Speaker 1: After his first birthday. We were still in the High
Speaker 1: Court via zoom with me being questioned I mean it
Speaker 1: makes my blood boil, but by some sort of eighty
Speaker 1: year old gray haired man and being slightly whatever but
Speaker 1: pretty much who was saying, are you sure you try
Speaker 1: it hard enough to have a baby?
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Seas the Ya Podcast.
Speaker 3: Busy and happy, but tired and worn, just some of
Speaker 3: the feelings when baby is born. There's magic, elation, there's
Speaker 3: chaos and tears, but everyone goes through the same hopes
Speaker 3: and fears. So this is a segment we hope helps
Speaker 3: you feel supported and valid. The mum juggles real, the good, bad,
Speaker 3: the ugly, the best.
Speaker 2: And worst day.
Speaker 3: It's part of the journey to seize the Babe. I'm
Speaker 3: Sarah Davidson, a lawyer turned f entrepreneur who hung up
Speaker 3: the suits and heels to co found Mata Maiden a
Speaker 3: Macha milk bar, become a TV and radio presenter and
Speaker 3: of course host the Sees the Ya Podcast.
Speaker 2: This year I added.
Speaker 3: Motherhood to that list, which is the best job I've
Speaker 3: ever had with our beautiful baby Teddy. And this segment
Speaker 3: was designed to house all the conversations we've been having
Speaker 3: about parenthood. We'll still do our regular episodes, and just
Speaker 3: like real life, it's a constant balance between our parent
Speaker 3: identity and everything else. I hope you guys enjoy this
Speaker 3: segment as much as I have enjoyed creating it. Guys,
Speaker 3: I mentioned the crazy revelation in our last episode that
Speaker 3: our first was back in twenty eighteen, making twenty twenty
Speaker 3: five our seventh year of seizing the AA, and that
Speaker 3: makes this one of many beautiful full circle moments as
Speaker 3: we welcome back our first guest ever, the inimitable Lisa Messenger,
Speaker 3: without whom this show would not actually exist. I so
Speaker 3: often talk about sliding doors moments, and sometimes those come
Speaker 3: in the form of a person taking a leap of
Speaker 3: faith on you that changes your life forever. Lisa said
Speaker 3: yes when we hardly knew each other. I had zero
Speaker 3: proof of concept, literally had barely understood what a podcast
Speaker 3: actually was, and was so green in business. So I
Speaker 3: will always be incredibly grateful to her, and just reminding
Speaker 3: all of you to always ask the question, because you
Speaker 3: just never know who might say yes. What's even more
Speaker 3: special about this one is that while Lisa has been
Speaker 3: back on the show, a few times. We've now added
Speaker 3: motherhood to the bonds of our friendship and pathways to
Speaker 3: family that transcend DNA. Lisa was three years into trying
Speaker 3: to conceive when we first spoke back in twenty eighteen,
Speaker 3: but eighteen rounds of IVF would follow until twenty nine
Speaker 3: hundred and twenty two days after starting trying, Lisa welcomed
Speaker 3: her beautiful son, Hugo, into the world via surrogacy, being adopted.
Speaker 3: As you all know, I've always been so invested in
Speaker 3: making less traditional and sometimes stigmatized pathways to a family
Speaker 3: more accessible and better understood. So I pored over the
Speaker 3: incredible book that Lisa and her wonderful surrogate, Sarah Megison
Speaker 3: co authored, called The Power of Two, which came out
Speaker 3: late last year. They broke their hearts all the way
Speaker 3: open to share every detail of their experience, logistics, finances, emotions,
Speaker 3: and we are just so lucky to have them both
Speaker 3: on the show today. I'll let them tell you more themselves.
Speaker 3: They tell it so much better than I do. But
Speaker 3: I personally was so curious about the mechanics and logistics
Speaker 3: of surrogacy, with it still being rarely spoken about and
Speaker 3: perhaps still a bit taboo or stigmatized, but definitely not
Speaker 3: very accessible in terms of the finances and all the
Speaker 3: logistics of making it work. On the off chance that
Speaker 3: this episode might reach even one or two of you
Speaker 3: who needed a scrap of new information or a glimmer
Speaker 3: of hope, as we will talk about it felt like
Speaker 3: the perfect topic for Caesar Bab and I hope you
Speaker 3: all enjoy it as much as I did. Of course,
Speaker 3: as this is about a fertility journey, just a content warning.
Speaker 3: We do cover pregnancy loss and other similar struggles, so
Speaker 3: please do take care while listening. Lisa and Sarah, Welcome
Speaker 3: to CZA. Actually, Lise, welcome back to CZA. I feel
Speaker 3: this is maybe your fifth appearance or something like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like I've been hanging around for a
Speaker 1: while and we were just chatting before we jumped on
Speaker 1: about how I was your first party guest and you
Speaker 1: were my first plenty guest. So there's something beautiful about
Speaker 1: all of this.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, But when I was your first podcast guest, you
Speaker 3: were so established in your career. I was just helping
Speaker 3: you out because I was also editing it.
Speaker 2: But when you were my.
Speaker 3: First podcast guest, I had just started in business. The
Speaker 3: podcast Landscape was brand new. I had no idea what
Speaker 3: I was doing, and you took such a big leap
Speaker 3: of faith saying yes to me back then the show.
Speaker 3: I think that was like twenty eighteen, and I definitely
Speaker 3: wouldn't be here, my career wouldn't be where it was
Speaker 3: if you hadn't said yes. So I will always remember
Speaker 3: that and be eternally grateful. So what a full circle moment.
Speaker 1: And look at you now with one of the best
Speaker 1: podcasts on the planet. There's many full circle moments on
Speaker 1: the podcast between the three of us today.
Speaker 3: I'm sure whereas we said, this is the first time
Speaker 3: we've properly met, and yet because of your beautiful book,
Speaker 3: as we mentioned and off air, I know almost everything
Speaker 3: about your lady bits and how.
Speaker 4: Your urous works, just all the details I know.
Speaker 5: I think far too many people know more than they
Speaker 5: ever wanted to about how my inner parts work.
Speaker 3: Now I'm such a sucker for detail. But that's also
Speaker 3: the beauty of your incredible co authored book, The Power
Speaker 3: of Two, where you both give such intimate details and
Speaker 3: often quite stigmatize details of the surrogacy experience and other
Speaker 3: parts of the fertility journey. And that stigma is often
Speaker 3: the barrier to accessibility for other people who might be
Speaker 3: on a similar journey. I feel like this is quite
Speaker 3: a signature move for you, Lisa. You've always shared the financials,
Speaker 3: the data, you share numbers, and that's so unheard of.
Speaker 3: So I'm so grateful that you've put this out into
Speaker 3: the world. Thank you so much for sharing the way
Speaker 3: you do.
Speaker 2: Thank you so Where to start?
Speaker 3: There's so much I wish I could just read the
Speaker 3: entire book out to everyone, but hopefully they go and
Speaker 3: do that for themselves. Lise, maybe let's start with a
Speaker 3: bit of your fertility journey, the chronology leading up to
Speaker 3: when you met Sarah and when you embarked on this
Speaker 3: journey together. So eighteen rounds of IVF, eight years of trying,
Speaker 3: I mean in your data, twenty nine hundred and twenty
Speaker 3: two days. Gosh, you tried adoption. You've done IVF in
Speaker 3: many different formats, like tell us about the journey leading
Speaker 3: up to this point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, Sarah and I met in twenty eleven, so
Speaker 1: Sarah came before all that came back. But we met
Speaker 1: in a work capacity.
Speaker 4: We were working on book babies, not real babies.
Speaker 1: Baby sahed A number of my books in the first
Speaker 1: book she edited for me, because I write about everything
Speaker 1: that I know nothing about, and then I write as
Speaker 1: I learn as future, which is where I've written so
Speaker 1: many books. So that particular book in twenty eleven was
Speaker 1: a property investing book that Sarah and I met over.
Speaker 1: But yes, fast forward to my fertility journey and then
Speaker 1: we can go back to how we connected about all
Speaker 1: of this twenty fifteen. And it's funny because I'm so
Speaker 1: data orientated in my business now because I've had to
Speaker 1: learn to be. I am big on numbers. Stephen always
Speaker 1: says to me, Oh my god, how do you just
Speaker 1: pull these numbers out? Like I just know numbers about
Speaker 1: when things happened. So twenty fifteen, I was with my
Speaker 1: previous partner, I got pregnant to him. Sadly, I had
Speaker 1: a miscarriage and then we broke up shortly thereafter. But
Speaker 1: being a bit of a bost lady and being like
Speaker 1: I'm ready to have a baby now, that was really
Speaker 1: painful and it kind of opened the gates of I
Speaker 1: really want to be a mum. And I think it
Speaker 1: was back when I had Collective Hub Print mag and
Speaker 1: you know, we were very much about world domination at
Speaker 1: the time with the magazine in thirty seven countries, and
Speaker 1: so I was like, of course I can throw this
Speaker 1: into the mix, and of course I can achieve this,
Speaker 1: and I don't need a man to do so. So
Speaker 1: then I decided to get donus sperm, and I did
Speaker 1: two rounds of IVF using my eggs, shopping for random
Speaker 1: baby daddy's on the internet. So where I went next.
