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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Muma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of the land and waters that this

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Speaker 1: podcast is recorded.

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Speaker 2: On Hello and welcome to our limited series of Parenting

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Speaker 2: Out Loud. I am Jesse Stevens and I am joined

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Speaker 2: by Merely Lester. You can say hello and Maria. You're

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Speaker 2: alload to say hello, Hope, Jase, how are you good?

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Speaker 2: And we're here to talk about some of the stories

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Speaker 2: that dominated the week, because if parents are thinking about it,

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Speaker 2: we're talking about it. And today we also have a

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Speaker 2: very special third co host. It is Mum and MIA's

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Speaker 2: deputy editor. Welcome to Stacey Hicks.

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Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, thanks for scooching over.

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Speaker 3: For hell me.

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Speaker 2: Please tell us a bit about yourself.

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Speaker 1: This question is my nightmare. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: using that is so fine.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to leave it as open ended as possible

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Speaker 2: so that you'd lose slopover.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I feel like all I do is scroll on

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Speaker 1: TikTok in bed so is not very interesting. I'm the

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Speaker 1: writer of many words on Muma Mia that you might

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Speaker 1: have seen on the website. I'm the drinker of copious

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Speaker 1: amounts of tea and margaritas, which tea and spicy irregular

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Speaker 1: marks oh English breakfast tea, milk sugar, depending on the

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Speaker 1: time of day. You're not a barbarian and I'm a

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Speaker 1: regular mar girl. Very saic.

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Speaker 3: You know I've started putting jalapenos in my soblank.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yes, it's true. It's happening. Sally b An.

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Speaker 2: Early recommendation from Amelia Today and Stacey, do you have

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Speaker 2: a kid?

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Speaker 1: I do. It would be a bit weird if I

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Speaker 1: didn't throwing my opinions around. I am one and done

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Speaker 1: so I've had one child. I got it right. I'm

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Speaker 1: stopping so clever, We're done, well done. I have affected

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Speaker 1: the process you went. This one is ten out of ten.

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Speaker 2: Let's not tempt fate.

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Speaker 1: Or let's just never do that roller coaster again? Whid

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Speaker 1: have a way you want to look at it? How

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Speaker 1: old is the little one? She is four years old.

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Speaker 1: I have a four year old little girl.

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Speaker 2: On today's show Do Kids Ruin Friendships? We discuss two

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Speaker 2: fiery essays about what happens to friendship in the wake

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Speaker 2: of children and the return of the landline signals nostalgia

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Speaker 2: for childhood. We might never be able to recreate. So

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Speaker 2: what is kid rotting and could it be the answer. Plus,

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Speaker 2: children's YouTube star Miss Rachel express support for the children

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Speaker 2: of Gaza and now she's had to disable comments on

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Speaker 2: Instagram and YouTube. We explain what happened and the parasocial

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Speaker 2: relationships we have with kids entertainers. But first, in case

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Speaker 2: you missed it, a number of unnamed women have confessed

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Speaker 2: to making up they have kids in order to get

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Speaker 2: flexibility at work. And I want your initial reactions now, please.

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Speaker 3: I think it's genius, really yeah, because before I had kids,

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Speaker 3: I would always see these women leaving work early to

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Speaker 3: go and pick up so called children from so called school,

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Speaker 3: and they would be consumed with anger and jealousy. How

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Speaker 3: about you, Stacy equally think it's genius.

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Speaker 1: But they have forgotten something very import the guilt that

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Speaker 1: comes along with leaving early. So once you have a

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Speaker 1: child and you have to duck out an hour early,

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Speaker 1: they're not thinking about the fact that you then make

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Speaker 1: up for that tenfold afterwards. To prove that you're way,

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Speaker 1: I'm sending a.

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Speaker 3: Lot of like sort of overly diligent emails to your

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Speaker 3: boss at nine pm.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, that's the part I resent. So one

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Speaker 2: woman told MoMA Maya that she lied to her boss

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Speaker 2: with a story about her daughter experiencing a health emergency

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Speaker 2: and she needed to leave. In reality, it was her cat,

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Speaker 2: and it really was an emergency. And I guess that

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Speaker 2: all depends on your definition of child exactly that definition

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Speaker 2: includes male cat doesn't for me. But I'm slightly horrified

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Speaker 2: by this story. Even though I know there's lots of research,

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Speaker 2: a health emergency of a child is really serious.

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Speaker 1: It's really serious and scary for parent.

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Speaker 2: And that is not to undermine the horror of having

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Speaker 2: a sick cat. But your workplace should respect a sick cat.

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Speaker 2: You should be able to acknowledge I've got a sick cat.

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Speaker 2: I need to leave. There's caarras leave that exists. But

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Speaker 2: I think to suggest, and I saw some of this

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Speaker 2: research and some of the rhetoric around this that said women,

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Speaker 2: particularly without kids, pick up the slack of working mothers.

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Speaker 2: And I resent that so deeply because I know about

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Speaker 2: you too. But are we seeing much slack from working mothers.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'm not going to confess to it here yet.

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Speaker 1: I'm never slacking. No, we're definitely not slacking. But I

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Speaker 1: do think that we take it more seriously when it's

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Speaker 1: a kid. Like, if someone's kid had an emergency, I

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Speaker 1: probably would send them a message that night and say,

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Speaker 1: hope Paul is okay. If it was a cat, I

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Speaker 1: would not, And.

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Speaker 2: I think that that's the right reactions good.

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Speaker 1: I'm allergic to cats. In my defense, I cannot do

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Speaker 1: kids ruin friendships. That's the real reason I barge my

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Speaker 1: way into the studio today. You're lonely and desperate. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I needed to talk about it with my favorite women

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Speaker 1: because I read an article on this very topic and

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Speaker 1: I cannot stop thinking about it. So in a sub

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Speaker 1: called in Pursuit of Clean Countertops, which is a great

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Speaker 1: name by Sarah Peterson, she spoke about how after she

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Speaker 1: gave birth, trying to care about anything other than her

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Speaker 1: baby's Pooh color and sleep schedule was akin to having

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Speaker 1: phantom limb syndrome. So she said she tried to care

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Speaker 1: but just didn't really, So instead of wanting to do

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Speaker 1: these gossip sessions with her child free friends, she was

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Speaker 1: craving more time with the mothers who were experiencing the

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Speaker 1: same thing as her. And the same sentiment was echoed

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Speaker 1: in a piece in the Cut where the writer Alison P.

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Speaker 1: Davis called children tiny little detonators, which they very much

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Speaker 1: are saying. Nothing represents a threat to friendship more than parenthood.

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Speaker 1: So does motherhood actually ruin our friendships or just change

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Speaker 1: the DNA of them a little bit? Well, in my experience,

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Speaker 1: they do ruin friendships a little bit. I've been on

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Speaker 1: both sides of this equation.

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Speaker 3: I had children fairly laid in the piece, and before

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Speaker 3: I had them, I felt a lot of rage. I

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Speaker 3: guess this is a thread through my remarks today. I've

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Speaker 3: felt a lot of rage was who had kids before

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Speaker 3: I did. I could tell that they were not inviting

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Speaker 3: me to birthday parties, which I didn't want to go to,

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Speaker 3: but nonetheless wanted the invitation for. I could tell that

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Speaker 3: they were getting together on side group chats to talk

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Speaker 3: about nappies and toilet training and things I didn't understand,

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Speaker 3: and I desperately wanted to be involved, and I couldn't

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Speaker 3: understand why they weren't involving me.

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Speaker 1: Now that I'm on the.

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Speaker 3: Other side of that equation, I've realized that a big

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Speaker 3: time suck once you have children is that you do

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Speaker 3: have to make friends, not just because you need the

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Speaker 3: fellow feeling and the sympathy of having friends who will

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Speaker 3: also have kids.

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Speaker 1: But also we live in such.

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Speaker 3: An isolated society now and parenting is just put on

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Speaker 3: to the parents rather than the community. And I need

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Speaker 3: mum friends who I can lean on if I can't

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Speaker 3: pick the kid up from school at the right time,

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Speaker 3: or if I have a really important question about something

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Speaker 3: that Google is not going to answer for me without

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Speaker 3: a sort of anxiety spiral. I need those friends who

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Speaker 3: I can call on and lean on in moments of

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Speaker 3: crisis with my kids. So now I guess I understand

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Speaker 3: given that time is limited once you do have kids,

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Speaker 3: you do have to reserve a certain amount of time

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Speaker 3: for making those new friends.

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Speaker 2: So do you think that it's just about the equation

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Speaker 2: that we all have finite time and energy. Whether it's

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Speaker 2: you've got one child or you've got four children, you

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Speaker 2: suddenly have this person that needs all of your attention

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Speaker 2: or as much as you can give them, and then

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Speaker 2: you've got to make parent friends, which is true, whether

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Speaker 2: it's starting with mother's group and then at school and whatever.

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Speaker 2: Is it just that Is it just that there's not

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Speaker 2: as much time, or do you think that it's also

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Speaker 2: that you don't relate in the same way.

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Speaker 1: Stacey, have you lost friends since you had your shoes?

