Speaker 1: In anyone's great success story, there is always there's always
Speaker 1: hard work, but there's always luck. There's so many people
Speaker 1: trying to do the thing that we're trying to do.
Speaker 1: We're searching for these binary answers for everything. But everyone
Speaker 1: likes different things and that's okay. Just find your person
Speaker 1: that likes the similar things to you. If you need
Speaker 1: to talk about anything with your partner or with your friend,
Speaker 1: if you go in with an inquisitive mindset, going with curiosity,
Speaker 1: you can't lose.
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy
Speaker 2: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what
Speaker 2: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but
Speaker 2: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than
Speaker 2: one way. So this is a platform to hear and
Speaker 2: explore the stories of those who found lives.
Speaker 3: They adore, the good, bad and ugly.
Speaker 2: The best and worst day will bear all the facets
Speaker 2: of seizing your yay. I'm Sarah Davidson or a spoonful
Speaker 2: of Sarah, a lawyer turned fu entrepreneur who swapped the
Speaker 2: suits and heels to co found Matcha Maiden and Matcha
Speaker 2: Milk Bark CZA is a series of conversations on finding
Speaker 2: a life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge,
Speaker 2: joy and.
Speaker 3: Fulfillment along the way.
Speaker 2: Hope you're having a wonderful week lovely neighborhood and to
Speaker 2: those of you I've been lucky enough to meet in
Speaker 2: person on the Keeper Cleaner Tour in Adelaide and Auckland
Speaker 2: over the past couple of weekends, you have absolutely made
Speaker 2: my year. It is always such a pleasure to meet
Speaker 2: neighborhood members out in the wild. We're heading to Perth
Speaker 2: this coming weekend for the final leg of Kick Tour
Speaker 2: this year, so hopefully I get to meet some more
Speaker 2: of you there. Please send me a DM if you're
Speaker 2: coming along. I don't want to miss any of you.
Speaker 2: If any of you are going to be there, speaking
Speaker 2: of traveling into state, if anyone needs a little chuckle
Speaker 2: or a bit of extra ya this week. Another random
Speaker 2: tidbit that happened in the past couple of days is
Speaker 2: I made one of my unhinged videos on social media,
Speaker 2: which you know I love to do, sharing what I
Speaker 2: think is the perfect analogy between Melbourne and Sydney involving
Speaker 2: them being sisters, which a went viral over the past
Speaker 2: couple of days, which is hilarious in itself, but b
Speaker 2: sparked a comment conversation that was a thousand times funnier,
Speaker 2: Like literally thousands of people weighing in on how they
Speaker 2: see Melbourne and Sydney, or how they see all the
Speaker 2: other states and how they fit into the family tree
Speaker 2: of Australia. It's just so funny. It's better than Netflix.
Speaker 2: Just going through the comments is the best thing that's
Speaker 2: ever happened. So go and check that out if you
Speaker 2: need a laugh. But that is not my point for today.
Speaker 2: It's been a pretty busy time lately, obviously, but in
Speaker 2: the days that I was in Melbourne, I was lucky
Speaker 2: enough to catch the legendary Rob Mills to record an
Speaker 2: episode in celebration of his brand new book, Putting On
Speaker 2: a Show. I only got my advanced copy about twenty
Speaker 2: four hours beforehand, and I kind of thought i'd give
Speaker 2: it a quick once over to prepare these questions, and
Speaker 2: that i'd go back and read it in more detail
Speaker 2: at a later time. But I could not put it down.
Speaker 2: I read the entire thing in depth in one go.
Speaker 2: It's such a fabulous and very much needed exploration of
Speaker 2: the average Aussie bloke, our shifting and sometimes distorted perception
Speaker 2: of masculinity. With Rob's beautiful knack for storytelling and personal
Speaker 2: anecdotes weave throughout, there is a reason this man has
Speaker 2: been so successful in showbiz. He is warm, witty, vulnerable,
Speaker 2: honest and open minded, all of which comes through in
Speaker 2: the book. I'll let him tell you more about it himself,
Speaker 2: but we also get to cover the parts of his
Speaker 2: pathier that you might not have heard as much about
Speaker 2: between the Australian Idol and Paris Hilton related headlines. You know,
Speaker 2: I love getting into all the chapters we know much
Speaker 2: less about, and Rob was very obliging and a joy
Speaker 2: to listen to. I also definitely did that thing where
Speaker 2: I wanted to cover so much all at once. Perhaps
Speaker 2: I should have read the book not in twice so
Speaker 2: much detail beforehand, so that I wouldn't have so many
Speaker 2: questions to ask in one episode. So I do probably
Speaker 2: jump around a bit crazily, but hopefully you enjoy. Nonetheless,
Speaker 2: just a very quick content warning as well. We do
Speaker 2: touch on mental health and suicide briefly in the conversation,
Speaker 2: so listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 3: Melsy, Welcome to seize thee.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I've been watching from Afar
Speaker 1: and it's delightful. There was a lot of yay in
Speaker 1: your world, a lot of yay lovely humans. I'm glad
Speaker 1: I'm now considered.
Speaker 3: A Yaya, part of the yighborhood.
Speaker 1: That's how we refer to that community, a yighborhood. I
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good one, you know. I love a pun.
Speaker 2: I can't walk past one, can't walk past an opportunity.
Speaker 2: It is such a privilege and pleasure to have you here.
Speaker 2: I've literally just spent the last twenty four hours pouring
Speaker 2: over your brand new book. I got a copy I
Speaker 2: think twenty five hours ago, and I was like, I
Speaker 2: can't wait. I need to have it moved. I've read
Speaker 2: the entire thing.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I really appreciate that. Yeah, it was a
Speaker 1: couple of years of writing, researching, working together with Paul Connolly,
Speaker 1: who's just incredible. So many great conversations with him, back
Speaker 1: and forth with the editor towards the end as well,
Speaker 1: what to keep, what to throw out. He was amazing
Speaker 1: and instrumental in putting all my thoughts and feelings together
Speaker 1: and yeah, just letting me feel like I'm in a
Speaker 1: safe space, I suppose, in order to let it all out.
Speaker 2: I think what's so beautiful is the book itself and
Speaker 2: the way it's written and how much personal anecdote is
Speaker 2: interwoven with you know, really important statistics and science and research.
Speaker 3: Is that you've created a safe space for other people.
Speaker 2: I think in sharing your story so openly and vulnerably,
Speaker 2: I think you'll create a real safe space for people
Speaker 2: who otherwise maybe haven't had one before.
Speaker 1: So it's really beautiful. That's kind of thing, that's the
Speaker 1: kind of the point of the book, but also kind
Speaker 1: of the point of life. Like, we have horrible suicide
Speaker 1: rate in Austraia, especially for men. So I wanted to go, well,
Speaker 1: all right, how do how do we get them to
Speaker 1: get to a place where they feel like they're not alone,
Speaker 1: they feel like they do belong, they can talk about
Speaker 1: this stuff. So if I held anything back, I didn't
Speaker 1: feel like I'm not walking the walk, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not walking the talk, so that I had better let
Speaker 1: everything out there and be vulnerable and create enough space.
Speaker 1: It's kind of what you do when you having conversation
Speaker 1: with the mate. If you create the space to be
Speaker 1: vulnerable have a vulnerable chat. Then they feel like, all right,
Speaker 1: well they've showed me something. Yeah, I'll show you something,
Speaker 1: you know, let's kind of it's part of how it works.
Speaker 3: Seven minutes later, you're a volunteers a position on the
Speaker 3: floor together.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful, embracing with your best mates. It's great, it's great.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm so excited to get into the book, and
Speaker 2: particularly the fact that I think one of the most
Speaker 2: amazing parts of having a podcast is that this is
Speaker 2: so fresh for you. This is like twenty four hours
Speaker 2: after you've seen your first copy, and I love that
Speaker 2: in a year's time you'll be able to listen back
Speaker 2: to how nervous you were and all your first impressions.
Speaker 3: About how it feels.
Speaker 2: But first, it would be remiss with me not to
Speaker 2: ask you the icebreaker, but be just talk very quickly
Speaker 2: through a couple of the dots that had to connect
Speaker 2: for you to get here, because I think people often
Speaker 2: walk into your life at this chapter, even the Australian
Speaker 2: Idol chapter, like big chapters of your life that are
Speaker 2: much more publicized, and forget that like once upon a
Speaker 2: time there was a little Rob Mills who had no
Speaker 2: idea how it was going to work out, if it
Speaker 2: was going to work out which direction.
Speaker 1: There's an older young Miles to still think he's got
Speaker 1: no idea what more so now I no can idea.
Speaker 2: But I think tracing through those sort of steps in
Speaker 2: the staircase is really reassuring for other people that now
Speaker 2: you may have, you know, a lot of introspection, self
Speaker 2: awareness and joy and fulfillment. But it doesn't always happen overnight.
Speaker 2: In fact, it never does.
Speaker 1: No, absolutely not.
Speaker 2: So very first question to break through the ice, especially
Speaker 2: as an actor, TV host, singer, songwriter, it's pretty glam
Speaker 2: on the outside. Sure, what's something very down to earth
Speaker 2: about you? Like the most relatable? What would Tunny say
Speaker 2: is the most relatable thing about you?
Speaker 1: I've got a weird habit. I have a toothpick habit.
Speaker 1: In fact, how weird. I don't actually have one on
Speaker 1: me right now, but I always have one in the
Speaker 1: car door. It's like one of those little pixture things,
Speaker 1: no way, like it's.
Speaker 2: Just a straight one, or like the actual dental things
Speaker 2: that have like.
Speaker 1: The flosstick, the flastic flastic. I love them, obsessed with them.
