Speaker 1: that faith is worth nurturing and exploring. And so, you know, 135 00:07:39,205 --> 00:07:42,485 Speaker 1: Catholicism obviously has a lot of issues, and I have 136 00:07:42,485 --> 00:07:45,365 Speaker 1: a lot of issues with some of what still is 137 00:07:45,365 --> 00:07:47,645 Speaker 1: at play in the church these days. But I did 138 00:07:47,845 --> 00:07:53,205 Speaker 1: appreciate growing up in a faith community, and I think 139 00:07:53,285 --> 00:07:57,645 Speaker 1: in a way that that's even what like a beautiful 140 00:07:57,765 --> 00:07:59,845 Speaker 1: set of friends can offer you, is like these little 141 00:07:59,885 --> 00:08:03,725 Speaker 1: mini faith communities where we you know, you share values 142 00:08:03,765 --> 00:08:07,365 Speaker 1: and you share ideology and you sort of look towards 143 00:08:07,485 --> 00:08:11,485 Speaker 1: the future with each other in mind. I feel God everywhere, 144 00:08:11,805 --> 00:08:15,285 Speaker 1: not necessarily in church for me anymore. But some people 145 00:08:15,325 --> 00:08:18,085 Speaker 1: that's where they really feel that experience of connection and 146 00:08:18,125 --> 00:08:20,725 Speaker 1: communion with something bigger than themselves. 147 00:08:20,845 --> 00:08:23,965 Speaker 2: I think so many people relate to that, and do 148 00:08:24,005 --> 00:08:27,285 Speaker 2: you when you think about that idea of something bigger 149 00:08:27,325 --> 00:08:29,885 Speaker 2: than ourselves and what it means for you to connect 150 00:08:29,885 --> 00:08:32,685 Speaker 2: with what God means to you, is that where you 151 00:08:32,845 --> 00:08:35,045 Speaker 2: think that creative spark starts. 152 00:08:35,525 --> 00:08:39,125 Speaker 1: Yes, one, and that has been my sort of like 153 00:08:39,205 --> 00:08:42,605 Speaker 1: faith practice from little from when I was six seven eight, 154 00:08:42,645 --> 00:08:45,725 Speaker 1: you know, writing songs for the first time. There was 155 00:08:45,805 --> 00:08:47,605 Speaker 1: some you know, I hear people refer to it as 156 00:08:47,885 --> 00:08:50,405 Speaker 1: source with the capital S, and Obrah talks about it, 157 00:08:50,485 --> 00:08:53,845 Speaker 1: source with the capital S, whatever that thing is that 158 00:08:53,885 --> 00:08:56,925 Speaker 1: we're plugged into, and we all are plugged into this 159 00:08:57,645 --> 00:09:01,565 Speaker 1: life force in some way, shape or form. But that 160 00:09:01,885 --> 00:09:05,885 Speaker 1: channel for me always carried music with it, and so 161 00:09:06,445 --> 00:09:11,525 Speaker 1: every time I felt really moved by being alive, it 162 00:09:11,605 --> 00:09:14,165 Speaker 1: was related to music, whether the making of music or 163 00:09:14,165 --> 00:09:18,005 Speaker 1: the listening of music, or that artistic exchange was always present. 164 00:09:18,605 --> 00:09:23,605 Speaker 1: And so yeah, songwriting for me very quickly became like prayer. 165 00:09:24,165 --> 00:09:27,405 Speaker 1: It was like an offering, was to try to create 166 00:09:27,885 --> 00:09:30,765 Speaker 1: a wide open channel for something to come through that 167 00:09:31,485 --> 00:09:34,445 Speaker 1: hopefully would be of service to the world, but was 168 00:09:34,485 --> 00:09:36,805 Speaker 1: also selfish because I was working through my own shit 169 00:09:36,885 --> 00:09:40,445 Speaker 1: and trying to make sense of a broken heart or 170 00:09:40,685 --> 00:09:44,365 Speaker 1: you know, grief in some way. But it definitely feels 171 00:09:44,405 --> 00:09:47,045 Speaker 1: connected to creator. 172 00:09:47,965 --> 00:09:51,565 Speaker 2: Well, you started to share more and more of that expression, 173 00:09:52,045 --> 00:09:54,565 Speaker 2: maybe outside of the privacy of your own journal in 174 00:09:54,605 --> 00:09:57,805 Speaker 2: your own bedroom and your own cassette player. I've heard 175 00:09:57,845 --> 00:10:00,845 Speaker 2: you say that it was around the kind of adolescent's 176 00:10:00,925 --> 00:10:04,805 Speaker 2: early teen years, that eighth grade time when you started 177 00:10:04,845 --> 00:10:08,005 Speaker 2: to feel for the first time that kind of external 178 00:10:08,165 --> 00:10:12,045 Speaker 2: validation about your v local talent. Tell me what you 179 00:10:12,085 --> 00:10:13,445 Speaker 2: remember about that moment. 180 00:10:13,685 --> 00:10:20,525 Speaker 1: Oh man, I feel like, you know, my childhood was 181 00:10:22,125 --> 00:10:28,605 Speaker 1: almost bifurcated into some pretty challenging experiences at my Catholic school. 182 00:10:28,605 --> 00:10:31,685 Speaker 1: Growing up, I was kind of singled out and bullied 183 00:10:31,805 --> 00:10:35,325 Speaker 1: like a lot of kids are in, you know, in 184 00:10:35,365 --> 00:10:39,765 Speaker 1: elementary school. And then I had these like sort of 185 00:10:40,725 --> 00:10:46,085 Speaker 1: incredible free experiences in the theater. I started doing community 186 00:10:46,165 --> 00:10:48,885 Speaker 1: theater at a pretty young age, and so I was 187 00:10:48,965 --> 00:10:53,365 Speaker 1: having these very different experiences. And so when I started 188 00:10:53,445 --> 00:10:57,405 Speaker 1: singing at school and got kind of like the integration 189 00:10:57,605 --> 00:11:00,725 Speaker 1: of that piece of me that felt so free, it 190 00:11:00,765 --> 00:11:03,525 Speaker 1: really felt like vocal expression was the thing that brought 191 00:11:03,565 --> 00:11:08,685 Speaker 1: me there where people could finally see my I hate 192 00:11:08,685 --> 00:11:12,045 Speaker 1: to say, but it was almost like I just I 193 00:11:12,125 --> 00:11:15,605 Speaker 1: didn't have value until I was singing. 194 00:11:15,765 --> 00:11:17,645 Speaker 2: Well, at that age, it would have felt very much 195 00:11:17,765 --> 00:11:21,245 Speaker 2: like value. Right, Like, looking back now, with the wisdom 196 00:11:21,565 --> 00:11:24,085 Speaker 2: as a forty five year old woman, you might reach 197 00:11:24,165 --> 00:11:26,965 Speaker 2: for a better way to phrase that, right with the 198 00:11:27,005 --> 00:11:29,485 Speaker 2: work you've done to this point, but at that time, 199 00:11:30,125 --> 00:11:33,525 Speaker 2: it's like, oh, here is my words, here's that dopamine hit, 200 00:11:33,805 --> 00:11:36,405 Speaker 2: totally of external praise. 201 00:11:36,285 --> 00:11:39,365 Speaker 1: And that sense that we're always just we just want 202 00:11:39,405 --> 00:11:43,005 Speaker 1: to belong. Yeah, and I just didn't. I was being 203 00:11:43,045 --> 00:11:46,365 Speaker 1: told over and over again that I didn't belong. And 204 00:11:46,405 --> 00:11:49,765 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, Oh, we like you, you 205 00:11:49,925 --> 00:11:53,285 Speaker 1: come close, let's you know, let's be friends. It was 206 00:11:53,325 --> 00:11:56,445 Speaker 1: really interesting. It makes me think about the actually fast 207 00:11:56,485 --> 00:11:59,365 Speaker 1: forwarding many years into the pandemic, when like sort of 208 00:11:59,405 --> 00:12:02,525 Speaker 1: that part of you know, being an artist goes away, 209 00:12:02,725 --> 00:12:06,245 Speaker 1: and I was very confronted with like, who am I 210 00:12:06,245 --> 00:12:09,285 Speaker 1: if I'm not singing? Like? Who am I if I'm 211 00:12:09,485 --> 00:12:15,445 Speaker 1: not making music for people? Is anybody like that person? Like, 212 00:12:16,045 --> 00:12:19,805 Speaker 1: It's so funny how those seeds of the self doubt 213 00:12:19,965 --> 00:12:24,165 Speaker 1: or just those pieces of your identity get planted so young, 214 00:12:24,285 --> 00:12:26,845 Speaker 1: and they're still very much at play all these many 215 00:12:26,925 --> 00:12:27,485 Speaker 1: years later. 