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Speaker 1: I think mine. I didn't lose friends completely, but I

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Speaker 1: think mine went into a state of flux. So you

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Speaker 1: added so many more people in that it just felt

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Speaker 1: like you couldn't give time to the ones that were

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Speaker 1: already there. And I also think, as you said before,

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Speaker 1: once I was on the other side, I kind of

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Speaker 1: went on this apology tour with all of my friends

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Speaker 1: that had had children before me, saying I get it now,

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Speaker 1: like I get why you did this. I get why

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Speaker 1: you retreated from me because I wasn't supporting you in

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Speaker 1: the way that I now need from you.

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Speaker 2: Which you can't. I'm sorry, but you just simply can't understand.

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Speaker 1: And all my friends were very gracious in that way

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Speaker 1: and saying you just didn't get it. You didn't know

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Speaker 1: that showing up with a teddy bear was not very

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Speaker 1: useful to me, and that it would have been better

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Speaker 1: if you'd stacked the dishwasher and not sat on my

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Speaker 1: lounge with me for two hours.

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Speaker 3: I have literally never stacked a friend's dishwasher. I need

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Speaker 3: to go on this apology to it.

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Speaker 1: I do well. Once I did that, I've been a

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Speaker 1: great mum friend to all my friends that have come

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Speaker 1: after me with children, but the ones before, thank god,

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Speaker 1: they were kind about it. But I think it's because

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Speaker 1: that happens with every single friend. You're in a line

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Speaker 1: of the order, and you've got to pay it forward

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Speaker 1: to the ones behind you. See.

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Speaker 2: I kind of reject this. I don't think that kids

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Speaker 2: ruined friendships, and I think accepting that can make us

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Speaker 2: all a bit lazy. It can make the people who

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Speaker 2: have either chosen not to have kids or don't have

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Speaker 2: them yet think they don't want to hang out with me.

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Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of assumptions going both ways

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Speaker 2: that aren't necessarily true. Because when I was in my

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Speaker 2: twenties and my friend wanted to go clubbing, I most

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Speaker 2: of the time didn't want to go clubbing, but I

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Speaker 2: went clubbing because I was like, I just want to

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Speaker 2: hang out with you.

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Speaker 1: Wherever you are.

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Speaker 2: I would go and watch their basketball, they'd come watch

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Speaker 2: my netball. We went through a stage where we take

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Speaker 2: turns going and picking each other up just because we

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Speaker 2: just got our license right. And so it's never about

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Speaker 2: what you're actually doing. It's more about the time you're

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Speaker 2: spending together and In both of these articles, they were

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Speaker 2: sort of saying, if I don't have kids, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to spend time in a park I don't want

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Speaker 2: to spend time at your house with louiy on in

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Speaker 2: the background. And I kind of reject that. I think

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Speaker 2: that if you want to spend time with someone, then

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Speaker 2: you do it on each of your terms to varying degrees,

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Speaker 2: and you can try and maintain those friendships. But it's

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Speaker 2: give and take. I think there's something quite selfish about thinking, well,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to spend my Saturday in a parker

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Speaker 2: at a kid's birthday party. Like, if you want to

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Speaker 2: sustain the friend then there's got a beby given take.

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Speaker 3: What's the give and take on the part of the

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Speaker 3: person who has kids in this equation, what are they

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Speaker 3: being asked to do.

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Speaker 2: I was having this conversation with Maya on Out Loud recently,

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Speaker 2: and she said, get a babysitter and hang out at night,

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Speaker 2: And you know what, do that once a month if

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Speaker 2: you can, if you can afford it. And I know

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Speaker 2: that it's harder for some people than others. It's about

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Speaker 2: how much support you have, but if you can, yeah

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Speaker 2: have that in the diary a month in advance and

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Speaker 2: go all right, let's hang out. But still I think

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Speaker 2: that the friends who don't have kids also have to

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Speaker 2: compromise a little bit.

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Speaker 3: See, I really disagree with you, Jesse. The last thing

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Speaker 3: I want to do is say to a friend of

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Speaker 3: mine who doesn't have children, Mina's at the playground. We

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Speaker 3: will have a half hearted, completely disjointed, ultimately unsatisfactory conversation

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Speaker 3: while I ensure that my child doesn't break his or

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Speaker 3: her neck.

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Speaker 1: Who does that benefit?

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Speaker 3: All right?

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Speaker 2: So I have a theory about why we feel differently

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Speaker 2: about this, which was in the cut article. There is

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Speaker 2: research to suggest something happens around the age of three.

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Speaker 2: The Journal of Demographic Research said that that's when from

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Speaker 2: the age of three is when kids are the most

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Speaker 2: demanding of the parents' time and energy. I currently have

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Speaker 2: a two year old. I wonder if I'm still in this.

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Speaker 2: She's started talking probably like what six months a year ago,

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Speaker 2: like properly talking. But in that first year you can

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Speaker 2: put the baby in the pram and walk the dog, right,

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Speaker 2: So there's still an element of socializing that's possible there

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Speaker 2: even now, push her on the swing. I was hanging

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Speaker 2: out with someone recently who had a five and a

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Speaker 2: seven year old.

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Speaker 1: No, no, because it's.

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Speaker 2: The pulling of the skirt and going my.

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Speaker 1: Mom discussion of the Minecraft movie on which like, your

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Speaker 1: friend as lovely as they are, your kid's boring as shit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like they are boring as shit and you know that,

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Speaker 2: but you love them.

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Speaker 1: And whether you are boring at the start, you are

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Speaker 1: so boring once you have a kid, So actually they're

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Speaker 1: giving up a lot to spend time with you from

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Speaker 1: the start. Like I remember with my newborn talking to

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Speaker 1: my friend at nauseum about the tog rating of sleeping

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Speaker 1: bags and worrying that my daughter wasn't warm enough at night.

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Speaker 1: It's so dull.

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Speaker 2: But you know what, my friends who don't have kids

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Speaker 2: can also be very boring.

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Speaker 1: True.

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Speaker 2: I have a friend at the moment who is doing

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Speaker 2: a fitness challenge. Holy boring the stuff I've heard about,

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Speaker 2: and I follow up, so he talks about his fitness challenge.

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Speaker 2: I talk about Luna's sleep and how much sleep I

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Speaker 2: got last night.

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Speaker 1: We're both bored.

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Speaker 2: Isn't friendship just shared boreder?

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Speaker 3: Look, my main topic of conversation with people right now

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Speaker 3: is the fact that I love mouth tape and I

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Speaker 3: can see the.

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Speaker 1: Light draining from their eyes when I talked to them

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Speaker 1: about this.

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Speaker 3: Just last night, I had dinner with some mum friends

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Speaker 3: and our kids at a tepanyaki joint, which is really

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Speaker 3: interesting because you always wonder whether or not the food

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Speaker 3: is going to make it into the bowl or if

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Speaker 3: it's going to go all over your brand new jumper.

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Speaker 3: I'm pleased to report that my jumper did not have

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Speaker 3: stands on it. At the end of the night, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm devoid of conversation. I'm very tired, and I just

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Speaker 3: started talking about mouth tape because that's my go to,

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Speaker 3: and I realized that's really boring. So we probably shouldn't

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Speaker 3: say just kids are boring, and in fact, this conversation

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Speaker 3: you couldn't send it to partners. Think about heterosexual relationships

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Speaker 3: where you've got do I bring the man who's now

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Speaker 3: in my life along to the dinner with girlfriends.

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Speaker 2: I have met men so much more boring than a

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Speaker 2: six momper so much.

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Speaker 3: This is what I'm saying, And I guess the contention

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Speaker 3: that I'm moving towards here is we're all a little

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Speaker 3: bit boring, but our friends, the people who find us

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Speaker 3: the right amount of boring.

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Speaker 1: So let's not drag other people into the equation.

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Speaker 3: See your friends on the terms as the friendship, don't

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Speaker 3: try and bring kids in, don't try and being partners

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Speaker 3: in interesting. I'm all about the compartmentalization.

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Speaker 1: I think it's also because we're not as accustomed to

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Speaker 1: the ups and downs in our friendships as we are

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Speaker 1: in our relationships. Like I think there's an understanding that

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Speaker 1: in long term relationships you might go through rough patches,

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Speaker 1: you'll go through great patches, and the same is not

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Speaker 1: really said for friendships, like we just go, oh, that's

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Speaker 1: run its course once they've had a child and they've

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Speaker 1: kind of retreated. So and the other thing to consider

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Speaker 1: is how much our circle of friends changes in that time,

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Speaker 1: because we talk about losing friends alone or maybe friends

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Speaker 1: without children retreating from us, but you also are forced

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Speaker 1: into a lot of extra friendships through circumstance, like whether

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Speaker 1: that's through a mother's group, whether that's through sport or kids' activities,

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Speaker 1: where so many more people end up in your life.

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Speaker 1: And there was an essay in Psychology Today where clinical

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Speaker 1: psychologist Seth Meyers, not the late night host, talked about

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Speaker 1: how many people are blindsided by the level of loss

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Speaker 1: when it comes to their friendships, because it's always the

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Speaker 1: ones they don't expect. But he also warned about being

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Speaker 1: a bit cautious going into these new friendships because they've

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Speaker 1: kind of been forced upon you by circumstance, that they

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Speaker 1: might not stand the test of time once those children

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Speaker 1: have kind of grown up or moved out of that activity.

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Speaker 1: That is so true.