Speaker 1: I found out a few years ago that they existed,
Speaker 1: you know, like with floss, you have to wrap it
Speaker 1: around your fingers. You're drooling on your hands trying to
Speaker 1: put your fingers in your mouth and get through all
Speaker 1: the flastick. Probably not very environmentally friendly.
Speaker 3: But definitely disposaball single use. But that's fine, single use
Speaker 3: of that's disgusting and amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's my thing. I love it. I can't
Speaker 1: go on stage if I haven't lossed. I can't do
Speaker 1: a gig. So I've flushed before I got here.
Speaker 3: No ginger badis over there.
Speaker 1: Super healthy gums. Yeah, I love dental hygiene.
Speaker 3: I love it. That's the best.
Speaker 2: That's definitely down to earth And strangely, Nick has recently
Speaker 2: got on the dental floss pick. That's how I knew
Speaker 2: what they were. Bandwagon and we were recently. I can't
Speaker 2: even remember we were overseas.
Speaker 3: We're in Italy.
Speaker 1: Don't tell me.
Speaker 3: You drop that into the conversation.
Speaker 1: I was watching your Instagram. It's just thank you.
Speaker 3: In Italy.
Speaker 2: He was like, I just I can't. I didn't bring
Speaker 2: my flow sticks, Like, what am I going to do?
Speaker 2: So he went to a pharmacy and bought this hundred packs.
Speaker 1: Done. I've done that on a night out with friends, Like,
Speaker 1: what do you do with the hundred? I just need one.
Speaker 3: I couldn't just right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not like a one hundred. It's one hundred or
Speaker 2: nothing that I need one. I can't go zero.
Speaker 3: It's crazy.
Speaker 1: Is that hating about to people? They're like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is interesting. I think that's good because that's where a
Speaker 1: lot of your bad breath comes from.
Speaker 3: It is us.
Speaker 1: It's from food that's stuck in hard to reach places.
Speaker 1: So just guys, get on to it. You won't regret it.
Speaker 1: I expect some dms.
Speaker 2: It is quite a game changer. Yeah, neighborhood, this is
Speaker 2: a challenge. Go and get a gentle plastic and then
Speaker 2: report back to Melsy.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, don't do worry about the book.
Speaker 1: Just get get some old steak back.
Speaker 2: There Another really lovely, down to earth thing about you
Speaker 2: that I need to mention. We've already spoken about it
Speaker 2: quickly today is you won't probably find all the things
Speaker 2: you'd find in your back teeth. It's probably not seafood
Speaker 2: because you and Georgie don't really eat seafood. But this
Speaker 2: is how kind Milsy is. He found out that near
Speaker 2: his house a new restaurant. I think a friend had
Speaker 2: opened the restaurant and to be a beautiful, supportive friend
Speaker 2: and to be a lovely host who then invited us
Speaker 2: to experience this beautiful restaurant as well. He took us
Speaker 2: out for dinner, and they don't eat seafood, but the
Speaker 2: entire menu is only seafood. It was like, and I
Speaker 2: didn't realize this until like halfway through the dinner. You
Speaker 2: were like, yeah, we don't really eat seafood. And there's
Speaker 2: like a smallest board of the ocean on the table.
Speaker 1: It looked delicious for you guys.
Speaker 3: The level of kindness that what did you guys eat?
Speaker 1: Like chips had some pollentid chips or something. And I
Speaker 1: think there was some bread.
Speaker 3: Some fad some bread passed around like great meal.
Speaker 1: Like a snack. It was some lovely wine as well.
Speaker 3: The best.
Speaker 1: Still a great time. It's all about the conversation. It's
Speaker 1: all about the chat.
Speaker 2: Oh but I mean that's just a snippet of how
Speaker 2: kind and thoughtful and lovely you guys both are. So yeah,
Speaker 2: I just felt like I had to bring that up front.
Speaker 1: Also had to find a partner that doesn't like seafood
Speaker 1: very compatible. Yeah, very compatible.
Speaker 3: Is that when you knew like yes, was dining it's
Speaker 3: un compatible.
Speaker 1: That's all we need to tick. You're got to tick
Speaker 1: some of the box. So that was like, that's I
Speaker 1: just need one.
Speaker 2: All right, your way to yay. This is a bit
Speaker 2: where we kind of quickly go through your path yay.
Speaker 2: And I feel like, because you do have a public profile,
Speaker 2: a lot of information is available. Elis where and I
Speaker 2: want to spend most of the time.
Speaker 3: In your book.
Speaker 2: But just quickly, did Young Rob playing Sunday sessions at
Speaker 2: Red Eagle Hotel in Albert Park, yep, ever think he
Speaker 2: would be an author?
Speaker 1: Absolutely not? No, absolutely, absolutely no way. Young Rob was
Speaker 1: eighteen singing at the Red Eagle Hotel, the Monash Hotel,
Speaker 1: notting Hill Hotel, Anglis Tavern, not Yeah breakers in Preston. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was singing all across Melbourne in my little cover band,
Speaker 1: whether it was acoustic duo trio kind of thing or
Speaker 1: we're in a full band as well, cricket clubs and
Speaker 1: footag clubs. That was I never thought I would be
Speaker 1: writing books, Absolutely not. I just loved performing, I suppose,
Speaker 1: but I suppose it's it's not too far out of stretch.
Speaker 1: It's just story telle. Like really, when you think of it,
Speaker 1: singing songs, even when I was sing covers as a kid,
Speaker 1: I was always trying to find the story. I didn't
Speaker 1: even think about it. I was just always trying to
Speaker 1: sing what the story was of the song, you know,
Speaker 1: like even if it's a pop song, there's still a
Speaker 1: story that goes with that boy mets girl or like
Speaker 1: hardship or whatever whatever that the song is. I was
Speaker 1: always trying to sing the meaning of the song, and
Speaker 1: which ime.
Speaker 3: I sing it that's so nice?
Speaker 1: Yeah, subconsciously or whatever. But so maybe just always been
Speaker 1: a storytyp.
Speaker 2: That's the opposite of me I was singing. I think
Speaker 2: back all the time to the lyrics that I used
Speaker 2: to sing when I was like thirteen, not having any
Speaker 2: clue about the story of the meaning. Thank god, I
Speaker 2: had no idea what I was singing, because I'm like
Speaker 2: my poor parents listening to me sing about, like, oh,
Speaker 2: just horrible.
Speaker 1: What are the kids now singing a bit of wow
Speaker 1: to their parents?
Speaker 3: What really wonderful?
Speaker 1: Isn't it? Wet and Gushi, Yeah, he's the new version.
Speaker 2: Speaking of wet angushy, I hear about you first discovered
Speaker 2: for mega man by being overheard in urinal. I mean
Speaker 2: talk about things coming out of you know, left of center. Yeah,
Speaker 2: opportunities landing in your laps.
Speaker 1: The footy club. I played football. All I wanted to
Speaker 1: do as a kid was be a footballer, So I
Speaker 1: wanted to play AFL. I worked really hard. It turns
Speaker 1: out I wasn't very good. I wasn't good enough.
Speaker 3: That's a shame. Yeah, that's a real shame.
Speaker 1: But I was okay at singing. And I was in
Speaker 1: the toilets one night there was a band playing and
Speaker 1: I was having a having a whizz at the urinal
Speaker 1: and this guy heard me singing and he's like, is
Speaker 1: he pretty good singing? I'm like, a all right. He's like,
Speaker 1: my brother's in a band. Do you want to come
Speaker 1: down to rehearsal. They're looking for a singer. So it's like, yeah, sure.
Speaker 3: I've been discovered in a urinal.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So I started doing that. My dad was a
Speaker 1: bit nervous that I'd be hanging out with older men
Speaker 1: in a in a rehearsal room and stuff, so he
Speaker 1: drove me there and watched the rehearsal and chaperone, Yeah,
Speaker 1: a chaperone, even though I had my license and a car,
Speaker 1: so okay, cute, but yeah, so I did that for
Speaker 1: it was three or four years with those guys, and
Speaker 1: then then I did astraanadol straight after that.
Speaker 2: So one of the things I think is so interesting
Speaker 2: when you speak to anyone in kind of the creative
Speaker 2: industry who's an artist, is that there are so many
Speaker 2: of us who begin and in our younger years interested
Speaker 2: in music or performing, but it's very very rare. In fact,
Speaker 2: there's so much active dissuasion against going into a career
Speaker 2: in that industry because it's so competitive, because it's not
Speaker 2: an obvious straightforward pathway, it can be so hard, so
Speaker 2: very few people actually end up being able to make
Speaker 2: it a career. And I had no idea until read
Speaker 2: in the book that you actually started an electrical apprenticeship
Speaker 2: of all things, but then have been able to obviously
Speaker 2: make this your career. So I think the thing I
Speaker 2: like to hammer home to people is that most people
Speaker 2: have dabbled in a few different things, but that also,
Speaker 2: even though there might be a hugely competitive industry or
Speaker 2: just a few places.
Speaker 3: Like, someone's got to make it. So how did you
Speaker 3: get through?
Speaker 2: Did you have any dissuasion or people being like, you
Speaker 2: know that's going to be really hard for you, or
Speaker 2: did you just know that this was you and you
Speaker 2: tried electrical stuff and then we're like no.
Speaker 1: So my dad was always like, you should have a
Speaker 1: trade or have a job behind you, just in case
Speaker 1: the music thing doesn't work out. Although I changed schools
Speaker 1: at the end of year ten to do in year
Speaker 1: eleven so I to do drama and music, turns out
Speaker 1: I got a D plus my singing exam, so very much.
Speaker 3: Like distinguished plus.