216 00:12:27,765 --> 00:12:29,965 Speaker 2: Do you see that as one of the gifts almost 217 00:12:30,125 --> 00:12:33,925 Speaker 2: of that just surreal time that I think so many 218 00:12:33,965 --> 00:12:37,365 Speaker 2: of us are still metabolizing, And every time somebody brings 219 00:12:37,445 --> 00:12:40,685 Speaker 2: up the pandemic or COVID, I almost feel like the 220 00:12:40,725 --> 00:12:45,125 Speaker 2: memories almost seem foggy and fuzzy. It's just this collective, 221 00:12:45,565 --> 00:12:49,485 Speaker 2: bizarre trauma that we all experienced on different levels. But 222 00:12:49,525 --> 00:12:51,845 Speaker 2: I think so many people did experience a kind of 223 00:12:51,845 --> 00:12:56,685 Speaker 2: break down of identity or a shifting or reshuffling of self. 224 00:12:57,005 --> 00:13:00,045 Speaker 2: Would you say that was one of the small silver 225 00:13:00,125 --> 00:13:02,005 Speaker 2: linings that came out of that experience, for you to 226 00:13:02,085 --> 00:13:04,565 Speaker 2: have to ask yourself those questions about what is your 227 00:13:04,605 --> 00:13:07,365 Speaker 2: currency if it's not bringing us music? 228 00:13:07,645 --> 00:13:11,765 Speaker 1: Definitely, I think that was as confronting and uncomfortable as 229 00:13:11,805 --> 00:13:14,965 Speaker 1: it was, it was very helpful even just to pose 230 00:13:15,005 --> 00:13:18,085 Speaker 1: the question without knowing the answer. Thank God, I don't 231 00:13:18,085 --> 00:13:20,685 Speaker 1: have to answer that question who am I without it? 232 00:13:20,805 --> 00:13:23,085 Speaker 1: Because I get to that is a part of my 233 00:13:23,245 --> 00:13:27,405 Speaker 1: expression here on earth right now, you know. But yeah, 234 00:13:27,485 --> 00:13:31,085 Speaker 1: it was a really it's a really interesting that, you know, 235 00:13:31,645 --> 00:13:35,285 Speaker 1: the places where we get rigid or solid about who 236 00:13:35,325 --> 00:13:38,965 Speaker 1: we are and who we are not, it's I find 237 00:13:38,965 --> 00:13:42,805 Speaker 1: that to be really fertile ground for exploration. And definitely, 238 00:13:43,165 --> 00:13:46,685 Speaker 1: you know, my meditation practice got much stronger during that time. 239 00:13:47,525 --> 00:13:49,885 Speaker 1: I also got on medication for the first time, which 240 00:13:49,925 --> 00:13:53,365 Speaker 1: was a real life saver because I was not metabolizing 241 00:13:53,405 --> 00:13:57,165 Speaker 1: that time in a healthy way. So yeah, there were 242 00:13:57,205 --> 00:13:59,845 Speaker 1: a lot of silver linings that have really stayed with 243 00:13:59,885 --> 00:14:02,605 Speaker 1: me from that time. And though I'm not dying to 244 00:14:02,645 --> 00:14:06,845 Speaker 1: go back, I guess in a way i'm not. I 245 00:14:06,885 --> 00:14:09,525 Speaker 1: am glad it happened in some kind of way that 246 00:14:09,645 --> 00:14:10,365 Speaker 1: was necessary. 247 00:14:12,645 --> 00:14:16,085 Speaker 2: Don't go anywhere after this break. Sarah Burrellis revisits a 248 00:14:16,165 --> 00:14:19,365 Speaker 2: letter to her seventeen year old self and opens up 249 00:14:19,445 --> 00:14:27,285 Speaker 2: about the pressures of fitting in. You've always alchemized. You know, 250 00:14:27,325 --> 00:14:30,285 Speaker 2: these periods of grief and tumult in your life. I 251 00:14:30,325 --> 00:14:34,365 Speaker 2: know that the bullying experience that you mentioned, your parents' divorce, 252 00:14:34,965 --> 00:14:37,445 Speaker 2: some of just the kind of rough and tumble tumult 253 00:14:37,485 --> 00:14:40,965 Speaker 2: of our early adulthood and stepping out into the world 254 00:14:41,445 --> 00:14:45,445 Speaker 2: as ourselves through to COVID. Why do you think that 255 00:14:45,445 --> 00:14:48,685 Speaker 2: that's such a crucible of creativity for you, those moments, 256 00:14:48,685 --> 00:14:49,765 Speaker 2: those periods of time. 257 00:14:50,365 --> 00:14:54,405 Speaker 1: I think it's so related to It's like the thing 258 00:14:54,485 --> 00:14:58,565 Speaker 1: that I'm really after, ultimately, like my life's purpose, I 259 00:14:58,605 --> 00:15:03,765 Speaker 1: think is just connection, And it's like those sharing those 260 00:15:03,885 --> 00:15:07,325 Speaker 1: most vulnerable moments seem to be like a key to 261 00:15:07,445 --> 00:15:13,205 Speaker 1: the lock. Every time I've managed to fashion another one 262 00:15:13,245 --> 00:15:17,165 Speaker 1: of those keys out of a really dark moment. What 263 00:15:17,285 --> 00:15:20,445 Speaker 1: I get back from it. In the sharing of it 264 00:15:20,485 --> 00:15:25,205 Speaker 1: is so much recognition and connection. It's so helpful to 265 00:15:25,285 --> 00:15:30,645 Speaker 1: feel less alone selfishly, so I continue to want to 266 00:15:31,445 --> 00:15:35,685 Speaker 1: sort of name those dark corners of myself again selfishly 267 00:15:36,085 --> 00:15:38,845 Speaker 1: because it's medicine for me, but also I hope that 268 00:15:38,885 --> 00:15:42,245 Speaker 1: it is medicine for someone else as well. But I 269 00:15:42,325 --> 00:15:46,445 Speaker 1: just think human beings, we are so hardwired to carry 270 00:15:46,485 --> 00:15:51,045 Speaker 1: so much shame about what is ugly or misunderstood about 271 00:15:51,085 --> 00:15:55,085 Speaker 1: our own psychees. And the more I get into it, 272 00:15:55,125 --> 00:15:58,725 Speaker 1: and the more I understand it and look at it 273 00:15:58,805 --> 00:16:01,925 Speaker 1: and share, I just see how similar we all are 274 00:16:02,485 --> 00:16:05,405 Speaker 1: and how much we all just want to belong. It 275 00:16:05,405 --> 00:16:08,925 Speaker 1: feels like that same theme is that we just want 276 00:16:08,925 --> 00:16:14,325 Speaker 1: to belong to each other and we don't quite know how. 277 00:16:14,885 --> 00:16:17,925 Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, it's like part of life's work, soul work. 278 00:16:18,045 --> 00:16:21,605 Speaker 2: It's absolutely true. You make music. I know when many 279 00:16:21,645 --> 00:16:24,205 Speaker 2: times when I've reached for your music, it's in those 280 00:16:24,205 --> 00:16:27,445 Speaker 2: moments where I'm like, I'm a weird alien on a 281 00:16:27,445 --> 00:16:29,725 Speaker 2: weird planet and don't know how to be, you know, 282 00:16:29,925 --> 00:16:32,445 Speaker 2: And then I'll listen to your music and be like, 283 00:16:32,965 --> 00:16:36,765 Speaker 2: so is she and she's she's got words and melody 284 00:16:36,845 --> 00:16:40,605 Speaker 2: and structure and texture to these, to these feelings, and 285 00:16:40,685 --> 00:16:44,965 Speaker 2: speaking of those times where we feel particularly weird and alien. 