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Speaker 2: I've seen that happen where I think people look at

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Speaker 2: each other and they go, oh, we're only mates because

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Speaker 2: or they've tried to like go, all right, so we're

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Speaker 2: friends because our kids into primary school together and they're like,

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Speaker 2: let's try and do a weaken away.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't worry.

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Speaker 2: It's like, no, no, no, it only works in that context.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 3: This makes me think about the fact that when you

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Speaker 3: have little kids, conversation is never that good, and so

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Speaker 3: the friendship there's never that much stream put on the phone. Yes,

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Speaker 3: but as the kids grow older and they're off doing

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Speaker 3: their own thing, all of a sudden, the spotlight is

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Speaker 3: on can this relationship with stand.

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Speaker 1: Long stretches of actual conversation. The jury's out.

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Speaker 2: There are a few things floating around in the culture

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Speaker 2: that I'm going to attempt to bring together. The first

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Speaker 2: is The Atlantic published a story this month about the

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Speaker 2: return of the landline. Writer Rena Murray spoke to a

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Speaker 2: mother who bought her ten year old a landline to

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Speaker 2: connect with her friends, and this was in lieu of

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Speaker 2: a smartphone, and then encouraged other families in the suburb

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Speaker 2: to do the same. So now twenty or so families

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Speaker 2: have landlines. They've got their kids calling each other. She

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Speaker 2: writes about sort of practicing active listening, which is a

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Speaker 2: lot better than looking on FaceTime, which can be distracting.

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Speaker 2: And this leads me to the second thing. I listened

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Speaker 2: to this great episode of Search Engine, which was about

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Speaker 2: a booming industry of technology to stop you from using

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Speaker 2: addictive technology. So think a dumb phone, or there's this

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Speaker 2: thing called a brick, which is you kind of tap

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Speaker 2: your phone, turns all the apps off, and then you

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Speaker 2: can go for a walk or spent a few hours

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Speaker 2: or whatever, and then you tap it again, apps come

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Speaker 2: back on. And the third thing is a story in

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Speaker 2: The Cut about millennial nostalgia for a nineties summer. It's

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Speaker 2: about the school holidays where time was unstructured. You laid around,

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Speaker 2: maybe you watched some TV. You got up late, you

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Speaker 2: went on a budget family trip up the coast, basically

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Speaker 2: a time before YouTube.

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Speaker 1: And I think what.

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Speaker 2: This highlighted for me is that we're trying to wind

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Speaker 2: back the clock and recreate the childhood we had. And

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Speaker 2: my question is is that even possible, Stacy, what do

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Speaker 2: you think?

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Speaker 1: No, I don't think it's possible at all, But I

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Speaker 1: love that everyone is trying. And my best friend has

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Speaker 1: actually been telling me the same thing is happening in

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Speaker 1: her neighborhood at the moment, where all the year four

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Speaker 1: mums have set up a chat about reinstalling landlines in

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Speaker 1: their homes. I thought this was just an Atlantic trendy. No,

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Speaker 1: this is happening in regional Queensland where they're doing that

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Speaker 1: because and her reasoning was really interesting. She said, to me,

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Speaker 1: the most important thing to me is just allowing her

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Speaker 1: to be where she is. So whether they're out at school, sport,

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Speaker 1: whether they're at home just having family time, the technology

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Speaker 1: can physically not reach her, so it's very easy way

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Speaker 1: to shut it off and it not be available and

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Speaker 1: still be able to enjoy being in the present moment

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Speaker 1: of her childhood. And that's the fear.

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Speaker 3: For everybody the idea that the landline is prolonging her

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Speaker 3: having to get a mobile phone. Yes, her daughter, Yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 3: because then it is very much that she can talk

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Speaker 3: in a public space. Her parents are around, they can

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Speaker 3: see that she's chatting, and as you say, they're actually

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Speaker 3: holding a conversation. It's not just tapping away on a

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Speaker 3: keyboard to some faceless friend. They're actually communicating and learning

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Speaker 3: that skill, which I think. I mean, even I hate

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Speaker 3: having to call the doc now we just don't do it.

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Speaker 3: So it's great that they're encouraging them with that.

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Speaker 2: And the theory is that rather than just taking something

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Speaker 2: away and depriving, it's like you give them something else instead.

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Speaker 2: And it reminds me of in this Search Engine episode,

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Speaker 2: it said you can treat your mobile phone like a landline,

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Speaker 2: Like if you walk into your house and you plug

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Speaker 2: it in and you go when my phone is in

400
00:18:31,125 --> 00:18:33,405
Speaker 2: my house, it's plugged in, that's it, and when I

401
00:18:33,445 --> 00:18:36,205
Speaker 2: want to use it, I go upstairs or I go whatever,

402
00:18:36,525 --> 00:18:40,445
Speaker 2: and I tap away. I thought that's really clever because

403
00:18:40,885 --> 00:18:42,965
Speaker 2: that has some boundary where if you're sitting on the

404
00:18:42,965 --> 00:18:44,445
Speaker 2: couch and you just go to look at your phone

405
00:18:44,445 --> 00:18:47,205
Speaker 2: for the four hundredth time that day. Because let's be honest,

406
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Speaker 2: the reason why kids want phones is because we are

407
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Speaker 2: not setting a great example.

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Speaker 1: I am appalling.

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Speaker 2: Just having that bit of resistance is way better for us.

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Speaker 2: I think it was in the cut article it talked

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Speaker 2: about this concept of kid rotting, and it was saying

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Speaker 2: that it might be better to let kids do nothing. Right,

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Speaker 2: So what happens now? School holidays are coming up and

414
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Speaker 2: a lot of people will go camps training, let's have

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Speaker 2: something for every day.

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Speaker 1: But I don't think.

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Speaker 2: You can let a kid rot anymore, because if a

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Speaker 2: kid is rotting, they will gravitate like there is a

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Speaker 2: magnet to the nearest screen and there is no unstructured

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Speaker 2: time because that's just screen time. We'll pay a premium.

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Speaker 2: There is such desperation to be like, oh, school holidays,

422
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Speaker 2: how do I separate child from screen for the longest

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Speaker 2: amount of time possible?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I was talking with a friend about the pressure that

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Speaker 3: we have to enroll kids and all sorts of activities now,

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Speaker 3: and she really dropped a truth bomb. She said, I

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Speaker 3: realized I dial back on my kids' activities, and then

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Speaker 3: I realized that I was just giving them more time

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Speaker 3: to watch television.

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Speaker 1: Yes, exactly right. We had television back in the olden days.

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Speaker 1: But were we just watching less of it?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because it wasn't I think underpinned with an algorithm

434
00:20:05,805 --> 00:20:08,165
Speaker 2: designed to turn our brains into mush. It was like

435
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Speaker 2: I think we all remember the experience of getting bored.

436
00:20:10,645 --> 00:20:12,845
Speaker 1: Yes, And also we didn't have the expectation that we

437
00:20:12,845 --> 00:20:15,645
Speaker 1: would need to be entertained at all times, exactly children

438
00:20:15,725 --> 00:20:16,284
Speaker 1: already have.

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00:20:16,605 --> 00:20:19,205
Speaker 2: And then when you went outside, like, yeah, you could

440
00:20:19,205 --> 00:20:21,285
Speaker 2: go to a friend's house and watch television. But even

441
00:20:21,565 --> 00:20:23,365
Speaker 2: if you haven't seen your kids in a while and

442
00:20:23,365 --> 00:20:25,845
Speaker 2: they're at the neighbor's house or whatever, they're probably on

443
00:20:25,885 --> 00:20:28,845
Speaker 2: PS five right like that, it's very unlikely they're making

444
00:20:28,925 --> 00:20:31,885
Speaker 2: a tree house, which is I think contributing to this

445
00:20:31,925 --> 00:20:37,645
Speaker 2: parental anxiety. And it also I think screens make time

446
00:20:38,365 --> 00:20:41,925
Speaker 2: feel different, like there is this endlessness to a day

447
00:20:42,005 --> 00:20:45,885
Speaker 2: where you're engaged with the world around you, and now

448
00:20:46,565 --> 00:20:50,885
Speaker 2: it just feels so punctuated by three second videos or

449
00:20:51,085 --> 00:20:53,085
Speaker 2: YouTube or whatever they're on.

450
00:20:53,525 --> 00:20:56,804
Speaker 3: And here's another thing I'm concerned about the death of

451
00:20:56,845 --> 00:20:57,645
Speaker 3: the prank call.

452
00:20:59,965 --> 00:21:03,244
Speaker 2: Make prank calls so important, Amelia so true?

453
00:21:03,845 --> 00:21:05,725
Speaker 1: What was your go to oh.

454
00:21:05,765 --> 00:21:07,405
Speaker 3: Look, I don't even want to say it on that,

455
00:21:07,685 --> 00:21:10,605
Speaker 3: but I did love a prank call, like wrap the

456
00:21:10,645 --> 00:21:13,725
Speaker 3: curly cord of the phone around my finger doing the

457
00:21:13,765 --> 00:21:15,005
Speaker 3: star sixty nine to.