Speaker 1: Actually before that, though, I had been to Bali the
Speaker 1: Christmas of twenty sixteen, and I'd met this little baby
Speaker 1: Gracie who was lying on a mattress and I spent
Speaker 1: three days lying next to her and I tried to
Speaker 1: adopt her. So yeah, so natural conception tried to adopt
Speaker 1: two rounds with baby daddy sperm, and none of that,
Speaker 1: sadly was successful. And then I met Stephen shortly thereafter,
Speaker 1: and he was like, you know, once we knew that
Speaker 1: we were going to be together, we were like, let's
Speaker 1: try and have a baby. Yeah, And that was interesting
Speaker 1: because he was like, well, let's just go naturally. But
Speaker 1: I was already like three rounds into everything, you know,
Speaker 1: I'd done all the pieces before, and he was like,
Speaker 1: fresh off the you know, fresh out of the gates,
Speaker 1: and like, let's try to have a baby naturally. So
Speaker 1: I'd already done two rounds of and then we tried naturally,
Speaker 1: which he was determined to do, which I think makes
Speaker 1: complete sense because as we talk about in the book,
Speaker 1: we all come to things at different phases. We tried naturally,
Speaker 1: that wasn't working, so then proceeded to do a further
Speaker 1: fourteen rounds of IBF. So by the time Sair came
Speaker 1: into the picture, I had done two rounds on my
Speaker 1: own my maths now twelve with still and then was
Speaker 1: all right. Anyway, we got to fourteen sixteen and then
Speaker 1: came in for the last two. I mean, it was
Speaker 1: a long journey, and really we talked about it all
Speaker 1: in the book, but it's not a sorry book, which
Speaker 1: I think you pointed out before says it was much
Speaker 1: more around that's the through line. But for us it's
Speaker 1: about how do we tell a story and you know,
Speaker 1: share the tenacity and the never giving up and anything's
Speaker 1: possible and there's more than one way to do anything,
Speaker 1: which you know I've always been all about clearly, and
Speaker 1: I was just not going to give up until I
Speaker 1: had my beautiful scromptious, little baby in my hands. So yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's the smash.
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness.
Speaker 3: I mean it's one of those things where you had
Speaker 3: spoken so much in your life about tenacity and grit
Speaker 3: and you know, never kind of taking over an answer
Speaker 3: before that point. And yet I don't think any of
Speaker 3: the times where you'd try something for had it taken
Speaker 3: you eight years and eighteen rounds to not be able
Speaker 3: to do it, And for someone so driven and so
Speaker 3: sure that you could just do better next time and
Speaker 3: understand all the data, I can't imagine how frustrating and
Speaker 3: what a roller coaster, just how consuming that that must
Speaker 3: have been for that time.
Speaker 1: All consuming, And I think, you know, mostly what you
Speaker 1: and I have talked about previously is entrepreneurship and business,
Speaker 1: you know, which I'm very good at because I mean
Speaker 1: that's what I do. I thrive on finding solutions to
Speaker 1: problems and seeing opportunity where others see, you know, bluckages,
Speaker 1: and so that's what I do all day, every day.
Speaker 1: So it was extraordinarily frustrating that you can't just you know,
Speaker 1: throw money at something or bringing a team to solve
Speaker 1: so I mean you can. I did throw a lot
Speaker 1: of money and did bring in a lot of teams.
Speaker 6: I was going to say, you did try that.
Speaker 1: You know, there are certain things that medically, you know,
Speaker 1: within my body, it just seemed impossible to solve. And
Speaker 1: you know, in a business meeting, we would always debrief
Speaker 1: and work out what do we do best next time?
Speaker 1: And every single time with the clinic that we had
Speaker 1: a debriefing call. Even though the rounds of IBF had
Speaker 1: cost between ten and twelve thousand dollars each, the debriefing
Speaker 1: call then was like another one hundred and thirty dollars.
Speaker 1: I'm like, you do not just throw that in as
Speaker 1: a value had And it always took you know, two
Speaker 1: to four minutes, and it was just like you're on
Speaker 1: the right track, you know, just keep going. So that
Speaker 1: I found extraordinarily frustrating because you know, as a business
Speaker 1: person and someone who wants to reverse engineer and you know,
Speaker 1: break everything apart and work out, well, why is it
Speaker 1: not working? Like, just tell me what I'll do and
Speaker 1: I'll do it. I don't care, like I'll which I did,
Speaker 1: you know, poo in a thing to the US and
Speaker 1: check it out and do this and do that, like
Speaker 1: whatever it is, inject myself for one hundred and eighty times,
Speaker 1: you know, swallow these tablets, climb on the roofs, down
Speaker 1: on my head, whatever it is, just tell me. So
Speaker 1: that was frustrating because in those briefing calls it was
Speaker 1: very much like, no, you're doing really well. And I'm
Speaker 1: someone who, as is said, we like to learn and
Speaker 1: we like to have data and explanations so we can
Speaker 1: do better and be better, and so it was like, well, okay,
Speaker 1: thank you, and there was not much to go on.
Speaker 1: So that was very frustrating.
Speaker 3: I always found, even in like a much much more
Speaker 3: condensed version of what you went through, that it was
Speaker 3: the first time ever in my life I'd had to
Speaker 3: accept that I could do all the right things, everything right.
Speaker 3: Every single thing that is possible to control I had
Speaker 3: controlled to the best of my ability, and still just
Speaker 3: some months you didn't get a result. Like it was
Speaker 3: just the most frustrating thing because we're so used to
Speaker 3: our effort equally output, and there was just no output.
Speaker 3: So before we do move on to the actual surrogacy
Speaker 3: process and the mechanics of it, to anyone who I
Speaker 3: think you often hear the story in reverse. You hear
Speaker 3: like even the way I tell my story is now
Speaker 3: I have Teddy, so you kind of hear with the
Speaker 3: happy ending. And even with my mum's story, she also
Speaker 3: went through an extraordinary amount of IVF before adopting us,
Speaker 3: And so we all have a beautiful happy ending at
Speaker 3: the end. But for those who haven't sort of got
Speaker 3: their happy ending in that bit where you just don't
Speaker 3: know how enduring it's going to be, what does keep
Speaker 3: you going? Like, what would you say to someone who's
Speaker 3: sort of still in those earlier days, Because I feel
Speaker 3: like there will be a lot of listeners who are
Speaker 3: listening because that's where they are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and sorry, sayh Meg, we will come to you.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's the Lisa Show out of my mind.
Speaker 1: There's a whole lot of stuff. And also, interestingly, since
Speaker 1: the book The Power Two has come out, it's also
Speaker 1: brought out a whole lot of triggers and stuff because
Speaker 1: you know, we've been rashing it and sharing it and everything.
Speaker 1: It's kind of brought up the whole journey again, which
Speaker 1: I think is probably good in terms of helping other
Speaker 1: people and feeling back into the feelings. But for me, yeah,
Speaker 1: I do have my happy ending, and so I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, please let those eight years will be dolune.
Speaker 1: I just want to focus on this beautiful baby in
Speaker 1: front of me. But for anyone who's still in the trenches,
Speaker 1: I'm very aware that I only talk about my own
Speaker 1: experiences because there's nothing worse than people being like, oh,
Speaker 1: why don't you just try and relax more? Or I
Speaker 1: did this, And sometimes that's useful to kind of go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe they're little threads that I could follow, But also
Speaker 1: sometimes you just want to scream because you're like, I know,
Speaker 1: I've tried that fifteen mimes. So I think what I
Speaker 1: would say is that what kept me going to be honest,
Speaker 1: in a way, it was probably Stephen because he just
Speaker 1: kept really wanting a baby and just kept saying, come on,
Speaker 1: we can do this, and so I just kind of
Speaker 1: kept leaning into whatever. I don't know if I would
Speaker 1: have given up earlier. What I would say is this, though,
Speaker 1: actually the most useful thing for other people is I
Speaker 1: think it's like little semblances of hope and creating little
Speaker 1: things to look forward to. So for me, what that
Speaker 1: meant was just changing things up a little bit, and
Speaker 1: that's probably actually the most useful thing I can say
Speaker 1: to anyone, because when I was trying the same thing
Speaker 1: over and over again and being told by the clinic, oh,
Speaker 1: just keep going. But it was when someone else, actually,
Speaker 1: when i'm thinking back to it, suggested a little something
Speaker 1: like at some one point I started going to a
Speaker 1: Chinese herbalist, and you know, people had said acupuncture is great,
Speaker 1: so then I went on to Okay, I'll do it.
Speaker 1: I was doing acupuncture two or three times a week,
Speaker 1: every week and taking up to ninety tablets a day,
Speaker 1: which sounds crazy. Fifty of them were these tiny, tiny
Speaker 1: little bullets that you just check down at once. But
Speaker 1: you know, I think, actually it's again about people's readiness
Speaker 1: and what information they want to take in. But I
Speaker 1: think it was those things sometimes gave me the hope
Speaker 1: and so I was like, oh I try that, Yep,
Speaker 1: this will be the answer. Or you know, when we
Speaker 1: tried different protocols like you know, swapping over, I don't know,
Speaker 1: various different things that we did. I think that gave
Speaker 1: me some more hope because I was like, oh, that
Speaker 1: can do it. So I think when you've got new
Speaker 1: next steps, it opens up the ability. Like I think
Speaker 1: if i'd just done eighteen rounds of IVF doing the
Speaker 1: exact same protocol without introducing anything new or trying anything new.