286 00:16:45,085 --> 00:16:48,165 Speaker 2: I'm going to fast forward to your thirty six year 287 00:16:48,205 --> 00:16:51,725 Speaker 2: old self, if I've done the maths right, twenty fifteen ish, 288 00:16:52,445 --> 00:16:55,685 Speaker 2: when you penned a letter to your seventeen year old self. 289 00:16:55,725 --> 00:16:57,725 Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember this. I'm going to 290 00:16:57,765 --> 00:17:01,285 Speaker 2: read you a little snippet of that letter. Okay. I 291 00:17:01,405 --> 00:17:03,965 Speaker 2: had good friends that I spent a lot of time with, 292 00:17:04,485 --> 00:17:07,645 Speaker 2: but also who I felt very lonely around. I obsessed 293 00:17:07,645 --> 00:17:10,005 Speaker 2: over my body and convinced myself if I was fat 294 00:17:10,005 --> 00:17:15,165 Speaker 2: and ugly, I was messy and emotional, broken hearted, lonely, 295 00:17:15,485 --> 00:17:22,765 Speaker 2: a goofball, sensitive, silly, playful, a singer, an optimist, fearful, careful, 296 00:17:23,045 --> 00:17:27,325 Speaker 2: care less, a writer, a joker, and a million other things. 297 00:17:27,925 --> 00:17:32,205 Speaker 2: I was seventeen. I want to ask you if you 298 00:17:32,445 --> 00:17:36,005 Speaker 2: remember why you wrote that letter, Why, at that time 299 00:17:36,045 --> 00:17:38,445 Speaker 2: in your life you felt like connecting with that seventeen 300 00:17:38,525 --> 00:17:40,765 Speaker 2: year old version of yourself. 301 00:17:41,005 --> 00:17:43,605 Speaker 1: When I started writing, I had a book called Sounds 302 00:17:43,645 --> 00:17:45,885 Speaker 1: Like Me, which is a collection of essays that I 303 00:17:45,925 --> 00:17:49,725 Speaker 1: wrote the year I moved to New York City. I 304 00:17:49,725 --> 00:17:52,045 Speaker 1: guess I would have been thirty four, thirty three or 305 00:17:52,085 --> 00:17:55,965 Speaker 1: thirty four write around there. And in the writing of 306 00:17:56,045 --> 00:18:00,285 Speaker 1: this book, I have a chapter where I started writing 307 00:18:00,365 --> 00:18:03,845 Speaker 1: letters to myself. And I had heard of doing this 308 00:18:03,885 --> 00:18:06,805 Speaker 1: as a journaling practice, as sort of like a like 309 00:18:06,845 --> 00:18:11,965 Speaker 1: a therapeutic practice, and I found it to be incredibly 310 00:18:12,005 --> 00:18:15,765 Speaker 1: helpful that I would sort of look back at a 311 00:18:15,765 --> 00:18:21,085 Speaker 1: younger version of myself and with my wise and more 312 00:18:21,165 --> 00:18:26,085 Speaker 1: experienced lens sort of see myself with some usually some 313 00:18:26,125 --> 00:18:29,725 Speaker 1: sense of compassion there was I had no access to 314 00:18:29,925 --> 00:18:33,125 Speaker 1: at the time. So I did start doing this as 315 00:18:33,165 --> 00:18:36,405 Speaker 1: a practice where I started looking back, and from time 316 00:18:36,445 --> 00:18:41,285 Speaker 1: to time I would see myself at sixteen, at twenty three, 317 00:18:41,525 --> 00:18:44,005 Speaker 1: you know, just any out around any kind of major 318 00:18:44,045 --> 00:18:48,245 Speaker 1: event of my life, and with this distance and perspective 319 00:18:48,445 --> 00:18:50,605 Speaker 1: be able to sort of see what I think I 320 00:18:50,725 --> 00:18:55,925 Speaker 1: was holding, and yeah, at seventeen. I mean, I'm imagining 321 00:18:55,965 --> 00:18:58,485 Speaker 1: that that letter probably came out of this practice, and 322 00:18:58,485 --> 00:19:00,645 Speaker 1: maybe I turned it in for an article or something. 323 00:19:00,685 --> 00:19:05,085 Speaker 1: But I highly recommend it because sometimes if you can 324 00:19:05,125 --> 00:19:07,965 Speaker 1: go back into these they sort of feel like very 325 00:19:08,005 --> 00:19:10,725 Speaker 1: formative moment, like my parent's getting a divorce, for example, 326 00:19:10,845 --> 00:19:13,485 Speaker 1: twelve years old. There is some part of me that 327 00:19:13,565 --> 00:19:17,165 Speaker 1: got stuck right then because my world fell apart, and 328 00:19:17,205 --> 00:19:23,245 Speaker 1: I think it created an underlying root of mistrust because 329 00:19:23,285 --> 00:19:26,965 Speaker 1: I was so surprised. I just I remember being like, 330 00:19:27,965 --> 00:19:30,045 Speaker 1: I did not see this coming at all. And if 331 00:19:30,045 --> 00:19:32,205 Speaker 1: I didn't see this coming, what else am I not 332 00:19:32,205 --> 00:19:34,765 Speaker 1: seeing coming? You know? So I think it created a 333 00:19:34,805 --> 00:19:39,805 Speaker 1: sense of not quite paranoia, but some degree, some cousin 334 00:19:39,885 --> 00:19:43,165 Speaker 1: of that feeling that carried on with me many many 335 00:19:43,165 --> 00:19:46,125 Speaker 1: many years into the future and in relationships and being 336 00:19:46,125 --> 00:19:49,125 Speaker 1: worried about what I wasn't aware of like this. I've 337 00:19:49,165 --> 00:19:52,565 Speaker 1: talked about this trapdoor feeling that I had, which also 338 00:19:52,765 --> 00:19:56,845 Speaker 1: related to being bullied because the people who would do 339 00:19:56,885 --> 00:20:00,725 Speaker 1: the bullying were also my friends on Sundays, so like 340 00:20:00,765 --> 00:20:02,445 Speaker 1: on Monday they'd be really sweet to me, and then 341 00:20:02,445 --> 00:20:04,405 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, on Tuesday, I'm getting made fun 342 00:20:04,445 --> 00:20:07,445 Speaker 1: of and I could never figure out why, why today 343 00:20:07,525 --> 00:20:11,205 Speaker 1: what happened? So yeah, when I look back on that 344 00:20:11,325 --> 00:20:15,085 Speaker 1: young version of me who was trying to metabolize all 345 00:20:15,085 --> 00:20:17,525 Speaker 1: of that or make sense of it, and I can 346 00:20:17,605 --> 00:20:20,405 Speaker 1: just see like, it doesn't make sense. There's no sense 347 00:20:20,445 --> 00:20:23,485 Speaker 1: to being made baby, like, oh, you're just doing the 348 00:20:23,525 --> 00:20:27,445 Speaker 1: best you can, and all you can do almost at 349 00:20:27,485 --> 00:20:30,925 Speaker 1: every stage is learn to carry more compassion for yourself 350 00:20:31,325 --> 00:20:33,685 Speaker 1: that you really most of the time that we really 351 00:20:33,725 --> 00:20:37,205 Speaker 1: are doing the best we can, and that's like the 352 00:20:37,245 --> 00:20:37,885 Speaker 1: best we can do. 353 00:20:38,325 --> 00:20:41,085 Speaker 2: Well. You were carrying that seventeen year old self and 354 00:20:41,125 --> 00:20:44,565 Speaker 2: all those other versions of yourself within you into the 355 00:20:44,605 --> 00:20:48,005 Speaker 2: early two thousands when you were signed to Epic Records 356 00:20:48,845 --> 00:20:51,285 Speaker 2: and you had a debut album that you'd been working 357 00:20:51,325 --> 00:20:55,645 Speaker 2: on for years. You'd experienced that rejection that so many 358 00:20:55,725 --> 00:20:59,005 Speaker 2: artists do up until that point, and then finally they 359 00:20:59,205 --> 00:21:02,925 Speaker 2: with a capital T saw you. Right. What was that moment, 360 00:21:03,085 --> 00:21:06,725 Speaker 2: like that kind of extraordinary validation of here you are, 361 00:21:06,805 --> 00:21:08,845 Speaker 2: You're a signed artist, We're going to put a record 362 00:21:08,845 --> 00:21:09,645 Speaker 2: out in the world. 