WEBVTT - Elizabeth Day Knows How To Fail 0:00:13.415 --> 0:00:16.165 For Mamma Mia, I'm Mia Friedman. And you're listening to 0:00:16.174 --> 0:00:20.984 No Filter. Three weeks before Elizabeth Day's 39th birthday, she 0:00:20.995 --> 0:00:24.245 had a really bad romantic breakup. It had been her 0:00:24.255 --> 0:00:28.204 first long-term relationship after her divorce and she felt like 0:00:28.214 --> 0:00:31.495 a total failure when it ended. She was looking down 0:00:31.505 --> 0:00:34.755 the barrel of turning 40 as a single woman without 0:00:34.765 --> 0:00:38.724 the Children. She so desperately wanted. This was not how 0:00:38.734 --> 0:00:40.544 she thought her life was gonna be 0:00:41.354 --> 0:00:44.124 a couple of years earlier. She'd already blown things up 0:00:44.135 --> 0:00:46.755 a little bit by quitting her job as a journalist 0:00:46.764 --> 0:00:49.845 at the observer newspaper and kind of randomly she decided 0:00:49.854 --> 0:00:53.075 to start a podcast called How To Fail, where she 0:00:53.084 --> 0:00:57.964 interviewed celebrities about their experiences of failure to reassure herself 0:00:57.975 --> 0:01:00.304 and everyone about our own failures. 0:01:00.604 --> 0:01:04.054 But this interview isn't about failure, even though Elizabeth's podcast 0:01:04.065 --> 0:01:08.295 has become iconic. Today, we're talking about friendship and the 0:01:08.304 --> 0:01:11.494 fact that Elizabeth is addicted to it, she calls herself 0:01:11.505 --> 0:01:14.585 a friend aholic. She's written a book about it. And 0:01:14.594 --> 0:01:16.844 while that may sound like a non problem, you can 0:01:16.854 --> 0:01:19.655 have too many friends. It very much is a problem 0:01:19.945 --> 0:01:23.524 and you're about to hear why my friendships underpin every 0:01:23.534 --> 0:01:25.634 aspect of my life. I don't think I could be 0:01:25.644 --> 0:01:29.295 married or be a mother or even do my job 0:01:29.435 --> 0:01:30.615 without my friends. 0:01:31.024 --> 0:01:34.424 But friendship comes with challenges. And Elizabeth points out that 0:01:34.435 --> 0:01:38.045 we have a whole vocabulary to explain and understand the 0:01:38.055 --> 0:01:41.695 ups and downs of romantic relationships. But friendships can also 0:01:41.704 --> 0:01:46.805 be really, really complicated, sometimes even more complicated than romantic relationships, 0:01:46.844 --> 0:01:51.015 especially when they end abruptly or go toxic or become 0:01:51.024 --> 0:01:55.024 one sided or just fade. There's nothing more draining than 0:01:55.034 --> 0:01:58.034 clinging to a friendship with someone. Just because 20 years earlier, 0:01:58.045 --> 0:02:00.435 you worked together or went to school together. 0:02:01.024 --> 0:02:04.435 Elizabeth said there's a big difference between being good at 0:02:04.445 --> 0:02:08.884 friendship and being a good friend. And in 2020 she 0:02:08.894 --> 0:02:11.644 realized she had a big problem if you stick around. 0:02:11.655 --> 0:02:14.704 You'll also hear my conversation with Elizabeth about her hugely 0:02:14.714 --> 0:02:18.095 successful podcast. How to fail and why a recent essay 0:02:18.104 --> 0:02:21.325 that she wrote about fertility privilege sent me into a 0:02:21.334 --> 0:02:22.425 rage spiral. 0:02:23.134 --> 0:02:26.985 Enjoy this conversation with Elizabeth Day. I did. 0:02:33.075 --> 0:02:35.364 This story starts with the moment you realized you were 0:02:35.375 --> 0:02:38.625 a friendship addict. Can you tell me a bit about that? 0:02:38.895 --> 0:02:42.425 Yes, that was the starting point, not only for the book, 0:02:42.435 --> 0:02:48.125 but for my own journey of psychological self discovery. And 0:02:48.134 --> 0:02:52.364 I think it came about because of the lockdown. So 0:02:53.125 --> 0:02:58.185 as happened to almost everyone around the world, when the 0:02:58.194 --> 0:03:03.095 pandemic hit our diaries emptied overnight. And when that happened 0:03:03.104 --> 0:03:06.974 to me, I was confronted by the truth of how 0:03:06.985 --> 0:03:09.634 I've been spending my time and I realized that I'd 0:03:09.955 --> 0:03:13.214 spent all of my time trying to meet the demands 0:03:13.224 --> 0:03:16.935 of people who I often liked but didn't know that. Well, 0:03:16.944 --> 0:03:19.845 they were people that I'd fallen into a kind of 0:03:19.854 --> 0:03:23.754 acquaintanceship with who I might have met sitting next to 0:03:23.765 --> 0:03:27.285 at a work function who I might have exchanged a 0:03:27.295 --> 0:03:31.164 few words with it, yoga class. And suddenly I found 0:03:31.175 --> 0:03:35.494 myself in this dynamic where for whatever reason I felt 0:03:35.504 --> 0:03:38.944 that we should be friends capital f friends. 0:03:39.265 --> 0:03:42.054 And what that meant was that I was trying to 0:03:42.065 --> 0:03:46.334 meet so many other demands that I wasn't spending enough 0:03:46.345 --> 0:03:51.084 time with the people who were the most nourishing to me. Actually, 0:03:51.095 --> 0:03:53.675 those people who are in my inner circle who I 0:03:53.685 --> 0:03:56.185 am incredibly close to, who have known me for many 0:03:56.194 --> 0:04:00.015 years and who would never place obligations on my time 0:04:00.024 --> 0:04:03.045 because they know how quote unquote busy I am. And 0:04:03.054 --> 0:04:06.035 I thought, well, there's something out of sorts there and 0:04:06.045 --> 0:04:08.854 it felt like the equilibrium needed to be addressed. 0:04:09.155 --> 0:04:12.785 And that was the, the beginning of thinking about friendship 0:04:12.795 --> 0:04:15.325 and what it meant to me. And what I realized 0:04:15.334 --> 0:04:18.774 was that I was a friend aholic. It's a term 0:04:18.785 --> 0:04:22.004 that I have coined in order to denote exactly as 0:04:22.015 --> 0:04:26.055 you say, an addiction to friendship, almost a codependent relationship 0:04:26.064 --> 0:04:26.844 with friendship. 0:04:27.224 --> 0:04:29.934 And what I mean by that is that at some 0:04:29.944 --> 0:04:32.914 point in my life, it became more important for me 0:04:32.925 --> 0:04:36.235 to be surrounded by people, to have a lot of 0:04:36.245 --> 0:04:40.485 what I would term friends rather than to spend the 0:04:40.495 --> 0:04:43.215 appropriate amount of time building up my own sense of 0:04:43.224 --> 0:04:47.275 self worth or spending the appropriate amount of time focusing 0:04:47.284 --> 0:04:49.545 my energies and my love on a core group of 0:04:49.555 --> 0:04:52.335 people who were always going to have my back. 0:04:52.604 --> 0:04:56.034 And for me, the roots of that came from secondary school. 0:04:56.045 --> 0:04:58.805 When I grew up in Northern Ireland, I didn't have 0:04:58.814 --> 0:05:02.305 a great time at secondary school in Belfast. I was bullied. 0:05:02.314 --> 0:05:06.745 I felt very alone, isolated, scared. And when I changed schools, 0:05:06.754 --> 0:05:09.675 it became the most important thing in my head 0:05:09.865 --> 0:05:12.134 to make as many friends as possible. It didn't matter 0:05:12.145 --> 0:05:15.094 who they were. It, I was making no judgment call. 0:05:15.104 --> 0:05:19.434 I just needed to feel that I was accepted by 0:05:19.444 --> 0:05:23.094 a tribe of people bigger than myself. I maintained that 0:05:23.104 --> 0:05:26.295 mindset of thinking. The most important thing is numbers because 0:05:26.305 --> 0:05:28.134 I can't be left on my own. 0:05:28.564 --> 0:05:32.134 And actually it became unsustainable. And I'm sure many of 0:05:32.145 --> 0:05:35.534 your listeners will relate to this because when we try 0:05:35.545 --> 0:05:38.564 and spread ourselves so thinly so that we're trying to 0:05:38.575 --> 0:05:43.395 meet everyone's demands in our busy, personal and professional lives. Actually, 0:05:43.404 --> 0:05:46.495 what that means is that you're not doing yourself a 0:05:46.504 --> 0:05:49.154 service and you're not doing those other people a service 0:05:49.164 --> 0:05:52.175 because you're not giving them your best self. Every time, 0:05:52.184 --> 0:05:53.995 you're just too exhausted 0:05:54.265 --> 0:05:56.515 to have the energy to turn up as your full 0:05:56.525 --> 0:05:59.974 self in every single scenario. So that is a brief 0:05:59.985 --> 0:06:01.985 summary of what I believe a friend of holi 0:06:01.995 --> 0:06:06.215 is. You talk about Dunbar's number and there are two 0:06:06.224 --> 0:06:09.184 numbers that I want you to explain. One is five 0:06:09.194 --> 0:06:11.034 and one is 100 and 50. 0:06:11.314 --> 0:06:14.055 Yes. I'm so glad you asked me about Robin Dunbar 0:06:14.064 --> 0:06:16.455 because I'm creepily obsessed with him. 0:06:17.115 --> 0:06:21.245 He is, he's like the Og of Friendship Studies. He 0:06:21.254 --> 0:06:24.555 is a professor of Evolutionary Psychology at Oxford University and 0:06:24.564 --> 0:06:27.395 I've never actually met him. We've had some close run 0:06:27.404 --> 0:06:30.004 ins where we've been at similar events, but for whatever reason, 0:06:30.015 --> 0:06:33.974 the scheduling has never worked. And he famously coined what 0:06:33.985 --> 0:06:36.104 is now known as Dumb Ball's number quite a few 0:06:36.115 --> 0:06:38.525 years ago. And that's the 150 figure. 