Speaker 1: E plus my oral exam in music. I dropped out
Speaker 1: of drama at the end of your eleven because I
Speaker 1: didn't think I was good enough and I felt like
Speaker 1: I got really nervous and I didn't want to put
Speaker 1: myself out there in front of people acting. Singing, I
Speaker 1: seemed to be fine, but for the exam I didn't
Speaker 1: really work hard enough at all, like on the songs
Speaker 1: that I had to learn for the syllabus, and I
Speaker 1: learn't really really really valuable lesson through high school you
Speaker 1: actually have to work hard to get results, Like, oh wow,
Speaker 1: that sucks. I didn't realize like that was a thing.
Speaker 3: My least favorite lesson in life it's kind of.
Speaker 1: Like you only get out what you put in, so rude,
Speaker 1: oh horrible, And I just had no work ethic. I
Speaker 1: hated school, didn't really like it, not hated, but just
Speaker 1: didn't really like it. I just felt like you had
Speaker 1: to go. Then I loved doing electrical work. I did
Speaker 1: it as a work experience kind of thing. So I
Speaker 1: went and did a pre apprenticeship. I've got an electric
Speaker 1: I got a job. Then I found out I was
Speaker 1: terribly color blind, which I sort of knew. I was
Speaker 1: a big colorblinde ye.
Speaker 3: And your brother was colorblind.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he wanted to be a cadet in the Air
Speaker 1: Force and didn't get into that because he was colorblind. Yeah.
Speaker 1: After being at Melbourne High he was super smart. And
Speaker 1: then just know it was a bit dismayed, I think
Speaker 1: from not doing that and then didn't really try much
Speaker 1: at high school. I think I kind of did the
Speaker 1: same things, like what's the point? What am I doing? Yeah,
Speaker 1: did heaps of jobs though after that, where there was
Speaker 1: mowing lawns at like disused mobile service stations. I put
Speaker 1: up signs at the airport and had a big advertising banners.
Speaker 1: I did that for a while. I was like all
Speaker 1: my mates were tradees, so I just did landscaping work.
Speaker 1: I did carpentry work, plastering, yeah, a bit of concreting.
Speaker 1: There's nothing that I haven't really, not one trade I
Speaker 1: haven't tried out. And then yeah, I just kept singing
Speaker 1: on the weekends and the man was going pretty well,
Speaker 1: and a friend of mine said, do you want to
Speaker 1: try it for this TV shot? My gosh, So I
Speaker 1: was always gigging, I suppose, yeah.
Speaker 3: Okay, and it's like in the background you were still
Speaker 3: doing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my thing. I was always gigging, but
Speaker 1: I was working like every day, and then I also
Speaker 1: working every weekend. So while everyone was at partying, I
Speaker 1: just worked, just trying to save up for a house
Speaker 1: or something.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, real sense of or goals, Yeah I had.
Speaker 1: I honestly, that's all I really wanted to do. I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, but what I was doing was not
Speaker 1: listening to myself at all during that time. I just
Speaker 1: put all my focus into work and did no self
Speaker 1: reflecting for ten fifteen years. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And that's like the exact underlying theme and philosophy is
Speaker 2: this show is swapping that sees the day mentality, which
Speaker 2: is not a bad thing. To work incredibly hard and
Speaker 2: have kind of financial metrics and goals or certain like
Speaker 2: linear goals for yourself, but when they're totally detached from
Speaker 2: your own fulfillment and the intersection of your talents and passions,
Speaker 2: like it doesn't really lead to a very happy life,
Speaker 2: even if on the outside it looks amazing. And I
Speaker 2: get really fascinated by the sliding doors moments in life
Speaker 2: that then sometimes give you an opportunity to be pulled
Speaker 2: out of that and back towards the thing that you
Speaker 2: really love. So I mean Australian I it was such
Speaker 2: a pivot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, huge, huge, It just made me realize, oh, I
Speaker 1: really love this. And I didn't just love the performing aspect.
Speaker 1: I mean, going from singing thirty songs a night in
Speaker 1: a pub band just singing just one song or half
Speaker 1: a song really like I'm in It and a half. I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is pretty good. But so I
Speaker 1: had so much more free time. Yeah, so I learned
Speaker 1: how the camera operators are working. I went and sat
Speaker 1: up in the desk in the studio with the director
Speaker 1: and learned what they did and learn like spoke to
Speaker 1: the producers about what they were kind of doing with
Speaker 1: each of us like the character. We were characters really,
Speaker 1: you know. We were the very first reality singing show
Speaker 1: since pop Stars.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, oh my god, you were the first season.
Speaker 1: That's right. And I didn't do very well at pop Stars.
Speaker 1: I also auditioned for that show, did you really? Yeah,
Speaker 1: not for the first one, the second one. I think
Speaker 1: it became scandalous. If you remember.
Speaker 3: Opstar is what a throwback?
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think I was eighteen when I did that.
Speaker 1: So yeah. So three years later astrain Idol came around.
Speaker 1: It's crazy. I was always sort of trying for stuff
Speaker 1: but not quite knowing how to do it very well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then I sort of just learned on the job.
Speaker 1: And then we toured with a national tour. Then I
Speaker 1: wrote an album, and then to the album, and then
Speaker 1: the record company dropped me. And I was like, I
Speaker 1: thought this just kept going up. Yes, thought that was
Speaker 1: the directory smooth yeah, yeah, but then it was a
Speaker 1: full jump off the cliff. You know, the rollercoaster has
Speaker 1: to come back down. Yeah, and now now what you know?
Speaker 1: Your manager doesn't want you to sing in pubs anymore
Speaker 1: because that's what you used to do. It's got something
Speaker 1: else for you to do, like, I don't really know
Speaker 1: what else to do. I don't know how to write
Speaker 1: music really well. I don't really know how to do
Speaker 1: any of the stuff. And that's when I got into
Speaker 1: two thousand and five. It was a couple of years
Speaker 1: after Idle. I did Grease the Arena spectacular, John Farnham
Speaker 1: making Zavanski nat Bass, huge cast, incredible, and I met
Speaker 1: all these really wonderful musical theater people. This incredible like
Speaker 1: work ethic, that work hard, party hard. I was like,
Speaker 1: I want I want to be friends with these guys.
Speaker 1: You know I love. I had this party hard ethic,
Speaker 1: but I didn't have the work hard and I wanted,
Speaker 1: you know, them to respect to me. Is that I
Speaker 1: didn't have it.
Speaker 3: I had the party of it, just not the word downpat.
Speaker 1: How do I become friends with these people? Or you
Speaker 1: have to gain their respect to be their peers. So
Speaker 1: I sort of fell in love with musical theater a
Speaker 1: bit and heard about the show called Wicked. So I
Speaker 1: went overseas and I saw Wicked and We Will Rock
Speaker 1: You and Avenue Q all this sort of new musicals
Speaker 1: that I was like, Oh, it's not all Rogers and Hammerstar.
Speaker 1: It's not all Andrew Lloyd Webber classical style singing, cool
Speaker 1: this pop and rock singing sort of stuff. I was like,
Speaker 1: I can I can do that. I saw Adam Garcia,
Speaker 1: Helen Delly Moore, a couple of Aussies in the show. However,
Speaker 1: if they can do it, you know, you've got that
Speaker 1: old days You've got to see it to be it
Speaker 1: kind of thing.
Speaker 3: And it's like that visibility of your dreams totally.
Speaker 1: So I found from that day that I would get
Speaker 1: into Wicked. So I came home from my drunken overseas
Speaker 1: backpacking trip. You know, I did four or five months
Speaker 1: of just traveling the world, spending all of my money.
Speaker 1: It was awesome, the best thing I've ever done. And
Speaker 1: then came home and worked really hard, like took singing lessons,
Speaker 1: acting lessons, dance lessons. I went, now, I've got to
Speaker 1: do this. This is the thing I'm it's calling out
Speaker 1: for me. Yeah. This character Fierro dancing through life, this
Speaker 1: sort of joky, kind of charismatic cool guy, not cool
Speaker 1: at all. I'm not cool. We've established that he was
Speaker 1: like it was like dancing through life. Like I was like,
Speaker 1: that was me. I was dancing through life. And then
Speaker 1: he found the thing that was the most important thing
Speaker 1: that he'd ever seen. In the show It's alphabet, but
Speaker 1: for me it was musical theater. Yeah. I found the
Speaker 1: thing that gave me real purpose. And I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: so I got to relive that every single night, that
Speaker 1: my own sort of personal story journey, yeah, within another story. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And this is what I love so much is that
Speaker 2: when you're telling the story now in order, it all
Speaker 2: makes sense, Like the fascination with different styles of music
Speaker 2: and storytelling, and then going through Australian Idol, and then
Speaker 2: learning all those skills and then getting a bit more confidence,
Speaker 2: and then going actively after your dreams. But if you
Speaker 2: spoke to you back at any of those stages, it
Speaker 2: wouldn't have made sense what you were going to become.
Speaker 2: And I think anyone who's in there earlier stages it
Speaker 2: will eventually all make sense. It will eventually all make sense.
Speaker 2: But also even the great Robert Mills from Australian Idol
Speaker 2: doesn't walk into these opportunities either. Like I think it
Speaker 2: looks kind of smooth now, but you hadn't been in
Speaker 2: musical theater, You didn't have an inn, you didn't have
Speaker 2: a foot in the door and you had to go
Speaker 2: on train as well. So it's like one part life
Speaker 2: conspiring to help you get to where you need to go,
Speaker 2: but the other parties you're going out and seizing that
Speaker 2: and grabbing it and kind of making it happen. But
Speaker 2: I imagine there.
Speaker 3: Was like a lot of that self doubt.
Speaker 2: Worthiness imposter syndrome going on as well, not necessarily having
Speaker 2: come from musical theater.
Speaker 1: Huge, huge amount. I remember my brother just saying, don't
Speaker 1: read the blogs.
Speaker 3: Yeah, don't read the exults.