363 00:21:10,045 --> 00:21:13,045 Speaker 1: Oh man, it went. It was a direct line to 364 00:21:13,125 --> 00:21:16,805 Speaker 1: imposter syndrome the whole I would say the first maybe 365 00:21:16,885 --> 00:21:21,725 Speaker 1: ten years of my career as a working musician, I 366 00:21:21,925 --> 00:21:24,485 Speaker 1: was like, who is going to come and tap me 367 00:21:24,525 --> 00:21:26,285 Speaker 1: on the shoulder and tell me to get out of 368 00:21:26,325 --> 00:21:33,765 Speaker 1: this party because I don't belong here. I was deeply insecure. 369 00:21:34,405 --> 00:21:38,005 Speaker 1: I felt very sure about the music. The music always 370 00:21:38,045 --> 00:21:40,645 Speaker 1: felt like from a young age that was always like 371 00:21:40,685 --> 00:21:45,365 Speaker 1: a very I trusted the music, I really trusted where 372 00:21:45,365 --> 00:21:50,045 Speaker 1: it came from. I trusted my intentions for it and 373 00:21:50,325 --> 00:21:53,965 Speaker 1: with it. But in terms of the industry, I found 374 00:21:53,965 --> 00:21:56,045 Speaker 1: it to feel. My therapist at the time used to 375 00:21:56,045 --> 00:21:58,805 Speaker 1: talk about it like you've gone to the Mad Hatter's 376 00:21:58,805 --> 00:22:01,285 Speaker 1: tea party, and I think that's really what it's like. 377 00:22:01,445 --> 00:22:05,005 Speaker 1: I say that to young artists, like it's bizarre, and 378 00:22:05,045 --> 00:22:09,605 Speaker 1: this whole, like the industry that's built around celebrity and 379 00:22:09,725 --> 00:22:14,845 Speaker 1: having a big public platform and people wanting access to 380 00:22:14,885 --> 00:22:18,885 Speaker 1: you in its own ways very dehumanizing. I mean, we 381 00:22:18,965 --> 00:22:21,645 Speaker 1: all or I don't know, a lot of people have 382 00:22:21,685 --> 00:22:23,965 Speaker 1: a lot of curiosity about it, and I understand that, 383 00:22:24,565 --> 00:22:28,885 Speaker 1: but the feeling tone of being inside those rooms is 384 00:22:28,925 --> 00:22:33,245 Speaker 1: really unsettling, I think for me. So I was grateful 385 00:22:33,285 --> 00:22:35,405 Speaker 1: that I was a little bit older when it actually 386 00:22:35,885 --> 00:22:38,605 Speaker 1: when I signed my deal and I started touring, and 387 00:22:38,645 --> 00:22:41,485 Speaker 1: I had the best people around me. My bandmates were 388 00:22:41,525 --> 00:22:45,605 Speaker 1: my best friends, and I think I was able to 389 00:22:45,725 --> 00:22:50,405 Speaker 1: navigate some pretty sticky situations because I was surrounded by 390 00:22:50,485 --> 00:22:54,525 Speaker 1: really good people and I kind of have never drank 391 00:22:54,525 --> 00:22:58,365 Speaker 1: the kool aid about the industry. I just I feel 392 00:22:58,405 --> 00:23:02,805 Speaker 1: like it's really shiny, but there's not a lot to it. 393 00:23:08,125 --> 00:23:11,405 Speaker 2: Up. Next, Sarah Burrellas tells us what love Song is 394 00:23:11,405 --> 00:23:18,885 Speaker 2: really about, and it might surprise you. What I'm finding 395 00:23:18,965 --> 00:23:22,805 Speaker 2: so interesting about this insight into your experience of, you know, 396 00:23:22,845 --> 00:23:26,685 Speaker 2: a decade long imposter syndrome, as you say, is that 397 00:23:27,045 --> 00:23:29,925 Speaker 2: what came out of those those early years, the gift 398 00:23:29,965 --> 00:23:31,685 Speaker 2: that you gave all of us, one of many, was 399 00:23:31,725 --> 00:23:35,125 Speaker 2: obviously the song Love Song. Right yeah, And as I said, 400 00:23:35,125 --> 00:23:38,965 Speaker 2: you know, longtime listener, first time conversation, But I am 401 00:23:39,485 --> 00:23:43,125 Speaker 2: embarrassed to admit that it was only in the preparation 402 00:23:43,245 --> 00:23:47,765 Speaker 2: for today that I realized I'd misinterpreted that song. I, 403 00:23:47,925 --> 00:23:50,925 Speaker 2: like so many people, also thought that it was about, 404 00:23:51,205 --> 00:23:53,965 Speaker 2: you know, a page out of the diary of a 405 00:23:53,965 --> 00:23:57,165 Speaker 2: love story, of an experience of a relationship. It's not. 406 00:23:57,965 --> 00:24:00,245 Speaker 2: And I'm going to ask you to tell listeners what 407 00:24:00,325 --> 00:24:04,285 Speaker 2: that song is really about in the context of how 408 00:24:04,325 --> 00:24:06,045 Speaker 2: interesting it is to me to hear you say that 409 00:24:06,125 --> 00:24:09,085 Speaker 2: you felt this sort of as you say, imposter syndrome, 410 00:24:09,565 --> 00:24:12,245 Speaker 2: maybe not a sense of belonging, and yet still a 411 00:24:12,325 --> 00:24:16,165 Speaker 2: lot of courage to push back and protect yourself as 412 00:24:16,205 --> 00:24:21,005 Speaker 2: an artist and protect your work so what was love song? 413 00:24:21,165 --> 00:24:22,845 Speaker 2: What is love song really about? 414 00:24:23,445 --> 00:24:29,685 Speaker 1: Love song is really about the tension between being in 415 00:24:29,725 --> 00:24:35,045 Speaker 1: a commercial field as an artist and understanding that there 416 00:24:35,125 --> 00:24:38,205 Speaker 1: was this sort of tacit request from my record label 417 00:24:38,245 --> 00:24:41,245 Speaker 1: at the time to write not a love song per se, 418 00:24:41,285 --> 00:24:43,565 Speaker 1: but a pop song, a hit song, a radio song. 419 00:24:44,365 --> 00:24:49,725 Speaker 1: And I knew that's what they wanted from me, And 420 00:24:50,525 --> 00:24:53,405 Speaker 1: if I'm honest, if I had known how to do it, 421 00:24:53,445 --> 00:24:55,885 Speaker 1: I probably would have done it. I think love song 422 00:24:56,005 --> 00:24:57,765 Speaker 1: that the irony of love song is that it came 423 00:24:57,805 --> 00:25:03,085 Speaker 1: out of me saying, literally, like on my knees, praying, saying, 424 00:25:03,165 --> 00:25:06,005 Speaker 1: let me, please help me write something that helps me 425 00:25:06,125 --> 00:25:10,245 Speaker 1: remember who I am because I don't keep trying, and 426 00:25:10,285 --> 00:25:12,885 Speaker 1: they're saying like, Nope, it's not that, Nope, it's not that, 427 00:25:13,685 --> 00:25:20,085 Speaker 1: and I was losing the thread. So Love Song sort 428 00:25:20,085 --> 00:25:23,645 Speaker 1: of tumbled out one afternoon in my little rehearsal space, 429 00:25:24,325 --> 00:25:28,765 Speaker 1: and I turned it in being certain would have bet 430 00:25:28,885 --> 00:25:31,805 Speaker 1: my last dollar on the fact that they would have 431 00:25:31,805 --> 00:25:35,885 Speaker 1: hated that song and said, Nope, it's not that. But hilariously, 432 00:25:36,245 --> 00:25:39,285 Speaker 1: they loved it and also didn't know it was about them, 433 00:25:39,485 --> 00:25:42,045 Speaker 1: So we just kept that our cheeky little secret for 434 00:25:42,365 --> 00:25:43,085 Speaker 1: a long time. 435 00:25:43,325 --> 00:25:45,885 Speaker 2: It is the best little secret. I love it. I 436 00:25:45,925 --> 00:25:49,405 Speaker 2: love it so much. It's actually quite I'm actually kind 437 00:25:49,405 --> 00:25:53,005 Speaker 2: of enjoying discovering that now because it's giving me it's 438 00:25:53,045 --> 00:25:56,245 Speaker 2: almost like a re release in my own mind. You No, Like, 439 00:25:56,445 --> 00:25:59,405 Speaker 2: it's like I'm hearing it differently. I'm enjoying it differently. 