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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mother Mia podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and orders. This podcast was

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Speaker 1: recorded on It's the early hours of May one, twenty ten,

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Speaker 1: and Shannon Gilbert calls nine to one to one from

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Speaker 1: a house in Long Island, New York. She's there working

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Speaker 1: as an escort with a client she met on Craigslist.

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Speaker 1: There's somebody after me, She repeatedly tells.

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Speaker 2: The operator where are you? There's somebody answering, Okay, where

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Speaker 2: are you? So somebody answer where are you?

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Speaker 1: Ma'am? I thought you're The entire call lasts twenty two minutes.

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Speaker 1: She sounds calm and then confused. You can hear her

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Speaker 1: talking to two men in the background. She keeps telling

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Speaker 1: someone to stop please. Then she starts running down the street.

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Speaker 1: You can hear her screaming and breathing heavily. She asks

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Speaker 1: neighbors for help, knocking on their doors. Two different homes

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Speaker 1: called police, but when they finally dispatch officers to the area,

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Speaker 1: Shannon is nowhere to be found. Months pass and despite

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Speaker 1: extensive searches by local law enforcement, there is no sign

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Speaker 1: of the twenty three year old. They do, however, stumble

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Speaker 1: on another grisly discovery, the bodies of four young women,

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Speaker 1: all of them, like Shannon, are escorts who met their

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Speaker 1: clients online. The similarities between the women are uncanny, all

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Speaker 1: of them petite, all of them in their twenties, all

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Speaker 1: of them working as sex workers, posting ads on Craigslist.

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Speaker 1: Immediately police know their hunting a serial killer. The following year,

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Speaker 1: six more sets of remains are found in the same area,

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Speaker 1: bringing the body count to ten. The hunt for answers intensifies.

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Speaker 1: This is a case with many twists and turns, all

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Speaker 1: culminating in a sensational arrest in July twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: more than a decade after the bodies were found, rex

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Speaker 1: Hueman has been charged with multiple counts of murder and

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Speaker 1: is currently awaiting trial. It was supposed to start in

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Speaker 1: September this year that has been delayed. Alexis Linkletter is

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Speaker 1: a true crime producer and investigative journalist from Long Island

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Speaker 1: who has been reporting at length on the case and

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Speaker 1: continues to provide updates via her podcast Unraveled. Alexis joins

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Speaker 1: us now Shannon Gilbert. During her nine to one one call,

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Speaker 1: two men could be heard in the background while she

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Speaker 1: was telling the operator she was unsafe and someone was

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Speaker 1: after her. What do we now know about what was

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Speaker 1: happening on that May first morning?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: So, on that May first morning, we know that Shannon

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Speaker 3: Gilbert was called to the home of Joseph Brewer and

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Speaker 3: she was brought there by her driver, Michael Pack And

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Speaker 3: at that point, when Shannon had called nine one one,

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Speaker 3: Joseph Brewer was trying to get her out of his

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Speaker 3: house because she was panicking about something. And you can

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Speaker 3: hear them on the nine one one call in the background,

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Speaker 3: sort of seeming to talk to each other. It's kind

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Speaker 3: of unintelligible, but it sounds like they're communicating about what

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Speaker 3: to do.

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Speaker 1: Her disappearance prompted a search of the nearby area. What

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Speaker 1: did that search junk cover? And it was something that

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Speaker 1: went on for several months.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So at first the search for her uncovered nothing.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't until December of that year that a police

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Speaker 3: officer conducting a search with a search dog found some

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Speaker 3: skeletal remains, and everyone assumed that those remains would be

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Speaker 3: that of the missing Shannon Gilbert, the woman they had

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Speaker 3: been looking for, But that wasn't the case. It turns

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Speaker 3: out these remains actually belonged to a missing young woman

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Speaker 3: named Melissa Bartholemy. And after those remains were found, the

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Speaker 3: remains of three other women were also found left there,

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Speaker 3: nearly identically, and they were left about five hundred feet

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Speaker 3: from each other, along the stretch of highway that was

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Speaker 3: in very close proximity to the neighborhood where Shannon Gilbert

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Speaker 3: vanished from.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell us.

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Speaker 1: A little bit about the women. Let's start with Melissa

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Speaker 1: because her family in particular had been receiving kind of

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Speaker 1: taunting phone calls, hadn't they.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So shortly after Melissa's disappearance, her sister Amanda received

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Speaker 3: calls from an unknown person. This person used a lot

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Speaker 3: of derogatory language. This person had explicitly said things like,

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Speaker 3: I'm watching your sister rot your sister is dead, just

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Speaker 3: things like that. The exact verbiage we don't know, but

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Speaker 3: that was the types of things this person was saying.

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Speaker 3: And at that point, Melissa had been missing, so these

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Speaker 3: were obviously very terrifying calls to receive.

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Speaker 1: Who was Melissa and the other women amba, Megan and Mulraine.

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Speaker 1: They all had a lot of similarities, didn't they.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So they were all young women.

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Speaker 3: They were all batite, and they were all advertising their

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Speaker 3: services on Craigslist because they were working as sex workers.

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Speaker 3: But that's not what any of them wanted to be doing.

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Speaker 3: Melissa Bartholemy was last seen in New York City. She

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Speaker 3: had goals of opening her own hair salon. She had

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Speaker 3: a lot of friends, a lot of people who loved her.

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Speaker 3: And Megan Waterman was from Maine and she was essentially

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Speaker 3: trafficked across state lines by her boyfriend slash pimp to

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Speaker 3: conduct sex work on Long Island and in the city,

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Speaker 3: and that's what she was doing when she was last seen.

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Speaker 3: And then Amberlin Costello she was actually the only one

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Speaker 3: living on Long Island when she disappeared, and she was

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Speaker 3: last seen getting into a truck in front of her house,

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Speaker 3: presumably with a client, and then she was never seen again.

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Speaker 3: And then Maureen brainer Barnes, same thing. She was a

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Speaker 3: young sex worker who vanished after meeting a client.

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Speaker 1: What kind of time frame are we talking about when

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Speaker 1: these women went to me seen?

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Speaker 3: So Maureene brainer Barnes vanished in two thousand and seven,

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Speaker 3: and the others disappeared between that and two thousand and nine,

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Speaker 3: with the final two disappearing within just a few months

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Speaker 3: of each other in two thousand and nine.

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Speaker 1: And when police found their bodies, were I able to

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Speaker 1: determine any think about how they died.

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Speaker 3: Presumably yes, but that information wasn't released right away, and

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Speaker 3: because it was skeletal remains, very little.

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Speaker 2: Was released to the public at that time.

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Speaker 3: What the public was made aware of is that these

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Speaker 3: women were petite, They were wrapped in burlap, and that's

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Speaker 3: kind of all we learned, and that's all we knew

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Speaker 3: for a really long time.

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Speaker 1: A discovery like this is obviously shocking. Did police immediately

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Speaker 1: know that they were hunting a serial killer? Because I

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Speaker 1: can imagine that starts some pretty serious task forces and

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Speaker 1: escalations that kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: So at first, when the gil Go fur and that's

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Speaker 3: what those first victims were referred to as the gil

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Speaker 3: Go four, the assumption right away was that somebody had

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Speaker 3: killed these four victims. Where there was a diversion in

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Speaker 3: terms of the theories that occurred in April of the

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Speaker 3: following year, which is when several more sets of human

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Speaker 3: remains were found along Ocean Park. But these victims, the

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Speaker 3: circumstances were much different. There were victims that were dismembered.

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Speaker 3: There were victims that varied in terms of the race

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Speaker 3: of the victim. The victimology differed, and we had a

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Speaker 3: victim who was biologically male, dressed in women's clothing, who

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Speaker 3: was killed as a result of blunt force trauma. So

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Speaker 3: the mos started to become very varied. And that's when

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Speaker 3: the big debate about whether we were dealing with one

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Speaker 3: or two killers really arose.

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Speaker 1: Because that was six more PayPal, wasn't it. There was

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Speaker 1: even a toddler among those remains.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So that's when the controversy really began about whether

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Speaker 3: one person was responsible for all of these people. But

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Speaker 3: as far as the first four, everyone believed right away

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Speaker 3: that one person had done all of those.

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Speaker 1: And then Shannon's reminds were eventually found as well.

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Speaker 3: Yes, eighteen months after she disappeared, Shannon was found, and interestingly,

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Speaker 3: her remains were found very close to where she disappeared from,

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Speaker 3: which created a lot of questions about how thorough the

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Speaker 3: search had been for her to begin with, how had

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Speaker 3: they not discovered her sooner if she was essentially right

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Speaker 3: down the street from where she vanished from.

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Speaker 1: And interestingly, with Shannon, Palais actually said that I didn't

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Speaker 1: think she'd been murdered, right.

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Speaker 3: That also creates a lot of confusion for people, especially

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Speaker 3: given her similarities to these other victims that were found

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Speaker 3: right down the street. It's hard to believe for a

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Speaker 3: lot of people that she's not a murder victim. But

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Speaker 3: the Suffocunty Police Department essentially says, and they stand by

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Speaker 3: the fact that they believe Sheannon Gilbert died as a

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Speaker 3: result of misadventure, which is essentially sort of an unknown cause.

