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Speaker 1: For Mamma Mia, I'm Mia Friedman. And you're listening to

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Speaker 1: No Filter. Three weeks before Elizabeth Day's 39th birthday, she

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Speaker 1: had a really bad romantic breakup. It had been her

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Speaker 1: first long-term relationship after her divorce and she felt like

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Speaker 1: a total failure when it ended. She was looking down

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Speaker 1: the barrel of turning 40 as a single woman without

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Speaker 1: the Children. She so desperately wanted. This was not how

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Speaker 1: she thought her life was gonna be

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Speaker 1: a couple of years earlier. She'd already blown things up

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Speaker 1: a little bit by quitting her job as a journalist

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Speaker 1: at the observer newspaper and kind of randomly she decided

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Speaker 1: to start a podcast called How To Fail, where she

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Speaker 1: interviewed celebrities about their experiences of failure to reassure herself

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Speaker 1: and everyone about our own failures.

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Speaker 1: But this interview isn't about failure, even though Elizabeth's podcast

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Speaker 1: has become iconic. Today, we're talking about friendship and the

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Speaker 1: fact that Elizabeth is addicted to it, she calls herself

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Speaker 1: a friend aholic. She's written a book about it. And

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Speaker 1: while that may sound like a non problem, you can

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Speaker 1: have too many friends. It very much is a problem

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Speaker 1: and you're about to hear why my friendships underpin every

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Speaker 1: aspect of my life. I don't think I could be

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Speaker 1: married or be a mother or even do my job

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Speaker 1: without my friends.

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Speaker 1: But friendship comes with challenges. And Elizabeth points out that

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Speaker 1: we have a whole vocabulary to explain and understand the

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Speaker 1: ups and downs of romantic relationships. But friendships can also

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Speaker 1: be really, really complicated, sometimes even more complicated than romantic relationships,

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Speaker 1: especially when they end abruptly or go toxic or become

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Speaker 1: one sided or just fade. There's nothing more draining than

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Speaker 1: clinging to a friendship with someone. Just because 20 years earlier,

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Speaker 1: you worked together or went to school together.

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth said there's a big difference between being good at

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Speaker 1: friendship and being a good friend. And in 2020 she

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Speaker 1: realized she had a big problem if you stick around.

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Speaker 1: You'll also hear my conversation with Elizabeth about her hugely

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Speaker 1: successful podcast. How to fail and why a recent essay

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Speaker 1: that she wrote about fertility privilege sent me into a

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Speaker 1: rage spiral.

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Speaker 1: Enjoy this conversation with Elizabeth Day. I did.

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Speaker 1: This story starts with the moment you realized you were

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Speaker 1: a friendship addict. Can you tell me a bit about that?

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Speaker 2: Yes, that was the starting point, not only for the book,

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Speaker 2: but for my own journey of psychological self discovery. And

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Speaker 2: I think it came about because of the lockdown. So

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Speaker 2: as happened to almost everyone around the world, when the

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Speaker 2: pandemic hit our diaries emptied overnight. And when that happened

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Speaker 2: to me, I was confronted by the truth of how

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Speaker 2: I've been spending my time and I realized that I'd

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Speaker 2: spent all of my time trying to meet the demands

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Speaker 2: of people who I often liked but didn't know that. Well,

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Speaker 2: they were people that I'd fallen into a kind of

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Speaker 2: acquaintanceship with who I might have met sitting next to

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Speaker 2: at a work function who I might have exchanged a

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Speaker 2: few words with it, yoga class. And suddenly I found

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Speaker 2: myself in this dynamic where for whatever reason I felt

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Speaker 2: that we should be friends capital f friends.

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Speaker 2: And what that meant was that I was trying to

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Speaker 2: meet so many other demands that I wasn't spending enough

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Speaker 2: time with the people who were the most nourishing to me. Actually,

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Speaker 2: those people who are in my inner circle who I

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Speaker 2: am incredibly close to, who have known me for many

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Speaker 2: years and who would never place obligations on my time

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Speaker 2: because they know how quote unquote busy I am. And

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Speaker 2: I thought, well, there's something out of sorts there and

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Speaker 2: it felt like the equilibrium needed to be addressed.

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Speaker 2: And that was the, the beginning of thinking about friendship

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Speaker 2: and what it meant to me. And what I realized

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Speaker 2: was that I was a friend aholic. It's a term

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Speaker 2: that I have coined in order to denote exactly as

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Speaker 2: you say, an addiction to friendship, almost a codependent relationship

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Speaker 2: with friendship.

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Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is that at some

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Speaker 2: point in my life, it became more important for me

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Speaker 2: to be surrounded by people, to have a lot of

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Speaker 2: what I would term friends rather than to spend the

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Speaker 2: appropriate amount of time building up my own sense of

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Speaker 2: self worth or spending the appropriate amount of time focusing

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Speaker 2: my energies and my love on a core group of

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Speaker 2: people who were always going to have my back.

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Speaker 2: And for me, the roots of that came from secondary school.

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Speaker 2: When I grew up in Northern Ireland, I didn't have

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Speaker 2: a great time at secondary school in Belfast. I was bullied.

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Speaker 2: I felt very alone, isolated, scared. And when I changed schools,

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Speaker 2: it became the most important thing in my head

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Speaker 2: to make as many friends as possible. It didn't matter

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Speaker 2: who they were. It, I was making no judgment call.

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Speaker 2: I just needed to feel that I was accepted by

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Speaker 2: a tribe of people bigger than myself. I maintained that

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Speaker 2: mindset of thinking. The most important thing is numbers because

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Speaker 2: I can't be left on my own.

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Speaker 2: And actually it became unsustainable. And I'm sure many of

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Speaker 2: your listeners will relate to this because when we try

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Speaker 2: and spread ourselves so thinly so that we're trying to

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Speaker 2: meet everyone's demands in our busy, personal and professional lives. Actually,

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Speaker 2: what that means is that you're not doing yourself a

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Speaker 2: service and you're not doing those other people a service

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Speaker 2: because you're not giving them your best self. Every time,

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Speaker 2: you're just too exhausted

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Speaker 2: to have the energy to turn up as your full

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Speaker 2: self in every single scenario. So that is a brief

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Speaker 2: summary of what I believe a friend of holi

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Speaker 1: is. You talk about Dunbar's number and there are two

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Speaker 1: numbers that I want you to explain. One is five

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Speaker 1: and one is 100 and 50.

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Speaker 2: Yes. I'm so glad you asked me about Robin Dunbar

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Speaker 2: because I'm creepily obsessed with him.

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Speaker 2: He is, he's like the Og of Friendship Studies. He

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Speaker 2: is a professor of Evolutionary Psychology at Oxford University and

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Speaker 2: I've never actually met him. We've had some close run

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Speaker 2: ins where we've been at similar events, but for whatever reason,

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Speaker 2: the scheduling has never worked. And he famously coined what

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Speaker 2: is now known as Dumb Ball's number quite a few

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Speaker 2: years ago. And that's the 150 figure.

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Speaker 2: And that is the number of connections that Dunbar believes

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Speaker 2: the human brain can cope with where you will know

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Speaker 2: a salient fact about that individual's life where you will

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Speaker 2: be able to place them immediately, you know, their name,

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Speaker 2: you know, something about their context. 100 and 50 is

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Speaker 2: the number of people you would invite to a big

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Speaker 2: wedding for instance.

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Speaker 2: And it's a number that is replicated again and again

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Speaker 2: through history. So it's the average size, for instance, of

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Speaker 2: a medieval village. It's the average size of a Christmas

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Speaker 2: card list in the days when we all still sent

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Speaker 2: Christmas cards on pieces of paper. And that's Dunbar's number.

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Speaker 2: And that's an interesting number because I think what I

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Speaker 2: was doing when I was at the extremes of my,

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Speaker 2: my friendship addiction was I kept trying to accumulate more

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Speaker 2: and more people. And I have to say when I

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Speaker 2: say that it sounds rather clinical and it wasn't, these

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Speaker 2: are all people that I liked and that I felt

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Speaker 2: some sort of kindred connection with, but it was ultimately

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Speaker 2: unsustainable because Dunbar's number says in order to have a

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Speaker 2: meaningful connection and context with someone, the human brain can

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Speaker 2: only really go up to 100 and 50.

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Speaker 2: Now, a few years after that, Dunbar evolved this theory

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Speaker 2: into Dunbar's layers, which is the idea that the 100

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Speaker 2: and 50 numbers still stands. But within that there are

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Speaker 2: different layers of friendship

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Speaker 2: and there are different layers of relationship that will mean

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Speaker 2: something different and that will be able to meet different needs.

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Speaker 2: And the innermost layer he says goes up to five

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Speaker 2: key relationships. So that could be five really meaningful friendships.

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Speaker 2: They are the ones that you will call at 4 a.m.

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Speaker 2: when something goes wrong, they are the ones who will

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Speaker 2: have your back, who think the best of you who

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Speaker 2: you can pick up with instantly where you left off,

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Speaker 2: even if you haven't seen each other for a while,

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Speaker 2: they are your closest friends

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Speaker 2: and they're the ones that need nurturing and they're the

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Speaker 2: ones that need. The bulk of your time and time

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Speaker 2: is very important here because there's been lots of other

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Speaker 2: research done that shows it takes 200 hours at least

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Speaker 2: to know someone to be able to call them a friend.

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Speaker 2: And Dunbar says that if you

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Speaker 2: have a meaningful romantic relationship, if you get married, if

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Speaker 2: you have kids, that will generally cost you two of

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Speaker 2: those key five relationships.

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Speaker 1: So you'll only have three left.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but you have outer layers. So in the second layer,

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Speaker 2: it will go up to 10 friendships and they're people who,

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Speaker 2: you know, you might invite for dinner once every three months,

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Speaker 2: but you're not necessarily speaking to them every single day.

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Speaker 2: And that was a real light bulb moment for me

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Speaker 2: because I realized that I'd been trying so hard to

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Speaker 2: be the quote unquote, best, most perfect friend to everyone

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Speaker 2: in my life. But I misunderstood the fundamental nature of friendship,

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Speaker 2: which is that there are different kinds and

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Speaker 2: actually by spending too much of my time trying to

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Speaker 2: meet the needs of those outer layers in the same way.

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Speaker 2: And then to the same level as I was trying

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Speaker 2: to meet the needs of the inner layer, I was

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Speaker 2: doing a disservice to the people who were closest to me.

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Speaker 2: So those are two Dunbar numbers that really help my

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Speaker 2: own thinking.

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Speaker 1: You talk about that sort of difference, almost the difference

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Speaker 1: between the two numbers as the difference between being good

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Speaker 1: at friendship where you might have dozens of friends and

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Speaker 1: being a good friend, which Dunbar says you can only

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Speaker 1: really do with five people.

