WEBVTT - The 'Australia Effect' & Meghan and Harry's Curious Party Edit

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a mother and mea podcast. You were

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<v Speaker 1>so pretty jesty.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my god.

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<v Speaker 3>I was just thinking I just looked very, very washed down.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to hear you complain anymore. Very best.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm just going to say, Mary best to you anytime time.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I was saying that how many times did she have?

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<v Speaker 3>I think she's got at least three sets? And she

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<v Speaker 3>was all right, So I'm like, mate, I can do it.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello and welcome to MoMA Mia out loud. It's what

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<v Speaker 2>women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the twelfth of November.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Holly Wayne Wright, I'm Amelia Lester.

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<v Speaker 3>And I'm Jesse Stevens.

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<v Speaker 2>And here's what's made our agenda for today.

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<v Speaker 1>A sixty five year old woman was denied custody of

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<v Speaker 1>her fifteenth child by US court. Now that story is wild,

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<v Speaker 1>and we will bring you all the details about it,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's also provoked a lot of debate around the

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<v Speaker 1>office here about why old moms get so many feelings

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<v Speaker 1>and so much outrage and old dad is just going

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<v Speaker 1>to pass.

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<v Speaker 3>I was late to this record because I cornered me

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<v Speaker 3>out and we just couldn't stop talking about it. I

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<v Speaker 3>have so many thoughts about this story. I'm desperate to

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<v Speaker 3>talk about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Also, what's a grief vampire? And why is an alleged

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<v Speaker 2>one filling theaters around Australia this week?

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<v Speaker 3>And Black Friday creep You may have noticed it. I

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<v Speaker 3>very unsurprisingly have some concerns I would like to table.

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<v Speaker 2>But first, in case you missed it, and I'm sure

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<v Speaker 2>you did, Princess Anne is here and nobody cares even

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit.

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<v Speaker 3>You didn't put that in my calendar, I know.

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<v Speaker 2>And the given all the who ha, we have a

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<v Speaker 2>Brown Royal tours. It's amazing that the fourth most popular royal.

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<v Speaker 2>Actually I think she's the third one popular royal.

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<v Speaker 3>It's such a lie.

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<v Speaker 2>She's the third most to the UK Government. They survey

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<v Speaker 2>this stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>I couldn't pick her out of a lineup. I probably

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<v Speaker 3>walked past her on the way to the office. There's

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<v Speaker 3>no way I'd advertize her.

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<v Speaker 2>Our producer's husband did walk past. She just walk pretty

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<v Speaker 2>down anyway. She is the third most popular royal because

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<v Speaker 2>she is well known for being the most hard working. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>so the royal ranking as of now, according to the

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<v Speaker 2>UK Government, goes Catherine William and Charlie. There you go

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<v Speaker 2>just I'm telling you if these are facts facts anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>the fact that we don't know I was all very oh, look,

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<v Speaker 2>we only care about royals when they're young and glamorous

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<v Speaker 2>and dah da da dah. But it's actually a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit by design. She's here at the invitation of the

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<v Speaker 2>Australian Army because they're celebrating the centenary of the Royal

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<v Speaker 2>Australian Corps of Signals and she is their colonel in chief.

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<v Speaker 3>So is it Remembering Stay adjacent, Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>It's Remembering Day adjacent. It's their centenary and that is

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<v Speaker 2>an area of the army that doesn't get as much

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<v Speaker 2>glory as a lot of the others because it's not

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<v Speaker 2>a combat wing. But it's like signalers communications support, so

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<v Speaker 2>not unlike Princess and vital to the operation, but not

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<v Speaker 2>necessarily getting all the heralding anyway. So she's here, she's

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<v Speaker 2>doing a few cities. She apparently brings a tiny entrige,

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<v Speaker 2>so just her husband Tim, who inspects the troops with

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<v Speaker 2>her and stuff, her secretary and like one assistant.

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<v Speaker 1>So she does not bring, as Charles's rumor to a

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<v Speaker 1>mobile martini mixer who travels with her everywhere.

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<v Speaker 2>She's really missed a trick there.

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<v Speaker 3>I think she sources them like a lee.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we do have good Martini tit, so she keeps

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<v Speaker 2>it on the down low. And also none of the

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<v Speaker 2>royal roader have come, so none of the big royal

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<v Speaker 2>reporters are following Anna around. They've all been in Brazil

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<v Speaker 2>photographing William looking handsome on the Amazon and Rememberance Day

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<v Speaker 2>in England where all the other royals have been on display.

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<v Speaker 2>So I just want it out there that there is

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<v Speaker 2>a royal in our midst. But that brings us to

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<v Speaker 2>the other bit of royal gossip from today, Harry and Mix,

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<v Speaker 2>the Dutchess and Duke of wherever it is they live

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<v Speaker 2>these days. Want Sito went to christ Jenna's seventieth birthday

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<v Speaker 2>party that you wonderful people discussed on Monday. It was

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<v Speaker 2>the most star studied of events.

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<v Speaker 1>The fallout continues, it really does.

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<v Speaker 2>They were photographed with Chris, with Kim, with everyone until

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<v Speaker 2>they were okay.

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<v Speaker 3>Can you explain this to me because I keep seeing

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<v Speaker 3>the headline that photos were deleted? So did Chris and

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<v Speaker 3>Kim actually post photos with Meghan Harry and then remove

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<v Speaker 3>those photos? Why?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, This is what we need to unpack because obviously

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<v Speaker 2>there isn't an official line why but as somebody who

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<v Speaker 2>has been following this party obsessively, because I cannot get

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<v Speaker 2>my head around the fact there was a party that

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<v Speaker 2>Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Beyonce, like, it just boggles me.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't get my friends in the same room, like anyway.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't, Yeah, your friends aren't.

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<v Speaker 2>Surely are important anyway. I've been following it. So I

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<v Speaker 2>saw all the pictures, and there's Harry and Meg's with

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<v Speaker 2>various Kardashians just last night with the pictures of just

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<v Speaker 2>Meghan and Kim together smiling for the cameras. Today all gone.

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<v Speaker 2>The reporting is that Harry and Meghan requested them to

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<v Speaker 2>be taken down. What do we think about that?

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<v Speaker 1>So some context. On the same night was the biggest

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<v Speaker 1>celebrity event of the year in Los Angeles outside of

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<v Speaker 1>industry events, which is Baby to Baby's gala. Baby to

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<v Speaker 1>Baby is a charity exclusively populated by a less celebrities,

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<v Speaker 1>and everyone wants to be invited to that gala. It's

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<v Speaker 1>like a really big deal to be invited to that gala.

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<v Speaker 1>And Harry Meghan went to that and I think that

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<v Speaker 1>they just sort of thought of Christianna's party is a

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<v Speaker 1>bit of an after party, a bit of a lark

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<v Speaker 1>to go to after the main event of the evening,

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<v Speaker 1>which was again a big deal for them to be

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<v Speaker 1>invited to. And I just think they thought they were

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<v Speaker 1>going to go under the radar.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm sure you're right that they did, but what

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<v Speaker 2>a stupid thing to think. Have you met a Cardashian before,

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<v Speaker 2>do you think they're not going.

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<v Speaker 1>To be They're not under the radar people.

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<v Speaker 3>So our theory is that Meghan and Harry have asked

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<v Speaker 3>for them removal.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, I think that's that's clear. But the question

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<v Speaker 1>is why, why do you think?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think they immediately I mean, not that this

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<v Speaker 2>is new, but they immediately got a lot of flak

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<v Speaker 2>for being at that party, even though, as discussed, the

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<v Speaker 2>most powerful people in the world were at that party.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a lot of sneering and this shows how far

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<v Speaker 2>from the royal family they've fallen and stuff. I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's not very on brand for Harry, who's still trying

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<v Speaker 2>to keep a foot in the royal camp, to have

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<v Speaker 2>been at that party. But in my opinion, they look

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<v Speaker 2>like idiots for asking those pictures to be taken down.

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<v Speaker 2>Either don't go, or go and know that you're going

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<v Speaker 2>to be photographed. Yeah, they're a picture of Bill Gates

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<v Speaker 2>and Mark Zuckerberg playing what's the thing you play with

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<v Speaker 2>the discs Roulette? And I'm like, if they can be

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<v Speaker 2>photographed at Christians but you're too precious and important.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, Because the other theory is that it was Remembrance

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<v Speaker 3>Day weekend and now he was wearing his poppies, and

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<v Speaker 3>he was wearing his poppy, which in an American context

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<v Speaker 3>didn't make sense to a lot of.

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<v Speaker 1>Everyone would have thought of it as just sort of

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<v Speaker 1>a corsage flower. By the way, I love his thought

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<v Speaker 1>process on that. So he and Meg's are getting ready,

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<v Speaker 1>He's like, no, it's really important that I wear the

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<v Speaker 1>poppy for Remembrance Day, which is not marked in the US,

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<v Speaker 1>so no one's going to know what I'm doing, but

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<v Speaker 1>it's really important because is there any better way to

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<v Speaker 1>mark and to commemorate the sacrifice of the fallen. Then

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<v Speaker 1>by going to Chris Jenny.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm going to defend him because all this criticism and

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<v Speaker 3>chatter going look over here at what Kate and William

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<v Speaker 3>are doing. They're at all the really long ceremonies in

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<v Speaker 3>their black looking very somber and doing all the royal things.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a big deal.

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<v Speaker 3>And then it is a stark contrast to then see

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<v Speaker 3>Megan and Harry. But of course the context that a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of that reporting missed was how many events Harry

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<v Speaker 3>did that week that were very much in you know,

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<v Speaker 3>his work with Jesse.

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<v Speaker 1>Come on, I did a lot then, to Chris Jenner's

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<v Speaker 1>party at Jeff bezos Man.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I think Jesse. I don't have a problem with

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<v Speaker 2>them going, like they should go to all the celebrity

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<v Speaker 2>parties they want to. My problem is going And again

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<v Speaker 2>I'm with you, let's pretend we didn't go, because that

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<v Speaker 2>might be a bad look. It's like, if you're worried

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<v Speaker 2>about your reputation and remembers to and all the things,

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<v Speaker 2>then don't go, just go home after the baby to

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<v Speaker 2>baby and put your feet up, or you go and

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<v Speaker 2>you embrace the fact that you are at a party.

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<v Speaker 3>Own it that.

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<v Speaker 2>Literally exists for the purposes of being shown off on

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<v Speaker 2>social media. I have seen more pictures of that party

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<v Speaker 2>than I've seen of your wedding.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, one hundred percent. My favorite hobby now is zooming

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<v Speaker 3>in to see what celebrities I can find in the

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<v Speaker 3>background who didn't make it into the foreground, Like it

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<v Speaker 3>is so star studded, it is so fun just own

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<v Speaker 3>that you went.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you saw this photo. Did you

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<v Speaker 1>see Justin Bieber coming into the party?

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<v Speaker 3>It was side on, so I didn't know it was

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<v Speaker 3>Justin Bieber saw him down there.

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<v Speaker 1>He is famously underdressed. We've seen many pictures of him

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<v Speaker 1>dressed in basketball shorts next to his impeccably dressed wife,

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<v Speaker 1>Haley Bieber. But on this occasion he did wear a suit.

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<v Speaker 1>It's really unfortunate though, because he must have put the

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<v Speaker 1>suit on and then decided that he really needed to

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<v Speaker 1>bake some sour dough, because he did have a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit of flower on his power white powder. Yeah, that's

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes you just got to bake a sour dough, don't you.

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<v Speaker 3>Exactly, Or you've just eaten some and you get a

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<v Speaker 3>little bit of a white mark powder, a flower flower.

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<v Speaker 1>My hero of the party, though, is the cranky neighbor

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<v Speaker 1>who called the cops.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, you're.

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<v Speaker 1>Out, Like this is what we say when we say

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<v Speaker 1>eat the rich. What we really mean is call the

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<v Speaker 1>cops on the rich People's party. Good on?

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<v Speaker 3>You can we urgently talk about Black Friday creep because

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<v Speaker 3>according to my very thorough research, Black Friday sales officially

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<v Speaker 3>twenty eighth of November, and according to Holly wayIn right

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<v Speaker 3>at the top of Today's show, today is only November.

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<v Speaker 3>That's true, So there are days between now and Black Friday.

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<v Speaker 3>So why is the top email in my inbox about

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<v Speaker 3>Black Friday sales?

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<v Speaker 2>They're kicking off in Australia on November the eighteenth, That's

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<v Speaker 2>what I've been told, Like it might be the twenty eighth,

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<v Speaker 2>but I think it starts on the eighteenth. But then

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<v Speaker 2>it's already started.

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<v Speaker 3>On some sites I don't know, they've already kicked off.

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<v Speaker 3>And we are also already in the midst of something

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<v Speaker 3>called click Frenzy.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, that's that.

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<v Speaker 1>Sorry, Sorry, yeah, I don't know what's click friends.

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<v Speaker 3>Click Frenzy started maybe yesterday and it ends at midnight

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<v Speaker 3>on Friday, and it's three full days of just mad

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<v Speaker 3>internet sales. I guess, so click Frenzy is upon us.

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<v Speaker 1>What about Cyber Monday.

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<v Speaker 3>Cyber Monday is first of December.

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<v Speaker 1>And then there's giving Tuesday. Okay, what's Giving Tuesday.

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<v Speaker 2>It's Giving Tuesday. Really Giving.

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<v Speaker 1>Giving Tuesday is the one where you meant to give

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<v Speaker 1>to charity, and weirdly it hasn't taken off like the

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<v Speaker 1>other That's.

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<v Speaker 2>What I've had off Giving Tuesday, which is the worst

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<v Speaker 2>day of the week.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, So I have a question. I know this originated

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<v Speaker 3>in the US, the whole Black Friday thing. Can you, Amelia,

0:11:00.154 --> 0:11:02.514
<v Speaker 3>can you explain the context because I'm confused as to

0:11:02.554 --> 0:11:04.474
<v Speaker 3>why the end of November is now I'm being in sale.

