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Speaker 1: In anyone's great success story, there is always there's always

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Speaker 1: hard work, but there's always luck. There's so many people

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Speaker 1: trying to do the thing that we're trying to do.

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Speaker 1: We're searching for these binary answers for everything. But everyone

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Speaker 1: likes different things and that's okay. Just find your person

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Speaker 1: that likes the similar things to you. If you need

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Speaker 1: to talk about anything with your partner or with your friend,

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Speaker 1: if you go in with an inquisitive mindset, going with curiosity,

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Speaker 1: you can't lose.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy

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Speaker 2: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what

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Speaker 2: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but

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Speaker 2: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than

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Speaker 2: one way. So this is a platform to hear and

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Speaker 2: explore the stories of those who found lives.

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Speaker 3: They adore, the good, bad and ugly.

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Speaker 2: The best and worst day will bear all the facets

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Speaker 2: of seizing your yay. I'm Sarah Davidson or a spoonful

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Speaker 2: of Sarah, a lawyer turned fu entrepreneur who swapped the

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Speaker 2: suits and heels to co found Matcha Maiden and Matcha

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Speaker 2: Milk Bark CZA is a series of conversations on finding

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Speaker 2: a life you love and exploring the self doubt, challenge,

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Speaker 2: joy and.

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Speaker 3: Fulfillment along the way.

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Speaker 2: Hope you're having a wonderful week lovely neighborhood and to

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Speaker 2: those of you I've been lucky enough to meet in

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Speaker 2: person on the Keeper Cleaner Tour in Adelaide and Auckland

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Speaker 2: over the past couple of weekends, you have absolutely made

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Speaker 2: my year. It is always such a pleasure to meet

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Speaker 2: neighborhood members out in the wild. We're heading to Perth

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Speaker 2: this coming weekend for the final leg of Kick Tour

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Speaker 2: this year, so hopefully I get to meet some more

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Speaker 2: of you there. Please send me a DM if you're

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Speaker 2: coming along. I don't want to miss any of you.

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Speaker 2: If any of you are going to be there, speaking

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Speaker 2: of traveling into state, if anyone needs a little chuckle

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Speaker 2: or a bit of extra ya this week. Another random

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Speaker 2: tidbit that happened in the past couple of days is

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Speaker 2: I made one of my unhinged videos on social media,

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Speaker 2: which you know I love to do, sharing what I

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Speaker 2: think is the perfect analogy between Melbourne and Sydney involving

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Speaker 2: them being sisters, which a went viral over the past

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Speaker 2: couple of days, which is hilarious in itself, but b

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Speaker 2: sparked a comment conversation that was a thousand times funnier,

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Speaker 2: Like literally thousands of people weighing in on how they

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Speaker 2: see Melbourne and Sydney, or how they see all the

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Speaker 2: other states and how they fit into the family tree

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Speaker 2: of Australia. It's just so funny. It's better than Netflix.

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Speaker 2: Just going through the comments is the best thing that's

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Speaker 2: ever happened. So go and check that out if you

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Speaker 2: need a laugh. But that is not my point for today.

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Speaker 2: It's been a pretty busy time lately, obviously, but in

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Speaker 2: the days that I was in Melbourne, I was lucky

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Speaker 2: enough to catch the legendary Rob Mills to record an

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Speaker 2: episode in celebration of his brand new book, Putting On

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Speaker 2: a Show. I only got my advanced copy about twenty

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Speaker 2: four hours beforehand, and I kind of thought i'd give

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Speaker 2: it a quick once over to prepare these questions, and

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Speaker 2: that i'd go back and read it in more detail

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Speaker 2: at a later time. But I could not put it down.

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Speaker 2: I read the entire thing in depth in one go.

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Speaker 2: It's such a fabulous and very much needed exploration of

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Speaker 2: the average Aussie bloke, our shifting and sometimes distorted perception

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Speaker 2: of masculinity. With Rob's beautiful knack for storytelling and personal

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Speaker 2: anecdotes weave throughout, there is a reason this man has

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Speaker 2: been so successful in showbiz. He is warm, witty, vulnerable,

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Speaker 2: honest and open minded, all of which comes through in

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Speaker 2: the book. I'll let him tell you more about it himself,

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Speaker 2: but we also get to cover the parts of his

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Speaker 2: pathier that you might not have heard as much about

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Speaker 2: between the Australian Idol and Paris Hilton related headlines. You know,

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Speaker 2: I love getting into all the chapters we know much

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Speaker 2: less about, and Rob was very obliging and a joy

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Speaker 2: to listen to. I also definitely did that thing where

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Speaker 2: I wanted to cover so much all at once. Perhaps

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Speaker 2: I should have read the book not in twice so

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Speaker 2: much detail beforehand, so that I wouldn't have so many

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Speaker 2: questions to ask in one episode. So I do probably

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Speaker 2: jump around a bit crazily, but hopefully you enjoy. Nonetheless,

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Speaker 2: just a very quick content warning as well. We do

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Speaker 2: touch on mental health and suicide briefly in the conversation,

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Speaker 2: so listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 3: Melsy, Welcome to seize thee.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I've been watching from Afar

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Speaker 1: and it's delightful. There was a lot of yay in

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Speaker 1: your world, a lot of yay lovely humans. I'm glad

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Speaker 1: I'm now considered.

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Speaker 3: A Yaya, part of the yighborhood.

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Speaker 1: That's how we refer to that community, a yighborhood. I

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Speaker 1: like that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good one, you know. I love a pun.

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Speaker 2: I can't walk past one, can't walk past an opportunity.

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Speaker 2: It is such a privilege and pleasure to have you here.

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Speaker 2: I've literally just spent the last twenty four hours pouring

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Speaker 2: over your brand new book. I got a copy I

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Speaker 2: think twenty five hours ago, and I was like, I

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Speaker 2: can't wait. I need to have it moved. I've read

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Speaker 2: the entire thing.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. I really appreciate that. Yeah, it was a

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Speaker 1: couple of years of writing, researching, working together with Paul Connolly,

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Speaker 1: who's just incredible. So many great conversations with him, back

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Speaker 1: and forth with the editor towards the end as well,

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Speaker 1: what to keep, what to throw out. He was amazing

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Speaker 1: and instrumental in putting all my thoughts and feelings together

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Speaker 1: and yeah, just letting me feel like I'm in a

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Speaker 1: safe space, I suppose, in order to let it all out.

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Speaker 2: I think what's so beautiful is the book itself and

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Speaker 2: the way it's written and how much personal anecdote is

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Speaker 2: interwoven with you know, really important statistics and science and research.

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Speaker 3: Is that you've created a safe space for other people.

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Speaker 2: I think in sharing your story so openly and vulnerably,

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Speaker 2: I think you'll create a real safe space for people

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Speaker 2: who otherwise maybe haven't had one before.

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Speaker 1: So it's really beautiful. That's kind of thing, that's the

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Speaker 1: kind of the point of the book, but also kind

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Speaker 1: of the point of life. Like, we have horrible suicide

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Speaker 1: rate in Austraia, especially for men. So I wanted to go, well,

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Speaker 1: all right, how do how do we get them to

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Speaker 1: get to a place where they feel like they're not alone,

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Speaker 1: they feel like they do belong, they can talk about

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Speaker 1: this stuff. So if I held anything back, I didn't

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Speaker 1: feel like I'm not walking the walk, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: not walking the talk, so that I had better let

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Speaker 1: everything out there and be vulnerable and create enough space.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of what you do when you having conversation

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Speaker 1: with the mate. If you create the space to be

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Speaker 1: vulnerable have a vulnerable chat. Then they feel like, all right,

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Speaker 1: well they've showed me something. Yeah, I'll show you something,

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Speaker 1: you know, let's kind of it's part of how it works.

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Speaker 3: Seven minutes later, you're a volunteers a position on the

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Speaker 3: floor together.

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Speaker 1: It's beautiful, embracing with your best mates. It's great, it's great.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm so excited to get into the book, and

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Speaker 2: particularly the fact that I think one of the most

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Speaker 2: amazing parts of having a podcast is that this is

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Speaker 2: so fresh for you. This is like twenty four hours

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Speaker 2: after you've seen your first copy, and I love that

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Speaker 2: in a year's time you'll be able to listen back

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Speaker 2: to how nervous you were and all your first impressions.

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Speaker 3: About how it feels.

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Speaker 2: But first, it would be remiss with me not to

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Speaker 2: ask you the icebreaker, but be just talk very quickly

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Speaker 2: through a couple of the dots that had to connect

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Speaker 2: for you to get here, because I think people often

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Speaker 2: walk into your life at this chapter, even the Australian

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Speaker 2: Idol chapter, like big chapters of your life that are

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Speaker 2: much more publicized, and forget that like once upon a

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Speaker 2: time there was a little Rob Mills who had no

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Speaker 2: idea how it was going to work out, if it

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Speaker 2: was going to work out which direction.

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Speaker 1: There's an older young Miles to still think he's got

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Speaker 1: no idea what more so now I no can idea.

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Speaker 2: But I think tracing through those sort of steps in

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Speaker 2: the staircase is really reassuring for other people that now

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Speaker 2: you may have, you know, a lot of introspection, self

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Speaker 2: awareness and joy and fulfillment. But it doesn't always happen overnight.

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Speaker 2: In fact, it never does.

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Speaker 1: No, absolutely not.

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Speaker 2: So very first question to break through the ice, especially

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Speaker 2: as an actor, TV host, singer, songwriter, it's pretty glam

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Speaker 2: on the outside. Sure, what's something very down to earth

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Speaker 2: about you? Like the most relatable? What would Tunny say

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Speaker 2: is the most relatable thing about you?

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Speaker 1: I've got a weird habit. I have a toothpick habit.

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Speaker 1: In fact, how weird. I don't actually have one on

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Speaker 1: me right now, but I always have one in the

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Speaker 1: car door. It's like one of those little pixture things,

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Speaker 1: no way, like it's.

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Speaker 2: Just a straight one, or like the actual dental things

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Speaker 2: that have like.

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Speaker 1: The flosstick, the flastic flastic. I love them, obsessed with them.

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Speaker 1: I found out a few years ago that they existed,

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Speaker 1: you know, like with floss, you have to wrap it

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Speaker 1: around your fingers. You're drooling on your hands trying to

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Speaker 1: put your fingers in your mouth and get through all

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Speaker 1: the flastick. Probably not very environmentally friendly.