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Speaker 1: And in terms of being a good friend, you know,

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Speaker 1: the way the book works and you interview different friends

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Speaker 1: who have different roles in your life and you speak

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Speaker 1: to one friend who's an older friend called Joan and

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Speaker 1: she talks about the most important thing in friendship is reciprocity.

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Speaker 1: Like maybe not every day it's completely equal. But, you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes someone needs to lean in or some person isn't

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Speaker 1: able to give as much. But when you've got that

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Speaker 1: many friends,

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Speaker 1: is it that they all want to be your friend,

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Speaker 1: particularly since you've become successful and high profile and famous

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Speaker 1: in the last few years. Have you found that you

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Speaker 1: haven't evolved from thinking? Oh, if this person wants to

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Speaker 1: be my friend, I have to be their friend too

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Speaker 1: because I got chosen

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Speaker 2: what a great question. So many things to unpack that

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Speaker 2: first of all, you're so right to identify the difference

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Speaker 2: between being a good friend and good at friendship. My

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Speaker 2: best friend Emma

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Speaker 2: describes it as there being a fundamental difference between being

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Speaker 2: friendly to someone and actively wanting to pursue a friendship

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Speaker 2: because part of the reason I wrote friend aholic is

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Speaker 2: because friendship is one of the most meaningful, sustaining loves

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Speaker 2: of my life. It has seen me through so much.

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Speaker 2: I am so grateful to it and to my friends

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Speaker 2: and I wanted there to be a language to express

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Speaker 2: how much it meant to me. But

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Speaker 2: you have to give it your time and attention for

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Speaker 2: that to be a reciprocal friendship. It absolutely requires a

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Speaker 2: great deal of importance in your life. You need to

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Speaker 2: create space for it. And so there has to be

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Speaker 2: a difference between being friendly to someone in yoga class

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Speaker 2: and actively pursuing such a meaningful friendship. And I think

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Speaker 2: you have identified definitely an issue for me.

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Speaker 2: There's a number of things going on for me, which

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Speaker 2: I one of them is I for whatever reason, have

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Speaker 2: a fundamental lack of self esteem. That is part of

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Speaker 2: my life's work is to sort of work out why

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Speaker 2: that is. And I think if I can generalize a

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Speaker 2: bit of a gender, a lot of women possibly feel

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Speaker 2: the same because if like I did, you grew up

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Speaker 2: in the eighties and nine

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Speaker 2: nineties, we were conditioned in many ways to try and

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Speaker 2: think about what other people wanted at the cost of

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Speaker 2: what our own needs and desires were. And it became

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Speaker 2: very difficult to understand, to name those needs and desires.

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Speaker 2: And so I think I still am in a bit

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Speaker 2: of that head space and I have to really check

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Speaker 2: myself every single day

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Speaker 2: that because there's part of me when I make a

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Speaker 2: connection with someone you're right. I feel the glow of that.

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Speaker 2: I feel approved of. Yeah. Like I've

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Speaker 1: been chosen. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: exactly. And that really speaks, that really feeds that sort

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Speaker 2: of people pleasing. I want to be nice and liked

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Speaker 2: part of my conditioning. And also I love connection. I

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Speaker 2: should say that that's a wholly positive thing in my life.

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Speaker 2: I love talking to people and asking them questions and

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Speaker 2: getting to know them.

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Speaker 2: But you're right that I've had to become more aware

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Speaker 2: of where that can lead to. Because friendship as a

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Speaker 2: term is so broad, encompasses so much that it also

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Speaker 2: means it's diffuse and the person that I'm having a

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Speaker 2: connection with might have vastly different expectations of what friendship

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Speaker 2: is and what I'm able to offer. So I think

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Speaker 2: I've got a lot more honest with myself about the

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Speaker 2: capacity I have to pursue any new

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Speaker 2: friendship and hopefully a lot more honest with the other person.

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Speaker 2: And it doesn't have to be as clinical as saying,

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Speaker 2: by the way, I only have two hours a week

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Speaker 2: to give to this. It can literally just be setting

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Speaker 2: nonverbal boundaries where you're not instantly going to reply to

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Speaker 2: a text that they send you, you might leave it

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Speaker 2: 24 hours that in itself communicates something that is clear

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Speaker 2: and worth communicating at the outset of any sort of

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Speaker 2: platonic relationship.

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Speaker 2: And that's very kind of you to say that I

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Speaker 2: have grown in profile over the last few years, I

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Speaker 2: have struggled claiming that because I don't want to sound

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Speaker 2: like an egomaniac. No, you're famous now. I don't know

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Speaker 2: if I am. Well, thank you for saying that. I,

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Speaker 2: I don't, why do I struggle with it so much

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Speaker 2: I think because it feels like fame is for other people.

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Speaker 2: Famous for Cate Blanchett Fame. Fame is also something that

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Speaker 2: in my head is quite two dimensional. So you don't

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Speaker 2: really know the person, you have an image of them.

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Speaker 2: Whereas I feel that if anyone has ever engaged in

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Speaker 2: my work, listened to a podcast, read a book, you

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Speaker 2: do actually know me. That's the

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Speaker 1: problem, don't you think? Because yeah, with the paras social relationship,

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Speaker 1: like I don't think I'm free

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Speaker 1: with Sarah Jessica Parker even though I've watched hundreds of

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Speaker 1: hours of her on television. But with you, I feel

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Speaker 1: like instantly I can talk to you and that I

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Speaker 1: know you in a different way because I've listened to

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Speaker 1: your podcast and because of that paras social relationship because

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Speaker 1: podcasting in particular is a really intimate medium.

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Speaker 1: So that must be something to adjust to because people

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Speaker 1: not only would like to be friends with you, but

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Speaker 1: they think

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Speaker 2: they already are. Yeah, it is something to adjust to,

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Speaker 2: particularly for someone who is addicted to that adrenaline buzz

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Speaker 2: of friendship.

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Speaker 2: I think where I'm at with it is that I

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Speaker 2: now understand so much more the difference between a connection

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Speaker 2: that I make at a book signing or if someone

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Speaker 2: sends me a really beautiful Instagram DM or I get

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Speaker 2: forwarded an email because

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Speaker 2: something I've written about fertility has really helped someone through

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Speaker 2: their own journey. I now understand that that is a

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Speaker 2: beautiful gift in and of its own right? And although

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Speaker 2: I will try my best to reply to it, it

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00:15:47,155 --> 00:15:49,965
Speaker 2: doesn't have to be an ongoing relationship.

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Speaker 2: And I think increasingly because we're increasingly versed in social media,

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Speaker 2: I'm very lucky that a lot of my listeners and

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Speaker 2: readers and followers are understanding of that and I'm very

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Speaker 2: upfront about it and say, I'm really sorry, I can't

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Speaker 2: reply to everything, but I do read them and it

300
00:16:06,254 --> 00:16:09,335
Speaker 2: means so much to me and I ensure I think

301
00:16:09,345 --> 00:16:11,335
Speaker 2: there are a few things worse in this world than

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Speaker 2: feeling unseen or ignored. And

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00:16:14,984 --> 00:16:17,475
Speaker 2: part of my role I believe is to try and

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Speaker 2: make people feel seen. But that doesn't have to be

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00:16:20,694 --> 00:16:22,794
Speaker 2: a full blown friendship every single time.

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Speaker 2: And interestingly, if I can name drop for a second

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Speaker 2: because she's a total hero of mine. And I met

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00:16:28,744 --> 00:16:30,515
Speaker 2: her recently and I sat next to her at dinner,

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Speaker 2: Elizabeth Gilbert, who I absolutely love and adore. And we,

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Speaker 2: we were talking about this because can you imagine like

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Speaker 2: the amount of people including me, the amount of people

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Speaker 2: she has wanting her not only to be their life guru,

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Speaker 2: but their best friend

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Speaker 2: and she said she'd been taught this thing by a

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Speaker 2: spiritual teacher

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Speaker 2: about how, when you're having this sort of connected beautiful conversation,

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Speaker 2: this two way exchange of affection and ideas, how she

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Speaker 2: now says this thing in her head. She says, I

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Speaker 2: appreciate your magic, but I don't need to take it on.

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Speaker 2: I love that. I said to her as she told

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Speaker 2: me that I was like, are you doing it right now?

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Speaker 2: She was like, yes, yes. And I, I've started doing

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Speaker 2: that because actually

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Speaker 2: I think just telling yourself that in your head is

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Speaker 2: really helpful and it's not just for people who have

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Speaker 2: a profile, it's for anyone who struggles with boundaries. If you,

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Speaker 2: when you find yourself in a situation where you're at

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Speaker 2: risk of blurring a boundary and you're at risk of

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Speaker 2: saying yes to something you don't necessarily feel wholeheartedly is

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Speaker 2: a yes. If you just want to say in your head,

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Speaker 2: I appreciate what you're offering, but I can't take it

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Speaker 2: on right now. I respect it, but it's not part

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Speaker 2: of me. I find that's really helpful because it means

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Speaker 2: that I remind myself not to overpromise and under deliver.

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Speaker 1: Does it remind you a little bit of flirting? Like

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Speaker 1: I know that you're married and

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00:18:03,014 --> 00:18:06,164
Speaker 1: I am also, but there's a sort of a, like

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Speaker 1: a that comes from the chemistry of a new friendship,

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00:18:09,975 --> 00:18:12,715
Speaker 1: like the energy of that that can be really addictive

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00:18:12,725 --> 00:18:16,934
Speaker 1: because obviously you don't have that romantic flirtation with that person.

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Speaker 1: But I find that I often fall into this a lot. Like,

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Speaker 1: if I've got chemistry with someone

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, we're gonna be great friends and

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Speaker 1: then you just go, oh, no, I, I actually don't

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00:18:29,404 --> 00:18:30,485
Speaker 1: have time.

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Speaker 2: Yes. I think there are certain similarities but where it

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00:18:34,784 --> 00:18:41,534
Speaker 2: differs for me is that flirting is ultimately a game play.