0:11:04.594 --> 0:11:07.034
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it's really confusing because of the Black Friday.

0:11:07.474 --> 0:11:10.674
<v Speaker 1>The origins of this will make it even more confusing. Basically,

0:11:10.754 --> 0:11:13.914
<v Speaker 1>around the nineteen eighties in the US, Black Friday emerged

0:11:14.034 --> 0:11:16.674
<v Speaker 1>as the biggest shopping day of the year, and there's

0:11:16.674 --> 0:11:18.834
<v Speaker 1>always a particular date that it's on, and that date

0:11:18.954 --> 0:11:22.514
<v Speaker 1>is the day after Thanksgiving, and Thanksgiving is the fourth

0:11:22.634 --> 0:11:26.634
<v Speaker 1>Thursday in November. Now, the reason why that's such a

0:11:26.674 --> 0:11:28.714
<v Speaker 1>big deal to hold on to in the context of

0:11:28.714 --> 0:11:32.434
<v Speaker 1>this conversation is because there's a sort of unspoken rule

0:11:32.474 --> 0:11:35.954
<v Speaker 1>in the US that you do not think or talk

0:11:35.994 --> 0:11:39.394
<v Speaker 1>about Christmas until after Thanksgiving. I like that, and so

0:11:39.594 --> 0:11:43.274
<v Speaker 1>as soon as Thanksgivings over, then you start thinking about Christmas.

0:11:43.394 --> 0:11:45.834
<v Speaker 1>Then you hit the sales. But the problem with this

0:11:45.874 --> 0:11:49.034
<v Speaker 1>Black Friday creep is that even in Australia, no one

0:11:49.154 --> 0:11:50.794
<v Speaker 1>is thinking about Christmas yet.

0:11:50.874 --> 0:11:52.634
<v Speaker 2>I have bad news feel on that front, a Melia,

0:11:52.674 --> 0:11:55.194
<v Speaker 2>because every shop I've been into in the past two

0:11:55.234 --> 0:11:58.514
<v Speaker 2>weeks has all their decorations up. My Walley's bag already

0:11:58.514 --> 0:12:00.874
<v Speaker 2>has ballbles on it. There's a massive Christmas tree in

0:12:00.874 --> 0:12:04.234
<v Speaker 2>the middle of Sydney. We've already started Christmas on the record.

0:12:04.274 --> 0:12:06.794
<v Speaker 2>Last year, I got a lot of a lot of

0:12:06.794 --> 0:12:10.834
<v Speaker 2>feed back for my grinchy complaints about Christmas starting too early.

0:12:10.874 --> 0:12:14.034
<v Speaker 2>So I'm not going to do that this year, but noted.

0:12:14.394 --> 0:12:16.874
<v Speaker 2>But I feel like that's part of the problem. Because

0:12:16.874 --> 0:12:21.114
<v Speaker 2>we brought Christmas forward to November one, we have to

0:12:21.154 --> 0:12:21.874
<v Speaker 2>bring shopping.

0:12:21.914 --> 0:12:23.834
<v Speaker 1>We have brought it to November the first. And you

0:12:23.874 --> 0:12:27.114
<v Speaker 1>know how, I know that even in the US Mariah Carey,

0:12:27.674 --> 0:12:30.514
<v Speaker 1>whose song All I Want for Christmas Is You is

0:12:30.554 --> 0:12:32.194
<v Speaker 1>one of the most played songs of all time and

0:12:32.234 --> 0:12:34.314
<v Speaker 1>every year she makes something like ten million dollars off

0:12:34.354 --> 0:12:37.714
<v Speaker 1>the royalties of that one song alone. Now people start

0:12:37.794 --> 0:12:40.154
<v Speaker 1>to say that it's all I want for Christmas season,

0:12:40.314 --> 0:12:42.554
<v Speaker 1>and she's been releasing a video the last few years

0:12:42.594 --> 0:12:45.674
<v Speaker 1>declaring that it is the Christmas season, and this year

0:12:46.074 --> 0:12:48.514
<v Speaker 1>the video hit earlier than ever before. It hit on

0:12:48.554 --> 0:12:52.714
<v Speaker 1>November the first, and speaking to the capitalistic times that

0:12:52.754 --> 0:12:54.914
<v Speaker 1>we live in. It was also a tie in with

0:12:54.994 --> 0:12:57.794
<v Speaker 1>Sephora for a sale that they were having, which was

0:12:58.074 --> 0:13:00.434
<v Speaker 1>a pre Black Friday's sale, a.

0:13:00.314 --> 0:13:04.474
<v Speaker 3>Pre click frenzy. This is my question, John, say, click friendly,

0:13:04.714 --> 0:13:10.714
<v Speaker 3>you're buying into the hype? Am I being frenzy? I

0:13:10.914 --> 0:13:14.034
<v Speaker 3>hate the word? Am I being a grinch? Or maybe

0:13:14.354 --> 0:13:16.834
<v Speaker 3>is this a cost of a living story? Like are

0:13:16.914 --> 0:13:20.994
<v Speaker 3>we so pinched? I think finger wagging too much at

0:13:20.994 --> 0:13:24.514
<v Speaker 3>people who go hard at Black Friday sales is really

0:13:24.554 --> 0:13:27.474
<v Speaker 3>annoying because often there is there are some people who

0:13:27.514 --> 0:13:29.434
<v Speaker 3>are so organized, they've got their Christmas lists, they can

0:13:29.474 --> 0:13:32.714
<v Speaker 3>get good deals like go ahead. But is that what

0:13:32.794 --> 0:13:34.754
<v Speaker 3>this season is about? Is that they know that people

0:13:34.794 --> 0:13:38.074
<v Speaker 3>are trying to be more organized and more intentional or

0:13:38.554 --> 0:13:43.434
<v Speaker 3>is it about over consumerism, marketing spin? This is all terrible, Holly,

0:13:43.514 --> 0:13:44.034
<v Speaker 3>what do you think?

0:13:44.394 --> 0:13:47.834
<v Speaker 2>Well, the serious answer is it's about trying to prop

0:13:47.914 --> 0:13:50.994
<v Speaker 2>up flagging retail sales. Right, So if you talk to

0:13:51.034 --> 0:13:52.914
<v Speaker 2>any business owner. They will tell you that in the

0:13:52.954 --> 0:13:56.954
<v Speaker 2>past couple of years, Christmas is quiet. This is the

0:13:56.994 --> 0:14:00.074
<v Speaker 2>time of year that is crazy. So end of November,

0:14:00.074 --> 0:14:02.874
<v Speaker 2>if you're like a jewelry business online, if you're a lady,

0:14:02.954 --> 0:14:06.994
<v Speaker 2>start at whatever. Lee Campbell says this about Brillow Beauty's

0:14:07.194 --> 0:14:10.754
<v Speaker 2>shifted to now crazy crazy crazy. And then actually, the

0:14:10.794 --> 0:14:13.314
<v Speaker 2>few weeks before Christmas are quiet.

0:14:13.794 --> 0:14:17.234
<v Speaker 3>So we sorry, are we doing our Christmas shopping right now?

0:14:17.354 --> 0:14:17.554
<v Speaker 1>Well?

0:14:17.674 --> 0:14:21.194
<v Speaker 2>I'm not because I'm a deeply disorganized person.

0:14:21.634 --> 0:14:24.154
<v Speaker 1>But Holly, do you think no? Of course not. You

0:14:24.194 --> 0:14:27.434
<v Speaker 1>think that that is because people are buying stuff online

0:14:27.474 --> 0:14:29.554
<v Speaker 1>these days more than in shops, and so they have

0:14:29.634 --> 0:14:30.954
<v Speaker 1>to build in the shipping time.

0:14:31.114 --> 0:14:33.794
<v Speaker 2>Is that why I reckon? That's a large part of it.

0:14:33.834 --> 0:14:36.034
<v Speaker 2>Although I have heard recently the bricks and mortars on

0:14:36.074 --> 0:14:37.994
<v Speaker 2>its way back in a big way. But if you

0:14:38.194 --> 0:14:41.514
<v Speaker 2>imagine that younger generations in particular do most of their

0:14:41.554 --> 0:14:45.194
<v Speaker 2>shopping online, it's like, get them to start thinking about

0:14:45.194 --> 0:14:47.714
<v Speaker 2>that early, to spread it across time. Now, the thing

0:14:47.754 --> 0:14:51.154
<v Speaker 2>that's tricky is so I feel personally attacked by this

0:14:51.194 --> 0:14:53.154
<v Speaker 2>because I have no idea what to buy anyone for Christmas.

0:14:53.194 --> 0:14:57.794
<v Speaker 2>In November. But this behavior is teaching me, it's training

0:14:57.834 --> 0:15:01.634
<v Speaker 2>me and changing my behavior. In research for this segment today,

0:15:02.034 --> 0:15:04.554
<v Speaker 2>I tick something off my Christmas list because any parent

0:15:04.594 --> 0:15:07.314
<v Speaker 2>of teenager will be familiar with the PowerPoint presentation that

0:15:07.354 --> 0:15:09.474
<v Speaker 2>you would get given that says these are the things

0:15:09.514 --> 0:15:12.474
<v Speaker 2>I would like for Christmas. Please. It always comes with

0:15:12.514 --> 0:15:15.754
<v Speaker 2>the caveat of I don't expect to get them all,

0:15:16.154 --> 0:15:19.674
<v Speaker 2>but here are twenty five expensive things I'd like with links.

0:15:19.994 --> 0:15:22.994
<v Speaker 2>And my daughter started making that one and keeps texting

0:15:23.034 --> 0:15:25.514
<v Speaker 2>me the things. And when I was doing my research

0:15:25.594 --> 0:15:28.314
<v Speaker 2>on Black Friday, I was like, oh, those ogs, they

0:15:28.354 --> 0:15:29.834
<v Speaker 2>are thirty percent off.

0:15:30.434 --> 0:15:31.514
<v Speaker 3>Fantastic done.

0:15:31.634 --> 0:15:34.474
<v Speaker 2>So it's training me, it's changing my behavior. What are

0:15:34.514 --> 0:15:36.234
<v Speaker 2>the bad things you're going to say about this? That's

0:15:36.314 --> 0:15:37.314
<v Speaker 2>just made my life better?

0:15:37.434 --> 0:15:40.314
<v Speaker 3>Okay, the bad things will be that a study came

0:15:40.354 --> 0:15:42.354
<v Speaker 3>out in the last few years that said eighty percent

0:15:42.394 --> 0:15:45.354
<v Speaker 3>of what people buy Black Friday sales is going to

0:15:45.354 --> 0:15:49.074
<v Speaker 3>go into after zero or one use is going to

0:15:49.074 --> 0:15:50.354
<v Speaker 3>go into some sort of landfill.

0:15:50.434 --> 0:15:50.634
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:15:50.994 --> 0:15:53.914
<v Speaker 3>I've been on my goal this year of not buying

0:15:53.954 --> 0:15:56.874
<v Speaker 3>anything new. I must say I have broken that roll

0:15:56.914 --> 0:15:58.994
<v Speaker 3>a few times. Every time I'm in Westfield I just

0:15:59.114 --> 0:16:01.394
<v Speaker 3>know that there's an out louder I'm tutting, and I'm like,

0:16:01.594 --> 0:16:03.354
<v Speaker 3>no fair, I need some shame.

0:16:03.994 --> 0:16:05.354
<v Speaker 2>No, you are pragnant with twigs.

0:16:05.434 --> 0:16:08.754
<v Speaker 3>It's exactly and like it just is hard. But I

0:16:08.874 --> 0:16:13.314
<v Speaker 3>now can't buy things without seeing the beaches of Ghana,

0:16:13.394 --> 0:16:17.714
<v Speaker 3>where like all the kind of western mess and over

0:16:17.754 --> 0:16:21.074
<v Speaker 3>consumption ends up in landfill. Like that just kind of

0:16:21.114 --> 0:16:24.434
<v Speaker 3>makes me sick. But at the same time, I can

0:16:24.474 --> 0:16:29.474
<v Speaker 3>appreciate that for people who were more organized, these kind

0:16:29.474 --> 0:16:32.794
<v Speaker 3>of sales actually are really helpful. How about your man?

0:16:32.874 --> 0:16:35.474
<v Speaker 1>But they also make us feel bad. Like I saw

0:16:35.834 --> 0:16:40.474
<v Speaker 1>an actual example of an Australian brand sending an email

0:16:40.594 --> 0:16:42.874
<v Speaker 1>out this week that said that they were having their

0:16:42.914 --> 0:16:45.954
<v Speaker 1>Black Friday sale two weeks early. It was on a

0:16:45.954 --> 0:16:49.274
<v Speaker 1>particular day this week. It started at seven am and

0:16:49.314 --> 0:16:53.074
<v Speaker 1>it was thirty percent off sightwide from seven to seven

0:16:53.154 --> 0:16:53.874
<v Speaker 1>thirty am.

0:16:53.914 --> 0:16:56.114
<v Speaker 3>Now that is just ridiculous, and that's you know, it

0:16:56.154 --> 0:16:59.874
<v Speaker 3>is encouraging me to rush and make an impulse, urgent decision,

0:16:59.994 --> 0:17:01.954
<v Speaker 3>which is when we waste as well.

0:17:02.354 --> 0:17:04.914
<v Speaker 1>And that's why I guess I hadn't thought about this before,

0:17:04.914 --> 0:17:07.634
<v Speaker 1>but that's probably why your stat that so many of

0:17:07.634 --> 0:17:10.994
<v Speaker 1>these Black Friday purchases end up in landfill. That's why,

0:17:11.154 --> 0:17:14.754
<v Speaker 1>because we're making them under these incredibly stressful conditions. But

0:17:14.834 --> 0:17:16.674
<v Speaker 1>I want to be clear that my issue here is

0:17:16.754 --> 0:17:19.714
<v Speaker 1>not with the people who take advantage of them. These

0:17:19.834 --> 0:17:23.234
<v Speaker 1>people are amazing people. They are better than everyone at

0:17:23.234 --> 0:17:27.074
<v Speaker 1>this table, and it's because they're just more organized than us.

