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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: MoMA Mia.

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Speaker 3: Out loud.

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Speaker 2: What women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the second

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Speaker 2: of October. I'm Holly wayIn Wright and Mea and I

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Speaker 2: have already been talking all morning today. We have because

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Speaker 2: we watched the vice presidential debate together. For those of

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Speaker 2: you who are obsessed with US politics as we are,

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Speaker 2: It's going to drop tomorrow. It's with Amelia Lester, of course, telling.

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Speaker 1: Us what's what?

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Speaker 2: Do JD bancewin? Tim waltzwind? Will it make any difference?

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Speaker 2: It drops tomorrow for our subscribers.

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Speaker 1: I'm Mea Friedman and I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And on the show today, the biggest pop star in

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Speaker 2: the world right now needs a mental health day and

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Speaker 2: her fans are really not happy about it.

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Speaker 1: Kids get off screens.

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Speaker 2: And out into the world. But no, not like that.

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Speaker 2: The who ha around a TV anchor, her son and

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Speaker 2: a very long train ride. So do you want to

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Speaker 2: know what all the fuss is about? The movie Substance?

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Speaker 2: But you don't want to watch body parts exploding? We

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Speaker 2: have got your covet.

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Speaker 4: But first Israel's invasion of Lebanon. Iran's ballistic missiles shot

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Speaker 4: at Israel, more innocent lives lost in what is being

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Speaker 4: called the most dangerous moment in the history of the

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Speaker 4: modern Middle East. Israel has launched a ground invasion in

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Speaker 4: southern Lebanon, and the Israeli military has described this invasion

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Speaker 4: as limited, localized and targeted raids against Hesbela. Hesbla, however,

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Speaker 4: claimed that there are no troops in Lebanon, while Israeli

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Speaker 4: air strikes continue in Lebanon, officials say that more than

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Speaker 4: a thousand people have been killed in the past two weeks.

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Speaker 4: Iran has now launched a missile strike on Israel. Hesbelah,

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Speaker 4: recognized as a terrorist group, has been trained and armed

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Speaker 4: by Iran for four decades, and now Iran's direct involvement

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Speaker 4: is seen as a major escalation of a war now

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Speaker 4: being fought on multiple fronts. On Tuesday, Israeli Prime Minister

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Speaker 4: Benjamin Ettnyahu told his security cabinet Iran made a big

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Speaker 4: mistake this evening and it will pay for it. Whoever

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Speaker 4: attacks us, we will attack them. Look, what we know

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Speaker 4: is that this war has escalated, and every moment this

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Speaker 4: conflict goes on, we see more loss of innocent civilian life.

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Speaker 4: For more on this fast moving crisis, listen to The Quickie,

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Speaker 4: our daily news podcast. There's a link in our show notes.

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Speaker 1: Twenty six year old pop star Chapel Rone is having

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Speaker 1: the best and worst few months of her life, and

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Speaker 1: things seem to be picking up speed in both directions.

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Speaker 1: We spoke about her pushback video that went viral about

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Speaker 1: how her fans were too much and she was telling

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Speaker 1: them to back off when she's in public, and now

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Speaker 1: she has canceled three festival appearances. She shared a statement

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Speaker 1: on social media saying, I apologize to people who've been

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Speaker 1: waiting to see me in New York and DC this weekend.

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Speaker 1: At all things go, but I am unable to perform.

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Speaker 1: Things have gotten overwhelming over the past few weeks and

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Speaker 1: I'm really feeling it. I feel pressure to prioritize a

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Speaker 1: lot of things right now, and I need a few

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Speaker 1: days to prioritize my health. I want to be present

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Speaker 1: when I perform and give the best show possible. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for understanding, be back soon. In the last two years,

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Speaker 1: chapel Ron that's her stage name, her actual name is

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Speaker 1: Kaylie Rose Amstaltz. She's done one hundred and eighty seven concerts,

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Speaker 1: with one hundred and four this year alone. I went

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Speaker 1: back and looked, because you know how Taylor Swift is

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Speaker 1: doing a big eras tour, Chapel Rone is doing a

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Speaker 1: different thing where she performs at lots of different festivals.

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Speaker 1: She performs like her three songs. Sometimes she headlines, sometimes

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Speaker 1: she's just one of many acts, and so it's kind

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Speaker 1: of a way of reaching lots and lots of people,

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Speaker 1: and you know, often the video, the social from it

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Speaker 1: will go on YouTube and it'll go viral on social.

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Speaker 1: She's really blown up in these past few months. Her

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Speaker 1: album Midwestern Princess's top charts and singles like Hot to Go,

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Speaker 1: Good Luck Babe, and Pink Pony Club have come anthems

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Speaker 1: and won all these awards. She performed at the Grammys

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Speaker 1: a few weeks ago and won Best New Artist. And

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Speaker 1: also they've been in the last few weeks a bunch

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Speaker 1: of big cover stories that have dropped in interviews, like

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Speaker 1: a cub story of Rolling Stone where she's sort of

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Speaker 1: spoken in depth about how she's finding fame and even

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Speaker 1: though she's been a performer for a really long time.

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Speaker 1: This level of vile fame and how sudden it is

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Speaker 1: has been a bit of a shock to her system.

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Speaker 1: So what's changed over the last few weeks is that

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Speaker 1: she's also found herself because of these interviews in a

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Speaker 1: controversy when it comes to the US election, because in

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Speaker 1: one of the interviews, she made some remarks about refusing

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Speaker 1: to publicly endorse a candidate in the US election. Taylor

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Speaker 1: Swift recently came out and endorsed Kamala Harris, but she said,

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Speaker 1: I have so many issues with our government in every way,

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Speaker 1: and those remarks really blew up overnight, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of people were furious with her and accused her of

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Speaker 1: supporting Donald Trump because she said she wouldn't endorse Kamala

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Speaker 1: And so then she had to clarify, which she did

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Speaker 1: in a series of videos in her stories on Instagram

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Speaker 1: that she would be voting for Kamala, but that an

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Speaker 1: endorsement like Taylor made was different and she wasn't comfortable

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Speaker 1: with that level of alignment because there were democratic policies

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Speaker 1: that she didn't agree with. Here's a little bit of

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Speaker 1: one of those videos where she was sort of becoming

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Speaker 1: increasingly angry and upset with commenters who were criticizing her.

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Speaker 2: I just woke up and to like people just skewing

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Speaker 2: it even more. Doorsing and voting are completely different. I

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Speaker 2: don't agree with a lot of what is going on

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Speaker 2: with policies, like obviously fucked the policies of the right,

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Speaker 2: but also fuck some of the policies on the left.

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Speaker 1: That's why I can't endorse, That's why I can't like

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Speaker 1: put my entire name, in my entire project behind one.

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Speaker 1: So in these videos, she sort of would finish making

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Speaker 1: her point and then she'd come back to try and

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Speaker 1: clarify it again. And we've seen this before in the past,

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Speaker 1: maybe some of us have even tried it in video form,

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Speaker 1: where you start brawling with your commenters and you start,

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Speaker 1: you know, trying to explain yourself and explain yourself, and

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Speaker 1: then they come back and back and it's hiding to nowhere, really.

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Speaker 1: And it was a day or so after these videos

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Speaker 1: were posted that she canceled these concerts. But Jesse, the

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Speaker 1: response to the cancelation itself has been really interesting because

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Speaker 1: she's clearly someone who is struggling with fame. She wears

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Speaker 1: her heart on her sleeve. She is bipolar according to her,

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Speaker 1: and has struggles with mental health, so you would think

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Speaker 1: that people would be understanding when she canceled these concerts,

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Speaker 1: but that's not what.

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Speaker 4: Happened, especially a generation who is more literate and compassionate

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Speaker 4: about mental health than I would think any other generation,

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Speaker 4: until they lose their tickets, until the festival that they

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Speaker 4: wanted to go to on the weekend doesn't have chapel ron.

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Speaker 1: So people were then shouting at her, not just about

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Speaker 1: who she supported or didn't support her endorsement, but they

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Speaker 1: were shouting at her about canceling the concept.

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Speaker 4: So there are viral tiktoks that have millions and millions

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Speaker 4: of views that have been popping up on my feed

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Speaker 4: all week that say things like, ma'am, you canceled your

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Speaker 4: set at a festival because you are stressed. You have

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Speaker 4: been famous for maybe four months. Justin Bieber endured that

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Speaker 4: stress you're encountering for his whole life. I mean footnote

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Speaker 4: that Justin Bieber doesn't appear to really perform anymore, also

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Speaker 4: great himself. The other sentiments were sort of like, wish

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Speaker 4: I had the privilege to cancel on my job commitments

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Speaker 4: when I'm not feeling one hundred percent. Unfortunately, i'd be homeless.

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Speaker 4: No one else in the world can cancel work because

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Speaker 4: they're stressed.

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Speaker 1: That's not true.

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Speaker 3: That's absolutely not true.

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Speaker 4: And another comment that was getting a lot of traction

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Speaker 4: was therapy has just given everyone permission to prioritize their

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Speaker 4: mental health, to just be selfish and mean to everyone else.

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Speaker 4: So we think that we've made a lot of progress

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Speaker 4: when it comes to understanding the whole that fame takes

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Speaker 4: on people, and also that you might need a mental

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Speaker 4: health day, Like in everyday life, there are situations where

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Speaker 4: we would like to think that if someone put the

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Speaker 4: hand up and said, I actually can't come to work more,

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Speaker 4: I need a mental health day, then we'd be way

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Speaker 4: more understanding than we were a generation ago. But this

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Speaker 4: is symptomatic of how we see Roan as a product

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Speaker 4: and not a person, like I paid for you, and

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Speaker 4: now you're not going to be there, and how about

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Speaker 4: my hotel and how about my outfit? And in fact,

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Speaker 4: I think that frustration is probably valid, like I would

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Speaker 4: be really upset, but to direct it, I keep thinking

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Speaker 4: how she must be feeling right now, what it must

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Speaker 4: take for an artist with her team and with her fame,

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Speaker 4: to not turn up to a show is enormous And

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Speaker 4: in fact, this one, the festival that she's pulled out of,

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Speaker 4: was just a day before and a lot of people

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Speaker 4: are going, you should have given us more notice. To me,

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Speaker 4: that says she really wanted to do it, and she

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Speaker 4: realized that she couldn't, and that I feel an enormous

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Speaker 4: amount of compassion for that.