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Speaker 2: And as someone who found herself a devil c single

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Speaker 2: in her late thirties and had to do a lot

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Speaker 2: of online dating and a lot of banter in the

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00:18:51,975 --> 00:18:56,505
Speaker 2: old messaging apps. I got so sick of it because

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Speaker 2: it felt like there was a dynamic at play always

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Speaker 2: that was about one party withholding and the other party

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00:19:04,050 --> 00:19:07,960
Speaker 2: wanting more. And so I think that sometimes is what

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00:19:07,970 --> 00:19:11,901
Speaker 2: flirting involves when there's a romantic dynamic at play. Whereas

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00:19:11,911 --> 00:19:16,631
Speaker 2: with a platonic connection, it is literally that feeling of,

357
00:19:17,011 --> 00:19:19,501
Speaker 2: I would love to know what you think about the

358
00:19:19,511 --> 00:19:22,810
Speaker 2: world and in hearing what you think about the world

359
00:19:22,820 --> 00:19:25,781
Speaker 2: increase my understanding of who we are. And

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00:19:25,866 --> 00:19:30,736
Speaker 2: I love that. I have innate curiosity. Some might call

361
00:19:30,746 --> 00:19:34,797
Speaker 2: it rabid nosiness. II. I really want to know, you know,

362
00:19:34,807 --> 00:19:37,596
Speaker 2: with you now, I just want to know everything about

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00:19:37,606 --> 00:19:40,287
Speaker 2: your son and the fact that you're a grandmother and

364
00:19:40,297 --> 00:19:42,356
Speaker 2: that your daughter-in-law gave you mag. But I want to

365
00:19:42,366 --> 00:19:44,287
Speaker 2: know where you grew up. And I don't think there's

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00:19:44,297 --> 00:19:47,616
Speaker 2: anything wrong with that at all. I think it's beautiful

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00:19:47,865 --> 00:19:51,505
Speaker 2: and I love it when I find someone who is

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00:19:51,514 --> 00:19:54,955
Speaker 2: equally as engaged in that idea. And it's partly why

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00:19:54,965 --> 00:19:58,715
Speaker 2: I love reality TV. Some of because it teaches me

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Speaker 2: more about how humans interact.

371
00:20:01,345 --> 00:20:05,674
Speaker 2: I think it's just that I've got a lot clearer

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00:20:05,855 --> 00:20:06,894
Speaker 2: about

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00:20:07,865 --> 00:20:12,325
Speaker 2: where that ends and where a true friendship starts. And

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00:20:12,335 --> 00:20:15,694
Speaker 2: the ones that now at the age of 44 I'm

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00:20:15,705 --> 00:20:18,635
Speaker 2: willing to invest precious time in

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00:20:19,135 --> 00:20:21,784
Speaker 1: your best friend is Emma. She's a therapist and you

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00:20:21,794 --> 00:20:24,755
Speaker 1: guys have a podcast together called Best Friend Therapy, which

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00:20:24,764 --> 00:20:27,235
Speaker 1: I also love. And I wanted to ask you about

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00:20:27,245 --> 00:20:30,365
Speaker 1: being best friends with a therapist

380
00:20:30,705 --> 00:20:32,965
Speaker 1: because the way you guys speak about each other is

381
00:20:32,975 --> 00:20:35,475
Speaker 1: so beautiful. You know, that she says that she doesn't

382
00:20:35,485 --> 00:20:37,064
Speaker 1: think of you as a friend. She thinks of you

383
00:20:37,075 --> 00:20:41,054
Speaker 1: as a life partner even though you both have romantic

384
00:20:41,064 --> 00:20:44,024
Speaker 1: life partners. But she's kind of like you're the person

385
00:20:44,034 --> 00:20:46,725
Speaker 1: that she does life alongside, which, uh, a lot of

386
00:20:46,735 --> 00:20:49,314
Speaker 1: women will hear that and think, oh, I would love

387
00:20:49,325 --> 00:20:53,495
Speaker 1: that because not everybody does have that kind of friend.

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00:20:53,835 --> 00:20:55,965
Speaker 1: But I want to ask you about the challenges of

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00:20:55,975 --> 00:21:00,115
Speaker 1: being best friends with a therapist because something that I've

390
00:21:00,125 --> 00:21:04,554
Speaker 1: noticed can be really damaging in friendships. And a couple

391
00:21:04,564 --> 00:21:07,164
Speaker 1: of friendships I've had, have nearly run off the road

392
00:21:07,174 --> 00:21:10,164
Speaker 1: at various times for me where one of us starts

393
00:21:10,174 --> 00:21:13,814
Speaker 1: playing therapist to the other and giving advice to the

394
00:21:13,825 --> 00:21:17,944
Speaker 1: other and it turns into, well, here's what you should do.

395
00:21:18,434 --> 00:21:21,005
Speaker 1: How do you avoid that when your best friend is

396
00:21:21,014 --> 00:21:22,715
Speaker 1: an actual therapist?

397
00:21:22,725 --> 00:21:24,835
Speaker 2: Oh, that's, I've never been asked that before. And that's

398
00:21:24,845 --> 00:21:28,875
Speaker 2: so interesting. I think she is a therapist. But to

399
00:21:28,885 --> 00:21:32,635
Speaker 2: my mind also the world's best therapist, she's so brilliant

400
00:21:32,644 --> 00:21:36,225
Speaker 2: at what she does that the problem comes about in

401
00:21:36,235 --> 00:21:38,924
Speaker 2: those sort of situations when, as you rightly say, your

402
00:21:38,934 --> 00:21:42,345
Speaker 2: friend is playing a therapist rather than actually being one.

403
00:21:42,784 --> 00:21:48,635
Speaker 2: And the best therapists don't proffer un, asked for advice.

404
00:21:48,644 --> 00:21:51,995
Speaker 2: And Emma is definitely one of those best therapists. Yeah.

405
00:21:52,325 --> 00:21:53,755
Speaker 2: So I,

406
00:21:54,215 --> 00:21:57,304
Speaker 2: I'm in a dynamic with her where I genuinely like

407
00:21:57,314 --> 00:22:00,644
Speaker 2: I seek her counsel. She's one of the two people

408
00:22:00,654 --> 00:22:04,144
Speaker 2: and she's probably the most important. She, it's Emma and

409
00:22:04,154 --> 00:22:07,404
Speaker 2: my husband that I will go to for advice if

410
00:22:07,414 --> 00:22:09,325
Speaker 2: I'm really struggling with something. If I'm not sure about

411
00:22:09,335 --> 00:22:10,825
Speaker 2: what decision to make, if I'm not sure how to

412
00:22:10,835 --> 00:22:14,794
Speaker 2: communicate it, I'm extremely conflict avoidant. They're really good at

413
00:22:14,804 --> 00:22:17,465
Speaker 2: helping me handle that. And I will always go and

414
00:22:17,475 --> 00:22:20,115
Speaker 2: ask her and then she will tell me what she

415
00:22:20,125 --> 00:22:23,255
Speaker 2: thinks and it's so unbelievably helpful, but it's always that

416
00:22:23,264 --> 00:22:24,005
Speaker 2: way around.

417
00:22:24,335 --> 00:22:28,345
Speaker 2: Emma would never therapize me unless I asked her to.

418
00:22:28,845 --> 00:22:32,345
Speaker 2: And I feel incredibly blessed by this best friendship because

419
00:22:32,355 --> 00:22:36,605
Speaker 2: there's such a confluence of her knowing me so well.

420
00:22:36,684 --> 00:22:40,985
Speaker 2: And also her having this extraordinary professional expertise

421
00:22:41,149 --> 00:22:44,269
Speaker 2: to help me through life challenges when and if I

422
00:22:44,279 --> 00:22:47,360
Speaker 2: need it. And if Emma does ever feel that she

423
00:22:47,370 --> 00:22:50,169
Speaker 2: needs to step in, if, for instance, she feels I'm

424
00:22:50,179 --> 00:22:53,519
Speaker 2: unsafe and that has happened in a past romantic relationship.

425
00:22:53,529 --> 00:22:56,039
Speaker 2: And she did feel that she had to intervene, which

426
00:22:56,049 --> 00:22:59,649
Speaker 2: was very uncharacteristic for her. She will always do it

427
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 2: as a question. So she would always say, have you

428
00:23:03,649 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 2: thought about this or how are you feeling about this?

429
00:23:06,409 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 2: Rather than coming in saying, I think you should leave

430
00:23:09,210 --> 00:23:10,260
Speaker 2: him because I think

431
00:23:10,505 --> 00:23:14,235
Speaker 2: it's toxic. And actually, she's taught me so much because

432
00:23:14,245 --> 00:23:16,394
Speaker 2: I've gone wrong with that in the past. And actually

433
00:23:16,404 --> 00:23:19,054
Speaker 2: the one time that Emma and I had a mild

434
00:23:19,064 --> 00:23:21,105
Speaker 2: falling out that neither of us ever want to speak

435
00:23:21,115 --> 00:23:24,075
Speaker 2: about ever again. It was in our twenties and she

436
00:23:24,085 --> 00:23:26,934
Speaker 2: was in a toxic relationship and I did do that

437
00:23:27,404 --> 00:23:32,034
Speaker 2: intervention where I was trying to therapize her by giving

438
00:23:32,044 --> 00:23:36,085
Speaker 2: her a statement of you should leave. And I don't

439
00:23:36,095 --> 00:23:39,455
Speaker 2: think that that's ever really appropriate. I think one of

440
00:23:39,465 --> 00:23:44,034
Speaker 2: the key facets of meaningful friendship is the ability to

441
00:23:44,044 --> 00:23:44,575
Speaker 2: listen

442
00:23:44,784 --> 00:23:50,294
Speaker 2: judgmentally and Emma utterly exemplifies that. Now, the only thing is,

443
00:23:50,304 --> 00:23:52,154
Speaker 2: and she won't mind me saying this because we've laughed

444
00:23:52,164 --> 00:23:57,034
Speaker 2: about it when your best friend or maybe you are

445
00:23:57,044 --> 00:23:59,764
Speaker 2: in a romantic relationship with someone who is training to

446
00:23:59,774 --> 00:24:02,075
Speaker 2: be a therapist. Now, when they're training,

447
00:24:02,774 --> 00:24:03,625
Speaker 2: you have to be

448
00:24:03,635 --> 00:24:05,644
Speaker 1: quite on they

449
00:24:05,654 --> 00:24:10,105
Speaker 2: need to practice and quite often. Emma, not really with me,

450
00:24:10,115 --> 00:24:12,225
Speaker 2: but with her husband, her husband would be like, oh,

451
00:24:12,235 --> 00:24:15,664
Speaker 2: I forgot to put chili in the lasagna and she'd

452
00:24:15,674 --> 00:24:17,095
Speaker 2: be like, no. Why do you think you did that?

453
00:24:17,105 --> 00:24:18,534
Speaker 2: Do you think it was your upbringing?

454
00:24:20,194 --> 00:24:22,715
Speaker 1: Do you think that's a cry for help? Not putting chili?

455
00:24:22,725 --> 00:24:24,115
Speaker 1: You trying to be helpless?

456
00:24:26,654 --> 00:24:30,485
Speaker 1: Amina? Art Tosa and her best friend. I've forgotten her

457
00:24:30,495 --> 00:24:31,414
Speaker 1: last name.

