1 00:00:10,365 --> 00:00:13,125 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,925 --> 00:00:16,885 Speaker 2: Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,885 --> 00:00:28,005 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. For MoMA Mia, you're 4 00:00:28,045 --> 00:00:31,125 Speaker 2: listening to no filter. I'm mea Friedman and I always 5 00:00:31,165 --> 00:00:34,165 Speaker 2: wanted to be a cheerleader. It looked so fun, pomp 6 00:00:34,205 --> 00:00:39,685 Speaker 2: poms and the cute costumes dancing. I never managed it, though, 7 00:00:40,005 --> 00:00:43,685 Speaker 2: went into media instead, and I changed my aspirations, my hopes, 8 00:00:43,725 --> 00:00:47,365 Speaker 2: my dreams. But like seemingly everyone else on the planet, 9 00:00:47,405 --> 00:00:51,765 Speaker 2: recently I binged the Netflix show America's Sweethearts the Dallas 10 00:00:51,805 --> 00:00:55,645 Speaker 2: Cowboy Cheerleaders, which, if you weren't watching, it followed the 11 00:00:55,685 --> 00:00:59,245 Speaker 2: twenty twenty three squad of thirty six cheerleaders and how 12 00:00:59,285 --> 00:01:03,885 Speaker 2: it was formed in a seven part documentary series, from 13 00:01:03,885 --> 00:01:07,445 Speaker 2: the cutthroat tryouts to the grueling practices and the big 14 00:01:07,485 --> 00:01:11,565 Speaker 2: game performances and the lives of some of the cheerleaders. 15 00:01:12,045 --> 00:01:14,845 Speaker 2: It is one of the most famous cheerleading squad, if 16 00:01:14,845 --> 00:01:17,245 Speaker 2: not the most famous cheerleading squad, for one of the 17 00:01:17,285 --> 00:01:20,765 Speaker 2: most famous football teams in the world, And like so 18 00:01:20,845 --> 00:01:23,485 Speaker 2: many people, I watched the series with a mix of 19 00:01:23,645 --> 00:01:28,045 Speaker 2: awe and kind of shock. I was awed by the 20 00:01:28,085 --> 00:01:30,765 Speaker 2: talent and the skill of these women. I mean those 21 00:01:30,885 --> 00:01:35,885 Speaker 2: jump splits ouch. They really are athletes. But I was 22 00:01:35,925 --> 00:01:40,005 Speaker 2: shocked at the level of scrutiny thereunder at the wildly 23 00:01:40,085 --> 00:01:43,125 Speaker 2: high standards that they try so hard to meet, Standards 24 00:01:43,165 --> 00:01:47,245 Speaker 2: about their bodies and their weight, their personalities, their morality, 25 00:01:47,605 --> 00:01:51,725 Speaker 2: and their behavior on and off the field. We catch 26 00:01:51,805 --> 00:01:54,245 Speaker 2: a few glimpses of the very high costs of being 27 00:01:54,285 --> 00:01:57,685 Speaker 2: a Dallas Cowboys cheerleader. But did you get the sense 28 00:01:57,965 --> 00:02:00,805 Speaker 2: I know I did that we were really only seeing 29 00:02:00,845 --> 00:02:03,685 Speaker 2: the tip of the iceberg. A lot of things were 30 00:02:03,725 --> 00:02:07,445 Speaker 2: left unsaid in that documentary series when it comes to 31 00:02:07,485 --> 00:02:12,685 Speaker 2: things like injuries and the issues around pay, the sexual exploitation, 32 00:02:13,405 --> 00:02:17,405 Speaker 2: and the deep, deep body image issues that arise in 33 00:02:17,765 --> 00:02:21,085 Speaker 2: environments that are all about a kind of Barbie doll. Look, 34 00:02:21,485 --> 00:02:25,085 Speaker 2: it's not that these women aren't intelligent and amazing. They 35 00:02:25,165 --> 00:02:30,085 Speaker 2: absolutely are. But my guest today knows a whole lot more. 36 00:02:30,605 --> 00:02:34,165 Speaker 2: Sarah Heppler is the expert on all things Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders. 37 00:02:34,565 --> 00:02:36,845 Speaker 2: You might have seen her in the Netflix show. She 38 00:02:36,925 --> 00:02:41,245 Speaker 2: also hosted her own podcast years earlier. It was called 39 00:02:41,325 --> 00:02:45,605 Speaker 2: America's Girls, and that also was a documentary about the cheerleaders, 40 00:02:45,845 --> 00:02:48,765 Speaker 2: but it went a whole lot deeper and really portrayed 41 00:02:49,045 --> 00:02:52,085 Speaker 2: what goes on behind the glossy venier that we saw 42 00:02:52,165 --> 00:02:55,605 Speaker 2: on our screens. She is a true Texan to boot, 43 00:02:55,725 --> 00:02:58,725 Speaker 2: so she knows of what she speaks and it is 44 00:02:58,845 --> 00:03:01,245 Speaker 2: so much more jaw dropping than what we all saw 45 00:03:01,285 --> 00:03:04,045 Speaker 2: on Netflix. So put your pump pums together and do 46 00:03:04,165 --> 00:03:09,565 Speaker 2: a jump split, careful of your hips. Here's Sarah Heppler. 47 00:03:09,685 --> 00:03:13,165 Speaker 2: You recently wrote for The Dallas Morning News about the 48 00:03:13,565 --> 00:03:17,605 Speaker 2: Netflix show. The show seven episodes can't possibly tackle all 49 00:03:17,645 --> 00:03:22,565 Speaker 2: the cheerleaders many controversies, fair pay, sexual exploitation, injuries, body image. 50 00:03:22,805 --> 00:03:26,245 Speaker 2: These topics have glanced upon, but never fully confronted. As 51 00:03:26,245 --> 00:03:30,565 Speaker 2: someone who has become such an expert on the cheerleaders 52 00:03:30,605 --> 00:03:32,965 Speaker 2: on Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders, what did you think when you 53 00:03:33,005 --> 00:03:34,085 Speaker 2: watch the documentary? 54 00:03:34,365 --> 00:03:37,965 Speaker 3: It's the perfect starter kit to kind of introduce it 55 00:03:38,005 --> 00:03:40,565 Speaker 3: to a mass audience. And the show has done incredibly well. 56 00:03:40,885 --> 00:03:42,965 Speaker 3: I mean, the day that I was writing about it 57 00:03:43,285 --> 00:03:45,085 Speaker 3: for The Dallas Morning News, it was number one on 58 00:03:45,125 --> 00:03:47,165 Speaker 3: Netflix here in America, and I think it's been number 59 00:03:47,205 --> 00:03:50,445 Speaker 3: one in Canada and Australia and maybe even Britain. Yeah, 60 00:03:50,525 --> 00:03:53,805 Speaker 3: I've gotten tons of emails and people want to talk 61 00:03:53,845 --> 00:03:57,325 Speaker 3: about these characters. Why did Victoria do this? Or what 62 00:03:57,365 --> 00:03:59,885 Speaker 3: does Callie really like? Or whatever it is. That's sort of, 63 00:03:59,885 --> 00:04:03,565 Speaker 3: you know, in that reality TV show way of sparking 64 00:04:04,005 --> 00:04:09,085 Speaker 3: the psychological profiler inside your brain that wants to untangle 65 00:04:09,085 --> 00:04:12,325 Speaker 3: every So it definitely does that. It gives you all 66 00:04:12,405 --> 00:04:15,085 Speaker 3: this candy to work with, and then of course there's 67 00:04:15,165 --> 00:04:17,965 Speaker 3: just the eye candy of the thing itself. It's nice 68 00:04:18,005 --> 00:04:20,765 Speaker 3: that all these different things are there because the truth 69 00:04:20,845 --> 00:04:24,645 Speaker 3: is as frivolous as it sounds. Cheerleaders in Dallas, Texas, 70 00:04:24,725 --> 00:04:27,245 Speaker 3: I know, I get it. It's actually like a really 71 00:04:27,285 --> 00:04:34,845 Speaker 3: profound story about women and their place in society, moving 72 00:04:34,965 --> 00:04:40,165 Speaker 3: from the sidelines into something more like center stage. It's 73 00:04:40,205 --> 00:04:43,285 Speaker 3: a group that is shaped by women for the better 74 00:04:43,325 --> 00:04:46,085 Speaker 3: and worse, you know, because women can be the most 75 00:04:46,365 --> 00:04:50,445 Speaker 3: cruel to each other. So it's a story about beauty 76 00:04:50,645 --> 00:04:55,205 Speaker 3: and image and value and all these things that kind 77 00:04:55,205 --> 00:04:58,645 Speaker 3: of go deep in the Western psyche. 78 00:04:58,365 --> 00:05:00,525 Speaker 2: And looking really at the role of women in pop 79 00:05:00,565 --> 00:05:04,205 Speaker 2: culture and how that changed, and attitudes to women and sexuality, 80 00:05:04,525 --> 00:05:08,125 Speaker 2: which is something that your podcast explores so much more 81 00:05:08,605 --> 00:05:12,565 Speaker 2: than the Netflick show. You start in America's Girls at 82 00:05:12,565 --> 00:05:14,765 Speaker 2: the beginning in nineteen seventy two. But I want to 83 00:05:14,885 --> 00:05:19,885 Speaker 2: jump ahead to the point where Jerry Jones bought the 84 00:05:20,005 --> 00:05:23,725 Speaker 2: Dallas Cowboys. Can you tell me when that was and 85 00:05:24,045 --> 00:05:27,485 Speaker 2: what was the state of play of the Dacca when 86 00:05:27,685 --> 00:05:28,725 Speaker 2: he bought them? 87 00:05:29,005 --> 00:05:32,245 Speaker 3: Well, it was nineteen eighty nine, you know, And what 88 00:05:32,285 --> 00:05:36,245 Speaker 3: you should know is that the Dallas Cowboys were an institution. 89 00:05:37,085 --> 00:05:40,205 Speaker 1: You know, it was as sacred as. 90 00:05:40,125 --> 00:05:42,965 Speaker 3: The oldest church in town. But they were not a 91 00:05:43,005 --> 00:05:49,805 Speaker 3: winning team. They'd had several long losing seasons and they 92 00:05:49,805 --> 00:05:55,085 Speaker 3: were losing money. And this swaggering outlaw, this Arkansas oil 93 00:05:55,125 --> 00:05:57,805 Speaker 3: man named Jerry Jones. Nobody had ever heard of him, 94 00:05:57,845 --> 00:06:00,685 Speaker 3: and I mean he just basically came on to the 95 00:06:00,765 --> 00:06:03,045 Speaker 3: chessboard and just knocked over all the pieces. 96 00:06:03,125 --> 00:06:05,965 Speaker 1: You know. He fires Tom Landry, the legendary coach. 97 00:06:06,205 --> 00:06:08,525 Speaker 3: He pushes out Tech Stram, the general manager that had 98 00:06:08,525 --> 00:06:11,165 Speaker 3: been there from the beginning and built the entire brand, 99 00:06:11,725 --> 00:06:16,205 Speaker 3: a marketing genius. And it's like Dallas is gutted, right. 