Speaker 1: So blogs for a big thing back in the early
Speaker 1: two thousands.
Speaker 3: Between newspapers and social media they think or blogs.
Speaker 1: Yeah. When I got asked because I said to my manager,
Speaker 1: you need to get me this audition. And when I
Speaker 1: got cast and they didn't want to see me in
Speaker 1: the beginning, wow, So she had to push really hard
Speaker 1: to see me. I had four auditions over like three
Speaker 1: or four months with American creatives, and I thought I
Speaker 1: stuffed up the first audition, And years like after I'd
Speaker 1: finished got this audition, I found out that the director
Speaker 1: actually grabbed the picture after my audition and put it
Speaker 1: aside and went and then every audition she'd grab my
Speaker 1: picture and go, literally, we're going to put the show
Speaker 1: around this guy. And she had no idea who I was,
Speaker 1: didn't know I was Astralia Idol. Didn't I know, way, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I found out later. She didn't tell because I was
Speaker 1: still like doing all these auditions, freaking out it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thinking they.
Speaker 2: Hate you like you never you always walk away being
Speaker 2: more critical of yourself than anyone else. Ever, is not
Speaker 2: realizing that, like they singled you out as in a.
Speaker 3: Good pile like that was not the well let's get
Speaker 3: rid of that guy. I was over there.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I didn't really believe in myself. So I
Speaker 1: would write down positive affirmation stuff and I've never done
Speaker 1: this is I did it going into Idle, I wrote
Speaker 1: to get into it. I was in the top forty.
Speaker 1: I wrote down, I do believe that I can be
Speaker 1: the guy to be in the top twelve, Like I was, like,
Speaker 1: I do belong here. And then I did the same
Speaker 1: thing for Wicked every time before I went into the audition,
Speaker 1: I wrote down, I've done the work, I do deserve this. Yeah, yeahda,
Speaker 1: Like I just wrote down some positive before I went in.
Speaker 1: It was and I'm not a believer in the secret
Speaker 1: or anything. Like that.
Speaker 3: But but that's manifesting. Its kind of you kind of
Speaker 3: kind of did the.
Speaker 1: Secret, dude, manifesting kind of it kind.
Speaker 3: Of works, kind of worked, Yeah, and it.
Speaker 1: Kind of does. I think manifesting is good as long
Speaker 1: as it's not deluded. You still you still have to
Speaker 1: do the work as well. You can't just say it
Speaker 1: a million dollars. Yeah, Yeah, that doesn't happen. You still
Speaker 1: have to yea, do the work and to manifest it properly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's.
Speaker 1: And also there's an incredible matter of luck. I also
Speaker 1: have to point this out. There is so much luck
Speaker 1: involved in anyone's great success story. There is always there's
Speaker 1: always hard work, but there's always luck. There's so many
Speaker 1: people trying to do the thing that we're trying to do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so much luck goes into it. But there is
Speaker 1: a thing my stepfathers talked about years ago, and I
Speaker 1: don't talk about him a lot with much fondness, but
Speaker 1: I can still reflect on some good things.
Speaker 2: Phil.
Speaker 1: This is Phil. He said, the more I practiced, the
Speaker 1: luckier I got.
Speaker 3: Yes, I love that.
Speaker 1: It's a good little bit.
Speaker 2: I also feel like you can see a lot of
Speaker 2: people be position themselves where luck is going to strike,
Speaker 2: but they're not converted into anything. I think part of
Speaker 2: imposter syndrome and self doubt, which is always a big
Speaker 2: conversation on the show because everyone has it at every
Speaker 2: stage in their life.
Speaker 1: I got it right now, is that?
Speaker 3: Yeah? And me too always is that.
Speaker 2: You attribute too much of your success to luck because
Speaker 2: it's easier to say I was just lucky. But I
Speaker 2: think a lot of people get lucky situations or might
Speaker 2: have been in the same rooms as you or in
Speaker 2: the same situations and not used it, so it's not
Speaker 2: ever only like like we'll never get you all the
Speaker 2: way there, And I think people forget how much of
Speaker 2: them converting that like into something is part of the
Speaker 2: story as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and as said before, like doing the work beforehand,
Speaker 1: like all the experience of just doing gigs on stage
Speaker 1: at pubs or whatever, or setting up the cables or
Speaker 1: chatting to the crew, like I know how much it
Speaker 1: means to put a big show together, or all the
Speaker 1: things that all the elements, And I think that helps
Speaker 1: when you walk into an audition as well. Yeah, Like
Speaker 1: having done a bunch of stuff, you've got a bit
Speaker 1: more confidence within yourself because yeah, you also know what
Speaker 1: it's like to not do the gigs. So the last
Speaker 1: couple of years, every night that I'm on stage, at
Speaker 1: the moment, I'm like, yeah, how good is this? They claps?
Speaker 1: The only job in the world. We clapped, The only
Speaker 1: job in the world where you finish a shift and
Speaker 1: people go very good.
Speaker 2: I feel like we should bring in just an applause
Speaker 2: general rule, Like someone says me a good breakfast, Yes,
Speaker 2: slashed avocado, it was appause worthy, Yes, thank you.
Speaker 1: I thought this, like I wanted to call this thing
Speaker 1: like a giving back kind of the gratitude kind of thing,
Speaker 1: but like a standing o. So what does a standing oh? So,
Speaker 1: like maybe it's someone at the register just doing a
Speaker 1: great job putting them in the bags, standing out.
Speaker 2: Or doing it to the beat, like creating a beat
Speaker 2: as she can scance it through.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, if it's a good breakfast, I will
Speaker 1: always like thanks chef, like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, cute, give credit with appreciation, Give credit with credit.
Speaker 3: We call that appreciation.
Speaker 1: Oh this is good.
Speaker 3: Yeap, yep, I'm taking that one as well.
Speaker 2: Well. You have obviously gone on to convert what I'm
Speaker 2: sure has been a lot of lucky circumstances to also
Speaker 2: a lot of incredible hard work putting yourself out there and.
Speaker 3: Going through some ups and downs.
Speaker 2: Like I think people forget that the definition of an
Speaker 2: artist's journey is rejection. Like you are constantly facing rejection.
Speaker 2: You don't have the stability of like one job for
Speaker 2: twenty years. It just doesn't work that way. So there's
Speaker 2: so much hard stuff that goes on behind the scenes,
Speaker 2: But there's also so many highlights, Like there are too
Speaker 2: many here to list. You've gone from oh, I might
Speaker 2: do musical theater to now being in Hairspray, which is
Speaker 2: why you're back in Melbourn, which is so exciting. But
Speaker 2: I think also I really want to use the rest
Speaker 2: of the episode on the book because it just is
Speaker 2: such an incredible I think one of the things that's
Speaker 2: really beautiful is how much you've talked about storytelling and
Speaker 2: injecting what you've been going through in your life into
Speaker 2: the roles that you've played on stage. I feel like
Speaker 2: you've also done that in the book. It's come from
Speaker 2: the languishing that we all felt in COVID, the lockdowns,
Speaker 2: losing the joy in most things, even for quite optimistic,
Speaker 2: bubbly happy people and sharing how you built that up,
Speaker 2: the introspect that it led to, and the reflections on
Speaker 2: so much at the same time as you were actually
Speaker 2: experiencing it, I think makes it so powerful. So can
Speaker 2: you talk us through how you went from Okay, I've
Speaker 2: done the singing, I've done musical theater, and now I'm
Speaker 2: going to write.
Speaker 1: It came about after losing a couple of mates in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty to cancer. Cancer.
Speaker 3: For the cancer absolutely.
Speaker 1: For all those who've lost someone, it's horrible. And then
Speaker 1: during that time especially, I'm sure we've all been affected
Speaker 1: or no, someone was affected by not being able to
Speaker 1: get to the hospital say goodbye, but not being able
Speaker 1: to go to the funeral to say goodbye or to
Speaker 1: grieve among your tribe. It was really difficult. So I
Speaker 1: didn't get to any of those funerals because of lockdown
Speaker 1: and border closures, and that was pretty pretty shit. And
Speaker 1: then I found I didn't really process it well because
Speaker 1: I was just there with Tunny. And Tonny is great.
Speaker 1: She is an excellent sounding board for stuff, as we've
Speaker 1: talked about. But I caught up with mates and went
Speaker 1: back to drinking when the doors were open again. You know,
Speaker 1: we're allowed outside, and then I was like, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: sad because alcohols are depressant and I haven't really dealt
Speaker 1: with anything. But yeah, I haven't really dealt with the
Speaker 1: fact that I haven't been working, or I haven't that
Speaker 1: I've lost a couple of friends, or oh this is
Speaker 1: not great. So I wrote about that, that state of
Speaker 1: languish she and the sadness that comes with it, and
Speaker 1: also just putting a hand up saying, oh, I'm actually
Speaker 1: not doing so good at the moment, and people a
Speaker 1: lot of people wrote back. I was like, that's really brave.
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't think it's actually I didn't
Speaker 1: see it as being brave. I just felt this is
Speaker 1: how I felt. And the publisher saw the article that
Speaker 1: went up in the Age and City Morning Herald and said,
Speaker 1: would you be interested in writing a book about something
Speaker 1: about something like this? And I was toying with the
Speaker 1: idea of a story or a show about identity and Australia,
Speaker 1: Australia's identity. How I think we're just in our youthful
Speaker 1: twenties at the moment.
Speaker 2: As a country trying to work a workshit, and we're
Speaker 2: still a bit drunk, bit hungover.
Speaker 1: All, yeah, we'ren't quite We've.
Speaker 2: Got a bit going on in our in our brain
Speaker 2: hormones so much.
Speaker 3: Just I totally agree.
Speaker 1: Just partying, we're just blowing everything up and digging things
Speaker 1: out of the ground, not really planning for the future living.
