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Speaker 1: You're listening to a mother and mea podcast. You were

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Speaker 1: so pretty jesty.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 3: I was just thinking I just looked very, very washed down.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to hear you complain anymore. Very best.

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to say, Mary best to you anytime time.

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Speaker 3: Well, I was saying that how many times did she have?

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Speaker 3: I think she's got at least three sets? And she

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Speaker 3: was all right, So I'm like, mate, I can do it.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to MoMA Mia out loud. It's what

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Speaker 2: women are actually talking about on Wednesday, the twelfth of November.

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Speaker 2: I'm Holly Wayne Wright, I'm Amelia Lester.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And here's what's made our agenda for today.

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Speaker 1: A sixty five year old woman was denied custody of

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Speaker 1: her fifteenth child by US court. Now that story is wild,

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Speaker 1: and we will bring you all the details about it,

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Speaker 1: but it's also provoked a lot of debate around the

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Speaker 1: office here about why old moms get so many feelings

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Speaker 1: and so much outrage and old dad is just going

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Speaker 1: to pass.

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Speaker 3: I was late to this record because I cornered me

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Speaker 3: out and we just couldn't stop talking about it. I

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Speaker 3: have so many thoughts about this story. I'm desperate to

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Speaker 3: talk about it.

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Speaker 2: Also, what's a grief vampire? And why is an alleged

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Speaker 2: one filling theaters around Australia this week?

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Speaker 3: And Black Friday creep You may have noticed it. I

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Speaker 3: very unsurprisingly have some concerns I would like to table.

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Speaker 2: But first, in case you missed it, and I'm sure

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Speaker 2: you did, Princess Anne is here and nobody cares even

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Speaker 2: a little bit.

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Speaker 3: You didn't put that in my calendar, I know.

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Speaker 2: And the given all the who ha, we have a

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Speaker 2: Brown Royal tours. It's amazing that the fourth most popular royal.

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Speaker 2: Actually I think she's the third one popular royal.

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Speaker 3: It's such a lie.

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Speaker 2: She's the third most to the UK Government. They survey

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Speaker 2: this stuff.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't pick her out of a lineup. I probably

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Speaker 3: walked past her on the way to the office. There's

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Speaker 3: no way I'd advertize her.

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Speaker 2: Our producer's husband did walk past. She just walk pretty

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Speaker 2: down anyway. She is the third most popular royal because

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Speaker 2: she is well known for being the most hard working. Right,

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Speaker 2: so the royal ranking as of now, according to the

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Speaker 2: UK Government, goes Catherine William and Charlie. There you go

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Speaker 2: just I'm telling you if these are facts facts anyway,

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Speaker 2: the fact that we don't know I was all very oh, look,

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Speaker 2: we only care about royals when they're young and glamorous

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Speaker 2: and dah da da dah. But it's actually a little

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Speaker 2: bit by design. She's here at the invitation of the

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Speaker 2: Australian Army because they're celebrating the centenary of the Royal

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Speaker 2: Australian Corps of Signals and she is their colonel in chief.

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Speaker 3: So is it Remembering Stay adjacent, Yes.

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Speaker 2: It's Remembering Day adjacent. It's their centenary and that is

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Speaker 2: an area of the army that doesn't get as much

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Speaker 2: glory as a lot of the others because it's not

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Speaker 2: a combat wing. But it's like signalers communications support, so

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Speaker 2: not unlike Princess and vital to the operation, but not

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Speaker 2: necessarily getting all the heralding anyway. So she's here, she's

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Speaker 2: doing a few cities. She apparently brings a tiny entrige,

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Speaker 2: so just her husband Tim, who inspects the troops with

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Speaker 2: her and stuff, her secretary and like one assistant.

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Speaker 1: So she does not bring, as Charles's rumor to a

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Speaker 1: mobile martini mixer who travels with her everywhere.

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Speaker 2: She's really missed a trick there.

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Speaker 3: I think she sources them like a lee.

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Speaker 2: Well, we do have good Martini tit, so she keeps

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Speaker 2: it on the down low. And also none of the

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Speaker 2: royal roader have come, so none of the big royal

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Speaker 2: reporters are following Anna around. They've all been in Brazil

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Speaker 2: photographing William looking handsome on the Amazon and Rememberance Day

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Speaker 2: in England where all the other royals have been on display.

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Speaker 2: So I just want it out there that there is

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Speaker 2: a royal in our midst. But that brings us to

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Speaker 2: the other bit of royal gossip from today, Harry and Mix,

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Speaker 2: the Dutchess and Duke of wherever it is they live

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Speaker 2: these days. Want Sito went to christ Jenna's seventieth birthday

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Speaker 2: party that you wonderful people discussed on Monday. It was

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Speaker 2: the most star studied of events.

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Speaker 1: The fallout continues, it really does.

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Speaker 2: They were photographed with Chris, with Kim, with everyone until

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Speaker 2: they were okay.

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Speaker 3: Can you explain this to me because I keep seeing

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Speaker 3: the headline that photos were deleted? So did Chris and

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Speaker 3: Kim actually post photos with Meghan Harry and then remove

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Speaker 3: those photos? Why?

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Speaker 2: Well, This is what we need to unpack because obviously

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Speaker 2: there isn't an official line why but as somebody who

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Speaker 2: has been following this party obsessively, because I cannot get

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Speaker 2: my head around the fact there was a party that

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Speaker 2: Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Beyonce, like, it just boggles me.

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Speaker 2: I can't get my friends in the same room, like anyway.

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Speaker 3: I don't, Yeah, your friends aren't.

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Speaker 2: Surely are important anyway. I've been following it. So I

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Speaker 2: saw all the pictures, and there's Harry and Meg's with

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Speaker 2: various Kardashians just last night with the pictures of just

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Speaker 2: Meghan and Kim together smiling for the cameras. Today all gone.

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Speaker 2: The reporting is that Harry and Meghan requested them to

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Speaker 2: be taken down. What do we think about that?

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Speaker 1: So some context. On the same night was the biggest

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Speaker 1: celebrity event of the year in Los Angeles outside of

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Speaker 1: industry events, which is Baby to Baby's gala. Baby to

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Speaker 1: Baby is a charity exclusively populated by a less celebrities,

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Speaker 1: and everyone wants to be invited to that gala. It's

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Speaker 1: like a really big deal to be invited to that gala.

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Speaker 1: And Harry Meghan went to that and I think that

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Speaker 1: they just sort of thought of Christianna's party is a

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Speaker 1: bit of an after party, a bit of a lark

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Speaker 1: to go to after the main event of the evening,

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Speaker 1: which was again a big deal for them to be

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Speaker 1: invited to. And I just think they thought they were

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Speaker 1: going to go under the radar.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure you're right that they did, but what

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Speaker 2: a stupid thing to think. Have you met a Cardashian before,

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Speaker 2: do you think they're not going.

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Speaker 1: To be They're not under the radar people.

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Speaker 3: So our theory is that Meghan and Harry have asked

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Speaker 3: for them removal.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I think that's that's clear. But the question

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Speaker 1: is why, why do you think?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think they immediately I mean, not that this

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Speaker 2: is new, but they immediately got a lot of flak

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Speaker 2: for being at that party, even though, as discussed, the

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Speaker 2: most powerful people in the world were at that party.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of sneering and this shows how far

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Speaker 2: from the royal family they've fallen and stuff. I think

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Speaker 2: it's not very on brand for Harry, who's still trying

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Speaker 2: to keep a foot in the royal camp, to have

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Speaker 2: been at that party. But in my opinion, they look

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Speaker 2: like idiots for asking those pictures to be taken down.

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Speaker 2: Either don't go, or go and know that you're going

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Speaker 2: to be photographed. Yeah, they're a picture of Bill Gates

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Speaker 2: and Mark Zuckerberg playing what's the thing you play with

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Speaker 2: the discs Roulette? And I'm like, if they can be

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Speaker 2: photographed at Christians but you're too precious and important.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Because the other theory is that it was Remembrance

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Speaker 3: Day weekend and now he was wearing his poppies, and

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Speaker 3: he was wearing his poppy, which in an American context

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Speaker 3: didn't make sense to a lot of.

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Speaker 1: Everyone would have thought of it as just sort of

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Speaker 1: a corsage flower. By the way, I love his thought

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Speaker 1: process on that. So he and Meg's are getting ready,

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Speaker 1: He's like, no, it's really important that I wear the

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Speaker 1: poppy for Remembrance Day, which is not marked in the US,

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Speaker 1: so no one's going to know what I'm doing, but

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Speaker 1: it's really important because is there any better way to

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Speaker 1: mark and to commemorate the sacrifice of the fallen. Then

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Speaker 1: by going to Chris Jenny.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to defend him because all this criticism and

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Speaker 3: chatter going look over here at what Kate and William

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Speaker 3: are doing. They're at all the really long ceremonies in

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Speaker 3: their black looking very somber and doing all the royal things.

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Speaker 2: It's a big deal.

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Speaker 3: And then it is a stark contrast to then see

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Speaker 3: Megan and Harry. But of course the context that a

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Speaker 3: lot of that reporting missed was how many events Harry

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Speaker 3: did that week that were very much in you know,

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Speaker 3: his work with Jesse.

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Speaker 1: Come on, I did a lot then, to Chris Jenner's

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Speaker 1: party at Jeff bezos Man.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think Jesse. I don't have a problem with

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Speaker 2: them going, like they should go to all the celebrity

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Speaker 2: parties they want to. My problem is going And again

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Speaker 2: I'm with you, let's pretend we didn't go, because that

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Speaker 2: might be a bad look. It's like, if you're worried

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Speaker 2: about your reputation and remembers to and all the things,

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Speaker 2: then don't go, just go home after the baby to

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Speaker 2: baby and put your feet up, or you go and

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Speaker 2: you embrace the fact that you are at a party.

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Speaker 3: Own it that.

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Speaker 2: Literally exists for the purposes of being shown off on

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Speaker 2: social media. I have seen more pictures of that party

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Speaker 2: than I've seen of your wedding.

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Speaker 3: Oh, one hundred percent. My favorite hobby now is zooming

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Speaker 3: in to see what celebrities I can find in the

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Speaker 3: background who didn't make it into the foreground, Like it

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Speaker 3: is so star studded, it is so fun just own

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Speaker 3: that you went.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw this photo. Did you

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Speaker 1: see Justin Bieber coming into the party?

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Speaker 3: It was side on, so I didn't know it was

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Speaker 3: Justin Bieber saw him down there.

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Speaker 1: He is famously underdressed. We've seen many pictures of him

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Speaker 1: dressed in basketball shorts next to his impeccably dressed wife,

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Speaker 1: Haley Bieber. But on this occasion he did wear a suit.

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Speaker 1: It's really unfortunate though, because he must have put the

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Speaker 1: suit on and then decided that he really needed to

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Speaker 1: bake some sour dough, because he did have a little

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Speaker 1: bit of flower on his power white powder. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: sometimes you just got to bake a sour dough, don't you.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, Or you've just eaten some and you get a

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Speaker 3: little bit of a white mark powder, a flower flower.

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Speaker 1: My hero of the party, though, is the cranky neighbor

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Speaker 1: who called the cops.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you're.

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Speaker 1: Out, Like this is what we say when we say

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Speaker 1: eat the rich. What we really mean is call the

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Speaker 1: cops on the rich People's party. Good on?

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Speaker 3: You can we urgently talk about Black Friday creep because

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Speaker 3: according to my very thorough research, Black Friday sales officially

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Speaker 3: twenty eighth of November, and according to Holly wayIn right

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Speaker 3: at the top of Today's show, today is only November.

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Speaker 3: That's true, So there are days between now and Black Friday.

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Speaker 3: So why is the top email in my inbox about

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Speaker 3: Black Friday sales?

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Speaker 2: They're kicking off in Australia on November the eighteenth, That's

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Speaker 2: what I've been told, Like it might be the twenty eighth,

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Speaker 2: but I think it starts on the eighteenth. But then

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Speaker 2: it's already started.

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Speaker 3: On some sites I don't know, they've already kicked off.

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Speaker 3: And we are also already in the midst of something

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Speaker 3: called click Frenzy.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's that.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, Sorry, yeah, I don't know what's click friends.

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Speaker 3: Click Frenzy started maybe yesterday and it ends at midnight

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Speaker 3: on Friday, and it's three full days of just mad

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Speaker 3: internet sales. I guess, so click Frenzy is upon us.

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Speaker 1: What about Cyber Monday.

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Speaker 3: Cyber Monday is first of December.

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Speaker 1: And then there's giving Tuesday. Okay, what's Giving Tuesday.

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Speaker 2: It's Giving Tuesday. Really Giving.

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Speaker 1: Giving Tuesday is the one where you meant to give

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Speaker 1: to charity, and weirdly it hasn't taken off like the

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Speaker 1: other That's.