100 00:06:16,325 --> 00:06:19,445 Speaker 3: Everybody hates him. And you know, your question was about 101 00:06:19,445 --> 00:06:21,725 Speaker 3: what were the cheerleaders like at the time. You know, 102 00:06:21,805 --> 00:06:24,765 Speaker 3: the cheerleaders had been an institution, but they were also 103 00:06:24,965 --> 00:06:28,805 Speaker 3: somewhat stuck in a rut. But the big thing about 104 00:06:28,805 --> 00:06:31,085 Speaker 3: the cheerleaders, if you were in Dallas, or if you 105 00:06:31,125 --> 00:06:33,845 Speaker 3: followed them a little closely, was you knew they never 106 00:06:33,925 --> 00:06:36,685 Speaker 3: date the football players. Well, this is the line. Okay, 107 00:06:36,925 --> 00:06:39,565 Speaker 3: this is the company line. Now, of course, did they 108 00:06:39,645 --> 00:06:41,845 Speaker 3: date the football players. I'm sure, I'm sure some of 109 00:06:41,845 --> 00:06:45,045 Speaker 3: them did. But the line, the company line, was they 110 00:06:45,085 --> 00:06:48,005 Speaker 3: are never to date the football players. They are innocent 111 00:06:48,085 --> 00:06:48,965 Speaker 3: girls next door. 112 00:06:49,525 --> 00:06:49,725 Speaker 1: You know. 113 00:06:49,805 --> 00:06:52,525 Speaker 3: There is a rule book about the size of the 114 00:06:52,565 --> 00:06:56,525 Speaker 3: old phone books that you know, they used to get 115 00:06:56,605 --> 00:07:00,645 Speaker 3: in the eighties and nineties. It's something called an indoctrination ceremony. 116 00:07:01,005 --> 00:07:04,565 Speaker 3: It would basically be like your best behavior, how to eat, 117 00:07:05,205 --> 00:07:08,005 Speaker 3: how to dress, how to answer questions. And I think 118 00:07:08,045 --> 00:07:10,685 Speaker 3: for the modern mind, I think for the modern woman, 119 00:07:10,805 --> 00:07:14,365 Speaker 3: this is a million paper cuts. It's like, ah, you know, 120 00:07:14,445 --> 00:07:16,925 Speaker 3: don't tell me how to dress, don't tell me how 121 00:07:16,925 --> 00:07:19,165 Speaker 3: to eat, you know, because we are so steeped in 122 00:07:19,205 --> 00:07:22,125 Speaker 3: a sort of you know, I'll do it my own way, 123 00:07:22,165 --> 00:07:26,085 Speaker 3: thank you very much. However, I just want to say 124 00:07:26,165 --> 00:07:29,005 Speaker 3: that part of what they saw their value as being 125 00:07:29,125 --> 00:07:31,885 Speaker 3: was a kind of finishing school for young girls that 126 00:07:31,885 --> 00:07:34,885 Speaker 3: had grown up on farms, young girls that wanted access 127 00:07:34,925 --> 00:07:38,445 Speaker 3: to a larger life, and part of that access was 128 00:07:38,525 --> 00:07:41,685 Speaker 3: going to require dressing right, eating right. I mean, it's 129 00:07:41,685 --> 00:07:44,485 Speaker 3: a pretty woman's story. It's a Cinderella story. You know 130 00:07:44,645 --> 00:07:47,605 Speaker 3: that if you go from X to Y, and if 131 00:07:47,645 --> 00:07:50,045 Speaker 3: you want to be at Y, you're going to need 132 00:07:50,045 --> 00:07:53,445 Speaker 3: to learn the ropes. And this was a place that, 133 00:07:54,325 --> 00:07:58,405 Speaker 3: for free, would teach you the ropes into a kind 134 00:07:58,445 --> 00:08:00,365 Speaker 3: of more established adulthood. 135 00:08:00,365 --> 00:08:02,965 Speaker 2: And it's interesting that you say that, because what the 136 00:08:03,045 --> 00:08:05,925 Speaker 2: Netflix should I made clear, and of course your podcast, 137 00:08:06,085 --> 00:08:08,845 Speaker 2: is that these women, as is so often the case, 138 00:08:09,485 --> 00:08:13,045 Speaker 2: just because they're pretty and can dance and are attractive 139 00:08:13,565 --> 00:08:19,365 Speaker 2: doesn't mean they're not also intelligent, ambitious, complex layered, nuanced, interesting, 140 00:08:19,605 --> 00:08:23,725 Speaker 2: multi dimensional people from a niche who is the orthodontist 141 00:08:23,925 --> 00:08:27,005 Speaker 2: to you know, all the girls who have marketing degrees 142 00:08:27,045 --> 00:08:29,365 Speaker 2: and are doing all sorts of other things in nursing 143 00:08:29,365 --> 00:08:31,965 Speaker 2: and all kinds of roles. But I want to drill 144 00:08:32,045 --> 00:08:35,845 Speaker 2: down on this idea of the rules because you mentioned it. 145 00:08:35,885 --> 00:08:37,885 Speaker 2: I mean, that was something that came up a lot, 146 00:08:37,965 --> 00:08:42,005 Speaker 2: this idea of the rules, because it seems like there's 147 00:08:42,005 --> 00:08:44,485 Speaker 2: a part of the rules which is about appearance, but 148 00:08:44,525 --> 00:08:48,765 Speaker 2: there are also rules that are more about morality and 149 00:08:48,805 --> 00:08:52,405 Speaker 2: this idea of what a Dallas Cowboy cheerleader needs to 150 00:08:52,485 --> 00:08:55,325 Speaker 2: represent as a woman. And I want to ask you 151 00:08:55,365 --> 00:08:58,405 Speaker 2: about the fratonization rule because what was missing from me 152 00:08:59,325 --> 00:09:01,765 Speaker 2: in the Netflix thing was the voice of the players. 153 00:09:02,285 --> 00:09:06,445 Speaker 2: What are the players think of the DCC and why 154 00:09:06,525 --> 00:09:09,525 Speaker 2: is that fraternization rule there? Like, what's the history of it? 155 00:09:09,565 --> 00:09:12,325 Speaker 2: Because I know that it's the same not just for DCC, 156 00:09:12,485 --> 00:09:15,045 Speaker 2: but it's even for cheerleaders in Australia on pretty much 157 00:09:15,045 --> 00:09:18,365 Speaker 2: every team, there is no fraternization rule between the cheer 158 00:09:18,405 --> 00:09:19,685 Speaker 2: squad and the players. 159 00:09:19,725 --> 00:09:22,445 Speaker 3: Why is that the no fraternization rule was in place 160 00:09:22,525 --> 00:09:26,485 Speaker 3: since nineteen seventy two when they first became a professional 161 00:09:26,805 --> 00:09:29,805 Speaker 3: cheerleading squad. Before then they had used like high school girls. 162 00:09:30,205 --> 00:09:30,845 Speaker 1: It took me a. 163 00:09:30,805 --> 00:09:34,125 Speaker 3: While to figure out that. I'm pretty sure it came 164 00:09:34,165 --> 00:09:39,125 Speaker 3: from coach Landry, who was the football coach, because basically, 165 00:09:39,205 --> 00:09:42,925 Speaker 3: if you introduced a bunch of really beautiful young women 166 00:09:44,045 --> 00:09:48,605 Speaker 3: onto the field of football players, their wives were going 167 00:09:48,645 --> 00:09:49,405 Speaker 3: to freak out. 168 00:09:49,965 --> 00:09:53,885 Speaker 2: Oh, I hadn't thought about that. It's about it was 169 00:09:54,005 --> 00:09:57,045 Speaker 2: why why the player? It was yeah, okay, it never 170 00:09:57,085 --> 00:09:58,845 Speaker 2: made sense to me because I'm like, is it to 171 00:09:58,925 --> 00:10:02,685 Speaker 2: protect the virtue of the cheerleaders? Is it to protect 172 00:10:02,725 --> 00:10:05,725 Speaker 2: the players from not being able to control themselves? 173 00:10:05,805 --> 00:10:08,125 Speaker 1: And it's not control themselves as distraction? 174 00:10:08,405 --> 00:10:08,645 Speaker 2: Oh? 175 00:10:08,685 --> 00:10:11,005 Speaker 3: I mean I don't Well they cared about the players 176 00:10:11,085 --> 00:10:14,365 Speaker 3: controlling themselves, because there's plenty of crazy stories that suggest 177 00:10:14,445 --> 00:10:17,005 Speaker 3: they did not. What they cared about was distraction on 178 00:10:17,045 --> 00:10:19,765 Speaker 3: the field. And what they also cared about was wives 179 00:10:19,805 --> 00:10:22,165 Speaker 3: showing up to coach Landry's office and banging on the 180 00:10:22,205 --> 00:10:23,205 Speaker 3: door and saying. 181 00:10:23,165 --> 00:10:26,565 Speaker 1: Why the hell are there? You know, girls in. 182 00:10:26,845 --> 00:10:29,445 Speaker 3: Rop tops on the side of this field where my 183 00:10:29,525 --> 00:10:33,125 Speaker 3: husband is working. And in that Netflix series, one of 184 00:10:33,165 --> 00:10:36,285 Speaker 3: the cheerleaders is very religious. Yes, And I was watching 185 00:10:36,325 --> 00:10:38,525 Speaker 3: it with a group of people and one of the 186 00:10:38,565 --> 00:10:40,645 Speaker 3: girls said, I guess that's a little unusual, and I 187 00:10:40,685 --> 00:10:43,005 Speaker 3: was like, oh, no, no, no, that's very on brand speak 188 00:10:43,045 --> 00:10:45,565 Speaker 3: to that. It is a very Christian organization and I 189 00:10:45,565 --> 00:10:48,805 Speaker 3: think maybe not so much now, but like through this 190 00:10:48,925 --> 00:10:52,365 Speaker 3: seventies and eighties, it touted itself as a Christian organization 191 00:10:52,885 --> 00:10:56,245 Speaker 3: and it held to those virtues, meaning that you are 192 00:10:56,325 --> 00:11:00,005 Speaker 3: protecting the virtue of a woman. And you or I 193 00:11:00,085 --> 00:11:03,085 Speaker 3: may blanche at that, we may not like the sound 194 00:11:03,125 --> 00:11:05,805 Speaker 3: of that, but you have to remember that part of 195 00:11:05,845 --> 00:11:08,525 Speaker 3: what they're doing is, hey, look, the world is going 196 00:11:08,565 --> 00:11:12,045 Speaker 3: to look you as as less than if you don't 197 00:11:12,085 --> 00:11:14,565 Speaker 3: present this face. So we're going to help you present 198 00:11:14,605 --> 00:11:17,165 Speaker 3: this face. Your reputation is not ruined. You don't give 199 00:11:17,205 --> 00:11:21,325 Speaker 3: this away for momentary whatever. All the reasons that you know, 200 00:11:21,365 --> 00:11:23,925 Speaker 3: you could call them rules. You could call them protection, 201 00:11:24,485 --> 00:11:25,885 Speaker 3: you could call them etiquette. 202 00:11:26,125 --> 00:11:27,365 Speaker 1: They are rules of behavior. 203 00:11:28,045 --> 00:11:30,485 Speaker 3: And yes, I think you're correct to see morality in 204 00:11:30,525 --> 00:11:34,445 Speaker 3: that as well. The no fraternization rule. It just makes 205 00:11:34,445 --> 00:11:38,645 Speaker 3: sense to me because I also have done stories about 206 00:11:38,725 --> 00:11:42,005 Speaker 3: cheer squads where there wasn't that rule in place, and 207 00:11:42,325 --> 00:11:44,965 Speaker 3: some of the nonsense that starts getting like, I'm not 208 00:11:45,005 --> 00:11:47,045 Speaker 3: saying that there wasn't nonsense in the Cowboys. 