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Speaker 2: She's such an interesting study in overnight fame because it

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Speaker 2: is like literal overnight fame, as you say, She's been

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Speaker 2: doing it a long time, but her fame has accelerated

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Speaker 2: like a rocket, and probably a lot of these bookings

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Speaker 2: were in the diary before she was who she is

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Speaker 2: right now. Right because Chapel Rone could fill a stadium

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Speaker 2: on her own now, she doesn't really need to be

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Speaker 2: doing festival shows. But I'm sure that a lot of

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Speaker 2: these commitments were a long time ago, and she is

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Speaker 2: in literally a cyclone of attention and she's trying to

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Speaker 2: figure out how to deal with it. One of the

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Speaker 2: things that I think is really interesting is rock stars,

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Speaker 2: pop stars, musicians, whatever you want to call them, have

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Speaker 2: always flaked out of shows, right and usually they would

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Speaker 2: just tell you, oh, they've got a cold, they're dealing

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Speaker 2: with the chest infection at the moment, or whatever. When

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Speaker 2: it could have been mental health, it could have been addiction,

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Speaker 2: it could have been whatever. The thing with the Chapel

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Speaker 2: Roane is she is trying to be still the person

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Speaker 2: that she probably has always been, who is somebody very honest,

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Speaker 2: very authentic, very wearing my heart on my sleeve. So

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Speaker 2: the way, even the way she talks about politics in

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Speaker 2: that whole fuck the left, fuck the right, I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to explain to you, this nuanced critical thinking piece is

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Speaker 2: something that any really professional, high level artist with a

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Speaker 2: team around them would be told. Do not do that,

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Speaker 2: you know, either say nothing or say something definitive, but

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Speaker 2: don't start trying to actually talk like a real person

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Speaker 2: and start a real conversation with your nuance because that's

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Speaker 2: not gonna go anywhere good. And so it's almost like

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Speaker 2: you've given too much of yourself, You've handed over this

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Speaker 2: pound of flesh. So she's telling the truth about why

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Speaker 2: she's not turning up to these festivals, which is I

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Speaker 2: am so overwhelmed. I can't handle it. I don't think

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Speaker 2: I can do it. I feel so vulnerable out there

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Speaker 2: I've got to be happy, I've got to perform. I'm

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Speaker 2: an arms reach away from everybody, and she can't do it.

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Speaker 2: In the old world, her team would have just said,

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Speaker 2: Chapel's got flu.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: She posted a story as well, not a post, which

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Speaker 4: means that people can't really respond, and she's close common

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Speaker 4: and she's close comments, which I think tells us something.

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Speaker 4: And I was also thinking to the people who were like,

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Speaker 4: turn up, you had a job to do, the rest

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Speaker 4: of us are doing our jobs. I mean, that is

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Speaker 4: just such an unempathetic way to live your life. But

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Speaker 4: I keep thinking about Avicy. So his real name was

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Speaker 4: Tim Bergling, and if you have seen the documentary of

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Speaker 4: Eachy True Stories, you'll see that he had a meteorite

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Speaker 4: rise to fame and he started doing maybe fifty shows

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Speaker 4: a year, and I think in the final year he

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Speaker 4: did about two hundred and fifty shows. And he has

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Speaker 4: infections and like his body is falling apart. And it's

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Speaker 4: not just the performing, it's the whole, like it's what.

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Speaker 2: Goes with it, it's what travel. And also festivals, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's an enormous amount of output there. You're backstage with

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of other people credibly and like it's

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Speaker 2: not Taylor Swift and a very well organized machine world.

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Speaker 4: Burgling in the end died by suicide and was such

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Speaker 4: an incredible artist. But we get these lessons. You watch

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Speaker 4: that and you see how me you started by saying,

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Speaker 4: it's the best time of Rome's life and the worst.

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Speaker 4: I don't think there is any best for Rone right now.

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Speaker 4: Maybe in the future she'll see it, but I think

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Speaker 4: she's living in hell. I think she is hating it.

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Speaker 1: I think it's it's objectively the best time in her

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Speaker 1: life because as a performer or an artist, this is

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Speaker 1: what you dream of. You dream of Elton John calling

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Speaker 1: you up, and every pop star shouting you.

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Speaker 2: Out and your songs mean to them.

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Speaker 1: And winning awards and going on stage to all these

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Speaker 1: people and everyone warning you and the cover of Rolling Stone,

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Speaker 1: like all of these things are these objective milestones in

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Speaker 1: what it means to be a successful artist in the

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Speaker 1: music industry. And I think that's probably what makes it harder,

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Speaker 1: because it's funny. Claire's got this podcast called but Are

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Speaker 1: You Happy? When often the objective measures of success don't

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Speaker 1: bring you the happiness, and they actually bring with them

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of shit that you never thought about.

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Speaker 1: And what's so clear to us sitting back, not saying

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Speaker 1: that we're famous, but we over a long period of time,

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Speaker 1: as our public profiles have grown, we have learned what

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Speaker 1: you can and can't do and what is a highway

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Speaker 1: to poor mental health. And it's really unfortunate because sometimes

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Speaker 1: you want to try and have a conversation and your

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Speaker 1: humanity is being questioned, or your decisions have been questioned,

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Speaker 1: or people are saying lies about you, and you want

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Speaker 1: to push back or explain yourself better, and you think

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Speaker 1: it's going to end well, and you have to do

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Speaker 1: it a lot of times before you realize it's actually

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Speaker 1: not going to end well. It's not going to end

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Speaker 1: well for you, and you're not going to change the

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Speaker 1: mind like she wasn't changing the mind of anyone who

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Speaker 1: was slagging her off.

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Speaker 3: So you think that those videos have contributed to the point.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent and to play Devil's advocate, and this

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Speaker 1: sounds like I'm victim blaming and I'm not at all.

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Speaker 1: But the people who are like, here's our contract. I

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Speaker 1: pay for my ticket and I expect you to show

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Speaker 1: up and I expect you to do what's required so

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Speaker 1: that you can and show up, whether it's not staying

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Speaker 1: up all night and partying and that's clearly not what

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Speaker 1: she's doing, or not doing things that are going to

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Speaker 1: make you mentally unwell so that you have to then

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Speaker 1: take time off. So I guess I can understand because

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Speaker 1: we all look at it and go, oh, Chapa, what

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Speaker 1: are you doing? Like just stop, just stop, just step away,

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Speaker 1: just step away. And this idea of her team should

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Speaker 1: protect her when you become that famous that fast. Not

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Speaker 1: everybody has a tree pain. That's Taylor Swift's famous publicist

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Speaker 1: and the right people around them. I mean, interestingly, Travis

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Speaker 1: Kelcey even this week just sacked his whole publicity team.

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Speaker 1: So sometimes the people you have around you aren't equipped.

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Speaker 2: Well and they're probably scrambling like this has been so fast,

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Speaker 2: and she's no one's fault. The people that she has

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Speaker 2: around her are probably people she really trusts and knows. Right.

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Speaker 2: But the thing is is that the sad thing that

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Speaker 2: has to happen is that really for her to protect

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Speaker 2: her mental health, and not that we necessarily know this,

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Speaker 2: but is a wall needs to go up between her

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Speaker 2: and her fans, and she probably hates that idea everybody does,

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Speaker 2: you know, Like she wants to be able to jump

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Speaker 2: on live and say this is what I think about this,

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Speaker 2: and you guys know the real me and all those things.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that's very important to her because she's an artist,

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Speaker 2: and she's a brilliant artist, and she's clearly sensitive, and

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Speaker 2: she's clearly got you know, she's been very open about

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Speaker 2: her mental health, and unfortunately, one of the things she's

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Speaker 2: going to need to do to protect herself if she

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Speaker 2: wants to keep on doing this is put walls up right,

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Speaker 2: like between her and her audience, her and her fans,

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Speaker 2: her and what events she will do, won't do, where

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Speaker 2: she can travel to, what the schedule's got to be, like,

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Speaker 2: what time she needs. Like anytime you talk to anyone

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Speaker 2: that level famous, whether you listen to interviews with them

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Speaker 2: or you hear them talking on but are You Happy

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Speaker 2: or shows like that, they'll say I had to learn

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Speaker 2: what I needed to do to protect my mental health

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Speaker 2: to be able to keep doing the thing I love.

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Speaker 2: And it's that unpopular word boundaries. Yes, and Roan, And

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying this in any way to blame her

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Speaker 2: but I think that what we're literally seeing in real

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Speaker 2: time with how she's grappling with fame and this believable

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Speaker 2: attention being the person she is, she's working that out

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Speaker 2: in real time, and it's really hard.

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Speaker 4: I agree with everything that you say, but I would

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Speaker 4: add that maybe what we're seeing with trying to convince

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Speaker 4: her fans and going back and whatever, which is a

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Speaker 4: strategy that we know doesn't necessarily work. But I can

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Speaker 4: see and feel her desperation and I have felt it

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Speaker 4: to just be understood. I think that's why people are artists,

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Speaker 4: to try and be understood. I wonder if this is

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Speaker 4: all symptomatic rather than a cause. If she is, and

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Speaker 4: she's said before that she suffers from severe depression and

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Speaker 4: bipolar two these preceded her face all of these stresses,

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Speaker 4: would you be really difficult?

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Speaker 3: But I worry.

