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Speaker 1: So you're listening to another Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land. We

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Speaker 2: have recorded this podcast on the Gatagul people of the

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Speaker 2: Eur Nation. We pay our respects to their elders past

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Speaker 2: and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and

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Speaker 2: Torres Rate islander cultures.

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Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Analie's todd, host of Mamma MIA's parenting podcast

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Speaker 3: This Glorious Mess. I'm a single mum to two twin

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Speaker 3: boys and a longtime listener of Hell. I have a

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Speaker 3: teenager bracing myself for the years ahead. I'm popping into

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Speaker 3: your feed today to share an episode of This Glorious

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Speaker 3: Mess that I think you'll really enjoy. Your kids might

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Speaker 3: be a bit older and you're back in the routine

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Speaker 3: of life, work, kids, chores. But how's your relationship? Has

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Speaker 3: it started to feel more like your roommates and partners

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Speaker 3: or lovers? In this week's episode, we explore the warning

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Speaker 3: signs of slipping into the room mate face and how

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Speaker 3: to stay connected with your partner. We even wrap up

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Speaker 3: with a little tune to bring some light and shade

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Speaker 3: to the conversation.

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Speaker 4: Hope you enjoy it. Hello and welcome to this glorious mess.

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Speaker 3: We're embracing the chaos together. We're ditching the judgment. I'm

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Speaker 3: Analis todd and fifty percent of the time I live alone,

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Speaker 3: no roommates, not even teeny tiny ones, just me.

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Speaker 5: I'm teaking it tollly, and I have so many roommates.

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Speaker 5: My house is basically a giant game of musical beds,

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Speaker 5: and not in the swinging kind. I'm talking about my

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Speaker 5: three little kids and husband. And husband's there as well,

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Speaker 5: but between us, all new bed, new night. You don't

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Speaker 5: even know who you're waking up next to. It's Lucky

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Speaker 5: Dip every.

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Speaker 4: Day, just without the keys in the bowl.

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Speaker 3: So today on the show, we're talking about the roommate

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Speaker 3: face of relationship.

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Speaker 4: Sure, what is it? The signs you might be in one,

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Speaker 4: And we're going to chat to a dad about his experience.

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Speaker 3: Of the roommate phase from his first marriage and the

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Speaker 3: steps he's taking to ensure that he doesn't fall into

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Speaker 3: the same patterns with his new wife.

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Speaker 1: Looks.

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Speaker 5: So, I feel like we've all Even if you're not

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Speaker 5: there now, I feel like you've been there, whether it's

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Speaker 5: been fleeting or you know, a month or a year,

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Speaker 5: you've been there. It's either made or broken you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But we're going to get into the nitty gritty of

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Speaker 3: what it is a little bit later. But first, here's

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Speaker 3: what's happening in my group chat. So Tea's there was

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Speaker 3: a viral thread on Reddit. You know you love a

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Speaker 3: viral I do. I love a thread. It's been lighting

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Speaker 3: up my group chat because a woman asks the Reddit

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Speaker 3: group chat, which is the Internet, if she's overreacting and

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Speaker 3: she's considering divorce. So her husband secretly ate her meals

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Speaker 3: that she had prepped for herself post surgery recovery. She'd

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Speaker 3: been on a liquid diet and was looking forward to

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Speaker 3: eating solid And he originally blamed their eleven year old

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Speaker 3: child and pretended he did, like the dog ate my

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Speaker 3: homework the kid surgery meal prepped meals, but she realized

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Speaker 3: it couldn't be true because it was like healthy things

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Speaker 3: like salmon, and their eleven year old doesn't eat that.

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Speaker 4: And when he finally admitted it.

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Speaker 3: He said it was because he was too bored and

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Speaker 3: tired to make his lunches for work. My group chat

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Speaker 3: has decided this is a divorceable offense.

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Speaker 4: Do you agree?

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Speaker 1: It's a very selfish thing to do.

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Speaker 3: The optics aren't good. There's a lot of red flags here.

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Speaker 3: It's definitely flaggable. I can't make the decision, but he's

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Speaker 3: a line approved, so TIGS. There was a Mama Mere

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Speaker 3: article that went viral recently. Again, it was by back Day,

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Speaker 3: and she had some advice on how to survive the

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Speaker 3: room mate phase by relationship coach Meg's Dixon. So what

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Speaker 3: is the room mate phase? It sounds it is what

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Speaker 3: it does the team as I'm saying, So, it's when

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Speaker 3: your partner has become more like a friend and you're

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Speaker 3: just two people who happen to live in the same

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Speaker 3: house and share responsibilities. Life has become comfortable and it

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Speaker 3: can make it really easy to feel complacent.