209 00:11:47,085 --> 00:11:48,605 Speaker 1: There's a ton of nonsense. 210 00:11:48,685 --> 00:11:51,685 Speaker 3: But to try to control it a little bit. When 211 00:11:51,725 --> 00:11:53,925 Speaker 3: you are allowed to date each other, think about, like 212 00:11:53,965 --> 00:11:56,685 Speaker 3: what happens when you break up, Think about what happens 213 00:11:56,685 --> 00:11:58,205 Speaker 3: when somebody gets their heart broken. 214 00:11:58,325 --> 00:12:00,165 Speaker 2: I didn't think about it as an office ryman. It's 215 00:12:00,165 --> 00:12:00,645 Speaker 2: gone wrong. 216 00:12:00,725 --> 00:12:03,525 Speaker 1: Potentially it's an office reman. It's gone wrong, and you know, 217 00:12:03,845 --> 00:12:04,925 Speaker 1: this is your workplace. 218 00:12:05,005 --> 00:12:07,085 Speaker 3: And there are plenty of places throughout the seventies and 219 00:12:07,085 --> 00:12:09,285 Speaker 3: eighties that are starting to say, you know, hey, we 220 00:12:09,445 --> 00:12:12,085 Speaker 3: shouldn't be dating people in the workplace. It runs a 221 00:12:12,125 --> 00:12:15,965 Speaker 3: foul of people's fantasies about what the cowboys and cheerleaders 222 00:12:16,005 --> 00:12:18,925 Speaker 3: would be because there is this They never say this explicitly, 223 00:12:19,205 --> 00:12:23,725 Speaker 3: but there is this like tacit understanding that like, here 224 00:12:23,885 --> 00:12:27,685 Speaker 3: are the thirty six hottest women, and they're the ones 225 00:12:27,765 --> 00:12:30,845 Speaker 3: that are going to be dating the most amazing players 226 00:12:30,885 --> 00:12:32,685 Speaker 3: on the field, and like cheerlead. 227 00:12:33,005 --> 00:12:35,845 Speaker 2: The football team. For sure, we grew up on that. 228 00:12:35,965 --> 00:12:39,045 Speaker 3: It's an American cliche, you know, it's it's an American 229 00:12:39,365 --> 00:12:43,285 Speaker 3: fairy tale. Essentially, it's your prince and your princess. And 230 00:12:43,325 --> 00:12:46,285 Speaker 3: so that rule was in place since nineteen seventy two, 231 00:12:46,765 --> 00:12:49,005 Speaker 3: and they were really strict about it. But I will 232 00:12:49,045 --> 00:12:50,885 Speaker 3: say one thing, which is that the women running the 233 00:12:50,965 --> 00:12:54,725 Speaker 3: cheerleading squad were strict about it. The coaches weren't really 234 00:12:54,765 --> 00:12:58,845 Speaker 3: paying attention to it. They don't really care. Like if 235 00:12:59,165 --> 00:13:04,285 Speaker 3: some quarterback who will go unnamed, had a reputation for 236 00:13:04,445 --> 00:13:07,605 Speaker 3: nosing around the cheerleaders and trying to give his phone number. 237 00:13:07,965 --> 00:13:10,685 Speaker 3: The coach isn't really going to care. The cheerleader's going 238 00:13:10,685 --> 00:13:13,325 Speaker 3: to get in trouble. And that's where it becomes really 239 00:13:13,365 --> 00:13:16,405 Speaker 3: super unfair, Right, that's the kind of double standard where 240 00:13:16,405 --> 00:13:19,005 Speaker 3: the cheerleaders are going like, Hey, I don't even want 241 00:13:19,045 --> 00:13:20,405 Speaker 3: to talk to you. I'm gonna get in trouble. I'm 242 00:13:20,405 --> 00:13:22,765 Speaker 3: gonna get in trouble, and the guy's still kind of 243 00:13:22,805 --> 00:13:26,325 Speaker 3: heat seeking. Now, you asked about the change when Jerry 244 00:13:26,405 --> 00:13:29,085 Speaker 3: Jones took over. I left that hanging a little bit. 245 00:13:29,125 --> 00:13:30,725 Speaker 3: I wanted to say that one of the things Jerry 246 00:13:30,765 --> 00:13:32,885 Speaker 3: Jones did when he came in in eighty nine was 247 00:13:32,925 --> 00:13:35,525 Speaker 3: he wants to loosen up the cheerleading squad. He wants 248 00:13:35,605 --> 00:13:37,885 Speaker 3: to make the uniform sexier. He wants the players to 249 00:13:37,965 --> 00:13:38,685 Speaker 3: date cheerleaders. 250 00:13:38,725 --> 00:13:41,405 Speaker 2: There's a part in the podcast where you talk to 251 00:13:41,445 --> 00:13:44,525 Speaker 2: someone about how they would be booked for these appearances 252 00:13:44,605 --> 00:13:48,005 Speaker 2: and go to hospitals and age care homes. And this 253 00:13:48,165 --> 00:13:50,765 Speaker 2: girl got a request one of the team, and it 254 00:13:50,925 --> 00:13:54,405 Speaker 2: was to go on his private jet in uniform, and 255 00:13:54,445 --> 00:13:57,445 Speaker 2: she was like, hang on a second. And he would 256 00:13:57,445 --> 00:14:00,285 Speaker 2: bring his friends to cheer rehearsals to just sit on 257 00:14:00,325 --> 00:14:03,005 Speaker 2: the sidelines and drink beer and smoke and watch the girls. 258 00:14:03,085 --> 00:14:06,645 Speaker 2: And he really took advantage of his position, and they 259 00:14:06,845 --> 00:14:09,085 Speaker 2: suddenly felt exploited. Right. 260 00:14:09,325 --> 00:14:12,125 Speaker 3: I don't remember who it was that I interviewed that said, No, 261 00:14:12,205 --> 00:14:14,885 Speaker 3: it was like it was Christmas and he was opening 262 00:14:14,965 --> 00:14:17,685 Speaker 3: up Alla's toys and one of his toys was the 263 00:14:17,765 --> 00:14:22,365 Speaker 3: Dallas Cowboys cheerleader Creepy. And you know, it was a 264 00:14:22,965 --> 00:14:27,125 Speaker 3: energetic shift away from the previous ownership. You know, Tech 265 00:14:27,165 --> 00:14:30,445 Speaker 3: Shram was the general manager. He loved to swing in 266 00:14:30,485 --> 00:14:33,045 Speaker 3: good time. But he was old fashioned in that sense 267 00:14:33,045 --> 00:14:35,205 Speaker 3: that the cheerleaders were like on a pedestal. 268 00:14:35,285 --> 00:14:36,925 Speaker 2: He respected them, Yes he did. 269 00:14:37,245 --> 00:14:40,685 Speaker 3: And he didn't go to the practices like ever, like 270 00:14:40,685 --> 00:14:42,525 Speaker 3: I don't think he was interested. Like one of the 271 00:14:42,525 --> 00:14:44,325 Speaker 3: things you asked was what do the football players think 272 00:14:44,325 --> 00:14:46,725 Speaker 3: of the cheerleaders? I actually think the answer is they 273 00:14:46,765 --> 00:14:51,405 Speaker 3: mostly don't think about them. My observation with hardcore sports 274 00:14:51,445 --> 00:14:54,085 Speaker 3: fans is that they also don't care about the cheerleaders. 275 00:14:54,285 --> 00:14:57,525 Speaker 3: You know, the cheerleaders are obviously introduced in the seventies 276 00:14:57,685 --> 00:15:01,445 Speaker 3: to court certain male viewership. But one of the interesting 277 00:15:01,485 --> 00:15:04,365 Speaker 3: twists in the cheerleader storyline is that they begin to 278 00:15:04,525 --> 00:15:08,605 Speaker 3: mostly appeal to women and gay men because they are 279 00:15:08,685 --> 00:15:13,005 Speaker 3: dancing and they are shiny, and the pop sexualization of 280 00:15:13,045 --> 00:15:15,925 Speaker 3: women has become so mundane that sexy women on the 281 00:15:15,925 --> 00:15:18,805 Speaker 3: sideline is no longer interesting to your armchair viewer because 282 00:15:18,965 --> 00:15:20,725 Speaker 3: you could see it anywhere because the billboard. 283 00:15:20,765 --> 00:15:22,285 Speaker 2: You can see it on your phone while sitting in 284 00:15:22,285 --> 00:15:22,645 Speaker 2: the stand. 285 00:15:23,085 --> 00:15:23,925 Speaker 1: Yeah, the Internet aid. 286 00:15:24,485 --> 00:15:27,365 Speaker 3: But the people that become very fascinated with the cheerleaders 287 00:15:27,765 --> 00:15:31,965 Speaker 3: are women and especially young girls who look out on 288 00:15:32,005 --> 00:15:35,725 Speaker 3: that field and are looking for where they would be, 289 00:15:36,525 --> 00:15:39,485 Speaker 3: and it is a deeply male game. I don't know 290 00:15:39,525 --> 00:15:42,245 Speaker 3: how you are with sports, but like not good basketball. 291 00:15:42,285 --> 00:15:45,845 Speaker 3: I understand hockey. I like you know, football is so 292 00:15:45,965 --> 00:15:47,805 Speaker 3: militaristic it's confusing. 293 00:15:47,965 --> 00:15:51,005 Speaker 2: Everything I know about American football is against my will. 294 00:15:51,045 --> 00:15:52,525 Speaker 2: And thanks to Travis Kelce. 295 00:15:54,765 --> 00:15:58,005 Speaker 3: You are in a very large boat with that one. 296 00:15:58,725 --> 00:16:08,205 Speaker 2: More of my conversation with Sarah after this break. When 297 00:16:08,405 --> 00:16:11,805 Speaker 2: you watch the show, it seems like the cheerleaders are 298 00:16:11,845 --> 00:16:13,805 Speaker 2: the main event, right and it seems like the stands 299 00:16:13,805 --> 00:16:15,925 Speaker 2: are packed. But when I went on YouTube and looked 300 00:16:16,525 --> 00:16:19,885 Speaker 2: for more footage, the stands are pretty empty. Like when 301 00:16:19,925 --> 00:16:23,805 Speaker 2: they perform, it's not everyone cheering and shouting. Most people 302 00:16:23,845 --> 00:16:25,525 Speaker 2: have probably gone to get a beer. Like I was 303 00:16:25,605 --> 00:16:26,605 Speaker 2: really struck by that. 304 00:16:27,005 --> 00:16:30,245 Speaker 3: I was struck by that as well when I finally 305 00:16:30,365 --> 00:16:33,045 Speaker 3: saw them in person, because I did the podcast during 306 00:16:33,085 --> 00:16:37,125 Speaker 3: the pandemic, and so even when I went to a game, 307 00:16:37,365 --> 00:16:39,125 Speaker 3: it was like that weird thing where you could the 308 00:16:39,125 --> 00:16:41,325 Speaker 3: stance can only be a quarter fall or whatever. So 309 00:16:41,485 --> 00:16:44,165 Speaker 3: when I finally went back to a game, I was 310 00:16:44,245 --> 00:16:47,765 Speaker 3: really shocked at how little people were paying attention to them. 311 00:16:48,285 --> 00:16:52,485 Speaker 3: They dance for the entire game pretty much, and they 312 00:16:52,525 --> 00:16:54,965 Speaker 3: have all this code. I mean to me, honestly, it 313 00:16:55,045 --> 00:16:57,525 Speaker 3: just looks like it's like hip shimmy, Hip shimmy, shimmy, 314 00:16:57,565 --> 00:17:01,085 Speaker 3: shimmy shimmy. But it's like Formation five thirty thirty, you 315 00:17:01,085 --> 00:17:02,485 Speaker 3: know on the West. 316 00:17:02,405 --> 00:17:04,565 Speaker 2: Because they've got like one hundred dance routines and it's 317 00:17:04,605 --> 00:17:06,245 Speaker 2: like routine number seventy six. 318 00:17:06,565 --> 00:17:08,085 Speaker 1: God seriously, no, They've. 319 00:17:07,885 --> 00:17:09,605 Speaker 3: Got like two hundred routeines in their head and they're 320 00:17:09,645 --> 00:17:13,325 Speaker 3: doing them like and they are moving the entire time. 321 00:17:13,925 --> 00:17:16,965 Speaker 3: They are tiny, by the way, like they're so little. 