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Speaker 3: They believe she has succumbed to the elements, whether that's

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Speaker 3: suffering some sort of psychotic drug induced episode that caused

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Speaker 3: her to crawl into this really thick brush and drowned.

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Speaker 3: You know, they've been sort of unclear because again, eighteen

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Speaker 3: months later, she was found in a state of just

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Speaker 3: skeletal remains. It's hard to know what exactly caused her death.

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Speaker 1: So this is ten bodies, eleven including Shannon. For those

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Speaker 1: who haven't been to Long Island, I haven't. Is it

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Speaker 1: quite a small area geographically to be finding all of

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Speaker 1: these remains.

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Speaker 3: So Long Island itself, to give context, is thirty miles

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Speaker 3: wide by one hundred miles long. This particular area, if

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Speaker 3: you look at a map, it's a long stretch of land,

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Speaker 3: but when you're there, it feels extremely small.

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Speaker 2: It's really remote.

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Speaker 3: There are no other houses there, and the strip of

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Speaker 3: land between the road it's on the water, so it's

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Speaker 3: on a highway. The strip of land between where the

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Speaker 3: road is and the water is very small. So it's

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Speaker 3: just a very specific place. You know, it doesn't seem

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Speaker 3: like a very obvious place for someone to hide human remains.

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Speaker 3: So the idea that there was this massive concentration of

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Speaker 3: victims in this one area led a lot of people

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Speaker 3: to suspect that, yes, we're dealing with one serial killer.

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Speaker 3: But again, because the victims that were found later varied

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Speaker 3: so much and differed so much from the first four,

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Speaker 3: there was still a big question mark over whether or

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Speaker 3: not there's one killer or multiple killers, especially because of

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Speaker 3: victims like the toddler, where it's such a departure from

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Speaker 3: what we're dealing with. As far as young women in

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Speaker 3: their twenties who are active in sex work, it really

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Speaker 3: caused a lot of confusion.

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you personally how it felt to

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Speaker 1: have this news breaking, because you're from Long Island, don't.

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Speaker 3: You, Yeah, so I grew up going to the beaches

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Speaker 3: where this all occurred. It's devastating because most of Long Island,

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Speaker 3: it's very affluent. In most parts, you think of it

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Speaker 3: as a very safe place. It's a place where people

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Speaker 3: from the city have, you know, expensive summer homes. You

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Speaker 3: would just never think that something so insidious could be happening,

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Speaker 3: and be happening for so long without people realizing it.

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Speaker 1: I want to focus on the Gilg four as they

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Speaker 1: were known. Were there any witnesses or people in the

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Speaker 1: women's orbits that were able to give police any decent

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Speaker 1: clues in those early days?

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Speaker 3: It turns out yes, although that's not something we learned

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Speaker 3: about until July.

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Speaker 2: Of twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 3: Wow. But it turns out that Amberlin Costello, who was

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Speaker 3: the last victim to disappear in the summer of two

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Speaker 3: thousand and nine, we found out a little bit about

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Speaker 3: her last two days before she vanished, And what occurred

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Speaker 3: was is that she was advertising her sex work services

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Speaker 3: on Craigslist and she was engaging with the client through text,

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Speaker 3: and her and her roommates decided that they wanted money,

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Speaker 3: but she didn't want to have sex with this calent,

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Speaker 3: so they were going to.

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Speaker 2: Do sort of a ruse.

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Speaker 3: And basically have the client come over and then Amber's

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Speaker 3: roommate would interrupt and act like her angry boyfriend.

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Speaker 2: Then the client would be chased off.

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Speaker 3: He would have already given the money and she wouldn't

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Speaker 3: have had to go through with this act. So this happens,

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Speaker 3: and the roommate actually does get into a physical altercation

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Speaker 3: with this client, who he describes as someone you know

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Speaker 3: who's six ' five hulking. He describes him as looking

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Speaker 3: like an ogre, and another key detail he includes is

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Speaker 3: that this man was driving a green Chevy Avalanche, an early.

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Speaker 2: Two thousand and two model.

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Speaker 3: So we've learned that the next day after this ruse

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Speaker 3: occurred with this client, the client reached back out to

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Speaker 3: Amber and said something to the effect of that wasn't nice.

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Speaker 3: Do I get credit for next time, suggesting that he'd

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Speaker 3: still like to see her and make another appointment. And

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Speaker 3: based on Amber's cell phone records, we've now learned that

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Speaker 3: she did agree to meet this client on the very

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Speaker 3: day that she disappeared, and neighbors later said they saw

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Speaker 3: Amber walking in the direction of a green Chevy Avalanche. So,

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Speaker 3: putting the pieces together, she's meeting up with this man

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Speaker 3: who was disgruntled the day before and that's the last

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Speaker 3: time she's ever seen and this tip about the avalanche

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Speaker 3: was provided. So it's strange that this is the clue

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Speaker 3: that would eventually lead the Suffolk County Police Department to

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Speaker 3: a suspect, because they had this clue all along, So

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Speaker 3: why wasn't it followed up on?

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Speaker 2: Then We'll never really know.

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Speaker 1: Were there any suspects in those early days that the

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Speaker 1: public knew about well that the police kind of shard

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Speaker 1: details about.

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Speaker 3: So as far as official suspects, the police were not

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Speaker 3: transparent about that. But something that really hut a spotlight

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Speaker 3: on this case was the fact that a lot of

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Speaker 3: people suspected that the Suffolcunti Chief of Police had a

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Speaker 3: hand in the Long Island serial killer case. So from

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Speaker 3: a pop culture standpoint, as far as people who are

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Speaker 3: familiar with this case, the police chief, his name is

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Speaker 3: James Burke, is someone who comes up right away, someone

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Speaker 3: who is front and center, and he has been accused

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Speaker 3: of not only being the Long Island serial killer, but

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Speaker 3: also just that he purposefully derailed and sabotage the case,

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Speaker 3: which is why it remained unsolved for thirteen years.

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Speaker 1: Well that in particular, James Burke, the investigation stooling is

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Speaker 1: what you started to investigate and kind of dig a

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Speaker 1: bit deeper into because you did have a personal connection there.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us about Chris and what he told you,

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Speaker 1: what happened to him?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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Speaker 3: So I went to high school with a guy named

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Speaker 3: Christopher Lobe a column Chris and I was working in

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Speaker 3: the true crime space in Los Angeles, moved away from

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Speaker 3: Long Island, and around twenty thirteen I started hearing that

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Speaker 3: he was in jail for something he had done involving

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Speaker 3: the Suffolk County Police Chief. Now we were put in

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Speaker 3: touch after many years of not being in contact, and

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Speaker 3: that's when he told me the story of what happened.

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Speaker 3: So what occurred was by this point Chris had become

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Speaker 3: a heroin addict. Opioid addiction is something that a lot

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Speaker 3: of people on Long Island struggle with, and all over

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Speaker 3: the United States that's a big problem. So in the

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Speaker 3: throes of addiction, in order to fuel his habit, he's

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Speaker 3: resorted to robbing cars to find things to steal, and

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Speaker 3: he was doing just that in December of twenty twelve,

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Speaker 3: and it was then that he came upon a black

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Speaker 3: suv and the doors were unlocked, and he opened the

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Speaker 3: door and he stole a duffel bag out of this car.

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Speaker 3: He doesn't look at it until he gets home, and

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Speaker 3: when he opens the bag, he finds some procure things.

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Speaker 3: He finds magazines, you know, for ammunition. He finds evidence bags,

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Speaker 3: things that you might find in a police officer's duffle bag.

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Speaker 3: But he also finds things like anal, beads, porn, sex toys,

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Speaker 3: really bizarre items to also be with these police items.

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Speaker 3: And this bag belonged to the Suffolk County Police Department's

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Speaker 3: Chief of Police, James Burke. So after the theft of

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Speaker 3: this bag, Chris was on probation for a different crime.

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Speaker 3: And I don't know how, No one really knows how

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Speaker 3: Burke knew it was Chris. But James Burke, the chief

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Speaker 3: of police, and several other officers descended upon Chris's house

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Speaker 3: and entered the home under the guise of it being

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Speaker 3: you know, a routine sort of probationary search. And they

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Speaker 3: recover the bag and they beat up Chris in front

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Speaker 3: of his mother and they drag him down to the

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Speaker 3: police station. And after that he's subsequently, you know, beaten

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Speaker 3: and tortured and taunted by James Burke. And after that,

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Speaker 3: James Burke threatens everybody who was there to never say

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Speaker 3: a word, and there's basically a conspiracy to cover up

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Speaker 3: what's just happened that ensues. After that, Chris is thrown

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Speaker 3: in jail and silenced as a result. And it's at

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Speaker 3: that point that he and I reconnect and I realize, WHOA,

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Speaker 3: there's like really a story here. But I entered this

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Speaker 3: story thinking of this as a story about political corruption.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't until I started piecing together the timeline of

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Speaker 3: everything that I realized how much influenced James Burke would

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Speaker 3: have had over the Long Island serial killer case.

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Speaker 1: Well, there was one particular day style that Chris gave

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Speaker 1: you about a daba a day that quite clearly could

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Speaker 1: incriminate him in terms of the Long Island Killer. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell us about that?