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Speaker 4: About us saying, and not just about Rome, but about

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Speaker 4: people in our own lives when we go, you know,

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Speaker 4: they're really struggling. And I've seen it, and I've been

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Speaker 4: at the receiving end of it too, Like you know,

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Speaker 4: she's really depressed, but she's not exercising every day, and

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Speaker 4: she just ate a little bit better, and you know,

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Speaker 4: I don't think that she's seeing her psychologist enough, which yes,

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Speaker 4: But the nature of mental health is that, like the

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Speaker 4: spiral is part of it, If that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: I don't want mental health.

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Speaker 4: We talk about it as an illness, but there's also

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Speaker 4: an element of it being your responsibility, which we don't

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Speaker 4: do with other illness.

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Speaker 2: Had a broken leg? Yeah, So the thing is is

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Speaker 2: the people who are disappointed that she's not going to

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Speaker 2: be at the festival that they are going to, although

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Speaker 2: they're going to see lots of other people, they'll get

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Speaker 2: over it. And if she had broken a leg and

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Speaker 2: it was like Chapel Rone isn't performing today because she'd

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Speaker 2: broken her leg, they would also be disappointed, but they'd

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Speaker 2: get over it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But what if she'd have broken a leg because she

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Speaker 1: was skydiving or skateboarding or skiing.

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Speaker 3: Is that what we're saying that she's doing no life?

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Speaker 1: I no, I'm just driving.

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Speaker 4: For example, I was at a rider's festival a little

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Speaker 4: while ago in quite a remote location. Took a really

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Speaker 4: long time to get there, and I went to do

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Speaker 4: this panel and before we started the panel, someone came

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Speaker 4: over and said, there was meant to be four of

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Speaker 4: you and now there's three of you. One of the

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Speaker 4: people on the panel can't do it. And I was like, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: no worries. And in fact, to be completely honest, i'd

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Speaker 4: had food poisoning that night and I had a little

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Speaker 4: I just went, oh, they can't, like I've been throwing

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Speaker 4: up da da da, And they said this person had

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Speaker 4: a panic attack and hasn't had that before. And I

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Speaker 4: thought about it, and I went, imagine traveling all the

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Speaker 4: way to this remote location to speak on a panel.

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Speaker 4: Imagine the distress, how much pain you must be in.

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Speaker 4: And anyone who's experienced of your depression or panic attacks

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Speaker 4: knows that.

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Speaker 3: There is nothing more debilitating.

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Speaker 4: It's your head. And when your head's not working, you

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Speaker 4: feel like you can't do anything right. I think that

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Speaker 4: there's a lack of compassion in this story.

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Speaker 2: You know how we keep being told that kids need

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Speaker 2: to get off their phones and touch some grass. Well,

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Speaker 2: good luck with that, because depending on how far away

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Speaker 2: from your watchful eye that grass is, you might just

382
00:19:04,087 --> 00:19:06,807
Speaker 2: find yourself in a pile of pooh. That is the

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Speaker 2: experience of British TV presenter Allsop, who's at the center

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Speaker 2: of a big ding dong in the UK because she

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Speaker 2: thought that her fifteen year old son could do with

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Speaker 2: a bit more independence. Now you probably don't know who

387
00:19:19,487 --> 00:19:21,447
Speaker 2: Kirsty is, and for the purposes of this story, you

388
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Speaker 2: don't need to. She presents a lot of UK TV shows,

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Speaker 2: notably the ones about houses like Location, Location, Location, and Love.

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Speaker 1: It or List It.

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Speaker 2: She lives in a fancy bit of London and she

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Speaker 2: sent her son Oscar Hercules off traveling with a friend

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Speaker 2: on a train. Over the course of a few weeks

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Speaker 2: in the northern summer, he traveled to Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, Berlin, Munich, Marseille, Toulouse,

395
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Speaker 2: Barcelona and Madrid with a sixteen year old friend. We

396
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Speaker 2: call this in Europe interrailing. You get a ticket, you

397
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Speaker 2: can jump on and off trains and you go around Europe.

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Speaker 3: Did you do that?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 2: Okay, I did not do that.

401
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Speaker 3: Is that because it was expensive?

402
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Speaker 2: Isn't it because it was expensive?

403
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Speaker 1: Is it a common thing that fifteen year old to do?

404
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Speaker 2: It's a common thing. It's like in English education you

405
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Speaker 2: have these two gaps. So when you're at the end

406
00:20:06,727 --> 00:20:09,167
Speaker 2: of what would be here year ten, so that could

407
00:20:09,167 --> 00:20:12,127
Speaker 2: be fifteen turning sixteen, is you do your GCSEs and

408
00:20:12,167 --> 00:20:14,047
Speaker 2: that's where he was right, So she said he was

409
00:20:14,087 --> 00:20:15,647
Speaker 2: just a bit young for his year. The friend he

410
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Speaker 2: went with was sixteen and then if you carry on

411
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Speaker 2: with school, then you do your A levels at eighteen,

412
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Speaker 2: so year twelve ish and then you may or may

413
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Speaker 2: not continue to UNI. Anyway, she spoke about this trip

414
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Speaker 2: on social media and shortly afterwards she got contacted by

415
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Speaker 2: the local social services saying that the matter had been

416
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Speaker 2: reported to them and they'd opened a child protection file. Alsop,

417
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Speaker 2: who's a pretty famous person in the UK, insisted that

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Speaker 2: she had decided to allow Oscar to go because society

419
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Speaker 2: has become increasingly risk averse and children need to develop

420
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Speaker 2: the confidence that only comes from trusting them, and we

421
00:20:49,247 --> 00:20:51,847
Speaker 2: do hear that a lot. She also said, of course,

422
00:20:51,927 --> 00:20:54,967
Speaker 2: because everybody says this, that she'd read all those Jonathan

423
00:20:55,047 --> 00:20:58,527
Speaker 2: Height reports from that book about the anxious generation, that

424
00:20:58,567 --> 00:21:01,647
Speaker 2: we protect too much offline and not enough online, and

425
00:21:01,687 --> 00:21:04,567
Speaker 2: decided to walk her walk. Confidence, she says, comes from

426
00:21:04,607 --> 00:21:07,487
Speaker 2: trust and independence from doing things by yourself. My son

427
00:21:07,567 --> 00:21:10,327
Speaker 2: is capable. It was his idea, his plan, his savings.

428
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Speaker 2: He came to me and said can I do this?

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Speaker 2: And I saw no reason for saying no. And when

430
00:21:15,007 --> 00:21:16,767
Speaker 2: I mentioned that he'd done it, I wanted it to

431
00:21:16,807 --> 00:21:20,287
Speaker 2: be inspiring. As you can imagine. Her critics have jumped

432
00:21:20,327 --> 00:21:23,847
Speaker 2: on it, went crazy. They were like, you're irresponsible, how terrible.

433
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Speaker 2: And she has written a lot about how she really

434
00:21:26,607 --> 00:21:29,207
Speaker 2: believed that it was a very important rite of passage

435
00:21:29,207 --> 00:21:31,167
Speaker 2: for him, and she makes the point she says, the

436
00:21:31,207 --> 00:21:34,327
Speaker 2: child services thing is just absurd and made me very angry.

437
00:21:34,527 --> 00:21:36,647
Speaker 2: If anything, it's a distillation of where we've got to.

438
00:21:36,767 --> 00:21:38,807
Speaker 2: But it isn't the main issue. The main issue is

439
00:21:38,847 --> 00:21:40,647
Speaker 2: that so many people seem to think the world is

440
00:21:40,647 --> 00:21:43,847
Speaker 2: a more dangerous place to travel in. Yet modern communications,

441
00:21:43,887 --> 00:21:46,727
Speaker 2: safer transport, and better emergency health means it's actually a

442
00:21:46,807 --> 00:21:50,087
Speaker 2: safer place to travel in than it's ever been. What

443
00:21:50,407 --> 00:21:52,367
Speaker 2: do we think, friends.

444
00:21:52,767 --> 00:21:55,287
Speaker 3: May or would you let fifteen year old travel to

445
00:21:55,327 --> 00:21:58,687
Speaker 3: another country? Well, actually interstate is probably a better Yeah.

446
00:21:58,727 --> 00:22:02,687
Speaker 2: She wants to make the point that in England and Europe,

447
00:22:02,847 --> 00:22:05,687
Speaker 2: she said, the actual distance covered it probably wouldn't have

448
00:22:05,727 --> 00:22:07,087
Speaker 2: got you out of New South Wales. Do you know

449
00:22:07,127 --> 00:22:09,967
Speaker 2: what I mean in terms of actual distance? She said,

450
00:22:09,967 --> 00:22:12,167
Speaker 2: if we're in Australia, probably I mean you probably wouldn't

451
00:22:12,167 --> 00:22:13,207
Speaker 2: be out of New South Wells. But you know what

452
00:22:13,207 --> 00:22:13,447
Speaker 2: I mean.

453
00:22:13,807 --> 00:22:16,487
Speaker 1: But it's going to different that's a lot of countries.

454
00:22:16,727 --> 00:22:19,967
Speaker 1: My no trip, massive envy, and he's fifteen year old.