458
00:21:14,965 --> 00:21:18,445
Speaker 1: See who would last call remember that someone tells her

459
00:21:18,445 --> 00:21:21,525
Speaker 1: how to devilish sense of humor. I loved all of that,

460
00:21:21,885 --> 00:21:24,044
Speaker 1: I know, and it's sad to think that, for the

461
00:21:24,045 --> 00:21:27,004
Speaker 1: most part, kids are not having that. I just wonder, though,

462
00:21:27,365 --> 00:21:31,165
Speaker 1: it's hard to distinguish between moral panic around phones and

463
00:21:31,245 --> 00:21:35,005
Speaker 1: also the inevitable nostalgia that a parenting generation has for

464
00:21:35,165 --> 00:21:35,685
Speaker 1: its youth.

465
00:21:35,885 --> 00:21:37,725
Speaker 3: Is that just what we're doing here, or is there

466
00:21:37,725 --> 00:21:41,605
Speaker 3: something fundamentally different about the digital world that we live

467
00:21:41,645 --> 00:21:43,725
Speaker 3: in now as compared with the world that we grew

468
00:21:43,765 --> 00:21:44,044
Speaker 3: up in.

469
00:21:44,484 --> 00:21:47,325
Speaker 2: I wonder that too, because there's an inevitable nostalgia. Like

470
00:21:47,325 --> 00:21:49,605
Speaker 2: I'm sure my mum felt the nostalgia because we had

471
00:21:49,765 --> 00:21:51,685
Speaker 2: Foxtel and she was like, well, I think when my

472
00:21:51,765 --> 00:21:54,285
Speaker 2: mom grew up, TV wasn't actually on all night, Like

473
00:21:54,325 --> 00:21:57,004
Speaker 2: there was a point at which the TV stopped and

474
00:21:57,045 --> 00:21:58,205
Speaker 2: she just went you could watch.

475
00:21:58,125 --> 00:21:59,925
Speaker 1: TV at any time, and you can change the channel

476
00:21:59,965 --> 00:22:02,004
Speaker 1: and ware. And when I grew up, there was rage

477
00:22:02,245 --> 00:22:05,004
Speaker 1: and rage it's rage. It is so sad, and you

478
00:22:05,045 --> 00:22:06,885
Speaker 1: don't have to wait for the video to rewind, so

479
00:22:06,925 --> 00:22:09,925
Speaker 1: there is absolutely no patience. Remember that when you get

480
00:22:09,925 --> 00:22:11,685
Speaker 1: out the best video that you wanted to watch on

481
00:22:11,725 --> 00:22:14,125
Speaker 1: school holidays and it was at the end, you had

482
00:22:14,125 --> 00:22:16,004
Speaker 1: to wait to rewind it back to the start. I

483
00:22:16,045 --> 00:22:18,805
Speaker 1: don't do that now. It's just on a loop instantly.

484
00:22:19,125 --> 00:22:22,205
Speaker 3: And I do think the fundamental challenge we have as

485
00:22:22,325 --> 00:22:27,925
Speaker 3: parents is trying to reacquaint ourselves with boredom, because.

486
00:22:27,605 --> 00:22:29,045
Speaker 1: Our children are learning from us.

487
00:22:29,085 --> 00:22:31,165
Speaker 3: Every time we pick up our phone because we feel

488
00:22:31,165 --> 00:22:33,205
Speaker 3: discomfort or disquiet or boredom.

489
00:22:33,445 --> 00:22:36,885
Speaker 2: I reckon algorithms have changed childhood. There is an element

490
00:22:36,885 --> 00:22:39,725
Speaker 2: of nostalgia and us wanting to recreate what we see

491
00:22:39,765 --> 00:22:42,524
Speaker 2: as an idyllic if we're lucky enough, but moments of

492
00:22:42,925 --> 00:22:45,484
Speaker 2: an idyllic kind of utopian childhood, and we go I

493
00:22:45,565 --> 00:22:48,005
Speaker 2: want to give them that. I do think that it's

494
00:22:48,045 --> 00:22:52,284
Speaker 2: fundamentally changed how time is spent in childhood. And I

495
00:22:52,325 --> 00:22:56,085
Speaker 2: even think about the computer room. Like when I grew up,

496
00:22:56,125 --> 00:22:58,645
Speaker 2: when the computer did come, it was in a room

497
00:22:59,165 --> 00:23:03,085
Speaker 2: and you fought for it, and sometimes it was dial up.

498
00:23:03,605 --> 00:23:05,764
Speaker 2: There was a sense as well that even though it

499
00:23:05,805 --> 00:23:08,125
Speaker 2: was a room that it wasn't entirely private, so you

500
00:23:08,125 --> 00:23:10,885
Speaker 2: felt like you were being watched. And now every in

501
00:23:10,965 --> 00:23:13,885
Speaker 2: every house is a computer room, so it just means

502
00:23:13,965 --> 00:23:16,725
Speaker 2: that time isn't it doesn't have these distinctions when it comes.

503
00:23:16,605 --> 00:23:19,004
Speaker 1: To exactly and on Muma Mea, actually, we've seen a

504
00:23:19,045 --> 00:23:22,085
Speaker 1: huge appetite from parents for information on how to control

505
00:23:22,285 --> 00:23:25,605
Speaker 1: their children's access to technology. We did a story on

506
00:23:25,805 --> 00:23:29,285
Speaker 1: the top three safety features every parent needs on their

507
00:23:29,325 --> 00:23:31,925
Speaker 1: phone that analyst Todd wrote for us and it was

508
00:23:32,085 --> 00:23:36,045
Speaker 1: top on the site for days just talking about us. Yeah,

509
00:23:36,085 --> 00:23:38,365
Speaker 1: so there's lots of different features. This is mostly for

510
00:23:38,405 --> 00:23:41,605
Speaker 1: the Apple users, so apologies to the androids users among us.

511
00:23:41,925 --> 00:23:45,605
Speaker 1: But there's now nudity blocking functions where oh wow, you

512
00:23:45,645 --> 00:23:47,524
Speaker 1: can set those up on your children's phone so it

513
00:23:47,565 --> 00:23:50,365
Speaker 1: blurs the images. They've got a three step process they

514
00:23:50,365 --> 00:23:52,965
Speaker 1: have to get through to see it, including you putting

515
00:23:53,005 --> 00:23:56,125
Speaker 1: in a password for them to see the image. There's

516
00:23:56,205 --> 00:23:59,004
Speaker 1: screen time setups now where you can be blocking certain

517
00:23:59,045 --> 00:24:01,445
Speaker 1: websites so that they can't access them, and of course

518
00:24:01,484 --> 00:24:04,605
Speaker 1: like limiting their screen time all together can be done

519
00:24:04,605 --> 00:24:08,045
Speaker 1: as well. But the response to that story was epic

520
00:24:08,165 --> 00:24:10,244
Speaker 1: and I think that just showed how worried we all

521
00:24:10,245 --> 00:24:12,685
Speaker 1: about that, whether we're at that stage with our children

522
00:24:12,765 --> 00:24:15,165
Speaker 1: or not, to be thinking well, how am I going

523
00:24:15,205 --> 00:24:16,685
Speaker 1: to get on top of this? And maybe a little

524
00:24:16,685 --> 00:24:18,645
Speaker 1: bit of thinking how do I get on top of

525
00:24:18,685 --> 00:24:21,564
Speaker 1: this one myself now so that I'm not setting this

526
00:24:21,685 --> 00:24:22,125
Speaker 1: up for them.

527
00:24:22,325 --> 00:24:24,965
Speaker 2: Emily Osta, who gives a bit of parenting advice, and

528
00:24:25,085 --> 00:24:29,004
Speaker 2: a lot of it is databased, she says about screen time,

529
00:24:30,005 --> 00:24:32,524
Speaker 2: what's it taking away from? So whenever you have a

530
00:24:32,725 --> 00:24:36,565
Speaker 2: child who's looking at a screen, So for example, Luna

531
00:24:36,605 --> 00:24:39,605
Speaker 2: has been unwell recently, and it's like we wouldn't be

532
00:24:39,645 --> 00:24:44,765
Speaker 2: at the park, we wouldn't be doing something enriching, she's

533
00:24:44,805 --> 00:24:46,845
Speaker 2: glad to look at the TV. Like, if the difference

534
00:24:46,885 --> 00:24:48,845
Speaker 2: is between looking at a TV and looking at a

535
00:24:48,845 --> 00:24:51,085
Speaker 2: white wall, then you're allowed to do the TV. It's

536
00:24:51,125 --> 00:24:54,365
Speaker 2: just when it starts to sort of encroach on other activities.

537
00:24:54,405 --> 00:24:57,325
Speaker 2: And I also heard an expert say not all screen

538
00:24:57,365 --> 00:24:59,965
Speaker 2: time is equal. So if you can find something that

539
00:25:00,005 --> 00:25:02,845
Speaker 2: has any sort of narrative, like even Blue Eye, it

540
00:25:02,885 --> 00:25:05,284
Speaker 2: does have like a story to it, way better than

541
00:25:05,405 --> 00:25:09,325
Speaker 2: just jumbling fast cuts of like this is brainmush or

542
00:25:09,605 --> 00:25:12,445
Speaker 2: social media. That makes a difference and something that's a

543
00:25:12,445 --> 00:25:15,405
Speaker 2: little bit more slow is also what some of the

544
00:25:15,445 --> 00:25:18,485
Speaker 2: experts say. And in terms of phones, I remember reading

545
00:25:18,525 --> 00:25:20,925
Speaker 2: the advice years ago turn it to gray scale, and

546
00:25:21,005 --> 00:25:23,685
Speaker 2: it makes it less appealing, and I've found that helps

547
00:25:23,685 --> 00:25:24,605
Speaker 2: for me to see.