0:06:38.985 --> 0:06:42.895 And that is the number of connections that Dunbar believes 0:06:42.904 --> 0:06:46.694 the human brain can cope with where you will know 0:06:46.705 --> 0:06:50.175 a salient fact about that individual's life where you will 0:06:50.184 --> 0:06:52.675 be able to place them immediately, you know, their name, 0:06:52.684 --> 0:06:56.925 you know, something about their context. 100 and 50 is 0:06:56.934 --> 0:06:59.314 the number of people you would invite to a big 0:06:59.325 --> 0:07:00.575 wedding for instance. 0:07:00.805 --> 0:07:03.854 And it's a number that is replicated again and again 0:07:03.865 --> 0:07:07.194 through history. So it's the average size, for instance, of 0:07:07.205 --> 0:07:11.384 a medieval village. It's the average size of a Christmas 0:07:11.395 --> 0:07:13.604 card list in the days when we all still sent 0:07:13.955 --> 0:07:18.724 Christmas cards on pieces of paper. And that's Dunbar's number. 0:07:18.735 --> 0:07:21.765 And that's an interesting number because I think what I 0:07:21.775 --> 0:07:23.914 was doing when I was at the extremes of my, 0:07:24.015 --> 0:07:27.444 my friendship addiction was I kept trying to accumulate more 0:07:27.455 --> 0:07:29.874 and more people. And I have to say when I 0:07:29.884 --> 0:07:33.104 say that it sounds rather clinical and it wasn't, these 0:07:33.115 --> 0:07:35.585 are all people that I liked and that I felt 0:07:35.594 --> 0:07:38.604 some sort of kindred connection with, but it was ultimately 0:07:38.615 --> 0:07:42.004 unsustainable because Dunbar's number says in order to have a 0:07:42.015 --> 0:07:45.104 meaningful connection and context with someone, the human brain can 0:07:45.115 --> 0:07:47.164 only really go up to 100 and 50. 0:07:47.485 --> 0:07:51.745 Now, a few years after that, Dunbar evolved this theory 0:07:51.754 --> 0:07:55.215 into Dunbar's layers, which is the idea that the 100 0:07:55.224 --> 0:07:57.555 and 50 numbers still stands. But within that there are 0:07:57.564 --> 0:07:59.215 different layers of friendship 0:07:59.555 --> 0:08:02.075 and there are different layers of relationship that will mean 0:08:02.085 --> 0:08:06.365 something different and that will be able to meet different needs. 0:08:06.675 --> 0:08:10.025 And the innermost layer he says goes up to five 0:08:10.034 --> 0:08:14.694 key relationships. So that could be five really meaningful friendships. 0:08:14.705 --> 0:08:16.985 They are the ones that you will call at 4 a.m. 0:08:16.995 --> 0:08:20.015 when something goes wrong, they are the ones who will 0:08:20.025 --> 0:08:21.965 have your back, who think the best of you who 0:08:21.974 --> 0:08:24.745 you can pick up with instantly where you left off, 0:08:24.754 --> 0:08:26.645 even if you haven't seen each other for a while, 0:08:26.694 --> 0:08:28.585 they are your closest friends 0:08:28.955 --> 0:08:32.604 and they're the ones that need nurturing and they're the 0:08:32.615 --> 0:08:35.624 ones that need. The bulk of your time and time 0:08:35.634 --> 0:08:37.715 is very important here because there's been lots of other 0:08:37.724 --> 0:08:41.544 research done that shows it takes 200 hours at least 0:08:41.554 --> 0:08:43.575 to know someone to be able to call them a friend. 0:08:43.984 --> 0:08:46.364 And Dunbar says that if you 0:08:46.924 --> 0:08:50.804 have a meaningful romantic relationship, if you get married, if 0:08:50.814 --> 0:08:54.765 you have kids, that will generally cost you two of 0:08:54.775 --> 0:08:56.924 those key five relationships. 0:08:56.934 --> 0:08:58.734 So you'll only have three left. 0:08:58.744 --> 0:09:01.835 Yes, but you have outer layers. So in the second layer, 0:09:01.845 --> 0:09:05.655 it will go up to 10 friendships and they're people who, 0:09:05.734 --> 0:09:08.475 you know, you might invite for dinner once every three months, 0:09:08.484 --> 0:09:11.194 but you're not necessarily speaking to them every single day. 0:09:11.484 --> 0:09:13.915 And that was a real light bulb moment for me 0:09:13.924 --> 0:09:18.095 because I realized that I'd been trying so hard to 0:09:18.105 --> 0:09:21.194 be the quote unquote, best, most perfect friend to everyone 0:09:21.205 --> 0:09:25.205 in my life. But I misunderstood the fundamental nature of friendship, 0:09:25.215 --> 0:09:29.025 which is that there are different kinds and 0:09:29.210 --> 0:09:32.390 actually by spending too much of my time trying to 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:36.619 meet the needs of those outer layers in the same way. 0:09:36.629 --> 0:09:38.299 And then to the same level as I was trying 0:09:38.309 --> 0:09:40.590 to meet the needs of the inner layer, I was 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.520 doing a disservice to the people who were closest to me. 0:09:43.530 --> 0:09:46.200 So those are two Dunbar numbers that really help my 0:09:46.210 --> 0:09:46.879 own thinking. 0:09:47.665 --> 0:09:50.155 You talk about that sort of difference, almost the difference 0:09:50.165 --> 0:09:53.335 between the two numbers as the difference between being good 0:09:53.345 --> 0:09:56.835 at friendship where you might have dozens of friends and 0:09:56.845 --> 0:09:59.765 being a good friend, which Dunbar says you can only 0:09:59.775 --> 0:10:02.294 really do with five people. 0:10:02.715 --> 0:10:05.124 And in terms of being a good friend, you know, 0:10:05.134 --> 0:10:07.665 the way the book works and you interview different friends 0:10:07.674 --> 0:10:09.525 who have different roles in your life and you speak 0:10:09.535 --> 0:10:13.605 to one friend who's an older friend called Joan and 0:10:13.614 --> 0:10:18.725 she talks about the most important thing in friendship is reciprocity. 0:10:18.734 --> 0:10:23.754 Like maybe not every day it's completely equal. But, you know, 0:10:23.765 --> 0:10:26.655 sometimes someone needs to lean in or some person isn't 0:10:26.665 --> 0:10:28.934 able to give as much. But when you've got that 0:10:28.944 --> 0:10:30.145 many friends, 0:10:30.395 --> 0:10:33.205 is it that they all want to be your friend, 0:10:33.215 --> 0:10:37.515 particularly since you've become successful and high profile and famous 0:10:37.525 --> 0:10:41.614 in the last few years. Have you found that you 0:10:41.624 --> 0:10:44.194 haven't evolved from thinking? Oh, if this person wants to 0:10:44.205 --> 0:10:46.845 be my friend, I have to be their friend too 0:10:46.855 --> 0:10:48.355 because I got chosen 0:10:48.444 --> 0:10:51.335 what a great question. So many things to unpack that 0:10:51.345 --> 0:10:54.205 first of all, you're so right to identify the difference 0:10:54.215 --> 0:10:57.434 between being a good friend and good at friendship. My 0:10:57.444 --> 0:10:58.585 best friend Emma 0:10:59.075 --> 0:11:03.715 describes it as there being a fundamental difference between being 0:11:03.725 --> 0:11:08.205 friendly to someone and actively wanting to pursue a friendship 0:11:08.215 --> 0:11:10.285 because part of the reason I wrote friend aholic is 0:11:10.294 --> 0:11:14.325 because friendship is one of the most meaningful, sustaining loves 0:11:14.335 --> 0:11:18.205 of my life. It has seen me through so much. 0:11:18.395 --> 0:11:21.725 I am so grateful to it and to my friends 0:11:21.734 --> 0:11:24.064 and I wanted there to be a language to express 0:11:24.075 --> 0:11:26.205 how much it meant to me. But 0:11:26.715 --> 0:11:28.804 you have to give it your time and attention for 0:11:28.814 --> 0:11:34.345 that to be a reciprocal friendship. It absolutely requires a 0:11:34.355 --> 0:11:38.244 great deal of importance in your life. You need to 0:11:38.254 --> 0:11:40.605 create space for it. And so there has to be 0:11:40.614 --> 0:11:42.965 a difference between being friendly to someone in yoga class 0:11:42.975 --> 0:11:48.684 and actively pursuing such a meaningful friendship. And I think 0:11:48.694 --> 0:11:52.085 you have identified definitely an issue for me. 0:11:52.494 --> 0:11:55.004 There's a number of things going on for me, which 0:11:55.015 --> 0:11:58.194 I one of them is I for whatever reason, have 0:11:58.205 --> 0:12:01.655 a fundamental lack of self esteem. That is part of 0:12:01.665 --> 0:12:03.595 my life's work is to sort of work out why 0:12:03.605 --> 0:12:05.884 that is. And I think if I can generalize a 0:12:05.895 --> 0:12:08.835 bit of a gender, a lot of women possibly feel 0:12:08.845 --> 0:12:12.314 the same because if like I did, you grew up 0:12:12.325 --> 0:12:12.965 in the eighties and nine 0:12:13.061 --> 0:12:16.361 nineties, we were conditioned in many ways to try and 0:12:16.371 --> 0:12:18.751 think about what other people wanted at the cost of 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:22.260 what our own needs and desires were. And it became 0:12:22.270 --> 0:12:25.631 very difficult to understand, to name those needs and desires. 