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Speaker 3: But definitely disposaball single use. But that's fine, single use

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Speaker 3: of that's disgusting and amazing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's my thing. I love it. I can't

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Speaker 1: go on stage if I haven't lossed. I can't do

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Speaker 1: a gig. So I've flushed before I got here.

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Speaker 3: No ginger badis over there.

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Speaker 1: Super healthy gums. Yeah, I love dental hygiene.

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Speaker 3: I love it. That's the best.

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Speaker 2: That's definitely down to earth And strangely, Nick has recently

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Speaker 2: got on the dental floss pick. That's how I knew

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Speaker 2: what they were. Bandwagon and we were recently. I can't

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Speaker 2: even remember we were overseas.

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Speaker 3: We're in Italy.

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Speaker 1: Don't tell me.

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Speaker 3: You drop that into the conversation.

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Speaker 1: I was watching your Instagram. It's just thank you.

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Speaker 3: In Italy.

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Speaker 2: He was like, I just I can't. I didn't bring

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Speaker 2: my flow sticks, Like, what am I going to do?

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Speaker 2: So he went to a pharmacy and bought this hundred packs.

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Speaker 1: Done. I've done that on a night out with friends, Like,

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Speaker 1: what do you do with the hundred? I just need one.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't just right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not like a one hundred. It's one hundred or

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Speaker 2: nothing that I need one. I can't go zero.

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Speaker 3: It's crazy.

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Speaker 1: Is that hating about to people? They're like, oh, this

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Speaker 1: is interesting. I think that's good because that's where a

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Speaker 1: lot of your bad breath comes from.

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Speaker 3: It is us.

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Speaker 1: It's from food that's stuck in hard to reach places.

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Speaker 1: So just guys, get on to it. You won't regret it.

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Speaker 1: I expect some dms.

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Speaker 2: It is quite a game changer. Yeah, neighborhood, this is

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Speaker 2: a challenge. Go and get a gentle plastic and then

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Speaker 2: report back to Melsy.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, don't do worry about the book.

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Speaker 1: Just get get some old steak back.

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Speaker 2: There Another really lovely, down to earth thing about you

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Speaker 2: that I need to mention. We've already spoken about it

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Speaker 2: quickly today is you won't probably find all the things

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Speaker 2: you'd find in your back teeth. It's probably not seafood

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Speaker 2: because you and Georgie don't really eat seafood. But this

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Speaker 2: is how kind Milsy is. He found out that near

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Speaker 2: his house a new restaurant. I think a friend had

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Speaker 2: opened the restaurant and to be a beautiful, supportive friend

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Speaker 2: and to be a lovely host who then invited us

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Speaker 2: to experience this beautiful restaurant as well. He took us

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Speaker 2: out for dinner, and they don't eat seafood, but the

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Speaker 2: entire menu is only seafood. It was like, and I

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Speaker 2: didn't realize this until like halfway through the dinner. You

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Speaker 2: were like, yeah, we don't really eat seafood. And there's

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Speaker 2: like a smallest board of the ocean on the table.

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Speaker 1: It looked delicious for you guys.

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Speaker 3: The level of kindness that what did you guys eat?

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Speaker 1: Like chips had some pollentid chips or something. And I

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Speaker 1: think there was some bread.

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Speaker 3: Some fad some bread passed around like great meal.

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Speaker 1: Like a snack. It was some lovely wine as well.

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Speaker 3: The best.

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Speaker 1: Still a great time. It's all about the conversation. It's

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Speaker 1: all about the chat.

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Speaker 2: Oh but I mean that's just a snippet of how

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Speaker 2: kind and thoughtful and lovely you guys both are. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: I just felt like I had to bring that up front.

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Speaker 1: Also had to find a partner that doesn't like seafood

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Speaker 1: very compatible. Yeah, very compatible.

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Speaker 3: Is that when you knew like yes, was dining it's

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Speaker 3: un compatible.

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Speaker 1: That's all we need to tick. You're got to tick

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Speaker 1: some of the box. So that was like, that's I

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Speaker 1: just need one.

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Speaker 2: All right, your way to yay. This is a bit

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Speaker 2: where we kind of quickly go through your path yay.

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Speaker 2: And I feel like, because you do have a public profile,

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Speaker 2: a lot of information is available. Elis where and I

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Speaker 2: want to spend most of the time.

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Speaker 3: In your book.

256
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Speaker 2: But just quickly, did Young Rob playing Sunday sessions at

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Speaker 2: Red Eagle Hotel in Albert Park, yep, ever think he

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Speaker 2: would be an author?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely not? No, absolutely, absolutely no way. Young Rob was

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Speaker 1: eighteen singing at the Red Eagle Hotel, the Monash Hotel,

261
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Speaker 1: notting Hill Hotel, Anglis Tavern, not Yeah breakers in Preston. Yeah.

262
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Speaker 1: I was singing all across Melbourne in my little cover band,

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Speaker 1: whether it was acoustic duo trio kind of thing or

264
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Speaker 1: we're in a full band as well, cricket clubs and

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Speaker 1: footag clubs. That was I never thought I would be

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Speaker 1: writing books, Absolutely not. I just loved performing, I suppose,

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Speaker 1: but I suppose it's it's not too far out of stretch.

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Speaker 1: It's just story telle. Like really, when you think of it,

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Speaker 1: singing songs, even when I was sing covers as a kid,

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Speaker 1: I was always trying to find the story. I didn't

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Speaker 1: even think about it. I was just always trying to

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Speaker 1: sing what the story was of the song, you know,

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Speaker 1: like even if it's a pop song, there's still a

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Speaker 1: story that goes with that boy mets girl or like

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Speaker 1: hardship or whatever whatever that the song is. I was

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Speaker 1: always trying to sing the meaning of the song, and

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Speaker 1: which ime.

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Speaker 3: I sing it that's so nice?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, subconsciously or whatever. But so maybe just always been

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Speaker 1: a storytyp.

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Speaker 2: That's the opposite of me I was singing. I think

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Speaker 2: back all the time to the lyrics that I used

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Speaker 2: to sing when I was like thirteen, not having any

284
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Speaker 2: clue about the story of the meaning. Thank god, I

285
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Speaker 2: had no idea what I was singing, because I'm like

286
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Speaker 2: my poor parents listening to me sing about, like, oh,

287
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Speaker 2: just horrible.

288
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Speaker 1: What are the kids now singing a bit of wow

289
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Speaker 1: to their parents?

290
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Speaker 3: What really wonderful?

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Speaker 1: Isn't it? Wet and Gushi, Yeah, he's the new version.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of wet angushy, I hear about you first discovered

293
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Speaker 2: for mega man by being overheard in urinal. I mean

294
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Speaker 2: talk about things coming out of you know, left of center. Yeah,

295
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Speaker 2: opportunities landing in your laps.

296
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Speaker 1: The footy club. I played football. All I wanted to

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Speaker 1: do as a kid was be a footballer, So I

298
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Speaker 1: wanted to play AFL. I worked really hard. It turns

299
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Speaker 1: out I wasn't very good. I wasn't good enough.

300
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Speaker 3: That's a shame. Yeah, that's a real shame.

301
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Speaker 1: But I was okay at singing. And I was in

302
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Speaker 1: the toilets one night there was a band playing and

303
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Speaker 1: I was having a having a whizz at the urinal

304
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Speaker 1: and this guy heard me singing and he's like, is

305
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Speaker 1: he pretty good singing? I'm like, a all right. He's like,

306
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Speaker 1: my brother's in a band. Do you want to come

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Speaker 1: down to rehearsal. They're looking for a singer. So it's like, yeah, sure.

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Speaker 3: I've been discovered in a urinal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So I started doing that. My dad was a

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Speaker 1: bit nervous that I'd be hanging out with older men

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Speaker 1: in a in a rehearsal room and stuff, so he

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Speaker 1: drove me there and watched the rehearsal and chaperone, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a chaperone, even though I had my license and a car,

314
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Speaker 1: so okay, cute, but yeah, so I did that for

315
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Speaker 1: it was three or four years with those guys, and

316
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Speaker 1: then then I did astraanadol straight after that.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things I think is so interesting

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Speaker 2: when you speak to anyone in kind of the creative

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Speaker 2: industry who's an artist, is that there are so many

320
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Speaker 2: of us who begin and in our younger years interested

321
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Speaker 2: in music or performing, but it's very very rare. In fact,

322
00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:21,280
Speaker 2: there's so much active dissuasion against going into a career

323
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Speaker 2: in that industry because it's so competitive, because it's not

324
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Speaker 2: an obvious straightforward pathway, it can be so hard, so

325
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Speaker 2: very few people actually end up being able to make

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Speaker 2: it a career. And I had no idea until read

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Speaker 2: in the book that you actually started an electrical apprenticeship

328
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Speaker 2: of all things, but then have been able to obviously

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Speaker 2: make this your career. So I think the thing I

330
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Speaker 2: like to hammer home to people is that most people

331
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Speaker 2: have dabbled in a few different things, but that also,

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Speaker 2: even though there might be a hugely competitive industry or

333
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Speaker 2: just a few places.

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Speaker 3: Like, someone's got to make it. So how did you

335
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Speaker 3: get through?

336
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Speaker 2: Did you have any dissuasion or people being like, you

337
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Speaker 2: know that's going to be really hard for you, or

338
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Speaker 2: did you just know that this was you and you

339
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Speaker 2: tried electrical stuff and then we're like no.

340
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Speaker 1: So my dad was always like, you should have a

341
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Speaker 1: trade or have a job behind you, just in case

342
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Speaker 1: the music thing doesn't work out. Although I changed schools

343
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Speaker 1: at the end of year ten to do in year

344
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Speaker 1: eleven so I to do drama and music, turns out

345
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Speaker 1: I got a D plus my singing exam, so very much.

346
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Speaker 3: Like distinguished plus.