548
00:25:26,484 --> 00:25:30,484
Speaker 3: Mss Rachel is a very popular children's entertainer. I have

549
00:25:30,605 --> 00:25:34,125
Speaker 3: actually never seen her videos, but I have gone deep

550
00:25:34,285 --> 00:25:38,804
Speaker 3: on a controversy that has embroiled her and which I

551
00:25:38,805 --> 00:25:41,004
Speaker 3: think gets to the heart of the relationship that we

552
00:25:41,125 --> 00:25:43,885
Speaker 3: now have with children's entertainers. So let me unpack it.

553
00:25:44,445 --> 00:25:47,324
Speaker 3: Her real name is Rachel and Accurso. She is a

554
00:25:47,365 --> 00:25:50,765
Speaker 3: former teacher. She makes adorable content for kids on YouTube.

555
00:25:51,045 --> 00:25:53,685
Speaker 3: I'm told it's adorable. She certainly looks adorable. She wears

556
00:25:53,685 --> 00:25:56,125
Speaker 3: overalls and a pink T shirt and a pick headband,

557
00:25:56,805 --> 00:25:59,765
Speaker 3: and her channel, which started in twenty nineteen to help

558
00:25:59,805 --> 00:26:02,525
Speaker 3: her own son with a speech delay, has over fifteen

559
00:26:02,525 --> 00:26:06,805
Speaker 3: million subscribers, and she's recently had her videos licensed by Netflix,

560
00:26:06,925 --> 00:26:09,925
Speaker 3: so she might be, by some metrics, the most popular

561
00:26:10,005 --> 00:26:13,445
Speaker 3: children entertainer in the world. However, she is in trouble.

562
00:26:13,845 --> 00:26:17,804
Speaker 3: In April, an American group called Stop Antisemitism called on

563
00:26:17,885 --> 00:26:21,965
Speaker 3: the US Attorney General, Pam Bondie to investigate Miss Rachel.

564
00:26:22,605 --> 00:26:25,524
Speaker 3: The group said that she had been disseminating pro har

565
00:26:25,605 --> 00:26:29,965
Speaker 3: maass propaganda and getting paid by her MASS for doing so,

566
00:26:30,325 --> 00:26:33,445
Speaker 3: which would be quite a scandal. I agree, is Miss

567
00:26:33,605 --> 00:26:38,004
Speaker 3: Rachel in fact disseminating pro har mass propaganda? We should

568
00:26:38,045 --> 00:26:41,244
Speaker 3: say that she denies that she is being paid anything

569
00:26:41,365 --> 00:26:44,085
Speaker 3: by her MASS, and I think that the charge that

570
00:26:44,125 --> 00:26:47,645
Speaker 3: she's disseminating propaganda is kind of a tough case to make.

571
00:26:47,685 --> 00:26:50,645
Speaker 3: Speaking as someone who is not very familiar with her content,

572
00:26:50,725 --> 00:26:53,045
Speaker 3: I watched a few of her videos in preparation for this.

573
00:26:53,725 --> 00:26:56,405
Speaker 3: They seem very benign to me. They seem to be

574
00:26:56,484 --> 00:27:00,925
Speaker 3: about toilet training, brushing your teeth, learning your colors. I

575
00:27:01,005 --> 00:27:04,205
Speaker 3: did not see anything that would seem to be pro

576
00:27:04,285 --> 00:27:08,125
Speaker 3: har mass propaganda. What she has posted on her social

577
00:27:08,205 --> 00:27:11,524
Speaker 3: media feed on her Instagram so separate from the YouTube channel,

578
00:27:12,085 --> 00:27:16,205
Speaker 3: are images of traumatized children in the Gaza strip. These

579
00:27:16,245 --> 00:27:19,605
Speaker 3: images often feature the children watching her videos or even

580
00:27:19,645 --> 00:27:23,925
Speaker 3: interacting with Miss Rachel via FaceTime. She has also pledged

581
00:27:23,925 --> 00:27:26,845
Speaker 3: one million dollars to the World Food Program, which works

582
00:27:26,845 --> 00:27:30,805
Speaker 3: to provide nutrition for kids in conflict zones Sudan, Ukraine

583
00:27:31,005 --> 00:27:35,565
Speaker 3: and also Gaza. She has also posted about Israeli children

584
00:27:35,725 --> 00:27:38,845
Speaker 3: who were held hostage by Hamas. She told The New

585
00:27:38,925 --> 00:27:41,685
Speaker 3: York Times in a very long investigative peace about this

586
00:27:41,965 --> 00:27:44,725
Speaker 3: that her posting about children in Gaza was a continuation

587
00:27:44,925 --> 00:27:48,764
Speaker 3: of her lifelong work and passion for children. But The

588
00:27:48,885 --> 00:27:52,565
Speaker 3: Times quoted some Jewish parents who felt distraught. They said

589
00:27:52,565 --> 00:27:55,685
Speaker 3: that there was a relative lack of posts about Israeli children,

590
00:27:55,765 --> 00:27:58,765
Speaker 3: and The Times, which did an analysis of Miss Rachel's

591
00:27:58,765 --> 00:28:02,925
Speaker 3: Instagram content, agreed with that assessment that she did tend

592
00:28:02,965 --> 00:28:06,165
Speaker 3: to post more about ghaz and children than Israeli children.

593
00:28:07,045 --> 00:28:08,125
Speaker 1: One Jewish parent.

594
00:28:08,005 --> 00:28:10,645
Speaker 3: Quoted said Miss Rachel seems to be someone who was

595
00:28:10,725 --> 00:28:13,645
Speaker 3: really really good hearted, but in the context of everything

596
00:28:13,685 --> 00:28:16,205
Speaker 3: that's going on, she says, I care about all children,

597
00:28:16,365 --> 00:28:19,365
Speaker 3: She's really talking about the children of Gaza. That was

598
00:28:19,405 --> 00:28:22,405
Speaker 3: a Jewish parent called Stacy Hackner, who's based in London.

599
00:28:22,885 --> 00:28:25,005
Speaker 3: She said that has left a lot of Jewish parents

600
00:28:25,045 --> 00:28:29,484
Speaker 3: feeling quite isolated. In research for this, I have to

601
00:28:29,525 --> 00:28:32,605
Speaker 3: say that one video that Miss Rachel Pinn really made

602
00:28:32,605 --> 00:28:34,764
Speaker 3: a big impression on me. It featured a three year

603
00:28:34,805 --> 00:28:38,485
Speaker 3: old girl called Rahaf who was a double amputee who

604
00:28:38,525 --> 00:28:41,765
Speaker 3: was medically evacuated from Gaza for her surgery and sings

605
00:28:41,805 --> 00:28:45,125
Speaker 3: a song with Miss Rachel about skipping and hopping. Her

606
00:28:45,125 --> 00:28:49,325
Speaker 3: two brothers are still in Gaza with their father. Stepping

607
00:28:49,365 --> 00:28:51,525
Speaker 3: back from all of this, though, I want to talk

608
00:28:51,565 --> 00:28:56,485
Speaker 3: about why we feel so connected in this way to

609
00:28:56,605 --> 00:29:00,725
Speaker 3: children's entertainers, why it matters to us what Miss Rachel

610
00:29:00,805 --> 00:29:04,285
Speaker 3: thinks about world news and events. I think it's probably

611
00:29:04,325 --> 00:29:06,965
Speaker 3: inevitable on one level that these debates are happening. You

612
00:29:07,085 --> 00:29:09,765
Speaker 3: just have to look at how during COVID desperate parents

613
00:29:09,765 --> 00:29:12,325
Speaker 3: were looking for anything to entertain their children, and they

614
00:29:12,405 --> 00:29:16,045
Speaker 3: latched on to all sorts of parenting gurus. So one

615
00:29:16,085 --> 00:29:18,285
Speaker 3: guru I was obsessed with during this time was an

616
00:29:18,285 --> 00:29:21,165
Speaker 3: American woman called Taking Cara Babies. Have either of you

617
00:29:21,205 --> 00:29:21,685
Speaker 3: heard of her?

618
00:29:21,965 --> 00:29:22,005
Speaker 1: No?

619
00:29:23,005 --> 00:29:27,565
Speaker 3: So she is this lovely blonde woman from Arizona who

620
00:29:27,725 --> 00:29:31,525
Speaker 3: posted endless Instagram videos about sleep schedules. She absolutely got

621
00:29:31,525 --> 00:29:34,925
Speaker 3: me through twenty twenty. I'm still citing in my household

622
00:29:34,965 --> 00:29:37,005
Speaker 3: all the time. Her idea of the sleepwave, you got

623
00:29:37,045 --> 00:29:39,245
Speaker 3: to ride the sleepwave. This applies to adults too. If

624
00:29:39,285 --> 00:29:41,285
Speaker 3: you feel sleep coming on you got to ride the wave,

625
00:29:41,365 --> 00:29:42,805
Speaker 3: and if you miss the wave, you gotta wait for

626
00:29:42,845 --> 00:29:43,325
Speaker 3: the next one.