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.640 And so I think I still am in a bit 0:12:28.650 --> 0:12:31.650 of that head space and I have to really check 0:12:31.660 --> 0:12:33.421 myself every single day 0:12:33.627 --> 0:12:36.397 that because there's part of me when I make a 0:12:36.406 --> 0:12:39.897 connection with someone you're right. I feel the glow of that. 0:12:39.906 --> 0:12:42.656 I feel approved of. Yeah. Like I've 0:12:42.666 --> 0:12:43.577 been chosen. Yeah, 0:12:43.587 --> 0:12:48.327 exactly. And that really speaks, that really feeds that sort 0:12:48.337 --> 0:12:51.986 of people pleasing. I want to be nice and liked 0:12:51.996 --> 0:12:56.916 part of my conditioning. And also I love connection. I 0:12:56.926 --> 0:12:59.356 should say that that's a wholly positive thing in my life. 0:12:59.366 --> 0:13:02.296 I love talking to people and asking them questions and 0:13:02.306 --> 0:13:03.356 getting to know them. 0:13:03.944 --> 0:13:07.734 But you're right that I've had to become more aware 0:13:07.744 --> 0:13:11.285 of where that can lead to. Because friendship as a 0:13:11.294 --> 0:13:15.054 term is so broad, encompasses so much that it also 0:13:15.064 --> 0:13:18.374 means it's diffuse and the person that I'm having a 0:13:18.384 --> 0:13:22.285 connection with might have vastly different expectations of what friendship 0:13:22.294 --> 0:13:25.535 is and what I'm able to offer. So I think 0:13:25.544 --> 0:13:27.884 I've got a lot more honest with myself about the 0:13:27.895 --> 0:13:30.194 capacity I have to pursue any new 0:13:30.290 --> 0:13:33.689 friendship and hopefully a lot more honest with the other person. 0:13:33.700 --> 0:13:36.419 And it doesn't have to be as clinical as saying, 0:13:36.429 --> 0:13:38.429 by the way, I only have two hours a week 0:13:38.439 --> 0:13:41.770 to give to this. It can literally just be setting 0:13:41.780 --> 0:13:46.309 nonverbal boundaries where you're not instantly going to reply to 0:13:46.319 --> 0:13:48.030 a text that they send you, you might leave it 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:52.739 24 hours that in itself communicates something that is clear 0:13:52.749 --> 0:13:55.460 and worth communicating at the outset of any sort of 0:13:55.470 --> 0:13:56.619 platonic relationship. 0:13:56.975 --> 0:13:59.855 And that's very kind of you to say that I 0:13:59.984 --> 0:14:04.025 have grown in profile over the last few years, I 0:14:04.575 --> 0:14:08.355 have struggled claiming that because I don't want to sound 0:14:08.364 --> 0:14:11.955 like an egomaniac. No, you're famous now. I don't know 0:14:11.965 --> 0:14:14.804 if I am. Well, thank you for saying that. I, 0:14:14.814 --> 0:14:17.705 I don't, why do I struggle with it so much 0:14:17.715 --> 0:14:21.665 I think because it feels like fame is for other people. 0:14:21.674 --> 0:14:26.335 Famous for Cate Blanchett Fame. Fame is also something that 0:14:26.994 --> 0:14:29.754 in my head is quite two dimensional. So you don't 0:14:29.765 --> 0:14:32.325 really know the person, you have an image of them. 0:14:32.504 --> 0:14:35.215 Whereas I feel that if anyone has ever engaged in 0:14:35.225 --> 0:14:37.864 my work, listened to a podcast, read a book, you 0:14:37.874 --> 0:14:40.744 do actually know me. That's the 0:14:40.754 --> 0:14:44.355 problem, don't you think? Because yeah, with the paras social relationship, 0:14:44.364 --> 0:14:45.395 like I don't think I'm free 0:14:45.489 --> 0:14:47.980 with Sarah Jessica Parker even though I've watched hundreds of 0:14:47.989 --> 0:14:51.350 hours of her on television. But with you, I feel 0:14:51.359 --> 0:14:53.009 like instantly I can talk to you and that I 0:14:53.020 --> 0:14:56.540 know you in a different way because I've listened to 0:14:56.549 --> 0:15:00.919 your podcast and because of that paras social relationship because 0:15:00.929 --> 0:15:03.980 podcasting in particular is a really intimate medium. 0:15:04.455 --> 0:15:07.325 So that must be something to adjust to because people 0:15:07.335 --> 0:15:10.044 not only would like to be friends with you, but 0:15:10.054 --> 0:15:10.405 they think 0:15:10.415 --> 0:15:13.225 they already are. Yeah, it is something to adjust to, 0:15:13.234 --> 0:15:16.424 particularly for someone who is addicted to that adrenaline buzz 0:15:16.434 --> 0:15:17.624 of friendship. 0:15:18.105 --> 0:15:21.754 I think where I'm at with it is that I 0:15:21.765 --> 0:15:26.395 now understand so much more the difference between a connection 0:15:26.405 --> 0:15:29.535 that I make at a book signing or if someone 0:15:29.544 --> 0:15:32.924 sends me a really beautiful Instagram DM or I get 0:15:32.934 --> 0:15:34.814 forwarded an email because 0:15:35.674 --> 0:15:38.355 something I've written about fertility has really helped someone through 0:15:38.364 --> 0:15:41.145 their own journey. I now understand that that is a 0:15:41.155 --> 0:15:44.605 beautiful gift in and of its own right? And although 0:15:44.614 --> 0:15:47.145 I will try my best to reply to it, it 0:15:47.155 --> 0:15:49.965 doesn't have to be an ongoing relationship. 0:15:50.355 --> 0:15:54.725 And I think increasingly because we're increasingly versed in social media, 0:15:54.734 --> 0:15:57.054 I'm very lucky that a lot of my listeners and 0:15:57.064 --> 0:16:01.544 readers and followers are understanding of that and I'm very 0:16:01.554 --> 0:16:04.134 upfront about it and say, I'm really sorry, I can't 0:16:04.145 --> 0:16:06.244 reply to everything, but I do read them and it 0:16:06.254 --> 0:16:09.335 means so much to me and I ensure I think 0:16:09.345 --> 0:16:11.335 there are a few things worse in this world than 0:16:11.345 --> 0:16:14.444 feeling unseen or ignored. And 0:16:14.984 --> 0:16:17.475 part of my role I believe is to try and 0:16:17.484 --> 0:16:20.684 make people feel seen. But that doesn't have to be 0:16:20.694 --> 0:16:22.794 a full blown friendship every single time. 0:16:23.064 --> 0:16:25.715 And interestingly, if I can name drop for a second 0:16:25.725 --> 0:16:28.734 because she's a total hero of mine. And I met 0:16:28.744 --> 0:16:30.515 her recently and I sat next to her at dinner, 0:16:30.525 --> 0:16:34.895 Elizabeth Gilbert, who I absolutely love and adore. And we, 0:16:34.905 --> 0:16:38.634 we were talking about this because can you imagine like 0:16:38.645 --> 0:16:41.595 the amount of people including me, the amount of people 0:16:41.605 --> 0:16:45.355 she has wanting her not only to be their life guru, 0:16:45.364 --> 0:16:46.335 but their best friend 0:16:46.915 --> 0:16:49.814 and she said she'd been taught this thing by a 0:16:49.825 --> 0:16:51.325 spiritual teacher 0:16:51.564 --> 0:16:57.835 about how, when you're having this sort of connected beautiful conversation, 0:16:57.845 --> 0:17:02.915 this two way exchange of affection and ideas, how she 0:17:02.924 --> 0:17:05.864 now says this thing in her head. She says, I 0:17:05.874 --> 0:17:08.855 appreciate your magic, but I don't need to take it on. 0:17:09.194 --> 0:17:12.134 I love that. I said to her as she told 0:17:12.145 --> 0:17:13.694 me that I was like, are you doing it right now? 0:17:13.705 --> 0:17:18.164 She was like, yes, yes. And I, I've started doing 0:17:18.174 --> 0:17:19.814 that because actually 0:17:20.293 --> 0:17:23.403 I think just telling yourself that in your head is 0:17:23.413 --> 0:17:26.363 really helpful and it's not just for people who have 0:17:26.373 --> 0:17:31.403 a profile, it's for anyone who struggles with boundaries. If you, 0:17:31.413 --> 0:17:34.143 when you find yourself in a situation where you're at 0:17:34.153 --> 0:17:36.783 risk of blurring a boundary and you're at risk of 0:17:36.793 --> 0:17:40.633 saying yes to something you don't necessarily feel wholeheartedly is 0:17:40.643 --> 0:17:43.363 a yes. If you just want to say in your head, 0:17:43.814 --> 0:17:47.105 I appreciate what you're offering, but I can't take it 0:17:47.115 --> 0:17:49.804 on right now. I respect it, but it's not part 0:17:49.814 --> 0:17:53.885 of me. I find that's really helpful because it means 0:17:53.894 --> 0:17:57.975 that I remind myself not to overpromise and under deliver. 0:17:58.024 --> 0:18:00.944 Does it remind you a little bit of flirting? Like 0:18:01.125 --> 0:18:02.924 I know that you're married and 0:18:03.014 --> 0:18:06.164 I am also, but there's a sort of a, like 0:18:06.585 --> 0:18:09.965 a that comes from the chemistry of a new friendship, 0:18:09.975 --> 0:18:12.715 like the energy of that that can be really addictive 0:18:12.725 --> 0:18:16.934 because obviously you don't have that romantic flirtation with that person. 0:18:17.245 --> 0:18:20.115 But I find that I often fall into this a lot. Like, 0:18:20.125 --> 0:18:22.125 if I've got chemistry with someone 0:18:22.365 --> 0:18:25.745 and I'm like, oh, we're gonna be great friends and 0:18:25.755 --> 0:18:29.394 then you just go, oh, no, I, I actually don't 0:18:29.404 --> 0:18:30.485 have time. 0:18:30.495 --> 0:18:34.774 Yes. I think there are certain similarities but where it 0:18:34.784 --> 0:18:41.534 differs for me is that flirting is ultimately a game play. 0:18:42.235 --> 0:18:46.965 And as someone who found herself a devil c single 0:18:46.975 --> 0:18:48.575 in her late thirties and had to do a lot 0:18:48.585 --> 0:18:51.965 of online dating and a lot of banter in the 0:18:51.975 --> 0:18:56.505 old messaging apps. I got so sick of it because 0:18:56.514 --> 0:18:59.764 it felt like there was a dynamic at play always 0:18:59.774 --> 0:19:03.965 that was about one party withholding and the other party 0:19:04.050 --> 0:19:07.960 wanting more. And so I think that sometimes is what 0:19:07.970 --> 0:19:11.901 flirting involves when there's a romantic dynamic at play. Whereas 0:19:11.911 --> 0:19:16.631 with a platonic connection, it is literally that feeling of, 0:19:17.011 --> 0:19:19.501 I would love to know what you think about the 0:19:19.511 --> 0:19:22.810 world and in hearing what you think about the world 0:19:22.820 --> 0:19:25.781 increase my understanding of who we are. And 0:19:25.866 --> 0:19:30.736 I love that. I have innate curiosity. Some might call 0:19:30.746 --> 0:19:34.797 it rabid nosiness. II. I really want to know, you know, 0:19:34.807 --> 0:19:37.596 with you now, I just want to know everything about 0:19:37.606 --> 0:19:40.287 your son and the fact that you're a grandmother and 0:19:40.297 --> 0:19:42.356 that your daughter-in-law gave you mag. But I want to 0:19:42.366 --> 0:19:44.287 know where you grew up. And I don't think there's 0:19:44.297 --> 0:19:47.616 anything wrong with that at all. I think it's beautiful 0:19:47.865 --> 0:19:51.505 and I love it when I find someone who is 0:19:51.514 --> 0:19:54.955 equally as engaged in that idea. And it's partly why 0:19:54.965 --> 0:19:58.715 I love reality TV. Some of because it teaches me 0:19:58.725 --> 0:20:00.694 more about how humans interact. 