0:17:27.194 --> 0:17:29.474
<v Speaker 1>And it got me thinking about how there really are

0:17:29.514 --> 0:17:31.354
<v Speaker 1>two types of people in this world. There are the

0:17:31.394 --> 0:17:34.434
<v Speaker 1>people who refuse to pay full price for things, and

0:17:34.474 --> 0:17:37.394
<v Speaker 1>there are the people who know no other way. And

0:17:37.874 --> 0:17:40.314
<v Speaker 1>I think I'm very much in that camp as thinking

0:17:40.354 --> 0:17:43.273
<v Speaker 1>that there's all these sorts of hallmarks of how you

0:17:43.434 --> 0:17:46.234
<v Speaker 1>know if you're the person in that first camp, how

0:17:46.274 --> 0:17:48.234
<v Speaker 1>you know that you're a super organized person. And the

0:17:48.274 --> 0:17:49.834
<v Speaker 1>first one that came to mind, and we were talking

0:17:49.874 --> 0:17:52.833
<v Speaker 1>about this before, was this that person always has a

0:17:52.834 --> 0:17:55.834
<v Speaker 1>cupboard in their house full of presents that they had

0:17:55.874 --> 0:17:58.714
<v Speaker 1>just accumulated throughout the year. They're not going on a

0:17:58.754 --> 0:18:01.914
<v Speaker 1>scramble before a birthday party. They've got some lovely candles

0:18:01.914 --> 0:18:03.514
<v Speaker 1>to give us hostesk gifts.

0:18:03.274 --> 0:18:05.674
<v Speaker 3>Yep, they've got some arm oil, they have blank cards,

0:18:05.674 --> 0:18:07.314
<v Speaker 3>they don't have to rush to bully.

0:18:07.234 --> 0:18:10.234
<v Speaker 1>And stamps for them too, because they still send thank

0:18:10.274 --> 0:18:11.634
<v Speaker 1>you cards by mail.

0:18:11.914 --> 0:18:12.514
<v Speaker 2>That is so.

0:18:12.834 --> 0:18:15.154
<v Speaker 1>Here are some other signs, would you like to hear them?

0:18:15.394 --> 0:18:17.194
<v Speaker 1>Some other signs that you're the sort of person who

0:18:17.314 --> 0:18:19.714
<v Speaker 1>uses the Black Friday sales for good. You wash your

0:18:19.714 --> 0:18:22.914
<v Speaker 1>bras regularly and with a bougie detergent on Sundays.

0:18:23.154 --> 0:18:25.914
<v Speaker 3>Yes, and you have one of those special bags, you know,

0:18:25.994 --> 0:18:28.794
<v Speaker 3>those ones that you put fancy lingerie.

0:18:28.834 --> 0:18:33.634
<v Speaker 1>And when was the last time I washed my bra

0:18:33.954 --> 0:18:37.994
<v Speaker 1>don't come too close. You have a shared family notes

0:18:37.994 --> 0:18:40.474
<v Speaker 1>at doc where you list errands and then check them

0:18:40.474 --> 0:18:42.874
<v Speaker 1>off on them, as opposed to waking up in the

0:18:42.874 --> 0:18:44.674
<v Speaker 1>middle of the night realizing that you never signed up

0:18:44.674 --> 0:18:46.114
<v Speaker 1>for that thing that you were meant to sign up for.

0:18:47.514 --> 0:18:49.434
<v Speaker 1>Here's one. You never eat in your car.

0:18:51.354 --> 0:18:52.273
<v Speaker 2>Most of my meals and.

0:18:54.234 --> 0:18:55.354
<v Speaker 3>They're on my steering wheel.

0:18:55.354 --> 0:18:57.594
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god. You are never without your keep cup.

0:18:58.634 --> 0:19:01.793
<v Speaker 1>Now I work with you both. I know that I used.

0:19:01.674 --> 0:19:03.554
<v Speaker 2>To have a keep cup, but I lost the lid.

0:19:03.634 --> 0:19:05.394
<v Speaker 2>And then it's like that, and I bet that this

0:19:05.434 --> 0:19:06.674
<v Speaker 2>person never loses the lid.

0:19:07.194 --> 0:19:09.074
<v Speaker 3>You kept getting shamed because you were handing them a

0:19:09.114 --> 0:19:10.273
<v Speaker 3>dirty It's true.

0:19:10.514 --> 0:19:12.634
<v Speaker 1>I got two more quickly. You own a shoe tree.

0:19:13.434 --> 0:19:13.793
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

0:19:13.994 --> 0:19:16.553
<v Speaker 1>And finally, your toilet rues bag is the kind that

0:19:16.594 --> 0:19:19.754
<v Speaker 1>you hang on a hook over the door and unfolds

0:19:19.994 --> 0:19:22.514
<v Speaker 1>so you see everything in it, as opposed to having

0:19:22.514 --> 0:19:24.353
<v Speaker 1>that freebie that you got a department store in two

0:19:24.354 --> 0:19:24.954
<v Speaker 1>thousand and night.

0:19:25.034 --> 0:19:27.273
<v Speaker 3>That's so true, rather than going to a hotel and

0:19:27.314 --> 0:19:29.314
<v Speaker 3>for some reason everything is on the floor.

0:19:29.394 --> 0:19:32.354
<v Speaker 1>Look, we salute you people who do these things, and

0:19:32.474 --> 0:19:34.514
<v Speaker 1>we wish you the best of like navigating the Black

0:19:34.514 --> 0:19:35.554
<v Speaker 1>Friday sales.

0:19:35.274 --> 0:19:38.114
<v Speaker 3>But the three of us I feel December two, we're

0:19:38.154 --> 0:19:40.513
<v Speaker 3>going to go. It's time to really take advantage of

0:19:40.514 --> 0:19:42.834
<v Speaker 3>those sales and it's going to be like guys, every

0:19:42.874 --> 0:19:47.474
<v Speaker 3>sale they can't.

0:19:47.274 --> 0:19:51.554
<v Speaker 2>Take the festive stress of shopping on December third. Christmas

0:19:51.954 --> 0:19:54.273
<v Speaker 2>is one of my things I've done all my life.

0:19:54.274 --> 0:19:58.794
<v Speaker 2>And the heart rate, the caffeine intake, the swearing, the

0:19:58.834 --> 0:20:00.874
<v Speaker 2>car park range, like you can't take.

0:20:00.674 --> 0:20:02.994
<v Speaker 3>That Christmas and the debt.

0:20:04.714 --> 0:20:07.793
<v Speaker 2>After the break. What's a grief vampire? Is there a

0:20:07.874 --> 0:20:16.874
<v Speaker 2>chance that they're actually doing good? Doesn't sound likely if

0:20:16.914 --> 0:20:20.234
<v Speaker 2>you haven't noticed Princess Ann on tour because Oasis had

0:20:20.274 --> 0:20:21.114
<v Speaker 2>better bucket hats.

0:20:21.194 --> 0:20:25.234
<v Speaker 3>Let's be honest, did you see the headline that Oasis

0:20:25.274 --> 0:20:28.954
<v Speaker 3>stayed at Sam Wood's holiday house. Oh yes, I did

0:20:29.034 --> 0:20:32.033
<v Speaker 3>on the morning simple then I really enjoyed that.

0:20:32.074 --> 0:20:36.834
<v Speaker 2>And he said the recycling bins were full. I'm like,

0:20:37.034 --> 0:20:38.154
<v Speaker 2>I am not surprised.

0:20:38.154 --> 0:20:39.554
<v Speaker 3>Why have I retained that information?

0:20:39.754 --> 0:20:42.994
<v Speaker 2>Bless them? Anyway, if you haven't noticed the Princess ends

0:20:42.994 --> 0:20:46.273
<v Speaker 2>on tour, you might not know that there's also another

0:20:46.274 --> 0:20:48.714
<v Speaker 2>tour going on that's attracting lots of eye rolls and

0:20:48.794 --> 0:20:54.074
<v Speaker 2>big crowds. Probably the world's most famous medium one, John Edward,

0:20:54.314 --> 0:20:57.834
<v Speaker 2>is in Australia at the moment. He's doing thirteen shows

0:20:57.874 --> 0:21:00.074
<v Speaker 2>in most capital cities over the next few weeks, and

0:21:00.154 --> 0:21:02.354
<v Speaker 2>lots of the events have sold out. Now, Jesse, I

0:21:02.394 --> 0:21:04.474
<v Speaker 2>know you have been to a John Edwood show before.

0:21:05.194 --> 0:21:06.674
<v Speaker 2>What happens there? What's it like?

0:21:07.194 --> 0:21:11.154
<v Speaker 3>I went to one in twenty nineteen at the State Theater.

0:21:11.314 --> 0:21:12.954
<v Speaker 3>Why do you go for a work thing?

0:21:13.114 --> 0:21:13.234
<v Speaker 1>Like?

0:21:13.274 --> 0:21:16.313
<v Speaker 3>We got work passes Claire and I for story and

0:21:16.354 --> 0:21:18.154
<v Speaker 3>we went, this is going to be really interesting, let's

0:21:18.154 --> 0:21:21.354
<v Speaker 3>recap it. So State Theater I think has two thousand seats.

0:21:21.394 --> 0:21:25.553
<v Speaker 3>There's a lot of people there and we were skeptical,

0:21:25.594 --> 0:21:28.434
<v Speaker 3>cynical all of the things, and the first half of

0:21:28.474 --> 0:21:31.513
<v Speaker 3>it proved that cynicism to be fair. So it was like,

0:21:32.514 --> 0:21:36.674
<v Speaker 3>over here, I'm getting a chipped bone? Is there a

0:21:36.754 --> 0:21:40.033
<v Speaker 3>chipped bone? I'm getting the letter in that was just

0:21:40.114 --> 0:21:43.354
<v Speaker 3>you I'm getting. Yeah, it was a prophecy. It was

0:21:43.394 --> 0:21:46.594
<v Speaker 3>a prophecy there a few years early. But and then

0:21:46.634 --> 0:21:50.513
<v Speaker 3>would hone in on someone and almost get a bit irritated, like,

0:21:50.754 --> 0:21:53.314
<v Speaker 3>come on, do you know someone who died after surgery

0:21:53.674 --> 0:21:55.354
<v Speaker 3>or something? And it's like most of us would know

0:21:55.434 --> 0:21:58.314
<v Speaker 3>someone who died after anyway, also chipped bone.

0:21:58.474 --> 0:21:59.594
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was a.

0:21:59.554 --> 0:22:01.714
<v Speaker 3>Really weirdly specific thing. And then there was like this

0:22:01.794 --> 0:22:04.234
<v Speaker 3>irritation and we were going, oh, this is feeling a

0:22:04.234 --> 0:22:06.554
<v Speaker 3>bit awkward. And then it was like the seventh month

0:22:06.634 --> 0:22:09.074
<v Speaker 3>or the seventh of a month mean anything to you.

0:22:09.354 --> 0:22:12.354
<v Speaker 3>And then you start going statistically, come on, it's.

0:22:12.274 --> 0:22:13.754
<v Speaker 1>Five days before quick frenzy.

0:22:13.874 --> 0:22:18.554
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly right, exactly. So it got to that and

0:22:18.754 --> 0:22:21.074
<v Speaker 3>Claire and I went, you know, you could fill the

0:22:21.154 --> 0:22:24.313
<v Speaker 3>room getting a bit lost. The second half had me

0:22:24.554 --> 0:22:28.514
<v Speaker 3>utterly convinced. Oh wow, he absolutely He went to this

0:22:29.354 --> 0:22:32.794
<v Speaker 3>really specific woman and said the Vatican. You went to

0:22:32.834 --> 0:22:36.593
<v Speaker 3>the Vatican. Your father said he heard your prayer and

0:22:36.634 --> 0:22:38.434
<v Speaker 3>I was like, come on, how the hell would and

0:22:38.594 --> 0:22:41.074
<v Speaker 3>this woman just burst out to tears and went, I

0:22:41.114 --> 0:22:42.954
<v Speaker 3>said a prayer and then and then he said, and

0:22:43.114 --> 0:22:46.594
<v Speaker 3>his slippers. You found his slippers, and she had found

0:22:46.594 --> 0:22:48.794
<v Speaker 3>his slippers that morning. And then he said, there's an

0:22:48.954 --> 0:22:51.434
<v Speaker 3>Eric who has a wedding ring. You need to get

0:22:51.434 --> 0:22:53.994
<v Speaker 3>that wedding ring back. And Eric hard the ex fiancee,

0:22:54.114 --> 0:22:58.114
<v Speaker 3>still had the wedding ring, like really specific stuff. He

0:22:58.114 --> 0:22:59.914
<v Speaker 3>got to another woman and said, you're putting off a

0:22:59.954 --> 0:23:02.754
<v Speaker 3>doctor's appointment about your lungs. Why are you doing that?

0:23:02.834 --> 0:23:04.594
<v Speaker 3>You need to go. They're going to give you steroids.

0:23:04.954 --> 0:23:07.874
<v Speaker 3>And that was spot on. So look, do I know

0:23:08.434 --> 0:23:13.073
<v Speaker 3>whether there was some way he had plants in the

0:23:13.114 --> 0:23:15.634
<v Speaker 3>auditorium to kind of get some of that information. I don't.

0:23:15.994 --> 0:23:19.234
<v Speaker 3>But what I did know is that that room walked

0:23:19.274 --> 0:23:24.434
<v Speaker 3>away feeling like they had got something. It was incredibly

0:23:24.554 --> 0:23:28.114
<v Speaker 3>entertaining and for the people who came there bearing their grief,

0:23:28.754 --> 0:23:31.154
<v Speaker 3>there was some resolution for them. That's how I felt.