455
00:22:20,007 --> 00:22:23,927
Speaker 1: I want his life. It's tricky, isn't it. I'm really

456
00:22:24,007 --> 00:22:26,607
Speaker 1: in agreement. I've read a lot and thought a lot

457
00:22:26,647 --> 00:22:30,967
Speaker 1: about the fact that if you don't let children take risks,

458
00:22:31,407 --> 00:22:34,567
Speaker 1: then they get to eighteen and it's suddenly like, Okay,

459
00:22:34,687 --> 00:22:37,047
Speaker 1: you can have alcohol, you can drive a car, all

460
00:22:37,047 --> 00:22:39,047
Speaker 1: bets are off, You're free. You can do whatever you

461
00:22:39,047 --> 00:22:42,927
Speaker 1: want now. And they've had no practice in navigating risk

462
00:22:43,127 --> 00:22:46,807
Speaker 1: and assessing risk because we've never given them a chance

463
00:22:46,847 --> 00:22:49,647
Speaker 1: to build that muscle through their life. And that's the

464
00:22:49,767 --> 00:22:52,687
Speaker 1: argument behind free range parenting, isn't it that? You know,

465
00:22:52,727 --> 00:22:54,967
Speaker 1: we mean well, but we think that it's our job

466
00:22:55,087 --> 00:22:59,607
Speaker 1: to protect our children from all the risks and walk

467
00:22:59,607 --> 00:23:01,607
Speaker 1: them around the fire and not hold their hand while

468
00:23:01,647 --> 00:23:04,727
Speaker 1: they walk through it. And so yeah, I mean, I've

469
00:23:04,727 --> 00:23:07,207
Speaker 1: got a sixteen year old. You know, we were overseas

470
00:23:07,487 --> 00:23:10,007
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago when my daughter was sixteen,

471
00:23:10,047 --> 00:23:12,927
Speaker 1: maybe seventeen. She really wanted to come home. She was

472
00:23:13,127 --> 00:23:16,047
Speaker 1: not feeling great and not enjoying this trip. So we

473
00:23:16,127 --> 00:23:20,687
Speaker 1: allowed her to fly home from Greece alone and then

474
00:23:20,927 --> 00:23:23,527
Speaker 1: just be at home for a week or so until

475
00:23:23,567 --> 00:23:26,447
Speaker 1: we got back. I mean, look, we could track her phone,

476
00:23:26,487 --> 00:23:28,327
Speaker 1: we could do all of those things, and when she

477
00:23:28,407 --> 00:23:30,807
Speaker 1: was eighteen, every night I was checking where she was

478
00:23:30,847 --> 00:23:33,607
Speaker 1: when she was just recently traveling for six weeks. It's

479
00:23:33,647 --> 00:23:37,247
Speaker 1: scary as a parent, but what a gift you give

480
00:23:37,847 --> 00:23:38,367
Speaker 1: your child?

481
00:23:38,567 --> 00:23:41,527
Speaker 4: Yeah, And what the criticism can never take into account,

482
00:23:41,727 --> 00:23:44,327
Speaker 4: which I think has just should be the mantra of

483
00:23:44,367 --> 00:23:47,287
Speaker 4: the internet, is that the mum or the dad or

484
00:23:47,287 --> 00:23:50,767
Speaker 4: the caregiver knows the kid better than you do. So

485
00:23:51,327 --> 00:23:54,447
Speaker 4: your fifteen year old might just in terms of maturity,

486
00:23:54,487 --> 00:23:56,847
Speaker 4: not be there. We don't know her fifteen year old.

487
00:23:56,887 --> 00:23:58,447
Speaker 4: I think she knows her kid, she knows what her

488
00:23:58,487 --> 00:24:01,567
Speaker 4: kid is capable of. But what this story speaks to

489
00:24:02,007 --> 00:24:06,247
Speaker 4: is the rub between the messaging we're getting in all

490
00:24:06,287 --> 00:24:09,887
Speaker 4: the books and I'm getting it very very low, which

491
00:24:09,927 --> 00:24:14,967
Speaker 4: is about independence, parents that are overfunctioning, and how there

492
00:24:15,007 --> 00:24:18,247
Speaker 4: is this link between less freedom and trust and more

493
00:24:18,287 --> 00:24:20,527
Speaker 4: mental health concerns. So we go, Okay, we've got to

494
00:24:20,567 --> 00:24:23,167
Speaker 4: give them freedom and independence and play and don't get

495
00:24:23,207 --> 00:24:25,727
Speaker 4: too involved in all of those things. But then the

496
00:24:25,807 --> 00:24:28,167
Speaker 4: second you enact any of that, child service is a

497
00:24:28,247 --> 00:24:28,927
Speaker 4: called or whatever.

498
00:24:29,087 --> 00:24:31,087
Speaker 2: And even if not child service is a called, the

499
00:24:31,207 --> 00:24:34,407
Speaker 2: judgment upon you from other people is enormous.

500
00:24:34,487 --> 00:24:35,087
Speaker 1: Is enormous.

501
00:24:35,247 --> 00:24:37,727
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's one of the tricky things, exactly.

502
00:24:37,887 --> 00:24:40,247
Speaker 4: And the other thing I thought about this story was

503
00:24:40,407 --> 00:24:44,287
Speaker 4: this is why you should never say a parenting decision.

504
00:24:43,887 --> 00:24:45,927
Speaker 3: You make out loud of meaned so true.

505
00:24:46,007 --> 00:24:48,607
Speaker 4: It's like anything that I choose, whether it's like feeding

506
00:24:48,687 --> 00:24:50,247
Speaker 4: or what. And I know that sometimes it can be

507
00:24:50,247 --> 00:24:53,327
Speaker 4: really helpful, but I'm like, I personally can't handle nor

508
00:24:53,367 --> 00:24:55,887
Speaker 4: do I give a shit what anyone else thinks about it,

509
00:24:55,967 --> 00:24:56,647
Speaker 4: don't you think.

510
00:24:56,567 --> 00:24:59,927
Speaker 1: You often don't realize until you do say it, and

511
00:24:59,967 --> 00:25:02,327
Speaker 1: then there's pushback and you go, oh, I didn't. I

512
00:25:02,367 --> 00:25:06,247
Speaker 1: didn't realize this was a problem. Sometimes the Internet is

513
00:25:06,287 --> 00:25:08,807
Speaker 1: what tells you. I remember getting my son a smash

514
00:25:08,847 --> 00:25:11,487
Speaker 1: cake for his birthday when he was I don't know eight.

515
00:25:12,407 --> 00:25:14,607
Speaker 1: I posted a funny video about it, and it ended

516
00:25:14,687 --> 00:25:17,007
Speaker 1: up in the Daily Mail about people were upset about

517
00:25:17,007 --> 00:25:20,287
Speaker 1: the violence, and I was teaching my child violence because

518
00:25:20,287 --> 00:25:22,767
Speaker 1: all the kids like smashed it and then all ran

519
00:25:22,847 --> 00:25:24,247
Speaker 1: over the top of each other trying to get it,

520
00:25:24,287 --> 00:25:24,527
Speaker 1: and they.

521
00:25:24,527 --> 00:25:28,047
Speaker 4: Wonder why the well being of parents is really really low.

522
00:25:28,087 --> 00:25:30,207
Speaker 1: And other people were being critical that I bought the

523
00:25:30,207 --> 00:25:32,527
Speaker 1: cake in it we were also hundred dollars. Why didn't

524
00:25:32,567 --> 00:25:33,487
Speaker 1: I just make the cake.

525
00:25:33,847 --> 00:25:36,407
Speaker 2: It's interesting to me that the title of Heights book

526
00:25:36,447 --> 00:25:39,767
Speaker 2: about the kids is the anxious generation, But actually the

527
00:25:39,847 --> 00:25:42,647
Speaker 2: gen X parents who are making these decisions, we're fucking

528
00:25:42,727 --> 00:25:46,527
Speaker 2: anxious because like we live to our south of Sydney.

529
00:25:46,607 --> 00:25:48,767
Speaker 2: My daughters started making that train trip on her own

530
00:25:48,767 --> 00:25:50,887
Speaker 2: a bit in school holidays, come see her friend or whatever.

531
00:25:51,447 --> 00:25:53,847
Speaker 2: And when I put her on that train, of course

532
00:25:53,887 --> 00:25:56,287
Speaker 2: I say to her, like if a creepy guy sits

533
00:25:56,367 --> 00:25:59,247
Speaker 2: next to you, or if something happens or the train

534
00:25:59,327 --> 00:26:01,887
Speaker 2: breaks down, or da da da da da. But every

535
00:26:01,887 --> 00:26:05,047
Speaker 2: time she does it, she might face a situation where

536
00:26:05,047 --> 00:26:08,207
Speaker 2: she's going to like most likely and what's generally happened.

537
00:26:08,247 --> 00:26:09,767
Speaker 2: She gets on the train, she gets the other end,

538
00:26:09,807 --> 00:26:11,647
Speaker 2: she has a great time. But every time she does

539
00:26:11,727 --> 00:26:13,607
Speaker 2: get on the train, there is a chance that something

540
00:26:13,647 --> 00:26:16,007
Speaker 2: might happen. And I was thinking that. Actually, when I

541
00:26:16,047 --> 00:26:18,527
Speaker 2: was about the age of Oscar Hercules, I didn't go

542
00:26:18,567 --> 00:26:20,927
Speaker 2: off interrailing. But me and a friend did catch a

543
00:26:20,967 --> 00:26:24,167
Speaker 2: train from France to Italy where my parents were on holiday,

544
00:26:24,367 --> 00:26:26,207
Speaker 2: and it was an overnight train.

545
00:26:26,487 --> 00:26:27,167
Speaker 1: There was a.

546
00:26:27,087 --> 00:26:30,687
Speaker 2: Carriage down the train of football hooligans. This was an

547
00:26:30,727 --> 00:26:33,527
Speaker 2: era of football hooligans, the late eighties, and they were

548
00:26:33,567 --> 00:26:35,767
Speaker 2: scary guys and they were drunk and they gave us

549
00:26:35,807 --> 00:26:39,087
Speaker 2: loads of shit and we were scared. Right. Whatever we survived,

550
00:26:39,087 --> 00:26:41,207
Speaker 2: it wasn't particularly pleasant and we had a story to

551
00:26:41,247 --> 00:26:44,087
Speaker 2: tell everybody. But that could have gone bad, you know,

552
00:26:44,127 --> 00:26:46,047
Speaker 2: it definitely could have gone bad, and it could go

553
00:26:46,167 --> 00:26:48,087
Speaker 2: bad every time I put my daughter on a train,

554
00:26:48,607 --> 00:26:51,727
Speaker 2: and the fear of judgment is one of the things

555
00:26:51,767 --> 00:26:54,167
Speaker 2: that paralyzes parents. Is one of my mate says this

556
00:26:54,207 --> 00:26:56,087
Speaker 2: to me all the time. She's like, if something happens,

557
00:26:56,167 --> 00:26:59,247
Speaker 2: imagine what everyone will say, not because they're a public figure,

558
00:26:59,247 --> 00:27:01,807
Speaker 2: but just like people in your world is they'll say, well,

559
00:27:01,807 --> 00:27:03,727
Speaker 2: what did you think putting a fourteen year old girl

560
00:27:03,727 --> 00:27:06,287
Speaker 2: on a train when there might be drunk guys getting

561
00:27:06,327 --> 00:27:09,207
Speaker 2: on at that station and there might be boys doing this,

562
00:27:09,327 --> 00:27:11,847
Speaker 2: and her phone might run out of battery and the

563
00:27:11,967 --> 00:27:13,647
Speaker 2: train might break down and she won't know where to go,

564
00:27:13,647 --> 00:27:15,247
Speaker 2: and then she'd be wandering the streets and then someone

565
00:27:15,287 --> 00:27:17,807
Speaker 2: could come and like they're piling the anxiety and the

566
00:27:17,887 --> 00:27:21,527
Speaker 2: judgment onto you. So you have to actually be a

567
00:27:21,807 --> 00:27:26,527
Speaker 2: very confident, centered parent in this day and age to go.