0:20:01.345 --> 0:20:05.674 I think it's just that I've got a lot clearer 0:20:05.855 --> 0:20:06.894 about 0:20:07.865 --> 0:20:12.325 where that ends and where a true friendship starts. And 0:20:12.335 --> 0:20:15.694 the ones that now at the age of 44 I'm 0:20:15.705 --> 0:20:18.635 willing to invest precious time in 0:20:19.135 --> 0:20:21.784 your best friend is Emma. She's a therapist and you 0:20:21.794 --> 0:20:24.755 guys have a podcast together called Best Friend Therapy, which 0:20:24.764 --> 0:20:27.235 I also love. And I wanted to ask you about 0:20:27.245 --> 0:20:30.365 being best friends with a therapist 0:20:30.705 --> 0:20:32.965 because the way you guys speak about each other is 0:20:32.975 --> 0:20:35.475 so beautiful. You know, that she says that she doesn't 0:20:35.485 --> 0:20:37.064 think of you as a friend. She thinks of you 0:20:37.075 --> 0:20:41.054 as a life partner even though you both have romantic 0:20:41.064 --> 0:20:44.024 life partners. But she's kind of like you're the person 0:20:44.034 --> 0:20:46.725 that she does life alongside, which, uh, a lot of 0:20:46.735 --> 0:20:49.314 women will hear that and think, oh, I would love 0:20:49.325 --> 0:20:53.495 that because not everybody does have that kind of friend. 0:20:53.835 --> 0:20:55.965 But I want to ask you about the challenges of 0:20:55.975 --> 0:21:00.115 being best friends with a therapist because something that I've 0:21:00.125 --> 0:21:04.554 noticed can be really damaging in friendships. And a couple 0:21:04.564 --> 0:21:07.164 of friendships I've had, have nearly run off the road 0:21:07.174 --> 0:21:10.164 at various times for me where one of us starts 0:21:10.174 --> 0:21:13.814 playing therapist to the other and giving advice to the 0:21:13.825 --> 0:21:17.944 other and it turns into, well, here's what you should do. 0:21:18.434 --> 0:21:21.005 How do you avoid that when your best friend is 0:21:21.014 --> 0:21:22.715 an actual therapist? 0:21:22.725 --> 0:21:24.835 Oh, that's, I've never been asked that before. And that's 0:21:24.845 --> 0:21:28.875 so interesting. I think she is a therapist. But to 0:21:28.885 --> 0:21:32.635 my mind also the world's best therapist, she's so brilliant 0:21:32.644 --> 0:21:36.225 at what she does that the problem comes about in 0:21:36.235 --> 0:21:38.924 those sort of situations when, as you rightly say, your 0:21:38.934 --> 0:21:42.345 friend is playing a therapist rather than actually being one. 0:21:42.784 --> 0:21:48.635 And the best therapists don't proffer un, asked for advice. 0:21:48.644 --> 0:21:51.995 And Emma is definitely one of those best therapists. Yeah. 0:21:52.325 --> 0:21:53.755 So I, 0:21:54.215 --> 0:21:57.304 I'm in a dynamic with her where I genuinely like 0:21:57.314 --> 0:22:00.644 I seek her counsel. She's one of the two people 0:22:00.654 --> 0:22:04.144 and she's probably the most important. She, it's Emma and 0:22:04.154 --> 0:22:07.404 my husband that I will go to for advice if 0:22:07.414 --> 0:22:09.325 I'm really struggling with something. If I'm not sure about 0:22:09.335 --> 0:22:10.825 what decision to make, if I'm not sure how to 0:22:10.835 --> 0:22:14.794 communicate it, I'm extremely conflict avoidant. They're really good at 0:22:14.804 --> 0:22:17.465 helping me handle that. And I will always go and 0:22:17.475 --> 0:22:20.115 ask her and then she will tell me what she 0:22:20.125 --> 0:22:23.255 thinks and it's so unbelievably helpful, but it's always that 0:22:23.264 --> 0:22:24.005 way around. 0:22:24.335 --> 0:22:28.345 Emma would never therapize me unless I asked her to. 0:22:28.845 --> 0:22:32.345 And I feel incredibly blessed by this best friendship because 0:22:32.355 --> 0:22:36.605 there's such a confluence of her knowing me so well. 0:22:36.684 --> 0:22:40.985 And also her having this extraordinary professional expertise 0:22:41.149 --> 0:22:44.269 to help me through life challenges when and if I 0:22:44.279 --> 0:22:47.360 need it. And if Emma does ever feel that she 0:22:47.370 --> 0:22:50.169 needs to step in, if, for instance, she feels I'm 0:22:50.179 --> 0:22:53.519 unsafe and that has happened in a past romantic relationship. 0:22:53.529 --> 0:22:56.039 And she did feel that she had to intervene, which 0:22:56.049 --> 0:22:59.649 was very uncharacteristic for her. She will always do it 0:22:59.880 --> 0:23:03.639 as a question. So she would always say, have you 0:23:03.649 --> 0:23:06.399 thought about this or how are you feeling about this? 0:23:06.409 --> 0:23:09.200 Rather than coming in saying, I think you should leave 0:23:09.210 --> 0:23:10.260 him because I think 0:23:10.505 --> 0:23:14.235 it's toxic. And actually, she's taught me so much because 0:23:14.245 --> 0:23:16.394 I've gone wrong with that in the past. And actually 0:23:16.404 --> 0:23:19.054 the one time that Emma and I had a mild 0:23:19.064 --> 0:23:21.105 falling out that neither of us ever want to speak 0:23:21.115 --> 0:23:24.075 about ever again. It was in our twenties and she 0:23:24.085 --> 0:23:26.934 was in a toxic relationship and I did do that 0:23:27.404 --> 0:23:32.034 intervention where I was trying to therapize her by giving 0:23:32.044 --> 0:23:36.085 her a statement of you should leave. And I don't 0:23:36.095 --> 0:23:39.455 think that that's ever really appropriate. I think one of 0:23:39.465 --> 0:23:44.034 the key facets of meaningful friendship is the ability to 0:23:44.044 --> 0:23:44.575 listen 0:23:44.784 --> 0:23:50.294 judgmentally and Emma utterly exemplifies that. Now, the only thing is, 0:23:50.304 --> 0:23:52.154 and she won't mind me saying this because we've laughed 0:23:52.164 --> 0:23:57.034 about it when your best friend or maybe you are 0:23:57.044 --> 0:23:59.764 in a romantic relationship with someone who is training to 0:23:59.774 --> 0:24:02.075 be a therapist. Now, when they're training, 0:24:02.774 --> 0:24:03.625 you have to be 0:24:03.635 --> 0:24:05.644 quite on they 0:24:05.654 --> 0:24:10.105 need to practice and quite often. Emma, not really with me, 0:24:10.115 --> 0:24:12.225 but with her husband, her husband would be like, oh, 0:24:12.235 --> 0:24:15.664 I forgot to put chili in the lasagna and she'd 0:24:15.674 --> 0:24:17.095 be like, no. Why do you think you did that? 0:24:17.105 --> 0:24:18.534 Do you think it was your upbringing? 0:24:20.194 --> 0:24:22.715 Do you think that's a cry for help? Not putting chili? 0:24:22.725 --> 0:24:24.115 You trying to be helpless? 0:24:26.654 --> 0:24:30.485 Amina? Art Tosa and her best friend. I've forgotten her 0:24:30.495 --> 0:24:31.414 last name. 0:24:31.424 --> 0:24:33.575 Um, oh, 0:24:33.715 --> 0:24:36.865 yes, that's embarrassing. Anne Friedman. I should remember. It's the 0:24:36.875 --> 0:24:38.034 same surname as me. 0:24:38.365 --> 0:24:41.274 They wrote a book about friendship called Big Friendship and 0:24:41.284 --> 0:24:45.804 she talks about friendship stretching. How there are times in 0:24:45.814 --> 0:24:50.194 every friendship where you'll have to do small stretches. So 0:24:50.255 --> 0:24:54.615 maybe it might be that one friend is getting married 0:24:54.625 --> 0:24:57.995 and obsessed with her wedding or another friend moves into state, 0:24:58.314 --> 0:25:02.064 but then there'll be like bigger stretches. So maybe one 0:25:02.075 --> 0:25:05.814 friend will become a Trump supporter or they'll have a 0:25:05.825 --> 0:25:10.944 baby or they experience something really difficult. She says that 0:25:10.955 --> 0:25:13.845 stretching can have a positive impact in terms of the 0:25:13.855 --> 0:25:15.284 resilience of your friendship. 0:25:15.684 --> 0:25:19.814 But what happens when something just stretches too far? Can 0:25:19.825 --> 0:25:20.745 you talk a little bit about 0:25:20.755 --> 0:25:24.174 Ella? Yes. I, I'm so glad you picked up on 0:25:24.184 --> 0:25:28.215 the idea of stretches because it really helped me when 0:25:28.225 --> 0:25:31.034 I read that book, Big Friendship, which I highly recommend 0:25:31.044 --> 0:25:34.615 because they write it together. It's like written by a 0:25:34.625 --> 0:25:37.575 dual friendship and I've never really read anything quite like it. 0:25:37.975 --> 0:25:39.595 And you're so right that 0:25:39.855 --> 0:25:43.184 there are some friendships that you do want to accommodate. 