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Speaker 5: Now they've even referred to this as roommates syndrome.

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Speaker 4: I think it is a syndrome.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I wonder if there's variables of this, as I

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Speaker 5: mentioned earlier, like, you know, can it be fleeting, can

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Speaker 5: it be you know, when there's a newborn. How long

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Speaker 5: is too long to be in that phase? Because I'm

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Speaker 5: sure every single relationship would go through this phase, kids

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Speaker 5: or no kids. There's sometimes where you're busy, I'm busy,

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Speaker 5: where ships in the night, we barely see each other,

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Speaker 5: we haven't had a meal together for a while. Things

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Speaker 5: are a lot at the moment, but then you just go, oh,

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Speaker 5: you know what, we're just disconnected and we're roommates. Let's

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Speaker 5: call it quits when is too long.

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Speaker 3: As the cautionary tale of the only divorced person in

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Speaker 3: the room, I would say that just in general, my

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Speaker 3: advice is any issue in a relationship or a marriage,

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Speaker 3: if it gets or goes left untreated, head in the sand,

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Speaker 3: it just shouldn't be. Things need to be tackled, Things

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Speaker 3: need to be dealt with and worked on. When you've

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Speaker 3: got really young children, that trenchy phase as we call

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Speaker 3: it in the trenches, roommate syndrome or phase, definitely, I

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Speaker 3: would say peaks because you're just so busy and tired,

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Speaker 3: and the kids are so physically demanding, and so all

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Speaker 3: of your energy goes into taking care of the little people,

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Speaker 3: and it can be really hard to fit in things

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Speaker 3: like date night and were you just literally a conversations

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Speaker 3: of logistics.

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Speaker 5: And I'm sure to many listeners roommates is even fun.

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Speaker 5: That's a step up from housemates, because you know, especially

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Speaker 5: when you're in that trench period. And like I mentioned,

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Speaker 5: sometimes we're musical beds. Sometimes my husband's not even my roommate,

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Speaker 5: he's just my housemate. I'm like, babe, Like I don't

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Speaker 5: even know what room he's ended up in, what bet

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Speaker 5: he's in, you know.

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Speaker 1: So it does get really tricky.

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Speaker 3: So these are some of the common signs you might

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Speaker 3: be experiencing roommates syndrome. Okay, so struggling to communicate, and

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Speaker 3: that's obviously more than just surface logistic level. It's actually

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Speaker 3: having those connected conversations.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, not just like how is your day.

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Speaker 4: And the washing needs and the dry cleaning and the.

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Speaker 5: So it needs to be things that you wouldn't actually

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Speaker 5: talk to your roommate about.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's the intimacy is the dividing factor of the

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Speaker 3: roommates and relate what.

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Speaker 1: Are you actually communicating about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, obviously, feeling less intimate, that's an obvious one. Feeling

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Speaker 3: like there's no affection or romance.

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Speaker 4: I struggle with.

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Speaker 3: This, feeling like your lives aside from your mutual obligations

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Speaker 3: and a lot of time obviously that's children are separate.

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Speaker 3: I feel like having a level of independence is a

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Speaker 3: good thing, you shouldn't be each other's everything.

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Speaker 5: And I think in this case, it's not like, oh,

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Speaker 5: we shouldn't be doing those separate things. It's more like

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Speaker 5: I have no idea what you're doing. Like you kind

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Speaker 5: of get home at the end of the day and

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Speaker 5: you're like, how is your day? How is your day?

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Speaker 5: And you're like, good, it's just such separate life.

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Speaker 3: Like I think as well to use like a Gray's

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Speaker 3: Anatomy analogy, it's like they need to feel like your person.

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Speaker 3: They're the first person that you want to tell the

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Speaker 3: exciting stuff yeah, and whinge about the minutia of your day.

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Speaker 3: And I'm sure a lot of mums who are at

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Speaker 3: home raising little kids while they're partner, or dads while

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Speaker 3: their partner's working. This can sometimes be a real side

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Speaker 3: effect of that lack of communication, because you know, they're

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Speaker 3: off working and socializing and dealing with people and having conversations,

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Speaker 3: and they'll come home and you'll be like, how's your day,

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Speaker 3: and they've got stories to tell, and if you're at

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Speaker 3: home with baby or you've been to the park, you're

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Speaker 3: kind of like, not much to talk.