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Speaker 3: So Chris alleges that, and this is something he didn't

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Speaker 3: tell anyone until he participated in my series Unraveled, And

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Speaker 3: this was a story he told in twenty twenty when

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Speaker 3: this event occurred in twenty twelve.

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Speaker 2: But he said that there was a.

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Speaker 3: Snuff film DVD in the back, and he said that

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Speaker 3: the girl on the film looked like Megan Waterman, one

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Speaker 3: of the Gilgo fur victims.

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Speaker 2: Now, I don't believe that.

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Speaker 3: But when you're doing journalism, when you're a journalist, you

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Speaker 3: can't really insert your opinion. I was skeptical, but it

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Speaker 3: is what Chris swore up and down happened.

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Speaker 2: And was it just a blonde girl who looked like Megan? Maybe?

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Speaker 3: Was it a fake snuff film where it's porn that's

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Speaker 3: really rough and that's what's supposed to be depicted. There

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Speaker 3: was a lot of nuance with what it could have

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Speaker 3: been at that time. But everybody heard this and immediately

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Speaker 3: the conspiracy theorists were abound with theories about James Brooke

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Speaker 3: being the Long Island serial killer. And we uncovered so

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Speaker 3: many truthful things from his past about what he did

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Speaker 3: with sex workers. He had a really checkered history. He

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Speaker 3: was violent with many sex workers. He was known to

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Speaker 3: hire sex workers, he had a long term relationship with

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Speaker 3: a sex worker, and in fact, he attended a sex

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Speaker 3: party in Oak Beach, which is the same neighborhood where

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Speaker 3: Shannon Gilbert disappeared from, and was engaged with a sex

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Speaker 3: worker was violent with her.

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Speaker 2: It just looked really bad as far as Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Of course you wouldn't want the FBI or any other

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Speaker 3: larger police agencies investigating this case and potentially uncovering your

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Speaker 3: ties to these women and to this neighborhood where the

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Speaker 3: women were found.

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Speaker 1: So allegations of snuff film aside, there was plenty of

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Speaker 1: solid evidence you were able to find about James and

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Speaker 1: in fact he actually stood down, didn't he There was

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Speaker 1: proof that he kind of fumbled the investigation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's on records that the FBI tried to

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Speaker 3: get involved and he blocked that. He was ultimately charged

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Speaker 3: for what he did to Chris Loeb, and he didn't

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Speaker 3: do it alone. He had accomplices and he was working

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Speaker 3: with the District Attorney, which is I don't know what

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Speaker 3: they call them in Australia, but it's just the highest

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Speaker 3: prosecuting attorney for the state essentially for this county. And

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Speaker 3: it turns out his name is Tom Spoda. He's in

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Speaker 3: jail right now for his involvement in this and him

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Speaker 3: and James Burke had had a relationship for forty years

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Speaker 3: where they were essentially involved in corruption together, helping each

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Speaker 3: other it was kind of a quid pro quo relationship

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Speaker 3: where they were covering up a lot of stuff. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's it really got serious when they were indicted for

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00:21:56,542 --> 00:22:00,022
Speaker 3: their roles in this and people really started to suspect, Okay,

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00:22:00,902 --> 00:22:03,502
Speaker 3: whether James Burke is a serial killer or not, he

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Speaker 3: has a hand in why this case is not solved.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Jimmy Bath.

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking with true crime host and producer Alexis Link

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Speaker 1: Litter Up. Next, I ask Alexis how the police managed

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Speaker 1: to discover and catch who they suspected to be the

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Speaker 1: Long Island serial killer. Well, let's skip forward to twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two, because a new task force was formed and

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Speaker 1: within six weeks they had a new potential suspect. How

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Speaker 1: did police find Rex Hueman?

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Speaker 3: So we were all very excited when the new task

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Speaker 3: force was assembled and there was this renewed effort to

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Speaker 3: really regroup and do this right.

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Speaker 2: From the start.

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Speaker 3: And it's a little disheartening to realize that it only

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Speaker 3: took them six weeks of true focus, of real valiant

380
00:23:07,422 --> 00:23:10,062
Speaker 3: effort to do this, considering how many people had been

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00:23:10,062 --> 00:23:15,582
Speaker 3: suffered for how long without these answers. But essentially it

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00:23:15,662 --> 00:23:20,262
Speaker 3: was the tip provided by Amberlin Costello's roommate about the

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Speaker 3: Chevy Avalanche that actually led the police to the door

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Speaker 3: of their suspect. And that's frustrating because that means it

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00:23:28,982 --> 00:23:30,782
Speaker 3: wasn't like they found a new piece of evidence or

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00:23:30,822 --> 00:23:33,222
Speaker 3: a new tip or anything. It was a tip they

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Speaker 3: had that had been ignored, that had been slipped through

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Speaker 3: the cracks, that was lost in a time when James

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Speaker 3: Burke would have kind of been in control of how

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Speaker 3: to solve this case. So it sort of proved our

391
00:23:47,302 --> 00:23:50,782
Speaker 3: hypothesis about why this case wasn't solved because they had

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Speaker 3: this information all along. And it was ironic that it

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Speaker 3: was a female investigator who uncovered it, which.

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Speaker 1: I loved well, as you say, two decades it sat there,

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Speaker 1: just sat there in front of them. There was also

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Speaker 1: some DNA that they were able to link.

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Speaker 2: Wasn't there, Yes, So we didn't know this until there

398
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Speaker 2: was an arrest.

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Speaker 3: Several hairs had been found on the remains of the

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Speaker 3: Gilgo fr and.

401
00:24:16,782 --> 00:24:19,102
Speaker 2: Megan Waterman, that victim.

402
00:24:19,542 --> 00:24:22,982
Speaker 3: There was a male hair that was found and once

403
00:24:23,262 --> 00:24:26,422
Speaker 3: Rex sewer Men, who is the suspect who would come

404
00:24:26,462 --> 00:24:29,982
Speaker 3: to be arrested. Once he was identified as the person

405
00:24:30,022 --> 00:24:35,582
Speaker 3: who owned that Chevy Avalanche, they were able to follow

406
00:24:35,702 --> 00:24:39,782
Speaker 3: him and get a surreptitious DNA sample and connect it

407
00:24:40,022 --> 00:24:44,662
Speaker 3: to hairs that they were covered on this victim, Megan Watermen.

408
00:24:45,142 --> 00:24:49,302
Speaker 3: They were also able to connect Rex Sierman's family to

409
00:24:49,662 --> 00:24:50,662
Speaker 3: other hairs.

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00:24:50,302 --> 00:24:51,582
Speaker 2: Found on other victims.

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Speaker 3: So that was a huge development to because the Chevy

412
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Speaker 3: Avalanche is a great connection, but it's not what juris

413
00:25:00,982 --> 00:25:02,942
Speaker 3: want to see these days. They really want to see DNA,

414
00:25:03,462 --> 00:25:07,502
Speaker 3: so to be able to link him with DNA was huge.

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Speaker 1: So they arrested him in July twenty twenty three, initially

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Speaker 1: only charging him with three of the motives. Eventually he

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Speaker 1: was charged with a fourth. Can you tell us about

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Speaker 1: that fourth charge, because the allegations in that case were

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Speaker 1: quite surprising, weren't they.

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Speaker 2: So with the.

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Speaker 3: Fourth one with the timeline we discussed between two thousand

422
00:25:29,862 --> 00:25:31,982
Speaker 3: and seven and two thousand and nine with the Gilgo

423
00:25:32,022 --> 00:25:34,662
Speaker 3: four victims, Yes, they were able to charge him with

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00:25:34,662 --> 00:25:38,462
Speaker 3: a three that occurred later across those couple of years.

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Speaker 3: Maureen Rynard Barnes was the first victim who disappeared in

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Speaker 3: two thousand and seven, so presumably they just had less

427
00:25:46,222 --> 00:25:48,702
Speaker 3: in the form of, you know, digital evidence. With the

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00:25:48,742 --> 00:25:52,382
Speaker 3: other three victims, they had phone records and they had

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Speaker 3: text messages. They were able to conclude that Rex Yeerman's

430
00:25:56,902 --> 00:25:58,862
Speaker 3: family was out of town when each of these occurred,

431
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Speaker 3: but it just took a little longer to charge him

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Speaker 3: with Maureen Ringard Barnes's murder. But it was revealed that

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Speaker 3: instead of waiting for all four, which is I think

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Speaker 3: they wanted to do initially, there was a sense of

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00:26:13,382 --> 00:26:16,342
Speaker 3: urgency to get these charges filed because they suspected that

436
00:26:16,382 --> 00:26:19,542
Speaker 3: he might kill again because his family had a trip

437
00:26:19,582 --> 00:26:22,062
Speaker 3: coming up, and that was something that they had been

438
00:26:22,102 --> 00:26:25,622
Speaker 3: able to identify as a constant for when each of

439
00:26:25,662 --> 00:26:30,222
Speaker 3: these victims disappeared. So they also were tracking his phones

440
00:26:30,342 --> 00:26:31,942
Speaker 3: and seeing that he was talking.

441
00:26:31,862 --> 00:26:32,782
Speaker 2: To sex workers.

442
00:26:32,822 --> 00:26:34,862
Speaker 3: They were just very worried that he was ramping up,

443
00:26:34,942 --> 00:26:38,302
Speaker 3: so that's why they pulled the trigger, even though they

444
00:26:38,302 --> 00:26:39,782
Speaker 3: only had enough for the three at the time.