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Speaker 2: What I've had off Giving Tuesday, which is the worst

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Speaker 2: day of the week.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So I have a question. I know this originated

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Speaker 3: in the US, the whole Black Friday thing. Can you, Amelia,

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Speaker 3: can you explain the context because I'm confused as to

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Speaker 3: why the end of November is now I'm being in sale.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's really confusing because of the Black Friday.

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Speaker 1: The origins of this will make it even more confusing. Basically,

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Speaker 1: around the nineteen eighties in the US, Black Friday emerged

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Speaker 1: as the biggest shopping day of the year, and there's

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Speaker 1: always a particular date that it's on, and that date

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Speaker 1: is the day after Thanksgiving, and Thanksgiving is the fourth

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Speaker 1: Thursday in November. Now, the reason why that's such a

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Speaker 1: big deal to hold on to in the context of

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Speaker 1: this conversation is because there's a sort of unspoken rule

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Speaker 1: in the US that you do not think or talk

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Speaker 1: about Christmas until after Thanksgiving. I like that, and so

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Speaker 1: as soon as Thanksgivings over, then you start thinking about Christmas.

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Speaker 1: Then you hit the sales. But the problem with this

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Speaker 1: Black Friday creep is that even in Australia, no one

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Speaker 1: is thinking about Christmas yet.

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Speaker 2: I have bad news feel on that front, a Melia,

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Speaker 2: because every shop I've been into in the past two

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Speaker 2: weeks has all their decorations up. My Walley's bag already

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Speaker 2: has ballbles on it. There's a massive Christmas tree in

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Speaker 2: the middle of Sydney. We've already started Christmas on the record.

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Speaker 2: Last year, I got a lot of a lot of

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Speaker 2: feed back for my grinchy complaints about Christmas starting too early.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not going to do that this year, but noted.

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Speaker 2: But I feel like that's part of the problem. Because

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Speaker 2: we brought Christmas forward to November one, we have to

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Speaker 2: bring shopping.

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Speaker 1: We have brought it to November the first. And you

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Speaker 1: know how, I know that even in the US Mariah Carey,

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Speaker 1: whose song All I Want for Christmas Is You is

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Speaker 1: one of the most played songs of all time and

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Speaker 1: every year she makes something like ten million dollars off

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Speaker 1: the royalties of that one song alone. Now people start

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Speaker 1: to say that it's all I want for Christmas season,

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Speaker 1: and she's been releasing a video the last few years

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Speaker 1: declaring that it is the Christmas season, and this year

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Speaker 1: the video hit earlier than ever before. It hit on

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Speaker 1: November the first, and speaking to the capitalistic times that

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Speaker 1: we live in. It was also a tie in with

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Speaker 1: Sephora for a sale that they were having, which was

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Speaker 1: a pre Black Friday's sale, a.

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Speaker 3: Pre click frenzy. This is my question, John, say, click friendly,

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Speaker 3: you're buying into the hype? Am I being frenzy? I

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Speaker 3: hate the word? Am I being a grinch? Or maybe

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Speaker 3: is this a cost of a living story? Like are

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Speaker 3: we so pinched? I think finger wagging too much at

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Speaker 3: people who go hard at Black Friday sales is really

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Speaker 3: annoying because often there is there are some people who

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Speaker 3: are so organized, they've got their Christmas lists, they can

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Speaker 3: get good deals like go ahead. But is that what

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Speaker 3: this season is about? Is that they know that people

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Speaker 3: are trying to be more organized and more intentional or

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Speaker 3: is it about over consumerism, marketing spin? This is all terrible, Holly,

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Speaker 3: what do you think?

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Speaker 2: Well, the serious answer is it's about trying to prop

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Speaker 2: up flagging retail sales. Right, So if you talk to

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Speaker 2: any business owner. They will tell you that in the

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Speaker 2: past couple of years, Christmas is quiet. This is the

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Speaker 2: time of year that is crazy. So end of November,

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Speaker 2: if you're like a jewelry business online, if you're a lady,

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Speaker 2: start at whatever. Lee Campbell says this about Brillow Beauty's

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Speaker 2: shifted to now crazy crazy crazy. And then actually, the

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Speaker 2: few weeks before Christmas are quiet.

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Speaker 3: So we sorry, are we doing our Christmas shopping right now?

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Speaker 1: Well?

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Speaker 2: I'm not because I'm a deeply disorganized person.

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Speaker 1: But Holly, do you think no? Of course not. You

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Speaker 1: think that that is because people are buying stuff online

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Speaker 1: these days more than in shops, and so they have

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Speaker 1: to build in the shipping time.

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Speaker 2: Is that why I reckon? That's a large part of it.

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Speaker 2: Although I have heard recently the bricks and mortars on

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Speaker 2: its way back in a big way. But if you

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Speaker 2: imagine that younger generations in particular do most of their

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Speaker 2: shopping online, it's like, get them to start thinking about

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Speaker 2: that early, to spread it across time. Now, the thing

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Speaker 2: that's tricky is so I feel personally attacked by this

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Speaker 2: because I have no idea what to buy anyone for Christmas.

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Speaker 2: In November. But this behavior is teaching me, it's training

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Speaker 2: me and changing my behavior. In research for this segment today,

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Speaker 2: I tick something off my Christmas list because any parent

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Speaker 2: of teenager will be familiar with the PowerPoint presentation that

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Speaker 2: you would get given that says these are the things

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Speaker 2: I would like for Christmas. Please. It always comes with

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Speaker 2: the caveat of I don't expect to get them all,

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Speaker 2: but here are twenty five expensive things I'd like with links.

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Speaker 2: And my daughter started making that one and keeps texting

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Speaker 2: me the things. And when I was doing my research

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Speaker 2: on Black Friday, I was like, oh, those ogs, they

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Speaker 2: are thirty percent off.

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Speaker 3: Fantastic done.

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Speaker 2: So it's training me, it's changing my behavior. What are

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Speaker 2: the bad things you're going to say about this? That's

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Speaker 2: just made my life better?

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Speaker 3: Okay, the bad things will be that a study came

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Speaker 3: out in the last few years that said eighty percent

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Speaker 3: of what people buy Black Friday sales is going to

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Speaker 3: go into after zero or one use is going to

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Speaker 3: go into some sort of landfill.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I've been on my goal this year of not buying

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Speaker 3: anything new. I must say I have broken that roll

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Speaker 3: a few times. Every time I'm in Westfield I just

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Speaker 3: know that there's an out louder I'm tutting, and I'm like,

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Speaker 3: no fair, I need some shame.

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Speaker 2: No, you are pragnant with twigs.

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Speaker 3: It's exactly and like it just is hard. But I

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Speaker 3: now can't buy things without seeing the beaches of Ghana,

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Speaker 3: where like all the kind of western mess and over

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Speaker 3: consumption ends up in landfill. Like that just kind of

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Speaker 3: makes me sick. But at the same time, I can

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Speaker 3: appreciate that for people who were more organized, these kind

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Speaker 3: of sales actually are really helpful. How about your man?

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Speaker 1: But they also make us feel bad. Like I saw

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Speaker 1: an actual example of an Australian brand sending an email

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Speaker 1: out this week that said that they were having their

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Speaker 1: Black Friday sale two weeks early. It was on a

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Speaker 1: particular day this week. It started at seven am and

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Speaker 1: it was thirty percent off sightwide from seven to seven

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Speaker 1: thirty am.

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Speaker 3: Now that is just ridiculous, and that's you know, it

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Speaker 3: is encouraging me to rush and make an impulse, urgent decision,

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Speaker 3: which is when we waste as well.

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Speaker 1: And that's why I guess I hadn't thought about this before,

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Speaker 1: but that's probably why your stat that so many of

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Speaker 1: these Black Friday purchases end up in landfill. That's why,

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Speaker 1: because we're making them under these incredibly stressful conditions. But

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Speaker 1: I want to be clear that my issue here is

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Speaker 1: not with the people who take advantage of them. These

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Speaker 1: people are amazing people. They are better than everyone at

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Speaker 1: this table, and it's because they're just more organized than us.

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Speaker 1: And it got me thinking about how there really are

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Speaker 1: two types of people in this world. There are the

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Speaker 1: people who refuse to pay full price for things, and

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Speaker 1: there are the people who know no other way. And

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Speaker 1: I think I'm very much in that camp as thinking

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Speaker 1: that there's all these sorts of hallmarks of how you

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Speaker 1: know if you're the person in that first camp, how

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Speaker 1: you know that you're a super organized person. And the

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Speaker 1: first one that came to mind, and we were talking

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Speaker 1: about this before, was this that person always has a

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Speaker 1: cupboard in their house full of presents that they had

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Speaker 1: just accumulated throughout the year. They're not going on a

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Speaker 1: scramble before a birthday party. They've got some lovely candles

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Speaker 1: to give us hostesk gifts.

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Speaker 3: Yep, they've got some arm oil, they have blank cards,

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Speaker 3: they don't have to rush to bully.

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Speaker 1: And stamps for them too, because they still send thank

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Speaker 1: you cards by mail.

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Speaker 2: That is so.

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Speaker 1: Here are some other signs, would you like to hear them?

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Speaker 1: Some other signs that you're the sort of person who

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Speaker 1: uses the Black Friday sales for good. You wash your

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Speaker 1: bras regularly and with a bougie detergent on Sundays.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and you have one of those special bags, you know,

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Speaker 3: those ones that you put fancy lingerie.

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Speaker 1: And when was the last time I washed my bra

389
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Speaker 1: don't come too close. You have a shared family notes

390
00:18:37,994 --> 00:18:40,474
Speaker 1: at doc where you list errands and then check them

391
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Speaker 1: off on them, as opposed to waking up in the

392
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Speaker 1: middle of the night realizing that you never signed up

393
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Speaker 1: for that thing that you were meant to sign up for.

394
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Speaker 1: Here's one. You never eat in your car.

395
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Speaker 2: Most of my meals and.

396
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Speaker 3: They're on my steering wheel.

397
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Speaker 1: Oh my god. You are never without your keep cup.

398
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Speaker 1: Now I work with you both. I know that I used.

399
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Speaker 2: To have a keep cup, but I lost the lid.

400
00:19:03,634 --> 00:19:05,394
Speaker 2: And then it's like that, and I bet that this

401
00:19:05,434 --> 00:19:06,674
Speaker 2: person never loses the lid.

402
00:19:07,194 --> 00:19:09,074
Speaker 3: You kept getting shamed because you were handing them a

403
00:19:09,114 --> 00:19:10,273
Speaker 3: dirty It's true.

404
00:19:10,514 --> 00:19:12,634
Speaker 1: I got two more quickly. You own a shoe tree.

405
00:19:13,434 --> 00:19:13,793
Speaker 2: Yes.

406
00:19:13,994 --> 00:19:16,553
Speaker 1: And finally, your toilet rues bag is the kind that

407
00:19:16,594 --> 00:19:19,754
Speaker 1: you hang on a hook over the door and unfolds

408
00:19:19,994 --> 00:19:22,514
Speaker 1: so you see everything in it, as opposed to having

409
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Speaker 1: that freebie that you got a department store in two

410
00:19:24,354 --> 00:19:24,954
Speaker 1: thousand and night.

411
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Speaker 3: That's so true, rather than going to a hotel and

412
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Speaker 3: for some reason everything is on the floor.

413
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Speaker 1: Look, we salute you people who do these things, and

414
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Speaker 1: we wish you the best of like navigating the Black

415
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Speaker 1: Friday sales.

416
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Speaker 3: But the three of us I feel December two, we're

417
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Speaker 3: going to go. It's time to really take advantage of

418
00:19:40,514 --> 00:19:42,834
Speaker 3: those sales and it's going to be like guys, every

419
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Speaker 3: sale they can't.

420
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Speaker 2: Take the festive stress of shopping on December third. Christmas

421
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Speaker 2: is one of my things I've done all my life.

422
00:19:54,274 --> 00:19:58,794
Speaker 2: And the heart rate, the caffeine intake, the swearing, the

423
00:19:58,834 --> 00:20:00,874
Speaker 2: car park range, like you can't take.

424
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Speaker 3: That Christmas and the debt.

425
00:20:04,714 --> 00:20:07,793
Speaker 2: After the break. What's a grief vampire? Is there a

426
00:20:07,874 --> 00:20:16,874
Speaker 2: chance that they're actually doing good? Doesn't sound likely if

427
00:20:16,914 --> 00:20:20,234
Speaker 2: you haven't noticed Princess Ann on tour because Oasis had

428
00:20:20,274 --> 00:20:21,114
Speaker 2: better bucket hats.

429
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Speaker 3: Let's be honest, did you see the headline that Oasis

430
00:20:25,274 --> 00:20:28,954
Speaker 3: stayed at Sam Wood's holiday house. Oh yes, I did

431
00:20:29,034 --> 00:20:32,033
Speaker 3: on the morning simple then I really enjoyed that.