568
00:27:26,927 --> 00:27:29,767
Speaker 2: And I'm not necessarily defending Kirsty Alsop because I think

569
00:27:29,767 --> 00:27:32,047
Speaker 2: she's probably a bit out there, but it's like, you

570
00:27:32,047 --> 00:27:32,967
Speaker 2: have to be a very.

571
00:27:32,927 --> 00:27:34,207
Speaker 1: What do you mean do you think she shouldn't have

572
00:27:34,247 --> 00:27:34,487
Speaker 1: done it?

573
00:27:34,407 --> 00:27:35,967
Speaker 2: It was too well, I don't think she shouldn't have

574
00:27:36,047 --> 00:27:38,287
Speaker 2: done it, but the way she defends it, of like, oh,

575
00:27:38,327 --> 00:27:39,967
Speaker 2: it's a rite of passage and all those things, I

576
00:27:40,047 --> 00:27:43,207
Speaker 2: just think that's not really true, you know. But I

577
00:27:43,247 --> 00:27:46,967
Speaker 2: think you have to be such a confident, grounded I

578
00:27:47,007 --> 00:27:50,367
Speaker 2: can handle it parent to go. No, I believe in

579
00:27:50,407 --> 00:27:52,407
Speaker 2: my choices and I believe in my kid, and that's

580
00:27:52,687 --> 00:27:55,367
Speaker 2: very hard to do, whether they're little and you're talking

581
00:27:55,407 --> 00:27:58,047
Speaker 2: about feeding, or whether they're fourteen and you're putting them

582
00:27:58,087 --> 00:27:58,567
Speaker 2: on a train.

583
00:27:58,807 --> 00:28:02,247
Speaker 4: Also did speak to something that's very true, though, which

584
00:28:02,327 --> 00:28:04,447
Speaker 4: is that the world is actually safer than it's ever been.

585
00:28:04,487 --> 00:28:07,647
Speaker 4: But because of our exposure, and I've found this with babies.

586
00:28:08,447 --> 00:28:12,447
Speaker 4: Everything that's gone wrong with a baby, I now read

587
00:28:12,767 --> 00:28:16,047
Speaker 4: because it's served me an algorithm, So you will see

588
00:28:16,087 --> 00:28:18,527
Speaker 4: every story about that fourteen year old girl, whether it

589
00:28:18,687 --> 00:28:20,447
Speaker 4: is near your house or whether it's on the other

590
00:28:20,487 --> 00:28:23,967
Speaker 4: side of the world, and so our sense of scale

591
00:28:24,087 --> 00:28:28,967
Speaker 4: or our sense of likelihood or probability is totally thrown out.

592
00:28:29,567 --> 00:28:32,407
Speaker 4: There was a great article though in The Atlantic about

593
00:28:32,567 --> 00:28:35,967
Speaker 4: lighthouse parents. I really liked that terminology, which was the

594
00:28:36,047 --> 00:28:39,327
Speaker 4: idea that similar to a lighthouse, you provide a bit

595
00:28:39,327 --> 00:28:41,567
Speaker 4: of light, a bit of stability, so that the ships

596
00:28:41,607 --> 00:28:44,487
Speaker 4: can see their way. This parent kept saying, and I

597
00:28:44,487 --> 00:28:47,647
Speaker 4: think she worked in education or something, and she said,

598
00:28:48,247 --> 00:28:51,167
Speaker 4: when her child comes home and says I'm being bullied

599
00:28:51,247 --> 00:28:53,167
Speaker 4: or whatever, rather than go here's what you should do

600
00:28:53,207 --> 00:28:54,887
Speaker 4: and I'm going to call the teacher, she'll say like,

601
00:28:55,047 --> 00:28:56,767
Speaker 4: how did you deal with that? And work through it

602
00:28:56,807 --> 00:28:59,087
Speaker 4: a little bit, which is idealistic, but I think it's

603
00:28:59,087 --> 00:29:02,807
Speaker 4: probably a good place to start. And she's all about

604
00:29:03,047 --> 00:29:05,967
Speaker 4: missteps before mastery. So there's got to be the.

605
00:29:06,327 --> 00:29:07,767
Speaker 3: Let them mobble, let them mobile.

606
00:29:08,207 --> 00:29:10,367
Speaker 1: Yeah, it can be hard though, be like when is

607
00:29:10,367 --> 00:29:12,647
Speaker 1: it irresponsible to let them wobble? And well, when is

608
00:29:12,687 --> 00:29:13,767
Speaker 1: it potentially dangerous?

609
00:29:13,807 --> 00:29:15,327
Speaker 3: And one of the stakes of the stakes.

610
00:29:15,367 --> 00:29:17,807
Speaker 1: Yeah, wobbling. What's interesting though, it's funny we're talking all

611
00:29:17,847 --> 00:29:19,967
Speaker 1: about this in parents and being judged, and none of

612
00:29:20,047 --> 00:29:22,807
Speaker 1: this is about the kid, because every kid time has

613
00:29:22,887 --> 00:29:25,247
Speaker 1: always taken risks like the shit I did when I

614
00:29:25,367 --> 00:29:27,647
Speaker 1: was fifteen, but my parents weren't judged for it because

615
00:29:27,647 --> 00:29:28,087
Speaker 1: they didn't know.

616
00:29:28,367 --> 00:29:30,447
Speaker 2: Exactly, So that's not new.

617
00:29:30,767 --> 00:29:34,447
Speaker 1: What's new is actually about the parents learning to let

618
00:29:34,567 --> 00:29:39,327
Speaker 1: go more than the kids taking the risk. And also

619
00:29:40,167 --> 00:29:43,247
Speaker 1: our definition of what a good parent is because it's

620
00:29:43,367 --> 00:29:46,607
Speaker 1: contextual too, isn't it Because if that mother had gone

621
00:29:47,487 --> 00:29:50,527
Speaker 1: off to Abetha and was taking drugs and partying and

622
00:29:50,647 --> 00:29:53,567
Speaker 1: left the fifteen year old kid at home, would child

623
00:29:53,647 --> 00:29:57,887
Speaker 1: services have been involved? It's interesting to know about how

624
00:29:57,967 --> 00:30:01,327
Speaker 1: much of this is a How very dare you? You know?

625
00:30:01,487 --> 00:30:03,567
Speaker 1: The privilege and all of those.

626
00:30:03,487 --> 00:30:05,927
Speaker 2: Things out loud us tell us what are the risks

627
00:30:05,967 --> 00:30:07,767
Speaker 2: you took as a teenager and do you regret them?

628
00:30:07,847 --> 00:30:09,607
Speaker 2: And what kind of risks would you like your kid

629
00:30:09,687 --> 00:30:14,207
Speaker 2: take at what age? Do you want daily outloud access?

630
00:30:14,327 --> 00:30:17,767
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you? We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday

631
00:30:18,047 --> 00:30:21,407
Speaker 1: exclusively for Muma Mea subscribers. Follow the link in the

632
00:30:21,407 --> 00:30:23,607
Speaker 1: show notes to get us in your ears five days

633
00:30:23,607 --> 00:30:26,247
Speaker 1: a week, and a huge thank you if you're already

634
00:30:26,287 --> 00:30:26,927
Speaker 1: a subscriber.

635
00:30:36,007 --> 00:30:42,207
Speaker 5: Have you ever dreamt of a better version of yourself? Younger,

636
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Speaker 5: more beautiful, more perfect? One single injection unlocks your DNA

637
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638
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Speaker 4: For women, Aging is like a horror film. They are

639
00:30:58,167 --> 00:31:01,687
Speaker 4: the words of a reviewer named Paula Frolick, who, just

640
00:31:01,847 --> 00:31:04,327
Speaker 4: like the three of us, recently saw the award winning

641
00:31:04,407 --> 00:31:07,247
Speaker 4: film The Substance. We went out for a little date

642
00:31:07,327 --> 00:31:08,727
Speaker 4: night on Monday, which was lovely.

643
00:31:09,407 --> 00:31:11,647
Speaker 1: Just developed a Monday night movie date night.

644
00:31:13,247 --> 00:31:16,207
Speaker 4: And we're not going to give away spoilers here or

645
00:31:16,367 --> 00:31:18,607
Speaker 4: analyze a film in great details, so if you haven't

646
00:31:18,887 --> 00:31:21,327
Speaker 4: seen it, that doesn't matter. We just want to unpack

647
00:31:21,447 --> 00:31:24,127
Speaker 4: its premise and what it tells us about aging.

648
00:31:24,447 --> 00:31:25,567
Speaker 1: I think it was a masterpiece.

649
00:31:25,767 --> 00:31:26,567
Speaker 3: I bloody loved it.

650
00:31:26,727 --> 00:31:28,727
Speaker 4: It was quick summary of what the movie is about

651
00:31:28,807 --> 00:31:32,487
Speaker 4: for everybody, though Jesse, No, not for everybody. It stars

652
00:31:32,807 --> 00:31:36,047
Speaker 4: I say, Demi, Demi, what's this about Demi?