440 00:25:59,845 --> 00:26:04,325 Speaker 2: It's feeling a little bit more subversive and rebellious. And 441 00:26:04,565 --> 00:26:06,565 Speaker 2: it's in my life again now in a new way 442 00:26:07,045 --> 00:26:08,965 Speaker 2: now that I know that, I think it will be 443 00:26:08,965 --> 00:26:10,725 Speaker 2: for a lot of people who might be learning that 444 00:26:11,085 --> 00:26:14,685 Speaker 2: for the first time. Another song of yours I want 445 00:26:14,685 --> 00:26:18,805 Speaker 2: to dig into is Brave, which you released in twenty thirteen. 446 00:26:19,845 --> 00:26:22,405 Speaker 2: Another song that's in high rotation in my life and 447 00:26:22,485 --> 00:26:25,765 Speaker 2: so many others. And what I really love about this 448 00:26:25,805 --> 00:26:29,605 Speaker 2: song is how it became such an anthem for the 449 00:26:29,965 --> 00:26:34,485 Speaker 2: LGBTQ community. And again, thinking about six year old Sarah 450 00:26:34,565 --> 00:26:38,045 Speaker 2: in her bedroom with her cassette tape, right, that must 451 00:26:38,085 --> 00:26:41,165 Speaker 2: have been an extraordinary feeling when something that was born 452 00:26:41,205 --> 00:26:46,125 Speaker 2: inside of you becomes a source of strength for other people, 453 00:26:46,485 --> 00:26:50,245 Speaker 2: and in this case, marginalized people. What was that? What's 454 00:26:50,285 --> 00:26:51,205 Speaker 2: that feeling like? 455 00:26:51,765 --> 00:26:56,725 Speaker 1: Oh? It is transcendent it's the best. It's the most 456 00:26:56,845 --> 00:27:00,445 Speaker 1: I could ever have asked for. I mean, just there 457 00:27:00,525 --> 00:27:04,245 Speaker 1: is no better feeling than watching something you sort of 458 00:27:04,285 --> 00:27:08,005 Speaker 1: helped like usher into the world. My sort of philosophy 459 00:27:08,005 --> 00:27:10,685 Speaker 1: on music is like that doesn't belong to anybody. It's 460 00:27:10,765 --> 00:27:14,125 Speaker 1: just like I caught the Tale of the Meuse that 461 00:27:14,245 --> 00:27:16,925 Speaker 1: day along with my friend Jack Antonoff, who wrote that 462 00:27:17,005 --> 00:27:19,885 Speaker 1: song with me. But that to just help usher something 463 00:27:19,925 --> 00:27:22,965 Speaker 1: into the world that feels like it already belonged to 464 00:27:23,085 --> 00:27:26,325 Speaker 1: other people, I think is just a tremendous source of pride. 465 00:27:27,085 --> 00:27:30,045 Speaker 1: And yeah, I think it's always been important to me 466 00:27:31,005 --> 00:27:36,165 Speaker 1: to do my best to be an ally to people 467 00:27:36,205 --> 00:27:41,445 Speaker 1: who feel disenfranchised or feel othered. And I think in 468 00:27:41,485 --> 00:27:43,965 Speaker 1: some ways it comes back to, as silly as it 469 00:27:44,005 --> 00:27:46,645 Speaker 1: may be, to being like a kid who got bullied, 470 00:27:47,005 --> 00:27:52,405 Speaker 1: and I know what it feels to be ostracized and 471 00:27:52,445 --> 00:27:56,325 Speaker 1: to be less than and I don't ever want to 472 00:27:56,365 --> 00:28:00,365 Speaker 1: make people feel that way. I really believe in the value, 473 00:28:01,285 --> 00:28:05,525 Speaker 1: on a soul level of really putting effort towards inclusivity. 474 00:28:06,645 --> 00:28:12,565 Speaker 1: That acceptance and love and truth and the courage to 475 00:28:12,605 --> 00:28:16,205 Speaker 1: show up as one's authentic self is actually the medicine 476 00:28:16,325 --> 00:28:19,005 Speaker 1: that the world needs. I really believe that with my 477 00:28:19,085 --> 00:28:23,205 Speaker 1: heart of hearts. So this song was a love letter 478 00:28:23,205 --> 00:28:25,325 Speaker 1: to a friend who was struggling with coming out, one 479 00:28:25,365 --> 00:28:29,365 Speaker 1: of the most my one of my north star most 480 00:28:29,405 --> 00:28:33,925 Speaker 1: beloved friends. And it was a very personal note to 481 00:28:34,005 --> 00:28:37,085 Speaker 1: this person and then put it in a song. And 482 00:28:37,365 --> 00:28:40,005 Speaker 1: I think because it carried the resonance of truth and 483 00:28:40,765 --> 00:28:43,525 Speaker 1: just like a lot of love for this person, it 484 00:28:43,645 --> 00:28:48,845 Speaker 1: kind of ballooned out into this bigger story. And yeah, 485 00:28:48,845 --> 00:28:51,005 Speaker 1: it's very proud. I'm very proud to be a part 486 00:28:51,045 --> 00:28:53,885 Speaker 1: of the story of that song. Oh. 487 00:28:54,285 --> 00:28:57,525 Speaker 2: I think it's incredible because, you know, source of the capitalist, 488 00:28:57,605 --> 00:29:00,325 Speaker 2: the universe, whatever you call it, does like to play 489 00:29:00,325 --> 00:29:03,725 Speaker 2: pranks on us sometimes, I think, keep us laughing at 490 00:29:03,765 --> 00:29:08,405 Speaker 2: ourselves sometimes. You know. A few months after Brave was released, 491 00:29:08,765 --> 00:29:11,805 Speaker 2: Katy Perry Roar came out and was instantly kind of 492 00:29:11,805 --> 00:29:14,725 Speaker 2: compared to Brave in a very simplistic kind of way. 493 00:29:14,725 --> 00:29:18,765 Speaker 2: There's a similar chord progression, similar message in some ways too, 494 00:29:18,885 --> 00:29:21,245 Speaker 2: you know, a bit of a fight song. You've always 495 00:29:21,285 --> 00:29:25,205 Speaker 2: been incredibly gracious about that. Is it just a kind 496 00:29:25,205 --> 00:29:27,285 Speaker 2: of quirk of the fact that there's there's a limited 497 00:29:27,365 --> 00:29:30,885 Speaker 2: number of notes available in the world. Sure, sometimes this 498 00:29:30,965 --> 00:29:32,765 Speaker 2: is just gonna happen. You know, how do you think 499 00:29:32,765 --> 00:29:35,005 Speaker 2: that something like that kind of comes to pass? 500 00:29:35,405 --> 00:29:38,165 Speaker 1: Well, it's not the most inventive chord progression in the world. 501 00:29:38,205 --> 00:29:41,685 Speaker 1: Like I like, it's what they've been doing that people 502 00:29:41,685 --> 00:29:44,845 Speaker 1: are making that song over and over again forever. I 503 00:29:44,965 --> 00:29:49,365 Speaker 1: again feel like my I have a lot of faith 504 00:29:49,565 --> 00:29:54,685 Speaker 1: in the way that life moves. And I actually think 505 00:29:55,045 --> 00:29:58,045 Speaker 1: when that song first came out, I have a very 506 00:29:58,045 --> 00:30:01,685 Speaker 1: embarrassing journal entry where I was like, get ready, Sarah, 507 00:30:01,965 --> 00:30:05,285 Speaker 1: your life's gonna change and this song is gonna change 508 00:30:05,325 --> 00:30:08,925 Speaker 1: the world. It's like I was just like, I don't 509 00:30:09,005 --> 00:30:10,965 Speaker 1: know if I'm going to be able to handle how 510 00:30:10,965 --> 00:30:12,645 Speaker 1: famous I'm going to become like it was. 511 00:30:12,805 --> 00:30:15,045 Speaker 2: I hope you framed that page of your diary. 