432
00:20:32,074 --> 00:20:36,834
Speaker 2: And he said the recycling bins were full. I'm like,

433
00:20:37,034 --> 00:20:38,154
Speaker 2: I am not surprised.

434
00:20:38,154 --> 00:20:39,554
Speaker 3: Why have I retained that information?

435
00:20:39,754 --> 00:20:42,994
Speaker 2: Bless them? Anyway, if you haven't noticed the Princess ends

436
00:20:42,994 --> 00:20:46,273
Speaker 2: on tour, you might not know that there's also another

437
00:20:46,274 --> 00:20:48,714
Speaker 2: tour going on that's attracting lots of eye rolls and

438
00:20:48,794 --> 00:20:54,074
Speaker 2: big crowds. Probably the world's most famous medium one, John Edward,

439
00:20:54,314 --> 00:20:57,834
Speaker 2: is in Australia at the moment. He's doing thirteen shows

440
00:20:57,874 --> 00:21:00,074
Speaker 2: in most capital cities over the next few weeks, and

441
00:21:00,154 --> 00:21:02,354
Speaker 2: lots of the events have sold out. Now, Jesse, I

442
00:21:02,394 --> 00:21:04,474
Speaker 2: know you have been to a John Edwood show before.

443
00:21:05,194 --> 00:21:06,674
Speaker 2: What happens there? What's it like?

444
00:21:07,194 --> 00:21:11,154
Speaker 3: I went to one in twenty nineteen at the State Theater.

445
00:21:11,314 --> 00:21:12,954
Speaker 3: Why do you go for a work thing?

446
00:21:13,114 --> 00:21:13,234
Speaker 1: Like?

447
00:21:13,274 --> 00:21:16,313
Speaker 3: We got work passes Claire and I for story and

448
00:21:16,354 --> 00:21:18,154
Speaker 3: we went, this is going to be really interesting, let's

449
00:21:18,154 --> 00:21:21,354
Speaker 3: recap it. So State Theater I think has two thousand seats.

450
00:21:21,394 --> 00:21:25,553
Speaker 3: There's a lot of people there and we were skeptical,

451
00:21:25,594 --> 00:21:28,434
Speaker 3: cynical all of the things, and the first half of

452
00:21:28,474 --> 00:21:31,513
Speaker 3: it proved that cynicism to be fair. So it was like,

453
00:21:32,514 --> 00:21:36,674
Speaker 3: over here, I'm getting a chipped bone? Is there a

454
00:21:36,754 --> 00:21:40,033
Speaker 3: chipped bone? I'm getting the letter in that was just

455
00:21:40,114 --> 00:21:43,354
Speaker 3: you I'm getting. Yeah, it was a prophecy. It was

456
00:21:43,394 --> 00:21:46,594
Speaker 3: a prophecy there a few years early. But and then

457
00:21:46,634 --> 00:21:50,513
Speaker 3: would hone in on someone and almost get a bit irritated, like,

458
00:21:50,754 --> 00:21:53,314
Speaker 3: come on, do you know someone who died after surgery

459
00:21:53,674 --> 00:21:55,354
Speaker 3: or something? And it's like most of us would know

460
00:21:55,434 --> 00:21:58,314
Speaker 3: someone who died after anyway, also chipped bone.

461
00:21:58,474 --> 00:21:59,594
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a.

462
00:21:59,554 --> 00:22:01,714
Speaker 3: Really weirdly specific thing. And then there was like this

463
00:22:01,794 --> 00:22:04,234
Speaker 3: irritation and we were going, oh, this is feeling a

464
00:22:04,234 --> 00:22:06,554
Speaker 3: bit awkward. And then it was like the seventh month

465
00:22:06,634 --> 00:22:09,074
Speaker 3: or the seventh of a month mean anything to you.

466
00:22:09,354 --> 00:22:12,354
Speaker 3: And then you start going statistically, come on, it's.

467
00:22:12,274 --> 00:22:13,754
Speaker 1: Five days before quick frenzy.

468
00:22:13,874 --> 00:22:18,554
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right, exactly. So it got to that and

469
00:22:18,754 --> 00:22:21,074
Speaker 3: Claire and I went, you know, you could fill the

470
00:22:21,154 --> 00:22:24,313
Speaker 3: room getting a bit lost. The second half had me

471
00:22:24,554 --> 00:22:28,514
Speaker 3: utterly convinced. Oh wow, he absolutely He went to this

472
00:22:29,354 --> 00:22:32,794
Speaker 3: really specific woman and said the Vatican. You went to

473
00:22:32,834 --> 00:22:36,593
Speaker 3: the Vatican. Your father said he heard your prayer and

474
00:22:36,634 --> 00:22:38,434
Speaker 3: I was like, come on, how the hell would and

475
00:22:38,594 --> 00:22:41,074
Speaker 3: this woman just burst out to tears and went, I

476
00:22:41,114 --> 00:22:42,954
Speaker 3: said a prayer and then and then he said, and

477
00:22:43,114 --> 00:22:46,594
Speaker 3: his slippers. You found his slippers, and she had found

478
00:22:46,594 --> 00:22:48,794
Speaker 3: his slippers that morning. And then he said, there's an

479
00:22:48,954 --> 00:22:51,434
Speaker 3: Eric who has a wedding ring. You need to get

480
00:22:51,434 --> 00:22:53,994
Speaker 3: that wedding ring back. And Eric hard the ex fiancee,

481
00:22:54,114 --> 00:22:58,114
Speaker 3: still had the wedding ring, like really specific stuff. He

482
00:22:58,114 --> 00:22:59,914
Speaker 3: got to another woman and said, you're putting off a

483
00:22:59,954 --> 00:23:02,754
Speaker 3: doctor's appointment about your lungs. Why are you doing that?

484
00:23:02,834 --> 00:23:04,594
Speaker 3: You need to go. They're going to give you steroids.

485
00:23:04,954 --> 00:23:07,874
Speaker 3: And that was spot on. So look, do I know

486
00:23:08,434 --> 00:23:13,073
Speaker 3: whether there was some way he had plants in the

487
00:23:13,114 --> 00:23:15,634
Speaker 3: auditorium to kind of get some of that information. I don't.

488
00:23:15,994 --> 00:23:19,234
Speaker 3: But what I did know is that that room walked

489
00:23:19,274 --> 00:23:24,434
Speaker 3: away feeling like they had got something. It was incredibly

490
00:23:24,554 --> 00:23:28,114
Speaker 3: entertaining and for the people who came there bearing their grief,

491
00:23:28,754 --> 00:23:31,154
Speaker 3: there was some resolution for them. That's how I felt.

492
00:23:31,394 --> 00:23:35,154
Speaker 2: Well, not everybody is so stoked about Edward's shows. Right

493
00:23:35,914 --> 00:23:38,754
Speaker 2: in the Sydney Morning, Harold on the Weekend Peter Fitzimon's

494
00:23:38,914 --> 00:23:42,674
Speaker 2: interviewed a woman called Susan Gerbick in an article called

495
00:23:42,954 --> 00:23:46,594
Speaker 2: calling out the Grief Vampires. How John Edward and other

496
00:23:46,674 --> 00:23:51,194
Speaker 2: psychic mediums apply their a moral trade. Gerbik is described

497
00:23:51,234 --> 00:23:53,994
Speaker 2: as a leading American skeptic. Right, and she makes it

498
00:23:54,034 --> 00:23:57,593
Speaker 2: her business to go Your mom and me are out

499
00:23:57,674 --> 00:24:01,714
Speaker 2: loud to leading American skeptic. She makes it her business

500
00:24:01,714 --> 00:24:05,194
Speaker 2: to go around like unmasking people that she considers are

501
00:24:05,274 --> 00:24:08,994
Speaker 2: exploiting the grieving, milking their misery for money. She doesn't

502
00:24:08,994 --> 00:24:10,793
Speaker 2: mince her words about how she feels about them. This

503
00:24:10,874 --> 00:24:14,834
Speaker 2: is one of the quotes. They have no conscience, they're sociopaths.

504
00:24:15,114 --> 00:24:18,073
Speaker 2: They just don't care. They're just looking for grief. They

505
00:24:18,114 --> 00:24:21,634
Speaker 2: can capitalize on by doing tricks that convince paying customers.

506
00:24:21,954 --> 00:24:26,074
Speaker 2: They really are talking to the spirit world. So she

507
00:24:26,274 --> 00:24:29,674
Speaker 2: says that she has exposed certain psychics, and not necessarily

508
00:24:29,714 --> 00:24:32,154
Speaker 2: John Edward for legal reasons. Let's get it out there,

509
00:24:32,194 --> 00:24:33,994
Speaker 2: because he's a medium. He can hear me. He knows

510
00:24:33,994 --> 00:24:37,793
Speaker 2: I'm talking about him, not necessarily Edward. But she says

511
00:24:38,194 --> 00:24:42,274
Speaker 2: that she has unmasked mediums and psychics doing these things

512
00:24:42,314 --> 00:24:45,514
Speaker 2: called cold reads and hot reads. Right, and she says

513
00:24:45,514 --> 00:24:48,674
Speaker 2: a cold read is which something that we might expect

514
00:24:48,674 --> 00:24:50,634
Speaker 2: if you were doing like a one on one, she says,

515
00:24:50,674 --> 00:24:52,994
Speaker 2: You assess someone on how they look, how they sound,

516
00:24:53,074 --> 00:24:56,114
Speaker 2: and what they say. You make observations and assumptions about them,

517
00:24:56,114 --> 00:24:58,154
Speaker 2: and then you throw out baked so a bit like

518
00:24:58,554 --> 00:25:01,793
Speaker 2: exactly what you were saying, so like someone beginning with

519
00:25:01,914 --> 00:25:05,513
Speaker 2: them the seventh chipped bone, Yeah, that kind of stuff,

520
00:25:05,834 --> 00:25:07,714
Speaker 2: and then you begin to reel the me because in

521
00:25:07,834 --> 00:25:10,154
Speaker 2: the big audience you see who reacts to that, and

522
00:25:10,194 --> 00:25:13,074
Speaker 2: then you go okay, and then you drill in on there,

523
00:25:13,114 --> 00:25:15,313
Speaker 2: and if you know the right questions to ask, you

524
00:25:15,354 --> 00:25:17,794
Speaker 2: can probably draw out a bit of a story, she says.

525
00:25:17,794 --> 00:25:20,754
Speaker 2: That's generally in the business called a cold read. A

526
00:25:20,754 --> 00:25:23,114
Speaker 2: hot read, she says, which happens less often and is

527
00:25:23,114 --> 00:25:25,794
Speaker 2: obviously more deceitful. She says that you and your staff

528
00:25:26,074 --> 00:25:28,154
Speaker 2: would go through the names of people who are coming

529
00:25:28,194 --> 00:25:31,754
Speaker 2: to a certain audience and go and literally research them.

530
00:25:31,834 --> 00:25:34,273
Speaker 1: And also she's spoken in the past about what she

531
00:25:34,434 --> 00:25:38,714
Speaker 1: believes is the practice of these famous mediums, which is

532
00:25:38,754 --> 00:25:42,154
Speaker 1: that they do plant people in the lobby before the

533
00:25:42,234 --> 00:25:46,354
Speaker 1: show or at halftime at the show. And the example

534
00:25:46,354 --> 00:25:49,914
Speaker 1: here would be perhaps the reason why he knew to

535
00:25:49,954 --> 00:25:51,914
Speaker 1: say to that woman she needs to go to the

536
00:25:51,954 --> 00:25:55,994
Speaker 1: doctor for her lungs. Is maybe she was smoking outside

537
00:25:55,994 --> 00:25:59,033
Speaker 1: before the show? Ah, maybe maybe.

538
00:25:59,034 --> 00:26:02,513
Speaker 2: And she says when she's done stings to expose people,

539
00:26:02,754 --> 00:26:06,354
Speaker 2: she's planted stories. So like herself, she's planted stories and

540
00:26:06,354 --> 00:26:08,234
Speaker 2: then see if they can come up through the psychic

541
00:26:08,354 --> 00:26:11,354
Speaker 2: and they have. So she says that that happens a lot.

542
00:26:12,114 --> 00:26:14,394
Speaker 2: One of the things that's interesting about this, of course,

543
00:26:14,434 --> 00:26:16,434
Speaker 2: is that so this article was very much like these

544
00:26:16,434 --> 00:26:18,874
Speaker 2: are the worst people in the world. I mean, I'm exaggerating.

545
00:26:18,994 --> 00:26:20,874
Speaker 3: She used the word sociopath.

546
00:26:20,354 --> 00:26:23,434
Speaker 2: She did, And there's lots of talk of them being exploitative.

