1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,142 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges 2 00:00:16,222 --> 00:00:19,662 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was 3 00:00:19,702 --> 00:00:25,262 Speaker 1: recorded on it's early on a February morning in Melbourne 4 00:00:25,262 --> 00:00:28,542 Speaker 1: in two thousand and five, and Detective Nerell Fraser is 5 00:00:28,582 --> 00:00:31,742 Speaker 1: responding to reports of a vehicle parked near the city's 6 00:00:31,862 --> 00:00:35,302 Speaker 1: Shrine of Remembrance. A security guard has called it in 7 00:00:35,382 --> 00:00:39,542 Speaker 1: after noticing the red master belonging to missing woman Maria Corp. 8 00:00:40,462 --> 00:00:42,342 Speaker 1: The fifty year old hasn't been seen for a couple 9 00:00:42,342 --> 00:00:45,502 Speaker 1: of days now, and as Nerell approaches the car that's 10 00:00:45,542 --> 00:00:48,862 Speaker 1: been sitting out in the Australian summer heat, she's hit 11 00:00:49,022 --> 00:00:54,422 Speaker 1: by a pungent smell of death. Her worst fears are confirmed. 12 00:00:54,982 --> 00:00:59,302 Speaker 1: Inside the car's boot is Maria. There are signs of 13 00:00:59,382 --> 00:01:02,782 Speaker 1: violence visible on her frail frame and her body is 14 00:01:02,822 --> 00:01:07,262 Speaker 1: in a state of decomposition. Norell's mind immediately starts thinking 15 00:01:07,342 --> 00:01:12,582 Speaker 1: about the impending murder investigation, but then something unexpected happens. 16 00:01:13,502 --> 00:01:24,742 Speaker 1: She notices Maria is breathing. I'm Jemma Bath and this 17 00:01:24,902 --> 00:01:28,542 Speaker 1: is true Crime. Conversations a Muma Mea podcast exploring the 18 00:01:28,582 --> 00:01:31,902 Speaker 1: world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who 19 00:01:31,942 --> 00:01:35,742 Speaker 1: know the most about them. In media headlines at the time, 20 00:01:36,262 --> 00:01:39,502 Speaker 1: Maria's case was nicknamed the Body in the Boot Case, 21 00:01:40,142 --> 00:01:43,662 Speaker 1: a grim and impersonal summation of a horrific crime against 22 00:01:43,702 --> 00:01:47,782 Speaker 1: a Melbourne mother. It was a crime that captivated the country. 23 00:01:48,102 --> 00:01:51,102 Speaker 1: A woman left for dead, an a fair, a gruesome 24 00:01:51,182 --> 00:01:55,462 Speaker 1: murder plot, a battle over euthanasia, and a suicide. It 25 00:01:55,582 --> 00:01:59,502 Speaker 1: was one of those stories that just kept evolving. This 26 00:01:59,662 --> 00:02:04,062 Speaker 1: February marks twenty years since Maria was found barely alive 27 00:02:04,542 --> 00:02:06,942 Speaker 1: in the boot of her car. She died a few 28 00:02:06,982 --> 00:02:11,062 Speaker 1: months later. Norell Fraser was a detective on the case 29 00:02:11,222 --> 00:02:13,382 Speaker 1: and was a member of the Victorian Police Force for 30 00:02:13,422 --> 00:02:19,382 Speaker 1: twenty seven years. NoREL joins us. Now, Norell, can you 31 00:02:19,422 --> 00:02:22,982 Speaker 1: tell us a bit about who Maria was prior to 32 00:02:23,022 --> 00:02:24,022 Speaker 1: two thousand and five. 33 00:02:24,782 --> 00:02:29,902 Speaker 2: Maria was a fifty year old mother of two children. 34 00:02:31,462 --> 00:02:35,582 Speaker 2: I know that she was born in Portugal. She was 35 00:02:35,662 --> 00:02:40,582 Speaker 2: widowed in nineteen eighty seven. She had one child in 36 00:02:40,622 --> 00:02:43,862 Speaker 2: that marriage, and that was Laura. And when I got 37 00:02:43,902 --> 00:02:48,382 Speaker 2: involved in this case, Laura was a young twenty something, 38 00:02:48,462 --> 00:02:55,822 Speaker 2: maybe twenty three twenty four. Maria worked in a lingerie. 39 00:02:56,142 --> 00:03:00,382 Speaker 2: I think it was Caser think in Campbellfield in Melbourne. 40 00:03:01,022 --> 00:03:05,902 Speaker 2: She met Joe. They were working together. I'm not sure where, 41 00:03:06,142 --> 00:03:09,262 Speaker 2: but I know they met at work. In fact, they 42 00:03:09,302 --> 00:03:12,942 Speaker 2: had an affair, had an affair with Maria. Joe was 43 00:03:12,982 --> 00:03:17,102 Speaker 2: married at the time to another woman. They had an 44 00:03:17,102 --> 00:03:19,942 Speaker 2: affair and they got together and they got married. They 45 00:03:20,102 --> 00:03:24,582 Speaker 2: married in nineteen ninety one. They had a son, Damien, 46 00:03:24,742 --> 00:03:29,302 Speaker 2: a couple of years later. I remember how spiritual Maria was, 47 00:03:29,422 --> 00:03:35,302 Speaker 2: and I am talking serious, seriously spiritual. She had a 48 00:03:35,382 --> 00:03:39,462 Speaker 2: prayer room in her house that was like a shrine 49 00:03:39,582 --> 00:03:43,382 Speaker 2: to her former husband, the one that she was widowed to. 50 00:03:44,022 --> 00:03:47,022 Speaker 2: Her and Joe, I think, from Maria's point of view, 51 00:03:48,862 --> 00:03:53,342 Speaker 2: and Joe were very happy. I think she was very 52 00:03:54,142 --> 00:03:59,382 Speaker 2: surprised when Joe suggested the two of them go on 53 00:03:59,782 --> 00:04:04,982 Speaker 2: a site on the internet to find a threesome, because 54 00:04:05,062 --> 00:04:07,422 Speaker 2: Joe wanted to spice up their sex life a bit, 55 00:04:07,462 --> 00:04:11,822 Speaker 2: and she was I know she was through views. She 56 00:04:11,982 --> 00:04:18,022 Speaker 2: was very, very hesitant. She felt very uncomfortable about going 57 00:04:18,062 --> 00:04:23,302 Speaker 2: on to these sites, but Joe wanted to spice up 58 00:04:23,342 --> 00:04:26,302 Speaker 2: their sex life, and to be honest, it's the worst 59 00:04:26,302 --> 00:04:28,862 Speaker 2: decision she ever made. Because on the other end of 60 00:04:28,942 --> 00:04:34,222 Speaker 2: the internet was Tanya Herman, who also was looking for 61 00:04:34,262 --> 00:04:37,702 Speaker 2: a threesome, and the three of them got together and 62 00:04:38,062 --> 00:04:42,822 Speaker 2: do you want a surprise, Hey, Joe and Tanya fell 63 00:04:42,902 --> 00:04:45,062 Speaker 2: in lust, in love, whatever you want to call it. 64 00:04:45,782 --> 00:04:52,462 Speaker 2: And that's when it all turned very, very sour. When 65 00:04:52,502 --> 00:04:57,502 Speaker 2: I talk about a serious spiritual side. We found out 66 00:04:58,342 --> 00:05:02,182 Speaker 2: during our investigations that Maria had spent something like one 67 00:05:02,302 --> 00:05:06,462 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty thousand dollars with a spiritual advisor. 68 00:05:06,822 --> 00:05:07,182 Speaker 1: Wow. 69 00:05:07,942 --> 00:05:10,462 Speaker 2: That's a lot of money, isn't it. 70 00:05:10,462 --> 00:05:12,062 Speaker 1: It definitely was a big part of her life then, 71 00:05:12,622 --> 00:05:18,142 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, huge. So Maria obviously knew about Tanya. But 72 00:05:18,182 --> 00:05:22,262 Speaker 1: did she know that this was a years long affair 73 00:05:22,702 --> 00:05:26,102 Speaker 1: because it got quite serious between Joe and Tanya, didn't it. 74 00:05:26,982 --> 00:05:30,862 Speaker 2: Oh? Very She had no idea. Joe was telling Maria 75 00:05:30,942 --> 00:05:33,662 Speaker 2: that for work he was required to go into state, 76 00:05:34,102 --> 00:05:38,822 Speaker 2: you know, country victorious, so he would take tenure on 77 00:05:39,062 --> 00:05:43,222 Speaker 2: these Well, he wasn't actually going into state. He was 78 00:05:43,382 --> 00:05:46,942 Speaker 2: just living or spending a lot of time with Tanya. 79 00:05:47,382 --> 00:05:51,022 Speaker 2: But she had absolutely no idea, no idea. 80 00:05:51,782 --> 00:05:55,702 Speaker 1: When was Maria reported missing? And who by? 81 00:05:58,022 --> 00:06:01,422 Speaker 2: Why? Joe? It's not unusual in a missing person case 82 00:06:02,542 --> 00:06:07,702 Speaker 2: or the person that knows everything to report somebody missing. Oh, 83 00:06:07,702 --> 00:06:09,822 Speaker 2: I don't know what's happened. I don't know where she is. 84 00:06:09,982 --> 00:06:12,982 Speaker 2: But going back, it was the ninth of February of 85 00:06:13,062 --> 00:06:19,142 Speaker 2: two thousand and five, and what had happened was Maria 86 00:06:19,982 --> 00:06:23,902 Speaker 2: hadn't turned up to her work, which was very unusual, 87 00:06:23,942 --> 00:06:26,502 Speaker 2: hadn't rung to say I'm not going to be here 88 00:06:27,222 --> 00:06:30,862 Speaker 2: by having a sick day or whatever. But it got 89 00:06:30,902 --> 00:06:33,542 Speaker 2: to the point where she was supposed to pick up 90 00:06:33,542 --> 00:06:38,662 Speaker 2: her son Damien from school. Maria was very regimented, would 91 00:06:38,662 --> 00:06:41,382 Speaker 2: pick up Damien every day, let's say three point thirty 92 00:06:41,502 --> 00:06:45,542 Speaker 2: from school, and on this particular day, the ninth of February, 93 00:06:46,822 --> 00:06:50,822 Speaker 2: she didn't turn up to take Damien home. So the 94 00:06:50,862 --> 00:06:54,742 Speaker 2: school rang Maria to say where are you, And of 95 00:06:54,742 --> 00:06:57,982 Speaker 2: course Maria's phone went through to message banks, so then 96 00:06:58,022 --> 00:07:04,742 Speaker 2: they ranked Joe and Joe acted obviously very surprised or 97 00:07:04,782 --> 00:07:08,742 Speaker 2: she should be there. So Joe says that he made 98 00:07:08,742 --> 00:07:12,342 Speaker 2: a number of calls and tried to find Maria just 99 00:07:12,422 --> 00:07:14,982 Speaker 2: as an aside. But of course he went to Tenures 100 00:07:15,662 --> 00:07:19,102 Speaker 2: and they were sorting out their story. But he said 101 00:07:19,102 --> 00:07:22,382 Speaker 2: that he'd been looking for anyway. That night he went 102 00:07:22,422 --> 00:07:26,222 Speaker 2: to the Craigibourn Police station to report Maria as missing, 103 00:07:26,462 --> 00:07:29,422 Speaker 2: very very concerned, a very concerned husband. 