458
00:24:31,424 --> 00:24:33,575
Speaker 2: Um, oh,

459
00:24:33,715 --> 00:24:36,865
Speaker 1: yes, that's embarrassing. Anne Friedman. I should remember. It's the

460
00:24:36,875 --> 00:24:38,034
Speaker 1: same surname as me.

461
00:24:38,365 --> 00:24:41,274
Speaker 1: They wrote a book about friendship called Big Friendship and

462
00:24:41,284 --> 00:24:45,804
Speaker 1: she talks about friendship stretching. How there are times in

463
00:24:45,814 --> 00:24:50,194
Speaker 1: every friendship where you'll have to do small stretches. So

464
00:24:50,255 --> 00:24:54,615
Speaker 1: maybe it might be that one friend is getting married

465
00:24:54,625 --> 00:24:57,995
Speaker 1: and obsessed with her wedding or another friend moves into state,

466
00:24:58,314 --> 00:25:02,064
Speaker 1: but then there'll be like bigger stretches. So maybe one

467
00:25:02,075 --> 00:25:05,814
Speaker 1: friend will become a Trump supporter or they'll have a

468
00:25:05,825 --> 00:25:10,944
Speaker 1: baby or they experience something really difficult. She says that

469
00:25:10,955 --> 00:25:13,845
Speaker 1: stretching can have a positive impact in terms of the

470
00:25:13,855 --> 00:25:15,284
Speaker 1: resilience of your friendship.

471
00:25:15,684 --> 00:25:19,814
Speaker 1: But what happens when something just stretches too far? Can

472
00:25:19,825 --> 00:25:20,745
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about

473
00:25:20,755 --> 00:25:24,174
Speaker 2: Ella? Yes. I, I'm so glad you picked up on

474
00:25:24,184 --> 00:25:28,215
Speaker 2: the idea of stretches because it really helped me when

475
00:25:28,225 --> 00:25:31,034
Speaker 2: I read that book, Big Friendship, which I highly recommend

476
00:25:31,044 --> 00:25:34,615
Speaker 2: because they write it together. It's like written by a

477
00:25:34,625 --> 00:25:37,575
Speaker 2: dual friendship and I've never really read anything quite like it.

478
00:25:37,975 --> 00:25:39,595
Speaker 2: And you're so right that

479
00:25:39,855 --> 00:25:43,184
Speaker 2: there are some friendships that you do want to accommodate.

480
00:25:43,194 --> 00:25:45,505
Speaker 2: And so you will stretch your muscle. And as you say,

481
00:25:45,514 --> 00:25:48,684
Speaker 2: it can be positive because just like stretching your physical muscles,

482
00:25:48,825 --> 00:25:51,505
Speaker 2: you end up having more capacity because you're willing to

483
00:25:51,514 --> 00:25:54,444
Speaker 2: do that. But you're right that there are certain friendships

484
00:25:54,455 --> 00:25:56,564
Speaker 2: that ultimately

485
00:25:56,894 --> 00:25:59,264
Speaker 2: either of you will think. I don't know if it

486
00:25:59,274 --> 00:26:02,054
Speaker 2: is worth stretching. I feel like I'm stretching to the

487
00:26:02,064 --> 00:26:05,485
Speaker 2: point of my muscles snapping. And I feel that I'm

488
00:26:05,495 --> 00:26:07,355
Speaker 2: doing more of the stretching or they're doing more of

489
00:26:07,365 --> 00:26:09,995
Speaker 2: the stretching and it's not reciprocal anymore in the way

490
00:26:10,005 --> 00:26:11,164
Speaker 2: that it should be.

491
00:26:11,495 --> 00:26:13,585
Speaker 2: And that can be for any number of reasons. As

492
00:26:13,595 --> 00:26:17,625
Speaker 2: you identify, it can be one person having a baby

493
00:26:17,635 --> 00:26:20,715
Speaker 2: and the other person struggling in fertility. And I've had

494
00:26:20,725 --> 00:26:24,944
Speaker 2: that experience too or as was the case with my friend,

495
00:26:24,955 --> 00:26:28,664
Speaker 2: Ella finding yourself in a vastly different life phase and

496
00:26:28,674 --> 00:26:31,845
Speaker 2: moving geographically far away from each other.

497
00:26:32,205 --> 00:26:35,284
Speaker 2: And Ella is someone that I mentioned in the opening

498
00:26:35,294 --> 00:26:38,495
Speaker 2: chapter of the book because it was part of the

499
00:26:38,505 --> 00:26:42,444
Speaker 2: function of my reassessment of friendship during lockdown was that

500
00:26:42,455 --> 00:26:46,444
Speaker 2: I really evaluated the stretching that I was doing. And

501
00:26:46,455 --> 00:26:51,225
Speaker 2: whether all of the friendships in my life required or

502
00:26:51,235 --> 00:26:55,304
Speaker 2: could accommodate continued stretching to that level, and Ella was

503
00:26:55,314 --> 00:26:57,394
Speaker 2: one that couldn't

504
00:26:57,715 --> 00:27:00,975
Speaker 2: and it was for a number of reasons. It was

505
00:27:00,985 --> 00:27:03,325
Speaker 2: that and I had bonded

506
00:27:04,034 --> 00:27:08,225
Speaker 2: in our twenties when she was so much fun and

507
00:27:08,235 --> 00:27:11,044
Speaker 2: we would go out and have lots of fun, capital

508
00:27:11,054 --> 00:27:14,465
Speaker 2: letters together and we'd drink and we'd get up late

509
00:27:14,475 --> 00:27:16,615
Speaker 2: and we didn't have jobs that were that important at

510
00:27:16,625 --> 00:27:18,674
Speaker 2: the time. And it was, it was for a very

511
00:27:18,684 --> 00:27:23,914
Speaker 2: specific phase in our lives. And then as we grew

512
00:27:23,924 --> 00:27:27,314
Speaker 2: older I knew that I wanted to try for a

513
00:27:27,325 --> 00:27:30,325
Speaker 2: family and I started doing a lot of fertility treatment

514
00:27:30,335 --> 00:27:33,784
Speaker 2: and Ella had never wanted Children and she couldn't understand that.

515
00:27:34,245 --> 00:27:39,554
Speaker 2: And that's absolutely fine. But at the same time as

516
00:27:39,564 --> 00:27:43,434
Speaker 2: not being able to understand that or I felt to

517
00:27:43,444 --> 00:27:47,585
Speaker 2: make the kind of cognitive empathetic leap to try or

518
00:27:47,595 --> 00:27:49,375
Speaker 2: to ask me questions about it and to listen to

519
00:27:49,385 --> 00:27:52,914
Speaker 2: what I was experiencing, she began to feel, I think

520
00:27:52,924 --> 00:27:56,014
Speaker 2: quite resentful that I wasn't available for her in exactly

521
00:27:56,024 --> 00:27:58,855
Speaker 2: the same way that I had in the past as

522
00:27:58,865 --> 00:28:01,735
Speaker 2: the fun friend who could go out. And, and

523
00:28:02,174 --> 00:28:05,505
Speaker 2: I've already mentioned the fact that I'm extremely conflict avoidant.

524
00:28:05,514 --> 00:28:08,774
Speaker 2: And I think that makes me cowardly. And so for

525
00:28:08,784 --> 00:28:13,085
Speaker 2: a long time, I wasn't being honest about the friction

526
00:28:13,095 --> 00:28:16,625
Speaker 2: that I felt and I was trying to do that

527
00:28:16,635 --> 00:28:22,644
Speaker 2: thing of making communication slightly less frequent and, and during lockdown, clearly,

528
00:28:22,654 --> 00:28:26,184
Speaker 2: Ella was undergoing her own reevaluation and

529
00:28:26,524 --> 00:28:29,875
Speaker 2: she to her credit, I mean, there was a Facebook

530
00:28:29,885 --> 00:28:31,894
Speaker 2: message involved which I go into more detail in the

531
00:28:31,904 --> 00:28:34,424
Speaker 2: book that really, I thought, oh no, I don't think

532
00:28:34,434 --> 00:28:37,455
Speaker 2: there's any return from this, but she ended up sending

533
00:28:37,465 --> 00:28:39,255
Speaker 2: me a text saying I feel that there's a distance

534
00:28:39,264 --> 00:28:42,995
Speaker 2: between us. What's that? I'd really like to know. And

535
00:28:43,005 --> 00:28:46,154
Speaker 2: I honestly, I'm so grateful that she did that and

536
00:28:46,164 --> 00:28:48,694
Speaker 2: it was very brave of her because it meant that

537
00:28:48,705 --> 00:28:50,715
Speaker 2: I felt safe being

538
00:28:51,135 --> 00:28:55,245
Speaker 2: honest. But loving in my response and I replied saying,

539
00:28:55,255 --> 00:28:56,985
Speaker 2: I think you're right and I think that we're in

540
00:28:56,995 --> 00:29:01,085
Speaker 2: different life phases and it's nothing negative about who we

541
00:29:01,095 --> 00:29:05,304
Speaker 2: are as people. It's simply that there's too much stretching

542
00:29:05,314 --> 00:29:07,965
Speaker 2: involved to meet each other where we once did.

543
00:29:08,715 --> 00:29:13,505
Speaker 2: And in the end, we carried on the conversation by text.

544
00:29:13,514 --> 00:29:14,924
Speaker 2: And in the end, I said, you know, I wish

545
00:29:14,934 --> 00:29:17,835
Speaker 2: you nothing but love and all the happiness in the world.

546
00:29:18,095 --> 00:29:19,975
Speaker 2: But I think we're in different places right now and

547
00:29:19,985 --> 00:29:21,745
Speaker 2: I have my own stuff and I know that you

548
00:29:21,755 --> 00:29:25,524
Speaker 2: have yours and I send you love and she reciprocated

549
00:29:25,534 --> 00:29:28,054
Speaker 2: and it's one of the most evolved things that has

550
00:29:28,064 --> 00:29:32,424
Speaker 2: ever happened to me. And if I'm really honest, I actually,

551
00:29:32,434 --> 00:29:35,215
Speaker 2: as a result of that, it sounds odd because

552
00:29:35,575 --> 00:29:38,125
Speaker 2: Ella is no longer an active day to day friend

553
00:29:38,135 --> 00:29:40,825
Speaker 2: in my life. But I feel closer to her. I

554
00:29:40,835 --> 00:29:43,505
Speaker 2: feel that we know each other better

555
00:29:43,745 --> 00:29:46,855
Speaker 2: because we created the space where we could be honest

556
00:29:46,865 --> 00:29:51,154
Speaker 2: about that. And our friendship is in no way, a failure.