Speaker 1: I might have given up the way before, but as
Speaker 1: we talk about in the book, there was just so
Speaker 1: many different things, yeah, to the point where I actually,
Speaker 1: I mean, this is irrelevant. And we didn't talk about
Speaker 1: this in the book, but like Steven and I went
Speaker 1: to one crazy naturopath that charged nine dollars a minute,
Speaker 1: while and Stephen used to exist purely on like kale
Speaker 1: and mung beans and you know, like the healthiest person
Speaker 1: on the entire planet. And we both did all these tests,
Speaker 1: which included like doing a protest and sending it off
Speaker 1: to America, all these things. Right, Anyway, the funny thing is,
Speaker 1: and this is the ridiculousness of it, my results came
Speaker 1: back like absolutely squeaky clean, and I wasn't eating particularly
Speaker 1: well and I was all over the shop and he
Speaker 1: was like and I couldn't stop laughing because I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, you're like the healthiest person I know.
Speaker 1: And he had like all these red lines on his
Speaker 1: So you just got to keep trying different things, I think,
Speaker 1: and work out what works for you, work out what
Speaker 1: information you're open to I know a lot of times
Speaker 1: when I was ready for help, I'd be like, yes,
Speaker 1: can you share something with me? But other times I'd
Speaker 1: be like, just today or this week or this month,
Speaker 1: I'm just not open to anything. I've probably tried it
Speaker 1: and I just need to hold my protect my energy.
Speaker 3: I think I love that you said the readiness to
Speaker 3: hear it, because I also think that with different pathways,
Speaker 3: like you're the most beautiful example of and I think
Speaker 3: I'm also an example of the fact that there are
Speaker 3: many different pathways to a family and DNA and blood
Speaker 3: and natural birth is but one of many. But unless
Speaker 3: you've had exposure to it, like to me when we
Speaker 3: were trying, I sort of thought, adoption is so not
Speaker 3: foreign to me. It's been around me at my husband's
Speaker 3: My mother in law was adopted as well, so both
Speaker 3: sides it's quite common, which means the more you talk
Speaker 3: about it, the less foreign these things are. And I
Speaker 3: think this is why you guys are so amazing, is
Speaker 3: because no one has really spoken about saragus before, even
Speaker 3: as an option.
Speaker 6: So what I would love to ask you.
Speaker 3: Sarah, is the very very beginning idea, was you kind
Speaker 3: of throwing away a comment of if you need a surrogate,
Speaker 3: you know, let me know. Is that because you had
Speaker 3: had exposure to sarrogasy before, did you know how it worked?
Speaker 3: Or was it just literally a random idea.
Speaker 5: No exposure to anything. All I had to had was
Speaker 5: really easy pregnancies. Myself, this idea had always been fascinated
Speaker 5: in sarrogacy, but my own exposure to it had been overseas,
Speaker 5: like seeing people on Oprah talking about how they used
Speaker 5: a sarrogate, or just seeing you know, reading articles in
Speaker 5: magazines and stuff. I really didn't know much about it
Speaker 5: at all. I had tried years ago just to like
Speaker 5: google it and see, like is there an agency you
Speaker 5: can register with in And it's really.
Speaker 4: Really hard in Australia. It's so such a black hole.
Speaker 4: There's like hardly and information about it.
Speaker 5: And so I had just always thought, years ago, like
Speaker 5: a decade ago, when the first thought popped into my mind,
Speaker 5: I thought, if the right circumstance came up, you know,
Speaker 5: I'd love to do that. It was something i'd talked
Speaker 5: about with my husband, like I reckon I could be
Speaker 5: a surrogate one day, and I'd love to do this
Speaker 5: for someone one day. So It wasn't a surprise to
Speaker 5: him when I came to him and said I wanted
Speaker 5: to do this for Lisa. We talked about it, no way.
Speaker 4: It wasn't like.
Speaker 5: I had gone, oh, my sister needs a baby, so
Speaker 5: I'm going to do this. It was just like this
Speaker 5: idea of something I could do one day, and then
Speaker 5: when I was talking to Lisa and she's like, oh,
Speaker 5: we're starting IVF, it's not going so well.
Speaker 4: And I just wasn't even thinking. I was like, oh, well, if.
Speaker 5: You need a surrogate, you know, I'm usually But it
Speaker 5: was actually at the beginning of her journey shows only
Speaker 5: maybe like three rounds in. When I say only, my gosh,
Speaker 5: three rounds is a lot of rounds for a lot
Speaker 5: of people that you know, the end of the journey.
Speaker 5: But for now we know that Lisa had such a
Speaker 5: long road. She was only three rounds in at the time,
Speaker 5: and so that wasn't really an option for her then.
Speaker 4: And I must admit I just kind of threw it
Speaker 4: out there. I didn't know anything.
Speaker 5: About what it would involve or what the I knew nothing.
Speaker 5: I knew nothing, so I was just like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 5: you know, sure, let's do it. The same way that
Speaker 5: like you're chatting with friends and they go, we should
Speaker 5: go to Bali one day.
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 5: Let's go to girls trip. Like I was just like, yeah,
Speaker 5: that sounds great, we could do it. So I kind
Speaker 5: of I threw it out there, and then we just
Speaker 5: didn't talk about it again. It was like she was like, oh,
Speaker 5: that's so kind of you, but you know, we're still
Speaker 5: early stages and whatever, and then.
Speaker 4: We didn't talk about it again. And then I went
Speaker 4: and had.
Speaker 5: I had hernias with my pregnancies and I had diastysprecty,
Speaker 5: so my abs were really separated and the hernia was
Speaker 5: starting to become really painful, and my GP said, look,
Speaker 5: you're either going to need to go get it operated
Speaker 5: on or it will burst and then you'll be getting
Speaker 5: the operation in an emergency setting. So like, either way
Speaker 5: you're getting an operation, it's just a matter of when
Speaker 5: you want to do it.
Speaker 4: And he's like, if you.
Speaker 5: If you wait and it explodes and you're in surgery
Speaker 5: an emergency, you might get someone who's only done three
Speaker 5: of these before in their life.
Speaker 4: Or if you go and proactively get it taken care of,
Speaker 4: you can.
Speaker 5: Get a specialist and I was like, well, that sounds
Speaker 5: like a better way to do it.
Speaker 4: So I went and got all that repaired.
Speaker 5: And my surgeon at the time, excuse me, He said, like,
Speaker 5: you're finished having babies, because once we put you all
Speaker 5: back together, we don't want to, you know, stress that
Speaker 5: area out again.
Speaker 4: And I was like, no, no, we're done. And like
Speaker 4: in the back of.
Speaker 5: My mind, I thought, oh, I threw that out to Lisa,
Speaker 5: but she never like picked up on it, Like we
Speaker 5: never talked about it again, so that's probably not going
Speaker 5: to happen.
Speaker 4: So off I went got my surgery until we did.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, it is like, you know all those
Speaker 3: memes about how the girls, you know, trip to Europe
Speaker 3: has made it out of the group chat. For you guys,
Speaker 3: it's like a baby made it out of the group chat.
Speaker 3: I mean, I said to you guys before he started recording.
Speaker 3: It's the second time I've read the book, even having
Speaker 3: already known the story, just because I know Lisa and
Speaker 3: it just I've always been such a big believer that
Speaker 3: the universe works things out, the timing, the way ideas circulate,
Speaker 3: like things conspire to make things happen, and I believe
Speaker 3: that our first loss was because Teddy was waiting and
Speaker 3: he just wasn't ready then. And now it all makes sense,
Speaker 3: and I kind of feel like Hugo was just waiting.
Speaker 3: He was waiting for all of those things, yea, and
Speaker 3: it took you know, he was like these eight years,
Speaker 3: I'm not ready yet, Like You're gonna have to wait, mum,
Speaker 3: because I'm in the stars and I.
Speaker 2: Need Sarah to drop this email, and like these things.
Speaker 3: Need to happen, and it all worked out, which is
Speaker 3: It gives me goosebumps to think of how many things
Speaker 3: had to go right at the right time for this
Speaker 3: idea to circulate. And I hope that maybe someone listening
Speaker 3: to this finds some nugget of the process of something
Speaker 3: that opens their mind to something that also is part of,
Speaker 3: you know, the fabric that makes up their own journey.
Speaker 2: Why.
Speaker 3: I think it is truly remarkable how much you guys share.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I also have goosebumps all of my entire body,
Speaker 1: and you probably feel this with Teddy. But like I
Speaker 1: do think about it often, Sarah and Sarah because I
Speaker 1: look at you and I go, oh my gosh, imagine
Speaker 1: if I hadn't been successful before I wouldn't have Hugo like,
Speaker 1: and he's just so oh, I get so my show like,
Speaker 1: he's so perfect. I am so in love with him.
Speaker 1: We are so connected, it's like we're the same person.
Speaker 1: It's wild on so many levels. And so yeah, I
Speaker 1: do think that's hopefully another piece for anyone out there
Speaker 1: trying still in the trenches, just you know, hang on
Speaker 1: to that string of possibility and we can get into
Speaker 1: this as much in as much detail as you want.