104 00:07:30,302 --> 00:07:34,862 Speaker 1: People are reported missing every day in Australia. Did this 105 00:07:34,982 --> 00:07:38,462 Speaker 1: missing person report ring alarm bells? 106 00:07:39,462 --> 00:07:43,302 Speaker 2: Well, it initially goes. He reported it at the Craigiebourn 107 00:07:43,422 --> 00:07:49,462 Speaker 2: Police station and generally when somebody goes missing, reports are taken. 108 00:07:49,902 --> 00:07:53,102 Speaker 2: It's funny the alarm bells, I believe started the minute 109 00:07:53,102 --> 00:07:59,302 Speaker 2: that Joe came in the Craigieburn police. It's hard to explain, 110 00:07:59,422 --> 00:08:02,502 Speaker 2: isn't it, But they just had this gut feeling that 111 00:08:02,782 --> 00:08:07,862 Speaker 2: something wasn't right. It was very very unusual for Maria 112 00:08:07,982 --> 00:08:11,462 Speaker 2: not to pick up her son, because son was her world. 113 00:08:12,502 --> 00:08:15,982 Speaker 2: It was very unusual for Maria not to go to work. 114 00:08:17,262 --> 00:08:21,062 Speaker 2: So what happens is the police take the initial reports, 115 00:08:21,102 --> 00:08:24,302 Speaker 2: they ask all the questions. But then what happens is 116 00:08:24,462 --> 00:08:29,502 Speaker 2: every reported person missing in a Victoria goes on to 117 00:08:30,102 --> 00:08:34,382 Speaker 2: our LEAPS, the Victoria Police's system like it's called LEAP, 118 00:08:34,462 --> 00:08:39,582 Speaker 2: the Law Enforcement Assistance Program, so it is put onto 119 00:08:39,742 --> 00:08:43,742 Speaker 2: a system and what happens is the Missing Persons Unit. 120 00:08:43,822 --> 00:08:48,902 Speaker 2: We have an analyst there and the analyst monitors every 121 00:08:49,142 --> 00:08:54,542 Speaker 2: reported missing person and it's the analyst who picked that 122 00:08:54,662 --> 00:08:59,302 Speaker 2: up and thought, hmm, there's something not right there. So 123 00:08:59,342 --> 00:09:03,302 Speaker 2: the analyst does a couple of very quick checks, let's say, 124 00:09:03,422 --> 00:09:09,222 Speaker 2: telephone records and banking records, and Maria's touched nothing. So 125 00:09:09,302 --> 00:09:12,222 Speaker 2: the analyst then a couple of other things. But then 126 00:09:12,462 --> 00:09:15,062 Speaker 2: the analyst, this is generally what happens, and I know 127 00:09:15,182 --> 00:09:17,662 Speaker 2: this happened with this case, is the analyst went into 128 00:09:17,902 --> 00:09:21,862 Speaker 2: the boss at a missing person's unit, Steve Widell, and 129 00:09:22,342 --> 00:09:27,222 Speaker 2: Helen says to Steve, I don't like this this. I 130 00:09:27,222 --> 00:09:28,702 Speaker 2: don't know if she used the term, but this is 131 00:09:28,742 --> 00:09:31,222 Speaker 2: what we all. This smells. We can smell a rat. 132 00:09:32,182 --> 00:09:35,942 Speaker 2: So Steve has a look at it, and then Steve 133 00:09:35,982 --> 00:09:39,022 Speaker 2: pretty much decides there and then whether we're going to 134 00:09:39,342 --> 00:09:44,302 Speaker 2: make a couple of inquiries. So somebody from missing Person's ring, 135 00:09:45,142 --> 00:09:47,822 Speaker 2: Craigie Burned police get a bit more information, and I 136 00:09:47,822 --> 00:09:53,102 Speaker 2: think that's when within hours Steve has decided we're going 137 00:09:53,142 --> 00:09:55,262 Speaker 2: to take it on this something not right here. So 138 00:09:55,582 --> 00:09:57,822 Speaker 2: I know the next morning, on the tenth of feb 139 00:09:58,142 --> 00:10:00,742 Speaker 2: we are coming to work and Steve says, we're all 140 00:10:00,782 --> 00:10:04,342 Speaker 2: going to craigie Burn. So we went to craigie Burn. 141 00:10:05,182 --> 00:10:08,222 Speaker 2: We get a briefing by the craigie Burn police station 142 00:10:09,142 --> 00:10:13,542 Speaker 2: and they're by stage. I believe they had taken a 143 00:10:13,622 --> 00:10:17,542 Speaker 2: statement from Joe, and that's very basic stuff. You know, 144 00:10:17,622 --> 00:10:20,542 Speaker 2: you take a statement from the last person that saw her, 145 00:10:21,222 --> 00:10:24,262 Speaker 2: and just a bit of history you know about their marriage, 146 00:10:25,102 --> 00:10:29,062 Speaker 2: about where Maria worked, who her friends were, where he 147 00:10:29,182 --> 00:10:32,022 Speaker 2: thinks she could be, all that sort of stuff, and 148 00:10:32,742 --> 00:10:36,302 Speaker 2: then it's decided we're taking it on like it's going 149 00:10:36,342 --> 00:10:39,022 Speaker 2: to And it's not to say that the local police 150 00:10:39,102 --> 00:10:42,702 Speaker 2: can't and the local detectives can't do it, but we 151 00:10:42,862 --> 00:10:47,782 Speaker 2: have the resources. We have support services that are just 152 00:10:47,822 --> 00:10:51,222 Speaker 2: at our fingertips, which the locals don't, but we generally 153 00:10:51,582 --> 00:10:54,062 Speaker 2: would bring in a local as well, so that because 154 00:10:54,062 --> 00:10:56,782 Speaker 2: they know the local detectives, because they know the area 155 00:10:56,862 --> 00:11:00,022 Speaker 2: back the front. So that's how that works. 156 00:11:00,302 --> 00:11:02,742 Speaker 1: So instead of being a detective that was linked to 157 00:11:02,782 --> 00:11:05,342 Speaker 1: a local kind of police station at the time, you 158 00:11:05,502 --> 00:11:07,822 Speaker 1: were a detective within the missing person's unit. 159 00:11:08,222 --> 00:11:08,702 Speaker 2: That's right. 160 00:11:09,142 --> 00:11:12,422 Speaker 1: So you're brought into the case. You've got Maria who 161 00:11:12,462 --> 00:11:17,062 Speaker 1: is missing, You've got an initial statement from Joe. What's next, 162 00:11:17,102 --> 00:11:20,822 Speaker 1: because over the next four days you're basically looking for Maria. 163 00:11:20,862 --> 00:11:22,262 Speaker 1: An investigation is launched. 164 00:11:23,102 --> 00:11:26,662 Speaker 2: Correct, So what we do is in a team and 165 00:11:26,702 --> 00:11:30,302 Speaker 2: there's a team of probably four or five detectives from 166 00:11:30,382 --> 00:11:32,902 Speaker 2: the Missing Person's unit, plus maybe one or two from 167 00:11:32,942 --> 00:11:37,422 Speaker 2: the local CI, the local criminal investigation branch. And so 168 00:11:37,502 --> 00:11:40,782 Speaker 2: what happens is we all get it's very much like CSI. 169 00:11:41,222 --> 00:11:46,022 Speaker 2: There's a big whiteboard put up. So Norell, I want 170 00:11:46,062 --> 00:11:50,742 Speaker 2: you to go and I don't know, speak to Maria's friends, Tim, 171 00:11:50,862 --> 00:11:53,542 Speaker 2: I want you to go and go out with Joe 172 00:11:53,622 --> 00:11:56,422 Speaker 2: to the house. But we all get our different tasks, 173 00:11:57,102 --> 00:12:02,302 Speaker 2: and by this stage we knew that Joe had had 174 00:12:02,422 --> 00:12:05,782 Speaker 2: According to him, Joe had had an affair with this 175 00:12:05,822 --> 00:12:11,142 Speaker 2: woman called Tanua, and at it all finished from Joe, 176 00:12:11,542 --> 00:12:15,022 Speaker 2: it all finished. But you know, because he was asked, 177 00:12:15,142 --> 00:12:18,262 Speaker 2: who do you think would if something happened to Maria? 178 00:12:18,622 --> 00:12:20,902 Speaker 2: Who do you think might do this something like this? 179 00:12:20,982 --> 00:12:23,342 Speaker 2: And he said, well, the only person I can think 180 00:12:23,422 --> 00:12:26,502 Speaker 2: of is the lady that I had an affair with. 181 00:12:27,262 --> 00:12:28,702 Speaker 1: So he threw her under the bus. 182 00:12:29,262 --> 00:12:32,542 Speaker 2: He put her under the bus the first opportunity he 183 00:12:32,582 --> 00:12:36,942 Speaker 2: could get. So what happens is I get the job 184 00:12:37,062 --> 00:12:39,462 Speaker 2: myself and a colleague. We get the job of going 185 00:12:39,462 --> 00:12:41,582 Speaker 2: out and speaking to Tan. You're finding out where she 186 00:12:41,702 --> 00:12:44,542 Speaker 2: lives and going out and speaking to her and going 187 00:12:44,542 --> 00:12:46,382 Speaker 2: out and speaking to We were there with him. I 188 00:12:46,382 --> 00:12:50,222 Speaker 2: think it was probably the next day. I can remember 189 00:12:50,462 --> 00:12:53,862 Speaker 2: when we went to the front door. She answered the 190 00:12:53,902 --> 00:13:00,302 Speaker 2: door and she was very tall, very athletic, very accommodating, 191 00:13:00,502 --> 00:13:04,222 Speaker 2: really sort of oh, I don't know if sweets the 192 00:13:04,302 --> 00:13:07,742 Speaker 2: right word, but really nice. Oh, you know, come in. 193 00:13:08,942 --> 00:13:12,542 Speaker 2: But what we went with the information that Joe had 194 00:13:12,582 --> 00:13:16,462 Speaker 2: said that, oh, they'd had a bit of an affair. 