512 00:30:15,325 --> 00:30:16,605 Speaker 1: I'm going to have to find it. But if I 513 00:30:16,645 --> 00:30:18,165 Speaker 1: find it, I'll send it to you. I promise I 514 00:30:18,205 --> 00:30:19,005 Speaker 1: would love to see that. 515 00:30:19,365 --> 00:30:20,005 Speaker 2: Yes. 516 00:30:20,525 --> 00:30:23,605 Speaker 1: And then, of course, you know that song came out 517 00:30:23,605 --> 00:30:26,365 Speaker 1: and nothing happened. Nothing happened with the song, and so 518 00:30:26,765 --> 00:30:30,285 Speaker 1: the sort of quote unquote controversy with Katy Perry was 519 00:30:30,325 --> 00:30:34,245 Speaker 1: a part of what kind of steered eyeballs towards this song, 520 00:30:34,925 --> 00:30:38,805 Speaker 1: in addition to another kind of simultaneous little mini story 521 00:30:38,845 --> 00:30:41,645 Speaker 1: that was happening out of a children's hospital in Minnesota 522 00:30:41,685 --> 00:30:47,365 Speaker 1: where these little beautiful young patients, some bald from their 523 00:30:47,405 --> 00:30:50,685 Speaker 1: cancer treatment with superhero capes like the nurses had made 524 00:30:50,685 --> 00:30:54,685 Speaker 1: this music video to the song Brave. So that video 525 00:30:54,765 --> 00:30:58,045 Speaker 1: went viral, and so with it the song, and then 526 00:30:58,085 --> 00:31:01,325 Speaker 1: there was this other kind of piece where it was 527 00:31:01,445 --> 00:31:03,925 Speaker 1: controversy and what really felt to me. I mean, I've 528 00:31:04,005 --> 00:31:06,725 Speaker 1: known Katie a long time, we were in La together, 529 00:31:06,765 --> 00:31:09,605 Speaker 1: I've shared hotel rooms with her. I did not consider 530 00:31:09,685 --> 00:31:13,365 Speaker 1: ourselves like adverts serial in any way. It felt like 531 00:31:13,405 --> 00:31:15,405 Speaker 1: we were being pitted against each other in a way 532 00:31:15,445 --> 00:31:17,525 Speaker 1: that like, I just don't really ascribe to I'm a 533 00:31:17,525 --> 00:31:20,525 Speaker 1: feminist to you know, as far as it'll take me. 534 00:31:20,725 --> 00:31:22,925 Speaker 2: Not your style, yeah, not my style. 535 00:31:23,205 --> 00:31:25,565 Speaker 1: No. So I think in some way it even helped 536 00:31:25,805 --> 00:31:29,085 Speaker 1: the visibility of the song. And there was nothing stolen 537 00:31:29,125 --> 00:31:32,565 Speaker 1: from me. There was nothing taken from me that I 538 00:31:32,605 --> 00:31:35,365 Speaker 1: needed to fight for in that moment. There could be 539 00:31:35,405 --> 00:31:39,365 Speaker 1: another scenario that happens where I might feel differently, but 540 00:31:39,525 --> 00:31:42,605 Speaker 1: in that moment, I really I'm very much at peace 541 00:31:42,685 --> 00:31:45,525 Speaker 1: with how that all kind of transpired well and. 542 00:31:45,845 --> 00:31:48,605 Speaker 2: Brave and all of your music. You know, still it's 543 00:31:48,645 --> 00:31:51,405 Speaker 2: got such a long tail. You know, there's still new 544 00:31:51,445 --> 00:31:54,725 Speaker 2: people discovering it all the time, and a part of 545 00:31:54,765 --> 00:31:58,165 Speaker 2: that is because of Waitress the musical, which I'm very 546 00:31:58,165 --> 00:32:00,365 Speaker 2: excited to talk to you about. What I love about 547 00:32:00,365 --> 00:32:04,565 Speaker 2: this too, is that I've heard you say that if 548 00:32:04,605 --> 00:32:07,645 Speaker 2: you could go back and do it again, you might 549 00:32:07,645 --> 00:32:10,605 Speaker 2: have studied musical theater, and instead I think you study 550 00:32:10,645 --> 00:32:12,165 Speaker 2: communications or something like that. 551 00:32:12,325 --> 00:32:14,205 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, that's right, that's right. 552 00:32:14,445 --> 00:32:18,085 Speaker 2: So I feel like there must have been a theater 553 00:32:18,245 --> 00:32:21,685 Speaker 2: kid just lurking inside of you that was like, when 554 00:32:21,805 --> 00:32:25,325 Speaker 2: is my time finally going to come? And it came 555 00:32:25,725 --> 00:32:28,965 Speaker 2: and you made it happen. I'm very curious about the 556 00:32:29,045 --> 00:32:31,525 Speaker 2: Chicken and Egg, you know, did you fall in love 557 00:32:31,525 --> 00:32:34,125 Speaker 2: with the film and was the concept for the musical 558 00:32:34,405 --> 00:32:37,205 Speaker 2: your idea or were you approached? How did this come 559 00:32:37,765 --> 00:32:41,685 Speaker 2: to be a part of your exciting creative expression. 560 00:32:42,165 --> 00:32:46,445 Speaker 1: I was approached. So after my second record, Kaleidoscope, Part, 561 00:32:47,325 --> 00:32:50,285 Speaker 1: I very quickly. I'm a Sagittarius and I get very 562 00:32:50,325 --> 00:32:52,605 Speaker 1: antsy when things start to look too much the same 563 00:32:52,645 --> 00:32:55,045 Speaker 1: all the time. And I started very quickly to be 564 00:32:55,085 --> 00:32:57,125 Speaker 1: able to see what the long road of being a 565 00:32:57,165 --> 00:33:01,125 Speaker 1: recording artist look like. It's very cyclical. It looks you 566 00:33:01,165 --> 00:33:03,405 Speaker 1: make you write songs, you make a record, you go 567 00:33:03,445 --> 00:33:05,885 Speaker 1: on tour, you take a break, you write songs, you 568 00:33:05,925 --> 00:33:07,765 Speaker 1: go make a record, you go on to it. It 569 00:33:07,845 --> 00:33:11,165 Speaker 1: just started to look really solure and I started to 570 00:33:11,165 --> 00:33:13,685 Speaker 1: get a little claustrophobic, and so I took a little 571 00:33:14,325 --> 00:33:16,485 Speaker 1: a break and I went to New York City, and 572 00:33:16,565 --> 00:33:20,125 Speaker 1: I thought that I would audition for something and see, 573 00:33:20,165 --> 00:33:22,165 Speaker 1: like what if I took a break and did a show. 574 00:33:23,005 --> 00:33:27,125 Speaker 1: And I did this terrible audition for a show called 575 00:33:27,125 --> 00:33:30,405 Speaker 1: Into the Woods, and I did not get the part. 576 00:33:30,685 --> 00:33:33,205 Speaker 1: And I was so embarrassed by my audition because I 577 00:33:33,325 --> 00:33:35,085 Speaker 1: really had no idea what the hell I was doing. 578 00:33:35,965 --> 00:33:38,325 Speaker 1: And in that same little I took a month and 579 00:33:38,365 --> 00:33:40,285 Speaker 1: went to New York and in that same month I 580 00:33:40,325 --> 00:33:43,565 Speaker 1: had a meeting with a woman named Diane Paulus, who 581 00:33:43,645 --> 00:33:47,325 Speaker 1: was attached as the director at this point for Waitress. 