Speaker 1: But as you said, I do share the finances and things,
Speaker 1: and that's always been something I've done since I watched
Speaker 1: the magazine in twenty thirteen. I was always like, the
Speaker 1: story behind the story. We're a real relatable, attainable and
Speaker 1: if I'm not talking about it, then is it? You know.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's my duty, that's what I've put
Speaker 1: out into the world, to actually explain it all. And
Speaker 1: if you don't put all the pieces in, then a
Speaker 1: lot of people are left shaking their head or scratching
Speaker 1: their head and going but why, but why? But how
Speaker 1: about how? And I've always wanted to really help to
Speaker 1: take that away and make things much more easy to understand.
Speaker 1: And I think you can only do that with all
Speaker 1: of the detail, but the financial piece. We had a
Speaker 1: review a couple of days ago, a beautiful review, but
Speaker 1: it triggered me a little bit because she was like,
Speaker 1: of course, you know, Lisa and Sarah are beautiful in
Speaker 1: the book, and because they talk all about, you know,
Speaker 1: the privilege that they have, it always makes me feel
Speaker 1: a bit like, you know, because yes, I have privileged
Speaker 1: depending on how you look at it, in that I
Speaker 1: had the resources, mostly being money, to be able to
Speaker 1: do this, and I do understand that a lot of
Speaker 1: people are not in that position. And I do hope,
Speaker 1: you know, through what Sarah and I are putting out there,
Speaker 1: that you know, there becomes some regulatory changes and things
Speaker 1: so that it becomes more accessible, because you know, there
Speaker 1: is so many fertility issues and they seem to be
Speaker 1: sadly becoming more prevalent. So I do hope. So, I mean,
Speaker 1: I met a woman recently who had saved for ten
Speaker 1: years to have one round of IBF, and luckily she
Speaker 1: was fortunate to have her child. But I do know that.
Speaker 1: But the thing about privilege, it kind of well in
Speaker 1: the book, I talk a lot about it, you know,
Speaker 1: part of the reason I beat myself up and people
Speaker 1: were like, well, of course you can't get pregnant, because
Speaker 1: the irony was I had to keep trembling the world
Speaker 1: doing what I do, Like the biggest piece of my
Speaker 1: money is jumping on stages and speaking, and I needed
Speaker 1: to do that in order to pay for the IVF.
Speaker 1: So yeah, anyway, and that's the whole thing. But yes,
Speaker 1: I understand we were in a position to be able
Speaker 1: to do it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think it's also yes, you're right that
Speaker 3: it does depend how you look on it, because at
Speaker 3: the same time, you know, one of the so you
Speaker 3: talk about is the four hundred thousand US dollars that
Speaker 3: goes into an agency, but that it wasn't without sacrifice.
Speaker 3: I mean, you had to sell your house to fund that.
Speaker 3: So yes, your privileged in that you had a house
Speaker 3: to sell to do that, but it didn't not cost
Speaker 3: you things that you had worked for in order to
Speaker 3: you know, it wasn't just sitting there sort of you
Speaker 3: were rolling in money, you know.
Speaker 1: And actually another point around that, which is a full circle,
Speaker 1: which I've never talked about really, but probably part of
Speaker 1: the reason, I mean, the whole irony of this whole thing,
Speaker 1: I have had my own businesses for twenty three and
Speaker 1: a half years, and my business was my identity and
Speaker 1: my everything, right, so I almost forgot to have a baby.
Speaker 1: So it's because I hustled my ass off for twenty
Speaker 1: three years and probably almost sacrificed the ability to have
Speaker 1: a baby, that I actually had the finances to be
Speaker 1: able to pay for the baby. I would suggest people
Speaker 1: maybe stop hustling their ass off a little earlier than me,
Speaker 1: and maybe they wouldn't have to put all the money
Speaker 1: that they for twenty three years into trying to have
Speaker 1: a baby.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh my gosh. I mean again, it's so funny
Speaker 3: how it works out. And again maybe it all inspired
Speaker 3: because you were meant to have Hugo. And that's what
Speaker 3: my mom has also always drilled into me because she
Speaker 3: went through I mean very primitive IVF, like Monash IVF
Speaker 3: when it first started. So she's got like immense hormonal issue,
Speaker 3: like lifelong issues from how kind of early stage it was.
Speaker 3: But she still says to this day it's because she
Speaker 3: was like I was.
Speaker 2: Waiting for her.
Speaker 3: And one thing that I also love about your book
Speaker 3: is it does remind I think we have this fascination.
Speaker 3: I mean, there's a whole chapter in the book on
Speaker 3: how the first question for everybody is whose DNA is it? Like,
Speaker 3: as if that's the most important thing. But what I
Speaker 3: think is really beautiful is not only did things happen
Speaker 3: like your left breast started producing milk, Lisa, but also
Speaker 3: that like when I go out with Mum, I'm fully Asian,
Speaker 3: she's fully Caucasian, and no one can't tell immediately that
Speaker 3: where mother and daughter, like we have body language things
Speaker 3: people say like, oh, you've the same smile or the
Speaker 3: same face shape or whatever, and there's no sort of
Speaker 3: question about it. And you say now that there's so
Speaker 3: many things about Hugo where people are like, oh, he's
Speaker 3: got your whatever it is. And it's just funny that
Speaker 3: we've beenly preoccupied with DNA being the only way that
Speaker 3: you can be related, and yet all around us there
Speaker 3: are these bonds of family that aren't based on that,
Speaker 3: And I think it's just interesting how that is the
Speaker 3: first question. Probably most people listening will be waiting to hear, like,
Speaker 3: who's DUNO was it? As if that's the most important thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So just to cover off on that for anyone
Speaker 1: who hasn't read the book yet, spoiler Alette, Hugo is
Speaker 1: not my Danna, And that was a big point that
Speaker 1: Sarah and I, I mean, we did months of like
Speaker 1: back and forwards on that, because it's funny whenever we said, oh,
Speaker 1: I've got a sorry get carrying Hugo, but I would
Speaker 1: always language it like I'm pregnant. So there's a lot
Speaker 1: around that but kind of shockingly. But I don't think
Speaker 1: anyone meant anything buy it. I think that's just a fascination.
Speaker 1: But every single time people would say, oh, is it
Speaker 1: your eg and every time I was like, it was
Speaker 1: really jarring and triggering for me, and so like sometimes
Speaker 1: I would lie and like I just was like and
Speaker 1: it always it often took away from the after I'd
Speaker 1: said I'm pregnant and then to be like straight on
Speaker 1: my way met with that. But no know, it took
Speaker 1: me quite a lot of therapy to get through that,
Speaker 1: to be like do I feel less bad? Or like
Speaker 1: why is that triggering me? But now that Hugo's here,
Speaker 1: oh and sayah, you know really said to me, which
Speaker 1: I agree with, you know, to round it out properly
Speaker 1: and for people to truly understand what is possible if
Speaker 1: I left that piece out yet talked about all the
Speaker 1: other roads to Hugo. Then it would have been a
Speaker 1: bit disingenuous, and it wouldn't have necessarily because speaking of hope,
Speaker 1: that's when I had the piece of hope, right. It
Speaker 1: was when I had done it. I've just got she
Speaker 1: was again when I went for some reason outside of
Speaker 1: my normal clinic for a day to do a scan
Speaker 1: and this woman was like, ah, I have women in
Speaker 1: here all the time that used dinner eggs and they're
Speaker 1: like getting pregnant all over the place. Kind to me,
Speaker 1: and I just walked out of there and I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh. Right, But like the readiness, I wasn't
Speaker 1: ready before. I always thought, A, oh, carry my own baby,
Speaker 1: and then b no, of course it's going to be
Speaker 1: my egg. And then you know, I got to your
Speaker 1: point where it was like, oh my god, of course, yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: And then it was just catching Stephen up because his
Speaker 1: readiness came understanding different phases. But you know what there
Speaker 1: is and you, you said, Davidson, understand this completely with
Speaker 1: your mama bear. I mean, there is not a question
Speaker 1: on the planet that Hugo is not unnervely every single
Speaker 1: bit my child and the crazy thing with us is
Speaker 1: and this might trigger you, and I'm sorry if it does.
Speaker 1: We look identical like when we were babies, which is wild.
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's so many things it's quite crazy. So yes,
Speaker 1: that is the piece that we decided to talk about.
Speaker 5: Well, And just to add on to that, Lisa and
Speaker 5: I talked about it a lot because it was obviously
Speaker 5: a really sensitive chapter for her. But I said, you
Speaker 5: can't tell a story like this and give people hope
Speaker 5: because a lot of the people reading this book are
Speaker 5: trying to have the hope that they'll be able to
Speaker 5: have their happy ending in their family. And I said,
Speaker 5: you can't do that and not share that piece, because
Speaker 5: then you're encouraging people to keep going down the path
Speaker 5: you went down sixteen times with no result, And that
Speaker 5: just was not not something we wanted to do. We
Speaker 5: really want to help people see what the options are
Speaker 5: when you do broaden it out a little bit and go,
Speaker 5: what's the goal. The goal is to have a family,
Speaker 5: so let's look at every opportunity we can to make
Speaker 5: that happen.