195 00:13:17,462 --> 00:13:22,422 Speaker 2: It finished months ago. I don't know that he just 196 00:13:22,462 --> 00:13:24,902 Speaker 2: didn't think what we wouldn't go and speak to I 197 00:13:24,942 --> 00:13:26,982 Speaker 2: don't know what he thought, but of course we go 198 00:13:27,102 --> 00:13:30,462 Speaker 2: and speak to us, and you know, we ask if 199 00:13:30,462 --> 00:13:33,062 Speaker 2: we can sit down. You know, something's happened. There's a 200 00:13:33,102 --> 00:13:36,982 Speaker 2: woman missing, and she's, oh, oh really. We tell her 201 00:13:37,582 --> 00:13:40,102 Speaker 2: that it's Maria Corp. Do you know Maria Corp? And 202 00:13:40,102 --> 00:13:44,662 Speaker 2: she said, well, not really, but she's my partner's wife. 203 00:13:44,742 --> 00:13:47,022 Speaker 2: It was something like that, oh, can you tell us 204 00:13:47,062 --> 00:13:50,982 Speaker 2: about your partner? It was Jemma. It was like chalk 205 00:13:51,022 --> 00:13:51,622 Speaker 2: and cheese. 206 00:13:52,222 --> 00:13:54,622 Speaker 1: So her story was that they were together. 207 00:13:54,902 --> 00:14:00,462 Speaker 2: Absolutely, not just together. They were organizing a Joe was 208 00:14:00,702 --> 00:14:07,582 Speaker 2: organizing a commitment ceremony. Joe had purchased this unit that 209 00:14:07,662 --> 00:14:11,662 Speaker 2: she was staying in and paying the rent, and oh, 210 00:14:11,782 --> 00:14:14,862 Speaker 2: you know, it was all lovely and you know they 211 00:14:14,902 --> 00:14:17,102 Speaker 2: were going to live happily ever after. 212 00:14:17,342 --> 00:14:20,062 Speaker 1: It's an interesting decision by him, isn't it, Because of 213 00:14:20,062 --> 00:14:23,702 Speaker 1: course you're going to be able to refute it, that's right. 214 00:14:24,182 --> 00:14:26,542 Speaker 2: And of course at this stage we don't tell her 215 00:14:26,542 --> 00:14:29,182 Speaker 2: that Joe's put her under the bus. Like I said, 216 00:14:29,222 --> 00:14:31,222 Speaker 2: it was like chalk and cheese. It was we were 217 00:14:31,782 --> 00:14:33,582 Speaker 2: Joe must have thought we'd come down the last share 218 00:14:33,702 --> 00:14:34,502 Speaker 2: or something. I don't know. 219 00:14:34,702 --> 00:14:36,662 Speaker 1: How did you find Joe? Did you interview him in 220 00:14:36,702 --> 00:14:37,262 Speaker 1: those days? 221 00:14:38,062 --> 00:14:41,142 Speaker 2: No? I didn't have much to do with Joe. The 222 00:14:41,342 --> 00:14:44,862 Speaker 2: informant in the matter, Tim Peck, and the boys, the 223 00:14:44,902 --> 00:14:49,422 Speaker 2: boys in the crew, in the team, they spoke a 224 00:14:49,462 --> 00:14:51,342 Speaker 2: lot to Joe. Yeah, I spoke to him a bit, 225 00:14:51,582 --> 00:14:54,062 Speaker 2: but I found him to be honest. And I feel 226 00:14:54,062 --> 00:14:57,982 Speaker 2: bad saying this because I know that he has family, 227 00:14:58,702 --> 00:15:02,102 Speaker 2: you know, the kids are now adults. But I found 228 00:15:02,142 --> 00:15:07,902 Speaker 2: him to be a narcissist, a womanizer, God's He thought 229 00:15:07,982 --> 00:15:13,862 Speaker 2: it was God's gift to women. I just he walked 230 00:15:13,902 --> 00:15:17,982 Speaker 2: around with this strutch like I am shit hot. Sorry, 231 00:15:17,982 --> 00:15:20,142 Speaker 2: but that's how it was. You know, those men that 232 00:15:20,382 --> 00:15:23,062 Speaker 2: you know and I know you want me, you know, 233 00:15:23,662 --> 00:15:28,822 Speaker 2: that sort of person. And to be honest, I can understand, 234 00:15:28,902 --> 00:15:32,102 Speaker 2: oh God, In fact, I found him quite creepy in 235 00:15:32,142 --> 00:15:36,742 Speaker 2: that sense. But I can understand. He dressed really well, 236 00:15:37,542 --> 00:15:42,982 Speaker 2: he spoke really nicely. He was very oh please you 237 00:15:43,022 --> 00:15:47,062 Speaker 2: go first, Norell. So he was chivalrous, very and he 238 00:15:47,302 --> 00:15:52,902 Speaker 2: dressed really well, really smart. But nah, sorry, couldn't fool me. Joe. 239 00:15:54,142 --> 00:15:58,102 Speaker 1: So you obviously had these two stories from these two. 240 00:15:58,902 --> 00:16:01,142 Speaker 1: Were they suspects at that point or what were they 241 00:16:01,702 --> 00:16:02,542 Speaker 1: the minute. 242 00:16:02,222 --> 00:16:07,382 Speaker 2: That Tanya told us? It was the completely different story 243 00:16:07,462 --> 00:16:12,782 Speaker 2: to Joe Joe there, I mean, I don't know if 244 00:16:12,822 --> 00:16:16,262 Speaker 2: i'd call them suspects at that point, but certainly persons 245 00:16:16,302 --> 00:16:19,342 Speaker 2: of interest. There's quite a big difference. Joe is certainly 246 00:16:19,422 --> 00:16:23,102 Speaker 2: like you start to think, what's going on here? Why 247 00:16:23,222 --> 00:16:27,422 Speaker 2: is Joe saying this? And Tanya's you know, and for instance, 248 00:16:27,422 --> 00:16:32,342 Speaker 2: we found out things like Joe never left. Yeah, the 249 00:16:32,422 --> 00:16:36,582 Speaker 2: concern was Joe, we know, and this is the next day, 250 00:16:37,182 --> 00:16:39,782 Speaker 2: we know Joe hasn't left his work. He's been there 251 00:16:39,822 --> 00:16:43,382 Speaker 2: from say, seven o'clock in the morning, and he hasn't 252 00:16:43,422 --> 00:16:49,862 Speaker 2: left until five point thirty so, and Tanya said that 253 00:16:50,022 --> 00:16:53,022 Speaker 2: she'd met Joe for lunch in the car park, such 254 00:16:53,022 --> 00:16:56,182 Speaker 2: an romantic that he'd met her in the car park 255 00:16:56,222 --> 00:16:58,782 Speaker 2: and they'd had lunch together. Joe doesn't tell us that 256 00:16:59,662 --> 00:17:04,542 Speaker 2: there's something like, we needed to clarify this, and you 257 00:17:04,902 --> 00:17:08,342 Speaker 2: start to wonder, why is Joe telling us all this bullshit? 258 00:17:08,662 --> 00:17:12,102 Speaker 2: Really and we needed to find out But no, I 259 00:17:12,102 --> 00:17:16,862 Speaker 2: wouldn't say suspect, but certainly there's something we have to 260 00:17:16,862 --> 00:17:17,782 Speaker 2: delve into. Here. 261 00:17:23,022 --> 00:17:26,782 Speaker 1: You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me Jemma Bath. 262 00:17:27,222 --> 00:17:31,062 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with former Victorian detective Norelle Fraser about the 263 00:17:31,062 --> 00:17:34,062 Speaker 1: case of Maria Corp, the woman whose body was found 264 00:17:34,062 --> 00:17:37,542 Speaker 1: in a car boot in two thousand and five. Up next, 265 00:17:37,742 --> 00:17:41,542 Speaker 1: Norell recounts what happened on the day Maria was found. 266 00:17:44,702 --> 00:17:47,462 Speaker 1: Within four days, that's when everything kind of changed with 267 00:17:47,502 --> 00:17:52,382 Speaker 1: the investigation. Tell me about what happened on February thirteenth. 268 00:17:52,382 --> 00:17:53,062 Speaker 1: From your point of. 269 00:17:53,102 --> 00:17:58,422 Speaker 2: View, we had put out a media release it was 270 00:17:58,462 --> 00:18:01,262 Speaker 2: only a day or two later a media release about 271 00:18:01,262 --> 00:18:05,502 Speaker 2: the car. Anybody that sees this car may be part 272 00:18:05,542 --> 00:18:09,462 Speaker 2: of an investigation. Can you ring crime stop as if 273 00:18:09,502 --> 00:18:12,982 Speaker 2: you find it. And on the thirdeenth of February, it 274 00:18:13,142 --> 00:18:16,422 Speaker 2: was a Sunday, I was working in the office in 275 00:18:16,502 --> 00:18:20,702 Speaker 2: the Missing Person's Unit office with another colleague. I can't 276 00:18:20,742 --> 00:18:23,462 Speaker 2: remember who the colleague was. It was a man and 277 00:18:24,102 --> 00:18:27,062 Speaker 2: it was nine o'clock of the morning or something and 278 00:18:27,102 --> 00:18:29,782 Speaker 2: we get a call from d twenty four to say 279 00:18:29,822 --> 00:18:33,862 Speaker 2: they found the car. The car was in Dallas Brooks Drive. 280 00:18:34,982 --> 00:18:38,182 Speaker 2: It was Maria's car, the car we put out a 281 00:18:38,302 --> 00:18:42,382 Speaker 2: keep a lookout for and it had been found by 282 00:18:43,382 --> 00:18:48,062 Speaker 2: a shrine guard. So we rang the shrine guard and 283 00:18:48,142 --> 00:18:51,302 Speaker 2: said what have you got. He tells us this is 284 00:18:51,342 --> 00:18:54,822 Speaker 2: the car. We said, please don't let anyone near it. 285 00:18:54,982 --> 00:18:57,342 Speaker 2: Just wait where you are, don't touch anything, and we'll 286 00:18:57,382 --> 00:18:59,422 Speaker 2: be there. And we were there in five minutes. Because 287 00:18:59,502 --> 00:19:01,982 Speaker 2: we almost could have seen her car from our eighth 288 00:19:02,062 --> 00:19:05,622 Speaker 2: floor office. It was amazing. So we raced down there 289 00:19:06,262 --> 00:19:07,582 Speaker 2: and there's the car. 290 00:19:08,502 --> 00:19:11,502 Speaker 1: Because for people that don't know Melbourne really central spot, 291 00:19:11,622 --> 00:19:13,862 Speaker 1: the Shrine of Remembrance is kind of in the center 292 00:19:13,942 --> 00:19:15,142 Speaker 1: smack bang of the city. 293 00:19:15,422 --> 00:19:20,702 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and it's a busy thoroughfare, so where the 294 00:19:20,782 --> 00:19:25,342 Speaker 2: car was parked legally, but from about I would say 295 00:19:25,462 --> 00:19:30,982 Speaker 2: eighty meters away, there was a smell emanating from the car. 296 00:19:31,662 --> 00:19:35,942 Speaker 2: And that smell from a police person or detective's point 297 00:19:35,982 --> 00:19:39,022 Speaker 2: of view in this sense, but it was the smell 298 00:19:39,182 --> 00:19:44,622 Speaker 2: of death. We believed from the smell that there was 299 00:19:44,702 --> 00:19:48,622 Speaker 2: something in that car, and we believed it was a person, 300 00:19:48,662 --> 00:19:49,542 Speaker 2: you know, a human. 