Speaker 1: We're in our twenties right, so we're going through this
Speaker 1: transitional phase anyway. I said, Oh, that's too big. I said, Look,
Speaker 1: all I can do is probably reflect on what I
Speaker 1: know about identity myself and maybe is like what we
Speaker 1: talk about the Aussie bloke, and that's how I see
Speaker 1: myself and a little bit different and weird because I
Speaker 1: like footy and I like musical theater and I like
Speaker 1: actually that how many of how many blokes like that? Actually?
Speaker 1: Are they more blokes like that? Or are they more
Speaker 1: like tattooed blokes than yeah yeah, yeah, Southern Coast tattoo
Speaker 1: wearing blokes that I don't really hang out with or
Speaker 1: don't really know, but they also exist. So what is
Speaker 1: it to be an aussy man? And what is masculinity?
Speaker 1: Is it always toxic? And how much are we reflecting
Speaker 1: or self reflecting? How much? How many other blokes are
Speaker 1: actually doing this or want to do this? But just
Speaker 1: don't know how. And I was like, I don't really know,
Speaker 1: so let's find out. So I asked a bunch of
Speaker 1: experts and that's how it sort of came about. It
Speaker 1: was just going to be a series of sort of interviews.
Speaker 1: I don't know whether that was going to be a podcast,
Speaker 1: but then I thought, I think for me, I like
Speaker 1: the book. I like the way that you can reflect
Speaker 1: during a book. You can put it down and just
Speaker 1: have a moment. We're so caught up in binging everything
Speaker 1: on Netflix since like it just starts without you and
Speaker 1: I don't even know what happened in the last episode
Speaker 1: started the next one like oh cool, cool cool. So
Speaker 1: I kind of like the idea of the book is
Speaker 1: is the time to self reflect. They're really good, as
Speaker 1: is a podcast as well, but like something about the pages,
Speaker 1: maybe you want to write some stuff in them, or
Speaker 1: you can do all that sort of stuff as well,
Speaker 1: or at the end of every chapter just wrote stop just.
Speaker 3: Think, yeah, do some notes. I did that too. Look
Speaker 3: I've got dot points.
Speaker 1: Man chapter, think for five just think for five minutes,
Speaker 1: think for two minutes. Yeah, about how you feel about
Speaker 1: that bit? Does that resonate with you at all or
Speaker 1: does it not resonate with you? I think we just
Speaker 1: don't stop enough to do that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I also think one of the things with particularly with
Speaker 2: quite heavy or shocking statistics that really need the impact,
Speaker 2: really needs to land on you for the impact of
Speaker 2: the rest of the conversation around it to go in
Speaker 2: is seeing it written down. There's something about that. There's
Speaker 2: something about reading your vulnerability, Like talking about it is
Speaker 2: one thing, but knowing that you have committed a lot
Speaker 2: of stories to paper, it's so permanent as well. I
Speaker 2: don't know, there's something a lot more powerful I find
Speaker 2: And if you did a podcast series it would be amazing.
Speaker 3: But you couldn't take that with you anywhere, or you.
Speaker 2: Couldn't like scribble all over it or I don't know,
Speaker 2: hold it with you when you were having a moment.
Speaker 1: Like my parents will like like, why are you sharing all.
Speaker 3: These I don't know. I don't know really because.
Speaker 1: It's important to be able to share this stuff so
Speaker 1: then other people feel like they can share their stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's how I felt, like why are you sharing this?
Speaker 1: Like my mom's like, have I been a bad mom?
Speaker 1: I like no, If you read to the end, Mum,
Speaker 1: you'll see that. I really love our relationship now, like
Speaker 1: that I am the man I am today because of
Speaker 1: these things. Yeah, and I'm a good guy. I'm a
Speaker 1: great I'm a great guy. And also my brother's good.
Speaker 1: Good humans. You know, you've raised really good humans because
Speaker 1: of all these things. So my dad's like, oh, I
Speaker 1: don't know if you. I don't know why you put
Speaker 1: that thing about your mother. I was like, it's my
Speaker 1: it's my story, it's my story. Yeah, yeah, totally. Everyone
Speaker 1: has their own version of events. Everyone has their own
Speaker 1: story going on all the time. Like you and I
Speaker 1: even now right sitting here, we have our own dialogue
Speaker 1: going on. But you're thinking exactly different. You look at
Speaker 1: my left eye.
Speaker 3: I actually wasn't doing it, and now I remember that
Speaker 3: I do.
Speaker 2: Oh man, well, I love that it started as a
Speaker 2: real investigation into sort of what's going on behind the
Speaker 2: bravado of the average AUSSI bloke, Like there's so much
Speaker 2: bravado there's like I love you described it as the
Speaker 2: Tony Lockett, that Plugger cross with a little bit less
Speaker 2: attractive version of Feugh Jackman, Like that's who we all envision,
Speaker 2: which it is, Like there's something something endearing about the
Speaker 2: AUSSI Bloke, the Mean three Bage.
Speaker 1: The like.
Speaker 2: There's just this beautiful picture that we resonate with a lot,
Speaker 2: but investigating whether that is actually who the majority of
Speaker 2: Australian males are. I think that was amazing as a
Speaker 2: starting question because I think it's something we don't talk
Speaker 2: about that much. But then realizing and uncovering through a
Speaker 2: lot of research that there is a bit of a
Speaker 2: distorted perception of masculinity going on, and that perpetuating that
Speaker 2: is creating a lot of problems.
Speaker 3: I mentioned to you before.
Speaker 2: Every year on Men's Health Week we do an episode
Speaker 2: looking at the concept of masculinity and how it's changing
Speaker 2: and how men's mental health does need its own area
Speaker 2: because it's a very different conversation to what is going
Speaker 2: on in the female landscape. And doctor Zack Sidler, we've
Speaker 2: had him on as well, and he's mentioned a lot
Speaker 2: throughout the book that we're in the teething stages of
Speaker 2: something something's changing, we're all not really sure what to
Speaker 2: do with it. I love that Jamilla Risby, she's also
Speaker 2: been on the show and she's amazing different who I
Speaker 2: admire a lot. How women and the female perspective of
Speaker 2: masculinity and what we're expecting in the space we're creating
Speaker 2: is also really important. There's just so many elements of it.
Speaker 2: But can you talk to us a little bit about
Speaker 2: what the current understanding of masculinity is where you see
Speaker 2: the problems and also as someone who has very comfortably
Speaker 2: been able to do the footy sport manly thing and
Speaker 2: be in musical theaters that are less man less traditionally manly,
Speaker 2: and how that's sort of yeah, playing out for you
Speaker 2: and why you think it's so important to write about.
Speaker 1: Have you know that that singing and dancing has been
Speaker 1: very manly for many men.
Speaker 3: Very manly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, also ballet, like talk about a good physiqueat male
Speaker 2: ballet dancers.
Speaker 1: Parry Garside does ballet and punches holes in people.
Speaker 3: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: He was on the show a couple of weeks ago
Speaker 2: and I was like, this eight pac thing that's very musculine,
Speaker 2: very masculine.
Speaker 1: He's someone who's definitely breaking down the stigma of mental
Speaker 1: health and blogs and what it is to be a man.
Speaker 1: I really like him. I would love to have him
Speaker 1: on the in the book, but there was already had
Speaker 1: so many, so many people, but he was definitely on
Speaker 1: the list, hoping to get a copy to him as well.
Speaker 1: I think there's a hangover from our grandfathers and fathers,
Speaker 1: this sort of stoical bloke who doesn't talk about things,
Speaker 1: who goes to work, comes home, he is raising the
Speaker 1: kids twenty thirty minutes a week, like the wife does
Speaker 1: all the low touch methods. The wife does most of
Speaker 1: the new nurturing and that sort of stuff. He does
Speaker 1: the disciplinary stuff, and that has shifted over time, like
Speaker 1: definitely over time. I'm talking about more of our grandfather's here,
Speaker 1: and I'm generalizing as well that I'm sure there were
Speaker 1: grandfathers and blogs that weren't necessarily doing that as well.
Speaker 1: Majority of the people and there's the sort of stick
Speaker 1: your chin out and don't cry, don't talk about your feelings,
Speaker 1: and that happened for a long time because boys don't cry.
Speaker 1: You don't want to be a worse, you don't want
Speaker 1: to be a sissy, and the same goes for girls.
Speaker 1: You don't want to be too brave because you don't
Speaker 1: want to be too bossy instead of like, oh no,
Speaker 1: they're just being assertive.
Speaker 2: In the corporate world, so difficult to navigate that fine
Speaker 2: line between masculinity and feminine for every gender has trouble
Speaker 2: I think with that balance.
Speaker 1: And Jimilla talks about that a lot as well. So
Speaker 1: I think we are shifting. The shift is happening, but
Speaker 1: all these shifts take time, and we're expected to not
Speaker 1: only be the breadwinner, the bloki that I will push
Speaker 1: you out of the way in case something heavy is coming,
Speaker 1: you know, like I will stop a fight. Is I
Speaker 1: have to stop this fight from hurting the people around
Speaker 1: me that I love to also being able to talk
Speaker 1: about it later, and holding your partner or being held
Speaker 1: by your partner, Like there's there's so many things that
Speaker 1: blokes are expected to do now, and I think that
Speaker 1: is confusing for a lot of blokes, and they just
Speaker 1: don't know how to put the hand up and so
Speaker 1: I just don't know what you want. And for a
Speaker 1: lot of women, it's just creating that safe space for
Speaker 1: your partner. And I'm talking about CIS relationships, heterosexual CIS
Speaker 1: relationships at the moment with any kind of partner that
Speaker 1: you have opened that space, open that door for them
Speaker 1: to walk in. Throughout the sixties and seventies, we were
Speaker 1: women's rights movement was moving across the world, and women
Speaker 1: were moving into more masculine kind of male dominated areas,
Speaker 1: which is fantastic because of the quality of crisis. Of
Speaker 1: course this is the best thing to happen, but possibly
Speaker 1: those traditional female spaces weren't being opened up to men,
Speaker 1: or they didn't know that they could walk into those
Speaker 1: spaces or how to do it or how to do it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I always say I talked to Mrasiana this and
Speaker 1: Jamilla and my friend Michelle Brazier, like, maybe women, this
Speaker 1: is the This is the hardest thing to say without
Speaker 1: the accouncel right now, but we're not very good at it.