627
00:29:43,485 --> 00:29:47,165
Speaker 1: Genius. I was very dismayed when I found out that

628
00:29:47,285 --> 00:29:50,765
Speaker 1: Kara was a Trump supporter. She had not posted about

629
00:29:50,805 --> 00:29:52,845
Speaker 1: it on her taking care of Babies account, but she

630
00:29:53,045 --> 00:29:55,965
Speaker 1: was posting about it on her personal account. I really

631
00:29:56,005 --> 00:29:59,525
Speaker 1: resented her using even her personal account to talk about politics,

632
00:29:59,565 --> 00:30:02,005
Speaker 1: and it made me not want to watch her videos

633
00:30:02,125 --> 00:30:06,965
Speaker 1: or take her sleep advice anymore. I I'm not drawing

634
00:30:07,005 --> 00:30:10,245
Speaker 1: equivalences or even parallels between these very different political st

635
00:30:10,405 --> 00:30:12,445
Speaker 1: stories here. I'm mentioning it.

636
00:30:12,325 --> 00:30:17,365
Speaker 3: Because I felt left out, resentful, angry at taking care

637
00:30:17,405 --> 00:30:19,365
Speaker 3: of babies in a way that perhaps I didn't have

638
00:30:19,405 --> 00:30:21,565
Speaker 3: a right to. She was teaching me about children's sleep.

639
00:30:21,645 --> 00:30:24,365
Speaker 3: She wasn't showing me her political beliefs or talking about

640
00:30:24,405 --> 00:30:27,325
Speaker 3: world events. But I think what's interesting is that we

641
00:30:27,445 --> 00:30:30,165
Speaker 3: clearly do expect people who work with or care about

642
00:30:30,205 --> 00:30:33,325
Speaker 3: kids to not share their political beliefs with us, and

643
00:30:33,365 --> 00:30:35,605
Speaker 3: to not share how they think about the wider world.

644
00:30:35,685 --> 00:30:39,085
Speaker 3: And I'm wondering if that's really fair, And it seems

645
00:30:39,085 --> 00:30:42,565
Speaker 3: connected to me to an idea that children themselves should

646
00:30:42,605 --> 00:30:46,805
Speaker 3: not be talked about as living in an inherently political world.

647
00:30:47,045 --> 00:30:49,645
Speaker 3: Children at living in a world where the decisions made

648
00:30:49,645 --> 00:30:52,765
Speaker 3: by leaders directly impact them. Doesn't it make sense for

649
00:30:52,885 --> 00:30:55,165
Speaker 3: the experts that we turn to to raise our own

650
00:30:55,285 --> 00:30:57,725
Speaker 3: children to weigh in on these decisions that are being

651
00:30:57,805 --> 00:30:58,565
Speaker 3: made by leaders.

652
00:30:59,085 --> 00:31:03,805
Speaker 2: It's interesting because I reckon it is a totally different

653
00:31:04,125 --> 00:31:07,645
Speaker 2: level of parasocial relationship. And I think it's because of

654
00:31:07,685 --> 00:31:10,885
Speaker 2: the moments where we feel our children with a Miss

655
00:31:10,965 --> 00:31:14,205
Speaker 2: Rachel example, She's been in your home, she's been in

656
00:31:14,245 --> 00:31:17,645
Speaker 2: your child's bedroom, she's sung in your child's ear.

657
00:31:17,885 --> 00:31:19,445
Speaker 1: Are you are Miss Rachel arclose?

658
00:31:19,565 --> 00:31:21,525
Speaker 2: So we have Miss Rachel plays a song for us

659
00:31:21,565 --> 00:31:23,365
Speaker 2: every time we brush our teeth. We do the brushing

660
00:31:23,405 --> 00:31:27,325
Speaker 2: teeth song, and she is like I see her and

661
00:31:27,445 --> 00:31:30,285
Speaker 2: hear her at some of my most vulnerable moments, at

662
00:31:30,285 --> 00:31:33,605
Speaker 2: some of Luna's most vulnerable moments, that she feels like

663
00:31:33,645 --> 00:31:35,885
Speaker 2: an extension of the family. And I don't think we

664
00:31:36,045 --> 00:31:40,245
Speaker 2: realize this until there is a moment, as you say

665
00:31:40,285 --> 00:31:42,965
Speaker 2: with your example, I don't feel this about Miss Rachel,

666
00:31:43,005 --> 00:31:46,365
Speaker 2: but like of betrayal, where people then go, hang on,

667
00:31:46,485 --> 00:31:48,485
Speaker 2: You're not who I thought you were. And I wonder

668
00:31:48,525 --> 00:31:51,285
Speaker 2: if it's like if you have a nanny or an

669
00:31:51,525 --> 00:31:54,805
Speaker 2: early educator or even a teacher, like there is an

670
00:31:54,805 --> 00:31:59,965
Speaker 2: expectation that their political selves or whatever might be left

671
00:32:00,005 --> 00:32:06,365
Speaker 2: outside the classroom because there is this incredible, innocent, almost

672
00:32:06,445 --> 00:32:11,765
Speaker 2: quite simplistic and straightforward relationship with your child. But on

673
00:32:11,805 --> 00:32:16,965
Speaker 2: the Miss Rachel example, I think it feels so consistent right,

674
00:32:17,125 --> 00:32:20,005
Speaker 2: Like she has said that no child should have their

675
00:32:20,005 --> 00:32:24,045
Speaker 2: crucial brain development interrupted by trauma. And whether you want

676
00:32:24,085 --> 00:32:26,685
Speaker 2: to talk about scale, and everyone has the right to

677
00:32:27,125 --> 00:32:29,525
Speaker 2: feel how they want to and not listen to Miss

678
00:32:29,645 --> 00:32:32,125
Speaker 2: Rachel if she doesn't feel like an extension of your

679
00:32:32,125 --> 00:32:35,805
Speaker 2: family anymore. But that does feel consistent with what she's

680
00:32:35,845 --> 00:32:38,605
Speaker 2: always done. And she's always, you know, encouraged people to

681
00:32:39,205 --> 00:32:41,205
Speaker 2: donate to the food bank and make sure kids have

682
00:32:41,325 --> 00:32:43,445
Speaker 2: enough food. And I think that there were videos or

683
00:32:43,485 --> 00:32:48,084
Speaker 2: examples of kids in some of these instances watching Miss Rachel,

684
00:32:48,485 --> 00:32:51,205
Speaker 2: so to her, I think she probably felt drawn into

685
00:32:51,245 --> 00:32:54,125
Speaker 2: it as well because she had this presence.

686
00:32:54,685 --> 00:32:57,765
Speaker 1: I am a Miss Rachel household as well. We very

687
00:32:57,805 --> 00:33:01,165
Speaker 1: sincerely referred to her as the third parent in our household.

688
00:33:01,165 --> 00:33:03,045
Speaker 1: Can we step back, and I just want to ask

689
00:33:03,085 --> 00:33:05,165
Speaker 1: you both a quick question about her, because I'm not

690
00:33:05,205 --> 00:33:08,405
Speaker 1: familiar with her, she clearly is inspiring incredibly strong feelings

691
00:33:08,445 --> 00:33:11,245
Speaker 1: in people, both positive and negative. What is it about

692
00:33:11,285 --> 00:33:12,605
Speaker 1: her that broke through.

693
00:33:12,685 --> 00:33:15,285
Speaker 3: In twenty twenty and beyond that was so different from

694
00:33:15,285 --> 00:33:17,685
Speaker 3: all the other children's entertainers? For me, it was that

695
00:33:17,805 --> 00:33:21,445
Speaker 3: I had my daughter during COVID, So Miss Rachel's voice

696
00:33:21,605 --> 00:33:24,765
Speaker 3: face was with me in my darkest moments quite literally,

697
00:33:24,885 --> 00:33:27,405
Speaker 3: like in the dark with my daughter when I couldn't

698
00:33:27,445 --> 00:33:29,844
Speaker 3: settle her with you know, colic and reflux and all

699
00:33:29,885 --> 00:33:32,285
Speaker 3: the things. Miss Rachel was the answer to that. So

700
00:33:32,325 --> 00:33:36,445
Speaker 3: I think you tie her to yourself in some sort

701
00:33:36,485 --> 00:33:38,805
Speaker 3: of you know, she's my savior in this situation.

702
00:33:39,005 --> 00:33:42,245
Speaker 2: Interesting your example, right, because as you were saying, Amelia, so,

703
00:33:42,325 --> 00:33:44,685
Speaker 2: I think that she only started making these videos in

704
00:33:44,805 --> 00:33:48,765
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, twenty twenty nineteen, and then something that she

705
00:33:48,765 --> 00:33:52,285
Speaker 2: couldn't control, which was the pandemic, happened, and that is

706
00:33:52,325 --> 00:33:56,165
Speaker 2: when her star just rose enormously.

707
00:33:56,365 --> 00:33:59,605
Speaker 3: Why her as opposed to other children's entertainers? What was

708
00:33:59,645 --> 00:34:01,925
Speaker 3: it about her communication style? For instance?

709
00:34:02,245 --> 00:34:05,245
Speaker 2: I think it is about the fact that what she

710
00:34:05,485 --> 00:34:09,844
Speaker 2: does is educational. She has a master's degree in music education.