547
00:26:23,754 --> 00:26:27,074
Speaker 2: And she also just says to the argument that would

548
00:26:27,074 --> 00:26:28,914
Speaker 2: come back that it was like, does it really matter

549
00:26:28,994 --> 00:26:31,594
Speaker 2: if it's true or not? If it's comforting, she'd say, well,

550
00:26:31,634 --> 00:26:34,394
Speaker 2: this is basically the question, is it okay to lie

551
00:26:34,514 --> 00:26:37,194
Speaker 2: to make money out of people? What do we think

552
00:26:37,274 --> 00:26:39,954
Speaker 2: about this? I know that Amelia, when we did our

553
00:26:40,034 --> 00:26:43,794
Speaker 2: tarot session a while ago, you were the most skeptical

554
00:26:43,834 --> 00:26:47,954
Speaker 2: amongst us about the whole process. It made you quite uncomfortable.

555
00:26:47,994 --> 00:26:50,513
Speaker 2: Do you share that feeling with these guys?

556
00:26:50,634 --> 00:26:54,033
Speaker 1: No, you know, I actually wasn't skeptical. I would characterize

557
00:26:54,074 --> 00:26:56,474
Speaker 1: you as skeptical of the process. I was scared of

558
00:26:56,514 --> 00:26:57,954
Speaker 1: the process.

559
00:26:57,394 --> 00:26:58,154
Speaker 2: Right, That's true.

560
00:26:58,194 --> 00:27:01,674
Speaker 1: And what that meant was I don't actually identify myself

561
00:27:01,674 --> 00:27:04,234
Speaker 1: as a skeptic on this stuff because I just don't know.

562
00:27:04,794 --> 00:27:07,754
Speaker 1: But what it does make me feel is scared. And

563
00:27:07,794 --> 00:27:10,954
Speaker 1: the reason is with the terror was because I felt

564
00:27:10,954 --> 00:27:14,714
Speaker 1: like people often describe a terror reading as like seeing

565
00:27:14,714 --> 00:27:17,874
Speaker 1: a therapist, and my response to that is always like, well,

566
00:27:17,874 --> 00:27:20,354
Speaker 1: I'd prefer to see a therapist because I don't want

567
00:27:20,394 --> 00:27:25,074
Speaker 1: people who don't necessarily bring any expertise rifling through my brain,

568
00:27:25,194 --> 00:27:27,754
Speaker 1: planting stuff there that could psych me out, or that

569
00:27:27,834 --> 00:27:30,234
Speaker 1: could send me down a path that may or may

570
00:27:30,274 --> 00:27:33,274
Speaker 1: not have any bearing on what ends up happening. That's

571
00:27:33,274 --> 00:27:34,674
Speaker 1: why I feel scared about it.

572
00:27:36,314 --> 00:27:37,834
Speaker 2: How do you feel about these guys?

573
00:27:38,314 --> 00:27:40,514
Speaker 1: Well, I didn't know a lot about this guy. Interestingly,

574
00:27:40,554 --> 00:27:43,273
Speaker 1: when I was researching John Edward, I discovered that he

575
00:27:43,474 --> 00:27:46,313
Speaker 1: is unusually popular in Australia. You know how there are

576
00:27:46,354 --> 00:27:50,994
Speaker 1: certain celebrities like Pink psych. He's the Pink of the

577
00:27:50,994 --> 00:27:54,194
Speaker 1: psychic world. He comes to Australia more than any other country.

578
00:27:54,634 --> 00:27:58,114
Speaker 1: And I came across this very telling little incident that

579
00:27:58,274 --> 00:28:01,994
Speaker 1: happened on the project when he was here last in June,

580
00:28:02,114 --> 00:28:04,273
Speaker 1: and I want to play it for you because I

581
00:28:04,314 --> 00:28:06,474
Speaker 1: think it reveals a lot about how he works.

582
00:28:06,514 --> 00:28:08,754
Speaker 2: Let's have a less then, are you feeling anything from

583
00:28:09,194 --> 00:28:10,594
Speaker 2: anyone at the desk right now?

584
00:28:11,154 --> 00:28:11,874
Speaker 1: Not at the moment.

585
00:28:12,514 --> 00:28:18,234
Speaker 2: Not at the moment, I mean I could have done that. Yeah,

586
00:28:18,794 --> 00:28:21,394
Speaker 2: as we continue to ask questions things just I'll tell

587
00:28:21,394 --> 00:28:22,273
Speaker 2: you why, Because.

588
00:28:21,994 --> 00:28:23,834
Speaker 1: If I wind up reading for a host of a

589
00:28:23,874 --> 00:28:25,954
Speaker 1: show and I get something that's private and personal, that

590
00:28:26,274 --> 00:28:29,354
Speaker 1: is not this is not taped, it's live, and it's

591
00:28:29,394 --> 00:28:32,754
Speaker 1: not something that somebody wants to discuss publicly. Yeah, you're

592
00:28:32,754 --> 00:28:35,914
Speaker 1: going to say no. So I've had that experience.

593
00:28:36,834 --> 00:28:38,994
Speaker 2: Yeah on radio you can't handle the truth.

594
00:28:39,074 --> 00:28:41,274
Speaker 1: Yeah. But it's a little bit convenient, isn't it that

595
00:28:41,314 --> 00:28:44,154
Speaker 1: the one place where he won't do a read is

596
00:28:44,194 --> 00:28:47,274
Speaker 1: on live television with journalists who might push back. Jesse.

597
00:28:47,914 --> 00:28:50,474
Speaker 3: Yeah, I totally see your point. And the cold read

598
00:28:50,514 --> 00:28:53,794
Speaker 3: hot read thing I think is really interesting and I

599
00:28:53,874 --> 00:28:57,194
Speaker 3: always think the world needs both. And I really respected

600
00:28:57,234 --> 00:29:00,994
Speaker 3: the position of fit Simon's and the expert who's dedicated

601
00:29:00,994 --> 00:29:03,554
Speaker 3: our life to going can we please have some rigor

602
00:29:03,594 --> 00:29:06,114
Speaker 3: and research involved in this stuff before we hand over

603
00:29:06,154 --> 00:29:11,554
Speaker 3: our money. However, when something offers a balm for someone's grief,

604
00:29:12,474 --> 00:29:15,074
Speaker 3: and if John Edward and he has said this, my

605
00:29:15,834 --> 00:29:19,674
Speaker 3: job is to make people leave feeling better, it's basically

606
00:29:19,914 --> 00:29:22,434
Speaker 3: do no harm. I don't want to do harm for people.

607
00:29:23,154 --> 00:29:25,834
Speaker 3: And in that article they talked about lies. And I

608
00:29:25,874 --> 00:29:28,594
Speaker 3: find the use of the word lie really interesting because

609
00:29:29,074 --> 00:29:32,314
Speaker 3: do I think John Edward believes what he's doing. I

610
00:29:32,434 --> 00:29:35,714
Speaker 3: don't know. I don't know, but I'm not completely convinced

611
00:29:36,354 --> 00:29:39,354
Speaker 3: that he is a fraud star or a con man

612
00:29:39,434 --> 00:29:44,434
Speaker 3: who gets up and intentionally manipulates people. When I've listened

613
00:29:44,434 --> 00:29:47,714
Speaker 3: to interviews with him, I think he believes what he

614
00:29:47,914 --> 00:29:51,394
Speaker 3: is doing. And there are a lot of things in

615
00:29:51,434 --> 00:29:54,994
Speaker 3: some instances, for example, fertility, I know people who claim

616
00:29:54,994 --> 00:29:58,834
Speaker 3: to be fertility experts that have no expertise, no degrees,

617
00:29:58,994 --> 00:30:03,154
Speaker 3: no research that triggers me like I find it so

618
00:30:03,234 --> 00:30:06,954
Speaker 3: irresponsible and so harmful, and they're giving people advice and whatever.

619
00:30:07,914 --> 00:30:10,554
Speaker 3: But then you know the practice like cupping, where they

620
00:30:10,554 --> 00:30:12,594
Speaker 3: put comes on your back and they did it. A

621
00:30:12,674 --> 00:30:14,914
Speaker 3: research is out on whether or not that's good. I've

622
00:30:14,954 --> 00:30:18,034
Speaker 3: got cupping. I've walked away feeling better acupuncture. Yeah, lots

623
00:30:18,034 --> 00:30:20,794
Speaker 3: of question marks around whether that actually I walk away

624
00:30:20,874 --> 00:30:24,634
Speaker 3: place ebo, eh, I walk away feeling better with this stuff.

625
00:30:25,234 --> 00:30:29,474
Speaker 3: I think grief and death and the afterlife is just

626
00:30:29,514 --> 00:30:34,274
Speaker 3: this massive well of like what balm do people have?

627
00:30:34,394 --> 00:30:38,354
Speaker 3: And if this has them leaving feeling better, I kind

628
00:30:38,394 --> 00:30:39,514
Speaker 3: of think there's space for that.

629
00:30:40,714 --> 00:30:43,154
Speaker 2: Look, I want to agree with you. I've spoken on

630
00:30:43,194 --> 00:30:47,194
Speaker 2: the show before about how Imbrent's family, my partner's family,

631
00:30:47,234 --> 00:30:50,434
Speaker 2: there are psychics, and that my late mother in law

632
00:30:50,714 --> 00:30:54,514
Speaker 2: was a self proclaimed psychic, and I know people who

633
00:30:54,554 --> 00:30:57,274
Speaker 2: she brought so much comfort to with her readings. Now

634
00:30:57,314 --> 00:30:59,914
Speaker 2: I am a skeptic, like I'm born a skeptic, right,

635
00:31:00,434 --> 00:31:02,794
Speaker 2: It's also an area that kind of frightens me, so

636
00:31:02,874 --> 00:31:04,914
Speaker 2: I don't want to go near it. Some people run

637
00:31:04,954 --> 00:31:07,434
Speaker 2: towards that stuff. I'm very much backing out of the

638
00:31:07,474 --> 00:31:09,234
Speaker 2: room going you guys carry on?

639
00:31:09,394 --> 00:31:11,994
Speaker 1: Is that for the same reason that I identify being

640
00:31:12,034 --> 00:31:12,474
Speaker 1: scared of.

641
00:31:12,394 --> 00:31:16,874
Speaker 2: Me plea and I just find it really unnerving. I

642
00:31:16,914 --> 00:31:19,554
Speaker 2: am quite romantic and magical in some way, Like It's

643
00:31:19,594 --> 00:31:22,554
Speaker 2: not that I'm very scientific, fact based in every way,

644
00:31:22,594 --> 00:31:25,794
Speaker 2: but I do find this challenging, and so I probably

645
00:31:25,834 --> 00:31:28,634
Speaker 2: back away from it. But when I began to get

646
00:31:28,714 --> 00:31:31,554
Speaker 2: to know people who lived in this world, basically I

647
00:31:31,634 --> 00:31:35,394
Speaker 2: did really have to reassess my view because I couldn't

648
00:31:35,434 --> 00:31:37,234
Speaker 2: sit there and point at my mother in law, who

649
00:31:37,234 --> 00:31:41,074
Speaker 2: I adored and say you're a liar, like you're you're

650
00:31:41,114 --> 00:31:43,914
Speaker 2: a liar and you're a fraud. On the other hand,

651
00:31:43,994 --> 00:31:49,394
Speaker 2: she was not filling massive theaters and charging large amounts

652
00:31:49,434 --> 00:31:51,674
Speaker 2: of money. You know, she would do a reading for

653
00:31:51,714 --> 00:31:54,034
Speaker 2: someone for free, for a bottle of wine for like,

654
00:31:54,194 --> 00:31:57,994
Speaker 2: you know, she would do it almost as a neighborhood service,

655
00:31:58,034 --> 00:32:00,714
Speaker 2: and whatever the truth of the situation was, very many

656
00:32:00,714 --> 00:32:04,594
Speaker 2: people felt good about what she did. And so, like

657
00:32:04,674 --> 00:32:06,954
Speaker 2: lots of things, I'm not sure how black and white

658
00:32:06,994 --> 00:32:09,154
Speaker 2: it is. When I was doing a bit of digging

659
00:32:09,154 --> 00:32:12,434
Speaker 2: into how many people actually believe this is really interesting

660
00:32:12,474 --> 00:32:15,554
Speaker 2: stat This is an American stat about how many people

661
00:32:15,754 --> 00:32:19,154
Speaker 2: proclaim that they believe in ghosts and the afterlife, and

662
00:32:19,194 --> 00:32:21,754
Speaker 2: it usually sits somewhere around thirty nine to forty one

663
00:32:21,794 --> 00:32:25,034
Speaker 2: percent of people who were like open to that. But

664
00:32:25,234 --> 00:32:28,714
Speaker 2: fifty three percent of Americans say that they've been visited

665
00:32:28,754 --> 00:32:32,314
Speaker 2: by a dead family member. So isn't that weird that

666
00:32:32,394 --> 00:32:36,914
Speaker 2: people actually say they've had lived experience of having contact

667
00:32:36,954 --> 00:32:40,874
Speaker 2: with people they've lost, even if they don't really believe

668
00:32:40,954 --> 00:32:45,274
Speaker 2: it themselves, Because I think that we've all had those

669
00:32:45,354 --> 00:32:49,354
Speaker 2: experiences where, you know, I remember, not long after Julie passed,

670
00:32:49,354 --> 00:32:52,074
Speaker 2: my mother in law, something that she gave me fell

671
00:32:52,114 --> 00:32:53,914
Speaker 2: out of a cupboard onto my head, and I was

672
00:32:54,074 --> 00:32:56,274
Speaker 2: really freaked out because I was thinking about her at

673
00:32:56,274 --> 00:32:58,314
Speaker 2: that moment. I was like, it's a sign, It's a sign,

674
00:32:58,514 --> 00:33:00,714
Speaker 2: you know, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't like, but

675
00:33:01,274 --> 00:33:04,794
Speaker 2: I think that it's interesting that we can feel things

676
00:33:04,834 --> 00:33:07,714
Speaker 2: sometimes that we don't actually believe in. And I think

677
00:33:07,754 --> 00:33:10,594
Speaker 2: a lot of this stuff lives in that area.