322 00:17:17,205 --> 00:17:19,045 Speaker 3: I thought they were like big because you see them 323 00:17:19,085 --> 00:17:22,045 Speaker 3: on TV. But they're like I wouldn't say gymnast size, 324 00:17:22,085 --> 00:17:24,685 Speaker 3: but like really, yeah, they're really small. 325 00:17:25,045 --> 00:17:28,245 Speaker 1: They're like five two to five six or five eight. 326 00:17:28,285 --> 00:17:31,005 Speaker 3: I mean, obviously some of them are taller, but I 327 00:17:31,045 --> 00:17:32,925 Speaker 3: mean like, for the most part, they're They're. 328 00:17:32,765 --> 00:17:35,285 Speaker 2: Not Amazons, which is have I sort of come across. 329 00:17:35,525 --> 00:17:39,365 Speaker 3: I thought they were ones like superly did. And you 330 00:17:39,405 --> 00:17:42,885 Speaker 3: should see their uniforms hanging on a hanger. Honestly, it 331 00:17:42,885 --> 00:17:46,805 Speaker 3: looks like toddler clothing is like tiny little white shorts. 332 00:17:47,165 --> 00:17:48,805 Speaker 3: I remember when I first started the podcast. I'm just 333 00:17:48,805 --> 00:17:51,165 Speaker 3: gonna tell you this is so embarrassing. When I first 334 00:17:51,165 --> 00:17:53,685 Speaker 3: started the podcast, I was like, I'm gonna diet and 335 00:17:53,765 --> 00:17:55,805 Speaker 3: for the end of the podcast, I am going to 336 00:17:55,925 --> 00:17:59,885 Speaker 3: debut my Dallas Cowboys cheerleader uniform. 337 00:18:00,005 --> 00:18:03,285 Speaker 1: Like I was like working out, like going to bar 338 00:18:03,405 --> 00:18:04,325 Speaker 1: class all the time. 339 00:18:05,005 --> 00:18:08,205 Speaker 3: And I ordered like a fake one online and I 340 00:18:08,245 --> 00:18:10,245 Speaker 3: put it on, and I was like, I will never 341 00:18:10,405 --> 00:18:11,965 Speaker 3: show this in public. 342 00:18:11,725 --> 00:18:13,565 Speaker 1: Like I will never ever. 343 00:18:14,085 --> 00:18:16,885 Speaker 3: It looks so bad on me, like and look, I'm 344 00:18:16,925 --> 00:18:21,005 Speaker 3: not the target demographic for cheerleaders, either in body size 345 00:18:21,125 --> 00:18:22,205 Speaker 3: or in age. 346 00:18:22,845 --> 00:18:24,805 Speaker 1: But I mean, like I thought I had a hope, right, 347 00:18:24,925 --> 00:18:28,925 Speaker 1: you know, I thought I had a small hope and 348 00:18:29,005 --> 00:18:30,565 Speaker 1: it was just like, no freaking way. 349 00:18:30,685 --> 00:18:32,605 Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about that. I want to ask you 350 00:18:32,645 --> 00:18:34,805 Speaker 2: about that. Can you explain the white list? 351 00:18:35,485 --> 00:18:39,685 Speaker 3: Yeah, the wait list dates back to the seventies. A 352 00:18:39,725 --> 00:18:42,645 Speaker 3: woman named Suzanne Mitchell had taken over and she had 353 00:18:42,645 --> 00:18:45,325 Speaker 3: a real boot camp mentality, and one of the things 354 00:18:45,325 --> 00:18:48,285 Speaker 3: she would do was post everybody's weight once a week. 355 00:18:48,325 --> 00:18:50,885 Speaker 3: You would get weighed at least once a week. When 356 00:18:50,885 --> 00:18:53,765 Speaker 3: you walked into the dressing room, all your names were 357 00:18:53,765 --> 00:18:57,845 Speaker 3: listed and then it would have your weight, and then 358 00:18:57,885 --> 00:19:00,685 Speaker 3: it would have areas you needed to work on, so 359 00:19:01,165 --> 00:19:04,365 Speaker 3: it might say hips and thighs, or it might say 360 00:19:05,165 --> 00:19:10,725 Speaker 3: belly and Susanne Mitchell is really the like incredible force 361 00:19:11,565 --> 00:19:14,045 Speaker 3: that makes them a machine in the seventies and eighties, 362 00:19:14,285 --> 00:19:16,085 Speaker 3: and she's so much a part of the story of 363 00:19:16,165 --> 00:19:19,085 Speaker 3: why they became the phenomenon that they did. But she 364 00:19:19,245 --> 00:19:22,965 Speaker 3: is also like she scares people. I mean, she would 365 00:19:23,045 --> 00:19:25,445 Speaker 3: go up to people and grab their ass and say 366 00:19:25,525 --> 00:19:28,885 Speaker 3: lose it. And you know, she would circle jelly rolls 367 00:19:29,005 --> 00:19:33,485 Speaker 3: on pictures and you know, basically everything that the poisoned 368 00:19:33,525 --> 00:19:36,965 Speaker 3: female Psyche does to itself on Instagram or when looking 369 00:19:36,965 --> 00:19:40,085 Speaker 3: in the mirror she's the physical embodiment of that. And 370 00:19:40,125 --> 00:19:41,885 Speaker 3: then the thing that's I think so painful about it 371 00:19:41,925 --> 00:19:44,125 Speaker 3: is that it's also public. When I heard that story 372 00:19:44,125 --> 00:19:46,565 Speaker 3: about the weightlist, I mean it just I was cringing 373 00:19:46,645 --> 00:19:49,645 Speaker 3: a million times. You know, I interviewed somebody. Her name 374 00:19:49,725 --> 00:19:52,645 Speaker 3: is Amber. She was a nineties cheerleader and also a 375 00:19:52,725 --> 00:19:55,725 Speaker 3: legacy cheerleader. Her mother had cheered as well. Her life 376 00:19:55,805 --> 00:19:58,765 Speaker 3: revolved around that weightlist. You know, when are they going 377 00:19:58,805 --> 00:20:00,605 Speaker 3: to weigh you? And then if on the days that 378 00:20:00,645 --> 00:20:02,445 Speaker 3: they're going to weigh you, you have to do all these tricks. 379 00:20:02,525 --> 00:20:05,805 Speaker 3: Like she would go running in a trash bag. Basically 380 00:20:05,845 --> 00:20:08,965 Speaker 3: they're not actual trash bags, they're like wrestling things. 381 00:20:09,365 --> 00:20:10,205 Speaker 1: And she'd go in the. 382 00:20:10,165 --> 00:20:12,645 Speaker 2: Texas heat to sweat. 383 00:20:12,405 --> 00:20:16,645 Speaker 3: Out, yeah, to sweat out all this water so that 384 00:20:16,725 --> 00:20:20,045 Speaker 3: she could make weight. And it's like make weight. Just 385 00:20:20,125 --> 00:20:23,485 Speaker 3: that idea is like, it's so wild and arbitrary. You know. 386 00:20:23,765 --> 00:20:26,005 Speaker 3: First of all, the weight stuff is the part that 387 00:20:26,045 --> 00:20:28,005 Speaker 3: I have the hardest time with in all of this, 388 00:20:28,605 --> 00:20:33,365 Speaker 3: because I know how much those girls starve themselves and 389 00:20:33,565 --> 00:20:36,605 Speaker 3: tweak their body, and I think they do it less 390 00:20:36,685 --> 00:20:41,325 Speaker 3: now because there isn't quite the scrutiny but I'm sorry. 391 00:20:41,365 --> 00:20:43,445 Speaker 3: There is still a scrutiny, and you see that in 392 00:20:43,485 --> 00:20:47,605 Speaker 3: the character of Victoria, who is somebody who one year 393 00:20:47,645 --> 00:20:50,525 Speaker 3: she's too heavy, the next year she's too thin. They 394 00:20:50,605 --> 00:20:52,765 Speaker 3: keep using these coated words. 395 00:20:52,525 --> 00:20:55,685 Speaker 1: Like fuel, fuel, and I'm like, what is fuel is? 396 00:20:55,685 --> 00:20:56,925 Speaker 1: She did she have a gas tank? 397 00:20:57,085 --> 00:20:59,445 Speaker 2: But in the Netflix show, it was interesting and it 398 00:20:59,565 --> 00:21:02,845 Speaker 2: was so obvious that you could almost say Judy and 399 00:21:02,885 --> 00:21:05,685 Speaker 2: particularly Kelly, it was almost like they were in a 400 00:21:05,725 --> 00:21:08,685 Speaker 2: hostage video because they just you knew what they wanted 401 00:21:08,725 --> 00:21:11,085 Speaker 2: to say, and you knew how careful they were being 402 00:21:11,805 --> 00:21:15,285 Speaker 2: about the coded way exactly as you said about fuel 403 00:21:15,525 --> 00:21:18,165 Speaker 2: and about you know, the only comments they would allow 404 00:21:18,205 --> 00:21:20,765 Speaker 2: to be broadcast was that saying one girl was too scrawny. 405 00:21:20,845 --> 00:21:24,285 Speaker 3: But you just knew, oh yeah, yeah, right, I know 406 00:21:24,445 --> 00:21:25,525 Speaker 3: she's not fueling. 407 00:21:25,165 --> 00:21:26,525 Speaker 2: Her she's not fueling herself. 408 00:21:26,765 --> 00:21:29,445 Speaker 3: You probably remember this moment where it's Judy and she's 409 00:21:29,485 --> 00:21:32,245 Speaker 3: talking about Victoria, and she's like, they're talking about how 410 00:21:32,245 --> 00:21:34,485 Speaker 3: her weight was up and down and how one year 411 00:21:34,525 --> 00:21:36,685 Speaker 3: her stamina was really bad, well probably because she was 412 00:21:36,765 --> 00:21:39,965 Speaker 3: starving herself. And instead of saying, oh, that's when she 413 00:21:39,965 --> 00:21:42,965 Speaker 3: had an eating disorder or whatever, she goes that's when 414 00:21:43,005 --> 00:21:45,405 Speaker 3: she was, and then there's this stop and she goes 415 00:21:46,365 --> 00:21:47,525 Speaker 3: on her journey to. 416 00:21:47,525 --> 00:21:51,285 Speaker 1: Health or something like that. It's something so comical. 417 00:21:51,805 --> 00:21:56,445 Speaker 3: I do sympathize with her because they have this panopticon. 