301 00:19:50,182 --> 00:19:53,702 Speaker 1: Eighty meters is a long way away. Nobody know that. 302 00:19:54,382 --> 00:19:59,462 Speaker 2: Oh, it was pugnant. It was really strong, and so 303 00:19:59,822 --> 00:20:02,462 Speaker 2: we put up some crime scene tape and by this 304 00:20:02,542 --> 00:20:05,702 Speaker 2: stage we've rung our bosses and everyone's coming from everywhere. 305 00:20:06,342 --> 00:20:09,782 Speaker 2: But initially we didn't touch it. I looked in the 306 00:20:09,902 --> 00:20:12,742 Speaker 2: front of the car and I think I saw a 307 00:20:12,782 --> 00:20:17,742 Speaker 2: sandwich on the front seat, and it just looked like 308 00:20:17,862 --> 00:20:21,502 Speaker 2: it had been and a car was locked, no keys, 309 00:20:21,662 --> 00:20:26,942 Speaker 2: you know, it was locked, but there was condensation on 310 00:20:26,982 --> 00:20:31,542 Speaker 2: the inside windows and that we couldn't see anyone, so 311 00:20:32,582 --> 00:20:35,302 Speaker 2: you know, you just assume that there's something or someone 312 00:20:35,342 --> 00:20:39,102 Speaker 2: in the boot. Oh the smell, I'll never forget that smell. 313 00:20:39,342 --> 00:20:45,662 Speaker 2: It was almost frightened, like concerning thinking, oh my god, 314 00:20:45,702 --> 00:20:48,102 Speaker 2: there's a dead body. You know, what's it going to 315 00:20:48,102 --> 00:20:53,822 Speaker 2: be like, because by this stage the car it was 316 00:20:54,102 --> 00:20:57,782 Speaker 2: the hot, fevery sun that had clearly been there a 317 00:20:57,902 --> 00:20:59,902 Speaker 2: couple of days at least. 318 00:21:00,702 --> 00:21:04,582 Speaker 1: Oh my god, So you were assuming that you were 319 00:21:04,622 --> 00:21:07,462 Speaker 1: going to see a dead body. You going off that smell, 320 00:21:07,502 --> 00:21:09,902 Speaker 1: you wouldn't think that anyone could survive that now. 321 00:21:10,782 --> 00:21:14,942 Speaker 2: Nah, And in fact, when we opened up the boot, 322 00:21:15,382 --> 00:21:19,542 Speaker 2: we probably opened up the boot within ten or fifteen minutes. 323 00:21:20,862 --> 00:21:23,302 Speaker 2: We just had to be careful obviously to try and 324 00:21:23,542 --> 00:21:28,022 Speaker 2: not contaminate the crime scene. But still the first and foremost, 325 00:21:28,622 --> 00:21:31,022 Speaker 2: you know, we have to preserve life. So we have 326 00:21:31,102 --> 00:21:33,382 Speaker 2: to make if somebody's in there and alive, we've got 327 00:21:33,382 --> 00:21:36,142 Speaker 2: to get in there. We open up the boot and 328 00:21:36,182 --> 00:21:40,902 Speaker 2: I Jemma that the smell that by this stage is 329 00:21:40,982 --> 00:21:45,542 Speaker 2: probably about let's say, eight detectives at the rear of 330 00:21:45,582 --> 00:21:48,262 Speaker 2: the boot, and as they opened it up, it was 331 00:21:48,422 --> 00:21:54,222 Speaker 2: like this wave of this the foul smell. But there's 332 00:21:54,582 --> 00:22:00,502 Speaker 2: this little woman like she was like a little tiny 333 00:22:00,582 --> 00:22:04,102 Speaker 2: little woman and she must have been you know, like 334 00:22:04,982 --> 00:22:10,262 Speaker 2: I don't know, not even five foot tiny, and she's 335 00:22:11,062 --> 00:22:14,302 Speaker 2: in the sort of fetal position. She's right up against 336 00:22:14,662 --> 00:22:16,822 Speaker 2: the back seats, if that makes sense. 337 00:22:17,902 --> 00:22:19,902 Speaker 1: So she was curled up kind of in the corner. 338 00:22:20,542 --> 00:22:27,022 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was like I can remember thinking, oh God, 339 00:22:27,422 --> 00:22:34,262 Speaker 2: that's that's that must be Maria. And I can remember 340 00:22:34,302 --> 00:22:38,822 Speaker 2: somebody saying, we've got to get in make sure she's 341 00:22:39,102 --> 00:22:41,662 Speaker 2: you know, check her signs of life. And I think 342 00:22:41,702 --> 00:22:45,782 Speaker 2: it was massageant Rocky Shane Brundell that said, oh, somebody's 343 00:22:45,822 --> 00:22:49,422 Speaker 2: leftter going to get in there. By this stage, I 344 00:22:49,582 --> 00:22:57,262 Speaker 2: recall probably about two detectives. One was throwing up in 345 00:22:57,302 --> 00:22:59,742 Speaker 2: the gutter and another one had fainted. 346 00:23:00,582 --> 00:23:04,382 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, it was that bad. But you got 347 00:23:04,382 --> 00:23:05,382 Speaker 1: in that boot, Norell. 348 00:23:06,222 --> 00:23:10,262 Speaker 2: No, I know that. But and this isn't about like 349 00:23:10,862 --> 00:23:21,542 Speaker 2: it's about a normal human reaction to see this woman helpless, hopeless, 350 00:23:21,822 --> 00:23:26,222 Speaker 2: like just like a frightened little animal sort of. That's 351 00:23:27,542 --> 00:23:31,182 Speaker 2: and I just really all I wanted to do was 352 00:23:31,222 --> 00:23:35,982 Speaker 2: get in there and like comfort her. Thinking she was dead. 353 00:23:36,022 --> 00:23:38,622 Speaker 2: I know, but she's somebody's mum, she's you know, like 354 00:23:38,702 --> 00:23:41,422 Speaker 2: she's a human being. I mean, I didn't even think 355 00:23:41,422 --> 00:23:45,822 Speaker 2: about it. I just got in the boot and I 356 00:23:45,942 --> 00:23:49,822 Speaker 2: sort of maneuvered myself the smell. I didn't even smell. 357 00:23:49,942 --> 00:23:52,822 Speaker 2: Isn't it funny, Gemma, I didn't smell the smell. 358 00:23:53,182 --> 00:23:54,222 Speaker 1: You're in police mode. 359 00:23:55,542 --> 00:23:59,542 Speaker 2: Well, I just wanted to get in there, and I 360 00:23:59,542 --> 00:24:03,302 Speaker 2: don't know, do something, you know, So I sort of 361 00:24:03,342 --> 00:24:07,942 Speaker 2: maneuvered myself, like I almost spooned her, because what I 362 00:24:07,982 --> 00:24:11,302 Speaker 2: was trying to do was confirm that she was deceased, 363 00:24:11,342 --> 00:24:15,262 Speaker 2: because she certainly looked deceased. And just going back to 364 00:24:15,302 --> 00:24:19,822 Speaker 2: what she looked like, so she was very disheveled. So 365 00:24:20,702 --> 00:24:23,862 Speaker 2: I remember her top being sort of up around her 366 00:24:23,902 --> 00:24:31,702 Speaker 2: bra area, and her pants were sort of just ski wiffed, 367 00:24:31,782 --> 00:24:34,782 Speaker 2: you know, like and not for I didn't think for 368 00:24:34,822 --> 00:24:38,822 Speaker 2: one minute that she had been sexually assaulted or anything. 369 00:24:38,862 --> 00:24:42,262 Speaker 2: It was just it was a look like she was 370 00:24:42,342 --> 00:24:46,142 Speaker 2: just disheveled, like she'd just been thrown in there. That's 371 00:24:46,182 --> 00:24:49,102 Speaker 2: how it looked to me. And pushed back sort of, 372 00:24:49,622 --> 00:24:52,382 Speaker 2: and so I checked her signs of life, and I 373 00:24:52,462 --> 00:24:56,742 Speaker 2: tried to check her wrists and around her neck, and 374 00:24:56,742 --> 00:24:59,662 Speaker 2: that's when I saw these ligature marks. It looks like 375 00:24:59,822 --> 00:25:05,782 Speaker 2: she'd been strangled around her neck, but also she was decomposing. 376 00:25:06,382 --> 00:25:08,502 Speaker 2: I couldn't find any signs of life in fact, I 377 00:25:08,502 --> 00:25:12,542 Speaker 2: thought she was dead, but she was decomposing. And by 378 00:25:12,542 --> 00:25:16,662 Speaker 2: that I mean that it was pretty horrific. She had 379 00:25:18,102 --> 00:25:26,742 Speaker 2: maggots in her ears, maggots in her nose. I've got 380 00:25:26,742 --> 00:25:31,222 Speaker 2: a feeling she had basically she was being eaten. And 381 00:25:34,742 --> 00:25:38,182 Speaker 2: you know, I couldn't find any signs of life. And then, 382 00:25:38,262 --> 00:25:41,782 Speaker 2: for just on a bit of a whim, I just 383 00:25:41,822 --> 00:25:45,582 Speaker 2: wanted to check one hundred and ten percent. So somehow 384 00:25:45,622 --> 00:25:48,942 Speaker 2: I maneuvered myself so that I could see her chest. 385 00:25:49,622 --> 00:25:54,822 Speaker 2: I put my head near her chest, chest moved. I 386 00:25:54,982 --> 00:26:00,982 Speaker 2: could not believe it, and I remember just yelling, oh 387 00:26:01,102 --> 00:26:06,862 Speaker 2: my god, she's alive. She's alive. So everyone rallies round 388 00:26:06,902 --> 00:26:11,062 Speaker 2: into action, and Rocky, I remember, Rocky just stay with Ernarelle. 389 00:26:11,102 --> 00:26:15,142 Speaker 2: Stayed there. I mean, he wasn't ordering me. I'm just saying. 390 00:26:15,182 --> 00:26:20,582 Speaker 2: It was like it was just amazing that she was 391 00:26:20,982 --> 00:26:25,782 Speaker 2: still alive, and so an ambulance was there within minutes. 392 00:26:25,822 --> 00:26:29,942 Speaker 2: I reckon, But I remember, while we were waiting, all 393 00:26:29,982 --> 00:26:33,982 Speaker 2: this commotion is happening outside. But I laid with her, 394 00:26:34,502 --> 00:26:40,022 Speaker 2: and I remember stroking her hand and holding her hand, 395 00:26:40,782 --> 00:26:43,942 Speaker 2: and I remember I just spoke to her and I said, 396 00:26:44,262 --> 00:26:46,422 Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if you can hear me, Maria, 397 00:26:46,502 --> 00:26:51,862 Speaker 2: but you're safe now. Nobody will ever hurt you. I 398 00:26:51,902 --> 00:26:52,782 Speaker 2: won't let you go. 399 00:26:53,382 --> 00:26:56,062 Speaker 1: To think what she went through in that boot, if 400 00:26:56,062 --> 00:26:58,502 Speaker 1: she was conscious for any of it is just harrowing. 