347
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Speaker 1: E plus my oral exam in music. I dropped out

348
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Speaker 1: of drama at the end of your eleven because I

349
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Speaker 1: didn't think I was good enough and I felt like

350
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Speaker 1: I got really nervous and I didn't want to put

351
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Speaker 1: myself out there in front of people acting. Singing, I

352
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,200
Speaker 1: seemed to be fine, but for the exam I didn't

353
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Speaker 1: really work hard enough at all, like on the songs

354
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Speaker 1: that I had to learn for the syllabus, and I

355
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,320
Speaker 1: learn't really really really valuable lesson through high school you

356
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,320
Speaker 1: actually have to work hard to get results, Like, oh wow,

357
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Speaker 1: that sucks. I didn't realize like that was a thing.

358
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Speaker 3: My least favorite lesson in life it's kind of.

359
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Speaker 1: Like you only get out what you put in, so rude,

360
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Speaker 1: oh horrible, And I just had no work ethic. I

361
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,800
Speaker 1: hated school, didn't really like it, not hated, but just

362
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,000
Speaker 1: didn't really like it. I just felt like you had

363
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,240
Speaker 1: to go. Then I loved doing electrical work. I did

364
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,280
Speaker 1: it as a work experience kind of thing. So I

365
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,400
Speaker 1: went and did a pre apprenticeship. I've got an electric

366
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,280
Speaker 1: I got a job. Then I found out I was

367
00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:12,520
Speaker 1: terribly color blind, which I sort of knew. I was

368
00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:13,800
Speaker 1: a big colorblinde ye.

369
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Speaker 3: And your brother was colorblind.

370
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Speaker 1: Yeah, he wanted to be a cadet in the Air

371
00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,040
Speaker 1: Force and didn't get into that because he was colorblind. Yeah.

372
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,280
Speaker 1: After being at Melbourne High he was super smart. And

373
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Speaker 1: then just know it was a bit dismayed, I think

374
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,320
Speaker 1: from not doing that and then didn't really try much

375
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,240
Speaker 1: at high school. I think I kind of did the

376
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,880
Speaker 1: same things, like what's the point? What am I doing? Yeah,

377
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,240
Speaker 1: did heaps of jobs though after that, where there was

378
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,200
Speaker 1: mowing lawns at like disused mobile service stations. I put

379
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,160
Speaker 1: up signs at the airport and had a big advertising banners.

380
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,600
Speaker 1: I did that for a while. I was like all

381
00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:49,000
Speaker 1: my mates were tradees, so I just did landscaping work.

382
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,480
Speaker 1: I did carpentry work, plastering, yeah, a bit of concreting.

383
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,760
Speaker 1: There's nothing that I haven't really, not one trade I

384
00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,440
Speaker 1: haven't tried out. And then yeah, I just kept singing

385
00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,640
Speaker 1: on the weekends and the man was going pretty well,

386
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:01,080
Speaker 1: and a friend of mine said, do you want to

387
00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,320
Speaker 1: try it for this TV shot? My gosh, So I

388
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,800
Speaker 1: was always gigging, I suppose, yeah.

389
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,320
Speaker 3: Okay, and it's like in the background you were still

390
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:08,639
Speaker 3: doing it.

391
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my thing. I was always gigging, but

392
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,480
Speaker 1: I was working like every day, and then I also

393
00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:15,840
Speaker 1: working every weekend. So while everyone was at partying, I

394
00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,600
Speaker 1: just worked, just trying to save up for a house

395
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:19,080
Speaker 1: or something.

396
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, real sense of or goals, Yeah I had.

397
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,080
Speaker 1: I honestly, that's all I really wanted to do. I

398
00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,800
Speaker 1: was like, oh, but what I was doing was not

399
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,679
Speaker 1: listening to myself at all during that time. I just

400
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,040
Speaker 1: put all my focus into work and did no self

401
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,080
Speaker 1: reflecting for ten fifteen years. Yeah.

402
00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,639
Speaker 2: And that's like the exact underlying theme and philosophy is

403
00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:42,800
Speaker 2: this show is swapping that sees the day mentality, which

404
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,919
Speaker 2: is not a bad thing. To work incredibly hard and

405
00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,760
Speaker 2: have kind of financial metrics and goals or certain like

406
00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,840
Speaker 2: linear goals for yourself, but when they're totally detached from

407
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,320
Speaker 2: your own fulfillment and the intersection of your talents and passions,

408
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,160
Speaker 2: like it doesn't really lead to a very happy life,

409
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,159
Speaker 2: even if on the outside it looks amazing. And I

410
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,760
Speaker 2: get really fascinated by the sliding doors moments in life

411
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,119
Speaker 2: that then sometimes give you an opportunity to be pulled

412
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:07,680
Speaker 2: out of that and back towards the thing that you

413
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,520
Speaker 2: really love. So I mean Australian I it was such

414
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:11,080
Speaker 2: a pivot.

415
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, huge, huge, It just made me realize, oh, I

416
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,959
Speaker 1: really love this. And I didn't just love the performing aspect.

417
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,080
Speaker 1: I mean, going from singing thirty songs a night in

418
00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,400
Speaker 1: a pub band just singing just one song or half

419
00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,199
Speaker 1: a song really like I'm in It and a half. I

420
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,040
Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is pretty good. But so I

421
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,800
Speaker 1: had so much more free time. Yeah, so I learned

422
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,160
Speaker 1: how the camera operators are working. I went and sat

423
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,760
Speaker 1: up in the desk in the studio with the director

424
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,600
Speaker 1: and learned what they did and learn like spoke to

425
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:37,399
Speaker 1: the producers about what they were kind of doing with

426
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,359
Speaker 1: each of us like the character. We were characters really,

427
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,720
Speaker 1: you know. We were the very first reality singing show

428
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,720
Speaker 1: since pop Stars.

429
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,840
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, oh my god, you were the first season.

430
00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:52,440
Speaker 1: That's right. And I didn't do very well at pop Stars.

431
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,240
Speaker 1: I also auditioned for that show, did you really? Yeah,

432
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,080
Speaker 1: not for the first one, the second one. I think

433
00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,400
Speaker 1: it became scandalous. If you remember.

434
00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,520
Speaker 3: Opstar is what a throwback?

435
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think I was eighteen when I did that.

436
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,800
Speaker 1: So yeah. So three years later astrain Idol came around.

437
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,200
Speaker 1: It's crazy. I was always sort of trying for stuff

438
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:15,120
Speaker 1: but not quite knowing how to do it very well. Yeah,

439
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,399
Speaker 1: and then I sort of just learned on the job.

440
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,879
Speaker 1: And then we toured with a national tour. Then I

441
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,119
Speaker 1: wrote an album, and then to the album, and then

442
00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,239
Speaker 1: the record company dropped me. And I was like, I

443
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,040
Speaker 1: thought this just kept going up. Yes, thought that was

444
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,520
Speaker 1: the directory smooth yeah, yeah, but then it was a

445
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,840
Speaker 1: full jump off the cliff. You know, the rollercoaster has

446
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,760
Speaker 1: to come back down. Yeah, and now now what you know?

447
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,200
Speaker 1: Your manager doesn't want you to sing in pubs anymore

448
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,359
Speaker 1: because that's what you used to do. It's got something

449
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,159
Speaker 1: else for you to do, like, I don't really know

450
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:44,640
Speaker 1: what else to do. I don't know how to write

451
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,239
Speaker 1: music really well. I don't really know how to do

452
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,160
Speaker 1: any of the stuff. And that's when I got into

453
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:52,320
Speaker 1: two thousand and five. It was a couple of years

454
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,800
Speaker 1: after Idle. I did Grease the Arena spectacular, John Farnham

455
00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:00,359
Speaker 1: making Zavanski nat Bass, huge cast, incredible, and I met

456
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,760
Speaker 1: all these really wonderful musical theater people. This incredible like

457
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,159
Speaker 1: work ethic, that work hard, party hard. I was like,

458
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:08,639
Speaker 1: I want I want to be friends with these guys.

459
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,000
Speaker 1: You know I love. I had this party hard ethic,

460
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,080
Speaker 1: but I didn't have the work hard and I wanted,

461
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,159
Speaker 1: you know, them to respect to me. Is that I

462
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:15,639
Speaker 1: didn't have it.

463
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,000
Speaker 3: I had the party of it, just not the word downpat.

464
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,480
Speaker 1: How do I become friends with these people? Or you

465
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,600
Speaker 1: have to gain their respect to be their peers. So

466
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,159
Speaker 1: I sort of fell in love with musical theater a

467
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,560
Speaker 1: bit and heard about the show called Wicked. So I

468
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,440
Speaker 1: went overseas and I saw Wicked and We Will Rock

469
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:34,840
Speaker 1: You and Avenue Q all this sort of new musicals

470
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,159
Speaker 1: that I was like, Oh, it's not all Rogers and Hammerstar.

471
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 1: It's not all Andrew Lloyd Webber classical style singing, cool

472
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,399
Speaker 1: this pop and rock singing sort of stuff. I was like,

473
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,280
Speaker 1: I can I can do that. I saw Adam Garcia,

474
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,919
Speaker 1: Helen Delly Moore, a couple of Aussies in the show. However,

475
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,199
Speaker 1: if they can do it, you know, you've got that

476
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:51,879
Speaker 1: old days You've got to see it to be it

477
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:52,359
Speaker 1: kind of thing.

478
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,240
Speaker 3: And it's like that visibility of your dreams totally.

479
00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 1: So I found from that day that I would get

480
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:02,040
Speaker 1: into Wicked. So I came home from my drunken overseas

481
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,200
Speaker 1: backpacking trip. You know, I did four or five months

482
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,160
Speaker 1: of just traveling the world, spending all of my money.

483
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 1: It was awesome, the best thing I've ever done. And

484
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,879
Speaker 1: then came home and worked really hard, like took singing lessons,

485
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 1: acting lessons, dance lessons. I went, now, I've got to

486
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:16,880
Speaker 1: do this. This is the thing I'm it's calling out

487
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,520
Speaker 1: for me. Yeah. This character Fierro dancing through life, this

488
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,960
Speaker 1: sort of joky, kind of charismatic cool guy, not cool

489
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 1: at all. I'm not cool. We've established that he was

490
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 1: like it was like dancing through life. Like I was like,

491
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 1: that was me. I was dancing through life. And then

492
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:34,639
Speaker 1: he found the thing that was the most important thing

493
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 1: that he'd ever seen. In the show It's alphabet, but

494
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,119
Speaker 1: for me it was musical theater. Yeah. I found the

495
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,440
Speaker 1: thing that gave me real purpose. And I was like, oh,

496
00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,879
Speaker 1: so I got to relive that every single night, that

497
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,920
Speaker 1: my own sort of personal story journey, yeah, within another story. Yeah.