445
00:26:41,022 --> 00:26:43,862
Speaker 1: I know police don't think that Shannon was murdered, but

446
00:26:43,902 --> 00:26:46,182
Speaker 1: it's really hard to separate her from the gilgo fuur

447
00:26:46,302 --> 00:26:50,502
Speaker 1: considering she was also in sex works. She also found

448
00:26:50,902 --> 00:26:54,262
Speaker 1: people on Craig's list do they allege she had any

449
00:26:54,342 --> 00:26:55,902
Speaker 1: run in with human.

450
00:26:56,902 --> 00:26:59,862
Speaker 3: They have not disclosed whether or not they have found

451
00:26:59,902 --> 00:27:04,062
Speaker 3: a link between Shannon Gilbert and Rex Huerman. However, people

452
00:27:04,102 --> 00:27:06,742
Speaker 3: have come forward claiming that there is a link between

453
00:27:06,742 --> 00:27:09,702
Speaker 3: Shannon Gilbert and Rex Huerman, but law enforcement have not

454
00:27:10,582 --> 00:27:14,102
Speaker 3: verified this information. But John Ray has taken affidavits from

455
00:27:14,142 --> 00:27:18,302
Speaker 3: witnesses who claim to have seen Rex Yuerman with Shannon

456
00:27:18,342 --> 00:27:23,982
Speaker 3: Gilbert at a motel in Suffolk County, So there are

457
00:27:23,982 --> 00:27:25,742
Speaker 3: claims that there may be a connection there.

458
00:27:26,342 --> 00:27:27,062
Speaker 2: I think what.

459
00:27:28,582 --> 00:27:32,342
Speaker 3: Is a challenge with Shannon Gilbert would be connecting him

460
00:27:32,422 --> 00:27:35,022
Speaker 3: to that Oak Beach neighborhood, which as far as I

461
00:27:35,022 --> 00:27:37,622
Speaker 3: have heard, there are no connections. There are no connections

462
00:27:37,622 --> 00:27:40,982
Speaker 3: between Joseph Brewer and Michael Pack, the men who were

463
00:27:41,022 --> 00:27:42,662
Speaker 3: heard in the background of that nine when one call.

464
00:27:43,582 --> 00:27:46,582
Speaker 3: It's hard to know how Okay, there's all this proof

465
00:27:46,582 --> 00:27:49,462
Speaker 3: that Shannon ran from that house that night, she knocked

466
00:27:49,462 --> 00:27:52,542
Speaker 3: on neighbors doors. You know, Rex Yerman would have had

467
00:27:52,542 --> 00:27:57,022
Speaker 3: to encounter her by happenstance while she's screaming running through

468
00:27:57,022 --> 00:28:00,062
Speaker 3: a road in the middle of the night, and he

469
00:28:00,222 --> 00:28:02,942
Speaker 3: has no ties to this area. So it's just hard

470
00:28:02,942 --> 00:28:05,622
Speaker 3: to understand how that would have happened.

471
00:28:06,382 --> 00:28:08,862
Speaker 1: So it's just a coincidence, which is wild.

472
00:28:09,422 --> 00:28:10,902
Speaker 2: Maybe or or maybe not.

473
00:28:11,262 --> 00:28:14,222
Speaker 3: I think the fact that we're dealing with such a

474
00:28:14,222 --> 00:28:17,302
Speaker 3: small area, like we discussed in the beginning, and the

475
00:28:17,382 --> 00:28:21,022
Speaker 3: idea that so many men are connected to these sex

476
00:28:21,062 --> 00:28:25,182
Speaker 3: workers in this way also reflects just a greater attitude

477
00:28:25,262 --> 00:28:30,062
Speaker 3: about women, showing how pervasive this is, which it's not

478
00:28:30,142 --> 00:28:33,862
Speaker 3: something I understood before getting involved in this case. It's

479
00:28:33,902 --> 00:28:35,742
Speaker 3: one of the more bizarre elements of this case. It's

480
00:28:35,782 --> 00:28:38,462
Speaker 3: really hard to understand how she could not be connected.

481
00:28:38,542 --> 00:28:39,342
Speaker 2: It's really hard.

482
00:28:39,702 --> 00:28:41,662
Speaker 3: It's hard to face that you look at it on

483
00:28:41,702 --> 00:28:45,142
Speaker 3: a map. This happened very close together. She also matches

484
00:28:45,182 --> 00:28:49,102
Speaker 3: the descriptions of these women. She's batite, she's blonde. She fits,

485
00:28:49,422 --> 00:28:52,022
Speaker 3: you know, but then she doesn't. It's just very hard

486
00:28:52,022 --> 00:28:52,662
Speaker 3: to understand.

487
00:28:54,022 --> 00:28:58,062
Speaker 1: What do we know about human married kids? What does

488
00:28:58,062 --> 00:28:58,942
Speaker 1: he do for work?

489
00:29:00,382 --> 00:29:03,462
Speaker 3: So we know that Rex Huerman is married, He's been

490
00:29:03,502 --> 00:29:07,622
Speaker 3: married twice. He's got a biological daughter and a son

491
00:29:07,742 --> 00:29:12,182
Speaker 3: who he essentially adopted through marrying his second wife. He

492
00:29:12,502 --> 00:29:16,182
Speaker 3: is a Long Island lifer is what they call them,

493
00:29:16,182 --> 00:29:17,902
Speaker 3: born and raised on Long Island.

494
00:29:18,742 --> 00:29:19,502
Speaker 2: He currently.

495
00:29:19,662 --> 00:29:21,742
Speaker 3: I mean, up until the moment of his arrest, lived

496
00:29:21,782 --> 00:29:24,542
Speaker 3: in the home that he was raised in. He bought

497
00:29:24,582 --> 00:29:29,582
Speaker 3: the house from his mother in the nineties ninety one,

498
00:29:29,782 --> 00:29:30,862
Speaker 3: and he.

499
00:29:30,742 --> 00:29:31,582
Speaker 2: Is an architect.

500
00:29:31,782 --> 00:29:35,502
Speaker 3: And in ninety three, I believe, is when he opened

501
00:29:35,542 --> 00:29:39,782
Speaker 3: his own architectural firm. That office was located in Midtown, Manhattan,

502
00:29:40,182 --> 00:29:45,062
Speaker 3: And for geographical context, that's about an hour and change

503
00:29:45,222 --> 00:29:45,942
Speaker 3: away from.

504
00:29:45,742 --> 00:29:46,422
Speaker 2: Where he lives.

505
00:29:46,462 --> 00:29:49,142
Speaker 3: And he lives in a town called massive Pequa Park

506
00:29:50,102 --> 00:29:53,422
Speaker 3: and he commutes back and forth from his house to

507
00:29:53,462 --> 00:29:56,382
Speaker 3: the city every day to get to his office.

508
00:29:56,462 --> 00:30:00,902
Speaker 2: He has hobbies. He likes to hunt. He was a

509
00:30:00,902 --> 00:30:02,342
Speaker 2: member of social groups.

510
00:30:03,302 --> 00:30:06,542
Speaker 3: He's strange. We talked to people who went to high

511
00:30:06,542 --> 00:30:10,862
Speaker 3: school with him. He was bullied. He was described as odd.

512
00:30:12,342 --> 00:30:15,902
Speaker 3: He doesn't appear like on paper you wouldn't think he's

513
00:30:15,902 --> 00:30:17,502
Speaker 3: a serial killer, but he looks like one.

514
00:30:18,262 --> 00:30:21,622
Speaker 1: Well physically, he kind of fits that description the roommate gave,

515
00:30:21,782 --> 00:30:22,542
Speaker 1: doesn't he.

516
00:30:22,782 --> 00:30:25,862
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's a perfect match. But what I just

517
00:30:25,942 --> 00:30:29,022
Speaker 3: think is interesting about him. Think about the most famous

518
00:30:29,062 --> 00:30:31,502
Speaker 3: serial killer is like, think about Brian Koeberger. I don't

519
00:30:31,502 --> 00:30:33,302
Speaker 3: know if you're familiar with that case. To the Idaho

520
00:30:34,222 --> 00:30:37,262
Speaker 3: College students. He doesn't look like a serial killer, Like

521
00:30:37,342 --> 00:30:41,782
Speaker 3: he's conventionally attractive, you know, Ted Bundy, It's like Rex

522
00:30:41,862 --> 00:30:44,702
Speaker 3: Hwerman looks like a serial killer to me.

523
00:30:44,942 --> 00:30:47,822
Speaker 1: Like the Hole, he's quite intimidating.

524
00:30:48,462 --> 00:30:53,462
Speaker 3: He's huge, he's hasty, he's disheveled, and he has this

525
00:30:53,582 --> 00:30:58,342
Speaker 3: really these vacant eyes. He's quite scary looking. But yeah,

526
00:30:58,382 --> 00:31:02,102
Speaker 3: so that is sort of the summary about Rex Huerman.

527
00:31:02,222 --> 00:31:06,702
Speaker 3: You know, we also know that in college he worked

528
00:31:06,782 --> 00:31:11,262
Speaker 3: at these beaches doing maintenance and things like that, at

529
00:31:11,582 --> 00:31:15,062
Speaker 3: near where these victims remains were found, so he has

530
00:31:15,222 --> 00:31:16,782
Speaker 3: very strong ties to this area.