401 00:26:58,582 --> 00:27:00,022 Speaker 1: So to know that you were the first one in 402 00:27:00,062 --> 00:27:03,742 Speaker 1: there is comforting in some respects. 403 00:27:04,062 --> 00:27:06,462 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and that's what I wanted to do. I 404 00:27:06,502 --> 00:27:11,902 Speaker 2: just wanted to comfort her and assure her that you know, 405 00:27:12,102 --> 00:27:15,462 Speaker 2: nobody would hurt her anymore, that you know I would 406 00:27:15,542 --> 00:27:18,142 Speaker 2: protect her. That's all I wanted her to hear. 407 00:27:19,142 --> 00:27:22,062 Speaker 1: So obviously she's raced to hospital from the boot. Did 408 00:27:22,102 --> 00:27:22,782 Speaker 1: you go with her? 409 00:27:23,302 --> 00:27:27,702 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, yeah. Rocky said not to leave her side, 410 00:27:27,742 --> 00:27:30,702 Speaker 2: and I wouldn't anyway, but ROCKI said, don't leave her side, 411 00:27:31,102 --> 00:27:36,022 Speaker 2: and he said just I think he gave me a 412 00:27:36,062 --> 00:27:39,142 Speaker 2: pen and a bit of paper or something, but he said, 413 00:27:40,142 --> 00:27:43,022 Speaker 2: whatever she says, if she says anything, make sure you 414 00:27:43,062 --> 00:27:46,982 Speaker 2: write it down. And so when the ambulance came, I 415 00:27:47,022 --> 00:27:49,742 Speaker 2: didn't hold I kept holding her hand like, I didn't 416 00:27:49,822 --> 00:27:52,502 Speaker 2: let her hand go. When they put her on the trolley, 417 00:27:53,062 --> 00:27:54,822 Speaker 2: I still kept holding her hand and I said, I'm 418 00:27:54,862 --> 00:27:57,662 Speaker 2: still here, Maria. And then we got in the back 419 00:27:57,702 --> 00:28:01,822 Speaker 2: of the ambulance, and I remember and the ambulance were great. 420 00:28:01,942 --> 00:28:05,422 Speaker 2: They let me hold her hand, and I remember a 421 00:28:05,462 --> 00:28:08,422 Speaker 2: couple of times we stopped in between Dallas Book Strike 422 00:28:08,502 --> 00:28:11,462 Speaker 2: where the car was and the Alfa. It is only 423 00:28:11,462 --> 00:28:15,502 Speaker 2: about two kilometers along since Kilda Road, but I remember 424 00:28:15,622 --> 00:28:20,222 Speaker 2: twice the ambo stopped because they thought that she had 425 00:28:20,302 --> 00:28:25,422 Speaker 2: died and they were putting some sort of a line 426 00:28:26,422 --> 00:28:29,822 Speaker 2: like something in her feet. I couldn't get up. I've 427 00:28:29,862 --> 00:28:33,982 Speaker 2: never seen anything like that, but apparently that was I 428 00:28:34,022 --> 00:28:36,022 Speaker 2: don't know, it's more direct or I don't know what 429 00:28:36,062 --> 00:28:38,262 Speaker 2: it was, but yeah, I can always remember them saying 430 00:28:38,262 --> 00:28:41,222 Speaker 2: I think we've lost her and doing something it was 431 00:28:41,262 --> 00:28:42,942 Speaker 2: to try and obviously to keep her life. But when 432 00:28:42,942 --> 00:28:46,782 Speaker 2: we got to the hospital, everyone there obviously were waiting 433 00:28:46,862 --> 00:28:50,422 Speaker 2: for us. They knew who we were and everything, and 434 00:28:51,022 --> 00:28:54,622 Speaker 2: it was like the hospital just cleared for us to 435 00:28:55,182 --> 00:29:00,902 Speaker 2: get Maria in and into an operating theater. But the thing, 436 00:29:00,942 --> 00:29:03,382 Speaker 2: I was really offended. And I know this man had 437 00:29:03,422 --> 00:29:08,502 Speaker 2: a job, but there was this orderly and he followed 438 00:29:08,582 --> 00:29:14,182 Speaker 2: us down the hallway into the operating theater. He never 439 00:29:14,262 --> 00:29:16,422 Speaker 2: let us out of his sight, and all the way 440 00:29:16,862 --> 00:29:21,062 Speaker 2: he was spraying this air freshener, and I just thought, 441 00:29:21,502 --> 00:29:23,662 Speaker 2: I don't know, can you just give her a bit 442 00:29:23,662 --> 00:29:24,342 Speaker 2: of dignity? 443 00:29:24,702 --> 00:29:28,022 Speaker 1: Why, I assume is that for the patients, so that 444 00:29:28,062 --> 00:29:29,062 Speaker 1: they didn't smell it. 445 00:29:29,782 --> 00:29:34,022 Speaker 2: Oh the smell was. It was horrendous. It was horrendous, 446 00:29:34,822 --> 00:29:36,982 Speaker 2: And I thought, that's what I mean. I understand, and 447 00:29:36,982 --> 00:29:39,422 Speaker 2: he must have been given directions from a boss or something. 448 00:29:39,982 --> 00:29:43,382 Speaker 2: But I I just sort of thought, really anyway, but 449 00:29:43,542 --> 00:29:45,822 Speaker 2: when we get into the operating theater, of course they've 450 00:29:45,822 --> 00:29:49,102 Speaker 2: got everything ready to go, and they had to take 451 00:29:49,142 --> 00:29:52,742 Speaker 2: off her clothes. So I got I had a bag 452 00:29:52,982 --> 00:29:55,302 Speaker 2: of evidence bag. I must have had one in the room, 453 00:29:55,502 --> 00:29:57,862 Speaker 2: but anyway, I just put it a clothes in there, 454 00:29:57,902 --> 00:30:02,182 Speaker 2: and then that's when they said, so I went out 455 00:30:02,182 --> 00:30:05,062 Speaker 2: of the room. And I don't really remember that funny, 456 00:30:05,142 --> 00:30:08,422 Speaker 2: I mean, but I don't remember much more about that 457 00:30:08,542 --> 00:30:15,742 Speaker 2: day other than smelling terribly like my clothes stink. But oh, 458 00:30:16,062 --> 00:30:20,822 Speaker 2: it's something I will never ever forget. And I just 459 00:30:20,902 --> 00:30:23,622 Speaker 2: seeing her like she was, I thought, how could anybody 460 00:30:24,022 --> 00:30:27,422 Speaker 2: do this to a human being, like just to leave 461 00:30:27,582 --> 00:30:32,862 Speaker 2: them unconscious in the boot of a car in the 462 00:30:32,902 --> 00:30:36,502 Speaker 2: hot sun. I just how could somebody do that and 463 00:30:36,542 --> 00:30:40,462 Speaker 2: as we found out later, it was Tenua. Yeah, that 464 00:30:40,582 --> 00:30:41,862 Speaker 2: lovely woman I saw at. 465 00:30:41,742 --> 00:30:45,182 Speaker 1: The point door, which we'll get to how that all unraveled. 466 00:30:45,742 --> 00:30:52,382 Speaker 1: But basically, once doctors properly examined Maria, along with the 467 00:30:52,542 --> 00:30:55,462 Speaker 1: attack injuries, the bruising, the head injuries, you know you 468 00:30:55,502 --> 00:30:57,742 Speaker 1: mentioned the ligatures around the next she also had severe 469 00:30:57,822 --> 00:31:01,102 Speaker 1: oxygen deprivation and dehydration obviously from being left in that 470 00:31:01,142 --> 00:31:05,262 Speaker 1: boot for all those days, and the decision was made 471 00:31:05,342 --> 00:31:08,502 Speaker 1: to place her in a medically induced coma. So she 472 00:31:08,622 --> 00:31:13,262 Speaker 1: never actually regained consciousness or spoke, did she never? 473 00:31:13,742 --> 00:31:18,822 Speaker 2: In fact, she was in hospital for six months, never 474 00:31:18,862 --> 00:31:24,742 Speaker 2: again consciousness. But the legal issues that just putting the 475 00:31:24,942 --> 00:31:30,662 Speaker 2: investigation aside for a moment. The legal issues, I'll just 476 00:31:30,742 --> 00:31:34,342 Speaker 2: run through a few of them for you, because Maria 477 00:31:34,422 --> 00:31:39,422 Speaker 2: couldn't speak, obviously, because Joe by this stage absolutely was 478 00:31:39,462 --> 00:31:45,662 Speaker 2: a suspect, we didn't know much more. So Vocat appointed 479 00:31:46,342 --> 00:31:50,862 Speaker 2: to as her guardian. Let's say that was a man 480 00:31:50,902 --> 00:31:56,142 Speaker 2: by the name of Julian Gardner, also Laura, the daughter. 481 00:31:56,262 --> 00:32:00,822 Speaker 2: She was granted permission to take over Maria's financial affairs 482 00:32:01,262 --> 00:32:04,342 Speaker 2: because they discovered that four thousand dollars have been taken 483 00:32:04,382 --> 00:32:07,142 Speaker 2: from Maria's account. I think the day before she went missing. 484 00:32:07,902 --> 00:32:15,302 Speaker 2: Then Maria's guardian Gardner, he made a decision to cease 485 00:32:15,422 --> 00:32:19,182 Speaker 2: all medical treatment because he had been advised that there 486 00:32:19,302 --> 00:32:24,542 Speaker 2: was no hope of any recovery. So also the fact 487 00:32:24,582 --> 00:32:29,742 Speaker 2: that when Maria she was clearly going to diet from 488 00:32:29,742 --> 00:32:34,222 Speaker 2: all accounts, so then of course somebody would be facing 489 00:32:34,222 --> 00:32:38,662 Speaker 2: a murder charge, right Margaret Tige, who was the president 490 00:32:38,702 --> 00:32:42,222 Speaker 2: of the Right to Life Australia, they were considering legal 491 00:32:42,262 --> 00:32:49,622 Speaker 2: action to overturn Julia Gardner's decision to have Maria's feeding 492 00:32:49,702 --> 00:32:57,502 Speaker 2: tube reinserted. So there's all these legal issues. And after 493 00:32:58,302 --> 00:33:01,142 Speaker 2: the decision by mister Gardner about that they were going 494 00:33:01,182 --> 00:33:03,982 Speaker 2: to remove the feeding tube because that's all that was 495 00:33:04,062 --> 00:33:10,982 Speaker 2: keeping her alive, Joe successfully applied to very his bail 496 00:33:11,102 --> 00:33:15,382 Speaker 2: conditions so that he could go and say goodbye to Maria. Yeah, 497 00:33:15,422 --> 00:33:18,422 Speaker 2: and that was agreed upon. It went, you know, like 498 00:33:18,862 --> 00:33:22,862 Speaker 2: the Right to Life people, it just became very, very complicated. 