678
00:33:10,674 --> 00:33:13,714
Speaker 3: And this is an imperfect comparison. And I don't want

679
00:33:13,714 --> 00:33:16,914
Speaker 3: to offend anyone, but I know people who I'm close

680
00:33:16,954 --> 00:33:21,234
Speaker 3: to who donate significant amounts of money to different churches

681
00:33:21,674 --> 00:33:23,914
Speaker 3: or not even church, different faiths, the faith that they're

682
00:33:23,914 --> 00:33:28,274
Speaker 3: aligned with. I don't necessarily believe in the god that

683
00:33:28,274 --> 00:33:32,754
Speaker 3: they're aligned with. I don't necessarily believe the exact things

684
00:33:32,754 --> 00:33:34,434
Speaker 3: that they believe. Do I think they have the right

685
00:33:34,994 --> 00:33:40,714
Speaker 3: and do I respect their affiliation with that institution. I

686
00:33:40,754 --> 00:33:43,914
Speaker 3: do and if that makes them feel better, and if

687
00:33:43,954 --> 00:33:47,914
Speaker 3: particular stories and maybe I get a little bit funny

688
00:33:47,954 --> 00:33:52,634
Speaker 3: about any sort of patronizing of any set of beliefs

689
00:33:52,674 --> 00:33:59,114
Speaker 3: that you feel are stupid or can't be proven. I

690
00:33:59,194 --> 00:34:01,914
Speaker 3: have a lot of space for people who kind of

691
00:34:02,154 --> 00:34:03,714
Speaker 3: explore those things and find comfort.

692
00:34:03,914 --> 00:34:06,354
Speaker 1: Yeah. I thought it was a really interesting point you made,

693
00:34:06,394 --> 00:34:11,674
Speaker 1: Jersey about what John Edward himself believes. And it's interesting

694
00:34:11,714 --> 00:34:15,873
Speaker 1: that he insists on describing himself as an entertainer, and

695
00:34:15,914 --> 00:34:18,754
Speaker 1: that is indisputable. He is an entertainer.

696
00:34:19,074 --> 00:34:22,433
Speaker 2: Yeah right, And yeah, his show is listed under art

697
00:34:22,514 --> 00:34:25,914
Speaker 2: theater and comedy. Yeah, so it's a performance.

698
00:34:25,274 --> 00:34:27,554
Speaker 3: That's what when we went our first instinct was this

699
00:34:27,594 --> 00:34:30,873
Speaker 3: feels like a comedy show, except without jokes, but more

700
00:34:30,914 --> 00:34:31,434
Speaker 3: dead people.

701
00:34:31,514 --> 00:34:33,994
Speaker 1: But then it does raise the question of stakes, Like

702
00:34:34,114 --> 00:34:37,554
Speaker 1: if he is an entertainer, then we come back to

703
00:34:37,594 --> 00:34:40,754
Speaker 1: that fundamental question of why does it matter? And this

704
00:34:40,834 --> 00:34:43,194
Speaker 1: interview that we kicked off the segment talking about with

705
00:34:43,274 --> 00:34:47,473
Speaker 1: the sort of renowned leading American skeptic, you end up

706
00:34:47,514 --> 00:34:50,474
Speaker 1: feeling a little bit like she's a bit too invested

707
00:34:50,554 --> 00:34:51,194
Speaker 1: in this thing.

708
00:34:51,594 --> 00:34:52,354
Speaker 2: You know, why is she?

709
00:34:52,554 --> 00:34:55,754
Speaker 3: So she's kind of just as dogmatic as he is.

710
00:34:57,594 --> 00:35:00,794
Speaker 3: I want to ask you, Holly, if this is real,

711
00:35:01,194 --> 00:35:04,314
Speaker 3: because is this ghost again? No, it is not ghosts,

712
00:35:04,314 --> 00:35:06,674
Speaker 3: but it's similar. It's when Brits moved to Australia. Oh,

713
00:35:07,154 --> 00:35:11,354
Speaker 3: it's this phenomenon called the Australia Effect. Right the other

714
00:35:11,394 --> 00:35:12,754
Speaker 3: day I came across it and I was like, well,

715
00:35:12,794 --> 00:35:14,714
Speaker 3: I sit in a podcast studio with a lady with

716
00:35:14,754 --> 00:35:16,873
Speaker 3: a British accent. That's you, Holly, A lady with an

717
00:35:16,914 --> 00:35:19,354
Speaker 3: American accent. That's your Amelia. And I thought, if anyone

718
00:35:19,354 --> 00:35:21,234
Speaker 3: can tell me about the Australia Effect, it's you. Two

719
00:35:21,914 --> 00:35:24,994
Speaker 3: came across this TikTok video of a woman explaining what

720
00:35:25,034 --> 00:35:27,154
Speaker 3: the Australia effect is. Here's what she said.

721
00:35:27,274 --> 00:35:29,954
Speaker 1: Has anyone seen the TikTok trends called the Australia Effect.

722
00:35:30,554 --> 00:35:32,914
Speaker 2: So essentially, it's like British girls will.

723
00:35:32,794 --> 00:35:33,834
Speaker 1: Go over to Australia.

724
00:35:33,954 --> 00:35:37,074
Speaker 2: Before they left, you know, they got full face makeup, massive.

725
00:35:36,794 --> 00:35:39,393
Speaker 1: Lip filler, big eyelashes, you know, the hair extensions, etc.

726
00:35:40,034 --> 00:35:41,714
Speaker 1: Then they moved to Australia. After a bit of time,

727
00:35:41,754 --> 00:35:43,634
Speaker 1: they're they're just like all natural, bare face.

728
00:35:43,714 --> 00:35:45,994
Speaker 2: They're never really weird makeup. Maybe they've taken their extensions out,

729
00:35:45,994 --> 00:35:47,274
Speaker 2: they haven't got lip filler, etc.

730
00:35:48,514 --> 00:35:50,994
Speaker 3: So her name is Nina and she's moved to Wales,

731
00:35:51,034 --> 00:35:54,834
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure. But her theory is that when people

732
00:35:54,874 --> 00:35:58,274
Speaker 3: from overseas moved to Australia, they almost have a glowdown.

733
00:35:58,634 --> 00:36:01,594
Speaker 3: They become more laid back, they stopped doing their hair,

734
00:36:01,754 --> 00:36:05,554
Speaker 3: they stopped trying so hard. Holly, when you moved to Australia,

735
00:36:05,594 --> 00:36:07,474
Speaker 3: did you fall victim to the Australia effect?

736
00:36:08,274 --> 00:36:10,354
Speaker 2: Look, it was a long time ago and lip filler

737
00:36:10,394 --> 00:36:14,593
Speaker 2: and hair extensions weren't really the vibe. But absolutely one

738
00:36:14,674 --> 00:36:18,554
Speaker 2: hundred percent. Yes, this is absolutely one hundred percent, I

739
00:36:18,634 --> 00:36:22,194
Speaker 2: think really, and this is just about assimilation to the

740
00:36:22,234 --> 00:36:24,194
Speaker 2: beauty standards of the place you're living in.

741
00:36:24,274 --> 00:36:24,473
Speaker 1: Right.

742
00:36:24,554 --> 00:36:29,594
Speaker 2: So there is a very classic, often mocked British mainstream

743
00:36:29,754 --> 00:36:31,474
Speaker 2: young female.

744
00:36:31,114 --> 00:36:32,194
Speaker 3: Look Jordy Shop.

745
00:36:32,274 --> 00:36:35,114
Speaker 2: Yeah very much. You see it on every reality show,

746
00:36:35,354 --> 00:36:38,834
Speaker 2: very Love Island, and it's very high maintenance. Let's just

747
00:36:38,914 --> 00:36:40,554
Speaker 2: call it what it is, high maintenance.

748
00:36:40,714 --> 00:36:40,873
Speaker 1: Right.

749
00:36:41,474 --> 00:36:45,674
Speaker 2: And then in Australia, although obviously there are high maintenance

750
00:36:45,714 --> 00:36:49,314
Speaker 2: pockets and all kinds of different cult suburbs coming together

751
00:36:49,354 --> 00:36:54,473
Speaker 2: and every but the predominant kind of mainstream vibe of

752
00:36:54,474 --> 00:36:58,114
Speaker 2: what an Australian particularly. Let's remember that these people often

753
00:36:58,114 --> 00:37:01,794
Speaker 2: come and move to beachy places, so they congregate around

754
00:37:01,914 --> 00:37:06,274
Speaker 2: coastlines in Australian cities, and what they see is people

755
00:37:06,314 --> 00:37:10,474
Speaker 2: getting up at far running outside looking amazing in the

756
00:37:10,594 --> 00:37:13,473
Speaker 2: active where everybody's like just coming out of the surf

757
00:37:13,514 --> 00:37:18,314
Speaker 2: and their hairs and it's a completely different esthetic. So

758
00:37:18,554 --> 00:37:20,674
Speaker 2: I think one hundreds of what happens. And when I

759
00:37:20,714 --> 00:37:22,794
Speaker 2: came and I was young, I was twenty three when

760
00:37:22,794 --> 00:37:26,394
Speaker 2: I came to Australia, that wasn't my look. But within

761
00:37:26,914 --> 00:37:31,274
Speaker 2: weeks months I was like swimmers with the denim mini

762
00:37:31,354 --> 00:37:34,473
Speaker 2: dungarees over the top, like always air dried hair which

763
00:37:34,514 --> 00:37:39,553
Speaker 2: suited me, freckles like, it's just a very much looser vibe.

764
00:37:39,594 --> 00:37:42,674
Speaker 2: It's one hundred percent Tury. You would look weird. I

765
00:37:42,674 --> 00:37:45,714
Speaker 2: mean maybe not again, depending on where you were down

766
00:37:45,754 --> 00:37:49,314
Speaker 2: at Bondie at six am with all of that stuff

767
00:37:49,354 --> 00:37:49,594
Speaker 2: on you.

768
00:37:49,754 --> 00:37:53,274
Speaker 3: Okay, Amelia, you have lived in lots of different places

769
00:37:53,274 --> 00:37:57,394
Speaker 3: all over the world. Do you find that how you dress,

770
00:37:57,434 --> 00:37:58,834
Speaker 3: how you do your makeup, how you do your hair

771
00:37:58,954 --> 00:38:00,393
Speaker 3: changes when you're in Australia.

772
00:38:00,594 --> 00:38:02,913
Speaker 1: It's a really good question. I'm going to push back

773
00:38:02,954 --> 00:38:05,674
Speaker 1: against this idea a little bit. I think that the

774
00:38:05,794 --> 00:38:10,194
Speaker 1: low maintenance look in Australia has become extremely high maintenance

775
00:38:10,354 --> 00:38:14,154
Speaker 1: in recent years. So I came back here to live

776
00:38:14,274 --> 00:38:17,033
Speaker 1: last year, and I think in the last i want

777
00:38:17,074 --> 00:38:21,714
Speaker 1: to say, five to ten years, I see way more

778
00:38:21,754 --> 00:38:24,513
Speaker 1: lip filler here than I do on the East Coast

779
00:38:24,594 --> 00:38:27,393
Speaker 1: of the United States. Just as an example, like that's

780
00:38:27,394 --> 00:38:31,154
Speaker 1: a very popular look here is the lip filler. Fake

781
00:38:31,274 --> 00:38:33,554
Speaker 1: tan is a much bigger thing here than it is

782
00:38:33,874 --> 00:38:36,834
Speaker 1: in the US. And the idea of some people really

783
00:38:36,994 --> 00:38:39,873
Speaker 1: maintain their fake tan all through winter, and they're doing

784
00:38:39,914 --> 00:38:42,154
Speaker 1: it on Sundays when they wash their bras and so on.