557
00:29:51,164 --> 00:29:54,485
Speaker 2: It's like we've protected the beautiful thing that it was

558
00:29:54,585 --> 00:29:56,635
Speaker 2: and that it might in the fullness of time become

559
00:29:56,644 --> 00:29:59,325
Speaker 2: again in a different phase of our life. And I'm

560
00:29:59,335 --> 00:30:01,975
Speaker 2: a huge advocate of the fact that a friendship ends

561
00:30:01,985 --> 00:30:04,835
Speaker 2: or moves into a different evolution does not mean that

562
00:30:04,845 --> 00:30:06,735
Speaker 2: you have failed that it's a negative

563
00:30:06,955 --> 00:30:10,985
Speaker 2: because my relationship with Ella and my memory of her

564
00:30:10,995 --> 00:30:13,144
Speaker 2: and the things that she taught me of life will

565
00:30:13,154 --> 00:30:17,054
Speaker 2: forever shape how I live. And that's my way of

566
00:30:17,064 --> 00:30:20,284
Speaker 2: still being an active dialogue with that friendship. And so

567
00:30:20,294 --> 00:30:23,335
Speaker 2: that was the first time that I've had a friendship

568
00:30:23,345 --> 00:30:27,304
Speaker 2: breakup where it felt that we were both grown up

569
00:30:27,314 --> 00:30:28,304
Speaker 2: enough and

570
00:30:29,034 --> 00:30:32,174
Speaker 2: evolved enough to be honest about it. And it was

571
00:30:32,184 --> 00:30:33,924
Speaker 2: a really positive experience.

572
00:30:34,184 --> 00:30:37,245
Speaker 1: It's almost like you broke up and stay friends like,

573
00:30:37,255 --> 00:30:40,615
Speaker 1: you know, that you still feel fondly towards, but it

574
00:30:40,625 --> 00:30:43,595
Speaker 1: doesn't always go that way. And you had a very

575
00:30:43,605 --> 00:30:46,194
Speaker 1: different experience with Becca,

576
00:30:46,644 --> 00:30:51,424
Speaker 1: which just feels mortifying. And I'm so so glad that

577
00:30:51,444 --> 00:30:54,944
Speaker 1: you wrote about it because often when we're ghosted by

578
00:30:54,955 --> 00:30:57,924
Speaker 1: a friend, we never find out why, which is its

579
00:30:57,934 --> 00:31:01,215
Speaker 1: own form of torture. But also can you explain what

580
00:31:01,225 --> 00:31:06,365
Speaker 1: happened and what you found out about why Becca ghosted

581
00:31:06,375 --> 00:31:07,375
Speaker 1: you in the end?

582
00:31:07,845 --> 00:31:11,654
Speaker 2: Yes. So Becca, this is now going back a few years.

583
00:31:11,664 --> 00:31:14,784
Speaker 2: So this was before Ella, before I was the highly

584
00:31:14,794 --> 00:31:19,424
Speaker 2: evolved person that I now am just joking. But it

585
00:31:19,434 --> 00:31:22,975
Speaker 2: was at a time when there was even less language

586
00:31:22,985 --> 00:31:27,404
Speaker 2: around friendship than now and friend aholic, as I mentioned

587
00:31:27,414 --> 00:31:29,575
Speaker 2: is part of an attempt to correct that so that

588
00:31:29,585 --> 00:31:31,745
Speaker 2: this doesn't ever need to happen again. But I was

589
00:31:31,755 --> 00:31:32,514
Speaker 2: ghosted

590
00:31:32,745 --> 00:31:36,115
Speaker 2: overnight by someone who I would have considered back then,

591
00:31:36,125 --> 00:31:38,215
Speaker 2: one of my three closest friends. And it was an

592
00:31:38,225 --> 00:31:41,934
Speaker 2: incredibly shocking thing to happen and it triggered a slow

593
00:31:41,944 --> 00:31:45,095
Speaker 2: motion grief. The likes of which I have never experienced

594
00:31:45,105 --> 00:31:48,654
Speaker 2: before or since it's a very specific kind of grief

595
00:31:48,664 --> 00:31:52,024
Speaker 2: because you're right that when you're ghosted, someone drops out

596
00:31:52,034 --> 00:31:54,934
Speaker 2: of your life, there is no explanation. And so you

597
00:31:54,944 --> 00:31:57,075
Speaker 2: are left with your own narrative.

598
00:31:57,444 --> 00:32:01,725
Speaker 2: And if you are someone who tends to veer towards

599
00:32:01,735 --> 00:32:04,855
Speaker 2: self criticism, who has lots of feelings of guilt, you

600
00:32:04,865 --> 00:32:08,075
Speaker 2: end up thinking you must have been an awful, horrible person.

601
00:32:08,085 --> 00:32:10,774
Speaker 2: And that's how I felt for a really long time.

602
00:32:11,264 --> 00:32:14,764
Speaker 2: And what happened with Becca is that it was one

603
00:32:14,774 --> 00:32:18,455
Speaker 2: of those friendships that I was too quick to fall into.

604
00:32:18,465 --> 00:32:21,564
Speaker 2: So it's taught me a lot in that respect. I

605
00:32:21,575 --> 00:32:24,314
Speaker 2: went through a phase in my thirties of going to

606
00:32:24,325 --> 00:32:31,105
Speaker 2: spin classes and enjoying the pumping music and the adrenaline instructors.

607
00:32:31,345 --> 00:32:33,875
Speaker 2: And I would always be skulking in the back row

608
00:32:33,885 --> 00:32:37,404
Speaker 2: because I never wanted anyone to see me sweat, absolute

609
00:32:37,414 --> 00:32:40,014
Speaker 2: buckets onto the floor and failed to keep up the

610
00:32:40,024 --> 00:32:40,894
Speaker 2: tap back rhythm.

611
00:32:41,144 --> 00:32:43,644
Speaker 2: But Becca came in one day and just, she was

612
00:32:43,654 --> 00:32:46,375
Speaker 2: one of the people who wore the most incredible sort

613
00:32:46,385 --> 00:32:51,625
Speaker 2: of leopard print two piece gym sets and she clipped

614
00:32:51,635 --> 00:32:54,014
Speaker 2: into the bike in the front row and could follow

615
00:32:54,024 --> 00:32:56,095
Speaker 2: everything that the instructor was telling her to do. And

616
00:32:56,105 --> 00:33:00,444
Speaker 2: she was just so impressive and charismatic. From the first

617
00:33:00,455 --> 00:33:04,085
Speaker 2: moment I laid eyes on her and we bonded after

618
00:33:04,095 --> 00:33:06,245
Speaker 2: that and we kind of met in the shower queue

619
00:33:06,255 --> 00:33:08,115
Speaker 2: afterwards and then that turned into

620
00:33:08,385 --> 00:33:10,904
Speaker 2: a coffee and then that turned into cocktails and then

621
00:33:10,914 --> 00:33:13,314
Speaker 2: we were having dinners and I was going through a

622
00:33:13,325 --> 00:33:17,255
Speaker 2: really difficult time in my personal life. So I had

623
00:33:17,264 --> 00:33:20,414
Speaker 2: been married and my first marriage was in the process

624
00:33:20,424 --> 00:33:22,514
Speaker 2: of imploding, although I didn't quite know it then.

625
00:33:22,944 --> 00:33:26,444
Speaker 2: And Becca at that time was also in quite an

626
00:33:26,455 --> 00:33:29,335
Speaker 2: unhappy place in her personal life. And so there was

627
00:33:29,345 --> 00:33:33,205
Speaker 2: an immediate sense of bonding there. And I think that

628
00:33:33,215 --> 00:33:37,635
Speaker 2: what happened is that we saw ourselves through a really

629
00:33:37,644 --> 00:33:42,255
Speaker 2: difficult phase where we felt that our sadness was matched

630
00:33:42,264 --> 00:33:45,255
Speaker 2: in each other's sadness. And so we became very close,

631
00:33:45,264 --> 00:33:47,154
Speaker 2: very quickly and

632
00:33:47,814 --> 00:33:51,965
Speaker 2: time moved on. And I got out of my first

633
00:33:51,975 --> 00:33:55,684
Speaker 2: marriage and I became single and I started dating and

634
00:33:55,694 --> 00:33:58,814
Speaker 2: I quit a job that hadn't been satisfying me and

635
00:33:58,995 --> 00:34:01,564
Speaker 2: things started going a little bit better professionally. And I

636
00:34:01,575 --> 00:34:04,745
Speaker 2: moved into my own rented flat around the corner by

637
00:34:04,755 --> 00:34:06,825
Speaker 2: the way from Becca who suggested that she was like,

638
00:34:06,835 --> 00:34:08,005
Speaker 2: we can hang out all the time

639
00:34:08,595 --> 00:34:14,225
Speaker 2: and the hangouts never materialized because I now realize that

640
00:34:14,235 --> 00:34:19,125
Speaker 2: my life was moving on and I still absolutely loved

641
00:34:19,135 --> 00:34:21,044
Speaker 2: Becker and had loads of space for her. But I

642
00:34:21,054 --> 00:34:25,865
Speaker 2: don't think that she was ready to move on from

643
00:34:25,875 --> 00:34:30,304
Speaker 2: her own sadness or couldn't. And therefore being close with

644
00:34:30,314 --> 00:34:32,865
Speaker 2: me was like holding a mirror up to something she

645
00:34:32,875 --> 00:34:36,064
Speaker 2: didn't want to see reflected. And I think that was

646
00:34:36,075 --> 00:34:38,425
Speaker 2: the start of this distance. So

647
00:34:38,743 --> 00:34:42,314
Speaker 2: I would suggest meeting up for dinner and she would say, oh,

648
00:34:42,324 --> 00:34:44,164
Speaker 2: can we make it a coffee instead? And it just

649
00:34:44,174 --> 00:34:47,523
Speaker 2: became briefer and briefer until I got to the stage

650
00:34:47,533 --> 00:34:50,973
Speaker 2: of thinking, I don't want to force her into something.

651
00:34:50,983 --> 00:34:52,713
Speaker 2: Maybe she's going through her own stuff and I should

652
00:34:52,723 --> 00:34:53,814
Speaker 2: give her space.

653
00:34:53,824 --> 00:34:54,634
Speaker 1: She's just not that

654
00:34:54,644 --> 00:34:58,183
Speaker 2: into me. Yeah, exactly. And I never heard from her again.