499 00:33:23,262 --> 00:33:27,902 Speaker 1: What was their argument that it was inhumane because the 500 00:33:27,942 --> 00:33:29,302 Speaker 1: doctors were saving her. 501 00:33:29,782 --> 00:33:33,822 Speaker 2: Basically I believe, I mean, you know, this isn't my forte, 502 00:33:33,822 --> 00:33:39,302 Speaker 2: but I believe that they thought that by taking out 503 00:33:39,462 --> 00:33:43,262 Speaker 2: that feeding tube that she would starve to death, right, 504 00:33:43,382 --> 00:33:47,422 Speaker 2: and they felt that. I think that is their general 505 00:33:47,542 --> 00:33:51,742 Speaker 2: belief is that everyone has a right to stay alive 506 00:33:51,822 --> 00:33:53,862 Speaker 2: as long as, you know, as long as they can, 507 00:33:54,022 --> 00:33:57,382 Speaker 2: but other people have made decisions and they didn't agree 508 00:33:57,382 --> 00:33:57,582 Speaker 2: with it. 509 00:33:58,102 --> 00:34:01,982 Speaker 1: Once Maria's body was found, she's taken to hospital, she's 510 00:34:01,982 --> 00:34:05,782 Speaker 1: placed into a coma. What happens next in terms of 511 00:34:05,822 --> 00:34:08,262 Speaker 1: the investigation, Are you back at Joe's. 512 00:34:08,022 --> 00:34:16,302 Speaker 2: Door absolutely virtually knocking it down. Yeah, Actually, going back 513 00:34:16,702 --> 00:34:18,982 Speaker 2: the day that we found Maria, on that thirteenth of 514 00:34:19,062 --> 00:34:24,022 Speaker 2: feb I remember there was quite a discussion at the 515 00:34:24,022 --> 00:34:29,502 Speaker 2: back of the car about that Joe needed to be told, 516 00:34:30,542 --> 00:34:34,342 Speaker 2: and there was a number of detectives that wanted to 517 00:34:34,382 --> 00:34:38,822 Speaker 2: go and see Joe and tell him because they wanted 518 00:34:38,862 --> 00:34:41,382 Speaker 2: to look at his reaction because I think obviously by 519 00:34:41,382 --> 00:34:47,822 Speaker 2: this stage we believe Joe is involved. We don't know 520 00:34:47,902 --> 00:34:52,502 Speaker 2: how much, but there's so many loose ends. But I 521 00:34:52,542 --> 00:34:54,942 Speaker 2: know there was quite a few hands going up saying 522 00:34:55,662 --> 00:35:00,982 Speaker 2: could I go and break the news to because they 523 00:35:01,102 --> 00:35:05,902 Speaker 2: just wanted to see his face. Obviously they felt that 524 00:35:05,982 --> 00:35:11,742 Speaker 2: he was right in it, but he hadn't actually done 525 00:35:11,982 --> 00:35:15,182 Speaker 2: the act, but we believe he was behind it. 526 00:35:18,062 --> 00:35:22,502 Speaker 1: Next, Norell explains exactly how Joe convinced his mistress Tanya 527 00:35:23,102 --> 00:35:30,622 Speaker 1: to kill his wife. How did you get to the 528 00:35:30,622 --> 00:35:33,582 Speaker 1: bottom of what happened? How did you work out that 529 00:35:33,662 --> 00:35:34,742 Speaker 1: it was Tanya. 530 00:35:35,582 --> 00:35:40,862 Speaker 2: Because Tanya told us right. So, when Maria was found, 531 00:35:42,142 --> 00:35:46,782 Speaker 2: we went around to Tanya's and I think Tanya must 532 00:35:46,782 --> 00:35:50,742 Speaker 2: have by this stage we told her that Joe had 533 00:35:50,782 --> 00:35:53,382 Speaker 2: told us a completely different story and that he had 534 00:35:53,382 --> 00:35:56,302 Speaker 2: pulled the wool over her eyes. And I think we 535 00:35:56,342 --> 00:35:59,702 Speaker 2: told well, I know, we told her he's put you 536 00:35:59,782 --> 00:36:04,262 Speaker 2: under the bus, and that's when she thought, pardon me, 537 00:36:04,302 --> 00:36:09,262 Speaker 2: will fuck you? So that's when she said, I'll tell 538 00:36:09,262 --> 00:36:16,382 Speaker 2: you everything. And without Tenure's cooperation it would have been difficult. 539 00:36:16,422 --> 00:36:19,542 Speaker 2: But I remember when we told her she was under arrest, 540 00:36:20,862 --> 00:36:25,182 Speaker 2: and she said, can I just go and tell my parents, 541 00:36:25,782 --> 00:36:28,502 Speaker 2: remembering that she's got a little nine year old girl, 542 00:36:29,102 --> 00:36:31,902 Speaker 2: eight or nine year old girl and she had to 543 00:36:31,942 --> 00:36:34,302 Speaker 2: take her little girl around to her parents' place so 544 00:36:34,382 --> 00:36:35,942 Speaker 2: that they could look after it because we had to 545 00:36:35,982 --> 00:36:41,942 Speaker 2: go an interviewer. And I can remember she said, I 546 00:36:41,982 --> 00:36:45,782 Speaker 2: just want to tell my parents and would you allow 547 00:36:45,902 --> 00:36:50,022 Speaker 2: me to tell them without going in with me in handcuffs, 548 00:36:50,582 --> 00:36:54,542 Speaker 2: and the decision was made pretty risky, I think, looking back, 549 00:36:55,222 --> 00:36:58,902 Speaker 2: but we believed that Tanya she had become you know, 550 00:36:59,022 --> 00:37:02,942 Speaker 2: she was helping us, and there's a two way street, 551 00:37:03,662 --> 00:37:07,542 Speaker 2: and so we agreed that we'd take off the handcuffs 552 00:37:07,542 --> 00:37:13,942 Speaker 2: while she walked into her parents place told them, and 553 00:37:14,102 --> 00:37:17,382 Speaker 2: I remember we just sort of stood outside the land 554 00:37:17,462 --> 00:37:22,222 Speaker 2: room door and she told her parents. I remember seeing 555 00:37:22,222 --> 00:37:26,262 Speaker 2: her with a little girl on her lap, telling her 556 00:37:26,302 --> 00:37:28,222 Speaker 2: parents like, you just can't imagine, can you. 557 00:37:28,462 --> 00:37:29,822 Speaker 1: I mean, I know she's the one that did the 558 00:37:29,862 --> 00:37:34,262 Speaker 1: wrong thing, but just thinking about that conversation, those parents 559 00:37:34,302 --> 00:37:37,982 Speaker 1: that had to listen to that, it's a lot. What 560 00:37:38,062 --> 00:37:42,382 Speaker 1: did she tell you? What did Tanya say happened to Maria? 561 00:37:43,222 --> 00:37:48,942 Speaker 2: She told us that Joe was everything that she'd wished for. 562 00:37:49,142 --> 00:37:52,022 Speaker 2: In fact, she referred, she said a number of times, 563 00:37:52,862 --> 00:37:57,182 Speaker 2: he is my world, and that she was passionately in 564 00:37:57,222 --> 00:38:02,342 Speaker 2: love with him, that he showered her with gifts, with support, 565 00:38:02,502 --> 00:38:06,782 Speaker 2: with money, with a house, that he was promising that 566 00:38:06,862 --> 00:38:11,302 Speaker 2: they would live together forever. And he started to talk 567 00:38:11,342 --> 00:38:14,222 Speaker 2: about how am I going to get rid of Maria? 568 00:38:14,342 --> 00:38:20,262 Speaker 2: And initially she thought he was joking. They then started talking. 569 00:38:20,382 --> 00:38:23,462 Speaker 2: I remember one time Tanya said that they went around 570 00:38:23,502 --> 00:38:25,582 Speaker 2: to her brothers and they started talking about, you know, 571 00:38:25,582 --> 00:38:27,502 Speaker 2: if you were going to kill somebody, what would be 572 00:38:27,542 --> 00:38:30,222 Speaker 2: the best way to kill somebody? And her brother Tan, 573 00:38:30,302 --> 00:38:32,982 Speaker 2: his brother goes, oh, with a belt, but you just 574 00:38:32,982 --> 00:38:36,942 Speaker 2: strangle them. This was a very off the cuff conversation, 575 00:38:37,142 --> 00:38:41,822 Speaker 2: right and anyway, then Joe started to talk to Tan, 576 00:38:41,902 --> 00:38:43,582 Speaker 2: you're about you know, the only way we can be 577 00:38:43,662 --> 00:38:46,662 Speaker 2: together is if we do kill Maria. 578 00:38:46,782 --> 00:38:50,542 Speaker 1: What do you mean, like, why just leave her? 579 00:38:51,862 --> 00:38:56,742 Speaker 2: Why wouldn't you have the courage? Yes, it's a difficult conversation, 580 00:38:56,862 --> 00:39:00,462 Speaker 2: but why wouldn't Joe do what any other man or 581 00:39:00,502 --> 00:39:02,502 Speaker 2: any other person that's had an affair, and there's a 582 00:39:02,502 --> 00:39:05,182 Speaker 2: lot in this world, Why wouldn't you just say, look, 583 00:39:05,422 --> 00:39:07,382 Speaker 2: i've fallen in love or I want to be with 584 00:39:07,462 --> 00:39:09,982 Speaker 2: somebody else, I don't love you anymore, you know, But no, 585 00:39:10,542 --> 00:39:16,982 Speaker 2: not Joe. So Joe had manipulated Tanya. In my belief, 586 00:39:17,582 --> 00:39:22,182 Speaker 2: he was controlling, he was coercive, he was promising her 587 00:39:22,262 --> 00:39:27,142 Speaker 2: the world, and look, you know, Tanya believed him. And 588 00:39:27,222 --> 00:39:32,822 Speaker 2: so they start discussing. Joe says, well, look, I'll get 589 00:39:32,822 --> 00:39:36,462 Speaker 2: together a kid, you know, I'll get you a bella clava. 590 00:39:37,502 --> 00:39:42,422 Speaker 2: I'll get you. So he got the murder kit together, 591 00:39:43,382 --> 00:39:46,822 Speaker 2: and he decided that what he'd do was, he said, 592 00:39:46,862 --> 00:39:49,422 Speaker 2: you'd be ready at you know, six thirty in the morning. 