785
00:38:42,754 --> 00:38:45,553
Speaker 1: And the hair is the beechy wave takes a lot

786
00:38:45,594 --> 00:38:47,873
Speaker 1: of work, unless you're holy, in which case she does

787
00:38:47,914 --> 00:38:50,874
Speaker 1: have naturally beachy waves, which is annoying. But for most

788
00:38:50,914 --> 00:38:53,474
Speaker 1: of us, beachie waves take work.

789
00:38:53,794 --> 00:38:56,594
Speaker 3: Okay, So I liken this too. When I go on

790
00:38:56,594 --> 00:39:00,154
Speaker 3: a holiday and I pack my straighter and my makeup

791
00:39:00,154 --> 00:39:02,594
Speaker 3: bag and they never come out. It's exadly like that,

792
00:39:02,674 --> 00:39:05,714
Speaker 3: and I go and I just become a coastal goddess,

793
00:39:05,754 --> 00:39:07,274
Speaker 3: and I look in the mirror and I go, you

794
00:39:07,274 --> 00:39:11,234
Speaker 3: look great. Look at you with your like messy hair.

795
00:39:11,474 --> 00:39:13,354
Speaker 3: But if I turned up to an office like that,

796
00:39:13,474 --> 00:39:17,074
Speaker 3: I would look scraggly and just like unkempt or whatever.

797
00:39:17,514 --> 00:39:19,993
Speaker 3: So I wonder if it's more of a coastal thing.

798
00:39:20,114 --> 00:39:22,393
Speaker 2: Oh, it's one hundred percent coastal. Yeah, yeah, I think

799
00:39:22,434 --> 00:39:25,593
Speaker 2: it's very much place to a particular stereotype. The young

800
00:39:25,634 --> 00:39:28,074
Speaker 2: women that she's talking about in that video, that's where

801
00:39:28,114 --> 00:39:29,513
Speaker 2: they are. Yeah, you know what I mean, they are

802
00:39:29,514 --> 00:39:32,234
Speaker 2: hanging out in those places. It's not like all of

803
00:39:32,274 --> 00:39:35,594
Speaker 2: Australia is like that or that even a few suburbs

804
00:39:35,634 --> 00:39:38,074
Speaker 2: back from the beach is like that. But there's very

805
00:39:38,154 --> 00:39:40,714
Speaker 2: much a kind of a different aesthetic. It's very well

806
00:39:40,754 --> 00:39:43,554
Speaker 2: documented on the internet. You can find a million tiktoks

807
00:39:43,554 --> 00:39:46,714
Speaker 2: of like taking off my British chav makeup, or going

808
00:39:46,754 --> 00:39:49,314
Speaker 2: from a British girl to an American girl, going from

809
00:39:49,354 --> 00:39:51,594
Speaker 2: a British girl to an Australian girl. Like, there are

810
00:39:51,634 --> 00:39:53,873
Speaker 2: no question different stud And.

811
00:39:53,874 --> 00:39:57,874
Speaker 3: You probably wouldn't walk around Manchester barefoot you've any season

812
00:39:57,914 --> 00:39:59,474
Speaker 3: whereas I do that very Oden.

813
00:39:59,314 --> 00:40:01,114
Speaker 2: You really wouldn't.

814
00:40:01,994 --> 00:40:05,234
Speaker 1: After the break, we're going to unpack the article which

815
00:40:05,314 --> 00:40:09,393
Speaker 1: prompted a very heated debate about old mums.

816
00:40:09,954 --> 00:40:13,274
Speaker 3: Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of MUMMYA

817
00:40:13,314 --> 00:40:16,834
Speaker 3: out Loud just for MUMMYA. Subscribers. Follow the link in

818
00:40:16,874 --> 00:40:18,913
Speaker 3: the show notes to get your daily dose of out

819
00:40:18,914 --> 00:40:24,794
Speaker 3: Loud and a big thank you to all our current subscribers.

820
00:40:27,834 --> 00:40:29,913
Speaker 1: Gather around. I'm going to tell you a story that

821
00:40:29,994 --> 00:40:32,474
Speaker 1: a lot of people think of as an urban horror story,

822
00:40:32,474 --> 00:40:34,354
Speaker 1: but this one actually happened, and it was in the

823
00:40:34,394 --> 00:40:38,154
Speaker 1: New York Times recently. Mary Beth Lewis is a retired

824
00:40:38,234 --> 00:40:41,114
Speaker 1: nurse living in the suburbs of New York. She had

825
00:40:41,154 --> 00:40:43,674
Speaker 1: five children with her husband, who was a very very

826
00:40:43,714 --> 00:40:46,993
Speaker 1: busy and important airline pilot. And then just as those

827
00:40:47,034 --> 00:40:49,354
Speaker 1: five children started to leave home they went out into

828
00:40:49,434 --> 00:40:52,234
Speaker 1: university or to the workplace. She got lonely. She was

829
00:40:52,234 --> 00:40:54,194
Speaker 1: in her fifties. She said, I want to have more kids.

830
00:40:54,874 --> 00:40:58,274
Speaker 1: So she used IVF to have twins just before her

831
00:40:58,314 --> 00:41:01,714
Speaker 1: fiftieth birthday. And then in her fifties and I need

832
00:41:01,754 --> 00:41:04,594
Speaker 1: to get this exactly right, she had another daughter. She

833
00:41:04,714 --> 00:41:07,634
Speaker 1: had twin boys. She had a third set of twins

834
00:41:08,074 --> 00:41:11,794
Speaker 1: and a thirteenth child. At sixty two, she's got more children.

835
00:41:11,834 --> 00:41:14,314
Speaker 3: And those children she all physically carried and birthed.

836
00:41:14,394 --> 00:41:16,473
Speaker 1: She physically carried in births. And what I took from

837
00:41:16,474 --> 00:41:18,634
Speaker 1: that is, Jesse, I never want to hear you complain

838
00:41:18,754 --> 00:41:20,154
Speaker 1: about carrying twins again.

839
00:41:20,394 --> 00:41:24,074
Speaker 2: What a lightweight you are? I know, Worry Beth is

840
00:41:24,114 --> 00:41:24,794
Speaker 2: the standard.

841
00:41:24,914 --> 00:41:26,794
Speaker 3: She survived it and did it again and again and

842
00:41:26,834 --> 00:41:30,114
Speaker 3: again in her fifties. I'm finding this. This is inspiration

843
00:41:30,234 --> 00:41:30,754
Speaker 3: pawn for me.

844
00:41:30,954 --> 00:41:34,114
Speaker 1: Okay. So next, what happened is that her husband, who

845
00:41:34,154 --> 00:41:36,754
Speaker 1: had recently retired, said I don't want any more kids.

846
00:41:36,794 --> 00:41:39,873
Speaker 1: But here's the problem. Mary Beth wanted more kids. By

847
00:41:39,874 --> 00:41:42,274
Speaker 1: the way, her adult children at this point are begging

848
00:41:42,314 --> 00:41:45,154
Speaker 1: her not to have more children. They were fairly indulgent

849
00:41:45,274 --> 00:41:47,794
Speaker 1: of the couple of kids that she had first naturally

850
00:41:47,834 --> 00:41:50,234
Speaker 1: in her late fifties, but they didn't want her to

851
00:41:50,274 --> 00:41:52,234
Speaker 1: have more kids because they were looking after these kids.

852
00:41:52,274 --> 00:41:54,234
Speaker 1: The adult kids were looking after the little kids.

853
00:41:54,274 --> 00:41:58,074
Speaker 3: And she used IVF throughout her fifties. Correct, yes, she

854
00:41:58,194 --> 00:41:58,914
Speaker 3: used IVF.

855
00:41:59,034 --> 00:42:02,473
Speaker 1: And then what happened was she went behind her partner's back,

856
00:42:02,514 --> 00:42:06,354
Speaker 1: behind her grown children's backs. She hired a surrogate to

857
00:42:06,434 --> 00:42:11,194
Speaker 1: deliver her full fourteenth and her fifteenth children. This is

858
00:42:11,234 --> 00:42:12,194
Speaker 1: where the troubles begin.

859
00:42:12,394 --> 00:42:14,033
Speaker 2: That this is where the troubles begin.

860
00:42:15,274 --> 00:42:15,714
Speaker 1: I think the.

861
00:42:15,714 --> 00:42:17,714
Speaker 2: Troubles have already begun.

862
00:42:17,914 --> 00:42:20,834
Speaker 1: Her fourteenth and her fifteenth children were taken away from

863
00:42:20,874 --> 00:42:23,194
Speaker 1: her before she even got a chance to meet them.

864
00:42:23,234 --> 00:42:26,034
Speaker 1: Because remember these were children who were delivered by surrogates,

865
00:42:26,394 --> 00:42:28,714
Speaker 1: So before she got to hold these children, they were

866
00:42:28,754 --> 00:42:32,234
Speaker 1: whisked away from her and put into foster care. And

867
00:42:32,314 --> 00:42:36,513
Speaker 1: now she's seventy and pursuing legal action to get those

868
00:42:36,634 --> 00:42:37,274
Speaker 1: kids back.

869
00:42:37,634 --> 00:42:42,074
Speaker 3: Wow, who are not genetically hers doesn't have an egg

870
00:42:42,114 --> 00:42:47,194
Speaker 3: of hers or her husband's sperm, but it shares a

871
00:42:47,234 --> 00:42:51,234
Speaker 3: donor with some of the children she's already had, so

872
00:42:51,394 --> 00:42:56,434
Speaker 3: some of her children would be biological siblings to these twins.

873
00:42:56,874 --> 00:42:59,393
Speaker 3: But she and this is where it gets really complicated too,

874
00:42:59,714 --> 00:43:05,873
Speaker 3: is genetically and gestationally and socially, she hasn't been their mother,

875
00:43:05,994 --> 00:43:08,993
Speaker 3: although she was the one who intended and to be born.

876
00:43:09,194 --> 00:43:12,274
Speaker 2: Because in America, this is something you can pay people

877
00:43:12,314 --> 00:43:12,554
Speaker 2: to do.

878
00:43:12,594 --> 00:43:14,794
Speaker 1: Correct, She's paid hundreds of thousands of stars.

879
00:43:14,954 --> 00:43:18,514
Speaker 2: She's basically paid for those children, which I assume is

880
00:43:18,554 --> 00:43:19,594
Speaker 2: part of her legal case.

881
00:43:19,754 --> 00:43:19,953
Speaker 1: Right.

882
00:43:19,994 --> 00:43:23,554
Speaker 2: So she's like, I have bought those children, and yet

883
00:43:23,594 --> 00:43:25,794
Speaker 2: I do not have those children that would be part

884
00:43:25,834 --> 00:43:27,154
Speaker 2: of this, wouldn't it I imagine.

885
00:43:27,114 --> 00:43:29,714
Speaker 1: No, that's a great point. Absolutely, And the judge that

886
00:43:29,754 --> 00:43:32,354
Speaker 1: took the children away from her didn't really have a

887
00:43:32,554 --> 00:43:35,234
Speaker 1: very sound legal reasoning for why he did it. He

888
00:43:35,354 --> 00:43:38,554
Speaker 1: basically made a vibes based decision that she was too

889
00:43:38,634 --> 00:43:40,433
Speaker 1: old to look after these kids.

890
00:43:40,154 --> 00:43:43,114
Speaker 2: Which I think lots of people would probably sympathize with.

891
00:43:43,234 --> 00:43:47,354
Speaker 3: But then what's interesting is how many judges, in cases

892
00:43:47,354 --> 00:43:51,154
Speaker 3: of child protection or you know, due to tragic circumstances,

893
00:43:51,154 --> 00:43:54,154
Speaker 3: you lose a mother or a father, would those children

894
00:43:54,194 --> 00:43:56,114
Speaker 3: then go into the custody of the grandparents. That would

895
00:43:56,114 --> 00:43:59,674
Speaker 3: happen all of the time, and that can't be aged discrimination.

896
00:43:59,754 --> 00:44:02,594
Speaker 1: Ed, right, That's a good point. So this is so

897
00:44:02,834 --> 00:44:05,154
Speaker 1: I want to broaden this out to talk about old

898
00:44:05,234 --> 00:44:07,634
Speaker 1: moms and why we have a revulsion of about them.

899
00:44:08,154 --> 00:44:11,074
Speaker 1: But before I get to that, this story, what did

900
00:44:11,074 --> 00:44:12,354
Speaker 1: it make you feel, Holly?