498
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:51,639
Speaker 2: And this is what I love so much is that

499
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 2: when you're telling the story now in order, it all

500
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 2: makes sense, Like the fascination with different styles of music

501
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 2: and storytelling, and then going through Australian Idol, and then

502
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 2: learning all those skills and then getting a bit more confidence,

503
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 2: and then going actively after your dreams. But if you

504
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 2: spoke to you back at any of those stages, it

505
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 2: wouldn't have made sense what you were going to become.

506
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,679
Speaker 2: And I think anyone who's in there earlier stages it

507
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 2: will eventually all make sense. It will eventually all make sense.

508
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 2: But also even the great Robert Mills from Australian Idol

509
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 2: doesn't walk into these opportunities either. Like I think it

510
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 2: looks kind of smooth now, but you hadn't been in

511
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 2: musical theater, You didn't have an inn, you didn't have

512
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 2: a foot in the door and you had to go

513
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 2: on train as well. So it's like one part life

514
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,840
Speaker 2: conspiring to help you get to where you need to go,

515
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 2: but the other parties you're going out and seizing that

516
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 2: and grabbing it and kind of making it happen. But

517
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 2: I imagine there.

518
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 3: Was like a lot of that self doubt.

519
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 2: Worthiness imposter syndrome going on as well, not necessarily having

520
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 2: come from musical theater.

521
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,480
Speaker 1: Huge, huge amount. I remember my brother just saying, don't

522
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:50,280
Speaker 1: read the blogs.

523
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:52,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, don't read the exults.

524
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,880
Speaker 1: So blogs for a big thing back in the early

525
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 1: two thousands.

526
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 3: Between newspapers and social media they think or blogs.

527
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. When I got asked because I said to my manager,

528
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 1: you need to get me this audition. And when I

529
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 1: got cast and they didn't want to see me in

530
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 1: the beginning, wow, So she had to push really hard

531
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 1: to see me. I had four auditions over like three

532
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: or four months with American creatives, and I thought I

533
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 1: stuffed up the first audition, And years like after I'd

534
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: finished got this audition, I found out that the director

535
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,679
Speaker 1: actually grabbed the picture after my audition and put it

536
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 1: aside and went and then every audition she'd grab my

537
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 1: picture and go, literally, we're going to put the show

538
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:32,879
Speaker 1: around this guy. And she had no idea who I was,

539
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,400
Speaker 1: didn't know I was Astralia Idol. Didn't I know, way, Yeah,

540
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 1: I found out later. She didn't tell because I was

541
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 1: still like doing all these auditions, freaking out it.

542
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:41,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, thinking they.

543
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 2: Hate you like you never you always walk away being

544
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 2: more critical of yourself than anyone else. Ever, is not

545
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 2: realizing that, like they singled you out as in a.

546
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,400
Speaker 3: Good pile like that was not the well let's get

547
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 3: rid of that guy. I was over there.

548
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: But yeah, I didn't really believe in myself. So I

549
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 1: would write down positive affirmation stuff and I've never done

550
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: this is I did it going into Idle, I wrote

551
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 1: to get into it. I was in the top forty.

552
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 1: I wrote down, I do believe that I can be

553
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 1: the guy to be in the top twelve, Like I was, like,

554
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 1: I do belong here. And then I did the same

555
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: thing for Wicked every time before I went into the audition,

556
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: I wrote down, I've done the work, I do deserve this. Yeah, yeahda,

557
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: Like I just wrote down some positive before I went in.

558
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,120
Speaker 1: It was and I'm not a believer in the secret

559
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 1: or anything. Like that.

560
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 3: But but that's manifesting. Its kind of you kind of

561
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:31,360
Speaker 3: kind of did the.

562
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 1: Secret, dude, manifesting kind of it kind.

563
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 3: Of works, kind of worked, Yeah, and it.

564
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: Kind of does. I think manifesting is good as long

565
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 1: as it's not deluded. You still you still have to

566
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 1: do the work as well. You can't just say it

567
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: a million dollars. Yeah, Yeah, that doesn't happen. You still

568
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 1: have to yea, do the work and to manifest it properly.

569
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's.

570
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 1: And also there's an incredible matter of luck. I also

571
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: have to point this out. There is so much luck

572
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 1: involved in anyone's great success story. There is always there's

573
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: always hard work, but there's always luck. There's so many

574
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: people trying to do the thing that we're trying to do. Yeah,

575
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: and so much luck goes into it. But there is

576
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 1: a thing my stepfathers talked about years ago, and I

577
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: don't talk about him a lot with much fondness, but

578
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: I can still reflect on some good things.

579
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:20,760
Speaker 2: Phil.

580
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 1: This is Phil. He said, the more I practiced, the

581
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: luckier I got.

582
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 3: Yes, I love that.

583
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: It's a good little bit.

584
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 2: I also feel like you can see a lot of

585
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 2: people be position themselves where luck is going to strike,

586
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 2: but they're not converted into anything. I think part of

587
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 2: imposter syndrome and self doubt, which is always a big

588
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 2: conversation on the show because everyone has it at every

589
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 2: stage in their life.

590
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: I got it right now, is that?

591
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 3: Yeah? And me too always is that.

592
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 2: You attribute too much of your success to luck because

593
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 2: it's easier to say I was just lucky. But I

594
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,360
Speaker 2: think a lot of people get lucky situations or might

595
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,479
Speaker 2: have been in the same rooms as you or in

596
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 2: the same situations and not used it, so it's not

597
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 2: ever only like like we'll never get you all the

598
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 2: way there, And I think people forget how much of

599
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 2: them converting that like into something is part of the

600
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:11,959
Speaker 2: story as well.

601
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, and as said before, like doing the work beforehand,

602
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 1: like all the experience of just doing gigs on stage

603
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 1: at pubs or whatever, or setting up the cables or

604
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: chatting to the crew, like I know how much it

605
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 1: means to put a big show together, or all the

606
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: things that all the elements, And I think that helps

607
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 1: when you walk into an audition as well. Yeah, Like

608
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 1: having done a bunch of stuff, you've got a bit

609
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: more confidence within yourself because yeah, you also know what

610
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: it's like to not do the gigs. So the last

611
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: couple of years, every night that I'm on stage, at

612
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 1: the moment, I'm like, yeah, how good is this? They claps?

613
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 1: The only job in the world. We clapped, The only

614
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: job in the world where you finish a shift and

615
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: people go very good.

616
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 2: I feel like we should bring in just an applause

617
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 2: general rule, Like someone says me a good breakfast, Yes,

618
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 2: slashed avocado, it was appause worthy, Yes, thank you.

619
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 1: I thought this, like I wanted to call this thing

620
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 1: like a giving back kind of the gratitude kind of thing,

621
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: but like a standing o. So what does a standing oh? So,

622
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 1: like maybe it's someone at the register just doing a

623
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: great job putting them in the bags, standing out.

624
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: Or doing it to the beat, like creating a beat

625
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 2: as she can scance it through.

626
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, if it's a good breakfast, I will

627
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: always like thanks chef, like.

628
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, cute, give credit with appreciation, Give credit with credit.

629
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 3: We call that appreciation.

630
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: Oh this is good.

631
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 3: Yeap, yep, I'm taking that one as well.

632
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 2: Well. You have obviously gone on to convert what I'm

633
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: sure has been a lot of lucky circumstances to also

634
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 2: a lot of incredible hard work putting yourself out there and.

635
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 3: Going through some ups and downs.

636
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 2: Like I think people forget that the definition of an

637
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,719
Speaker 2: artist's journey is rejection. Like you are constantly facing rejection.

638
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 2: You don't have the stability of like one job for

639
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 2: twenty years. It just doesn't work that way. So there's

640
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 2: so much hard stuff that goes on behind the scenes,

641
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 2: But there's also so many highlights, Like there are too

642
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 2: many here to list. You've gone from oh, I might

643
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 2: do musical theater to now being in Hairspray, which is

644
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 2: why you're back in Melbourn, which is so exciting. But

645
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 2: I think also I really want to use the rest

646
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 2: of the episode on the book because it just is

647
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 2: such an incredible I think one of the things that's

648
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 2: really beautiful is how much you've talked about storytelling and

649
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 2: injecting what you've been going through in your life into

650
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 2: the roles that you've played on stage. I feel like

651
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: you've also done that in the book. It's come from

652
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 2: the languishing that we all felt in COVID, the lockdowns,

653
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 2: losing the joy in most things, even for quite optimistic,

654
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 2: bubbly happy people and sharing how you built that up,

655
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 2: the introspect that it led to, and the reflections on

656
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 2: so much at the same time as you were actually

657
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: experiencing it, I think makes it so powerful. So can

658
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 2: you talk us through how you went from Okay, I've

659
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 2: done the singing, I've done musical theater, and now I'm

660
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 2: going to write.

661
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: It came about after losing a couple of mates in

662
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: twenty twenty to cancer. Cancer.

663
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 3: For the cancer absolutely.

664
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: For all those who've lost someone, it's horrible. And then

665
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: during that time especially, I'm sure we've all been affected

666
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: or no, someone was affected by not being able to

667
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: get to the hospital say goodbye, but not being able

668
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: to go to the funeral to say goodbye or to

669
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: grieve among your tribe. It was really difficult. So I

670
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: didn't get to any of those funerals because of lockdown

671
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: and border closures, and that was pretty pretty shit. And

672
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: then I found I didn't really process it well because

673
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: I was just there with Tunny. And Tonny is great.

674
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 1: She is an excellent sounding board for stuff, as we've

675
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 1: talked about. But I caught up with mates and went

676
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: back to drinking when the doors were open again. You know,

677
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: we're allowed outside, and then I was like, oh, I'm

678
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: sad because alcohols are depressant and I haven't really dealt

679
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: with anything. But yeah, I haven't really dealt with the

680
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: fact that I haven't been working, or I haven't that

681
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: I've lost a couple of friends, or oh this is

682
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: not great. So I wrote about that, that state of

683
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: languish she and the sadness that comes with it, and

684
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: also just putting a hand up saying, oh, I'm actually

685
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: not doing so good at the moment, and people a

686
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: lot of people wrote back. I was like, that's really brave.