Speaker 1: Give us a hand, yeah, Like I know what's going
Speaker 1: to be like to take the high ground. You're like,
Speaker 1: we have been trying so hard romp for years to
Speaker 1: just be equal, and now you want our help Like yeah,
Speaker 1: just like yeah, yeah, because that's that's how it works.
Speaker 1: That's how the world works. Like to get what you need,
Speaker 1: you have to help help others. You have to be
Speaker 1: a moltruistic and not expect a lot back from it,
Speaker 1: but you will get so much back from it. Just
Speaker 1: open that door to the conversation. There are also a
Speaker 1: lot of women in CIS relationships that are like, I
Speaker 1: love my man just being the breadwinner. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I feel that almost those women feel a lot of.
Speaker 2: Pressure to be otherwise, to be otherwise, to have to
Speaker 2: they're giving up their feminism.
Speaker 1: Correct, correct, but like, if that's what you like, then
Speaker 1: that's what you like, and that's also okay. Well, there's
Speaker 1: a massive spectrum. There is no black and white, so
Speaker 1: much gray era we sit in the grays a lot.
Speaker 1: I think we're searching for these binary answers for everything.
Speaker 1: But everyone likes different things and that's okay. Just find
Speaker 1: your person that likes the similar things to you. That's
Speaker 1: I think is the most important thing is to open
Speaker 1: up the dialogue, have the conversation with your partner and
Speaker 1: with your friends about what it is that you like.
Speaker 1: Start with a mys Briggs personality test at the very least. Yeah,
Speaker 1: am I introverted or extroverted? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I think it is so interesting because it is a
Speaker 2: time of massive flux and change in like every area
Speaker 2: of society, but particularly in the gender roles, and there
Speaker 2: are increasing situations that we've just never encountered before. It's
Speaker 2: not very often that like women are out earning their
Speaker 2: male partners in this relationships often and that's new and
Speaker 2: that changes the dynamic. And then there's a lot that
Speaker 2: you talk about with the unpaid work in a family
Speaker 2: that women have traditionally borne, a huge load of men
Speaker 2: haven't but are now but aren't really equipped for it.
Speaker 2: And then the biggest problem is without men's circles and
Speaker 2: a lot of men being what you refer to as
Speaker 2: man children who just haven't let like women do it
Speaker 2: so much development through conversations, through women's circles, through just
Speaker 2: ventilating things with their friends and realizing and making revelations
Speaker 2: and all that stuff. And because of that traditional stereotypical,
Speaker 2: stoic male men are bottling everything and then it comes.
Speaker 3: Out in in rage.
Speaker 2: You have a big chapter on anger, a big chapter
Speaker 2: on suicide, but also behaviors like going to alcoholism and
Speaker 2: drugs for escapism because it's like, what do I do with.
Speaker 3: All these feelings?
Speaker 2: And I think again, because of the stoicism, even once
Speaker 2: you are feeling that, men are not talking about it
Speaker 2: and then are not getting the help they need to
Speaker 2: know what to do about it. And its Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: a very difficult time, but everyone needs to be part
Speaker 2: of the conversation to redefine that masculinity.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, men need to open up more and men
Speaker 1: need to have a bit more be okay with having
Speaker 1: those conversations. And also whether it's a female friend or
Speaker 1: a male friend or non gended friend, just to have
Speaker 1: the conversation or create the space for men, you have
Speaker 1: to build the trust for a lot of women. I'm
Speaker 1: going to generalize here, you will have these conversations all
Speaker 1: the time, like you said, and you're having these revelations.
Speaker 1: We're not doing that like talk about the book, like
Speaker 1: come home from chatting with like with my mates, you
Speaker 1: go to the pub and you've had a day maybe
Speaker 1: on the punt at the pub, and then you, oh,
Speaker 1: how's some and so how's his wife doing? How the kids?
Speaker 1: I don't know, we did talk.
Speaker 3: About that, George, just like how's how's he going? How's
Speaker 3: his wife? And you're like, I don't know, what did
Speaker 3: you talk about, dude.
Speaker 1: We'll just talked about like gags and everything else. We
Speaker 1: didn't really talk about it. But it's okay. We definitely
Speaker 1: need that space. You need that banter, you need the
Speaker 1: place to go and have those chats. But also you
Speaker 1: just need to have the deeper, meaning, more meaningful chats
Speaker 1: to decide. Gus walland talk about he likes the idea
Speaker 1: of ninety five percent banter five percent real chat. I
Speaker 1: would like it to be more like ten to fifteen percent.
Speaker 3: I know. I'm like, that's very intense. That's very intense.
Speaker 1: It's five percent chat. I'm like, oh, I'd probably like
Speaker 1: a bit more like for blokes, but.
Speaker 3: Look a bit more banter, a little bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just a little bit more real chat. I would
Speaker 1: really Oh wait.
Speaker 2: So it wasn't it ninety five percent real chat? No,
Speaker 2: five percent real chat? Oh yeah, no, we want a
Speaker 2: little bit more than I thought it was the other
Speaker 2: way around.
Speaker 1: I was like, whoa, he was like ninety five percent
Speaker 1: banter five percent real chat. Because talking also about all
Speaker 1: your feelings and emotions, it's exhausting. We get compassion fatigue.
Speaker 1: It's like watching the news twenty four seven. You're just
Speaker 1: constantly giving out empathy to all the sad things that happening.
Speaker 1: If you're constantly doing that to your friends, like, that's
Speaker 1: that's exhausting. I just feel sad. It's like for my psychologists,
Speaker 1: for my psychotherapist, sorry for Paul. We'll talk about in
Speaker 1: the book. He's amazing, Like are you okay? Like everyone
Speaker 1: are you? Everyone's learning stuff he has I've got, he's
Speaker 1: got his partner and he's got someone else he talks
Speaker 1: to be like always feel like are you doing it?
Speaker 1: Is everyone off learning all this stuff? I feel like
Speaker 1: it's like John Coffee, like healing, you know, like you're
Speaker 1: taking all this stuff, You've got to release it somewhere
Speaker 1: and then.
Speaker 3: You urge it out into the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I urge it out through tears. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So this is one of the things I did want
Speaker 2: to ask you. In your sort of journey, There's there's
Speaker 2: a lot of anecdotes from your own exploration of the
Speaker 2: spectrum of masculinity. And one thing I love this is
Speaker 2: where your sense of humor comes in. That I love
Speaker 2: that it's like a lot of serious stuff, but also
Speaker 2: the lightness of your sense of humor is saying things
Speaker 2: like most men would feel more comfortable disposing of a
Speaker 2: body than admitting they needed help, which is funny but
Speaker 2: also very very true. Like I feel like it's funny
Speaker 2: until you realize actually, probably no, that'd be you say like,
Speaker 2: come and let's dig someone up.
Speaker 1: They'd be like, yeah, yeah, man, I've killed someone accidentally.
Speaker 1: I'll be there.
Speaker 3: I'll be there, yeah, deep chat, No, absolutely not.
Speaker 1: And it's true that that is often the blank because
Speaker 1: I think there's a few things that happen. There's we
Speaker 1: don't want to burden our mate with it because we
Speaker 1: know he's already got other stuff going on. That's the
Speaker 1: best thing about is going to see a psych because
Speaker 1: then you can just offload to someone and you don't
Speaker 1: feel guilty.
Speaker 3: I'll pay you to be here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good, it's good win win situation. Shouldn't rub
Speaker 1: down from the physio. It's same same, Yeah, it's the
Speaker 1: same same, But it's a rub down in your brain.
Speaker 1: That is exactly what it is. Yeah, it's a rub
Speaker 1: down in your brain.
Speaker 2: Down.
Speaker 3: My brain feels so good.
Speaker 1: I feel so good now. Yeah, So we don't want
Speaker 1: to be a burden on our others. Also, there's also
Speaker 1: the thing of being judged by our mates. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: the shame that I've felt this way or that I've
Speaker 1: done something. So I don't want to tell someone because
Speaker 1: then they'll feel they'll think less of me. And this
Speaker 1: goes for across the board. This is not just men,
Speaker 1: but we hold on to our shame we hold on
Speaker 1: to our grief trauma. We don't want to talk about it, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because we don't want a burden, and we also don't
Speaker 1: want to be judged by it, and that's not good.
Speaker 1: And that's I say, create their safe spaces so you
Speaker 1: can have those chats with your mate, because the character
Speaker 1: you're not allowed good amount of time is the good
Speaker 1: amount of the time that other person is definitely thinking
Speaker 1: the same thing that you have been thinking.
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: So one of the I want to ask, and I
Speaker 2: don't want to give away too much from the book,
Speaker 2: because I think everyone needs to go and read it.
Speaker 3: It is so beautifully.