531
00:31:17,342 --> 00:31:19,462
Speaker 2: We know that Massapequa Park where he lives.

532
00:31:20,182 --> 00:31:22,222
Speaker 3: One of those phone calls to the sister of Melissa

533
00:31:22,262 --> 00:31:26,182
Speaker 3: Bartholemy was able to be traced to Massapequa, so they

534
00:31:26,262 --> 00:31:28,782
Speaker 3: knew they were looking for someone with ties to that area.

535
00:31:28,902 --> 00:31:32,182
Speaker 3: Other calls were traced to Manhattan. They knew they were

536
00:31:32,222 --> 00:31:34,342
Speaker 3: looking for someone with ties to that area as well.

537
00:31:34,622 --> 00:31:35,822
Speaker 2: And he really fits the bell.

538
00:31:35,902 --> 00:31:39,942
Speaker 3: And he had that same exact Chevy Avalanche, but he

539
00:31:39,982 --> 00:31:42,342
Speaker 3: gave it to his brother, but he got a new

540
00:31:42,382 --> 00:31:44,062
Speaker 3: one that's exactly like his old one.

541
00:31:44,182 --> 00:31:45,062
Speaker 2: So this is a car.

542
00:31:45,102 --> 00:31:47,462
Speaker 3: He seems to really like, that's what we know about

543
00:31:47,462 --> 00:31:50,942
Speaker 3: Rex Herman. He seems to have very strong emotional.

544
00:31:50,502 --> 00:31:51,502
Speaker 2: Ties to this house.

545
00:31:51,582 --> 00:31:55,302
Speaker 3: And it's interesting that he's an architect because his house

546
00:31:55,382 --> 00:31:58,342
Speaker 3: is dilapidated, like it looks like it's on the verge

547
00:31:58,342 --> 00:32:01,862
Speaker 3: of collapsing. He's got his porch propped up with a

548
00:32:01,862 --> 00:32:05,702
Speaker 3: piece of plywood. It's really just an awful shape. And

549
00:32:05,742 --> 00:32:08,222
Speaker 3: pictures of the inside revealed that there was some hoarding

550
00:32:08,342 --> 00:32:08,742
Speaker 3: going on.

551
00:32:09,342 --> 00:32:11,822
Speaker 2: It's really a bizarre situation, all of it.

552
00:32:12,222 --> 00:32:15,222
Speaker 1: Well, the house in particular is also a big focus

553
00:32:15,262 --> 00:32:17,182
Speaker 1: of the investigation itself, isn't it.

554
00:32:17,942 --> 00:32:20,742
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is, and we keep learning more and more

555
00:32:20,782 --> 00:32:25,342
Speaker 3: about why that is. And while it's not been explicitly stated,

556
00:32:26,062 --> 00:32:33,382
Speaker 3: evidence shows and their implications that suggest he used the

557
00:32:33,422 --> 00:32:37,982
Speaker 3: basement of his house to commit these crimes. This is

558
00:32:38,022 --> 00:32:42,742
Speaker 3: where they suspect the murders occurred over the course of

559
00:32:42,822 --> 00:32:46,302
Speaker 3: days when his family was out of town, and with

560
00:32:46,422 --> 00:32:48,942
Speaker 3: the evidence that has been made available, we're also piecing

561
00:32:48,942 --> 00:32:52,222
Speaker 3: together these timeline he was keeping his victims in his

562
00:32:52,262 --> 00:32:57,302
Speaker 3: basement and still going to work, still going to meetings,

563
00:32:57,982 --> 00:33:02,302
Speaker 3: keeping up a very normal facade of day to day life,

564
00:33:02,422 --> 00:33:06,302
Speaker 3: even though he had victims in his basement, probably still alive,

565
00:33:06,782 --> 00:33:11,702
Speaker 3: because we're learning that this was a prolonged experience for him.

566
00:33:11,742 --> 00:33:14,662
Speaker 3: This wasn't something that he did quickly. This was something

567
00:33:14,702 --> 00:33:17,662
Speaker 3: he did over days, and he was going to work

568
00:33:17,782 --> 00:33:20,542
Speaker 3: pretending to be normal and able to do that. The

569
00:33:20,582 --> 00:33:25,662
Speaker 3: compartmentalization that takes is uncanny, but he was able to

570
00:33:25,702 --> 00:33:28,942
Speaker 3: do this, and it's just a very scary, sobering realization

571
00:33:29,022 --> 00:33:30,182
Speaker 3: that that's what we're dealing with.

572
00:33:30,982 --> 00:33:34,022
Speaker 1: Since he's a rist. He has been charged with two automotives,

573
00:33:34,222 --> 00:33:38,102
Speaker 1: Sandra Castilla and Jessica Tyla. What do we know about

574
00:33:38,102 --> 00:33:39,182
Speaker 1: them and what happened to them?

575
00:33:40,022 --> 00:33:42,702
Speaker 3: So this is where it gets very interesting. So Sandra

576
00:33:42,782 --> 00:33:46,542
Speaker 3: Costilla was murdered in nineteen ninety three, and them in

577
00:33:46,582 --> 00:33:48,902
Speaker 3: her case is completely different than with any of the others.

578
00:33:49,582 --> 00:33:53,222
Speaker 3: She was stabbed, she was posed, she was left in

579
00:33:53,262 --> 00:33:57,302
Speaker 3: a completely different area in Southampton, which is further east

580
00:33:57,622 --> 00:34:01,582
Speaker 3: than where all of the other victims were found. And

581
00:34:02,622 --> 00:34:07,302
Speaker 3: what's interesting about Sandra is that everybody suspected that Sandra

582
00:34:07,462 --> 00:34:10,422
Speaker 3: was murdered by somebody else. So a man named John

583
00:34:10,622 --> 00:34:15,782
Speaker 3: Bitroff was arrested in twenty fourteen for the murders of

584
00:34:16,062 --> 00:34:20,582
Speaker 3: two women Rita Tangretti and Colleen McNamee. They were murdered

585
00:34:20,622 --> 00:34:24,302
Speaker 3: within a three month period, and the woman murdered between

586
00:34:24,342 --> 00:34:28,262
Speaker 3: them was Sandra Costia in that timeline, and these three

587
00:34:28,302 --> 00:34:32,182
Speaker 3: scenes had a lot of similarities. Everyone suspected that John

588
00:34:32,222 --> 00:34:35,982
Speaker 3: Bitroff had killed Sandra Costia also, but everyone just believed

589
00:34:36,022 --> 00:34:38,542
Speaker 3: that the DA didn't have enough to charge him with

590
00:34:38,622 --> 00:34:41,902
Speaker 3: Sandra's But everyone knew like Sandra Costia was killed by

591
00:34:41,982 --> 00:34:45,942
Speaker 3: John Beitroff. So when they announced Rex Huermann's indictment for

592
00:34:46,022 --> 00:34:48,822
Speaker 3: Sandra's case, it was a huge surprise, not only because

593
00:34:48,822 --> 00:34:51,342
Speaker 3: everyone thought someone else did it, but this expands the

594
00:34:51,342 --> 00:34:56,702
Speaker 3: timeline significantly because everyone to that point believed that with

595
00:34:56,742 --> 00:34:59,062
Speaker 3: the two thousand murder of Valerie Mack would have been

596
00:34:59,382 --> 00:35:02,422
Speaker 3: the first sort of in this serial killer series. He's

597
00:35:02,462 --> 00:35:04,222
Speaker 3: not been charged for the murder of Valerie Mack to

598
00:35:04,262 --> 00:35:06,942
Speaker 3: this point, but he has been named as a lead

599
00:35:07,022 --> 00:35:10,902
Speaker 3: suspect officially by law enforcement. So the idea that now

600
00:35:10,942 --> 00:35:14,302
Speaker 3: the timeline of when we know he was allegedly killing

601
00:35:14,502 --> 00:35:17,942
Speaker 3: has expanded by eight years is really alarming because it

602
00:35:17,982 --> 00:35:19,942
Speaker 3: means there could be that many more victims.

603
00:35:20,462 --> 00:35:23,382
Speaker 1: So he said that he's a suspect in another case.

604
00:35:23,422 --> 00:35:26,702
Speaker 1: We didn't mention Valerie, but he has been charged with

605
00:35:26,862 --> 00:35:27,742
Speaker 1: Jessica's murda.

606
00:35:28,502 --> 00:35:30,862
Speaker 3: Yes, So the reason why I bring up Valerie is

607
00:35:30,862 --> 00:35:35,782
Speaker 3: because Valerie and Jessica are very much connected, and they

608
00:35:35,822 --> 00:35:39,222
Speaker 3: were found way before any of the victims along Ocean

609
00:35:39,222 --> 00:35:42,182
Speaker 3: Parkway Way, before the Gilg four Way, before anyone else.