653
00:31:36,527 --> 00:31:37,767
Speaker 1: That's just how she says it.

654
00:31:38,047 --> 00:31:39,767
Speaker 3: Okay, I say okay.

655
00:31:39,887 --> 00:31:44,447
Speaker 4: Starring Demi Moore and Margaret Quayley, a fading celebrity on

656
00:31:44,527 --> 00:31:47,167
Speaker 4: her fiftieth birthday, decides to use a black market drug

657
00:31:47,247 --> 00:31:51,407
Speaker 4: that promises to temporarily create a younger, better version of herself.

658
00:31:52,047 --> 00:31:54,327
Speaker 4: It's about the deal one makes with the devil when

659
00:31:54,367 --> 00:31:57,207
Speaker 4: they attempt to turn the clock backwards, chasing youth and

660
00:31:57,327 --> 00:32:01,807
Speaker 4: beauty at all costs. Quayley, who plays Sue, is the

661
00:32:01,887 --> 00:32:06,007
Speaker 4: younger version of Elizabeth Sparkle played by Moore. Written and

662
00:32:06,047 --> 00:32:09,487
Speaker 4: directed by Coralie Fargit, The Substance is a satiric called

663
00:32:09,487 --> 00:32:13,687
Speaker 4: body horror film which explores themes of agism, beauty, obsession

664
00:32:13,727 --> 00:32:18,367
Speaker 4: with self image, capitalism, plastic surgery, and misogyny. Satirical body

665
00:32:18,407 --> 00:32:21,247
Speaker 4: horror is not a genre it's familiar with, but then

666
00:32:21,287 --> 00:32:22,967
Speaker 4: you watch it and you're like, yes, it is a

667
00:32:23,007 --> 00:32:25,527
Speaker 4: satirical horror body what's.

668
00:32:25,367 --> 00:32:27,527
Speaker 1: The satirical part? Because there's parts of it are funny.

669
00:32:28,007 --> 00:32:30,647
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not realistic, like it's not meant to be right.

670
00:32:32,567 --> 00:32:34,807
Speaker 1: Are their body horror and horror film? Like I've never

671
00:32:34,927 --> 00:32:35,847
Speaker 1: been to a horror.

672
00:32:35,807 --> 00:32:37,847
Speaker 2: Body horror film. When they talk about body horror, they

673
00:32:37,887 --> 00:32:40,407
Speaker 2: mean like there will be blood and guts, it will

674
00:32:40,527 --> 00:32:41,007
Speaker 2: be gory.

675
00:32:41,127 --> 00:32:41,247
Speaker 5: You know.

676
00:32:41,247 --> 00:32:43,047
Speaker 2: There are lots of different horror films. There are serial

677
00:32:43,167 --> 00:32:45,407
Speaker 2: killer movies, and there are spooky things with ghosts and whatever.

678
00:32:45,847 --> 00:32:48,007
Speaker 2: Body horror is like, it's about the gore.

679
00:32:48,167 --> 00:32:49,607
Speaker 1: So, Jesse, this is your jam.

680
00:32:50,007 --> 00:32:51,007
Speaker 3: I've watched every minute of it.

681
00:32:51,127 --> 00:32:53,287
Speaker 1: And I know this because there were lots of times

682
00:32:53,407 --> 00:32:56,167
Speaker 1: where I had was trying to bury my face in

683
00:32:56,247 --> 00:32:59,087
Speaker 1: your shoulder, and Holly also was looking at you, and

684
00:32:59,207 --> 00:33:01,927
Speaker 1: you were just looking straight at the screen, not flinching,

685
00:33:02,447 --> 00:33:03,447
Speaker 1: smiling or laughing.

686
00:33:03,527 --> 00:33:05,367
Speaker 3: Don't mind a little bit because it was quite funny.

687
00:33:05,447 --> 00:33:06,887
Speaker 3: It was just a greater purpose.

688
00:33:06,927 --> 00:33:07,767
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny.

689
00:33:07,847 --> 00:33:09,047
Speaker 3: It's funny movie, Holly.

690
00:33:09,247 --> 00:33:11,487
Speaker 4: If your host a podcast called mid and it's about

691
00:33:11,527 --> 00:33:14,607
Speaker 4: midlife women and something we often hear is that they

692
00:33:14,687 --> 00:33:17,447
Speaker 4: feel invisible. And this is about, in many ways the

693
00:33:17,567 --> 00:33:20,647
Speaker 4: opposite of invisible. How the harder you try to chase youth,

694
00:33:21,087 --> 00:33:25,687
Speaker 4: the more monstrous you become. My question is can women win?

695
00:33:26,847 --> 00:33:30,447
Speaker 2: Well, the answer to that is no. End of segment. No,

696
00:33:30,687 --> 00:33:32,527
Speaker 2: of course, the answer to that is no. But that

697
00:33:32,727 --> 00:33:34,527
Speaker 2: is exactly what this movie is about.

698
00:33:34,767 --> 00:33:34,967
Speaker 1: Jesse.

699
00:33:35,127 --> 00:33:39,087
Speaker 2: You are so right. And it's interesting that as gen

700
00:33:39,327 --> 00:33:42,447
Speaker 2: x women are moving into this age fifties and in

701
00:33:42,567 --> 00:33:43,927
Speaker 2: Demi Moore's case, sixties and.

702
00:33:44,367 --> 00:33:46,247
Speaker 3: Is she a gen X or would she be a boom.

703
00:33:48,527 --> 00:33:48,927
Speaker 5: Gen X.

704
00:33:49,047 --> 00:33:51,407
Speaker 2: She's elder gen X. She's a gen x icon though

705
00:33:51,447 --> 00:33:54,487
Speaker 2: because of her you know, brat pack years. This is

706
00:33:54,687 --> 00:33:57,087
Speaker 2: a topic that's being explored more and more, right, and

707
00:33:57,247 --> 00:33:59,727
Speaker 2: this movie is an example of that that I think

708
00:33:59,887 --> 00:34:02,887
Speaker 2: is brilliant because it's not meant to be realistic.

709
00:34:03,007 --> 00:34:03,127
Speaker 3: Right.

710
00:34:03,167 --> 00:34:05,767
Speaker 2: The characters have no backstory, we know nothing about them.

711
00:34:05,807 --> 00:34:08,927
Speaker 2: We're just dropped into this world and it's highly stylized,

712
00:34:08,927 --> 00:34:11,727
Speaker 2: and the that it's shot is very ardy and it's

713
00:34:11,807 --> 00:34:14,167
Speaker 2: sort of broad strokes the way they set it up.

714
00:34:14,287 --> 00:34:19,727
Speaker 2: And what is incredibly true is the depiction of the

715
00:34:19,807 --> 00:34:23,327
Speaker 2: fact that this woman is suddenly being pushed out right,

716
00:34:23,487 --> 00:34:27,127
Speaker 2: So she is a TV person, she was an actress.

717
00:34:27,167 --> 00:34:29,367
Speaker 2: Then she's obviously had a second act as like a

718
00:34:29,847 --> 00:34:33,327
Speaker 2: Jane Fonder esque aerobics instructor on TV and on the

719
00:34:33,407 --> 00:34:35,567
Speaker 2: morning show every morning she leads then ext sise thing.

720
00:34:35,927 --> 00:34:39,047
Speaker 2: And she's too old in the eyes of the TV execs.

721
00:34:39,087 --> 00:34:41,407
Speaker 2: And that's despite the fact that she clearly has done

722
00:34:41,567 --> 00:34:43,767
Speaker 2: everything she was supposed to do to stay young. So

723
00:34:44,327 --> 00:34:47,447
Speaker 2: she has had work, she is thin, she has got

724
00:34:47,527 --> 00:34:50,807
Speaker 2: the long hair, augmented boom. She's got all that stuff,

725
00:34:50,847 --> 00:34:54,407
Speaker 2: but still she is objectively too old now to be

726
00:34:55,127 --> 00:34:58,887
Speaker 2: attractive and convincing to this audience who the male TV

727
00:34:59,167 --> 00:35:02,207
Speaker 2: execs think she should be. And I think that what

728
00:35:02,567 --> 00:35:05,087
Speaker 2: is brilliant about this movie because it is very over

729
00:35:05,167 --> 00:35:09,047
Speaker 2: the top and ridiculous, but it absolutely drills home the

730
00:35:09,327 --> 00:35:14,127
Speaker 2: horror and the very physical violence of the interventions we

731
00:35:14,207 --> 00:35:18,087
Speaker 2: are prepared to make with ourselves to try and hold

732
00:35:18,127 --> 00:35:20,967
Speaker 2: onto this bargain, this idea that we can be that.

733
00:35:21,567 --> 00:35:23,687
Speaker 2: And I think it's interesting because one of the reasons

734
00:35:23,727 --> 00:35:25,967
Speaker 2: why I'm very scared of surgeries of all kinds in fact,

735
00:35:26,007 --> 00:35:29,367
Speaker 2: but obviously cosmetic surgery, is because I've watched too many

736
00:35:29,847 --> 00:35:33,127
Speaker 2: of those shows that show you it happening, and when

737
00:35:33,167 --> 00:35:35,607
Speaker 2: they give you a face lift and they literally lift

738
00:35:35,727 --> 00:35:38,047
Speaker 2: your face up. When you see that, that is a

739
00:35:38,487 --> 00:35:44,207
Speaker 2: very confronting, violent image that makes you really understand what

740
00:35:44,327 --> 00:35:46,607
Speaker 2: you're doing to your physical self. And that's what this

741
00:35:46,767 --> 00:35:47,447
Speaker 2: movie explores.