Speaker 1: I had lunch with them another woman who had a
Speaker 1: sorry to carry her baby the other day, which was
Speaker 1: just so beautiful. And the funny thing is she said oh,
Speaker 1: but she was very adamant. She was like, oh, but
Speaker 1: he's my DNA, you know, like and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: they didn't even whatever, you know. And as I was
Speaker 1: leaving about three hours later, I'm going to cry, she
Speaker 1: said to me, I have to tell you something. He's
Speaker 1: not my DNA, because I'd said to her, you guys,
Speaker 1: you know Ukrainian egg. And then because I'd done that, right,
Speaker 1: I think she just came out and said and we
Speaker 1: both had this like just moment, and I was like,
Speaker 1: thank you for showing and she was like, I really
Speaker 1: needed to tell you that because you've been so honest,
Speaker 1: and you know, he's just such my child. And I
Speaker 1: get very emotional, and I think it is because of
Speaker 1: this talking about the hard things. Sometimes it does help
Speaker 1: other people, and it gives them permission, and it gives
Speaker 1: people hope, and it gives a sisterhood bond and all
Speaker 1: of the things, you know.
Speaker 5: And g It is also so crazy when people ask
Speaker 5: those questions, like when people say, oh, is it your
Speaker 5: egg or whatever, it's really for most people just to
Speaker 5: throw away question out of fascination. It doesn't change anyone
Speaker 5: else's view. Like the people that I've talked to about
Speaker 5: it and things, they don't go ask oh, so they
Speaker 5: usually ask me, is it any of it yours? You know?
Speaker 5: That was the other thing, the other reason why I
Speaker 5: said to Lisa, we have to be really clear in
Speaker 5: the book, like what the genetics are, because I want
Speaker 5: it to be really clear that it's not a sibling
Speaker 5: genetically to my children, just so that you know, clarity
Speaker 5: around the whole.
Speaker 4: Process of it.
Speaker 5: And people would say to me, is it your egg?
Speaker 5: And I'd say no, it's none of my genetic material.
Speaker 5: Oh is it her egg then?
Speaker 4: And I'd say no, it's a donor egg and they're like, oh, okay, cool.
Speaker 2: So how does that work?
Speaker 4: Like that's the end of it.
Speaker 5: And so Lisa, when you talk about that other mother,
Speaker 5: like she obviously has so many feelings around that. Other
Speaker 5: people are not judging it, like we're all just excited
Speaker 5: for you that you've got a baby. Noone else is
Speaker 5: worrying about it to the level we worry about our
Speaker 5: own stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's the conversation. There are so
Speaker 1: many beautiful ways to you know, I would adopt another
Speaker 1: twenty or you know, foster, which the cards I just want.
Speaker 3: I think, so that's a really great point, that there
Speaker 3: is just a lot of curiosity, Like there's either curiosity
Speaker 3: from people who are never going to be considering surrogacy
Speaker 3: or adoption for themselves. Like a lot of people ask
Speaker 3: if I want to find my biological parents, and it's
Speaker 3: not because they have biological parents, like it's just a question.
Speaker 3: They're just really interested, And I think you can tell
Speaker 3: when it's not loaded with any emotional criticism, they just
Speaker 3: I think it's one of those areas where often the linguistics,
Speaker 3: like the language that's used can trigger people who are
Speaker 3: emotionally involved, but from people who aren't, they just accidentally
Speaker 3: use the wrong words because they've because we don't talk
Speaker 3: about it enough, Which is why I really like that
Speaker 3: you guys not only spoke at length about the emotional
Speaker 3: side to prepare anyone going through it that it is
Speaker 3: a very very emotionally charged and complex area, but you
Speaker 3: also go through the non emotional logistics for curiosity's sake,
Speaker 3: So you talk about like legally, what did you have
Speaker 3: to do the wording? Like sayah, I think one of
Speaker 3: your chapters was how we're going to word this is it?
Speaker 3: It's your pregnancy Lisa's baby, and suddenly that helps you,
Speaker 3: guys with your boundaries, Like you need to have a
Speaker 3: non emotional side of curiosity questions as well. So maybe Sarah,
Speaker 3: can you lay out sort of the mechanics of once
Speaker 3: you guys decided that you were going to do this,
Speaker 3: how did you work out sort of who decides what
Speaker 3: you eat during pregnancy and who goes to what appointments?
Speaker 3: And how do the costs work and deciding your birth
Speaker 3: plan and you know, all of those kind of like
Speaker 3: how did you work out the phone logistic? You know,
Speaker 3: like all of those things, Like suddenly you've got to
Speaker 3: decide because this is a beautiful family of four bringing
Speaker 3: like a fifth member in you know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean the logistics were crazy because you've got
Speaker 5: four parents who are you know, me and my husband
Speaker 5: and Lisa and Stephen. All of us have our own
Speaker 5: busy careers and lives, and for us, we had three
Speaker 5: kids as well, and we're trying to fit in this pregnancy.
Speaker 4: So it was crazy.
Speaker 5: And we go into heaps of detail in the book
Speaker 5: about all of those specific logistics and the money and
Speaker 5: the decisions and the contracts and all that stuff, and
Speaker 5: I think really we approached it like one of Lisa's
Speaker 5: superpowers is to find that glimmer of hope and possibility
Speaker 5: and hold onto that, And that's like the approach we
Speaker 5: took for everything. So even at the very beginning, when
Speaker 5: I spoke to my surgeon and said, hey, I want
Speaker 5: to get pregnant.
Speaker 4: I want to have my friend's.
Speaker 5: Baby, and he was like, I said I want to
Speaker 5: get pregnant, and he was like, what are you talking about.
Speaker 5: I thought you had done with kids and I was like, no,
Speaker 5: I'm done, but I'd really like to be a surrogate
Speaker 5: for a friend.
Speaker 4: And he was like, oh okay. He's like, look, I'm
Speaker 4: not used to this.
Speaker 5: Like in the thousands of these surgeries I've done, we
Speaker 5: don't normally then have a baby afterwards. But he's like,
Speaker 5: let me go check it out and I'll come back
Speaker 5: to you. And when he came back, he didn't say like, yes,
Speaker 5: go ahead, you're all clear. He kind of said, look,
Speaker 5: you can do it. You can't have twins because that's
Speaker 5: way too risky, but you can do it. Just hope
Speaker 5: he's not too big, or hope the baby's not too big,
Speaker 5: and we'll get to the other side and see what
Speaker 5: damage there is, and we'll repair it and fix it then.
Speaker 5: And for a lot of people that's a no, you know,
Speaker 5: like for a lot of people that would be this
Speaker 5: is too risky. Like my surgeon basically said that there's
Speaker 5: a risk of damage, so we can't really move forward.
Speaker 5: But I saw, Oh, so you're telling me there's a
Speaker 5: chance there's a chance that I could get pregnant and
Speaker 5: it could be fine. So that's the chance we're holding
Speaker 5: on too. And I think that's Lisa's approach to everything,
Speaker 5: like look through all the weeds and the muck for
Speaker 5: the where's that little jew drop of sunshine that says
Speaker 5: we can do this? So that's what we did through
Speaker 5: the whole pregnancy. And there were honestly a lot of
Speaker 5: hard conversations we didn't have. Like we knew at the
Speaker 5: beginning that I couldn't have twins, but we didn't talk
Speaker 5: about what that would mean. Like we knew both of
Speaker 5: us knew if we get pregnant with twins, we're gonna
Speaker 5: have to reduce one. I'm getting like goosebumps now at
Speaker 5: how horrible that would have been. Yeah, but we just
Speaker 5: really didn't like plot the what ifs of the negative
Speaker 5: out until each one happened, until a situation happened. So
Speaker 5: it was an enormous amount of trust, particularly for Lisa
Speaker 5: because I was the one carrying a baby, but also
Speaker 5: they could have been curly sity tuations because it was
Speaker 5: their child, right, So if we did get to a
Speaker 5: point and you know, the thing about anyone who's who's
Speaker 5: been pregnant before knows there's no definitive diagnoses in pregnancy.
Speaker 5: Usually it's usually all a numbers game.
Speaker 2: So you get the.
Speaker 5: All the testing and stuff, and they'll go there's a
Speaker 5: chance of this, So you know, they could have been
Speaker 5: a chance of you might have an abnormality. Those questions
Speaker 5: where they say do you want to continue with the
Speaker 5: pregnancy or not, we would have had to make those
Speaker 5: decisions as four and like their baby my uterus, there
Speaker 5: just could have been so much complexity, but we really
Speaker 5: just chose to approach it all really optimistically. We had
Speaker 5: the most incredible obstetrician who held her hand with so
Speaker 5: much grace and compassion and just walked us through everything,
Speaker 5: and we were so supported with him. So I think
Speaker 5: between the group of us, we just were able to
Speaker 5: handle everything that came. And there was a lot of
Speaker 5: complexity through it. Even just one of the small things
Speaker 5: was that I had a higher risk of high blood
Speaker 5: pressure simply because it was not my genes. So when
Speaker 5: they did the risk profiling, they said, because it's not
Speaker 5: your genetic material, your body recognizes that and it kind
Speaker 5: of gets a little bit itchy and it raises your
Speaker 5: blood pressure, which then increases your risk of preaclamps here
Speaker 5: and all sorts of really dangerous potential conditions. So then
Speaker 5: I had to be on daily aspirin from like six
Speaker 5: weeks of pregnancy. So there were so many little things
Speaker 5: like that that came up, and we just chose at
Speaker 5: every step to be as optimistic as possible, face the
Speaker 5: facts head on when they're in front of us, but
Speaker 5: just really stay.