582 00:33:47,525 --> 00:33:52,445 Speaker 1: So this was in its nascent stages. There were producers attached, 583 00:33:52,485 --> 00:33:55,485 Speaker 1: there was a director attached, and they were looking for 584 00:33:55,805 --> 00:33:58,605 Speaker 1: a composer. And I had an interesting meeting with her. 585 00:33:58,645 --> 00:34:01,965 Speaker 1: I had not seen the film. At the time, I 586 00:34:02,005 --> 00:34:05,205 Speaker 1: had never in a million years considered writing a musical. 587 00:34:05,565 --> 00:34:08,485 Speaker 1: I really only thought I would go and audition and 588 00:34:08,525 --> 00:34:10,405 Speaker 1: try to be a part of something as an actor. 589 00:34:10,725 --> 00:34:12,605 Speaker 2: Really, so there was never a little part of you, 590 00:34:12,605 --> 00:34:14,685 Speaker 2: even with your sister in musical theater and all of 591 00:34:14,725 --> 00:34:16,805 Speaker 2: that that was like, oh, and growing up listening to 592 00:34:16,885 --> 00:34:19,885 Speaker 2: musical theater, there was never a party that thought I 593 00:34:19,925 --> 00:34:21,845 Speaker 2: want to create that now. 594 00:34:22,085 --> 00:34:26,165 Speaker 1: Wow, did not even occur to me. Never thought about it, 595 00:34:26,205 --> 00:34:26,845 Speaker 1: not even once. 596 00:34:26,965 --> 00:34:28,565 Speaker 2: I loved that. I loved that it was such a 597 00:34:28,645 --> 00:34:32,205 Speaker 2: new thing that just swooped in and entered your life totally. 598 00:34:32,765 --> 00:34:34,845 Speaker 1: And actually, I have to say I have to give 599 00:34:34,925 --> 00:34:37,645 Speaker 1: Jennifer Nettles of the band sugar Land a lot of 600 00:34:37,685 --> 00:34:40,165 Speaker 1: credit for this, because we toured together and she always 601 00:34:40,165 --> 00:34:44,285 Speaker 1: wanted to write a musical, and she's like, Sarah, let's 602 00:34:44,285 --> 00:34:46,245 Speaker 1: write a musical. So we would sit in her dressing 603 00:34:46,285 --> 00:34:48,525 Speaker 1: room and we'd like fart around on the keyboard and 604 00:34:48,565 --> 00:34:51,765 Speaker 1: we were writing musical theater songs. And I think in 605 00:34:51,765 --> 00:34:53,645 Speaker 1: a way it started to make it feel like, oh, 606 00:34:53,885 --> 00:34:55,645 Speaker 1: is that a thing that I could do? It feels 607 00:34:55,645 --> 00:34:59,965 Speaker 1: so playful and so like childlike. But then this opportunity 608 00:35:00,005 --> 00:35:04,525 Speaker 1: presented itself, and I watched the movie and I did 609 00:35:04,565 --> 00:35:07,085 Speaker 1: not fall in love with everything right out the gate. 610 00:35:07,165 --> 00:35:11,885 Speaker 1: I felt a lot of questions, but I curious. And 611 00:35:11,925 --> 00:35:16,365 Speaker 1: then the first song after watching the film, the first 612 00:35:16,405 --> 00:35:18,365 Speaker 1: song that I wrote, was she Used to be Mine. 613 00:35:19,005 --> 00:35:22,525 Speaker 1: And I was feeling a lot of synergy between the 614 00:35:22,725 --> 00:35:25,125 Speaker 1: sort of state of mind of the character and what 615 00:35:25,165 --> 00:35:27,005 Speaker 1: I was going through at that time. As I mentioned, 616 00:35:27,005 --> 00:35:29,685 Speaker 1: I was like, I can see down the road a 617 00:35:29,685 --> 00:35:32,805 Speaker 1: million years. I'm getting claustrophobic in my life. I made 618 00:35:32,805 --> 00:35:35,805 Speaker 1: the decision to move to New York. I made the 619 00:35:35,805 --> 00:35:39,405 Speaker 1: decision to leave my bandmates who were my very best friends, 620 00:35:39,445 --> 00:35:43,245 Speaker 1: my family. I left my manager, I left a long relationship. 621 00:35:43,645 --> 00:35:47,365 Speaker 1: I sort of did this wipe the slate clean. We'll 622 00:35:47,365 --> 00:35:50,285 Speaker 1: call it a mid life crisis. And I moved to 623 00:35:50,325 --> 00:35:53,605 Speaker 1: New York and I just felt unmoored and I didn't 624 00:35:53,645 --> 00:35:56,525 Speaker 1: know which way was up, and I just I think 625 00:35:56,525 --> 00:35:59,085 Speaker 1: that's part of why I said yes to this project. 626 00:35:59,885 --> 00:36:02,965 Speaker 1: And I do often speak about my life falls very 627 00:36:03,005 --> 00:36:06,485 Speaker 1: solidly into two categories. It is before waitress and after waitress, 628 00:36:06,685 --> 00:36:10,245 Speaker 1: and everything about my life is better because of this show. 629 00:36:10,445 --> 00:36:14,285 Speaker 1: I love this show. I am so excited it's coming 630 00:36:14,325 --> 00:36:17,485 Speaker 1: to Australia. It's been such a long time in the making. 631 00:36:17,845 --> 00:36:21,365 Speaker 2: We are very excited too. And does that possibly mean 632 00:36:21,645 --> 00:36:26,125 Speaker 2: that you might come to celebrate the debut of Waitress 633 00:36:26,245 --> 00:36:27,645 Speaker 2: Musical in Australia with us. 634 00:36:27,885 --> 00:36:30,125 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I hope. So this will all be 635 00:36:30,285 --> 00:36:33,565 Speaker 1: dependent upon schedule. So things are still kind of shifting 636 00:36:33,605 --> 00:36:35,925 Speaker 1: a little bit for me as I'm working on a 637 00:36:35,965 --> 00:36:39,285 Speaker 1: new record and I'm trying to also tend to my 638 00:36:40,445 --> 00:36:43,325 Speaker 1: you know, other duties. But of course, oh my god, 639 00:36:43,325 --> 00:36:45,045 Speaker 1: if I can be there, you know, I'm going to 640 00:36:45,085 --> 00:36:46,925 Speaker 1: be there with bells on my hand is up. 641 00:36:47,125 --> 00:36:49,045 Speaker 2: You know, you can put your people in touch with 642 00:36:49,085 --> 00:36:52,765 Speaker 2: my people. I don't know, I have no people to 643 00:36:52,805 --> 00:36:56,405 Speaker 2: be your you know. Your American Guide to Australianisms. I 644 00:36:56,445 --> 00:36:58,285 Speaker 2: love it because there are a lot of very funny 645 00:36:58,285 --> 00:37:01,805 Speaker 2: but sometimes very confusing ones. We would love to have 646 00:37:01,885 --> 00:37:03,485 Speaker 2: you and to host you, and I do hope that 647 00:37:03,565 --> 00:37:06,165 Speaker 2: you're able to make it. While we're on the topic 648 00:37:06,205 --> 00:37:10,525 Speaker 2: of celebration, celebrating Waitress coming to Australia in this extraordinary 649 00:37:10,605 --> 00:37:13,485 Speaker 2: kind of new chapter in your life, you, my dear, 650 00:37:13,605 --> 00:37:16,325 Speaker 2: are a newlywed. Like a week a week ago. 651 00:37:16,685 --> 00:37:18,205 Speaker 1: Yeah, just about you and. 652 00:37:18,165 --> 00:37:21,285 Speaker 2: Your husband, Joe Tippett, the incredible actor. Joe Tippitt only 653 00:37:21,285 --> 00:37:23,725 Speaker 2: got married a week ago. I don't know what you're 654 00:37:23,765 --> 00:37:25,245 Speaker 2: doing talking to me. I don't know why you're not, 655 00:37:25,325 --> 00:37:27,605 Speaker 2: you know, sipping Margarita's on a beach somewhere. I hope 656 00:37:27,605 --> 00:37:30,165 Speaker 2: that that's in. Maybe that's where you're going as soon 657 00:37:30,205 --> 00:37:32,005 Speaker 2: as soon as we finish. 658 00:37:32,565 --> 00:37:33,605 Speaker 1: Kidding it a plane. 