0:23:31.394 --> 0:23:35.154
<v Speaker 2>Well, not everybody is so stoked about Edward's shows. Right

0:23:35.914 --> 0:23:38.754
<v Speaker 2>in the Sydney Morning, Harold on the Weekend Peter Fitzimon's

0:23:38.914 --> 0:23:42.674
<v Speaker 2>interviewed a woman called Susan Gerbick in an article called

0:23:42.954 --> 0:23:46.594
<v Speaker 2>calling out the Grief Vampires. How John Edward and other

0:23:46.674 --> 0:23:51.194
<v Speaker 2>psychic mediums apply their a moral trade. Gerbik is described

0:23:51.234 --> 0:23:53.994
<v Speaker 2>as a leading American skeptic. Right, and she makes it

0:23:54.034 --> 0:23:57.593
<v Speaker 2>her business to go Your mom and me are out

0:23:57.674 --> 0:24:01.714
<v Speaker 2>loud to leading American skeptic. She makes it her business

0:24:01.714 --> 0:24:05.194
<v Speaker 2>to go around like unmasking people that she considers are

0:24:05.274 --> 0:24:08.994
<v Speaker 2>exploiting the grieving, milking their misery for money. She doesn't

0:24:08.994 --> 0:24:10.793
<v Speaker 2>mince her words about how she feels about them. This

0:24:10.874 --> 0:24:14.834
<v Speaker 2>is one of the quotes. They have no conscience, they're sociopaths.

0:24:15.114 --> 0:24:18.073
<v Speaker 2>They just don't care. They're just looking for grief. They

0:24:18.114 --> 0:24:21.634
<v Speaker 2>can capitalize on by doing tricks that convince paying customers.

0:24:21.954 --> 0:24:26.074
<v Speaker 2>They really are talking to the spirit world. So she

0:24:26.274 --> 0:24:29.674
<v Speaker 2>says that she has exposed certain psychics, and not necessarily

0:24:29.714 --> 0:24:32.154
<v Speaker 2>John Edward for legal reasons. Let's get it out there,

0:24:32.194 --> 0:24:33.994
<v Speaker 2>because he's a medium. He can hear me. He knows

0:24:33.994 --> 0:24:37.793
<v Speaker 2>I'm talking about him, not necessarily Edward. But she says

0:24:38.194 --> 0:24:42.274
<v Speaker 2>that she has unmasked mediums and psychics doing these things

0:24:42.314 --> 0:24:45.514
<v Speaker 2>called cold reads and hot reads. Right, and she says

0:24:45.514 --> 0:24:48.674
<v Speaker 2>a cold read is which something that we might expect

0:24:48.674 --> 0:24:50.634
<v Speaker 2>if you were doing like a one on one, she says,

0:24:50.674 --> 0:24:52.994
<v Speaker 2>You assess someone on how they look, how they sound,

0:24:53.074 --> 0:24:56.114
<v Speaker 2>and what they say. You make observations and assumptions about them,

0:24:56.114 --> 0:24:58.154
<v Speaker 2>and then you throw out baked so a bit like

0:24:58.554 --> 0:25:01.793
<v Speaker 2>exactly what you were saying, so like someone beginning with

0:25:01.914 --> 0:25:05.513
<v Speaker 2>them the seventh chipped bone, Yeah, that kind of stuff,

0:25:05.834 --> 0:25:07.714
<v Speaker 2>and then you begin to reel the me because in

0:25:07.834 --> 0:25:10.154
<v Speaker 2>the big audience you see who reacts to that, and

0:25:10.194 --> 0:25:13.074
<v Speaker 2>then you go okay, and then you drill in on there,

0:25:13.114 --> 0:25:15.313
<v Speaker 2>and if you know the right questions to ask, you

0:25:15.354 --> 0:25:17.794
<v Speaker 2>can probably draw out a bit of a story, she says.

0:25:17.794 --> 0:25:20.754
<v Speaker 2>That's generally in the business called a cold read. A

0:25:20.754 --> 0:25:23.114
<v Speaker 2>hot read, she says, which happens less often and is

0:25:23.114 --> 0:25:25.794
<v Speaker 2>obviously more deceitful. She says that you and your staff

0:25:26.074 --> 0:25:28.154
<v Speaker 2>would go through the names of people who are coming

0:25:28.194 --> 0:25:31.754
<v Speaker 2>to a certain audience and go and literally research them.

0:25:31.834 --> 0:25:34.273
<v Speaker 1>And also she's spoken in the past about what she

0:25:34.434 --> 0:25:38.714
<v Speaker 1>believes is the practice of these famous mediums, which is

0:25:38.754 --> 0:25:42.154
<v Speaker 1>that they do plant people in the lobby before the

0:25:42.234 --> 0:25:46.354
<v Speaker 1>show or at halftime at the show. And the example

0:25:46.354 --> 0:25:49.914
<v Speaker 1>here would be perhaps the reason why he knew to

0:25:49.954 --> 0:25:51.914
<v Speaker 1>say to that woman she needs to go to the

0:25:51.954 --> 0:25:55.994
<v Speaker 1>doctor for her lungs. Is maybe she was smoking outside

0:25:55.994 --> 0:25:59.033
<v Speaker 1>before the show? Ah, maybe maybe.

0:25:59.034 --> 0:26:02.513
<v Speaker 2>And she says when she's done stings to expose people,

0:26:02.754 --> 0:26:06.354
<v Speaker 2>she's planted stories. So like herself, she's planted stories and

0:26:06.354 --> 0:26:08.234
<v Speaker 2>then see if they can come up through the psychic

0:26:08.354 --> 0:26:11.354
<v Speaker 2>and they have. So she says that that happens a lot.

0:26:12.114 --> 0:26:14.394
<v Speaker 2>One of the things that's interesting about this, of course,

0:26:14.434 --> 0:26:16.434
<v Speaker 2>is that so this article was very much like these

0:26:16.434 --> 0:26:18.874
<v Speaker 2>are the worst people in the world. I mean, I'm exaggerating.

0:26:18.994 --> 0:26:20.874
<v Speaker 3>She used the word sociopath.

0:26:20.354 --> 0:26:23.434
<v Speaker 2>She did, And there's lots of talk of them being exploitative.

0:26:23.754 --> 0:26:27.074
<v Speaker 2>And she also just says to the argument that would

0:26:27.074 --> 0:26:28.914
<v Speaker 2>come back that it was like, does it really matter

0:26:28.994 --> 0:26:31.594
<v Speaker 2>if it's true or not? If it's comforting, she'd say, well,

0:26:31.634 --> 0:26:34.394
<v Speaker 2>this is basically the question, is it okay to lie

0:26:34.514 --> 0:26:37.194
<v Speaker 2>to make money out of people? What do we think

0:26:37.274 --> 0:26:39.954
<v Speaker 2>about this? I know that Amelia, when we did our

0:26:40.034 --> 0:26:43.794
<v Speaker 2>tarot session a while ago, you were the most skeptical

0:26:43.834 --> 0:26:47.954
<v Speaker 2>amongst us about the whole process. It made you quite uncomfortable.

0:26:47.994 --> 0:26:50.513
<v Speaker 2>Do you share that feeling with these guys?

0:26:50.634 --> 0:26:54.033
<v Speaker 1>No, you know, I actually wasn't skeptical. I would characterize

0:26:54.074 --> 0:26:56.474
<v Speaker 1>you as skeptical of the process. I was scared of

0:26:56.514 --> 0:26:57.954
<v Speaker 1>the process.

0:26:57.394 --> 0:26:58.154
<v Speaker 2>Right, That's true.

0:26:58.194 --> 0:27:01.674
<v Speaker 1>And what that meant was I don't actually identify myself

0:27:01.674 --> 0:27:04.234
<v Speaker 1>as a skeptic on this stuff because I just don't know.

0:27:04.794 --> 0:27:07.754
<v Speaker 1>But what it does make me feel is scared. And

0:27:07.794 --> 0:27:10.954
<v Speaker 1>the reason is with the terror was because I felt

0:27:10.954 --> 0:27:14.714
<v Speaker 1>like people often describe a terror reading as like seeing

0:27:14.714 --> 0:27:17.874
<v Speaker 1>a therapist, and my response to that is always like, well,

0:27:17.874 --> 0:27:20.354
<v Speaker 1>I'd prefer to see a therapist because I don't want

0:27:20.394 --> 0:27:25.074
<v Speaker 1>people who don't necessarily bring any expertise rifling through my brain,

0:27:25.194 --> 0:27:27.754
<v Speaker 1>planting stuff there that could psych me out, or that

0:27:27.834 --> 0:27:30.234
<v Speaker 1>could send me down a path that may or may

0:27:30.274 --> 0:27:33.274
<v Speaker 1>not have any bearing on what ends up happening. That's

0:27:33.274 --> 0:27:34.674
<v Speaker 1>why I feel scared about it.

0:27:36.314 --> 0:27:37.834
<v Speaker 2>How do you feel about these guys?

0:27:38.314 --> 0:27:40.514
<v Speaker 1>Well, I didn't know a lot about this guy. Interestingly,

0:27:40.554 --> 0:27:43.273
<v Speaker 1>when I was researching John Edward, I discovered that he

0:27:43.474 --> 0:27:46.313
<v Speaker 1>is unusually popular in Australia. You know how there are

0:27:46.354 --> 0:27:50.994
<v Speaker 1>certain celebrities like Pink psych. He's the Pink of the

0:27:50.994 --> 0:27:54.194
<v Speaker 1>psychic world. He comes to Australia more than any other country.

0:27:54.634 --> 0:27:58.114
<v Speaker 1>And I came across this very telling little incident that

0:27:58.274 --> 0:28:01.994
<v Speaker 1>happened on the project when he was here last in June,

0:28:02.114 --> 0:28:04.273
<v Speaker 1>and I want to play it for you because I

0:28:04.314 --> 0:28:06.474
<v Speaker 1>think it reveals a lot about how he works.

0:28:06.514 --> 0:28:08.754
<v Speaker 2>Let's have a less then, are you feeling anything from

0:28:09.194 --> 0:28:10.594
<v Speaker 2>anyone at the desk right now?

0:28:11.154 --> 0:28:11.874
<v Speaker 1>Not at the moment.

0:28:12.514 --> 0:28:18.234
<v Speaker 2>Not at the moment, I mean I could have done that. Yeah,

0:28:18.794 --> 0:28:21.394
<v Speaker 2>as we continue to ask questions things just I'll tell

0:28:21.394 --> 0:28:22.273
<v Speaker 2>you why, Because.

0:28:21.994 --> 0:28:23.834
<v Speaker 1>If I wind up reading for a host of a

0:28:23.874 --> 0:28:25.954
<v Speaker 1>show and I get something that's private and personal, that

0:28:26.274 --> 0:28:29.354
<v Speaker 1>is not this is not taped, it's live, and it's

0:28:29.394 --> 0:28:32.754
<v Speaker 1>not something that somebody wants to discuss publicly. Yeah, you're

0:28:32.754 --> 0:28:35.914
<v Speaker 1>going to say no. So I've had that experience.

0:28:36.834 --> 0:28:38.994
<v Speaker 2>Yeah on radio you can't handle the truth.

0:28:39.074 --> 0:28:41.274
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. But it's a little bit convenient, isn't it that

0:28:41.314 --> 0:28:44.154
<v Speaker 1>the one place where he won't do a read is

0:28:44.194 --> 0:28:47.274
<v Speaker 1>on live television with journalists who might push back. Jesse.

0:28:47.914 --> 0:28:50.474
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I totally see your point. And the cold read

0:28:50.514 --> 0:28:53.794
<v Speaker 3>hot read thing I think is really interesting and I

0:28:53.874 --> 0:28:57.194
<v Speaker 3>always think the world needs both. And I really respected

0:28:57.234 --> 0:29:00.994
<v Speaker 3>the position of fit Simon's and the expert who's dedicated

0:29:00.994 --> 0:29:03.554
<v Speaker 3>our life to going can we please have some rigor

0:29:03.594 --> 0:29:06.114
<v Speaker 3>and research involved in this stuff before we hand over

0:29:06.154 --> 0:29:11.554
<v Speaker 3>our money. However, when something offers a balm for someone's grief,

0:29:12.474 --> 0:29:15.074
<v Speaker 3>and if John Edward and he has said this, my

0:29:15.834 --> 0:29:19.674
<v Speaker 3>job is to make people leave feeling better, it's basically

0:29:19.914 --> 0:29:22.434
<v Speaker 3>do no harm. I don't want to do harm for people.

0:29:23.154 --> 0:29:25.834
<v Speaker 3>And in that article they talked about lies. And I

0:29:25.874 --> 0:29:28.594
<v Speaker 3>find the use of the word lie really interesting because

0:29:29.074 --> 0:29:32.314
<v Speaker 3>do I think John Edward believes what he's doing. I

0:29:32.434 --> 0:29:35.714
<v Speaker 3>don't know. I don't know, but I'm not completely convinced

0:29:36.354 --> 0:29:39.354
<v Speaker 3>that he is a fraud star or a con man

0:29:39.434 --> 0:29:44.434
<v Speaker 3>who gets up and intentionally manipulates people. When I've listened

0:29:44.434 --> 0:29:47.714
<v Speaker 3>to interviews with him, I think he believes what he

0:29:47.914 --> 0:29:51.394
<v Speaker 3>is doing. And there are a lot of things in

0:29:51.434 --> 0:29:54.994
<v Speaker 3>some instances, for example, fertility, I know people who claim

0:29:54.994 --> 0:29:58.834
<v Speaker 3>to be fertility experts that have no expertise, no degrees,

0:29:58.994 --> 0:30:03.154
<v Speaker 3>no research that triggers me like I find it so

0:30:03.234 --> 0:30:06.954
<v Speaker 3>irresponsible and so harmful, and they're giving people advice and whatever.