742
00:35:47,567 --> 00:35:51,127
Speaker 4: And it's complicated because it's a violence perpetrated upon the self, yes,

743
00:35:51,247 --> 00:35:54,567
Speaker 4: which is what this is looking at, I think and

744
00:35:55,407 --> 00:36:00,007
Speaker 4: what I've realized watching it. There's a remarkable scene which

745
00:36:00,087 --> 00:36:03,127
Speaker 4: is not a horror scene, although perhaps it is the

746
00:36:03,247 --> 00:36:06,487
Speaker 4: most horror scene. It's when Demi Moore looks in the mirror.

747
00:36:06,967 --> 00:36:08,367
Speaker 4: She's got makeup on it, and she's meant to be

748
00:36:08,447 --> 00:36:11,247
Speaker 4: going to a day and she's kind of being haunted

749
00:36:11,407 --> 00:36:13,967
Speaker 4: by the image of her younger version of herself, and

750
00:36:14,047 --> 00:36:16,247
Speaker 4: every time she looks in the mirror, she looks great,

751
00:36:16,367 --> 00:36:18,527
Speaker 4: but to her she can only see the lines and

752
00:36:18,967 --> 00:36:21,647
Speaker 4: how the makeup isn't right, and it's almost like she

753
00:36:21,807 --> 00:36:25,647
Speaker 4: tries to scratch her face off, like she tries to

754
00:36:25,727 --> 00:36:27,487
Speaker 4: pull it off because she's so horrified.

755
00:36:27,687 --> 00:36:30,487
Speaker 1: First she tries putting on more makeup and then less makeup,

756
00:36:30,527 --> 00:36:33,207
Speaker 1: and then she changes the top, and then she kind

757
00:36:33,247 --> 00:36:36,207
Speaker 1: of tries to do something with her hair. And I

758
00:36:36,287 --> 00:36:38,527
Speaker 1: think we all know what that feels like when it's like,

759
00:36:39,087 --> 00:36:41,767
Speaker 1: what's looking back at me? It's not how I feel,

760
00:36:41,967 --> 00:36:44,647
Speaker 1: and it's not what I want to portray to the world.

761
00:36:45,207 --> 00:36:48,967
Speaker 1: And what can I do to change what I see,

762
00:36:49,287 --> 00:36:52,967
Speaker 1: which is my face and my body to conform to

763
00:36:53,127 --> 00:36:57,727
Speaker 1: what society wants me to look like or seizes desirable

764
00:36:57,767 --> 00:37:00,807
Speaker 1: and valuable and this beauty standard that I've internalized. So

765
00:37:00,927 --> 00:37:02,967
Speaker 1: it's not that any I mean, yes, She literally has

766
00:37:03,007 --> 00:37:06,047
Speaker 1: people saying you're too old, get off television. But she's

767
00:37:06,127 --> 00:37:08,727
Speaker 1: internalized it as well. So even when there's nobody around

768
00:37:09,247 --> 00:37:13,287
Speaker 1: and there's no stakes, she applies those same beauty standards

769
00:37:13,327 --> 00:37:15,127
Speaker 1: to herself. And I think that's what some people don't

770
00:37:15,167 --> 00:37:18,087
Speaker 1: understand when we talk about the male gaze. We've all

771
00:37:18,207 --> 00:37:22,207
Speaker 1: internalized the male gaze. It's not actually men saying go

772
00:37:22,367 --> 00:37:26,887
Speaker 1: get botox or be skinnier or whatever. We've internalized that,

773
00:37:26,967 --> 00:37:30,727
Speaker 1: and some people have internalized it more than others. And

774
00:37:30,887 --> 00:37:33,727
Speaker 1: that's why I always find it very trite just to say, oh,

775
00:37:33,887 --> 00:37:37,487
Speaker 1: you know, getting older is a luxury, and love yourself

776
00:37:37,567 --> 00:37:39,967
Speaker 1: and love your body. It's not as simple as that.

777
00:37:40,407 --> 00:37:44,207
Speaker 4: What that scene spoke to was how much one must

778
00:37:44,327 --> 00:37:46,887
Speaker 4: have to hate themselves in order to undergo some of

779
00:37:47,007 --> 00:37:47,687
Speaker 4: these surgeries.

780
00:37:47,807 --> 00:37:52,007
Speaker 1: So there's a real or house skin maybe hate, but

781
00:37:52,127 --> 00:37:53,487
Speaker 1: also fear fear.

782
00:37:53,607 --> 00:37:55,767
Speaker 4: But there's a mocking and there's a derision, and there's

783
00:37:55,767 --> 00:37:58,967
Speaker 4: almost like a point in laugh quite literally in parts

784
00:37:58,967 --> 00:38:02,567
Speaker 4: of this movie when it comes to women who try.

785
00:38:02,687 --> 00:38:05,287
Speaker 4: And there's a story just in the news today about

786
00:38:05,367 --> 00:38:08,607
Speaker 4: a woman in the UK who has died after a

787
00:38:08,647 --> 00:38:12,647
Speaker 4: liquid Brisillian butt lift. She was thirty three with five kids.

788
00:38:13,287 --> 00:38:16,927
Speaker 4: The tone of it all, it's it's more blaming, yeah,

789
00:38:17,007 --> 00:38:21,007
Speaker 4: and also like victim blaming to a degree, but it's.

790
00:38:20,967 --> 00:38:22,927
Speaker 1: Like serves you right for being so vain, yes, and

791
00:38:23,087 --> 00:38:24,487
Speaker 1: so superficial, and it's.

792
00:38:24,367 --> 00:38:27,607
Speaker 4: About so much more than it's like vanity in a

793
00:38:27,647 --> 00:38:30,167
Speaker 4: way is the symptom. But that surgery as well as

794
00:38:30,207 --> 00:38:32,767
Speaker 4: a facelift, as well as a breast augmentation, whatever your

795
00:38:32,847 --> 00:38:35,607
Speaker 4: choice is. I'm not judging them, but they are full

796
00:38:35,687 --> 00:38:37,967
Speaker 4: on like that takes a lot.

797
00:38:38,167 --> 00:38:40,327
Speaker 1: It's not like a bit of hair dyets and makeup. Yeah.

798
00:38:40,407 --> 00:38:43,247
Speaker 4: And then when you come out that way and you

799
00:38:43,407 --> 00:38:47,127
Speaker 4: inevitably do get older the way that you are then

800
00:38:47,287 --> 00:38:50,967
Speaker 4: mocked and you're conspicuous in a new way where everyone.

801
00:38:50,687 --> 00:38:51,807
Speaker 3: Goes, look at you.

802
00:38:51,967 --> 00:38:52,727
Speaker 1: You have stuff.

803
00:38:52,807 --> 00:38:54,727
Speaker 4: She's had work, which in that way I thought that

804
00:38:54,967 --> 00:38:57,127
Speaker 4: more like even her casting was.

805
00:38:57,207 --> 00:39:00,287
Speaker 2: Very brilliant, was very brilliant. I think it was brilliant casting.

806
00:39:00,367 --> 00:39:02,087
Speaker 2: And I've seen a lot of that oh she's so

807
00:39:02,247 --> 00:39:04,767
Speaker 2: brave commentary and rolled my eyes. But actually having seen

808
00:39:04,807 --> 00:39:07,727
Speaker 2: the movie, I think she is really brave. But there

809
00:39:07,807 --> 00:39:09,887
Speaker 2: are things in this movie that will push your buttons

810
00:39:09,967 --> 00:39:10,807
Speaker 2: if you go and see it.

811
00:39:10,927 --> 00:39:11,047
Speaker 1: Right.

812
00:39:11,207 --> 00:39:13,487
Speaker 2: Some of the criticism I've seen is that the movie

813
00:39:13,567 --> 00:39:16,527
Speaker 2: itself seems to fetishize the young body. But then I

814
00:39:16,687 --> 00:39:18,647
Speaker 2: understand what they're trying to do. What the director was

815
00:39:18,687 --> 00:39:21,487
Speaker 2: trying to do was to talk about how much we've

816
00:39:21,527 --> 00:39:24,127
Speaker 2: all been conditioned to desire that, as you say here,

817
00:39:24,167 --> 00:39:27,167
Speaker 2: but there are a lot of very lingering our shots,

818
00:39:27,247 --> 00:39:30,367
Speaker 2: for example. And then also the other part that pushed

819
00:39:30,367 --> 00:39:32,687
Speaker 2: my button. I started muttering to Jesse about it is

820
00:39:32,767 --> 00:39:36,807
Speaker 2: that when Elizabeth Sparkle is her normal old self, because

821
00:39:36,807 --> 00:39:38,807
Speaker 2: she can alternate between being the young self and the

822
00:39:38,847 --> 00:39:42,607
Speaker 2: old self, she is a sad old lady in Verticoma's

823
00:39:42,647 --> 00:39:44,607
Speaker 2: in her bathrobe who just sits in front of the

824
00:39:44,687 --> 00:39:48,767
Speaker 2: TV watching infomercials and feeling terrible about herself. And I

825
00:39:48,927 --> 00:39:51,527
Speaker 2: was like, oh my godness, that what we're supposed to

826
00:39:51,607 --> 00:39:53,807
Speaker 2: be like is that, well how everybody sees us like,

827
00:39:53,887 --> 00:39:55,767
Speaker 2: there are a lot of It pushes a lot of buttons,

828
00:39:55,767 --> 00:39:58,007
Speaker 2: which to me is the sign of a.

829
00:39:58,127 --> 00:40:00,807
Speaker 1: Really good, yeah movie. I can't stop thinking about it.

830
00:40:00,887 --> 00:40:03,767
Speaker 1: And my daughter Coco came with us as well, and

831
00:40:04,447 --> 00:40:06,447
Speaker 1: she didn't know anything about it, and I'm like, come

832
00:40:06,487 --> 00:40:08,487
Speaker 1: to the movie through us, so it'll be fun. She's like,

833
00:40:08,927 --> 00:40:13,287
Speaker 1: fun could be watching. I watched it the day before

834
00:40:13,327 --> 00:40:16,047
Speaker 1: I turned fifty three this week, and I woke up

835
00:40:16,127 --> 00:40:19,567
Speaker 1: on my fifty third birthday just really quite anxious. I'm

836
00:40:19,607 --> 00:40:22,727
Speaker 1: thinking about it a lot because it's all about at

837
00:40:22,847 --> 00:40:26,847
Speaker 1: what cost? At what cost? What price will you pay

838
00:40:27,527 --> 00:40:31,687
Speaker 1: to look a little bit younger? What financial prices, what

839
00:40:31,807 --> 00:40:34,727
Speaker 1: physical price? How much pain will you undergo, how much humiliation?