655
00:34:58,193 --> 00:35:00,433
Speaker 2: And months after

656
00:35:01,274 --> 00:35:03,885
Speaker 2: when I was still giving her space, I remember walking

657
00:35:03,895 --> 00:35:07,214
Speaker 2: out of the tube station where I lived and walking

658
00:35:07,224 --> 00:35:10,655
Speaker 2: up the road to my flat and Becca. So I

659
00:35:10,665 --> 00:35:14,125
Speaker 2: should just say I've anonymized every single person in this

660
00:35:14,135 --> 00:35:16,964
Speaker 2: book who belongs to my past. So

661
00:35:17,494 --> 00:35:20,464
Speaker 2: I was walking up the street and I saw Becca

662
00:35:20,474 --> 00:35:22,504
Speaker 2: on the other side of the road and I saw

663
00:35:22,514 --> 00:35:25,185
Speaker 2: her seeing me, you know, you know, when someone clocks

664
00:35:25,195 --> 00:35:28,385
Speaker 2: you and our eyes briefly met and then she just

665
00:35:28,395 --> 00:35:32,264
Speaker 2: turned away and carried on walking and it was so shocking.

666
00:35:32,274 --> 00:35:35,415
Speaker 2: I had been caught dead in the street. That was

667
00:35:35,425 --> 00:35:39,764
Speaker 2: really my final verdict. I was like, oh, ok, I

668
00:35:39,774 --> 00:35:42,635
Speaker 2: get it now. She does not want to be my

669
00:35:42,645 --> 00:35:45,585
Speaker 2: friend anymore. And that was a very difficult thing to

670
00:35:45,595 --> 00:35:46,625
Speaker 2: come to terms with

671
00:35:47,224 --> 00:35:50,454
Speaker 2: many, many months after that. I met up with another

672
00:35:50,464 --> 00:35:53,415
Speaker 2: former friend of hers who the same thing had happened to.

673
00:35:53,695 --> 00:35:57,635
Speaker 2: And she said that Becca had felt suffocated by my

674
00:35:57,645 --> 00:36:00,794
Speaker 2: closeness and I could have a lot of sympathy for

675
00:36:00,804 --> 00:36:04,075
Speaker 2: that looking back because actually, I did think Becca was amazing.

676
00:36:04,085 --> 00:36:04,204
Speaker 2: Do

677
00:36:04,214 --> 00:36:06,075
Speaker 1: you wanna die when you heard that?

678
00:36:06,085 --> 00:36:06,835
Speaker 2: Yes,

679
00:36:08,695 --> 00:36:10,984
Speaker 2: it's awful, isn't it? And you look back and I

680
00:36:10,994 --> 00:36:13,115
Speaker 2: looked back and I was like, I see where she

681
00:36:13,125 --> 00:36:14,385
Speaker 2: was coming from because

682
00:36:14,784 --> 00:36:18,974
Speaker 2: I respected her so much. And I did want her

683
00:36:18,984 --> 00:36:21,204
Speaker 2: advice and I did want to be like her and

684
00:36:21,214 --> 00:36:22,935
Speaker 2: I did want to know where she got her clothes

685
00:36:22,945 --> 00:36:25,064
Speaker 2: and she was really generous and she was like, oh,

686
00:36:25,075 --> 00:36:28,804
Speaker 2: you must go and see this osteopath and let me

687
00:36:28,814 --> 00:36:30,905
Speaker 2: take you shopping because these boots would suit you. And

688
00:36:30,915 --> 00:36:33,454
Speaker 2: she was like an older sister in so many ways

689
00:36:33,464 --> 00:36:37,204
Speaker 2: for me. And because I was at that time, insecure

690
00:36:37,214 --> 00:36:39,825
Speaker 2: and flailing in the rest of my life, I think

691
00:36:39,835 --> 00:36:41,375
Speaker 2: I probably latched on to that.

692
00:36:41,645 --> 00:36:45,085
Speaker 2: And so I could understand from both perspectives what had

693
00:36:45,095 --> 00:36:45,774
Speaker 2: happened

694
00:36:46,064 --> 00:36:48,964
Speaker 2: and that understanding has given me a lot of love

695
00:36:48,974 --> 00:36:52,024
Speaker 2: and fondness for the friendship that we had again, like

696
00:36:52,034 --> 00:36:54,865
Speaker 2: Ella and I've had to do that work myself because

697
00:36:54,875 --> 00:36:57,935
Speaker 2: I haven't had someone to speak with about it and

698
00:36:57,945 --> 00:37:01,464
Speaker 2: to work through it with. But I also understand that

699
00:37:01,474 --> 00:37:06,155
Speaker 2: sometimes friendships can be so difficult and so nuanced and

700
00:37:06,165 --> 00:37:08,994
Speaker 2: so complex and sometimes you can love someone so much

701
00:37:09,195 --> 00:37:13,054
Speaker 2: that you just can't communicate what it is because you

702
00:37:13,064 --> 00:37:14,454
Speaker 2: know that it's gonna hurt them.

703
00:37:14,984 --> 00:37:18,405
Speaker 2: And sometimes it feels like the path of least resistance

704
00:37:18,415 --> 00:37:21,865
Speaker 2: is just to drop out of their lives without a word.

705
00:37:21,964 --> 00:37:25,935
Speaker 2: And so I have great sympathy for what she must

706
00:37:25,945 --> 00:37:27,835
Speaker 2: have gone through. And

707
00:37:28,304 --> 00:37:32,665
Speaker 2: I have now moved on with love from what happened

708
00:37:32,675 --> 00:37:34,855
Speaker 2: to me. But I'm really glad I wrote that chapter

709
00:37:34,865 --> 00:37:37,365
Speaker 2: because I knew that if I was going to tell

710
00:37:37,375 --> 00:37:40,335
Speaker 2: the truth about friendship in this book, I also had

711
00:37:40,345 --> 00:37:42,835
Speaker 2: to tell the things that were really uncomfortable for me

712
00:37:42,845 --> 00:37:45,415
Speaker 2: that didn't paint me in a particularly good life. But

713
00:37:45,425 --> 00:37:48,724
Speaker 2: that were about my being honest about what this thing

714
00:37:48,734 --> 00:37:52,714
Speaker 2: is that we all value either because we have it

715
00:37:52,724 --> 00:37:54,635
Speaker 2: in our lives or because we don't and because we're

716
00:37:54,645 --> 00:37:57,135
Speaker 2: lonely and we want to understand more about it.

717
00:37:57,534 --> 00:38:01,284
Speaker 2: And writing that chapter was really difficult. But it was

718
00:38:01,294 --> 00:38:04,905
Speaker 2: also cathartic ultimately because I was able to put into

719
00:38:04,915 --> 00:38:07,405
Speaker 2: words how I felt about it. And it gave me

720
00:38:07,415 --> 00:38:09,165
Speaker 2: more of an insight into what I think was going

721
00:38:09,175 --> 00:38:11,915
Speaker 2: on in Becca's mind. But the amazing thing about it

722
00:38:11,925 --> 00:38:14,744
Speaker 2: has been the resonance it seems to have had with

723
00:38:14,754 --> 00:38:17,754
Speaker 2: readers because so many people have got in touch with

724
00:38:17,764 --> 00:38:20,504
Speaker 2: me to say the same thing happened to them.

725
00:38:20,764 --> 00:38:25,024
Speaker 2: And that's been really reassuring in one way that it

726
00:38:25,034 --> 00:38:29,935
Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily just me acting like an awful suffocating person

727
00:38:30,175 --> 00:38:32,714
Speaker 2: that it's happened to lots of people. And it's because

728
00:38:32,724 --> 00:38:33,974
Speaker 2: we don't have the language.

729
00:38:34,145 --> 00:38:37,064
Speaker 1: It's so common. Like you just come in too hot

730
00:38:37,075 --> 00:38:40,195
Speaker 1: and yeah, like she came in too hot as well

731
00:38:40,204 --> 00:38:43,534
Speaker 1: and then just went off reverse, which is what you've

732
00:38:43,544 --> 00:38:45,054
Speaker 1: also felt with other people.

733
00:38:45,435 --> 00:38:48,365
Speaker 1: So. Exactly. Yeah. One of the things I appreciate about

734
00:38:48,375 --> 00:38:50,845
Speaker 1: this book is that you say that we have so

735
00:38:50,855 --> 00:38:56,304
Speaker 1: much language and mythology and narrative around explaining romantic relationships,

736
00:38:56,425 --> 00:39:00,464
Speaker 1: but so little around friendships. You know, even the idea

737
00:39:00,474 --> 00:39:03,425
Speaker 1: that a friendship could end is like we expect our

738
00:39:03,435 --> 00:39:06,595
Speaker 1: romantic relationships to end mostly, or we're certainly not that

739
00:39:06,605 --> 00:39:10,385
Speaker 1: shocked when they do. We've all experienced that. But the

740
00:39:10,395 --> 00:39:14,925
Speaker 1: idea that friendship should last forever, that's almost our default.

741
00:39:15,355 --> 00:39:19,274
Speaker 1: And when they don't, it can be really confronting, can it?

742
00:39:19,454 --> 00:39:24,724
Speaker 2: Exactly that there is such an unrealistic expectation of platonic love.

743
00:39:24,734 --> 00:39:27,685
Speaker 2: It's the idea that if you sit next to someone

744
00:39:27,695 --> 00:39:31,175
Speaker 2: at primary school purely because you share the same first

745
00:39:31,185 --> 00:39:35,185
Speaker 2: letter of your surname and you become friends unless you

746
00:39:35,195 --> 00:39:39,125
Speaker 2: are friends and remain friends for the rest of your

747
00:39:39,135 --> 00:39:42,954
Speaker 2: joint lives. You have somehow failed. You are somehow a

748
00:39:42,964 --> 00:39:44,784
Speaker 2: quote unquote bad friend.

749
00:39:45,234 --> 00:39:48,105
Speaker 2: And you're absolutely right that we don't have that same

750
00:39:48,115 --> 00:39:53,405
Speaker 2: expectation of romantic love with romantic love. There is a belief,

751
00:39:53,415 --> 00:39:56,484
Speaker 2: an assumption that you might have a high school sweetheart.

752
00:39:56,494 --> 00:39:59,764
Speaker 2: But it's quite rare for that high school sweetheart to

753
00:39:59,774 --> 00:40:05,294
Speaker 2: turn into your lifelong monogamous partner that actually we expect

754
00:40:05,304 --> 00:40:09,064
Speaker 2: ourselves to date to try out relationships, to end them,

755
00:40:09,075 --> 00:40:11,425
Speaker 2: to see what happens. Even if we get married as

756
00:40:11,435 --> 00:40:13,585
Speaker 2: we know one in three marriages end in divorce.

757
00:40:13,885 --> 00:40:17,415
Speaker 2: And there is so much less moralizing unless someone has

758
00:40:17,425 --> 00:40:21,014
Speaker 2: behaved terribly badly. But there is generally less moralizing when

759
00:40:21,024 --> 00:40:25,145
Speaker 2: a romantic relationship ends. We understand that that is part

760
00:40:25,155 --> 00:40:29,034
Speaker 2: of growing apart is part of life's evolution.