418 00:21:56,765 --> 00:22:00,805 Speaker 3: Everything they're saying is going to be viewed a million times, 419 00:22:00,885 --> 00:22:03,565 Speaker 3: not just by this camera but by Netflix, but by 420 00:22:03,645 --> 00:22:07,365 Speaker 3: YouTube by the morning, you know, talk show people, so 421 00:22:07,485 --> 00:22:10,005 Speaker 3: they have that in the back of their mind. Interestingly, 422 00:22:10,045 --> 00:22:12,845 Speaker 3: I spoke to some male viewers of the show, and 423 00:22:12,885 --> 00:22:15,765 Speaker 3: the hardest part for them was the harsh critiques of 424 00:22:15,805 --> 00:22:16,565 Speaker 3: women's appearance. 425 00:22:17,805 --> 00:22:19,085 Speaker 1: They did not like it. 426 00:22:19,205 --> 00:22:20,005 Speaker 2: That's encouraging. 427 00:22:20,365 --> 00:22:23,085 Speaker 3: It made them very uncomfortable, and I think it's summoned. 428 00:22:23,205 --> 00:22:24,645 Speaker 3: First of all, they've been told not to do that, 429 00:22:24,685 --> 00:22:25,805 Speaker 3: so they're like, why are you doing that? 430 00:22:25,845 --> 00:22:26,685 Speaker 1: I'm told not to do that. 431 00:22:26,725 --> 00:22:29,165 Speaker 2: Well, it's become countercultural, right, God. 432 00:22:29,445 --> 00:22:31,845 Speaker 3: It summoned the part of them that felt very protective. 433 00:22:31,965 --> 00:22:35,245 Speaker 3: They were both fathers of daughters, and so it was 434 00:22:35,525 --> 00:22:36,445 Speaker 3: very uncomfortable. 435 00:22:36,765 --> 00:22:40,005 Speaker 1: But I defend that now. 436 00:22:40,045 --> 00:22:41,725 Speaker 3: I think there are ways that you do it, and 437 00:22:41,885 --> 00:22:43,765 Speaker 3: you can do it better and worse and stuff. But 438 00:22:43,845 --> 00:22:46,845 Speaker 3: I do think it is reasonable for them to have 439 00:22:47,085 --> 00:22:52,845 Speaker 3: very strict standards for both appearance and performance. I don't 440 00:22:52,845 --> 00:22:55,765 Speaker 3: think any of that is unreasonable. I may quibble about 441 00:22:55,765 --> 00:22:58,165 Speaker 3: how they go about it, but the idea that they 442 00:22:58,205 --> 00:23:01,165 Speaker 3: should just loosen up their standards, I mean, that's like saying, well, 443 00:23:01,245 --> 00:23:03,965 Speaker 3: you know, hey, the Navy Seals, Like, I mean, some 444 00:23:04,005 --> 00:23:05,845 Speaker 3: people can't do it. Why don't we just make it 445 00:23:05,885 --> 00:23:07,365 Speaker 3: a little easier for the Navy Seals. 446 00:23:07,485 --> 00:23:10,285 Speaker 2: Yeah, But Sarah, I guess the difference is that's about 447 00:23:10,285 --> 00:23:12,885 Speaker 2: what you can do, not how you look while you're 448 00:23:12,885 --> 00:23:14,765 Speaker 2: doing it. And of course they have the right to 449 00:23:14,845 --> 00:23:18,445 Speaker 2: decide whatever they want. But as our society has understood 450 00:23:18,485 --> 00:23:22,485 Speaker 2: the importance of diversity and inclusion and that having that 451 00:23:22,565 --> 00:23:26,085 Speaker 2: cookie cutter approach, Like, is there a reason that a 452 00:23:26,165 --> 00:23:30,325 Speaker 2: size twelve or even a size ten girl couldn't physically 453 00:23:30,365 --> 00:23:32,925 Speaker 2: do all of those things? There isn't. Really, that's just 454 00:23:33,005 --> 00:23:36,725 Speaker 2: an esthetic standard, that is tradition, or that is the. 455 00:23:36,685 --> 00:23:38,885 Speaker 3: Way they Yeah, I mean, I guess what I would 456 00:23:38,885 --> 00:23:41,445 Speaker 3: say is that they get to set the look of 457 00:23:41,525 --> 00:23:44,685 Speaker 3: their team, the same as any other business gets to 458 00:23:44,725 --> 00:23:47,285 Speaker 3: set the look of their team. Now, there are professional 459 00:23:47,325 --> 00:23:51,365 Speaker 3: cheerleading squads that have diversified in size, so the classic 460 00:23:51,445 --> 00:23:53,885 Speaker 3: look of the Dallas Coupboys cheerleaders is basically your fifties 461 00:23:53,965 --> 00:23:54,765 Speaker 3: sixties pin up. 462 00:23:55,365 --> 00:23:59,965 Speaker 1: It's going to be a long leg, a very narrow waist, and. 463 00:24:00,125 --> 00:24:02,645 Speaker 2: Flat, flat, flat stomach. That's what I couldn't stop looking 464 00:24:02,685 --> 00:24:05,445 Speaker 2: at that, from the belly button down into their shorts 465 00:24:05,445 --> 00:24:09,125 Speaker 2: to the pubic bone, just like almost concave. Did girls 466 00:24:09,125 --> 00:24:11,005 Speaker 2: get foot putting on white? Do they? Still? 467 00:24:11,365 --> 00:24:12,005 Speaker 1: I'm sure they do. 468 00:24:12,325 --> 00:24:17,085 Speaker 3: They've become very mysterious about how they handle this. I 469 00:24:17,085 --> 00:24:20,685 Speaker 3: mean again, no, they don't get cut for weight. They 470 00:24:20,685 --> 00:24:22,445 Speaker 3: get cut for not fueling properly. 471 00:24:22,525 --> 00:24:24,045 Speaker 2: I'm not having at ditamina. 472 00:24:24,405 --> 00:24:26,845 Speaker 3: They don't have the right nutrition journey. And I'm not 473 00:24:26,885 --> 00:24:29,005 Speaker 3: sure what you mean there on the help of course, 474 00:24:29,085 --> 00:24:31,565 Speaker 3: yeah they do. And I wanted to circle back to 475 00:24:31,565 --> 00:24:33,165 Speaker 3: one point you made, which I thought was a really 476 00:24:33,205 --> 00:24:36,205 Speaker 3: good one, But I want to like fine tune it slightly, 477 00:24:36,205 --> 00:24:38,445 Speaker 3: which is the idea that you know in the Navy 478 00:24:38,485 --> 00:24:42,285 Speaker 3: Seals or maybe in football itself, like these are things 479 00:24:42,325 --> 00:24:44,805 Speaker 3: that you can improve upon yourself. 480 00:24:44,845 --> 00:24:47,525 Speaker 1: They're not about your appearance. But I just I don't 481 00:24:47,525 --> 00:24:49,445 Speaker 1: think that's true. I don't think there are things. 482 00:24:49,445 --> 00:24:52,165 Speaker 3: I think there are genetic gifts that Navy Seals and 483 00:24:52,165 --> 00:24:55,045 Speaker 3: football players have that nobody else can have. It's out 484 00:24:55,085 --> 00:24:57,045 Speaker 3: of your hands whether or not you're able to throw 485 00:24:57,085 --> 00:25:00,125 Speaker 3: a fifty yard spiral. You could try and try and try. 486 00:25:00,405 --> 00:25:04,325 Speaker 3: The American dream was always that you can become whatever 487 00:25:04,365 --> 00:25:07,045 Speaker 3: you want to be, and when you have a meritocratic 488 00:25:07,085 --> 00:25:10,805 Speaker 3: system like this, with very very eleat standards, it flies 489 00:25:10,805 --> 00:25:12,125 Speaker 3: in the face of that. And that's going to make 490 00:25:12,125 --> 00:25:14,565 Speaker 3: a lot of people mad. And I really understand that, 491 00:25:14,885 --> 00:25:17,005 Speaker 3: and I think a lot of people think it's not fair, 492 00:25:17,285 --> 00:25:18,245 Speaker 3: and I think that's true. 493 00:25:18,285 --> 00:25:19,005 Speaker 1: It's not fair. 494 00:25:19,245 --> 00:25:20,845 Speaker 3: I also think there's a lot of things in life 495 00:25:20,885 --> 00:25:24,165 Speaker 3: that are not fair, and so I defend them getting 496 00:25:24,205 --> 00:25:27,245 Speaker 3: to set the standards where they are within the limits 497 00:25:27,245 --> 00:25:29,845 Speaker 3: of the law. I think in the twenty first century, 498 00:25:29,885 --> 00:25:33,165 Speaker 3: they have finally brought the idea of eating disorders into 499 00:25:33,245 --> 00:25:35,445 Speaker 3: the conversation and they talk about it. They might not 500 00:25:35,485 --> 00:25:37,725 Speaker 3: talk about it with the camera rolling, but I think 501 00:25:37,765 --> 00:25:40,445 Speaker 3: it's a discussion. They know that that's not good. I 502 00:25:40,485 --> 00:25:42,445 Speaker 3: think back in the day, they were dieting tips in 503 00:25:42,485 --> 00:25:44,845 Speaker 3: the rule book that were like suck on ice, like 504 00:25:44,925 --> 00:25:47,645 Speaker 3: literally like if you're hungry, suck on ice. I mean, 505 00:25:48,045 --> 00:25:50,605 Speaker 3: crazy stuff. What was some of the other rules that 506 00:25:50,725 --> 00:25:53,205 Speaker 3: made Jo Joe hit the flow. You could do a 507 00:25:53,285 --> 00:25:55,485 Speaker 3: whole episode on that. I have a rule book from 508 00:25:55,485 --> 00:25:59,725 Speaker 3: the nineties and it is so wild. One of the 509 00:25:59,725 --> 00:26:02,885 Speaker 3: things that strikes me it has these talking points for 510 00:26:02,965 --> 00:26:06,965 Speaker 3: when you talk to press, and so one of the 511 00:26:07,005 --> 00:26:11,485 Speaker 3: questions is are the cheerleaders exploited? And the answer is 512 00:26:11,605 --> 00:26:15,805 Speaker 3: just no. And then one of the questions is do 513 00:26:15,885 --> 00:26:18,285 Speaker 3: you ever feel exploited by the uniform? You have like 514 00:26:18,325 --> 00:26:20,805 Speaker 3: a couple different answers. One is it's an honor to 515 00:26:20,805 --> 00:26:25,725 Speaker 3: wear the uniform, and another answer is I never feel sexy. 516 00:26:25,965 --> 00:26:28,325 Speaker 3: I feel like it's patriotic or something like that. I 517 00:26:28,365 --> 00:26:31,445 Speaker 3: can't remember what it is. What's interesting is that those 518 00:26:31,485 --> 00:26:34,805 Speaker 3: talking points have so thoroughly infiltrated the culture that even 519 00:26:34,805 --> 00:26:37,605 Speaker 3: though I don't think they give those talking points out anymore, 520 00:26:37,765 --> 00:26:42,125 Speaker 3: they don't have to because the older generation basically mirrors 521 00:26:42,205 --> 00:26:44,845 Speaker 3: for the younger generation. This is how you speak. One 522 00:26:44,885 --> 00:26:49,285 Speaker 3: of the really interesting cognitive disconnects in the cheerleader mindset 523 00:26:49,365 --> 00:26:51,805 Speaker 3: for me when I met them was that I kept 524 00:26:51,845 --> 00:26:54,085 Speaker 3: asking them about the sexiness of the uniform and they 525 00:26:54,165 --> 00:26:56,205 Speaker 3: kept saying it's not sexy, and I was like, what 526 00:26:56,205 --> 00:26:58,485 Speaker 3: do you mean it's not sexy. And they were like, no, 527 00:26:58,565 --> 00:27:00,845 Speaker 3: it's like a bathing suit. And I'm like, okay, yeah, right, 528 00:27:00,885 --> 00:27:03,405 Speaker 3: well bathing suits are sexy and they were like, I 529 00:27:03,485 --> 00:27:05,405 Speaker 3: just don't think it is. It's like it's like a 530 00:27:05,405 --> 00:27:08,685 Speaker 3: Wonder Woman costume. To me, what we were getting into 531 00:27:08,725 --> 00:27:11,965 Speaker 3: at that point, the twenty first century cheerleaders is you're 532 00:27:12,005 --> 00:27:16,765 Speaker 3: getting into a world where so much about our culture 533 00:27:17,485 --> 00:27:21,005 Speaker 3: is kind of sexified and amplified in that way. 534 00:27:21,245 --> 00:27:23,645 Speaker 2: It's the air they breathe. Yeah, we all breathe. 