Speaker 4: Present and grounded in the moment.
Speaker 5: And I think we were all just so focused on
Speaker 5: the excitement of the baby, like what we're doing this
Speaker 5: for that that helped really keep us motivated.
Speaker 3: I think that's so beautiful for life generally, particularly fertility journeys,
Speaker 3: but life generally that we do spend an enormous amount
Speaker 3: of time worrying about situations that haven't actually happened yet,
Speaker 3: and like, sure, you need a bit of rainy day planning.
Speaker 3: But I think we sort of dwell in the like
Speaker 3: let's worry fifty five steps ahea head when you're kind
Speaker 3: of just bringing about more negativity than is necessary. And
Speaker 3: I love that you just like you had enough things
Speaker 3: to think about. I mean, you guys are all working
Speaker 3: full time, You've got lives going on aside from trying
Speaker 3: to do this miracle that I love that you just
Speaker 3: you make a choice to kind of bring a certain
Speaker 3: attitude and approach towards something, and I think that does
Speaker 3: carry it through. And it wasn't all rosy, like I
Speaker 3: think I didn't know. I'd forgotten between the first reading
Speaker 3: and the second reading of the book that you actually
Speaker 3: had a chemical pregnancy first in this process, so you
Speaker 3: got pregnant and then it didn't go ahead, and all
Speaker 3: of you had to choose We're still going to try
Speaker 3: again after everything that you've been through. I mean that
Speaker 3: in itself is like the definition of optimism. And thank
Speaker 3: god you did, because every yes along the way resulted
Speaker 3: in HUGO. But I mean, yeah, the logistics of that,
Speaker 3: like least, for example, can you sort of talk through
Speaker 3: the I don't want to make you go too far
Speaker 3: into the sort of US experience, but just how in
Speaker 3: Australia it's altruistic. And then the legalities of like what
Speaker 3: are your obligations to Sarah and what was legally obliged?
Speaker 2: What did you choose to do.
Speaker 3: Like what is the framework that kind of guides you
Speaker 3: guys through that whole pregnancy and then birth, because I
Speaker 3: know the birth certificate was Sarah first and you have
Speaker 3: to change that immediately, like all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I won't going to the detail his but
Speaker 1: we did actually go down a path in the US
Speaker 1: which was going to cost about four hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: thousand dollars, of which about forty thousand only goes to
Speaker 1: the surrogate. So a lot of people make it a
Speaker 1: lot of money over there, and we had a really
Speaker 1: hideous experience. However, I have heard of people having, you know,
Speaker 1: amazing experiences. It was just not meant to be for us.
Speaker 1: So I think everything is relative, right, I say, Now, oh,
Speaker 1: Australia and having you know, this birth with Sarah was
Speaker 1: just like a breeze, I mean says absolutely right. There
Speaker 1: was a lot of hurdles and logistics and paperwork and things.
Speaker 1: I think everything in life is perspective readiness. It's situational
Speaker 1: and you know, dependent on you know, where you've come from.
Speaker 1: And because I've been through so much already, by the
Speaker 1: time we landed here, I was like, oh, this is
Speaker 1: a breeze. When I say it's a breeze to get
Speaker 1: to the point of you know, putting an embryor into
Speaker 1: Sarah basically means that it needed to be you know,
Speaker 1: someone's DNA. So whether it be my eggs as I
Speaker 1: had had them, you know, extracted many times before, I
Speaker 1: would have had to do that because we didn't end
Speaker 1: up using my eggs. Ultimately, we had to go through
Speaker 1: two rounds of IBF with a beautiful Ukrainian woman. When
Speaker 1: we were actually trying to do the collection in the Ukraine,
Speaker 1: it was actually COVID so we couldn't get the eggs out.
Speaker 1: And then it was like the war, so you know,
Speaker 1: you throw in a bit.
Speaker 3: Of a global politics and a pandemic, you know you
Speaker 3: can't plan for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So see that's why I'm saying it's relative because
Speaker 1: for me, by the time we decided to you know,
Speaker 1: go down the rut of surrogacye, we actually had embryos
Speaker 1: in the freezer. But to get the embryos, yeah, you
Speaker 1: need to extract eggs from somewhere. You know, Steven has
Speaker 1: to go and do his and then and then put
Speaker 1: them together and then they need to be implanted. In
Speaker 1: Australia it is autruistic, so you cannot pay anyone, and
Speaker 1: there's a lot of sort of Facebook groups and then
Speaker 1: I mean, this is another reason we want to shine
Speaker 1: a light on it. There's a lot of really sort
Speaker 1: of underground things I think going on in Australia where
Speaker 1: we've heard some terrible things about you know, mismatched people
Speaker 1: through dodgy Facebook groups and things like that. So there
Speaker 1: is something in a way to be said potentially for
Speaker 1: the agency. I just think maybe there's a slightly lesser
Speaker 1: model than the four hundred thousand dollars plus. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I think in Australia, you know, it is best and
Speaker 1: certainly Sarah and I would absolutely testify to this now
Speaker 1: that you undergo with someone who is a friend who
Speaker 1: you know you've both done quite a lot of therapy
Speaker 1: and you're able to have the hard conversations and really
Speaker 1: have extraordinary lines of communication, because I think that's really
Speaker 1: an absolute imperative and as Sarah and I have talked
Speaker 1: about as well, there probably needs to be a lot
Speaker 1: more psychology and therapy throughout. All that happened was essentially
Speaker 1: we had to have therapy as a foursome, so Sarah
Speaker 1: and David, Steven and I all together. We also had
Speaker 1: to have therapy separately each one of the four of
Speaker 1: us just to doubly check in on everything. And then
Speaker 1: we had to fill out some sort of psych tests
Speaker 1: and things. So that was at the beginning, just to
Speaker 1: make sure there's no anomalies that were all kind of
Speaker 1: on the same page. The therapist as some great questions
Speaker 1: which there has alluded to some around you know what
Speaker 1: happens if just to make sure that we'd actually thought about,
Speaker 1: you know, if the baby has done syndrome or if
Speaker 1: because all four of us could have had different kind
Speaker 1: of takes on it. So we sort of did some
Speaker 1: of the thinking up front. But I think both of
Speaker 1: us do think it would be useful to continue through
Speaker 1: with therapy and just really check in with all four
Speaker 1: parties throughout. And then there's the legals, so Sah and
Speaker 1: I both needed to have separate lawyers just to you know,
Speaker 1: go through I mean, I think it's just a lot
Speaker 1: of people getting paid a lot of money for I mean,
Speaker 1: this is your background background from way before, you know
Speaker 1: how the legal system works. So our lawyer was beautiful though,
Speaker 1: a beautiful, beautiful man who had also gone through surrogacy himself.
Speaker 1: And then we financially can cover anything that I would
Speaker 1: be doing myself, So any sort of maternity where or
Speaker 1: compression stockings or medical bills or you know, anything to
Speaker 1: do with that that I would be doing. Anyway, we
Speaker 1: can cover any and all of that for sair. But
Speaker 1: you're not allowed to really color too much outside of
Speaker 1: the lines. So that was that the birth certificate. Yes,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think Australia has a lot lot of
Speaker 1: catching up to do in terms of the bureaucracy and
Speaker 1: red tape. And says better talking about this because she's
Speaker 1: much more analytical white in this way. But essentially what
Speaker 1: I will say is we use Hugo's Medicare cards there
Speaker 1: for the first time today. He's eighteen months and two
Speaker 1: days old, and we had to take him for his
Speaker 1: eighteen month backs and like to have his actual Medicare card,
Speaker 1: which we didn't have until about a month ago, and
Speaker 1: we didn't have his birth until he was I think
Speaker 1: was it fourteen months? Thirteen months? Yeah, And in fact,
Speaker 1: after his first birthday we were still in the High
Speaker 1: Court second correction on any of this via zoom with
Speaker 1: me being questioned, I mean, it makes my blood boil,
Speaker 1: but by some sort of eighty year old gray headed
Speaker 1: man and bank slightly whatever, but pretty much who was saying,
Speaker 1: are you sure you tried hard enough to have a baby,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, hang on a minute, before they can
Speaker 1: hand over the proper parentage order or whatever to us,
Speaker 1: And I was like, hang on a minute. My child is,
Speaker 1: you know, thirteen months old. We've just had his first
Speaker 1: birthday party, and you're questioning now if I tried hard enough,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I don't know. So I do
Speaker 1: think there's somewhere between what's going on in the US
Speaker 1: and what's going on in Australia that we need to
Speaker 1: kind of bring the two slightly closer together in terms
Speaker 1: of eradicating some of the you know, bureaucracy and red
Speaker 1: tape and ridiculous lines of questioning, but also removing a
Speaker 1: lot of the barriers which are prohibitive in the US
Speaker 1: in terms of the monetary side of it. Is kind
Speaker 1: of so over the top and ridiculous and really reserve
Speaker 1: for you know this, who can't be bothered to carry
Speaker 1: their own baby or whatever it is, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of the time. So I think we need to
Speaker 1: bring it together a lot more.