0:30:07.914 --> 0:30:10.554
<v Speaker 3>But then you know the practice like cupping, where they

0:30:10.554 --> 0:30:12.594
<v Speaker 3>put comes on your back and they did it. A

0:30:12.674 --> 0:30:14.914
<v Speaker 3>research is out on whether or not that's good. I've

0:30:14.954 --> 0:30:18.034
<v Speaker 3>got cupping. I've walked away feeling better acupuncture. Yeah, lots

0:30:18.034 --> 0:30:20.794
<v Speaker 3>of question marks around whether that actually I walk away

0:30:20.874 --> 0:30:24.634
<v Speaker 3>place ebo, eh, I walk away feeling better with this stuff.

0:30:25.234 --> 0:30:29.474
<v Speaker 3>I think grief and death and the afterlife is just

0:30:29.514 --> 0:30:34.274
<v Speaker 3>this massive well of like what balm do people have?

0:30:34.394 --> 0:30:38.354
<v Speaker 3>And if this has them leaving feeling better, I kind

0:30:38.394 --> 0:30:39.514
<v Speaker 3>of think there's space for that.

0:30:40.714 --> 0:30:43.154
<v Speaker 2>Look, I want to agree with you. I've spoken on

0:30:43.194 --> 0:30:47.194
<v Speaker 2>the show before about how Imbrent's family, my partner's family,

0:30:47.234 --> 0:30:50.434
<v Speaker 2>there are psychics, and that my late mother in law

0:30:50.714 --> 0:30:54.514
<v Speaker 2>was a self proclaimed psychic, and I know people who

0:30:54.554 --> 0:30:57.274
<v Speaker 2>she brought so much comfort to with her readings. Now

0:30:57.314 --> 0:30:59.914
<v Speaker 2>I am a skeptic, like I'm born a skeptic, right,

0:31:00.434 --> 0:31:02.794
<v Speaker 2>It's also an area that kind of frightens me, so

0:31:02.874 --> 0:31:04.914
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to go near it. Some people run

0:31:04.954 --> 0:31:07.434
<v Speaker 2>towards that stuff. I'm very much backing out of the

0:31:07.474 --> 0:31:09.234
<v Speaker 2>room going you guys carry on?

0:31:09.394 --> 0:31:11.994
<v Speaker 1>Is that for the same reason that I identify being

0:31:12.034 --> 0:31:12.474
<v Speaker 1>scared of.

0:31:12.394 --> 0:31:16.874
<v Speaker 2>Me plea and I just find it really unnerving. I

0:31:16.914 --> 0:31:19.554
<v Speaker 2>am quite romantic and magical in some way, Like It's

0:31:19.594 --> 0:31:22.554
<v Speaker 2>not that I'm very scientific, fact based in every way,

0:31:22.594 --> 0:31:25.794
<v Speaker 2>but I do find this challenging, and so I probably

0:31:25.834 --> 0:31:28.634
<v Speaker 2>back away from it. But when I began to get

0:31:28.714 --> 0:31:31.554
<v Speaker 2>to know people who lived in this world, basically I

0:31:31.634 --> 0:31:35.394
<v Speaker 2>did really have to reassess my view because I couldn't

0:31:35.434 --> 0:31:37.234
<v Speaker 2>sit there and point at my mother in law, who

0:31:37.234 --> 0:31:41.074
<v Speaker 2>I adored and say you're a liar, like you're you're

0:31:41.114 --> 0:31:43.914
<v Speaker 2>a liar and you're a fraud. On the other hand,

0:31:43.994 --> 0:31:49.394
<v Speaker 2>she was not filling massive theaters and charging large amounts

0:31:49.434 --> 0:31:51.674
<v Speaker 2>of money. You know, she would do a reading for

0:31:51.714 --> 0:31:54.034
<v Speaker 2>someone for free, for a bottle of wine for like,

0:31:54.194 --> 0:31:57.994
<v Speaker 2>you know, she would do it almost as a neighborhood service,

0:31:58.034 --> 0:32:00.714
<v Speaker 2>and whatever the truth of the situation was, very many

0:32:00.714 --> 0:32:04.594
<v Speaker 2>people felt good about what she did. And so, like

0:32:04.674 --> 0:32:06.954
<v Speaker 2>lots of things, I'm not sure how black and white

0:32:06.994 --> 0:32:09.154
<v Speaker 2>it is. When I was doing a bit of digging

0:32:09.154 --> 0:32:12.434
<v Speaker 2>into how many people actually believe this is really interesting

0:32:12.474 --> 0:32:15.554
<v Speaker 2>stat This is an American stat about how many people

0:32:15.754 --> 0:32:19.154
<v Speaker 2>proclaim that they believe in ghosts and the afterlife, and

0:32:19.194 --> 0:32:21.754
<v Speaker 2>it usually sits somewhere around thirty nine to forty one

0:32:21.794 --> 0:32:25.034
<v Speaker 2>percent of people who were like open to that. But

0:32:25.234 --> 0:32:28.714
<v Speaker 2>fifty three percent of Americans say that they've been visited

0:32:28.754 --> 0:32:32.314
<v Speaker 2>by a dead family member. So isn't that weird that

0:32:32.394 --> 0:32:36.914
<v Speaker 2>people actually say they've had lived experience of having contact

0:32:36.954 --> 0:32:40.874
<v Speaker 2>with people they've lost, even if they don't really believe

0:32:40.954 --> 0:32:45.274
<v Speaker 2>it themselves, Because I think that we've all had those

0:32:45.354 --> 0:32:49.354
<v Speaker 2>experiences where, you know, I remember, not long after Julie passed,

0:32:49.354 --> 0:32:52.074
<v Speaker 2>my mother in law, something that she gave me fell

0:32:52.114 --> 0:32:53.914
<v Speaker 2>out of a cupboard onto my head, and I was

0:32:54.074 --> 0:32:56.274
<v Speaker 2>really freaked out because I was thinking about her at

0:32:56.274 --> 0:32:58.314
<v Speaker 2>that moment. I was like, it's a sign, It's a sign,

0:32:58.514 --> 0:33:00.714
<v Speaker 2>you know, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't like, but

0:33:01.274 --> 0:33:04.794
<v Speaker 2>I think that it's interesting that we can feel things

0:33:04.834 --> 0:33:07.714
<v Speaker 2>sometimes that we don't actually believe in. And I think

0:33:07.754 --> 0:33:10.594
<v Speaker 2>a lot of this stuff lives in that area.

0:33:10.674 --> 0:33:13.714
<v Speaker 3>And this is an imperfect comparison. And I don't want

0:33:13.714 --> 0:33:16.914
<v Speaker 3>to offend anyone, but I know people who I'm close

0:33:16.954 --> 0:33:21.234
<v Speaker 3>to who donate significant amounts of money to different churches

0:33:21.674 --> 0:33:23.914
<v Speaker 3>or not even church, different faiths, the faith that they're

0:33:23.914 --> 0:33:28.274
<v Speaker 3>aligned with. I don't necessarily believe in the god that

0:33:28.274 --> 0:33:32.754
<v Speaker 3>they're aligned with. I don't necessarily believe the exact things

0:33:32.754 --> 0:33:34.434
<v Speaker 3>that they believe. Do I think they have the right

0:33:34.994 --> 0:33:40.714
<v Speaker 3>and do I respect their affiliation with that institution. I

0:33:40.754 --> 0:33:43.914
<v Speaker 3>do and if that makes them feel better, and if

0:33:43.954 --> 0:33:47.914
<v Speaker 3>particular stories and maybe I get a little bit funny

0:33:47.954 --> 0:33:52.634
<v Speaker 3>about any sort of patronizing of any set of beliefs

0:33:52.674 --> 0:33:59.114
<v Speaker 3>that you feel are stupid or can't be proven. I

0:33:59.194 --> 0:34:01.914
<v Speaker 3>have a lot of space for people who kind of

0:34:02.154 --> 0:34:03.714
<v Speaker 3>explore those things and find comfort.

0:34:03.914 --> 0:34:06.354
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I thought it was a really interesting point you made,

0:34:06.394 --> 0:34:11.674
<v Speaker 1>Jersey about what John Edward himself believes. And it's interesting

0:34:11.714 --> 0:34:15.873
<v Speaker 1>that he insists on describing himself as an entertainer, and

0:34:15.914 --> 0:34:18.754
<v Speaker 1>that is indisputable. He is an entertainer.

0:34:19.074 --> 0:34:22.433
<v Speaker 2>Yeah right, And yeah, his show is listed under art

0:34:22.514 --> 0:34:25.914
<v Speaker 2>theater and comedy. Yeah, so it's a performance.

0:34:25.274 --> 0:34:27.554
<v Speaker 3>That's what when we went our first instinct was this

0:34:27.594 --> 0:34:30.873
<v Speaker 3>feels like a comedy show, except without jokes, but more

0:34:30.914 --> 0:34:31.434
<v Speaker 3>dead people.

0:34:31.514 --> 0:34:33.994
<v Speaker 1>But then it does raise the question of stakes, Like

0:34:34.114 --> 0:34:37.554
<v Speaker 1>if he is an entertainer, then we come back to

0:34:37.594 --> 0:34:40.754
<v Speaker 1>that fundamental question of why does it matter? And this

0:34:40.834 --> 0:34:43.194
<v Speaker 1>interview that we kicked off the segment talking about with

0:34:43.274 --> 0:34:47.473
<v Speaker 1>the sort of renowned leading American skeptic, you end up

0:34:47.514 --> 0:34:50.474
<v Speaker 1>feeling a little bit like she's a bit too invested

0:34:50.554 --> 0:34:51.194
<v Speaker 1>in this thing.

0:34:51.594 --> 0:34:52.354
<v Speaker 2>You know, why is she?

0:34:52.554 --> 0:34:55.754
<v Speaker 3>So she's kind of just as dogmatic as he is.

0:34:57.594 --> 0:35:00.794
<v Speaker 3>I want to ask you, Holly, if this is real,

0:35:01.194 --> 0:35:04.314
<v Speaker 3>because is this ghost again? No, it is not ghosts,

0:35:04.314 --> 0:35:06.674
<v Speaker 3>but it's similar. It's when Brits moved to Australia. Oh,

0:35:07.154 --> 0:35:11.354
<v Speaker 3>it's this phenomenon called the Australia Effect. Right the other

0:35:11.394 --> 0:35:12.754
<v Speaker 3>day I came across it and I was like, well,

0:35:12.794 --> 0:35:14.714
<v Speaker 3>I sit in a podcast studio with a lady with

0:35:14.754 --> 0:35:16.873
<v Speaker 3>a British accent. That's you, Holly, A lady with an

0:35:16.914 --> 0:35:19.354
<v Speaker 3>American accent. That's your Amelia. And I thought, if anyone

0:35:19.354 --> 0:35:21.234
<v Speaker 3>can tell me about the Australia Effect, it's you. Two

0:35:21.914 --> 0:35:24.994
<v Speaker 3>came across this TikTok video of a woman explaining what

0:35:25.034 --> 0:35:27.154
<v Speaker 3>the Australia effect is. Here's what she said.

0:35:27.274 --> 0:35:29.954
<v Speaker 1>Has anyone seen the TikTok trends called the Australia Effect.

0:35:30.554 --> 0:35:32.914
<v Speaker 2>So essentially, it's like British girls will.

0:35:32.794 --> 0:35:33.834
<v Speaker 1>Go over to Australia.

0:35:33.954 --> 0:35:37.074
<v Speaker 2>Before they left, you know, they got full face makeup, massive.

0:35:36.794 --> 0:35:39.393
<v Speaker 1>Lip filler, big eyelashes, you know, the hair extensions, etc.

0:35:40.034 --> 0:35:41.714
<v Speaker 1>Then they moved to Australia. After a bit of time,

0:35:41.754 --> 0:35:43.634
<v Speaker 1>they're they're just like all natural, bare face.

0:35:43.714 --> 0:35:45.994
<v Speaker 2>They're never really weird makeup. Maybe they've taken their extensions out,

0:35:45.994 --> 0:35:47.274
<v Speaker 2>they haven't got lip filler, etc.

0:35:48.514 --> 0:35:50.994
<v Speaker 3>So her name is Nina and she's moved to Wales,

0:35:51.034 --> 0:35:54.834
<v Speaker 3>I'm pretty sure. But her theory is that when people

0:35:54.874 --> 0:35:58.274
<v Speaker 3>from overseas moved to Australia, they almost have a glowdown.

0:35:58.634 --> 0:36:01.594
<v Speaker 3>They become more laid back, they stopped doing their hair,

0:36:01.754 --> 0:36:05.554
<v Speaker 3>they stopped trying so hard. Holly, when you moved to Australia,

0:36:05.594 --> 0:36:07.474
<v Speaker 3>did you fall victim to the Australia effect?

0:36:08.274 --> 0:36:10.354
<v Speaker 2>Look, it was a long time ago and lip filler

0:36:10.394 --> 0:36:14.593
<v Speaker 2>and hair extensions weren't really the vibe. But absolutely one

0:36:14.674 --> 0:36:18.554
<v Speaker 2>hundred percent. Yes, this is absolutely one hundred percent, I

0:36:18.634 --> 0:36:22.194
<v Speaker 2>think really, and this is just about assimilation to the

0:36:22.234 --> 0:36:24.194
<v Speaker 2>beauty standards of the place you're living in.

0:36:24.274 --> 0:36:24.473
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:36:24.554 --> 0:36:29.594
<v Speaker 2>So there is a very classic, often mocked British mainstream

0:36:29.754 --> 0:36:31.474
<v Speaker 2>young female.

0:36:31.114 --> 0:36:32.194
<v Speaker 3>Look Jordy Shop.