711
00:34:10,404 --> 00:34:13,965
Speaker 2: She sings, she's all about nunciation and that origin story

712
00:34:14,005 --> 00:34:16,005
Speaker 2: you told of how her son was one and didn't

713
00:34:16,045 --> 00:34:18,764
Speaker 2: have any words, yet she made these videos to help

714
00:34:18,805 --> 00:34:21,805
Speaker 2: him with language. And I think that, as we were

715
00:34:21,844 --> 00:34:23,844
Speaker 2: saying before, there's this sense that if a screen is on,

716
00:34:23,924 --> 00:34:26,725
Speaker 2: it should be enridging or it should be educational. It

717
00:34:26,884 --> 00:34:30,285
Speaker 2: was a guilt free way for people to have their

718
00:34:30,364 --> 00:34:31,285
Speaker 2: child exactly.

719
00:34:31,364 --> 00:34:34,485
Speaker 1: And my daughter learned sign language before she could speak

720
00:34:34,604 --> 00:34:37,644
Speaker 1: from Miss Rachel. We learned it from Miss Rachel. So

721
00:34:37,725 --> 00:34:40,084
Speaker 1: we started doing it because she was doing it, and

722
00:34:40,125 --> 00:34:42,444
Speaker 1: it felt like, oh, at least if I've got the

723
00:34:42,444 --> 00:34:45,324
Speaker 1: screen on. As Jesse said, it's something useful. It's something

724
00:34:45,364 --> 00:34:47,924
Speaker 1: that's helping her with her speech. It's helping her with

725
00:34:48,044 --> 00:34:50,364
Speaker 1: songs that we can't remember from where we were young.

726
00:34:50,805 --> 00:34:53,884
Speaker 1: That I think was the magnetism of her. I think

727
00:34:53,924 --> 00:34:54,404
Speaker 1: that's the.

728
00:34:54,325 --> 00:34:57,844
Speaker 3: Missing puzzle piece I needed to understand this story, because

729
00:34:58,645 --> 00:35:02,924
Speaker 3: the idea that she's helping children learn makes her very

730
00:35:02,964 --> 00:35:06,204
Speaker 3: different as a figure to someone like say Blippy. Yeah,

731
00:35:06,404 --> 00:35:11,044
Speaker 3: mister Blippy is not helping people children to learn, largely

732
00:35:11,205 --> 00:35:16,124
Speaker 3: cavorting through ridiculous scenarios and driving parents mad. And I

733
00:35:16,205 --> 00:35:19,444
Speaker 3: wonder if that's part of why a parents who love

734
00:35:19,444 --> 00:35:22,404
Speaker 3: missus Rachel love her so much, and b why she

735
00:35:22,645 --> 00:35:25,444
Speaker 3: feels so strongly that there's a through line with what

736
00:35:25,484 --> 00:35:28,444
Speaker 3: she's doing to help children learn and how she's communicating

737
00:35:28,484 --> 00:35:31,765
Speaker 3: to their parents on Instagram about what she feels as

738
00:35:31,805 --> 00:35:34,765
Speaker 3: an urgent political situation that she wants them to learn about.

739
00:35:35,044 --> 00:35:37,964
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really true. And I suppose if the children

740
00:35:38,044 --> 00:35:41,884
Speaker 2: are absorbing her through YouTube, then that feels like a

741
00:35:42,084 --> 00:35:46,524
Speaker 2: siloed experience. And then people, I guess, are seeing that

742
00:35:46,645 --> 00:35:50,925
Speaker 2: this smiling, chirpy woman who not only taught my child

743
00:35:50,924 --> 00:35:53,805
Speaker 2: but taught me a lot about parenting, taught me about

744
00:35:53,924 --> 00:35:56,285
Speaker 2: enunciating or what words to do, or are we doing colors?

745
00:35:56,285 --> 00:35:57,045
Speaker 1: Are we doing shapes?

746
00:35:57,044 --> 00:36:01,284
Speaker 2: Are we doing all of these things? What's difficult about this,

747
00:36:01,604 --> 00:36:03,604
Speaker 2: you know, crisis as well, is that what someone says

748
00:36:03,604 --> 00:36:06,204
Speaker 2: and what someone hears are not often the same thing,

749
00:36:06,245 --> 00:36:08,364
Speaker 2: because it is a very loaded There's a lot of history,

750
00:36:08,364 --> 00:36:10,844
Speaker 2: that a lot of context, there's a lot of trauma,

751
00:36:10,924 --> 00:36:14,565
Speaker 2: and so I think that that two is people feeling

752
00:36:15,044 --> 00:36:18,125
Speaker 2: betrayed by something that has been shared.

753
00:36:18,364 --> 00:36:20,805
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think we expect a lot more from

754
00:36:20,964 --> 00:36:23,404
Speaker 1: anyone in the public eye now than we ever did.

755
00:36:23,444 --> 00:36:25,444
Speaker 1: I don't know if we would have known the personal

756
00:36:25,484 --> 00:36:28,084
Speaker 1: lives of the og Wiggles, that alone their stance on

757
00:36:28,165 --> 00:36:31,805
Speaker 1: geopolitical issues back when we were growing up, but so true.

758
00:36:31,844 --> 00:36:34,325
Speaker 1: Now there's so much more information out there, and I

759
00:36:34,364 --> 00:36:38,125
Speaker 1: think it is definitely worse for women in the public eye.

760
00:36:38,165 --> 00:36:41,364
Speaker 1: Like Taylor Swift was criticized for not backing Kamala Harris

761
00:36:41,404 --> 00:36:44,964
Speaker 1: quick enough in the US election. Chris Brown is currently

762
00:36:44,964 --> 00:36:47,444
Speaker 1: on a world tour even though he's found guilty of

763
00:36:47,484 --> 00:36:49,805
Speaker 1: domestic violence charges. We don't seem bothered by what his

764
00:36:49,884 --> 00:36:53,085
Speaker 1: views are on anything. Like there's just a very double

765
00:36:53,125 --> 00:36:55,565
Speaker 1: standard there for women. That's true.

766
00:36:56,285 --> 00:36:59,205
Speaker 2: I do think though, that we've got the Wiggles on

767
00:36:59,325 --> 00:37:05,244
Speaker 2: sometimes and my obsession with Emma n Lucky's marriage has

768
00:37:05,285 --> 00:37:07,364
Speaker 2: just gone to ridiculous. And it wasn't just me, it

769
00:37:07,404 --> 00:37:10,044
Speaker 2: was also Luca. We had a week where Luna was

770
00:37:10,044 --> 00:37:13,604
Speaker 2: second was on constantly and I swear we were hallucinating.

771
00:37:13,604 --> 00:37:15,444
Speaker 2: We're in a weird state, and like we needed the

772
00:37:15,484 --> 00:37:17,404
Speaker 2: wedding photos and then we needed to know why they

773
00:37:17,524 --> 00:37:19,285
Speaker 2: broke up. And now Lockie has a new family and

774
00:37:19,325 --> 00:37:22,125
Speaker 2: who is she? And I can tell you what Emma

775
00:37:22,125 --> 00:37:23,924
Speaker 2: did her PhD in and then I had to go

776
00:37:23,964 --> 00:37:25,364
Speaker 2: down the route of like is it a wig or

777
00:37:25,404 --> 00:37:27,564
Speaker 2: is it her real hair? Like if I saw Emma

778
00:37:27,604 --> 00:37:29,484
Speaker 2: walking down the street, I'd be like, hey, Amma, how

779
00:37:29,524 --> 00:37:32,084
Speaker 2: you going? Like nice yellow bow? I would just have

780
00:37:32,245 --> 00:37:36,645
Speaker 2: so much She feels like a member of my family,

781
00:37:36,685 --> 00:37:38,964
Speaker 2: which is unlike anyone else I can see him through

782
00:37:38,964 --> 00:37:39,364
Speaker 2: a screen.

783
00:37:40,325 --> 00:37:43,045
Speaker 1: I'm also thinking about the fact that for missus Rachel,

784
00:37:43,165 --> 00:37:46,805
Speaker 1: she has the YouTube channel for kids, She's not posting

785
00:37:46,844 --> 00:37:48,085
Speaker 1: this on the YouTube channel.

786
00:37:48,125 --> 00:37:51,285
Speaker 3: She's posting this on the Instagram. And last time I checked,

787
00:37:51,325 --> 00:37:54,805
Speaker 3: most three year olds don't have Instagram, so there is

788
00:37:54,844 --> 00:37:57,404
Speaker 3: a difference between those platforms. On the other hand, to

789
00:37:57,524 --> 00:37:59,805
Speaker 3: argue with myself, when I found out that Taking care

790
00:37:59,844 --> 00:38:02,484
Speaker 3: of Babies was a Trump supporter, she had never told

791
00:38:02,524 --> 00:38:05,325
Speaker 3: me that on the Taking care of Babies sleep Instagram,

792
00:38:06,245 --> 00:38:07,645
Speaker 3: So why was it my business?

793
00:38:07,685 --> 00:38:09,844
Speaker 1: Why did I care if she was doing it over

794
00:38:09,884 --> 00:38:11,565
Speaker 1: on her set personal account.