Speaker 5: And I think for added context there the process that
Speaker 5: we all went through, Like with that court that Lisa's
Speaker 5: talking about. These are not judges who are used to surrogates.
Speaker 5: There's only one hundred surrogate bursts in Australia a year.
Speaker 5: So that court, with that judge, that is a family
Speaker 5: court that is designed to deal with like the most
Speaker 5: complex and difficult custody cases. So even though I can
Speaker 5: I can understand why Lisa was so like triggered by
Speaker 5: the line of questioning that's such an important part of
Speaker 5: like that process because he's normally sitting there going right,
Speaker 5: So the mom is doing, what the dad is doing?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 4: Why am I here? Why am I in court? Why
Speaker 4: are we looking at this? So even though to him
Speaker 4: he was just stating the facts.
Speaker 5: Okay, so the mum has done sixteen rounds, Okay, So
Speaker 5: he's just like literally slicing Lisa's heart.
Speaker 4: Open in the court.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but I actually am fully in support of that,
Speaker 5: because this is the mechanism that supports and protects children
Speaker 5: who are in these really difficult, difficult situations. So that's
Speaker 5: another part of where there's I guess the sensitivity is
Speaker 5: missing because he just walked in that morning, Lisa was
Speaker 5: one of you know, twenty cases. He's hearing and he's
Speaker 5: just going through the facts, but she wasn't expecting, you know,
Speaker 5: I'm going to get my son is legally going to
Speaker 5: be recognized as my son today, And instead it's like
Speaker 5: this whole nother tranch of like what was it?
Speaker 4: What did you go through? Again? Oh, we're just going
Speaker 4: to lay it all out again.
Speaker 5: Like there's so many parts of this journey that can
Speaker 5: be reactivating, I guess, and takes a lot to get
Speaker 5: through it all.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think the more or the less uncommon
Speaker 3: it becomes, and particularly as there are like so so
Speaker 3: many fertility challenging fertility journeys where people haven't ended up
Speaker 3: in adoption or sorry, I guess he purely because they
Speaker 3: don't actually know how you can do it, or they
Speaker 3: do start as you did with adoption, Lise, and it
Speaker 3: was too difficult. Like the barriers are absolutely outrageous considering
Speaker 3: how many matches of desperate families who are desperate for
Speaker 3: children and children who desperately need homes, like the mismarriage
Speaker 3: is just so frustrating to see sometimes. But yeah, I
Speaker 3: mean for anyone who does who is more interested in
Speaker 3: the logistics, the Lisa and there in the book just
Speaker 3: give so much detail.
Speaker 2: But just now that.
Speaker 3: We've cut, like outside of the logistics, I would love
Speaker 3: to ask, and only if you're comfortable talking about it,
Speaker 3: because I know it does bring it all up again,
Speaker 3: But just emotionally, I think my fascination personally is in
Speaker 3: how things do transcend DNA. So Lise, I would love
Speaker 3: to talk to you about did you feel pregnant during
Speaker 3: the pregnancy and what did the moment of birth kind
Speaker 3: of feel like? And sayah, also, how did having had
Speaker 3: three pregnancies where you did have a genetic match physiologically
Speaker 3: and emotionally, what it felt like caring for someone else
Speaker 3: and how your interaction like with your body and your
Speaker 3: brain through the pregnancy was going and same at the
Speaker 3: moment of birth, Like what was it like for four
Speaker 3: of you being involved?
Speaker 6: Was it similar different?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 3: Yeah, what did what did you guys feel kind of.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's such a big question.
Speaker 5: But the sparknized version, Yeah, for anyone who loves the
Speaker 5: birth story, we give like the full blow by blow
Speaker 5: in the book.
Speaker 6: I love Oh, I loved it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I love it when people share their stories.
Speaker 4: But we've got all the full details in there. But yeah,
Speaker 4: a big question.
Speaker 5: I think I hoped going into this that I would
Speaker 5: have a really healthy level of disconnection to the pregnancy.
Speaker 5: And I know that's like quite a strong word, but
Speaker 5: I was really hoping I wouldn't become super attached to
Speaker 5: this baby, and I'm thankful that's exactly what happened. I
Speaker 5: was always really protective of him and really like connected
Speaker 5: to what we were doing. But I never felt like
Speaker 5: his mum ever. It never felt like it was my baby.
Speaker 5: I was never I was never like thinking. And I
Speaker 5: think one of the big things is though, like when
Speaker 5: you're having a baby, you're thinking ahead to like the
Speaker 5: first Christmas, and you're thinking of other milestones. When I
Speaker 5: was pregnant with my son Jesse, I would be thinking of, like, oh,
Speaker 5: he's due in January. That's the same month my eldest
Speaker 5: was starting preschool, and so I was like imagining, oh
Speaker 5: my gosh, I'm going to be carrying like a tiny
Speaker 5: little baby into her first day of school, and you're
Speaker 5: imagining your future with this child.
Speaker 4: And I was never doing that.
Speaker 5: I was imagining him being born and then just going
Speaker 5: back to my life. So that created an instant and
Speaker 5: healthy boundary, so that it was just a beautiful pregnancy.
Speaker 5: I think pregnancy is miraculous, like.
Speaker 4: The process of it.
Speaker 5: I just don't understand how it starts as a microscopic
Speaker 5: cell and becomes a human.
Speaker 4: So I'm always I still.
Speaker 2: Think about that every day.
Speaker 6: Yeah, just wild.
Speaker 5: So I was always really just at the whole time,
Speaker 5: I just was like, what a miracle this is, Like
Speaker 5: I'm carrying this baby for my friends, Like what.
Speaker 4: An extraordinary thing to be part of.
Speaker 5: I just always felt really like blessed about it the
Speaker 5: whole time.
Speaker 4: It was amazing.
Speaker 3: And I love that you did include like the hormonal
Speaker 3: let down kind of immediately after birth, that you did
Speaker 3: give yourself time and a few days to kind of
Speaker 3: you know, your body has evacuated a human, so of
Speaker 3: course it's going to be sort of.
Speaker 6: Like whoa, whoa.
Speaker 3: But I love that you were also able to keep
Speaker 3: this umbrella of like, I know what I'm doing here,
Speaker 3: and we're all doing this together, and this is my role.
Speaker 3: I'm not ye creating kind of the future memories. At least,
Speaker 3: did you feel pregnant, because I know you. You would
Speaker 3: say like, I'm pregnant, you know, and I'm having a baby,
Speaker 3: and like your body did things like what the hell?
Speaker 1: So I did feel pregnant the whole time. I'm not
Speaker 1: talking so much about the physicality of it, but I
Speaker 1: am one thousand percent un question. I'm really talking about
Speaker 1: the emotion of it and the depth of connection around
Speaker 1: being pregnant. And you know, I think I've been writing
Speaker 1: books on this stuff forever and I'm you know, spiritual,
Speaker 1: and I've really honed my mind set on a number
Speaker 1: of different things, and I'm very big on the languaging.
Speaker 1: So yes, I would always say to people I'm pregnant,
Speaker 1: and I would believe that one hundred percent that I
Speaker 1: am pregnant, like it was. So I think everything is
Speaker 1: in you know, language and belief has so much to
Speaker 1: do with feeling. And then also, you know, I was
Speaker 1: just like this crazy person who I just loved it.
Speaker 1: I would go into baby shops and like try on
Speaker 1: carriers and like put a little baby in there, like
Speaker 1: I would all these things constantly. I you know, the
Speaker 1: pram I used to we had this. I seriously ended
Speaker 1: up buying like a pretend baby and I would wheel
Speaker 1: him around like I was so pregnant. But also the
Speaker 1: wildest thing happens, And I think this is the beauty
Speaker 1: of that time with Sarah and I together. I have
Speaker 1: never felt as connected to a human in my life,
Speaker 1: no one, not my mother, not anyone as I did
Speaker 1: with Sarah, because we were just so in sync, you know.
Speaker 1: And it's like having a best friend who you're calling
Speaker 1: or texting or dming like you know, or facetiming or
Speaker 1: seeing in persons like multiple times a day, and so
Speaker 1: having someone to share that journey in parallel was just
Speaker 1: like the most exciting thing I could ever imagine. And
Speaker 1: things would happen like I've not had. I think I've
Speaker 1: had antibiotics like once or twice in my life. I've
Speaker 1: never had them. And then Sarah had a kidney infection
Speaker 1: and had to go on to antibiotics. And then the
Speaker 1: next day, like I weirdly got some infection in my
Speaker 1: finger from gardening, and I had to go to antibiotics, Like,
Speaker 1: there was just so many things, you know, And like Sarah,
Speaker 1: often we'd be out at lunch or something and she'd
Speaker 1: be like, oh, I need to go and be sick,
Speaker 1: and I'd be like, oh, do I go? Stick my fingers?
Speaker 4: But clear I always encouraged her not to No, no,
Speaker 4: you're good.
Speaker 1: I was like, we're in this together, though, let's go.