Speaker 2: Powerful in sharing some of the seriously worrying statistics really
Speaker 2: in the male landscape of mental health in particular, and
Speaker 2: possible steps towards how we can fix the pressure to
Speaker 2: be a certain type of masculinity, but also weaving in
Speaker 2: your stories and I think a couple of times where
Speaker 2: it seems like that shame or that confusion have really
Speaker 2: kind of rattled to you in your own relationship with
Speaker 2: your musculinity in yourself has been One was a series
Speaker 2: of panic attacks when you were at like the height
Speaker 2: of Australian idol. So it looked like the dream life
Speaker 2: on the outside, but was actually a big panic disorder moment,
Speaker 2: which I've had quite a few times in they're so
Speaker 2: crippling and debilitating, but we'd love to hear about that.
Speaker 2: The other one was I don't know if I'm allowed
Speaker 2: to just fill this tea that's in the book that
Speaker 2: you had a threesome with Courtney Act, which I think
Speaker 2: is amazing. Did not know this and was just poring
Speaker 2: over that chapter, like what there's a lot of penises going,
Speaker 2: so much happening, but also that kind of exploration of
Speaker 2: your sexuality and what that means for masculinity and then
Speaker 2: the labeling around that, and then also how much there
Speaker 2: was a whole chapter almost on the average penis size
Speaker 2: and libido and sex life and why are all those
Speaker 2: things markers of masculinity? But talking about your feelings isn't
Speaker 2: like I don't get it either.
Speaker 1: Do I? And that's why I wanted to explore it.
Speaker 1: Or I'll go back to the start. So the first
Speaker 1: one is the panic attacks when I was doing idle.
Speaker 1: Luckily for me, doing the work with therapy with the
Speaker 1: therapists over the last few years, like really constantly has
Speaker 1: been really good for that. But I haven't really had
Speaker 1: any massive panic attacks probably since then.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was really lucky to address it sort of
Speaker 1: soon after. I mean, I know in the book I
Speaker 1: definitely talk about I put it in a box, but
Speaker 1: I addressed it by putting it in a box. I
Speaker 1: deal with it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm wrapped up all a good padlock on the box.
Speaker 1: I addressed that. I definitely addressed it, but like put
Speaker 1: it in a box, but I didn't Now I know
Speaker 1: what it is. I think when it first happened, I
Speaker 1: didn't know what it was at all, and it was terrifying.
Speaker 1: And yeah, the moment of running to that sliding door
Speaker 1: at the hotel and just slamming it shut and not
Speaker 1: jumping off the balcony, it was really even thinking about
Speaker 1: it now. Luckily for me, I just was like, what
Speaker 1: are you? Why is that thought even in your brain?
Speaker 1: Like wow, okay, it was the thought of like, you
Speaker 1: could end it all. Now, you don't have to feel
Speaker 1: this way. You don't have to feel scared, you don't
Speaker 1: have to feel like everyone wants a piece of you. Didn't.
Speaker 1: It was just you don't have to feel that way.
Speaker 1: You could just end it. I was like oh cool, no,
Speaker 1: no thing, oh maybe or maybe like you know, like yeah,
Speaker 1: and that all happens in the space of a split second.
Speaker 1: Like that all happens like in a space of a
Speaker 1: split second, and your heart is racing. Unluckily for me,
Speaker 1: I just slammed that door and called my brother and
Speaker 1: just said, oh, hey.
Speaker 3: Man, I'm good. I'm good.
Speaker 1: He's like, hey, go, oh yeah, good day. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: had a really good day. Indy had a really good
Speaker 1: time with Levi. We just got got some drinks and
Speaker 1: just back at the hotel.
Speaker 3: Now, just chilling, having a good time.
Speaker 1: Pretended that hadn't felt all those crazy feelings again for
Speaker 1: fear of judgment or shame or whatever, or didn't want
Speaker 1: to burden him, didn't want him to think that I
Speaker 1: was not feeling great. And then the sexy stuff. It's
Speaker 1: kind of like I've never thought like even through high school,
Speaker 1: was attracted to people, to girls, to boys, I think,
Speaker 1: and not really knowing how to explore it. And then
Speaker 1: I met Courtney during Idol. I was like this, this
Speaker 1: beautiful creature, so confident and sexy, and and then you know,
Speaker 1: we had a fairly big night out. We did all
Speaker 1: the things, drinking and drugs, and back in the day,
Speaker 1: you know, I was a bit of a party part
Speaker 1: of a bit of a party kid. No, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I was a bit of a part of him.
Speaker 3: I did a lot, we did some things. We did
Speaker 3: some things anymore.
Speaker 1: Old now, and that sort of ended up in this
Speaker 1: kind of body on body on body, and I remember going,
Speaker 1: this is this is interesting. I remember wake you up
Speaker 1: the next day going Okay, that was different. Cool, have
Speaker 1: that a go. And I've given it a go several
Speaker 1: times throughout my life, which Georgie knows about.
Speaker 2: And I'm glad she knows, because this would have been
Speaker 2: a great time find out the first time in the book.
Speaker 1: Here party pashas you know, gay clubs, and just yeah,
Speaker 1: have them live in my best life. I'm just having
Speaker 1: a good time. And then yeah, that's that's kind of
Speaker 1: like how I always looked at it. And then I
Speaker 1: was always I felt a weird shame or read guilt
Speaker 1: about it, or like didn't know how to talk about it.
Speaker 1: And then I was like, what are you doing? Mate?
Speaker 1: Who cares? Anyone gives a shit, No one cares. Do
Speaker 1: you like this person? Do you like? And I, yeah,
Speaker 1: I honestly have never really I don't worry. I don't
Speaker 1: worry about it anymore. Yeah, but for a long time,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh what am I doing? What is
Speaker 1: this feeling? What is this guilt? And I think a
Speaker 1: lot of men feel that way, and they're like, I
Speaker 1: shouldn't feel this way about a bloke or about someone
Speaker 1: else that I care. You can also care about them.
Speaker 1: There's one thing I it sort of worked out is
Speaker 1: I was using sex to connect with people, yeah, and
Speaker 1: using sex to connect with men with women because I
Speaker 1: thought that's how you connected.
Speaker 3: Vehicle to something that you could have got another way
Speaker 3: you didn't know.
Speaker 1: Instead of like actually just having conversation and having a chat,
Speaker 1: I used sexual acts or whatever. Like I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're an idiot. You could have just had a conversation
Speaker 1: and realized.
Speaker 3: Conversation Orgie conversation ORGI like, you know, same thing.
Speaker 1: But I think a lot of people do that throughout
Speaker 1: their teens and total and twenties instead of like, I
Speaker 1: didn't have to get rid of that because you don't know.
Speaker 1: Your hormones are racing, like this is this is what
Speaker 1: you meant to do.
Speaker 3: This is the funnest.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, I think you sort of just not
Speaker 1: grow out of not grow out of it. That's not
Speaker 1: that's not what I'm saying. But I think you realize
Speaker 1: there are other ways to connect with people. And I
Speaker 1: think I was definitely craving a male connection and it
Speaker 1: was a friendship, I think, leaving high school, leaving mates behind, yeah,
Speaker 1: not really knowing my place had sort of left the band,
Speaker 1: and then I had a female manager, Like, yeah, my
Speaker 1: brother was off making babies and having kids, and like
Speaker 1: both of my brothers, I was like, I didn't really
Speaker 1: have my tribe, my circle of blokes. And since you know,
Speaker 1: since all that that happened over the over the years,
Speaker 1: last out of fifteen years, I've I've curated really good
Speaker 1: blokes around me as like a good yeah, understanding friendships
Speaker 1: and blokes that I now can go for a walk
Speaker 1: and talk about anything with. It's super important to have
Speaker 1: those those relationships, the ones that you cannot just gamble
Speaker 1: with and do stupid stuff, but also that you can
Speaker 1: have proper conversation with. So yeah, that was that's the
Speaker 1: There was another question. What was the other that was more.
Speaker 2: Well the main Yeah, the final question was kind of
Speaker 2: linked in too. You've actually led to it really nicely
Speaker 2: was the idea that you've obviously had in yourself a
Speaker 2: lot of like different interpretations of what masculinity meant, and
Speaker 2: it's tied in with different parts of your identity at
Speaker 2: different times, even in your sex life, like trying to
Speaker 2: figure out what that means. But that over time now
Speaker 2: you see him a lot more comfortable with where you
Speaker 2: are and knowing that you can be manly, but you
Speaker 2: also don't need to like fit into all those things
Speaker 2: we were talking about kind of why are the markers
Speaker 2: of a big penis, of sportiness, of tattoos, like why
Speaker 2: are all those things still quite present as markers of masculinity.
Speaker 1: I think there can be if that's what your partner
Speaker 1: is into or that's what you're into. The most important
Speaker 1: thing this is I talked to Georgia Grace. She's a
Speaker 1: sex therapist. She's also a podcaster. She is incredible. She
Speaker 1: just talked about breaking down the gender stereotypes in the bedroom.
Speaker 1: So like to say that you are the blokey bloke
Speaker 1: of the trade guy or whatever, and you get home,
Speaker 1: maybe you want to be dominated by your partner.
Speaker 2: That's also if that chatter even how gays with the
Speaker 2: submissive and the dominant, like have issues with who takes
Speaker 2: on the masculine role based on traditional markers of masculinity.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so so interesting.
Speaker 1: The idea is just have the conversation and maybe it's
Speaker 1: different in the bedroom compared to what you're doing outside
Speaker 1: the bedroom or wherever you're having sex. You could be kitchen,
Speaker 1: the bath, friend of the car. But it's okay to explore,
Speaker 1: to try new things. It doesn't mean that you're less masculine,
Speaker 1: or it just means that maybe you want to be
Speaker 1: dominated or you want to dominate, like even for the
Speaker 1: for for a woman, it's okay to want these things.
Speaker 1: I talk about the Fifty Shades of Great. There's a
Speaker 1: reason why that's the most popular book, right, it has
Speaker 1: to be if all these women are reading this going
Speaker 1: I want to get strangled, I want to get choked out.
Speaker 1: And then there's a whole group women are not conflicted.