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Speaker 1: He ate his soup for lunch. You kind of run

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Speaker 1: out of things to say when you're in that period.

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Speaker 1: I've definitely been there.

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Speaker 3: So another one of the signs is feeling like the

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Speaker 3: relationship isn't a priority. It should be a priority to

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Speaker 3: make time away from the children. The house so hard though.

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Speaker 1: Yes, feeling like you have support or.

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Speaker 3: Feeling like you don't have support is the sign that

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Speaker 3: this could be roommate syndrome or phase. Yeah, Okay, What

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Speaker 3: I want to know as someone who is divorced, who

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Speaker 3: is in a honeymoon phase in a new relationship, how

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Speaker 3: do you not let that go? Because I don't want

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Speaker 3: to let it go.

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Speaker 5: And it's gonna I hate to be glass half full,

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Speaker 5: but empty.

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Speaker 6: That's empty.

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Speaker 5: I think we all think that the honeymoon period's going

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Speaker 5: to last, don't we.

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Speaker 3: But what I would like to find out from our

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Speaker 3: next guest, Tom, who has been through a divorce, who

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Speaker 3: is remarried and had young children with someone else, how has.

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Speaker 1: That was lucky? You had a practice run, didn't he?

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Speaker 4: Well, that's what I'm hoping I did.

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Speaker 1: Well, see this is this is this is my theory. Right.

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Speaker 5: So for my husband and I we moved pretty quickly

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Speaker 5: like we're like honeymoon phase and then gauge, which is

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Speaker 5: like still honeymoon phase.

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Speaker 1: And then a year later married.

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Speaker 5: By our first wedding anniversary we had two kids, but

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Speaker 5: our second wedding anniversary we had three kids.

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Speaker 1: We were on like the roller coaster of life.

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Speaker 5: And so I think that's come down of that this

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Speaker 5: is the best and it's going so fast and it's amazing,

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Speaker 5: and you know, not saying that the kids are a

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Speaker 5: low in life, but it's a lot when you're looking

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Speaker 5: at your relationship while having kids, especially my case three

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Speaker 5: kids really close together one hundred percent, the trenches affect

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Speaker 5: this so much.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the most critical stage because in most partnerships

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Speaker 3: it is gendered, and you've got domestic inequality, you've got exhaustion,

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Speaker 3: and those combinations of things then bottle up to resentment. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and that's when you're not having those conversations and you're

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Speaker 3: not communicating about the issues. That's when you can slip

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Speaker 3: into the room mate, because you're just not addressing the elephant.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and it does come down to both of you

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Speaker 5: as well. You're both in this relationship. If one of

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Speaker 5: you is the ones overworked, or one of you feels

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Speaker 5: like the other needs a break from the kids.

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Speaker 1: Like, that's what I.

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Speaker 5: Always say to Jason whenever we're having issues, I'm like,

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Speaker 5: the only ones that can fix this is us, right, Like,

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Speaker 5: we are responsible for our relationship. So if we want

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Speaker 5: to do better, we need to book a date night,

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Speaker 5: or we need to go away for a couple of days,

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Speaker 5: or we need to have a conversation.

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Speaker 1: So I'm interested to speak to our guest today. Who

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Speaker 1: is a male? A male?

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Speaker 7: A male on this glorious Oh my god, our father, Well,

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Speaker 7: I never he's going to come in and we're going

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Speaker 7: to hear what he does to avoid room mate, housemate?

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Speaker 1: What are we roommate?

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Speaker 3: Roommate face? And we're saving relationships around Australia. Glorious mess.

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Speaker 1: It's serious. So we're a.

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Speaker 4: Big family here at this glorious mess.

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Speaker 3: And we've invited one of our pod producers today.

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Speaker 4: Who is a boy or man?

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Speaker 1: A man?

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Speaker 4: He's a man, he's a male for something fun?

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Speaker 3: I'm father, Yeah, so Tom, welcome to this glorious miss Hello.

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Speaker 8: Hello, so good to finally say good eight to you guys.

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Speaker 8: I'm an avid listener.

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Speaker 1: Now we've got you and we're gonna pick your brain.

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Speaker 3: Yes, we want your male perspective. So let's just set

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Speaker 3: a little bit up about you, Tommy. So you are

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Speaker 3: a father of three.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, so it's all happening in my house. I'll give

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Speaker 8: you the quick spells. So I've got my seventeen year

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Speaker 8: old daughter, Nala. I had her when I was so young.