Speaker 1: So I did feel pregnant the whole time, and you know,
Speaker 1: that becomes slightly confusing for onlookers when I'm so, you know,
Speaker 1: the brosely saying I'm seven months pregnant, and they look
Speaker 1: down and they're like, wow, oh yeah, but my baby's
Speaker 1: and someone else's tummy, and but like it was almost
Speaker 1: like I had to explain it because I'm like, what
Speaker 1: do you mean you can't see them?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 6: Can you see my baby that I bought in my carrier?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And then sad the opposite because she looked obviously pregnant.
Speaker 1: But then people would be like congratulations and she'd be like,
Speaker 1: oh no, it's not mine or David her hobby would
Speaker 1: be like, oh no, no, it's not.
Speaker 2: My baby, like it was.
Speaker 1: You know, different stuff.
Speaker 6: Oh my gosh, well I love yeah.
Speaker 3: How well, you guys kind of tackle those unique eccentricities
Speaker 3: of such a unique situation with such humor and grace
Speaker 3: in the book. And least also the fact that you
Speaker 3: had skinner skin like straight away and that there was
Speaker 3: never a moment. I think I cried when I read
Speaker 3: you just saying that He's there's never been a moment
Speaker 3: where you aren't Hugo's mom, like the whole way through,
Speaker 3: it's just so and said that there's been no moment
Speaker 3: where you did feel that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so like you said with your mom, the
Speaker 1: mannerisms already, like all the way through, it is the
Speaker 1: wildest thing. How often I'll look over and he's like
Speaker 1: doing something like it's just like just very very similar.
Speaker 1: And he overheats. I overheat.
Speaker 6: I mean, I mean you live up north, so that's
Speaker 6: kind of also.
Speaker 2: Easiest thing.
Speaker 5: It was a hot day and we both got we
Speaker 5: were sweating.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, job, I don't want to take away
Speaker 1: from anything. People are like, oh, yeah.
Speaker 7: The sides, there are sides, lots of them, but yeah,
Speaker 7: it's pretty well and yeah, the skin to skin the birth,
Speaker 7: which says that we do go into a lot of
Speaker 7: detailing the power.
Speaker 1: Too, but it's beautiful things. I think this is where
Speaker 1: sometimes you can watch a movie about a romance and
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, that's how my life is. This was
Speaker 1: the opposite. It was like, I feel like I've watched
Speaker 1: movies and berths and they whisked the baby away and
Speaker 1: they do whatever they do and they clean them up.
Speaker 1: So in my mind, I was like, they're going to
Speaker 1: take him, They're going to take him. And literally I
Speaker 1: caught him. I delivered my own baby, and then Stephen
Speaker 1: cut the cord and then Hugo came straight onto my
Speaker 1: chest and no one took him away. They didn't clean him.
Speaker 1: They just like I did everything, and that's where he stayed.
Speaker 1: It wasn't until we went to weigh him, like a
Speaker 1: few hours later. I think, like, no one took my baby.
Speaker 1: And the beautiful moment was once I had my time
Speaker 1: with him and Saa was kind of out of her
Speaker 1: parallel universe of being, you know, all the situations that
Speaker 1: were happening for her. I took hu go over and together,
Speaker 1: I you know, put him onto her chest and like
Speaker 1: just that moment of us together was just so amazing.
Speaker 2: I have goosebumps again.
Speaker 6: Oh my god.
Speaker 3: I mean what a remarkable, beautiful story, and the name
Speaker 3: is so perfect, the power of two. It is truly
Speaker 3: like what you were able to achieve together is a
Speaker 3: human being who's a happy little eighteen month old who's
Speaker 3: got the whole world ahead of him. Like that is
Speaker 3: just pure magic.
Speaker 4: Yeah it is.
Speaker 1: It's definitely the most special, extraordinary thing in the world.
Speaker 1: And I'm just so glad. I mean that doesn't even
Speaker 1: touch the surface that you know, I never gave up.
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, and that's you know, was there for
Speaker 1: me and unquestionably all the way through, and you know,
Speaker 1: for that, I am forever and eternally grateful from the
Speaker 1: moment of me saying, oh hey, he's still interested in
Speaker 1: being a sorry girl. From that moment, so I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: well I have had, you know, all this surgery, but
Speaker 1: let me just go check like the whole way through.
Speaker 1: And I think my whole life for some reason, which
Speaker 1: has made me who I am and tenacious and resilient
Speaker 1: and have the ability to overcome things. I think I've
Speaker 1: you know, as many of us have been let down
Speaker 1: many times, and so I just learned but not once ever,
Speaker 1: every single time, Sale was just calm, cool and collected
Speaker 1: and she's like, oh, I'll just find that out and yell,
Speaker 1: let's go. And even you know when we did when
Speaker 1: the first baby on round seventeen didn't take, and then
Speaker 1: I was like, oh god, will she want to do
Speaker 1: it again? And you know, straight away it says it
Speaker 1: wasn't even like let's wait a month. I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: how quickly can we do it? So she's been there
Speaker 1: like an absolute rock and waveringly the entire way through.
Speaker 1: And I think that's really what one of the really
Speaker 1: important messages in the book as well. It's not, yes,
Speaker 1: Scus is the true story, but this is about the
Speaker 1: power of friendship and the power of community, and the
Speaker 1: power of being vulnerable enough to say I need something,
Speaker 1: and the power of if you have the ability to
Speaker 1: help someone, step up and help them, you know. And
Speaker 1: on that someone reached out to me on Instagram. Funnily
Speaker 1: enough a few days ago and said, oh, hey, I've
Speaker 1: been wanting to reach out to you for like the
Speaker 1: last year and offer to be a surrogate for you,
Speaker 1: but I thought that you'd just be inundated. Well no,
Speaker 1: I haven't been in undated, but so I think, just
Speaker 1: never be afraid to offer you know if you see
Speaker 1: someone struggling or you see someone needing something, offer because
Speaker 1: you never know, like what an impact and how much
Speaker 1: that can help someone else.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I love as well, Sarah, how open you've
Speaker 3: been to like your whole family. It's Lisa, you said
Speaker 3: it takes a village. It's not just Sarah, it's Sarah's
Speaker 3: family and the three kids. Like, I love how much
Speaker 3: you still are all catching up all the time, and
Speaker 3: everyone's in each other's lives, and what a beautiful story
Speaker 3: for the ages, like for all of the family members,
Speaker 3: Like everyone is involved in this beautiful little child and
Speaker 3: part of his world.
Speaker 6: And my god, I could talk about this forever.
Speaker 3: I've realized that it's past twelve, and I know you
Speaker 3: need to go, Lisa, but just you are both remarkable,
Speaker 3: extraordinary women for doing it and sharing it with everyone.
Speaker 3: And Hugo is just magical. I cannot wait for Teddy
Speaker 3: and Hugo to meet, and just thank you both.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you Sarah and Sarah.
Speaker 3: Oh well, for anyone who is interested in more detail,
Speaker 3: there is so much I mean, like literally so much
Speaker 3: honesty and openness and detail in the power of two emotionally, logistically,
Speaker 3: everything you would ever want to know, and I'll also
Speaker 3: include links in the notes to Lisa's page, sales page,
Speaker 3: wherever you might want to go to get other resources.
Speaker 2: But thank you.
Speaker 3: Both so much, and congratulations on everything.
Speaker 4: Amazing, Thank you so much, Thank you, Ah.
Speaker 3: I learned so much in this episode, and I still
Speaker 3: feel like we didn't scrape the surface.
Speaker 2: I really do wish I could just read the entire
Speaker 2: book out to you guys.
Speaker 3: In fact, maybe for some episodes I should do an
Speaker 3: audiobook in chapters of books that I've really enjoyed, I
Speaker 3: highly recommend you grab a copy of the Power of Two.
Speaker 3: It is not just about surrogacy, but also tenacity, resilience, friendship,
Speaker 3: thinking outside the box, and just the grit of sticking
Speaker 3: with a goal. For goodness me eight years. I will
Speaker 3: pop the link in the show notes and share links
Speaker 3: to Lisa and Sarah's socials and pages as well. To
Speaker 3: anyone on their own journey, I hope there may have
Speaker 3: been a glimmer of hope or a small piece of
Speaker 3: information that helped you on your way, or sparked something
Speaker 3: that you might not have felt.
Speaker 2: Or thought about before.
Speaker 3: I truly believe that our earlier struggles for Nick and
Speaker 3: I personally at least were all because our little Teddy
Speaker 3: was just waiting before his time. But in the moment,
Speaker 3: it can be one of the most emotionally grueling, complex, confusing,
Speaker 3: and exhausting times of your life. I've been there, so
Speaker 3: I absolutely understand Sending so much love to all of you.
Speaker 3: And if there is any other topic like surrogacy that
Speaker 3: you'd like to hear more about on Caesar Baby, or
Speaker 3: a particular guest or expert that you'd like to hear from,
Speaker 3: please do always send me a DM or an email.
Speaker 3: I also often run out of ideas and love to
Speaker 3: hear your requests or your perspectives, so love this to
Speaker 3: be a neighborhood production. In the meantime, we will be
Speaker 3: back soon with a regular guest episode.
Speaker 2: I hope you are.
Speaker 3: Having a wonderful start to the year.
Speaker 2: January just has flown by.
Speaker 3: I kind of feel like every year I just make
Speaker 3: February first the start of my new year.
Speaker 2: I hope you guys are all seizing your yay.
Speaker 1: Father am regent, a father, a humanly residing from