0:25:43.194 --> 0:25:45.505 And so you will stretch your muscle. And as you say, 0:25:45.514 --> 0:25:48.684 it can be positive because just like stretching your physical muscles, 0:25:48.825 --> 0:25:51.505 you end up having more capacity because you're willing to 0:25:51.514 --> 0:25:54.444 do that. But you're right that there are certain friendships 0:25:54.455 --> 0:25:56.564 that ultimately 0:25:56.894 --> 0:25:59.264 either of you will think. I don't know if it 0:25:59.274 --> 0:26:02.054 is worth stretching. I feel like I'm stretching to the 0:26:02.064 --> 0:26:05.485 point of my muscles snapping. And I feel that I'm 0:26:05.495 --> 0:26:07.355 doing more of the stretching or they're doing more of 0:26:07.365 --> 0:26:09.995 the stretching and it's not reciprocal anymore in the way 0:26:10.005 --> 0:26:11.164 that it should be. 0:26:11.495 --> 0:26:13.585 And that can be for any number of reasons. As 0:26:13.595 --> 0:26:17.625 you identify, it can be one person having a baby 0:26:17.635 --> 0:26:20.715 and the other person struggling in fertility. And I've had 0:26:20.725 --> 0:26:24.944 that experience too or as was the case with my friend, 0:26:24.955 --> 0:26:28.664 Ella finding yourself in a vastly different life phase and 0:26:28.674 --> 0:26:31.845 moving geographically far away from each other. 0:26:32.205 --> 0:26:35.284 And Ella is someone that I mentioned in the opening 0:26:35.294 --> 0:26:38.495 chapter of the book because it was part of the 0:26:38.505 --> 0:26:42.444 function of my reassessment of friendship during lockdown was that 0:26:42.455 --> 0:26:46.444 I really evaluated the stretching that I was doing. And 0:26:46.455 --> 0:26:51.225 whether all of the friendships in my life required or 0:26:51.235 --> 0:26:55.304 could accommodate continued stretching to that level, and Ella was 0:26:55.314 --> 0:26:57.394 one that couldn't 0:26:57.715 --> 0:27:00.975 and it was for a number of reasons. It was 0:27:00.985 --> 0:27:03.325 that and I had bonded 0:27:04.034 --> 0:27:08.225 in our twenties when she was so much fun and 0:27:08.235 --> 0:27:11.044 we would go out and have lots of fun, capital 0:27:11.054 --> 0:27:14.465 letters together and we'd drink and we'd get up late 0:27:14.475 --> 0:27:16.615 and we didn't have jobs that were that important at 0:27:16.625 --> 0:27:18.674 the time. And it was, it was for a very 0:27:18.684 --> 0:27:23.914 specific phase in our lives. And then as we grew 0:27:23.924 --> 0:27:27.314 older I knew that I wanted to try for a 0:27:27.325 --> 0:27:30.325 family and I started doing a lot of fertility treatment 0:27:30.335 --> 0:27:33.784 and Ella had never wanted Children and she couldn't understand that. 0:27:34.245 --> 0:27:39.554 And that's absolutely fine. But at the same time as 0:27:39.564 --> 0:27:43.434 not being able to understand that or I felt to 0:27:43.444 --> 0:27:47.585 make the kind of cognitive empathetic leap to try or 0:27:47.595 --> 0:27:49.375 to ask me questions about it and to listen to 0:27:49.385 --> 0:27:52.914 what I was experiencing, she began to feel, I think 0:27:52.924 --> 0:27:56.014 quite resentful that I wasn't available for her in exactly 0:27:56.024 --> 0:27:58.855 the same way that I had in the past as 0:27:58.865 --> 0:28:01.735 the fun friend who could go out. And, and 0:28:02.174 --> 0:28:05.505 I've already mentioned the fact that I'm extremely conflict avoidant. 0:28:05.514 --> 0:28:08.774 And I think that makes me cowardly. And so for 0:28:08.784 --> 0:28:13.085 a long time, I wasn't being honest about the friction 0:28:13.095 --> 0:28:16.625 that I felt and I was trying to do that 0:28:16.635 --> 0:28:22.644 thing of making communication slightly less frequent and, and during lockdown, clearly, 0:28:22.654 --> 0:28:26.184 Ella was undergoing her own reevaluation and 0:28:26.524 --> 0:28:29.875 she to her credit, I mean, there was a Facebook 0:28:29.885 --> 0:28:31.894 message involved which I go into more detail in the 0:28:31.904 --> 0:28:34.424 book that really, I thought, oh no, I don't think 0:28:34.434 --> 0:28:37.455 there's any return from this, but she ended up sending 0:28:37.465 --> 0:28:39.255 me a text saying I feel that there's a distance 0:28:39.264 --> 0:28:42.995 between us. What's that? I'd really like to know. And 0:28:43.005 --> 0:28:46.154 I honestly, I'm so grateful that she did that and 0:28:46.164 --> 0:28:48.694 it was very brave of her because it meant that 0:28:48.705 --> 0:28:50.715 I felt safe being 0:28:51.135 --> 0:28:55.245 honest. But loving in my response and I replied saying, 0:28:55.255 --> 0:28:56.985 I think you're right and I think that we're in 0:28:56.995 --> 0:29:01.085 different life phases and it's nothing negative about who we 0:29:01.095 --> 0:29:05.304 are as people. It's simply that there's too much stretching 0:29:05.314 --> 0:29:07.965 involved to meet each other where we once did. 0:29:08.715 --> 0:29:13.505 And in the end, we carried on the conversation by text. 0:29:13.514 --> 0:29:14.924 And in the end, I said, you know, I wish 0:29:14.934 --> 0:29:17.835 you nothing but love and all the happiness in the world. 0:29:18.095 --> 0:29:19.975 But I think we're in different places right now and 0:29:19.985 --> 0:29:21.745 I have my own stuff and I know that you 0:29:21.755 --> 0:29:25.524 have yours and I send you love and she reciprocated 0:29:25.534 --> 0:29:28.054 and it's one of the most evolved things that has 0:29:28.064 --> 0:29:32.424 ever happened to me. And if I'm really honest, I actually, 0:29:32.434 --> 0:29:35.215 as a result of that, it sounds odd because 0:29:35.575 --> 0:29:38.125 Ella is no longer an active day to day friend 0:29:38.135 --> 0:29:40.825 in my life. But I feel closer to her. I 0:29:40.835 --> 0:29:43.505 feel that we know each other better 0:29:43.745 --> 0:29:46.855 because we created the space where we could be honest 0:29:46.865 --> 0:29:51.154 about that. And our friendship is in no way, a failure. 0:29:51.164 --> 0:29:54.485 It's like we've protected the beautiful thing that it was 0:29:54.585 --> 0:29:56.635 and that it might in the fullness of time become 0:29:56.644 --> 0:29:59.325 again in a different phase of our life. And I'm 0:29:59.335 --> 0:30:01.975 a huge advocate of the fact that a friendship ends 0:30:01.985 --> 0:30:04.835 or moves into a different evolution does not mean that 0:30:04.845 --> 0:30:06.735 you have failed that it's a negative 0:30:06.955 --> 0:30:10.985 because my relationship with Ella and my memory of her 0:30:10.995 --> 0:30:13.144 and the things that she taught me of life will 0:30:13.154 --> 0:30:17.054 forever shape how I live. And that's my way of 0:30:17.064 --> 0:30:20.284 still being an active dialogue with that friendship. And so 0:30:20.294 --> 0:30:23.335 that was the first time that I've had a friendship 0:30:23.345 --> 0:30:27.304 breakup where it felt that we were both grown up 0:30:27.314 --> 0:30:28.304 enough and 0:30:29.034 --> 0:30:32.174 evolved enough to be honest about it. And it was 0:30:32.184 --> 0:30:33.924 a really positive experience. 0:30:34.184 --> 0:30:37.245 It's almost like you broke up and stay friends like, 0:30:37.255 --> 0:30:40.615 you know, that you still feel fondly towards, but it 0:30:40.625 --> 0:30:43.595 doesn't always go that way. And you had a very 0:30:43.605 --> 0:30:46.194 different experience with Becca, 0:30:46.644 --> 0:30:51.424 which just feels mortifying. And I'm so so glad that 0:30:51.444 --> 0:30:54.944 you wrote about it because often when we're ghosted by 0:30:54.955 --> 0:30:57.924 a friend, we never find out why, which is its 0:30:57.934 --> 0:31:01.215 own form of torture. But also can you explain what 0:31:01.225 --> 0:31:06.365 happened and what you found out about why Becca ghosted 0:31:06.375 --> 0:31:07.375 you in the end? 0:31:07.845 --> 0:31:11.654 Yes. So Becca, this is now going back a few years. 0:31:11.664 --> 0:31:14.784 So this was before Ella, before I was the highly 0:31:14.794 --> 0:31:19.424 evolved person that I now am just joking. But it 0:31:19.434 --> 0:31:22.975 was at a time when there was even less language 0:31:22.985 --> 0:31:27.404 around friendship than now and friend aholic, as I mentioned 0:31:27.414 --> 0:31:29.575 is part of an attempt to correct that so that 0:31:29.585 --> 0:31:31.745 this doesn't ever need to happen again. But I was 0:31:31.755 --> 0:31:32.514 ghosted 0:31:32.745 --> 0:31:36.115 overnight by someone who I would have considered back then, 0:31:36.125 --> 0:31:38.215 one of my three closest friends. And it was an 0:31:38.225 --> 0:31:41.934 incredibly shocking thing to happen and it triggered a slow 0:31:41.944 --> 0:31:45.095 motion grief. The likes of which I have never experienced 0:31:45.105 --> 0:31:48.654 before or since it's a very specific kind of grief 0:31:48.664 --> 0:31:52.024 because you're right that when you're ghosted, someone drops out 0:31:52.034 --> 0:31:54.934 of your life, there is no explanation. And so you 0:31:54.944 --> 0:31:57.075 are left with your own narrative. 0:31:57.444 --> 0:32:01.725 And if you are someone who tends to veer towards 0:32:01.735 --> 0:32:04.855 self criticism, who has lots of feelings of guilt, you 0:32:04.865 --> 0:32:08.075 end up thinking you must have been an awful, horrible person. 