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Speaker 8: I was nineteen years old, so we've grown up together

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Speaker 8: and we're really close.

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Speaker 6: So that's amazing for us.

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Speaker 8: My two little ones, Donnie and Join the're five and three,

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Speaker 8: and yeah, we're right in it, like they've reached a

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Speaker 8: stage now where they're kind of collaborating. I'm always hearing

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Speaker 8: these kind of whispers around the corner, like you run that.

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Speaker 6: Way, I'll go that way. You throw the water on him, man,

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Speaker 6: he won't catch us.

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Speaker 8: And that's kind of what I'm competing with my lovely wife, Jessica,

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Speaker 8: who is, to be honest, a lot smarter than me.

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Speaker 6: And for her, I'm.

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Speaker 8: Probably just like this project that she's working on and

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Speaker 8: she's being patient.

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Speaker 6: So that's me.

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Speaker 3: And so Tommy take us through. So you had Nyla

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Speaker 3: and you were very very young. You're not currently with

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Speaker 3: her mother? Yeah, yeah, so that was your first marriage.

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Speaker 6: Was my first love. We didn't get married, it's.

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Speaker 3: The same same you have a kid together, the rest

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Speaker 3: is paperwork, that's right.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, it's all admin from that point. But we had

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Speaker 8: Nala so young, but it was really a blessing in disguise.

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Speaker 3: So in that first relationship where you had a child

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Speaker 3: with someone, would you say that you fell into what

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Speaker 3: we're sort of coining and has been coined the roommate

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Speaker 3: fase and the relationship?

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Speaker 8: Oh man, Yeah, that is really deep for me because

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Speaker 8: I think that would have been the purpose the reason

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Speaker 8: why we ended up separating. And we're great friends now,

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Speaker 8: of course, but we definitely fell into that, and my

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Speaker 8: wife and I now we're so hyper aware of it

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Speaker 8: because we've both been through that. If you compare when

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Speaker 8: you first fall in love and you're kind of like

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Speaker 8: drunk on love, comparing to those signs.

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Speaker 6: When Jess and I first got.

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Speaker 8: Together, we were myopic and oblivious to everything around us,

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Speaker 8: hooking up everywhere, and then to now we've got these

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Speaker 8: little people who are trying to break your spirit, trying

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Speaker 8: to undermine your productivity everywhere, and those aren't conditions for

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Speaker 8: romance at all.

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Speaker 6: So yeah, we're definitely aware of that.

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Speaker 5: Since you are both so aware of it. What are

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Speaker 5: some of the things that you can know or like,

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Speaker 5: that's it, we're getting into a bad habit here, or

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Speaker 5: what are some of the signs and triggers I suppose

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Speaker 5: for you and how do you sort of counteract those?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, so a premise this for saying I'm not an expert.

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Speaker 8: In fact, I'm probably the opposite of an expert.

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Speaker 6: But yeah, once short.

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Speaker 8: Sign is you walk past them in the hallway and

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Speaker 8: they punch you in the shoulder.

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Speaker 6: And say, get a champ.

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Speaker 4: That's very friends Yeah, very friend zone.

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Speaker 8: But you know, intuitively, like if you feel that spark disappear.

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Speaker 8: And one thing that we've been trying to do that

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Speaker 8: I heard from this psychologist is called the six second kiss.

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Speaker 8: And as you get on in a relationship, you kind

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Speaker 8: of it's always very rush like maaha, like goodbye darling,

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Speaker 8: you see later. It's science that if you hold a

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Speaker 8: kiss for longer than six seconds, the oxytocin, which is

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Speaker 8: like that love chemical, goes dripping back through your brain.

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Speaker 8: And you know that's what you felt when you were

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Speaker 8: first in that honeymoon phase.

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Speaker 3: The six seconds is quite a long time, isn't it,

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Speaker 3: But that is I would say one of the most

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Speaker 3: common things is when you've been in a relationship for

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Speaker 3: a million years, you know, you still might get the

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Speaker 3: occasional bonkin. But one of the things that you stop doing,

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Speaker 3: and it's really common, is you stop making out, like

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Speaker 3: you don't make out anymore. And I feel like, if

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Speaker 3: that's the one thing you're saying that you and your

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Speaker 3: new wife hold onto, I think that's really great advice.