593 00:39:49,942 --> 00:39:53,382 Speaker 2: I'll come and get you. I'll put you in the 594 00:39:53,382 --> 00:39:56,702 Speaker 2: back of Maria's car. I'll just go upstairs and get 595 00:39:56,782 --> 00:39:58,902 Speaker 2: ready for work or whatever. So I think at like 596 00:39:59,102 --> 00:40:01,662 Speaker 2: five o'clock or something, he went and got Tanya. He'd 597 00:40:01,702 --> 00:40:04,862 Speaker 2: got a pair of shoes, you know, like to commit 598 00:40:04,902 --> 00:40:09,782 Speaker 2: the murdering. And he said something like, I don't want 599 00:40:09,782 --> 00:40:12,902 Speaker 2: that bitch and out of the garage alive. That's what 600 00:40:12,942 --> 00:40:15,862 Speaker 2: he said to Tanya. Don't have her come out alive. 601 00:40:16,182 --> 00:40:17,542 Speaker 2: But Tanya agreed. 602 00:40:18,222 --> 00:40:21,102 Speaker 1: I know, so all of it is quite hard to believe, 603 00:40:21,342 --> 00:40:23,782 Speaker 1: you know, that one he came up with this too. 604 00:40:23,822 --> 00:40:28,542 Speaker 1: She agreed to it. Like it's just mind blowing. 605 00:40:29,182 --> 00:40:33,542 Speaker 2: It is. It is unbelievable. But also that's what she 606 00:40:33,702 --> 00:40:37,222 Speaker 2: was prepared to do for love. I think, my god, 607 00:40:37,262 --> 00:40:44,102 Speaker 2: how skewed is that? Oh? Anyway, so he comes and 608 00:40:44,142 --> 00:40:47,142 Speaker 2: gets her at five o'clock or whatever. She puts on 609 00:40:47,182 --> 00:40:49,622 Speaker 2: the balaclava. He puts her in the back of the car, 610 00:40:50,102 --> 00:40:52,822 Speaker 2: and he says, Marie will be dan about six thirty 611 00:40:53,622 --> 00:40:56,142 Speaker 2: and she'll go off to work. So she had the 612 00:40:56,182 --> 00:40:59,302 Speaker 2: belt the belt, which is what the brother had suggested. 613 00:40:59,822 --> 00:41:02,062 Speaker 2: She had the belt in the back of the car. 614 00:41:02,702 --> 00:41:05,622 Speaker 2: She was already. Maria comes down, gets into the driver's 615 00:41:05,622 --> 00:41:09,742 Speaker 2: seat and she's behind her Garotza with the belt strangles up. 616 00:41:09,742 --> 00:41:12,862 Speaker 2: But apparently little Maria put up a hell of a fight, 617 00:41:13,342 --> 00:41:18,622 Speaker 2: but eventually she went limp. So Tanya then drags her 618 00:41:19,022 --> 00:41:21,942 Speaker 2: around and puts her in the boot. And Tanya can 619 00:41:22,022 --> 00:41:26,102 Speaker 2: recall driving. She just wasn't sure where to drive, so 620 00:41:26,142 --> 00:41:28,742 Speaker 2: she just drove to Dallas Brooks Drive and just left 621 00:41:28,742 --> 00:41:33,542 Speaker 2: her there. But she remembers hearing Maria like gasping in 622 00:41:33,582 --> 00:41:37,702 Speaker 2: the back. Anyway, she just left her ran she was 623 00:41:37,742 --> 00:41:43,342 Speaker 2: an athlete, So she then has the car keys. She 624 00:41:43,582 --> 00:41:46,902 Speaker 2: runs to her brother's work and tells her brother, I've 625 00:41:46,942 --> 00:41:51,902 Speaker 2: just strangled Maria. Anyway, so she then goes back home 626 00:41:52,062 --> 00:41:55,582 Speaker 2: because she'd given her little girl a pana dole to 627 00:41:55,622 --> 00:41:58,822 Speaker 2: make sure she slept, and she gets home and wakes 628 00:41:58,902 --> 00:42:02,502 Speaker 2: up her little girl, takes her to school, makes some lunch, 629 00:42:02,542 --> 00:42:04,862 Speaker 2: and goes and meets Joe in the car park at 630 00:42:04,982 --> 00:42:08,302 Speaker 2: Joe's work, and that's when Joe says, you've got to 631 00:42:08,302 --> 00:42:11,462 Speaker 2: go and burn all the clothing, boom and everything. So 632 00:42:11,502 --> 00:42:14,182 Speaker 2: she does. She goes on and up the hills somewhere 633 00:42:14,222 --> 00:42:17,462 Speaker 2: and birds it all and comes back and everything's what 634 00:42:17,542 --> 00:42:18,742 Speaker 2: could possibly go wrong? 635 00:42:20,222 --> 00:42:22,502 Speaker 1: To think they thought they'd get away with that as well? 636 00:42:23,662 --> 00:42:24,382 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. 637 00:42:25,462 --> 00:42:29,302 Speaker 1: So she pled guilty, she became a prosecution witness. She 638 00:42:29,382 --> 00:42:32,782 Speaker 1: ended up getting twelve years nine years non parole. So 639 00:42:32,822 --> 00:42:36,862 Speaker 1: she's already out. Yes, what about Joe. He did not 640 00:42:36,862 --> 00:42:38,022 Speaker 1: plead guilty, did he? 641 00:42:38,902 --> 00:42:42,662 Speaker 2: Oh? No, Joe was going to fight it all the 642 00:42:42,742 --> 00:42:46,902 Speaker 2: way because of course it was tenure. You know, she 643 00:42:47,062 --> 00:42:53,262 Speaker 2: was doing it, not him. It got very complicated, but 644 00:42:53,422 --> 00:42:59,222 Speaker 2: in the end Joe got to see Maria when they 645 00:42:59,262 --> 00:43:02,342 Speaker 2: pulled the tubes out and Joe got Joe was on 646 00:43:02,422 --> 00:43:05,822 Speaker 2: bail by this stage for I think it was attempted murder, 647 00:43:06,182 --> 00:43:10,382 Speaker 2: as was tenure, and he wanted to go and see her, 648 00:43:10,542 --> 00:43:13,862 Speaker 2: so he did. But then she died about a week 649 00:43:13,982 --> 00:43:18,542 Speaker 2: after the tubes had been removed, and she died and 650 00:43:19,182 --> 00:43:22,742 Speaker 2: her funeral was I think it was about August. On 651 00:43:22,782 --> 00:43:27,142 Speaker 2: the day of her funeral, Joe ended his life as well. 652 00:43:27,462 --> 00:43:32,022 Speaker 1: In quite dramatic fashion as well. He kind of told people, oh. 653 00:43:31,902 --> 00:43:35,422 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he rang a journalist to say this is 654 00:43:35,462 --> 00:43:38,142 Speaker 2: what I'm going to do. I think he left a note, 655 00:43:38,342 --> 00:43:42,982 Speaker 2: but he ended his life at his home. But I 656 00:43:43,102 --> 00:43:46,422 Speaker 2: just sort of think he wouldn't even let Maria die 657 00:43:46,462 --> 00:43:51,902 Speaker 2: in peace, you know, like he and you know the 658 00:43:51,982 --> 00:43:55,062 Speaker 2: sad thing, well, there's so many sad parts of this. 659 00:43:55,262 --> 00:44:04,102 Speaker 2: But so Laura's lost her mum and her stepfather. But Damien, 660 00:44:04,982 --> 00:44:10,342 Speaker 2: the little boy, he's lost his parents, both of them, 661 00:44:10,622 --> 00:44:15,822 Speaker 2: plus Tanya's daughter. Tanya went inside for I think she 662 00:44:16,102 --> 00:44:19,742 Speaker 2: did nine years, so she lost her mum as well. 663 00:44:19,782 --> 00:44:22,582 Speaker 1: In a way, all these children that are affected. 664 00:44:22,942 --> 00:44:26,742 Speaker 2: Oh and all all that Joe needed to do was 665 00:44:26,822 --> 00:44:30,422 Speaker 2: pardon me, have the balls to say I don't love 666 00:44:30,462 --> 00:44:30,982 Speaker 2: you anymore. 667 00:44:31,422 --> 00:44:36,222 Speaker 1: You know, we live in a country where divorce is legal. Yeah, 668 00:44:36,302 --> 00:44:37,462 Speaker 1: you're allowed to leave. 669 00:44:38,582 --> 00:44:39,222 Speaker 2: You're right. 670 00:44:40,662 --> 00:44:44,342 Speaker 1: This has been one of those cases that has captivated 671 00:44:44,382 --> 00:44:46,902 Speaker 1: public attention. You know, it's been turned into a book, 672 00:44:47,342 --> 00:44:51,062 Speaker 1: a TV movie, an opera. I found out through my research. 673 00:44:51,102 --> 00:44:53,262 Speaker 2: I mean, that's offensive, isn't it. It is an opera. 674 00:44:54,542 --> 00:44:57,222 Speaker 1: It is a case that you know, I think because 675 00:44:57,262 --> 00:44:59,382 Speaker 1: it's got so many elements. It's, you know, the affair, 676 00:44:59,462 --> 00:45:02,782 Speaker 1: the fact that she was alive, It's fodder for a 677 00:45:02,822 --> 00:45:06,382 Speaker 1: lot of that kind of consumption. What do you make 678 00:45:06,422 --> 00:45:11,382 Speaker 1: of the cultural, kind of pop culture adaptations of the story. 679 00:45:12,222 --> 00:45:15,982 Speaker 2: It's a bit hard to criticize people because I talk 680 00:45:16,062 --> 00:45:21,102 Speaker 2: about it as a in a presentation. So I feel 681 00:45:21,142 --> 00:45:25,342 Speaker 2: a bit conflicted in a way. I find the opera, 682 00:45:27,102 --> 00:45:32,142 Speaker 2: I find that offensive, but I feel like, because I 683 00:45:32,422 --> 00:45:36,422 Speaker 2: was there, it's a little bit different, and I feel 684 00:45:36,422 --> 00:45:40,982 Speaker 2: like I'm very understanding that there are people out there 685 00:45:41,022 --> 00:45:45,062 Speaker 2: that it is going to trigger and effect, and I 686 00:45:45,102 --> 00:45:48,622 Speaker 2: feel like I do it pretty gently. But also I 687 00:45:48,702 --> 00:45:51,022 Speaker 2: think you'd call it like lived experience. I was there. 688 00:45:51,942 --> 00:45:56,102 Speaker 1: It's very very different to creating art out of, you know, 689 00:45:56,142 --> 00:45:56,982 Speaker 1: a murder story. 690 00:45:57,782 --> 00:46:02,982 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So I do feel a bit conflicted, But 691 00:46:03,982 --> 00:46:07,942 Speaker 2: also I think there's a lot of lessons, let's say, 692 00:46:08,662 --> 00:46:12,662 Speaker 2: to be learned, particular hill with what I say about 693 00:46:12,702 --> 00:46:16,502 Speaker 2: And I haven't mentioned this, but Maria had an intervention 694 00:46:16,702 --> 00:46:20,182 Speaker 2: order out on Joe at one point because she was 695 00:46:20,222 --> 00:46:22,982 Speaker 2: worried that he was going to do something. He'd become 696 00:46:23,182 --> 00:46:27,662 Speaker 2: very I don't know about violent, but she was very 697 00:46:27,862 --> 00:46:31,542 Speaker 2: unsettled around Joe and she went and got an intervention order. 