659 00:37:33,685 --> 00:37:36,605 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would. I hope that for you. I wish 660 00:37:36,685 --> 00:37:39,245 Speaker 2: that for you. I was looking at your wedding photos 661 00:37:39,245 --> 00:37:44,445 Speaker 2: on Instagram and I just felt such immense happiness for you, Sarah, 662 00:37:44,605 --> 00:37:47,125 Speaker 2: you know, because I've been studying you and your work, 663 00:37:47,165 --> 00:37:50,605 Speaker 2: and I felt like I understood the journey that you've 664 00:37:50,645 --> 00:37:53,685 Speaker 2: really been on to understand yourself better through a lot 665 00:37:53,725 --> 00:37:57,085 Speaker 2: of the mental health struggles that you've mentioned, navigating a 666 00:37:57,085 --> 00:38:00,125 Speaker 2: really tricky industry. And I feel like I looked at 667 00:38:00,125 --> 00:38:03,165 Speaker 2: those pictures and I'm like, that was on an easy 668 00:38:03,245 --> 00:38:06,725 Speaker 2: road to that day, and look at this incredible moment 669 00:38:06,765 --> 00:38:11,325 Speaker 2: of celebration and excitement about future and what's next. And 670 00:38:11,405 --> 00:38:13,925 Speaker 2: I just really want to ask you, you know again, 671 00:38:14,005 --> 00:38:18,245 Speaker 2: starting with that six year old in your bedroom right now, 672 00:38:18,285 --> 00:38:21,085 Speaker 2: in your life in this moment, forty five year old 673 00:38:21,085 --> 00:38:25,245 Speaker 2: woman newlywed, really at the top of your game creatively, 674 00:38:25,685 --> 00:38:29,445 Speaker 2: How are you? Where are you with yourself right now? 675 00:38:31,565 --> 00:38:34,285 Speaker 1: I love that question, you know, when you were talking 676 00:38:34,285 --> 00:38:38,205 Speaker 1: about the looking at the photographs of that day. One 677 00:38:38,285 --> 00:38:41,285 Speaker 1: of the things that I came away from that day feeling. 678 00:38:42,005 --> 00:38:45,445 Speaker 1: And I say this for anybody listening who finds themselves 679 00:38:45,485 --> 00:38:51,885 Speaker 1: to be have a fear of commitment or vulnerability. I 680 00:38:51,925 --> 00:38:56,085 Speaker 1: think I've always felt very guarded and self protective, especially 681 00:38:56,125 --> 00:39:04,485 Speaker 1: in relationship. And I can't believe, in knowing me, that 682 00:39:04,605 --> 00:39:07,485 Speaker 1: I got to get to a place where I stood 683 00:39:07,485 --> 00:39:12,525 Speaker 1: across from someone and I was not carrying any pit 684 00:39:12,645 --> 00:39:19,885 Speaker 1: of anxiety, any worry, any low grade hum of anxious 685 00:39:20,365 --> 00:39:24,805 Speaker 1: need to extract, which has always been present for me. 686 00:39:25,365 --> 00:39:27,525 Speaker 1: Is just like I got to keep one eye on 687 00:39:27,565 --> 00:39:30,325 Speaker 1: the door, one foot out just a little bit, just 688 00:39:30,485 --> 00:39:34,725 Speaker 1: to be safe, to make sure I take care of myself. 689 00:39:35,245 --> 00:39:38,805 Speaker 1: And So the journey with Joe, who I also met 690 00:39:38,845 --> 00:39:41,765 Speaker 1: on Waitress by the way, he was that's I met 691 00:39:41,805 --> 00:39:44,645 Speaker 1: this I met my husband because of this beautiful show. 692 00:39:45,725 --> 00:39:49,965 Speaker 1: The journey was really about loving myself and learning to 693 00:39:50,045 --> 00:39:53,765 Speaker 1: trust someone. And I can't believe that it was possible. 694 00:39:54,125 --> 00:39:58,445 Speaker 1: So I just say that to encourage anybody who's on 695 00:39:58,525 --> 00:40:02,605 Speaker 1: that journey still or just like can I could I ever? 696 00:40:02,965 --> 00:40:05,125 Speaker 1: I mean, I think for at a certain point, I 697 00:40:06,165 --> 00:40:08,085 Speaker 1: I just never thought I would get married. I never 698 00:40:08,165 --> 00:40:12,485 Speaker 1: thought I would even really learn to open myself up 699 00:40:12,525 --> 00:40:15,005 Speaker 1: that much to someone. And so it's a really it's 700 00:40:15,045 --> 00:40:17,765 Speaker 1: a really beautiful feeling when you get there and you 701 00:40:18,125 --> 00:40:20,045 Speaker 1: it is hard one. Like you said, there's I would 702 00:40:20,165 --> 00:40:23,245 Speaker 1: never use the word easy to describe our relationship. We 703 00:40:23,405 --> 00:40:26,165 Speaker 1: have fought every step of the way to get here, 704 00:40:26,765 --> 00:40:29,645 Speaker 1: and now it feels there's an ease to it, but 705 00:40:30,405 --> 00:40:34,085 Speaker 1: no very hard one. And I'm really really proud of that. Yeah, 706 00:40:34,245 --> 00:40:36,485 Speaker 1: so I'm good to answer your question. I'm good. I 707 00:40:36,525 --> 00:40:39,725 Speaker 1: feel really in a way, I feel really proud of myself. 708 00:40:40,165 --> 00:40:46,285 Speaker 1: And there's so much vulnerability in letting yourself be joyful. 709 00:40:46,445 --> 00:40:48,765 Speaker 1: I think, you know, it's impossible to look at the 710 00:40:48,765 --> 00:40:51,245 Speaker 1: context of the world right now and how much fear 711 00:40:51,365 --> 00:40:57,805 Speaker 1: and anguish and paranoia and othering is happening. And so 712 00:40:58,725 --> 00:41:01,565 Speaker 1: to allow it to be true that there is also 713 00:41:01,645 --> 00:41:06,005 Speaker 1: still joy and also still connection and also still hope, 714 00:41:06,245 --> 00:41:09,285 Speaker 1: I think is an act of resistance and is important 715 00:41:09,965 --> 00:41:10,445 Speaker 1: here here. 716 00:41:10,805 --> 00:41:14,285 Speaker 2: I couldn't agree with that more. And what I love 717 00:41:14,325 --> 00:41:17,765 Speaker 2: about that is, you know, if I a stranger admiring 718 00:41:17,765 --> 00:41:20,205 Speaker 2: you from a distance, can learn a bit about you, 719 00:41:20,405 --> 00:41:24,085 Speaker 2: look at that photo of you and feel genuine joy 720 00:41:24,125 --> 00:41:27,125 Speaker 2: for you. It only makes me think that that six 721 00:41:27,205 --> 00:41:30,205 Speaker 2: year old we've discussed, that thirteen year old we've discussed 722 00:41:30,285 --> 00:41:32,725 Speaker 2: that seventeen year old you wrote a letter to, would 723 00:41:32,725 --> 00:41:35,165 Speaker 2: be really proud of you right now too, Sarah. 724 00:41:35,245 --> 00:41:36,845 Speaker 1: That's such a sweet thing to say. 725 00:41:37,165 --> 00:41:42,605 Speaker 2: Thank you for this conversation. Thank you so much, friends, 726 00:41:42,845 --> 00:41:46,365 Speaker 2: that was Sarah Barelli's a woman who's built a career 727 00:41:46,485 --> 00:41:49,045 Speaker 2: on being brave enough to tell the truth even when 728 00:41:49,045 --> 00:41:53,405 Speaker 2: it hurts. Her hit musical Waitress is coming to Australia. 729 00:41:53,445 --> 00:41:55,725 Speaker 2: And if you've ever needed a reminder that it's never 730 00:41:55,765 --> 00:41:59,445 Speaker 2: too late to start again, her story and her music 731 00:41:59,565 --> 00:42:03,045 Speaker 2: will give you exactly that. The senior producer of No 732 00:42:03,125 --> 00:42:08,285 Speaker 2: Filter is Preplayer. Audio production by Tina Mattalov, video editing 733 00:42:08,365 --> 00:42:11,285 Speaker 2: by Josh Green and I'm Naima Brown. Thank you for 734 00:42:11,365 --> 00:42:12,325 Speaker 2: listening to No Filter.