840
00:40:35,127 --> 00:40:37,487
Speaker 1: How much risk will you take? And is it worth it?

841
00:40:37,807 --> 00:40:39,767
Speaker 4: And sort of like, be honest, do you give a

842
00:40:39,807 --> 00:40:42,527
Speaker 4: shit what's in the substance because that's never really explored,

843
00:40:42,607 --> 00:40:43,127
Speaker 4: like what it is?

844
00:40:43,407 --> 00:40:47,407
Speaker 1: Well, that's the risk. She takes it without even knowing

845
00:40:47,447 --> 00:40:49,607
Speaker 1: it's an amazing film, Like I know what you're saying,

846
00:40:49,607 --> 00:40:52,207
Speaker 1: it's funny. Hole those things didn't push my buttons because

847
00:40:52,207 --> 00:40:55,447
Speaker 1: I mean, this movie's been described as a primal scream

848
00:40:55,487 --> 00:41:01,127
Speaker 1: of rage against beauty standards and society and a feminist masterpiece,

849
00:41:01,127 --> 00:41:04,007
Speaker 1: which I really really think it is, and I can't

850
00:41:04,047 --> 00:41:05,727
Speaker 1: stop thinking about it, And all I want to do

851
00:41:05,847 --> 00:41:06,567
Speaker 1: is talk about.

852
00:41:06,367 --> 00:41:09,727
Speaker 4: It when we know what the cost is. I think

853
00:41:09,767 --> 00:41:12,647
Speaker 4: it's industry specific as well. Lots of people listening were

854
00:41:12,727 --> 00:41:17,007
Speaker 4: like the industry that they work in doesn't necessarily punish

855
00:41:17,127 --> 00:41:20,687
Speaker 4: them for aging, and the Hollywood context is a very specific.

856
00:41:20,767 --> 00:41:22,487
Speaker 1: But I think everybody lives in the world, and I

857
00:41:22,607 --> 00:41:26,887
Speaker 1: just think some people are better at shrugging off those

858
00:41:26,927 --> 00:41:30,167
Speaker 1: beauty standards and saying I'm not internalizing them. I'm not

859
00:41:30,887 --> 00:41:32,207
Speaker 1: or else I'm going to look in the mirror and

860
00:41:32,327 --> 00:41:34,887
Speaker 1: just go, oh, well, aging my neck a bit wrinkly.

861
00:41:35,447 --> 00:41:36,847
Speaker 1: Age people are just better than others.

862
00:41:36,967 --> 00:41:38,207
Speaker 3: I think it's so much deeper.

863
00:41:38,447 --> 00:41:42,607
Speaker 4: The one thing is I have lines on my goodness, irrelevance, invisibility.

864
00:41:42,967 --> 00:41:44,847
Speaker 4: I'm doing an equation in my head that guess what

865
00:41:45,127 --> 00:41:49,287
Speaker 4: part of it is correct that my value to maybe

866
00:41:49,407 --> 00:41:51,807
Speaker 4: the opposite sex or whatever this is. Things that we've

867
00:41:51,887 --> 00:41:55,407
Speaker 4: internalized might go down. I might feel like people don't

868
00:41:55,607 --> 00:41:58,367
Speaker 4: listen to me in the same way. The other thing

869
00:41:58,607 --> 00:42:02,887
Speaker 4: I kept thinking was about how much of our lives

870
00:42:02,967 --> 00:42:06,567
Speaker 4: we've spent feeling old when we're not because we're aging.

871
00:42:06,727 --> 00:42:09,927
Speaker 4: Like I've felt I'm turning thirty four in December, and

872
00:42:10,647 --> 00:42:15,607
Speaker 4: I've noticed signs of aging because capitalism points them out.

873
00:42:16,047 --> 00:42:18,487
Speaker 3: I've started having that feeling now. I think that was

874
00:42:18,527 --> 00:42:20,727
Speaker 3: the point in the movie, was that when she felt, oh,

875
00:42:20,807 --> 00:42:21,367
Speaker 3: you're not old.

876
00:42:21,567 --> 00:42:23,927
Speaker 2: It was a literal manifestation of her being pushed out

877
00:42:23,967 --> 00:42:26,047
Speaker 2: because she's old. Yeah, and that is how old. And

878
00:42:26,127 --> 00:42:28,167
Speaker 2: it's true to a point. It's probably less true now

879
00:42:28,207 --> 00:42:30,727
Speaker 2: than it has been. Ironically, it's also how young people

880
00:42:30,767 --> 00:42:32,527
Speaker 2: feel about how they can't get in because they are

881
00:42:32,847 --> 00:42:34,287
Speaker 2: like women are always made to feel, there are only

882
00:42:34,327 --> 00:42:35,927
Speaker 2: so many spaces for us, and we can only have

883
00:42:36,007 --> 00:42:37,727
Speaker 2: these ones for the old ladies and these ones for

884
00:42:37,807 --> 00:42:38,927
Speaker 2: the young ladies, and these are.

885
00:42:38,927 --> 00:42:39,767
Speaker 3: But don't you reckon that?

886
00:42:40,087 --> 00:42:42,607
Speaker 4: The aging even more so, like whether it's lines or

887
00:42:42,647 --> 00:42:45,447
Speaker 4: sunspots or gray hair, the reason that shocks us, and

888
00:42:45,447 --> 00:42:47,847
Speaker 4: I've seen it shock men, like gray hair, for example,

889
00:42:48,647 --> 00:42:51,167
Speaker 4: is that we go time is passing. Yes, I am

890
00:42:51,207 --> 00:42:54,607
Speaker 4: getting older, I am closer to death. Aging is a

891
00:42:54,647 --> 00:42:57,007
Speaker 4: horror movie because it's like the big truth that we

892
00:42:57,087 --> 00:42:59,127
Speaker 4: all spend our entire lives trying not to think about

893
00:42:59,487 --> 00:43:01,527
Speaker 4: is imprinted on our faces, and one.

894
00:43:01,527 --> 00:43:04,607
Speaker 1: Hundred percent that's what that's my midlife crisis often look

895
00:43:04,647 --> 00:43:06,687
Speaker 1: different for men and women. Men might have affairs with

896
00:43:06,767 --> 00:43:10,247
Speaker 1: younger women or go and start bi or training for

897
00:43:10,287 --> 00:43:13,967
Speaker 1: a marathon, and women will look at surgery, you know,

898
00:43:14,207 --> 00:43:16,887
Speaker 1: And it's because it's like, well, what does it mean

899
00:43:17,047 --> 00:43:20,847
Speaker 1: to us to present as younger in the world. For men,

900
00:43:20,967 --> 00:43:24,407
Speaker 1: it's about virality and physical strength, and for women it's

901
00:43:24,407 --> 00:43:25,487
Speaker 1: about aesthetics.

902
00:43:25,767 --> 00:43:27,927
Speaker 2: We have to fight it, though maybe it can't be

903
00:43:28,047 --> 00:43:29,807
Speaker 2: in your place of like, well, that's how it is.

904
00:43:29,887 --> 00:43:33,047
Speaker 2: It's like the only answer is to care less. The

905
00:43:33,247 --> 00:43:33,967
Speaker 2: only answer.

906
00:43:34,407 --> 00:43:35,367
Speaker 1: I don't know how you can.

907
00:43:35,767 --> 00:43:37,807
Speaker 2: You have to teach yourself like you do about anything

908
00:43:37,927 --> 00:43:38,487
Speaker 2: like yes.

909
00:43:38,487 --> 00:43:40,727
Speaker 4: Like the smartphones does all the parents decide that they

910
00:43:40,767 --> 00:43:43,767
Speaker 4: don't give the smartphones anymore and we all have to

911
00:43:43,847 --> 00:43:45,847
Speaker 4: hold hands and so let's.

912
00:43:45,647 --> 00:43:45,967
Speaker 1: Just do it.

913
00:43:46,127 --> 00:43:47,527
Speaker 2: I don't mean to hold hands in allgo. We're not

914
00:43:47,567 --> 00:43:49,687
Speaker 2: doing anything to our faces, but you change it in

915
00:43:49,767 --> 00:43:52,287
Speaker 2: a monologue. You should listen to my episode about this

916
00:43:52,407 --> 00:43:55,127
Speaker 2: on mid because my manifesto with Ali Dado is all

917
00:43:55,167 --> 00:43:55,487
Speaker 2: about this.

918
00:43:56,047 --> 00:43:57,967
Speaker 1: Will you put a link in the show notes place because.

919
00:43:57,767 --> 00:44:00,807
Speaker 2: We we will A big thank you. I think that

920
00:44:00,927 --> 00:44:03,207
Speaker 2: was a marathon show out louder, so thank you for

921
00:44:03,287 --> 00:44:05,127
Speaker 2: being with us if you're still here, and thank you

922
00:44:05,207 --> 00:44:07,527
Speaker 2: to our fabulous team for putting this show together. We

923
00:44:07,647 --> 00:44:09,207
Speaker 2: are going to be back in your ears tomorrow.

924
00:44:09,327 --> 00:44:13,767
Speaker 4: Bye bye by shout out to any mother and MEA

925
00:44:13,847 --> 00:44:16,647
Speaker 4: subscribers listening. If you love the show and you want

926
00:44:16,687 --> 00:44:19,647
Speaker 4: to support us, subscribing to MoMA Mia is the very

927
00:44:19,767 --> 00:44:20,807
Speaker 4: best way to do so.

928
00:44:21,247 --> 00:44:22,967
Speaker 3: There's a link in the episode description