535 00:27:23,765 --> 00:27:27,965 Speaker 3: It has been removed of what it signals to them, 536 00:27:28,445 --> 00:27:31,765 Speaker 3: you know. And there's also, I think a good Christian 537 00:27:31,805 --> 00:27:35,045 Speaker 3: woman or a good Southern woman or a good sorority 538 00:27:35,085 --> 00:27:40,445 Speaker 3: girls or whatever, reluctance to embrace sexuality. So it's this 539 00:27:40,725 --> 00:27:44,245 Speaker 3: very funny thing where you exude sexuality but you don't 540 00:27:44,965 --> 00:27:46,725 Speaker 3: embody it off the field. 541 00:27:46,765 --> 00:27:48,605 Speaker 2: But you still have to be a fantasy. Like one 542 00:27:48,605 --> 00:27:50,285 Speaker 2: of the things I thought was interesting is this idea 543 00:27:50,285 --> 00:27:52,685 Speaker 2: that they have to remove their wedding rings and they 544 00:27:52,725 --> 00:27:57,005 Speaker 2: can't be in public with their boyfriends or their husbands 545 00:27:57,085 --> 00:28:01,565 Speaker 2: or their girlfriends. So it's like they're sexy but not sexual. 546 00:28:02,085 --> 00:28:03,085 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so funny. 547 00:28:03,125 --> 00:28:06,365 Speaker 3: I mean, it reminds me of boy bands, you know, 548 00:28:06,525 --> 00:28:09,525 Speaker 3: boy bands and pop starlits, like they always had to 549 00:28:09,805 --> 00:28:13,325 Speaker 3: lie about, like back when the glossy magazines were still 550 00:28:13,325 --> 00:28:16,685 Speaker 3: in control of the narrative. They had to lie about like, 551 00:28:16,765 --> 00:28:19,445 Speaker 3: oh no, I don't have a girlfriend, I'm mostly looking 552 00:28:19,445 --> 00:28:22,645 Speaker 3: for a normal girl. The idea was that you will 553 00:28:22,685 --> 00:28:26,405 Speaker 3: be more marketable, you will be more popular if the 554 00:28:26,605 --> 00:28:30,965 Speaker 3: girl looking from her bedroom at your portrait on her 555 00:28:31,045 --> 00:28:34,965 Speaker 3: wall can imagine that she will one day be your girlfriend, wife, whatever. 556 00:28:35,845 --> 00:28:39,085 Speaker 3: And the cheerleaders are like that as well. They have 557 00:28:39,165 --> 00:28:41,845 Speaker 3: to cover any tattoos. It used to be tattoos were 558 00:28:41,885 --> 00:28:46,125 Speaker 3: like an absolute verboten, but now they're so popular they 559 00:28:46,165 --> 00:28:48,805 Speaker 3: can't outlaw them entirely, so you have to cover them 560 00:28:48,805 --> 00:28:51,965 Speaker 3: with like a little patch. No jewelry, I mean, look, 561 00:28:52,205 --> 00:28:55,205 Speaker 3: no identifying features. Here's the thing that I think is 562 00:28:55,285 --> 00:28:59,285 Speaker 3: so anathema to the modern mindset. You are not an individual. 563 00:28:59,925 --> 00:29:04,405 Speaker 3: It is not about you. It is about the Dallas 564 00:29:04,405 --> 00:29:05,365 Speaker 3: Cowboys cheerleaders. 565 00:29:05,645 --> 00:29:08,165 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're part of a group. You're a pace of 566 00:29:08,205 --> 00:29:12,405 Speaker 2: that puzzle. And saw that when the legacy cheerleaders came back, 567 00:29:12,445 --> 00:29:15,365 Speaker 2: the former cheerleaders came back. That's what was so moving 568 00:29:15,405 --> 00:29:17,565 Speaker 2: to me about it is the friendship and the because 569 00:29:17,685 --> 00:29:20,245 Speaker 2: from the outside you would think, oh, they must be 570 00:29:20,285 --> 00:29:23,765 Speaker 2: really bitchy. Yeah, but it's the opposite, like part of 571 00:29:23,805 --> 00:29:26,245 Speaker 2: why they all love doing it so much. And that's 572 00:29:26,325 --> 00:29:29,325 Speaker 2: made clear. It's not just you know in the rule 573 00:29:29,325 --> 00:29:32,045 Speaker 2: book to say it these that's feeling of sorority, that 574 00:29:32,085 --> 00:29:34,605 Speaker 2: feeling of sisterhood and doing it with your friends. 575 00:29:35,245 --> 00:29:38,005 Speaker 3: I was very skeptical of that for a very long time, 576 00:29:38,045 --> 00:29:40,885 Speaker 3: and I kept pushing in on all the sides, trying 577 00:29:40,925 --> 00:29:43,685 Speaker 3: to find like, I'm sure this is not true. And 578 00:29:43,885 --> 00:29:47,525 Speaker 3: just like cheerleaders dating players, yes, of course, has there 579 00:29:47,525 --> 00:29:50,365 Speaker 3: been bitterly on the squad? Absolutely, one hundred percent. 580 00:29:50,485 --> 00:29:53,245 Speaker 2: Does it still happen to any of the DCC date players? 581 00:29:53,245 --> 00:29:55,405 Speaker 2: And if you get caught, do you get caught? You 582 00:29:55,525 --> 00:29:57,765 Speaker 2: mentioned nonsense before? What kind of nonsense? 583 00:29:58,325 --> 00:30:01,205 Speaker 3: So in the seventies before Susanne Mitchell takes over, and 584 00:30:01,245 --> 00:30:02,805 Speaker 3: part of why she has to take over and the 585 00:30:02,845 --> 00:30:05,085 Speaker 3: way that she does is that the team was on 586 00:30:05,205 --> 00:30:08,365 Speaker 3: such a winning streak. The cheerleaders were such hot shit 587 00:30:08,525 --> 00:30:10,565 Speaker 3: and they were all all going out with the players. 588 00:30:10,885 --> 00:30:13,725 Speaker 3: They were all doing drugs. Sorry, ladies, I know you're 589 00:30:13,765 --> 00:30:15,765 Speaker 3: my friend. I love the seventies cheerleaders, but there was 590 00:30:15,805 --> 00:30:17,445 Speaker 3: a lot of drugs on that team. There was a 591 00:30:17,485 --> 00:30:20,725 Speaker 3: cocaine time, you know, and so there was just a 592 00:30:20,765 --> 00:30:24,485 Speaker 3: lot of craziness. And she comes in and like absolutely 593 00:30:24,765 --> 00:30:28,565 Speaker 3: throws down the law and it's no more of that. 594 00:30:28,765 --> 00:30:30,965 Speaker 3: It's no more, mister nice guy. And also you're gonna 595 00:30:30,965 --> 00:30:32,725 Speaker 3: get weighed every week, and da da da da. But 596 00:30:32,805 --> 00:30:36,125 Speaker 3: scroll forward to Jerry Jones. I mean, there's a story 597 00:30:36,405 --> 00:30:39,125 Speaker 3: about Troy Aikman wanting to date a cheerleader. He had 598 00:30:39,125 --> 00:30:42,085 Speaker 3: a crush on one of the cover of the Swimsuit 599 00:30:42,125 --> 00:30:44,845 Speaker 3: calendar Cheerleader, and he goes to Jerry Jones and Jerry 600 00:30:44,885 --> 00:30:46,965 Speaker 3: Jones is like, yeah, I don't care, that's fine. So 601 00:30:47,045 --> 00:30:51,325 Speaker 3: he goes to the cheerleaders and they're like, well, that's 602 00:30:51,365 --> 00:30:54,485 Speaker 3: not okay with us, Like, you can't do that. You know, 603 00:30:54,525 --> 00:30:58,365 Speaker 3: it's our tradition, not because now we've gone from Tom 604 00:30:58,485 --> 00:31:00,805 Speaker 3: Landry is instituting it so the wives don't get mad. 605 00:31:01,285 --> 00:31:04,325 Speaker 3: But twenty years later, it's like it's become such a 606 00:31:04,365 --> 00:31:06,325 Speaker 3: tradition that the women are like, don't do. 607 00:31:06,325 --> 00:31:06,925 Speaker 1: This to us. 608 00:31:07,045 --> 00:31:09,245 Speaker 2: They're enforcing those standards. 609 00:31:08,725 --> 00:31:10,605 Speaker 3: To the people in charge. One of them is Kelly 610 00:31:10,645 --> 00:31:13,365 Speaker 3: fin Glass, who's still in charge. She goes to this 611 00:31:13,485 --> 00:31:15,445 Speaker 3: young cheerleader and she says, well, you're gonna have to 612 00:31:15,565 --> 00:31:19,525 Speaker 3: choose Troy Aikman are the cheerleaders, And the young woman 613 00:31:19,565 --> 00:31:24,125 Speaker 3: says bye, and she chooses Troy Aikman. She had to 614 00:31:24,165 --> 00:31:28,405 Speaker 3: leave the cheerleaders. Meanwhile, Troy could have continued to date her. 615 00:31:28,765 --> 00:31:33,525 Speaker 3: I suspectated some other cheerleaders. It's this weird double standard again. 616 00:31:33,645 --> 00:31:36,885 Speaker 3: This is the enforcement of women. Like women, keeping other 617 00:31:36,925 --> 00:31:41,565 Speaker 3: women in line can sometimes be like the most ferocious penalties. 618 00:31:41,805 --> 00:31:45,085 Speaker 3: But that's why, by the way, those cheerleaders are all 619 00:31:45,085 --> 00:31:48,045 Speaker 3: super tight, because they are in the fox hole together. 620 00:31:48,725 --> 00:31:52,245 Speaker 3: All those cheerleaders come into a very high pressure experience 621 00:31:52,285 --> 00:31:56,245 Speaker 3: that only they understand, and they are living in fear 622 00:31:57,045 --> 00:32:00,245 Speaker 3: of the two women that determine their fate on that team, 623 00:32:00,405 --> 00:32:02,845 Speaker 3: Kelly and Jude, and nobody wants to break ranks, and 624 00:32:02,885 --> 00:32:05,845 Speaker 3: they end up like loving each other and having this 625 00:32:05,965 --> 00:32:07,245 Speaker 3: incredible closeness. 