761
00:40:29,405 --> 00:40:34,054
Speaker 2: The same thing we should also understand about friendships. There

762
00:40:34,064 --> 00:40:37,744
Speaker 2: are some friendships that will serve an amazing purpose for

763
00:40:37,754 --> 00:40:40,524
Speaker 2: one part of your life, but it doesn't mean that

764
00:40:40,534 --> 00:40:43,185
Speaker 2: you need to keep them going forever and ever and ever.

765
00:40:43,195 --> 00:40:47,954
Speaker 2: And actually, it's unsustainable because you're not creating space to

766
00:40:47,964 --> 00:40:51,105
Speaker 2: let new experiences or connections in and you're not creating

767
00:40:51,115 --> 00:40:53,865
Speaker 2: space to nurture the connections that are the really meaningful

768
00:40:53,875 --> 00:40:58,804
Speaker 2: ones that are governed by reciprocity and generosity. And

769
00:40:59,304 --> 00:41:03,835
Speaker 2: I am so passionate about making that clear and also

770
00:41:03,845 --> 00:41:06,695
Speaker 2: making it clear that with romantic love, there's a whole

771
00:41:06,704 --> 00:41:09,095
Speaker 2: set of social rituals that you can go through to

772
00:41:09,105 --> 00:41:13,615
Speaker 2: show what your relationship is to each other, to the

773
00:41:13,625 --> 00:41:18,395
Speaker 2: outside world. So you can have a wedding if you want.

774
00:41:18,415 --> 00:41:20,454
Speaker 2: You can sign a piece of paper that shows your

775
00:41:20,464 --> 00:41:23,494
Speaker 2: civil partners. You can move in together, buy a place

776
00:41:23,570 --> 00:41:27,700
Speaker 2: together, have kids together. Even dating the formula of dating,

777
00:41:27,710 --> 00:41:29,679
Speaker 2: you have a first date, which is like a chemistry check.

778
00:41:29,689 --> 00:41:32,220
Speaker 2: The second date, you might go for dinner, the third date,

779
00:41:32,230 --> 00:41:35,149
Speaker 2: you might discuss your shared ambitions and goals. We don't

780
00:41:35,159 --> 00:41:37,129
Speaker 2: have that for a friendship and we think it's a

781
00:41:37,139 --> 00:41:40,780
Speaker 2: bit cringe. And actually, it's so ironic because in a way,

782
00:41:40,790 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 2: we have this misguided romantic principle about friendship, which is

783
00:41:45,010 --> 00:41:46,820
Speaker 2: that you just connect and that's it then and you're

784
00:41:46,829 --> 00:41:47,919
Speaker 2: locked in forever

785
00:41:48,405 --> 00:41:51,224
Speaker 2: and we don't have it when we're looking for sort

786
00:41:51,234 --> 00:41:54,254
Speaker 2: of actual romantic partners. But I've been doing a number

787
00:41:54,264 --> 00:41:57,325
Speaker 2: of events around friend aholic here in the UK and

788
00:41:57,335 --> 00:42:01,214
Speaker 2: at one of them in bath, someone asked a question

789
00:42:01,224 --> 00:42:03,034
Speaker 2: and as part of the question said, you know, I

790
00:42:03,044 --> 00:42:05,554
Speaker 2: totally agree with you about romantic rituals. And

791
00:42:05,814 --> 00:42:09,185
Speaker 2: the day before I got married to my now husband,

792
00:42:09,405 --> 00:42:12,825
Speaker 2: I insisted on having a marriage to my best friend

793
00:42:12,835 --> 00:42:15,784
Speaker 2: where they went into the woods and they performed this,

794
00:42:16,014 --> 00:42:20,064
Speaker 2: I know this beautiful commitment ceremony, which is not legally binding.

795
00:42:20,075 --> 00:42:22,685
Speaker 2: But I just thought that that was so wonderful because

796
00:42:22,695 --> 00:42:24,994
Speaker 2: you talk about what you expect of each other and

797
00:42:25,004 --> 00:42:26,964
Speaker 2: what you can promise to each other. And I just,

798
00:42:27,185 --> 00:42:28,895
Speaker 2: I'm a huge advocate of that. You don't need to

799
00:42:28,905 --> 00:42:30,345
Speaker 2: go into the woods to do it, but just have

800
00:42:30,355 --> 00:42:31,974
Speaker 2: the conversation. I love

801
00:42:31,984 --> 00:42:33,244
Speaker 1: that. I love that.

802
00:42:36,115 --> 00:42:39,385
Speaker 1: Coming up. Elizabeth gives the best definition I think I've

803
00:42:39,395 --> 00:42:42,885
Speaker 1: ever heard of a toxic friendship. And she talks about

804
00:42:42,895 --> 00:42:47,744
Speaker 1: the very specific and often unspoken pain of a friendship, breakup.

805
00:42:47,845 --> 00:42:48,645
Speaker 1: Stick around.

806
00:42:52,365 --> 00:42:56,135
Speaker 1: You talk about frenemies also, which I'm so glad that

807
00:42:56,145 --> 00:42:58,304
Speaker 1: you have because you've put words around something that a

808
00:42:58,314 --> 00:43:00,774
Speaker 1: lot of people find very slippery.

809
00:43:01,105 --> 00:43:05,575
Speaker 1: You describe your relationship with one of your own frenemies.

810
00:43:05,585 --> 00:43:10,575
Speaker 1: A guy called Ali and you describe frenemies as friendships

811
00:43:10,585 --> 00:43:13,665
Speaker 1: that are so confusing. You never quite know what you're

812
00:43:13,675 --> 00:43:16,304
Speaker 1: gonna get. They're the ones guaranteed to tell you a

813
00:43:16,314 --> 00:43:20,345
Speaker 1: new haircut is interesting rather than giving a straightforward compliment.

814
00:43:20,355 --> 00:43:23,115
Speaker 1: They're the ones who are secretly threatened by your success

815
00:43:23,125 --> 00:43:23,524
Speaker 1: rather

816
00:43:23,615 --> 00:43:26,195
Speaker 1: than rejoicing in it. They're the people who don't want

817
00:43:26,204 --> 00:43:29,264
Speaker 1: to integrate you into their lives but will enjoy striking

818
00:43:29,274 --> 00:43:33,224
Speaker 1: up intimate acquaintances with your other friends that exclude you.

819
00:43:33,244 --> 00:43:36,345
Speaker 1: They will trigger feelings of uncertainty because they're capable of

820
00:43:36,355 --> 00:43:40,595
Speaker 1: both love and withdrawal. They offer backhanded compliments and passive

821
00:43:40,605 --> 00:43:45,365
Speaker 1: aggressive jabs and never seem entirely capable of being happy

822
00:43:45,375 --> 00:43:49,825
Speaker 1: for you or do you still have this in your life?

823
00:43:50,284 --> 00:43:55,774
Speaker 2: I do. But I have changed my response to it

824
00:43:55,784 --> 00:44:00,135
Speaker 2: and that's why I can still have individuals like that

825
00:44:00,145 --> 00:44:03,905
Speaker 2: in my life. So what I mean by that is

826
00:44:04,365 --> 00:44:07,085
Speaker 2: a lot of people can relate to this, but there

827
00:44:07,095 --> 00:44:10,514
Speaker 2: are some people and they're often very, very dear to

828
00:44:10,524 --> 00:44:14,685
Speaker 2: you who for whatever reason and very often it's to

829
00:44:14,695 --> 00:44:17,155
Speaker 2: do with what's going on in their lives

830
00:44:17,605 --> 00:44:23,754
Speaker 2: can never be uncomplicated, happy for someone else, but also

831
00:44:24,014 --> 00:44:29,615
Speaker 2: can never offer a consistent kind of love. And so

832
00:44:29,625 --> 00:44:31,794
Speaker 2: it is that sense of any time that you have

833
00:44:31,804 --> 00:44:34,754
Speaker 2: an interaction with them, you are not quite sure what

834
00:44:34,855 --> 00:44:38,435
Speaker 2: their reaction is going to be, how they're going to respond,

835
00:44:39,304 --> 00:44:43,425
Speaker 2: but you still love them because they also have amazing qualities.

836
00:44:43,435 --> 00:44:46,284
Speaker 2: And Ali, who I mentioned in the book has so

837
00:44:46,294 --> 00:44:49,034
Speaker 2: many amazing qualities. He can be so generous and you know,

838
00:44:49,044 --> 00:44:52,085
Speaker 2: he can send me flowers out of the blue and

839
00:44:52,095 --> 00:44:56,784
Speaker 2: just be so funny and charming to spend time with.

840
00:44:56,794 --> 00:45:01,445
Speaker 2: And at his worst, he can also be passive aggressive

841
00:45:01,454 --> 00:45:05,145
Speaker 2: and undermining. But what I realize about Ali is that

842
00:45:05,155 --> 00:45:07,445
Speaker 2: it comes from his own insecurity.

843
00:45:07,645 --> 00:45:09,905
Speaker 2: And actually I found a way of loving him for

844
00:45:09,915 --> 00:45:12,774
Speaker 2: that too. That's big of you. I mean, I'm making

845
00:45:12,784 --> 00:45:15,274
Speaker 2: myself sound like the hero here and I'm not by

846
00:45:15,284 --> 00:45:19,395
Speaker 2: any means. I think I realized that if I didn't

847
00:45:19,405 --> 00:45:21,895
Speaker 2: have Ali in my life, I would lose more than

848
00:45:21,905 --> 00:45:25,984
Speaker 2: I'm currently losing. And I had a conversation with my

849
00:45:25,994 --> 00:45:27,034
Speaker 2: husband about it

850
00:45:27,274 --> 00:45:30,685
Speaker 2: and he said, ok, you have three options here. You

851
00:45:30,695 --> 00:45:34,734
Speaker 2: either stop being friends with Ali or you stay being

852
00:45:34,744 --> 00:45:36,994
Speaker 2: friends and it's the situation as it is and you'll

853
00:45:37,004 --> 00:45:38,385
Speaker 2: go out have dinner with him and you'll come back

854
00:45:38,395 --> 00:45:41,195
Speaker 2: and you'll feel really drained and upset and you'll download

855
00:45:41,204 --> 00:45:45,875
Speaker 2: to me about it or you treat Ali as a

856
00:45:45,895 --> 00:45:48,464
Speaker 2: sort of charitable service

857
00:45:48,704 --> 00:45:51,064
Speaker 2: and what he meant by that was not that I'm

858
00:45:51,075 --> 00:45:54,145
Speaker 2: some lady bountiful, dispensing my tokens from on top of

859
00:45:54,155 --> 00:45:56,825
Speaker 2: my moral high horse. What he meant by that was.