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Speaker 1: I have to laugh.

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Speaker 5: My husband, I saw this same theory about this six

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Speaker 5: second kiss, and which is also followed up with that

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Speaker 5: the six second kiss is equivalent to a twenty second

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Speaker 5: hug or cuddle, right right, But my husband got the

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Speaker 5: mixed up numbers. He's like, we've got a kiss for

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Speaker 5: twenty seconds, and I'm.

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Speaker 4: Like, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that.

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Speaker 5: No, I had to literally pull the thing off Instagram

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Speaker 5: back out again, and so no, see here as a

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Speaker 5: twenty second cuddle and a six second kiss.

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Speaker 8: Okay, yeah, yeah, sounds like he's learning as well. That's

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Speaker 8: apparently the science and it all kind of gets those

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Speaker 8: chemicals going. But one other thing which also trying to

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Speaker 8: work on is you know, when you're in especially when

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Speaker 8: you've got little people around all your conversations can become

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Speaker 8: administrative logistic chat, logistical shit like yeah, who's doing the

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Speaker 8: pick up doctor's points?

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Speaker 6: But when you're first together, you're not talking about any admin.

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Speaker 6: So we try.

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Speaker 8: To set apart half hour an hour every week where

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Speaker 8: we'll have a coffee, and our rule with the coffee

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Speaker 8: is no logistical chat.

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Speaker 6: You can only talk about things are passionate about.

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Speaker 8: And then it starts feel like you get your identity back,

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Speaker 8: because otherwise it feels like you're just a mom or

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Speaker 8: just a dad. And we're trying to do that, not

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Speaker 8: every week, but it's happening thing.

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Speaker 3: I think that's such good advice because one of the

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Speaker 3: signs that we went through when we talked about and

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Speaker 3: looked at what is the roommate phase. One of the

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Speaker 3: main things Obviously physical intimacy is obvious, but it's about

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Speaker 3: the lack of communication and about addressing anything outside those

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Speaker 3: day to day logistics chats. And I love that you

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Speaker 3: actually carve out time because everyone goes date night, date night,

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Speaker 3: but you actually carve out communication time.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and there is such a thing as intimate communication.

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Speaker 5: As you said, it's like, sure, communication can be fine

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Speaker 5: if all you're talking about is you know, the kids

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Speaker 5: soccer and swimming lessons and school drop offs, but that's

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Speaker 5: not intimate communication, really getting to chat about what each

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Speaker 5: other is up to and how you're feeling.

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Speaker 6: And it makes a big difference.

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Speaker 8: Anytime we've had like a passionate chat about anything outside

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Speaker 8: of our children and outside of logistics, you just feel better,

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Speaker 8: Like you feel like.

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Speaker 6: I am an actual person. I'm not just a shell

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Speaker 6: of a human being a parent.

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Speaker 3: But I think it's so important to connect as adults

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Speaker 3: in the relationship, not just as parents. And I think

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Speaker 3: that's what you're touching on, is it's so easy to

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Speaker 3: fall into the trap of just connecting about your children,

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Speaker 3: but actually connecting as people outside your children, and that's

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Speaker 3: how you keep the relationship alive.

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Speaker 4: According to our resident dad.

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Speaker 5: Expert, I think he is an absolute expert.

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Speaker 3: That's a thing, right, So if you've been through a

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Speaker 3: separation from someone you've had a child with, going into

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Speaker 3: it like that is like you don't want a little

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Speaker 3: people just run yeahbsolutely.

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Speaker 6: And it's the same with my seventeen year old daughter.

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Speaker 8: We joke about it, but she was like a practice

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Speaker 8: run too, So you learn as you go and.

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Speaker 1: Is she helpful with your younger two.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, she's really helpful. She loves cooking and.

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Speaker 1: Baby house babysitter.

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Speaker 4: Well, that also would be helping your relationship as well.

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Speaker 1: You've got helping the non roommate.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you've got living help.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely. Yeah, she's just entering the party face.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you're going to lose her soon.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, she's starting to disappear for days at a time,

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Speaker 8: which is you know she can do that?

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Speaker 5: Oh well, amazing And thank you for all your beautiful

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Speaker 5: insight into your life and how we can maybe avoid

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Speaker 5: the roommate face.

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Speaker 8: Thank you, And again a caveat. I'm not an expert,

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Speaker 8: but we're just trying our best.

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Speaker 5: We've enjoyed hearing from you, and I think we're going

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Speaker 5: to hear from you a little more.