Speaker 2: They're like, I'm a feminist, but like delish confusing.
Speaker 1: You can be both, Yeah, so why can't you? Why
Speaker 1: why can't it be a safe space? But yeah, also
Speaker 1: blokes don't beat women, but also strangle inroom with consent
Speaker 1: and safely and absolutely but don't expect it and don't
Speaker 1: expect blogs to work it out. Like, if there's one
Speaker 1: thing that I've worked out is we're not going to
Speaker 1: work it out.
Speaker 3: You're not going to figure it out all on your own.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're just not going to because we're having this
Speaker 1: chat with our mates. We come home, we've we've talked
Speaker 1: about nothing.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, I think the book is just a really beautiful
Speaker 2: adventure through the different themes and challenges, but also things
Speaker 2: that have really helped you in the landscape of masculinity
Speaker 2: today as an Australian guy. And I think one of
Speaker 2: the really big things I like is how much help
Speaker 2: you actually give people in like things they can try,
Speaker 2: like when they are feeling a bit of shame. Is
Speaker 2: it that we need better role models? Is it that
Speaker 2: we need like it's interesting in the chapter that you
Speaker 2: had no male role models in your life. That's when
Speaker 2: you started looking for that connection in albeit in things
Speaker 2: that didn't in your sex life that didn't end up.
Speaker 3: Being where you needed it.
Speaker 2: But how much help you offer so if you wanted
Speaker 2: anyone to take something out of this book, who is
Speaker 2: reading this right now or a few key things like
Speaker 2: what I often think my goal in life is to
Speaker 2: leave a conversation for that person to feel better than
Speaker 2: they did when I came into it. What's your goal
Speaker 2: for the book when someone picks it up versus when
Speaker 2: they put it down? What are the main things you
Speaker 2: want them to leave with men and women, but particularly
Speaker 2: men who are maybe a bit earlier on in their
Speaker 2: journey of masculinity and exploring that.
Speaker 1: Self reflect like, think about stuff, think about how you
Speaker 1: feel about certain topics that think about how you feel
Speaker 1: about your partner, think about how you feel about yourself.
Speaker 1: Get to know yourself more. Make time for yourself, whether
Speaker 1: that's journaling or and that sounds a bit hippie and stuff,
Speaker 1: but it does really work. Go for walks with your mate, Yeah,
Speaker 1: go for drives with your partner. Like we're saying before,
Speaker 1: not having the director eye contact the whole way through
Speaker 1: thing is really calming and easy to you find yourself
Speaker 1: having a better deeper conversation. Long walks like two hours
Speaker 1: minimum two hours, because once you get through all the
Speaker 1: small stuff, you've got nothing else to talk about.
Speaker 3: So you have to go into the deep stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so that's a really good one. Self reflect
Speaker 1: Get aware, aware of your surroundings, the people around you
Speaker 1: who you tribe. Who are the people that are bringing
Speaker 1: you most joy? Who are the people that probably not
Speaker 1: bringing you any joy as well?
Speaker 2: A good one, you know, Like, yeah, it's okay for
Speaker 2: your Like I feel like people into your life for
Speaker 2: a reason a season in a lifetime, and it's okay
Speaker 2: if they come in and then fade out in different
Speaker 2: chapters because you're a different person.
Speaker 1: There's a great This is a great thing, my cycle
Speaker 1: said to me a couple of years ago. Just say
Speaker 1: that you are I mean, everyone at the moment is
Speaker 1: the center of their own universe, which is infuriating, but like, okay,
Speaker 1: let's go with that analogy though, But you are the
Speaker 1: Sun and you get to control Let's say your friends
Speaker 1: or your friendship groups or your family are the planets,
Speaker 1: but you get to control their orbit. So some of
Speaker 1: them are like some of your close friends around Venus,
Speaker 1: you know, they're around Mercury. They're really close to the
Speaker 1: Sun and the Earth, you know, and they're constantly there
Speaker 1: all the time. But sometimes they're like Pluto, so then
Speaker 1: they come around at birthdays and Christmas and then they're
Speaker 1: gone again. Like you get to control Yeah, how close
Speaker 1: the cycle. Yeah, this is so weird.
Speaker 2: That you just said that, because I always talk about
Speaker 2: this when people are like, how do you manage your energy?
Speaker 2: I'm like, there are just x amount of people in
Speaker 2: your life and they're all on different cycles. And the
Speaker 2: difficult thing sometimes is when someone's on a two week
Speaker 2: cycle and you need them to be on a six
Speaker 2: weeks so you just.
Speaker 3: Could push them out.
Speaker 2: It sounds terrible, but I'm like, that's how you project
Speaker 2: your energy. Never thought about it as planets though. I'm like,
Speaker 2: some people are like Alpha Centauri, like ten million miles.
Speaker 2: I am like pushing you out into another galaxy, and
Speaker 2: some people like, yeah, a beautiful way, more beautiful way
Speaker 2: of saying it.
Speaker 1: It's a very good Paul McNiff guy, check you about
Speaker 1: well music.
Speaker 3: Congratulations.
Speaker 2: I just want to like talk about every single chapter
Speaker 2: and every single sentence because it's packed full of such
Speaker 2: important reflections. I really think for on a personal level,
Speaker 2: for individuals reading it, but also for people thinking about
Speaker 2: society as a whole. I think there there's a lot
Speaker 2: for men at the moment to deal with. There is
Speaker 2: so much flux and so much change, and it's a
Speaker 2: real like handbook.
Speaker 3: I think.
Speaker 1: I don't I've deliberately said, this is not a self
Speaker 1: help book.
Speaker 3: But I don't know handbook like a guide book.
Speaker 2: Thank you like a companion, shall we say a companion?
Speaker 1: If you will, Yeah, and you can read it. You
Speaker 1: don't have to read it from front to back. There
Speaker 1: are different chapters for different things, which I think is good.
Speaker 1: But also just remember we're getting there. Social change takes time.
Speaker 1: Any change in humans takes time. Just don't be so
Speaker 1: outraged going with if you need to talk about anything
Speaker 1: with your partner or with your friend. If you go
Speaker 1: in with an inquisitive mindset, we're going with curiosity, you
Speaker 1: can't lose. You just can't lose. If you're going with
Speaker 1: attacking with why avengeful? Why are you doing this? Like,
Speaker 1: if you're going with a curious, inquisitive mindset, you cannot
Speaker 1: go wrong. Totally.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: I have one question to finish that with, which I
Speaker 2: bookend every episode with. Because you know I love quotes
Speaker 2: and I speak exclusively in quote. What's your favorite quote?
Speaker 1: Oh, look, there's a favorite quote. Oh that's really tough, Okay,
Speaker 1: I will paraphrase. It's about it's an Ira Glass quote
Speaker 1: that I like. Love Iraglass.
Speaker 3: I love that you listen to this American life.
Speaker 1: Change my life. So he talks about people that are
Speaker 1: creative have this taste, and they get into the pursuit
Speaker 1: of creative things because their taste is so good. They
Speaker 1: love these creative, awesome things that they see, whether it's
Speaker 1: film and movies or TV or whatever it is. But
Speaker 1: in the very beginning, your actual skill level is crap,
Speaker 1: but your taste is really good. But your actual ability
Speaker 1: to do the thing, whether it's guitar playing or singing
Speaker 1: or podcasting, what it is, it's not good. But in
Speaker 1: order to get to there, to where your taste is,
Speaker 1: you've got to do the work. It's the only way.
Speaker 1: And a lot of people forget that and they just
Speaker 1: drop off, so they become critics or they become disenfranchised
Speaker 1: with art itself and they feel like they're not not happy.
Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing Heat. The whole idea of it is bridge
Speaker 1: the gap, do the work so that your ability becomes
Speaker 1: as good as your taste.
Speaker 2: Oh I love that so much, Millsy, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Where can we get our copies of putting on a show?
Speaker 3: Everyone?
Speaker 1: I want to say, at all your favorite bookstores. It'll
Speaker 1: be out.
Speaker 2: Do you even know where it's going to be out
Speaker 2: somewhere but where books live.
Speaker 1: A lot of people have been stimmy pictures of them
Speaker 1: buying it on Amazon, so that's been pretty cute. So
Speaker 1: Amazon and bookstores and Gimbite online. And also there's an
Speaker 1: audiobook coming next to well, I know I'd like to
Speaker 1: read it. Everyone else's quotes, I'm like, oh, nowhere near
Speaker 1: as good as how they said it.
Speaker 2: I was going to say, reading some of your own,
Speaker 2: like really vulnerable bits would have been turtle.
Speaker 3: Was it just act?
Speaker 1: You can hear the frog in the throat for sure? Ye? Amazing.
Speaker 2: There's some amazing photos in here as well, the Paris
Speaker 2: Hilton era, which I on purpose didn't mention because I
Speaker 2: feel like every article about you ever mentioned it but.
Speaker 1: Had had to be done in the chapter. But to
Speaker 1: be done, there's far more compelling and interesting stories I
Speaker 1: think in the book than that.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: Isn't Rob just the loveliest if it didn't come across
Speaker 2: and I didn't rave about it enough. His new book
Speaker 2: is truly such a valuable contribution to the conversation about
Speaker 2: masculinity and how we need to redefine some of our
Speaker 2: outdated definitions of the concept, and I will pop a
Speaker 2: link in the show notes so you can grab a
Speaker 2: copy for yourselves.
Speaker 3: As always, please him.
Speaker 2: Some good old yighborhood love by sharing the episode tagging
Speaker 2: at Rob millsy Mills, and Us so we can show
Speaker 2: our gratitude to him and also keep growing the neighborhood
Speaker 2: as far and wide as possible. I hope you are
Speaker 2: all having an amazing week and are seizing your yay