610
00:35:42,182 --> 00:35:45,702
Speaker 3: So Valerie's remains were found in a place called Manorville,

611
00:35:45,742 --> 00:35:49,062
Speaker 3: which is about forty miles away from Ocean Parkway and

612
00:35:49,062 --> 00:35:54,102
Speaker 3: Gilga Beach and Valerie when she was found in November

613
00:35:54,222 --> 00:35:57,822
Speaker 3: of two thousand, her head was missing and her hands

614
00:35:57,822 --> 00:36:00,582
Speaker 3: were missing, and she was completely dismembered and found in

615
00:36:00,662 --> 00:36:03,582
Speaker 3: trash bags and she's found in the woods. She was

616
00:36:03,582 --> 00:36:06,182
Speaker 3: not able to be identified for twenty years. She was

617
00:36:06,222 --> 00:36:09,702
Speaker 3: identified in two thousand, but three years after Valerie's remains

618
00:36:09,702 --> 00:36:13,622
Speaker 3: were found, Jessica Taylor's remains were found. Her head was missing,

619
00:36:13,662 --> 00:36:17,942
Speaker 3: her hands were missing, and she was found within one

620
00:36:17,982 --> 00:36:21,622
Speaker 3: thousand feet of where Valerie was found three years prior.

621
00:36:22,382 --> 00:36:26,622
Speaker 3: So everyone always believed that these two were connected. It

622
00:36:26,702 --> 00:36:30,902
Speaker 3: wasn't until two thy eleven April of twenty eleven where

623
00:36:31,862 --> 00:36:34,502
Speaker 3: when those other remains were found. After the gil Go

624
00:36:34,662 --> 00:36:38,582
Speaker 3: fur valorying. Jessica's missing remains were found there.

625
00:36:39,502 --> 00:36:42,662
Speaker 2: Oh, so that's how.

626
00:36:42,662 --> 00:36:45,422
Speaker 3: They were connected to the Long Island serial killer case

627
00:36:45,422 --> 00:36:48,262
Speaker 3: because their head and hands were found with the toddler

628
00:36:48,422 --> 00:36:52,582
Speaker 3: and Peaches the victim, and all these other victims that

629
00:36:52,622 --> 00:36:56,542
Speaker 3: are connected to the case but had different ms the

630
00:36:56,662 --> 00:36:58,742
Speaker 3: victims that caused the confusion about whether it was one

631
00:36:58,822 --> 00:37:02,182
Speaker 3: or two killers. So Rex has been charged with Jessica

632
00:37:02,262 --> 00:37:05,902
Speaker 3: Taylor's murder because again they found a hair that they

633
00:37:05,942 --> 00:37:08,742
Speaker 3: were able to connect back to him. And this is

634
00:37:08,822 --> 00:37:12,422
Speaker 3: very significant because while he hasn't been charged with those

635
00:37:12,422 --> 00:37:15,782
Speaker 3: other victims along Ocean Parkway, her body parts were found

636
00:37:15,782 --> 00:37:18,702
Speaker 3: amongst them, which leads everyone to believe that he will

637
00:37:18,702 --> 00:37:21,142
Speaker 3: be charged with every other victim there because this was

638
00:37:21,142 --> 00:37:25,742
Speaker 3: obviously where all those other victims were left there earlier

639
00:37:25,742 --> 00:37:28,462
Speaker 3: than the go go for we're talking Karen Vergata's remains

640
00:37:28,502 --> 00:37:30,742
Speaker 3: were found there. She was murdered in nineteen ninety six.

641
00:37:31,262 --> 00:37:34,942
Speaker 3: The Asian victim was murdered around two thousand and six.

642
00:37:35,342 --> 00:37:39,302
Speaker 3: Peaches was murdered in nineteen ninety six. So this is

643
00:37:39,382 --> 00:37:42,942
Speaker 3: like his earlier EMO. He was dismembering and he was

644
00:37:43,022 --> 00:37:46,262
Speaker 3: leaving them there and then later on he was leaving

645
00:37:46,262 --> 00:37:48,902
Speaker 3: them whole, you know, wrapped in burlap. So his mom

646
00:37:49,182 --> 00:37:50,782
Speaker 3: evolved and we know, you know, he's been charged with

647
00:37:50,782 --> 00:37:54,382
Speaker 3: Santra Christia. She was left somewhere else and murdered in

648
00:37:54,422 --> 00:37:57,862
Speaker 3: a completely different way. So this guy really is like

649
00:37:57,902 --> 00:38:01,742
Speaker 3: a chameleon as far as what he does to victims,

650
00:38:01,902 --> 00:38:04,662
Speaker 3: what he's capable of doing, the locations where he's leaving them,

651
00:38:05,142 --> 00:38:07,702
Speaker 3: and victimology. You know, some of these victims are white,

652
00:38:08,222 --> 00:38:13,622
Speaker 3: some are black, some are a It's really shocking because

653
00:38:13,622 --> 00:38:15,222
Speaker 3: we just don't know when it's going to end.

654
00:38:15,342 --> 00:38:16,822
Speaker 2: You know, we don't know how many he's.

655
00:38:16,862 --> 00:38:21,862
Speaker 3: Responsible for, because there's countless unsolved murders all across Long Island.

656
00:38:21,982 --> 00:38:24,982
Speaker 3: And now we know that he doesn't just leave victims

657
00:38:25,022 --> 00:38:28,102
Speaker 3: in an ocean parkway, because Sandra Costillo is found somewhere else.

658
00:38:28,742 --> 00:38:31,382
Speaker 3: So it's really he could be responsible for an untold

659
00:38:31,422 --> 00:38:32,182
Speaker 3: number of victims.

660
00:38:33,462 --> 00:38:33,942
Speaker 2: Wow.

661
00:38:34,542 --> 00:38:38,022
Speaker 1: So for the moment, he's been charged with six motives

662
00:38:38,062 --> 00:38:41,422
Speaker 1: if my account is correct, which hat denies. I should

663
00:38:41,462 --> 00:38:43,782
Speaker 1: point out he is yet to stand trial. Where are

664
00:38:43,822 --> 00:38:46,262
Speaker 1: we cult wise, because we was still waiting for a trial,

665
00:38:46,302 --> 00:38:50,222
Speaker 1: he was supposed to already have started one.

666
00:38:49,662 --> 00:38:53,182
Speaker 3: Before these additional charges were filed. The judge was trying

667
00:38:53,222 --> 00:38:55,582
Speaker 3: to speed things along when he was only charged with

668
00:38:55,582 --> 00:38:59,862
Speaker 3: a Gilgo four and they were trying to expedite the discovery,

669
00:38:59,902 --> 00:39:02,302
Speaker 3: which means the prosecution handing over all the evidence in

670
00:39:02,382 --> 00:39:05,942
Speaker 3: the defense so they could prepare. But now that victims

671
00:39:06,022 --> 00:39:09,302
Speaker 3: keep getting added, it just gets less and less realistic

672
00:39:09,342 --> 00:39:12,102
Speaker 3: that this trial is going to happen in a timely manner.

673
00:39:12,702 --> 00:39:16,222
Speaker 3: And he's waived his right to a speedy trial, and

674
00:39:17,022 --> 00:39:19,822
Speaker 3: it could be a lot longer because you know, as

675
00:39:19,862 --> 00:39:22,342
Speaker 3: recently as last week the DA held a press conference,

676
00:39:22,382 --> 00:39:25,262
Speaker 3: they're still trying to identify some of these victims with

677
00:39:25,342 --> 00:39:28,662
Speaker 3: the hopes of further connecting Rex Yuerman to them. And

678
00:39:28,702 --> 00:39:32,022
Speaker 3: that's actively occurring. I mean, this is something they're working

679
00:39:32,062 --> 00:39:34,862
Speaker 3: on day and night behind the scenes. So they may

680
00:39:34,902 --> 00:39:37,062
Speaker 3: continue to charge him with victims, and that would just

681
00:39:37,662 --> 00:39:40,782
Speaker 3: add more time between when a trial could occur, because

682
00:39:40,822 --> 00:39:42,982
Speaker 3: then his defense will have to prepare further.

683
00:39:43,902 --> 00:39:45,062
Speaker 2: Well, that could make ease.

684
00:39:45,262 --> 00:39:48,302
Speaker 3: Really it could mean years. Yeah, I mean we're already

685
00:39:48,422 --> 00:39:50,142
Speaker 3: at one year having passed.

686
00:39:51,102 --> 00:39:53,102
Speaker 1: Is his wife supporting him in all of these.

687
00:39:53,902 --> 00:39:57,022
Speaker 3: So at first it seemed like no, she filed for

688
00:39:57,062 --> 00:40:01,502
Speaker 3: divorce almost right away. It's hard to know exactly what

689
00:40:01,542 --> 00:40:04,902
Speaker 3: the thinking is. You know, she has been spotted at

690
00:40:04,942 --> 00:40:07,782
Speaker 3: court appearances. She brought their dog to the last appearance.

691
00:40:08,742 --> 00:40:11,462
Speaker 3: She has said things like I want to see how

692
00:40:11,462 --> 00:40:14,542
Speaker 3: it all plays out, and it's until proven guilty. You know,

693
00:40:14,662 --> 00:40:19,822
Speaker 3: I think, I think there's a lot of psychological implications

694
00:40:19,862 --> 00:40:22,702
Speaker 3: here with how hard it might be to come to

695
00:40:22,822 --> 00:40:25,822
Speaker 3: terms with this reality. So I try to reserve judgment.