0:32:08.085 --> 0:32:10.774 And that's how I felt for a really long time. 0:32:11.264 --> 0:32:14.764 And what happened with Becca is that it was one 0:32:14.774 --> 0:32:18.455 of those friendships that I was too quick to fall into. 0:32:18.465 --> 0:32:21.564 So it's taught me a lot in that respect. I 0:32:21.575 --> 0:32:24.314 went through a phase in my thirties of going to 0:32:24.325 --> 0:32:31.105 spin classes and enjoying the pumping music and the adrenaline instructors. 0:32:31.345 --> 0:32:33.875 And I would always be skulking in the back row 0:32:33.885 --> 0:32:37.404 because I never wanted anyone to see me sweat, absolute 0:32:37.414 --> 0:32:40.014 buckets onto the floor and failed to keep up the 0:32:40.024 --> 0:32:40.894 tap back rhythm. 0:32:41.144 --> 0:32:43.644 But Becca came in one day and just, she was 0:32:43.654 --> 0:32:46.375 one of the people who wore the most incredible sort 0:32:46.385 --> 0:32:51.625 of leopard print two piece gym sets and she clipped 0:32:51.635 --> 0:32:54.014 into the bike in the front row and could follow 0:32:54.024 --> 0:32:56.095 everything that the instructor was telling her to do. And 0:32:56.105 --> 0:33:00.444 she was just so impressive and charismatic. From the first 0:33:00.455 --> 0:33:04.085 moment I laid eyes on her and we bonded after 0:33:04.095 --> 0:33:06.245 that and we kind of met in the shower queue 0:33:06.255 --> 0:33:08.115 afterwards and then that turned into 0:33:08.385 --> 0:33:10.904 a coffee and then that turned into cocktails and then 0:33:10.914 --> 0:33:13.314 we were having dinners and I was going through a 0:33:13.325 --> 0:33:17.255 really difficult time in my personal life. So I had 0:33:17.264 --> 0:33:20.414 been married and my first marriage was in the process 0:33:20.424 --> 0:33:22.514 of imploding, although I didn't quite know it then. 0:33:22.944 --> 0:33:26.444 And Becca at that time was also in quite an 0:33:26.455 --> 0:33:29.335 unhappy place in her personal life. And so there was 0:33:29.345 --> 0:33:33.205 an immediate sense of bonding there. And I think that 0:33:33.215 --> 0:33:37.635 what happened is that we saw ourselves through a really 0:33:37.644 --> 0:33:42.255 difficult phase where we felt that our sadness was matched 0:33:42.264 --> 0:33:45.255 in each other's sadness. And so we became very close, 0:33:45.264 --> 0:33:47.154 very quickly and 0:33:47.814 --> 0:33:51.965 time moved on. And I got out of my first 0:33:51.975 --> 0:33:55.684 marriage and I became single and I started dating and 0:33:55.694 --> 0:33:58.814 I quit a job that hadn't been satisfying me and 0:33:58.995 --> 0:34:01.564 things started going a little bit better professionally. And I 0:34:01.575 --> 0:34:04.745 moved into my own rented flat around the corner by 0:34:04.755 --> 0:34:06.825 the way from Becca who suggested that she was like, 0:34:06.835 --> 0:34:08.005 we can hang out all the time 0:34:08.595 --> 0:34:14.225 and the hangouts never materialized because I now realize that 0:34:14.235 --> 0:34:19.125 my life was moving on and I still absolutely loved 0:34:19.135 --> 0:34:21.044 Becker and had loads of space for her. But I 0:34:21.054 --> 0:34:25.865 don't think that she was ready to move on from 0:34:25.875 --> 0:34:30.304 her own sadness or couldn't. And therefore being close with 0:34:30.314 --> 0:34:32.865 me was like holding a mirror up to something she 0:34:32.875 --> 0:34:36.064 didn't want to see reflected. And I think that was 0:34:36.075 --> 0:34:38.425 the start of this distance. So 0:34:38.743 --> 0:34:42.314 I would suggest meeting up for dinner and she would say, oh, 0:34:42.324 --> 0:34:44.164 can we make it a coffee instead? And it just 0:34:44.174 --> 0:34:47.523 became briefer and briefer until I got to the stage 0:34:47.533 --> 0:34:50.973 of thinking, I don't want to force her into something. 0:34:50.983 --> 0:34:52.713 Maybe she's going through her own stuff and I should 0:34:52.723 --> 0:34:53.814 give her space. 0:34:53.824 --> 0:34:54.634 She's just not that 0:34:54.644 --> 0:34:58.183 into me. Yeah, exactly. And I never heard from her again. 0:34:58.193 --> 0:35:00.433 And months after 0:35:01.274 --> 0:35:03.885 when I was still giving her space, I remember walking 0:35:03.895 --> 0:35:07.214 out of the tube station where I lived and walking 0:35:07.224 --> 0:35:10.655 up the road to my flat and Becca. So I 0:35:10.665 --> 0:35:14.125 should just say I've anonymized every single person in this 0:35:14.135 --> 0:35:16.964 book who belongs to my past. So 0:35:17.494 --> 0:35:20.464 I was walking up the street and I saw Becca 0:35:20.474 --> 0:35:22.504 on the other side of the road and I saw 0:35:22.514 --> 0:35:25.185 her seeing me, you know, you know, when someone clocks 0:35:25.195 --> 0:35:28.385 you and our eyes briefly met and then she just 0:35:28.395 --> 0:35:32.264 turned away and carried on walking and it was so shocking. 0:35:32.274 --> 0:35:35.415 I had been caught dead in the street. That was 0:35:35.425 --> 0:35:39.764 really my final verdict. I was like, oh, ok, I 0:35:39.774 --> 0:35:42.635 get it now. She does not want to be my 0:35:42.645 --> 0:35:45.585 friend anymore. And that was a very difficult thing to 0:35:45.595 --> 0:35:46.625 come to terms with 0:35:47.224 --> 0:35:50.454 many, many months after that. I met up with another 0:35:50.464 --> 0:35:53.415 former friend of hers who the same thing had happened to. 0:35:53.695 --> 0:35:57.635 And she said that Becca had felt suffocated by my 0:35:57.645 --> 0:36:00.794 closeness and I could have a lot of sympathy for 0:36:00.804 --> 0:36:04.075 that looking back because actually, I did think Becca was amazing. 0:36:04.085 --> 0:36:04.204 Do 0:36:04.214 --> 0:36:06.075 you wanna die when you heard that? 0:36:06.085 --> 0:36:06.835 Yes, 0:36:08.695 --> 0:36:10.984 it's awful, isn't it? And you look back and I 0:36:10.994 --> 0:36:13.115 looked back and I was like, I see where she 0:36:13.125 --> 0:36:14.385 was coming from because 0:36:14.784 --> 0:36:18.974 I respected her so much. And I did want her 0:36:18.984 --> 0:36:21.204 advice and I did want to be like her and 0:36:21.214 --> 0:36:22.935 I did want to know where she got her clothes 0:36:22.945 --> 0:36:25.064 and she was really generous and she was like, oh, 0:36:25.075 --> 0:36:28.804 you must go and see this osteopath and let me 0:36:28.814 --> 0:36:30.905 take you shopping because these boots would suit you. And 0:36:30.915 --> 0:36:33.454 she was like an older sister in so many ways 0:36:33.464 --> 0:36:37.204 for me. And because I was at that time, insecure 0:36:37.214 --> 0:36:39.825 and flailing in the rest of my life, I think 0:36:39.835 --> 0:36:41.375 I probably latched on to that. 0:36:41.645 --> 0:36:45.085 And so I could understand from both perspectives what had 0:36:45.095 --> 0:36:45.774 happened 0:36:46.064 --> 0:36:48.964 and that understanding has given me a lot of love 0:36:48.974 --> 0:36:52.024 and fondness for the friendship that we had again, like 0:36:52.034 --> 0:36:54.865 Ella and I've had to do that work myself because 0:36:54.875 --> 0:36:57.935 I haven't had someone to speak with about it and 0:36:57.945 --> 0:37:01.464 to work through it with. But I also understand that 0:37:01.474 --> 0:37:06.155 sometimes friendships can be so difficult and so nuanced and 0:37:06.165 --> 0:37:08.994 so complex and sometimes you can love someone so much 0:37:09.195 --> 0:37:13.054 that you just can't communicate what it is because you 0:37:13.064 --> 0:37:14.454 know that it's gonna hurt them. 0:37:14.984 --> 0:37:18.405 And sometimes it feels like the path of least resistance 0:37:18.415 --> 0:37:21.865 is just to drop out of their lives without a word. 0:37:21.964 --> 0:37:25.935 And so I have great sympathy for what she must 0:37:25.945 --> 0:37:27.835 have gone through. And 0:37:28.304 --> 0:37:32.665 I have now moved on with love from what happened 0:37:32.675 --> 0:37:34.855 to me. But I'm really glad I wrote that chapter 0:37:34.865 --> 0:37:37.365 because I knew that if I was going to tell 0:37:37.375 --> 0:37:40.335 the truth about friendship in this book, I also had 0:37:40.345 --> 0:37:42.835 to tell the things that were really uncomfortable for me 0:37:42.845 --> 0:37:45.415 that didn't paint me in a particularly good life. But 0:37:45.425 --> 0:37:48.724 that were about my being honest about what this thing 0:37:48.734 --> 0:37:52.714 is that we all value either because we have it 0:37:52.724 --> 0:37:54.635 in our lives or because we don't and because we're 0:37:54.645 --> 0:37:57.135 lonely and we want to understand more about it. 0:37:57.534 --> 0:38:01.284 And writing that chapter was really difficult. But it was 0:38:01.294 --> 0:38:04.905 also cathartic ultimately because I was able to put into 0:38:04.915 --> 0:38:07.405 words how I felt about it. And it gave me 0:38:07.415 --> 0:38:09.165 more of an insight into what I think was going 0:38:09.175 --> 0:38:11.915 on in Becca's mind. But the amazing thing about it 0:38:11.925 --> 0:38:14.744 has been the resonance it seems to have had with 0:38:14.754 --> 0:38:17.754 readers because so many people have got in touch with 0:38:17.764 --> 0:38:20.504 me to say the same thing happened to them. 0:38:20.764 --> 0:38:25.024 And that's been really reassuring in one way that it 0:38:25.034 --> 0:38:29.935 wasn't necessarily just me acting like an awful suffocating person 0:38:30.175 --> 0:38:32.714 that it's happened to lots of people. And it's because 0:38:32.724 --> 0:38:33.974 we don't have the language. 