0:36:32.274 --> 0:36:35.114
<v Speaker 2>Yeah very much. You see it on every reality show,

0:36:35.354 --> 0:36:38.834
<v Speaker 2>very Love Island, and it's very high maintenance. Let's just

0:36:38.914 --> 0:36:40.554
<v Speaker 2>call it what it is, high maintenance.

0:36:40.714 --> 0:36:40.873
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:36:41.474 --> 0:36:45.674
<v Speaker 2>And then in Australia, although obviously there are high maintenance

0:36:45.714 --> 0:36:49.314
<v Speaker 2>pockets and all kinds of different cult suburbs coming together

0:36:49.354 --> 0:36:54.473
<v Speaker 2>and every but the predominant kind of mainstream vibe of

0:36:54.474 --> 0:36:58.114
<v Speaker 2>what an Australian particularly. Let's remember that these people often

0:36:58.114 --> 0:37:01.794
<v Speaker 2>come and move to beachy places, so they congregate around

0:37:01.914 --> 0:37:06.274
<v Speaker 2>coastlines in Australian cities, and what they see is people

0:37:06.314 --> 0:37:10.474
<v Speaker 2>getting up at far running outside looking amazing in the

0:37:10.594 --> 0:37:13.473
<v Speaker 2>active where everybody's like just coming out of the surf

0:37:13.514 --> 0:37:18.314
<v Speaker 2>and their hairs and it's a completely different esthetic. So

0:37:18.554 --> 0:37:20.674
<v Speaker 2>I think one hundreds of what happens. And when I

0:37:20.714 --> 0:37:22.794
<v Speaker 2>came and I was young, I was twenty three when

0:37:22.794 --> 0:37:26.394
<v Speaker 2>I came to Australia, that wasn't my look. But within

0:37:26.914 --> 0:37:31.274
<v Speaker 2>weeks months I was like swimmers with the denim mini

0:37:31.354 --> 0:37:34.473
<v Speaker 2>dungarees over the top, like always air dried hair which

0:37:34.514 --> 0:37:39.553
<v Speaker 2>suited me, freckles like, it's just a very much looser vibe.

0:37:39.594 --> 0:37:42.674
<v Speaker 2>It's one hundred percent Tury. You would look weird. I

0:37:42.674 --> 0:37:45.714
<v Speaker 2>mean maybe not again, depending on where you were down

0:37:45.754 --> 0:37:49.314
<v Speaker 2>at Bondie at six am with all of that stuff

0:37:49.354 --> 0:37:49.594
<v Speaker 2>on you.

0:37:49.754 --> 0:37:53.274
<v Speaker 3>Okay, Amelia, you have lived in lots of different places

0:37:53.274 --> 0:37:57.394
<v Speaker 3>all over the world. Do you find that how you dress,

0:37:57.434 --> 0:37:58.834
<v Speaker 3>how you do your makeup, how you do your hair

0:37:58.954 --> 0:38:00.393
<v Speaker 3>changes when you're in Australia.

0:38:00.594 --> 0:38:02.913
<v Speaker 1>It's a really good question. I'm going to push back

0:38:02.954 --> 0:38:05.674
<v Speaker 1>against this idea a little bit. I think that the

0:38:05.794 --> 0:38:10.194
<v Speaker 1>low maintenance look in Australia has become extremely high maintenance

0:38:10.354 --> 0:38:14.154
<v Speaker 1>in recent years. So I came back here to live

0:38:14.274 --> 0:38:17.033
<v Speaker 1>last year, and I think in the last i want

0:38:17.074 --> 0:38:21.714
<v Speaker 1>to say, five to ten years, I see way more

0:38:21.754 --> 0:38:24.513
<v Speaker 1>lip filler here than I do on the East Coast

0:38:24.594 --> 0:38:27.393
<v Speaker 1>of the United States. Just as an example, like that's

0:38:27.394 --> 0:38:31.154
<v Speaker 1>a very popular look here is the lip filler. Fake

0:38:31.274 --> 0:38:33.554
<v Speaker 1>tan is a much bigger thing here than it is

0:38:33.874 --> 0:38:36.834
<v Speaker 1>in the US. And the idea of some people really

0:38:36.994 --> 0:38:39.873
<v Speaker 1>maintain their fake tan all through winter, and they're doing

0:38:39.914 --> 0:38:42.154
<v Speaker 1>it on Sundays when they wash their bras and so on.

0:38:42.754 --> 0:38:45.553
<v Speaker 1>And the hair is the beechy wave takes a lot

0:38:45.594 --> 0:38:47.873
<v Speaker 1>of work, unless you're holy, in which case she does

0:38:47.914 --> 0:38:50.874
<v Speaker 1>have naturally beachy waves, which is annoying. But for most

0:38:50.914 --> 0:38:53.474
<v Speaker 1>of us, beachie waves take work.

0:38:53.794 --> 0:38:56.594
<v Speaker 3>Okay, So I liken this too. When I go on

0:38:56.594 --> 0:39:00.154
<v Speaker 3>a holiday and I pack my straighter and my makeup

0:39:00.154 --> 0:39:02.594
<v Speaker 3>bag and they never come out. It's exadly like that,

0:39:02.674 --> 0:39:05.714
<v Speaker 3>and I go and I just become a coastal goddess,

0:39:05.754 --> 0:39:07.274
<v Speaker 3>and I look in the mirror and I go, you

0:39:07.274 --> 0:39:11.234
<v Speaker 3>look great. Look at you with your like messy hair.

0:39:11.474 --> 0:39:13.354
<v Speaker 3>But if I turned up to an office like that,

0:39:13.474 --> 0:39:17.074
<v Speaker 3>I would look scraggly and just like unkempt or whatever.

0:39:17.514 --> 0:39:19.993
<v Speaker 3>So I wonder if it's more of a coastal thing.

0:39:20.114 --> 0:39:22.393
<v Speaker 2>Oh, it's one hundred percent coastal. Yeah, yeah, I think

0:39:22.434 --> 0:39:25.593
<v Speaker 2>it's very much place to a particular stereotype. The young

0:39:25.634 --> 0:39:28.074
<v Speaker 2>women that she's talking about in that video, that's where

0:39:28.114 --> 0:39:29.513
<v Speaker 2>they are. Yeah, you know what I mean, they are

0:39:29.514 --> 0:39:32.234
<v Speaker 2>hanging out in those places. It's not like all of

0:39:32.274 --> 0:39:35.594
<v Speaker 2>Australia is like that or that even a few suburbs

0:39:35.634 --> 0:39:38.074
<v Speaker 2>back from the beach is like that. But there's very

0:39:38.154 --> 0:39:40.714
<v Speaker 2>much a kind of a different aesthetic. It's very well

0:39:40.754 --> 0:39:43.554
<v Speaker 2>documented on the internet. You can find a million tiktoks

0:39:43.554 --> 0:39:46.714
<v Speaker 2>of like taking off my British chav makeup, or going

0:39:46.754 --> 0:39:49.314
<v Speaker 2>from a British girl to an American girl, going from

0:39:49.354 --> 0:39:51.594
<v Speaker 2>a British girl to an Australian girl. Like, there are

0:39:51.634 --> 0:39:53.873
<v Speaker 2>no question different stud And.

0:39:53.874 --> 0:39:57.874
<v Speaker 3>You probably wouldn't walk around Manchester barefoot you've any season

0:39:57.914 --> 0:39:59.474
<v Speaker 3>whereas I do that very Oden.

0:39:59.314 --> 0:40:01.114
<v Speaker 2>You really wouldn't.

0:40:01.994 --> 0:40:05.234
<v Speaker 1>After the break, we're going to unpack the article which

0:40:05.314 --> 0:40:09.393
<v Speaker 1>prompted a very heated debate about old mums.

0:40:09.954 --> 0:40:13.274
<v Speaker 3>Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of MUMMYA

0:40:13.314 --> 0:40:16.834
<v Speaker 3>out Loud just for MUMMYA. Subscribers. Follow the link in

0:40:16.874 --> 0:40:18.913
<v Speaker 3>the show notes to get your daily dose of out

0:40:18.914 --> 0:40:24.794
<v Speaker 3>Loud and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

0:40:27.834 --> 0:40:29.913
<v Speaker 1>Gather around. I'm going to tell you a story that

0:40:29.994 --> 0:40:32.474
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people think of as an urban horror story,

0:40:32.474 --> 0:40:34.354
<v Speaker 1>but this one actually happened, and it was in the

0:40:34.394 --> 0:40:38.154
<v Speaker 1>New York Times recently. Mary Beth Lewis is a retired

0:40:38.234 --> 0:40:41.114
<v Speaker 1>nurse living in the suburbs of New York. She had

0:40:41.154 --> 0:40:43.674
<v Speaker 1>five children with her husband, who was a very very

0:40:43.714 --> 0:40:46.993
<v Speaker 1>busy and important airline pilot. And then just as those

0:40:47.034 --> 0:40:49.354
<v Speaker 1>five children started to leave home they went out into

0:40:49.434 --> 0:40:52.234
<v Speaker 1>university or to the workplace. She got lonely. She was

0:40:52.234 --> 0:40:54.194
<v Speaker 1>in her fifties. She said, I want to have more kids.

0:40:54.874 --> 0:40:58.274
<v Speaker 1>So she used IVF to have twins just before her

0:40:58.314 --> 0:41:01.714
<v Speaker 1>fiftieth birthday. And then in her fifties and I need

0:41:01.754 --> 0:41:04.594
<v Speaker 1>to get this exactly right, she had another daughter. She

0:41:04.714 --> 0:41:07.634
<v Speaker 1>had twin boys. She had a third set of twins

0:41:08.074 --> 0:41:11.794
<v Speaker 1>and a thirteenth child. At sixty two, she's got more children.

0:41:11.834 --> 0:41:14.314
<v Speaker 3>And those children she all physically carried and birthed.

0:41:14.394 --> 0:41:16.473
<v Speaker 1>She physically carried in births. And what I took from

0:41:16.474 --> 0:41:18.634
<v Speaker 1>that is, Jesse, I never want to hear you complain

0:41:18.754 --> 0:41:20.154
<v Speaker 1>about carrying twins again.

0:41:20.394 --> 0:41:24.074
<v Speaker 2>What a lightweight you are? I know, Worry Beth is

0:41:24.114 --> 0:41:24.794
<v Speaker 2>the standard.

0:41:24.914 --> 0:41:26.794
<v Speaker 3>She survived it and did it again and again and

0:41:26.834 --> 0:41:30.114
<v Speaker 3>again in her fifties. I'm finding this. This is inspiration

0:41:30.234 --> 0:41:30.754
<v Speaker 3>pawn for me.

0:41:30.954 --> 0:41:34.114
<v Speaker 1>Okay. So next, what happened is that her husband, who

0:41:34.154 --> 0:41:36.754
<v Speaker 1>had recently retired, said I don't want any more kids.

0:41:36.794 --> 0:41:39.873
<v Speaker 1>But here's the problem. Mary Beth wanted more kids. By

0:41:39.874 --> 0:41:42.274
<v Speaker 1>the way, her adult children at this point are begging

0:41:42.314 --> 0:41:45.154
<v Speaker 1>her not to have more children. They were fairly indulgent

0:41:45.274 --> 0:41:47.794
<v Speaker 1>of the couple of kids that she had first naturally

0:41:47.834 --> 0:41:50.234
<v Speaker 1>in her late fifties, but they didn't want her to

0:41:50.274 --> 0:41:52.234
<v Speaker 1>have more kids because they were looking after these kids.

0:41:52.274 --> 0:41:54.234
<v Speaker 1>The adult kids were looking after the little kids.

0:41:54.274 --> 0:41:58.074
<v Speaker 3>And she used IVF throughout her fifties. Correct, yes, she

0:41:58.194 --> 0:41:58.914
<v Speaker 3>used IVF.

0:41:59.034 --> 0:42:02.473
<v Speaker 1>And then what happened was she went behind her partner's back,

0:42:02.514 --> 0:42:06.354
<v Speaker 1>behind her grown children's backs. She hired a surrogate to

0:42:06.434 --> 0:42:11.194
<v Speaker 1>deliver her full fourteenth and her fifteenth children. This is

0:42:11.234 --> 0:42:12.194
<v Speaker 1>where the troubles begin.

0:42:12.394 --> 0:42:14.033
<v Speaker 2>That this is where the troubles begin.

0:42:15.274 --> 0:42:15.714
<v Speaker 1>I think the.

0:42:15.714 --> 0:42:17.714
<v Speaker 2>Troubles have already begun.

0:42:17.914 --> 0:42:20.834
<v Speaker 1>Her fourteenth and her fifteenth children were taken away from

0:42:20.874 --> 0:42:23.194
<v Speaker 1>her before she even got a chance to meet them.

0:42:23.234 --> 0:42:26.034
<v Speaker 1>Because remember these were children who were delivered by surrogates,

0:42:26.394 --> 0:42:28.714
<v Speaker 1>So before she got to hold these children, they were

0:42:28.754 --> 0:42:32.234
<v Speaker 1>whisked away from her and put into foster care. And

0:42:32.314 --> 0:42:36.513
<v Speaker 1>now she's seventy and pursuing legal action to get those

0:42:36.634 --> 0:42:37.274
<v Speaker 1>kids back.

0:42:37.634 --> 0:42:42.074
<v Speaker 3>Wow, who are not genetically hers doesn't have an egg

0:42:42.114 --> 0:42:47.194
<v Speaker 3>of hers or her husband's sperm, but it shares a

0:42:47.234 --> 0:42:51.234
<v Speaker 3>donor with some of the children she's already had, so

0:42:51.394 --> 0:42:56.434
<v Speaker 3>some of her children would be biological siblings to these twins.

0:42:56.874 --> 0:42:59.393
<v Speaker 3>But she and this is where it gets really complicated too,

0:42:59.714 --> 0:43:05.873
<v Speaker 3>is genetically and gestationally and socially, she hasn't been their mother,

0:43:05.994 --> 0:43:08.993
<v Speaker 3>although she was the one who intended and to be born.