795
00:38:11,924 --> 00:38:15,405
Speaker 2: I think it's because you start to get your guard

796
00:38:15,484 --> 00:38:19,044
Speaker 2: up about whether that is informing the information or the

797
00:38:19,125 --> 00:38:20,964
Speaker 2: content that she's providing to the children.

798
00:38:21,084 --> 00:38:22,604
Speaker 1: I think that that's what you start.

799
00:38:22,364 --> 00:38:25,325
Speaker 2: To go are you brainwashing my child? And then you

800
00:38:25,364 --> 00:38:27,684
Speaker 2: start to get like a bit paranoid about it. And

801
00:38:27,725 --> 00:38:29,805
Speaker 2: it's interesting that Miss Rachel has had to turn off

802
00:38:29,844 --> 00:38:34,444
Speaker 2: comments on Instagram and YouTube so under her teeth brushing song,

803
00:38:34,924 --> 00:38:38,285
Speaker 2: the level of trolling was so bad that she had

804
00:38:38,325 --> 00:38:40,484
Speaker 2: to just go, no, I'm not taking this on.

805
00:38:40,685 --> 00:38:40,884
Speaker 1: Yeah.

806
00:38:40,924 --> 00:38:43,644
Speaker 3: There is though, that fear, isn't there, that maybe this

807
00:38:43,765 --> 00:38:45,524
Speaker 3: sleep advice is tinged.

808
00:38:45,205 --> 00:38:48,684
Speaker 1: With maganists makes you sort of start thinking about all

809
00:38:48,725 --> 00:38:49,805
Speaker 1: of them exactly.

810
00:38:50,524 --> 00:38:54,044
Speaker 2: It's time for recommendations, Stacy, what have you got for us?

811
00:38:54,205 --> 00:38:57,124
Speaker 1: I feel quite smug about this recommendation, so imparting it

812
00:38:57,165 --> 00:38:58,964
Speaker 1: so you can all feel smug when you recommend it

813
00:38:59,004 --> 00:39:01,405
Speaker 1: to someone else. So my daughter gets a free book

814
00:39:01,444 --> 00:39:05,765
Speaker 1: every month from Dolly Parton. What the Dolly Parton sends

815
00:39:05,805 --> 00:39:08,164
Speaker 1: my well, not personally, I imagine she has someone at

816
00:39:08,165 --> 00:39:10,644
Speaker 1: the postal service that does this for her. But she

817
00:39:10,884 --> 00:39:13,604
Speaker 1: has a free book gifting service. They have it all

818
00:39:13,604 --> 00:39:16,004
Speaker 1: around the world. It's in the US, UK, everywhere, and

819
00:39:16,044 --> 00:39:18,005
Speaker 1: you can just sign your child up and they'll send

820
00:39:18,084 --> 00:39:21,004
Speaker 1: you out in the mail a age appropriate book for

821
00:39:21,004 --> 00:39:24,724
Speaker 1: your child each month. That is brilliant. It's the best.

822
00:39:24,844 --> 00:39:27,364
Speaker 1: My daughter loves getting mail every month. I love that.

823
00:39:27,484 --> 00:39:29,165
Speaker 1: I don't have to buy her a book every month,

824
00:39:29,285 --> 00:39:30,884
Speaker 1: like it's the best service. So you just have to

825
00:39:30,924 --> 00:39:34,045
Speaker 1: find out if it's in your little area. It's called

826
00:39:34,245 --> 00:39:39,244
Speaker 1: Dolly Parton's Imagination Library. I love Dolly Parton. She's good Egg.

827
00:39:39,484 --> 00:39:41,164
Speaker 1: She's a very good egg. You couldn't love her more.

828
00:39:41,165 --> 00:39:43,645
Speaker 1: And then she goes and does that. Amelia, what's your recommendation?

829
00:39:44,165 --> 00:39:46,445
Speaker 3: My recommendation is to do with learning how to read.

830
00:39:46,765 --> 00:39:49,004
Speaker 3: I have a child, two children learning how to read,

831
00:39:49,084 --> 00:39:54,525
Speaker 3: and the books that the school sends home are interminably

832
00:39:54,604 --> 00:39:59,284
Speaker 3: boring and I'm not inspiring a love of reading. My brother,

833
00:39:59,364 --> 00:40:02,205
Speaker 3: who lives in the UK, turned me on to Julia

834
00:40:02,245 --> 00:40:06,844
Speaker 3: Donaldson's Songbirds Phonics Storytelling Collection. Julia Donaldson, you may know

835
00:40:07,004 --> 00:40:11,765
Speaker 3: from such classics as Gruffalo and Zo. She has written

836
00:40:11,805 --> 00:40:15,964
Speaker 3: sixty books where almost every word is phonically decodable, and

837
00:40:16,004 --> 00:40:17,964
Speaker 3: they are also somehow interesting stories.

838
00:40:18,084 --> 00:40:19,245
Speaker 2: Okay, what do you mean phonically?

839
00:40:19,964 --> 00:40:22,805
Speaker 1: Yes, I can't get into it with you. You wouldn't understand it,

840
00:40:22,844 --> 00:40:26,685
Speaker 1: but we're not at the stage you won't understand. But

841
00:40:26,725 --> 00:40:28,765
Speaker 1: the point is there are books for kids learning how

842
00:40:28,765 --> 00:40:31,284
Speaker 1: to read that are actually fun for them to read. Oh,

843
00:40:31,325 --> 00:40:32,164
Speaker 1: I love it all.

844
00:40:32,285 --> 00:40:36,084
Speaker 2: Right, Okay, my recommendation is similar to yours, Stacey. There

845
00:40:36,125 --> 00:40:38,604
Speaker 2: are kind of different versions in different states, but look

846
00:40:38,645 --> 00:40:40,044
Speaker 2: up to see if there's one near you. But in

847
00:40:40,125 --> 00:40:42,765
Speaker 2: Sydney there's one called Bubbadesk, and I am recommending this

848
00:40:42,884 --> 00:40:46,484
Speaker 2: place because this is where my twin sister essentially just

849
00:40:46,524 --> 00:40:49,285
Speaker 2: wrote her book and it is a coworking space with

850
00:40:49,404 --> 00:40:51,964
Speaker 2: more and more people sort of freelancing or even if

851
00:40:51,964 --> 00:40:55,325
Speaker 2: you're on maternity leave or you work three days a

852
00:40:55,364 --> 00:40:57,924
Speaker 2: week or whatever, and there is a day or an

853
00:40:57,924 --> 00:41:00,364
Speaker 2: afternoon where you need to get some work done and

854
00:41:00,404 --> 00:41:03,524
Speaker 2: you don't have child care options, you can take your

855
00:41:03,604 --> 00:41:05,285
Speaker 2: child to Bubbadesk.

856
00:41:05,524 --> 00:41:07,644
Speaker 1: There's another one in if you're going to say what

857
00:41:07,685 --> 00:41:09,844
Speaker 1: I think you're going to say, and you can drop

858
00:41:09,964 --> 00:41:11,565
Speaker 1: the child off and work.

859
00:41:11,725 --> 00:41:14,004
Speaker 2: Yes, So it's like a child like they're right there,

860
00:41:14,044 --> 00:41:16,805
Speaker 2: they're upstairs. You get a little monitor so you can

861
00:41:16,844 --> 00:41:19,085
Speaker 2: just see what they're doing. They have like a system

862
00:41:19,084 --> 00:41:22,884
Speaker 2: where they'll be like Luna's playing with a block, Luna

863
00:41:22,964 --> 00:41:25,484
Speaker 2: just date her lunch and I'm like lies, they like

864
00:41:27,444 --> 00:41:33,325
Speaker 2: you having tunea morning bullshit, and then they'll have like

865
00:41:33,604 --> 00:41:35,644
Speaker 2: you can, yeah, get the little baby monitor, see what

866
00:41:35,685 --> 00:41:37,765
Speaker 2: she's doing. If you want, you can go up and

867
00:41:37,844 --> 00:41:40,604
Speaker 2: check on them. I often find better not to. They're

868
00:41:40,645 --> 00:41:44,325
Speaker 2: just like mums here what. But it's brilliant and it's

869
00:41:44,444 --> 00:41:46,805
Speaker 2: all parents that are kind of doing it. There's even

870
00:41:46,884 --> 00:41:48,564
Speaker 2: the Bubbajesque that I went to. There was a gym

871
00:41:48,604 --> 00:41:50,245
Speaker 2: attached to it because they were like, you can go

872
00:41:50,325 --> 00:41:50,684
Speaker 2: to I.

873
00:41:50,725 --> 00:41:52,844
Speaker 1: Don't have any excuses, like I know.

874
00:41:53,044 --> 00:41:55,124
Speaker 2: So it's really really good and there is an equal

875
00:41:55,125 --> 00:41:57,164
Speaker 2: amount what I love about it too, equal amount.

876
00:41:56,844 --> 00:41:58,124
Speaker 1: Of dads and moms there.

877
00:41:58,444 --> 00:42:01,124
Speaker 2: So look up at co working space with kids. I

878
00:42:01,125 --> 00:42:03,844
Speaker 2: didn't even know they existed. Thank you so much for

879
00:42:03,924 --> 00:42:07,045
Speaker 2: joining us today. We will be back next Saturday.

880
00:42:07,044 --> 00:42:16,484
Speaker 1: Bye yeah