687
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't think it's actually I didn't

688
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: see it as being brave. I just felt this is

689
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: how I felt. And the publisher saw the article that

690
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: went up in the Age and City Morning Herald and said,

691
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 1: would you be interested in writing a book about something

692
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: about something like this? And I was toying with the

693
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: idea of a story or a show about identity and Australia,

694
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: Australia's identity. How I think we're just in our youthful

695
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: twenties at the moment.

696
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 2: As a country trying to work a workshit, and we're

697
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 2: still a bit drunk, bit hungover.

698
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: All, yeah, we'ren't quite We've.

699
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 2: Got a bit going on in our in our brain

700
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: hormones so much.

701
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 3: Just I totally agree.

702
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: Just partying, we're just blowing everything up and digging things

703
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: out of the ground, not really planning for the future living.

704
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: We're in our twenties right, so we're going through this

705
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: transitional phase anyway. I said, Oh, that's too big. I said, Look,

706
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,959
Speaker 1: all I can do is probably reflect on what I

707
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: know about identity myself and maybe is like what we

708
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: talk about the Aussie bloke, and that's how I see

709
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,239
Speaker 1: myself and a little bit different and weird because I

710
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: like footy and I like musical theater and I like

711
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: actually that how many of how many blokes like that? Actually?

712
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: Are they more blokes like that? Or are they more

713
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: like tattooed blokes than yeah yeah, yeah, Southern Coast tattoo

714
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: wearing blokes that I don't really hang out with or

715
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: don't really know, but they also exist. So what is

716
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: it to be an aussy man? And what is masculinity?

717
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: Is it always toxic? And how much are we reflecting

718
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: or self reflecting? How much? How many other blokes are

719
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: actually doing this or want to do this? But just

720
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: don't know how. And I was like, I don't really know,

721
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: so let's find out. So I asked a bunch of

722
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 1: experts and that's how it sort of came about. It

723
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: was just going to be a series of sort of interviews.

724
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: I don't know whether that was going to be a podcast,

725
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: but then I thought, I think for me, I like

726
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: the book. I like the way that you can reflect

727
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: during a book. You can put it down and just

728
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: have a moment. We're so caught up in binging everything

729
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: on Netflix since like it just starts without you and

730
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: I don't even know what happened in the last episode

731
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: started the next one like oh cool, cool cool. So

732
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: I kind of like the idea of the book is

733
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: is the time to self reflect. They're really good, as

734
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: is a podcast as well, but like something about the pages,

735
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: maybe you want to write some stuff in them, or

736
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: you can do all that sort of stuff as well,

737
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: or at the end of every chapter just wrote stop just.

738
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,959
Speaker 3: Think, yeah, do some notes. I did that too. Look

739
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 3: I've got dot points.

740
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: Man chapter, think for five just think for five minutes,

741
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: think for two minutes. Yeah, about how you feel about

742
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: that bit? Does that resonate with you at all or

743
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: does it not resonate with you? I think we just

744
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: don't stop enough to do that. Yeah.

745
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: I also think one of the things with particularly with

746
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 2: quite heavy or shocking statistics that really need the impact,

747
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: really needs to land on you for the impact of

748
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 2: the rest of the conversation around it to go in

749
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 2: is seeing it written down. There's something about that. There's

750
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: something about reading your vulnerability, Like talking about it is

751
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 2: one thing, but knowing that you have committed a lot

752
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 2: of stories to paper, it's so permanent as well. I

753
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 2: don't know, there's something a lot more powerful I find

754
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 2: And if you did a podcast series it would be amazing.

755
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 3: But you couldn't take that with you anywhere, or you.

756
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 2: Couldn't like scribble all over it or I don't know,

757
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 2: hold it with you when you were having a moment.

758
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: Like my parents will like like, why are you sharing all.

759
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 3: These I don't know. I don't know really because.

760
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: It's important to be able to share this stuff so

761
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: then other people feel like they can share their stuff. Yeah,

762
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: that's how I felt, like why are you sharing this?

763
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: Like my mom's like, have I been a bad mom?

764
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: I like no, If you read to the end, Mum,

765
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: you'll see that. I really love our relationship now, like

766
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: that I am the man I am today because of

767
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: these things. Yeah, and I'm a good guy. I'm a

768
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: great I'm a great guy. And also my brother's good.

769
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: Good humans. You know, you've raised really good humans because

770
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: of all these things. So my dad's like, oh, I

771
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: don't know if you. I don't know why you put

772
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: that thing about your mother. I was like, it's my

773
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: it's my story, it's my story. Yeah, yeah, totally. Everyone

774
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: has their own version of events. Everyone has their own

775
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: story going on all the time. Like you and I

776
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: even now right sitting here, we have our own dialogue

777
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: going on. But you're thinking exactly different. You look at

778
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: my left eye.

779
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 3: I actually wasn't doing it, and now I remember that

780
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 3: I do.

781
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 2: Oh man, well, I love that it started as a

782
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 2: real investigation into sort of what's going on behind the

783
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 2: bravado of the average AUSSI bloke, Like there's so much

784
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 2: bravado there's like I love you described it as the

785
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 2: Tony Lockett, that Plugger cross with a little bit less

786
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 2: attractive version of Feugh Jackman, Like that's who we all envision,

787
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 2: which it is, Like there's something something endearing about the

788
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: AUSSI Bloke, the Mean three Bage.

789
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: The like.

790
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: There's just this beautiful picture that we resonate with a lot,

791
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 2: but investigating whether that is actually who the majority of

792
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 2: Australian males are. I think that was amazing as a

793
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 2: starting question because I think it's something we don't talk

794
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: about that much. But then realizing and uncovering through a

795
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 2: lot of research that there is a bit of a

796
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 2: distorted perception of masculinity going on, and that perpetuating that

797
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 2: is creating a lot of problems.

798
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 3: I mentioned to you before.

799
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,800
Speaker 2: Every year on Men's Health Week we do an episode

800
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 2: looking at the concept of masculinity and how it's changing

801
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 2: and how men's mental health does need its own area

802
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 2: because it's a very different conversation to what is going

803
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 2: on in the female landscape. And doctor Zack Sidler, we've

804
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 2: had him on as well, and he's mentioned a lot

805
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: throughout the book that we're in the teething stages of

806
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 2: something something's changing, we're all not really sure what to

807
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 2: do with it. I love that Jamilla Risby, she's also

808
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 2: been on the show and she's amazing different who I

809
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 2: admire a lot. How women and the female perspective of

810
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 2: masculinity and what we're expecting in the space we're creating

811
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 2: is also really important. There's just so many elements of it.

812
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: But can you talk to us a little bit about

813
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 2: what the current understanding of masculinity is where you see

814
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 2: the problems and also as someone who has very comfortably

815
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 2: been able to do the footy sport manly thing and

816
00:35:53,520 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 2: be in musical theaters that are less man less traditionally manly,

817
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 2: and how that's sort of yeah, playing out for you

818
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 2: and why you think it's so important to write about.

819
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: Have you know that that singing and dancing has been

820
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 1: very manly for many men.

821
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:11,280
Speaker 3: Very manly.

822
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, also ballet, like talk about a good physiqueat male

823
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 2: ballet dancers.

824
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 1: Parry Garside does ballet and punches holes in people.

825
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

826
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 2: He was on the show a couple of weeks ago

827
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 2: and I was like, this eight pac thing that's very musculine,

828
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 2: very masculine.

829
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 1: He's someone who's definitely breaking down the stigma of mental

830
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 1: health and blogs and what it is to be a man.

831
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: I really like him. I would love to have him

832
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: on the in the book, but there was already had

833
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: so many, so many people, but he was definitely on

834
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: the list, hoping to get a copy to him as well.

835
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: I think there's a hangover from our grandfathers and fathers,

836
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: this sort of stoical bloke who doesn't talk about things,

837
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: who goes to work, comes home, he is raising the

838
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 1: kids twenty thirty minutes a week, like the wife does

839
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: all the low touch methods. The wife does most of

840
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 1: the new nurturing and that sort of stuff. He does

841
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: the disciplinary stuff, and that has shifted over time, like

842
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: definitely over time. I'm talking about more of our grandfather's here,

843
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: and I'm generalizing as well that I'm sure there were

844
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: grandfathers and blogs that weren't necessarily doing that as well.

845
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:17,720
Speaker 1: Majority of the people and there's the sort of stick

846
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 1: your chin out and don't cry, don't talk about your feelings,

847
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: and that happened for a long time because boys don't cry.

848
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: You don't want to be a worse, you don't want

849
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 1: to be a sissy, and the same goes for girls.

850
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,439
Speaker 1: You don't want to be too brave because you don't

851
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 1: want to be too bossy instead of like, oh no,

852
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:34,720
Speaker 1: they're just being assertive.

853
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 2: In the corporate world, so difficult to navigate that fine

854
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 2: line between masculinity and feminine for every gender has trouble

855
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 2: I think with that balance.

856
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 1: And Jimilla talks about that a lot as well. So

857
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: I think we are shifting. The shift is happening, but

858
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: all these shifts take time, and we're expected to not

859
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: only be the breadwinner, the bloki that I will push

860
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 1: you out of the way in case something heavy is coming,

861
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 1: you know, like I will stop a fight. Is I

862
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: have to stop this fight from hurting the people around

863
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: me that I love to also being able to talk

864
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,280
Speaker 1: about it later, and holding your partner or being held

865
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: by your partner, Like there's there's so many things that

866
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: blokes are expected to do now, and I think that

867
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 1: is confusing for a lot of blokes, and they just

868
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: don't know how to put the hand up and so

869
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: I just don't know what you want. And for a

870
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: lot of women, it's just creating that safe space for

871
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 1: your partner. And I'm talking about CIS relationships, heterosexual CIS

872
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: relationships at the moment with any kind of partner that

873
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: you have opened that space, open that door for them

874
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: to walk in. Throughout the sixties and seventies, we were

875
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,439
Speaker 1: women's rights movement was moving across the world, and women

876
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: were moving into more masculine kind of male dominated areas,

877
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 1: which is fantastic because of the quality of crisis. Of

878
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: course this is the best thing to happen, but possibly

879
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: those traditional female spaces weren't being opened up to men,

880
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: or they didn't know that they could walk into those

881
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 1: spaces or how to do it or how to do it. Yeah,

882
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: So I always say I talked to Mrasiana this and

883
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: Jamilla and my friend Michelle Brazier, like, maybe women, this

884
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: is the This is the hardest thing to say without

885
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,399
Speaker 1: the accouncel right now, but we're not very good at it.