0:43:09.194 --> 0:43:12.274
<v Speaker 2>Because in America, this is something you can pay people

0:43:12.314 --> 0:43:12.554
<v Speaker 2>to do.

0:43:12.594 --> 0:43:14.794
<v Speaker 1>Correct, She's paid hundreds of thousands of stars.

0:43:14.954 --> 0:43:18.514
<v Speaker 2>She's basically paid for those children, which I assume is

0:43:18.554 --> 0:43:19.594
<v Speaker 2>part of her legal case.

0:43:19.754 --> 0:43:19.953
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:43:19.994 --> 0:43:23.554
<v Speaker 2>So she's like, I have bought those children, and yet

0:43:23.594 --> 0:43:25.794
<v Speaker 2>I do not have those children that would be part

0:43:25.834 --> 0:43:27.154
<v Speaker 2>of this, wouldn't it I imagine.

0:43:27.114 --> 0:43:29.714
<v Speaker 1>No, that's a great point. Absolutely, And the judge that

0:43:29.754 --> 0:43:32.354
<v Speaker 1>took the children away from her didn't really have a

0:43:32.554 --> 0:43:35.234
<v Speaker 1>very sound legal reasoning for why he did it. He

0:43:35.354 --> 0:43:38.554
<v Speaker 1>basically made a vibes based decision that she was too

0:43:38.634 --> 0:43:40.433
<v Speaker 1>old to look after these kids.

0:43:40.154 --> 0:43:43.114
<v Speaker 2>Which I think lots of people would probably sympathize with.

0:43:43.234 --> 0:43:47.354
<v Speaker 3>But then what's interesting is how many judges, in cases

0:43:47.354 --> 0:43:51.154
<v Speaker 3>of child protection or you know, due to tragic circumstances,

0:43:51.154 --> 0:43:54.154
<v Speaker 3>you lose a mother or a father, would those children

0:43:54.194 --> 0:43:56.114
<v Speaker 3>then go into the custody of the grandparents. That would

0:43:56.114 --> 0:43:59.674
<v Speaker 3>happen all of the time, and that can't be aged discrimination.

0:43:59.754 --> 0:44:02.594
<v Speaker 1>Ed, right, That's a good point. So this is so

0:44:02.834 --> 0:44:05.154
<v Speaker 1>I want to broaden this out to talk about old

0:44:05.234 --> 0:44:07.634
<v Speaker 1>moms and why we have a revulsion of about them.

0:44:08.154 --> 0:44:11.074
<v Speaker 1>But before I get to that, this story, what did

0:44:11.074 --> 0:44:12.354
<v Speaker 1>it make you feel, Holly?

0:44:13.394 --> 0:44:15.314
<v Speaker 2>It made me very sad. I think this is a

0:44:15.354 --> 0:44:17.913
<v Speaker 2>story of extremes. And I know that you should never

0:44:17.994 --> 0:44:21.034
<v Speaker 2>diagnose people who you know. I'm not a professional, but

0:44:21.234 --> 0:44:23.593
<v Speaker 2>Mary Beth to me seems like she has some mental

0:44:23.674 --> 0:44:27.274
<v Speaker 2>illness issues right the bit, as you said, Amelia, the

0:44:27.354 --> 0:44:29.674
<v Speaker 2>kids left home, and she said, in this article it

0:44:29.674 --> 0:44:32.433
<v Speaker 2>says this is empty. She thought, I don't like this

0:44:32.674 --> 0:44:34.873
<v Speaker 2>at all, but so many women That's what I was

0:44:34.874 --> 0:44:36.554
<v Speaker 2>going to say. But what I'm going to say is

0:44:36.634 --> 0:44:40.913
<v Speaker 2>that's a very familiar feeling to lots of people. They

0:44:41.034 --> 0:44:44.434
<v Speaker 2>don't all go, you know what, I'm going to start

0:44:44.434 --> 0:44:47.914
<v Speaker 2>all over again, like to fulfill that. And it reminded

0:44:47.914 --> 0:44:50.393
<v Speaker 2>me of somebody I met recently who she had quite

0:44:50.434 --> 0:44:54.114
<v Speaker 2>a complicated family, but she said her mother loved babies.

0:44:53.874 --> 0:44:56.554
<v Speaker 1>Loved babies, you hear that often, yep.

0:44:56.674 --> 0:44:59.234
<v Speaker 2>And would foster babies in any kind, but then kind

0:44:59.274 --> 0:45:01.194
<v Speaker 2>of lost interest in them as they got a bit older,

0:45:01.234 --> 0:45:05.274
<v Speaker 2>you know, Like I think there is a point obviously

0:45:05.314 --> 0:45:09.834
<v Speaker 2>at which your urges and your desires clash into the

0:45:09.874 --> 0:45:11.913
<v Speaker 2>well being of kids. Now, you know, I don't know

0:45:12.034 --> 0:45:14.954
<v Speaker 2>Mary Beth, and I'm not qualified to say this, but

0:45:15.114 --> 0:45:17.834
<v Speaker 2>it seems to be that in this very extreme case

0:45:17.834 --> 0:45:21.433
<v Speaker 2>of somebody who is fulfilling, as she says, an emptiness

0:45:21.474 --> 0:45:24.794
<v Speaker 2>in her at some point, isn't it fair enough that

0:45:24.874 --> 0:45:28.314
<v Speaker 2>somebody's going to intervene and say, hey, Mary Beth, maybe

0:45:28.314 --> 0:45:30.354
<v Speaker 2>you should just get some therapy.

0:45:30.074 --> 0:45:33.994
<v Speaker 3>And how the rights of a child intersect with the

0:45:34.074 --> 0:45:36.114
<v Speaker 3>rights of a mother, with the rights of a father,

0:45:36.314 --> 0:45:39.634
<v Speaker 3>and then add on top of all of that reproductive technology.

0:45:39.634 --> 0:45:43.674
<v Speaker 3>Because that's the story here, is that what are the

0:45:43.994 --> 0:45:47.954
<v Speaker 3>ethics the limits of reproductive technology?

0:45:47.994 --> 0:45:51.314
<v Speaker 2>And I'm really uncomfortable to say when is too old

0:45:51.354 --> 0:45:54.754
<v Speaker 2>and for there to be Like in Australia, there aren't

0:45:54.834 --> 0:45:57.274
<v Speaker 2>hard and fast rules, but different states and different clinics

0:45:57.274 --> 0:46:01.674
<v Speaker 2>have their own rules. But generally speaking, mid forties is

0:46:01.714 --> 0:46:06.154
<v Speaker 2>often when IVF clinics will stop treating you. If donors

0:46:06.154 --> 0:46:09.274
<v Speaker 2>are involved, they'll push to fifties. This is obviously there

0:46:09.314 --> 0:46:12.634
<v Speaker 2>is actually firm ruling on it, but that's broadly the

0:46:12.674 --> 0:46:15.634
<v Speaker 2>cutoff is seen to be around that time. You know,

0:46:15.714 --> 0:46:17.474
<v Speaker 2>I was an old mum. I was forty when I

0:46:17.514 --> 0:46:19.354
<v Speaker 2>had my second child, and some people would have thoughts

0:46:19.394 --> 0:46:21.314
<v Speaker 2>about that. You often hear people say it's much better

0:46:21.354 --> 0:46:22.953
<v Speaker 2>to have them young and that you won't be around

0:46:22.954 --> 0:46:24.794
<v Speaker 2>when they're old, and da da da da da. But

0:46:24.874 --> 0:46:26.994
<v Speaker 2>as you pointed out with that example about people who

0:46:27.074 --> 0:46:29.473
<v Speaker 2>lose parents and get put in the care of grandparents,

0:46:29.834 --> 0:46:32.754
<v Speaker 2>it's not like having your kids young inoculates you from

0:46:32.754 --> 0:46:35.474
<v Speaker 2>all those eventualities and means you're definitely going to be

0:46:35.474 --> 0:46:37.194
<v Speaker 2>living down the road from them when they have their

0:46:37.274 --> 0:46:39.913
<v Speaker 2>kids and whatever. So I'm not a believer in like

0:46:40.114 --> 0:46:42.554
<v Speaker 2>this is too old, full stop the end, but I

0:46:42.594 --> 0:46:46.594
<v Speaker 2>think this is an extreme case, and in extreme cases,

0:46:46.754 --> 0:46:48.794
<v Speaker 2>I kind of think the intervention is fair enough.

0:46:48.874 --> 0:46:51.234
<v Speaker 1>No, it is an extreme case, and the starts back

0:46:51.274 --> 0:46:54.354
<v Speaker 1>that up. Only something like twelve hundred American women in

0:46:54.394 --> 0:46:56.994
<v Speaker 1>their fifties gave birth in twenty twenty three, which is

0:46:57.034 --> 0:46:59.034
<v Speaker 1>the most recent year stats have been collected, So it

0:46:59.114 --> 0:47:03.194
<v Speaker 1>is an extreme case. But the reason I get uncomfortable

0:47:03.274 --> 0:47:05.834
<v Speaker 1>hearing people say, well, then they'll never be there for

0:47:05.874 --> 0:47:08.433
<v Speaker 1>your high school graduation and they'll never be able to

0:47:08.474 --> 0:47:11.874
<v Speaker 1>see you grow up. It's like we don't decide whether

0:47:12.074 --> 0:47:15.393
<v Speaker 1>women can have children based on whether we know they'll

0:47:15.434 --> 0:47:18.033
<v Speaker 1>be a good mother or not. And it's getting into

0:47:18.074 --> 0:47:19.873
<v Speaker 1>that issue of like, well, but you won't be a

0:47:19.914 --> 0:47:21.474
<v Speaker 1>good enough mother because you won't be there for the

0:47:21.554 --> 0:47:23.794
<v Speaker 1>high school graduation. And if you go down that path,

0:47:24.114 --> 0:47:26.514
<v Speaker 1>then you're going to start deeming all sorts of mothers

0:47:26.594 --> 0:47:29.714
<v Speaker 1>not particularly good mothers for various reasons because of choices

0:47:29.754 --> 0:47:32.354
<v Speaker 1>they made because of how they live their lives, and

0:47:32.594 --> 0:47:35.114
<v Speaker 1>that's what bothers me about the moralism around it. I

0:47:35.154 --> 0:47:38.554
<v Speaker 1>also want to say that Mary Beth, by all accounts,

0:47:38.634 --> 0:47:41.473
<v Speaker 1>was an excellent mother. And so even in this very

0:47:41.474 --> 0:47:44.194
<v Speaker 1>long New York Times magazine piece which we're talking about,

0:47:44.234 --> 0:47:48.154
<v Speaker 1>which is clearly very skeptical about her case, legally, her

0:47:48.234 --> 0:47:51.074
<v Speaker 1>children talk about she was an amazing mother. She took

0:47:51.114 --> 0:47:53.594
<v Speaker 1>them lots of interesting places, even when they didn't have

0:47:53.594 --> 0:47:56.074
<v Speaker 1>a lot of money, and then when they did acquire

0:47:56.154 --> 0:47:59.194
<v Speaker 1>more money, when her husband's career took off, she still

0:47:59.274 --> 0:48:01.834
<v Speaker 1>really wanted to make sure that she was there for

0:48:01.874 --> 0:48:04.114
<v Speaker 1>them and that she was there emotionally for them, which

0:48:04.154 --> 0:48:07.393
<v Speaker 1>by all accounts she was. There's another interesting dynam in

0:48:07.434 --> 0:48:10.433
<v Speaker 1>her story, which is that her husband was clearly a

0:48:10.594 --> 0:48:14.434
<v Speaker 1>very absent father, so he was the primary bread winner

0:48:14.514 --> 0:48:18.034
<v Speaker 1>in that he was this successful commercial airline pilot. He

0:48:18.114 --> 0:48:21.274
<v Speaker 1>was never there, and what the story makes clear is

0:48:21.314 --> 0:48:24.513
<v Speaker 1>that they liked it that way. He liked not being there.

0:48:24.554 --> 0:48:27.194
<v Speaker 1>He liked, as the story says, taking selfies in front

0:48:27.234 --> 0:48:28.913
<v Speaker 1>of the Sydney Opera House when he was down in

0:48:28.914 --> 0:48:32.074
<v Speaker 1>Australia after flying a plane there, or he liked having

0:48:32.114 --> 0:48:34.714
<v Speaker 1>a beer in airport hotel bars at the end of

0:48:34.754 --> 0:48:37.473
<v Speaker 1>a long flight. He didn't particularly want to be there

0:48:37.514 --> 0:48:40.474
<v Speaker 1>for the kids. She loved being there for the kids.

0:48:41.154 --> 0:48:44.154
<v Speaker 1>And I think that adds this whole other complicated wrinkle

0:48:44.154 --> 0:48:44.914
<v Speaker 1>into the story.

0:48:45.074 --> 0:48:48.874
<v Speaker 3>Does And I felt throughout the story an enormous amount

0:48:48.914 --> 0:48:51.834
<v Speaker 3>of empathy for mary Beth. And I kept thinking, there

0:48:51.874 --> 0:48:54.834
<v Speaker 3>is nothing quite like the desire to have children.

0:48:55.234 --> 0:48:59.194
<v Speaker 2>She had thirteen children already. I want to be empathetic, Jesse,

0:48:59.274 --> 0:49:01.913
<v Speaker 2>and I am to a point. But it's not like

0:49:02.034 --> 0:49:03.554
<v Speaker 2>she didn't have children.

0:49:03.754 --> 0:49:06.554
<v Speaker 3>No, no, I know, but like, for example, so I

0:49:06.634 --> 0:49:11.674
<v Speaker 3>had Luna, and then I would have gone to enormous

0:49:11.754 --> 0:49:12.874
<v Speaker 3>lengths to have another baby.

0:49:12.914 --> 0:49:15.834
<v Speaker 2>I know, Jesse. But again, you can't compare yourself.