698 00:46:32,182 --> 00:46:35,462 Speaker 2: And would you believe that the day before she went missing, 699 00:46:36,102 --> 00:46:40,182 Speaker 2: she took the intervention order off with Joe. Joe was insisting, 700 00:46:40,262 --> 00:46:44,022 Speaker 2: come on, we don't need this intervention order. I'll be good, 701 00:46:44,502 --> 00:46:50,422 Speaker 2: I won't hurt you know, all that sort of stuff again, manipulative, controlling, coercive. 702 00:46:50,542 --> 00:46:55,542 Speaker 2: So they went together to the court and removed the 703 00:46:55,582 --> 00:46:56,502 Speaker 2: intervention order. 704 00:46:57,062 --> 00:46:59,622 Speaker 1: That's so interesting because it shows that she had a 705 00:46:59,742 --> 00:47:02,342 Speaker 1: level of fear. Prime. 706 00:47:03,182 --> 00:47:07,262 Speaker 2: Yeah, And my point to that is how important it 707 00:47:07,302 --> 00:47:10,982 Speaker 2: is when you are concerned about somebody to go to 708 00:47:11,022 --> 00:47:14,462 Speaker 2: the police and if the police take out the intervention order. 709 00:47:16,742 --> 00:47:19,182 Speaker 2: In this instance, if the police would have taken out 710 00:47:19,182 --> 00:47:23,422 Speaker 2: the intervention order, they wouldn't have allowed it to lapse. 711 00:47:23,782 --> 00:47:26,862 Speaker 2: Joe and Maria would have had to convince the police 712 00:47:27,582 --> 00:47:30,782 Speaker 2: we need it removed because of blah blah blah. 713 00:47:30,822 --> 00:47:32,982 Speaker 1: But I would argue that there are so many cases 714 00:47:33,022 --> 00:47:37,262 Speaker 1: of murder when there are intervention orders in place anyway, 715 00:47:37,342 --> 00:47:38,702 Speaker 1: So would that have made a difference. 716 00:47:39,742 --> 00:47:43,982 Speaker 2: Probably, well, no, probably not. But I think I suppose 717 00:47:44,422 --> 00:47:48,822 Speaker 2: in my conflict of telling the story, I have a 718 00:47:48,902 --> 00:47:53,222 Speaker 2: message about how important it is when you are frightened, 719 00:47:53,662 --> 00:47:56,862 Speaker 2: in fear of your life or in fear of violence 720 00:47:56,942 --> 00:48:01,462 Speaker 2: or whatever. It's important to number one, tell the police, 721 00:48:01,462 --> 00:48:03,462 Speaker 2: and the police should if they're doing their job properly, 722 00:48:03,542 --> 00:48:06,822 Speaker 2: they should. If they feel these genuine fears, they should 723 00:48:06,862 --> 00:48:11,222 Speaker 2: take out the intervention order, not the person that is 724 00:48:11,262 --> 00:48:16,702 Speaker 2: in fear, because it's so difficult to remove that order 725 00:48:16,702 --> 00:48:18,742 Speaker 2: once the police have put it in place, because they 726 00:48:18,742 --> 00:48:21,742 Speaker 2: have to agree to it. I just I think that's 727 00:48:21,982 --> 00:48:26,022 Speaker 2: a message that people can be manipulated to think, oh, 728 00:48:26,062 --> 00:48:31,662 Speaker 2: I'll remove it because the danger period's over. It's better 729 00:48:31,702 --> 00:48:34,382 Speaker 2: than nothing. People say it's just a piece of paper. 730 00:48:34,462 --> 00:48:37,702 Speaker 2: It is just a piece of paper. However, it gives 731 00:48:37,742 --> 00:48:41,022 Speaker 2: a police a power of arrest. It gives a police 732 00:48:41,582 --> 00:48:45,462 Speaker 2: some powers. I think intervention orders are a very important 733 00:48:45,462 --> 00:48:51,502 Speaker 2: part of the justice system and family violence people that 734 00:48:51,542 --> 00:48:55,062 Speaker 2: are concerned. It is just a piece of paper, but 735 00:48:55,142 --> 00:48:55,902 Speaker 2: it's powerful. 736 00:48:57,062 --> 00:49:01,662 Speaker 1: You've been very open about talking about the cumulative effects 737 00:49:02,022 --> 00:49:05,782 Speaker 1: of the job of policing, being a detective and how 738 00:49:05,822 --> 00:49:10,302 Speaker 1: it can affect your mental health. Is this is Maria's 739 00:49:10,542 --> 00:49:14,222 Speaker 1: case one that has stayed with you, that has affected you. 740 00:49:15,142 --> 00:49:20,742 Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely absolutely it has. Because I could explaining to 741 00:49:20,782 --> 00:49:25,102 Speaker 2: you about how I found Maria. I can still I 742 00:49:25,142 --> 00:49:29,702 Speaker 2: can see it all. I can remember the smell, I 743 00:49:29,742 --> 00:49:33,862 Speaker 2: can remember the emotion of how could somebody do this 744 00:49:33,942 --> 00:49:37,742 Speaker 2: to anybody else? I can remember, you know, comforting her, 745 00:49:37,862 --> 00:49:42,262 Speaker 2: and the how good it felt sort of to be 746 00:49:42,382 --> 00:49:46,502 Speaker 2: able to help Maria in the worst time of her life. 747 00:49:46,542 --> 00:49:51,502 Speaker 2: And maybe I remember all those things, that sort of 748 00:49:51,542 --> 00:49:57,382 Speaker 2: stuff you don't generally see, decomposing bodies and finding that 749 00:49:57,462 --> 00:50:04,342 Speaker 2: they're alive, Like that's really unusual, and you don't forget 750 00:50:04,382 --> 00:50:07,222 Speaker 2: those sort of things, And to think that's somebody's mother, 751 00:50:07,462 --> 00:50:11,142 Speaker 2: you know, like just such an innocent person. All she 752 00:50:11,222 --> 00:50:14,502 Speaker 2: wanted to do was please Joe, and all he could 753 00:50:14,582 --> 00:50:20,142 Speaker 2: think about was murdering her. Like just yeah, just what 754 00:50:21,062 --> 00:50:24,622 Speaker 2: some people do, never says, is to amaze me. 755 00:50:24,982 --> 00:50:29,702 Speaker 1: No, And like you say, your visceral kind of retelling 756 00:50:30,342 --> 00:50:32,862 Speaker 1: shows how much it kind of has stayed with you. 757 00:50:33,542 --> 00:50:36,182 Speaker 2: Oh god, yess yeah, yeah, yeah. 758 00:50:36,262 --> 00:50:39,702 Speaker 1: It has been twenty years this year since Maria's murder. 759 00:50:40,702 --> 00:50:44,222 Speaker 1: What do you want listeners to take away from revisiting 760 00:50:44,262 --> 00:50:48,022 Speaker 1: her case, you know, two decades on to. 761 00:50:48,022 --> 00:50:54,742 Speaker 2: Never forget her, to trust your instincts if you think 762 00:50:54,822 --> 00:51:01,182 Speaker 2: something isn't right, doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. I 763 00:51:01,222 --> 00:51:07,422 Speaker 2: think it's important that if you're in a situation where 764 00:51:07,422 --> 00:51:14,342 Speaker 2: you're concerned for your safety, somebody write down, make some 765 00:51:14,382 --> 00:51:22,502 Speaker 2: sort of notes somewhere, tell people, just so that if 766 00:51:22,542 --> 00:51:27,862 Speaker 2: something does happen, somebody might be able to corroborate, you know, 767 00:51:27,862 --> 00:51:31,702 Speaker 2: if something really bad happens and the person is murdered, 768 00:51:32,782 --> 00:51:38,302 Speaker 2: that it might help find, you know, the perpetrator. And 769 00:51:39,302 --> 00:51:42,142 Speaker 2: I was going to say him, because generally it is 770 00:51:43,022 --> 00:51:47,702 Speaker 2: statistically yeah, and there's another avenue we could go down. 771 00:51:47,782 --> 00:51:54,502 Speaker 2: But in the end, it's statistically men commit the majority 772 00:51:54,622 --> 00:51:58,742 Speaker 2: of these sort of offenses. And also for the men 773 00:51:59,342 --> 00:52:02,742 Speaker 2: that are angry or that are they feel like they're 774 00:52:02,782 --> 00:52:06,302 Speaker 2: losing control, go and get some help, Go and speak 775 00:52:06,342 --> 00:52:11,142 Speaker 2: to somebody, you know. It's it's just it all comes 776 00:52:11,182 --> 00:52:16,702 Speaker 2: back to speaking to someone like Joe. Just talk to somebody. 777 00:52:16,782 --> 00:52:20,022 Speaker 2: Tell somebody. I've had enough, and my wife I want 778 00:52:20,062 --> 00:52:22,862 Speaker 2: to go off with with my mistress. I don't know, 779 00:52:22,862 --> 00:52:28,022 Speaker 2: I just talk, just leave, just leave. 780 00:52:32,102 --> 00:52:34,742 Speaker 1: Thanks to Norell for assisting us to tell this story. 781 00:52:34,982 --> 00:52:38,822 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a mumamea podcast hosted and produced 782 00:52:38,822 --> 00:52:42,022 Speaker 1: by me Jemma Bath and Talie Blackman with audio design 783 00:52:42,222 --> 00:52:45,382 Speaker 1: by Jacob Brown. We'd love to hear your thoughts on 784 00:52:45,422 --> 00:52:48,622 Speaker 1: the show. Your feedback means so much to us. One 785 00:52:48,702 --> 00:52:50,582 Speaker 1: easy way to share your thoughts is by leaving a 786 00:52:50,662 --> 00:52:53,862 Speaker 1: review on Apple podcasts. Just scroll down to the bottom 787 00:52:53,902 --> 00:52:56,862 Speaker 1: of your podcast page, click write a review, and add 788 00:52:56,902 --> 00:52:59,982 Speaker 1: a star rating. You can also contact us direct at 789 00:52:59,982 --> 00:53:03,582 Speaker 1: true Crime at mammamea dot com dot au. Thanks so 790 00:53:03,662 --> 00:53:06,182 Speaker 1: much for listening. I'll be back next week with another 791 00:53:06,182 --> 00:53:07,382 Speaker 1: true Crime Conversation.