0:38:34.145 --> 0:38:37.064 It's so common. Like you just come in too hot 0:38:37.075 --> 0:38:40.195 and yeah, like she came in too hot as well 0:38:40.204 --> 0:38:43.534 and then just went off reverse, which is what you've 0:38:43.544 --> 0:38:45.054 also felt with other people. 0:38:45.435 --> 0:38:48.365 So. Exactly. Yeah. One of the things I appreciate about 0:38:48.375 --> 0:38:50.845 this book is that you say that we have so 0:38:50.855 --> 0:38:56.304 much language and mythology and narrative around explaining romantic relationships, 0:38:56.425 --> 0:39:00.464 but so little around friendships. You know, even the idea 0:39:00.474 --> 0:39:03.425 that a friendship could end is like we expect our 0:39:03.435 --> 0:39:06.595 romantic relationships to end mostly, or we're certainly not that 0:39:06.605 --> 0:39:10.385 shocked when they do. We've all experienced that. But the 0:39:10.395 --> 0:39:14.925 idea that friendship should last forever, that's almost our default. 0:39:15.355 --> 0:39:19.274 And when they don't, it can be really confronting, can it? 0:39:19.454 --> 0:39:24.724 Exactly that there is such an unrealistic expectation of platonic love. 0:39:24.734 --> 0:39:27.685 It's the idea that if you sit next to someone 0:39:27.695 --> 0:39:31.175 at primary school purely because you share the same first 0:39:31.185 --> 0:39:35.185 letter of your surname and you become friends unless you 0:39:35.195 --> 0:39:39.125 are friends and remain friends for the rest of your 0:39:39.135 --> 0:39:42.954 joint lives. You have somehow failed. You are somehow a 0:39:42.964 --> 0:39:44.784 quote unquote bad friend. 0:39:45.234 --> 0:39:48.105 And you're absolutely right that we don't have that same 0:39:48.115 --> 0:39:53.405 expectation of romantic love with romantic love. There is a belief, 0:39:53.415 --> 0:39:56.484 an assumption that you might have a high school sweetheart. 0:39:56.494 --> 0:39:59.764 But it's quite rare for that high school sweetheart to 0:39:59.774 --> 0:40:05.294 turn into your lifelong monogamous partner that actually we expect 0:40:05.304 --> 0:40:09.064 ourselves to date to try out relationships, to end them, 0:40:09.075 --> 0:40:11.425 to see what happens. Even if we get married as 0:40:11.435 --> 0:40:13.585 we know one in three marriages end in divorce. 0:40:13.885 --> 0:40:17.415 And there is so much less moralizing unless someone has 0:40:17.425 --> 0:40:21.014 behaved terribly badly. But there is generally less moralizing when 0:40:21.024 --> 0:40:25.145 a romantic relationship ends. We understand that that is part 0:40:25.155 --> 0:40:29.034 of growing apart is part of life's evolution. 0:40:29.405 --> 0:40:34.054 The same thing we should also understand about friendships. There 0:40:34.064 --> 0:40:37.744 are some friendships that will serve an amazing purpose for 0:40:37.754 --> 0:40:40.524 one part of your life, but it doesn't mean that 0:40:40.534 --> 0:40:43.185 you need to keep them going forever and ever and ever. 0:40:43.195 --> 0:40:47.954 And actually, it's unsustainable because you're not creating space to 0:40:47.964 --> 0:40:51.105 let new experiences or connections in and you're not creating 0:40:51.115 --> 0:40:53.865 space to nurture the connections that are the really meaningful 0:40:53.875 --> 0:40:58.804 ones that are governed by reciprocity and generosity. And 0:40:59.304 --> 0:41:03.835 I am so passionate about making that clear and also 0:41:03.845 --> 0:41:06.695 making it clear that with romantic love, there's a whole 0:41:06.704 --> 0:41:09.095 set of social rituals that you can go through to 0:41:09.105 --> 0:41:13.615 show what your relationship is to each other, to the 0:41:13.625 --> 0:41:18.395 outside world. So you can have a wedding if you want. 0:41:18.415 --> 0:41:20.454 You can sign a piece of paper that shows your 0:41:20.464 --> 0:41:23.494 civil partners. You can move in together, buy a place 0:41:23.570 --> 0:41:27.700 together, have kids together. Even dating the formula of dating, 0:41:27.710 --> 0:41:29.679 you have a first date, which is like a chemistry check. 0:41:29.689 --> 0:41:32.220 The second date, you might go for dinner, the third date, 0:41:32.230 --> 0:41:35.149 you might discuss your shared ambitions and goals. We don't 0:41:35.159 --> 0:41:37.129 have that for a friendship and we think it's a 0:41:37.139 --> 0:41:40.780 bit cringe. And actually, it's so ironic because in a way, 0:41:40.790 --> 0:41:45.000 we have this misguided romantic principle about friendship, which is 0:41:45.010 --> 0:41:46.820 that you just connect and that's it then and you're 0:41:46.829 --> 0:41:47.919 locked in forever 0:41:48.405 --> 0:41:51.224 and we don't have it when we're looking for sort 0:41:51.234 --> 0:41:54.254 of actual romantic partners. But I've been doing a number 0:41:54.264 --> 0:41:57.325 of events around friend aholic here in the UK and 0:41:57.335 --> 0:42:01.214 at one of them in bath, someone asked a question 0:42:01.224 --> 0:42:03.034 and as part of the question said, you know, I 0:42:03.044 --> 0:42:05.554 totally agree with you about romantic rituals. And 0:42:05.814 --> 0:42:09.185 the day before I got married to my now husband, 0:42:09.405 --> 0:42:12.825 I insisted on having a marriage to my best friend 0:42:12.835 --> 0:42:15.784 where they went into the woods and they performed this, 0:42:16.014 --> 0:42:20.064 I know this beautiful commitment ceremony, which is not legally binding. 0:42:20.075 --> 0:42:22.685 But I just thought that that was so wonderful because 0:42:22.695 --> 0:42:24.994 you talk about what you expect of each other and 0:42:25.004 --> 0:42:26.964 what you can promise to each other. And I just, 0:42:27.185 --> 0:42:28.895 I'm a huge advocate of that. You don't need to 0:42:28.905 --> 0:42:30.345 go into the woods to do it, but just have 0:42:30.355 --> 0:42:31.974 the conversation. I love 0:42:31.984 --> 0:42:33.244 that. I love that. 0:42:36.115 --> 0:42:39.385 Coming up. Elizabeth gives the best definition I think I've 0:42:39.395 --> 0:42:42.885 ever heard of a toxic friendship. And she talks about 0:42:42.895 --> 0:42:47.744 the very specific and often unspoken pain of a friendship, breakup. 0:42:47.845 --> 0:42:48.645 Stick around. 0:42:52.365 --> 0:42:56.135 You talk about frenemies also, which I'm so glad that 0:42:56.145 --> 0:42:58.304 you have because you've put words around something that a 0:42:58.314 --> 0:43:00.774 lot of people find very slippery. 0:43:01.105 --> 0:43:05.575 You describe your relationship with one of your own frenemies. 0:43:05.585 --> 0:43:10.575 A guy called Ali and you describe frenemies as friendships 0:43:10.585 --> 0:43:13.665 that are so confusing. You never quite know what you're 0:43:13.675 --> 0:43:16.304 gonna get. They're the ones guaranteed to tell you a 0:43:16.314 --> 0:43:20.345 new haircut is interesting rather than giving a straightforward compliment. 0:43:20.355 --> 0:43:23.115 They're the ones who are secretly threatened by your success 0:43:23.125 --> 0:43:23.524 rather 0:43:23.615 --> 0:43:26.195 than rejoicing in it. They're the people who don't want 0:43:26.204 --> 0:43:29.264 to integrate you into their lives but will enjoy striking 0:43:29.274 --> 0:43:33.224 up intimate acquaintances with your other friends that exclude you. 0:43:33.244 --> 0:43:36.345 They will trigger feelings of uncertainty because they're capable of 0:43:36.355 --> 0:43:40.595 both love and withdrawal. They offer backhanded compliments and passive 0:43:40.605 --> 0:43:45.365 aggressive jabs and never seem entirely capable of being happy 0:43:45.375 --> 0:43:49.825 for you or do you still have this in your life? 0:43:50.284 --> 0:43:55.774 I do. But I have changed my response to it 0:43:55.784 --> 0:44:00.135 and that's why I can still have individuals like that 0:44:00.145 --> 0:44:03.905 in my life. So what I mean by that is 0:44:04.365 --> 0:44:07.085 a lot of people can relate to this, but there 0:44:07.095 --> 0:44:10.514 are some people and they're often very, very dear to 0:44:10.524 --> 0:44:14.685 you who for whatever reason and very often it's to 0:44:14.695 --> 0:44:17.155 do with what's going on in their lives 0:44:17.605 --> 0:44:23.754 can never be uncomplicated, happy for someone else, but also 0:44:24.014 --> 0:44:29.615 can never offer a consistent kind of love. And so 0:44:29.625 --> 0:44:31.794 it is that sense of any time that you have 0:44:31.804 --> 0:44:34.754 an interaction with them, you are not quite sure what 0:44:34.855 --> 0:44:38.435 their reaction is going to be, how they're going to respond, 0:44:39.304 --> 0:44:43.425 but you still love them because they also have amazing qualities. 0:44:43.435 --> 0:44:46.284 And Ali, who I mentioned in the book has so 0:44:46.294 --> 0:44:49.034 many amazing qualities. He can be so generous and you know, 0:44:49.044 --> 0:44:52.085 he can send me flowers out of the blue and 0:44:52.095 --> 0:44:56.784 just be so funny and charming to spend time with. 0:44:56.794 --> 0:45:01.445 And at his worst, he can also be passive aggressive 0:45:01.454 --> 0:45:05.145 and undermining. But what I realize about Ali is that 0:45:05.155 --> 0:45:07.445 it comes from his own insecurity. 