696
00:40:25,902 --> 00:40:30,822
Speaker 3: But it appears that she's loosely supporting him. She's still

697
00:40:30,902 --> 00:40:31,822
Speaker 3: visiting him in jail.

698
00:40:32,302 --> 00:40:34,982
Speaker 1: We know that, but we also know she signed a

699
00:40:35,022 --> 00:40:35,702
Speaker 1: media deal.

700
00:40:36,262 --> 00:40:40,422
Speaker 3: Yes, so there is a documentary, a multi part documentary,

701
00:40:40,902 --> 00:40:44,422
Speaker 3: and yeah, she and her daughter Victoria are participating. I

702
00:40:44,462 --> 00:40:46,982
Speaker 3: also sat for an interview for it. It's going to

703
00:40:47,062 --> 00:40:50,582
Speaker 3: feature their perspective in terms of like their shock or

704
00:40:51,542 --> 00:40:53,222
Speaker 3: you know. I'm interested to see what they've said.

705
00:40:53,222 --> 00:40:53,622
Speaker 2: I have no.

706
00:40:53,622 --> 00:40:57,222
Speaker 3: Idea, but I do know that this is going to

707
00:40:57,222 --> 00:40:59,142
Speaker 3: be a long process. Them coming to terms with this

708
00:40:59,262 --> 00:41:02,182
Speaker 3: reality is not going to be an overnight thing. And

709
00:41:03,102 --> 00:41:07,382
Speaker 3: they've said that this was a financial decision. They have

710
00:41:07,462 --> 00:41:12,422
Speaker 3: no money. She is in remission from cancer treatments, and

711
00:41:12,822 --> 00:41:15,422
Speaker 3: the suspicion is that this was financially motivated decision to

712
00:41:15,462 --> 00:41:18,422
Speaker 3: participate in this documentary.

713
00:41:22,022 --> 00:41:24,822
Speaker 1: After the break, we learn what's happening now with Rex

714
00:41:24,902 --> 00:41:35,462
Speaker 1: Human's trial. The trial might be years away, but the

715
00:41:35,502 --> 00:41:38,582
Speaker 1: prosecution has still been putting forward evidence as part of

716
00:41:38,622 --> 00:41:41,062
Speaker 1: court proceedings, so we have been getting a few more

717
00:41:41,062 --> 00:41:44,902
Speaker 1: details there about the allegations. Can you tell us about

718
00:41:44,942 --> 00:41:48,742
Speaker 1: the kind of digital web and the ways that they

719
00:41:48,782 --> 00:41:51,702
Speaker 1: accuse Human of trying to contact victims.

720
00:41:53,182 --> 00:41:58,222
Speaker 3: Yes, So it's been reported that he has over one

721
00:41:58,302 --> 00:42:02,022
Speaker 3: hundred burner phones, which are sort of they're called ghost phones.

722
00:42:02,062 --> 00:42:04,262
Speaker 3: Sometimes you know, it's a phone you go into seven

723
00:42:04,262 --> 00:42:05,942
Speaker 3: to eleven and you buy and then you buy minutes

724
00:42:05,942 --> 00:42:08,622
Speaker 3: for that you can purchase anonymously and as not tied

725
00:42:08,942 --> 00:42:10,862
Speaker 3: because like a regular cell phone is tied to a

726
00:42:10,902 --> 00:42:14,062
Speaker 3: credit check, at least here in the US, is tied

727
00:42:14,062 --> 00:42:16,302
Speaker 3: to you know, you need an ID for it, you

728
00:42:16,342 --> 00:42:20,262
Speaker 3: need an address. It's directly tied to your identity. These phones,

729
00:42:20,502 --> 00:42:22,022
Speaker 3: you can have as many as you want. You can

730
00:42:22,062 --> 00:42:26,062
Speaker 3: adminutes to them. You cannot, So he was contacting victims

731
00:42:26,062 --> 00:42:32,062
Speaker 3: that way. He was contacting victims through Craigslist, using aliases

732
00:42:32,262 --> 00:42:35,862
Speaker 3: and using alias emails, several of them, and he was

733
00:42:35,902 --> 00:42:39,822
Speaker 3: doing this through these burner phones, so these emails weren't

734
00:42:39,822 --> 00:42:42,142
Speaker 3: connected to his IP at his home or his office,

735
00:42:42,302 --> 00:42:44,022
Speaker 3: or connected to his personal computers.

736
00:42:44,062 --> 00:42:44,782
Speaker 2: He was doing this.

737
00:42:44,702 --> 00:42:48,302
Speaker 3: All on these anonymous phones. We know that he was

738
00:42:48,342 --> 00:42:52,342
Speaker 3: also using these phones for things like Tinder. You know,

739
00:42:52,502 --> 00:42:56,742
Speaker 3: years later he continued doing this sort of dance with

740
00:42:56,822 --> 00:43:02,422
Speaker 3: these electronics. He was also using digital shredding software and

741
00:43:02,462 --> 00:43:04,862
Speaker 3: that was an effort to erase you know, some of

742
00:43:04,862 --> 00:43:08,622
Speaker 3: this digital evidence. A lot of the Google searches implicate

743
00:43:08,702 --> 00:43:12,942
Speaker 3: him in really strange ways. He was googling podcasts, he

744
00:43:13,022 --> 00:43:15,862
Speaker 3: was googling my podcast about the case, he was watching

745
00:43:15,902 --> 00:43:18,542
Speaker 3: TV shows about the case. A lot of the evidence

746
00:43:18,582 --> 00:43:22,062
Speaker 3: they have on him is this digital evidence, and it's

747
00:43:22,182 --> 00:43:24,542
Speaker 3: very compelling when it's all laid out and put together.

748
00:43:25,662 --> 00:43:26,462
Speaker 2: They also talk.

749
00:43:26,342 --> 00:43:30,742
Speaker 1: About a supposed planning document or blueprint, which is quite chilling.

750
00:43:31,742 --> 00:43:31,982
Speaker 2: Yeah.

751
00:43:32,022 --> 00:43:36,622
Speaker 3: The planning document, I think is sort of what ups

752
00:43:36,622 --> 00:43:40,702
Speaker 3: the ante for people who are familiar with serial killer cases.

753
00:43:40,742 --> 00:43:44,022
Speaker 3: I mean, I've never seen something so horrifying in my life.

754
00:43:44,062 --> 00:43:47,222
Speaker 3: And basically it's a word document that was created in

755
00:43:47,262 --> 00:43:51,382
Speaker 3: two thousand and updated several times between two thousand and

756
00:43:51,422 --> 00:43:55,302
Speaker 3: two thousand and three, and on this document he basically

757
00:43:55,422 --> 00:44:01,382
Speaker 3: talks about his pre planning for the act, the act itself,

758
00:44:01,462 --> 00:44:04,582
Speaker 3: and what he does afterwards, you know, clean up notes,

759
00:44:04,582 --> 00:44:06,822
Speaker 3: and it's essentially a to do list of items he

760
00:44:06,862 --> 00:44:09,622
Speaker 3: needs to buy, things he needs to do to ensure

761
00:44:09,702 --> 00:44:12,542
Speaker 3: that he's going to get away with this, car maintenance,

762
00:44:13,622 --> 00:44:17,702
Speaker 3: what to destroy, getting his story straight. He has notes

763
00:44:17,782 --> 00:44:23,062
Speaker 3: on there about scouting dumping ground locations, scouting locations of

764
00:44:23,142 --> 00:44:27,302
Speaker 3: picking the victims up, making sure there's no surveillance cameras,

765
00:44:28,142 --> 00:44:31,902
Speaker 3: how to wash the victims' bodies, to check for fibers,

766
00:44:32,382 --> 00:44:36,422
Speaker 3: to scrub for fingerprints, what kind of torture he wants

767
00:44:36,462 --> 00:44:40,022
Speaker 3: to do. He also had notes about reading the book

768
00:44:40,142 --> 00:44:42,902
Speaker 3: mind Hunter, which was written by John Douglas, the famed

769
00:44:42,982 --> 00:44:46,662
Speaker 3: FBI profiler who essentially developed modern day profiling in the FBI.

770
00:44:47,382 --> 00:44:51,342
Speaker 3: He basically read John Douglas's book mind Hunter and took

771
00:44:51,422 --> 00:44:55,302
Speaker 3: notes about how to confuse and mislead law enforcement so

772
00:44:55,342 --> 00:44:59,342
Speaker 3: he could further get away with this. So it's really

773
00:44:59,382 --> 00:45:03,982
Speaker 3: just a chilling glimpse into not only the monster we're

774
00:45:03,982 --> 00:45:06,982
Speaker 3: dealing with, but also what these victims went through.

775
00:45:07,222 --> 00:45:10,142
Speaker 1: And also the level of evidence we have in this

776
00:45:11,782 --> 00:45:15,302
Speaker 1: Do we know what his defense plans to use or

777
00:45:15,382 --> 00:45:17,462
Speaker 1: do to try and aggie he's case.

778
00:45:18,742 --> 00:45:21,062
Speaker 2: We don't know what they will ultimately do.

779
00:45:21,222 --> 00:45:24,622
Speaker 3: But what Michael Brown, rex Human's defense attorney has said

780
00:45:24,702 --> 00:45:28,622
Speaker 3: during press conferences is that there were these other suspects

781
00:45:29,262 --> 00:45:31,262
Speaker 3: that law enforcement.