901
00:44:13,394 --> 00:44:15,314
Speaker 2: It made me very sad. I think this is a

902
00:44:15,354 --> 00:44:17,913
Speaker 2: story of extremes. And I know that you should never

903
00:44:17,994 --> 00:44:21,034
Speaker 2: diagnose people who you know. I'm not a professional, but

904
00:44:21,234 --> 00:44:23,593
Speaker 2: Mary Beth to me seems like she has some mental

905
00:44:23,674 --> 00:44:27,274
Speaker 2: illness issues right the bit, as you said, Amelia, the

906
00:44:27,354 --> 00:44:29,674
Speaker 2: kids left home, and she said, in this article it

907
00:44:29,674 --> 00:44:32,433
Speaker 2: says this is empty. She thought, I don't like this

908
00:44:32,674 --> 00:44:34,873
Speaker 2: at all, but so many women That's what I was

909
00:44:34,874 --> 00:44:36,554
Speaker 2: going to say. But what I'm going to say is

910
00:44:36,634 --> 00:44:40,913
Speaker 2: that's a very familiar feeling to lots of people. They

911
00:44:41,034 --> 00:44:44,434
Speaker 2: don't all go, you know what, I'm going to start

912
00:44:44,434 --> 00:44:47,914
Speaker 2: all over again, like to fulfill that. And it reminded

913
00:44:47,914 --> 00:44:50,393
Speaker 2: me of somebody I met recently who she had quite

914
00:44:50,434 --> 00:44:54,114
Speaker 2: a complicated family, but she said her mother loved babies.

915
00:44:53,874 --> 00:44:56,554
Speaker 1: Loved babies, you hear that often, yep.

916
00:44:56,674 --> 00:44:59,234
Speaker 2: And would foster babies in any kind, but then kind

917
00:44:59,274 --> 00:45:01,194
Speaker 2: of lost interest in them as they got a bit older,

918
00:45:01,234 --> 00:45:05,274
Speaker 2: you know, Like I think there is a point obviously

919
00:45:05,314 --> 00:45:09,834
Speaker 2: at which your urges and your desires clash into the

920
00:45:09,874 --> 00:45:11,913
Speaker 2: well being of kids. Now, you know, I don't know

921
00:45:12,034 --> 00:45:14,954
Speaker 2: Mary Beth, and I'm not qualified to say this, but

922
00:45:15,114 --> 00:45:17,834
Speaker 2: it seems to be that in this very extreme case

923
00:45:17,834 --> 00:45:21,433
Speaker 2: of somebody who is fulfilling, as she says, an emptiness

924
00:45:21,474 --> 00:45:24,794
Speaker 2: in her at some point, isn't it fair enough that

925
00:45:24,874 --> 00:45:28,314
Speaker 2: somebody's going to intervene and say, hey, Mary Beth, maybe

926
00:45:28,314 --> 00:45:30,354
Speaker 2: you should just get some therapy.

927
00:45:30,074 --> 00:45:33,994
Speaker 3: And how the rights of a child intersect with the

928
00:45:34,074 --> 00:45:36,114
Speaker 3: rights of a mother, with the rights of a father,

929
00:45:36,314 --> 00:45:39,634
Speaker 3: and then add on top of all of that reproductive technology.

930
00:45:39,634 --> 00:45:43,674
Speaker 3: Because that's the story here, is that what are the

931
00:45:43,994 --> 00:45:47,954
Speaker 3: ethics the limits of reproductive technology?

932
00:45:47,994 --> 00:45:51,314
Speaker 2: And I'm really uncomfortable to say when is too old

933
00:45:51,354 --> 00:45:54,754
Speaker 2: and for there to be Like in Australia, there aren't

934
00:45:54,834 --> 00:45:57,274
Speaker 2: hard and fast rules, but different states and different clinics

935
00:45:57,274 --> 00:46:01,674
Speaker 2: have their own rules. But generally speaking, mid forties is

936
00:46:01,714 --> 00:46:06,154
Speaker 2: often when IVF clinics will stop treating you. If donors

937
00:46:06,154 --> 00:46:09,274
Speaker 2: are involved, they'll push to fifties. This is obviously there

938
00:46:09,314 --> 00:46:12,634
Speaker 2: is actually firm ruling on it, but that's broadly the

939
00:46:12,674 --> 00:46:15,634
Speaker 2: cutoff is seen to be around that time. You know,

940
00:46:15,714 --> 00:46:17,474
Speaker 2: I was an old mum. I was forty when I

941
00:46:17,514 --> 00:46:19,354
Speaker 2: had my second child, and some people would have thoughts

942
00:46:19,394 --> 00:46:21,314
Speaker 2: about that. You often hear people say it's much better

943
00:46:21,354 --> 00:46:22,953
Speaker 2: to have them young and that you won't be around

944
00:46:22,954 --> 00:46:24,794
Speaker 2: when they're old, and da da da da da. But

945
00:46:24,874 --> 00:46:26,994
Speaker 2: as you pointed out with that example about people who

946
00:46:27,074 --> 00:46:29,473
Speaker 2: lose parents and get put in the care of grandparents,

947
00:46:29,834 --> 00:46:32,754
Speaker 2: it's not like having your kids young inoculates you from

948
00:46:32,754 --> 00:46:35,474
Speaker 2: all those eventualities and means you're definitely going to be

949
00:46:35,474 --> 00:46:37,194
Speaker 2: living down the road from them when they have their

950
00:46:37,274 --> 00:46:39,913
Speaker 2: kids and whatever. So I'm not a believer in like

951
00:46:40,114 --> 00:46:42,554
Speaker 2: this is too old, full stop the end, but I

952
00:46:42,594 --> 00:46:46,594
Speaker 2: think this is an extreme case, and in extreme cases,

953
00:46:46,754 --> 00:46:48,794
Speaker 2: I kind of think the intervention is fair enough.

954
00:46:48,874 --> 00:46:51,234
Speaker 1: No, it is an extreme case, and the starts back

955
00:46:51,274 --> 00:46:54,354
Speaker 1: that up. Only something like twelve hundred American women in

956
00:46:54,394 --> 00:46:56,994
Speaker 1: their fifties gave birth in twenty twenty three, which is

957
00:46:57,034 --> 00:46:59,034
Speaker 1: the most recent year stats have been collected, So it

958
00:46:59,114 --> 00:47:03,194
Speaker 1: is an extreme case. But the reason I get uncomfortable

959
00:47:03,274 --> 00:47:05,834
Speaker 1: hearing people say, well, then they'll never be there for

960
00:47:05,874 --> 00:47:08,433
Speaker 1: your high school graduation and they'll never be able to

961
00:47:08,474 --> 00:47:11,874
Speaker 1: see you grow up. It's like we don't decide whether

962
00:47:12,074 --> 00:47:15,393
Speaker 1: women can have children based on whether we know they'll

963
00:47:15,434 --> 00:47:18,033
Speaker 1: be a good mother or not. And it's getting into

964
00:47:18,074 --> 00:47:19,873
Speaker 1: that issue of like, well, but you won't be a

965
00:47:19,914 --> 00:47:21,474
Speaker 1: good enough mother because you won't be there for the

966
00:47:21,554 --> 00:47:23,794
Speaker 1: high school graduation. And if you go down that path,

967
00:47:24,114 --> 00:47:26,514
Speaker 1: then you're going to start deeming all sorts of mothers

968
00:47:26,594 --> 00:47:29,714
Speaker 1: not particularly good mothers for various reasons because of choices

969
00:47:29,754 --> 00:47:32,354
Speaker 1: they made because of how they live their lives, and

970
00:47:32,594 --> 00:47:35,114
Speaker 1: that's what bothers me about the moralism around it. I

971
00:47:35,154 --> 00:47:38,554
Speaker 1: also want to say that Mary Beth, by all accounts,

972
00:47:38,634 --> 00:47:41,473
Speaker 1: was an excellent mother. And so even in this very

973
00:47:41,474 --> 00:47:44,194
Speaker 1: long New York Times magazine piece which we're talking about,

974
00:47:44,234 --> 00:47:48,154
Speaker 1: which is clearly very skeptical about her case, legally, her

975
00:47:48,234 --> 00:47:51,074
Speaker 1: children talk about she was an amazing mother. She took

976
00:47:51,114 --> 00:47:53,594
Speaker 1: them lots of interesting places, even when they didn't have

977
00:47:53,594 --> 00:47:56,074
Speaker 1: a lot of money, and then when they did acquire

978
00:47:56,154 --> 00:47:59,194
Speaker 1: more money, when her husband's career took off, she still

979
00:47:59,274 --> 00:48:01,834
Speaker 1: really wanted to make sure that she was there for

980
00:48:01,874 --> 00:48:04,114
Speaker 1: them and that she was there emotionally for them, which

981
00:48:04,154 --> 00:48:07,393
Speaker 1: by all accounts she was. There's another interesting dynam in

982
00:48:07,434 --> 00:48:10,433
Speaker 1: her story, which is that her husband was clearly a

983
00:48:10,594 --> 00:48:14,434
Speaker 1: very absent father, so he was the primary bread winner

984
00:48:14,514 --> 00:48:18,034
Speaker 1: in that he was this successful commercial airline pilot. He

985
00:48:18,114 --> 00:48:21,274
Speaker 1: was never there, and what the story makes clear is

986
00:48:21,314 --> 00:48:24,513
Speaker 1: that they liked it that way. He liked not being there.

987
00:48:24,554 --> 00:48:27,194
Speaker 1: He liked, as the story says, taking selfies in front

988
00:48:27,234 --> 00:48:28,913
Speaker 1: of the Sydney Opera House when he was down in

989
00:48:28,914 --> 00:48:32,074
Speaker 1: Australia after flying a plane there, or he liked having

990
00:48:32,114 --> 00:48:34,714
Speaker 1: a beer in airport hotel bars at the end of

991
00:48:34,754 --> 00:48:37,473
Speaker 1: a long flight. He didn't particularly want to be there

992
00:48:37,514 --> 00:48:40,474
Speaker 1: for the kids. She loved being there for the kids.

993
00:48:41,154 --> 00:48:44,154
Speaker 1: And I think that adds this whole other complicated wrinkle

994
00:48:44,154 --> 00:48:44,914
Speaker 1: into the story.

995
00:48:45,074 --> 00:48:48,874
Speaker 3: Does And I felt throughout the story an enormous amount

996
00:48:48,914 --> 00:48:51,834
Speaker 3: of empathy for mary Beth. And I kept thinking, there

997
00:48:51,874 --> 00:48:54,834
Speaker 3: is nothing quite like the desire to have children.

998
00:48:55,234 --> 00:48:59,194
Speaker 2: She had thirteen children already. I want to be empathetic, Jesse,

999
00:48:59,274 --> 00:49:01,913
Speaker 2: and I am to a point. But it's not like

1000
00:49:02,034 --> 00:49:03,554
Speaker 2: she didn't have children.

1001
00:49:03,754 --> 00:49:06,554
Speaker 3: No, no, I know, but like, for example, so I

1002
00:49:06,634 --> 00:49:11,674
Speaker 3: had Luna, and then I would have gone to enormous

1003
00:49:11,754 --> 00:49:12,874
Speaker 3: lengths to have another baby.

1004
00:49:12,914 --> 00:49:15,834
Speaker 2: I know, Jesse. But again, you can't compare yourself.

1005
00:49:17,474 --> 00:49:20,234
Speaker 3: Your spot on, your spot on, And that's why I

1006
00:49:20,354 --> 00:49:24,634
Speaker 3: kept kind of reminding, like, this is a human being

1007
00:49:24,634 --> 00:49:27,074
Speaker 3: who longs for her two children, and I kept kind

1008
00:49:27,114 --> 00:49:30,514
Speaker 3: of coming back to the humanity in that experience. The

1009
00:49:30,594 --> 00:49:34,274
Speaker 3: other element in terms of reproductive technologies is that they

1010
00:49:34,514 --> 00:49:39,234
Speaker 3: could in certain embryo into mary Beth. The twins that

1011
00:49:39,274 --> 00:49:42,834
Speaker 3: she had right before her fiftieth birthday nearly killed her.

1012
00:49:43,274 --> 00:49:47,314
Speaker 3: Like she had such an awful complication that she could

1013
00:49:47,394 --> 00:49:51,914
Speaker 3: have died, and that puts health professionals in such a

1014
00:49:52,034 --> 00:49:56,194
Speaker 3: The resources it takes for someone who is fifty five

1015
00:49:56,394 --> 00:49:58,873
Speaker 3: fifty nine giving birth to a set of twins like

1016
00:49:58,914 --> 00:50:00,914
Speaker 3: that is an enormous.

1017
00:50:00,754 --> 00:50:02,953
Speaker 2: So they actually refused, didn't they to let her have

1018
00:50:03,034 --> 00:50:03,594
Speaker 2: good lust.