0:45:07.645 --> 0:45:09.905 And actually I found a way of loving him for 0:45:09.915 --> 0:45:12.774 that too. That's big of you. I mean, I'm making 0:45:12.784 --> 0:45:15.274 myself sound like the hero here and I'm not by 0:45:15.284 --> 0:45:19.395 any means. I think I realized that if I didn't 0:45:19.405 --> 0:45:21.895 have Ali in my life, I would lose more than 0:45:21.905 --> 0:45:25.984 I'm currently losing. And I had a conversation with my 0:45:25.994 --> 0:45:27.034 husband about it 0:45:27.274 --> 0:45:30.685 and he said, ok, you have three options here. You 0:45:30.695 --> 0:45:34.734 either stop being friends with Ali or you stay being 0:45:34.744 --> 0:45:36.994 friends and it's the situation as it is and you'll 0:45:37.004 --> 0:45:38.385 go out have dinner with him and you'll come back 0:45:38.395 --> 0:45:41.195 and you'll feel really drained and upset and you'll download 0:45:41.204 --> 0:45:45.875 to me about it or you treat Ali as a 0:45:45.895 --> 0:45:48.464 sort of charitable service 0:45:48.704 --> 0:45:51.064 and what he meant by that was not that I'm 0:45:51.075 --> 0:45:54.145 some lady bountiful, dispensing my tokens from on top of 0:45:54.155 --> 0:45:56.825 my moral high horse. What he meant by that was. 0:45:57.075 --> 0:46:01.314 Can you concentrate on what your friendship might be bringing 0:46:01.325 --> 0:46:06.675 to Ali and exclusively try to focus your own energies 0:46:06.685 --> 0:46:09.504 on the positive things that Allie delivers. And that's a 0:46:09.514 --> 0:46:12.585 way of having a boundary in place that isn't cut 0:46:12.595 --> 0:46:15.814 and dried where you've just decided I've made the decision, 0:46:16.014 --> 0:46:18.395 I'll focus my energies here and not here. 0:46:18.655 --> 0:46:21.474 And I feel actually Annie is getting a lot out 0:46:21.484 --> 0:46:25.095 of this and therefore I want to do that for him. 0:46:25.474 --> 0:46:29.845 So that's really helped in terms of re categorizing where 0:46:29.855 --> 0:46:33.575 that friendship lies for me. And it's a bit like 0:46:33.585 --> 0:46:36.764 Elizabeth Gilbert's magic cloak like because I go in with 0:46:36.774 --> 0:46:41.625 that sense of I'm not going to give absolutely everything 0:46:41.635 --> 0:46:44.784 to every single complaint that he's got to tell loads. 0:46:44.875 --> 0:46:47.405 It makes me feel better about it. 0:46:47.500 --> 0:46:51.980 However, there are also other people who were more extreme 0:46:51.990 --> 0:46:55.750 than Ali in terms of their friendship, ambivalence who I 0:46:55.760 --> 0:46:59.369 no longer have in my life because they really did 0:46:59.379 --> 0:47:04.780 sap my energy in an unhealthy way. And if anyone 0:47:04.790 --> 0:47:07.030 is listening to this and thinking, oh, but it, you know, 0:47:07.040 --> 0:47:09.290 it's not that bad because sometimes they're nice. 0:47:09.605 --> 0:47:12.254 There's been a fascinating piece of research done by the 0:47:12.264 --> 0:47:17.365 University of Utah about ambivalent friendships ie frenemies where they 0:47:17.375 --> 0:47:20.595 got a number of participants to wear blood pressure monitors 0:47:20.605 --> 0:47:23.675 over the course of a few weeks and they measured 0:47:23.685 --> 0:47:27.075 the blood pressure when those respondents had interactions with people, 0:47:27.085 --> 0:47:32.665 they loved people, they actively hated and ambivalent friends where 0:47:32.675 --> 0:47:34.345 they never really knew what they were going to get 0:47:34.355 --> 0:47:36.554 from the other person. And they found that the blood 0:47:36.564 --> 0:47:38.554 pressure was wholly unaffected 0:47:38.835 --> 0:47:40.974 if you were having an interaction with someone you loved. 0:47:40.984 --> 0:47:43.564 And sometimes it even went down. If you were having 0:47:43.575 --> 0:47:46.855 an interaction with someone, you actively loathed. It also had 0:47:46.865 --> 0:47:50.764 no impact on your blood pressure because you were certain 0:47:50.774 --> 0:47:52.895 that you weren't going to like that person, they weren't 0:47:52.905 --> 0:47:55.744 going to give you what you needed. The ambivalent friends, 0:47:55.754 --> 0:47:58.284 they were the ones that caused a blood pressure spike 0:47:58.294 --> 0:48:02.115 because you were constantly having to recalibrate how you were 0:48:02.244 --> 0:48:05.185 according to what mood they were in any given day. 0:48:05.595 --> 0:48:09.185 And the same researchers went on to do future studies 0:48:09.195 --> 0:48:14.845 that showed that actually having too many ambivalent friendships negatively 0:48:14.855 --> 0:48:18.885 affects the formation of your DNA. It is actively bad 0:48:18.895 --> 0:48:20.405 for your physical health. 0:48:20.865 --> 0:48:23.764 And again, I found that quite liberating, I was like, OK, 0:48:23.845 --> 0:48:27.625 so that is a good reason for each individual to 0:48:27.635 --> 0:48:31.974 work out how many of those sorts of relationships they 0:48:31.984 --> 0:48:35.974 have capacity for in their lives because they are and 0:48:35.984 --> 0:48:37.314 they can be bad for you. 0:48:37.575 --> 0:48:40.554 I'm so glad that you spoke about that study because 0:48:40.564 --> 0:48:42.865 I've got a friend like that and I wouldn't think 0:48:42.875 --> 0:48:45.445 of her as a friend of me. But I like 0:48:45.454 --> 0:48:48.534 this idea of an ambivalent friend. She's so close to 0:48:48.544 --> 0:48:51.145 me and I adore her and I know she adores me, 0:48:51.234 --> 0:48:54.204 but she'll always just like point out that I look 0:48:54.214 --> 0:48:56.754 tired or that I've got a pimple 0:48:57.575 --> 0:49:02.064 that I've got dark circles and it doesn't make me rageful, 0:49:02.075 --> 0:49:04.304 but it would spike my blood pressure because I'm just 0:49:04.314 --> 0:49:06.754 not ready for it. And I don't know how to 0:49:06.764 --> 0:49:09.615 respond to it. I mean, when someone says you look 0:49:09.625 --> 0:49:13.345 really tired, what are you meant to say? So it 0:49:13.355 --> 0:49:16.135 catches you by surprise because you're in that vulnerable state 0:49:16.145 --> 0:49:17.484 because you love this person 0:49:17.784 --> 0:49:18.744 and then they just kind of 0:49:18.754 --> 0:49:21.564 jab you. It's, I'm not saying that this is what 0:49:21.575 --> 0:49:24.945 people should do at all. I once experimented and I 0:49:24.954 --> 0:49:26.605 think a lot of people will relate to this in 0:49:26.615 --> 0:49:30.615 terms of family members too. But I once experimented with 0:49:30.625 --> 0:49:33.814 giving back exactly what I was getting in a single 0:49:33.825 --> 0:49:36.895 interaction from an ambivalent person in my life. And they 0:49:36.905 --> 0:49:39.464 would be saying, oh, you look tired, oh, silver boots. Oh, 0:49:39.474 --> 0:49:41.695 I don't know if I'd wear silver boots. And I 0:49:41.704 --> 0:49:44.564 experimented with just doing the same to them in that 0:49:44.575 --> 0:49:45.175 moment 0:49:45.554 --> 0:49:48.224 and they were wearing a purple top and I was like, oh, purple. 0:49:48.234 --> 0:49:50.294 That's very brave of you to wear just to see 0:49:50.304 --> 0:49:53.504 what would happen. Did it work? Did they? And they 0:49:53.514 --> 0:49:56.004 didn't know they stopped, but they also didn't know how 0:49:56.014 --> 0:49:57.234 to deal with it. They were like, well, I like 0:49:57.244 --> 0:50:00.415 purple and I was like, and I like silver. It. 0:50:01.554 --> 0:50:04.405 I'm not saying that's not an enlighten way to go 0:50:04.415 --> 0:50:06.595 about life. But it was quite interesting to me to 0:50:06.605 --> 0:50:10.284 see she didn't like it, this particular individual. And we 0:50:10.294 --> 0:50:12.645 just moved on because I felt like I made my point. 0:50:13.024 --> 0:50:13.484 I love 0:50:13.494 --> 0:50:14.605 that so much. 0:50:16.425 --> 0:50:19.294 I kept the tape running after that because I wanted 0:50:19.304 --> 0:50:22.054 to talk to Elizabeth about all the ways her life 0:50:22.064 --> 0:50:25.175 changed so dramatically in her forties, how she's dealt with 0:50:25.185 --> 0:50:28.554 fame and success at the same time in her life 0:50:28.564 --> 0:50:32.454 as she's been dealing with massive disappointment and pain around her. 0:50:32.464 --> 0:50:33.375 Fertility is a 0:50:33.385 --> 0:50:38.454 taste at moments. I felt sheer panic and I absolutely 0:50:38.464 --> 0:50:42.655 did feel a great deal of failure and shame particularly 0:50:42.665 --> 0:50:44.075 over my marriage ending. 0:50:44.294 --> 0:50:46.885 But on the flip side of those spirals of panic, 0:50:46.895 --> 0:50:51.044 there was also massive opportunity because for the first time 0:50:51.054 --> 0:50:55.254 in my life, I was presented with an entirely blank canvas, 0:50:55.264 --> 0:50:57.655 you can listen to that second part of our conversation 0:50:57.685 --> 0:51:00.774 via the link in the show notes. This episode was 0:51:00.784 --> 0:51:04.244 produced by Cassie Merritt. The executive producer of No Filter 0:51:04.254 --> 0:51:08.064 is Eliza Ratliffe with sound production by Maddie Joan. I'm 0:51:08.075 --> 0:51:10.564 Mia Friedman and I'll be in your news next week.