626 00:32:07,885 --> 00:32:11,565 Speaker 2: More of my conversations about the DCC with Sarah Heppler 627 00:32:11,805 --> 00:32:21,445 Speaker 2: after this break. I want to ask you about pay. 628 00:32:22,085 --> 00:32:24,845 Speaker 2: What do they get paid and is it even legal? 629 00:32:25,165 --> 00:32:28,765 Speaker 3: They don't like to say what they pay. Our best reporting, 630 00:32:29,085 --> 00:32:32,005 Speaker 3: which was done by a Dallas reporter name Paige Skinner, 631 00:32:32,445 --> 00:32:35,205 Speaker 3: is that they get paid now four hundred dollars a 632 00:32:35,245 --> 00:32:39,925 Speaker 3: game plus hourly wages. And that is a very far 633 00:32:40,045 --> 00:32:44,085 Speaker 3: cry from what they paid into the nineties, which was 634 00:32:44,725 --> 00:32:48,205 Speaker 3: fifteen dollars a game. And when I say fifteen dollars 635 00:32:48,245 --> 00:32:51,685 Speaker 3: a game, you're thinking, did she say fifteen dollars an hour? 636 00:32:51,765 --> 00:32:54,765 Speaker 3: And I misheard her? Yeah, did she say one hundred 637 00:32:54,765 --> 00:32:55,765 Speaker 3: and fifty dollars a game? 638 00:32:55,805 --> 00:32:57,725 Speaker 2: No, fifteen thousand dollars a game? Did she say? 639 00:32:57,725 --> 00:33:00,725 Speaker 1: Did she say fifteen thousand dollars aa? No, it's fifteen 640 00:33:01,165 --> 00:33:02,405 Speaker 1: bucks a game. 641 00:33:02,525 --> 00:33:05,445 Speaker 2: And what is a game day? Like? That's like twelve hours, 642 00:33:05,485 --> 00:33:06,805 Speaker 2: fourteen hours of work? 643 00:33:07,005 --> 00:33:09,125 Speaker 3: You know when you consider that you have to put 644 00:33:09,165 --> 00:33:11,725 Speaker 3: on your makeup, you've got to do your hair, You've 645 00:33:11,765 --> 00:33:14,365 Speaker 3: got to like get stretched out, you got to get 646 00:33:14,365 --> 00:33:16,925 Speaker 3: to the stadium three hours early in the game itself 647 00:33:17,005 --> 00:33:19,605 Speaker 3: is three hours. Then you've got to meet with fans. 648 00:33:19,645 --> 00:33:23,245 Speaker 3: I mean these are entire days. So that's fifteen dollars. 649 00:33:23,525 --> 00:33:27,565 Speaker 3: This pay rate stays into the nineties, which is stunning 650 00:33:27,605 --> 00:33:30,085 Speaker 3: to me, and then it goes up to fifty thanks, 651 00:33:30,445 --> 00:33:32,765 Speaker 3: and then it goes up to two hundred at some point, 652 00:33:33,245 --> 00:33:37,165 Speaker 3: and then the lawsuits start happening. So the other question 653 00:33:37,285 --> 00:33:40,165 Speaker 3: you had was how is this legal? I actually think 654 00:33:40,205 --> 00:33:43,565 Speaker 3: it has not been historically. In our last episode, we 655 00:33:43,605 --> 00:33:46,405 Speaker 3: brought an employment lawyer on to kind of dissect a 656 00:33:46,485 --> 00:33:48,885 Speaker 3: contract that we were looking at. And I don't want 657 00:33:48,885 --> 00:33:51,085 Speaker 3: to get too far into the weeds here, but basically, 658 00:33:51,125 --> 00:33:55,285 Speaker 3: with any business practice, you either have independent contractors in 659 00:33:55,325 --> 00:33:57,805 Speaker 3: which case you don't have to pay them in a wage, 660 00:33:58,245 --> 00:34:00,245 Speaker 3: but you can't tell them what to do or where 661 00:34:00,245 --> 00:34:03,605 Speaker 3: to go, you don't have control over them, or you 662 00:34:03,685 --> 00:34:06,325 Speaker 3: have employees where you get to do all those things. 663 00:34:06,365 --> 00:34:08,085 Speaker 3: You can tell them standards. You know, you've got to 664 00:34:08,085 --> 00:34:10,005 Speaker 3: wear this uniform, you got to be at this time, 665 00:34:10,525 --> 00:34:13,685 Speaker 3: but you have to pay them a minimum wage. It's 666 00:34:13,725 --> 00:34:16,005 Speaker 3: got to work out to an hourly minimum wage based 667 00:34:16,005 --> 00:34:19,605 Speaker 3: on the Fair Labor Standards Act. Well, none of the 668 00:34:19,725 --> 00:34:22,605 Speaker 3: NFL teams were doing that when it came to their cheerleaders, 669 00:34:22,845 --> 00:34:25,645 Speaker 3: and it kickstarted a series of lawsuits beginning in twenty 670 00:34:25,685 --> 00:34:28,725 Speaker 3: thirteen with the Oakland Raiders. That was a class action 671 00:34:28,805 --> 00:34:31,205 Speaker 3: lawsuit that they won. They won a big settlement for that, 672 00:34:31,805 --> 00:34:35,405 Speaker 3: and it started to move like a wave over all 673 00:34:35,485 --> 00:34:39,725 Speaker 3: the professional squads over the next four or five six years. 674 00:34:40,245 --> 00:34:43,925 Speaker 3: But it didn't come without consequences. Pushing back about the 675 00:34:43,965 --> 00:34:48,165 Speaker 3: pay issue sometimes just made the team itself go, this 676 00:34:48,245 --> 00:34:50,805 Speaker 3: is too much work. Forget it. We're shutting the cheerleaders down. 677 00:34:51,205 --> 00:34:54,885 Speaker 3: So by advocating for themselves, sometimes the cheerleaders lost their 678 00:34:54,965 --> 00:34:57,885 Speaker 3: jobs and it became a very tricky thing. 679 00:34:58,245 --> 00:35:00,325 Speaker 2: I imagine that though would have probably been put under 680 00:35:00,325 --> 00:35:02,645 Speaker 2: a lot of pressure by the other cheerleaders about disloyalty. 681 00:35:02,645 --> 00:35:06,605 Speaker 2: Don't rock the boat. We're just grateful to Bahia. 682 00:35:05,725 --> 00:35:06,565 Speaker 1: Absolutely so. 683 00:35:06,645 --> 00:35:11,325 Speaker 3: In twenty eighteen, I believe a cheerleader named Erica Wilkins 684 00:35:11,405 --> 00:35:14,685 Speaker 3: files a wage discrimination suit against the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders. 685 00:35:14,885 --> 00:35:17,365 Speaker 3: She files it as a class action suit, meaning she 686 00:35:17,645 --> 00:35:21,645 Speaker 3: wanted other cheerleaders to join her, but they don't. They 687 00:35:21,685 --> 00:35:26,005 Speaker 3: circled the wagons on social media. The roar from the 688 00:35:26,045 --> 00:35:29,245 Speaker 3: Cowboys camp itself was just basically like, hey, look, you 689 00:35:29,325 --> 00:35:32,645 Speaker 3: knew what you were getting into, and she did. But 690 00:35:33,005 --> 00:35:35,805 Speaker 3: one of the things that I think cheerleaders, and I 691 00:35:35,805 --> 00:35:38,045 Speaker 3: think this Netflix series makes a lot more clear, and 692 00:35:38,085 --> 00:35:40,485 Speaker 3: I'm really happy about that, is I think when people 693 00:35:40,525 --> 00:35:42,885 Speaker 3: first heard about the pay issue, maybe they were outraged, 694 00:35:42,885 --> 00:35:44,405 Speaker 3: maybe they weren't, but I don't think they had any 695 00:35:44,405 --> 00:35:46,565 Speaker 3: sense at all what cheerleading involved. I don't think they 696 00:35:46,645 --> 00:35:49,645 Speaker 3: understood how rigorous it was, how demanding the tit to 697 00:35:49,725 --> 00:35:54,125 Speaker 3: these women, how many injuries they have, and the injuries 698 00:35:54,205 --> 00:35:56,365 Speaker 3: part of it was on the download for a really 699 00:35:56,445 --> 00:35:59,405 Speaker 3: long time. I mean, I was very glad that Greg 700 00:35:59,445 --> 00:36:01,685 Speaker 3: included that. I mean, you get this sense through this 701 00:36:01,725 --> 00:36:05,285 Speaker 3: one cheerleader, Caroline, Yeah, yeah, Caroline. They do these jump 702 00:36:05,325 --> 00:36:10,605 Speaker 3: splits and they are really tough on your and it's 703 00:36:10,605 --> 00:36:12,645 Speaker 3: not just that it's the hair whipping. There's all sorts 704 00:36:12,685 --> 00:36:15,085 Speaker 3: of like neck and back. You know, they have to 705 00:36:15,125 --> 00:36:18,765 Speaker 3: like put their bodies out, so there are injuries that 706 00:36:18,845 --> 00:36:22,725 Speaker 3: are sustained. And you know, it's this interesting thing. It's 707 00:36:22,765 --> 00:36:26,045 Speaker 3: the same problem with football, where there is concussions, there 708 00:36:26,085 --> 00:36:29,565 Speaker 3: are these injuries. In the football player's case, they're getting 709 00:36:29,605 --> 00:36:32,565 Speaker 3: paid sometimes big money, not always. I mean, you'd be 710 00:36:32,605 --> 00:36:35,565 Speaker 3: surprised how like low men on the totem pole in 711 00:36:35,605 --> 00:36:38,525 Speaker 3: football they don't get that much. But let's say it's 712 00:36:38,525 --> 00:36:40,565 Speaker 3: still held a lot more than four hundred dollars a game. 713 00:36:40,885 --> 00:36:45,205 Speaker 3: Should they be allowed to make a bad decision for themselves. Basically, 714 00:36:45,285 --> 00:36:48,125 Speaker 3: I don't care about the concussions. I want to still 715 00:36:48,125 --> 00:36:51,525 Speaker 3: play this game. Well, I think as a general rule, 716 00:36:51,525 --> 00:36:53,725 Speaker 3: we've kind of said, yeah, okay, the concussion thing came out. 717 00:36:53,765 --> 00:36:54,925 Speaker 3: It was supposed to shut down football. 718 00:36:54,925 --> 00:36:56,245 Speaker 1: It didn't. Football only got bigger. 719 00:36:56,325 --> 00:36:58,645 Speaker 2: The women don't even get health insurance. The cheerleaders don't 720 00:36:58,645 --> 00:36:59,645 Speaker 2: even get health insurance. 721 00:36:59,725 --> 00:37:02,125 Speaker 3: Absolutely not. They don't get health insurance. No. And the 722 00:37:02,325 --> 00:37:07,205 Speaker 3: stories I wish we could tell, if cheerleaders would tell them, 723 00:37:07,245 --> 00:37:09,685 Speaker 3: but I think they're sensitive about it because the brand 724 00:37:09,805 --> 00:37:12,645 Speaker 3: was always trying to project an image of perfection. 725 00:37:13,525 --> 00:37:15,285 Speaker 1: Is the cheerleaders. 