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Speaker 3: Yes, we've got something special that we are going to

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Speaker 3: be getting from Tom. We're going to share it with

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Speaker 3: you as a special surprise for out this glorious mess.

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Speaker 1: I've not heard this yet.

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Speaker 3: Well you're going to love it, Tigus. You're gonna laugh,

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Speaker 3: you're gonna cry. Okay, Tom, you also are our resident

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Speaker 3: songwriter here at Muma Mia. You perform shows around the place,

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Speaker 3: so we set you a special assignment to write us

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Speaker 3: a song. Oh so it's about the mayhem of raising kids.

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Speaker 3: And just to make it harder, you need to include

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Speaker 3: the name of our show and the song. This was

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Speaker 3: the assignment, this glorious mess. Have you done the assignment, Tommy?

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Speaker 8: Yes, I'm very nervous about this, but it was a

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Speaker 8: bit of fun. So I brought my ukulele colong And

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Speaker 8: it's just about the anarchy of mornings. We find mornings

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Speaker 8: really hard in our house to actually get out the

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Speaker 8: bloody door, yeat and not me.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, well I've got this show name in there as well,

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Speaker 6: just for you.

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Speaker 1: I'm probably gonna go you ready, I am hormonal?

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Speaker 4: Okay, take it away to me go Tommy.

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Speaker 9: All right, it's chaos and our house again. The kids

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Speaker 9: are screaming round the bence. We're running late, barely dressed.

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Speaker 9: Oh it's a glorious mess, a washing pile.

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Speaker 6: Where's my key?

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Speaker 8: I've lost all productivity, but we're after school easy, pleased

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Speaker 8: with veggie.

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Speaker 6: Mite and cheese.

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Speaker 9: Feels like love when your public tantrums embarrassed me and

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Speaker 9: it musty love.

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Speaker 6: You live shit.

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Speaker 9: Everywhere for me to clean in the living room, the

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Speaker 9: kitchen too. But I'll carry you with a sawback stepped

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Speaker 9: on your lego my foot went crack.

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Speaker 6: I think it must be love.

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Speaker 8: Okay, this spits for our preteens and jen alphers.

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Speaker 6: My phone is missing.

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Speaker 9: Look behold, I've been out with a by ten year old.

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Speaker 6: My cop is full. I'm highly stressed. Oh it's a

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Speaker 6: glorious mess. He feels like love when.

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Speaker 9: You argue back about everything. And it must be love

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Speaker 9: when you put a mirror up to my behaviors and

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Speaker 9: cause me to have an existential crisis. But I'll drive

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Speaker 9: you around to any town when it's pissing down for

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Speaker 9: Saturday Sport. You've blogged my change, but then you got caught.

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Speaker 9: I think that this is quite challenging if I'm honest,

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Speaker 9: love yeah.

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Speaker 2: Tell me.

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Speaker 8: Thank you very much, relatable and as you can tell,

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Speaker 8: I'm under the put Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We're also a very very talented musician. Can I just.

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Speaker 6: Say thank you so much? Guys, it's been a pleasure.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to this glorious mess. We hope you

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00:22:05,170 --> 00:22:07,650
Speaker 3: enjoyed the show, and if you did, we'd love it

437
00:22:07,690 --> 00:22:10,490
Speaker 3: if you left us a rating or aw if you

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00:22:10,570 --> 00:22:14,050
Speaker 3: have a dilemma, you'd like Sarah Marie to resolve. You

439
00:22:14,090 --> 00:22:16,970
Speaker 3: can send us a voice note all the information there's

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Speaker 3: a link in the show notes.

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Speaker 5: Or you can even place for a quest for Tom.

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Speaker 5: If you would like your very own theme song, send

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Speaker 5: on through what you would like Tom to sing?

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Speaker 1: What a Star he Is?

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Speaker 5: This episode was produced by Grace Roubray with audio production

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Speaker 5: by Lou Hill And We'll see you next.

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Speaker 4: Week, see you next time.

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Speaker 3: I hope you liked this episode. If you want more,

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Speaker 3: you can head over to this Glorious Mess podcast feed.

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Speaker 3: There's a link in the show notes, and each episode

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Speaker 3: we want to make you feel seen and heard as

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Speaker 3: a parent and hopefully give you a little chuckle in

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Speaker 3: your day, because there really is humor and glory in

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Speaker 3: the mess of it, One big, giant, glorious mess.