860
00:45:57,075 --> 00:46:01,314
Speaker 2: Can you concentrate on what your friendship might be bringing

861
00:46:01,325 --> 00:46:06,675
Speaker 2: to Ali and exclusively try to focus your own energies

862
00:46:06,685 --> 00:46:09,504
Speaker 2: on the positive things that Allie delivers. And that's a

863
00:46:09,514 --> 00:46:12,585
Speaker 2: way of having a boundary in place that isn't cut

864
00:46:12,595 --> 00:46:15,814
Speaker 2: and dried where you've just decided I've made the decision,

865
00:46:16,014 --> 00:46:18,395
Speaker 2: I'll focus my energies here and not here.

866
00:46:18,655 --> 00:46:21,474
Speaker 2: And I feel actually Annie is getting a lot out

867
00:46:21,484 --> 00:46:25,095
Speaker 2: of this and therefore I want to do that for him.

868
00:46:25,474 --> 00:46:29,845
Speaker 2: So that's really helped in terms of re categorizing where

869
00:46:29,855 --> 00:46:33,575
Speaker 2: that friendship lies for me. And it's a bit like

870
00:46:33,585 --> 00:46:36,764
Speaker 2: Elizabeth Gilbert's magic cloak like because I go in with

871
00:46:36,774 --> 00:46:41,625
Speaker 2: that sense of I'm not going to give absolutely everything

872
00:46:41,635 --> 00:46:44,784
Speaker 2: to every single complaint that he's got to tell loads.

873
00:46:44,875 --> 00:46:47,405
Speaker 2: It makes me feel better about it.

874
00:46:47,500 --> 00:46:51,980
Speaker 2: However, there are also other people who were more extreme

875
00:46:51,990 --> 00:46:55,750
Speaker 2: than Ali in terms of their friendship, ambivalence who I

876
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,369
Speaker 2: no longer have in my life because they really did

877
00:46:59,379 --> 00:47:04,780
Speaker 2: sap my energy in an unhealthy way. And if anyone

878
00:47:04,790 --> 00:47:07,030
Speaker 2: is listening to this and thinking, oh, but it, you know,

879
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,290
Speaker 2: it's not that bad because sometimes they're nice.

880
00:47:09,605 --> 00:47:12,254
Speaker 2: There's been a fascinating piece of research done by the

881
00:47:12,264 --> 00:47:17,365
Speaker 2: University of Utah about ambivalent friendships ie frenemies where they

882
00:47:17,375 --> 00:47:20,595
Speaker 2: got a number of participants to wear blood pressure monitors

883
00:47:20,605 --> 00:47:23,675
Speaker 2: over the course of a few weeks and they measured

884
00:47:23,685 --> 00:47:27,075
Speaker 2: the blood pressure when those respondents had interactions with people,

885
00:47:27,085 --> 00:47:32,665
Speaker 2: they loved people, they actively hated and ambivalent friends where

886
00:47:32,675 --> 00:47:34,345
Speaker 2: they never really knew what they were going to get

887
00:47:34,355 --> 00:47:36,554
Speaker 2: from the other person. And they found that the blood

888
00:47:36,564 --> 00:47:38,554
Speaker 2: pressure was wholly unaffected

889
00:47:38,835 --> 00:47:40,974
Speaker 2: if you were having an interaction with someone you loved.

890
00:47:40,984 --> 00:47:43,564
Speaker 2: And sometimes it even went down. If you were having

891
00:47:43,575 --> 00:47:46,855
Speaker 2: an interaction with someone, you actively loathed. It also had

892
00:47:46,865 --> 00:47:50,764
Speaker 2: no impact on your blood pressure because you were certain

893
00:47:50,774 --> 00:47:52,895
Speaker 2: that you weren't going to like that person, they weren't

894
00:47:52,905 --> 00:47:55,744
Speaker 2: going to give you what you needed. The ambivalent friends,

895
00:47:55,754 --> 00:47:58,284
Speaker 2: they were the ones that caused a blood pressure spike

896
00:47:58,294 --> 00:48:02,115
Speaker 2: because you were constantly having to recalibrate how you were

897
00:48:02,244 --> 00:48:05,185
Speaker 2: according to what mood they were in any given day.

898
00:48:05,595 --> 00:48:09,185
Speaker 2: And the same researchers went on to do future studies

899
00:48:09,195 --> 00:48:14,845
Speaker 2: that showed that actually having too many ambivalent friendships negatively

900
00:48:14,855 --> 00:48:18,885
Speaker 2: affects the formation of your DNA. It is actively bad

901
00:48:18,895 --> 00:48:20,405
Speaker 2: for your physical health.

902
00:48:20,865 --> 00:48:23,764
Speaker 2: And again, I found that quite liberating, I was like, OK,

903
00:48:23,845 --> 00:48:27,625
Speaker 2: so that is a good reason for each individual to

904
00:48:27,635 --> 00:48:31,974
Speaker 2: work out how many of those sorts of relationships they

905
00:48:31,984 --> 00:48:35,974
Speaker 2: have capacity for in their lives because they are and

906
00:48:35,984 --> 00:48:37,314
Speaker 2: they can be bad for you.

907
00:48:37,575 --> 00:48:40,554
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that you spoke about that study because

908
00:48:40,564 --> 00:48:42,865
Speaker 1: I've got a friend like that and I wouldn't think

909
00:48:42,875 --> 00:48:45,445
Speaker 1: of her as a friend of me. But I like

910
00:48:45,454 --> 00:48:48,534
Speaker 1: this idea of an ambivalent friend. She's so close to

911
00:48:48,544 --> 00:48:51,145
Speaker 1: me and I adore her and I know she adores me,

912
00:48:51,234 --> 00:48:54,204
Speaker 1: but she'll always just like point out that I look

913
00:48:54,214 --> 00:48:56,754
Speaker 1: tired or that I've got a pimple

914
00:48:57,575 --> 00:49:02,064
Speaker 1: that I've got dark circles and it doesn't make me rageful,

915
00:49:02,075 --> 00:49:04,304
Speaker 1: but it would spike my blood pressure because I'm just

916
00:49:04,314 --> 00:49:06,754
Speaker 1: not ready for it. And I don't know how to

917
00:49:06,764 --> 00:49:09,615
Speaker 1: respond to it. I mean, when someone says you look

918
00:49:09,625 --> 00:49:13,345
Speaker 1: really tired, what are you meant to say? So it

919
00:49:13,355 --> 00:49:16,135
Speaker 1: catches you by surprise because you're in that vulnerable state

920
00:49:16,145 --> 00:49:17,484
Speaker 1: because you love this person

921
00:49:17,784 --> 00:49:18,744
Speaker 1: and then they just kind of

922
00:49:18,754 --> 00:49:21,564
Speaker 2: jab you. It's, I'm not saying that this is what

923
00:49:21,575 --> 00:49:24,945
Speaker 2: people should do at all. I once experimented and I

924
00:49:24,954 --> 00:49:26,605
Speaker 2: think a lot of people will relate to this in

925
00:49:26,615 --> 00:49:30,615
Speaker 2: terms of family members too. But I once experimented with

926
00:49:30,625 --> 00:49:33,814
Speaker 2: giving back exactly what I was getting in a single

927
00:49:33,825 --> 00:49:36,895
Speaker 2: interaction from an ambivalent person in my life. And they

928
00:49:36,905 --> 00:49:39,464
Speaker 2: would be saying, oh, you look tired, oh, silver boots. Oh,

929
00:49:39,474 --> 00:49:41,695
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'd wear silver boots. And I

930
00:49:41,704 --> 00:49:44,564
Speaker 2: experimented with just doing the same to them in that

931
00:49:44,575 --> 00:49:45,175
Speaker 2: moment

932
00:49:45,554 --> 00:49:48,224
Speaker 2: and they were wearing a purple top and I was like, oh, purple.

933
00:49:48,234 --> 00:49:50,294
Speaker 2: That's very brave of you to wear just to see

934
00:49:50,304 --> 00:49:53,504
Speaker 2: what would happen. Did it work? Did they? And they

935
00:49:53,514 --> 00:49:56,004
Speaker 2: didn't know they stopped, but they also didn't know how

936
00:49:56,014 --> 00:49:57,234
Speaker 2: to deal with it. They were like, well, I like

937
00:49:57,244 --> 00:50:00,415
Speaker 2: purple and I was like, and I like silver. It.

938
00:50:01,554 --> 00:50:04,405
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that's not an enlighten way to go

939
00:50:04,415 --> 00:50:06,595
Speaker 2: about life. But it was quite interesting to me to

940
00:50:06,605 --> 00:50:10,284
Speaker 2: see she didn't like it, this particular individual. And we

941
00:50:10,294 --> 00:50:12,645
Speaker 2: just moved on because I felt like I made my point.

942
00:50:13,024 --> 00:50:13,484
Speaker 2: I love

943
00:50:13,494 --> 00:50:14,605
Speaker 1: that so much.

944
00:50:16,425 --> 00:50:19,294
Speaker 1: I kept the tape running after that because I wanted

945
00:50:19,304 --> 00:50:22,054
Speaker 1: to talk to Elizabeth about all the ways her life

946
00:50:22,064 --> 00:50:25,175
Speaker 1: changed so dramatically in her forties, how she's dealt with

947
00:50:25,185 --> 00:50:28,554
Speaker 1: fame and success at the same time in her life

948
00:50:28,564 --> 00:50:32,454
Speaker 1: as she's been dealing with massive disappointment and pain around her.

949
00:50:32,464 --> 00:50:33,375
Speaker 1: Fertility is a

950
00:50:33,385 --> 00:50:38,454
Speaker 2: taste at moments. I felt sheer panic and I absolutely

951
00:50:38,464 --> 00:50:42,655
Speaker 2: did feel a great deal of failure and shame particularly

952
00:50:42,665 --> 00:50:44,075
Speaker 2: over my marriage ending.

953
00:50:44,294 --> 00:50:46,885
Speaker 2: But on the flip side of those spirals of panic,

954
00:50:46,895 --> 00:50:51,044
Speaker 2: there was also massive opportunity because for the first time

955
00:50:51,054 --> 00:50:55,254
Speaker 2: in my life, I was presented with an entirely blank canvas,

956
00:50:55,264 --> 00:50:57,655
Speaker 1: you can listen to that second part of our conversation

957
00:50:57,685 --> 00:51:00,774
Speaker 1: via the link in the show notes. This episode was

958
00:51:00,784 --> 00:51:04,244
Speaker 1: produced by Cassie Merritt. The executive producer of No Filter

959
00:51:04,254 --> 00:51:08,064
Speaker 1: is Eliza Ratliffe with sound production by Maddie Joan. I'm

960
00:51:08,075 --> 00:51:10,564
Speaker 1: Mia Friedman and I'll be in your news next week.