886
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 1: Give us a hand, yeah, Like I know what's going

887
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: to be like to take the high ground. You're like,

888
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: we have been trying so hard romp for years to

889
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: just be equal, and now you want our help Like yeah,

890
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: just like yeah, yeah, because that's that's how it works.

891
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 1: That's how the world works. Like to get what you need,

892
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: you have to help help others. You have to be

893
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 1: a moltruistic and not expect a lot back from it,

894
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: but you will get so much back from it. Just

895
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 1: open that door to the conversation. There are also a

896
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: lot of women in CIS relationships that are like, I

897
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: love my man just being the breadwinner. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah,

898
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: And I feel that almost those women feel a lot of.

899
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 2: Pressure to be otherwise, to be otherwise, to have to

900
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 2: they're giving up their feminism.

901
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 1: Correct, correct, but like, if that's what you like, then

902
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 1: that's what you like, and that's also okay. Well, there's

903
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: a massive spectrum. There is no black and white, so

904
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: much gray era we sit in the grays a lot.

905
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: I think we're searching for these binary answers for everything.

906
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: But everyone likes different things and that's okay. Just find

907
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: your person that likes the similar things to you. That's

908
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: I think is the most important thing is to open

909
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 1: up the dialogue, have the conversation with your partner and

910
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: with your friends about what it is that you like.

911
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: Start with a mys Briggs personality test at the very least. Yeah,

912
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: am I introverted or extroverted? Yeah?

913
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 2: I think it is so interesting because it is a

914
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 2: time of massive flux and change in like every area

915
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,919
Speaker 2: of society, but particularly in the gender roles, and there

916
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,399
Speaker 2: are increasing situations that we've just never encountered before. It's

917
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 2: not very often that like women are out earning their

918
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 2: male partners in this relationships often and that's new and

919
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 2: that changes the dynamic. And then there's a lot that

920
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 2: you talk about with the unpaid work in a family

921
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 2: that women have traditionally borne, a huge load of men

922
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 2: haven't but are now but aren't really equipped for it.

923
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 2: And then the biggest problem is without men's circles and

924
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 2: a lot of men being what you refer to as

925
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 2: man children who just haven't let like women do it

926
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: so much development through conversations, through women's circles, through just

927
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 2: ventilating things with their friends and realizing and making revelations

928
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:24,240
Speaker 2: and all that stuff. And because of that traditional stereotypical,

929
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 2: stoic male men are bottling everything and then it comes.

930
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 3: Out in in rage.

931
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 2: You have a big chapter on anger, a big chapter

932
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 2: on suicide, but also behaviors like going to alcoholism and

933
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 2: drugs for escapism because it's like, what do I do with.

934
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 3: All these feelings?

935
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,919
Speaker 2: And I think again, because of the stoicism, even once

936
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 2: you are feeling that, men are not talking about it

937
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 2: and then are not getting the help they need to

938
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 2: know what to do about it. And its Yeah, it's

939
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 2: a very difficult time, but everyone needs to be part

940
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 2: of the conversation to redefine that masculinity.

941
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, men need to open up more and men

942
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: need to have a bit more be okay with having

943
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: those conversations. And also whether it's a female friend or

944
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: a male friend or non gended friend, just to have

945
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 1: the conversation or create the space for men, you have

946
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 1: to build the trust for a lot of women. I'm

947
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: going to generalize here, you will have these conversations all

948
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: the time, like you said, and you're having these revelations.

949
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: We're not doing that like talk about the book, like

950
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: come home from chatting with like with my mates, you

951
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 1: go to the pub and you've had a day maybe

952
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: on the punt at the pub, and then you, oh,

953
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,479
Speaker 1: how's some and so how's his wife doing? How the kids?

954
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:35,760
Speaker 1: I don't know, we did talk.

955
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 3: About that, George, just like how's how's he going? How's

956
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 3: his wife? And you're like, I don't know, what did

957
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 3: you talk about, dude.

958
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: We'll just talked about like gags and everything else. We

959
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 1: didn't really talk about it. But it's okay. We definitely

960
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 1: need that space. You need that banter, you need the

961
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: place to go and have those chats. But also you

962
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 1: just need to have the deeper, meaning, more meaningful chats

963
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: to decide. Gus walland talk about he likes the idea

964
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: of ninety five percent banter five percent real chat. I

965
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: would like it to be more like ten to fifteen percent.

966
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 3: I know. I'm like, that's very intense. That's very intense.

967
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: It's five percent chat. I'm like, oh, I'd probably like

968
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: a bit more like for blokes, but.

969
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 3: Look a bit more banter, a little bit.

970
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, just a little bit more real chat. I would

971
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: really Oh wait.

972
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 2: So it wasn't it ninety five percent real chat? No,

973
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 2: five percent real chat? Oh yeah, no, we want a

974
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 2: little bit more than I thought it was the other

975
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:26,839
Speaker 2: way around.

976
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 1: I was like, whoa, he was like ninety five percent

977
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: banter five percent real chat. Because talking also about all

978
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 1: your feelings and emotions, it's exhausting. We get compassion fatigue.

979
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: It's like watching the news twenty four seven. You're just

980
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: constantly giving out empathy to all the sad things that happening.

981
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 1: If you're constantly doing that to your friends, like, that's

982
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: that's exhausting. I just feel sad. It's like for my psychologists,

983
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: for my psychotherapist, sorry for Paul. We'll talk about in

984
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 1: the book. He's amazing, Like are you okay? Like everyone

985
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 1: are you? Everyone's learning stuff he has I've got, he's

986
00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: got his partner and he's got someone else he talks

987
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: to be like always feel like are you doing it?

988
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 1: Is everyone off learning all this stuff? I feel like

989
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: it's like John Coffee, like healing, you know, like you're

990
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 1: taking all this stuff, You've got to release it somewhere

991
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:10,320
Speaker 1: and then.

992
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 3: You urge it out into the world.

993
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I urge it out through tears. Yeah.

994
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 2: So this is one of the things I did want

995
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 2: to ask you. In your sort of journey, There's there's

996
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 2: a lot of anecdotes from your own exploration of the

997
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 2: spectrum of masculinity. And one thing I love this is

998
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:27,839
Speaker 2: where your sense of humor comes in. That I love

999
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 2: that it's like a lot of serious stuff, but also

1000
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 2: the lightness of your sense of humor is saying things

1001
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 2: like most men would feel more comfortable disposing of a

1002
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 2: body than admitting they needed help, which is funny but

1003
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 2: also very very true. Like I feel like it's funny

1004
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 2: until you realize actually, probably no, that'd be you say like,

1005
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 2: come and let's dig someone up.

1006
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 1: They'd be like, yeah, yeah, man, I've killed someone accidentally.

1007
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: I'll be there.

1008
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 3: I'll be there, yeah, deep chat, No, absolutely not.

1009
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: And it's true that that is often the blank because

1010
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 1: I think there's a few things that happen. There's we

1011
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: don't want to burden our mate with it because we

1012
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 1: know he's already got other stuff going on. That's the

1013
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: best thing about is going to see a psych because

1014
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 1: then you can just offload to someone and you don't

1015
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 1: feel guilty.

1016
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 3: I'll pay you to be here.

1017
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good, it's good win win situation. Shouldn't rub

1018
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: down from the physio. It's same same, Yeah, it's the

1019
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 1: same same, But it's a rub down in your brain.

1020
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: That is exactly what it is. Yeah, it's a rub

1021
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:17,240
Speaker 1: down in your brain.

1022
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 2: Down.

1023
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 3: My brain feels so good.

1024
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 1: I feel so good now. Yeah, So we don't want

1025
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: to be a burden on our others. Also, there's also

1026
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: the thing of being judged by our mates. Yeah, it's

1027
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,879
Speaker 1: the shame that I've felt this way or that I've

1028
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 1: done something. So I don't want to tell someone because

1029
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 1: then they'll feel they'll think less of me. And this

1030
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: goes for across the board. This is not just men,

1031
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 1: but we hold on to our shame we hold on

1032
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,399
Speaker 1: to our grief trauma. We don't want to talk about it, Yeah,

1033
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:43,879
Speaker 1: because we don't want a burden, and we also don't

1034
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 1: want to be judged by it, and that's not good.

1035
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: And that's I say, create their safe spaces so you

1036
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: can have those chats with your mate, because the character

1037
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: you're not allowed good amount of time is the good

1038
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: amount of the time that other person is definitely thinking

1039
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: the same thing that you have been thinking.

1040
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

1041
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 2: So one of the I want to ask, and I

1042
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 2: don't want to give away too much from the book,

1043
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 2: because I think everyone needs to go and read it.

1044
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 3: It is so beautifully.

1045
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: Powerful in sharing some of the seriously worrying statistics really

1046
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 2: in the male landscape of mental health in particular, and

1047
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 2: possible steps towards how we can fix the pressure to

1048
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 2: be a certain type of masculinity, but also weaving in

1049
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 2: your stories and I think a couple of times where

1050
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 2: it seems like that shame or that confusion have really

1051
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 2: kind of rattled to you in your own relationship with

1052
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,280
Speaker 2: your musculinity in yourself has been One was a series

1053
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 2: of panic attacks when you were at like the height

1054
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,760
Speaker 2: of Australian idol. So it looked like the dream life

1055
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 2: on the outside, but was actually a big panic disorder moment,

1056
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 2: which I've had quite a few times in they're so

1057
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,680
Speaker 2: crippling and debilitating, but we'd love to hear about that.

1058
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 2: The other one was I don't know if I'm allowed

1059
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 2: to just fill this tea that's in the book that

1060
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 2: you had a threesome with Courtney Act, which I think

1061
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,760
Speaker 2: is amazing. Did not know this and was just poring

1062
00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 2: over that chapter, like what there's a lot of penises going,

1063
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 2: so much happening, but also that kind of exploration of

1064
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 2: your sexuality and what that means for masculinity and then

1065
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 2: the labeling around that, and then also how much there

1066
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 2: was a whole chapter almost on the average penis size

1067
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 2: and libido and sex life and why are all those

1068
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 2: things markers of masculinity? But talking about your feelings isn't

1069
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:21,240
Speaker 2: like I don't get it either.