782
00:45:30,862 --> 00:45:32,142
Speaker 2: Had their eye on.

783
00:45:33,702 --> 00:45:36,182
Speaker 3: To the point where it was rumored that an arrest

784
00:45:36,302 --> 00:45:38,462
Speaker 3: was coming, and this was somebody who's not rex Uerman.

785
00:45:38,582 --> 00:45:39,302
Speaker 2: This is someone else.

786
00:45:39,302 --> 00:45:42,702
Speaker 3: They had their eyeon with the initials that matched these

787
00:45:42,742 --> 00:45:44,742
Speaker 3: initials that were found on a piece of evidence, which

788
00:45:44,782 --> 00:45:49,982
Speaker 3: is WM. So there was a belt found it was

789
00:45:49,982 --> 00:45:53,582
Speaker 3: found with Maureene Brainerd Barnes that had the words WM

790
00:45:54,062 --> 00:45:57,502
Speaker 3: carved in the back of it, and for a long

791
00:45:57,542 --> 00:46:00,062
Speaker 3: time until they got the tip about the Chevy Avalanche

792
00:46:00,062 --> 00:46:01,142
Speaker 3: which led to rex Ureerman.

793
00:46:01,622 --> 00:46:02,382
Speaker 2: The assumption is.

794
00:46:02,342 --> 00:46:05,862
Speaker 3: That that's what the police were really focusing their search on.

795
00:46:05,942 --> 00:46:09,942
Speaker 3: These initials. So we know that Michael Brown is he's

796
00:46:09,942 --> 00:46:13,102
Speaker 3: going to point to these other suspects as potentially being

797
00:46:13,142 --> 00:46:15,102
Speaker 3: the real suspects, and they are going to try to

798
00:46:15,142 --> 00:46:19,542
Speaker 3: poke holes in the hair evidence because hair testing forever

799
00:46:19,902 --> 00:46:22,222
Speaker 3: has been done with nuclear DNA and done with the

800
00:46:22,302 --> 00:46:25,902
Speaker 3: root of the hair. This testing that was done with

801
00:46:25,942 --> 00:46:28,502
Speaker 3: these hairs was done with mitochondrial DNA testing, So it's

802
00:46:28,542 --> 00:46:29,782
Speaker 3: like very groundbreaking.

803
00:46:30,582 --> 00:46:33,062
Speaker 1: Am I right in saying that he plans to also

804
00:46:33,142 --> 00:46:36,422
Speaker 1: bring in that police chaef we mentioned earlier James book.

805
00:46:37,502 --> 00:46:39,662
Speaker 3: So it's unclear as to whether he'll actually be called

806
00:46:39,662 --> 00:46:44,862
Speaker 3: to testify, but Michael Brown, rex Ywerman's attorney has requested

807
00:46:45,982 --> 00:46:49,222
Speaker 3: all of James Brooke's files to review, so I'm sure

808
00:46:49,222 --> 00:46:54,342
Speaker 3: he plans to point to negligence that was done in

809
00:46:54,382 --> 00:47:00,382
Speaker 3: this case as a way to explain why potentially this

810
00:47:00,502 --> 00:47:04,902
Speaker 3: evidence is not reliable. Right, this was an investigation led

811
00:47:04,942 --> 00:47:08,422
Speaker 3: by a corrupt criminal. How can we trust the validity

812
00:47:08,462 --> 00:47:10,782
Speaker 3: of this evidence? Which I think I think is the

813
00:47:10,782 --> 00:47:15,342
Speaker 3: biggest shame of what James Burke has done. Police work

814
00:47:15,382 --> 00:47:19,142
Speaker 3: is supposed to be done with integrity, so that convictions

815
00:47:19,542 --> 00:47:24,702
Speaker 3: can be found with integrity, you know, and it's really

816
00:47:24,822 --> 00:47:29,102
Speaker 3: a shame that he's cast doubt on portions of this investigation.

817
00:47:30,662 --> 00:47:33,822
Speaker 1: You are so daping this investigation and it looks like

818
00:47:33,902 --> 00:47:38,782
Speaker 1: it's going to keep unraveling. Does that feel as a

819
00:47:38,822 --> 00:47:42,502
Speaker 1: journalist overwhelming for you? Exciting a you kind of nervous

820
00:47:42,542 --> 00:47:43,982
Speaker 1: as to what else might come out.

821
00:47:44,822 --> 00:47:47,382
Speaker 3: I'm excited because there are so many people who are

822
00:47:47,462 --> 00:47:51,302
Speaker 3: still seeking answers and victims who are still seeking to

823
00:47:51,342 --> 00:47:54,542
Speaker 3: have their identities back. I think there is more bad

824
00:47:54,622 --> 00:47:57,942
Speaker 3: news to come. I think there is more to be

825
00:47:58,422 --> 00:48:01,702
Speaker 3: learned about the depths of this person's depravity. But I

826
00:48:01,742 --> 00:48:05,662
Speaker 3: think there's a lot of relief and justice to be

827
00:48:05,742 --> 00:48:09,502
Speaker 3: found on this journey as well. People who don't know

828
00:48:09,502 --> 00:48:12,382
Speaker 3: what happened to their family members who will finally get

829
00:48:12,382 --> 00:48:18,302
Speaker 3: those answers, People who have been wanting justice for twenty

830
00:48:18,382 --> 00:48:20,662
Speaker 3: years who are going.

831
00:48:20,462 --> 00:48:20,942
Speaker 2: To get it.

832
00:48:21,422 --> 00:48:25,142
Speaker 3: So I think hopefully we're only on the upswing, and

833
00:48:25,582 --> 00:48:28,062
Speaker 3: I just hope that we're able to connect more people

834
00:48:28,102 --> 00:48:32,982
Speaker 3: to this serial offender because we don't believe Sandra Costia

835
00:48:33,102 --> 00:48:35,462
Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety three was his first victim. We just don't,

836
00:48:35,502 --> 00:48:38,422
Speaker 3: and we don't believe there were none between her and

837
00:48:38,502 --> 00:48:41,142
Speaker 3: Valerie mac and Jessica Taylor. So who else is there?

838
00:48:41,182 --> 00:48:41,382
Speaker 2: You know?

839
00:48:41,502 --> 00:48:45,382
Speaker 3: I think it's exciting that these investigators, these really good

840
00:48:45,382 --> 00:48:48,662
Speaker 3: investigators now who who care about this case, are going

841
00:48:48,702 --> 00:48:52,182
Speaker 3: to connect all these dots and bring all this hopefully

842
00:48:52,262 --> 00:48:56,622
Speaker 3: you know, closure, I hate that word closure, but bring justice.

843
00:48:56,822 --> 00:49:01,022
Speaker 1: What about Long Island itself. It's used in like the title,

844
00:49:01,182 --> 00:49:04,542
Speaker 1: you know, alleged Long Island serial killer. It's such a

845
00:49:04,582 --> 00:49:07,582
Speaker 1: spotlight on it. Has it tarnished the area? I mean,

846
00:49:07,582 --> 00:49:10,622
Speaker 1: it's your fuller home. Would they ever be able to

847
00:49:10,662 --> 00:49:13,222
Speaker 1: come out from underneath the white of these.

848
00:49:14,022 --> 00:49:17,142
Speaker 3: It hasn't tarnished the area, but it's definitely shone a

849
00:49:17,222 --> 00:49:21,462
Speaker 3: light on the area's shortcomings, some of the systemic failures

850
00:49:22,142 --> 00:49:25,942
Speaker 3: that have been occurring since the nineteen hundred's and earlier.

851
00:49:26,582 --> 00:49:30,062
Speaker 3: There are a lot of marginalized people, a lot of

852
00:49:30,062 --> 00:49:34,982
Speaker 3: oppressed people, a lot of attitudes about sex workers, people

853
00:49:35,022 --> 00:49:39,662
Speaker 3: addicted to drugs. I think it's really brought an understanding

854
00:49:39,942 --> 00:49:45,022
Speaker 3: to the people who have been in power and what

855
00:49:45,622 --> 00:49:49,302
Speaker 3: they thought was important. This case was neglected largely because

856
00:49:49,342 --> 00:49:52,862
Speaker 3: these women were in sex work, and I think that's

857
00:49:52,862 --> 00:49:54,902
Speaker 3: the only reason they were able to get away with

858
00:49:54,982 --> 00:49:59,582
Speaker 3: neglecting this case to this degree. So the area itself tarnished, No,

859
00:49:59,982 --> 00:50:04,142
Speaker 3: but it really is like a microcosm for what is

860
00:50:04,182 --> 00:50:06,222
Speaker 3: being talked about on a larger scale now.

861
00:50:11,582 --> 00:50:14,142
Speaker 1: Thanks to Alexis for assisting us to tell this story.

862
00:50:14,982 --> 00:50:18,062
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Muma mea podcast hosted and

863
00:50:18,102 --> 00:50:21,182
Speaker 1: produced by me Jemma Bath and Tali Blackman, with audio

864
00:50:21,222 --> 00:50:24,222
Speaker 1: design by Scott Stronik. I'll be back next week with

865
00:50:24,302 --> 00:50:25,702
Speaker 1: another true crime conversation.