1019
00:50:03,634 --> 00:50:06,714
Speaker 3: So they said she wanted to have naturally as in

1020
00:50:06,874 --> 00:50:11,033
Speaker 3: birth children after the age of sixty, and they said,

1021
00:50:11,114 --> 00:50:14,513
Speaker 3: you've had six seed sections and the scar is paper thing.

1022
00:50:14,594 --> 00:50:16,834
Speaker 3: You will bleed to death. If you try and carry

1023
00:50:16,874 --> 00:50:19,393
Speaker 3: this child, you'll bleed to death. So that's kind of

1024
00:50:19,434 --> 00:50:25,033
Speaker 3: another element. But then it's an uncomfortable conversation because you'd

1025
00:50:25,114 --> 00:50:29,913
Speaker 3: never want to shame. What reproductive technology has done for

1026
00:50:30,194 --> 00:50:33,354
Speaker 3: same sex couples, for people who would otherwise not have

1027
00:50:33,434 --> 00:50:36,634
Speaker 3: children at any age is incredible.

1028
00:50:36,874 --> 00:50:39,634
Speaker 2: And also the thing is, as you've touched on, the

1029
00:50:39,714 --> 00:50:42,314
Speaker 2: reason why this is quite an interesting thing to consider,

1030
00:50:42,634 --> 00:50:45,994
Speaker 2: is that reproductive technology is one thing, but also longevity

1031
00:50:46,074 --> 00:50:48,393
Speaker 2: science is another. And we are seeing the people are

1032
00:50:48,474 --> 00:50:51,674
Speaker 2: convinced that they can live better, healthier, for longer, and

1033
00:50:51,674 --> 00:50:53,514
Speaker 2: that your forties isn't what your forties used to be,

1034
00:50:53,634 --> 00:50:55,554
Speaker 2: and your fifties isn't what your fifties used to be.

1035
00:50:56,114 --> 00:50:59,354
Speaker 2: And so there is a perception and I've heard it

1036
00:50:59,434 --> 00:51:02,674
Speaker 2: talked about on American podcasts and things like that, whatever

1037
00:51:02,834 --> 00:51:05,513
Speaker 2: cutoff limit we used to have in our minds for

1038
00:51:05,794 --> 00:51:07,433
Speaker 2: when a woman and it's always a woman, as I'm

1039
00:51:07,434 --> 00:51:09,274
Speaker 2: sure we're about to get to, but when a woman

1040
00:51:09,674 --> 00:51:13,274
Speaker 2: should have a baby like that gate is being bashed

1041
00:51:13,354 --> 00:51:17,634
Speaker 2: down with you know, all the supplements and health breakthroughs

1042
00:51:17,674 --> 00:51:19,634
Speaker 2: and fertility, and so we are going to have to

1043
00:51:19,634 --> 00:51:22,314
Speaker 2: grapple with these issues. But I agree with you Amelia

1044
00:51:22,354 --> 00:51:24,714
Speaker 2: that putting moralism around it is nonsense.

1045
00:51:24,754 --> 00:51:25,714
Speaker 3: It's dangerous.

1046
00:51:25,754 --> 00:51:28,634
Speaker 2: But at the same time, Mary Beth Babe, I think

1047
00:51:29,154 --> 00:51:31,194
Speaker 2: maybe thirteen children is enough.

1048
00:51:31,234 --> 00:51:34,554
Speaker 1: Mary BET's got some unique problems. But you know what's

1049
00:51:34,674 --> 00:51:39,234
Speaker 1: not that extreme is old dads and celebrity old dads.

1050
00:51:39,314 --> 00:51:41,473
Speaker 1: There's no tut tutting about them. There is a little

1051
00:51:41,514 --> 00:51:43,914
Speaker 1: bit more increasingly, I think, but for a long time

1052
00:51:43,994 --> 00:51:46,234
Speaker 1: there it was sort of seen as a mark of

1053
00:51:46,274 --> 00:51:49,034
Speaker 1: pride that they were still virile enough to father children.

1054
00:51:49,114 --> 00:51:52,354
Speaker 1: And just a couple of extreme examples from the celebrity world.

1055
00:51:52,394 --> 00:51:55,873
Speaker 1: Al Pacino became a dad for a fourth time last

1056
00:51:55,914 --> 00:52:00,114
Speaker 1: year at eighty three eighty three, and just last month

1057
00:52:00,234 --> 00:52:02,714
Speaker 1: Kelsey Grammar, congrats he became a dad for the eighth

1058
00:52:02,714 --> 00:52:06,634
Speaker 1: time at seventy. And there is no judge taking those

1059
00:52:06,714 --> 00:52:09,513
Speaker 1: children or taking custody of those children away from these

1060
00:52:09,554 --> 00:52:10,074
Speaker 1: old dads.

1061
00:52:10,114 --> 00:52:12,594
Speaker 2: I now is that there is no judge taking them

1062
00:52:12,634 --> 00:52:15,114
Speaker 2: away because they think that they're in the care of

1063
00:52:15,154 --> 00:52:16,034
Speaker 2: their younger mothers.

1064
00:52:16,154 --> 00:52:16,354
Speaker 1: Right.

1065
00:52:16,434 --> 00:52:18,354
Speaker 2: So the age of the women these men are having

1066
00:52:18,434 --> 00:52:23,314
Speaker 2: children are spoiler alert Hollway, Yeah, is quite a lot less. However,

1067
00:52:23,474 --> 00:52:27,114
Speaker 2: I do feel very judgy about those guys like I do.

1068
00:52:27,314 --> 00:52:29,393
Speaker 2: Why do I feel so judgy about that? Why do

1069
00:52:29,474 --> 00:52:30,154
Speaker 2: I feel.

1070
00:52:29,914 --> 00:52:32,754
Speaker 1: Because science says that as men's sperm gets older, the

1071
00:52:32,914 --> 00:52:35,913
Speaker 1: risk of medical complications increases. We don't talk about that

1072
00:52:35,954 --> 00:52:38,354
Speaker 1: as much as we do as for women, but it's true.

1073
00:52:38,434 --> 00:52:41,154
Speaker 2: And do I also think that the eighty three year

1074
00:52:41,154 --> 00:52:44,473
Speaker 2: old al Pacino is you know, I is not.

1075
00:52:44,394 --> 00:52:45,954
Speaker 3: Taking the responsibility seriously?

1076
00:52:46,074 --> 00:52:48,474
Speaker 2: Well? No. And also, although I very much agree with

1077
00:52:48,514 --> 00:52:50,594
Speaker 2: what you said before, Amelia about we don't go around

1078
00:52:50,594 --> 00:52:52,274
Speaker 2: saying or you should be able to have children because

1079
00:52:52,274 --> 00:52:53,674
Speaker 2: you're going to live a long time and be at

1080
00:52:53,714 --> 00:52:57,953
Speaker 2: the graduation, which is a nonsense idea. But al Pacino

1081
00:52:58,594 --> 00:53:01,234
Speaker 2: eighty three like it's really not going to be around it.

1082
00:53:01,434 --> 00:53:04,034
Speaker 2: So it doesn't feel like the fathering part of that

1083
00:53:04,154 --> 00:53:08,154
Speaker 2: is like an active choice more and again, maybe I'm

1084
00:53:08,234 --> 00:53:11,754
Speaker 2: judging too much or something that his younger partner wanted.

1085
00:53:12,194 --> 00:53:14,433
Speaker 3: Yeah, his job is to exist and a mother's job

1086
00:53:14,474 --> 00:53:15,433
Speaker 3: is to do everything else.

1087
00:53:15,594 --> 00:53:15,914
Speaker 2: Yes.

1088
00:53:16,914 --> 00:53:20,834
Speaker 3: Now, while we're on the topic of parenting, Amelia, you

1089
00:53:21,154 --> 00:53:24,634
Speaker 3: cheat on us on Saturdays with Parenting out Loud. Can

1090
00:53:24,674 --> 00:53:28,154
Speaker 3: you tell us what is on your agenda for Saturday's episode?

1091
00:53:28,394 --> 00:53:30,834
Speaker 1: Yeah, think of me as the Orlando Bloom to your

1092
00:53:30,914 --> 00:53:34,674
Speaker 1: Katie part if you will. I do another podcast on

1093
00:53:34,674 --> 00:53:38,714
Speaker 1: this network called Parenting out Loud with Mons and Stacy, Yes,

1094
00:53:38,834 --> 00:53:41,714
Speaker 1: who are known to the out Loud universe, and it's

1095
00:53:41,754 --> 00:53:43,954
Speaker 1: similar to what we chat about here on out Loud.

1096
00:53:44,234 --> 00:53:47,674
Speaker 1: It feels very similar. It's not parenting advice. It's not

1097
00:53:47,794 --> 00:53:51,074
Speaker 1: oh gosh, I have spit up on my shirt and eyes.

1098
00:53:51,074 --> 00:53:52,314
Speaker 3: Like the conversation we just had.

1099
00:53:52,514 --> 00:53:54,754
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not like a clip art of like a

1100
00:53:54,834 --> 00:53:57,234
Speaker 1: working mom with like you know, the laptop and the

1101
00:53:57,314 --> 00:54:00,994
Speaker 1: high heels. Like these are real conversations, really thinky conversations

1102
00:54:01,034 --> 00:54:05,794
Speaker 1: about what's in the parenting zeitgeist. It's the conversation I

1103
00:54:05,834 --> 00:54:08,433
Speaker 1: think the parents really want to have, but which they

1104
00:54:08,514 --> 00:54:10,873
Speaker 1: might be too scared to voice out loud and with

1105
00:54:10,954 --> 00:54:11,554
Speaker 1: my friends.

1106
00:54:11,594 --> 00:54:12,914
Speaker 3: What's Saturday's episode about?

1107
00:54:13,194 --> 00:54:17,154
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this week we're talking about a very controversial

1108
00:54:17,514 --> 00:54:20,553
Speaker 1: new skincare brand has launched for little kids. We're talking

1109
00:54:20,594 --> 00:54:21,314
Speaker 1: like three year old.

1110
00:54:21,234 --> 00:54:23,994
Speaker 2: I've seen this, Yeah, yeah, and I'm dying to know

1111
00:54:23,994 --> 00:54:24,714
Speaker 2: what you think about that.

1112
00:54:24,834 --> 00:54:27,393
Speaker 1: Where we got to on that was we sort of

1113
00:54:27,394 --> 00:54:30,474
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about whether girlhood is just another consumer

1114
00:54:30,554 --> 00:54:33,714
Speaker 1: identity now it's just another thing to buy, another market

1115
00:54:33,754 --> 00:54:36,234
Speaker 1: to pitch too, and is that bad? Like how should

1116
00:54:36,234 --> 00:54:38,913
Speaker 1: we feel about that? And we also wanted to talk

1117
00:54:38,914 --> 00:54:41,754
Speaker 1: about that phrase it takes a village, And where we

1118
00:54:41,834 --> 00:54:45,634
Speaker 1: got to is that maybe millennial parents don't want a village,

1119
00:54:45,794 --> 00:54:49,473
Speaker 1: Like maybe that's inconvenient, maybe it's too much trouble. Maybe

1120
00:54:49,554 --> 00:54:53,674
Speaker 1: we actually don't want a village anymore. Very controversial. So

1121
00:54:53,874 --> 00:54:56,754
Speaker 1: search Parenting out loud and hit follow and come join

1122
00:54:56,874 --> 00:54:58,274
Speaker 1: us out louders.

1123
00:54:58,314 --> 00:55:00,474
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being here with us today.

1124
00:55:00,554 --> 00:55:03,594
Speaker 2: Remember we're on YouTube and if you watch today's episode

1125
00:55:03,594 --> 00:55:06,393
Speaker 2: on YouTube, you would have seen my face when I

1126
00:55:06,474 --> 00:55:07,754
Speaker 2: was going can't tell me?

1127
00:55:09,794 --> 00:55:10,914
Speaker 1: And your beachy.

1128
00:55:10,554 --> 00:55:14,834
Speaker 2: Waves and Beachy Waves. But you can always catch all

1129
00:55:14,874 --> 00:55:17,314
Speaker 2: of the episodes on YouTube if you want to. There

1130
00:55:17,514 --> 00:55:19,194
Speaker 2: is a link in the show notes. Thank you to

1131
00:55:19,194 --> 00:55:21,834
Speaker 2: our amazing team for putting the show together. We'll see

1132
00:55:21,834 --> 00:55:22,314
Speaker 2: you tomorrow.

1133
00:55:22,674 --> 00:55:29,114
Speaker 1: Bye bye.

1134
00:55:29,954 --> 00:55:32,953
Speaker 3: Mar Mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on

1135
00:55:32,994 --> 00:55:34,834
Speaker 3: which we have recorded this podcast.