1070
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: Do I? And that's why I wanted to explore it.

1071
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:24,399
Speaker 1: Or I'll go back to the start. So the first

1072
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 1: one is the panic attacks when I was doing idle.

1073
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: Luckily for me, doing the work with therapy with the

1074
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,719
Speaker 1: therapists over the last few years, like really constantly has

1075
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 1: been really good for that. But I haven't really had

1076
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 1: any massive panic attacks probably since then.

1077
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 3: Wow.

1078
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was really lucky to address it sort of

1079
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 1: soon after. I mean, I know in the book I

1080
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:45,320
Speaker 1: definitely talk about I put it in a box, but

1081
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: I addressed it by putting it in a box. I

1082
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: deal with it.

1083
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm wrapped up all a good padlock on the box.

1084
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 1: I addressed that. I definitely addressed it, but like put

1085
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: it in a box, but I didn't Now I know

1086
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: what it is. I think when it first happened, I

1087
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: didn't know what it was at all, and it was terrifying.

1088
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: And yeah, the moment of running to that sliding door

1089
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: at the hotel and just slamming it shut and not

1090
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 1: jumping off the balcony, it was really even thinking about

1091
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: it now. Luckily for me, I just was like, what

1092
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:18,240
Speaker 1: are you? Why is that thought even in your brain?

1093
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: Like wow, okay, it was the thought of like, you

1094
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: could end it all. Now, you don't have to feel

1095
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:24,439
Speaker 1: this way. You don't have to feel scared, you don't

1096
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: have to feel like everyone wants a piece of you. Didn't.

1097
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: It was just you don't have to feel that way.

1098
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,439
Speaker 1: You could just end it. I was like oh cool, no,

1099
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 1: no thing, oh maybe or maybe like you know, like yeah,

1100
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:37,479
Speaker 1: and that all happens in the space of a split second.

1101
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: Like that all happens like in a space of a

1102
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: split second, and your heart is racing. Unluckily for me,

1103
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 1: I just slammed that door and called my brother and

1104
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:46,240
Speaker 1: just said, oh, hey.

1105
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 3: Man, I'm good. I'm good.

1106
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: He's like, hey, go, oh yeah, good day. Yeah. I

1107
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: had a really good day. Indy had a really good

1108
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 1: time with Levi. We just got got some drinks and

1109
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 1: just back at the hotel.

1110
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 3: Now, just chilling, having a good time.

1111
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: Pretended that hadn't felt all those crazy feelings again for

1112
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 1: fear of judgment or shame or whatever, or didn't want

1113
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: to burden him, didn't want him to think that I

1114
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: was not feeling great. And then the sexy stuff. It's

1115
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 1: kind of like I've never thought like even through high school,

1116
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: was attracted to people, to girls, to boys, I think,

1117
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: and not really knowing how to explore it. And then

1118
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 1: I met Courtney during Idol. I was like this, this

1119
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: beautiful creature, so confident and sexy, and and then you know,

1120
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: we had a fairly big night out. We did all

1121
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: the things, drinking and drugs, and back in the day,

1122
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: you know, I was a bit of a party part

1123
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,399
Speaker 1: of a bit of a party kid. No, oh yeah,

1124
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 1: I was a bit of a part of him.

1125
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 3: I did a lot, we did some things. We did

1126
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 3: some things anymore.

1127
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: Old now, and that sort of ended up in this

1128
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:56,879
Speaker 1: kind of body on body on body, and I remember going,

1129
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 1: this is this is interesting. I remember wake you up

1130
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 1: the next day going Okay, that was different. Cool, have

1131
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 1: that a go. And I've given it a go several

1132
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: times throughout my life, which Georgie knows about.

1133
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 2: And I'm glad she knows, because this would have been

1134
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:12,919
Speaker 2: a great time find out the first time in the book.

1135
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: Here party pashas you know, gay clubs, and just yeah,

1136
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:19,879
Speaker 1: have them live in my best life. I'm just having

1137
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 1: a good time. And then yeah, that's that's kind of

1138
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 1: like how I always looked at it. And then I

1139
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:28,240
Speaker 1: was always I felt a weird shame or read guilt

1140
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: about it, or like didn't know how to talk about it.

1141
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 1: And then I was like, what are you doing? Mate?

1142
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 1: Who cares? Anyone gives a shit, No one cares. Do

1143
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,399
Speaker 1: you like this person? Do you like? And I, yeah,

1144
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,439
Speaker 1: I honestly have never really I don't worry. I don't

1145
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: worry about it anymore. Yeah, but for a long time,

1146
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: I was like, oh what am I doing? What is

1147
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: this feeling? What is this guilt? And I think a

1148
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: lot of men feel that way, and they're like, I

1149
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: shouldn't feel this way about a bloke or about someone

1150
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: else that I care. You can also care about them.

1151
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 1: There's one thing I it sort of worked out is

1152
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 1: I was using sex to connect with people, yeah, and

1153
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 1: using sex to connect with men with women because I

1154
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:10,800
Speaker 1: thought that's how you connected.

1155
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 3: Vehicle to something that you could have got another way

1156
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 3: you didn't know.

1157
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 1: Instead of like actually just having conversation and having a chat,

1158
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 1: I used sexual acts or whatever. Like I was like, oh,

1159
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 1: you're an idiot. You could have just had a conversation

1160
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 1: and realized.

1161
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 3: Conversation Orgie conversation ORGI like, you know, same thing.

1162
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:30,800
Speaker 1: But I think a lot of people do that throughout

1163
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: their teens and total and twenties instead of like, I

1164
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 1: didn't have to get rid of that because you don't know.

1165
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: Your hormones are racing, like this is this is what

1166
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 1: you meant to do.

1167
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:39,800
Speaker 3: This is the funnest.

1168
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, but yeah, I think you sort of just not

1169
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 1: grow out of not grow out of it. That's not

1170
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 1: that's not what I'm saying. But I think you realize

1171
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 1: there are other ways to connect with people. And I

1172
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,320
Speaker 1: think I was definitely craving a male connection and it

1173
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,320
Speaker 1: was a friendship, I think, leaving high school, leaving mates behind, yeah,

1174
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: not really knowing my place had sort of left the band,

1175
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 1: and then I had a female manager, Like, yeah, my

1176
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 1: brother was off making babies and having kids, and like

1177
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 1: both of my brothers, I was like, I didn't really

1178
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 1: have my tribe, my circle of blokes. And since you know,

1179
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: since all that that happened over the over the years,

1180
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 1: last out of fifteen years, I've I've curated really good

1181
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: blokes around me as like a good yeah, understanding friendships

1182
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 1: and blokes that I now can go for a walk

1183
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 1: and talk about anything with. It's super important to have

1184
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: those those relationships, the ones that you cannot just gamble

1185
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 1: with and do stupid stuff, but also that you can

1186
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 1: have proper conversation with. So yeah, that was that's the

1187
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,320
Speaker 1: There was another question. What was the other that was more.

1188
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 2: Well the main Yeah, the final question was kind of

1189
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 2: linked in too. You've actually led to it really nicely

1190
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 2: was the idea that you've obviously had in yourself a

1191
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 2: lot of like different interpretations of what masculinity meant, and

1192
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 2: it's tied in with different parts of your identity at

1193
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 2: different times, even in your sex life, like trying to

1194
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 2: figure out what that means. But that over time now

1195
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 2: you see him a lot more comfortable with where you

1196
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 2: are and knowing that you can be manly, but you

1197
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 2: also don't need to like fit into all those things

1198
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:08,720
Speaker 2: we were talking about kind of why are the markers

1199
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 2: of a big penis, of sportiness, of tattoos, like why

1200
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:15,839
Speaker 2: are all those things still quite present as markers of masculinity.

1201
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: I think there can be if that's what your partner

1202
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:21,800
Speaker 1: is into or that's what you're into. The most important

1203
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 1: thing this is I talked to Georgia Grace. She's a

1204
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 1: sex therapist. She's also a podcaster. She is incredible. She

1205
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:33,280
Speaker 1: just talked about breaking down the gender stereotypes in the bedroom.

1206
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,719
Speaker 1: So like to say that you are the blokey bloke

1207
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 1: of the trade guy or whatever, and you get home,

1208
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:40,720
Speaker 1: maybe you want to be dominated by your partner.

1209
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 2: That's also if that chatter even how gays with the

1210
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 2: submissive and the dominant, like have issues with who takes

1211
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 2: on the masculine role based on traditional markers of masculinity.

1212
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, so so interesting.

1213
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 1: The idea is just have the conversation and maybe it's

1214
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,240
Speaker 1: different in the bedroom compared to what you're doing outside

1215
00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 1: the bedroom or wherever you're having sex. You could be kitchen,

1216
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 1: the bath, friend of the car. But it's okay to explore,

1217
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 1: to try new things. It doesn't mean that you're less masculine,

1218
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 1: or it just means that maybe you want to be

1219
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 1: dominated or you want to dominate, like even for the

1220
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 1: for for a woman, it's okay to want these things.

1221
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 1: I talk about the Fifty Shades of Great. There's a

1222
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 1: reason why that's the most popular book, right, it has

1223
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,319
Speaker 1: to be if all these women are reading this going

1224
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: I want to get strangled, I want to get choked out.

1225
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:28,280
Speaker 1: And then there's a whole group women are not conflicted.

1226
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 2: They're like, I'm a feminist, but like delish confusing.

1227
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 1: You can be both, Yeah, so why can't you? Why

1228
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 1: why can't it be a safe space? But yeah, also

1229
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:41,760
Speaker 1: blokes don't beat women, but also strangle inroom with consent

1230
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:45,479
Speaker 1: and safely and absolutely but don't expect it and don't

1231
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 1: expect blogs to work it out. Like, if there's one

1232
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 1: thing that I've worked out is we're not going to

1233
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 1: work it out.

1234
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 3: You're not going to figure it out all on your own.