0:49:17.474 --> 0:49:20.234
<v Speaker 3>Your spot on, your spot on, And that's why I

0:49:20.354 --> 0:49:24.634
<v Speaker 3>kept kind of reminding, like, this is a human being

0:49:24.634 --> 0:49:27.074
<v Speaker 3>who longs for her two children, and I kept kind

0:49:27.114 --> 0:49:30.514
<v Speaker 3>of coming back to the humanity in that experience. The

0:49:30.594 --> 0:49:34.274
<v Speaker 3>other element in terms of reproductive technologies is that they

0:49:34.514 --> 0:49:39.234
<v Speaker 3>could in certain embryo into mary Beth. The twins that

0:49:39.274 --> 0:49:42.834
<v Speaker 3>she had right before her fiftieth birthday nearly killed her.

0:49:43.274 --> 0:49:47.314
<v Speaker 3>Like she had such an awful complication that she could

0:49:47.394 --> 0:49:51.914
<v Speaker 3>have died, and that puts health professionals in such a

0:49:52.034 --> 0:49:56.194
<v Speaker 3>The resources it takes for someone who is fifty five

0:49:56.394 --> 0:49:58.873
<v Speaker 3>fifty nine giving birth to a set of twins like

0:49:58.914 --> 0:50:00.914
<v Speaker 3>that is an enormous.

0:50:00.754 --> 0:50:02.953
<v Speaker 2>So they actually refused, didn't they to let her have

0:50:03.034 --> 0:50:03.594
<v Speaker 2>good lust.

0:50:03.634 --> 0:50:06.714
<v Speaker 3>So they said she wanted to have naturally as in

0:50:06.874 --> 0:50:11.033
<v Speaker 3>birth children after the age of sixty, and they said,

0:50:11.114 --> 0:50:14.513
<v Speaker 3>you've had six seed sections and the scar is paper thing.

0:50:14.594 --> 0:50:16.834
<v Speaker 3>You will bleed to death. If you try and carry

0:50:16.874 --> 0:50:19.393
<v Speaker 3>this child, you'll bleed to death. So that's kind of

0:50:19.434 --> 0:50:25.033
<v Speaker 3>another element. But then it's an uncomfortable conversation because you'd

0:50:25.114 --> 0:50:29.913
<v Speaker 3>never want to shame. What reproductive technology has done for

0:50:30.194 --> 0:50:33.354
<v Speaker 3>same sex couples, for people who would otherwise not have

0:50:33.434 --> 0:50:36.634
<v Speaker 3>children at any age is incredible.

0:50:36.874 --> 0:50:39.634
<v Speaker 2>And also the thing is, as you've touched on, the

0:50:39.714 --> 0:50:42.314
<v Speaker 2>reason why this is quite an interesting thing to consider,

0:50:42.634 --> 0:50:45.994
<v Speaker 2>is that reproductive technology is one thing, but also longevity

0:50:46.074 --> 0:50:48.393
<v Speaker 2>science is another. And we are seeing the people are

0:50:48.474 --> 0:50:51.674
<v Speaker 2>convinced that they can live better, healthier, for longer, and

0:50:51.674 --> 0:50:53.514
<v Speaker 2>that your forties isn't what your forties used to be,

0:50:53.634 --> 0:50:55.554
<v Speaker 2>and your fifties isn't what your fifties used to be.

0:50:56.114 --> 0:50:59.354
<v Speaker 2>And so there is a perception and I've heard it

0:50:59.434 --> 0:51:02.674
<v Speaker 2>talked about on American podcasts and things like that, whatever

0:51:02.834 --> 0:51:05.513
<v Speaker 2>cutoff limit we used to have in our minds for

0:51:05.794 --> 0:51:07.433
<v Speaker 2>when a woman and it's always a woman, as I'm

0:51:07.434 --> 0:51:09.274
<v Speaker 2>sure we're about to get to, but when a woman

0:51:09.674 --> 0:51:13.274
<v Speaker 2>should have a baby like that gate is being bashed

0:51:13.354 --> 0:51:17.634
<v Speaker 2>down with you know, all the supplements and health breakthroughs

0:51:17.674 --> 0:51:19.634
<v Speaker 2>and fertility, and so we are going to have to

0:51:19.634 --> 0:51:22.314
<v Speaker 2>grapple with these issues. But I agree with you Amelia

0:51:22.354 --> 0:51:24.714
<v Speaker 2>that putting moralism around it is nonsense.

0:51:24.754 --> 0:51:25.714
<v Speaker 3>It's dangerous.

0:51:25.754 --> 0:51:28.634
<v Speaker 2>But at the same time, Mary Beth Babe, I think

0:51:29.154 --> 0:51:31.194
<v Speaker 2>maybe thirteen children is enough.

0:51:31.234 --> 0:51:34.554
<v Speaker 1>Mary BET's got some unique problems. But you know what's

0:51:34.674 --> 0:51:39.234
<v Speaker 1>not that extreme is old dads and celebrity old dads.

0:51:39.314 --> 0:51:41.473
<v Speaker 1>There's no tut tutting about them. There is a little

0:51:41.514 --> 0:51:43.914
<v Speaker 1>bit more increasingly, I think, but for a long time

0:51:43.994 --> 0:51:46.234
<v Speaker 1>there it was sort of seen as a mark of

0:51:46.274 --> 0:51:49.034
<v Speaker 1>pride that they were still virile enough to father children.

0:51:49.114 --> 0:51:52.354
<v Speaker 1>And just a couple of extreme examples from the celebrity world.

0:51:52.394 --> 0:51:55.873
<v Speaker 1>Al Pacino became a dad for a fourth time last

0:51:55.914 --> 0:52:00.114
<v Speaker 1>year at eighty three eighty three, and just last month

0:52:00.234 --> 0:52:02.714
<v Speaker 1>Kelsey Grammar, congrats he became a dad for the eighth

0:52:02.714 --> 0:52:06.634
<v Speaker 1>time at seventy. And there is no judge taking those

0:52:06.714 --> 0:52:09.513
<v Speaker 1>children or taking custody of those children away from these

0:52:09.554 --> 0:52:10.074
<v Speaker 1>old dads.

0:52:10.114 --> 0:52:12.594
<v Speaker 2>I now is that there is no judge taking them

0:52:12.634 --> 0:52:15.114
<v Speaker 2>away because they think that they're in the care of

0:52:15.154 --> 0:52:16.034
<v Speaker 2>their younger mothers.

0:52:16.154 --> 0:52:16.354
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:52:16.434 --> 0:52:18.354
<v Speaker 2>So the age of the women these men are having

0:52:18.434 --> 0:52:23.314
<v Speaker 2>children are spoiler alert Hollway, Yeah, is quite a lot less. However,

0:52:23.474 --> 0:52:27.114
<v Speaker 2>I do feel very judgy about those guys like I do.

0:52:27.314 --> 0:52:29.393
<v Speaker 2>Why do I feel so judgy about that? Why do

0:52:29.474 --> 0:52:30.154
<v Speaker 2>I feel.

0:52:29.914 --> 0:52:32.754
<v Speaker 1>Because science says that as men's sperm gets older, the

0:52:32.914 --> 0:52:35.913
<v Speaker 1>risk of medical complications increases. We don't talk about that

0:52:35.954 --> 0:52:38.354
<v Speaker 1>as much as we do as for women, but it's true.

0:52:38.434 --> 0:52:41.154
<v Speaker 2>And do I also think that the eighty three year

0:52:41.154 --> 0:52:44.473
<v Speaker 2>old al Pacino is you know, I is not.

0:52:44.394 --> 0:52:45.954
<v Speaker 3>Taking the responsibility seriously?

0:52:46.074 --> 0:52:48.474
<v Speaker 2>Well? No. And also, although I very much agree with

0:52:48.514 --> 0:52:50.594
<v Speaker 2>what you said before, Amelia about we don't go around

0:52:50.594 --> 0:52:52.274
<v Speaker 2>saying or you should be able to have children because

0:52:52.274 --> 0:52:53.674
<v Speaker 2>you're going to live a long time and be at

0:52:53.714 --> 0:52:57.953
<v Speaker 2>the graduation, which is a nonsense idea. But al Pacino

0:52:58.594 --> 0:53:01.234
<v Speaker 2>eighty three like it's really not going to be around it.

0:53:01.434 --> 0:53:04.034
<v Speaker 2>So it doesn't feel like the fathering part of that

0:53:04.154 --> 0:53:08.154
<v Speaker 2>is like an active choice more and again, maybe I'm

0:53:08.234 --> 0:53:11.754
<v Speaker 2>judging too much or something that his younger partner wanted.

0:53:12.194 --> 0:53:14.433
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, his job is to exist and a mother's job

0:53:14.474 --> 0:53:15.433
<v Speaker 3>is to do everything else.

0:53:15.594 --> 0:53:15.914
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

0:53:16.914 --> 0:53:20.834
<v Speaker 3>Now, while we're on the topic of parenting, Amelia, you

0:53:21.154 --> 0:53:24.634
<v Speaker 3>cheat on us on Saturdays with Parenting out Loud. Can

0:53:24.674 --> 0:53:28.154
<v Speaker 3>you tell us what is on your agenda for Saturday's episode?

0:53:28.394 --> 0:53:30.834
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, think of me as the Orlando Bloom to your

0:53:30.914 --> 0:53:34.674
<v Speaker 1>Katie part if you will. I do another podcast on

0:53:34.674 --> 0:53:38.714
<v Speaker 1>this network called Parenting out Loud with Mons and Stacy, Yes,

0:53:38.834 --> 0:53:41.714
<v Speaker 1>who are known to the out Loud universe, and it's

0:53:41.754 --> 0:53:43.954
<v Speaker 1>similar to what we chat about here on out Loud.

0:53:44.234 --> 0:53:47.674
<v Speaker 1>It feels very similar. It's not parenting advice. It's not

0:53:47.794 --> 0:53:51.074
<v Speaker 1>oh gosh, I have spit up on my shirt and eyes.

0:53:51.074 --> 0:53:52.314
<v Speaker 3>Like the conversation we just had.

0:53:52.514 --> 0:53:54.754
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm not like a clip art of like a

0:53:54.834 --> 0:53:57.234
<v Speaker 1>working mom with like you know, the laptop and the

0:53:57.314 --> 0:54:00.994
<v Speaker 1>high heels. Like these are real conversations, really thinky conversations

0:54:01.034 --> 0:54:05.794
<v Speaker 1>about what's in the parenting zeitgeist. It's the conversation I

0:54:05.834 --> 0:54:08.433
<v Speaker 1>think the parents really want to have, but which they

0:54:08.514 --> 0:54:10.873
<v Speaker 1>might be too scared to voice out loud and with

0:54:10.954 --> 0:54:11.554
<v Speaker 1>my friends.

0:54:11.594 --> 0:54:12.914
<v Speaker 3>What's Saturday's episode about?

0:54:13.194 --> 0:54:17.154
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so this week we're talking about a very controversial

0:54:17.514 --> 0:54:20.553
<v Speaker 1>new skincare brand has launched for little kids. We're talking

0:54:20.594 --> 0:54:21.314
<v Speaker 1>like three year old.

0:54:21.234 --> 0:54:23.994
<v Speaker 2>I've seen this, Yeah, yeah, and I'm dying to know

0:54:23.994 --> 0:54:24.714
<v Speaker 2>what you think about that.

0:54:24.834 --> 0:54:27.393
<v Speaker 1>Where we got to on that was we sort of

0:54:27.394 --> 0:54:30.474
<v Speaker 1>wanted to talk about whether girlhood is just another consumer

0:54:30.554 --> 0:54:33.714
<v Speaker 1>identity now it's just another thing to buy, another market

0:54:33.754 --> 0:54:36.234
<v Speaker 1>to pitch too, and is that bad? Like how should

0:54:36.234 --> 0:54:38.913
<v Speaker 1>we feel about that? And we also wanted to talk

0:54:38.914 --> 0:54:41.754
<v Speaker 1>about that phrase it takes a village, And where we

0:54:41.834 --> 0:54:45.634
<v Speaker 1>got to is that maybe millennial parents don't want a village,

0:54:45.794 --> 0:54:49.473
<v Speaker 1>Like maybe that's inconvenient, maybe it's too much trouble. Maybe

0:54:49.554 --> 0:54:53.674
<v Speaker 1>we actually don't want a village anymore. Very controversial. So

0:54:53.874 --> 0:54:56.754
<v Speaker 1>search Parenting out loud and hit follow and come join

0:54:56.874 --> 0:54:58.274
<v Speaker 1>us out louders.

0:54:58.314 --> 0:55:00.474
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for being here with us today.

0:55:00.554 --> 0:55:03.594
<v Speaker 2>Remember we're on YouTube and if you watch today's episode

0:55:03.594 --> 0:55:06.393
<v Speaker 2>on YouTube, you would have seen my face when I

0:55:06.474 --> 0:55:07.754
<v Speaker 2>was going can't tell me?

0:55:09.794 --> 0:55:10.914
<v Speaker 1>And your beachy.

0:55:10.554 --> 0:55:14.834
<v Speaker 2>Waves and Beachy Waves. But you can always catch all

0:55:14.874 --> 0:55:17.314
<v Speaker 2>of the episodes on YouTube if you want to. There

0:55:17.514 --> 0:55:19.194
<v Speaker 2>is a link in the show notes. Thank you to

0:55:19.194 --> 0:55:21.834
<v Speaker 2>our amazing team for putting the show together. We'll see

0:55:21.834 --> 0:55:22.314
<v Speaker 2>you tomorrow.

0:55:22.674 --> 0:55:29.114
<v Speaker 1>Bye bye.

0:55:29.954 --> 0:55:32.953
<v Speaker 3>Mar Mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on

0:55:32.994 --> 0:55:34.834
<v Speaker 3>which we have recorded this podcast.