726 00:37:14,765 --> 00:37:19,365 Speaker 3: Throughout the nineties and oughts and teens, you know, selling 727 00:37:19,365 --> 00:37:22,445 Speaker 3: some of their free products just to make rent, going 728 00:37:22,485 --> 00:37:26,965 Speaker 3: without insurance, sleeping in their car during training camp. This 729 00:37:27,085 --> 00:37:30,165 Speaker 3: Netflix series, the cheerleaders that we meet stay at the Gaylord, Texan, 730 00:37:30,205 --> 00:37:33,765 Speaker 3: which is like a luxury hotel in Grapevine. Well, that's 731 00:37:33,765 --> 00:37:36,125 Speaker 3: a new thing that they're doing. They didn't used to 732 00:37:36,165 --> 00:37:37,725 Speaker 3: put people up at the Gay Lord. I don't know 733 00:37:37,725 --> 00:37:40,405 Speaker 3: if that's just for Netflix. I have no idea, but 734 00:37:40,445 --> 00:37:42,765 Speaker 3: all I can tell you is that for a long time, 735 00:37:43,005 --> 00:37:45,965 Speaker 3: the cheerleaders had a one to two month training camp 736 00:37:45,965 --> 00:37:48,965 Speaker 3: that paid nothing, and they had to just figure out 737 00:37:49,205 --> 00:37:50,845 Speaker 3: how they were going to pay for themselves. And some 738 00:37:50,845 --> 00:37:52,685 Speaker 3: of these people don't live in Dallas. 739 00:37:52,365 --> 00:37:53,805 Speaker 2: Just for their sloping on couches. 740 00:37:54,005 --> 00:37:57,165 Speaker 3: They're sleeping in cars, they're sleeping in parking lots. I mean, 741 00:37:57,405 --> 00:38:01,245 Speaker 3: there are crazy stories. They're crazy stories, especially during those 742 00:38:01,325 --> 00:38:03,965 Speaker 3: nineties Go go years where they're winning Super Bowls and 743 00:38:04,045 --> 00:38:06,965 Speaker 3: those cheerleaders are stepping out of a limousine on the 744 00:38:06,965 --> 00:38:10,245 Speaker 3: Super Bowl field and they're going home and they can't 745 00:38:10,245 --> 00:38:12,965 Speaker 3: pay for their own surgeries and health insurance and they 746 00:38:13,005 --> 00:38:16,125 Speaker 3: have to borrow money. So that is the contrast that 747 00:38:16,205 --> 00:38:19,325 Speaker 3: I wish we would see more of. Not because I 748 00:38:19,365 --> 00:38:22,405 Speaker 3: want to embarrass anybody. I don't think they should be embarrassed. 749 00:38:22,565 --> 00:38:26,085 Speaker 3: I think those are stories about survivors, scrappers, people that 750 00:38:26,245 --> 00:38:27,645 Speaker 3: made that exploitation. 751 00:38:27,925 --> 00:38:30,845 Speaker 2: Because the clubs making millions of dollars literally off their 752 00:38:30,845 --> 00:38:32,285 Speaker 2: backs and their booties. 753 00:38:32,165 --> 00:38:35,205 Speaker 3: The cowboys should be embarrassed. They still don't pay them 754 00:38:35,245 --> 00:38:37,725 Speaker 3: a living wage. I believe that they could be pioneers 755 00:38:37,725 --> 00:38:40,925 Speaker 3: in the industry. It is completely within their ability to 756 00:38:40,965 --> 00:38:43,325 Speaker 3: do this. They have just dug in their heels on this. 757 00:38:43,725 --> 00:38:47,045 Speaker 3: But the thing is is they could set the trend, 758 00:38:47,245 --> 00:38:50,085 Speaker 3: but what they've done over the last fifty years is 759 00:38:50,125 --> 00:38:54,565 Speaker 3: to basically tarnish and embarrass their own organization for how 760 00:38:54,605 --> 00:38:57,485 Speaker 3: poorly they have paid and treated the cheerleaders. Now, a 761 00:38:57,525 --> 00:38:59,765 Speaker 3: separate issue is that the cheerleaders have often said I 762 00:38:59,765 --> 00:39:02,845 Speaker 3: would do it for free, fair and fine. That is 763 00:39:02,885 --> 00:39:06,805 Speaker 3: still not your legal obligation under the law. They should 764 00:39:06,845 --> 00:39:08,125 Speaker 3: still be paying them more. 765 00:39:08,285 --> 00:39:11,365 Speaker 2: I believe Lone range there and I hope they are 766 00:39:11,405 --> 00:39:14,565 Speaker 2: shamed by the next season. One of the things I 767 00:39:14,645 --> 00:39:18,285 Speaker 2: learned about in your podcast was the Australian Dallas Cowboy cheerleader. 768 00:39:18,565 --> 00:39:20,925 Speaker 2: Tell me about Janelle Janelle. 769 00:39:21,605 --> 00:39:25,365 Speaker 3: She became very obsessed with the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders. She 770 00:39:25,685 --> 00:39:26,885 Speaker 3: packed up her bags. 771 00:39:26,925 --> 00:39:29,045 Speaker 1: I mean, this is wild to me. 772 00:39:29,245 --> 00:39:31,085 Speaker 3: Back in the day, it was crazy if you came 773 00:39:31,125 --> 00:39:34,565 Speaker 3: from Oklahoma to Dallas for the training camp. She came 774 00:39:34,605 --> 00:39:40,325 Speaker 3: from Australia and lands in Dallas and tries out for 775 00:39:40,365 --> 00:39:43,405 Speaker 3: the team. And I think she makes it, but by 776 00:39:43,485 --> 00:39:46,405 Speaker 3: like the skin of her teeth, because she's one that 777 00:39:46,525 --> 00:39:49,005 Speaker 3: didn't have enough nutrition. They kept telling her she was 778 00:39:49,045 --> 00:39:51,645 Speaker 3: too skinny, and then they see her on the jumbo 779 00:39:51,725 --> 00:39:54,525 Speaker 3: tron and they really like it. But you know, Janelle's 780 00:39:54,565 --> 00:39:58,165 Speaker 3: a very interesting story too, because she's on the squad 781 00:39:58,205 --> 00:40:01,965 Speaker 3: for five years. She's a cheerleader favorite. But and this 782 00:40:02,125 --> 00:40:04,885 Speaker 3: is the story that is so interesting because there's always 783 00:40:04,925 --> 00:40:08,845 Speaker 3: been a very strict no fraternization with any of the 784 00:40:08,885 --> 00:40:13,725 Speaker 3: star but she starts dating Kelly's assistant, who was a woman, 785 00:40:14,445 --> 00:40:19,365 Speaker 3: and when it's revealed Kelly who is not. I mean 786 00:40:19,405 --> 00:40:21,405 Speaker 3: you can get a sense of her through this show, 787 00:40:21,485 --> 00:40:24,565 Speaker 3: like that woman can be tough. She is a tough 788 00:40:24,925 --> 00:40:28,165 Speaker 3: bitch when she wants to be. She loves this story. 789 00:40:28,205 --> 00:40:30,885 Speaker 3: She uses it on social media to tell a love 790 00:40:30,965 --> 00:40:35,165 Speaker 3: story about a different generation of cheerleaders. You know, there 791 00:40:35,245 --> 00:40:39,005 Speaker 3: was a time when it was unthinkable that a cheerleader 792 00:40:39,045 --> 00:40:42,445 Speaker 3: would date or marry a woman, and now it's just 793 00:40:42,565 --> 00:40:44,405 Speaker 3: another way of being a cheerleader. 794 00:40:44,685 --> 00:40:49,285 Speaker 2: That's a lovely story. Sarah, thank you so much. See 795 00:40:49,285 --> 00:40:52,005 Speaker 2: I told you she was the expert. She's like a 796 00:40:52,125 --> 00:40:56,245 Speaker 2: human museum of the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders. Some of the 797 00:40:56,285 --> 00:41:00,245 Speaker 2: stuff that I learned from Sarah in that interview about 798 00:41:00,685 --> 00:41:04,285 Speaker 2: the fraternizing, about that story about the cheerleader who was 799 00:41:04,405 --> 00:41:10,205 Speaker 2: like I choose my man over my pomp poms and 800 00:41:10,325 --> 00:41:13,645 Speaker 2: Jerry Jones he was so creepy in that Netflix show. 801 00:41:14,125 --> 00:41:16,165 Speaker 2: But one of the things I really didn't understand before 802 00:41:16,205 --> 00:41:19,085 Speaker 2: this conversation is why these women would work for so 803 00:41:19,365 --> 00:41:23,405 Speaker 2: little pay. Being a cheerleader for the Dallas Cowboys is 804 00:41:23,485 --> 00:41:27,365 Speaker 2: really seen as this great honor and this great privilege, 805 00:41:27,565 --> 00:41:31,885 Speaker 2: and Sarah kind of explained that it's not just about 806 00:41:31,885 --> 00:41:34,845 Speaker 2: the money for them, but still, even if someone loves 807 00:41:34,885 --> 00:41:37,725 Speaker 2: what they do and feels really honored and privileged to 808 00:41:37,765 --> 00:41:40,885 Speaker 2: do it, they should get paid more. So much more. 809 00:41:41,125 --> 00:41:43,765 Speaker 2: I mean, given the millions of dollars that the players make, 810 00:41:44,125 --> 00:41:47,045 Speaker 2: and given the fact that the mascot makes about sixty 811 00:41:47,085 --> 00:41:51,405 Speaker 2: five thousand dollars, these women make about fifteen thousand dollars 812 00:41:51,485 --> 00:41:55,485 Speaker 2: a year. And I never got the no fraternization rule before, 813 00:41:55,525 --> 00:41:58,285 Speaker 2: but of course it's because of the wives that makes 814 00:41:58,285 --> 00:42:01,325 Speaker 2: sense too now. And if you can't get enough of 815 00:42:01,365 --> 00:42:05,565 Speaker 2: the DC scene, I cannot recommend her podcast enough. But 816 00:42:05,685 --> 00:42:08,125 Speaker 2: we also have done a lot of stories on Mumma 817 00:42:08,205 --> 00:42:11,605 Speaker 2: Meha about them, including a story about Janelle, the Aussie 818 00:42:11,685 --> 00:42:15,445 Speaker 2: cheerleader who married the girl of her dreams. I've interviewed 819 00:42:15,445 --> 00:42:18,805 Speaker 2: Sarah before actually you might recognize her name and her voice. 820 00:42:19,045 --> 00:42:22,245 Speaker 2: She was on No Filter talking about a book called 821 00:42:22,285 --> 00:42:25,525 Speaker 2: Blackout that was about her long journey to sobriety. So 822 00:42:25,565 --> 00:42:27,685 Speaker 2: I'll also put a link to that in the show 823 00:42:27,725 --> 00:42:30,325 Speaker 2: notes if you want to have a listen. This podcast 824 00:42:30,685 --> 00:42:34,845 Speaker 2: was executive produced by Naima Brown, who's also American but 825 00:42:34,925 --> 00:42:37,005 Speaker 2: not from Texas. And I don't know if she wanted 826 00:42:37,005 --> 00:42:38,805 Speaker 2: to be a cheerleader or not, but I'm glad she's 827 00:42:38,845 --> 00:42:41,965 Speaker 2: not one because she's amazing on this show. And also 828 00:42:42,045 --> 00:42:44,725 Speaker 2: Leah Porges, who is the wind beneath our wings. Thanks 829 00:42:44,765 --> 00:42:47,565 Speaker 2: for listening. I'm Meya Friedman. Go shake you pumpongs.