1235
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:55,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're just not going to because we're having this

1236
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 1: chat with our mates. We come home, we've we've talked

1237
00:54:57,680 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: about nothing.

1238
00:54:58,239 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1239
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 2: Well, I think the book is just a really beautiful

1240
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:06,399
Speaker 2: adventure through the different themes and challenges, but also things

1241
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 2: that have really helped you in the landscape of masculinity

1242
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:13,360
Speaker 2: today as an Australian guy. And I think one of

1243
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 2: the really big things I like is how much help

1244
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 2: you actually give people in like things they can try,

1245
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 2: like when they are feeling a bit of shame. Is

1246
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 2: it that we need better role models? Is it that

1247
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 2: we need like it's interesting in the chapter that you

1248
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 2: had no male role models in your life. That's when

1249
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 2: you started looking for that connection in albeit in things

1250
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 2: that didn't in your sex life that didn't end up.

1251
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 3: Being where you needed it.

1252
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 2: But how much help you offer so if you wanted

1253
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 2: anyone to take something out of this book, who is

1254
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 2: reading this right now or a few key things like

1255
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 2: what I often think my goal in life is to

1256
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 2: leave a conversation for that person to feel better than

1257
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,399
Speaker 2: they did when I came into it. What's your goal

1258
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:52,879
Speaker 2: for the book when someone picks it up versus when

1259
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 2: they put it down? What are the main things you

1260
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:57,919
Speaker 2: want them to leave with men and women, but particularly

1261
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 2: men who are maybe a bit earlier on in their

1262
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 2: journey of masculinity and exploring that.

1263
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 1: Self reflect like, think about stuff, think about how you

1264
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,399
Speaker 1: feel about certain topics that think about how you feel

1265
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: about your partner, think about how you feel about yourself.

1266
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: Get to know yourself more. Make time for yourself, whether

1267
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,240
Speaker 1: that's journaling or and that sounds a bit hippie and stuff,

1268
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 1: but it does really work. Go for walks with your mate, Yeah,

1269
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:23,760
Speaker 1: go for drives with your partner. Like we're saying before,

1270
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 1: not having the director eye contact the whole way through

1271
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:31,360
Speaker 1: thing is really calming and easy to you find yourself

1272
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 1: having a better deeper conversation. Long walks like two hours

1273
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 1: minimum two hours, because once you get through all the

1274
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 1: small stuff, you've got nothing else to talk about.

1275
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 3: So you have to go into the deep stuff.

1276
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so that's a really good one. Self reflect

1277
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 1: Get aware, aware of your surroundings, the people around you

1278
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,560
Speaker 1: who you tribe. Who are the people that are bringing

1279
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 1: you most joy? Who are the people that probably not

1280
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 1: bringing you any joy as well?

1281
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 2: A good one, you know, Like, yeah, it's okay for

1282
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 2: your Like I feel like people into your life for

1283
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:02,399
Speaker 2: a reason a season in a lifetime, and it's okay

1284
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:04,800
Speaker 2: if they come in and then fade out in different

1285
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 2: chapters because you're a different person.

1286
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 1: There's a great This is a great thing, my cycle

1287
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:10,879
Speaker 1: said to me a couple of years ago. Just say

1288
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 1: that you are I mean, everyone at the moment is

1289
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 1: the center of their own universe, which is infuriating, but like, okay,

1290
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 1: let's go with that analogy though, But you are the

1291
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 1: Sun and you get to control Let's say your friends

1292
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 1: or your friendship groups or your family are the planets,

1293
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 1: but you get to control their orbit. So some of

1294
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 1: them are like some of your close friends around Venus,

1295
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: you know, they're around Mercury. They're really close to the

1296
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,600
Speaker 1: Sun and the Earth, you know, and they're constantly there

1297
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:38,440
Speaker 1: all the time. But sometimes they're like Pluto, so then

1298
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 1: they come around at birthdays and Christmas and then they're

1299
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: gone again. Like you get to control Yeah, how close

1300
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,400
Speaker 1: the cycle. Yeah, this is so weird.

1301
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:48,439
Speaker 2: That you just said that, because I always talk about

1302
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 2: this when people are like, how do you manage your energy?

1303
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 2: I'm like, there are just x amount of people in

1304
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 2: your life and they're all on different cycles. And the

1305
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 2: difficult thing sometimes is when someone's on a two week

1306
00:57:58,400 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 2: cycle and you need them to be on a six

1307
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 2: weeks so you just.

1308
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 3: Could push them out.

1309
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 2: It sounds terrible, but I'm like, that's how you project

1310
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 2: your energy. Never thought about it as planets though. I'm like,

1311
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 2: some people are like Alpha Centauri, like ten million miles.

1312
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 2: I am like pushing you out into another galaxy, and

1313
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 2: some people like, yeah, a beautiful way, more beautiful way

1314
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:17,520
Speaker 2: of saying it.

1315
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:19,480
Speaker 1: It's a very good Paul McNiff guy, check you about

1316
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 1: well music.

1317
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 3: Congratulations.

1318
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 2: I just want to like talk about every single chapter

1319
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,439
Speaker 2: and every single sentence because it's packed full of such

1320
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 2: important reflections. I really think for on a personal level,

1321
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 2: for individuals reading it, but also for people thinking about

1322
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 2: society as a whole. I think there there's a lot

1323
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 2: for men at the moment to deal with. There is

1324
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 2: so much flux and so much change, and it's a

1325
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 2: real like handbook.

1326
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 3: I think.

1327
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 1: I don't I've deliberately said, this is not a self

1328
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 1: help book.

1329
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 3: But I don't know handbook like a guide book.

1330
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 2: Thank you like a companion, shall we say a companion?

1331
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 1: If you will, Yeah, and you can read it. You

1332
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 1: don't have to read it from front to back. There

1333
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 1: are different chapters for different things, which I think is good.

1334
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 1: But also just remember we're getting there. Social change takes time.

1335
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 1: Any change in humans takes time. Just don't be so

1336
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 1: outraged going with if you need to talk about anything

1337
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 1: with your partner or with your friend. If you go

1338
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: in with an inquisitive mindset, we're going with curiosity, you

1339
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 1: can't lose. You just can't lose. If you're going with

1340
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 1: attacking with why avengeful? Why are you doing this? Like,

1341
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:26,120
Speaker 1: if you're going with a curious, inquisitive mindset, you cannot

1342
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:27,480
Speaker 1: go wrong. Totally.

1343
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 3: Well, thank you so much.

1344
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 2: I have one question to finish that with, which I

1345
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 2: bookend every episode with. Because you know I love quotes

1346
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 2: and I speak exclusively in quote. What's your favorite quote?

1347
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:41,320
Speaker 1: Oh, look, there's a favorite quote. Oh that's really tough, Okay,

1348
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:44,840
Speaker 1: I will paraphrase. It's about it's an Ira Glass quote

1349
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: that I like. Love Iraglass.

1350
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:48,600
Speaker 3: I love that you listen to this American life.

1351
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 1: Change my life. So he talks about people that are

1352
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 1: creative have this taste, and they get into the pursuit

1353
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:59,440
Speaker 1: of creative things because their taste is so good. They

1354
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 1: love these creative, awesome things that they see, whether it's

1355
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 1: film and movies or TV or whatever it is. But

1356
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,960
Speaker 1: in the very beginning, your actual skill level is crap,

1357
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 1: but your taste is really good. But your actual ability

1358
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 1: to do the thing, whether it's guitar playing or singing

1359
01:00:14,280 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 1: or podcasting, what it is, it's not good. But in

1360
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 1: order to get to there, to where your taste is,

1361
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 1: you've got to do the work. It's the only way.

1362
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 1: And a lot of people forget that and they just

1363
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 1: drop off, so they become critics or they become disenfranchised

1364
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 1: with art itself and they feel like they're not not happy.

1365
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing Heat. The whole idea of it is bridge

1366
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 1: the gap, do the work so that your ability becomes

1367
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:42,080
Speaker 1: as good as your taste.

1368
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 2: Oh I love that so much, Millsy, thank you so much.

1369
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 2: Where can we get our copies of putting on a show?

1370
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 3: Everyone?

1371
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:51,200
Speaker 1: I want to say, at all your favorite bookstores. It'll

1372
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 1: be out.

1373
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 2: Do you even know where it's going to be out

1374
01:00:57,000 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 2: somewhere but where books live.

1375
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 1: A lot of people have been stimmy pictures of them

1376
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:04,760
Speaker 1: buying it on Amazon, so that's been pretty cute. So

1377
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 1: Amazon and bookstores and Gimbite online. And also there's an

1378
01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 1: audiobook coming next to well, I know I'd like to

1379
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:14,439
Speaker 1: read it. Everyone else's quotes, I'm like, oh, nowhere near

1380
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:15,840
Speaker 1: as good as how they said it.

1381
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 2: I was going to say, reading some of your own,

1382
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 2: like really vulnerable bits would have been turtle.

1383
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:20,960
Speaker 3: Was it just act?

1384
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 1: You can hear the frog in the throat for sure? Ye? Amazing.

1385
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 2: There's some amazing photos in here as well, the Paris

1386
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 2: Hilton era, which I on purpose didn't mention because I

1387
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:30,480
Speaker 2: feel like every article about you ever mentioned it but.

1388
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 1: Had had to be done in the chapter. But to

1389
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 1: be done, there's far more compelling and interesting stories I

1390
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 1: think in the book than that.

1391
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 3: Absolutely, thank you so much.

1392
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:39,520
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.

1393
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 2: Isn't Rob just the loveliest if it didn't come across

1394
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:46,760
Speaker 2: and I didn't rave about it enough. His new book

1395
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 2: is truly such a valuable contribution to the conversation about

1396
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 2: masculinity and how we need to redefine some of our

1397
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:55,360
Speaker 2: outdated definitions of the concept, and I will pop a

1398
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 2: link in the show notes so you can grab a

1399
01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:58,080
Speaker 2: copy for yourselves.

1400
01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 3: As always, please him.

1401
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:03,760
Speaker 2: Some good old yighborhood love by sharing the episode tagging

1402
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 2: at Rob millsy Mills, and Us so we can show

1403
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 2: our gratitude to him and also keep growing the neighborhood

1404
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 2: as far and wide as possible. I hope you are

1405
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 2: all having an amazing week and are seizing your yay